Military Review

About new submarines and their bases

93
Until 2020, the Russian Navy will receive 24 new submarines. At least eight of them (according to some reports, ten) belong to the class of strategic submarines. The rest are multi-purpose nuclear and diesel-electric with torpedo and rocket-torpedo armaments. Despite the fact that only a small fraction of the planned submarines has been built to date, the Navy command is already considering various issues related to their future service. For example, the question of the distribution of submarines by fleets. The financial and political cataclysms of the eighties and nineties seriously hit the plans of the fleet, as a result of which now the need for new technology is higher than it could be with a constant and systematic renewal of the material part.


With regard to strategic submarines with ballistic missiles, the basing problem can be considered resolved. Due to geographical, strategic, legal and a number of other reasons, such submarines have always been part of only the Northern and Pacific fleets. Baltic and Black Sea, with all its historical significance for the Russian fleet, always received only diesel-electric submarines armed with torpedoes and / or anti-ship missiles. This fact suggests that over the next years, multipurpose submarines and SSBNs will continue to be part of the Northern and Pacific fleets. In the case of strategic missile carriers, the main advantage of such a basing is that the submarine can quickly enter the combat patrol area, which must meet a number of requirements: in terms of area, distance from the enemy’s PLO forces and assets, optimality in the reach of the assigned targets, and the effectiveness of their forces ensuring combat stability, etc.
The specificity of the tasks, namely the attack of the enemy's underwater and surface ships, does not require a similar approach to basing multi-purpose boats. Therefore, they can be placed on bases close to the patrol areas where there is the greatest threat.

An excellent example of such a base is the Black Sea Fleet, which has direct access to the Mediterranean region, and from there to the Atlantic Ocean. It is worth recalling that the Mediterranean is one of the most important geopolitical and strategic areas. There are several reasons for this importance. First, as already mentioned, the possibility of access to the Atlantic. Secondly, ships and submarines of a potential enemy, while in the Mediterranean, can hit objects on Russian territory. Thirdly, we should not forget about the sea shipping routes and the South Stream gas pipeline under construction. All these communications are also in the area of ​​responsibility of the Black Sea Fleet.

No less important for the country is the Baltic Fleet. As in the case of the Black Sea, in the immediate vicinity of its bases lie sea routes and the Nord Stream gas pipeline. In addition, it is the ships of the Baltic Fleet that have the most convenient and shortest access to the northeastern part of the Atlantic Ocean. Also, we should not forget about the possible missile attack of the enemy from these areas. Thus, the Baltic Fleet can and must also carry out a search and, if necessary, the destruction of enemy ships and submarines.

The area of ​​responsibility of nuclear and diesel-electric submarines of the Northern Fleet with missile-torpedo weapons is almost the entire Arctic Ocean. For several decades, this region has been of great interest militarily, since in fact it is a very convenient place to launch ballistic missiles from submarines. Therefore, in the foreseeable future, the submarines of the Northern Fleet will not remain without work and will continue to monitor the appearance of ships and submarines in the region.

Finally, the Pacific Fleet. The Pacific Ocean, as well as the Arctic Ocean, is one of the main areas of patrol of strategic submarines of various countries. Now Russian, American and Chinese ballistic-missile submarines on board are going on trips. In addition, surface fleets belonging to several states are present in the region. Thus, the cover of the east coast of Russia and its protection from a nuclear missile strike from this direction entirely falls on the Pacific Fleet.

As you can see, all the operational-strategic associations of the Russian Navy, with the exception of the Caspian flotilla, have a number of tasks, which require submarines armed with torpedoes and cruise missiles. Thus, submarines of similar types must be commissioned into all fleets. At the same time there are a number of factors that, with all their desire, will not allow to do this quickly and with maximum effect. For example, now, due to the lack of appropriate infrastructure, it is planned to equip the Black Sea and Baltic fleets only with diesel-electric submarines. Nuclear still remain the prerogative of the North and Pacific.

Announced plans for the launch of 2020 24 submarines include the construction of eight strategic submarines of the 955 and 955 "Borey" projects, at least seven to eight multi-purpose boats of the 885 and 885М "Ash" projects, as well as at least six diesel-electric submarines 636 Varshavyanka project. It is also planned to bring the project 677 "Lada" and begin serial construction of such boats. The status of the last project still raises some questions, but by 2020, or even much earlier, the situation should be clarified.

B-380 in the PD-16 float. Sevastopol. South Bay, 2008 year.


B-871 "Alrosa" in Sevastopol


Consider the state of the "park" of non-strategic submarines in the Russian Navy. The Black Sea Fleet currently has only two diesel-electric submarines of the 641B projects (B-380 “Holy Prince George”) and 877B (B-871 “Alrosa”). It is worth noting that the B-380 submarine has been under repair for several years, its future prospects sometimes become the subject of controversy. The submarine B-871 "Alrosa" serves with the 1990 year, and at the beginning of the two thousandth was repaired. Thus, in fact, the Black Sea Fleet has only one submarine capable of serving and performing the assigned tasks.

B-806 "Dmitrov"


In the Baltic Fleet, the situation is slightly better. As part of this union there are two diesel-electric submarines of 877 (B-227 "Vyborg") and 877EKM (B-806 "Dmitrov") projects. Both of these submarines began service in the eighties, and in the second half of the nineties and the beginning of the two thousandth underwent an average repair. Also in the Baltic was supposed to serve a new submarine B-585 "St. Petersburg", built on the project 677. However, due to numerous problems with the power plant, it is still in trial operation and will not be accepted into the fleet's combat strength. Failures of this particular submarine led to the current situation with the project Lada 677.



The best situation with submarines armed with torpedoes and cruise missiles is observed in the Northern Fleet. It includes 17 nuclear submarines of this class of five projects and 7 diesel-electric two projects. The oldest submarines of the Northern Fleet (B-239 "Karp" of the 945 project, as well as the B-401 "Novosibirsk" and B-402 "Vologda" of the 877 project) began their service in the 1984 year, and the newest (K-335 "Gepard" ) serves with 2001 year. About a third of all multi-purpose and diesel-electric submarines of the Northern Fleet are currently under repair or undergoing modernization.

In the Pacific, 11 serves as multipurpose nuclear submarines of the 971 and 949А projects, as well as seven 877 diesel-electric submarines. Unfortunately, most of these submarines for various reasons can not serve and patrol specified areas. At the same time, with regard to the age of technology, the Pacific Fleet is almost as good as the Northern Fleet.

As we see, the Black Sea and Baltic fleets are in need of new submarines with missile and torpedo weapons most of all. From official sources it is known that in the coming years, the Black Sea Fleet will receive six new diesel-electric submarines of the 636.3 project. In the future, the construction of such submarines for the Baltic Fleet is not excluded. In addition, to equip these two operational-strategic associations in the future it is planned to build non-nuclear submarines of the refined 677 project, but the state of the latter still raises a lot of questions. Therefore, in the near future, the Baltic seamen, unfortunately, will not receive new non-nuclear submarines.



Earlier it was reported that several submarines project 677 will be built for the Northern Fleet. However, for the time being, the main hopes for the renewal of this alliance are connected with the nuclear submarines of the 885 and 885М “Ash” projects. It is already known that the head boat of this project K-560 “Severodvinsk” will be part of the Northern Fleet by the end of the current 2013 year. On the second submarine of the series, which received the name "Kazan", so far there is no such information, as well as the following 5-6 submarines. Most likely, the "Ash" will be distributed between the Northern and Pacific Fleets. As for the service of these submarines in the Baltic or Black Seas, this scenario is unlikely. As already mentioned, the Black Sea and Baltic fleets do not yet have the appropriate infrastructure, which does not allow them to operate ships with nuclear power plants.

Finally, it is worth mentioning the theme of arming new non-strategic boats. All three projects provide for the use of the same systems. These are unified 533-mm torpedo tubes with the possibility of firing torpedoes and Caliber missiles. Also, all boats can use mines, ammunition which, however, reduces the stock of torpedoes or missiles. From the other boats in the arms aspect, the “Ash” project is significantly different. In addition to torpedo tubes, these multipurpose SSNs are equipped with eight shafts with four launchers for the Onyx P-800 cruise missiles. Torpedo and mine armament corresponds to the projects 636 and 677.

When using Caliber family missiles (3М-54 line), submarines are capable of attacking enemy ships from a distance of 220-300 kilometers, depending on the specific type of rocket used. In the case of the use of caliber anti-submarine missiles, the range is reduced to 40-50 kilometers. The “Onyx” missiles of the submarines of the 885 and 885М projects have approximately the same characteristics as the “Caliber” and are capable of hitting surface targets at a distance of up to 300 kilometers.

On the basis of information about the range of the missiles, we can draw appropriate conclusions about the potential of submarines, in particular, about their possible combat work in a particular area. For example, in theory, several submarines of the Black Sea Fleet can block a significant part of the Mediterranean Sea and nearby land, thereby significantly hampering the movement of enemy ships, and also taking on some of the land targets. The same can be said about the new submarines of the Baltic Fleet, which are capable of conducting a similar operation in their area of ​​responsibility. Of course, we should not forget about the detection of targets, the need for hidden movement and anti-submarine means of a potential enemy. Nevertheless, it is theoretically possible to block a large area with several boats.

As you can see, all the main units of the Russian Navy need new submarines capable of fighting enemy ships and submarines. The past years have seriously undermined the combat potential of the existing equipment and therefore urgent updating is required. However, the economic and production capabilities of the country do not allow for a few years to fully restore production with the pace of the sixties or seventies. Nevertheless, the construction of new submarines continues and is gradually gaining momentum. Therefore, from concern about the future of the submarine fleet, you can move on to equally important and useful matters, for example, to prepare the infrastructure for the newest submarines.


On the materials of the sites:
http://deepstorm.ru/
http://russian-ships.info/
http://ria.ru/
http://vz.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://flotprom.ru/
http://ckb-rubin.ru/
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  1. Romn
    Romn April 12 2013 08: 44
    10
    Start work is given, soon more and more new submarines will begin to appear, it remains only to wait! Good luck in your endeavors!
    1. saymonz
      saymonz April 12 2013 08: 58
      31 th
      Quote: Romn
      new submarines

      Again the non-serial zoo named after potkov? No, thanks.
      1. Misantrop
        Misantrop April 12 2013 23: 39
        +4
        New concepts are being tested on non-serial boats. And a new technique. Is it better to start a series with Lada and ... find out that it is unsuccessful in a number of key parameters?
    2. Sirocco
      Sirocco April 12 2013 09: 46
      10
      Since such a screech has risen on this branch, then we are on the right path good Not to the taste of the Western democrats, and their pocket mongrels, screaming here, restoring the former might of the Russian Navy. The future of Russia is submerged, and its safety. soldier
      1. alex20081308
        alex20081308 April 12 2013 10: 04
        34
        Native. I am a senior assistant to the strategic commander. Second rank captain. I have access to the independent management of two projects of strategic submarine missile carriers. Do you really think that I am less than yours for the fate of the fleet. But I know the inside of the submariner’s service. And I know how much time it takes to roll a new boat, how much time it takes to put together a semblance of a used crew for it, how much time it takes for the iron and crew to turn into one mechanism. And I know a lot more. Therefore, catching up and overtaking slogans is good for the layman. For 6 years we won’t stand 24 nuclear submarines. And if we build, then wait for the new = KURSKOV = and = Komsomoltsev =. There are no miracles, all the more so in this area. And those who shouted first of all will be to blame = LET'S LET'S = And money is not the most important thing here. Here, practice and practical refinement are the criteria of truth.
        1. Sirocco
          Sirocco April 12 2013 10: 46
          +2
          You know, I’m not asking for your relatives. This time. Secondly, building ships, and going on ships, these are different things, like heaven and earth. And let us give God to God, and Caesar’s Caesar’s. And we won’t let bubbles in here, and find out who the cave ranger is and what access you have. And here it is your LET'S LET'S, thanks to this slogan, aspiration, won the SECOND WORLD hi I have the honor.
          1. alex20081308
            alex20081308 April 12 2013 10: 53
            +3
            To build is half the trouble. But debug and run-in is the second half. And the second half is much more complicated and longer. As for the gain of the Second World War, you are bent. We won the Second World War, and lost the Second World War. The proof is that the USSR is not on the map right now, but the USA and Germany live. Well, and then if you do not mind human lives .......... God will judge you.
            1. Sirocco
              Sirocco April 12 2013 11: 04
              -4
              Quote: alex20081308
              As for the gain of the Second World War, you are bent. We won the Second World War, and lost the Second World War.

              You have strange ideas about history. Are you a case of cautorang not from the American subfloor?
              Quote: alex20081308
              . Well, and then if you do not mind human lives .......... God is your judge.

              Then you went too far, show a quote where I called or incited to kill? am ugly as it turns out with you. fool You work for the public. God will judge us. In a year we’ll see.
              1. alex20081308
                alex20081308 April 12 2013 11: 09
                11
                It is with the American, and I also work for Japan and the intelligence of Trinidad and Tobago.
                Quote: Sirocco
                And here it is your LET'S LET'S, thanks to this slogan, aspiration, won the SECOND WORLD

                I would like to win the rest of the war (if any) without using this cry. We still need to draw lessons from history.
                1. Sirocco
                  Sirocco April 12 2013 11: 23
                  +2
                  Quote: alex20081308
                  And here it is your LET'S LET'S, thanks to this slogan, aspiration, won the SECOND WORLD

                  You probably forgot that the Soviet Union entered World War II, not at all with carts and cavalry. There were tanks worthy for that time, and aircraft. But our LET'S LET'S GO come from the fact that not only Germany fought with us, but the entire military potential of Europe. As always, we are alone against everyone. And they survived, and WIN. And about the lessons of history. As history shows, it teaches practically no one and does not teach anything. How many copies are already broken, about the fact that whoever comes to us with a sword, that sword with his sword and get. And they all climb, for the next kick. laughing
                  1. Delta
                    Delta April 12 2013 14: 43
                    +6
                    Quote: Sirocco
                    And about the lessons of history. As history shows, it teaches practically no one and does not teach anything. How many copies are already broken, about the fact that whoever comes to us with a sword will receive it with this sword in the ass. And they all climb, for the next kick

                    And why necessarily about wars? Just above, Alex gave an example of Komsomolets, Kursk, K-429, K-219 and others, ruined by OWN hands (without wars) (there is a long list). So maybe in peacetime, after all, it makes sense not to live with slogans and not with daring, but professionalism and calculation
                    1. alex20081308
                      alex20081308 April 12 2013 14: 51
                      11
                      Thank you, but not only in peacetime and in wartime it is necessary to live like this. You understood me correctly. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the feat of one is a miscalculation of the other and, as a rule, of a superior. not only in war, but also in civilian life.
                      1. Patriot of Russia
                        Patriot of Russia April 12 2013 19: 17
                        +2
                        promises, promises ... meanwhile in Russia
                        http://goloviznin.ru/vvmure/table3.jpg

                        The Russian Navy in 2012 received five warships
                        http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130221/923967404.html

                    2. Nitup
                      Nitup April 12 2013 22: 16
                      -1
                      Do you know for certain what and with whose hands it was ruined?
                      1. Delta
                        Delta April 12 2013 22: 24
                        +2
                        Quote: Nitup
                        Do you know for certain what and with whose hands it was ruined?

                        Do you need information?
              2. Misantrop
                Misantrop April 12 2013 23: 47
                +2
                Quote: Sirocco
                In a year we’ll see.
                Where are we going to see? Even if the NSR is riveting boats, from whom will we equip the crews? How many graduates are currently issuing military fleet universities? And if you consider that the institute of midshipmen is defeated and revival is only planned, then it doesn’t turn out to be fun at all. We will equip crews with office plankton, will we fill out military posts with legal advisers and managers? It’s impossible to get out of the personnel reserve, the ship’s crew needs good health, and among tomorrow’s retirees, few can boast of this ...
                1. alex20081308
                  alex20081308 April 13 2013 21: 08
                  +4
                  The worst thing is that the succession of generations is broken. Between senior and junior officers. And this ....... mat is not enough. To Serdyukov frying in hell. A terrible diversion cannot be made.
            2. andrey777
              andrey777 April 12 2013 13: 03
              +2
              Then, in general, let's not build anything and we will not live, and we will cave in under the amers. DO NOT WAIT !!! THE Russian submarine fleet TO BE !!!
            3. evgenii67
              evgenii67 April 12 2013 18: 05
              +2
              Hello everyone!
              Quote: alex20081308
              To build is half the trouble. But debug and run-in is the second half. And the second half is much harder and longer

              Oh, if you take into account that the project of the boat is ready (there is no time cost for the project), and take into account the time from laying to launching, then it takes 3-5 years or more, depending on the type of boat and financing (I take into account nuclear submarine construction, I do not take diesel as an example)
              1. Nitup
                Nitup April 12 2013 22: 25
                0
                I support. It is one thing now to set the task from scratch to develop new nuclear submarines and put into operation 2020-15 units by 16. Another thing, when the lead ships have already been built and accepted, weapons for them are. It remains only to improve and build in series. This is a very real task.
            4. Su24
              Su24 April 12 2013 23: 19
              +3
              We won the Second World War, and lost the Second World War. The proof of this is that the USSR is not on the map now


              Well, you mixed it up a bit. And we won the Second World War and WWII, but there is no Cold War. Therefore, the USSR is not on the map either.
          2. stjrm
            stjrm April 12 2013 23: 47
            +4
            You are not right Sirocco, oh, you are not right ... Here, "LET'S GO", this is not what is needed in the construction of a nuclear submarine fleet, I will note in peacetime.
            You cannot imagine what the crew has to face after such "heroic" assaults. And for all this you have to pay with the LIVES of people. Here's the fact that you take off your hat to the strategist's SPK is correct. I have 15 autonomous units on the RPK CH, who knows what it is for the Commander, for the chief officer, for the commander of the BC-5, but for many who have tried, they understand that this sir is far from being "bubbles" ... smile
            1. alex20081308
              alex20081308 April 13 2013 09: 16
              +2
              Thanks for the support. You are apparently from the old guard. And the hat must be removed in front of you and your comrades. 15 autonomy is a song. Unfortunately, I was a lieutenant who left the school in 1993 and ended up in the collapse. So I have only 2. But they were enough to understand the essence of the process. And as in Soviet times, they did 2-3 per year. People from the shore can not imagine it.
        2. stjrm
          stjrm April 12 2013 23: 37
          +4
          Not a colleague, they’ll build it, it’s possible ...
          But everything else, yes, it’s a problem, and so far there’s nothing to see that they are starting to solve it. It would not have happened that the ship will be built, but who and what to do with it will not be clear, yeah. smile
      2. saymonz
        saymonz April 12 2013 10: 19
        12 th
        Quote: Sirocco
        former power

        Therefore, the pots talked about an incapable fleet, lol
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa April 12 2013 14: 46
          +7
          Quote: saymonz

          Therefore, the pots spoke about the incompetent fleet,

          Soviet people under Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union S.G. Gorshkovo built an ocean, nuclear-missile fleet. When it got its development all classes and types of ships! Therefore, a heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser is named after him, as a confirmation of outstanding services to the country. (Essence is a light aircraft carrier with missile weapons on board).
          So, dear!
      3. Patriot of Russia
        Patriot of Russia April 12 2013 19: 08
        0
        promises, promises ... meanwhile in Russia
        http://goloviznin.ru/vvmure/table3.jpg

        Vladimir Vasilievich Puchnin - Professor of the Naval Academy named after N.G. Kuznetsova, doctor of military sciences, professor:

        ".... Taking into account the planned amount of financial resources allocated for the repair and construction of new ships, as well as the aging of the naval personnel and aircraft of naval aviation, the Russian Navy by 2016 in all four fleets and the Caspian Flotilla will have:
        - multipurpose nuclear submarines - 15–18, of which the combat readiness in technical condition is not more than 10;
        - diesel submarines - 8–9;
        - surface ships of the 1st and 2nd rank - 35–40, of which the combat readiness in technical condition is not more than 20, and 70% of the ships are older than 25 years;
        - surface ships of rank 3 and 4 - 14–16.
        http://nvo.ng.ru/forces/2006-12-22/1_vmf.html
  2. fzr1000
    fzr1000 April 12 2013 08: 58
    +2
    Anyway, I do not really understand. how 6,5 boats will be built in 24 years.
    1. alex20081308
      alex20081308 April 12 2013 09: 29
      11
      No doubt about it. They will not be built. In 2020, they will explain to us why it happened and who stole half of the 20 trillion. rubles.
      1. fzr1000
        fzr1000 April 12 2013 10: 07
        +1
        I think that if they pass 12 units, there would be a good result.
        1. Bronis
          Bronis April 12 2013 13: 16
          +9
          Of 636.3, 3 are under construction. 677 - 2 pcs. (but there are still many questions with them). 855 - 1 (+1 available) pcs. 955 - 2 pcs. (+2 pieces are still there). The fate of "Lada" raises the greatest questions. On "Ash" - also questions. Voiced by 7 units by 2021. Now only 1 unit is being built. (+1 is), no longer pledged, but only 8 years left. Considering how many are being built, if there are 4-5 of them. will be by that time - already a considerable success ... "Boreas", it seems, went into the series. And 636 is a run-in project, with less fears. There is some margin of time, but it is getting smaller. Possibly 12 to 20 boats. Now conversations have begun about how to repair and modernize what is - an indirect sign that we realized: statements are statements, and reality is reality.
          1. alex20081308
            alex20081308 April 12 2013 14: 28
            +6
            I agree. BUT!!!! 955 is not in the series yet. It will become serial after adopting the second boat. And according to the latest statements, this is either the end of the 13th year (which is unlikely) or 2014. And the sense of what was accepted into the fleet's staff = Dolgoruky =. there are no missiles to it yet, the crew is raw and the first BS is planned only in 2014. So as a combat unit until mid-2014 it = 0 =. As for 855, then my opinion is that fate will happen to him = Si-Full =. they pushed too much there. And the project turned out to be too expensive.
            1. Bronis
              Bronis April 12 2013 15: 09
              +1
              Quote: alex20081308
              BUT!!!
              Precisely, that "But" ... "Boreas" went into the series, but so far "did not reach" at all. At least they are already being built and quite massively (against the background of the rest) and there is nowhere to retreat. On "Ash" I agree with you. The price is high there and the series is still very far away. Most likely, the project will not replace "Pike". Price, price, price and pace of construction. It is quite possible (and necessary if we want to keep the number of nuclear submarines at the same level) a cheaper and simpler project, but more massive (and time again !!!). Thus, the "Ash" will replace the "Antei" (over time), all the more so that the successors of the P-700 are not expected and they are also planning "Onyx" and "Caliber".
              Of course, this is not a replacement for the "bash for bash" project, but the tactical niche is similar.
              And there is no clarity on DEPL. There are no air-independent operational power units yet. If all this drags on, then the order for 636 will have to be increased - according to DEPL, the age question is even more relevant - their average age is higher than that of SSRS.
              The fleet is generally a very problematic issue in rearmament, because most labor intensive and technically sophisticated.
    2. Egoza
      Egoza April 13 2013 21: 15
      0
      Quote: fzr1000
      Anyway, I do not really understand. how 6,5 boats will be built in 24 years.

      Probably they thought that once in the "damned Stalinist times" they showed the wonders of building and mastering new technology, so it will also be in peacetime! Will not be. People lack enthusiasm and faith. So cut it in half. 12 boats may be built. IMHO
  3. alex20081308
    alex20081308 April 12 2013 09: 04
    15
    Firstly. In the first place, the status of these zones does not allow the operation of nuclear submarines in the Baltic and the Black Sea Fleet. They are declared free from ships with nuclear power plants and all this is sealed by international treaties. Any special ifrostructure for basing nuclear submarines is not required. If necessary, she can always go to the North for repairs. Well, this is lyrics. But as for the PB at the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, they were created in the 30-40s. Then their choice was justified. There was no precision and nuclear weapons and much more. Currently, the main bases on the Northern Fleet, namely Gadzhievo, is a trap for all the ships there. The narrow neck of the exit from the bay is sealed with any rocket or barge. And if it’s not so important for strategists (in which case you can shoot from the pier), then the multi-taskers won’t get out of there. A mass exit of ships by alarm from there is impossible. The situation in Kamchatka is slightly better. Well, there the narrow throat of the Avacha Bay makes the submarines extremely vulnerable at the exit from the base. New PBs are required that meet modern realities.
    1. sven27
      sven27 April 12 2013 12: 20
      0
      I completely agree with you about both the 24APS and the BOP. God forbid to build and submarines and bases by 2050
    2. Alexander K.
      Alexander K. April 12 2013 17: 39
      +1
      I completely agree. As the author of an article claiming to be analytic, I may not be aware of, for example, the status of the Baltic and the Black Sea, the place of the future service of the diesel-electric submarine "St. Petersburg", I do not understand.
  4. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets April 12 2013 09: 08
    +2
    "An excellent example of such a basing is the Black Sea Fleet. The ships of this operational-strategic alliance have direct access to the Mediterranean region, and from there to the Atlantic Ocean. It is worth recalling that the Mediterranean Sea is one of the most important areas."

    The problem of the Black Sea Fleet is precisely that it has theoretical access in the Mediterranean, since the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles are under the control of a probable friend. Once in the Mediterranean Sea, to enter the Atlantic you still need to go through Gibraltar, and it can also be blocked.
  5. Civil
    Civil April 12 2013 09: 38
    +3
    Dear author, where did the information about going out to combat patrol of Chinese strategists come from?
    Onyx range - 300 km is not enough?
  6. UFO
    UFO April 12 2013 09: 41
    +3
    Quote: alex20081308
    We need new PBs corresponding to modern realities

    Not so long ago in the media there was infa about the development of the port of Indiga, Arkhangelsk region. and construction from Sosnogorsk (Komi) to Indiga railway, isn’t this connected with apl?
    1. alex20081308
      alex20081308 April 12 2013 09: 44
      +6
      It may well be. And the place there is quite good for placing boats. Went away from the pier and under the ice. And there, look for fistulas. Yes and places molosopolyany and inaccessible. And this is also a big plus .. Another thing is that the creation of an ifrostructure there for basing will require huge money and a powerful auxiliary fleet, in the form of a couple of atomic icebreakers and so on
  7. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 12 2013 10: 24
    +2
    Isn't it time for the KBF to restore the Ruchyi naval base? As for the submarine, the priority should be for a smaller displacement. For the Black Sea Fleet and KBF, the "Amur-950" with silo missiles are optimal !!!
  8. ed65b
    ed65b April 12 2013 11: 24
    +1
    I didn’t understand about China, I read an article recently that they don’t go on patrols with atomic weapons on board. Only sea trials are carried out ?????
  9. erased
    erased April 12 2013 11: 24
    +1
    The main thing is that there is no new "brake light", as in the early 90s. And so the situation can be gradually rectified. Although there is not enough time left.
  10. Army1
    Army1 April 12 2013 12: 28
    +1
    Here's such a thing: in the USSR, in order to reload the SSBN, he swam in an underwater position, into a cave, and there he swam to the surface, and that’s what turns out not to be seen by a satellite, just a slide, and apl. Now they are practicing something similar, are they introducing new disguise methods? Question to Special?
    1. alex20081308
      alex20081308 April 12 2013 14: 31
      +1
      Were built. But according to my information, they were not included in the system. Then in the 90s everything was poher. Only the boat didn’t enter there underwater but in the surface. Well, their meaning was protection from the initial nuclear strike on the PB.
  11. Mikola
    Mikola April 12 2013 12: 39
    -4
    belong to the class of strategic submarines
    What the hell is such a strategic submarine cruiser? smile Are there submarine destroyers, frigates corvettes? Or the name is to scare a potential enemy ....
    1. alex20081308
      alex20081308 April 12 2013 14: 32
      +1
      There is a certain classification of submarines. Depending on the destination and the type of EU. Search the Internet information is available. Just too lazy to list
      1. Mikola
        Mikola April 12 2013 14: 53
        -2
        And bring for example an American or British submarine cruiser? smile
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm April 12 2013 15: 02
          +1
          Quote: Mikola
          And bring for example an American or British submarine cruiser?

          Follow the link if not laziness
          http://army-news.ru/2012/02/tyazhyolye-raketnye-podvodnye-krejsery/
          1. Mikola
            Mikola April 12 2013 22: 35
            -1
            If you are not lazy, then read your link and call me underwater frigates and corvettes) And why in the west the submarines are not sorted into cruisers and frigates?
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic April 12 2013 15: 13
      +6
      Quote: Mikola
      strategic submarine


      Submarine cruiser - this is what they usually call in the press a submarine adapted for long single autonomous trips. but I think it’s understandable for strategic purposes.
      It’s more correct to call SSBN - A strategic missile submarine cruiser, nuclear submarine armed with ballistic missiles, to designate this class of submarines, the designation also applies SSBN - nuclear submarine with ballistic missiles. At the same time, SSBNs are understood as foreign submarines with ballistic missiles and the first nuclear-powered submarines built by the USSR, and SSBNs are the designation of the later Soviet-built SSBNs starting from 667A. Both the SSBN and SSBN are SSBN (Ship Submarine Ballistic Nuclear) in the U.S. Navy. Today, we include in this class (of the newest ones in service) Boreas in the United States - Ohio.
      In fact, an underwater mobile launch platform for ICBMs.

      Often confused with SSGN- nuclear submarine with cruise missiles. The purpose of these boats is to launch missiles against ships or coastal targets of the enemy. According to the classification of the US Navy, SSGNs are designated as SSGN (Ship Submarine Guided (missile) Nuclear). Nuclear submarines with cruise missiles are part of the navies of Russia and the United States. For example, a rearmed Ohio with a Trident ICBM on a high-precision Tomahawk CD. Do we have the Ash project (for now the Severodvinsk nuclear submarine) equipped with 24 launchers for the Onyx cruise missile? , subsonic KR Caliber missile-torpedoes and deep-sea homing torpedoes "Physicist" (all with the possibility of using SBS)
      By the way, the commissioning of a new ASBU at the General Staff is planned for the summer, and it is planned to test it by launching Bulava from the Alexander Nevsky nuclear submarine during state tests of the boat. And just the launch will be carried out directly from the MSC GSh. If all goes well it will be..song !!
      1. Mikola
        Mikola April 12 2013 17: 05
        -5
        Perfectly. We decided on the cruiser. And since there is an underwater cruiser, then there must be an underwater frigate, a destroyer. Any examples of these submarines? That one. So this classification is lame.
    3. Misantrop
      Misantrop April 12 2013 23: 59
      +2
      Quote: Mikola
      What the hell is such a strategic submarine cruiser?
      You can’t know everything, it’s understandable. But flaunting his ignorance is a sign of limitation. This name of the submarine with the BR existed already from the time of Khrushchev until recently
    4. Mikola
      Mikola April 13 2013 20: 59
      0
      Oh, I don’t understand why there is an underwater cruiser, but there is no underwater frigate. Either the fleet is not built correctly or the names are not given correctly smile
  12. sonik-007
    sonik-007 April 12 2013 12: 39
    +1
    "The ships of this operational-strategic alliance have direct access to the Mediterranean region, and from there to the Atlantic Ocean."

    Somehow, the author easily writes about this ... I believe that in conditions of hostilities both the Bosphorus and the Dordanelles will be blocked, and it will be problematic to leak through them.

    Of course we need submarines, it's no secret to anyone. We need to maintain and develop our army, no matter how populist this sounds. The main thing is our wonderful technique, the best in the world to have not in single copies ...
  13. Conepatus
    Conepatus April 12 2013 13: 59
    +1
    Well, of course, if everything works out and by 2020 the fleet will get 24PL. Only recently, plans are huge, and implementation is lame. Building a boat is relatively inexpensive, expensive to maintain.
    And yet, maybe not in the subject. In an alliance, the names of the type "Admiral Gorshkov", etc., were assigned to ships of the 1st rank. And now frigates are called that. The fleet is shrinking, or where?
  14. Vovka levka
    Vovka levka April 12 2013 14: 22
    0
    Quote:
    An excellent example of such a base is the Black Sea Fleet. The ships of this operational-strategic association have direct access to the Mediterranean region, and from there to the Atlantic Ocean. It is worth recalling that the water area of ​​the Mediterranean Sea is one of the most important areas. There are several reasons for this importance. Firstly, as already mentioned, the possibility of access to the Atlantic. Secondly, ships and submarines of a potential enemy, while in the Mediterranean, can attack objects on Russian territory. Thirdly, do not forget about the trade sea routes and the South Stream gas pipeline under construction. All these communications are also in the zone of responsibility of the Black Sea Fleet.

    The Baltic Fleet is equally important for the country. As in the case of the Black Sea, in the immediate vicinity of its bases lie sea lanes and the Nord Stream gas pipeline. In addition, it is the ships of the Baltic Sea that have the most convenient and shortest access to the northern regions of the Atlantic Ocean and the sea, located north of Europe. Also, one should not forget about the possible missile strike of the enemy from these areas. Thus, the Baltic Fleet can and must also search and, if necessary, destroy enemy ships and submarines.

    It seems that there was no second world war, and no one conducted an analysis. The Black, Baltic and Mediterranean Sea are large puddles, where the entrances and exits are tiny holes and which are controlled by strangers. Mousetraps are good, but no more.
  15. Sling
    Sling April 12 2013 14: 23
    +1
    According to Andrei Getman, Advisor to the Head of the NAO Administration, the development of the port will be determined by the stages of development of gas chemical production.
    In particular, the existence of a deepwater port in Indigo also involves the concept of building a railway, the so-called BarentsCom Ura, a branch of this corridor from Indiga to Sosnogorsk.
    http://www.baltinfo.ru/2009/06/10/V-zapolyarnoi'-Indige-budet-sozdan-univer
    sal'nyi'-glubokovodnyi'-port
  16. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa April 12 2013 15: 36
    +7
    Quote: sonik-007
    I believe in the conditions of military actions both the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles will be blocked, and it will be problematic to leak through them.

    "Don't shoot the pianist! He plays as best he can" (proverb).
    The author is not a professional, he probably did not serve in the fleet, it is felt for a number of blunders (I will not stop). But thanks to him already for not being indifferent to the fleet, he managed to spark the discussion. A PLUS!
    Essentially, to the "ihnim" straits. The fact is that the entire beginning of the DB is considered in isolation from the activities of the military-political leadership of the country, the Armed Forces. This is mistake. The situation room of the President is not made for relaxation and pleasant pastime. As tensions grow, the headquarters of various levels are switching to "..." operating mode.
    GC Navy Commanders fleets in advance decide on the deployment of fleet forces in the areas of combat mission. BSF daily! gives notice of the passage of the ships of the pouring zone. Knowledgeable people (not the witness himself) told that the commander in chief in a conversation with S.G. Gorshkov, testing his reaction to what was said, stated: we will close the Black Sea straits and not a single ship of the Black Sea Fleet will enter the Mediterranean Sea. To which Gorshkov calmly replied: Then we will have to dig out a new one with nuclear warheads!
    More amers did not raise this issue. The USSR had a mighty FLEET, which was feared and respected. To this we must strive now, I think so.
    1. Mikola
      Mikola April 12 2013 17: 36
      +1
      To which Gorshkov calmly answered: Then we will have to dig a new one with nuclear warheads!
      Do you believe in the use of nuclear weapons? Then the fleet is not needed ....
      1. Waterfall
        Waterfall April 12 2013 18: 38
        0
        Well Duc of the USSR Navy was going to fight just with tactical nuclear weapons ...
      2. Misantrop
        Misantrop April 13 2013 00: 06
        +1
        Quote: Mikola
        Do you believe in the use of nuclear weapons?
        You do not need to believe in nuclear weapons. It must be armed with readiness for use. And so that the neighbors do not doubt it. Then they get less impudent, verified
        1. Mikola
          Mikola April 13 2013 21: 18
          0
          have nuclear weapons and take different concepts, nuclear weapons aren’t going to disassembly with a gun.
  17. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa April 12 2013 16: 06
    +3
    Quote: sonik-007
    I believe in the conditions of hostilities, both the Bosphorus and Dordanelles will be blocked, and it will be problematic to leak through them.


    The statement is true if the military-political leadership of the country missed the endangered period and increased tensions. To prevent this from happening, there are forces of combat duty and combat service. When translating to a certain extent, BG is building them up. Already before the start of the DB, forces can be deployed to the size of wartime. In order to misinform and deceive the enemy, there are many tricks. The Black Sea Fleet daily gave notice of the passage of all its ships in the pouring zone. And back and forth.
    The Mediterranean squadron (flotillas) today is the edge of the necessary MBP at the Middle East. We used to have them. Tartus, Lattakia, Anaba ... Now more difficult. But even at that legendary time, we had a developed mobile rear. What cost Berksina kks, hospital (!!!) Ob, Yenisei, Lena with their medical staff ... Yes, there was a time!
    1. Mikola
      Mikola April 12 2013 17: 46
      -3
      Well, imagine the situation. Well, they deployed a fleet in the Mediterranean Sea, for example, to support the Assad regime, well, there was an escalation. Blocked NATO Bosphorus, Suets and Gibraltar. What will the squadron do? Sing the proud Varyag and open the Kingston? "Pampering" is all this. Russia cannot really defend its interests with a fleet in the Mediterranean Sea; any fleet always "relies" on its coast. Partially in the Baltic, yes.
      1. MURANO
        MURANO April 12 2013 20: 50
        +3
        Quote: Mikola
        Blocked by Nato Bosphorus, Suez and Gibraltar

        This would be tantamount to declaring war on Russia; no one would use it in their right and sober mind.
        1. Mikola
          Mikola April 12 2013 22: 36
          -3
          And I described a case of war))) Or should your fleet be amusing?
          1. MURANO
            MURANO April 12 2013 22: 52
            +1
            Quote: Mikola
            And I described a case of war)))

            Well, so I wrote to you about a sound and sober mind))
            Or maybe someone wants to stay in Europe without gas?
        2. papik09
          papik09 April 13 2013 05: 55
          +1
          And oh, how you don't want to fight with Russia, it's scary though. There may not be enough diapers. And what can I say? You can, after all, not only "cheat", but also get a candelabrum on the head.
          1. Mikola
            Mikola April 13 2013 20: 57
            -1
            It’s generally ridiculous to frighten the West with Russia by Russia, and Russia with the West. And those and others, if necessary, climb on the rampage.
      2. Misantrop
        Misantrop April 13 2013 00: 08
        +1
        Quote: Mikola
        Blocked by Nato Bosphorus, Suez and Gibraltar. What will the squadron do?
        Release. Otherwise, what's the point of keeping her there. And by what means - this is according to the situation
        1. Mikola
          Mikola April 13 2013 21: 24
          0
          Your intelligence is lame) Only the Turkish fleet exceeds the Black Sea Fleet in terms of both quantity and quality. Describe how a fleet locked in the Mediterranean can break into the Black Sea?
  18. vassso1
    vassso1 April 12 2013 16: 48
    0
    Comrades, who knows where rubber is made for soundproofing submarines? In St. Petersburg? Or China? My acquaintance (all-tramp) claims that in China, like at one time we gave them an order to make this rubber, and our production was bent, now we are buying rubber for submarines from the Chinese. Is there such a thing? Or delirium of a madman (somewhere he heard it). Maybe someone will throw an article ...
  19. Canep
    Canep April 12 2013 18: 12
    +3
    Not enough submarines in my opinion Putin decided to build only 24, the Americans have only Los Angeles in the ranks of 42 units. I figured it out: if a quarter of Russia's gold and foreign exchange reserves ($ 700 billion) are spent on the construction of nuclear submarines, then about 90 ships can be built at a price of $ 2 billion. My son said to this my thought: - "there will be traffic jams in the ocean, like in Moscow."
    In the 80s, 5 nuclear submarines simultaneously left the SF bases, the Americans threw 6 COMPOUNDS of anti-submarine ships in search of them, I don’t know how much diesel fuel they burned, but could not find them. And if it comes out not 5, but 50 nuclear submarines, they certainly will not have time to establish democracy in countries with rich natural resources.
    It’s a pity that these are only my dreams. Not enough production capacity for such an order.
    1. Waterfall
      Waterfall April 12 2013 18: 19
      0
      Quote: Canep
      a 50 nuclear submarines

      Considering KOH, will you need to keep over 150 submarines in the Federation Council, will you not be overwhelmed?
      Quote: Canep
      threw 6 COMPOUNDS of anti-submarine ships, I do not know how much diesel fuel they burned but could not find them

      Only the American ICAPLs were in the Motov and Avacha bays, and remained. Keeping track of the SSBN and more. Without Atrin. Yes, and the PLO has advanced significantly.
      Quote: Canep
      5 nuclear submarines came out at the same time, the Americans threw 6 COMPOUNDS of anti-submarine ships in their search, I do not know how much diesel fuel they burned, but could not find them

      There were many opposing examples ...
  20. xomaNN
    xomaNN April 12 2013 19: 54
    +1
    Yes, the St. Petersburg submarine design bureau, together with the St. Petersburg and other shipbuilding plants, is time to move forward with diesel-electric submarines. The example of German diesel submarines of new projects shows a model to strive for. And on the Black Sea Fleet the situation of the submarine is absolutely awful, it is worse only in the Ukrainian Navy with the surface-conditionally submarine submarine "Zaporozhye" 641 project.
    1. Waterfall
      Waterfall April 12 2013 19: 55
      0
      212 is truly the best non-nuclear submarine in the world at the moment.
  21. bublic82009
    bublic82009 April 12 2013 20: 00
    0
    so many submarines we will crush all
    1. Waterfall
      Waterfall April 12 2013 20: 17
      0
      And you tell "everyone" about it - they will probably still do it.
  22. alex86
    alex86 April 12 2013 20: 08
    +1
    After not reading all of the above in great detail, I came to the conclusion: not 24 submarines in 6,5 years will be happiness; and not 12 at the same time - 6 submarines will be a fortune, and very large if they are atomic, but there is a chance that there are 3 atomic and 3 diesel-electric submarines ... Somehow, all this is sad ...
  23. 123ewq
    123ewq April 12 2013 23: 50
    +1
    Quote: alex20081308
    No doubt about it. They will not be built. In 2020, they will explain to us why it happened and who stole half of the 20 trillion. rubles.
    it is not clear why everyone was so excited?
    The State Arms Development Program for 2007-2015 (GPV-2015) is a program for the procurement and development of military equipment for the army of the Russian Federation. The program was not implemented in almost all respects. In early 2011, replaced by the GPV-2020 Program. The draft GPV-2015 was tentatively approved on June 2, 2006 by the Military Industrial Commission under the Government of Russia. On October 26, 2006, the program was approved by a closed decree of the President of the Russian Federation. A total of 4 trillion 939 billion 400 million rubles were allocated for its financing during its operation.
  24. stjrm
    stjrm April 12 2013 23: 59
    +1
    Quote: alex20081308
    Firstly. In the first place, the status of these zones does not allow the operation of nuclear submarines in the Baltic and the Black Sea Fleet. They are declared free from ships with nuclear power plants and all this is sealed by international treaties. Any special ifrostructure for basing nuclear submarines is not required. If necessary, she can always go to the North for repairs. Well, this is lyrics. But as for the PB at the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, they were created in the 30-40s. Then their choice was justified. There was no precision and nuclear weapons and much more. Currently, the main bases on the Northern Fleet, namely Gadzhievo, is a trap for all the ships there. The narrow neck of the exit from the bay is sealed with any rocket or barge. And if it’s not so important for strategists (in which case you can shoot from the pier), then the multi-taskers won’t get out of there. A mass exit of ships by alarm from there is impossible. The situation in Kamchatka is slightly better. Well, there the narrow throat of the Avacha Bay makes the submarines extremely vulnerable at the exit from the base. New PBs are required that meet modern realities.


    Well, well, colleague, "mass submarine exit on alarm" ....
    In the threatened period, there will be no boats at all, well, remember .... smile
    By the way, at one time in Kamchatka, B. Krasheninnikov planned to make a passage for ships from Berry on b. Sarana is almost immediately into the ocean ....
    1. alex20081308
      alex20081308 April 13 2013 08: 09
      +1
      I immediately recall 1941. We thought the same that there would be no sudden alarm. And what happened ??? If at least a small probability there is such a situation, it should be taken into account. These are again the lessons of history.
    2. alex20081308
      alex20081308 April 13 2013 09: 37
      +1
      On this crevice between two hills a wonderful road to the ocean beach. And the beach there is far from California. And most importantly, not a soul to the people.
  25. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa April 13 2013 00: 49
    +2
    Quote: Wasserfall
    Considering KOH, will you need to keep over 150 submarines in the Federation Council, will you not be overwhelmed?

    The defeat of the enemy's KOH is a fleet operation. So will participate MRA, NK, PLA. As a rule, on the lines. If a very valuable KOH, be sure the Supreme will throw up a silenok. So it's not so bad.
    About the number of submarines in the Northern Fleet. Their number is determined based on the "operational capacity of the theater". I will not dwell on the KSF, but about the non-strategic fleet (BF) I can say that only 7-10 square meters are needed. The tasks have changed, so 112 units are no longer needed, as it was in the 80s.
    The adversary may refuse to solve the problem if the losses are unacceptable. There are degrees of defeat, the highest is the defeat, the most ... weakening. In combat order com. the compounds indicated that they were waiting for him: defeat or weakening, but this is done on the basis of complex calculations ... This is to represent what it is about, dear.
    1. MURANO
      MURANO April 13 2013 00: 52
      0
      Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
      The defeat of the enemy KOH

      It's about a different interpretation of KOH .....
  26. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa April 13 2013 01: 05
    +2
    Quote: Mikola
    Do you believe in the use of nuclear weapons? Then the fleet is not needed ..

    Then Peter I is wrong - talking about a combatant with one or two hands? YAO is the "last resort of kings". Everyone knows this.
    Quote: Wasserfall
    Well so the Navy of the USSR was going to fight just with TNW.

    Not only, but including different situations were worked out. By the way, like the fleets of all members of the atomic club. And this is not shocked professionals, not shocking now. With those who doubted this, the fleet parted without much regret. Such cases were.
    1. Mikola
      Mikola April 13 2013 21: 21
      +1
      Well so the Navy of the USSR was going to fight just with TNW.

      Do you know the end of this tale? smile The USSR died and the fleet remained, which is unbalanced and unsuitable for service today, to solve the everyday tasks of the fleet
      1. Waterfall
        Waterfall April 14 2013 01: 10
        0
        The fact that the fleet had reached a dead end by the 80s and turned into an incomprehensible fact is a well-known fact ...
        Quote: Mikola
        which is unbalanced and unsuitable for service today, for solving the everyday tasks of the fleet

        aha
  27. I think so
    I think so April 13 2013 01: 14
    +2
    Somehow, in the plans, the whole year 2020 is mentioned ... And therefore it is embarrassing ... Almost all the initiatives of the current Russian government went "to the whistle" - the plans were outlined, crowed on TV and ... they happily forgot about EVERYTHING ... ... it seems ... the term is distant ... maybe they will forget or, in extreme cases, we will come up with something ... how to distract the people from the next failure of plans ...
  28. Onil
    Onil April 13 2013 04: 24
    0
    On the submarines pr.885 and 677 apparently put an end to, otherwise why upgrade 15 submarines pr.971 and 945 and conclude an agreement with China on the sale of 2-4 submarines with VNEU.
    1. Waterfall
      Waterfall April 13 2013 20: 18
      0
      Taking into account the pace of commissioning of new boats, modernization of the current is vitally important (and where will they go).
      Quote: Onil
      On the submarines pr. 885 and 677 apparently put a cross,

      It makes no sense to build them at all, projects are outdated even before bookmarking.
  29. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 13 2013 20: 37
    0
    By the way, in the distant 70s a year they built 6 SSBNs (Mureny), a project that was successful in many respects. Severodvinsk and Komsomolsk-on-Amur. But there were other submarines on the Red Sormovo! We did our own, for each Moray-personally! And there was pride in the deed, and now-tfu, to what extent it is necessary to go down.
  30. Mikola
    Mikola April 13 2013 21: 04
    +1
    Here the author paid little attention to the bases and, in particular, to maintaining the existing fleet in ammunition.
    According to Shoigu, now 80% of more than 1 thousand Russian military and auxiliary vessels have exhausted their resources and are operated outside of the overhaul periods. At the same time, under the State Arms Program, until 2020, it is planned to repair a total of 65 warships, 12 special and 62 auxiliary vessels. At the same time, it is planned to build 113 warships in place of obsolete vessels, eight of them special and 65 support vessels. At the same time, according to military estimates, Russian shipyards are not able to provide repair and maintenance of all ships. So, according to the Ministry of Defense, in 2012, the United Shipbuilding Corporation, which combines almost all of the Russian shipyards and shipyards, did not complete the repair of six and service on 157 ships and ships of the Russian Navy
    The Russian economy does not pull the fleet, this is the problem ...
    1. Evgeniy667b
      Evgeniy667b April 14 2013 08: 13
      0
      I must note that the personnel potential of the shipbuilding and ship repair industry, as well as related industries, is also in short supply. Well, it is not for migrant workers to entrust responsible work, this will generally lead to an unknown outcome. And what will happen by 2020?
  31. Kostia1970
    Kostia1970 April 14 2013 11: 18
    0
    So far, only talk, but I want to believe that all this will be of high quality and on time.
  32. camcos
    camcos April 15 2013 12: 49
    0
    Yes, and especially non-nuclear boats there are almost no and will not be built quickly - the capabilities of the plants have long been undermined
  33. camcos
    camcos April 15 2013 12: 49
    0
    Yes, and especially non-nuclear boats there are almost no and will not be built quickly - the capabilities of the plants have long been undermined
  34. sled 1912
    sled 1912 April 16 2013 13: 17
    0
    submarines surface ships - if agriculture is not raised there will be no one to save - the country will fall apart and die out .. In the provinces, poverty and drunkenness, people are dying out - food, communications are needed ... And defense problems are solved by a large nuclear club ...