Geranium 3.0 vs. F-16. Is the Future Here?

What will be discussed in today's material is all done following the results of the "Twelve Day War" between Iran and Israel and the SVO. And even if both sides of the Middle East war consider themselves winners, this is not the point at all.

We will talk about the role of UAVs in the modern theater of military operations.

Today, an unmanned aerial vehicle is primarily a means of delivering various weapons to a target. Land, sea - it doesn't matter. Kamikaze UAVs have become widespread weapons, not inferior (and even superior) to winged or ballistic rocketsYes, 500 kg of explosives in a ballistic missile is not the same as 5-20 kg in drone, but it turned out that the UAV became a real competitor to missiles. Mainly due to its cost and simple design, which does not require such labor costs as a cruise missile.

It turns out that the 3M-14 “Caliber”, which costs $700, needs to be assembled and debugged, while the “Geranium”, which costs between $000 and $30, can be stamped out of scrap materials, like plastic bags.

Of course, a cruise or ballistic missile with a 500 kg warhead is much more serious than a drone, but a missile can be shot down - and that's it. UAVs can also be shot down, but they are much harder to detect, and their size is such that not every weapon is suitable for this.

The "Twelve Day War" between Iran and Israel showed the most interesting thing, something that was not in the SVO: the massive use of drones in conjunction with missiles "in assortment" and counteraction to them Defense, and the air defense is on par with the best in the world.

And there was a lot to see, from organizing combined attacks to fighting them with all available means.

If we believe the Israeli side, then out of more than 800 kamikaze drones of all types (Shahed, Ababil, Arash), a maximum of ten reached the target. That is, the role of UAVs turned out to be insignificant, the best task that was solved with the help of UAVs was to overload the Israeli air defense system once, and the financial structure - twice, since the Israeli aircraft aviation, which fought the drones, burned a simply staggering amount of fuel and used up trainloads of ammunition.

However, in Israel they believe that it was worth it.

The videos that can be viewed on the Israeli Internet regarding the actions of their aviation are interesting. This can be called a video tutorial on how to destroy drones. UAVs were shot down with aircraft cannons, destroyed with old Sidewinders and new small-sized AGR-20 APKWS-II, knocked off course with a jet stream (everyone understood who they spied on).

One could say "like a shooting gallery," but the targets were flying and exploding, which could have resulted in shrapnel damage or even destruction of Israeli aircraft.

In my previous materials on this topic, I have repeatedly said that an operator watching through a drone's cameras is no match for a fighter pilot. A different view, a different delay in reaction to events. This is the second big disadvantage of UAVs. And the first is that even a drone controlled by an operator, and not flying according to coordinates, is absolutely defenseless against a fighter pilot armed with a cannon and missiles.

What's more, a training two-seater piston airplane, capable of flying slightly faster than a UAV, and with a person in the second cabin holding an automatic shotgun, is a very dangerous enemy for a drone.

The method of using UAVs today is more or less the same: they gather in flocks and then go to the target area, then split up and attack. Not very pleasant for the enemy's air defense, but, as noted above, the devices are completely defenseless against aviation.

But let's imagine that in the depths of a flock of 20 drones, literally 1-2 devices carry air-to-air missiles. Yes, just like it was with the Ukrainian unmanned boat, which our Su-30 wanted to sink with cannon fire. For the plane, everything ended sadly, because the BEK had Stingers.

If the Ukrainians were able to install surface-to-air missiles on an unmanned boat, what could prevent them from similarly placing missiles under the belly of a drone?

And we will not talk about non-science fiction in the form of modern rockets, why? There is a more interesting option, of which, according to some data, there are still a lot in warehouses.

We are talking about the “Soviet Sidewinder” – the R-60M missile.

Yes, it is, to put it mildly, not new: it was adopted into service in 1977. It was mainly used on MiG aircraft (up to the 29th) as a missile for close maneuverable combat. Today it is completely outdated due to its frankly short range: 10-12 km, but for our purposes this is a completely normal distance.

The missile, by the way, is quite combat-ready: it has taken down more than one aircraft, including the F-14, the Israeli Kfir, the MiG-29, and the F-15D and F-111. Naturally, all this happened in the Middle East.

And a lot of these missiles were produced, more than 30 thousand, so several thousand could easily have ended up in warehouses.

The missile has a short range, but its dimensions (2 meters long) and weight (44 kg) are quite suitable for modern UAVs, the load of which is approximately 50 kg. The Komar seeker is infrared, with a cooled photoreceiver, with a Kolibri non-contact fuse (distance 5 meters) and tungsten rods as striking elements.

In general, nothing special, just an old missile, which, in theory, can easily be confused by modern IR traps.

However, if we are talking about "point-blank shooting", that is, a distance of 1-3 km, then there are options. In general, to fire a cannon, pilots are forced to approach even closer, which turned out to be a deadly matter for Ukrainian F-16 pilots, so launching such a missile into the front hemisphere of an approaching fighter can be fatal for it. Neither the pilot nor the automatics will have time to react. Yes, as happened with our Su-30, whose crew did not expect such a point-blank launch.

Now that the Gerani-3 with remote control, capable of transmitting images to operators via cameras, has entered service, it has become possible to use air-to-air missiles. Of course, with the availability of radar data on the approaching enemy, but this is not as difficult as it seems.

And the presence of such unmanned fighters in each group of "Geraniums" can greatly affect the UAV's ability to reach its target. Especially in places where the enemy's aviation feels safe.

Yes, there is no doubt that the probability of shooting down a modern aircraft with such a "clapper" is low, but it should not be ruled out. Were the Ukrainians able to launch a missile at our aircraft from a boat tossing on the waves? Our operators will also be able to send a missile that takes aim at an enemy aircraft. And with a certain lucky coincidence, this missile can poke its tungsten rods into the body of the same F-16.

Well, even the launch of a missile from a crowd of Geraniums heading towards the target is already a good psychological impact on the enemy. It is no secret that a missile heading towards an airplane, among other things, has a very strong effect on the pilot's nerves. And what is going on there will be a "big-big secret" for the pilot, he will only see the missile heading towards him, launched from a very short distance, and therefore very inconvenient to neutralize.

Ukrainian military pilots have already gotten used to the fact that the Gerans fly in groups of 15-25 machines. And basically, there are devices that fly according to coordinates, without remote control, which means that it is possible, having chosen a section of the route that is safe for the Ukrainian Air Force, where neither Russian aviation nor air defense systems operate, to attack the group and try to destroy it by all available means.

It is probably impossible to say that the Ukrainians have huge stockpiles of missiles. If this were the case, they would not be launching attacks at short distances with cannon fire. This is still a very complex way of defeating the enemy (probably the most complex of all available), but the cheapest: they definitely have enough shells, and as far as I know, they have not yet "visited" the "Precision Mechanics Plant" in the city of Kamenets-Podolsky.

But even when such a group is detected, the identification of the "aircraft hunter" will be a very big question, since it will be very difficult to detect a UAV with a missile suspended below. The radar image will not provide data, and visually, this will be exactly the range of a cannon attack. But after several launches "towards" the Ukrainian Armed Forces fighters of R-60M or R-60MK missiles, it will become clear that flying to a distance of confident opening fire from a cannon is mortally dangerous for the aircraft.

That is, a "security circle" with a diameter of 5-7 km will be formed around the Geranium group. Not bad. And to accomplish the task, the Ukrainian Armed Forces pilots will have to use full-fledged air-to-air missiles against the drones, even the same Sidewinders. It would be good if the European friends would throw Kyiv something from their old stocks, although it seems that the first model missiles are currently not available on the market.

In ancient times (50 years ago), the first models of the AIM-9A/B Sidewinder cost around $15. The modern AIM-9X Block II FY15 costs $600. This idea is generally good because Kyiv will once again get a good deal on huge sums. They will, of course, give them to him, and perhaps they will give him missiles, if, I repeat, they remain in Europe.

But even without that, the presence in a group of 20 Geraniums heading towards a target of at least two that, instead of the usual warhead, carry one air-to-air missile, can have a positive effect on the UAV’s flight to the target.

After all, Kyiv's supply of aircraft and pilots is not endless. And the loss of even one F-16 is very unpleasant. And if the price is a pittance, then even more so.

Comments

[Andy_nsk]

The idea is quite sound, and I hope that the Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex are doing something in this direction. Of the minuses, I will note that the R-60 missile is better launched into the rear hemisphere for confident capture of the IR seeker, and the F-16 is unlikely to expose its tail.

[Hole puncher]

Quote from Andy_nsk

The idea is quite sound.

The idea is stupid and unfeasible. The author does not understand that to guide a missile, an optical system and a system for sending commands for detection and launch are needed, and Geranium is an autonomous UAV.

[Revolver]

It seems like AI already works on smartphones, and smartphone cameras - aren't they optical systems? There's plenty of room to shove a smartphone into the Geranium, and then there's the Internet, although it's unlikely that there's even 404G in/on 4, let alone 5G.
But whether the R-60 works in the forward sphere is a question. It is not even funny for the "Geranium" to go into the tail of an F-16, although it may be able to target the exhaust of a helicopter or small aircraft.

[Hole puncher]

It seems like AI is already working on smartphones, although in/on 404 it’s unlikely that even 4G is available everywhere, let alone 5G

They will simply reduce the internet speed or simply turn it off temporarily during the raid, and then what?

Quote: Nagan

and smartphone cameras - aren't they optical systems?

This is not a system, but just a camera to take selfies and nearby landscapes. It simply cannot detect an airplane at a distance of 500 m, because it needs to scan 360 degrees in X and Y.

[Andy_nsk]

It simply won’t be able to detect an aircraft at a distance of 500 m, since it needs to scan 360 degrees in X and Y.

Not at all. It is enough to observe a small part of the rear hemisphere and wait until the plane goes into attack. Here it is 3,1415926!!!!!

[Rome]

AI can be placed on Gerana itself, it is present on Lancets. And a couple of normal cameras can probably also be installed for the front and rear hemispheres. AI is not a person, it can quite distinguish a silhouette.

But, Geraniums have a pusher propeller and therefore the P60 launch into the rear hemisphere is not possible. This means that when a target is detected from behind, I think that is where they are shot down, the UAV will have to make a turn maneuver, noticing this the fighter will have time to leave, but the helicopter is not a fact.

But, as stated in the article, the task is not to destroy enemy aircraft, but to complicate the methods of destroying Geraniums, and this task will be fully accomplished by independently maneuvering and armed P60 Geraniums. Because if the fighter does not react to the UAV maneuver, then it will have to react to a missile fired at its forehead!

And if such a Gerana does not hit an air target, then it can quite easily hit some insignificant ground target by detonating a missile warhead.

The idea as a whole is probably working and quite feasible. The R60 itself captures the target, the AI ​​only needs to activate the seeker when it detects the target and point the Geranium towards the target, and the R60, as I know, gives a signal that the target has been captured, which the AI ​​can use to launch. Then such a Geranium simply flies and trolls the enemy's air defense.

[Andy_nsk]

But, Geranium has a pusher propeller and therefore starting the P60 in the rear hemisphere is not possible.

It is possible to launch a missile at an angle back and up above the pusher propeller. However, the installed missile will then be visible to the pilot. Therefore, either all Geranis will have to be armed with missiles, or dummies will have to be installed. This will clearly discourage the "hunters". And use missiles with radio beam guidance instead of IR ones (see my post below).

[Rome]

I read that you propose using anti-aircraft missiles, but fighters and especially helicopters do not use radars or use them little, when attacking, UAVs shoot down NURS with radio fuses and guns, probably also missiles with a seeker, but I think this is unlikely, the UAV exhaust is finite, the IR seeker may not lock on, probably.

The article describes the idea of ​​not creating something, but using old missiles from warehouses, this is where the cheapness lies and production capacities do not need to be loaded, let them make new equipment.

[solar]

But, Geranium has a pusher propeller and therefore starting the P60 in the rear hemisphere is not possible.

Launching into the rear hemisphere is in any case associated with noticeable difficulties and is practically not used in real designs. For this, a guide of sufficient length is needed so that the rocket's speed relative to the ground (i.e. the aircraft's speed) is first reduced to zero, then the rocket is accelerated but with a different vector (in this case, the aircraft's speed vector is directed in the opposite direction, i.e. the aircraft's speed is subtracted from the rocket's speed (when launching forward, the rocket and aircraft speeds are added together)) and only then can it leave the guides. This was done on fighters for an experiment, but Gerani does not have the right dimensions for such long guides.

[skeptic]

If part of the "Geraniums" will be in the form of tubes, then the rocket can really become a "surprise". Only the screws of the "tubes", for the rockets of the rear hemisphere, should be placed in front.

[alexoff]

It simply won’t be able to detect an aircraft at a distance of 500 m, since it needs to scan 360 degrees in X and Y.

the camera from the mavic sees the plane 5-7 kilometers away. In addition, the geranium with the missile must be sent after the regular ones, so that when the signals from the ones flying ahead disappear, the combat system is activated. By the way, if the fighter uses long-range missiles to avoid our attack, then the attack can be considered to have already paid for itself - such missiles cost at least half a million bucks

[Revolver]

Quote: Puncher

They will simply reduce the internet speed or simply turn it off temporarily during the raid, and then what?

I'm not an expert on smartphones or AI, but it seems like the AI ​​that Samsung puts on its top models works on local capacities, and not just a front end to a remote server. Today's smartphones are more powerful than the supercomputers of the last century, and Deep Blue humiliated Kasparov back in 1997. So, a connection loss, in theory, will only deprive the drone's owners of the ability to observe its operation in real time, and, if necessary, tell the AI ​​what to do.

[Arzoo]

They will simply reduce the internet speed or simply turn it off temporarily during the raid, and then what?

We have AI interceptor drones with optical guidance. Already. It's just that the geraniums fly at night and they plan to intercept them at night too.

[Alexander Lebedev]

50/50 makes some sense. There is Igla, there is R73, you can hang Ataka or Vikhr. Catching F-16 is problematic, but probably also possible, but rather just scare it. However, in addition to this, there is a problem with enemy UAVs - drones will at least be cheaper for catching fleas than Ka-52 and Su30/35, they can definitely be hit with anything

[Andy_nsk]

It's quite feasible. Only the missile needs to be placed back, and not with an IR seeker, but a Shrike-type with radio beam guidance. An optical system and a radio signal receiver are needed. The UAV controller must recognize the F-16, lock it on for tracking and give the "Launch" command. Nothing too complicated, I say this as an electronics engineer.

[Hole puncher]

Only the missile needs to be placed back, and not with an IR seeker, but like the Shrike with radio beam guidance.

Such missiles are firstly quite large and Shahed will not be able to carry them. Such missiles have very low accuracy against ground targets, and you are suggesting to aim at a target moving in space.

[Andy_nsk]

The Shrike flew at 52 km at a decent speed and I think it would have been quite liftable for a Shahed. It's just a two-meter, not very thick pipe. I forgot about the weight in 40 years. Such a range is not needed here. It can be made more compact. I also disagree about the accuracy. I know that in Vietnam there was a case when it flew into the open door of the PV cockpit. Then they installed a door lock. More often, of course, it hit the antenna directly. If you make a detonable rod warhead on approach (by a sharp increase in the radio signal), the plane will definitely not seem like a little.
Installing an optical matrix and calculating the lead is also an elementary task these days.

[Hole puncher]

Quote from Andy_nsk

Shrike flew 52 km

He could fly, yes. But he had trouble hitting. And his target was motionless on the ground.

[Andy_nsk]

There was a different trick there. At the beginning of their use, it was a total disaster for the anti-aircraft gunners, but then our guys started to set up two decoy stations that transmitted radio pulses before the SNR started working. They took the hit. And they used a tactical trick if they managed to detect the launch of a Shrike: they diverted the beam to the side and turned off the transmitter. The effectiveness of the Shrikes dropped sharply. They mostly flew past. In the case of the F-16, the pilot won't have time to do anything in those couple of seconds, not even shit...

[Hole puncher]

Quote from Andy_nsk

Shrikes' effectiveness has dropped sharply

After Desert Storm, the Americans published a report on the use of the AGM-88 HARM, it performed poorly (many misses) and pilots preferred to use other guided ASPs. And the Harm is much more advanced than the Shrike.

[sergeyketonov]

Andrey. Good day! It is not possible to fire a Sidewinder or R-60 rocket backwards. Once, in 1980, at a physics olympiad, when I was still in school, I came across this problem.
The Sidewinder's own speed is Mach 2 (660 meters per second) plus the speed of the aircraft during a standard launch. If you launch the missile backwards, the entire aerodynamic scheme of the missile will work in reverse, and it is built according to the "duck" scheme. Given that during acceleration the engine operates with increasing thrust for the first 3 seconds, it grows to hundreds of kilograms at this time, while the rocket speed rapidly drops from the initial 200-250 meters per second to zero, and we must not forget that the scheme works "the other way around" - the rocket's rollers (destabilizers) will act as a wing, the gyroscope gives the command to pitch up, since the rocket's speed drops and it dives, but in fact the command is given to increase the dive angle, when the speed drops to 80-100 meters per second the rocket will spin in a flat corkscrew and all this with the engine running, in the best case it will fall with its nose stuck in the ground, in the worst case it will capture the infrared radiation of its own carrier's engine while rotating, since it is closest and will be aimed at it. In general, the idea is rotten; it was discussed back in the 1950s and by then it was concluded that nothing good would come of it.

[Andy_nsk]

With the IR seeker everything is obvious... I wrote in the first post... As for launching a missile backwards, you are right, it is very difficult, there is nothing to say about ready-made missiles, they are obviously no good. Unless we do something new. In a new development, it is possible to somehow bypass all these problems. I am too lazy to fantasize about this topic - even if we come up with an ideal preliminary design, no one will implement it.

[sergeyketonov]

Andrey. In principle, it is possible, but the missile should be launched forward, not backward, and then, according to the embedded algorithm, the missile turns on course (azimuth) at a 180-degree turn and flies back with the seeker already turned on to the pursuing target.

[solar]

the rocket turns on course (azimuth) at a 180 degree turn and flies back

This is exactly how modern all-aspect launch rockets fly, like the Python-5, for example. They perform a turn after launch, but before gaining speed, otherwise there will be large overloads during the turn. There were experimental launches backwards, for this they installed long guides on which the rocket first damped its speed relative to the ground to zero, then accelerated with a reverse vector and only then left the guides.

[sergeyketonov]

Sergey. Good evening! Yes, this zero speed is the main problem, to jump over it from negative accelerations to positive ones relative to the ground and gain a speed greater than zero, then you can release the rocket with the guide. But what is the length of this guide? Not too long? And without redesigning the rocket itself. We need a new engine with a very short OUT (running time) and a thrust of several tons.

[Grancer81]

At one time, the USSR decided that the ideas of the Order-bearer comrade Bekauri on tele-controlled systems were sabotage and comrade Bekauri and a group of comrades were sent to the pit... But now we are basically seeing the application of his ideas in life...
Therefore, nothing can be considered impossible.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Grencer81

But now we basically see the application of his idea in life.

Remote control has long been abandoned all over the world, and in those distant years it was simply imperfect and had no practical application despite the enormous costs. Everything has its time

[Grancer81]

So the projects of the Order bearer t. Bekauri were with wave telecontrol, that is, by radio communication. Of course, it was imperfect at that time, but who forbade further development?

[solar]

So the projects of the Order bearer t. Bekauri were with wave telecontrol, that is, by radio communication. Of course, it was imperfect at that time, but who forbade further development?

These ideas were quite in the spirit of that time. By the end of the war, both the Germans and the Americans had quite working models of radio-controlled weapons - anti-aircraft missiles, bombs and others. By 1945, radio-controlled UAVs were also being mass-produced, used for anti-aircraft training, for example, the Radioplane OQ-2 (the plant employed, among others, the later famous Marilyn Monroe).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioplane_OQ-2

[ycuce234-san]

It would have been possible to remotely control sea vessels then. Yes, the equipment was bulky and imperfect then, but: a large vessel is insensitive to the size and weight of control and communication equipment, and its reliability remained a critical factor. It would have been possible to intensify and automate the work of wartime sea convoys, reduce the loss of sailors. Early use had a cumulative effect, and now we would have much more advanced automation at our disposal.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Grencer81

At one time, the USSR decided that the ideas of the Order bearer, Comrade Bekauri, on tele-controlled systems were sabotage and Comrade Bekauri and a group of his comrades were sent to the pit...

So if comrade Bekauri had limited himself to ideas, everything would have been fine. The problem is that he promised time and again to translate them into hardware, wasted money and the time of valuable specialists, and the result was something inapplicable in a combat situation.
Wave control boats in the same Baltic Sea stood at the base for several weeks at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, after which the equipment was dismantled from them and the boats returned to the manned version.
The remotely controlled aircraft lost control and crashed during its first use.
Even Vakhmistrov's "Link" was more useful.

Quote: Grencer81

But now we are basically seeing the application of his idea in life...

And it's like with the AGS. Now it's a normal working unit. In Taubin's time it was a hellish clunker, a nightmare for a serial production technologist and a calculation.

[Aviator_]

that the ideas of the Order bearer, Mr. Bekauri, on tele-controlled systems are sabotage and Mr. Bekauri and a group of his comrades were sent to the pit...

At that level it was about the same as Kurchevsky's dynamo-reactive guns. With the same result (see the use of remote-controlled boats in 1943 in the Kerch Strait). A huge waste of money and a complete failure.

[Grancer81]

And then, at one of the meetings, Comrade Stalin declared that the baby had been thrown out with the bathwater.

[Aviator_]

And then, at one of the meetings, Comrade Stalin declared that the baby had been thrown out with the bathwater.

There was a niche for modified (not according to Kurchevsky's DRP scheme). But Kurchevsky installed his guns up to 152 mm caliber on absolutely everything, the result was the same everywhere. And anti-aircraft artillery was in the backseat, there were not enough funds for 25 and 37 mm calibers. Nowhere in the world did recoilless guns find wide application at that time.

[Grancer81]

It was not Kurchevsky who installed it, but rather comrade Tukhachevsky, who was also interested in universal artillery.

[Aviator_]

It was not Kurchevsky who set it up, but rather Comrade Tukhachevsky.

Tukhachevsky is the customer, but before that Kurchevsky convinced him of his wunderwaffe. Kurchevsky made and installed it. That same Tukhachevsky was actually Voroshilov's deputy and really wanted to undermine him, he tried hard, but it didn't work out.

[iommy]

I remind you that Yemeni Houthis shot down Saudi Apaches with missiles without launchers, simply by placing them on rocks and short-circuiting the wires

[Hole puncher]

Quote from iommy

I remind you that Yemeni Houthis shot down Saudi Apaches with missiles without launchers, simply by placing them on rocks and short-circuiting the wires

They shot them down where the helicopters themselves flew. And can you imagine the statistics on efficiency? Because one goal in the opponent's goal against their twenty in yours is also a "victory"

[Sanyav_72]

If you read the article more carefully, you will see that the author is writing about Geranium-3, with remote control.

[Machito]

Quote: Puncher

Quote from Andy_nsk

The idea is quite sound.

The idea is stupid and unfeasible. The author does not understand that to guide a missile, an optical system and a system for sending commands for detection and launch are needed, and Geranium is an autonomous UAV.

Bayraktar flying with a group of Geranium-3 would be more suitable here. It has a higher payload capacity, can install systems for detecting enemy aircraft, and can carry several missiles. It can protect itself from anti-aircraft and missile attacks with heat traps, and heat traps can also be installed on the Geraniums flying with it. It turns out to be a swarm of drones with a leading Bayraktar.

[Revolver]

Quote: Bearded

Bayraktar, flying with the Geranium-3 group, would be more suitable here.

Contact your friend Erdogan, maybe he will sell it as a friend. Although it seems that Bayraktar has a range of less than 300 km, and Gerani flies for 1000.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Exactly, we need a larger escort fighter than the Geranis themselves. But it is unlikely that the S-70, Grom or Altius that are being developed are suitable for this, we need something like the Forpost-Ru. And we need to use the Verba missile that is currently being installed on our helicopters.

[alexoff]

For the sake of one enemy fighter, you can even lift a finger. On disposable lancets, the optical system is even with a thermal imager, you can even borrow a starlink from our great friend Musk.

[Vladimir_2U]

It's too complicated, and the suspension of missiles here is not the simplest thing... It would be much simpler, and I think more effective, to develop and implement the Gerani "trap" algorithm.
The gist of it is that when a fighter is detected attacking from above/behind, and otherwise they do not attack the UAV, the drone sharply increases the angle of attack while “jumping” and reducing speed, and then detonates its considerable warhead.

[tlauicol]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It's too complicated, and the suspension of missiles here is not the simplest thing... It would be much simpler, and I think more effective, to develop and implement the Gerani "trap" algorithm.
The gist of it is that when a fighter is detected attacking from above/behind, and otherwise they do not attack the UAV, the drone sharply increases the angle of attack while “jumping” and reducing speed, and then detonates its considerable warhead.

OFBC.
Or a braking parachute and hovering with detonation. The radius of destruction is, of course, small, at the level of the Buk approximately

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Tlauicol

Or a braking parachute and a hover with an explosion.

This is a loss of altitude... But if the fighter will pass with a descent, then it is possible.

[tlauicol]

No more than the "Cobra" set, considering the speed of the fighter. Here the radius of the fragmentation is more important (it will pass in terms of altitude, but in terms of range...). There may not be enough for the F16, but the machine gunners/machine gunners on the Yaks and Mi will land quickly

[Vladimir_2U]

No, the parachute scheme is more complicated and less dynamic, and still, I think that the loss of altitude is not necessary, and a sharp climb is just right. But there may be a combination.

[tlauicol]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

No, the parachute scheme is more complicated and less dynamic, and still, I think that the loss of altitude is not necessary, and a sharp climb is just right. But there may be a combination.

What loss is there in two or three seconds? What is more important is sharp braking and approaching the F16. It will take too long to approach with the altitude gain. And then immediately slam on the brakes! Explosion!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Tlauicol

What loss is there in two or three seconds? What is more important is sharp braking and approaching the F16. It will take too long to approach with the altitude gain. And here immediately on the brakes!

Eh, no. Stopping the engine, pulling out the parachute, filling it, all this is a loss of altitude, albeit a small one. But the plane is higher, firstly, and secondly, in confusion, the pilots instinctively pull the stick.
So a clean parachute is useless.

[tlauicol]

If we are talking about a cannon attack, then it is nearby, not much higher and is approaching with a descent. Ukrainian pilots sometimes fly into the wreckage, pistol range.
Let them attack with a missile

[Vladimir_2U]

I figured it out, and taking into account the weak vertical maneuverability of the tailless aircraft, I think that the combination of pitching up and shooting off the brake parachute from the Gerani's nose will be optimal. Both in terms of braking and in terms of a sharp climb.

Quote: Tlauicol

Ukrainian pilots sometimes fly into the wreckage, at pistol range.

And also with shit-stained pants.

[alexoff]

And how is it more difficult to hang a MANPADS under the belly of a geranium and teach it to activate it under the same conditions? Since it can detect a fighter so easily?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote from alexoff

Since it can detect a fighter so easily?

Easy? I don't know. When he's already going into a cannon attack, then it's not that difficult, most likely with a wide-angle camera.

Quote from alexoff

How is it more difficult to hang a MANPADS under the belly of a geranium and teach it to activate it under the same conditions?

Oh, so you assume that writing a fairly simple action (three actions) in the flight control program for a certain signal in an already prepared system is comparable in complexity to installing a MANPADS?
The MANPADS must be installed against the flight, installed so that it does not interfere with the launch, installed so that the seeker does not interfere with the turbine exhaust or the propeller launch (depending on the engine), i.e. at an angle to the longitudinal axis. In principle, it is not difficult, but there are already problems with aerodynamics.
So these are still trifles. Because in order to launch a missile, a fighter must be detected significantly earlier than it goes on the attack, at least because MANPADS missiles have dead zones even for arming the fuse, not to mention capturing the target with the seeker. And it also takes time just for the MANPADS and missile to reach operating mode.
But that's not all, to capture a target, the seeker must aim at the target and hold it there for some time, and this can only be achieved by maneuvering. But for this, the target must be kept in the camera's field of view, and this is not a wide-angle camera, no, this is a full-fledged optical rotary head. And all this must be linked to each other - searching for a target, capturing a target in the sighting system, making a decision to arm the MANPADS, aiming the MANPADS at the target and launching. It turns out, as I wrote, the missile suspension is the simplest.
All this is possible and will work, but it is long, difficult and expensive.

So the way to complicate and increase the cost of intercepting Geranek, which, without false modesty, I came up with, with the help of Ivan (Tlaiukol), of course, is fundamentally simpler and cheaper than installing missiles on a disposable drone.

[alexoff]

That's when he's already going into a cannon attack, then it's not particularly difficult, most likely with a wide-angle camera.

the distances there must be considerable purely because of the considerable differences in speed. Well, if we are talking about ordinary geranium

Oh, so you assume that writing a fairly simple action (three actions) in the flight control program for a certain signal in an already prepared system is comparable in complexity to installing a MANPADS?

I don't think six or three actions in the 21st century are that difficult to program

at an angle to the longitudinal axis

What the hell is this for? Two pieces under the wings instead of one warhead, like all normal planes, what kind of wild tilts to the axis are these?

But that’s not all, in order to capture a target, the seeker must aim at the target and hold it there for some time, and this can only be achieved through maneuvering.

And do soldiers also aim the MANPADS only by maneuvering? Actually, the missile has a fairly wide viewing angle, it's not a sniper rifle

But to do this, the target needs to be kept in the camera's field of view, and this is not a wide-angle camera, no, this is a full-fledged optical rotating head.

yes, the kind they put on a lancet. Disposable. And they hammer it into targets much less valuable than a fighter
What you propose will be identified very quickly and the enemies will start provoking you to auto-detonate. While the very possibility of such a fighter being present in a shoal of geraniums will drive away all sorts of airplanes and helicopters for many kilometers and you will have to waste expensive missiles.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote from alexoff

the distances there must be considerable purely because of the considerable differences in speed. Well, if we are talking about ordinary geranium

About a kilometer. If we're talking about guns.

Quote from alexoff

I don't think six or three actions in the 21st century are that difficult to program

Do you seriously think that there are six steps between detecting an airplane and launching a missile?!

Quote from alexoff

What the hell is this for? Two pieces under the wings instead of one warhead, like all normal planes, what kind of wild tilts to the axis are these?

Well, a couple of pieces, okay, I won’t argue with that.

Quote from alexoff

And do soldiers also aim the MANPADS only by maneuvering? Actually, the missile has a fairly wide viewing angle, it's not a sniper rifle

In fact, the operator aims the MANPADS horizontally and vertically and holds the target until the homing head locks on - these are two degrees of freedom, actually, although the precision of a sniper rifle is not required. How will you aim the MANPADS at the geranium? Can you even imagine a MANPADS?

Quote from alexoff

yes, the kind they put on a lancet. Disposable. And they hammer it into targets much less valuable than a fighter

No, Lancets are launched after reconnaissance, and they are guided remotely. And the Lancet itself is guided, not something on it.

Quote from alexoff

What you propose will be identified very quickly and the enemies will begin to provoke you into auto-detonation.

This can only be done by getting closer. And close, if you haven't figured it out yet.

Quote from alexoff

While the very possibility of the presence of such a fighter in a school of geraniums will drive away all kinds of airplanes and helicopters from it for many kilometers and it will be necessary to waste expensive missiles.

But I won’t argue with that, it’s just that such a fighter would be very expensive, disposable, and not particularly effective, because MANPADS are not particularly effective in principle.

[alexoff]

About a kilometer. If we're talking about guns.

Well, how can you damage a plane by detonating a bomb? No way. Only some helicopter with a machine gun or a crop duster. And even then they will adapt quickly.

Do you seriously think that there are six steps between detecting an airplane and launching a missile?!

even 66! All this will fit perfectly on a flash drive the size of a fingernail, you just have to be generous with the software It seems that in our country, most of the money is usually stolen for special state needs, and then some C students use the remaining pennies to assemble a piece of code from free assets.

How will you aim the MANPADS at the geraniums?

Well, how? By turning the hull in the right direction. In general, I can hardly imagine a duel between a geranium and a fighter, where the first one can win not due to the stupidity of the pilot. Accordingly, our geranium should sneakily fly behind five ordinary geraniums and, when trying to shoot down its comrades, hit the engine of the helicopter or plane. The MANPADS has a guidance sector of 40 degrees or something like that, there is no need to aim very accurately. A more advanced method is to borrow technology from the RVV-MD, to which the fighter transmits the target coordinates and it can turn around after launch and fly back, towards the pursuer. But this, of course, is too much for me to ask from our gunsmiths, they have not made us very happy in recent years

No, Lancets are launched after reconnaissance, and they are guided remotely. And the Lancet itself is guided, not something on it.

and they put such a valuable thing on a lancet, and they don't go broke. And not all lancets reach their target.

This can only be done by getting closer. And close, if you haven't figured it out yet.

Well, they'll send a drone with a long black ribbon to get closer, the geranium will get scared and explode. Or they'll attack from the sun. In general, geraniums usually fly at night, so you'll often need to install a thermal imager

it's just that such a fighter would be very expensive, disposable, and not particularly effective, because MANPADS are not particularly effective in principle.

I think geranium + starlink + a couple of MANPADS + a couple of thermal imaging cameras twisted from Mavics will cost like ten geraniums. To knock down a fighter with some probability - will pay off a hundredfold! Since we have been pounding the airfield near Khmelnitsky with missiles for three years, there the cost is probably like a hundred thousand geraniums spent, if not more. And the benefit is unclear
Here's the question - how often do geraniums encounter aircraft and helicopters? I suspect that it's extremely rare, and most of the shortfalls are due to technical reasons, since they are mass-produced from cheap components. That's why I prefer a reusable MANPADS carrier, like an unmanned helicopter like the Bas-200, that would fly 100 km to the rear at a minimum altitude and try to catch enemy equipment.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote from alexoff

Well, how can you damage an airplane with a self-detonation? No way request Only some kind of helicopter with a machine gun or a crop duster. And even then they'll adapt quickly

If you haven't noticed, we're not talking about a self-detonation a kilometer away, but about the sufficiency of detecting a fighter a kilometer away from Gerani.
And I will remind you, or try to bring it home, if you still haven't understood. We are talking about sharp braking with a climb, i.e. maximum approach to the attacking fighter, and only then - detonation.

Quote from alexoff

even 66! All this will fit perfectly on a flash drive the size of a fingernail, you just have to be generous with the software

What a shame... Will the flash drive be responsible for searching, identifying, maneuvering, arming, guiding the MANPADS to the target and launching? Or will the optics system be linked to the computer and software responsible for this, and also linked to the MANPADS? The flash drive...
By the way, you will also need optics for interfacing with the MANPADS sight...

Quote from alexoff

Accordingly, our geranium should sneakily fly behind five ordinary geraniums and, when trying to shoot down its comrades, hit the engine of a helicopter or plane. The MANPADS has a targeting sector of 40 degrees, I think.

As I suspected, you know nothing about this, or some set of fictions far from reality. And the fact that they would be the first to attack an armed, separately flying, geranium, it seems, did not even occur to you.

Quote from alexoff

A more advanced method is to borrow technology from the RVV-MD, to which the fighter transmits target coordinates.

It's the best, both in terms of price and development time...

Quote from alexoff

and they put such a valuable thing on a lancet, and they don't go broke. And not all lancets reach their target.

Do you still imagine that Lancets are equipped with optics comparable to at least Orlan, not to mention SuperKAM or, even better, Magur? You are very much mistaken. Much simpler optics, unsuitable for circular search of air targets.

Quote from alexoff

Well, they'll send a drone with a long black ribbon to get closer, the geranium will get scared and explode.

What kind of drone is this that can catch up with the Geranium ribbon, even if it is a propeller one? And what kind of ribbon is this that is similar in size and approach speed to a fighter jet? And oncoming courses can/should be ignored.

Quote from alexoff

Or they attack from the direction of the sun.

They attack from behind, from behind/from above, starting the attack, not firing, from about a kilometer away. Because the target is too small.

Quote from alexoff

In general, geraniums usually fly at night, so you will often need to install a thermal imager

There is no need for a thermal imager with a kilometer-long detection range; infrared or even low-level ones are more than sufficient.

Quote from alexoff

I think geranium + starlink + a couple of MANPADS + a couple of thermal imaging cameras twisted from Mavics will be like ten geraniums at the price. To knock out a fighter with some probability - will pay off a hundredfold!

Mavics and Starlinks have already been put into use. Mavics do not provide the required detection probability, Starlinks will not be given to us for this purpose, no need for rosy fantasies.
But the method with approach and detonation is very cheap, because it does not require anything except a camera, a brake parachute and some additions to the existing software. And EVERY geranium can be modernized this way.

Quote from alexoff

That is why I am more impressed by a reusable carrier of MANPADS, like an unmanned helicopter like the Bas-200, so that it could fly 100 km to the rear at a minimum altitude and try to catch enemy equipment.

And it started so well, it's just a shame it's slipped into madness... This carrier will be blind, because we don't have starlinks, and its detection radius is small, it will be weak, because MANPADS are self-defense weapons, it will be expensive, because optics and hardware and software and resource engines are needed, and the funniest thing is, it will be an easy target for enemy MANPADS.
Oh yeah, you can forget about stealth on radars, because the external suspension of missiles dramatically increases the RCS.

[alexoff]

We are talking about sharp braking with a gain in altitude, i.e. maximum approach to the attacking fighter, and only then - detonation.

and how fast can a drone fly up at 100-150 km/h? Faster than a drone hunter? How easy will it be to develop a maneuver so that the geraniums commit suicide without even using ammo?

And the flash drive will be responsible for searching, identifying, maneuvering, accepting for arming, guiding the MANPADS to the target and launching?

for maneuvering there is, I think, something that makes the geranium dive. Are the arming and launching algorithms very complex? More complex than the warhead detonation signal?

By the way, you will also need optics for interfacing with the MANPADS sight...

and how does the "igla-v" work on helicopters? There probably also optics for interfacing with the MANPADS sight?

It's the best, both in terms of price and development time...

the highest technologies! In general, our military-industrial complex, which is factory-based, now seems to be developing everything. Geraniums are probably being developed by some kind of highest approval, Chemezov would have been developing them for at least 10 years.

What kind of drone is this that can catch up with Geranium's tape, even if it's a screw one?

and there's the one that was developed specifically to intercept geraniums. They'll increase its size. And they'll make jet engines for it

They attack from behind, from behind/from above, starting the attack, not firing, from about a kilometer away.

or from the side, from a helicopter

Maviks do not provide the required detection probability

and with the kilometer it gives everything

they won't give us starlinks for this

And for what purposes do they order them in the UAE? For more important ones? Like - you can't waste missiles on bridges, there are more important goals that are secret?

But the method with approaching and detonating is very cheap, because in addition to the camera, braking parachute and some additions to the existing software

and mostly useless, since soon the Americans will bring in Nursas modified to shoot down Geraniums and will stop shooting them down with guns. If they shot them down at all

And it seems that it never even occurred to you that they would attack the armed, separately flying Geranium first.

well yes, which is obviously that one, the last one, and the rest are flying in a link, wing to wing, and from the plane from above you can see everything, that there is a MANPADS under the wing

This carrier will be blind because we don't have starlinks.

We don't have starlinks in principle, all drones fly on wires or bring a flash drive with recordings. Because without starlinks we have no radio communication. Eagles only transmit for a couple of kilometers and that's it, but they can't fly anywhere else.

will be expensive because you need optics, hardware and software

and for a drone you need the cheapest hardware possible, you can't shoot from supercams?

resource engines

and taking similarly powerful extremely cheap low-resource engines with geranium is unfair

he will be an easy target for enemy MANPADS

which the enemy obviously has under every bush

Oh yeah, you can forget about being invisible on radars

and I thought it was low visibility purely because of the low flight altitude, but it turns out that the geraniums are stealth with their propellers!

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote from alexoff

and how fast can a drone fly at 100-150 km/h? Faster than a drone hunter?

What prevents you from understanding that Gerani needs to brake sharply enough for the interceptor to run into her? And that this is achieved by a braking parachute and a sharp pitch-up? Genius or religion?

Quote from alexoff

How easy will it be to develop a maneuver so that the geraniums commit suicide without even using up ammo?

It's obvious to launch a drone with a ribbon, especially against jets...

Quote from alexoff

for maneuvering there is, I think, something that makes the geranium dive. Are the arming and launching algorithms very complex? More complex than the warhead detonation signal?

Are you not aware that the route and maneuvers in the geranium are planned in advance, and only if possible, are changed in flight? How gifted do you have to be to not understand the difference between a pre-planned maneuver along the route, and maneuvering to launch a missile at a target... Although what to expect from a person who imagined that MANPADS do not need to be guided...

Quote from alexoff

and how does the "igla-v" work on helicopters? There probably also optics for interfacing with the MANPADS sight?

There are optics of the helicopter's sighting system, which is coupled with a SPECIAL modification of the PU. And the operators aim at the target, and maneuver the entire helicopter, and the decision to launch is also made by the operator or pilot, I don't know the nuances. But just imagining that an infantry MANPADS was stuck on a helicopter is a sign of undoubted talent.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

A more advanced method is to borrow technology from the RVV-MD, to which the fighter transmits target coordinates.
It's the best, both in terms of price and development time...

Quote from alexoff

the highest technology!

Actually, yes. And they won't put them on a disposable drone, at least because WHO will transfer them to this drone? Have you even thought about that?

Quote from alexoff

or from the side, from a helicopter

And how is it from the side? It didn't work even against the first geranium, unless of course you imagine that a helicopter can fall sideways at 150-180 km/h.

Quote from alexoff

and with the kilometer it gives everything

You don't see the difference between detecting a jet fighter from one kilometer and from at least 3-4? However... You are even more gifted than I thought.

Quote from alexoff

And for what purposes do they order them in the UAE? For more important ones? Like - you can't waste missiles on bridges, there are more important goals that are secret?

As I understand it, you judge closed high-speed communications in the Russian Army based on reports from 2020-2021?

Quote from alexoff

and mostly useless, since soon the Americans will bring in Nursas modified to shoot down Geraniums and will stop shooting them down with guns. If they shot them down at all

That would be a useful "fighter" with MANPADS...

Quote from alexoff

well yes, which is obviously that one, the last one, and the rest are flying in a link, wing to wing, and from the plane from above you can see everything, that there is a MANPADS under the wing

So you yourself wrote that Geran with MANPADS will fly BEHIND covering the group, and now you're laughing at this? You don't really understand your own writing...

Quote from alexoff

Accordingly, our geranium must sneakily fly after five ordinary geraniums and, when trying to shoot down its comrades, hit the engine of a helicopter or airplane.

Quote from alexoff

We don't have starlinks in principle, all drones fly on wires or bring a flash drive with recordings. Because without starlinks we have no radio communication.

Imagine, with the presence of electronic warfare, this is often the case. But this is not the point, but the fact that a low-flying aircraft itself sees worse, especially if it is also equipped with weak optics. Well, the funny thing is that at low altitudes the communication is also worse and the further it goes, the worse it gets... You don't understand simple things.

Quote from alexoff

he will be an easy target for enemy MANPADS
which the enemy obviously has under every bush

There are none at all, where from. Obviously because the khikhlys don't have MANPADS, and our aviation switched to UMPK tens of kilometers from LBS and NURS with pitching from a very low altitude. Hand-faced...

Quote from alexoff

and for a drone you need the cheapest hardware possible, you can't shoot from supercams?

Of course, the most common application is for expensive optical stations, to stick them on disposable drones. Yes, the khikhly will only say thank you.

Quote from alexoff

and taking similarly powerful extremely cheap low-resource engines with geranium is unfair

It is possible to change it every flight, I think it is not too stressful.

Quote from alexoff

and I thought it was low visibility purely because of the low flight altitude, but it turns out that the geraniums are stealth with their propellers!

Yes, you have come up with a lot of stupid things, a couple more, a couple less. The plastic propeller is obviously the most noticeable part on the radar... As is the small plastic/wooden aircraft.

[alexoff]

What's stopping you from understanding that Gerani only needs to brake sharply enough for the interceptor to run into her?

What's stopping you from understanding that there will be a quick counteraction? Have you seen many shots of fighters shooting down geraniums with a cannon?

It's obvious to launch a drone with a ribbon, especially against jets...

and of course there are no jet drones

Are you not aware that the route and maneuvers in Geranium are planned in advance, and only if possible, are changed in flight?

How gifted do you have to be to say that a pre-planned maneuver is simple, but a maneuver on radio command is suddenly complicated and everything needs to be redone?

Although what to expect from a person who imagined that MANPADS do not need to be aimed...

I actually wrote that MANPADS should be launched vertically downwards, why are you so petty?

But just imagining that a helicopter has an infantry MANPADS attached to it is a sign of undoubted talent.

and what version do you suggest for the geranium, with a trigger or a helicopter one? They might as well have written that they need to develop a mechanical hand so that it presses where it needs to

And they won't put them on a disposable drone, if only because WHO will transfer them to this drone? Have you even thought about that?

I wrote specifically for the especially gifted that no one will scratch

And what is this on the side?

Yes, for example, they fire from a machine gun from the Mi-8 from the hands. And the Mi-24 can fire from several different courses. Have you even seen geranium hunting on enemy channels or are you just talking nonsense?

As I understand it, you judge closed high-speed communications in the Russian Army based on reports from 2020-2021?

that is, I write about starlink, and you about old reports. Are you all right? Or maybe I'm making fun of an old man here?

Geranium with MANPADS will fly BEHIND covering the group, and now you're laughing at this? You don't really understand your own piss...

Of course I understand, and you? Will the fighter fly at an even lower altitude?

Well, the funny thing is that at low altitudes the connection is also worse and the further you go, the worse and worse it gets... You don’t understand simple things.

satellite communication? If you fly into the gorge?

Apparently because the khikhlys don't have MANPADS, our aviation switched to UMPK tens of kilometers from LBS and NURS with pitching up from a very low altitude. Hand-faced...

so it's only because of MANPADS? And there were MANPADS in Syria too, ours just bombed from 6-7 km and didn't bother

Of course, the most common application for expensive optical stations is to stick them onto disposable drones.

yes, on mavics it's quite normal to install optics for half a million, you're just imagining that it's necessary like on bayraktar

The plastic propeller is obviously the most visible part on the radar... As is the small plastic/wooden aircraft.

in general it is visible normally, as are the rest of the rather large geraniums

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote from alexoff

What's stopping you from understanding that there will be a quick counteraction? Have you seen many shots of fighters shooting down geraniums with a cannon?

I understand that you didn't manage to read the article...

Quote from alexoff

and of course there are no jet drones

Only it will cost as much as the same Geranium. And it will be a pain to pull the ribbon. And you can teach it to distinguish the ribbon from the fighter.

Quote from alexoff

How gifted do you have to be to say that a pre-planned maneuver is simple, but a maneuver on radio command is suddenly complicated and everything needs to be redone?

Do you really understand what you're writing? Because at a distance of a couple of hundred km, the radio command won't work, everything is on hardware and software.

Quote from alexoff

I actually wrote that MANPADS should be launched vertically downwards, why are you so petty?

If you had written such nonsense, I would have noted it, but you wrote such nonsense:

Quote from alexoff

And do soldiers also aim the MANPADS only by maneuvering? Actually, the missile has a fairly wide viewing angle, it's not a sniper rifle

Quote from alexoff

and what version do you suggest for the geranium, with a trigger or a helicopter one? They might as well have written that they need to develop a mechanical hand so that it presses where it needs to

Well, I'm not as gifted as you are to suggest such things. But you, from the height of your giftedness, what kind of sight do you propose to install on the Gerani along with helicopter MANPADS?

Quote from alexoff

I wrote specifically for the especially gifted that no one will scratch

Oh, your talent has reached a new level, to suggest obvious nonsense, but then write that no one will itch. Of course no one will itch, that's nonsense. Transferring data, taken from who knows where, to a disposable drone with a self-defense weapon.

Quote from alexoff

Yes, for example, they fire from a machine gun from the Mi-8 from the hands. And the Mi-24 can fire from several different courses. Have you even seen geranium hunting on enemy channels or are you just talking nonsense?

In my opinion, you are talking nonsense, not specifically now, but in general. Because the possibility of self-detonation will sharply cool the heads of those who will shoot from a machine gun from aboard, from a couple of hundred meters, no more, and the puny Mi-24s, they are cannon-powered, in the overwhelming majority, and are not equipped with a rotating turret.
And your talent does not allow you to understand that helicopters cannot intercept Gerani outside their patrol area, only fighters can do that.

Quote from alexoff

that is, I write about starlink, and you about old reports. Are you all right? Or maybe I'm making fun of an old man here?

So you are so gifted that you do not understand that Starlinks in our army are used strictly as a means of high-speed closed communication on the ground, because we do not have our own? It seems useless to you to write that they can be used literally near the LBS, and simple antennas are not installed on mobile platforms, and Starlink will not allow such mobile antennas to be used on our side. Because you are so alternatively gifted that it is useless.

Quote from alexoff

Of course I understand, and you? Will the fighter fly at an even lower altitude?

Should I poke you in your pussy again?

Quote from alexoff

Accordingly, our geranium must sneakily fly after five ordinary geraniums and, when trying to shoot down its comrades, hit the engine of a helicopter or airplane.

And this means, if you don't understand your own writing, that the defender flies behind the formation, and accordingly is destroyed first, and since there is no stealth, in your opinion, or there won't be, in my opinion, then the missile won't miss, and then the guns. But such a simple logical construction is beyond your powers...

Quote from alexoff

yes, on mavics it's quite normal to install optics for half a million, you're just imagining that it's necessary like on bayraktar

You don't understand a damn thing about this. And you're still making up my mind for me, although you don't have anything to do with it... The optics from your Mavic don't provide a 360*180 circular search at a reasonable speed, it will require pairing with the sighting optics of a "helicopter MANPADS" or software as a sight, which is hardly feasible, and at a minimum you'll also need a board/computer for maneuvering, targeting, preparation for launch, and launch. Because only someone very gifted in alternatives can imagine that there will be high-quality communication with the operator along the entire route.

Quote from alexoff

in general it is visible normally, as are the rest of the rather large geraniums

Plastic propeller visible to radar? Another bottom pierced...
In principle, the madness with a low-flying Hunter/Geranium with optics and a satellite-controlled MANPADS in the enemy's operational rear is enough to understand your level.
But that's not all the nonsense. The nonsense is that a low-flying, very slow, with a short detection horizon, UAV may not intercept, no, it may just stumble upon a high-speed, low-flying aircraft only by accident. Your idea with an ambush hunter is nonsense.
The idea with the Geranek defender is better, but not much, because it makes the disposable drone much more expensive, so it becomes an acceptable target for missiles. But it is also insulting that the tactics for countering such drones are even easier to develop than for drones with braking and self-detonation. Which can cost a little more than the original ones.

Quote from alexoff

satellite communication? If you fly into the gorge?

What connection? Russia has satellite communications to control UAVs? You are zero...

Quote from alexoff

so it's only because of MANPADS? And there were MANPADS in Syria too, ours just bombed from 6-7 km and didn't bother

You don't remember or understand your own writing:

Quote from alexoff

so that it could fly 100 km to the rear at minimum height and tried to catch enemy equipment

You are a complete zero, and what is there to argue with a zero?

[Soldatov V.]

Here we need to bring together a pilot and a UAV operator so that they can think up an air defense system using drones. I remember how pilot Rutskoy came up with the idea of ​​putting missiles backwards on his plane, flying over the target unnoticed and then launching missiles. The Mujahideen did not have time to open fire on him. And modern pilots and operators will come up with something.

[your1970]

Quote: V.

unnoticed flew over the target

To believe this, you have to have never seen a jet plane.
I won't even mention the technological problems.
Munchausen's flight on a cannonball is more possible

[Vitaly.17]

The idea is good because even in the absence of air counteraction, the missile can still be used for its intended purpose to destroy an enemy target. But the author, unfortunately, does not take into account that communication at a distance of more than a thousand km, which is the usual range of the Geran-3, can only be satellite. And this is difficult and expensive. Theoretically, there could be a HF communication, but for this you need to drag an antenna several meters long behind you and it is impossible to transmit a video signal via such a connection, only commands and signals.
Therefore, to destroy aircraft on a UAV, in addition to a missile, it is necessary to install a full-fledged optical sighting system in the upper hemisphere with a computing complex capable of independently recognizing an aircraft or helicopter and making decisions on targeting and missile attack. A similar task can be considered for the purpose of destroying ground-based missile systems. They also glow strongly in the infrared range, especially when launched, and for the R-60 homing head they can be a good target.

[Azim77]

The first paragraph made a good point that these UAVs are kamikazes, in one flight. Therefore, complicating the design, hanging additional equipment - this is an increase in cost and possibly also a reduction in distance. It is probably better to make such UAVs more maneuverable, flying along a complex trajectory, which, given their small size, will greatly complicate destruction.

[alexoff]

If the drone flies in a zigzag pattern, it will reduce the range by two to three times.

[Disant]

Vitaly.17
(Anatolievich) But the author unfortunately does not take into account that communication at a distance of more than a thousand km, which is the usual range of Geranium-3, can only be satellite. And this is difficult and expensive.

communication terminals are ready. 5g. laser communication in orbit for signal transmission has been tested "behind the corner of the ball" for more than five years with automatic docking in orbit at the ISS in any location (XNUMX% coverage from geostationary).
At the end of 25-beginning of 26, they will begin to deploy a space group of 1000 satellites for low-orbit signal transmission.
Khan everyone, mom don't worry

[AK-1945]

Interesting idea, I hope our people will try to implement it. I really want to evaluate the results after the fact.

[Sancheas]

It is no secret that a missile heading towards an airplane, among other things, has a very strong effect on the pilot's nerves. And what is going on there will be a "big, big secret" for the pilot, he will only see the missile heading towards him, launched from a very short distance, and therefore very inconvenient to neutralize.

Modern aircraft (let's consider the F-16 as such) have missile launch warning systems with a bunch of sensors, and a missile launch at the pilot will not be a surprise, especially for the R-60M. In particular, these systems can also determine the type of missile.

a two-seat training piston airplane, capable of flying slightly faster than a UAV, with a person in the second cabin holding an automatic shotgun

Oh, my God... The effective shooting range of a shotgun in such conditions is no more than 100 m (if the shooter is a genius, this is not at a clay pigeon shooting range, there is turbulence in the air, for example).
A UAV can carry 50 kg or more of ammunition. Do you want to find yourself 100 m away from a 50 kg explosion without protection?
The chance of hitting a UAV with your hands is very small. Remember the experience of the First World War. Before synchronized and turret machine guns were installed, episodes of destroying enemy aircraft were very rare.

[Hole puncher]

If the Ukrainians were able to install surface-to-air missiles on an unmanned boat, what could prevent them from similarly placing missiles under the belly of a drone?

The lack of control of the drone via Starlink will interfere. On the BEK, the missile was guided by an optical system controlled remotely via the Starlink satellite, but Shahedohran flies autonomously, so the idea is hopeless.

[Vladimir-TTT]

Quote: Puncher

The lack of control of the drone via Starlink will interfere. On the BEK, the missile was guided by an optical system controlled remotely via the Starlink satellite, but Shahedohran flies autonomously, so the idea is hopeless.

Sound comment.
All these UAVs exist because:
1. There is now a portable inertial system - even in the smallest models - which allows the autopilot to easily operate and a little navigation - but for navigation the accuracy is plus or minus km.
2. There is GPS, which allows navigation quite accurately - if the signal is not jammed. And since we have a lot tied to it - they jam it carefully.
3. There is a mobile network (towers), which allows you to use them for navigation.
4. There is a broadband Internet Starlink, which allows for management.
5. There is mobile Internet (towers), which allows you to use it.
6. There are brains that have managed to tie all this into one system.
7. There is a small commercial army, with a significant shortage of personnel, which does not allow for control of the border or approaches to strategic objects using a variety of detection methods.

And I will also remind you - here on VO there was a mention that the enemy widely uses mobile machine gun emplacements on vehicles to combat Geraniums. The solution is cheap, but effective, if there are systems for detecting Geranium launches (that same satellite reconnaissance) and determining the main direction of movement. And normal training of machine gun crews.

In general, training is "our everything" - a month ago, simple men with guns shot down several drones that were destroying strategists - because these men shoot guns professionally.

But training the LS for such actions requires a lot of things, starting with a sufficient number of junior, well-trained commanders, and an understanding from the top command that this is necessary.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

And I would also like to remind you that here on VO there was a mention that the enemy is widely using mobile machine gun emplacements on vehicles to combat Geraniums.

It's all due to a lack of intelligence.

[Vladimir-TTT]

Quote: Puncher

It's all due to a lack of intelligence.

If a "penny" Geranium can be (quite reliably) shot down with a penny machine gun burst, then who has a poor mind?
Half a century ago, Vietnam.
The developing missiles of the air defense system "drove" aviation to low altitudes - and there the small anti-aircraft missile system turned out to be very effective, which everyone seemed to have almost "written off" as hopelessly outdated.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

If a "penny" Geranium can be (quite reliably) shot down with a penny machine gun burst, then who has a poor mind?

1. The speed of movement of the target and the "hunter". They are not comparable, the hunter will not catch up with it
2. The "hunter" has no way to determine the location of the "hunt", and it is only with a low probability that it will fly over you (and not just fly over, but will be within the radius of destruction and there will be time to detect, aim and shoot).
Considering all of the above, it will be necessary to use enormous forces and means to intercept, given that there are much cheaper and more effective means. Which, by the way, have been talked about for a long time...

[Vladimir-TTT]

1. Interception.
2. Reconnaissance (detection) plus communications.

Quote: Puncher

Considering all of the above, it will be necessary to use enormous forces and means to intercept, given that there are much cheaper and more effective means. Which, by the way, have been talked about for a long time...

Another dream about Wunderwaffe.
This speaks more about the peculiarity of modern “clip” thinking - now we’ll find a “magic wand” - and that’s it.
Any problem can be solved not by some superweapon, but by a complete complex.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

This speaks more about the peculiarity of modern “clip” thinking - now we’ll find a “magic wand” - and that’s it.

What are you talking about? Remember history, what is best at intercepting air targets? Anti-aircraft artillery or aviation?

[Vladimir-TTT]

Quote: Puncher

What are you talking about? Remember history, what is best at intercepting air targets? Anti-aircraft artillery or aviation?

That's exactly it. V-1s were shot down by fighters. But not all of them.
And even the Po-2, when the Germans got really tired of them, they used night fighters, with the appropriate equipment, and shot them down.
But in addition to aviation, everything was used for air defense purposes - even when the USSR had air superiority.
What are you talking about? About a UAV interceptor? As many here are promoting such an idea - UAV + AI and all the tasks are solved.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

What are you talking about?

We take a regular single-engine airplane, of which there are plenty of models, install a mm-range radar, an OES, an aircraft cannon and go hunting at any time of day or night. Any road is straight 200 - 300 m your runway. Everything is solved very simply.

[Vladimir-TTT]

This is a good solution. One of the complex. Just at heights from, probably, 100-300 m and up to 5 km.
But... Not in our country. There are no single-engine planes, so to speak, and no pilots either.
And this does not in any way cancel out ground-based means.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

But... Not in our country.

Something is wrong with us again...

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

There are practically no single-engine aircraft

There are thousands of used single-engine airplanes for sale around the world.

Quote: Vladimir-TTT

pilots and pilots - too

Our ancestors in the 40s could learn to fly an airplane, but we couldn’t?

[Vladimir-TTT]

Quote: Puncher

Something is wrong with us again...

Apparently this is the place. Or - they named the wrong country.....

Quote: Puncher

There are thousands of used single-engine airplanes for sale around the world.

Our officials will spend billions and buy "all two planes" - one without an engine, the second without a wing. But they will report and justify themselves. "Our own" will buy them. And they, as we know, are not abandoned.

Quote: Puncher

Our ancestors in the 40s could learn to fly an airplane, but we couldn’t?

They didn't have the Internet or a smartphone. But they had a head with brains, hands in the right place, ideology, patriotism - real, not "hurray-"
And there was the leadership of the country. Its own leadership of its own country.

[Viktor Sergeev]

I'll let you in on a secret, it's the 21st century, not the mid-20th, and air defense missiles have been around for a long time. For example, the new Pantsir is being mass-produced without guns, but with ultra-short-range missiles. Air defense is the best weapon against UAVs, it's on the ground, doesn't require $50 an hour of work, has ground reconnaissance capabilities, can quickly block directions and create a massive fist to repel an attack. An airplane is good when you need to meet far away or in a place where there is no air defense, or when the ground air defense is dead. Another five days and the Israeli planes would have landed dead.
It is necessary to develop UAV detection systems, for example sound detectors of the type used in WWII, and supply them to protected objects, as well as means of suppressing electronic warfare.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Only Geranis are practically not shot down by air defense missiles (and if they are shot down, the missile costs 10 times more) and they climbed from low altitudes to high ones. Can you imagine how many 20-30mm barrels are needed to cover one small factory? An automatic rifle is almost useless unless you can pound it with 100 barrels at once. But the main thing is, you shot down a Geran in the city and what did you get? A destroyed house.
By the way, in Vietnam it wasn't machine guns that sent planes up, but rather missiles that sent them down. Planes have always flown high, it's economical and protects against small arms, why would bombers fly down, especially American ones? Well, a fighter simply needs altitude to gain superiority over the enemy.
Your machine guns and small-caliber guns were more helpful against helicopters.

[alexoff]

But religion forbids installing a communication system there. Even though the Persians installed an iridium block, and today's geraniums are simplified versions.

[501 Legion]

I have long thought about whether it is a problem to hang a rocket under the belly of a geranium. I agree with the author of the article, such a time will come soon. Geraniums can be made in different types, given that their production is already extremely high

[Hole puncher]

Quote: 501Legion

I've been thinking for a long time about whether it's a problem to hang a rocket under the belly of a geranium.

There is no problem hanging it even on a tractor. The problem is how to point it and start it.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Now let's turn on our brains:
1. It's easy to hang, but what will happen to the UAV's stealth? You need to make a UAV with an internal rocket holder. This will lead to an increase in size.
2. To guide the missile, you need an external guidance system, like a fighter. Yes, your Geranium with such a system will cost 5 times more, plus the size and weight will increase.
3. How often are enemy fighters used to combat UAVs? What's the point of sending 10% of Geraniums with very expensive missiles when the enemy simply doesn't have fighters in 99% of cases? They will simply fall and explode, causing minimal damage.
Before writing, read about the F22 gun, they were also being clever and wanted something universal.

[alexoff]

It's easy to hang, but what will happen to the UAV's stealth?

Are they made using stealth technology so that the missile can spot them like that?

Yes, your Geranium with such a system will cost 5 times more.

and how much does a fighter cost? And how are we now with knocking out enemy fighters? How many missiles have been launched at the airfield near Khmelnitsky since 2022? There, probably, the price is like a new cruiser

[dragon772]

The idea is clear, R-60 is 44 kg, it’s easier to take Igla, 4 times lighter, range up to 5 km. Shoot as much as you want.
There will be a Geranium Interceptor with 4 Needles.

[vovochkarzhevsky]

What kind of idiocy is this? "Geran-3.0" is, in fact, a cruise missile at minimum speeds. Yes, 600 km/h is much more than 200 km/h, but still only approaching the level of the V-1.
Nevertheless, the trend is noticeable. It seems that today's strategists have begun to understand that you can't do much with flying lawn mowers. But admitting that previous generations were right is somehow not comme il faut, so they pretend that they came up with it themselves.
But to think of using this as a Z-V and V-V missile, you would have to have a sad mind, or be an active adherent of the UAV witnesses sect (although the second requires the presence of the first).
And no faith forbids equipping the same R-60 with a different type of seeker, not just an IR, unless the adherents of the aforementioned sect are against it.

[Andrey_i_K]

They wrote and wrote about this a year ago... but as it turns out, there is no point in teaching our thick-headed people in Moscow!

[Viktor Sergeev]

Because the idea is stupid to the point of ugliness. Firstly, the V-V missile is expensive and quite large, secondly, to capture a target, the UAV needs to be equipped with a whole detection system, like in a fighter, thirdly: fighters are rare in our theater of operations and arming some Geraniums with V-V missiles is expensive and stupid. It is easier to hang an A50 and one Su-35 fighter, or better yet, a Su-57. Well, and it is better to equip the Geraniums with anti-missile missiles, more.

[Andriuha077]

Infrared countermeasures are systems used in military aviation, designed to counter infrared homing missiles (IRHM), such as the R-27(E)T, R-60, R-73, MANPADS missiles, etc.
There are special projectiles for aircraft cannons, loaded with a high-temperature combustible mixture and also designed to produce IR interference. They are called "Anti-Infrared Projectiles" (for example, PIKS-23P-AM-GSh is a 23-mm infrared interference cartridge for AM-23 and GSh-23 aircraft cannons). It should be noted that modern types of homing heads (in particular, ultraviolet ones) can differ in the spectral characteristics of the radiation of the LTC and the aircraft.

The newest Russian portable anti-aircraft missile system 9K333 "Verba" has already been recognized as the best in the world. It is practically impossible for an air target to dodge a missile fired from this MANPADS. Even heat traps, which "Verba" simply ignores, will not save it.
It shoots down aircraft at altitudes from 10 meters to 4,5 kilometers and at ranges up to 6,5 kilometers, which makes effective operation of frontline aviation virtually impossible.
The compact and jam-proof radar, which operates in conjunction with the Verba, detects air targets at a distance of up to 80 kilometers. Moreover, thanks to the Barnaul-T tactical complex, the new Russian MANPADS has the ability to receive information from large radars.

[Viktor Sergeev]

So who recognized Verba as the best? It was finally equipped with a system for detecting targets in ultraviolet light, which has been on the Stinger for a decade, and they don't give a damn about traps. It is possible to dodge any missile. If the pilot has nerves of steel, then a few hundred meters before the missile approaches, a maneuver is made to avoid it, while the missile physically cannot maneuver to the target, it lacks maneuverability and overload. That is why smart and not greedy people fire two or three missiles every half a second or a second, since the plane, after avoiding the first, having lost speed, loses the ability to maneuver sharply and becomes a target.
Well, for MANPADS, the probability of hitting is 50% (in reality, as a rule, much less) and can already be considered enormous, and the further away the target, the lower the probability.
The actual strike range on a Su-25 type aircraft is 500 meters, and during this time the target must be detected, captured and fired. So, any MANPADS, from a miracle weapon, turns into practically nothing if the enemy has brains. Rather, the purpose of MANPADS is to drive aircraft to a height where they will be met by normal air defense and fighters.

[Andriuha077]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

So who recognized Verba as the best?

These are just quotes. And the charge is smaller. How do you rate the probability of a pair compared to one R-60 at short range?

[Viktor Sergeev]

A UAV needs a missile with an ultra-short range, up to 2 km, but fast and maneuverable, and then: it detects a heat trail from an aircraft in the air and the missile goes off. But the whole problem is that Israel shot it down with planes, because the air defense turned out to be super expensive and ineffective. In our reality, UAVs suffer more from ground-based air defense, and aircraft are incredibly rare and try to guess whether a fighter will be in the air strike? Missiles are expensive and shoving them into a part of Geraniums is not effective.

[Gnus_]

in the second cabin with a man who in his hands an automatic shotgun, - This is a very dangerous enemy for a drone.
Thank you, neighing.

[Evgeny_Sviridenko]

Theoretically, the 3rd Geranium should be able to handle 2 R-60s. Another issue is the possibility of defeat after launch, as has already been noted. The R-60 needs to be improved no matter what... But it is clear that if all this is implemented, then the interception tactics will change. No one will shoot down with Geranium guns anymore... That is why heat traps are also included...

[WUA 518]

Just as the faith in the good tsar never dies in a Russian, so the idea of ​​hanging missiles on the poor Gerani never dies on the site, just without getting into the thick of the APU-60 + R-60, this is about 80 kg (from memory, I may be a little mistaken, I'm already old, I can be forgiven), multiply by 2, yeah, that's already normal, external suspension - minus from maximum speed, overload, and fuel consumption. According to the ratio of the mass of the rocket and the carrier, heeling moments may occur during launch, they will need to be somehow parried, as well as the imbalance after launch. Of course, you can come up with something like the AKU-470, but its mass will be comparable to the mass of the carrier. The report is finished, go ahead, kick.

[alexoff]

There are different types of missiles, the R-60s have probably rusted in long-term storage warehouses. There are missiles with MANPADS, there is an S-8L with laser target illumination, it is probably possible to attach an IR seeker or even use television guidance. And in general, you can add a parachute to such a geranium and use it along the border to catch all sorts of enemy drones in hothouse conditions