Military Review

Is it better to buy weapons abroad or equip the Russian army with domestic weapons?

380
Currently, the purchase of weapons for the army of a large state abroad is almost impossible


Is it better to buy weapons abroad or equip the Russian army with domestic weapons?

BMD-4 with the combat module "Bakhcha-U".


To answer the question of whether it is better to buy or produce armament and military equipment (IWT) in your country, let us first consider what factors the importer is guided by. weapons when deciding on the procurement of samples of weapons and military equipment of a particular country.

Arkady SHIPUNOV

The first is the scientific and technical level of weapons and military equipment samples offered by the exporting country.

I will give an example. The European anti-tank missile system (ATGW) Milan used to buy well, but now it has already lagged behind in terms of technical level. The American TOW TOW for the same reason also lost its position in the arms market. Consumers turned to new models of weapons and military equipment: among them is the domestic Kornet-E ATGM, the American Javelin ATGM, the Israeli Spike ATGM. They differ significantly from the previously released complexes, have a different technical level.

The second is the production capacity and quality of the manufactured equipment. When buying a new weapon, the task is to rearm the army. The customer is interested in whether products can be received quickly and in the required quantity. The effectiveness of rearmament depends on this. The quality of weapons, in addition to the combat characteristics, is determined by the reliability and reliability of the operation of the complexes in various conditions, which affects the faith of the army in this type of weapon. Naturally, the value of weapons.

Arkady G. SHIPUNOV - Scientific Director of OJSC "KBP", Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences

The third is the political factor. When purchasing, the duration of maintenance is important: the supply of spare parts, repairs, maintenance. There must be confidence in the partner, that his position does not change. The higher the prestige of the country, the more in demand its weapons on foreign markets.

Let us return to the question of whether it is better to buy weapons abroad or equip the Russian army with domestic weapons?

Turning to historical examples.

The Russian emperor Peter I, who was the organizer of the full-scale arms production in Russia, considered: in order to eliminate century-old backwardness, it is necessary not to buy ships and guns abroad, but to adopt the technology of their design and construction. He not only actively supported the attraction of foreign specialists, but also initiated the direction of Russian masters to study abroad.

Peter's strategy gave a powerful impetus to the development of the country's defense industry, which led to the strengthening of Russian positions in the world and, ultimately, to the expansion of state borders.

However, the policy of subsequent rulers, consisting largely in the blind imitation of European armies and the procurement of foreign military equipment, led to the fact that in the pre-revolutionary period, Russia's armament remained at a lower level than foreign equipment. Armaments offered by domestic designers were not manufactured in sufficient quantities for the needs of the army.

For example, the production of the Mosin three-line rifle began in 1892 at the Tula, Izhevsk and Sestroretsky weapons factories. However, due to the limited production capacity of these plants, an order for 500 thousand units was also placed at French military factories.

At the beginning of World War I, in 1914, the Russian army consisted of a total of 4,6 million rifles, with the number of the army itself in 5,3 million. The needs of the front at the beginning of the war amounted to 100-150 thousand rifles monthly in the production at domestic factories only 27 thousand. The Russian government was forced to order about 1,5 million rifles from Winchester in the United States.

On 1 February 1916, three Russian fronts had about 4,4 million fighters and about 5600 machine guns of various kinds of foreign production: British light machine guns “Hotchks”, “Lewis”, American heavy machine guns “Colt” and “Maxim” under the Russian cartridge, French light machine guns "Shosh", captured Austrian machine guns "Schwarzlose" and others.

Thus, the Russian machine gun armament during the First World War turned out to be very variegated both in terms of calibers and systems, which, of course, made them difficult to maintain, repair, replenish ammunition. New production of machine guns in the country could not be deployed. Izhevsk and Sestroretsky weapons factories did not have the appropriate equipment, and private industry - the necessary production capacity and experience.

During World War I, the Russian army experienced a shortage of Russian small arms, there were no tanks и aviation. Thus, at that time, the vulnerability of Russia was a focus on foreign manufacturers.

Friedrich Engels said that according to the characteristics and quality of weapons of the army and fleet, you can judge the level of development of industry, economy, science and education in the country. If you rephrase Napoleon I, we can say that a people who do not want to develop their defense industry will feed a foreign army.

In the twentieth century, the Soviet government for the 19 years after the end of the Civil War carried out the industrialization of the country, due to which mass production of weapons and military equipment was organized on the basis of their own developments. This played a large role in the victory in the most terrible war in history with the most powerful, very well-equipped enemy.

During the Great Patriotic War in the USSR, new equipment was developed, and not bought it abroad from allies, for example, in the USA or in Great Britain. The military products that the US supplied to the USSR, and this, for example, automotive vehicles (about 750 thousand Studebaker trucks), of course, played a certain role in the victory of our country over Nazi Germany, but not decisive.

Thus, historical examples of the development of the defense industry in Russia show that the organization of weapons production in their country contributes to a high level of science and technology development, equipping the army with weapons that are not inferior in their characteristics to foreign counterparts, which allows, in the case of armed conflicts, to effectively solve combat missions.

If we turn to the experience of the leading countries of the world, then it can be stated that despite the difficult economic situation in the world, defense spending continues to be one of the priority items of expenditure in the budgets of leading countries.

R & D expenditures in the US military budget in 2010 amounted to about 11,5% and in real terms - $ 80 billion (1 figure). From this graph, it can be seen that in 2010, expenditures deducted to the US military budget exceeded those deducted to the military budget of European countries by about four times, the PRC - by 9,5 times, India - by 18 times. At the same time, the share of expenditures from the military budget for research and development by the Department of Defense of the USA is about 11%, which exceeds the share of expenditures from the military budget for research and development by the ministries of defense of the same countries, approximately two times.


During the First World War, there was a shortage of domestic small arms in the Russian army, and there were no tanks and aircraft of its own.


Relying on the armed forces as the main tool of foreign policy requires maintaining a constant military-technical and technological superiority of the US Armed Forces over any potential adversary and their high readiness to conduct military actions in any region of the world. The presence in the country of a well-developed and stably funded research and technology base within the federal budget makes it possible to create an appropriate reserve of modern weapons and military equipment and promising scientific and technical systems, as well as promotes weapons development programs of a new generation.

In the United States, an approach has been adopted whereby the best results and options for implementing the results of research and development (R & D) can be proposed and implemented by qualified specialists themselves in organizations engaged in such research. This ensures higher efficiency of research systems and provides significant savings in the implementation of programs for defense needs. The US military is aimed at obtaining at its disposal samples of weapons and military equipment based on advanced technical achievements and allowing them to achieve superiority in the conduct of combat operations of any scale.

Currently, the purchase of weapons for the army of a large state abroad is practically impossible. For example, in France carried out to equip its armed forces the production of self-propelled SAM Roland-2 and SAM short range Crotal Naval, amphibious Mistral-type ships, aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, multirole fighters Mirage 2000 and Rafale generation 4 ++, the main Leclerc battle tanks, assault rifles FAMAS. The development and production of all these complexes would have been impossible without the presence in the country of a developed element base, instrument engineering. The organization and implementation of the development and production of elements and weapon complexes in the country is a sign of its independence, an indicator of the scientific, technical and economic level.

At present, four major centers of scientific progress are forming in the world - the United States, the European Union, Japan and China. The Russian Federation, unfortunately, is not included in the group of leaders yet - our country accounts for less than 2% of world R & D spending.

In Russia, over the past 20-25 years, technical development has slowed down. We actually found ourselves on the sidelines of progress, in connection with which many now put forward slogans calling to buy weapons abroad, which could involve the country in the abyss of technical backwardness and, ultimately, bring damage to the entire economy and complete political dependence on importing countries. As soon as we adopt a policy of purchasing weapons abroad, we recognize that Russia cannot manufacture and develop modern equipment.


Figure 1. R & D expenditures in the military budgets of the leading countries in 2010


How can we agree that Russia is a backward country if we are developing the most modern WTO complexes. The Cornet-EM complex was created, it qualitatively surpasses all existing ATGMs not only in their main characteristics, but also has new properties. The same can be said about the ZRPK "Pantsir-С1". In the field of weapons complexes for armored vehicles (BTT), we have created unique in their characteristics complexes of guided weapons. Russia represented by the Design Bureau of Instrument Engineering OJSC (OJSC KBP, which is part of the holding company NPO High-Precision Complexes), is the creator of the concept for combining artillery and guided missiles in one system. This combination of tools allows you to significantly increase the technical level from 3 to 15 times, reduce the required number of combat units, which leads to a sharp reduction in costs, simplifies the management of troops on the battlefield. This unification was carried out not only in armored vehicles, but also in artillery and anti-aircraft complexes. Attempts to adopt the experience of such a combination are known in world practice, but nowhere have they been brought to such a level of technical excellence.

The very hypothesis of a widespread wide lag is wrong. The largest lag is in the field of electronic technology. Naturally, this gap should not affect the general characteristics and ultimately should be eliminated. This task should be solved in parts, through temporary purchases and organization of production, which should ensure the alignment of the technical level of electronic equipment and superiority due to the successful layout and construction of the system as a whole. In reality, all major domestic IWT developers follow this path.

At present, it seems useful to consider the possibility of acquiring in the West not finished military products, but technologies for which we have a critical lag. It is possible to acquire production of various elements, separate units and assemblies for weapons and military equipment, individual products, such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), with all the technical documentation and equipment needed to organize production in our country.

But a more effective way is to modernize our own enterprises by equipping them with modern equipment, incl. foreign production, training abroad of design engineers, workers.

It should not be a pure modernization, namely the creation of breakthrough systems and complexes, the basis of which is the abrupt achievement of a new level of characteristics and properties.

Let us consider what are the arguments in favor of the strategy of creating and developing weapons production in our country.

first. No one in the world exports new weapons. As a rule, weapons developed at least 10 years ago are sold. Thus, we will get weapons with a technical level, shifted by decades.

Second. If you buy a license for the production of weapons abroad, then you need some more time to master mass production. Time is added - the process of lag is still aggravated.


KBP has mastered the mass production of ZRPK "Pantsir-С1".


The third. The purchase of expensive equipment causes economic damage to the state and finances a foreign defense industry. The purchase of weapons or military equipment abroad leads to the fact that the money spent is withdrawn from domestic circulation, the money generally leaves the country. This development leads to technical, economic and political dependence.

Let's give an example. Suppose a decision is made to purchase, instead of the domestic BMP-2, the American analogue M2А3 Bradley. Its cost is about $ 13,7 million. It is necessary to purchase 1000 units with anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) and small-caliber guns to equip the Russian army. In addition, it will be necessary to introduce a new caliber in the army, which will violate the entire order and existing requirements for weapons and military equipment samples. As a result, the total costs may amount to about $ 20 billion, and besides, there will be a dependence on the external market in this industry, many domestic enterprises will remain without an order.

OJSC KBP offers domestic BMP-2M and BMD-4, which are developed and tested, in addition BMD-4 adopted by the Airborne Forces, and BMP 2М serially manufactured for deliveries abroad. The cost of these samples, together with the new ammunition, is about seven times lower than Bradley. At the same time, the former self-propelled base remains, which, although inferior to its foreign counterpart in characteristics, does not significantly affect the effectiveness of the use of the weapons complex. According to the technical level, our armament complex of combat vehicles will be ahead of the foreign equivalent. The funds received from the implementation of these promising samples, the company will invest in science and domestic development.

In our country, before 2020, huge funds are planned to be allocated for the development of the Armed Forces, the development and modernization of the production capacities of defense enterprises - about 20 trillion. rubles. Of these, more than 80% is planned to be spent on the purchase, production and development of new weapons. For these funds for almost 10 years in the country it will be possible to pay wages to nearly three million people.

Thus, when weapons and military equipment are developed, produced in Russia and delivered to the Russian army and, in certain quantities, for export, the funds received as a result of these measures will ultimately be paid to engineers and technical workers (ITR) and workers, employed in design organizations and directly in production in the defense industry. In turn, these people will be able to spend the money received, therefore, consumer demand in the country will increase.

Academician Abalkin, argued that the money invested in the defense industry is circulated domestically eight times (now this ratio is, of course, less due to the share of imports and is 3-4 times). And, ultimately, these funds go to all sectors of the economy: having mastered the funds allocated from the budget, the defense industry then stimulates many other industries and industries, such as metallurgical; production of non-metallic modern materials; electronic; chemical; medical; production of measuring instruments, control, communications, automotive, automotive engineering, etc.

If we link the above statement of Friedrich Engels with the modern era, we can say the following. Today, the defense industry is a technology leader. And so the need for its recovery is obvious. Arms sales are cash flow from abroad. We say that there is no investment, but if you sell weapons worth $ 10-15 billion, it will be an investment.

Fourth. Imagine for a minute the Russian Federation in a state of military conflict. Even in the presence of a full fleet of weapons during the fighting, it is necessary to repair and replenish it in a timely manner, the need to supply spare parts and ammunition. This is a huge expenditure of manpower and equipment, with the result that the country will lose its military independence. Do those who offer to buy weapons abroad think about this?

Fifth. There are circumstances that dictate the need for the development of weapons and military equipment - a vast country with extended borders that cannot be covered by conventional means. The absence of natural obstacles on the border (mountains, extended rivers) requires, on the one hand, reconnaissance and control of the state of space, and on the other hand, the possibility of striking at long distances with cheap and massive means, the ability to move impact forces, i.e. creating operational focus on operational areas. This requires specific weapons that can not be bought. Other consumers do not have such specific weapons.

In the USSR, with the resolution of this problem was better, there were natural boundary obstacles in the form of mountains, impassable spaces. Currently, the task of protecting the Russian territory is complicated, and the requirements for weapons systems are increasing dramatically.

Sixth. In connection with limited orders for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, at present there is a need to focus on arms supplies for export.

The development by enterprises of the Russian military-industrial complex of their own advanced weapons and the sale of military products for export will provide funds, much of which must be invested in new developments. Thus, deliveries abroad will not only revive our defense industry and keep it afloat, but also develop the main priority areas of the industry.

Export orientation in the defense industry is also necessary because the price of export drug products, consisting of R & D costs, production (including the purchase of materials, components, production modernization) and the intellectual component (“illiteracy tax "), Always several times higher than the cost of production of this MPP.

This suggests that its structure is similar to the price of hydrocarbons (oil and gas), with the difference that the number of people employed in the defense industry and related industries is greater than in the oil and gas industry. At the same time, the reserves of raw materials are greatly depleted. Accordingly, in the future, in the absence of new developed fields, the value of their exports may decrease. Another thing is the export of military products is not an exhaustible source. The main thing here is the availability of personnel with a high level of technical training and the availability of a production base.

The armament complex is the fruit of intellectual labor. You can invest your money in the development and as a result of product sales to make a profit, which will be sufficient for the effective functioning of the company.

Thus, the export of military products is the most important tool that allows enterprises to develop.

Consider for example the situation that has developed in the OJSC "KBP".

OJSC KBP is a multi-disciplinary organization of the military-industrial complex, specializing in the development of weapons systems of a tactical combat zone. The enterprise has so far developed, mastered in mass production and commissioned more than 140 samples of weapons and military equipment of the Russian army. The armament models created at OJSC KBP are of world renown. Steady demand for the company's products is ensured by the high technical level of its developments, and today it is used in more than 50 countries of the world. Samples of military equipment being developed do not only meet modern requirements for weapons, but are also promising.

At present, OJSC KBP is developing advanced weapons systems, both within the framework of the state defense order (GOZ) and at its own expense. During Soviet times, the R & D enterprise carried out was almost completely funded under the state defense order. At the end of the 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries, funding for development of the state defense order was sharply reduced. It was then that most of the research and development work of the PCU was performed at their own expense. The key to the survival of the enterprise was the fact that it had the opportunity to independently conclude contracts and carry out direct deliveries of weapons abroad and use the funds received for development.

The right to independent foreign economic activity remained with the KBP for about 10 years. During this time, when the number of employees in all enterprises of the defense industrial complex was catastrophically reduced, it was possible not only to preserve the number of enterprises, but also to double it: from 4,2 thousand people. to 8,6 thous. At the same time, about 15 thousand more. was employed in enterprises that participated in cooperation in the development and manufacture of our products.

In the period 2000-2009. the volume of funds received from the supply of weapons and military equipment for export was about 20 times the amount of funds from supplies through the state defense order. In 2010, there was a tendency to an increase in the volumes of the state defense order, which is primarily due to the start of serial deliveries of the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile system (ZRPK). However, despite this, at present the volume of funds received from deliveries abroad exceeds the volume of funds from deliveries to the Russian army by about 5,0-6,6 times (table 1).


The right to independent foreign economic activity allowed the company to finance its own R & D. With the use of significant own funds, KBP developed and mastered the mass production of the modern PIR-AIR ZRPK, which is currently being supplied for the needs of the RF Ministry of Defense, the combat compartment for the BMP-2, and also completed work on BMD-4. On a proactive basis, the advanced multi-purpose Cornet-EM anti-tank complex and the unique Krasnopol-МХNUMX controlled artillery projectile (UAS) were fully developed.

At present, the enterprise supplies military products through the state intermediary of Rosoboronexport OJSC. The amount of R & D funding from the State Defense Order is insufficient. In order to achieve the technical level corresponding to 2030-2050. and ensuring unconditional competitiveness of its developments in the global market, OJSC KBP strives annually to increase the amount of funding for research and development work carried out in a proactive manner. However, the amount of funds allocated for initiative R & D is currently less than when the enterprise had the right to independent foreign economic activity (FEA).

Creating your own high-performance weapons in the country is a complex and multifaceted process. Investing in advanced weapons and military equipment should go in accordance with the chosen military-technical strategy, which should be based on developments that surpass the world level.


In its own way, the Krasnopol-М2 controlled artillery shell (UAS), unique in its characteristics, was developed.


The main link in the chain of creation of modern weapons is firms capable of developing and producing military products endowed with the right to independently conduct foreign economic activity. This fully meets the basic requirements of a modern market economy. For the stable functioning of the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, it is necessary to have a constant scientific and technical reserve for promising R & D, for which part of the profit will be required.

It also requires state regulation, which is carried out through orders for science (through research and development), the supply of finished products manufactured by industry according to technical requirements agreed with the RF Ministry of Defense, financing the development and improvement of the technological base (through the implementation of FTP), and training.

When developing a strategy for military-technical development of Russian weapons, it is necessary to assess the suitability of existing weapons by the types most demanded in the world today: tanks, artillery, combat helicopters, anti-tank systems, and air defense systems.

According to the results of the assessment, it is necessary to classify all types of technology into groups:

• The first group includes equipment that is already in the army, but is not suitable for further service due to obsolescence;

• the second group includes equipment available and which can be upgraded with a high technical and economic coefficient;

• the third group includes equipment that corresponds to the world level, but not ordered by the army or ordered in limited quantities;

• The fourth group includes newly developed equipment. In this case, a mandatory requirement should be the achievement of high technical and economic indicators, including an increase in efficiency from 2 to 5 times.

In the aggregate, all samples must constitute an integral self-sufficient system of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

In a special group it is necessary to allocate the development of breakthrough technologies that provide new qualities and properties.

Creating your own weapons - is the way to raise the entire country. For the development of weapons systems it is necessary to conduct developments at a high level and the presence of a creative team, trained and highly qualified personnel. The question is, is there any reason for this in Russia? Yes, since the main thing is that there are still people who have received high-quality education, not spoiled by the unified state examinations (EGE), who have experience in developing advanced weapons. Unfortunately, these specialists are older than 40 years, but there is still a generation from 30 to 40 years, which has found strong teachers in schools and universities that have high-quality training and the potential for engineering.


The Kornet-EM complex qualitatively surpasses all existing ATGMs not only in their basic characteristics, but also has new properties.


In his report to the State Duma 28 in February 2012, Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, Chairman of the Military Industrial Commission Dmitry Rogozin said: “Today there is no point in catching up with someone and following the beaten track. We need to move away from the square-cluster way of thinking, look not at tomorrow, but in the day after tomorrow. ”

Thus, the existing lag behind the leading Western countries needs to be eliminated on its own, directing money not only to modernize and develop new-generation weapon systems, significantly superior in their tactical and technical level to existing models, but also to create fundamentally new military technical equipment.
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  1. fenix57
    fenix57 April 13 2013 07: 57
    42
    , "Is it better to buy weapons abroad or equip the Russian army with domestic weapons?"- it seems to me that the question is from the RHEETORICAL section. Of course, to equip with DOMESTIC. soldier
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 08: 28
      25 th
      It is necessary to find a middle ground. To date, not a single army possesses 100% of domestic weapons. Even the United States purchases some weapons abroad.
      1. Kolya
        Kolya April 13 2013 09: 04
        19
        The fifth column for the purchase of arms abroad!
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 09: 11
          14 th
          "patriot", start with yourself. Throw the American processor out of your computer - maybe there are bookmarks. wink Transfer to Lada (no, it’s impossible, it’s Fiat) or Zaporozhets (the same is Ukrainian). The list goes on and on and to the point of absurdity.
          I repeat, a middle ground is needed. even the USSR bought weapons abroad.
          1. Denis
            Denis April 13 2013 09: 16
            +7
            Quote: Professor
            USSR bought weapons abroad
            When, during the construction of the Red Army?
            demagogy
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 09: 21
              -1
              When, during the construction of the Red Army?

              In the era of developed socialism, dear. Starting with aircraft, ships ending with tires for mobile missile systems. About the equipment of strategic plants in general I am silent.
              1. Denis
                Denis April 13 2013 10: 31
                +8
                Quote: Professor
                Starting with aircraft, ships
                This is interesting, if with specifics, names, numbers ...
                Of the ships, only the ice class that were built in Finland according to our project are remembered, but these are more likely ships, because not military
                But from aircraft ... If only Czech training L-39
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 13 2013 10: 38
                  -3
                  Poland was building our fleet in full, on one even I had the chance to serve. In addition to the Czech training L-39 there were also Mi-2 ...
                  So dig and find a lot more. I was not interested in tsiferok, but the fact of the presence of foreign equipment in the USSR on the face. And there’s nothing wrong with that. hi
                  1. Denis
                    Denis April 13 2013 10: 56
                    +6
                    Quote: Professor
                    Mi-2 ...
                    Yes, this is a true Polish helicopter, only it seems they called him Lim
                    Of course, this is due to the backwardness and inability of the military-industrial complex, well, no politics
                    1. Professor
                      Professor April 13 2013 13: 00
                      -3
                      Yes, this is a true Polish helicopter, only it seems they called him Lim
                      Of course, this is due to the backwardness and inability of the military-industrial complex, well, no politics

                      Do not engage in demagogy, it was labeled Made in Poland and it was in service with the USSR.
                      1. Raven1972
                        Raven1972 April 13 2013 13: 35
                        20
                        And what did Professor, his Poles come up with? No, they were just given candy in the form of the possibility of its production (like An-2) in order to unload their industry for something more necessary, and they did not have Mi-2 as widespread in the USSR Armed Forces as the same Mi-8 ... And at that time Poland was part of the CMEA, and the Warsaw Treaty, so that it cannot be considered completely abroad ... And nothing more serious was adopted in the CMEA countries (meaning for the USSR)
                      2. Ineducable
                        Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 39
                        12 th
                        Quote: Raven1972
                        yes and didn’t

                        Was he in the army? It was. Made in Poland? In Poland. Abroad? Abroad. The rest is not important, the very fact that he was.
                      3. Raven1972
                        Raven1972 April 13 2013 14: 37
                        +9
                        Excuse me Mi-2 - attack helicopter? No Designed in the USSR? Yes. Produced under our license? Yes, the number in the USSR Armed Forces was decisive? No Do not distort, you perfectly understood what I was talking about, he did not play a decisive role in this, as you say, FACT ...
                      4. skeptic
                        skeptic April 13 2013 18: 35
                        11
                        Quote: Uneducable
                        Was he in the army? It was. Made in Poland? In Poland. Abroad? Abroad. The rest is not important, the very fact that he was.


                        You have a cool topic. The Warsaw Pact countries were allies, as were NATO countries on the other side. The USSR redistributed declassified equipment to the factories of the treaty, and also ordered auxiliary equipment abroad that did not have a risk to the country's defense. Yes, you can buy foreign technology for your industry or machine tools, but! Any weaponry that can be blocked or re-targeted should not be acquired under any circumstances. Any talk about "the decency of the seller" does not have a priori basis, especially with the possibility of a potential conflict.
                    2. Professor
                      Professor April 13 2013 13: 43
                      +4
                      Yes, and nothing more serious of the armament in service in the CMEA countries was produced (for the USSR, it means)

                      Thank God the submarines did it themselves, although if I’m not mistaken, they bought for them in Japan. Nevertheless, the USSR itself could produce steamboats and Mi-2 and Dana, but here the national economy was already torn, IMHO if they had not inflated the military-industrial complex to such a size, then you would see and the USSR would be intact.
                    3. Raven1972
                      Raven1972 April 13 2013 14: 32
                      +6
                      And they themselves made rockets, tanks, small arms, radio equipment and SVP, ekranoplanes, and much, much more ... The military-industrial complex has nothing to do with the collapse of the USSR, that’s what the betrayal was at the top — yes, fact, that may be why it was intentionally overloaded the economy to bring it under the limit ...
                    4. Professor
                      Professor April 13 2013 14: 37
                      -6
                      The military-industrial complex has nothing to do with the collapse of the USSR

                      Even as it has. Empty store shelves forgotten?
                    5. Raven1972
                      Raven1972 April 13 2013 15: 07
                      +7
                      Professor, everyone has long been aware of WHO and HOW created a "deficit" in the USSR, especially in the 80s .... So let's not)))) hi
                    6. Professor
                      Professor April 13 2013 15: 17
                      -1
                      Professor, everyone has long been aware of WHO and HOW created a "deficit" in the USSR, especially in the 80s ...

                      No, let's be. At that time, I was already undergoing the practice of the Criminal Procedure Code and saw how it was all done and in collective farms "they collected potatoes" and in student detachments. Enlighten me.
                    7. Raven1972
                      Raven1972 April 13 2013 20: 18
                      +7
                      Professor to educate you - only to spoil)))) Is the topic outlined? I think you want it - you will find it yourself .... tired of already chewing ...
                      py.s. But we collected potatoes and I’m not at all embarrassed about this hi
                    8. aksakal
                      aksakal April 15 2013 00: 49
                      +2
                      Quote: Raven1972
                      Professor to educate you - only to spoil)))) Is the topic outlined? I think you want it - you will find it yourself .... tired of already chewing ...
                      - professor in his role, as I guess? Yeah, I'm glad I saved me from having to read his "posts" wassat
                    9. Basarev
                      Basarev 31 January 2014 22: 29
                      0
                      Gold were times (extension cord).
                2. Ascetic
                  Ascetic April 13 2013 23: 52
                  +5
                  Quote: Raven1972
                  Professor, everyone has long been aware of WHO and HOW created a "deficit" in the USSR, especially in the 80s .... So let's not))))


                  The main thing of the Common Man was to be convinced that socialism was not able to cope even with such nonsense as the timely delivery of essential goods. Therefore, they created a deficit and prepared the mass consciousness for the transition to capitalism. For example, the well-known case when in 1988. when the GOSPLANOM almost all tobacco factories simultaneously put in scheduled repairs and Bulgarian imports naturally could not close their consumption .. At the Riga market in Moscow they even sold cigarette butts in three-liter cans. And why explain the shortage of soap, toothpaste, powder? Monster MIC? Well, the nonsense is obvious, driven into our heads by western voices.


                  Vladimir T. • a year ago -
                  I remember in those past 90s, when the shelves of all the stores, including in our Petrozavodsk, were strangely empty, a friend of mine told me how he and his comrades were observing one of our grocery stores. They themselves were in a passenger car. They started to take out some boxes from the store and load them into the van, which was standing near the store. Fully loaded, the van set sail. Watching him. We drove, rode and came to a suburban forest. There, the observers were surprised and indignant at the fact that from this van all the boxes of food were simply thrown out in the forest more often. We, said my acquaintance, came up and asked why they were doing such a disgrace? The answer was this: we have nothing to do with it - we received instructions from Moscow itself !!! This is how popular discontent and unrest were prepared.
                3. Was mammoth
                  Was mammoth April 14 2013 00: 03
                  +3
                  Quote: Ascetic
                  Therefore, they created a deficit, prepared the mass consciousness for the transition to capitalism.

                  To create a hype for any product, it is enough to create a short-term five percent deficit. I don’t remember which of the economists said that.
                4. Ascetic
                  Ascetic April 14 2013 00: 03
                  +5
                  Igor181 • a year ago
                  One more example:

                  An acquaintance of mine worked in Nizhny Novgorod during the Soviet era on the basis of children's toys. To my question about the shortage of toys at that time, he replied: "Yes, there was no shortage! There was nowhere to put toys - boxes with them were even in the corridors. But, most importantly, they did not give orders from above for the supply of these toys to stores, but encouraged sales "left-handed" and at other (speculative) prices. "

                  This is how they prepared the future class of "capitalists" - they concentrated their funds in the hands of directors of trade bases. With a distant sight worked "product-look for"
                5. aksakal
                  aksakal April 15 2013 01: 04
                  +3
                  Quote: Ascetic
                  For example, the well-known case when in 1988. when the Gosplan almost all tobacco factories at the same time put on a scheduled repair
                  - Ascetic, welcome! A slightly different version of this tobacco hunger. Perestroika dawned, very mobile sales representatives of the leading Western tobacco companies sensed the opening of a new vast market, which, of course, had its own players, but weak and completely inexperienced in the fierce competition. I remember reading an interview with the general director of Almaty tobacco, how he rejoiced at the arrival of elements of a market economy, the law "On the Enterprise". He was asked if Philip Morris and other heavyweights could come, the gendir - let them come, Almaty tobacco has strong brands - Kazakhstanskie, Medeo cigarettes, 90% of the market, the rest - Russian Java and Bulgarian, in short, we will tear these Morrisov like a hot water bottle! And then again - and filters for cigarettes, produced at the only specialized enterprise in Armenia, disappeared! And an enterprise cannot produce products that are not in accordance with GOST - these were the rules of Soviet production. Ears are visible well, Ascetic! Inexperienced Soviet enterprises were waiting for a duel according to boxing rules, but they were bent down in general for fights without rules! I won’t be surprised that that gender of the filter plant in Armenia is already a millionaire and his children are millionaires! From the tobacco hunger, the people tasted Marlboro and got hooked on imports. Power Marketing is a good thing! This is the version, and it does not beat a little with your version. Although, in general, you correctly noted that the USSR was deliberately destroyed, and was destroyed at the very top, because it was beneficial only to the top, which was pretty rotten, and they had the necessary powers and resources!
                6. shpuntik
                  shpuntik April 15 2013 02: 59
                  +2
                  Quite so. There is a video recording of the program "600 seconds", where Nevzorov shows tobacco products at the city dump. Moreover, in volumes, not just one truck. And the time was already scarce, the people were fluff without tobacco. Well, then someone shot at the journalist, he miraculously survived, and somehow quietly: everything is further, further away ... Now he communicates with horses, it’s calmer.
                7. Denis
                  Denis April 15 2013 10: 38
                  0
                  Quote: shpuntik
                  Well, then someone shot a journalist, he miraculously survived
                  From a self-made pistol under the MK cartridge?
                  The most interesting thing is that in the hospital of the Ministry of Internal Affairs where he was taken, of course, as an honest journalist should be in the general’s chamber, his doctors, nurses, etc. went.
                  Local only took out the garbage and did not find it, curiosity is not a vice, there is not a single bloody bandage in it
                  So this one lied ...
                  PR, he and then PR
          2. Simon
            Simon April 13 2013 23: 43
            +2
            On this account it is necessary to ask Gorbach.
          3. Eric
            Eric April 16 2013 11: 45
            0
            It has an artificial shortage, and you took it for "empty shelves" ...
          4. Mohomax
            Mohomax 24 May 2013 11: 40
            0
            The military-industrial complex is not to blame for this. Firstly: the character of the planned economy, our compatriots did for their own and for the idea. Factory marriage was commonplace. Secondly: corn, namely failure with it, forced us to borrow money to provide bread for our compatriots. And thirdly: the lack of market relations if you know what I mean.
      2. smile
        smile April 13 2013 14: 48
        +7
        Professor (1)
        Sorry, but the problem of having our military-industrial complex on the hump of the Union is greatly exaggerated ... you remember - when reforming our country, the first thing we did was kill the military-industrial complex .... somehow this didn’t help us economically ... rather the opposite.
      3. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 15: 19
        11 th
        killed the military-industrial complex ....

        They decided to carry out a conversion so that people would be put on and dressed, but the military-industrial complex was unable to function economically. Suddenly it turned out that labor productivity is low and the quality is terrible.
    2. skeptic
      skeptic April 13 2013 18: 58
      13
      Quote: Professor
      but the national economy was already torn, IMHO if it weren’t for the military-industrial complex to be inflated to such a size, then you look and the USSR would be intact.


      Well, my friend, you don’t know the real story, but you are repeating liberal fabrications. The USSR collapsed because of the "rotten head" The shape-shifters wanted to take the country's wealth into their own property and took the Great Country away along the "national mink". And empty shelves are the "work" of rats from the State Planning Commission. Redistribution of goods - fur coats in Fergana, panamas in Murmansk. Creation of artificial scarcity is the main way to displease the existing authorities. The factories where decent managers worked were able to withstand even during the period of lawlessness of the 90s, which proves only one thing - the military-industrial complex not only did not ruin the country's economy, but was also able to bring income to the country, as it is now.
    3. Raven1972
      Raven1972 April 13 2013 20: 58
      +2
      + To you, I would not say better ... good hi
    4. jjj
      jjj April 13 2013 23: 53
      +4
      I would like to clarify a little. The deficit was created also because it made it easier to earn underground capital. Where there is a deficit, there are "stuck". And when there were a lot of people who wanted to live beautifully in this way, it turned out what happened. Unfortunately, the "Kremlin elders" also contributed to
    5. aksakal
      aksakal April 15 2013 01: 15
      +2
      Quote: skeptic
      The military-industrial complex not only did not ruin the country's economy, but was also able to generate income for the country, as it is now.
      - a thousand pluses, Skeptic! But in part, it was in the USSR that the military-industrial complex still pressed on the hump of the USSR, but not through its own fault, but because of the peculiarities of the economic structure of the USSR. There was no transfer of technology from the military-industrial complex to civilian industry. The military-industrial complex is not to blame for this, the economic system itself was not very good. Examples? Here - where did the cellular communication appear? "Altai" ... Why didn't it go into commercialization? Well, unless the elected party bigwigs in their "Volga" was installed, that's all the commercialization ... Here's the military-industrial complex operating time would benefit the national economy. But not. The Internet. Did he show up at the Pentagon? laughing laughing Data transfer - in general, this is the topic of Zhores Alferov, for this he received the Nobel Prize, and he created the first network for the needs of the Moscow Region. But she was immediately classified. But the amers decided to commercialize - they are reaping the fruits. In this situation, the military-industrial complex really sat on the hump of a heavy weight. Now there would be a situation where the military-industrial complex of the USSR was mighty, but to correct these features of the national economy a little - amers would have swallowed dust !!!!
  2. gladysheff2010
    gladysheff2010 April 13 2013 14: 34
    +2
    Using the unpatented Russian technology, one Polish engineer stabilized the Leaning Tower of Pisa, which was exactly in the era of perestroika and taking away secrets.
  3. berserk1967
    berserk1967 April 13 2013 18: 36
    +1
    Only now all these weapons were developed in the Soviet design bureaus and were built in the same Poland and Czechoslovakia using Soviet technologies. The only L-39 is a purely Czech development.
  4. Simon
    Simon April 13 2013 23: 40
    0
    Professor, you want to say that Kalashnikovs are not our invention, and they weren’t manufactured here? Since they were released by Hungary, Romania, East Germany, China and many other countries.
  5. Denis
    Denis April 14 2013 00: 59
    0
    Quote: Professor
    it was labeled Made in Poland
    Come on you!
    On the barn you don’t even say what is written, but there is only firewood in it
    Agree, the inscription is very conditional

    PS both inscriptions
  6. Setrac
    Setrac April 14 2013 22: 32
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Do not engage in demagogy, it was labeled Made in Poland and it was in service with the USSR.

    Poland was an ally of the USSR, France, Germany and Italy are not such, the United States buys from its allies, Russia also buys from Belarus.
  7. Denis
    Denis April 15 2013 01: 22
    +1
    Quote: Setrac
    Poland was ...
    Is this a country, not ...?
  • Genady1976
    Genady1976 April 13 2013 11: 03
    +2
    all these are Soviet developments. And there is nothing shameful in this.
    They bought small lots and technologies in the West in 20-30gg.
    1. Gazprom
      Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 05
      31 th
      They bought small lots and technologies in the West in 20-30gg.

      and all?
      and land lease and trampled and copied bomber does not count.
      atomic bomb brazenly stubborn?
      German trophy technology?
      1. zart_arn
        zart_arn April 13 2013 11: 16
        +7
        All without exception are engaged in scientific and technical espionage. It was and always will be, there is nothing surprising and shameful in this. In general, I agree with the ideology of hackers that information is a universal property and should be open to everyone. Humanity will only gain from this.
      2. Gazprom
        Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 20
        -6
        that information is a common heritage and should be open to all. Humanity will only gain from this

        more than debatable.
      3. Genady1976
        Genady1976 April 13 2013 11: 31
        +5
        won't sell the west to us high-tech weapons
      4. Gazprom
        Gazprom April 13 2013 12: 10
        -3
        so are we to them, but something quite,
        that is, not top-level, but of a very high class, you can buy \ steal
      5. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 13: 01
        -7
        won't sell the west to us high-tech weapons

        Selling almost everything for money.
      6. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 13: 57
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        Selling almost everything for money.

        Only sell what we ourselves can produce!
      7. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 14: 01
        +1
        And technology and equipment will sell. The USSR has never disdained such methods.
      8. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak April 13 2013 14: 51
        +8
        Quote: Professor
        And technology and equipment will sell.

        What are you talking about. Everyone sitting here has the clearest example of the sale by Israel of far from the drones that Russia requested. America yelled at Israel, Israel, as a naughty little dog pinched its tail and announced the impossibility of selling that model. Or am I missing something and it turns out that Russia has sold the latest development? Sorry Tady ... smiling.
        And you don’t remember what hysteria the states had when they learned about the Japanese selling metalworking machines?
        Or a recent example. When amers banned the sale of microchips to a Russian company that entered the supercomputer market with its products.
        Here are some examples of technology and equipment. They will sell it, but it's all old. So, God forbid, Russia is not ahead.
      9. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 15: 14
        0
        Or am I missing something and it turns out that Russia has sold the latest development? Sorry Tady ... smiling.

        Missed. Russia decided to punish Elbit for 8.8.8 and did not even turn to him. Here is the result. Recently, relations have become warmer and Elbit ordered components for the Superjet. fellow
      10. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak April 13 2013 15: 27
        +4
        Quote: Professor
        Russia decided to punish Elbit for 8.8.8

        What makes you think about "punishment"? Which toe?
        You jump from topic to topic.
        There are two big differences between the finished UAV type product and components in the form of blocks for avionics, and you try to replace one with the other. Manipulation is called today. In Soviet times, it was demagogy.

        And please, fill out a quote through the "Reply" button and then "Quote" after it, it is very difficult to determine by the letter who came to the post office to whom the answer is addressed. Yes, and this is not visible on the site. fellow
      11. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 16: 11
        -2
        Quote: Hedgehog
        Quote: Professor
        Russia decided to punish Elbit for 8.8.8

        What makes you think about "punishment"? Which toe?
        You jump from topic to topic.

        Just don't be rude. In Israel, it was like this covered. A couple of years later, before the arrival of the Russian delegation, unfinished Georgian Mi-24s were "hidden" on Elbit so as not to irritate new customers. So they would buy a Hermes-450, IMHO it will be more interesting than what they bought.
      12. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak April 13 2013 17: 12
        +5
        Quote: Professor
        Just do not be rude

        Excuse me, is this rudeness?
        Quote: Professor
        "hid" unfinished Georgian Mi-24

        How frivolous. The whole world knows that Israeli companies are modernizing avionics. All of Russia knows that these devices are installed in Russian civil engineering. I doubt that this was an occasion. Nobody forbade anyone from this.
        As I understand it, the purchase of drones in Israel was made with the aim of buying technology. However, as we know further, the screwdriver assembly did not advance. Israel categorically refuses to sell technology. And you say that you can buy technology. It seems like a lie. request
  • Simon
    Simon April 13 2013 23: 53
    0
    To the point said Hedgehog! well done. Plus to you!
  • ultra
    ultra April 14 2013 00: 40
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    And technology and equipment will sell.

    I remember remember because of a couple of Toshiba machines, howling was all over the universe! In the states, even the home appliances of the poor Japanese were beaten by Amer patriots! hi
  • smile
    smile April 13 2013 15: 25
    +4
    Professor
    Unfortunately, I don’t know the details, but I remember, when acquiring Israeli drones, we tried to acquire at the same time and something newer, though not the newest ... we have officially spread the version that the deal fell through due to the refusal of the Israeli side ... perhaps because of US pressure ... so I suppose they’re unlikely to sell the most delicious to us .. (I would, in any case, try to prevent this from happening in the US :))).
  • Ezhaak
    Ezhaak April 13 2013 17: 17
    +2
    Quote: smile
    in place of the Americans I would try to prevent this :))).

    That is exactly what happened. The states intervened and the Israelis tightened their tails, agreeing to sell only old models. Ours agreed in the hope of selling technology, but here the Israelis rested. Specifically, they do not refuse, but they do not transmit.
  • DEfindER
    DEfindER April 13 2013 19: 04
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Selling almost everything for money.

    Unfortunately, this is not so, or they forgot how we were denied the purchase of AMD, because it is in the processor technology that we are inferior, and although our Elbrus processor is superior in logic to the bourgeois one, but inferior in frequency, the 300 MHz limit must be overcome, and such technologies we are not ..
  • zvereok
    zvereok April 13 2013 20: 58
    +1
    Remind the story of Opel?
  • zart_arn
    zart_arn April 13 2013 12: 03
    +1
    This is not my opinion, but the opinion of hackers, but with something I agree with them. Tell me, for example, do you have all the software licensed?
  • Basarev
    Basarev 1 February 2014 12: 02
    0
    Today is information, tomorrow is Arctic waters, and the day after tomorrow is all of Russia in general?
    I fundamentally disagree with you.
  • Ezhaak
    Ezhaak April 13 2013 13: 55
    +1
    You do not realize that the West also stole all possible samples from the USSR. An example with the MIG-25, I think you will not be enough.
  • zart_arn
    zart_arn April 13 2013 18: 43
    -1
    Moreover, both American and Soviet scientists threw off information on weapons of mass destruction as patriots of their countries and completely free of charge only so that some dumbhead hawk wouldn’t demolish the roof and wave a vigorous club. Parity he sobering everyone - WMD is not created for war, but paradoxically sounds - for the world.
  • Raven1972
    Raven1972 April 13 2013 13: 57
    +4
    If I give you the blueprints for the atomic bomb, will you make it? The answer is no, for this you need to have your own developments and technologies on this topic, otherwise it doesn’t, and our bomb differed in design from the American one by the fact that it was originally airborne ... So enough about the fact that everything was stolen, everything was stolen and so forth
    And about the Tu-4 - everything is very simple there - it was faster to copy, because they needed an AB delivery vehicle, and the USSR simply didn’t have SUCH class aircraft, the Union did not carry out long-range carpet bombing .... In the meantime, they did Tu-4, Myasishchev already created 3 MS and 4 MS ...
    About German trophies: the question is - did the Americans not steal anything? Werner Von Braun for example .... And why should we not use it? Or do you have the principle - they can and we no way? Are you probably a democrat?
  • jjj
    jjj April 14 2013 00: 03
    0
    When ours built an American bomb at the same time as ours, we were very surprised. And they realized that the Americans do not know how to make atomic bombs. And if we recall the hydrogen Sakharovskaya. Or about the so-called suitcase bombs
  • 73petia
    73petia April 14 2013 00: 22
    0
    The set of drawings for the "atomic bomb" should include maps with explored deposits of ores of fissile material (echelons are needed for one bomb), drawings of plants for enriching these ores to the required purity, drawings of plants for the separation of 235 and 238 uranium isotopes, (by the way, isotope separation technology centrifugation is purely our know-how, the Americans have tried and thrown, they did not succeed) drawings of reactors in which plutonium will be "produced", drawings of plants that will separate this plutonium from spent reactor "fuel", etc. In general, these drawings there should be dozens of echelons with papers.
  • 1st_user
    1st_user April 13 2013 17: 55
    +2
    Arrogantly stubborn ??? Well, this is an excess. Comrades Kurchatov and Tamm in a coffin probably turned over from such a statement. negative
  • 73petia
    73petia April 13 2013 23: 40
    0
    He is not shabby, they flew by themselves.
  • Simon
    Simon April 13 2013 23: 51
    0
    Amerians have also put a lot of stuff into them, especially in the 90s.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 1 February 2014 12: 08
    0
    Yak-141 technologies were stolen and the F-35 was created
  • Denis
    Denis April 14 2013 00: 10
    0
    Quote: Gazprom
    and land lease and trampled and copied bomber does not count.
    atomic bomb brazenly stubborn?
    And now, do you have to obey?
    But ... in short, you will wait a long time
    And schoolchildren should not argue about Lend-Lease, since the mind only reached the second part of the word
  • rereture
    rereture April 14 2013 13: 21
    0
    Quote: Gazprom
    atomic bomb


    Well, you know, we developed it independently of the United States, from scratch. Even in type, their first bomb and ours are different.
    By the way, we were the first to invent a bomb based on a thermonuclear reaction.
  • Alexey Prikazchikov
    Alexey Prikazchikov April 13 2013 11: 29
    -2
    Bhutan Kamok for warriors was made of excellent Czechoslovak fabric.
  • Ezhaak
    Ezhaak April 13 2013 13: 52
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    Czech training L-39s were also Mi-2s ...

    Well, you probably still understand, if you really understand that MI-2s were nevertheless designed in the USSR and given to the Poles in the order of cooperation. They only made. With the ships a little differently, the hulls of their ships are Soviet. L-29 is not combat, but training. Ahineah you carry, my dear. And brag about a few more candidates. Moreover, you do not take into account the existence of cooperation between the countries of the Warsaw Pact. And, knowing all this, you are deliberately trying to mislead people. What the Israelis buy they also buy from their "friends". Likewise, the Americans.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 14: 08
      +3
      You carry nonsense, dear. And boast a few more candidates. Moreover, you do not take into account the existence of cooperation between the Warsaw Pact countries.

      They didn’t buy from a good life, but because their capacities could not cope with orders. I know this at 100% in shipbuilding. So in the USSR, steamboats were built longer than in the West and there was no free slipway, and there was no new money. By the way, western equipment was actively used in the construction of Soviet aircraft carriers. For example, Finnish gantry cranes on the zero slipway. There were none of ours, but without them there is no way.
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 1 February 2014 12: 11
        0
        A bearer and a carrying cruiser are not synonyms!
    2. Denis
      Denis April 15 2013 16: 12
      0
      Quote: Hedgehog
      and given to the Poles in the order of cooperation.
      Rather, not to die of hunger and stink-yelling less
  • vjhbc
    vjhbc April 13 2013 14: 08
    0
    all the weapons were ours but to tighten the allies they were given production technology and we bought from them
    Quote: Professor
    Poland was building our fleet in full, on one even I had the chance to serve. In addition to the Czech training L-39 there were also Mi-2 ...
    So dig and find a lot more. I was not interested in tsiferok, but the fact of the presence of foreign equipment in the USSR on the face. And there’s nothing wrong with that. hi
  • Ascetic
    Ascetic April 13 2013 11: 15
    11
    Quote: Professor
    tires for mobile missile systems


    What is this miracle? If we mean TPK, then they have been made of carbon fiber or fiberglass at the Avangard Production Association (Smolensk Region, Safonovo) since time immemorial.
    link

    Does camouflage coating mean? We also developed in the USSR research and development R&D Zarosl, Metanit, Target, Warranty, which resulted in the creation of camouflage coatings for PGRK.
    Rubber is also not Michelin .. MZKT (then MAZ) however. If there was anything foreign at the PGRK, then apart from the Yugoslav batteries on the MAZ chassis, I can’t remember anything.
    There was an experimental six-axle tractor MAZ-7904.Therefore, Japanese tire Bridgestone was ordered for it. Wheel diameter 3,1m. But since 1984, on subsequent projects, domestic tires with a diameter of 2 and 1,66 m have been used.
    on 7906 7907 (24 wheels and all leading)
    SKSH MZKT-79221 under the Topol-M APU has tires 1600x600-685, model VI – 178A (VI – 178AU) or VI – 203





  • LION
    LION April 14 2013 23: 08
    -3
    But why. The engine for the MIG 15 was purchased from Rolls-Royce (Nene, I could be wrong). Just how it was possible is a big question. In general, if our army doesn’t have something, you need to buy it urgently or steal it. I would steal the following: a Huey helicopter, a Beretta pistol, F 16, an MP 5 machine gun pistol, Hercules. Well, that's all.
  • Alexey Prikazchikov
    Alexey Prikazchikov April 13 2013 09: 30
    +5
    The professor agrees with you. What we really produce and at the level is what we need to buy from our own. And the fact that there is no abroad, but at the same time we take to the maximum all the technologies that you can buy. And we are setting up production at our place. So the USSR did before the Iron Curtain and it didn’t hurt then they wandered.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 09: 33
      0
      So the USSR did before the Iron Curtain and it didn’t hurt then they wandered.

      Be careful, now the jingoists will run up and prove with a foam at the mouth that everything was 100% Soviet in the SA. laughing
  • Masterzserg
    Masterzserg April 13 2013 11: 57
    +6
    Quote: Professor
    Throw the American processor out of your computer - maybe there are bookmarks. Transfer to Lada (no, it’s impossible, it’s Fiat) or Zaporozhets (the same is Ukrainian).
    - What does the fret or the processor have to do with it? First, we are talking about security, in this matter the "golden mean" can turn into a black extreme. Secondly, there are both Russian processors and a fret for 200r. not deservedly watered with mud, my father has been driving for 3 years, there was a malfunction with the speedometer and alarm, that's it! But again, if you buy something for a penny, don't expect super results. And Kalina is not even close to Fiat - you are stupid.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 13: 07
      0
      Secondly, there are also Russian processors

      Take a screenshot from your computer and show us. Is there really a Russian processor? By the way, how can I say processor in Russian? wink

      But again, if you buy something for a penny - do not expect super results.

      Of course, but even for a lot of money you can’t buy what is not in nature.
      By the way, the USA once decided not to engage in the development and production of televisions and nothing, their patriots survived. laughing
      1. Masterzserg
        Masterzserg April 13 2013 13: 57
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        Take a screenshot from your computer and show us. Is there really a Russian processor? By the way, how can I say processor in Russian?
        You look in Yandex, you won’t have to search for a long time.
        Quote: Professor
        By the way, how can I say processor in Russian?
        There are a lot of borrowed words in Russian, did you try to cut it off? Confess Petrosyan is your teacher? laughing
        Quote: Professor
        By the way, the USA once decided not to engage in the development and production of televisions and nothing, their patriots survived.
        - it is not a matter of satisfying a patriotic feeling, if you still do not understand, it is a matter of the country's security. Just buying means not developing your own, which means they may not sell at the right time, that means they will not sell the best weapons, stupidly they can insert a small scheme and simply pressing the button doesn’t work, etc. etc .. Obvious things I write, even boring. No.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 14: 11
          +2
          Just buying means not developing your

          Drop your emotions and try to make it clear that it is impossible to have everything of your own. Even the United States with its unstoppable printing mill does not have all of its own. And patriotism should be healthy, not paranoid.
          1. Masterzserg
            Masterzserg April 13 2013 14: 24
            +3
            Quote: Professor
            that it’s impossible to have everything of your own.
            - Firstly, it is possible, especially in a large country, with all almost what the planet can give! Another thing is that producing something is not profitable, for example, entering the world market with a Russian computer or software is almost unrealistic. But in questions of armament there can be no concept of "profitable", it can only be interests of the country.
            Quote: Professor
            And patriotism should be healthy, not paranoid.
            - patriotism can be anything, now the question is not in patriotism, but in common sense. The point is not to "catch up and overtake America", but that the purchase of weapons harms the security of the country if the purchase is not made to develop its own.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 14: 33
              0
              But in questions of armament there can be no concept of "profitable", it can only be in the interests of the country.

              I "in a past life" dealt with shipbuilding (ChSZ) and I dare to assure you that neither Russia nor the entire former Soviet Union is able to provide itself with surface ships. There is no one to build them, young people do not want to be engaged in welding in ballast tanks. Pay them like in the West? Where will you get it from? I generally keep quiet about engineers, it takes 10-15 years to train them, and in the meantime, sailors need to go out to sea for something and protect the borders of the Motherland. Tell them to wait 10-15 years and not use the Mistrals, is that not patriotic?
              1. Masterzserg
                Masterzserg April 13 2013 14: 50
                +3
                Quote: Professor
                Tell them to wait 10-15 years and not use the Mistrals, so this is not patriotic?
                - And now, do you think ships are not being built in your country?)) We are waiting and trembling when will the Mistrals be completed?)))) And the Mistral is a hoax of our villain, the former Minister of Defense. He did a lot of things. Again, rummage in Yandex to competently say something.
                Quote: Professor
                that neither Russia nor the entire BSSSR is able to provide itself with surface ships.
                - all warships have personal names, what did you buy in Russia and the USSR? Except for the Mistrals. You should know if you "dealt".
              2. Professor
                Professor April 13 2013 15: 06
                0
                and now, do you think ships are not being built in the country?

                Cat's tears, not ships. What is the total tonnage of all these ships?

                all warships have personal names, name what they bought in Russia and in the USSR? Except for the Mistrals. You should know if you "dealt".

                You have already been pointed to landing ships here. And that’s not all.
              3. Masterzserg
                Masterzserg April 13 2013 15: 48
                +1
                Quote: Professor
                What is the total tonnage of all these ships?
                - I dont know. This is some kind of stupid question. And what and how much is in the search engine.
                Quote: Professor
                pointed to landing ships.
                - landing ships Mistral? Or are you talking about Poland? Social countries are an exception, as we supported their economy, it is so possible both about Ukraine and Belarus to say that we imported from there))))), and now we import from the Sverdlovsk region))).

                Quote: Professor
                And that’s not all.
                “What's not all?” Just such a phrase is convenient?
              4. Professor
                Professor April 13 2013 16: 15
                0
                And what and how much is in the search engine.

                Now there is such a trick to call the ships a class higher (to sound cooler) despite their displacement. Type adopted by the 5 frigates, it sounds cool.

                What is not all? Just such a phrase is convenient?

                floating master, floating hotels, supply vessels, etc.
              5. Masterzserg
                Masterzserg April 13 2013 16: 55
                +1
                Quote: Professor
                Now there is such a trick to call the ships a class higher (to sound cooler) despite their displacement. Type adopted by the 5 frigates, it sounds cool.
                - They don’t practice it, then, especially on this site, such a linden will not work.


                Quote: Professor
                floating master, floating hotels, supply vessels, etc.
                - Well, Duc, again, Poland, etc.
              6. Professor
                Professor April 13 2013 19: 27
                +2
                Well so again Poland, etc.

                And that Poland was a union republic, and Walesa dreamed of becoming its first secretary? bully
    2. zvereok
      zvereok April 13 2013 21: 18
      +1
      Specifically, at the expense of the Mistral, at the beginning of this year several scandals surfaced with the participation of the French - they gave bribes and kickbacks in order to buy their equipment. The scandals were not connected with us, with Asians, but the root of zeal was to buy equipment abroad from a former mine. defense buried, I think here.
  • 11Goor11
    11Goor11 April 13 2013 17: 57
    +5
    Professor
    Take a screenshot from your computer and show us. Is there really a Russian processor? By the way, how can I say processor in Russian?

    In the USSR, the following chip names were proposed depending on the degree of integration (the number of elements for digital circuits is indicated):
    Small integrated circuit (MIS) - up to 100 elements in a crystal.
    The average integrated circuit (SIS) - up to 1000 elements in the crystal.
    Large integrated circuit (LSI) - up to 10000 elements in the crystal.
    Ultra-large integrated circuit (VLSI) - up to 1 million elements in a crystal.
    Ultra-large integrated circuit (UBIS) - up to 1 billion elements in a crystal.
    Gigabig Integrated Circuit (GBIS) - more than 1 billion elements in a crystal.
    "Professor", have you heard anything about the Elbrus integrated circuit?
    Elbrus is used in air defense systems S-300, S-400.
    Low power consumption of 10W (practically does not heat up) and high performance - 4,0 GFlops, with a clock frequency of only 300 MHz, which indicates a well-thought-out architecture.


    http://topmods.net/articles/sovremennyye_otechestvennyye_mikroprotsessory
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic April 13 2013 18: 35
      +5
      Quote: 11Goor11
      Elbrus is used in air defense systems S-300, S-400.
      Low power consumption of 10W (practically does not heat up) and high performance - 4,0 GFlops, with a clock frequency of only 300 MHz, which indicates a well-thought-out architecture.


      Now, some of this is used in the fourth generation ASBU, for this three missile divisions are mastering it. In March, work began on equipping the Central Sharing Center of the General Staff of ASBU of the fifth generation ... Tests are scheduled for the summer of 2014 by launching a Bulava rocket from the Alexander Nevsky nuclear submarine directly from the Central Sharing Center. Especially rummaged in open sources, not to say too much. Nothing foreign there is all ours,
    2. jjj
      jjj April 14 2013 00: 13
      0
      Especially when not using a binary system
  • Corsair
    Corsair April 13 2013 22: 07
    +5
    Quote: Professor
    Is there really a Russian processor?
    I HAVE chinese AMD processor, and not at all sad good Do you have a respected Professor, is it really Israeli? Tell me please WHATEtc. repeat(Image clickable)
  • Ezhaak
    Ezhaak April 13 2013 13: 40
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    I repeat, a middle ground is needed. even the USSR bought weapons abroad.

    Could you name the weapons purchased in the West. You can keep silent about helicopters assembled in Poland and Czech-made training aircraft. There is a special article.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 13: 46
      -4
      I repeat, the ships purchased abroad allowed the Soviet shipbuilding to at least somehow provide the fleet with equipment.
      1. Raven1972
        Raven1972 April 13 2013 14: 40
        0
        Let's compare the numbers of ships produced at our shipyards and purchased abroad? Something tells me that the comparison will not be in favor of the purchased ... + let's see another class of the purchased vessels for one ... hi
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 45
          0
          Let's. The theme is landing ships. 775th project, the main BDK of the Navy of the USSR and the Navy of the Russian Federation. All crafted in Poland. The 770s, too, were all riveted in Poland.
          1. Waterfall
            Waterfall April 13 2013 14: 50
            +2
            SRK pr.864 were still being built there.
          2. Masterzserg
            Masterzserg April 13 2013 17: 07
            +1
            Poland doesn’t count, it was the Soviet Republic, all important issues in Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc. were resolved in the Kremlin, and financed, and production was being established there. These countries were sovereign only formally. So de facto is not import, thus supporting the economies of those countries.
          3. Corsair
            Corsair April 13 2013 22: 21
            +2
            Quote: Uneducable
            770s also riveted everything in Poland.
            The training ship "Smolny" was built in the NRB, and now in Bulgaria, which has become a NATO member, this ship will pass through the cap. repair. For debts of the former NRB-former USSR good KNOW OUR
  • holding
    holding April 13 2013 14: 44
    -1
    professor you are an enemy
    1. zvereok
      zvereok April 13 2013 21: 24
      +2
      A very useful enemy.
    2. poligraf
      poligraf April 13 2013 21: 26
      +4
      do you mean that the comments of the named commentator are harmful?

      Seeing the number of comments, he is just a troll.
  • Homo
    Homo April 13 2013 17: 54
    0
    Your examples are not the topic, what you listed does not reduce the defense capability of Russia.
  • Rustiger
    Rustiger April 13 2013 18: 26
    +5
    Professor
    Quote: Professor
    Throw the American processor out of your computer

    Is this the case, not the humorous site of Zhvan or Khazan?
    Let 80% of computers are picked up around the globe and on the process, as on everything else, there is an inscription - anything from Asia, and there is Africa. Izrailovka also DOES NOT RELEASE and DOES NOT SELL components.
    I can give a ton of examples - once.
    Maybe we will agree: I throw out my Ipponka, change to a UAZ, and the "professors" who still have not paid for their higher education in the USSR forget "the great and mighty". Absolutely, you can by means of a lobotomy. ... ... You can start with Dina Rubin. ... ...
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 19: 37
      0
      Izrailovka also DOES NOT RELEASE and DOES NOT SELL components.

      Israel is not, but Israel is developing and producing and selling. Learn the materiel. wink

      and "professors" who still have not paid for their higher education in the USSR

      My grandfathers paid in full my higher education when they worked on collective farms for workdays in spite of their military merits.
      1. Rustiger
        Rustiger April 13 2013 22: 45
        +3
        Quote: Professor
        Israel both designs and manufactures and markets.

        Ha! Development can take place in a "checkered notebook" for this you do not need production capacity, but it may not even reach the sale.
        I’m browsing dozens of suppliers ’sites, if necessary, specifically on comp. complete set. What I have not seen, even New Zealand and Mozambique. In the photo above, percent is Ay7 3820, socket 2011, 3.6 GHz, costing 10 rubles., Not the most expensive, but available for modern. house. computer. I set myself this before the new year. There, with an increase, it reads the manufacturer - Costa Rica.
        Is Israel Selling? To whom? Muricosia? And they are Israel. And together they are Iran, North Korea and the Martians. . . or China.

        Quote: Professor
        worked on collective farms for workdays

        Were they kibbutz for growing plastic cucumbers near Nazareth Ilit?

        I suggest changing your nickname to "Proцessor ".
        And what about the "Palestinian Processor"! Gorgeous !!! For the fee from the idea, I ask you to buy a Merkava-IV and give it to Assad. ... ...
        1. Professor
          Professor April 14 2013 09: 45
          -3
          Quote: Rustiger
          Development can also take place in a "checkered notebook" for this you do not need production capacity, but it may not even reach the sale.

          You are an amateur. Take an interest in what the largest Intel Research Center in Haifa is doing outside the USA, which is produced on fabs (what is a fab do you even know? wink ) Intel in Kiryat Gate, what Tower Semiconductor, KLA Tenkor and others are doing.

          Is Israel Selling? To whom?

          To everyone. And so that people like you do not write boiling water on the chips they write Made in China / USA / EU.

          Were they kibbutz for growing plastic cucumbers near Nazareth Ilit?

          1. Learn geography, there are no kibbutzim under Nazareth Ilit. fool
          2. Large quantities of plastic cucumbers are also delivered to your table (unless you are able to afford fresh cucumbers in winter, of course).
          3. In your opinion, I am an Israeli in the third generation. fool
  • SuperVodka777
    SuperVodka777 April 13 2013 19: 10
    0
    American processor? Find me in the market a processor not made in China! Why is Lada Fiat? Most of it is developed in Russia and is immediately produced. By the way, in general, it is necessary to separate the purchase abroad and joint development with subsequent production in your country.
    1. Nu daaaa ...
      Nu daaaa ... April 14 2013 03: 14
      -4
      Quote: SuperVodka777
      Why is Lada Fiat?


      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_124
      1. Denis
        Denis April 14 2013 03: 26
        +2
        Before launching the Fiat 124 series in the USSR, it underwent comprehensive tests at the US, according to which the Italian side made more than 800 changes to the car design, among the most serious of them: replacing the lower engine with the top engine, completely redesigned rear suspension design while maintaining its principle spring -the lever scheme, replacing the rear disc brakes with drum brakes, increasing the clearance by 30 mm (up to 170 mm), increasing the thickness of the critical elements of the supporting body, including spars, introducing the ratchet to the engine design to start the engine with a drive handle, adding a towing eye, reinforced heater, four jacking points instead of two, etc.
        Quote: Nu daaaa ...
        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_124
        It is necessary to lie in moderation
        information from there
        and then cunning, aerobatics, it’s true! and garbage that not all
  • Simon
    Simon April 13 2013 23: 29
    -2
    You, the PROFESSOR of acidic cabbage soup, and who is to blame for this, one ruler developed pluralism of opinions, put the military-industrial complex on a hungry rations, another half destroyed it, and the third now collects bit by bit what you have lost.
  • Setrac
    Setrac April 14 2013 22: 08
    0
    Quote: Professor
    atriot ", start with yourself. Throw the American processor out of your computer - maybe there are bookmarks.

    Why is this processor developed by a Russian scientist suddenly become American?
    1. Professor
      Professor April 15 2013 07: 36
      0
      Why is this processor developed by a Russian scientist suddenly become American?

      Enlighten how was the Russian scientist developed intel CORE? wink
      1. Setrac
        Setrac April 15 2013 14: 11
        0
        Quote: Professor
        Enlighten how was the Russian scientist developed intel CORE?

        There is such a professor Pentkovsky who created the penium processor, and your Intel CORE multi-core version of the penium, the professor returned to Russia and the progress of American processors stopped.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 15 2013 15: 47
          0
          You look at the size of the Intel Research Center. What do you think, how many people work only here? and how many doctors of science are among them? Is the hint clear? wink

          Since 1993, he worked at Intel. One of the authors and architects of the vector (SIMD) extension of the SSE [1] instructions, which first appeared in Pentium-III microprocessors. Pentkovsky participated in the development of several generations of Intel processors.
  • shpuntik
    shpuntik April 15 2013 02: 47
    +2
    We built a just society, a paradise on earth-communism. What nation is capable of this? See how the US gold reserves increased during World War II. Their rat policy immediately becomes clear. And on Lendliz, we paid only in the nineties. Now wait: China will pounce on us ...
  • Dejavu
    Dejavu April 15 2013 05: 05
    0
    Patriot does not have the right to use the achievements of other countries? This is not patriotism, but idiocy. As for the army, that is, the nuances that many are unaware of. What operating systems do computers in intelligence boards work on? - Exactly, not on ours or even Linux, but on Windows. So I’m more likely not for purchasing abroad, but for full self-sufficiency, which so far is obviously not entirely possible how much we would not like it. Engage our brains to write army programs and one problem is solved. And what about iron, chips, processors, etc. I honestly have no idea. Thanks to Khrushchev, who recognized cybernetics as unpromising / facepalm.
  • Denis
    Denis April 15 2013 10: 54
    0
    Quote: Professor
    "patriot", start with yourself. Throw the American processor out of your computer - maybe there are bookmarks. Change to Lada (no, you can't, it's Fiat) or to Zaporozhets (the same - Ukrainian)
    IZh will not remember something, but it’s like a sickle ..., he won the rally
    A TVs (Zvorykin) also throw?
    Lie in moderation, otherwise the brachometer rolls over
    1. Professor
      Professor April 15 2013 11: 02
      0
      Lie in moderation, otherwise the brachometer rolls over

      Learn to carefully read and learn materiel, and also show us what TVs are made in the USA! fool
  • Denis
    Denis April 15 2013 10: 59
    0
    Quote: Professor
    Transfer to Lada (no, you can’t, it's Fiat)
    Specifically for the false-loyal disciples of Trotsky:The choice fell on this particular brand and model for several reasons. One of them was related to politics (in those years, the Soviet Union sought to help the Italian Communist Party). But other reasons were more compelling: the Fiat 124 was quite conservative constructively, but at the same time quite modern for the mid-sixties; It was called in Europe "Car 1966" [1] and soon became quite popular in his homeland and in the rest of Europe; had a classic layout, simple and familiar to Soviet motorists; It was relatively spacious inside, fairly inexpensive and technologically advanced in production.
    Before launching the Fiat 124 series in the USSR, it underwent comprehensive tests at the US, according to which the Italian side made more than 800 changes to the car design, among the most serious of them: replacing the lower engine with the top engine, completely redesigned rear suspension design while maintaining its principle spring -the lever scheme, replacing the rear disc brakes with drum brakes, increasing the clearance by 30 mm (up to 170 mm), increasing the thickness of the critical elements of the supporting body, including spars, introducing the ratchet to the engine design to start the engine with a drive handle, adding a towing eye, reinforced heater, four jacking points instead of two, etc.

    Isn't that enough?
    1. Professor
      Professor April 15 2013 11: 10
      0
      Isn't that enough?

      Few or many questions are relative. Won China insists that J11, J16, J17, as well as J15 are Chinese projects that just by chance bear some resemblance to Russian fighters.

      in those years, the Soviet Union sought to help the Italian Communist Party

      We will help the US Communist Party and buy from them 5 aircraft carriers. wassat
  • Mohomax
    Mohomax 24 May 2013 11: 30
    0
    The author of the article correctly said that Russia needs technology, nothing more. It seems to me that Russia will be misunderstood if we buy, for example, Merkava. We have a huge resource reserve, a huge brain bank. All this just needs to be directed in the same direction, and not be disgraced by buying "modern" military equipment. If you have noticed that there is such a concept "morally obsolete", but even now, after half a century, you will be intimidated by the old man T-54 or T 62 and Soviet scientists did not ask how to build them. With such judgments as yours, you can ask foreign countries how to go to the pot.
  • svp67
    svp67 April 13 2013 12: 35
    +1
    Quote: Kohl
    The fifth column for the purchase of arms abroad!



    Wake up, without such purchases, we would not have what we have now. Or do you think that BT2, T26, P1, Tu4 is fully developed by "our" designers?
    1. Masterzserg
      Masterzserg April 13 2013 14: 12
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      Wake up, without such purchases, we would not have what we have now. Or do you think that BT2, T26, P1, Tu4 is fully developed by "our" designers?
      - is it you wake up and read what they write, dug up information on the internet and let's "shine" with the mind?))) It's one thing to buy, and then produce, and another - it's stupid to buy - these are two different things! Wake up! laughing
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 13 2013 16: 58
        -1
        Quote: Masterzserg
        is it you wake up and read what they write, dug up information in the internet and let's "shine" with the mind?))) It's one thing to buy, and then produce, and another - it's stupid to buy - these are two different things! Wake up!


        So formulate your thoughts specifically ...
    2. Raven1972
      Raven1972 April 13 2013 14: 12
      +2
      Would you still Newpore, Farman and Fokker remember ... But nothing that in the RI aircraft industry as such was not in principle? Like the tank building ... Yes, the samples were purchased, but in the same BT-5 from Christie there was practically nothing, finalized and developed by ourselves, and the clean Christy BT-2 was removed from service, it turned out to be very unreliable .... By the way, and you will not prompt who invented a parachute? As it is now? With needle locks and an opener?
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 13 2013 17: 01
        0
        Quote: Raven1972
        Yes, the samples were purchased, but in the same BT-5 from Christie there was practically nothing, we finalized and developed ourselves, and the pure Christie BT-2 was removed from service, it turned out to be very unreliable ....



        We must at least know the materiel for such a high-profile statement. Are you aware that the T-34 had a running gear, a la Christie?
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 April 13 2013 19: 05
          +1
          Actually, I know her and no worse than you)))) The T-34 was completely developed in the USSR, from Christie’s suspension there were only general principles of work, and the design itself was developed from and to by our designers ... The difference is even in the fact that Christie’s tanks are tracked, and the T-34 is tracked, so the suspension there is completely different ... hi
          1. svp67
            svp67 April 13 2013 20: 11
            +2
            Quote: Raven1972
            The difference is that Christie’s tanks are wheeled and tracked, and the T-34 is tracked, so the suspension there is completely different ...


            Well, enlighten, what is the T34 suspension radically different from the BT suspension? And on what machines was it still used?
            1. Raven1972
              Raven1972 April 13 2013 21: 29
              +1
              At least by the fact that there was no heap of transmissions transmitting torque to the rollers))) Accordingly, a useful place was freed up inside the case - once, there was an opportunity to increase the reservation due to the release of the useful mass - two ..
              In addition to BT and T-34, the candle suspension was used on the Aglitsa "Cromwell"
              1. svp67
                svp67 April 13 2013 21: 55
                0
                Quote: Raven1972
                In addition to BT and T-34, the candle suspension was used on the Aglitsa "Cromwell"


                And unlike you, the Angles do not hesitate to admit that they used a Christie-type suspension on the tank
                "the road wheels of the chassis were supposed to have independent suspension of the Christie type"

                And the transmission of the T-34 differed from the BT in the absence of a "guitar", a gear drive to the drive wheels of a "wheel drive". How, in principle, our BT differed from the Christie tank, which used a "chain drive" for this

                But all this as they say particular. So answer, if it weren’t BT, would the T-34 appear in the 1939 year?
                1. Raven1972
                  Raven1972 April 13 2013 22: 07
                  +1
                  So I'm not shy))))))) I wrote to you how it differed on the T-34 from BT and Christie, was I really wrong? It's just that you kind of blame that they couldn’t type something yourself))) And by the way, Christie in America never received recognition - isn't it funny?
                  And if you take it in a big way - then everything once somewhere somewhere by someone was already invented ... hi
                2. Raven1972
                  Raven1972 April 13 2013 22: 10
                  +1
                  I’ll answer - yes, I would have appeared ... Maybe it’s not with a Christie-type suspension, but it appeared ..... In addition to BT, there were tanks too ... The same HF - he didn’t smell close to any Christy, and there was on the T-34, a torsion bar suspension and not a candle ... And the body, engine, tower - it was all their own, dear ...
                3. svp67
                  svp67 April 13 2013 22: 40
                  0
                  Well, apparently, you know our history of tank building, and you know that it DIDN'T work for the USSR to create its own tank on its own. There was a lack of engineers and experience and had to buy "ready-made solutions" abroad to speed up this process.
                  And the T34 suspension was no different from the BT suspension.
                4. Raven1972
                  Raven1972 April 13 2013 23: 28
                  0
                  Og, did you create the HF on your own? What about the T-28? Everything turned out when I wanted to ... Do not forget - RI did not have tank building at all, it was necessary to create from scratch, and competent engineers had to be trained and designers ... And then, what did you get this suspension? The case, however, didn’t come up with the filling, but Christy would have put the torsion bars and didn’t bathe ....
                  It’s always the hardest to start, actually .... Especially from scratch, so I don’t see anything bad in copying ...
                  hi The most important thing is that they were produced by us and not in Nagliya and not in America
                5. Nu daaaa ...
                  Nu daaaa ... April 14 2013 03: 21
                  +1
                  T-26 ...

                  "... Great Britain, the Soviet procurement commission headed by S. Ginzburg, whose task was to acquire the most modern armored vehicles and send them to the USSR for study and use in organizing their own armored production. One of the tanks that especially interested the commission was the latest At that time, the Vickers A6 medium tank, better known as the 16-ton Vickers. However, the Vickers company refused to sell the finished tank model due to its secrecy and put forward the following conditions for the Soviet side to acquire the vehicle ...

                  ... Such conditions were considered unacceptable by the Soviet delegation, and it was decided to abandon the acquisition of the A6 and instead create a tank of this class on its own using the experience gained from studying the A6 sample in the UK ... "
                6. svp67
                  svp67 April 14 2013 06: 26
                  0
                  Quote: Raven1972
                  Og, did you create the HF on your own? What about the T-28? Everything turned out when I wanted to ... Do not forget - RI did not have tank building at all, it was necessary to create from scratch, and competent engineers had to be trained and designers ... And then, what did you get this suspension? The case, however, didn’t come up with the filling, but Christy would have put the torsion bars and didn’t bathe ....
                  It’s always the hardest to start, actually .... Especially from scratch, so I don’t see anything bad in copying ...
                  The most important thing is that they were produced by us and not in Nagliya and not in America

                  I totally agree.
                  Splicing - what is the suspension for? It's just that the T34 did not appear out of nowhere, it was the development of those technical ideas and solutions that our military and "tankoprom" specialists "saw" in the Christie's tank.
                  KV also appeared not from scratch, not to mention the T28
                  "The history of the T-28 began in 1930 with a visit to Great Britain by the Soviet procurement commission headed by S. Ginzburg, whose task was to acquire the most modern armored vehicles and send them to the USSR for study and use in organizing their own armored production. , which especially interested the commission, was the newest medium tank A6 of the Vickers company at that time, better known as the Vickers 16-ton. : [L 3]
                  A one-time payment of 20 000 pounds (about 200 000 rubles in gold) for acquaintance with the design and development of tanks of this type.
                  Ordering Vickers 10 tanks of this type at a price of 16 thousand pounds (160 thousand rubles in gold) for a tank without armament.
                  Further order from Carden-Lloyd Mk VI tankette company and Vickers Mk E. light tanks.
                  Such conditions were considered unacceptable by the Soviet delegation, and it was decided to abandon the acquisition of the A6 and instead create a tank of this class on its own using the experience gained during the study of the A6 sample in the UK "
              2. Raven1972
                Raven1972 April 13 2013 23: 39
                0
                Sorry, we are talking about the same thing))) I re-read the comment - they wrote the same thing practically))))) laughing hi
              3. skeptic
                skeptic April 14 2013 00: 04
                0
                Quote: svp67
                There was a lack of engineers and experience and had to buy "ready-made solutions" abroad to speed up this process.


                Well, naturally. Our designers were dark and illiterate. Apparently because of this, the t-34 was ripped off from the German Panther, as from the sample of the Great Western Design Thought. Even outwardly they did not hesitate to give almost the same appearance.
              4. Aleksys2
                Aleksys2 April 14 2013 02: 34
                0
                Quote: skeptic
                Apparently because of this, the t-34 was ripped off from the German Panther,

                T-34 tore off the Panther?
              5. Denis
                Denis April 14 2013 02: 50
                0
                Quote: Aleksys2
                T-34 tore off the Panther?
                Just sarcasm
                no matches - class, years, caliber, engine, etc. etc.
              6. skeptic
                skeptic April 14 2013 16: 43
                +1
                Quote: Denis
                Quote: Aleksys2
                T-34 tore off the Panther?
                Just sarcasm
                no matches - class, years, caliber, engine, etc. etc.


                After the t-34 created big problems for the Germans, Hitler ordered his designers to make a more powerful alternative, but which absorbed all the main advantages of the thirty-four. Which in itself speaks of a serious, Soviet, tank school. As a model, a Soviet tank was chosen, and not Sherman and similar tanks of all tank schools of the West. What does it have to do with what kind of system was used in the suspension, wheels (maybe we will also start picking, who first invented it), the main main product is complex, but here the facts speak for themselves.
          2. svp67
            svp67 April 14 2013 08: 37
            0
            No our constructors were inexperienced. They simply lacked experience in creating such complex combat vehicles as tanks. So they adopted foreign experience. And there is nothing shameful about it. At all times, the designer of military equipment "did not hesitate" to use something new "seen" in enemy equipment
  • Denis
    Denis April 14 2013 03: 33
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    T-34 was the chassis, a la Christie?
    More caterpillars and la-la-tank tower
    Planes are all a la Wright, it turns out they have wings!
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 14 2013 16: 51
      0
      Quote: Denis
      More caterpillars and la-la-tank tower


      Well, if so, then the caterpillar is a la Holt, and the tower is a la Renault
  • Oleg Rosskiyy
    Oleg Rosskiyy April 13 2013 23: 43
    +1
    The fifth column is generally against any purchase of weapons, from anyone else, their whole life is a myth imposed on all of us about the "well-wishers" surrounding Russia, who sleep and see our country as "developed" and "democratic", while they themselves ( Western "well-wishers") do not forget to intensively and rapidly arm themselves and join the ranks of the military blocs. We have been strenuously imposed and are imposing the opinion that the defense industry is destroying the country's economy, but now it is becoming clear that everything is exactly the opposite.
  • Denis
    Denis April 13 2013 09: 15
    +5
    Quote: Professor
    Even the United States purchases some weapons abroad.
    Is this a benchmark?
    Remind me what was imported in CA?
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 13 2013 20: 55
      0
      Quote: Denis
      Remind me what was imported in CA?


      Light training aircraft L-29 "Dolphin", L-39 "Albatross", wheeled ACS "Dana"
      1. Denis
        Denis April 14 2013 02: 27
        0
        Quote: svp67
        wheeled self-propelled guns "Dana"
        An important technique, even a little bit and won
        But broke off ...
        But how would you like to say the language of the poster, whose flags are visible?
      2. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 April 14 2013 02: 36
        0
        Quote: svp67
        wheeled self-propelled guns "Dana"

        152-mm self-propelled howitzer gun vz.77 "Dana" (Samohybná Kanónová Húfnica vzor 77) - Czech-made self-propelled artillery mount.
        Self-propelled guns in single copies were delivered to the USSR, where they were tested at the Rzhev training ground near Leningrad to study the possibility of adopting them, but were never put into service.
        1. Denis
          Denis April 14 2013 02: 56
          0
          Quote: Aleksys2
          but was never adopted
          But it fit
          To whom to carry flags, and to whom for as though struggle for allegedly the truth
        2. svp67
          svp67 April 14 2013 06: 36
          0
          Quote: Aleksys2
          Self-propelled guns in single copies were delivered to the USSR, where they were tested at the Rzhev training ground near Leningrad to study the possibility of adopting them, but were never put into service.

          WIKIPEDIA is not always right.
          The ZTS-77 Dana self-propelled howitzer was developed in the late 70s in Czechoslovakia. The self-propelled gun is the only large-caliber weapon DEVELOPED NOT IN THE USSR AND ADOPTED FOR ARMATION
          SOVIET ARMY after the end of World War II (delivered by 167 self-propelled guns).
          Despite the objections and doubts of most of our artillerymen, the USSR Council of Ministers issued on October 25, 1986, the decree “On the purchase in Czechoslovakia in 1987 - 1989 of 152mm of Dana’s self-propelled howitzer guns

          It was in service with the 211 ArtBr TsGV http://topwar.ru/2227-samoxodki-na-kolyosax.html
          1. Aleksys2
            Aleksys2 April 14 2013 16: 10
            0
            Quote: svp67
            It was in service with the 211 ArtBr TsGV http://topwar.ru/2227-samoxodki-na-kolyosax.html

            Quote completely:
            In general, it was obvious that adopting another artillery system, which had no obvious advantages over the domestic one, does not make sense. Such an opinion was finally confirmed in the Main Rocket-Artillery Directorate and the 3m Central Research Institute of the USSR Ministry of Defense - organizations that were entrusted with working out the issue of the expediency of purchasing “Dana”. Nevertheless, in the 1979, at the Rzhev artillery range, two Dana samples were tested, which, as expected, showed no advantage over the domestic counterpart. In 1983, a letter was sent to the General Staff from the USSR Academy of State Administration about the inexpediency of supplying the Dana ACS to the Soviet Union. However, in the same year, the command nevertheless decided to take some of the Czechoslovak self-propelled guns into experimental military service in the USSR. To do this, Czechoslovakia bought six (according to other sources, 18 - one division) self-propelled guns. They were operated in the USSR for about a year, after which they were returned to Czechoslovakia. In 1985, Minister of Defense of the USSR S.L. Sokolov was sent a report on the results of trial operation "Dana". Despite the objections and doubts of most of our gunners, the USSR Council of Ministers issued the 25 of October 1986 of the year “On procurement in Czechoslovakia in 1987 - 1989 152mm Dana self-propelled howitzers. Perhaps this order the Soviet leadership wanted to support the Allied manufacturer.
            1. svp67
              svp67 April 14 2013 16: 23
              0
              Well, the fact of the acquisition is evident?
              Moreover
              Perhaps the Soviet leadership wanted to support the union producer with this order.
              this is fortune-telling on "coffee grounds". I believe that:
              - our management wanted to get complete data on the operation of wheeled self-propelled guns, since apparently the experimental test of the division still did not give the desired results
    2. svp67
      svp67 April 13 2013 21: 38
      0
      For example czech bridges MT-55
      1. Denis
        Denis April 14 2013 00: 26
        0
        Quote: svp67
        Light training aircraft L-29 "Dolphin", L-39 "Albatross", wheeled ACS "Dana"

        Quote: svp67
        For example czech bridges MT-55

        No words. Only thanks to such an important technique and kept?
        The Czechs and the Wehrmacht fired a lot of weapons, moreover, combat weapons, and here are training and combat engineers. A kind of conversion?
      2. Aleksys2
        Aleksys2 April 14 2013 02: 38
        0
        Quote: svp67
        For example czech bridges MT-55

        Developed to replace the MTU-20 tank bridge spreader. It is a joint development of the USSR, Czechoslovakia and the German Democratic Republic for the unification and use by countries of the Warsaw Pact.
        Serially on the territory of the USSR, the MTU-55 tank bridge-axle was produced since 1962 at the Uralvagonzavod
  • Suhov
    Suhov April 13 2013 09: 35
    +6
    Quote: Professor
    It is necessary to find a middle ground.

    For the army, purchasing is the best. And no matter where. Abroad or from their manufacturers.
    Over the hill, first of all, to buy (if sold) knowledge, technology, factories, etc.
    It is possible and necessary to buy abroad a batch of modern equipment and weapons if we ourselves cannot do it.
    And of course, striving to ensure that everything can be done by ourselves, strives for self-sufficiency ...
  • Army1
    Army1 April 13 2013 11: 22
    0
    Well, if the seshea were bought from their NATO friends, this is one thing, but Russia should not be involved here, for us this is, in addition to self-humiliation, also the risk of "getting" in the future.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 23
      10 th
      Need, Need. In NATO we need.
      1. Suhov
        Suhov April 13 2013 12: 59
        +4
        Quote: Uneducable
        Need, Need. In NATO we need

        NATO! NATO! IT us NATO?
        laughing
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 31
          10 th
          Of course it is. NATO is a large and friendly family of white people. It is better to be friends with white than with Nigro on the palm as loved scoops.
          1. maxon106
            maxon106 April 13 2013 15: 28
            +3
            Now the Ukrainians will enter, and everything will fall apart
            1. Ineducable
              Ineducable April 13 2013 15: 29
              -5
              brothers Ukrainians

              They are not brothers to me.
          2. smile
            smile April 13 2013 15: 54
            +4
            Ineducable
            Well, if by a close-knit family you mean all kinds of friendships cultivated now in Europe ... tada, kaneshno, daaaaa ... but remember - you will be taken there only for an inactive role ... and they will darken slowly ... and How do you imagine the state in one military bloc together with the absolutely Russophobic-minded countries of Eastern Europe, such as Poland, and even with the dominant role of the United States? No, I understand, of course, that you were joking — a person cannot blur such things seriously, being in his own mind ... but it doesn’t matter ... are you a racist? Do you not know that in your beloved Nate, racism is not encouraged? Of course, they came to this much later than the Soviet people ... well, okay, the main thing is that they did come, you know, they usually have democratic changes later than we do ... it’s strange that you didn’t come up with there’s some kind of swearing ... oh yes, I forgot that everything is perfect there for you .. okay, pray further, maybe at least learn something good from them ....
          3. Masterzserg
            Masterzserg April 13 2013 17: 20
            +3
            Quote: Uneducable
            friendly family of white people.
            - no one is friends there, just if we say Turkey will not lick the United States, it will turn into Syria, Emigrants burned France and she had to return to NATO, etc. They are not friends, they are vassals of the United States who themselves decide something after consultations with Washington or at the behest of him. If suddenly the empire of evil collapses, all these countries, "friendly", will surround the United States, like us Poland, Lithuania and other litter.
      2. Denis
        Denis April 14 2013 00: 19
        0
        Quote: Uneducable
        Need, Need. In NATO we need.
        It’s not interesting to send you even
        Don’t try to complain! Of course, send to nature
  • Army1
    Army1 April 13 2013 11: 23
    +4
    Well, if the seshea were bought from their NATO friends, this is one thing, but Russia should not be involved here, for us this is, in addition to self-humiliation, also the risk of "getting" in the future.
  • Masterzserg
    Masterzserg April 13 2013 12: 08
    +2
    Quote: Professor
    It is necessary to find a middle ground. To date, not a single army possesses 100% of domestic weapons. Even the United States purchases some weapons abroad.
    - What we sell, we have, is the same or better and you need to maintain your own manufacturer - this is not understandable only to a fool. And Western super developments and the latest weapons that are superior to ours or there are no analogues in our industry at all, no one will sell - this is also clear as day. So there can be no middle ground.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 13: 10
      +1
      What we will be sold to, we have, is the same or better and you need to maintain your own manufacturer - this is not clear only to a fool.

      Even if you drive the whole country back into communal apartments, Russia will not be able to provide itself with domestic weapons at 100%, but for now, Russian soldiers will die in communal apartments.
      1. Masterzserg
        Masterzserg April 13 2013 13: 41
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        Even if you drive the whole country back into communal apartments, Russia will not be able to provide itself with domestic weapons at 100%, but for now, Russian soldiers will die in communal apartments.
        - Even some kind of nonsense, some communal apartments ... Where does such confidence come from?
        Quote: Professor
        will not be able to provide herself 100%
        Why can't there? Or do you just Russophobia inflamed and as a balm you need to prove your point of view? We ourselves all made in the USSR, another thing may not be in our territory, but in socialist countries, etc. .. Or do you think we delivered nuclear bombs with missiles, planes, submarines, electronic circuits during the Cold War? What kind of nonsense have you made? 100%, 100%, stop talking nonsense.) What did we buy from them? It may now have to buy some parts, because the old drunk with your compatriots ruined everything to hell! And then in the USSR they built so much and so well that after 20 years of deliberate collapse, something else remains and is being produced. Nefig to feed them, to produce them ourselves, and what we don’t know how to spy on and, again, to produce at home. It will be right. That was right!
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 13: 58
          -1
          Why such confidence?

          From the history of the USSR and extensive experience in the West. You will pay the hard worker and the engineer as much as the damned bourgeois pay and the title of Hero of Labor will not be necessary to enter, only the gold technique will become. Another option sharazhkiny office and communal. This we have already passed.

          Or do you just Russophobia inflamed and as a balm you need to prove your point of view?

          What is Russophobia? I honestly served in the Soviet army and I have a clue about what I'm talking about.

          What kind of nonsense have you made? 100%, 100%, stop talking nonsense.) What did we buy from them?

          You spread the whole list? I can start with the Navy, the nomenclature is just off scale. And most importantly, who will produce in the BSSSR. You go find a normal turner or welder.

          Nefig to feed them, to produce for ourselves, and what we don’t know how to spy on, and again to produce at home.

          I am currently working in the semiconductor industry. You can spy at least 24 / 7, not those times and the wrong technologies to establish such a production at home.
          1. Masterzserg
            Masterzserg April 13 2013 14: 05
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            You spread the whole list? I can start with the Navy, the nomenclature is just off scale.


            - Come on! Enlighten!

            Quote: Professor
            And most importantly, who will produce in the BSSSR. You go find a normal turner or welder.
            - yes, that's right, I remember from the history of the USSR to the country the American president personally sent his best turners and welders to launch Gagarin into space, 80 percent of Americans just after Harvard came to build plants for us, the remaining 20% ​​are French and British, the whole world built over the power)))) ... Another rubbish.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 14: 21
              +4
              A couple of years have passed since the launch of Gagarin. Since then, vocational schools no longer exist and the competition is not the same at the Polytechnic. More and more young people are studying (attending university, and even then not all) at economists, lawyers, and other ... hundred. Will they raise the military-industrial complex?

              PS
              Another nonsense.

              Don’t take it to heart, this is just a forum, not a government meeting.
              1. Masterzserg
                Masterzserg April 13 2013 14: 32
                -1
                Quote: Professor
                A couple of years have passed since the launch of Gagarin.

                - a little more. And if you are talking about now, then George W. Bush personally builds Yars and Topol-m at the factories, he also has a nuclear case, if Obama presses a button on his own, George will also send our missiles to our homeland, who do we have? All economists ...
                Quote: Professor
                Will they raise the military-industrial complex?
                - there are young specialists, they are not enough, but there are.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 13 2013 14: 44
                  +3
                  I don’t know in what area you earn your living, but my classmate builds and repairs steamers. While mooring at the port, a Dutch dry cargo ship was damaged. They turned to them for help "for any money" and they found welders with great difficulty. It turned out that young people do not want to get dirty and train as welders, and specialists have long been working in the Baltics and Norway. I personally had to look for turners capable of withstanding the 5 micron tolerance. It is easier to find oil in London than such turners. You can still find CNC machine operators, but smart turners ...
                  And you will "adjust", "build" for me ... There are still specialists for the production of one Poplar per year, but no more.
                  1. sashka
                    sashka April 13 2013 14: 59
                    -1
                    "Professor" Your STABILITY commands respect .. While it is not yet clear why. Maybe on the Russian site (not sure) the letter "e" is given as an error))) +++ only plus To be honest, I did not respect you before. although it is also not clear why? Maybe you didn't like the flag of the State or a nickname or something? Don't be offended. It is strange that the site is in Germany. And they shout about patriotism in Russia. Strange
                  2. Ezhaak
                    Ezhaak April 13 2013 15: 03
                    +2
                    Quote: Professor
                    they found welders with great difficulty

                    It's all about the tolerance system for welders working with ship hulls. There is no permission to carry out such work, welding can not be carried out.
                    Quote: Professor
                    turners able to withstand a tolerance of 5 microns

                    How long have you been looking for turners if this unit was canceled in 1967?
                    And with such accuracy, parts should no longer be turned in mass production!
                  3. Professor
                    Professor April 13 2013 15: 10
                    +1
                    Searched for 2 years ago. I really didn’t know that a micron (micron, micrometer) was canceled. Tell me, does the bearing know about this? wink

                    And with such accuracy, parts should no longer be turned in mass production!

                    But I didn’t need it en masse. This is a pilot production at a research center, there they make piece goods at the cost of tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
                  4. Ezhaak
                    Ezhaak April 13 2013 15: 37
                    +1
                    (
                    Quote: Professor
                    I really didn’t know that micron (

                    Strange as it may seem, it is. http://slovari.yandex.ru/micron/BSE/Micron/ In those days, I already started to work, and it was for the lathe. smile
                    If you are talking about bearings, specify their type. Rolling, sliding, etc. :) I know this! And not only that. For it also happened to work hard at the piece production of mock-experimental and experimental. wassat
                  5. Professor
                    Professor April 13 2013 16: 18
                    -1
                    Pleased with your link. In the West, they did not hear about the decision from 1967 and they use the full-size micron designation. However, this does not change the essence.
                  6. Ezhaak
                    Ezhaak April 13 2013 18: 30
                    +1
                    Quote: Professor
                    In the West, they did not hear about the decision of 1967

                    In the West, to put it mildly, they still have no idea about the metric system.
                    Especially in the production of trucks. Still pretend to be inches.
                  7. Professor
                    Professor April 13 2013 19: 39
                    0
                    In the West, to put it mildly, they still have no idea about the metric system.

                    Now I will send my colleagues to Germany, let them laugh. laughing
                  8. Ezhaak
                    Ezhaak April 13 2013 19: 49
                    0
                    Quote: Professor
                    Now I will send to my colleagues in Germany

                    Well, not as primitive. If you are a specialist, you understand me perfectly. You also understood which countries I’m talking about. If you do not understand, then which of you is an expert with several candidates? Only the layman does not know about this.
                    Yes, and I do not laugh at you about your sitting at the computer on Saturday.
                  9. Professor
                    Professor April 13 2013 20: 30
                    0
                    Only the layman does not know about this.

                    I know I know. Even in Russia, the links of the chains and then according to the leech system are still there.

                    Yes, and I do not laugh at you about your sitting at the computer on Saturday.

                    On Saturdays, the front need to stand? wink
                  10. Ezhaak
                    Ezhaak April 13 2013 20: 37
                    0
                    Well, except chains. And what you should do on Saturdays, you should know better than me. laughing
  • rereture
    rereture April 14 2013 13: 45
    0
    Quote: Professor
    It turned out that young people do not want to get dirty and study for welders

    So it was a couple of years ago, my friend after graduating from 11th grade went to a vocational school for a welder, arguing that the technical university will not pull, and the economist, the lawyer gets 3 times less than a professional welder.
    But if you take it as a whole, then yes the majority does not want to get dirty.
  • Ezhaak
    Ezhaak April 13 2013 14: 36
    +6
    Quote: Professor
    not those times and the wrong technologies to establish such a production at home.

    And Israeli microcircuitry is not based on Israeli technology. The Intel plant was built for you, the technology was transferred to you, maybe they sold it, they stole something from their friends.
    You better tell us why Western experts estimate your "iron dome" at only 5%. But the Israelis rate it at all 95%. Who's lying?
    Speak Merkava super car? I will not argue. She is well protected, but armed ... God forbid us such.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 39
      0
      The iron dome? If for Jews it is not bad, because it knocks down all homemade Palestinian shit, then for Europe it is an inefficient piece of good, because it will not save hails from spam.
    2. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 14: 54
      +1
      The Intel plant was built for you, the technology was transferred to you, maybe they sold it, they stole something from their friends.

      Besides Intel, do you know anything else? By the way, the Intel research center is located in Israel, not just the fabs. Do you know KLA-Tenkor Tower Semiconductor? Only yesterday it became known about the sale of an Israeli company for $ 400 million in cash, and you "bought", "stolen".
      Avago acquires Israeli company CyOptics for $ 400 million

      You better tell us why Western experts estimate your "iron dome" at only 5%. But the Israelis rate it at all 95%. Who's lying?

      Believe common sense. hi

      God forbid us this.

      Which one? What would the ATGM to tear off the barrel, and the tanker a whole and not harmful posed in front of cameras? Do you prefer the opposite (rhetorical question)? belay
      1. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak April 13 2013 15: 40
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        Which one? What would the ATGM to tear off the barrel,

        Or maybe not anti-tank systems. Neither you nor I have seen this moment !!! crying
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 16: 19
          0
          Quote: Hedgehog
          Quote: Professor
          Which one? What would the ATGM to tear off the barrel,

          Or maybe not anti-tank systems. Neither you nor I have seen this moment !!! crying


          In this case, I tend to trust the official version. While lying, they have not been caught.
  • old rocket man
    old rocket man April 13 2013 12: 55
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    Even the US purchases some weapons abroad


    Now, just do not, professor,not weapons, but weapons, and this is a big difference
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 13: 11
      -3
      Well, it’s just not necessary, professor, not armaments, but armament samples, and this is a big difference

      "You must Fedya, you must." The grenade launcher Carl Gustav, Harier is just a shot.
      1. old rocket man
        old rocket man April 13 2013 13: 51
        +4
        [quote = professor] [quote] Now, just do not, professor, not weapons, but weapons models, and this is a big difference [/ quote]
        "You must Fedya, you must." Carl Gustav grenade launcher, Harier, that's just a shot. [/ Quote

        My name is Abrash, my name is not Fedya, but Igor, rudeness does not adorn even the Jews, but you indicated "samples"have been in trial operation and are not safely used as standard weapons.
        With sincere anti-Semitic greetings, old racketeer laughing
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 14: 14
          +2
          My name is Abrash, my name is not Fedya, but Igor, rudeness does not adorn even the Jews, but you indicated

          I apologize if I offended the catch phrase from the popular comedy. Nevertheless, the examples I have cited are in service and are actively used as standard weapons. Do you provide links?
  • Ghenxnumx
    Ghenxnumx April 13 2013 13: 32
    +2
    Quote: Ghen75
    Even the United States purchases some weapons abroad.

    The United States, where the ideal is the ability to print money on toilet paper, can be an example for Israel, but do not impose it on us as such. It makes sense to buy only when one's own industry is unable to cope, and to buy at a time when one's own defense industry, and one of the best, asks to give work - this is different than betrayal cannot be called.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 34
      -8
      Quote: Ghen75
      one of the best

      The best among whom? You and your andropov partners?
  • Vashestambid
    Vashestambid April 13 2013 13: 45
    0
    Is it better to buy weapons abroad or equip the Russian army with domestic weapons?


    Чthen for a stupid question? Both!! drinks
    The professor is right as always !! hi
  • gladysheff2010
    gladysheff2010 April 13 2013 14: 26
    +3
    Oh, you certainly know better from Israel!
  • smile
    smile April 13 2013 14: 42
    +1
    Professor
    That's right, but the United States buys weapons and military equipment mainly in countries that will not stop supplying components and consumables in the event of an armed conflict with the allies, allies going exclusively in the wake of American politics ... again, they have common standards. In our situation, everything is diametrically opposite ... therefore, unfortunately, in my opinion there is no middle ground for us ...
  • skeptic
    skeptic April 13 2013 18: 17
    0
    Quote: Kohl
    It is necessary to find a middle ground. To date, not a single army possesses 100% of domestic weapons. Even the United States purchases some weapons abroad.


    Need to find a middle ground - between breathing or not breathing?

    Especially the "golden mean" will work in (God forbid) an international conflict, especially if the weapon is purchased from the enemy's ally.

    And so, judging by the flag, you can understand, even very much.
  • Simon
    Simon April 13 2013 23: 19
    0
    We need to invest in restoring our military-industrial complex in order to produce 100% of our modern weapons, otherwise we can weaken and then lose our state. The military-industrial complex gives jobs to many skilled workers, develops the scientific and technical potential of the state, in addition, modern weapons can be traded, which will additionally give an influx of currency into the budget. fool
  • KOMPLEKT
    KOMPLEKT April 14 2013 07: 28
    0
    Firstly, as our dear Clinton Billy said, let us define the concept of "c ex ..." oh army! Which armies have tasks commensurate with the Russian one (defense of 1/6 of the land) and the resulting necessary amount of weapons?! real armies in the world are: rf, usa, china, and india can be a plus. China and india do not release 100% of their weapons, not for the reason: "because no one in the world does that", but for lack of opportunities, BUT they are very eager to produce everything previously purchased at home.
    Well, about the main thing, about the economy of the military-industrial complex! The volume of consumption of the Russian Federation of each type of weapons allows you to develop and produce everything (from nuclear submarines to pistols)
    at least at comparable world prices (but in reality, taking into account exports is several times cheaper).
    And you will not believe Professor BUY, then you also need to be able to, it’s also work !!! And if the guys in 13 years profiled all the developments, destroyed and dragged the factories, what can they buy? They can only sell, and even someone else’s for nothing a piece remained.
  • unclevad
    unclevad April 14 2013 13: 28
    0
    There can be no middle ground here! Only your own and only the development of your R&D! Our people have a smart head. Proven throughout history. And in order to reduce development time and money, we have excellent intelligence. It has also been proven throughout history.
  • Denis
    Denis April 15 2013 00: 52
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Even the USA
    Yeah!
    Page of examples? No, I wouldn’t like this in any way. Are biblical sod and homorra in your area?
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 April 13 2013 10: 33
    +4
    Naturally, every self-respecting state should strive to provide for itself as much as possible. But not a single state, even the high-tech USA, can provide 100% of itself. Why are you strong, you have been bypassed in something ... Then there is a risk that boils in one's own juice . Sometimes it’s useful to buy something better (really the best) abroad to stir up your own military-industrial complex.
    1. Genady1976
      Genady1976 April 13 2013 11: 17
      +2
      Not for the army but for different KB, let them study and come up with better
  • svp67
    svp67 April 13 2013 12: 31
    +3
    Quote: fenix57
    It seems to me that the question is from the RHETORIC section. Of course, equip the DOMESTIC


    I do not quite agree. Of course, ALL military equipment and ALL its equipment should be produced at DOMESTIC factories. But if there is an opportunity, by buying a license, to improve our defenses for a more advanced model, to give designers the opportunity to familiarize themselves with this model, to create more advanced ones, then I am not against buying such samples abroad ...
    1. Raven1972
      Raven1972 April 13 2013 20: 05
      0
      I completely agree with this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! good
  • Yoshkin Kot
    Yoshkin Kot April 14 2013 21: 17
    +1
    that is, Joseph Vissarionovich, was a "radish" with a lend-lease
  • Mitek
    Mitek April 13 2013 07: 59
    +6
    Hedgehog is clear, it should be his own But even here not everything is smooth. We build ships for a very long time. The sea is red tape, the bureaucracy goes off scale. There are 2-3 idiots in the office of an "economist" or "lawyer" for one worker. I don't want to talk about corruption and banal theft. In the light of all this, the directors of factories who did not allow to plunder and destroy their enterprises in the 90s, and now mastering the serial production of new products, should be erected monuments!
  • Denis
    Denis April 13 2013 08: 00
    +2
    The question is, if not provocative, then stupid for sure. There have been a lot of surprises about the interruption of deliveries from abroad, etc. surprises in the complication of the situation, but are all our enterprises loaded with orders? This is also work, it’s the salary of the workers. Only fat .. .ram engaged in sawing and plundering the budget do not care
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov April 13 2013 09: 16
      +6
      The problem is with the working class. Over the years of downtime of the defense industry, he died out like a dinosaur. The training system has disappeared. The prestige of the labor of the worker fell below the plinth. There is no youth who wants to approach the machine. Critical decisions are needed both on raising wages and on increasing prestige.
      At the same time, one cannot brush aside the problems of education. The level of school education has fallen so much that to make a highly skilled worker out of a school graduate is a rather problematic task (especially in high-tech industries, such as radio electronics).
      Salaries must be raised at school, and by orders of magnitude. In the days of Stalin, my grandfather, working as a driver on a one and a half truck, combining the positions of a forwarder and a loader, earned 450 rubles, and my grandmother, a primary school teacher, earned 750 rubles at one rate. Here is such arithmetic. Therefore, people who received education in those days have a level of intelligence much higher than now.
      1. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 09: 24
        +2
        In the days of Stalin, my grandfather, working as a driver on a one and a half truck, combining the positions of a forwarder and a loader, earned 450 rubles, and my grandmother, a primary school teacher, earned 750 rubles at one rate. Here is such arithmetic.

        In Brezhnev’s times, my aunt, the head teacher of the school, received more than my father an SA officer serving in the highlands.
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm April 13 2013 11: 00
          +6
          Quote: Professor
          In Brezhnev’s times, my aunt, the head teacher of the school, received more than my father an SA officer serving in the highlands.

          So the status of a teacher should be on top, without it there can be no decent education, such is life.
          If the country is unpromising to be educated, then it is doomed, even oil and gas will not help.
          1. Professor
            Professor April 13 2013 13: 12
            +2
            If the country is unpromising to be educated, then it is doomed, even oil and gas will not help.

            Better not say. good
          2. old rocket man
            old rocket man April 13 2013 13: 15
            +5
            [quote = professor] [quote]
            In Brezhnev’s times, my aunt, the head teacher of the school, received more than my father an SA officer serving in the highlands. [/ Quote]

            It would be nice to clarify your father’s title. Your comparison is valid only for the beginning lieutenant - the total monetary allowance is 180 = 230 rubles. Teachers and university professors received a decent salary, but the salary of a major SA was higher than the salary of a doctor of science at a university
            1. Ascetic
              Ascetic April 13 2013 14: 43
              +5
              Quote: Old Rocketman
              It would not be bad to clarify the title of your father. Your comparison is true only for the beginning lieutenant - the total monetary allowance is 180 = 230 rubles.


              I was a lieutenant of the first year, along with the north, received 311 rubles. on hands. The unit commander with the rank of lieutenant colonel is something about 700r. I’m silent about tadpoles and others. And the salary of the head teacher of a school in the USSR is easy to clarify by opening Instruction on the procedure for calculating the wages of educators, approved. By order of the USSR Ministry of Food of 16.05.85 No. 94 then there was ETC and qualification categories. Perhaps the head teacher (with a discharge, hours of additional qualification) and there was a salary more than lieutenant in 220 rubles. but it’s not comparable with, for example, the salary of an average battalion commander.
            2. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 15: 02
              -1
              Your comparison is valid only for the beginning lieutenant-total monetary allowance 180 = 230 rubles.

              In the evening I’ll clarify how much pilots they received and I’ll inform you immediately. Will you wait?

              Checked, 1985 year, captain, navigator Mi-8, 340 rubles.
      2. DAEDALUS
        DAEDALUS April 13 2013 13: 12
        +2
        Mother at school is a teacher, 13th grade, the salary is lower than that of a technician. It's a shame.
    2. mr.Net
      mr.Net April 13 2013 09: 31
      0
      The problem is that most plants remained in the 80-90 level
      their equipment and their products no one needs. The question "to buy someone else's or
      your own? "will hang constantly. Putin's declared re-equipment of the aircraft is empty
      waste of money. If there are no transistors, chips, machines, then money will not solve
      problem.Konechno, something will be done, some boats, planes - all colossal means will be mastered by Putin-Medvedev's sidekicks. As a result, the sidekick will "report" to the great Pu that the army is armed with "no analogous weapons." wassat
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard April 13 2013 12: 35
        +2
        That is, there is no need to invest money? And you have to shout "vseprsralipolymers!" So what do you think ??
        We must apparently buy more yachts and football clubs .. Then you will be satisfied ?? wassat
      2. gladysheff2010
        gladysheff2010 April 13 2013 15: 01
        0
        And you, my dear fellow, have you seen a lot of factories, except on TV. There are not only thieves, but bureaucracy. Or do you think in the West "recoilless technologies"? In our country there are People with big money and with a capital letter. , Army, Industry are, first of all, people. And to shout about what others are shouting: this is both banal and cynical, and generally a herd instinct.
        1. mr.Net
          mr.Net April 13 2013 17: 50
          +2
          I, my dear, I work on one of these, repair everything ours with my own hands
          wealth and believe me know what I'm talking about
  • bubla5
    bubla5 April 13 2013 08: 14
    +3
    Yes, and it is unlikely that foreigners will give us modern technology, but it's worth tracking, analyzing and selecting the best from foreign developments
    1. Suhov
      Suhov April 13 2013 12: 54
      +3
      Quote: bubla5
      And it’s unlikely that foreigners will give us modern technology

      Do not give? You can steal!
      But first offer money. Do not want to take? Then let them blame themselves.

      Do you know the difference between Americans and Russians?
      They poke when they can’t buy,
      We buy when we cannot steal ...
      What is it for me?
      Besides stealing, this is the same as buying, but only cheaper ...
      wassat
  • Professor
    Professor April 13 2013 08: 34
    10 th
    The Kornet-EM complex was created; it qualitatively surpasses all existing ATGMs not only in basic characteristics, but also has new properties.

    With all due respect, he lagged a generation behind his competitors. request

    This association was carried out not only in armored, but also in artillery and anti-aircraft systems. Attempts to adopt the experience of such a combination are known in world practice, but nowhere have they been brought to such a level of technical excellence.

    Brought and successfully adopted.
    1. ultra
      ultra April 13 2013 09: 13
      +3
      Quote: Professor
      With all due respect, he lagged a generation behind his competitors.
      More specifically you can? hi
      1. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 09: 27
        -2
        More than once they have procrastinated this topic. At least with the fact that Cornet belongs to the second generation ATGM, Javelin and Spike to the third.
        Russia is late in developing third-generation ATGM
        1. ultra
          ultra April 13 2013 09: 40
          +3
          Quote: Professor
          More than once they have procrastinated this topic.
          But they did not come to a consensus! hi PS Hurray "patriots" and Russophobes do not count!
          1. Professor
            Professor April 13 2013 09: 52
            -4
            But they did not come to a consensus!

            There was no dispute about generations at all, Cornet the second, and Javelin and Spike the third with all the ensuing consequences.
            1. Massik
              Massik April 13 2013 11: 01
              +1
              Who told you this ??? Have you shot at least one ATGM yourself ??? The banal example of AK on xs has already lagged behind and this does not stop him from covering all SCARs and other riflemen, only the war will put everything in its place.
              1. Professor
                Professor April 13 2013 13: 15
                +1
                The banal example of AK on xs has already lagged behind and this does not stop him from covering all the SCARs and other riflemen, only the war will put everything in its place.

                But why AK dragged here? You would still remember the Big Ballet and the atomic icebreakers. Do you think the third-generation Cornet ATGM?
            2. ultra
              ultra April 13 2013 14: 03
              +3
              Quote: Professor
              There was no argument about generations at all, Cornet II,
              The only differences are the guidance system and price! And it’s not yet a fact that thermal imaging is better, and the price difference is huge! hi
              1. Professor
                Professor April 13 2013 14: 23
                0
                Well, there is not only thermal imaging, as you remember, but the price differs only twice, despite the fact that the salary differs more than 2 times. Here the Indians will establish their release and they will cost as an RPG-7. wink
            3. beard999
              beard999 April 13 2013 17: 36
              +3
              Quote: Professor
              Cornet of the second, and Javelin and Spike of the third with all the ensuing consequences

              And what are the actual “consequences”? The difference in generations does not guarantee the superiority of one ATGM over another. Americans have had a third generation ATGM for 20 years ("Javelin"), but they are not at all abandoning an XNUMXnd generation ATGM ("Hellfire"). Moreover, in real hostilities, in the conditions of modern armed conflicts (Afghanistan, etc.), they have the most used, just the second generation ATGM, and not the III.
              Compare the characteristics of III generation (Spike-ER) and II generation (9M133M-2) rockets of the same class: length - 1670 mm / 1210 mm (in TPK), caliber - 170 mm / 152 mm, weight 34 kg / 31 kg , the minimum launch range of 400 m / 150 m, the maximum range of 8000 m / 8000 m, the flight speed of 180 m / s / 300 m / s, armor penetration - there are no official data (the media wrote about 950-1000 mm) / up to 1300 mm. Thus, if we objectively consider the characteristics of ATGMs of the 150nd and 160rd generations, then there is no mention of ATGMs of the 400rd generation over II. Just the opposite. And, for example, the low average speed of the Spike rocket on the trajectory (of the order of XNUMX-XNUMX m / s) and an excessively large minimum launch range (XNUMX m) make these ATGMs unsuitable for combat in urban areas.
              And the thermal imaging seeker, with all the advantages of autonomous guidance, has its drawbacks. For example, to protect against such GOS, simple and relatively cheap camouflage coatings and materials (such as “Cape”, etc.) are effective. But against second-generation ATGMs (in particular, “Cornet”), such defenses are ineffective, since the “see-shoot” method is implemented there.
              It is quite obvious that the reference to “generations”, in itself, does not guarantee the superiority of the complex of the third generation over the second.
              1. Professor
                Professor April 13 2013 18: 52
                -2
                Quote: beard999
                And the thermal imaging seeker, with all the advantages of autonomous guidance, has its drawbacks.

                On Spike thermal imaging seeker. Do not have another one? wink
                1. beard999
                  beard999 April 13 2013 21: 44
                  +1
                  Quote: Professor
                  There is no other?

                  It is the GOS - no. Is this news for you? I hope you will not “record” the electron-optical image transmission system as a separate GOS? Moreover, the operator, by any means, through a rocket observes the target in the thermal spectrum ...
                  1. Professor
                    Professor April 13 2013 21: 52
                    -1
                    It is the GOS - no. Is this news for you?

                    News of the day!

                    I hope you will not “record” the electron-optical image transmission system as a separate GOS?

                    Transfer to where? Onboard control system? The operator does not have to watch the picture, that's why it is called "shot and dumped".

                    Moreover, the operator, by any means, through a rocket observes the target in the thermal spectrum ...

                    Really? Are you and me about Spike?
                    1. beard999
                      beard999 April 14 2013 10: 54
                      0
                      Quote: Professor
                      News of the day!

                      Those. Do you insist that in addition to the thermal imaging GOS, there is some other GOS on the Spike-ER? OK. Give a link to the information that there are more than one GOS on Spike.
                      Quote: Professor
                      The operator doesn't have to watch the picture, that's why it is called "fired and dumped".

                      And why did you write this? Has anyone argued with this? You asked about a certain “other” GOS on Spike-ER. Well, call her in the end, do not be shy.
                      Quote: Professor
                      Are you and me about Spike?

                      I don’t know what you mean, but I’m talking about Spike-ER http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/3/923.pdf and http://www.airwar.ru/weapon /aat/spike-er.html. To implement autonomous guidance ("Fire and Forget"), the thermal imaging seeker of the rocket must capture the target before launch. And what are you trying to argue here I don’t understand ...
                      1. Professor
                        Professor April 14 2013 15: 13
                        0
                        Those. Do you insist that in addition to the thermal imaging GOS, there is some other GOS on the Spike-ER? OK. Give a link to the information that there are more than one GOS on Spike.

                        Thermal speak? Oh well. Here is my comment from December 25 2011 18: 29

                        Look at the damned video and try to explain how the thermal imager can distinguish white painted spots on the turret and on the tank barrel. After all, the thermal signature is the same (the thermal mass of the tower is incommensurably greater than the 10 micron layer of paint on these white spots). The shooting clip from Peru is divided into day and night shooting, where the operation of the optical channel is clearly visible.



                        Do you see the shadow? Doesn’t say anything?


                        The manufacturer’s description refers to two channels: High hit probability against stationary and moving targets is achieved by means of an advanced, electro-optic CCD / IIR seeker sophisticated tracker and a highly precise guidance system.
                        CCD works exclusively in the optical range. The fact that the rocket has only one "window" does not mean that an elementary beam splitter is not installed to be able to use both channels. So I'm not sure about Javelin, but Spike definitely has an optical channel on the GOS.


                        Pay attention to the Spike launcher. The optical channel and thermal imaging are clearly visible.
                    2. Professor
                      Professor April 14 2013 15: 14
                      +1
                      In the next video, the differences from the CCD camera during daytime shooting and the thermal imaging night camera are clearly visible.


                      Moreover, the operator, by any means, through a rocket observes the target in the thermal spectrum ...

                      No, look at the PU more closely.

                      To implement autonomous guidance ("Fire and Forget"), the thermal imaging seeker of the rocket must capture the target before launch.



                      PS
                      To my great satisfaction, my negative rating limits the number of my comments on the forum, therefore I will refrain from unnecessary skirmishing and go deeper into studying the materiel and writing and translating articles. I have the honor. hi
                      1. beard999
                        beard999 April 15 2013 13: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        To my great satisfaction, my negative rating limits the number of my comments on the forum, therefore, I will refrain from unnecessary skirmishing and go deeper into the study of materiel and the writing and translation of articles

                        I am sorry that you have a "negative rating", but, nevertheless, why you call our conversation a "skirmish" is not clear to me.
                        And as for the study of "materiel" you wrote correctly. Study!
                        What modification of Spike did I write to you, remember? Spike-er? Where do you see the use of this particular anti-tank system in the commercials shown? Do you not know that the Spike family uses different guidance systems for various modifications? You wrote correctly about the Spike-ER GOS - CCD / IIR. This abbreviation indicates the presence of a CCD in the GOS (a charge-coupled device, CCD) and a focal plane array of the GOS (IIR). You will not find any more official details on the Spike-ER GOS. For example, in what mode does the camera work on the CCD? The same European ATGW / LR as part of the GOS, also has CCD / IIR and there it is described as follows: “The main element of the GOS is a thermal imaging camera on charge-coupled devices operating in the infrared (8-10 μm) waves and with cryogenic cooling ". http://commi.narod.ru/txt/2001/0203.htm. And if on Spike-ER as well? The Israelis themselves have repeatedly written (including on the same crow's bark) that the CCD was performed on the image intensifier tube (i.e., IR). Otherwise (if it is an optical device) on the Spike-ER it is not possible to carry out correction at night, not to mention the difficult weather, smoke, etc. In addition, it is well known that at long ranges there is simply no other way to use the IR CCD matrix http://www.smedvedem.ru/pages/993/. There is no official source of information about the presence of an optical guidance channel on Spike-ER. So there’s nothing to argue with.
                        I understand that you started this conversation in response to my remark that you can protect yourself from ATGMs like “Spike” with camouflage kits. So, anyway, if you use autonomous guidance (that is, “shot-forgot”) when the thermal imaging seeker captures the target before the start, camouflage coatings work fine. The same ancient “Cape” protects including ranges of 0,4 ... 1,5 microns, 3,5 ... 5 microns, 7 ... 16 microns, i.e. covers the operating range of the Spike GOS.
                      2. Professor
                        Professor April 15 2013 16: 07
                        +2
                        There is no official source of information about the presence of an optical guidance channel on Spike-ER. So there’s nothing to argue with.

                        Here is the materiel for you.Product Name: SPIKE ER
                        Spike-er uses a day seeker or day / night seeker, tandem warhead, and retains the dual operation modes of Spike- Fire-and-Forget & Fire-Observe and Update.
                        To translate what is day seeker and what wavelengths of daylight?

                        SPIKE-ER
                        Electro-optic CCD or dual (CCD / IIR) sensors
                        Do you think the Electro-optic CCD is not an optical device and does not indicate the presence of an optical channel? So learn the materiel properly.

                        Spike-er? Where do you see the use of this particular anti-tank system in the commercials shown?

                        I gave you a video from the GOS Spike-MR, indicating the presence of an optical channel, with Spike NLOS I can also give you. But do you need a video from SPIKE-ER? Persuaded, here's a video testimony. I hope you won’t argue that this is not an "optical channel"? lol
  • Gregazov
    Gregazov April 13 2013 09: 20
    +1
    Everything is checked on the battlefield. At present, there are no such conflicts, thank God. However, in the Gulf War, Cornet's predecessors pretty well burned US tanks.
  • korvin1976
    korvin1976 April 13 2013 09: 20
    +3
    It would be interesting to find out from what complexes our Kornet-EM lagged behind by a whole generation?
    And what complexes of combining art and missile weapons can currently compete with our complexes.
    Enlighten us, otherwise we may be behind the times.
    Just please do not give examples, prototypes, inefficient systems with overestimated characteristics and other nonsense.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 09: 30
      +4
      And what complexes of combining art and missile weapons can currently compete with our complexes.

      And this is where? request Air defense is traditionally strong in the USSR and Russia, and also by the way is not from a good life.

      PS
      It would be interesting to find out from what complexes our Kornet-EM lagged behind by a whole generation?

      Javelin, Spike
      1. korvin1976
        korvin1976 April 13 2013 09: 42
        +4
        This association was carried out not only in armored, but also in artillery and anti-aircraft systems. Attempts to adopt the experience of such a combination are known in world practice, but nowhere have they been brought to such a level of technical excellence.

        Brought and successfully adopted.


        Excuse me, aren't your words?
        So it became interesting to me what such complexes were brought and successfully adopted
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 09: 59
          -1
          1. Massik
            Massik April 13 2013 11: 03
            +2
            Whaling or Krasnopol is not much worse, moreover, they are not so dependent on all the necessary GLONASS.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 13: 19
              -2
              Firstly, I didn’t write what was worse (although the need to illuminate the target gunner at a very close distance makes this shell more dangerous and unmasks it).
              Secondly, I just gave an example of inaccuracy in the phrase: "Attempts to adopt the experience of such a combination are known in world practice, but nowhere have they been brought to such a level of technical perfection." Once again, they have been brought up and successfully used in combat conditions.
          2. korvin1976
            korvin1976 April 13 2013 11: 56
            +5
            I am talking to you about combining art and missile systems, and you to me about high-precision shells. The conversation was about "Shell - C1", in it there is such an association, for example.
            Javelin, Spike, of course, belong to the 3rd generation of ATGMs, but do not forget that these systems are still far from perfect, and it is rather difficult to consider them as competitors of the Kornet.
            As already mentioned, the previous Russian ATGMs have established themselves as an excellent tool, I do not think that the "Cornet" is inferior to them in terms of characteristics, but at the expense of foreign systems, there is only performance characteristics.
            The lag in the elemental base and electronic stuffing in Russian industry is in the face, and no one argues with this, but this does not mean that this fact applies to the rest.
            The main criteria for the creation of military equipment in Russia have been and remain: Practicality, Reliability and Versatility. I think no examples are required.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 13: 23
              +2
              The conversation was about "Shell - C1"

              Reread please what the conversation was about.
              In the field of weapons systems for armored vehicles (BTT), we have created unique in their characteristics guided weapons systems. Russia, represented by Design Instrument Engineering Bureau OJSC (KBP OJSC, which is part of the holding of NPO High Precision Complexes OJSC), is the creator of the concept for combining artillery and guided missiles in one system. Such a combination of means can significantly increase the technical level from 3 to 15 times, reduce the required number of combat units, which leads to a sharp decrease in costs, and simplifies command and control on the battlefield. This association was carried out not only in armored, but also in artillery and anti-aircraft systems. Attempts to adopt the experience of such a combination are known in world practice, but nowhere have they been brought to such a level of technical excellence.
          3. Raven1972
            Raven1972 April 13 2013 14: 58
            +1
            Professor, is there anything that this wunderwaffle is still in a series of experimental models and has not been adopted? Well, they can’t make a normal electronic filling, so that they can withstand overloads during a shot ... Ballistic shock - do you know the term? So this is so far from a series of regular boasts like SOI ...
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 15: 02
              -2
              Professor, but nothing that this prodigy is still in a series of experimental samples and has not been adopted

              Accepted, dear. Look at the links posted by me. There and combat use.
  • barmaley
    barmaley April 13 2013 10: 59
    13 th
    Dear prof. I once advised you - do not mark the beads in front of the pigs, in-those have all the data on the spike and cornet
    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/spike.htm
    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/kornet.htm
    just compare!
    1. ultra
      ultra April 13 2013 11: 14
      +7
      Quote: barmaley
      I once advised you - do not roll beads in front of pigs
      Why do you go to "PIGS"? Is this a form of MAZOCHISM? You should see a doctor !!! request
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic April 13 2013 12: 53
        +5
        Quote: ultra
        Why do you go to "PIGS"? Is this a form of MAZOCHISM? You should see a doctor !!!


        Something else is being developed in the "pigsty" and do not stand still
        Here on "Courage" back in 2011. discussed

        Development of a melee ATGM system with an autonomous control system "Autonomia"
        The "Autonomy" complex combines the best characteristics of anti-tank grenade launchers with an unguided grenade - simplicity of design, high noise immunity, implementation of the "fire-and-forget" principle and guided ATGMs - a high probability of hitting, a powerful warhead. The complex ensures the destruction of tanks both with a direct hit and and from above (on the span) through the use of appropriate warheads. The missile control system has an angular stabilization autopilot with highly efficient gas-jet rudders interacting with the supersonic flow of the racing engine.
        Major TTX
        Direct Shot Range - 350 m (for both options)
        Warhead weight - option "in frontal projection" (hereinafter -1) - tandem cumulative - 5,2 kg
        - option "on top of the span" (hereinafter - 2) - type "impact core" - 8,5 kg
        - high-explosive-fragmentation type - 8,5 kg
        Missile mass - option 1 - 10 kg, option 2 - 15 kg
        Missile length - option 1 - 1000 mm, option 2 - 1250 mm
        The mass of the complex in the combat position - option 1 - 14,5 kg, option 2 - 19,5 kg
        Developer - TsNIITochmash


        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic April 13 2013 13: 04
          +3
          The new missile system is capable of hitting modern and promising tanks equipped with dynamic defense, lightly armored vehicles, fortifications, surface and air targets (UAVs, helicopters, attack aircraft).
          "Kornet-D" has 8 missiles, ready to fire, with a full ammunition load of 16 pieces. The salvo fire at two targets significantly increases the rate of fire and fire performance. The complex allows firing all missiles of the Kornet-E family
          The main tactical and technical characteristics of the complex:
          • firing range:
          - minimum - 150 m,
          - maximum - 10000 m,
          • control system - automatic with tele-orientation in the laser beam,
          • noise immunity - high,
          • the number of simultaneously fired targets in one gulp - 2,
          • armor penetration of a cumulative warhead - 1100-1300 mm,
          • TNT high explosive warhead equivalent - 7 kg,
          • ammunition - 16 pcs.,
          - including ready-to-shoot - 8 pcs.,
          • time of transfer from traveling to combat - 7 s.
          The use of technical vision in the Kornet-D complex with an automatic target tracking system allows you to exclude a person from the ATGM guidance process and actually ensures the implementation of the “shot and forget” principle, up to 5 times increasing the accuracy of target tracking in real combat applications and ensuring a high probability of getting into the entire range of range of the combat use of the complex, twice the range of ATGM “Cornet-E”.
          The ability to hit targets in automatic mode reduces the psychophysical burden on operators, the requirements for their qualifications, and also reduces the time for their preparation.
          Almost twice - up to 10 km, the firing range of the complex was increased. Due to the improvement of the control system of the complex, the designs of guided missile engines and the introduction of an automatic target tracking system, the firing range of the complex was increased to 8 (ATGM with CCF) - 10 km (SD with FCF). At the same time, the accuracy of the Kornet-D anti-tank missile system was 10 km higher than that of the Kornet-E base complex by 5 km, while the new missiles retained the dimensions and interface parameters of the previously developed Kornet-E anti-tank missiles. to ensure their compatibility with previously developed launchers and to maintain operational characteristics. Improving the range and accuracy of shooting, the implementation of auto tracking, which provides the ability to track not only slow ground targets, but also faster objects, made it possible to solve in the Kornet-D complex a fundamentally new for ATGM the task is to defeat small-sized air targets (helicopters, UAVs and attack aircraft of attack aircraft).

          1. Ascetic
            Ascetic April 13 2013 13: 10
            +5
            ATGM "Kornet-D" were tested in Tula in 20011



            But the Belarusian ATGM "Shershen"



            So shta-ah-ah in the "pigsty" something else can
            1. sashka
              sashka April 13 2013 13: 44
              -2
              Quote: Ascetic
              So shta-ah-ah in the "pigsty" something else can

              An element base in the studio please .. China, France or who else is there?
              1. Suhov
                Suhov April 13 2013 17: 25
                +2
                Quote: Sasha
                An element base in the studio please .. China, France or who else is there?

                If in the form of drawings and papers - I do not mind,
                but if in the form of a full-scale product - please wait, I’ll leave the studio now ...
                laughing
              2. old rocket man
                old rocket man April 13 2013 22: 32
                +2
                Quote: Sasha
                Quote: Ascetic
                So shta-ah-ah in the "pigsty" something else can

                An element base in the studio please .. China, France or who else is there?

                So that you no longer sing from someone else's voice, I bring to your attention that during production all of weapons and ammunitionapply only domestic components, which is why our electronics are somewhat lagging behind in terms of weight and dimensions from the "foreign"but that's just for now hi
          2. SPACE
            SPACE April 13 2013 14: 01
            +2
            .. forgot to add that other shelters and fortifications without a thermal and radar background, unlike the expensive and widely advertised javelin.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 13 2013 14: 25
              -1
              On Spike is not only a thermal imaging seeker.Russia is late in developing third-generation ATGM
              1. Ascetic
                Ascetic April 13 2013 19: 41
                +2
                At one time, the KBP leadership, despite as officially announced, on the successful completion of development work on anti-tank guided missiles operating on a "shot-forgot" basis, refused to implement this concept in the Kornet complex in order to achieve the greatest possible firing ranges compared to Western counterparts, using the principle of "see-shoot" and a laser-beam control system. The stake was made on the creation of a combined system of anti-tank weapons that implement both of these principles - both “shot-forgot” and “see-shoot” - with emphasis on the relative cheapness of ATGMs.
                It was supposed to organize anti-tank defense with three complexes of various standard affiliation. To do this, in the support zone - from the front edge of the defense to a depth of 15 kilometers towards the enemy - it was planned to deploy light portable ATGMs with a firing range of up to 2,5 kilometers, self-propelled and portable with a range of up to 5,5, self-propelled ATGM Hermes BMP-3 chassis with a range of up to 15 kilometers.
                The control system of the promising multi-purpose complex "Hermes" combined. In the initial phase of the flight, the rocket of the discussed version with a range of 15–20 kilometers is controlled by an inertial system. In the final section, there is a laser semi-active homing of a missile at a target by laser radiation reflected from it, as well as infrared or radar. The complex was developed in three versions: land, sea and aviation.
                Currently, only the latest version, Hermes-A, is officially in development of the KBP. In the future, it is possible to equip “Hermes” anti-aircraft missile-cannon systems (ZRPK) “Shell-C1” developed by the same KBP. In Tula also a third-generation ATGM "Autonomy" was developed with an infrared homing system of type IIR (Imagine Infra-Red), which was never brought to the level of mass production.
                link

                The point is not in the technical lag and lag, but in the choice of the optimal path of development. Our military is not yet in a hurry with the purchase and serial production of the same "Autonomy" which belongs to the 3rd generation of ATGMs. The main thing is efficiency and ease of operation in real combat conditions. Perhaps they are right not to be fooled by super duper enticements right away. remembering the lessons of SDI.
              2. old rocket man
                old rocket man April 13 2013 22: 45
                +2
                Quote: Professor
                Russia is late with the development of third-generation ATGMs [/ leech]


                This is because our second is better than their third hi
      2. Esso
        Esso April 13 2013 12: 54
        +4
        I’ll wedge my comment, firstly there’s nothing bad that we use foreign technologies in the civilian sphere, especially since we don’t know how to make cars, computers are not strong either, our American processor, or rather Chinese in the USA, hasn’t been produced for a long time, one thing the civilian sphere at our defense plants is German, French, Italian machine guns and the latest weapons are being developed on them, one thing is civilian, but military equipment should be produced only with us, only everything is described in detail in the article, politics is such a thing, inconsistent, everything should be we, we have allies of Belarus, for example, they also produce interesting specimens there, but for the defense of the country everything should be done only with us, tanks, guns, electronics, we all are not dependent on anyone, everyone understands this, the Chinese are doing good work everywhere, it’s time to start ours.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 13: 25
          +4
          ,
          more precisely, Chinese has not been produced in the USA for a long time

          Well yes? Where does Intel keep its advanced fabs? In Arizona, why the 43 Fab for 5 billion dollars why builds?
        2. sashka
          sashka April 13 2013 14: 09
          -2
          I understand that you knock on the keys with the Chinese system unit from there too .. And the phone, car, TV, Russian-made? Do not say nonsense ..
    2. korvin1976
      korvin1976 April 13 2013 12: 02
      +2
      Good links, informative.
      Question Do you read the articles to the end?

      conclusions

      SPIKE ATGM is one of the most advanced to date, however, with its low speed of 130-180 130-180 m / s, the use of active protection systems, such as Arena, and the new generation of dynamic protection systems will make it useless, an introduction to ammunition for all tanks of multispectral grenades for the installation of a smoke screen.

      As a result, we have: A perfect useless complex, for a fairly large amount.
      1. Professor
        Professor April 13 2013 13: 28
        +3
        the use of active protection systems, such as Arena, and the new generation of dynamic protection systems will make it useless

        Excuse me, who has KAZ in service and which tank is covered from above from tandem ammunition?
      2. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi April 13 2013 13: 32
        0
        You know, India apparently disagrees with you.
        India and Israel are close to concluding an agreement on the delivery of the Spike anti-tank guided missiles developed by the RAFAEL concern to the Indian army. According to the Times of India, the deal will amount to 2,759 billion dollars.
        In accordance with the terms of the agreement, India will not only purchase third-generation Israeli missiles, but will also receive a license to manufacture them. This will allow Israel to strengthen its position as the second supplier of weapons to the Indian army after Russia.
        Since a tender for the supply of ATGMs was not announced, a preliminary agreement was transferred to the technology commission of the General Staff. The examination should confirm that the Israeli development is superior in quality to the potential competitors. The Indian army, which numbers 1,1 million people, is significantly inferior to recent opponents in this indicator - the shortage is 44.000 missiles.
        Initially, India tried to develop rockets on its own. After these attempts ended in failure, the Indians turned to the manufacturers of Israeli anti-tank anti-tank missiles Spike and American anti-tank anti-tank vehicles Javelin. However, the United States refused to grant a license for the production of missiles. In accordance with the plan for the development of the armed forces, by 2017, each infantry battalion should receive eight launchers, each with 12 missiles, and the mountain battalion - two units. In the future, third-generation missiles will receive mechanized units.
        1. Fin
          Fin April 13 2013 22: 25
          0
          So he will come to us to study. Thank. Save on R&D.
        2. KOMPLEKT
          KOMPLEKT April 14 2013 08: 46
          0
          Quote: Aaron Zawi
          Since a tender for the supply of ATGMs was not announced, a preliminary agreement was transferred to the technology commission of the General Staff. Examination should confirm that Israeli development is superior in quality of missiles to potential competitors


          Those. It is scary to compare ATGMs in the same conditions with an open technical assignment, so the expert examination must confirm (as with Italian helicopters). This comedy can only be regarded as a confirmation of the superiority of the 2nd generation ATGM "Kornet" over the 3rd generation ATGM "Spike"
  • Nikolko
    Nikolko April 13 2013 08: 36
    +7
    If you buy something abroad, then only in single copies, and only for study!
    1. Denis
      Denis April 13 2013 09: 20
      +3
      Quote: Nikolko
      in single copies, and only for study
      So did
      True, for a long time, at the dawn of formation, it was not the SA, but the Red Army
    2. Gregazov
      Gregazov April 13 2013 09: 21
      +2
      Something we do not want to sell small lots to the Chinese. Do you think other manufacturers are dumber than us?
  • mogus
    mogus April 13 2013 08: 38
    +5
    "castrated" versions are always exported. Buying there means not supporting your own money and giving development to your own industry. You can buy to borrow technologies that are either underdeveloped or completely new. Naturally, after the devastation of the 90s we are lagging behind, but this does not mean giving up our own!
    1. mogus
      mogus April 13 2013 08: 42
      +8
      question to administrators: why did they register me from Siberia to Poland? Of course, I understand that both of my grandfathers from villages with exiled Poles ...
  • Boris55
    Boris55 April 13 2013 08: 43
    +4
    Modern weapons are high-tech, crammed with all kinds of electronics.
    Electronics can be controlled from space.
    By pressing a key from the Pentagon - all purchased weapons fail.
    Purchasing weapons abroad - we run the risk of being left without weapons at all.

    Yes, and jobs need to be created for their citizens and not to feed a foreign country.

    I am against arms purchases over the hill.
    1. Gregazov
      Gregazov April 13 2013 09: 25
      0
      I am also against foreign purchases. However, the button can also be pressed in the case of Domestic production on an imported element base. However, this is exactly the case at the moment. The elemental base of radio electronics - purchased abroad, and not produced in their homeland.
  • UFO
    UFO April 13 2013 09: 13
    +4
    Hedgehog it is clear that a sovereign state should produce, for its own security, the maximum possible line of military products. But, ... The Great Past of the Superpower is pressing on us: what airplanes we have! What ships! .... It’s hard to admit that in some places we are behind, and seriously. In some areas they even lost what was. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the fact that some samples can be purchased, developed and developed. Honor and praise to those who survived the years of disintegration and retained a scientific school, personnel and production facilities, develops and manufactures modern products, but not everyone succeeded. We have enough weak spots, therefore - think up the arguments in defense of the procurement of individual types of weapons yourself, to whom some will seem quite weighty. hi
  • Romeohihnic
    Romeohihnic April 13 2013 09: 17
    +3
    Of course, domestic weapons, so we will support our arms manufacturers and our own is somehow closer, dear to chtoli. And our weapons are not worse than the West and somewhere better and not even somewhere but everywhere. Russia Mother is invincible !!!!
    1. mayor46
      mayor46 April 13 2013 09: 46
      0
      I totally agree.
  • SPACE
    SPACE April 13 2013 09: 50
    +2
    Buying our weapons, we have and control our market, paying money to our military-industrial complex, we invest in Russia, in ourselves, in its modernization, education, economy, we pay people salaries so that they live. Let them say that it’s not an effective defense industry and not perfect types of equipment, but it’s our technique, it’s our brains, and do not care about someone else’s opinion! It is clear why this is said, to be afraid. In the end, the USSR-Russia over the past 100 years defeated the most powerful army in the world with its domestic weapons and managed with its only 500 millions of people EQUAL to create industries, technologies and weapons that are not inferior to the rest of the world, including and Western, and in many ways superior to them. The first went to COSMOS, mastered nuclear and thermonuclear technologies, etc. They say that they are behind, we don’t do iPhones, but I agree that we are far behind the Downs in the production of toys, but they themselves will gladly sell them for cheap to us.
    Z.Y. They will sell the rope on which we hang them. V.I. Lenin.
    1. Gazprom
      Gazprom April 13 2013 10: 38
      -1
      Buying our weapons, we have and control our market, paying money to our military-industrial complex, we invest in Russia, in ourselves, in its modernization, education, economy, we pay people salaries so that they live

      yes, yes, yes, the truth is, first you need to shoot a couple of directors of enterprises, so as not to steal ...
      why, recalling the latest interviews with Rogozin, some directors allow themselves 1.5 million salaries instead of modernizing production rob soy enterprises, renting out space for night clubs,
      but neither ours, although they produce expensive, outdated bullshit, but they don’t poke money on workers or development into their own pockets.

      ps. according to rumors "Nash" Izhmash kicked Lobaev out as a competitor, because it interferes with driving a wretched weapon, wretched not by design, but by the cheap technology of modern managers ...
      1. SPACE
        SPACE April 13 2013 11: 25
        +1
        Well, yes, everything around us is thieves and all weapons are expensive and outdated bullshit. For twenty years, FREEDOM FROM CONSCIENCE, and not even that could have been. Just for some reason, Russia is still in second place in the export of weapons and even from places of military events, Russian weapons are fighting against the Russian. You google it and compare the prices for super duper Javelin and Cornet? There is a bad weapon, there is a good one, and there is a RUSSIAN one! Russian weapons for war, and everything else for exhibitions and for the dough. And all this propagated electronic with 013mcr technology is not for war. War is not a walk or a toy, they kill at all.
        1. Gazprom
          Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 32
          +2
          ! Russian weapons for war, and everything else for exhibitions and for the dough. And all this propagated electronic with 013mkr technology is not for war. War is not a walk or a toy, they kill at all.

          powerful, patriotic, true ....
          after the war 08,08,08 a lot of conclusions were made about the poor organization of combat control due to the lack of modern communication systems, the unification of communications between the combat arms, the lack of satellite constellation for autonomous reference of coordinates of targets, the lack of unmanned aircraft in the right quantities and all these are the same things for exhibitions , all this propagandized electronic with 013mkr technology this is not for war. and for the absence thereof, someone had to pay with blood.
          1. SPACE
            SPACE April 13 2013 12: 22
            +1
            Quote: Gazprom
            all this propagated electronic with xnumxcr technology is not for war. and for the absence thereof, someone had to pay with blood.

            Then what does the Kalashnikov rifle have to do with it? etc. The problems are not from the lack of opportunities to make a microcircuit, but from the lack of some microcircuits in the brain of some military and leadership. But this is not critical, all this can be done and is being done, despite the skepticism of which.
            1. Gazprom
              Gazprom April 13 2013 12: 26
              -1
              Quote: SPACE
              Then what does the Kalashnikov rifle have to do with it? etc. The problems are not from the lack of opportunities to make a microcircuit, but from the lack of some microcircuits in the brain of some military and leadership. But this is not critical, all this can be done and is being done, despite the skepticism of which.

              and really where does the Kalash? Uncle in Kiev, and in the garden a plant?
              what are the microchips in the head, in the absence of modern electronic equipment in the army?
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 09: 52
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    So the USSR did before the Iron Curtain and it didn’t hurt then they wandered.

    Be careful, now the jingoists will run up and prove with a foam at the mouth that everything was 100% Soviet in the SA. laughing

    Well, you, dear Jew, will certainly prove everything against Russia!
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 09: 57
      0
      Well, you, dear Jew, will certainly prove everything against Russia!

      You would work in the main rabbinic of Israel to determine who is a Jew and who is not. wink
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 10: 16
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Well, you, dear Jew, will certainly prove everything against Russia!

    You would work in the main rabbinic of Israel to determine who is a Jew and who is not. wink

    Your flag has said for you, and we will always prove the sorrow of the patriots about the superiority of our weapons with foam at the mouth and to the last drop of blood am
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 10: 41
      +7
      Your flag has said for you, and we will always prove the sorrow of the patriots about the superiority of our weapons with foam at the mouth and to the last drop of blood

      The flag is my irritant for cheers-patriots (not to be confused with true patriots) and having the opportunity to change it to any other, I decided to leave it. Some Russian weapons are superior to foreign ones, and some are behind. This is a harsh reality.
      1. Captain Vrungel
        Captain Vrungel April 13 2013 11: 04
        +4
        I agree, professor. Create your own. Buy more perfect and create your own. During hostilities, actively use captured weapons and, preferably, first of all, keeping your own, as the Israeli Armed Forces operate. Or China, according to the principle "everything is mine."
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm April 13 2013 11: 09
      +2
      Quote: Prapor Afonya
      Your flag said for you

      The flag means that most likely a person lives in Israel, that he is most likely a Jew, but this does not mean that he is a believer, which the professor tried to explain.
    3. ultra
      ultra April 13 2013 11: 18
      +2
      Quote: Prapor Afonya
      and we grief patriots will always prove the superiority of our weapons
      I’m PATRIOT but I’m not going to prove anything with foam at my mouth! We must really evaluate the technique! hi
      1. sashka
        sashka April 13 2013 13: 47
        0
        Quote: ultra
        I'M A PATRIOT

        It sounds beautiful. And the color is not bad. That's just the taste is incomprehensible. Are you a rebel?
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 48
          -8
          The real heroes - the heroes of the ROA, are you also rebels?
          1. sashka
            sashka April 13 2013 14: 13
            -2
            Quote: Uneducable
            The real heroes - the heroes of the ROA, are you also rebels?

            Are you talking to me ? If to me yes. The fact is that the rebel and the patriot at the moment are one and the same. What and how to understand, everyone understands at their discretion.
          2. smile
            smile April 13 2013 16: 40
            +1
            Ineducable
            Well, here we are ..... here the Nazi henchmen have settled here ... why did you blur out about the miserable traitors from the ROA, if not secret? To revive the discussion, or pent? No, I get it. spring exacerbation ... but maybe you should still see a doctor?
          3. svp67
            svp67 April 13 2013 18: 39
            +1
            Quote: Uneducable
            The real heroes - the heroes of the ROA, are you also rebels?



            They are not "rebels", they are traitors. So they did not rebel against the dictatorship, but took the side of the enemy of their homeland ...
        2. ultra
          ultra April 13 2013 14: 12
          0
          Quote: Sasha
          It sounds beautiful. And the color is not bad. That's just the taste is incomprehensible.
          And they listened and looked, even tasted it! Yes, you are HUMAN! lol
          1. sashka
            sashka April 13 2013 14: 29
            +1
            Quote: ultra
            And they listened and looked, even tasted it! Yes, you are HUMAN!

            Yes, like that hare in a joke. I saw, looked, sniffed. licked. Yes it is the same. Well, that did not come))) In your opinion is PATRIOTISM? Gourmet CORRECTLY.
            1. ultra
              ultra April 13 2013 14: 37
              0
              Quote: Sasha
              Gourmet CORRECTLY.
              The slip came out, added without checking! hi
    4. smile
      smile April 13 2013 16: 34
      +2
      Prapor Afonya
      Come on ... well, what difference does it make to you, a Jew, a Professor or an Eskimo ... it’s probably more important that he writes here, huh? If he writes something wrong - swear at the health-holy thing :))) .. and so ... somehow it’s not good ... now, I admit, I am amazed at his endurance - he practically does not respond to unjustified attacks .. . Similar arrivals will turn anyone into an inveterate Russophobe - do you need it?
      1. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 22: 55
        +2
        Quote: smile
        here, I confess, I am amazed at his endurance - he practically does not respond to unreasonable attacks
        I admit too, so many inadequate on the site that it becomes scary for the motherland! hiPS On the other hand, the truth is also enough!
  • Ineducable
    Ineducable April 13 2013 10: 25
    10 th
    Of course it is better to buy in the west. In addition to air defense systems, we have nothing good. Tanks - trash with flying towers, armored personnel carriers (and BMP-3) - trash from which it is impossible to safely and normally land, BMP and BMD-1/2 - just trash that falls apart on the go, machine guns in the troops are also a piece of trash from which and it’s scary to shoot, there’s no light machine gun like FN Minimi at all, the RPK-74 is written off due to its wretchedness and exchanged for PKM / PKP, which can’t be called light, besides, the rifle cartridge 7.62x54r with a rim that simply doesn’t make it high-grade tape nutrition without crutches. The list goes on and on, but the fact is a fact - the Russian army simply cannot survive without Western weapons.
    1. Massik
      Massik April 13 2013 11: 07
      0
      A couple of our trash are afraid of minke whales, at 08 their American perfection did not help the Georgians defeat us, bent their trash.
      1. Ineducable
        Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 08
        -9
        That war is a typical example of a military victory and a diplomatic defeat.
      2. Gazprom
        Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 12
        0
        well, very urapatriotic, it’s immediately obvious that you did not read the report on the 888 war
        smart communication, huge (as I think) loss of aviation, lack of drones, coordination, etc., etc.
        Thank God on the other side they didn’t really want to fight, otherwise we would be completely unhappy
      3. sashka
        sashka April 13 2013 14: 02
        +2
        You are wrong .. why so many losses? Was it stupidity? Or did the enemies still resist? Why didn't they "bring it to the end?" Maybe someone "advised"? Just questions and not a single answer.
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 06
          -2
          From uneducability and inability to realize that tank armada on the European plains are a thing of the past.
    2. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm April 13 2013 11: 22
      0
      Quote: Uneducable
      Of course it is better to buy in the west. In addition to air defense systems, we have nothing good.

      There was such a Falkle War, between Argentina and Great Britain, and so the Argentines had a large percentage of military import equipment failure, which is why, in fact, they were defeated in the war, and Soviet-Russian weapons are far from rubbish, they are just needed from time to time modernization and development of the new, which really can not organize modern power
      1. Gazprom
        Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 26
        -2
        so the Argentines had a large percentage of military import equipment failure, and therefore, in fact, they were defeated in the war,

        so that’s the reason, but I thought tactical and strategic mistakes, it’s clear that in Argentina, too, they all blamed on betrayal so that the general would not be punished laughing
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm April 13 2013 11: 47
          +1
          Quote: Gazprom
          I thought tactical and strategic mistakes

          Great Britain did not have the Nelsons in the Falkland War.
        2. ultra
          ultra April 13 2013 22: 58
          0
          Quote: Gazprom
          so this is the reason, but I thought tactical and strategic mistakes,
          This, of course, is not the reason, but the fact has taken place! hi
      2. Ineducable
        Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 31
        -3
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        Soviet-Russian weapons are far from trash

        In the 80s, yes, it was good. Suitable for war on a European theater. Now, in the era of local and counter-guerrilla wars, this technique is nothing but real useless trash without tasks. In the West, too, trash, but it is adapted to the current realities, and we still do not even have remote control of the machine gun on the T-72B, which, by the way, forms the basis of the tank fleet of the Russian Armed Forces.
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm April 13 2013 13: 08
          0
          Quote: Uneducable
          Suitable for war on a European theater.


          Remote control Russian industry, if desired, is able to create,
          I think the problem is that Russian government officials do not assume that their sons will control these tanks, and other people's sons are not particularly sorry. I would have done so, did not serve in the army, not a citizen, and you have no rights in the country.
          1. Ineducable
            Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 11
            -2
            Let's just say - this remote control was on the T-64, and on the T-80U (D), and it is on the T-90. Why it is not on the T-72B and why it is not stubbornly set during their modernization is a mystery.
    3. svp67
      svp67 April 13 2013 19: 08
      0
      Quote: Uneducable
      In addition, the 7.62x54r rifle cartridge with a rim that simply does not allow to make a full-fledged tape diet without crutches



      The history, and most importantly the successful use of a PC, contradicts your words ...
  • Gazprom
    Gazprom April 13 2013 10: 33
    -2
    weapons should be the best this time
    cheap, these are two, and whose it is already the third thing, we bought both under the tsar and under Stalin, do not be ashamed to buy technologies, we have already created our own school in the "late Soviet" ones, which did not interfere with carrying promising developments, and now it will not hurt, if not for rollback
    In any case, we are behind and we must catch up, including procurement.
    Lynx, drones, technology, specialists, all that is best must be bought, stolen, taken away.
    Oh, ultrapatriots will go broke!
  • mr.Net
    mr.Net April 13 2013 10: 39
    +2
    Quote: Uneducable
    Of course it is better to buy in the west. In addition to air defense systems, we have nothing good. Tanks - trash with flying towers, armored personnel carriers (and BMP-3) - trash from which it is impossible to safely and normally land, BMP and BMD-1/2 - just trash that falls apart on the go, machine guns in the troops are also a piece of trash from which and it’s scary to shoot, there’s no light machine gun like FN Minimi at all, the RPK-74 is written off due to its wretchedness and exchanged for PKM / PKP, which can’t be called light, besides, the rifle cartridge 7.62x54r with a rim that simply doesn’t make it high-grade tape nutrition without crutches. The list goes on and on, but the fact is a fact - the Russian army simply cannot survive without Western weapons.

    Well, ento, you got excited. The problem of our country is not in the peasants who can do anything and everything,
    and in those undergrowths that are in power. Eternally, it cannot continue like that.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 10: 42
      -5
      No, no, the problem is in the crooked handicraftsmen in design bureaus and factories, especially now, when instead of four design bureaus specializing in tanks, there is one thing. Monopolists are ready to hand over any rubbish to the military for an amount with a bunch of zeros and the military will take it - there is no choice.
      1. Gazprom
        Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 00
        -4
        Monopolists are ready to hand over any rubbish to the military for an amount with a bunch of zeros and the military will take it - there is no choice.

        I agree with this 100%
        True, this would be decided in the USSR by the shooting of 5-6 directors, but the current top managers of the country are not capable of such a step, and therefore are forced to purchase
  • AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 April 13 2013 10: 46
    +3
    I fundamentally believe that it is simply necessary to interact with foreigners on arms issues. You just need to watch promising developments not like Iveco (LYS) or a prodigy called F-22, but from what is a breakthrough and what we don’t have. This must be bought to copy and create a new Russian model of weapons with the best characteristics. What do not sell for it is intelligence.
    1. Gazprom
      Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 01
      -4
      development not of type Iveco (LYNX) but from what is a breakthrough and what we don’t have.

      Do we have a lightly armored four-wheel drive with automatic transmission?
      for us and Lynx breakthrough
      1. SPACE
        SPACE April 13 2013 11: 51
        +2
        Quote: Gazprom
        Do we have a lightly armored four-wheel drive with automatic transmission?

        With automatic transmission, you will carry your heifer to nature. Victims of Western propaganda and computer games, this is not a Game Over or a parquet jeep. Do not confuse your fantasies with reality.
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 54
          -5
          Victims of Western Propaganda

          It is better to be a victim of Western propaganda than a victim of Soviet propaganda.
          1. ultra
            ultra April 13 2013 14: 15
            +1
            Quote: Uneducable
            It is better to be a victim of Western propaganda than a victim of Soviet propaganda.
            It’s better not to be VICTIM at all — it sounds wretched! negative
            1. Ineducable
              Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 16
              -4
              That is yes. But still, the superiority of the West in technology cannot be hidden by any propaganda.
        2. Gazprom
          Gazprom April 13 2013 12: 01
          -2
          Quote: SPACE
          With automatic transmission, you will carry your heifer to nature. Victims of Western propaganda and computer games, this is not a Game Over or a parquet jeep. Do not confuse your fantasies with reality.

          EC ultrapatriotic imported something!
          A true patriot, he’s like that, even if a soldier with a wounded leg or his right hand switches gears and presses 4 pedals, no 6! if only not for new technologies.
          I even propose to go out to the rally-Hurray patriots against automatic transmission!
          And I also propose making 4 pedals and a lever force of 560 kg, removing all hydraulic boosters, and giving everyone a medal for all those who beat their fingers.
          True, I had a teacher at VTUZ, the head of the department developing an automatic machine for ZIL, just so that the wounded could successfully drive a car, but they didn’t have time, they destroyed the plant, well, that’s garbage, urapatriot for a parsky, for a cart ...
          1. SPACE
            SPACE April 13 2013 13: 13
            +2
            Have you ever taken apart automatic transmission and manual transmission yourself? Not a single self-respecting Jeeper planning a ride in the mountains or on the road will take a car with an automatic transmission, automatic transmission is for the city, but not for serious matters. I speak because I know myself and drive. As my boss says, women and homosexuals go with automatic transmission, this is not for men.
            Quote: Gazprom
            just so that the wounded could successfully drive a car

            Along the way, you don’t have an idea about the checkpoint in general, nor about hydro or electric amplifiers ... We should not think about the wounded man driving the tank, but about the fact that he would not be injured.
            1. Ineducable
              Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 16
              -4
              Quote: SPACE
              As my boss says, women and homosexuals go with automatic transmission, this is not for men

              Who cares what the boss says to you. Automatic transmission is well established at IVECO LMV during its operation by various European contingents.
              1. SPACE
                SPACE April 13 2013 13: 56
                +2
                I wonder where? he established himself laughing in the fight against the Papuans, next to the service station.
                1. Ineducable
                  Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 58
                  -5
                  Quote: SPACE
                  in the fight against the Papuans

                  And what does your red-faced relatives have to do with it? And where did your relatives have a STO?
                  1. SPACE
                    SPACE April 13 2013 14: 05
                    +3
                    Hear you Comanche Leader, deliver me from your bulletproof stupidity.
                    1. Ineducable
                      Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 07
                      -4
                      Take it easy. You are no longer on the palm tree.
            2. Gazprom
              Gazprom April 13 2013 13: 28
              -4
              Quote: SPACE
              Have you ever taken apart automatic transmission and manual transmission yourself? Not a single self-respecting Jeeper planning a ride in the mountains or on the road will take a car with an automatic transmission, automatic transmission is for the city, but not for serious matters. I speak because I know myself and drive.
              Yeah, I personally know 2 jeepers on the machine, they drive very well,
              For some reason, the "stupid scoops" and "stupid Americans" were concerned with the problem of the machine gun, we did not have time, otherwise we would have definitely rearmed ourselves on 131 with a machine gun, and KAMAZ would probably switch to the machine gun.
              amers managed, and rearmament and do not whine, and do not take off.
              Here, as always, "they clean guns with bricks"


              As my boss says, women and homosexuals go with automatic transmission, this is not for men.
              the boss is latent or just jealous? and in the war the chief will probably choose the cart too? or out of habit, pulling boots will climb to cut bridges like on an UAZ?

              Quote: SPACE
              Along the way, you don’t have an idea about the checkpoint in general, nor about hydro or electric amplifiers ... We should not think about the wounded man driving the tank, but about the fact that he would not be injured.

              you have? Congratulations. And after he was wounded, is he rubbish? Can he die?
              ps, again a relative in Kiev? where does the tank?
  • tanit
    tanit April 13 2013 10: 53
    +2
    Buying individual copies abroad is, of course, necessary. And to put into service, only your own. And then let the whole world yell that they stole .... They will stumble and rub off.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 10: 57
      -7
      Even if it is a quadrupod, like the MiG-29, og. Aircraft of the 80s with avionics of the 60s. I couldn’t work on land, I couldn’t work at the PTB, there was simply no nomenclature of weapons. No thanks, it's better to buy something tested in the west.
      1. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 11: 23
        +3
        Quote: Uneducable
        Even if it is a quadrupod, like the MiG-29, og. Aircraft of the 80s with avionics of the 60s. I couldn’t work on land, I couldn’t work at the PTB, there was simply no nomenclature of weapons. No thanks, it's better to buy something tested in the west.

        You should change your nickname to "INadequate"! negative
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 25
          -4
          Ie you do not deny the wretchedness of the MiG-29.
          1. ultra
            ultra April 13 2013 14: 20
            +1
            Quote: Uneducable
            Ie you do not deny the wretchedness of the MiG-29.
            I am not a specialist, in order to deny or affirm something, facts are needed! If you have, bring it! hi
            1. Ineducable
              Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 24
              -3
              Quote: ultra
              If you have, bring

              And you compare the MiG-29 (9-12) and Su-27С (Su-27P a little different opera - he went to the air defense aviation), compare the nomenclature of weapons, the price of the 90 year, ltkh, ttkh, and then ask yourself : why is the MiG-29 needed and what are its tasks.
              1. Odysseus
                Odysseus April 13 2013 18: 22
                +1
                Quote: Uneducable
                And you compare the MiG-29 (9-12) and the Su-27S (Su-27P is a slightly different opera - he went to air defense aviation), compare the nomenclature of weapons, the price for the 90th year, LTH, TTX, and then ask yourself : why is the MiG-29 needed and what are its tasks

                Uneducable, stop changing nicknames every day laughing
                The fact that you, as a fan of the Nazi henchmen from the ROA want to disguise it correctly.
                But for this you need to learn how to write more adequate posts.
              2. svp67
                svp67 April 13 2013 18: 45
                +1
                Quote: Uneducable
                And you compare the MiG-29 (9-12) and Su-27С (Su-27P a little different opera - he went to the air defense aviation), compare the nomenclature of weapons, the price of the 90 year, ltkh, ttkh, and then ask yourself : why is the MiG-29 needed and what are its tasks.


                The MiG-29 is a front-line fighter, it was supposed to conquer and maintain air superiority over the front line. In particular, with his onboard weapons, he could also support his troops, working on ground targets. So you in vain slander "29". Su27 twice as large and less maneuverable in relation to the MiG29
                1. Odysseus
                  Odysseus April 13 2013 19: 28
                  0
                  Quote: svp67
                  So you in vain slander "29". Su27 twice as large and less maneuverable in relation to the MiG29

                  Not quite so. When loading 50% of the fuel for the Su-27 into the BVD, they were equal. But there are many other nuances. And, of course, it is better to compare with a potential enemy, and not with your plane.
                2. Gregazov
                  Gregazov April 14 2013 14: 27
                  0
                  As for maneuverability, it’s somehow very bold. I saw a MiG-29 barrel with smoke at the parade. After him, inside the smoke, he made a barrel of Su-27. Something like that, dear.
              3. ultra
                ultra April 13 2013 23: 03
                0
                Quote: Uneducable
                why is the MiG-29 needed and what are its tasks.
                Light front-line fighter! hiIn our Lipetsk Aviation Center, in training battles, they brought down 29x on 27!
                1. Gregazov
                  Gregazov April 14 2013 14: 33
                  0
                  On tests, the A50 MiG29 was used to test the mode of withdrawal to the area of ​​the ground target. Flight at an altitude of 5000m. Speed ​​800 km / h. Distance from the point - 350 km. To my surprise, the pilots began to ask to put in the application the sign "landing with emergency fuel remaining" is possible. Something like this. This was only later, when the gargrot for kerosene was given with fuel, it became better, but it will still not be enough.
            2. Odysseus
              Odysseus April 13 2013 18: 27
              0
              Quote: ultra
              I am not a specialist, in order to deny or affirm something, facts are needed! If you have, bring it!

              Do not worry. What the Uneducable writes illiterate nonsense.
      2. mr.Net
        mr.Net April 13 2013 11: 28
        0
        What does the MiG-29 not like ?? The best aircraft in its class in 80-90gg.
        Just like Su-27. Indians fly and do not buzz
        1. Gazprom
          Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 35
          -5
          and now I will notice 2013
          What does not suit the T-34? best in class 40s :)
          ps, the Indians are going to fight with the United States?
          it’s normal against Pakistan
          and here we are, judging by the thoughts of this forum, not only gathered, but we’ll tear everything in the best weapon in the world in the years 60-70, 70-80, 80-90 ....
          PPS for comparison, how cell phones have changed by 5-10 years, and what place Russia occupies in a niche
          1. Waterfall
            Waterfall April 13 2013 14: 02
            -2
            Quote: Gazprom

            What does not suit the T-34? best in class 40s :)

            In your fantasies. In reality, Sherman is MUCH better.
          2. ultra
            ultra April 13 2013 23: 09
            0
            Quote: Gazprom
            but we’ll tear everything at the best in the world
            In your opinion, We should sprinkle "ashes" on our heads and bow to "Uncle Sam" or drown ourselves in grief! am
            1. Denis
              Denis April 14 2013 00: 29
              +1
              Quote: ultra
              ultra
              Do not feed the trolls, they are eating fat!
        2. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 37
          -8
          The fact that he is unsuccessful. Obviously, the scoops learned about the F-15 and F-16 programs, and wanted the same at home, but the MiG could not make a normal single-engine light fighter of the F-16 type, it turned out 9-12, which simply duplicated the tasks of the Su-27. Why two planes of an identical class with identical tasks in service - that is the question.
          1. SPACE
            SPACE April 13 2013 12: 00
            +1
            Obviously the amers learned about MIG-21 and MIG-25 and wanted the same ones and the f-16-15 appeared. For those who are not trained at all, and for the whole head of the flawed MIG-21, the most massive single-engine jet aircraft.
            1. Ineducable
              Ineducable April 13 2013 12: 06
              -4
              And the fact that the MiG-21, MiG-25 and F-16 are cars of different generations are trifles, yes.
              1. SPACE
                SPACE April 13 2013 12: 41
                +2
                What stupid person came up with the term different generations? The importance is not in the generations, but in the ability to carry out the task, and it does not matter how much fiber is in it. The presence of electronics, these are the properties endowed with this unit.
          2. ultra
            ultra April 13 2013 14: 22
            +1
            Quote: Uneducable
            MiG could not make a normal single-engine light fighter type F-16
            As far as I know, the task was precisely on a plane with two engines, as more tenacious! hi
            1. Waterfall
              Waterfall April 13 2013 14: 25
              -2
              As a result, it turned out, God knows what, which is not much cheaper than a normal Su-27. And with a meager radius, a "short-range fighter". But with 2 engines. Couldn't do F110-GE - just say so, don't excuse yourself.
              1. ultra
                ultra April 13 2013 23: 12
                0
                Quote: Wasserfall
                . Failed to do F110-GE - say so,
                Well, that the men could not do, let's drown ourselves in an entire site !!!! lol lol lol
              2. skeptic
                skeptic April 14 2013 00: 18
                0
                Quote: Wasserfall
                As a result, it turned out, God knows what, which is not much cheaper than a normal Su-27. And with a meager radius, a "short-range fighter". But with 2 engines. Couldn't do F110-GE - just say so, don't excuse yourself.


                So that's how NPOshniki Amerovka grandmas work out. Do not wash so skating. Guys do not load through these moral monsters. It doesn’t matter to them what if ... if only for more negative.
      3. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 13 2013 12: 37
        +1
        Quote: Uneducable
        No thanks, it's better to buy something tested in the west.

        What exactly, "Raptor", so "Raptor" and the allies, the Americans do not sell.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 11: 07
    +2
    Quote: Professor
    Your flag has said for you, and we will always prove the sorrow of the patriots about the superiority of our weapons with foam at the mouth and to the last drop of blood

    The flag is my irritant for cheers-patriots (not to be confused with true patriots) and having the opportunity to change it to any other, I decided to leave it. Some Russian weapons are superior to foreign ones, and some are behind. This is a harsh reality.

    I do not argue that some kind of weapon we have is outdated, but hurray-patriots, I believe, these are those who, in spite of everything, defend their Motherland, or maybe they are true patriots who love the Motherland with all its shortcomings, like a child loves his unfavorable rollers, and not those "patriots" such as stools who, as it were, for the benefit of buying weapons abroad? Think about it at your leisure! Although I think this is not given to you.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 13: 33
      -1
      Hurray patriots, I believe, are those who defend their homeland no matter what

      These are those who primarily hate everything not their own and all strangers.
      1. skeptic
        skeptic April 14 2013 10: 19
        0
        Quote: Professor
        Hurray patriots, I believe, are those who defend their homeland no matter what

        These are those who primarily hate everything not their own and all strangers.


        Oh, so that's who you professor is! Hooray - Israeli patriot. Well then, your raids on everything Russian are quite understandable.
  • Standard Oil
    Standard Oil April 13 2013 11: 08
    +3
    To begin with, we will start buying weapons in the West, and then someone will tell us that our soldiers are bad, let's invite good ones, for example, American ones, let's call it, it seems in the 90s we were told that Soviet weapons were supposedly Mr., but the Americans themselves at the first opportunity, big leaps rushed all the technical documentation to steal and buy wherever possible and impossible. Well, and finally speaking about the Eternal, it was the "shitty" T-34s that ended up in front of the Reichstag, and not "first-class" tigers or panthers of all sorts on Red Square.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 12
      -7
      Quote: Standard Oil
      "shitty" t-34

      They spammed all of Europe. Zerg rush in Soviet.
      1. mr.Net
        mr.Net April 13 2013 11: 48
        +2
        Someone spammed this brain for you.
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 11: 53
          -7
          My brain is fine, don’t worry. As for the T-34, there was simply no quality and production culture, all for the sake of mass production. And the average life time of the T-34 on the battlefield was 15 minutes, at the 16th minute the tank (often together with the crew) was burning fun. So yes, spam.
          1. mr.Net
            mr.Net April 13 2013 12: 15
            +1
            What are you talking about ??? Our industry worked with wheels, under
            open air, in the rain, in the mud in the steppes beyond the Urals. Hungry teenagers, women fell from starvation standing at the machine tools for 14 hours. They actually built these tanks with their bare hands. What kind of production culture are you talking about ??
            Apparently, you really were not taught to respect your history, your ancestors. People like you have no homeland, no country, and there is no future.
            1. Ineducable
              Ineducable April 13 2013 12: 23
              -6
              Quote: mr.Net
              Apparently, you really weren’t taught to respect your history, your ancestors
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 11: 43
    +2
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    Quote: Prapor Afonya
    Your flag said for you

    The flag means that most likely a person lives in Israel, that he is most likely a Jew, but this does not mean that he is a believer, which the professor tried to explain.

    Come on belay And then I did not guess. Here, the conversation didn’t really talk about faith, but about whether Russia should buy equipment abroad, and a person living not in Russia, but in a country that made its own Galil on the basis of our AK, says that our weapons are good.
    1. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm April 13 2013 12: 54
      +2
      Quote: Prapor Afonya
      Well, you, dear Jew, will certainly prove everything against Russia!

      A Jew is a Jew who believes in God.
      In fact, the professor did not claim that our weapons were wow ... but, he argued that there was a lag in some areas.
      Quote: Prapor Afonya
      and in the country which, on the basis of our AK, made its own Galil

      The Israelis learn a lot, adopt and, on equipping various weapons, do their own thing, very effective, the USSR did.
      1. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 23: 16
        0
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        In fact, the professor did not claim that our weapons were wow ... but, he argued that there was a lag in some areas.
        Unlike some "ours" and "not ours," he is an adequate person! PS But sometimes he is "carried over" too!
        hi
  • Genady1976
    Genady1976 April 13 2013 11: 57
    +1
    Weapons for our country must be made by ourselves and no foreign partner will help us with this.
  • Gazprom
    Gazprom April 13 2013 11: 58
    -1
    Quote: SPACE
    With automatic transmission, you will carry your heifer to nature. Victims of Western propaganda and computer games, this is not a Game Over or a parquet jeep. Do not confuse your fantasies with reality.

    EC ultrapatriotic imported something!
    A true patriot, he’s like that, even if a soldier with a wounded leg or his right hand switches gears and presses 4 pedals, no 6! if only not for new technologies.
    I even propose to go out to the rally-Hurray patriots against automatic transmission!
    And I also propose making 4 pedals and a lever force of 560 kg, removing all hydraulic boosters, and giving everyone a medal for all those who beat their fingers.
  • Canep
    Canep April 13 2013 12: 06
    +1
    To buy weapons abroad, having a powerful military industry, is idiocy. And the most significant lag in the field of microelectronics can be made up by purchasing technology, equipment, and inviting specialists. For all this, you can turn to the Chinese.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 12: 10
      -7
      Quote: Canep
      powerful military industry

      Which specializes in industrial riveting. We will never make normal tanks with normal automatic loaders in the rear of the turret (like the Korean K2 and French Leclerc), we will never have a normal armored personnel carrier with an exit in the stern, we will never have a normal automatic machine with balanced automation, we will there will never be unitary shells in the tank, because the damn 2A46 cannot in them, and we cannot give birth to another gun. We will never have many things.
      1. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 14: 27
        +2
        Quote: Uneducable
        we will never have normal
        Another victim of "ECHO OF MOSCOW" and "RAIN", they strongly influence fragile minds! negative
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 29
          -3
          You can refute, or are you so, crowed do not care?
          1. ultra
            ultra April 13 2013 23: 21
            0
            Quote: Uneducable
            You can refute, or are you so, crowed do not care?

            And you need it! fellow
      2. Suhov
        Suhov April 13 2013 19: 21
        0
        Quote: Uneducable
        ... we will never have ... we will never have ... we will never have ... we will never have ...

        You are stuck, Dear!
        wassat
  • Kars
    Kars April 13 2013 12: 10
    +6
    Is it better to buy weapons abroad or equip the Russian army with domestic weapons?


    The question is honestly stupid.
    Any country wants to equip its army with weapons of its own production. The only question is whether it can.
    The Russian Federation, as one of the largest countries, MUST equip its aircraft with its own weapons.
    BUT, in this case, one cannot refuse the possibility of purchasing LICENSES both for the weapon itself and for the Production Technology.
  • mr.Net
    mr.Net April 13 2013 12: 23
    +1
    Quote: Uneducable
    Quote: Canep
    powerful military industry

    Which specializes in industrial riveting. We will never make normal tanks with normal automatic loaders in the rear of the turret (like the Korean K2 and French Leclerc), we will never have a normal armored personnel carrier with an exit in the stern, we will never have a normal automatic machine with balanced automation, we will there will never be unitary shells in the tank, because the damn 2A46 cannot in them, and we cannot give birth to another gun. We will never have many things.

    Set of bullshit. Read books, who was the first in the world to make an automatic loader
    further no comments
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 12: 38
      -3
      Quote: mr.Net
      who made the first automatic charging machine in the world

      On the tank? The French and their towers who swayed.
      1. family tree
        family tree April 13 2013 13: 42
        +2
        12 rounds. Insolently, the Germans slammed with Henschel-129b with VK-7,5 guns. They made a drum revolver.
      2. mr.Net
        mr.Net April 13 2013 13: 49
        +2
        the first AZ was on the T-64
        the French had a semiautomatic device
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 51
          -3
          Do not tell tales. The French on the AMX-13 had exactly that automatic loader. There was no smell of semi-automatic equipment and there was no Negro in the carriage.
  • gorkoxnumx
    gorkoxnumx April 13 2013 12: 23
    +2
    To buy domestic weapons or foreign? I think the answer suggests itself and this answer is of course Russian and do not pay attention to whether it is better or worse. Just a security issue.
    1. ultra
      ultra April 13 2013 14: 31
      +1
      Quote: gorko83
      Russian and do not pay attention to the fact that it is better or worse
      We need to buy ours, this is indisputable, but also pay attention to the best foreign analogues hi
  • AntonR7
    AntonR7 April 13 2013 12: 23
    +1
    Of course, you need to develop your industry, and not invest in a potential enemy.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 12: 45
      -6
      We will fight in shit, but in our shit. Like grandfathers.
      1. sashka
        sashka April 13 2013 14: 45
        0
        Quote: Uneducable
        We will fight in shit, but in our shit. Like grandfathers.

        Wrong. Don't die “like grandfathers.” The message itself is wrong. Grandfathers did not die for nothing or for "you live great." There was an IDEA, there was a sense. What's the point now? Save someone's deposits in Cyprus? and
        die for it.?
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm April 13 2013 16: 29
          +1
          Quote: Sasha
          There was an IDEA, there was a MEANING. What is the point now? Save someone's deposits in Cyprus? Is it to die.?

          Those who lose their deposits in Cyprus before the outbreak of hostilities will remain ordinary men, their parents, wives and children. If you don’t fight, then poorly educated African-Americans and Latinos will come and will do whatever they want at our place.
          So there is something to die for.
      2. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 23: 23
        0
        Quote: Uneducable
        We will fight in shit, but in our shit. Like grandfathers.
        Well, you will not be! hi
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus April 13 2013 12: 52
    0
    And on the basis of what, the conclusion is made that our weapons are the best? The same Krasnopol-2. A healthy guiding bandura stands nearby. Recall the kamikaze gunner ... And the rest of the weapon was not tested in real combat. In 08, we fought rodents with old tanks. Because they are tested in battle. Tanks, not rodents. In short, all hurt yourself, only at the PR level.
    1. mr.Net
      mr.Net April 13 2013 13: 33
      +1
      Yes, no one claims that it is the best. We have been treading water for 20 years.
      Buy abroad? Probably only with whom? To do this, we need to determine the potential enemy. We have NATO in the west, in the east
      Japan, China, the south of the Taliban. Remains only in Brazil, or South Africa laughing .We are not Saudi Arabia - not US puppets, so sooner or later
      do everything ourselves. Something worthy will not be sold to us. All modern
      technology (less than 60nm, more than 13GHz) no one will sell is a taboo for sale everywhere. Therefore, it is pointless to swipe money into someone else's day before yesterday.
      1. Ineducable
        Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 34
        -5
        Quote: mr.Net
        Probably only with whom?

        In France. They will sell us anything.
        1. mr.Net
          mr.Net April 13 2013 13: 50
          0
          So are you French ?? clear..
        2. family tree
          family tree April 13 2013 13: 50
          +2
          They already sold, at the beginning of the twentieth century. How did it end? 1905, 1914, 1917. Then, on the cut, too, some profited.
          1. Ineducable
            Ineducable April 13 2013 13: 54
            -4
            One ability of your breed strikes me: to search for cuts where they are not.
            1. family tree
              family tree April 13 2013 14: 35
              +3
              But I am not struck by the peculiarity of your breed, skip off the topic and leave the answer, because I’m already used to it. Instead of investing in our industry, we start buying abroad, then we get into debt, then these debts oblige us to get into a war, which requires weapons, which, again, need money, again debt and in a circle, and then, bang, a revolution happens, and now the debtors are killed, and the debts remain, you can’t shoot them.
  • mogus
    mogus April 13 2013 12: 57
    +1
    resolve the question: do you believe that Siberia should also be given to external management?
  • воронов
    воронов April 13 2013 13: 03
    +1
    Arm exclusively domestic weapons soldier
  • Justme
    Justme April 13 2013 13: 27
    +6
    You need to start with the problem - in our military-industrial complex a mess.
    The basis of the problem is that often top executives even at the enterprise level want to live with a very small degree of responsibility for actual results (.. and recall the late scoop).

    When we talk about the results of Korolev, Yangel, .. - you can start with the fact that they are primarily graduates of the Bauman Moscow Technical University - and they were the center of the technocratic scheme of their research institutes and enterprises .. They and the like - gave results and could give them .. (.. and were responsible for this).

    When I came to SKB Fakel in 1983, then the ministry put a Convenient Person from the serial plant as Chief Designer ... Well, which of him was a designer, .. a brain engine ..? As a result, communication "above" was distinguished by complex undercover games and was essentially a get-together ...
    On the other hand, the growing worthlessness of leadership leads to a sharp increase in the bureaucratic component at all stages of design and debugging.
    The top apparently does not understand that the growth of the Himalayas of any bureaucratic d * * * can bury anything and anyone, any good undertakings ..
    Moreover - bureaucratic involvement (even in technology) is often a secretive dirty tool of the public with pathological inclinations ..

    Now is the present.
    Who did Roscosmos appoint us as the General Director at NIIFI?
    This is the son of the mayor of Baikonur. The problem is sharply aggravated by the fact that the Deputy for Science is the same thieves but already from the locals. And then we have in the research institute at the top a layer of the same public which is using the technology of no-boom-boom. And all this has been done because now there are large cash flows and ordinary techies are not allowed to this level.

    What about the results?
    A simple example. About three or four years ago, the Diagnostics program began (creation of equipment for debugging rocket technology). And half a year ago I accidentally got to a closed reporting exhibition for some commission ... There, a significant part of the equipment was an import on which the "Made by us" tags were glued with VK-9 glue ...
    And the fact that from what was presented was still done, we had an unpleasant hidden property - it did not pass electromagnetic compatibility and stability tests (tests were usually falsified ..)

    If you look at the problem in a constructive manner, of course there are a lot of questions, but technicians who have resources (by the way, very small compared to what is currently being allocated in general) and rights (all the mountains of these GOSTs, should work for them). OST-s, regulations and their absurdity - in the furnace ..)
    1. Gazprom
      Gazprom April 13 2013 15: 03
      -4
      and now we read the mantra "only ours, only ours" - we are waiting for the Martians and everything will be fine,
      1. Justme
        Justme April 13 2013 17: 48
        +1
        No, my friend, here I do not agree.
        As far as I understand, our colleagues in Israel are doing a bunch of military and paramilitary equipment on the Industrial Grade kit and are not so worried that there is no Made in Is tag on everything.
        I think - we need the same thing but make our final product.
        The main thing is to maintain and increase the potential and good form of the developers ..
  • fenix57
    fenix57 April 13 2013 14: 07
    +3
    Quote: Uneducable
    Of course it is. NATO is a large and friendly family of white people. It is better to be friends with white than with Nigro on the palm as loved scoops.

    And who, yes, YOU DOES NOT allow you to go to the NATO troops (under the contract)? And what do you mean by the phrase "big and friendly family", isn't it:
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 10
      -6
      I have a suspicion that you are a latent homosexual. Attaching this photoshop to your post - you only once again confirm this.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 14: 29
    +1
    Our weapons are outdated, it's time for our weapons to landfill in history, and still this does not stop us from destroying a bunch of ultra-modern tanks, planes and manpower every day with our weapons!
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 36
      -4
      a bunch of ultra-modern tanks

      That is one and a half Abrams in the M1A1 version.
      aircraft

      Ie hitting the ancient "Hornet" from a slingshot.
      and manpower

      Ie shooting somewhere there.
  • Bezarius
    Bezarius April 13 2013 14: 46
    +1
    To buy equipment in which we are lagging behind the hill, to master the technology, and take into account the development of our equipment. Obviously?
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 47
      -3
      We are only lagging behind in everything except air defense.
      1. Waterfall
        Waterfall April 13 2013 14: 54
        -1
        But what about the Strategic Missile Forces (except for the marine component)?
        1. Ineducable
          Ineducable April 13 2013 14: 57
          -3
          I forgot. Yes, I have to admit, our Strategic Rocket Forces are better than their counterparts from our overseas partners.
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 13 2013 17: 45
        +4
        Quote: Uneducable
        We are only lagging behind in everything except air defense.

        Everything happens to them too, do not create idols for yourself
    2. Gazprom
      Gazprom April 13 2013 15: 00
      -4
      no, it's not obvious, urapatrtons will go out of their way if we buy at least something, because we ourselves have all the best, it was ... 20 years ago ...
      despite the fact that if we don’t do it now, we’ll lag behind for another 50 years
      1. Ineducable
        Ineducable April 13 2013 15: 03
        -4
        Therefore, it is better not to do anything and buy nishtyaki in the west. And the money that could be spent on emptiness and on useless, hassle-free R&D was sent to social programs.
  • RoTTor
    RoTTor April 13 2013 15: 06
    -3
    They still do not understand why the An-70 is a deliberately dead project?
    In addition, this is a “third freshness” project in the homeland
    Ukraine has no market for this car and cannot be.
    Abroad - even more so. Especially if there is no experience of its mass exploitation.
    The only copy - urgently to the aviation museum, until it was ditched.
    And do not fool your head neither yourself nor others. And do not use the unlucky An-70 as a smoke screen for their frauds.
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 15: 09
      -3
      Quote: RoTTor
      They still do not understand why the An-70 is a deliberately dead project?

      Got it. He has no tasks. In addition, there is IL-476, whose supplies to the Air Force are not dependent on Urkaini.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 16: 01
    0
    [quote = Uneducable] [quote] a bunch of cutting-edge tanks [/ quote]
    That is one and a half Abrams in the M1A1 version.
    [quote] aircraft [/ quote]
    Yeah, you definitely need to change your nickname to inadequate, and the flag you have is in the wrong country, because you live in America, so check the box of your favorite NATO or star-mattress!
    1. Ineducable
      Ineducable April 13 2013 16: 03
      -2
      Quote: Prapor Afonya
      you live in america

      You say so, as if in Russia there are no pro-Western people.
      1. old rocket man
        old rocket man April 13 2013 23: 01
        +2
        Quote: Uneducable
        Quote: Prapor Afonya
        you live in america

        You say so, as if in Russia there are no pro-Western people.


        There is still, but will not be soon, we will deduce them with dichlorvos laughing
  • savastyanov
    savastyanov April 13 2013 16: 24
    +1
    For the Russian army you need only Russian weapons !!!
  • stranik72
    stranik72 April 13 2013 17: 08
    +4
    Quote: Professor
    The military-industrial complex has nothing to do with the collapse of the USSR

    Even as it has. Empty store shelves forgotten?

    Empty store shelves, why would it suddenly be, and when your fellow tribesmen brought power to the green, it was organized by you and with your participation, and earlier no one died of hunger the quality of the products is not comparable to the present. We slept, it was not the military-industrial complex that was a problem, but it was too international, forgot the 17th year and who arranged it, you had to help your brother a Jew from the country since 1972, and not try to leave you if you have a homeland, and Israel is your homeland for you , then on the rest of the earth you will only crap. A fully explainable action. So, la-la, about the military-industrial complex of the USSR, tell us in our highway we know whom we owe and to whom we owe.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 13 2013 19: 20
      0
      was organized by you and with your participation

      Tell me, where can I get my share from the plunder of Russia and the collapse of the USSR. wink
      1. Ezhaak
        Ezhaak April 13 2013 19: 56
        -2
        Quote: Professor
        Tell me, where can I get my share from the plunder of Russia and the collapse of the USSR.

        There, in Israel. How many thieves are hiding from extradition to Russia. Demand from them, since you protect them.
        By the way? and how long have you been living there?
        1. Professor
          Professor April 13 2013 20: 34
          +1
          There, in Israel. How many thieves are hiding from extradition to Russia.

          I know only about one Yukos, the rest, if there is one, does not hide at all, and Russia does not require their extradition.

          and how long have you been living there?

          In the West for a long time, in Israel, too, a lot.
          1. Ezhaak
            Ezhaak April 13 2013 20: 46
            0
            Quote: Professor
            In the West for a long time, in Israel, too, a lot.

            I believe these words even with my eyes closed. Unlike some of the ones you said in the same topic. On the search for turners. I thought it was more like an Israeli problem. Thank you for your honesty. Happy to stay. Further, I am not interested in you.
            As they say, it’s best not to feed the troll. Sorry if something is wrong
      2. ultra
        ultra April 13 2013 23: 29
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        Tell me, where can I get my share from the plunder of Russia and the collapse of the USSR.
        PROFESSOR WE and YOU are late! EVERYTHING has already been stolen before us! hi
  • Chukcha
    Chukcha April 13 2013 17: 36
    +1
    The question in the title is initially incorrect.
    Any country at the level of Russia or the level of Ukraine will make its own weapons. However, this does not mean at all refusing to purchase foreign samples, at least for comparison and analysis. It is useful from many points of view, I will not list. Of course, everything has limits, and it is not necessary to bring the situation to insanity.
  • waisson
    waisson April 13 2013 19: 09
    +1
    what are you talking about developing the military-industrial complex, abandoning cheap exports and wringing your minds at perfecting new equipment and weapons, buying equipment with a cardon, we get old proven technologies, do you really consider yourself a country of the 3rd grade
  • Kir
    Kir April 13 2013 19: 37
    +1
    In order not to get into a general squabble, dear professor, you are both right and wrong with regard to especially pure chemistry, but you ordered from Japan, with machine tools, not everything is so simple, as they say, you don't know what to break through the bureaucratic wall, oh, how difficult it is , besides, very few people, especially at the end of the USSR, from the heads of production, introduce radical innovations, by the way, given that it seems like from Ukraine, they should at least hear that the same Tavria even under Leonid Brezhnev could be mass-produced , and saw her serial when? For machines and equipment, the same was developed, including those that had no analogues, but the same, on the one hand, well-oiled production. salaries. plan. and then there are risks, on the other hand, the policy is buying from others in exchange for loyalty and something else. With regards to the same quality. interesting and then for what are the same Swiss and Japanese bought our "clockwork", only asked not to brand? As for what you ordered from them, you should be more familiar with the deep-sea equipment. including the same Italian-made bathyscaphes Octopus, and Miras, though according to our drawings, were made in Norway. But now what was possible during the Soviet era was unlikely to be repeated in purchases, then there were specialists in purchases, although there was enough shit in foreign trade, but they were even so brazenly afraid, but now? Regarding the undermining of the economy, the loyalty and love of a number of "friends" to the USSR were rather expensive, and the top, without total control of the times of the cult, gradually began to become more impudent ........, but the defense industry is just this working out how it is now fashionable to express "breakthrough technologies" in harsh conditions, in order to then become partially civil.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 13 2013 19: 38
    0
    Quote: Uneducable
    Quote: Prapor Afonya
    you live in america

    You say so, as if in Russia there are no pro-Western people.

    Yes, you are full of traitors who are ready to sell Mother Russia not a snuff of tobacco: Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Chubais, Serdyukov, you can list these things for a long time, or maybe you can all be blamed to the West, Westerners and not trample Russia, and it will be good for us, and you somehow it will be, the professor has dumped him in Israel and now p .... t because of the mound about what a cool Israeli weapon, or maybe we can decide what we need without you in our homeland?
  • Max otto
    Max otto April 13 2013 19: 42
    +1
    You carry some crap here, to buy, not to buy. Turn on the MOCC, whoever has it, when a grandiose racket begins (according to the old-mode WAR, I wrote so that the modern-day people understand) the winner will be the one who can make up for his losses and increase the amount of weapons, and that’s all. Well, what's the point now to discuss?
    And my father - a tanker, went from a mechanic drive to the head of the combat training department of the army headquarters said the following: when a land mine exploded next to a tank, all these pribluda on microcircuits had to be thrown out. So the most modern does not mean the best. Remember the T-34, yes, the tank is actually a "guano", but cheap and simple, at one time it turned out more than out of order, well, who won?
  • Strashila