Western View of the Crisis in the Confrontation between Soviet Armor and Shells

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Western View of the Crisis in the Confrontation between Soviet Armor and Shells

Today, there is much talk about the fact that the special military operation in Ukraine was marked by a crisis in the confrontation between armor and projectiles. They say, Tanks have lost their relevance - drones rule the world and all that jazz. But in reality, this is far from the first time that armored vehicles, so to speak, become “uncomfortable” on the battlefield.

The full understanding of this problem came back in the 1970s after the Arab-Israeli war, during which tanks were effectively destroyed by infantry anti-tank weapons, which naturally led to discussions about the future of tanks in different countries. And especially in the two opposing powers - the USA and the USSR, which were keenly interested in each other's opinion on this issue.



An article written by Phillip Karber, a professor at the US National Defense College, touches on the topic of this “interest.” It examines the reaction of Soviet senior military officials to the widespread and growing power of anti-tank weapons. We publish it here — not because we claim to be the ultimate truth (it is not an authoritative source, a priori), but as an example of Western thinking at that time.

The Soviet Antitank Debate


On June 21, 1339, an outnumbered Swiss infantry force armed only with pikes met the elite of the feudal knighthood, unseated the knights from their armored horses, and ushered in a new era of military art. The Battle of Laupen was a tactical innovation that not only demonstrated the superiority of light infantry over the striking power of mobile and heavily armored forces, but also heralded political and social change.

Almost literally the same “democratization of war” could be observed 634 years later – in the early days of the 1973 Arab-Israeli War in the Middle East, when Arab infantry equipped with anti-tank weapons were able to stop the advance of Israeli tanks.

The implications of the Arab success have been hotly debated in the West. Many observers have agreed that the balance of power on the battlefield has shifted towards infantry at the expense of tanks, which have dominated the battlefield since World War II. Many have welcomed this development, believing that the same weapons that enabled the Arabs to succeed – anti-tank guided missiles missiles (ATGM) and hand-held anti-tank grenade launchers - will give NATO countries a good chance to compensate for the superiority of the Warsaw Pact countries in tanks in Central Europe.

Moreover, one author argued that even the Soviet Union's tank formations were too armor-oriented, suggesting that "Soviet tables of organization and equipment are influenced by the experience gained in a war that ended 30 years ago" and that Soviet thinking was still dominated by "battleship thinking" that influenced the military intellectual environment.

Another study concludes that the Soviet Union's commitment to tanks as the primary strike and shock element of the army is unlikely to change. "The debate in the Western military community regarding the combat effectiveness of armored vehicles in conditions where the battlefield will be saturated with high-precision weapons, had virtually no impact on the USSR."

These conclusions betray a naive assessment of the Soviet Union's force structure and ignore contemporary Soviet doctrinal literature. Not only were the Soviets aware of the aftermath of the 1973 Arab-Israeli War (it was, after all, Soviet antitank weapons that the Arabs used), but they also demonstrated a deep understanding of the potential of antitank technology in modern warfare. This understanding is well reflected in professional military publications. Changes in Soviet doctrine and force structure clearly demonstrate this concern, and these changes have important implications for Western defense.


In mid-November 1974, a scientific and practical conference on ground forces issues was held at the Malinovsky Armored Forces Academy. More than 200 people took part in it: marshals, generals, officers of the central apparatus of the Ministry of Defense, military research teams, Soviet military advisers and instructors located abroad, teachers of military academies and representatives of other scientific institutions. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the tactical and organizational consequences of the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, especially in the context of the future fate of armored vehicles on the modern battlefield.

The discussions raised doubts about the sustainability of the Soviet Union's offensive doctrine. This conference was followed by an unprecedented second conference in January 1975, attended by Defense Minister A.A. Grechko and Ground Forces Commander I.G. Pavlovsky. Both emphasized the importance of the lessons learned from the events of October (the Yom Kippur War) and sharply criticized the Soviet Army's contemporary operational exercises, calling for a doctrinal discussion of the implications of the antitank threat. Neither of these conferences has yet been fully analyzed in the West.

Marshal Grechko's comments were included in the second edition of his recently published book:

"More than any other event in the last 10 years, the events in the Middle East have focused military experts' attention on the relationship between offensive and defensive means in the ground forces. They have revealed a number of characteristic features of the struggle between offensive and defensive doctrine, as well as the development of new methods of warfare."
“It should be noted that modern defense—with its massive use of powerful weapons—has become more resilient.”

This is explained, first of all, by the vulnerability of tanks - the main striking force of the advancing troops, and the fact that their use on the battlefield has become much more difficult. Continuous efforts to improve anti-tank weapons have made them a real threat to tanks and at the same time prompted the search for new means of protection and more effective systems for reliable suppression of enemy anti-tank weapons."

Grechko's provocative statements marked the beginning of the Soviet antitank debate, and over the past year more than 50 analytical articles have been published in Soviet journals examining the challenges associated with the high effectiveness of antitank weapons demonstrated in the near-war conflict.

Although this debate remained largely a subject of discussion in the professional journal Voyenny Vestnik, interest in anti-tank issues was also reflected in an increase in publications in more “open” publications such as Krasnaya Zvezda and Sovetskoye Voyennoye Obozreniye (the latter also published in English). Given the number of publications, their high level, and the clear and openly expressed concerns, it can be concluded that the Red Army did indeed face a problem.

However, before NATO starts viewing ATGMs as a deus ex machina, it is necessary to take into account several key points that follow from the Soviet anti-tank debate: The Soviet Army has changed its approach in recent years: it does not put all its “eggs” in the tank basket. The main trend in recent years is, on the contrary, a gradual reduction in the specific role of tanks in combined arms formations.

Paradoxically, anti-tank weapons pose the greatest threat not to tanks, but to infantry fighting vehicles, that is, armored personnel carriers that closely interact with infantry.

The Soviet antitank debate is not about abandoning tanks, but about how to maintain offensive capabilities while responding to the growing antitank threat. Each of these points is explored in more detail below.

Threat from anti-tank weapons


The Red Army has long been aware of the potential of anti-tank weapons. In fact, the USSR was one of the first countries to begin developing and deploying ATGMs (anti-tank guided missiles) en masse. As early as 1964, after one of the demonstration launches at a tank, Khrushchev said:

It hurts. After everything we've invested in tanks... If we were bourgeois, the tank factory shares would have already caught fire before they even reached the front lines.

Throughout the post-war period, the Soviet military showed a keen interest in the state of Western anti-tank technology. In 1967, Soviet military publications began a “serious” discussion of the technical characteristics of ATGMs, as well as ways for the Soviet military industry to adapt them. They wrote about a “qualitatively new method of combating tanks,” in particular about an “anti-tank guided missile capable of hitting a tank at a distance of several kilometers.”

In 1972, the classic Soviet work "Anti-tank War" was published, which paid special attention to ATGMs, their penetrating ability, technical characteristics, and the ability to destroy armored targets from a long distance. New forms of interaction between tanks were also considered, artillery and infantry against the backdrop of the growing role of anti-tank weapons.

In 1973, immediately after the Middle East conflict, additional studies appeared emphasizing the need for a revision of the doctrine. They stated: “The experience of the Middle East conflict forced the recognition that ATGMs provide infantry with a weapon comparable in effectiveness to tanks: the probability of hitting a moving armored target has increased dramatically.”

The Soviet Army's Reliance on Tanks


Although the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries have a clear advantage in tank forces compared to NATO, the Soviet Army has not neglected other branches of the armed forces. In fact, contrary to popular belief in the West, over the past decade the Soviet Army has reduced the relative importance of tanks in favor of other elements of combined arms formations – especially motorized infantry and artillery.

In the early 1960s, the ratio of tank and motorized rifle divisions was 1 to 1,8. By 1974, the ratio had changed - the Soviet Army was replenished with another 20 divisions, all of which were motorized rifle. The ratio became 1 to 2,2 in favor of the infantry.

This increase in the proportion of motorized infantry coincided with a doctrinal shift from the “one option” of nuclear war to the acceptance of conventional (non-nuclear) options for the theater of war. These changes were accompanied by reforms in the command and control system of the ground forces.


Already in the late 1950s, the Soviet Army began reorganizing to adapt to the new conditions of nuclear war. Artillery lost its former importance, and the emphasis was shifted to tank and mechanized forces, which were expected to be able to survive on a nuclear battlefield.

With the transition of infantry units to full mechanization in 1963, a new branch of the military was formed - motorized rifle troops. At the same time, the concept of "deep offensive" was restored, which was developed by Tukhachevsky in the 1930s, but later abandoned. In 1967, with the appointment of I.V. Pavlovsky to the post of commander-in-chief of the Ground Forces, the USSR began to actively deploy motorized infantry forces near the western border.

In the same year, 1967, the Soviet Union for the first time seriously began to rely on conventional operations in addition to nuclear ones. Since then, many Soviet authors have expressed the opinion that motorized rifle units are more resistant to modern threats than tank units. In the 1970s, a theory even appeared in the West that the Soviet Union could launch a mixed attack of motorized infantry and tanks in order to avoid excessive losses in armored vehicles.

Contrary to Western estimates that it took the USSR 15 years to recognize the vulnerability of tanks in Central Europe, the Soviet Union took this threat into account during the initial deployment of its new infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs). The first IFV (model BMP-1) had a 73mm cannon, an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) on the turret, and at least one RPG-7 grenade launcher operated by troops.

This emphasis on combined arms formations was also reflected in the growth of Soviet troops in East Germany: over the past 5 years, motorized infantry, artillery, anti-tank and Defense-funds.

Soviet motorized infantry is more vulnerable than tanks


The growth of combined arms units in the USSR plays an important role in the new perspective of the anti-tank debate. As recent Soviet publications show, the issue is not so much the vulnerability of tanks as the vulnerability of motorized infantry, especially those deployed in BMPs.

The Army has conducted assessments that show that the combat vulnerability of BMPs is twice that of tanks. Exercises and combat trials since the Middle East war have shown that BMPs are even more vulnerable than expected, and their new generation of anti-tank weapons further increases this threat. Soviet doctrine recognizes that a successful offensive depends heavily on the survival and mobility of motorized infantry.


Until recently, it was assumed that infantry on board IFVs, accompanied by massive tank and artillery support, could overcome NATO defenses. However, the growing vulnerability of IFVs is starting a chain reaction that is beginning to undermine the entire structure of offensive doctrine. If IFVs are destroyed faster than the tanks that accompany them, then:

- infantry dies before entering the battle;

- BMPs are not capable of delivering infantry to the required point;

- tanks are left without cover, which increases their vulnerability.

In practice, this could mean the failure of an offensive operation, since tanks, without infantry cover, become easy targets for anti-tank weapons and defending troops.

Maintaining offensive power


It may well be that calling recent Soviet publications an “anti-tank debate” is not entirely correct. After all, the fact that anti-tank weapons are effective is not disputed by anyone. Almost everyone acknowledges that the development of ATGMs (anti-tank guided missiles) was a tactical revolution. Moreover, there is no significant disagreement among Soviet commentators about who these systems primarily threaten: motorized infantry, not tanks.

The problem being discussed is different: how to maintain a high offensive tempo in the face of NATO's reinforced anti-tank defenses. Although no clear "solution packages" are offered in open Soviet sources, consistent trends are emerging. Two main trends can be seen in Soviet military discussions, reflecting the old Khrushchev-era debate about reducing ground forces.

Nuclear option


For thirty years, the concept of nuclear warfare was the basis of Soviet strategic thinking. The Soviet Union's ground forces were repeatedly reformed to support offensive operations in a nuclear battlefield. Such reforms included:

- abandonment of traditional artillery in favor of self-propelled artillery;

- emphasis on mobility and combat groups;

- the desire to break through the enemy's defense with a blow, which is immediately followed by breakthrough forces.

With the outbreak of World War II, this approach lost its relevance, and the emphasis was on breaking through the defense with heavy artillery, which was supposed to soften the defense, and was then supported by infantry and tanks.

With the development of ATGMs, the Soviet army underwent a tactical revolution, and some experts once again proposed a return to the nuclear scenario as a way to overcome anti-tank defenses. Thus, there is a strong motivation to return to a doctrine in which nuclear weapons are considered as a means of suppressing AT threats.


The Soviet Union never shared NATO's love of low-yield tactical nuclear charges launched from self-propelled artillery. However, in recent years, interest in such an idea has increased, especially in conjunction with the development of self-propelled artillery. Some Soviet sources even link low-energy nuclear charges to the tasks of self-propelled artillery. In addition, it is argued that the problems of IFVs associated with anti-tank threats are irrelevant in a nuclear war, where:

- the enemy disperses its forces, and the attack can be launched without the risk of massive losses;

- when using nuclear weapons, defensive positions are suppressed, and motorized infantry can quickly advance without losing their BMPs to anti-tank weapons.

However, the Soviet command is not ready to write off the AT threat and rely entirely on nuclear weapons. For both political and operational reasons, they need a more realistic, non-nuclear option.

Artillery variant


Of all conventional weapons, artillery is given the greatest importance. Many Soviet sources emphasize that the only way to counter anti-tank systems is to suppress them with powerful artillery fire, especially with the use of self-propelled artillery. These systems allow firing at the pace of the advancing battle.

Soviet authors cite the following advantages of this approach:

[i]Artillery can affect anti-tank crews before they open fire;

Self-propelled artillery can move together with the advancing units;

Massive fire strikes disrupt coordination and destroy the positions of anti-tank systems.


"If we can't suppress AT weapons before the battle starts, our tanks have no chance of surviving."


Opponents of this idea insist that artillery is not enough, especially in the conditions of a dense NATO defense. They argue that fire support from artillery is rarely accurate and timely. Nevertheless, it is the artillery route that is currently considered the most realistic and acceptable way to solve the anti-tank threat.


For artillery to be truly effective in direct fire mode, it will need to be decentralized to the battery and battalion level, and have multiple direct-fire weapons capable of penetrating defenses.

To give artillery tactical mobility and the ability to accompany advancing units, it must be self-propelled and protected.

Over the past year, the Soviet Union has fielded two new large-caliber self-propelled artillery systems with direct-fire capability, marking a major departure from traditional Soviet doctrine, which relied on massive barrages of towed guns.

However, even such measures are not without difficulties.

Soviet experts understand that dividing artillery into small tactical units and attempting to coordinate its actions with tanks and infantry greatly complicates the entire command and control system. Even at the battalion level, such integration requires an expansion of staff and the creation of a reliable logistical structure. In an offensive, artillery becomes more vulnerable, and coordinating massive salvos is a serious problem.

Maneuver option


As expected, representatives of the armored forces strongly object to the "artillery approach." They do not want to slow down the offensive, but, on the contrary, seek to speed it up. In particular, General Bukharenko from the tank forces asserts:
“Considering that on the modern battlefield every second is worth its weight in gold, the method of attacking with infantry landing from an infantry fighting vehicle is not the best way.”

General Skorodumov, citing the Israeli experience, emphasizes maneuverability and firepower, not slow advance with artillery barrage. Tank officers believe that the problem is not the vulnerability of the BMP as such, but the restrictions imposed by the artillery that hold back the advance.


BMPs, in their view, are well suited to moving in battle formation alongside tanks. They are not ideal, but they are quite functional, especially if you avoid the traditional offensive scheme. Tank command insists on maneuverability, rapid strike and action on weak points, and not on building lines and fronts.

Density of anti-tank defense


Why is the anti-tank threat mentioned so often in Soviet works, especially in relation to the BMP? The key is probably in the density of NATO AT deployment. Soviet analysts have long argued that the more AT weapons per unit of front, the slower the army advances, since any movement requires overcoming narrow defensive zones.

The enemy, in turn, with low troop density, has high mobility, which allows them to escape, regroup and use anti-tank strike groups deep in the rear, disrupting supplies.

In the event of a conflict with NATO, the Red Army would prefer to launch a surprise attack without the need for full mobilization. This is especially true for NATO army groups stationed in Central Europe. Such strike units are already combat ready and do not require additional manning. The goal is to prevent NATO from deploying a stable anti-tank defense and wrest the strategic initiative from it.

Conclusion


Soviet commentators emphasize that Western armies, especially the American and German, are not ready for the new doctrine of maneuver, which combines armor, mobility, and the rejection of the traditional frontal offensive. They are held back by their focus on defense, which requires dense battle formations and dispersed anti-tank weapons.

The Soviets, in turn, are not going to abandon offensive operations and are focusing on how to overcome anti-tank defenses without reducing the pace of the offensive. Although the nuclear option remains in the arsenal, the main reliance is on conventional means - and above all on the flexible interaction of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled artillery.

Source:
The Soviet Antitank Debate by Phillip A. Karber. Armor Magazine, November-December 1976.
74 comments
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  1. +11
    29 June 2025 05: 21
    An interesting topic, of which there are so few on this resource. The article is a plus!
  2. +11
    29 June 2025 05: 33
    It would be interesting to read comments in the style of "our BMPs were created for a different war." Especially after reports and meetings of generals and designers about how 50 years ago their survivability and the survivability of motorized infantry in these BMPs was assessed, to put it mildly, as extremely low.
    1. +6
      29 June 2025 06: 42
      The Jews drew their conclusions. But in the USSR and Russia, heavy infantry fighting vehicles on tank chassis never appeared.
      1. -1
        29 June 2025 09: 12
        Jews won all wars with M113 and M3 half-tracks - stop fantasizing already.
        Moreover, the theatres of military operations are completely different.
        1. -4
          29 June 2025 09: 18
          Namer, Akhzarit, Puma, are these names familiar? Or are you out of the loop?
          1. +3
            29 June 2025 09: 26
            Are you blind or illiterate? Israel's last victory - Lebanon 1982 - where the main contribution was made by the Air Force. Achzarit is -87. Go on and play tanks...
            1. 0
              29 June 2025 15: 53
              I'm talking about the infantry, what should they do? Go into attack in cardboard BMPs?
              1. IVZ
                +3
                29 June 2025 17: 52
                Infantry does not attack in BMPs. Before the battle, it dismounts and attacks behind the tanks, and the BMPs go behind the infantry, providing fire support in terms of fighting tanks and tank-hazardous targets. At least that was the idea. And the infantry was supposed to be in the BMP during the battle in case of overcoming contaminated areas.
                1. -1
                  29 June 2025 17: 56
                  According to combat regulations, infantry dismounts 400-600 meters from the enemy, and the infantry must reach the dismounting point in an infantry fighting vehicle safe and sound.
                  1. IVZ
                    +1
                    29 June 2025 18: 16
                    True. 400 - 600 meters is the firing range of an RPG.
        2. +2
          29 June 2025 09: 24
          Quote: Dozorny - severa
          Moreover, the theatres of military operations are completely different.

          This is the most correct conclusion. As when fishing, you choose how and what (tackle) to catch, and depending on the theater of military operations, tactics. And for this, you need to have different means and weapons to choose from.
      2. 0
        9 July 2025 03: 03
        Jews?. World War II "RAM Kangaroo - a heavy armored personnel carrier, created on the basis of the Canadian RAM tank (licensed Sherman).
        The Kangaroo armored personnel carriers had protection that was not typical for such equipment; their armor reached 38-50 mm."
    2. +5
      29 June 2025 07: 12
      Quote: Tlauicol
      It would be interesting to read comments in the style of "our BMPs were created for a different war." Especially after reports and meetings of generals and designers about how 50 years ago their survivability and the survivability of motorized infantry in these BMPs was assessed, to put it mildly, as extremely low.

      As we see, despite all the words, meetings and other analysis, no conclusions were made. It was especially funny.
      In order to adapt to the new ATGM threat, the ratio was changed in favor of the BMPs, which suffered twice as much from the new threat. Thus, the adaptation to ATGM from Soviet military leaders, on the contrary, made the army even more vulnerable to the new thing.
      But seriously, it was not the ratio of tanks to infantry fighting vehicles that needed to be changed, but the ratio of ground forces to aviation. Putting much more chips on the air, because it was the air that helped break through the deeply echeloned anti-tank defense in the following wars.
      1. -6
        29 June 2025 07: 24
        How can infantry advance on foot?
        1. +8
          29 June 2025 07: 38
          Quote: Mars
          How can infantry advance on foot?

          How the Americans advance, in heavy armored vehicles, on an already completely suppressed zone in which aviation has cleared everything serious. In the event of detection of unsuppressed zones, the infantry retreats and orders air and artillery strikes on them
          1. +5
            29 June 2025 07: 46
            The Americans do not have heavy infantry fighting vehicles on a tank chassis, and most of the army and the NG are light infantry in Humvees.
            1. +5
              29 June 2025 08: 40
              Quote: Mars
              The Americans do not have heavy infantry fighting vehicles on a tank chassis

              Compared to the BMP-1/2/3, even the M2 Bradley would pass for heavy. Although the M2 is nowhere near the Achzarit, much less the Namer, in terms of protection.
              1. +3
                29 June 2025 09: 00
                Bradleys are used by 15 tank brigades, another 9 by Strykers and 32 light brigades by Humvees, so the bulk of the US infantry does not have heavy equipment.
                1. -1
                  29 June 2025 16: 57
                  Quote: Mars
                  Bradleys are used by 15 tank brigades, another 9 by Strykers and 32 light brigades by Humvees, so the bulk of the US infantry does not have heavy equipment.

                  When was the last time the US attacked with the full might of its army, rather than a small expeditionary force?
                  1. 0
                    29 June 2025 17: 16
                    In Iraq in 2003, which does not change the fact that they do not have heavy infantry fighting vehicles.
                    1. 0
                      30 June 2025 07: 53
                      Quote: Mars
                      In Iraq in 2003, which does not change the fact that they do not have heavy infantry fighting vehicles.

                      It is unlikely that for such a narrow country (Almost everything valuable is located between two rivers. And on the sides of the country there is a desert. More than 15 brigades are needed for the entire front
              2. -1
                29 June 2025 17: 43
                Quote: Nagan
                Compared to the BMP-1/2/3, even the M2 Bradley would be considered heavy.

                The BMP-3 with body kit and side screens is probably not inferior to the Bradley in terms of protection, except perhaps in terms of mine protection. But in terms of armament, it is head and shoulders above it.
                True, the layout solution is simply amazing. I would understand such a choice of layout and conditions for the exit/landing of troops, for the Marine Corps of the Navy and Airborne Forces, where amphibious conditions prevailed over the convenience of dismounting troops. But for the Ground Forces ... Here we need the BMP-3M "Dragoon" or "Manul".
                In the USSR, they started thinking about the TBMP in the late 80s and did some research. The most reasonable thing would have been to use the T-64 chassis for such a TBMP, which was going to be taken out of production. Its chassis, designed for a tank weight of up to 36 tons, would have been more than suitable for such a TBTR and TBMP, and HTZ would have had something to load it with. But they didn't have time. And the work of HTZ engineers resulted in the TBTR-64 ​​and TBTR-55 concepts, but much later.
      2. +3
        29 June 2025 17: 31
        Quote: BlackMokona
        Thus, the adaptation of Soviet military leaders to ATGMs actually made the army even more vulnerable to the new product.

        What kind of nonsense is this? To increase the tanks' resistance to ATGMs, dynamic protection systems, sandwich armor panels, smoke and aerosol grenades were installed on the hull to create a cloud impenetrable to the laser that controls the ATGMs. Above the TBMP and BMPT (which was supposed to fight anti-tank weapons with its rapid-fire guns and grenade launchers. Not all of the projects and programs of the late USSR were implemented, but this is definitely not the USSR's fault. We will modestly remain silent about the new ones, because more than enough has already been said before.
        Quote: BlackMokona
        But seriously, what was needed here was not the ratio of tanks to infantry fighting vehicles, but the ratio of ground forces to aviation. Putting a lot more chips on the air,

        laughing Wasn't it like that in the USSR?? Mi-24, Mi-28, Ka-50, Su-25, MiG-27, Su-17 and Su-24 - all this was for supporting the Ground Forces from the air. And also a whole box of mobile and portable anti-tank systems. All this was created in light of the understanding of the nature of future combat operations, and not only in Europe. Although it was the European theater of operations that was the main one for us.
        At the end of the 80s, neither in Europe nor in the USA did there yet exist any TBMPs; the opinion about their necessity was only just being formed both here and in the West.
        So there is no need to pull the owl of a Western expert onto the Globe of Ukraine, in the USSR they treated future wars more than seriously. And the bet on amphibious armored vehicles for the infantry was made precisely based on the upcoming theater of military operations - in Europe, where many rivers and reservoirs are right across the future offensive of our armies. The bet was on swiftness, onslaught, the maneuverable nature of the war with forcing water obstacles on the fly. Positional battles were not envisaged, and the use of nuclear weapons was envisaged as an unconditional and inevitable necessity.
        Quote: BlackMokona
        Air helped to break through deeply echeloned anti-tank defenses in subsequent wars.

        "Air" will not even notice or see this anti-tank gun from above. But it will certainly help suppress the identified one. But how long should we wait for it (air support) after the request? That's it. And infantry/motorized infantry can destroy identified anti-tank gun positions on their own. Anti-tank guns also work very well against anti-tank guns. And automatic guns of infantry fighting vehicles. And tank guns. It's all about the level of tactical training of troops and the availability of the necessary means. The Soviet Army had more than enough means of fire suppression. And the Aviation (including the Front) was given primary attention.
        And now a very difficult and painful return to Common Sense is taking place. And this is a process, not an accomplished fact.
        1. 0
          30 June 2025 07: 54
          Quote: bayard
          But how long should we wait for it (air support) after the request? That's the point.

          One minute. After all, you can hang a strike UAV or loitering munitions from above.
          1. 0
            30 June 2025 14: 10
            Now it is possible, then (70-80s) not yet. Although already then the USSR had UAVs for the battlefield and for reconnaissance of the near/operational rear: "Pchela"\"Shmel", "Reis" etc. And work on this topic was underway. After the collapse of the USSR, leading specialists left for Israel and made it for some time the trendsetter for such UAVs.
            1. 0
              30 June 2025 16: 03
              Quote: bayard
              Now it is possible, then (70-80s) not yet. Although already then the USSR had UAVs for the battlefield and for reconnaissance of the near/operational rear: "Pchela"\"Shmel", "Reis" etc. And work on this topic was underway. After the collapse of the USSR, leading specialists left for Israel and made it for some time the trendsetter for such UAVs.

              As you can see, then it is also possible, it is just not done in hardware yet. And when strategic planning is underway, any theoretically available options for restructuring are taken. R&D will simply be ordered for them if they work well in theory
    3. -6
      29 June 2025 09: 15
      The article doesn't say anything about low survivability. Why lie so forcefully? Any BMP can't withstand a hit from an ATGM or RPG. In the West, BMPs and APCs were no different from the BMP-1 in terms of protection. But for an anti-Soviet, everything in the West is always sacred and truthful...
      1. +3
        29 June 2025 09: 27
        Have you even read it?
        "Based on the results of exercises and combat trials since the war in the Middle East, it has become clear that IFVs are even more vulnerable to defeat than expected, and their new generation of anti-tank weapons further increases this threat.
        The growing vulnerability of the BMPs sets off a chain reaction that begins to undermine the entire structure of the offensive doctrine. If the BMPs are destroyed faster than the tanks accompanying them, then:

        - infantry dies before entering the battle;

        - BMPs are not capable of delivering infantry to the required point;

        - tanks are left without cover, which increases their vulnerability...

        ..In practice, this could mean the failure of an offensive operation,.." Etc., etc.
        1. -5
          29 June 2025 09: 40
          Why should we take the words of some idiot at face value? The Israelis once broke through the defense with M113, BTRM3 and captured BTR-50 and nothing worked. Practice is the measure of truth. And it is not so easy to hit an infantry fighting vehicle or a tank, especially for a poorly trained crew. And no one has cancelled the massing of forces. They made a hole in the anti-tank defense with artillery, napalm, special forces and even nuclear weapons and go wherever you want. And here mobility, amphibious capability, low fuel consumption are only a plus.
          During WWII, the Germans had most of their motorized infantry in cars and motorcycles, and there were even units on bicycles - they somehow carried out deep envelopments and encirclements.
          1. +3
            29 June 2025 09: 45
            These are the words of the marshals, generals and military theorists of that time. On whose opinion you build your theories
            Quote: Dozorny - severa
            Why should we suddenly take the words of some idiot on faith?

            Read the article, you're not an idiot.
      2. -2
        29 June 2025 17: 16
        The target has the protection of a tank.
    4. 0
      29 June 2025 16: 15
      Quote: Tlauicol
      It would be interesting to read comments like "our BMPs were created for a different war"
      So.
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Especially after the reports and meetings of generals and designers that already 50 years ago their survivability and the survivability of motorized infantry in these BMPs was assessed, to put it mildly, as extremely low.
      Extremely low without a nuclear strike on the enemy. Besides, a bunch of IFVs have already been built for 50 years. Are they all to be crushed? And what should they be replaced with? In 50 years, they created an IFV that is invulnerable to ATGMs? No. ATGMs even burn tanks. Any tanks. In the best case, you will need not one ATGM, but a pair.
      1. 0
        29 June 2025 17: 57
        So where is the nuclear strike and the attack of motorized rifle divisions? No, and there won't be.
        Why send these fragile armadas into battle without nuclear strikes? To burn the equipment and motorized riflemen? After all, without nuclear weapons, this does not work. Or maybe just admit the fallacy of the concept?
        In addition to ATGMs, there are also machine guns, grenade launchers, mines, small-caliber guns, small arms, shrapnel, drops - we still have to live to see the ATGMs of the BMP
        1. 0
          29 June 2025 18: 58
          Quote: Tlauicol
          So where is the nuclear strike and the attack of motorized rifle divisions? No, and there won't be.
          Be.
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Why send these fragile armadas into battle without nuclear strikes?
          I will repeat the question: who can withstand an ATGM strike? Who is not fragile? What is happening on land now is what used to happen at sea. Previously, a battleship could only destroy a battleship, then torpedo bombers appeared. Previously, only tanks and anti-tank artillery could fight tanks, now helicopters, infantry with ATGMs and UAVs have been added. Ships have not disappeared (battleships have disappeared), the principles of their construction and use have changed (armor has disappeared). Something similar will happen on land.
          Quote: Tlauicol
          In addition to ATGMs, there are also machine guns, grenade launchers, mines, small-caliber guns, small arms, shrapnel, drops - we still have to live to see the ATGMs of the BMP
          In fact, ATGM is the longest-range weapon (UAVs can now operate further, but this is an exception). Shrapnel, small arms, machine guns of BMPs can withstand. Mines cannot even withstand tanks.
          1. 0
            29 June 2025 19: 07
            An ATGM strike is not about fragility.
            The problem is that motorized infantry on BMPs is vulnerable to many weapons. Many times more vulnerable - and this was trumpeted back in the 70s. Low survivability called into question the entire strategy
            1. 0
              1 July 2025 21: 42
              If you don't count infantry fighting vehicles equipped with KAZ-type Trophy, then infantry fighting vehicles that can hold ATGMs basically don't exist anywhere in the world
    5. 0
      1 July 2025 21: 36
      what is there to read, bmp-3 is a 100mm cannon that should suppress enemy defenses with direct fire
  3. +4
    29 June 2025 06: 01
    It is necessary to have not only tanks (copters, helicopters or submarines with nuclear missiles, etc.), but also tactics for their use, officers who know these tactics and can apply them, as well as crews who can use this equipment. Otherwise, all of the above is an expensive pile of unnecessary hardware.
  4. +3
    29 June 2025 07: 43
    Thank you, interesting and informative. Only the author is unknown for some reason. After the article, questions involuntarily arise, if fifty years ago we thought about the problem, why hasn't our Armed Forces found a solution yet? In the West, it seems, on the contrary, they have learned their lessons and now the first place is taken out of the air defense system, gaining air supremacy and destroying everything and everyone on the ground, only then an offensive on the ground, when no one is offering any significant resistance. And don't say that they couldn't suppress Ukraine's air defense because of its quality, at the beginning of the conflict, there was not much quality. Our war is strange, that's why they couldn't, and then there was an intensification. Now it is much more difficult to do this.
    1. -1
      29 June 2025 08: 49
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      After the article, questions involuntarily arise: if fifty years ago we thought about the problem, why hasn’t a solution been found in our Armed Forces yet?

      The solution is to increase the power of artillery through the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      In the West, it seems, on the contrary, they have learned their lessons and now the first priority is to take out the air defense system, gain air supremacy and destroy everything and everyone on the ground, and only then an offensive on the ground, when no one is offering any significant resistance.

      This works well against colonies with three times the numerical and qualitative superiority, but poorly against a motivated and equipped air defense enemy. In Vietnam, the Air Force failed to bring victory.
    2. +12
      29 June 2025 08: 53
      They couldn't suppress the air defense because our Aerospace Forces are weird, not war. And we weren't prepared to conduct air operations like those that were conducted in Bura in a teacup. We don't have the same electronic warfare aircraft that the US has been counting on since Vietnam.
      In the USSR they were preparing to fight according to science. In the Russian Federation, it seems, according to concepts
      1. 0
        30 June 2025 12: 46
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        They couldn’t suppress the air defense because our Aerospace Forces are strange, and it’s not war.

        Well... there is progress in the VKS after all. During the war of 08.08.08, the aviators completely forgot about reconnaissance and air defense suppression - and sent long-range aviation to work in the enemy's air defense zone.
    3. +1
      29 June 2025 18: 22
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      There is no need to say that they were unable to suppress Ukraine's air defense because of its quality; at the beginning of the conflict, there was not much quality.

      The quality of the Ukrainian Air Defense may have been at the level of the 80s of the last century, but there was its QUANTITY. And also competent actions for its organization, oversaturation of combat formations with MANPADS and means of the Army Air Defense, withdrawal from the first strike of the main means of Air Defense and Aviation, exhibition of false targets, transition to air defense actions by the method of ambushes with external target designation and short activation of the SPC/SNC only for the capture and destruction of the target. And of course the role of NATO AWACS aircraft and EW aircraft in support of the Ukrainian Air Defense. But the main thing is QUANTITY. Which, as is known from the classics of Marxism-Leninism, always turns into Quality.
      Our Aerospace Forces were very active in suppressing air defenses from the very first minutes of the air defense, but the abundance of false targets and the above-described factors led to the Aerospace Forces ceasing to operate manned aircraft over enemy territory. Which was a reasonable decision, given the limited number of Aerospace Forces and the need to maintain significant aviation forces in other areas. Aerospace Forces initially operated with a limited number of forces. Now, over the past 3,5 years, the number of Aerospace Forces has been seriously replenished and the rate of its replenishment is increasing. But strikes are carried out mainly by FAB with UMPK and cruise missiles VB, which is reasonable and rational.
      The enemy was underestimated, their capabilities were overestimated, and the ground forces of the SVO group were not just insufficient and small ... it was literally miserable. For such a scale of BD. If the SVO group had at least 300-350 thousand active bayonets at the initial stage, everything could have ended in the summer of 2022. But there was simply nothing to fight on the ground and control the huge areas occupied in the first dash. And since there is nothing to fight with ... all the questions are to the one who prepared this "special operation". Who cherished the narrative of the Small Army all those years (before the SVO). Who started a non-war without a Ground Army, a trained reserve, mobilization reserves and a defense industry deployed to the required level. All these issues had to be resolved during the SVO itself. And the reasons for everything that happened and is happening are precisely in this. In frivolity and self-indulgence. In formalism and incompetence. In embezzlement and sloppiness of the upper echelon of the Ministry of Defense of that period. As evidenced by both criminal cases and personnel decisions.
      Quote: Alexey 1970
      Our war is strange

      That's right. On the eve of the Russo-Japanese War they were also throwing hats, but the Russian Empire could not bear the consequences of that failure and defeat - it fell apart 12 years later. And it was assembled under a different (male!) name by completely different people.
      1. 0
        Yesterday, 17: 49
        Quote: bayard
        On the eve of the Russo-Japanese War, they also threw hats, but the Russian Empire could not bear the consequences of that failure and defeat - it fell apart 12 years later.

        So you speak as if the First World War did not happen, and in general the beginning of the century was full of events - not just the Russo-Japanese War
        1. +1
          Yesterday, 22: 19
          The Russian Empire accumulated its entire monstrous foreign debt during the relatively short Russian Empire. Vite dragged Nikola into this adventure, ensured absolute unpreparedness for this war, and during the war itself, on behalf of the Russian Empire, he took 11 billion rubles in gold credit from his relatives, the French Rothschilds. And he squandered and stole all this money. It was an absolutely unpayable debt. If Nikola-2 had spent at least a tenth of this amount in the pre-war period, the Pacific Fleet would have been built on time, including at foreign shipyards, the Pacific Fleet naval bases would have been fully equipped, furnished and armed, the fairways would have been deepened, dry docks for ship repairs would have been built, and coastal batteries would have been deployed. The land army in Manchuria would have numbered no less than 500 thousand bayonets, with artillery and excess stock of shells and other ammunition. The interest alone (5% per annum) had to be paid at 550 million rubles. IN GOLD! And this is without paying off the principal amount of the loan. This cretin on the throne practically bankrupted Russia, covered us with the shame of defeats so much that we were despised by the last nag in Europe (there are enough examples from the periodicals of that time, historical documents and other evidence, even in literature). We were forced by DEBT to join the Entente. fool , to become an ally-vassal of his most bitter age-old enemy - England, and this alliance was against the country that provided its coal miners and not only the logistics of our unfortunate 2nd squadron and in every possible way sympathized - against its neighbor and cousin - Germany. This insane man really resisted, but he was cornered by the Rothschilds with DEBT, and he, like "Bunny", went to the Entente to his own and the Empire's destruction. All our troubles began then - when Witte first became the Minister of Finance, and then the Prime Minister. And only because there was a clinical idiot on the throne.
          About WWI... Do you even remember how it started? And why the hell did Nikolka go to war?? Who attacked him??
          Austria attacked Serbia?
          And France immediately declared war on Germany? (Okay, first on Austria)
          France!! Declared war on Germany. And Germany did not wait - immediately attacked it through the Ardennes.
          Well, okay - France is the aggressor, Germany responded, let them fight.
          Why the hell did Nikolka rush to save Paris?
          And for DEBTS!!!
          The same ones - to the French Rothschilds, whose puppet Macron is now assembling/proclaiming the Entente. Against us.
          So, Russia got into an unnecessary war solely on the orders of a creditor! And Nikolka got these debts during the Russian Revolution, which Witte arranged for him. WWI was a consequence of the lost Russian Revolution. The stupid little tsar rejected and removed his father's loyal assistant Sharapov and trusted the Rothschild agent, the swindler Witte. Sharapov did his best to save this fool while he was alive, the Unions he created (Russian People, Michael the Archangel, etc.) stopped the Civil War and suppressed the Revolution (Coup d'etat in translation from French) of 1905-1907. But after his death in the fall of 1911, a new World War with Russia's participation became inevitable, the Empire perished because of the fool on the throne, and only the Bolsheviks and the genius of Stalin were able to save it.
          History must be known.
          For she does not teach, she punishes for unlearned lessons.
  5. 0
    29 June 2025 08: 00
    Quote: Amateur
    It is necessary to have not only tanks (copters, helicopters or submarines with nuclear missiles, etc.), but also tactics for their use, officers who know these tactics and can apply them, as well as crews who can use this equipment. Otherwise, all of the above is an expensive pile of unnecessary hardware.

    And also the connection between the city and the village, that is, reliable, unreadable and unsuppressible communication between units and air support
  6. +2
    29 June 2025 08: 21
    Future and modern means of warfare will have to be based on three key points.
    - Secrecy.
    - Power.
    - Mobility.
    Moreover, the priorities are set in the above order.
    Even security will not play as important a role as secrecy.
    Any means of destruction must have these properties.
    As for the BBTs, they only have power and limited mobility.
    There is much to be said about creating breakthroughs and "softening" the enemy's defense in certain areas, but the war on 404 shows that a breakthrough can be easily stopped by regular drones, which, by the way, are quite stealthy, powerful, and mobile. They can appear as if from nowhere and disappear into nowhere, while causing very serious damage to troops.
    If, when creating military equipment, we necessarily endow it with the above-mentioned properties, then our army will be the most deadly on earth. But all this can result in the army subsequently being indistinguishable from ordinary civilians, since the principle of secrecy will be observed, and "civilians" will be suspected of possessing power and mobility and will be subject to distribution. Thus, the "rules" of warfare will be greatly blurred.
  7. -1
    29 June 2025 09: 17
    Quote: DesToeR
    In Vietnam, the Air Force failed to bring victory.

    They completely crushed Vietnam's air defenses; the Vietnamese forces were of course limited, but nevertheless.
  8. +2
    29 June 2025 09: 20
    Another anonymous article? Why doesn't the site automatically block something like this?
  9. -1
    29 June 2025 09: 23
    Quote: Maluck
    There is much to be said about creating breakthroughs and "softening" the enemy's defense in certain areas, but the war on 404 shows that a breakthrough can easily be stopped by conventional drones, which, by the way, are quite stealthy, powerful, and mobile.

    The war on the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR shows something completely different - the Russian Armed Forces do not have the ability to conduct large-scale operations to break through the front and encircle enemy forces. There are a number of reasons for this. Regarding drones, the attackers can also use drones as well as means of suppressing control points for these weapons and other things, including diplomatic (Ukrainian drones are also made in China), intelligence work, and intelligence work.
    The modern Russian Federation is a raw materials appendage of the West and cannot independently wage a modern war, simply for economic reasons.
  10. +2
    29 June 2025 09: 29
    Many thanks to the author, the publications are a bag of pluses.
    Someone will say that the original source is “foreign”, and this research is almost half a century old… And what, has the topic lost its relevance? Not at all, on the contrary – it just needs to be rethought.
    And one more thing: this is an example of good military analytics. If any of the readers know where one can get acquainted with modern domestic military-political analytics of a similar level, please do not hesitate to share the links.
    hi
    P.S. I'll risk suggesting that the author is Eduard Perov.
  11. -5
    29 June 2025 09: 31
    Quote: Tlauicol
    From training and combat experience since the Middle East war, it has become clear that IFVs are even more vulnerable to attack than expected, and their new generation of anti-tank weapons further increases this threat.

    And what is this statement based on? What kind of idiot wrote something there? What is the probability of a T-62 tank maintaining combat capability compared to a BMP-1 when hit in the front by an ATGM? The BMP-1 is a very fast thing - it can accelerate from 20 km/h to 80 in 5-8 seconds, and no one has cancelled out ricochets.
    1. +4
      29 June 2025 14: 34
      What is the probability of a T-62 tank maintaining combat capability compared to a BMP-1 when hit in the front by an ATGM?

      The T-62 does have a stabilizer of some sort, the BMP-1 fires strictly from a standing position. The BMP-1 commander has no visibility.
  12. -1
    29 June 2025 09: 45
    Quote: Azim77
    This is the most correct conclusion. As when fishing, you choose how and what (tackle) to catch, and depending on the theater of military operations, tactics. And for this, you need to have different means and weapons to choose from.

    Well, actually, if the defense is not suppressed, it doesn’t matter how much the BMP weighs, 11 tons or 100.
  13. +1
    29 June 2025 13: 15
    Quote: Dozorny - severa
    Why should we suddenly take the words of some idiot on faith? The Israelis once broke through the defense with M113, BTRM3 and captured BTR-50 and nothing worked. Practice is the measure of truth.


    The opponents were too different in training, tactical skill, intelligence level, etc. Pardon me, but the Arabs (except for the Syrians, perhaps) were just Papuans who didn't really know how to fight. Egyptian officers bought their positions like fruit at the market.
    If the opponents were approximately equal, such breakthroughs would be associated with losses that go beyond acceptable limits.
  14. +1
    29 June 2025 13: 18
    Quote: Dozorny - severa
    They completely destroyed Vietnam's air defense,


    They did not crush it, despite their huge losses. And they could not destroy the North Vietnamese Air Force, despite their huge numerical advantage.
  15. +2
    29 June 2025 13: 43
    Awesome article. And what do we see? That they have gone down the path of a nuclear strike. Like we'll sweep everything away, and the problem will solve itself, and down the path of a swift strike. That's where the roots of the problems of the SVO come from. There are no standards for protected infantry fighting vehicles, no sensible artillery fire systems, no ground air force. As always, they have chosen the path of those who wait.
    And this is a consequence of ideological problems. The cult of Victory-madness - like our grandfathers did it and they were successful. And the policy of Leopold the Cat.
    I'll explain about the Victory Mania. There are a lot of couch turbopatriots here. Victory Mania is a blind rest on the laurels of ancestors with maximum pathos. And no desire for an impartial analysis of their actions, nor with the realization that the situation has changed. A striking example are the Armenians. With their chatter about "the Azeris have no military spirit." However, the French in the 30s are about the same.
  16. -1
    29 June 2025 15: 10
    I think it's better to have a bad ride than to go into battle on foot, like now on your own, if you're lucky, then a motorcycle or a Zhiguli, but I think that even a bad BMP 1 is better than a Zhiguli, but the modernization of BMP 1 and 2 is another matter, protection from mines and drones, but these are the problems of our top people and the military, who live on our taxes, which we pay regularly, plus we help the guys as much as we can. And in the USSR, the army was provided with money from the sale of vodka...
  17. -2
    29 June 2025 15: 30
    Quote from: ln_ln
    The T-62 does have a stabilizer of some sort, the BMP-1 fires strictly from a standing position. The BMP-1 commander has no visibility.

    That's true, but the NO has a good view. I don't think that the presence of a stabilizer will help in case of an ATGM hit, behind the armor plate of the T-62 there are tanks-racks and MV, and the BMP 1-1,5 to MV and 2 to BK, and no one has cancelled ricochet.
  18. -1
    29 June 2025 18: 11
    So that's why the BMP has no armor, and the BMP3 also has a bunch of shells inside - sabotage!
    1. 0
      1 July 2025 21: 51
      BMPs don't have armor like a tank because it's expensive, just like it's expensive to create a BMP with tank armor
      and BMPs need to be churned out in thousands and thousands
      Even NATO can't afford an IFV with that level of protection
      then tanks and self-propelled guns with shells inside are also sabotage, even the Grad MLRS are also sabotage, the crew sits in an almost ordinary Ural and behind them are 40 122mm Nursov
      1. -1
        3 July 2025 06: 28
        1) The Grad does not storm a strongpoint by approaching it with a machine gun/grenade launcher shot. But the Grad also needs an armored cabin, so as not to get a shrapnel in the belly when retreating. That is why Grads are independently covered with steel from the garbage dump, which is quite shameful and looks like a reproach to the Ministry of Defense and its theorists.

        2) What is tank armor? Tank armor is the protection of the course angles to resist the APFSDS of another tank. Now this is losing its relevance.
        Protection against ATGMs and drones (essentially the same RPG) comes to the fore. That is why DZ (including on the grill) should become standard on the BMP.
        But a tank, unlike an infantry fighting vehicle, has all-round protection from autocannons, that's what I mean when I talk about an infantry fighting vehicle. This protection can be provided by either cast 80mm tank armor or spaced aluminum-composite armor.
        The BMP attacks strongholds in the same row as tanks, but has no armor, while carrying shells in its hull.
        - need protection of the sides from autocannons
        - standard ERA is needed to protect against ATGMs
        - improved mine protection is needed
        - a ramp is needed
        - need a remote module for autocannon + anti-tank guns
        - we need to abandon the buoyancy! Leave the buoyancy only for the Marines and Airborne Forces, but with additional add-on armor protection modules.
        - Refusal to produce BMD is like refusal of the theory of mass landing. Airborne forces should be transferred to BMP3 since it has a good trough-shaped layout for buoyancy. BMD should be left only for a few elite units that will have landing training as a basis.

        This is my vision.
        1. -1
          9 July 2025 00: 23
          this is some kind of bullshit

          Grad is just within the range of 155mm howitzers
          Grad was created on the basis of a regular Ural for a reason, it's cheap

          Combined tank armor is designed not so much to protect against APFSDS as against various cumulative ammunition, including dz and kaz systems, created specifically for this threat

          T-90 and others do not have all-round protection against autocannons, it can withstand 20-25mm caliber, but against NATO 30-50mm BOPS it is a question

          BMPs should not, in principle, assault strongholds by landing troops in front of the trenches; this is a light tank for direct infantry support
          the problem is the inability of armored vehicles to suppress the enemy in a stronghold, and then finally clear the trenches with infantry

          protection of the sides from what autocannons? if from domestic 30mm, then it is the BMP Marder 1A3, if from NATO ammunition, then such an BMP does not exist, although it may intend...

          DZ against tandem ATGMs has not yet been created, and against impact nuclei too

          Tanks don't have this anti-mine protection, but infantry fighting vehicles definitely need it, although it won't protect you from mine barriers and cumulative mines, but it might come in handy

          the very fact that they try to make an emergency exit in the form of a regular door on hinges in the ramps indicates that even in the West they cannot ensure the reliability of this system, what can we say about the Russian army, where everything that can break breaks and most likely domestic crews will simply weld the ramp shut and everyone will climb through the door

          a remote module, this is a turret equipped with an autocannon up to 30 mm, no triplexes, packed to the brim with electrics, electronics and cartridges, all of this burns beautifully when hit, how to put it all out, who will repair this high-tech, what should the crew do during the battle, if all this remote suddenly malfunctions, goes into failure

          again these armchair experts with their buoyancy, well, take off all the watercraft equipment from the BMP-3, you have a non-floating BMP, what's the problem???
          Why is no one able to think a little and understand that the Ministry of Defense has no money
          there's only enough money for a light-weight infantry fighting vehicle, and if it's light, then why the hell doesn't it float?
          naturally, if the Ministry of Defense had a budget like the US and could then afford an infantry fighting vehicle with a combat weight of 30 tons, the question of buoyancy would not even arise, because it is obvious that with such a weight, you can forget about forcing water obstacles without preparation

          the problem with the bmd is not in the machine itself, but in the military aviation, we need to force the air force to replace all the il-76s with something bigger and more powerful, or stop showing off and create a bmd for the current capabilities of domestic aviation

          a small number of elite units are deployed behind enemy lines in specially prepared SUVs to carry out special operations
          The domestic airborne forces exist primarily to parachute into any corner of the largest country in the world called Russia, where for thousands of kilometers around there may be no one at all except border guards
          and NATO can carry out an operation like Kursk anywhere along the entire state border, who is capable of quickly moving tens of thousands of kilometers in any direction, even if bridges are destroyed, railroads and airfield runways are damaged, who is capable of this???
          1. 0
            9 July 2025 03: 00
            It's crap when they weld steel sheets from a landfill onto a Grad, and the Ministry of Defense and people like you think the armored cabin is unnecessary.

            Are there many 50mm autocannons on the battlefield now? They make protection against the most common and probable ones, and that's 25-30mm.

            I know how to storm defensive midfielders from the words of the person who stormed them.

            If you take floating equipment off a BMP3, it won't get factory armor and ERA. But of course it can get barbecue and sheets from a dump.

            The ramp is a standard BMP everywhere, except for the bruised ones, because it allows you to quickly leave the BMP and load there or, for example, to attack the wounded. In the BMP3, a genius thought up a passage that makes you crawl there practically on your belly, and I'm not even talking about the front hatches for dystrophics without armor. A ramp with a door is logical in case of failure of the ramp lowering system - here you can see that people approached the creation of the equipment with soul and brain.

            It's better to put out the turret than yourself... and run out through the engine throwing corpses off the seats, which the design genius placed right at the exit. In general, transporting troops in something that throws a turret from a mine or RPG is of course a mega idea.

            The problem with the BMD is the outdated concept of combat from the 1950s and the theory of mass landing of equipment behind enemy lines (the theory of swimming comes from there). A large aircraft will make this joke even more fun. Of course, the railway tracks can be damaged... but the transport can also be destroyed with a Stinger instead of everyone on board.
            Examples of successful mass landings are unknown since World War II. And now there is a general refusal of this. We also recently took a course on this and during the reform of the Airborne Forces, not everyone will have landing training. At the same time, there will be more heavy equipment.
            1. -1
              11 July 2025 00: 48
              I don't care about the armored cabin, the explosion of a 155mm shell nearby can lead to the detonation of the entire grad package and we're not even talking about the sunburners, who are forced to drive even closer

              40mm STA, an analogue of 40mm from Bofors, is installed on modern armored vehicles of France, Britain, and in principle can be distributed to NATO, it seems to penetrate only 140mm of armor from a kilometer
              there is 35/50mm bushmaster 3
              The Stryker BTR has started to be equipped with the 30mm Bushmaster 2, which is being converted to 40mm
              and of course there are BOPS on top of everything, in Ukraine the last century is constantly at war

              BMP-3 is not loaded with additional armor because the chassis and transmission will immediately crumble and there is little exhaust from this, they will penetrate anyway, a different level of protection is needed
              and this requires money and industry capable of it, and the Ministry of Defense has neither one nor the other, the maximum that can be afforded is mass production of BMP-2 and even that is not a fact, otherwise by the next war we may be left without armored vehicles at all

              I repeat, the ramp means a very loaded hydraulic drive, which should also take up some space in the landing compartment, another consumer of electricity
              and for the crew this is not the most important thing compared to the engine, weapons or chassis, they will simply say that it is broken and they do not care at all
              at best you'll have to climb through a small door, at worst sit on top of the car
              BMP 3 is an excellent example of creating a light tank within 20 tons with the ability to transport infantry in comfortable conditions in the center of mass of the vehicle
              What kind of soul, what kind of brain goes into creating technology, are you kidding???
              Western BMPs are created without straining the brain, the combat weight is like the early T-64 and T-72, they cost like a tank, while the armament and armor are mediocre for such weight and cost
              some armored personnel carriers rather than infantry fighting vehicles

              It's unlikely to be put out, more like with the Abrams, they set the ammunition stowage on fire, we leave the vehicle, an extremely economical way to ruin a very expensive piece of equipment
              you'll still have to burn in a BMP, if the engine is in the front, then the fuel tanks are somewhere in the back, plus all these powerful autocannons have very large cartridges with gunpowder, in the same best European BMP - the Swedish SV9040 there are 200 40mm rounds, 48 ​​of them in a drum under the turret, like the BMP-3, the rest are scattered in stowage, I doubt that if the gunpowder flares up and the shells start to explode, you'll have time to jump out, even with a ramp
              By the way, they want to get rid of the 3mm cannon on the BMP-100 in favor of a 57mm cannon, because the domestic 30mm are too weak and can do practically nothing against NATO BMPs
              I saw a 57mm cartridge from the S-60 anti-aircraft gun, this will be inside some promising Russian infantry fighting vehicle in quantities of at least 100 pieces for sure and it will flare up very colorfully if something hits this infantry fighting vehicle

              and what does the BMD problem have to do with it, the airborne forces of different countries try to drop different equipment with the landing force, simply because the paratroopers won't get very far on foot
              In terms of technology, we are the only ones with a large fleet of tracked vehicles
              the us airborne forces had the airborne sheridan, in the 80s the experimental m8, the germans had their wiesel
              it all comes down to funding
              why land troops directly on the enemy, with their stingers, anti-tank missiles and other things, religion does not allow landing troops in another place where you can group up, get on a BMD and then move on the enemy
              Well, maybe you're right, considering the degradation of the Russian army, where the airborne forces and marines are used as regular motorized infantry, since the motorized rifle troops are much inferior to them, then the former don't need to know how to jump with a parachute, and the latter don't need to capture bridgeheads and ports from the sea
              Let the NATO airborne forces and marines learn this when they are used for their intended purpose against Russia
              oh yeah swimming theory
              The crossing of the Seversky Donets (5-13 May 2022) was a military operation on the Seversky Donets River near the villages of Belogorovka and Dronovka. During it, units of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation attempted to cross the Seversky Donets River at least four times and create a bridgehead necessary to encircle units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Lisichansk-Severodonetsk agglomeration.

              The losses during the failed operation were among the largest single losses of Russian troops during its war with Ukraine[4]: the advancing Russian forces lost more than 80 tanks and armored vehicles and about 485 soldiers killed.

              They may be driving us crazy about the losses, but the fact is that they found a water barrier all over Ukraine, tried to cross it, built a pontoon park and couldn't...
              They fled from Kherson because of the Dnieper, now during the offensive they rely on different reservoirs and rivers, bridges are constantly being blown up
              yes yes yes, floating equipment, why it is needed, it is not clear...
              1. -1
                11 July 2025 18: 06
                The city is moving back without a BC and a return attack hits it on the way back.
                1. 0
                  Yesterday, 18: 59
                  Grad can be caught during loading and on the approach to the firing position, people are at great risk being near a large amount of explosives and gunpowder, just like on other self-propelled artillery, and nothing further fights
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 23: 31
                    They can, but they can also fall off a shelf. And when you're wearing body armor, they can get to places where there's no body armor. So what if you don't wear body armor?

                    I saw a Grad whose cabin was riddled with shrapnel. Do you think the driver will drive lightly next time, as usual, or will he weld on some iron sheets?
                    1. 0
                      Today, 09: 27
                      it's not about the cabin, but about the proximity to a large amount of explosives and gunpowder, practically unprotected from fragments
                      what do tanks with protection from panzerfausts and caliber shells have to do with it
              2. -1
                11 July 2025 18: 12
                I've seen a bunch of videos where the BMP3 is literally annihilated by an ATGM and a mine, but I haven't seen such videos about the Bradley - they usually run out of it.
                Light tank... or maybe the infantry needs a normal IFV, and not a light tank where the troops sit hugging the shells? Maybe then they will use the BMP3 as an IFV, and not as a tank, in which they completely abandoned the troops?
                1. -1
                  Yesterday, 21: 44
                  I watched a video on Lost Armor, there are BMP-3s without a turret, but most often they are burnt out, when the turret falls into the hull
                  for some reason, burnt-out Bradleys very rarely have a turret that has fallen into the hull
                  Both the BMP-3 and the Bradley are aluminum and this is a sign of a strong fire that melted the hull, and the Bradley should actually have 900 rounds for the gun, not counting the rounds for the machine gun and anti-tank guided missiles, this leads to the idea that the Bradleys are driving half-empty in terms of ammunition
                  and it is noticeable that about half of the damaged Bradleys only had an open hatch, apparently the VSU soldiers were not trained enough to use the ramp
                  to annihilate the mz bmp-3 it is necessary for the ATGM or RPG to hit the lower part of the hull, if the cumulative jet hits the turret or the upper part of the hull nothing should happen, by the way in both the bmp-2 and the bradley the ammunition stowage for the guns is located below the turret, as in the bmp-3
                  if the T-72/90 drives its third roller onto a mine, it might throw the turret, because the AZ is firmly bolted to the bottom, the T-64/80 and BMP-3 MZ are bolted to the turret and essentially hang in the air, if you need to put an anti-mine sheet, there is somewhere, but everyone is happy if nothing is done

                  and what is this normal BMP, if this is like a hint at the Bradley, then it is more likely a heavy armored personnel carrier, in the US army there are essentially two armored personnel carriers, one light with a 12,7 machine gun, the other with a 25mm cannon
                  the Americans are trying to give birth to a light tank with a 105mm cannon, in the description of which it is directly written that first of all it should pick at fortifications and not equipment, it was 25 years ago, there is no tank, because it turned out to be under 40 tons and against the background of the T-72 it looks very bad, and why do the Americans need a separate light tank, because the Bradley with a 25mm autocannon, well, not very ...
                  Many people in NATO have tried to offer light tanks based on BMPs, but there are no people willing to accept such contraptions into service.
                  because this is another separate item of expenses, logistics, another vehicle that needs to be taken into account in the line of MBT, BMP, BTR
                  in the West they understand the inferiority of NATO infantry fighting vehicles, therefore they developed fragmentation cannons with programmable air burst for 30mm autocannons to compensate for the lack of powerful AFV in both tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, with fragments that fly in a wide cone and help the autocannon reach infantry in hard-to-reach places
                  Naturally, all this costs as much as a Boeing wing, and the problem of infantry digging around in trenches, houses and other shelters has not gone away
                  NATO MBTs are no help here either, because they usually don't have OFS in their ammunition, why, a clear example of this is the Turkish Leopard 2A4 in Syria, it was standing on a hill shooting towards some city in front of it, suddenly an ATGM flies in and the Leopard breaks into a bunch of very small fragments
                  domestic tanks nervously smoke on the sidelines after what they saw
                  The US Army's Abrams doesn't have OFS in its ammunition, but they say the Marines' Abrams do, guys with balls, don't worry, because the detonation of OFS in the Abrams' ammunition stowage would instantly turn it into a convertible
                  in 16, information leaked out that the Germans had developed new tank shells, where some of the explosives were replaced with some kind of phlegmatizer, which sharply reduced sensitivity and made it less likely that such a shell would explode in a tank's ammunition stowage, but naturally the power of such a shell was reduced and its effectiveness was probably at the level of a regular 90mm shell
                  but as a fact, let's note that NATO avoids OFS in their armored vehicles, and here, yes, everything is hardcore and in tanks there are regular OFS and in BMPs
                  the same thing in the infantry, the power of standard hand grenades is not enough, here is a homemade assault charge made from a can of energy drink, stuffed to the brim with TNT, now that's a completely different matter
                  there is no tank or BMP-3 at hand, and a house with VS-XNUMXs inside needs to be folded, we take an anti-tank mine and throw it into their window

                  in general, according to normal tactics, the first two waves of assaults should be carried out by armored personnel carriers, this is their direct and immediate responsibility, and the infantry fighting vehicle from behind provides fire support and brings in the third wave of assaults to consolidate the results of the attack carried out by the previous assaults, but in war all sorts of things happen
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 23: 19
                    You need to watch videos on YouTube, khokhlo - I've seen at least 3 where a BMP3 turns into a fireball while moving from one ATGM. There is one from a mine. And at the site of the explosion, literally nothing remains - the explosion is stronger than that of the T80.

                    As I was told, the Ukrainians usually remove the ATGMs from Bradley, because they are afraid of detonation and it’s hard to hit anything with it in a fever.

                    The M113 is more of an armored personnel carrier - it does its job of transporting infantry. Its armor is +/- like the BMP3, only more comfortable. And it is mass-produced... there are tens of thousands of them. The Jews even hung DH on it, I think - that's what should be standard on an infantry fighting vehicle.

                    P.S. I'm not the one giving you the minuses. I'll give you a + because I'm not minusing an opinion.
                    1. 0
                      Today, 10: 34
                      ATGM is a thin cumulative jet that hits everything it encounters in its path, on Lostmar I saw a BMP-3 hit, which apparently threw the turret, the FPV dived from above and behind the BMP and probably hit the MZ under the turret with a jet
                      you need to look where the ATGM flew, if it hits the middle of the hull or the turret, then nothing will happen, the most dangerous is the ATGM with a shock core, which flies over the tank and attacks the roof vertically downwards
                      judging by the footage, if there was a torch of fire first and then an explosion, then they set fire to the gunpowder in the cartridges, which then led to the detonation of the shells, that is, they did not hit the shells themselves, otherwise there would have been an immediate explosion
                      the explosion can't be stronger than the T-80, it's just that the aluminum body of the BMP is weaker than the steel tank
                      I saw a BMP-3 on a Lostmar that was backing up, ran over a mine, dropped a track and that was it, I also saw a Bradley that ran over a barrier at an intersection, or a reinforced land mine, and it exploded like that, a torch of fire burst out of both the hatches on the turret and the hatch above the troop compartment
                      There is an opinion that the Bradley's enhanced mine protection is compensation for the reduced ground clearance to 330 or 380 mm due to the increased weight of the vehicle.

                      Apparently, they not only remove the ATGMs, but also the 25 boxes of 600mm cartridges in the hull, because they are placed in the fender recesses right behind the troops, and accordingly, if it flies into these fender recesses, the flame will be no worse than that of the BMP-3, maybe even better
                      we need to take an example, loading an incomplete ammunition complement of 3 shells, 10mm shells, about 30 pieces into a BMP-150, so that it would be enough for an attack, you can load the shells only into the stowage under the seats of the troops, and not into the drum itself and manually push them into the gun
                      Judging by the BMP-3, whose turret fell into the hull, 100mm shells were not loaded into them

                      M113 is an armored personnel carrier, in terms of characteristics it is like MT-LB, only heavier, Americans generally like to make vehicles shorter and taller, so that they can be more easily detected and hit
                      On May 9, 2025, a modernized BMP-2 was shown on Red Square, this is such a big hint about what the Russian army can count on
                      BMP-3 is too complicated, it has an aluminum body, hydromechanical transmission with a hydrostatic steering mechanism, a 500-600 horsepower engine, dual guns, BMP-2 is much easier to produce and cheaper
                      NATO infantry fighting vehicles with a combat weight of 30-40 tons are beyond our means
  19. 0
    29 June 2025 22: 00
    In mid-April, I came across an article online about the same thing with tanks at the turn of the 20s and 30s of the 20th century. Some military theorist of that time claimed that rapid-fire artillery of 40-XNUMX mm caliber made the tank expensive and not for a long battle, if it gets there, a toy. How many years ago did the confrontation between the shield and the sword begin? But, no matter how blasphemous it may sound: this confrontation is one of the most powerful engines of technological progress.
    Yes, the article is a plus.