False victories and false heroes

During the Great Patriotic War, Soviet naval sailors made a significant contribution to our common Victory. However, in stories Many myths and even falsifications arose during the war at sea. Images of false heroes were created, and the real heroes remained unknown. Let us dwell on just a few episodes of the creation of false heroes.

Baltic submarine fleet L-3 was considered one of the most successful submarines of the Soviet fleet, it was credited with sinking 22 transports and 5 ships. But in reality, its successes were much more modest. Confirmed victories: 1 German ship (transport "Goya") and 1 neutral Swedish transport were sunk by torpedoes; 2 German transports were sunk by mines laid by the submarine. The total tonnage of these ships was 19 GRT. Possible victories of the submarine include 772 German transports, 3 Swedish tanker and 1 German sailing and motor schooners (a total of 3 GRT). In this case, 3693 torpedoes were used.

Model L-3 (A.I. Marinesko Museum)

One of the L-3 commanders P.D. Grishchenko

Things are even worse with the Northern Fleet's D-3 Krasnogvardeets submarine, which received the titles of Guards and Red Banner. It was credited with sinking three enemy transports and one tanker. But in fact, it failed to achieve a single victory.

Model D-3 (A.I. Marinesko Museum)

In the book by L.A. Yemelyanov “Soviet submarines in the Great Patriotic War” (Voenizdat, 1981) he wrote:

"On July 14 (1941), Senior Lieutenant N.G. Stolbov's Shch-402 repeated the actions of Shch-401, entering the Honningsvag harbor (Magere Island)... Having discovered the enemy transport, Shch-402 approached it to within 4 cables and launched 2 torpedoes. The explosion was clearly visible through the periscope, the transport heeled over and soon sank. Without being pursued, the submarine left the harbor."

In fact, the attacked transport "Hanau" was not hit, and one of the torpedoes ran ashore and was used by the Germans for study.

The same book claims that in the first three months of 1942, Northern Fleet submarines destroyed 34 enemy transports. But only 12 ships and vessels have been confirmed to have been sunk.

Captain 3rd rank N. A. Lunin, commanding the submarine "Shch-421" of the Northern Fleet, carried out 1941 combat missions from June 1942 to February 5, carrying out 7 torpedo attacks on enemy ships and vessels. According to his statements, "Shch-421" sank 7 enemy transports with a total displacement of 49 thousand tons (fantastic accuracy). For this, N. A. Lunin was nominated for the title of Hero of the Soviet Union, and the submarine "Shch-421" was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. However, the sinking of only one vessel is confirmed - the German steamship "Konsul Schulte" (2975 GRT).

N.A. Lunin

On March 4, 1942, Lunin took command of the large submarine K-21. And again a series of victorious reports. He carried out 7 combat missions on this ship, carried out 13 torpedo attacks, reported the sinking of 10 German ships, and laid several dozen mines. In addition, he reported a torpedo attack and damage to the battleship Tirpitz.

Submarine "K-21"

In the book by V.M. Mostseev, M.I. Khametov, L.A. Vlasov, I.N. Revenko “In the Cold Depths” (Voenizdat, 1980) it is written:

"At two o'clock on July 9, the K-21 entered its home harbor. It was met by the fleet commander, the brigade command, and the crews of the submarines stationed at the base. Captain 2nd Rank Lunin and Commissar Senior Political Instructor Lysov reported on the attack on the Tirpitz. Vice-Admiral Golovko warmly congratulated them and the entire valiant crew on their remarkable victory and reported that the K-21's torpedoes had forced the fascist squadron to retreat back to the Norwegian skerries and had put the battleship out of action for a long time."

In fact, all four of Lunin's torpedoes missed their target, as they were used at a distance exceeding their range, and the Germans did not even notice this attack. It is also interesting to note that the K-21's logbook was forged.

Battleship Tirpitz

Reconstruction of the attack on the Tirpitz by the submarine K-21

In reality, while commanding the K-21, Lunin only achieved one victory, and that was over defenseless Norwegian fishermen. This is how it is described in the book In the Frozen Depths:

"Then on April 12, Lunin led the boat to break through to the German naval base in Northern Norway - the port of Hartstadt. Having discovered the motorboat, the K-21 surfaced. There were several more motorboats in the area under fascist flags. Artillery The submarine sank four of them with fire. Before that, their crews were given the opportunity to get into the boats. The submariners took the crew off the fifth motorboat."

This is all a complete lie. In reality, these were the motorboats “Frøy”, “Havegga”, “Baren” and “Øistein” engaged in fishing, flying Norwegian flags and with Norwegian crews. “K-21” fired at the motorboats with a 100 mm cannon, and their crews shot at them with small arms. weapons, in which Lunin personally participated.

The report of the head of the political department of the submarine brigade, Captain 2nd Rank Boldyrev, stated:

"The commander made the decision to sink the fishing boats while drunk. The commander's further actions were nervous. The commander demanded that the PPSh be brought to the bridge, and he himself began to shoot at the fishermen, but since the PPSh was not set to automatic, the commander could only fire one shot, and Lunin was unable to switch it to automatic fire, so the commander began to use foul language and reproaches towards the gunners on the bridge: "Why are you being fed bread?"

Lunin reported four sunken motorboats. According to the Norwegians, one was sunk (Frøy, 40 GRT) and two were damaged, nine fishermen were killed and several more were wounded. The entire crew of one of the motorboats – seven people – were forced to go to the boat at gunpoint. They were taken to the shore, where three of them died in Soviet camps.

At this time, Red Navy sailor Alexey Labutin was washed overboard. The boat's commander did not take all necessary measures to save him, considering him drowned. Labutin was picked up by the motorboat "Baren" and taken to a Norwegian village, where he was handed over to the German occupation authorities and placed in a concentration camp.

Right after the war, Labutin wrote a letter to his former commander, asking why he had not been saved, abandoned to his fate. Lunin did not answer, and Labutin carried the grudge throughout his life. Only in the early 90s did he come to the Northern Fleet. He told journalists with tears in his eyes about how he floundered in the sea, and the boat went further and further.

The incident provided ample fodder for German propaganda and the Norwegian newspapers controlled by the Nazis, who accused the Bolsheviks of inhumanity. "They ignored all the cries for help from drowning and wounded Norwegians, and even abandoned their own comrade to his fate," wrote the Oslo newspaper "Nationen." The Germans provided medical and material assistance to the victims and relatives of the dead, and laid wreaths on the graves.

In 1979, the captain of the motorboat Havegga, Alfred Alver, described the behavior of the K-21 crew to a correspondent from the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten:

"It was a sadistic game that the submarine captain enjoyed. That is my opinion. We repeatedly asked the Soviet authorities for an explanation. We never received any answer. There was not even a simple apology... If I met that Russian submarine captain again, I would stab him, even if we met in a church."

Motorboat “Øistein” (right)

The "hero submariner" A. I. Marinesko, who emerged on the turbid waves of perestroika, was not above falsifying his facts either. On August 14, 1942, as the commander of the M-96, he attacked the SAT 4 Helene floating battery (400 BRT) that was part of a convoy. The torpedo missed, but the commander of the "baby" reported the sinking of a 7000-ton transport. The "sinking" of the transport was worthily rewarded: the commander of the M-96 was awarded the Order of Lenin and was promoted to captain of the 3rd rank. Marinesko was again accepted as a candidate for the party (he was excluded from the candidates in October 1941 "for systematic drunkenness, for the collapse of discipline, for the lack of educational work among the personnel...").

A.I. Marinesko

On October 9, 1944, Marinesko, commanding the S-13, attacked the single fishing trawler Siegfried (563 GRT) with four torpedoes, but missed. The boat surfaced and fired 39 100-mm and 15 45-mm shells at the enemy. Marinesko announced the sinking of a 5000-ton armed transport, but the trawler was only damaged. Nevertheless, the "hero submariner" was again awarded - this time with the Order of the Red Banner.

Submarine "C-13"

But Marinesko became famous for the “attack of the century” – the sinking of the transport “Wilhelm Gustloff”, as well as “Steuben”, with a total tonnage of 40 GRT.

On January 30, 1945, in the Southern Baltic, the S-13 sank the Wilhelm Gustloff (25 GRT) with three torpedoes, which was escorting the only destroyer with a non-working hydroacoustic station. The enemy did not pursue the submarine, but the logbook contained entries about an innumerable number of enemy ships that dropped 484-13 depth charges on the S-250.

"Wilhelm Gustlow" at the Gotenhafen pier during the evacuation

Soviet propaganda did not lag behind Marinesko. It turns out that high-ranking Nazi bigwigs, SS men, and most importantly, “about 3700 officers and submarine specialists” were evacuated on board the Wilhelm Gustloff.

The myth of 3700 submariners (including 100 submarine commanders) and thousands of high-ranking SS officers and Nazi bigwigs was savored in the Soviet press for decades. They even went so far as to say that the attack by the S-13 saved England from defeat, since the submariners from the Gustloff were supposedly supposed to man the crews of the super-new submarines capable of bringing Britain to its knees. And this was in January 1945, when the effectiveness of German submarines was practically zero, and the Reich itself was already in its death throes! Among the 406 naval sailors who died on board the Wilhelm Gustloff, there were only 4 officers of the ship's service, and the overwhelming majority of the rest were cadets who had only completed a basic training course and were not yet fit for service on combat submarines.

In fact, there were 10 people on board the liner (582 died):

There are 2 servicemen in the 918nd training division of the Navy
Marinehelferinnen (women of the auxiliary naval units) - 373
Crew - 173
Wounded - 162
Refugees - 8.

At the same time, the media admiringly called the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff "the attack of the century," and Marinesko - submariner number one. And this about the attack on a ship that was following a straight course at a moderate speed, with navigation lights on and symbolic protection.

Scheme of maneuvering of the S-13 during the attack on the Wilhelm Gustloff

Marinesko's next victory was the sinking of the medical transport Steuben on February 10, which was escorted by a destroyer and a torpedo boat. In Marinesko's reports, the transport was transformed into a light cruiser, escorted by three destroyers.

Sanitary transport "Steuben"

Thanks to the efforts of domestic propagandists, the Steuben was transformed into a troop transport with 3000 tankers, traveling from Courland to help Berlin, and then into an auxiliary cruiser.

In fact, there were 4267 people on board the transport (659 were rescued):
• 2800 wounded
• 800 refugees
• 100 armed soldiers
• 282 medical workers
• 64 anti-aircraft gunners
• 61 naval specialists (communications specialists, signalmen)
• 160 members of the civilian team.

But let's not touch on the moral aspects of this case. After all, Marinesko could not have known about the composition of the passengers of the Gustloff and the Steuben.

As a result of this campaign, “for the sinking of a liner with 3700 submariners and a light cruiser,” Marinesko was nominated for the title of Hero of the Soviet Union, but, given his past sins, he was awarded only the Order of the Red Banner.

Later, his activities became the subject of a party investigation and Marinesko was charged with fraud, lying, etc.

On October 14, 1945, the People's Commissar of the USSR Navy N. G. Kuznetsov signed the following order:

"For negligent attitude to official duties, systematic drunkenness and domestic debauchery, the commander of the Red Banner submarine S-13 of the Red Banner submarine brigade of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet, Captain 3rd Rank Aleksandr Ivanovich Marinesko, is to be removed from his post, demoted in military rank to senior lieutenant and placed at the disposal of the Military Council of the same fleet.
Admiral of the Fleet Kuznetsov."

In the first post-war years, based on reports compiled from the reports of ship commanders, it followed that submarines alone sank more than 400 ships. But in fact, the loss of only 127 enemy ships was confirmed. Thus, in the Northern Fleet, the number of successful torpedo attacks according to submarine commanders' reports was 223, but of these, only 35 (13,5%) were confirmed. The data are based on the research materials of M.E. Morozov.

The situation is similar with the victories of Soviet torpedo boats. Thus, it was claimed that on August 19, 1944 alone, during an attack on a convoy at Cape Kibergnes by boats of the Northern Fleet, the enemy lost 12 transports and escort ships. In fact, 1 German transport (the former Soviet Volgoles) and 1 patrol ship (an armed trawler) were sunk.

On October 12 of the same year, torpedo boats attacked an enemy convoy off the Norwegian coast, claiming to have sunk two transports and damaged one. In fact, one minesweeper (M-303) was sunk.

The pilots were not far behind them. Thus, on October 14, 1944 aviation The Northern Fleet attacked a German convoy in the Tanafjord area. It was reported that two transports, a minesweeper and a patrol ship had been sunk. In fact, on that day, Soviet aviation only sunk a floating workshop in Hopsfjord.

In the book by I.A. Kozlov and V.S. Shlomin “The Red Banner Northern Fleet” (Voenizdat, 1977) it is written:

"During the entire first period of the war, the batteries of the 113th artillery division inflicted significant losses on the Nazis. They opened fire on the enemy over 60 times. Having fired about 3500 shells, the gunners destroyed 11 warships and transports, and 9 ships were seriously damaged."

But in fact, the entire coastal artillery of the Northern Defensive Region during the entire war, having conducted about 300 firings and fired almost 20 thousand shells, destroyed 3 transports, 1 rescue vessel, 1 self-propelled barge and 1 drift boat.
In the USSR Navy, from June 3, 1943, by order No. 0408 "ON THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CASH REWARDS TO THE PERSONNEL OF SUBMARINES, TORPEDO BOATS, HUNTER BOATS AND AIRCRAFT CREWS OF THE NAVAL AIR FOR SINKING ENEMY SHIPS" cash payments were introduced to the crew members of ships and aircraft, the amount of which depended both on the position they held and on the type of ships and vessels they destroyed. Below is one of the points of the order:

A. TO THE PERSONNEL OF THE NAVY SHIPS:

a) for the sinking of an enemy battleship

To the ship's commander - 25 rubles.
Middle and higher command personnel - 5 rubles each
Junior command staff - 1 rubles each
Red Navy sailors - 500 rubles each
b) for sinking an enemy cruiser

To the ship's commander - 20 rubles.
Middle and higher command personnel - 3 rubles each
Junior command staff - 1 rubles each
Red Navy sailors - 500 rubles each
c) for the sinking of an enemy destroyer or submarine

To the ship's commander - 10 rubles.
Middle and higher command personnel - 2 rubles each
Junior command staff - 600 rubles each
Red Navy sailors - 300 rubles each
d) for sinking enemy transport

To the ship's commander - 3 rubles.
Middle and higher command personnel - 1 rubles each
Junior command staff - 200 rubles each
Red Navy sailors - 200 rubles each
d) for the sinking of an enemy patrol ship or minesweeper

To the ship's commander - 2 rubles.
Middle and higher command personnel - 500 rubles each
Junior command staff - 200 rubles each
Red Navy sailors - 100 rubles each

e) for sinking an enemy barge, tugboat or armed schooner

To the ship's commander - 1 rubles.
Middle and higher command personnel - 300 rubles each
Junior command staff - 100 rubles each
For Red Navy sailors - 50 rubles each.

According to the author of the article, such a system contributed to the falsification of the results of their attacks by a number of commanders. Naturally, it was more profitable for Marinesko to pass off the sunken transport "Steuben" as a cruiser, which promised him 3000 rubles instead of 20, and other crew members also benefited.

The author of the article knows nothing about similar methods of stimulating morale in the German Navy. However, there was a system of payments for the uninterrupted time spent by submariners at sea. An officer received 4 marks for each day, a non-commissioned officer, depending on his rank, from 3 to 2,5, and a sailor, 1,5. The record was set by U-181, which spent 220 days at sea uninterruptedly. Each officer received 880 marks in addition to his salary, whereas before the war a Volkswagen passenger car cost 1000 marks.

Sources of

1. Morozov M.E., Kulagin K.L. Soviet submarine fleet 1922-1945. Moscow, 2006
2. Morozov M.E. Submarines of the USSR Navy in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. Chronicle of military campaigns. Part 1. Red Banner Baltic Fleet. "Polygon", 2001
3. Morozov M.E., Kulagin K.L. "Eski" in battle. Moscow, 2008
4. Skrynnikov N.R., Morozov M.E. Unknown attack of commander Lunin. Moscow, 2019
5. Dotsenko V.D. Secrets of the Russian fleet. Moscow, 2005
6. Dotsenko V.D., Getmanets G.M. Fleet in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. Moscow, 2005
7. Dotsenko V.D. History of Naval Art. Vol. II. Fleets of the 2th Century. Book 2003. Moscow, XNUMX
8. Platonov A.V. Soviet warships 1941-1945. III. Submarines. St. Petersburg, 1996
9. Bogatyrev S.V. Losses of enemy fleets in the naval theaters of military operations in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. Lvov, 1992
10. Emelyanov L.A. Soviet submarines in the Great Patriotic War. Moscow, 1981
11. Kozlov I.A., Shlomin V.S. Red Banner Northern Fleet. Moscow, 1977
12. Mostseev V.M., Khametov M.I., Vlasov L.A., Revenko I.N. In the icy depths. Moscow, 1980
13. Vinogradov N.I. Underwater Front. Moscow, 1989
14. The Red Banner Baltic Fleet in the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. Articles and essays. USSR Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 1981
15. Bogatyrev S.V., Larintsev R.I., Ovcharenko A.V. Naval war in the Baltic 1941-1945. Part I. Losses of the enemy fleet in the Baltic Sea in 1941-43. Arkhangelsk, 1997
16. Edited by Basov A.V. Combat path of the Soviet Navy. Moscow, 1988
17. Tributs V.F. The Balts are advancing. Kaliningrad, 1968
18. Sorokazherdyev V. Lunin vs. Norwegian motorboats. "Evening Murmansk" Issue #51 from March 26, 2005.
19. https://drugoi.livejournal.com/4097824.html
20. Internet resources

Comments

[Grancer81]

The author is also a liar. N. Lunin never claimed to have hit the Tirpitz, he claimed to have launched an attack on the battleship with 4 torpedoes from the stern TA.
Regarding Norwegian motorboats... Let me remind you that at that time Norway was under occupation and any motorboat caught fish for the enemy of the USSR in the person of the Germans, who occupied Norway.
And what lamentations the author has about "Gustloff" and "Von Steuben"...

[Luminman]

Quote: Grencer81

N. Lunin never claimed to have hit the Tirpitz, he claimed that he had gone on the attack on the battleship with the launch of 4 torpedoes from the stern TA

In my opinion, he also added to this that he heard some explosions, without specifying what kind of explosions they were. The rest was invented for him by the writer V. Pikul in his novel Requiem Caravan PQ-17...

[Grancer81]

Yes, there was a note in the logbook that after the launch of the torpedoes, explosions of unknown origin were heard. But no one wrote or said anything like that anywhere about the torpedoes hitting anything.
This is already true, V. Pikul "got it"...

[Ryazan87]

In this novel Pikul wrote and composed, it seems, even more than usual. He copied Irving in pieces, almost without changing...

[Scaffold]

Thanks to Pikul, many still firmly believe that the Royal Navy was terrified of everything, especially the Tirpitz, and that all its actions during the war were dictated solely by panic fear.

[futurohunter]

Pikul was declared a foreign agent, wasn't he? And his writings are accordingly...

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: futurohunter

Pikul was declared a foreign agent, wasn't he? And his writings are accordingly...

Do we really fight with the dead? Savvich has been in the afterlife for 35 years already...

[futurohunter]

Sorry, I confused him with Akunin. However, they say that Pikul also fantasized with all his might

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: futurohunter

However, they say that Pikul also fantasized with all his might

Yes... Pikul loved to suggest historical truth.
If you don't know the original sources, then the flaws are not visible, but if you do, then reading, if you don't turn off your brain, turns into a "facepalm". :)

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

One author, well-known to all of us, wrote about Pikul: “I have a friend in Riga who, with each of his publications, sends a lot of venerable historians into a heart attack.”

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

One author known to all of us wrote about Pikul

You write as if this is a virtue...

[man]

Quote: Luminman

Quote: Grencer81

N. Lunin never claimed to have hit the Tirpitz, he claimed that he had gone on the attack on the battleship with the launch of 4 torpedoes from the stern TA

In my opinion, he also added to this that he heard some explosions, without specifying what kind of explosions they were. The rest was invented for him by the writer V. Pikul in his novel Requiem Caravan PQ-17...

I know little about "Tirpitz" from an old Soviet film about a lost convoy, but I remember with what admiration the naval officers remembered Marinescu (for some reason that's how they pronounced his last name) in the early 60s. So, most likely the author lied about Marinescu too...

[Klausp]

For the last two months I have been observing such petty denigration of the Soviet period in the media, especially on the Internet and on the radio. For example, from the latest, on the Business FM radio today they cited economic statistics on popular soft drinks - they say the most popular is Cola, but the SOVIET Tarhun and Duchess have completely lost the trust of buyers. So this article (and there is not only one lately) is a targeted and staged attack on the Soviet period. There are many examples, you just have to listen, watch and observe carefully. I believe that this "zzzz" is not without reason. The situation in the country is difficult... someone needs to be blamed, for example the previous "director".

[ZloyCat]

"The author is also a liar."
"They lie the most at war and when hunting" - there is such an old proverb. Everyone lied then - ours, the Germans, the allies, the neutrals - everyone. Based on this lie, the so-called scientists have already made up history, supposedly everything was like this. Someday future generations will clear out this pile, if they are interested in it. We will not be able to do this, the path to these archives is too thorny and tangled. It is closed off, for tens and hundreds of years. As for the author's tears for the poor Germans and Jews who died at the cruel hand of a Russian sailor - remember the Tallinn crossing, how many civilians, wounded, simply civilian ships were killed and sunk. Germany and Finland are forever in our debt for their deaths. The author probably does not know about this. Everything is too purposeful for him, and the criminals have already been appointed

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

You didn't notice my lamentations, you didn't read carefully. Read more about the history of the "Gustloff" in my book "Ships and History. Book Three". .litres.ru/book/aleksandr-fedorovich-mitrofanov/korabli-i-istoriya-kniga-tretya-33508470/ And in this difficult time, and even earlier (before the discovery of oil and gas on the Norwegian shelf), fish was the main food product of the ordinary peaceful Norwegian population, and not the Germans. Sorry, but you have some kind of sadistic inclinations. Lunin repeatedly claimed to end up in the "Tirpitz", I personally read his statements, but later he began to prevaricate.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

Lunin repeatedly claimed to be in the Tirpitz, I personally read his statements, but later he began to prevaricate.

Where can I read these very statements?

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Alas, it was a long time ago, I don't remember, I need to look. There were no personal computers to save back then. You can find them in your home "stash", but I'm "abroad" now.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

Unfortunately, it was a long time ago, I don’t remember, I need to look.

Unfortunately, life has taught me not to "take gentlemen's word for it", so your statement will remain in "suspended state"...

[Vik_Vik]

If you don't remember where to find it, then don't write it. Don't spread gossip in the mass media. Nowhere in official documents did Lunin claim that he got to Tirpitz. Someone wrote the gossip (if you didn't make it up), and you repeated it.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Search the Internet - you will find old publications.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

Search the Internet - you will find old publications.

Links to the studio...

[Stas57]

This is, of course, as the youth say, complete crap.

[Kalmykov Eduard]

Maybe that's the point, "overseas"?

[Vladimir_Borisovich]

There is such a profession - to denigrate history.

[ada]

Wait, wait! How is that possible? Where is the "quavaya KGB"?
Or was it not there in the original?

[Grancer81]

"The croaking KGB" and "the drunken NKVD officer" are waiting for their victims on the shore...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

No, don't distort things here. The special officer was in Marinesko's crew when he attacked Wilhelm Gustloff. So, the special officer deserves a medal too.
The special officer was planted precisely because of the low efficiency of the campaigns. And lo and behold! The planted special officer gave the crew strength!

[lynnot]

The planted special agent gave the crew strength!

Wasn't there a political officer among the crew?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I read it a long time ago, I don't remember, they wrote about a planted security officer. Everything is good that gives results. And there was a result, and what a result!

[lynnot]

I read it a long time ago, I don’t remember, they wrote about a planted special officer.

I even wondered where you read it. But you don't remember...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I don't remember, about ten years ago I read that Marinesko was planted as a special agent because of his low efficiency. I have the right not to remember.
I just don’t understand why ordinary facts break the mold for some people.
It would be good for you to understand that life is different in all its manifestations and does not always fit into a template.
Did Marinesko's feat wane because of this? He had to share with the special agent, and you don't want to? Well, it's you personally who don't want to.

[lynnot]

It’s just that, as far as I’ve read and heard, special officers appeared in crews after the abolition of commissars and political officers.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

You eliminate your contradictions yourself. Search, seek. Your problems, your solutions.

[lynnot]

If it's more convenient for you, then so be it.

[Grancer81]

About ten years ago? In Soviet times there was a book by a certain Smirnov, who was a member of the Military Council of the Baltic Fleet, the name of the political officer on S-13 is definitely mentioned there.

[ada]

As a child I read "The Feat of S-13" by V. Gemanov, a commissar was mentioned there, probably out of habit.
S. Smirnov, according to the search - the author of works about the defenders of the Brest Fortress?

[Grancer81]

No, this is a member of the Military Council of the Baltic Fleet, Vice-Admiral Smirnov N.K.
And the title of the book is "Notes of a Member of the Military Council", 1973.

[ada]

I see, thanks for the clarification.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: ada

As a child I read "The Feat of S-13" by V. Gemanov, a commissar was mentioned there, probably out of habit.

The difference between a commissar and a political officer:

Commissioner: "Do as I do!"
Political officer: "Do as I say!"

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

V. Gemanov wrote in the "spirit of loyalty to the party", so there is little credibility. Who would have written the real truth then? After all, even the books of Marshal Zhukov and Admiral Kuznetsov were terribly censored or refused to be published

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

After all, even the books of Marshal Zhukov and Admiral Kuznetsov were terribly censored or refused to be published.

Judging by Soviet memoirs, censorship was strictest at the marshal level. Below that, it either weakened or simply could not cope. Remember the memoirs of the same Kabanov with a description of the evacuation from Hanko, the battles at Sredny and Rybachye, and the landings on the Pacific Fleet.

[saigon]

Excuse me, but which version of Zhukov's memoirs was so brutally censored? The versions of Zhukov's memoirs written before, say, Leonid Ilyich's time and those written under Ilyich are very different. There are as many as 15 editions, and the number of pages differs. In the 1969 edition, Marshal Stalin was highly praised, while, for example, there is no edition about Stalin in 2002.

[saigon]

How could a special officer contribute to improving attack results? Was he a navigator, a torpedo operator, or could he have taken command of a submarine? And considering that submarine crews were selected for health more strictly than surface combatants, this raises even more questions.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Where does this crazy information come from? It seems like there was only a commissar (political officer). Different services, learn the basics

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There was a publication like this about ten years ago. I'll write about it when I find it.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Found.
So they sent the "penal soldier" Marinesko to the Polish shores. Moreover, they additionally assigned a "special officer" to him.
The first after God
Ravil Bayburin
https://proza.ru/2015/10/23/1065

[saigon]

Excuse me, WHERE was the special officer squeezed into the submarine? There's not enough space there

[Vladimir_2U]

As I see it, the author has taken it upon himself to repeat the perestroika filth. And let the list of literature not confuse you, this filth is mainly taken from "Internet resources", and the list is for the sake of solidity.

[Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich]

As I see it, the author has taken it upon himself to repeat the perestroika filth. And let the list of literature not confuse you, this filth is mainly taken from "Internet resources", and the list is for the sake of solidity.

I think it would be very nice if the administration removed this abomination from the site, and the author was denied publication, at least for a year to begin with.

[Aviator_]

and the author was denied publication, at least for a year to begin with.

He probably shares his fee with the right people. I don't see any other explanation.

[man]

I think it would be very nice if the administration removed this abomination from the site, and the author was denied publication, at least for a year to begin with.

But at the same time, make one exception, and still allow the author to entertain the public with tales about the Russians.

[Machito]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

As I see it, the author has taken it upon himself to repeat the perestroika filth. And let the list of literature not confuse you, this filth is mainly taken from "Internet resources", and the list is for the sake of solidity.

Another Mitrofanovism has hit rock bottom this time.
While reading, it reminded me a lot of Suvorov, who is Rezun. It seems like he is writing the truth, giving references, but in fact he is stretching an owl onto a globe to fit the facts to the desired conclusion.
Even Marinesko managed to shit, but 40000 tons cannot be denied. There were no submariners on Gustlov. Do I believe?
Nazi Germany built many submarines of the 21 series, but only 1-2 boats went to sea. There were no crews. Maybe one of the crews blew bubbles on Gustlov or somehow got hold of a wooden pea jacket? Or Germany built boats, but did not prepare crews for them?
Nowhere do they lie as much as during hunting and war. (C)
During combat operations it was not always possible to confirm the destruction of a target. All armies suffered and still suffer from "padding". In Germany only Rudel and Hartmann are worth something. And there were thousands of them.
But no, the author, instead of examining the fraud of Rudel and Hartmann, poured filth on the Red Army.
The article gets a big minus. The author is sent to a penal battalion.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

He did not try to deny the tonnage sunk by Marinesko. And the topic of this article is not Rudel, Hartmann, etc. Then you do not believe Colonel M.E. Morozov, candidate of historical sciences, senior research fellow at the Center for Military History of Russia, Institute of Russian History, Russian Academy of Sciences? But I got the main information for the article from his publications and lectures.

[Sensor]

Then you don’t believe Colonel M.E. Morozov, candidate of historical sciences, senior research fellow at the Center for Military History of Russia, Institute of Russian History, Russian Academy of Sciences?

If they had cited the original source and a link to an accessible document or a scan of this document, that would have been proof. But this is some kind of religious dispute: believe it or not. Recent history shows that generals not only lie, but also steal. "Today the court will announce the verdict for former Deputy Defense Minister Timur Ivanov" https://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2025/07/01/26165342.shtml

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

I'm not writing a dissertation, although there are links below. My wife told me a long time ago - if you write too much, you'll be jailed in your Lithuania.

[React]

Without reading the article, sensing a catch, I immediately rushed to the comments. Damn, I did the right thing. Thanks!

[not main]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

As I see it, the author has taken it upon himself to repeat the perestroika filth. And let the list of literature not confuse you, this filth is mainly taken from "Internet resources", and the list is for the sake of solidity.

I completely agree! I will add that there are accusations that there were refugees, prisoners of war, etc. on the sunken ships. The question is, how can this be determined? Is there an enemy ship? Yes. Then destroy it! Let me remind you of 1983. The Boeing grossly violated the border of the USSR, for which it went to the bottom. It did not respond to warnings, although it could not NOT see the tracers of the 30mm cannon! And what after that? Howling throughout Europe about how bloodthirsty the Russians are! And at least one fact? As they say, good students of Joseph Goebbels are now ruling Europe! I will cite two of the most widely circulated statements: "The more monstrous the lie, the faster they will believe it"! and "Give me the media and in a few months I will turn people into a herd of sheep"!

[Grancer81]

Did Major Osipovich's Su-15TM have 30mm cannons?

[Edvid]

After the sinking of the Gustloff, Hitler declared Marinescu a "personal enemy". And this is also a fact in the Hero's basket...

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Edvid

After the sinking of the Gustloff, Hitler declared Marinescu a "personal enemy". And this is also a fact in the Hero's basket...

The situation here is unclear...
The Swedish press wrote about this, but it is not in the known German documents.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Total nonsense. Hitler didn't even suspect Marinesko existed and no evidence of this was found in the German archives. This was written about a lot in the media. As they say, "learn the material" before throwing around unfounded accusations - read the sources attached to the article. It's disgusting to read the comments of illiterate "experts" in matters of history, where nothing useful can be gleaned except slop and insults. Shame on them! Purely in the style of a witch hunt.

[Klausp]

Shame on you, the author of this vile libel! Pah on you, and once again pah!

[Parabelum]

That is, when you write about something you cannot confirm, about the same Lunin and the Tirpitz, then this is normal, but if a person quotes the words of the same Swedish press, then he is immediately an “illiterate expert in matters of history”

[Pushkowed]

Overclaim as it is. The world champion in this sport is the Italian submariner Enzo Grossi (commander of the submarine "Barbarigo"), who sank two American battleships: "California" and "Mississippi", for which he received a knight's cross, a high command position and a bunch of other goodies. But for some reason the Americans themselves did not notice the loss of their battleships...

[Grancer81]

And among the German submariners, Albrecht Brandi, one of two holders of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds in the Kriegsmarine. What a storyteller!

[tolancop]

Quote: Grencer81

And among the German submariners, Albrecht Brandi, one of two holders of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds in the Kriegsmarine. What a storyteller!

He is not the only one... In "Hitler's Submarine War" it is described that German submariners had a term "Schepke tonnage" named after the submarine commander who constantly overstated the results of his work. So everyone was lying...

[lynnot]

That's exactly it. Some people were simply overly optimistic about their successes, while others were brazenly lying, driven by "neck itch."

[Grancer81]

I only have the second part of "Hitler's Submarine Warfare" left, "Victims". The first one was stolen at work. And now the whole set costs 5K.

[Sensor]

Hitler's Submarine Warfare. 1939-1942. Hunters. Part I and II.fb2

https://dropmefiles.com/xBwn1

password:podlodkf

[Fast_mutant]

Quote: Sensor

password:podlodkf

Somehow the password doesn't work. Is it this one?
I can see the password for the first archive, but the second "layer" didn't work.

[Sensor]

Another file sharing service without passwords
https://transfiles.ru/rfuxq

[Fast_mutant]

Thank you very much! (Too short) )))

[Technician_Harlan]

Yes, Brandy was a pretty good overclaimer. And if V.Lute earned his Diamonds quite deservedly, there are many questions about Brandy. He is somewhat justified by the fact that he fought in the Mediterranean, where it was much more difficult than for Lute in the Indian Ocean.

[man]

But for some reason the Americans themselves did not notice the loss of their battleships...
They probably forgot to put on their glasses.

[Luminman]

But Marinesko became famous for the “attack of the century” – the sinking of the transport “Wilhelm Gustloff”, as well as “Steuben” with a total tonnage of 40 BRT.

What nonsense ...

[Ryazan87]

What's so crazy? There don't seem to be any mistakes.

[Olgovich]

Gustloff's attack made Marinesko famous forever

[Andrey VOV]

I read and felt how the aattr takes great pleasure in throwing mud at the sailors. Why not write a piece about the German "aces" of the Luftwaffe, tankers and other liars? And about the noaaaaality in war, this is the cherry on the cake... Ugh.. Disgusting

[Alexander K]

You can't justify your own meanness with someone else's

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

I am a sailor, I do not write about tankers and pilots, you need to have at least basic knowledge of this. And if you doubt the accuracy of my articles, then provide specific arguments, preferably archival ones, and pour out slop. This is simply unethical.

[Andrey VOV]

Yes, I have already read something similar in the 90s and 90s...the sea was pouring in then.... For what purpose did you write this article??

[north 2]

article digest-summary from Wikipedia of similar historical publications. By the way, in Wikipedia "historical" references are diligently "corrected" exactly from the beginning of the return of Crimea to Russia, and in full there are corrected from the beginning of the Central Military District. In order to distort the truth about the history of the USSR and the victory of the USSR in WWII. Instructions on how to do this were sent down by the enemies of Russia back in the perestroika times. Since then, according to these instructions, Heroes and Alexander Matrosov and Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya and Viktor Talalikhin and 28 Panfilov men - they are all a "product" of Soviet propaganda. Well, and of course, Soviet submariners in that "line" too. And who is the author of the article in comparison with the true "archaeologists" of the truth about WWII, if the President of America himself recently said that it was the US Army that liberated Germany and Europe from fascism!
As for the Northern Fleet submariners and their victories and failures, the author in the article refers to anyone but the memoirs "Together with the Fleet" by the commander of the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War, Admiral Golovko. I understand the author here. If one of the most honored admirals of both the Great Patriotic War and the construction of the post-war Northern Fleet, in whose honor a modern new frigate was also named, is suspected of "lying", then for this one can end up in the dock. Well, and for the fact that the media and television screens mock the soldier Matrosov, the partisan Kosmodemyanskaya, the submariners Lunin and Marinesko, well, who will punish them for this!!! After all, this would be against the "Wikipedia truth", which is written and edited by such "authors"

[not main]

Quote: north 2

article digest-summary from Wikipedia of similar historical publications. By the way, in Wikipedia "historical" references are diligently "corrected" right from the beginning of the return of Crimea to Russia

Why go far? Yesterday in the History section there was an article about the "holocaust" and what? Today the article itself and all the comments have been deleted! The height of democracy and "freedom" of speech!

[bar]

Quote: north 2

article digest-summary from Wikipedia of similar historical publications. By the way, in Wikipedia "historical" references are diligently "corrected" precisely from the beginning of the return of Crimea to Russia, and in full there are corrected from the beginning of the North-Eastern Military District. In order to distort the truth about the history of the USSR and about the victory of the USSR in WWII.

What will happen when artificial intelligence comes into full force? There will be no memory of the truth left.

[severok1979]

For some reason, the author decided to fight in 2025 with the tales of naval political officers from the naval popular science of the 1970s-early 1980s and other fables from the "War Memoirs" series of the 1960s-1980s. I have to disappoint the author - he demonstrated "Estonian" reaction speed and was late with his revelations by 10-15 years)))

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: severok1979

I have to disappoint the author - he demonstrated "Estonian" reaction speed and was 10-15 years late with his revelations)))

I would say for about 30 years - in the mid-90s it was the height of fashion

[severok1979]

It’s not just a matter of the author’s inappropriate, tactless pathos and his rather “wooden” interpretations.
The fact is that the episode-by-episode verification of the effectiveness of torpedo and artillery attacks, mine laying by Soviet submarines according to our documents, those of our allies, neutrals, and the enemy in 90% of cases as a whole was carried out somewhere in the first half of the 2010s.

[man]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: severok1979

I have to disappoint the author - he demonstrated "Estonian" reaction speed and was 10-15 years late with his revelations)))

I would say for about 30 years - in the mid-90s it was the height of fashion

Alas, before... in the late 80s... the military were portrayed as slackers and parasites... their salaries were envied... My attempts to talk about the difficult service and the life of the military in general were not met with understanding...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: mann

in the late 80s... the military were portrayed as slackers and parasites...

I don't argue at all. But still, we haven't poured such filth on our history in the late 80s.

[man]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: mann

in the late 80s... the military were portrayed as slackers and parasites...

I don't argue at all. But still, we haven't poured such filth on our history in the late 80s.

You probably didn't read Ogonyok and Moskovsky Komsomolets back then... I confess, I was a liberal back then... and I read them avidly, even going to the library after work... It was only after 1993 that I realized what a fool I was...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: mann

You probably didn't read Ogonyok and Moskovsky Komsomolets back then...

That's right, I haven't read it.

[man]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: mann

You probably didn't read Ogonyok and Moskovsky Komsomolets back then...

That's right, I haven't read it.

Your happiness... and I still regret that I read it...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

I don't argue at all. But still, we haven't poured such filth on our history in the late 80s.

It was precisely at that time that the perestroika media began to promote the theory of Hitler’s forced preemptive strike against Stalin, who was preparing for aggression.
And about the hundreds of thousands of millions personally shot by Stalin, it poured out of every iron.

The publication of PA Medvedev in the "Moscow News" (November 1988) on the statistics of Stalinism victims caused a great resonance in society. According to his calculations, during the period 1927-1953 about 40 million people were repressed, including dispossessed kulaks, deported, those who died of hunger in 1933, etc. In 1989-1991 this figure was one of the most popular in the propaganda of Stalinism crimes and quite firmly entered the mass consciousness.
(…)
However, these 40 million soon ceased to satisfy the "growing needs" of certain political forces to denigrate the national history of the Soviet period. The "research" of American and other Western Sovietologists came into play, according to which 50-60 million people died in the USSR from terror and repression. As with Medvedev's PA, all the components of such calculations were extremely overstated; the difference of 10-20 million was explained by the fact that Medvedev began his count from 1927, and Western Sovietologists - from 1917. If Medvedev's PA stipulated in his article that repressions do not always mean death, that most of the dispossessed remained alive, that of those repressed in 1937-1938, a smaller part was shot, etc., then a number of his Western colleagues cited the figure of 50-60 million people as physically exterminated and died as a result of terror, repression, famine, collectivization, etc. In a word, they worked hard to fulfill the orders of politicians and special services of their countries with the aim of discrediting their opponent in the "cold war" in a scientific form, not disdaining to fabricate direct slander.

Only that which contained unreliable, greatly exaggerated statistics of repressions was actively introduced into the mass consciousness. And the mythical 50-60 million soon eclipsed Roymedvedev's 40 million in the mass consciousness.
Therefore, when the Chairman of the KGB of the USSR V.A. Kryuchkov in his appearances on television named the true statistics of political repressions (he repeatedly cited data on the records of the KGB of the USSR for 1930-1953 - 3778234 convicted political prisoners, of which 786098 were sentenced to death), many literally did not believe their ears, believing that they had misheard.

© Zemskov V.N. On the scale of political repressions in the USSR.

[futurohunter]

It has long been known that "experts" from British intelligence wrote under the name "Suvorov/Rezun". And the theme of repressions was promoted by all these "Memorials", "Radio Liberty" and other "Echoes of Moscow", which were supported by American-British foundations for the implantation of "democracy"

[Grancer81]

Okay, if they didn't hit your face... But in some places it even got to that.

[man]

It only got to this point in the Baltics... I know that some people changed into civilian clothes when going out into the city...

[Ryazan87]

In general, yes, everything stated in the article is fairly well-known facts. I think it was more for the hype, look how excited people were in the comments. I poked it a bit with a stick, and that's how many views there were, and the indignation...

[BAI]

1.

But in reality she failed to achieve a single victory.

And what specific document confirms this statement?
2. The author spreads Goebbels propaganda and asks for an article of the Criminal Code on the revision of the results of the war.
Yes, the so-called patriotic site is a disgrace for such articles.
Worse than Shpakovsky

[saigon]

The author is not repeating Goebbels, he is repeating our own liberals, like the Russian ones, in a word.

[turembo]

The further from the events, the less truth you can hear, most likely in 20 years they will claim that none of this happened at all, or more radically, for example, writing that Joseph Vissarionovich personally went out to sea, and personally shot at ships, planes, UFOs, and people of all possible religions, confessions, and then went down into a boat and continued shooting in all directions, and then landed on the shore and continued shooting, without a break for lunch and sleep, of course with the opening of a branch of the Gulag, and the running NKVD officers. Sometimes I wonder how they won the war at all, because in front of them the penal battalions, prisoners, political prisoners were running towards the enemy positions, and behind them the NKVD forces were shooting them, the bloody scum, and personally Joseph Vissarionovich, because half of the country was in prison, and the other half was guarding, and the fascists were simply lost and trying to escape from this madhouse, Hitler heard so much that the poor guy committed suicide, and the further into the forest the more intoxicating the tales. You never know, some fantastic version about the terrible USSR will soon pop up again, there has already been one about infant cannibalism, right? Exactly, well I don’t know, they’ll invent more reptilians from Nibiru who were going to take over the world, but the good elves didn’t let them…

[Alex 1970]

Forgotten Beria in a glittering pince-nez, simultaneously torturing innocent designers, writers, directors (all together) and raping their wives, along with ballerina actresses and singers. Without him, there is no way.

[man]

Quote: Alex 1970

Forgotten Beria in a glittering pince-nez, simultaneously torturing innocent designers, writers, directors (all together) and raping their wives, along with ballerina actresses and singers. Without him, there is no way.

And at the same time, don’t forget to note that Beria was a migrant... with a hint of topicality

[Grancer81]

And he did this 25 hours a day, eight days a week...

[man]

Sometimes I wonder how they won the war at all, because in front of them the penal battalions, the prisoners, the political prisoners were running towards the enemy positions, and from behind they were shot by the NKVD forces, the bloody scum.
I see you also watched "Penal Battalion" After this nonsense, young people may have a strong impression that the Great Patriotic War was won exclusively by the penal battalions, and the rest only got in their way...

[turembo]

I haven't watched it, I try to stay as far away from our modern films and TV series as possible, there is of course an exception like "The Factory", and my post is a mixture of irony and sarcasm about the violence against history and the exploits of our ancestors.

[man]

Quote from turembo

I haven't watched it, I try to stay as far away from our modern films and TV series as possible.

This is a wise decision. I do too, but during Covid, when old people weren't allowed out of the house, I had to watch everything on TV out of boredom then I watched enough... and before that I even ignored "Liquidation"...

[Santa Fe]

sometimes I wonder how they won the war at all, because in front of them the penal battalions, prisoners, political prisoners ran to the enemy positions, and from behind they were shot by the NKVD forces

You are facing a war with Ukraine, the fourth year of the meat grinder in all its details thanks to the Internet, and you with childish naivety ask my "ironic" question - could the same thing have happened during the Great Patriotic War?

Prisoners, Wagner, PMC, Koreans, "zeroing" of valuable specialists - for interfering with the higher command, public appeals of soldiers, complaints, falsifications, lies about losses, meat storms. All methods and solutions that can be obtained to continue the war have been tried. And then, 90 years ago, approximately the same thing was observed

If smartphones and fpv existed 90 years ago, all the saccharine tales “about the infantry, about the native company” would have turned into video recordings of how the native company collectively beats up those who do not want to go into a meat assault

How we managed to win then. And what now

Back then, there could have been 10 million conscript armies of free soldiers. The Red Army soldiers weren't promised 6 million each. And there was a clear goal, the Red Army soldiers didn't need a long and complicated explanation of why they were being called up and taken to the front. To repel the attack of Nazi Germany. The war was noble in every sense of the word.

The extremely high losses of the Red Army in that war - this topic received publicity at the turn of the century, but gradually died down. The public lost interest in such investigations, elevating them to the status of "slander". Well, really, that couldn't have happened., because it couldn't be. And in general, what can we repeat then and how in such conditions to celebrate Victory Day, with pomp and fanfare

But the war with Ukraine broke out - and we saw everything in great detail. How it is now, and how it was then

[futurohunter]

Only now and then it was very different. There was no such "fifth column" then, from the bottom to the top. Then there was a war that affected almost everyone. Now only a small part of people are fighting, and there is a considerable part that openly says "we did not send you there."
Back then, boys ran to the front. And now, there are many boys "for Navalny."
No, everything was completely different then...

[Alexey RA]

Quote from turembo

Sometimes I wonder how they won the war at all, because the ones running ahead to the enemy positions were penal battalions, prisoners, and political prisoners.

... with shovel handles! Don't forget about the imperishable Barina, filmed, by the way, with money from the Ministry of Culture.

[futurohunter]

Yeah, only this ram has suddenly become a patriot...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: futurohunter

Yeah, only this ram has suddenly become a patriot...

They just started paying for patriotism. Although, IMHO, the master is out of old habit Russian intelligentsia still keeps a fig in his pocket.

[futurohunter]

I don't agree with you. Now even on TV "Zvezda" they are already talking about slanders against Beria, and about Gorbachev and Yeltsin, as destroyers of our country. Another question is that, recognizing the "big truth", they are inserting into it petty nastiness about the same "repressed peoples", about "gulag", etc.

[Kvakosavrus]

There were probably some padding, but all sides had fun with it.

The cool stories about the beast-like Ivans, drunkenly killing everything they see, were clearly invented in the department of Mr. Goebbels, and then creatively developed by the liberal public.

[Panadol]

The author found an old subscription to the Ogonyok magazine from the late 80s?
What kind of dirty libel is this?
It's a shame about the wasted time.....

[lynnot]

The author found an old subscription to the Ogonyok magazine from the late 80s?

It’s even interesting how the author would present the material from here: https://exeter-33.livejournal.com/256.html -?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

I was surprised by the selective nature of what the Author wrote, as in the children's proverb - "I twist and turn, I want to confuse"...
There are many monographs and works by historians on the victories of our submarines. All without arrogance and window dressing. War is not a child's play, all participants in wars have statistics of errors in calculating losses and victories.
Why get hysterical about this? Alas, I don't know!
What outraged me the most was this.

They were taken to shore, where three of them died in Soviet camps.

Yeah, that's not normal...
Below…
The kind Norwegians did not hesitate to hand over our Red Navy sailor to a concentration camp. This is normal, it is surprising that the last one survived….
For the author's information, Norway was occupied by Germany, some Norwegians, like Thor Heyerdahl, fought on the side of the Allies, others fed the occupiers fish….
I think sentimentality is unnecessary.
Now the conclusions. After a number of good articles about the training ships of the world, the Author began to pour "slop" on our Fatherland, considering that he lives abroad, perhaps working off a grand.
A question for the site administration, and for you yourself from such publications...
I would be ashamed, first of all in front of my readers.

[Gardamir]

What kind of people are we?! We must spit on our own past. Want to expose? Believe me, there are enough false victories and false heroes in other countries.

[futurohunter]

The author is not the people. He himself said that he is "overseas". That is why he is not afraid that someone will find him and "have a heart-to-heart talk"

[27091965]

What is the point of this article? Maybe VO should bring back "pluses" and "minuses" to evaluate such articles and authors?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: 27091965i

What is the point of this article? Maybe VO should bring back "pluses" and "minuses" to evaluate such articles and authors?

A sensible proposal, I support it with all my might and tail!

[man]

Quote: 27091965i

What is the point of this article? Maybe VO should bring back "pluses" and "minuses" to evaluate such articles and authors?

There is a risk that in this case, authors will start churning out articles exclusively about migrants.

[futurohunter]

Pros and cons for articles and authors are a must. And this article is not the most "like that". True, the term "Mitrofanovshchina" has already appeared. And one great Russian writer even had a name - Mitrofanushka...

[Alex 1970]

Both yesterday's article and today's stink a mile away. Are Astafyev's laurels giving you no peace?

[severok1979]

There has long been an internet proverb about this. "The younger the blogger, the more he suffered from Stalin/NKVD/USSR")))

[Military Specialist]

The author keeps blabbering "...in fact"... Maybe he could provide the original source where this "very thing" is truthfully described? Otherwise it doesn't look very solid.

[Gomunkul]

Yes..., apparently the author is really short of money, that he climbed into Shpakovsky's field, it's not good. Two anti-Sovietists on the VO website is already too much. There are more and more children of Lieutenant Schmidt in the VO team.

[oleg Pesotsky]

Today's Russia is a unique country. Nowhere in the world do they like to trample on their own history and spit on it so much. In the history of the Russian state, all sorts of things have happened, but for some reason it is the glorious moments and great deeds that are slandered. The current article is an example of this. No one says that the submarine war of the Soviet sailors was super successful, but under the author's pen they are transformed into incompetents capable only of padding and falsifications.

[man]

under the author's pen they turn into incompetents capable only of padding and falsifications.
in between binges

[Igor Belobrov]

Another "exposer". Mitrofanov's article stinks of being ordered. After all, according to the logic of the author of the article, it turns out that submarine commanders were engaged in falsifications in order to receive bonuses. Hence the conclusion - all Red Army commanders were engaged in this and, as a consequence, the victory in 1945 was also a kind of falsification. So this Mitrofanov went to the farm to catch butterflies.

[Vik_Vik]

Listen, that's the exact idea. That's what they're leading to. That Victory isn't a victory, but rather a march along a road paved with the corpses of our dead soldiers. And they allegedly won. That's why they write their libels in batches to implement this idea, picking on all the problems and failures without which war cannot exist.

[futurohunter]

Yes, and at the same time he praised the "valiant Germans". The article clearly follows a pattern. Let's highlight the key points:
- Soviet sailors/pilots had no victories, but there were false reports
- A drunk Soviet commander shot defenseless fishermen
- The unfortunate fishermen died in Stalin's camps
- A drunk commander threw a Soviet sailor into the sea
- The Germans saved a Soviet sailor
- The Germans provided assistance to the families of the unfortunate fishermen
- German submariners did not engage in falsifications
Here's a set of theses issued to the author customers. And there he already wrote a lot of scribbles around it. And you can make up "sources", no one will look for them and check them anyway. And if they catch you in your tracks, there are always excuses: "I don't remember", "there was no Internet", "that's what the sources say", "the admiral said so", etc. At the same time, the message of the article is visible to the naked eye: drunk Soviet ghoul-sadists-submariners against noble Germans...
What is this called? It's time to write articles on "Goebbelsism under the guise of Mitrofanovism"

[Grancer81]

But it is absolutely impossible for the author to write about the "exploits" of German submariners in the North, for example, about how "father Doenitz's boys" from U-255 (commander, captain-lieutenant Reche) shot unarmed Soviet citizens...

[tatarin1972]

I really want to correct the author's face so that he doesn't write crap, but I thought that the time of "perestroika" and the nineties was long gone.

[futurohunter]

Exactly!
I only saw your reply today - I haven't visited the site for a long time

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

I read the author's evidence base and am simply thrilled. Regarding the shooting of the motorboats, the author provides the following justification - a report by a political officer.

"The commander made the decision to sink the fishing boats while drunk. The commander's further actions were nervous. The commander demanded that the PPSh be brought to the bridge, and he himself began to shoot at the fishermen, but since the PPSh was not set to automatic, the commander could only fire one shot, and Lunin was unable to switch it to automatic fire, so the commander began to use foul language and reproaches towards the gunners on the bridge: "Why are you being fed bread?"

Question one. The head of the political department of the submarine brigade, Captain 2nd Rank Boldyrev, saw all this with his own eyes, was he present on the submarine?
Question two. Boldyrev clearly does not sympathize with Lunin. Where are the descriptions of the execution of innocent peaceful sailors?
Question three Boldyrev describes 1 (ONE) shot from a small arm, and it was fired at the time when the submarine's gun was firing. That is, this shot was fired when the fire was directed at the motorboats, and they couldn't even zero in, which is why Lunin swore. How did 1 (ONE) bullet from a PPSh (okay, even several single shots), fired towards the motorboat, apparently when it had not yet sunk, become in the mind of the author of this material

All this is a complete lie. In fact, these were the motorboats “Frøy”, “Havegga”, “Baren” and “Øistein” engaged in fishing under Norwegian flags and with Norwegian crews. “K-21” fired at the motorboats with a 100-mm cannon, and their crews were shot with small arms, in which Lunin personally participated.

?

[Skif3216]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Question one. The head of the political department of the submarine brigade, Captain 2nd Rank Boldyrev, saw all this with his own eyes, was he present on the submarine?

Either the person who was supposed to report it, Lysov, or well-wishers, of which Lunin had plenty.

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Where are the descriptions of the execution of innocent peaceful sailors?

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Question 1 Boldyrev describes XNUMX (ONE) shot from a small arms

Apparently Boldyrev thought that only the captain had problems with the weapon.

The first vessel to be attacked was the Havegga with a crew of seven; three Norwegian fishermen were killed and three wounded as a result of artillery and small arms fire, and the vessel was seriously damaged. The next to be attacked was the motorboat Baren, which was attempting to leave the battle area; K-7 limited itself to a burst of machine gun fire and a signal, which the Norwegian fishermen took as a ban on retreating to the shore. K-21's next target was the motorboat Øistein, which was attacked from a distance of 21 meters. The motorboat was badly damaged by artillery fire at close range, five fishermen were killed and one was wounded. Another motorboat, Skreien, had its crew of seven taken off and transferred to the submarine. The last to be attacked was the motorboat Frøy, which sank as a result of the damage it had sustained (one person was killed and one was wounded). When attacking motorboats, in addition to artillery, small arms were also used (DP light machine gun, rifles, PPSh submachine gun, Nagant revolver).

Bad articles are coming out in droves, either recalculating the losses in the Great Patriotic War in the right direction for themselves, or trying to tarnish the bright image of our sailors, we live in troubled times.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Skif3216

The vessel Havegga with a crew of 7 was attacked first; three Norwegian fishermen were killed and three others were wounded as a result of artillery and small arms fire, and the vessel was seriously damaged. The motorboat Baren was attacked next.

With a link to "Evening Murmansk b-port com" a now defunct web page.
Thank you, you have confirmed it, indeed you have confirmed it.
But, most importantly, the author should have collected and presented such evidence. I am not very familiar with our submarine warfare in WWII, and I kept putting off studying it. But this does not change the fact that such accusations require strict proof, which the author did not provide.

[Skif3216]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

in strict proof, which the author did not provide

Well, the story is murky, on the other hand, our people do not deny that 7 Norwegian fishermen were captured, they were released in 46, well, those who survived of course. One of them even gave an interview, though it was in the early 50s in Norway and it was already in NATO, so he could have lied. We will not believe the German documents that they did not lose motorboats that day, and our archives were again classified, so we will see the report of Captain 2nd Rank Boldyrev in the late 2030s at best. There were such battles about this incident on specialized forums in the mid-10s, you can't imagine, with documents from ours, the Norwegians, the Germans, in the end everyone remained with their own, declaring that the documents of the opponents were fake, and the witnesses were lying.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Skif3216

Yes, the story is murky, on the other hand, our people do not deny that 7 Norwegian fishermen were captured, they were released in 46, well, those who survived, of course.

You see, the thing is, I'm not trying to claim that Lunin is all white and fluffy. Maybe he wasn't, but it needs to be proven. If the evidence is unconfirmable, then he can be accused of all the proven sins. Otherwise, you still have to write "there is another version of events - such and such facts show that it was POSSIBLE that things were not as official historiography believes." I try very hard to do just that in my publications - if I'm absolutely sure of something, I write it as a fact and explain why - and I'm ready to admit I'm wrong if the comments refute it. I'm only human and, of course, I can be wrong. And if I'm not sure of something, I write specifically about hypotheses, possibilities, and probabilities.
And then - what?
On the subject, I will note the following. I read somewhere that before this episode, in his previous sorties, Lunin was bombed by motorboats - not peaceful Norwegian ones, of course, but, in all likelihood, requisitioned and used by the Germans. Well, or by Norwegians under the German flag, I will not judge here. I can admit that it was not motorboats that bombed Lunin, but that he recognized them as motorboats - ours generally had problems with identifying the enemy.
Hence, the fact that he attacked them this time becomes somehow understandable. And then

Quote: Skif3216

The first vessel to be attacked was the Havegga, with a crew of seven; as a result of artillery and small arms fire, three Norwegian fishermen were killed and three more were wounded, and the vessel was seriously damaged.

The first strike - they did not shoot at the sailors from the sunken ship, but simply fired from everything they had, assuming the enemy.

Quote: Skif3216

Next, the motorboat "Baren" was attacked, trying to leave the battle area; K-21 limited itself to a burst of machine gun fire and a signal, which the Norwegian fishermen took as a ban on retreating to the shore.

In theory, civilians are supposed to stop in such situations; if they tried to run away, the burst is understandable. And again, they stopped running, and the submarine stopped firing. That is, in one case, fire to kill, in the other, it seems, quite reasonable actions. And then, according to your text, again to kill. This is all strange.

Quote: Skif3216

We won't believe the German documents that they didn't lose their motorboats that day.

I would believe it. It was not the Germans who lost the motorboats, but the Norwegians - so why would the Germans suddenly record them as their losses? They did not consider it necessary to record in their documents all those Franks and others who expressed a desire to fight for the Germans against the USSR (as well as their losses), and here we have completely foreign watercraft.

Quote: Skif3216

One even gave an interview, although it was in the early 50s in Norway and it was already in NATO, so he could have lied.

He could. But he could also not lie, so I'm interested in what he said. And under what conditions - simply, when these are someone's memories, quietly and peacefully recorded by a scientist or someone else, then that's one thing, but if this interview is made into political propaganda, reprinted in a bunch of magazines - then another. In any case, it may be true, or it may not, but in the first case there is still more trust.

Quote: Skif3216

and our archives have been classified again

That's right. Look at what they've come up with, studying history... Now they'll cut us off from the world wide web completely, movies, books - only those approved by the Ministry of Culture, in general, hello, Iron Curtain part #2

Quote: Skif3216

in the end, everyone stayed the same

When was it ever different?

[futurohunter]

Regarding the PPSh in general, it is designed for fools.
First of all, if he was so drunk that he couldn't switch the fire mode, how could he shoot anywhere? And who would listen to him in such a state? They would simply drag him inside to sleep it off.
Second, the author, apparently, does not know at all what an automatic weapon is. That after a shot the weapon is reloaded, and, please, shoot as many single shots as you like.
By the way... and this one Mitrofanov is a man in general? Maybe, neural network What? What? It's fashionable now!
And the gaffe with the weapon is very typical for neural networksA person who has ever held a Kalashnik in his hands would hardly write something like this.

[Watchmen - North]

Quote: Andrey VOV

Why not write an article about German Luftwaffe aces, tankers and other liars?

They don't pay for this...

[Watchmen - North]

The very fact of going on a combat mission and attacking enemy ships, even unsuccessfully, in the most difficult conditions of the Baltic and North Atlantic is already a feat. Soviet submariners fulfilled their duty to the country and the people to the end.
Mitrofanov is of course an ordinary traitor who throws in 30 Silver coins.
It should be noted that the actions of Soviet submariners have become a favorite topic of anti-Sovietists.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And how much have you actually sold yourself for if you throw mud at Rogozin, even where he did the right thing?

[Watchmen - North]

Where do I throw mud at Rogozin, my dear? He threw mud at himself along with General Lebed.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

You, my dear, did not like his complaints about the quality of UAZ vehicles during the SVO.
And when did Rogozin and Lebed conduct business together? Didn't he mix something up?
Have you completely lost your way?

[Watchmen - North]

In 1995, Rogozin and Lebed created the KRO Congress of Russian Communities with money from Jewish oligarchs, with the task of drawing the votes of the patriotic Russian-oriented part of the voters in favor of Yeltsin. Which is what was done: the KRO took 15% of the votes in the first round and called for Yeltsin to be voted for in the second round.
The situation at UAZ is a consequence of the victory of international capital in the Russian Federation, whose protégé was Yeltsin and the politicians who followed him. So Rogozin himself is one of the active architects of the destruction of domestic industry.
And Rogozin and Lebed received their 30 pieces of silver for their betrayal of the Russian people - Rogozin became the representative of the Russian Federation in NATO and went off to Brussels, and Lebed became the secretary of the security council and then the governor of the Krasnoyarsk region.
So you need to know the history of your country, as well as its heroes...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Has enlightenment come? And where have you been, my dear, all these years? Have you been having fun in Kyiv?
And so, from the outside, he looks like a real hero-exposer.

[Watchmen - North]

For example, even then I did not believe the traitors who verbally spoke out for the Russian people - Yeltsin, Zhirinovsky, Lebed, Rogozin and others. Subsequent events showed that I was right.
In 1996 he voted for the Communist Party of the Russian Federation.
This concludes the lesson.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

First of all, stop this flight of fancy, Kyiv resident. When was Rogozin connected with Lebed?

[Kostadinov]

I will not engage in the author's qualifications - "false victories" and so on about Soviet submarines and sailors. Especially in the conditions in which they had to fight. How many of them lived to see the victory.
1. a) K-21 sank the transport "Besheim" and the large hunter UJ-1110 with mines. In addition to the crews, the two ships were also hit by Wehrmacht vacationers, of whom more than 20 died.
b) The attack on the Tirpitz was a tactical success as it stopped its operation against the convoy. In other words, K-21 did what the "omnipotent" British fleet could not.
2. S-13 - how many times do we have to repeat that "Gustloff" and "Steuben" are military ships - a perfect military target. At the same time, "Gustloff" was a submarine training base, and "Steuben" was a troop transport.
a) About 450 submarine cadets died on the Gustloffs. Not the commanders, but the crews. And as is well known, submarines cannot operate without crews either. So 10-12 submarines were left without crews for at least six months or more. Still, not a bad result.
b) In January 1945, not everyone had been evacuated from East Prussia. The "refugees" at the "Gustl" were not the usual old people, children and women from Prussian towns and villages, but primarily Nazi party functionaries with their families and, even more importantly, "pre-recruits" of 17-18 years old who were to be drafted into the Wehrmacht.
c) I will not comment on the Wehrmacht soldiers who died (wounds or health) during the war. They did not go to capitulate, but to fight.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Kostadinov

b) The attack on the Tirpitz was a tactical success as it stopped its operation against the convoy. In other words, K-21 did what the "omnipotent" British fleet could not.

It did not stop. Lunin attacked the Tirpitz at 18:01. And the German naval formation turned back only at 22:51.
Operation Rösselsprung was cancelled after the German force was successively detected by submarine K-21, reconnaissance aircraft Il-4 and submarine Unshaken. After the German RR intercepted the third consecutive message about the detection of a German KUG, as well as receiving information about the dispersal of the PQ-17 KON, Raeder decided to terminate the operation.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexey RA

Operation Rösselsprung was cancelled after

The order of the reports was all slightly different:
17.28. The convoy is very thin...
19.25. Radio interception by the onboard RTR group, probably a message from K-21
19.40. Radio interception of the onboard RTR group about the location of the detachment, probably from the Il-4
20.10. Radio interception by the onboard RTR group of a message from Murmansk about the composition, location, course and speed of the detachment.
20.33. RDO from the "North" group with the crossing of the "Ansheikn" message.
21.47. RDO from the "North" group: KR KR "Stop!"

[Old electrician]

How to create an invincible battleship using Mitrofanov's method. Take an ordinary battleship, paint it white and decorate it with the symbols of the "Red Cross" on all sides. Put women and children on the battleship and voila. Any shot at such a medical vessel is the most vile war crime, which can be appealed in all corrupt international courts. - hee-hee-hee!
Mitrofanov writes:

But let's not touch on the moral aspects of this case. After all, Marinesko could not have known about the composition of the passengers of the Gustloff and the Steuben.

But let's touch on the moral aspect. The Guslov's lights being on are not a sign of a medical vessel. And they were turned on temporarily and only to avoid a collision with the escort destroyer during a maneuver in the dark. The supposedly "medical" Guslov, painted in camouflage and without the Red Cross symbols, had 3 (three) 10,5 cm Flak 38 anti-aircraft guns installed. This is not counting the rest of the weapons on board. The armament of the S-13 boat of Alexander Marinesko is 1 (one) 100 mm 51 B-24PL gun. If, in accordance with international law, Marinesko had ordered the Guslov to stop for inspection, then even in the absence of the escort destroyer Lewe, the "peaceful" liner would have smashed the S-13 to rags with the first salvo. Marinesko's return fire with his only gun at such a colossus would not have brought any visible effect. That is, the S-13 boat was guaranteed to lose an artillery duel with the "sanitary" vessel.
The German Heinz Schön writes about this:

...Wilhelm Gustloff was a legitimate military target for Soviet submariners due to the following facts:
1. The Wilhelm Gustloff carried out operations in a combat zone and was not a civilian vessel: it had weapons on board that could be used to combat enemy ships and aircraft;
2. "Wilhelm Gustloff" carried out the transfer of active army personnel;
3. "Wilhelm Gustloff" was a training floating base for the German submarine fleet;
4. "Wilhelm Gustloff" was accompanied by a warship of the German fleet (the destroyer "Loewe").

Mitrofanov! The fact that the fascists covered the Guslov with six thousand refugees is a moral aspect of the fascists and the fascist leadership, but not of Marinesko and the Soviet Navy. Hiding behind "civilians" is typical of both the Nazis before 1945 and their modern followers in Ukraine. In turn, if Marinesko, out of pity for the blond little ones, had refused to torpedo the Guslov, he should have been hanged for treason.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Don't mock the dead refugees. Who used them as cover? Did Denits tell Kuznetsov about their presence in a personal message? No need to distort my article. I don't blame Marinesko for the deaths of the refugees, because he couldn't have known about them.

[guest]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

I do not blame Marinesko for the deaths of the refugees, because he could not have known about them.

Even if he had known, the goal was still legitimate and even in Germany they didn’t really argue with it.

[Vik_Vik]

Oh, what a sufferer for fascist refugees! The ship was armed, i.e. it posed a danger to OUR ships and vessels. There were also military personnel on the ship. They posed a threat to OUR fighters. And even the presence of refugees under such conditions was grounds for an attack. Even if Marinesko had known about their presence on the ship. And the Germans could have saved their civilians very simply - by capitulating.

[futurohunter]

Alexander Mitrofanov
It is you who mock Soviet sailors and pilots and extol the Germans. Like, what lying sadists the Red Navy sailors and Red Falcons are, and what noble Germans are. There is no other meaning in your scribblings, which are not supported by anything.
And you also honestly admitted that you write "from abroad"
Maybe you could honestly name the customer, or "donor"?

[futurohunter]

Old electrician
It was the morally immoral Mitrofanov who covered up the "Gustloffs" with six thousand "civilians"

[Kostadinov]

46 torpedoes were used in this case.

This is about L-3. I think that with these boats, torpedoes, fire control devices and in these conditions in which Soviet submarines fought, no one could do better. Honor and glory to them forever!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Kostadinov

I think that with these boats, torpedoes, fire control devices and in these conditions in which Soviet submarines fought, no one could do better.

Well... compared to the Yankees, Soviet torpedoes were simply magnificent.

[Bogalex]

For the second day, I’ve been reading leaflets printed in Dr. Goebbels’ printing house...
The author has not provided any evidence to support his opinion. The selection of episodes is solely for throwing mud at Soviet submariners. The author's admiration for the humanism of the Nazis and their accomplices, as well as the unconditional acceptance of the fascist versions of the events examined, is, to put it mildly, puzzling.
I would really like to hear the opinion of the site administration on how such opuses appear on the resource. Because, from behind the screen of restoring historical truth and justice (which is certainly an important and necessary activity), in the last two articles by A. Mitrofanov, the ears of morbid hatred towards the description of the exploits of ancestors, the desire to denigrate and discredit them stick out so clearly that it was absolutely impossible not to notice them when moderating the article.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

You, dear sir, have really gone off the rails here. Your attempts to the effect that 120 mm cluster munitions are not effective sounded no less impressive. But the problem is that the Ukrainians are showering us with these Israeli-made cluster munitions in unlimited mode.
And how your strange messages appear here still needs to be figured out.

[Olga. Olga]

How similar it is to our "truth-lovers," both the author and the commentators. Without a doubt, they take on faith everything that the American and Western (European) media write. And they are ready, the author of this article, to distort and belittle the victories of Soviet submariners. Have you ever been on a submarine in your life? And what an article they lied about!!!

[Olgovich]

The author refutes a lot.

But this must be done with primary source documents in hand.

Event-document, event-document. Otherwise, it will be the same as above....

[Illanatol]

In the first post-war years, based on reports compiled from the reports of ship commanders, it followed that submarines alone sank more than 400 ships. But in fact, the loss of only 127 enemy ships was confirmed.

Thank you, funny. Is the author of the opus aware that our submariners attacked and sank not only enemy ships, but also neutral ships that delivered strategic materials to the Reich? By the way, this did not contradict the norms of international maritime law.

The article is clearly biased and subjective. It clearly reflects the biases and views of its author.

[Grancer81]

By the way, German submariners sank neutral ships in the same way in the Atlantic. The sinking of Brazilian ships by "Dönitz's boys" served to force Brazil to enter the war, although there, as in Argentina, pro-German sentiments had been strong up until that time.
The Germans drowned both neutral Swedes and Portuguese in the Atlantic.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Grencer81

By the way, German submariners sank neutral ships in the same way in the Atlantic. The sinking of Brazilian ships by "Dönitz's boys" served to force Brazil into the war, although there, as in Argentina, pro-German sentiments had been strong up until that time.
The Germans drowned both neutral Swedes and Portuguese in the Atlantic.

I know. But here's a characteristic detail. The sinking of Swedish ships by the Germans, which were delivering strategic materials to the British, did not provoke a growth of anti-German sentiments in Sweden. But the Swedes still cannot forgive the Russians for this, all Russian/Soviet submarines were imaginary to them after the war.
A clear example of how alien we are to these Europeans.

[Grancer81]

So how many times have the Swedes gotten it from the Russians? Such things are not forgotten.

[Tests]

A small lie breeds great mistrust... Dear author! It is clear that for you the Soviet sailors are false heroes who won false victories. For you, the real knights of the deep are, it seems, the submariners of the 3rd Reich who fought heroically and won real victories. And you have lowered them below the city sewer! You have to write like this: "And this in January 1945, when the effectiveness of German submarines was practically zero, and the Reich itself was already in its death throes!"
I suggest you meet the descendants of sailors from different countries and look them in the eye. You can meet the descendants of Soviet sailors who were on the former "Liberty" (transferred to the USSR as reparations from Italy in May 1944) named "Tbilisi", which was sailing on 01.01.1945 from Murmansk to Pechenga with a cargo of food. The ship received a torpedo in the stern from the knights of Dönitz. Or are Soviet sailors and their descendants, for you, not first-class people?
Then we can find the descendants of the sailors from the corvette "Denby Castle", which received torpedoes from U-992 on 13.02.1945. And on 14.02.1945 (on St. Valentine's Day, what a lack of respect for tradition!) on the Kilden Reach U-711 torpedoed the "Liberty" "Horrace Gray", and U-968 torpedoed the Norwegian tanker "Norfjell". You believe the Norwegians, don't you?
On February 17, 1945, the British corvette Bluebell was sunk by submarine U-64 from convoy RA-711 (the ship sank so quickly that rescuers were only able to save 1 sailor). Looking into the eyes of the descendants of the 85 dead Bluebell sailors, can you tell them about the zero effectiveness of German submarines in early 1945? And submarine U-968 sank the Liberty-type transport ship Thomas Scott with a displacement of 7176 tons and damaged the sloop Lark beyond repair... When the Lark's stern was torn off by a torpedo explosion, MO-434 of the Northern Fleet of the USSR began rescuing sailors from the water. British ships and the destroyer Zhestkiy approached, started towing cables and tried to tow the Lark. On the way to the Kola Bay, the cable snapped from the impact of the waves and got tangled up in the propeller of a Soviet destroyer. Signalman V. Limarov jumped into the icy water and freed the propeller on the third attempt... Apparently, he had been a "walrus" for many decades, intensively training to dive in winter, and waited and waited and waited for the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy or the Supreme Commander to sign a corresponding order establishing a monetary reward for freeing the propellers of the destroyer of the USSR Navy in the winter beyond the Arctic Circle...
And this is only for January-February 1945, only in the Northern Fleet of the USSR.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

I don't understand what you're writing about and how it relates to my article? There's elderberry in the garden, and an uncle in Kyiv

[Tests]

Dear author! I have given a quote from your article. Please read it carefully. I really hope: that you speak Russian, read and write in Russian without a dictionary; that you are a real person, and not a group of officers from the Central Information and Psychological Operations Center of country 404... Although... You were not outraged by my assumptions: "Dear author! It is clear that for you, Soviet sailors are false heroes who won false victories. For you, the real knights of the deep seem to be the submariners of the 3rd Reich who fought heroically and won real victories. And you have lowered them below the city sewer!"
New creative successes to you!

[Aviator_]

It is also interesting to note that the K-21's logbook was forged.

Well, the famous WWII Navy researcher Miroslav Morozov wrote more specifically that the logbook of the "K-21" was filled out neatly in one handwriting. At the same time, for some reason, he did not report that he had never seen the "Tirpitz" logbook. And no one had ever seen it. And such a medical fact as the end of the approach to PQ-17 is explained by the fact that it shied away from the English plane. Suddenly got scared. Gentlemen are taken at their word.

[Grancer81]

The plane was simply from an aircraft carrier... By the way, no one saw any traces of torpedo hits on the Tirpitz either.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Grencer81

It's just that the plane was from an aircraft carrier...

No, Tovi's compound was very far to the west.
As already mentioned, it was an ordinary Soviet Il-4.

[Aviator_]

By the way, no one saw any traces of torpedo hits on the Tirpitz either.

And no one has ever seen its bottom.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

And no one has ever seen its bottom.

Whoa? .. :)

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

And no one saw him at all.

And now it's completely freely available: read it as much as you want... :)

[Aviator_]

And now it's completely freely available: read it as much as you want... :)

This is, of course, true, but Anne Frank's diary, written in 1942 with a ballpoint pen, is also in the public domain.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

Of course it is,

An example of a clean copy of the ZhBD page in the attachment...
Whether to believe it or not is your personal business.

Quote: Aviator_

Only Anne Frank's diary, written in 1942 with a ballpoint pen

What's the problem?
The ballpoint pen as such was invented and produced before WWII...

[Aviator_]

Invented in Brazil, but its presence in Anna during WWII causes some confusion. And as for mass production - only since the 50s, after the design was perfected.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

It was invented in Brazil, but its presence in Anna's possession during WWII raises some eyebrows.

If we are talking about a modern type of ballpoint pen, it was invented in Hungary in 31, patented there in 38, and re-patented in Argentina in 43.
In addition, Parker (1904) and Raisbnrogoff (1916) proposed their own ballpoint pen designs. During WWII, the British supplied the RAF with ballpoint pens, since fountain pens did not work under reduced pressure...

[Aviator_]

Yeah. And Anne Frank in the Netherlands was also supplied by the British.

[Calm_type]

There are only two sheets of paper written in pen. And everyone knows that they were written in 1960 by people who were studying the diary.

[Tests]

Aviator (Sergey), respected, did anyone or anything prevent Mr. Morozov from filing a statement with the Prosecutor General's Office of the Russian Federation with an official statement about the possible theft of the submarine's logbook? I don't know - I don't know, judging by his activity, he is alive and well today... And the history of the Russian Federation knew "General Dima"... To conduct an examination of the paper composition of the pages and cover of the logbook, the chemical composition and time of application of the dye to the sheets, to determine whether the logbook was subjected to artificial aging of the paper - this does not take very long. And to conduct graphology - even faster, because in various documents there are plenty of handwriting samples of the people who filled out the logbook.

[Aviator_]

Do you seriously believe that a writer who lives off the circulation and quantity of printed sheets will conduct an expert assessment? I wrote only what Morozov should have written for the sake of the purity of the experiment, whether he personally saw Tirpitz's journal or not. And not in Vika, but in reality.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

I wrote only what Morozov should have written for the purity of the experiment, whether he personally saw Tirpitz's journal or not. And not in Vika, but in reality.

I definitely saw the film copy from NARA...

[Aviator_]

I definitely saw the film copy from NARA...

What stopped him from writing about it? Then his arguments would have become more convincing.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

What stopped him from writing about it? Then his arguments would have become more convincing.

If it was a book, then you just need to look at the bibliography, perhaps he is mentioned there.

[Aviator_]

This is a book. There is no mention of it in the bibliography. Morozov does not write at such a level. He takes gentlemen at their word. There are many of them now, and Morozov is not the worst author. He has a lot of interesting things.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Aviator_

This is a book. There is no mention of it in the bibliography.

Which one exactly, can you tell me?

[Aviator_]

I can't tell you. It's big, hardcover. I leafed through it at Dom Knigi, but didn't buy it.

[Tests]

Aviator_(Sergey), I seriously believe that thefts from museums and archives of the Russian Federation were, are and will be... If you read my comment carefully, I did not write a word about whether Mr. Morozov will or will not conduct any of the examinations that I described. He was not taught this. He did not receive permission to independently conduct these examinations. Devices and instruments, consumables, blank forms of conclusions and expert signatures for conducting these examinations, at the places of residence, stay and work of Mr. Morozov, are unlikely to be found.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Morozov hardly looks at Wikipedia, but he gets it from German archives. By the way, many microfilms from German Navy archives are freely available, I watched it myself, it's a pity that I don't know German, it's difficult and takes a long time to read with a translator, and I didn't really need it anyway

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

By the way, many microfilms from the German Navy archives are freely available.

The NARA website contains almost all microfilms and photocopies.
On the Bundesarchiv website - for now only partially, since they are rescanning them from scratch.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Aviator_

And such a medical fact as the end of the approach to PQ-17 is explained by the fact that it shied away from the English plane.

Just above:

Quote: Macsen_Wledig

17.28. The convoy is very thin...
19.25. Radio interception by the onboard RTR group, probably a message from K-21
19.40. Radio interception of the onboard RTR group about the location of the detachment, probably from the Il-4
20.10. Radio interception by the onboard RTR group of a message from Murmansk about the composition, location, course and speed of the detachment.
20.33. RDO from the "North" group with the crossing of the "Ansheikn" message.
21.47. RDO from the "North" group: KR KR "Stop!"

That is, according to German data, the convoy dispersed. After this, the Tirpitz's RR intercepted three messages in a row about the discovery of a German KUG.
The operation loses its meaning: the secrecy of the exit is broken, chasing single TRs on the LK takes too long and means an inevitable meeting with the long-range cover group of the CON.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: Alexey RA

Well... compared to the Yankees, Soviet torpedoes were simply magnificent.

There were defects in both German and all torpedoes at the beginning of combat operations. But the Yankees and Germans then produced a lot of already tested new torpedoes, and Soviet submariners fired a lot of pre-war torpedoes with all defects. And I will not remember the acoustics, radars and devices of the Yankees.
Not to mention the theaters of combat operations of Soviet submarines - these internal tiled seas (the Baltic and Black) are stuffed with mines.
There was more water there.
Not to mention the basing of Soviet submarines in the Baltic - in one narrow bay of which the Germans easily locked up for a long period.

[Kostadinov]

Operation Rösselsprung was cancelled after the German force was successively detected by submarine K-21, reconnaissance aircraft Il-4 and submarine Unshaken. After the German RR intercepted the third consecutive message about the detection of a German KUG, as well as receiving information about the dispersal of the PQ-17 KON, Raeder decided to terminate the operation.

Well - then K-21 + one Il-4 + a British submarine disrupted the battleship's exit. At the same time, K-21 was the first to detect the battleship and its escort. An indisputable operational success.
The disbandment of the convoy was unlikely to lead to the return of surface ships to base - rather the opposite.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Kostadinov

The disbandment of the convoy was unlikely to lead to the return of surface ships to base - rather the opposite.

Nope. The dissolution of the KON means that instead of "slaughtering a flock of sheep," German ships will have to chase each sheep individually. With inevitable consequences in the form of a delay in the operation, the dispersal of the German KUG, and the arrival of "shepherds with dogs" - the long-range cover group of the KON and cruisers.

[Yuras_Belarus]

"In fact", "in reality"... And who are these "in fact" and "in reality"? Why should I believe and trust them? Aren't they rezuns?

[Boris_B]

A shameful libel! Shameful not for the author, everything is clear with him. This liberal worked hard for his silver coins. Shame for the portal. Who and why allows it to be turned into a garbage dump for such garbage? The mechanics of lies are trivial. Such "truth lovers" who "will find dirt everywhere" dump a stinking pile on the table with an invitation "let's dig into the details". Any facts for any side in the war can be dug up in abundance. Most of them can neither be verified nor refuted. But those who really need to cook up a propaganda article will always find or compose a tendentious selection. The goal of such articles is not to understand the facts, but to inject a portion of poison into public discourse, to shake the Overton window...
Just one question about the article: Cui prodest? And that's rhetorical...

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Whose silver pieces are these? Aren't they yours? I didn't receive them then.

[Boris_B]

If my name were George Soros or Richard Moore, I'd take that question as a legitimate complaint. What, bad boy, did they underpay for the cookies and jam?
In fact, I don't see much difference between an unprincipled hired scribbler who is ready to mold a lying libel out of shit for money to denigrate my country, and his clients - ideological, convinced Russophobes. I don't know and don't want to figure out to what extent the author, whom I deeply disrespect, belongs to the first or the second. Most likely, he is both.
By throwing mud at the heroes of the Great Patriotic War, the author becomes an accomplice, an accomplice of those with whom they fought: Dennits, Guderian, Hitler.
And I am on the other side. I am with Lunin, Marinesko, and millions of other heroes who fought for my country. And I consider all those who try to defame their memory to be complete scum and scoundrels.

[Macsen_wledig]

Reconstruction of the attack on the Tirpitz by the submarine K-21

The author is funny... :)
Drawn something on his knee.
Probably the official scheme or reconstruction of Morozov based on our and German data does not fit into the concept.

[Chack wessel]

Quote: “Marinesko’s next victory was the sinking of the medical transport “Steuben” on February 10, which was escorting a destroyer and a torpedo boat.”
.... To hell with such "ambulance transport"! Ambulance transport has no right to go with a convoy. If there is a convoy, then it is a legitimate military target.

[torbas41]

"Following in the protection of the only destroyer with a non-working hydroacoustic station. The enemy did not pursue the boat" I wonder where the author of this libel could have known about such shortcomings on the ships of the Kriegsmarine, I think only from the propaganda speeches of Goebbels, then why is this name not in the list of used literary sources. Alexander Ivanovich Marinesko pretty much annoyed the sausage makers. They still can't forget, that's why they throw mud at him.

[Pasha Novik]

I would like to remind the author of the article about administrative and criminal liability for falsifying historical information and distorting facts about the role of the USSR in the victory over German fascism in the Great Patriotic War.

[Sergey_Kokorin]

The author is apparently haunted by the fame of the "Ogonyok" magazine of the bastard Vitaly Korotich.

[Seal]

"Wilhelm Gustloff" at the time of its sinking was still in the Kriegsmarine, albeit as an auxiliary vessel, but in the Kriegsmarine. Boarding passes for it were issued with the signature of "Command of the Second U-boat Training Unit".
Here is a preserved boarding pass, two in fact. Its owner, Käthe Kraus from Adolf-Hitler-Strasse 69 in Gotenhafen, worked as what we would call a civilian employee in the Kriegsmarine, an assistant to someone from the not so important leadership of the local Kriegsmarine. In 1945, at the age of 38, she received these boarding passes (according to her, for herself and her mother, and for her mother she was supposed to fill out herself, but put it off until later, and left it blank) for evacuation on the liner Wilhelm Gustloff. However, as she recalled, due to the large number of "top secret" documents that the Germans were trying to destroy, she decided to stay to help her colleagues cope with this task, and then board the liner that was leaving later. This decision saved her life, and she also saved the unused boarding passes.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Seal

At the time of its sinking, the Wilhelm Gustloff was still part of the Kriegsmarine, albeit as an auxiliary vessel, but part of the Kriegsmarine.

In '45 it wasn't even a hospital.
From 22.09.39 - Hospital ship D (Lazarettschiff D)
From 20.11.40 - floating barracks (Wohnschiff) of the 2nd submarine training division (2. U-Lehrdivision)
From 05.43 to 30.01.45 - floating barracks (Kasernenschiff) of the 2nd training division of submarine navigation.
I have no idea what the difference is between a floating barracks (Wohnschiff) and a floating barracks (Kasernenschiff). :)

[lynnot]

A Wohnschiff is usually a stationary blockship connected to shore communications and used as a barracks for personnel. A Kasernenschiff is more of a supply vessel or military transport designed for the temporary accommodation and movement of personnel. Such are the subtleties of the classification of floating barracks...

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Lynnot

Such are the subtleties of classification of floating barracks... hi

Thank you, interesting fact...

[Beaver]

Goodbye, channel. Let them read you Ukrainians

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Then piss off. Not a great loss.

[Klausp]

It's too early to give up, comrade! There's no need to give up at all. We'll adjust it now. We'll send the material to RKN, we'll see the reaction.

[ROM76K.]

Liberals...how they shake, just at the mention of the USSR and the Soviet people who selflessly defended the Motherland.

[ROM76K.]

Another boy Kolya.

[S. Viktorovich]

Mr. Klimov's school? Where have we gone?

[Seal]

Quote: Macsen_Wledig

I have no idea what the difference is between a floating barracks (Wohnschiff) and a floating barracks (Kasernenschiff).

Hmm, perhaps a Wohnschiff is a vessel used for accommodation in regular cabins, without any modification to the vessel.
And Kasernenschiff is the same ship, but on which, in order to increase the number of sleeping places, some alterations were made (for example, cabins were combined; from, say, the music room, they made a living quarters).
IMHO, of course.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Seal

IMHO, of course.

As an option, but there is no information about alterations: there is simply an indication of a change in classification.

[lynnot]

IMHO, of course.

These are different floating barracks. A Wohnschiff is usually a blockship in a stationary berth, connected to shore communications and used as barracks for personnel. A Kasernenschiff is a supply vessel or military transport designed for temporary accommodation and transportation of personnel.

[Tailpipe]

The whole opus is full of the words "in fact" and "absolute lie", typical of the liberal-minded publications of the early 90s. The question is, where did you, my dear sir, get the absolute truth and knowledge of how it was "in fact"? It all came from the same place - from a whole bunch of liberal pipifax! It's somehow doubtful that someone would make heroes out of nothing during the war, when you could easily end up on trial for false information!

[WapentakeLokki]

the author of course did ... hm work.. and even managed to justify.. but why were the commanders from the Soviet submarine fleet taken (well, and boatmen with torpedo bombers to boot), and where are the "knights of the Kriegsmarine", and the Japanese submariners (fans of first picking up crews from sunken ships and then having fun with katanas and other cold steel), and the American submariners (off the top of my head, Dick Kane personally shot down boats from sunken ... Maru with a Tommy gun).. but THIS did not attract the author, but the tale of the lying and bloody Russians is just the thing.. maybe it's enough to stir up the past.. why did the mattress makers from their "Day of Shame" cook up a blockbuster Pearl Harbor, and the same Japanese are making films about kamikaze (and not, for example, about Unit 731).. the author wrote all this ... nonsense based on the call of the heart (or someone gave him $$$).. and yes, you can argue on any topic, but the author, have you read about the medical transports on the Black Sea (and they went with red crosses on board, filled with wounded) and all the same they were sunk by lyufts and then finished off with onboard weapons floating ... dude, you know, I read one interview and there a veteran was asked what feelings they experienced in 1945 when they found out that their comrades burned Dresden with all its inhabitants .. and you know, dude, the veteran said .. a feeling of JOY and SATISFACTION .. and after everything that Nazism brought to our land, he quacked something about ... one thing I can say is that it is NOT ENOUGH that we cleaned up Germany if today panzers are crawling across OUR LAND again and rockets made in German are falling on our cities ..
p.s.. and if anyone knows the author or where this parvdo..asshole lives.. don't be lazy, write down the hot ones.. and for me and for my ancestors and for all of our Russia!!!

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

The author writes the truth, and his late father, an officer and holder of military orders, received personal gratitude from Comrade Stalin. And here is some advice from an older comrade: don't spit in vain, but study history thoughtfully, no matter how bitter it may be. And the author wrote on a specific topic, not about everything in a row, as you recommend.

[WapentakeLokki]

author maybe a thousand times right but why is he so interested in the "truth" that discredits the Great Country and its Heroes.. and you are the one who is spitting saliva here.. if it itches so much in.. then look around.. there is the topic of the UPA and OUN.. there is Europe where all countries in one way or another were allies of the Third Reich.. and the Normandie-Niemen regiment and the SS division Charlemagne, how is that.. whose ally was France... and what about the supplies of fuel and other things to the Reich from the USA.. write.. investigate.. but no author(and you are with him) digging into the past of the Red Army Navy...and there is one conclusion...author-->author-->author-->author -->author a bitch on the suck of our enemies... and everything he writes is a LIE.. there is no "independent" history here man.. everything is either for my Russia or against.. and there is no third option..
p.s.. and the author's father is probably turning over in his grave and regretting that his wife didn't have an abortion.

[futurohunter]

Alexander Mitrofanov
The author writes the truth, and his late father, an officer and holder of military orders, had personal gratitude from Comrade Stalin.

Where is the evidence for all three points? So any Jew will say that he is descended from Moses, and an Arab from the Prophet Muhammad

[Alexander K]

Amazing! We know a lot of window dressing and inflated victories in the armies of other countries, but we FLATLY refuse to see it in our own. Some kind of hypocrisy. And a willingness to lie.

[Klausp]

The author of this opus is a scoundrel and a bastard, whose goal is to cast doubt on the results of the Great Patriotic War and rehabilitate fascism. The site administration, by doing nothing, contributes to the humiliation of historical truth, thereby becoming an accomplice to a serious crime.

[ada]

I was attracted by the photographs of submarine models, under which in the article there are explanatory captions saying that these are exhibits of the Marinesko Museum exhibition, but I was in the so-called Marinesko Museum, which in Soviet times was located in Liepaja (probably on the territory of the naval base - I don’t remember exactly) in the mid-80s (we stopped by during a trip to the Baltic) and I don’t remember them there, and especially light walls with modern finishing materials. . Most likely, these photographs of exhibits are modern and from another museum - "Museum of the History of the Submarine Forces of Russia named after A.I. Marinesko."
https://peterburg.guide/muzei/istorii-podvodnyh-sil-rossii-imeni-marinesko-a-i/
Oh, and I remember the fact that the head of the museum, a WWII veteran, gave us cadets a tour, and the conversations on slippery topics during this tour - too, although he explained a little shyly that - well, he was such a daredevil, a lover of a good drink and that he had one local sweetheart (either a German or some other European by nationality - I don’t remember, but somehow he focused on this), because of whom he broke a lot of things in his life, well, and he “didn’t get along” with the authorities, was often not on the boat, and at that time their state of readiness was low and required significant and, most importantly, constant efforts from the commander in organizing the work and monitoring it, well, etc. Oh, and so - everyone respected him and he was an excellent submariner.
Later, they said that they erected a monument to the S-13 crew. I dug around on the Internet and here it is (though I was not in Kronstadt later - I did not see it):
"MONUMENT TO THE CREW OF THE RED BANNER SUBMARINE S-13 AND ITS COMMANDER A.I. MARINESKO
October 04 2018
Monument to the heroic crew of the Red Banner submarine S-13 and its combat commander A.I. Marinesko.
32 years later!!!
On October 3, 1986, in the city of Liepaja, Latvian SSR, on the territory of the Submarine Base of the Soviet Navy, after the well-known ups and downs of the nationwide struggle for the honor and dignity of the legendary commander A.I. Marinesko, his legendary crew of the Red Banner submarine S-13, a MONUMENT was solemnly opened to the march of two Hymns and Banners - of Latvia and the USSR, the Sailors' Parade and the SEARCH Headquarters of the 2th school in Leningrad that arrived for the celebrations - the first monument in the country, recognized by the authorities and long-awaited by the whole country! Members of the Red Banner submarine S-189, the daughter of the commander L.A. Marinesko, the author of the monument V.S. Prikhodko, the historiographer of the submarine S-13, the writer V.S. Gemanov, the head of the school museum named after arrived at the opening of the monument. Marinesko, Zhdan E.P. with the "POISK" Staff - Commander V. Utkin (13th grade), numerous guests and the Command Staff of the submarine unit with the full complement of submarine crews! The fate of the MONUMENT, like the fate of the PLS-7 and its combat Commander, was tragic and multifaceted. In 13, it was transported to Kronstadt, where it was installed forever on May 1995, 9."
https://submarinersclub.ru/news?id=643
The further away from the war, the more abuses there are of its history.

[Jager]

Dear administration! Please check the articles of this author under Article 354.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation

...as well as the dissemination of knowingly false information about the activities of the USSR during the Second World War, about veterans of the Great Patriotic War, committed publicly, -

It's amazing how such material ended up on the site.

[Seal]

А

Quote: Lynnot

stationary blockhouse

isn't it Unterkunftsschiff?

[nekromonger]

a fleet locked in bases must somehow justify its existence, hence all these additions that allow one to receive bonuses and awards

[Illanatol]

Quote: nekromonger

a fleet locked in bases must somehow justify its existence,

The fleet, locked in their bases, still conducted combat operations. Yes, even passing through the anti-submarine barrier was already on the verge of a feat, given the degree of risk. But submarines still went out to sea and sank enemy ships and vessels. And it is not for button-pusher on cozy sofas to judge the combat work of our sailors.

[Tests]

necromonger (necromonger), my dear, have you read or heard anything about the naval bases in Poti, Yokanga, Vladivostok, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky? Do you know anything about the Belomorsk and Novaya Zemlya naval bases? At which bases was the railway and coastal artillery of the USSR fleets locked up and until what date? And was the naval aviation also locked up in the naval bases?

[Mikhail3]

In fact, the author's meanness simply has no measure. In the USSR, during the War, no one was credited with ANYTHING without confirmation. Nothing at all. The most that could be attributed was, having destroyed two platoons, to write "destroyed up to a company of the enemy." This did not work every time, but it worked. That's all.
All data was checked by intelligence, and repeatedly. Often the interval between the battle and the victory being counted reached six months. The person had already died, and the check was still ongoing...
The author has collected more fiction books as "sources" and thinks that he will be able to deceive us. Liberals are such liberals...

[tolancop]

In the USSR Navy, from June 3, 1943, by order No. 0408 "ON THE ESTABLISHMENT OF MONETARY REWARDS..." monetary payments were introduced to members of ship and aircraft crews... Below is one of the points of the order:

A. TO THE PERSONNEL OF THE NAVY SHIPS:
..
b) for sinking an enemy cruiser

To the ship's commander - 20 rubles.
...
d) for sinking enemy transport

To the ship's commander - 3 rubles.
.....

According to the author of the article, such a system contributed to the falsification of the results of their attacks by a number of commanders. Naturally, it was more profitable for Marinesko to pass off the sunken transport "Steuben" as a cruiser, which promised him 3000 rubles instead of 20, and other crew members also benefited...

Pilots were also paid for downed enemy aircraft (as well as for tanks, guns, etc.). However, claims of the destruction of an enemy aircraft were not taken on faith; PROOF was required (there are plenty of descriptions by veterans of uncounted "shot downs").
And the author of this opus tries to convince readers that things were different for sailors - what you showed up for, that's what you got paid for. In my opinion, this is complete nonsense.
And one more aspect of monetary reward for destroyed enemy equipment somehow remains "behind the scenes"... Money is not glory or honor, but something very, very material. And the illegal receipt of this material is fully described by the relevant articles of the Criminal Code. So a DELIBERATE statement about a non-existent victory over the enemy could well end badly for the "winner". And I am sure that there were checks of reports of victories. People at that time were no stupider than you and me.

[Veter_73_2017]

Author, who do you work for?

[Boris_B]

And just look at his jacket. He's not shy. This is his avatar on this site and on proza.ru
https://proza.ru/avtor/aleksmitr&s=50
Correct me if you know better, but to me, this doesn't look like the shoulder straps of a naval officer.
But it is very reminiscent of the shoulder straps of a Captain 1st rank of the medical service of the US Navy (Captain, Medical Corps).
See for example here:
https://alternathistory.ru/znaki-razlichiya-admiralov-i-ofitserov-vms-ssha-1942-g-chast-1/
And he took a picture against the backdrop of the Soviet Navy flag, which he apparently perceives as a trophy.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

This is the uniform of a senior mechanic of the German shipping company where I worked. And where did you get such a desire to shit on everything? Learn the Rules of Good Form! Don't be rude!

[Boris_B]

Oh, German?... Not American?...Aaaaah.... Well, of course, that changes everything!
Well, now it is clear that the author’s desire to denigrate and spit on the feat of those who 80 years ago fought precisely with the German fleet, with the German army, is pure coincidence!
I have never had and do not have the desire to "smear everything". But I deeply despise and hate those who throw mud at the history of my country and the heroes who fought and died for it. It is especially disgusting when "Russian-speaking" people who are absolutely alien and hostile to Russia do this.
"Learn the Rules of Good Form" is a fair reproach...
My grandfather, Boris Moiseevich Fain, a senior lieutenant in intelligence, would not have approved of my behavior like this. He himself crushed such apologists of German Nazism with his bare hands in hand-to-hand combat at Stalingrad 83 years ago. That was the right, good tone!
And being rude to them is, indeed, somehow petty.

[futurohunter]

Alexander Mitrofanov
This is the uniform of a senior engineer of the German shipping company where I worked.

This explains everything even more. Apparently, the former Kriegsmarine captains have brainwashed you well. We are waiting for laudatory articles about Doenitz, Canaris and Hitler from you.

[futurohunter]

Thanks for the link! It's very telling. authorand his political preferences

[Amateur]

The slop that Mitrofanov poured on Marinesko with references to "innocent peaceful Nazis on Gustlov" deserves not discussion, but condemnation under Article 354, Part 1 "... as well as the dissemination of knowingly false information about the activities of the USSR during the Second World War, about veterans of the Great Patriotic War, committed publicly, ..."

[Illanatol]

Quote: Grencer81

So how many times have the Swedes gotten it from the Russians? Such things are not forgotten.

Themselves to blame.
The most sensible Swede, it seems, was the former French Marshal Bernadotte.

[Illanatol]

But Marinesko became famous for the “attack of the century” – the sinking of the transport “Wilhelm Gustloff”

The very fact that the Wilhelm Gustloff had weapons on board: three 105 mm guns and eight 20 mm guns (anti-aircraft, presumably), made it a completely legitimate military target.
So your crocodile tears are simply inappropriate.

[Glagol1]

The submariners followed orders. There was an order to block the German fleet in the Baltic - so the submariners fired torpedoes, cannons, laid mines. How could Marinesko know who was retreating on Gustloff? There is an order - it must be carried out. As for the sunken targets - yes, the reports and life did not match. However, I will still correct the author: all more or less large sunken targets had obituaries in the newspapers and official reports. And our services and residency monitored them. The fact that mistakes and even deliberate lies happened - yes, it is a fact, but the difference was not many-fold. Probably the simplest thing is to be smart in a warm room on the couch, but to fight underwater - that's just brutal. They still argue about Lunin, the approaches are different, but the fact that he attacked Tirpitz is a fact. It is also a fact that soon after Lunin's raid Tirpitz changed course and hurried home. Coincidence?

[Igor Belobrov]

Maybe it's time to remove this lecherous article from the VO feed.

[Severok]

How do I feel about the opus of Count Mitrofanov? - a cynical, lying libel. That's all. This graphomaniac, I'm ready to bet, would never in his life risk going out to Motovsky Gulf on what our grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought on there. He would simply chicken out.

[Alexey Alekseev_5]

Nowhere do they lie as much as in war and fishing. The Germans were not far behind either. Hartman alone reported the destruction of an entire division of the USSR Air Force. Why did the author write this libel? We won.

[Boris_B]

"We won" - that's exactly what he's going to challenge!!!
Or rather, not him, but the owners of this little Soros...
That's why all this sticky writing was needed.
It’s right there in the title of this dirty article: we must slander the Victory, slander the Heroes.
Our Victory is too much of an eyesore for the grantors of this scribbler.

[Alexey RA]

Marinesko's next victory was the sinking of the medical transport Steuben on February 10, which was escorted by a destroyer and a torpedo boat.

Ahem... even AngloWica, which is not known for its sympathies towards the communists and Russians, writes that General von Steuben was classified as an armed transport since 1944.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexey RA

Since 1944 it has been classified as an armed transport.

From 09.39 - a ship for transporting the wounded.
From 03.06.40 - floating barracks of the EKK (the unit responsible for testing ships being put into service).
From 01.03.44 - floating base of the submarine base "Danzig"
From 22.12.44 - floating base of the Submarine Command "Ost"

Official German data that no one is hiding.

[odisey3000]

What a piece of crap. The Germans, the bastards, sank our ships with red crosses, peaceful vessels. This article gives a strange feeling. What does it call for and what did the author want to tell us? That all naval officers are scoundrels and bastards... Remember the Black Sea, how the Germans sank our transports with the wounded. Somehow Mr. Mitrofanov has become very similar to Dr. Goebbels. The terrible Russians raped thousands of peaceful German women. So a new generation has grown up with its own vision of the war.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

The Germans never sank "our ships with red crosses" because during the Great Patriotic War we did not have hospital ships, we had medical transports without such crosses.

[Boris_B]

Well, you see how nicely everything has been explained!
The Germans (holy people! How dare you suspect them!) did not sink the transports with the wounded.
No crosses - no wounded.
Stalin did not sign the agreement with the International Red Cross - that means it is possible to treat prisoners worse than cattle. It's simple.
No, dear odisey3000, I think you are mistaken. This is not a new generation with its own vision of the war. This is the same Russophobic rot as in 1941.
Dr. Goebbels would now be pleased with his students and followers...

[Alexey RA]

Quote from: odisey3000

The Germans, bastards, sank our ships with red crosses

You know, this is a very delicate issue. The same "Armenia" was formally no different from the "Gustloff" - both ships were transports with anti-aircraft weapons, a military crew and were escorted.

[alstr]

If we write about submariners, then first of all we need to write about the fact that they operated in very tough conditions. It is enough to simply say that ALL types of submarines exceeded their endurance by one and a half to two times. Just imagine that M submarines usually stayed at sea not for 10 days as per the performance characteristics, but for 15-20. And this was commonplace in that period.

[Seal]

Quote: nekromonger

a fleet locked in bases must somehow justify its existence, hence all these additions that allow one to receive bonuses and awards

When our Baltic Fleet was actually locked in the Marquis Puddle by a system of German mines and barbed wire, there could be no padding.
In 1941, our submarines were attacked 26 times with torpedoes, as a result of which one transport of 3784 GRT and one German submarine U-144 were sunk. At the same time, we suffered huge losses - 27 submarines were lost (including the Latvian Ronis, Spidola and the Estonian Kalev), five of which were blown up by sailors during the evacuation from Libau: M-71, M-74, M-78, M-80, M-81, M-83, M-94, M-98, M-99, M-103, S-1, S-3, S-5, S-6, S-8, S-10, S-11, Shch-301, Shch-319, Shch-322, Shch-324, P-1, L-1, L-2.
In 1942, according to official data, the Baltic Fleet submarines sank 34 transport vessels (93 GRT) and one ship with torpedoes. Another 896 transports with a total displacement of 10 GRT and one ship fell victim to mines, and three ships (24 GRT) were sunk by artillery. In total, 330 ships were sunk and four were damaged in 1, with a total displacement of 3 and 6 GRT, and two ships (other publications claim 304 or 1942 victories). Another 47 victories claimed by Soviet submariners have not been confirmed.
Unfortunately, the fleet paid a high price for these victories: in 1942, 12 submarines of the Baltic Fleet (M-72, M-95, M-97, Shch-302, Shch-304, Shch-305, Shch-306, Shch-308, Shch-311, Shch-317, Shch-320, Shch-405, S-7) were lost in the Gulf of Finland. The submarines of the third echelon suffered especially cruelly: the enemy, having hastily strengthened its anti-submarine defense, managed to sink half of the submarines in its composition (8 out of 16).
In 1943, submarines tried to break through the barriers, but to no avail. During the attempt to break through the barriers "Nashorn" and "Zeeigel", submarines Shch-323, Shch-408, Shch-406, S-9 and S-12 were lost. During the entire campaign of 1943, submarines of the Baltic Fleet carried out only two torpedo attacks, which were unsuccessful.
1944 - until Finland left the war, everything was the same, only they no longer tried to break through.
The main successes of the Baltic Fleet occurred in the final period of the war, from October 1944 to April 1945. There could have been some falsifications during this period.

[Vladimir_Kuznetsov]

After articles like these, we should expect another one, in which they will write that Hitler installed the Red Banner on the Reichstag, after which he decided to poison himself.

[futurohunter]

Just wait, in a couple of years Mitrofanov will write something like this... And even more

[Illanatol]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

The Germans never sank "our ships with red crosses" because during the Great Patriotic War we did not have hospital ships, we had medical transports without such crosses.

So what happened with "Armenia"?
There was no Red Cross? But there were hundreds of wounded right on the deck? They were hardly more difficult to spot than the "Red Cross". But that didn't stop Goering's vultures.
By the way, was the "Armenia" by any chance a medical transport ship?

And after this the Nazi survivors dare speak about the "illegal" sinking of the "Gustlav"?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

By the way, was the "Armenia" by any chance a medical transport ship?

"Armenia" was an armed transport, escorted by SKA and fighters. The same "Gustloff", only on our side.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Alexey RA

"Armenia" was an armed transport, escorted by SKA and fighters. The same "Gustloff", only on our side.

Where does this nonsense about fighters come from? How can fighters escort slow-moving transport?
Well, and a couple of boats - so-so "combat security".
If in the case of the Gustlav our submariners did not know exactly who the passengers of this ship were, then the German pilots definitely saw numerous wounded people who were right on the deck (fortunately the local climate allowed it).
In short, the analogy is so-so.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

Where does this story about fighter jets come from?

From the "Report on the results of the investigation into the causes of the death of the motor ship Armenia" dated November 11, 1941.

According to the testimony of the flight commander, Senior Lieutenant Feoktistov, he received an assignment from the squadron commander of the 32nd air regiment of the 62nd brigade - "to cover the "Armenia" from the air, staying below the clouds. He carried out this assignment exactly. The enemy aircraft was above the clouds, which is why Feoktistov's flight could not notice it in time."

When asked “why didn’t they send one plane above the clouds?” Feoktistov replied that he had orders to fly in a flight and that pilots had never flown in the clouds.

Quote: Illanatol

How can fighter jets escort slow-moving transport?

Just like they covered other ships and vessels - by cutting circles/snakes and gradually shifting as the ship/vessel moved.

Quote: Illanatol

Well, and a couple of boats - so-so "combat security".

No worse than the only "deaf" destroyer, which also lagged behind the "Gustloff".
And yes, there was only one boat. The second SKA left the ship before the agreed point, and the TSH assigned to escort did not even have time to approach.

[Illanatol]

1. That is, in fact, there was no fighter cover, since Soviet fighters could not prevent the Germans from attacking our transport. It is not surprising that it is not even known exactly who attacked the "Armenia" - the Heinkels or the Ju-87.
This is not air cover, but simply a sham.
2. But how long does a transport flight last, and how long could Soviet fighters really stay in the air? The fighters had enough fuel for 2-3 hours of flight. Well, if of course the fighters replaced each other...
3. Well, if there was only one boat, it was definitely worse than the destroyer in all respects. And who checked that the destroyer was "deaf"? According to German reports? So this is probably just an excuse for the crew's poor performance. The sonar broke down and the destroyer (one of the fastest ship classes, actually) fell behind the transport. Maybe the destroyer captain also had diarrhea?
Well, of course, no one wanted to get into trouble for such a fiasco, because you could end up in court for that. And Goebbels' propaganda would also have been embarrassed to explain the loss of such a vessel if there had not been "unfortunate circumstances."
Of course, "Ivan-Untermenschen" can achieve success only thanks to the gifts of Fortune, and in no other way.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

2. But how long does a transport flight last, and how long could Soviet fighters really stay in the air? The fighters had enough fuel for 2-3 hours of flight. Well, if of course the fighters replaced each other...

Exactly. Replacing each other in ranks. Like in the same "Verp", when, despite the presence of a squadron at the coastal airfield, there were only two pairs over the ships at a time.

Quote: Illanatol

And that the destroyer was "deaf"... who checked this? According to German reports? So this is probably just an excuse for the crew's unsuccessful actions.

The GAS on the "Löw" did not work according to German data.

The submarine's observers recorded the light of a searchlight on the horizon at a bearing of 25 degrees. Although at that moment the submarine was not in any immediate danger, at 23:10 Marinesko hurried to begin an evasive maneuver and ordered an urgent dive. Another 16 minutes passed before the sonar operator recorded the work of the enemy's sonar at a bearing of 240 degrees. Judging by the data of the opposing side, only the "Loewe" could be in that direction, which, again, if we believe the Germans, had its sonar antenna cut off when it hit an ice floe a couple of days before escorting the ill-fated "Gustloff". Obviously, that is why the destroyer did not even try to drop depth charges.

Quote: Illanatol

And the sonar broke down and the destroyer (one of the fastest classes of ships, actually) fell behind the transport.

The destroyer, with its 600-ton displacement, fell behind due to stormy weather.

Soon, unable to maintain a 12-knot speed in heavy seas and a northwesterly crosswind, the "Loewe" began to lag behind. Apparently, the destroyer's commander, Captain-Lieutenant Paul Prüfe, did not attach too much importance to this. He had no information about the presence of an aggressively minded Russian submarine in this area - the warning about the presence of the "C-13" in the area of ​​the Stolpe Bank, transmitted by the headquarters of the Gotenhafen naval base security forces, was not received by the convoy ships due to atmospheric interference. According to German data, at the time of the torpedoing of the "Gustloff", the "Loewe" was only 300-400 m away from it, which, however, is hard to believe, since it was not observed from the "C-13".

"Loewe" lagged behind so much that Marinesko was able to calmly verify the sinking of the target, ordering the dive only 6 minutes after the attack.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Alexey RA

According to the data from the opposing side, only the "Loewe" could have been in this direction, which, again, if we believe the Germans, had its sonar antenna cut off when it hit an ice floe a couple of days before escorting the ill-fated "Gustloff".

According to what was written, it is tedious to look at the German source: the antennas of the S-Herat and the GHG system had a very specific design and in order to damage them on the ice, the ship had to operate in the linear icebreaker mode.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

And Goebbels' propaganda would also have been embarrassed to explain the loss of such a ship if there had not been "unfortunate circumstances."
Of course, "Ivan-Untermenschen" can achieve success only thanks to the gifts of Fortune, and in no other way.

Well, in fact, Petersen did everything possible to facilitate the C-13's attack.

Captain Petersen, knowing that there were several more German convoys at sea, ordered the navigation lights to be turned on (it was “thanks” to them that the Gustloff was discovered at night at a great distance), and then gave the order to the destroyer Loewe to move to the ship’s stern course angles.

As a result, "Loewe" fell behind, and S-13, which did not have time to attack the enemy on a collision course, was given the opportunity to perform a tactical move so beloved by the Germans - overtaking a target in a surface position. And after an hour-long race, the submarine finally took an ideal position to attack a clearly visible target moving at a constant course and speed.

Finally, at 23:04, the "attack of the century" reaches its culmination - the submarine takes a combat course of 15 degrees, which brings it strictly perpendicular to the left side of the liner. Four minutes later, Marinesko gives the command to "fire". The distance to the target is 4,5 cables, the calculated angle of attack is 85 degrees.

All quotes are from M.E. Morozov // The death of the "Wilhelm Gustloff": truth and speculation (the article is located in Tsushima).

[Illanatol]

Quote: Alexey RA

As a result, "Loewe" fell behind, and S-13, which did not have time to attack the enemy on a collision course, was given the opportunity to perform a tactical move so beloved by the Germans - overtaking a target in a surface position. And after an hour-long race, the submarine finally took an ideal position to attack a clearly visible target moving at a constant course and speed.

"... and after an hour-long race"... holy shit. So the German destroyer couldn't catch up with the slow transport and the Soviet submarine, whose speed, one would assume, was also not high?
Well, yes, of course, the waves were big and the wind was not very favorable for the German destroyer. For some reason, the waves and wind did not prevent our submarine from sailing in the surface position.
Nothing can stop a good dancer, but even the lack of balls won't help a bad one.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

"... and after an hour-long race"... holy shit. So the German destroyer couldn't catch up with the slow transport and the Soviet submarine, whose speed, one would assume, was also not high?

Rolled Sivka steep hills. ©
In 1940, "Loewe" was reclassified as a torpedo boat, and in this class she sailed in Gotenhafen until 1945. Plus a storm.
And on the S-13, during the chase, they managed to produce 18 knots (calculated, based on revolutions) for half an hour.
This is a case where the seaworthiness of a submarine in a storm turned out to be better than that of a surface ship.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Alexey RA

And on the S-13, during the chase, they managed to produce 18 knots (calculated, based on revolutions) for half an hour.
This is a case where the seaworthiness of a submarine in a storm turned out to be better than that of a surface ship.

Rather, this achievement should be attributed not to the qualities of the ship, but to its crew.
To sail on the surface in a storm at a speed of 18 knots... impressive.
But the figurative expression “a frog in a soccer ball” would quite adequately describe what the crew members of our submarine experienced in such a situation.

[Colonel]

I haven't seen such sh.... oh, manure on the resource for a long time. Why publish such things?

[fuffi]

for money - YES
as one garbage song says

[futurohunter]

So author has long been noticed in this. Even the term "Mitrofanovism" appeared

[acetophenone]

Quote: non-primary

"Give me the media and in a few months I will turn people into a flock of sheep!"

Oh wow! It turns out that the Germans, the Ukrainians - all unwinnables? How many years have they been "irradiated"?

[futurohunter]

I don't know about the German navy, but falsifications were rampant in the Luftwaffe. All these Hartmanns and Mölders simply made up most of their "victories"

[Illanatol]

Quote: Alexey RA

The GAS on the "Löw" did not work according to German data.

Paper tolerates everything. Even if these are German reports. What, they couldn't fix the antenna in two days? Or find another destroyer without defects.

Quote: Alexey RA

The destroyer, with its 600-ton displacement, fell behind due to stormy weather.

Well, well, well. The storm did not prevent the Soviet submarine (also not a dreadnought submarine, however) from going at maximum speed in the surface position.

[Macsen_wledig]

Quote: Illanatol

What, they couldn't fix the antenna in two days?

Repairs required docking.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

And "foreign" spare parts - the ship is someone else's

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

Paper tolerates everything. Even if these are German reports. What, they couldn't fix the antenna in two days? Or find another destroyer without defects.

This is January 1945. Evacuation in the style of "grab your bags - the station is leaving". The fact that the pedantic Germans do not have a list of passengers, let alone their exact number, already says a lot.
Moreover, initially the Gustloff was supposed to be part of the CON.

According to the plan, the liner, which had left Gotenhafen even earlier, was supposed to meet the steamship "Ganza" at the above-mentioned location and then proceed as part of a convoy to Kiel. Strong waves (6-7 points) and the wind threw this vessel onto the wreck of the battleship "Schleswig-Holstein" and it damaged the rudder. After some deliberation, the commander of the "Gotenhafen security forces" Corvette Captain Wolfgang Leonhardt ordered the "Gustloff" to proceed west alone, escorted by the destroyer "Loewe" and the torpedo boat "TF 1". Soon after leaving the Danzig Bay into the open sea, the torpedo boat signaled about a leak and went back to base. The liner and the destroyer were left alone.

© Morozov
The Germans were quite short on escort ships: the cruiser Admiral Hipper, which approached the site of the sinking of the Gustloff an hour after the attack, was sailing from Gotenhafen to Kiel under the protection of a single MM.

[Illanatol]

Quote: Alexey RA

then January 1945. Evacuation in the style of "grab your bags - the station is leaving". The fact that the pedantic Germans do not have a list of passengers, or even their exact number, already says a lot.

As they say, "the law of karma worked". It is a joy that the Hans had to experience what ours experienced in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War.
Well, there's no point in blaming us. They've gone from the vaunted Ordnung to chaos - that's what they deserve. What prevented them from carrying out the evacuation earlier, a couple of months... their own arrogance and trust in their own propaganda (according to Goebbels, the Germans were still winning on the Eastern Front).

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Illanatol

As they say, "the law of karma worked". It is a joy that the Hans had to experience what ours experienced in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War.

That's true. Moreover, the "re-showing" began even earlier than 1945 - right at the beginning of the 4th year of the war, 22.06.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX, when "Bagration" began.

Quote: Illanatol

What prevented the evacuation from being carried out earlier, a couple of months... their own arrogance and trust in their own propaganda (according to Goebbels, the Germans were still winning on the Eastern Front).

Individual failures and alignment of the front line.
The Reich Minister of Public Education and Propaganda generally conjured up victory until the very end."Berlin will remain German!"©

By the way, this is an absolutely racist slogan in today's times.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

The evacuation was almost exemplary and with minimal acceptable losses. It is not our shame in the Baltics, Crimea and Sevastopol. The only exception is Odessa.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

There was no mention of stormy weather anywhere, the Gustloff was making no more than 15 knots, while the Eskas were making 18. After the English bombing, the left propeller shaft of the Gustloff was displaced and this main engine could only operate at minimum speed.

[fuffi]

Quote: Alexander Mitrofanov

And in these difficult times, and even earlier (before the discovery of oil and gas on the Norwegian shelf), fish was the main food product of the ordinary peaceful Norwegian population, and not the Germans.

oh well, it's not far from the genocide of the Norwegian people by a bloody regime. so you're worried about the enemy people?

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

It seems that Norway was an ally at that time (at least the London government).

[futurohunter]

Now you've finally told the truth. Norway was an ally of Hitler's Germany. Who supplied the Germans with heavy water for the atomic project? Was it Norway by any chance? What about the Norwegian SS Legion? Or the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division? By the way, where and by whom was it destroyed? Why did the name of the Norwegian ruler Quisling become a household name and why did they start calling traitors quislings? And the Poles had a "London government" (also traitorous). You're completely lying...
On this forum, "Mitrofanov" has also become a household name, and even the term "Mitrofanovism" has appeared...

[iommy]

Why didn't the Germans bother and without a second thought they also sank everything Soviet, why is the sinking of a medical transport with 9000 enemies something bad?

[futurohunter]

Only it wasn't a medical one. Yeah, the "medical transport" was armed several times more powerfully than the submarine that sank it.

[Macsen_wledig]

I wonder who didn’t like the fact that there were far fewer submariners who were Heroes of the USSR than holders of the Knight’s Cross?
I didn't like it so much that I even deleted the comments...

[STALKER666999]

Another piece of shit article about stretching an owl onto a globe. How much does this little piece of shit correspond to:
Article 354.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation:
This article, in particular, provides for liability for public insult to the memory of the defenders of the Fatherland or humiliation of their honor and dignity. If the actions are assessed as an insult to the memory of the heroes, then this article can be applied.

[Alexander Mitrofanov]

Accusation of treason to the Motherland fight - I have been for a long time

[Trapperxnumx]

I liked the article. It's important to know the truth, no matter how unpleasant it may be. I noticed that none of the commentators provided any other data—it was all emotion.
Thank you.

[Mekey Iptyshev]

I read the text and thought they'd cite Morozov's work. He exposed many errors on TacticalMedia. But the same channel cited examples of the Germans taking credit for victories.
It seems to me that of all the warring parties and branches of the armed forces, the biggest record holders for "victories" are the German naval pilots.

[AlexisT]

This is bullshit. I don't want to mangle the author's name, but it perfectly fits the image of a condescending attitude toward a not-quite-sane person. Calm down, citizen liberal!