Military Review

Roman Lesnevsky: Turkish march at the southern borders of Russia

123
The Middle East Shuttle Visit by Secretary of State John Kerry is another update of American foreign policy and its withdrawal from stagnation in this region. During a stop in Ankara, the US Secretary of State discussed the situation in the South Caucasus, which is in the zone of Russia's natural interests.


A few days before John Kerry arrived in Turkey, on April 3, the inauguration of the air traffic between the capital of Armenia, Yerevan and Van, located in the northeastern province of Turkey, was to take place. Official Ankara stated that it had nothing to do with it. The scant reports indicated that the negotiations on the opening of the Yerevan-Van-Yerevan flight were held between the Turkish and Armenian representatives of the business community under the auspices of the USAID, representing the interests of the US administration.

Despite the freezing of the ratification of the Turkish-Armenian protocols signed in 2009 by Ankara and Yerevan, Western donors provide financial and organizational support for the implementation of the provisions of these protocols. With the participation of a consortium of Turkish-Armenian NGOs, USAID is implementing the "SATR" project - "Support to the Armenia-Turkey Rapprochement" ("Support for the Armenian-Turkish Rapprochement"). More than 75% funding initiatives in this project come from the US and Europe. For example, this year USAID will provide a grant line in the amount of $ 1 million for the implementation of integration projects. The budget of the well-known and authoritative non-governmental organization of the Foundation for Social and Economic Research in Turkey ("TESEV"), which is a bridge between Turkish experts and political circles in the country, is formed participation of the Open Society Institute (Soros Foundation), as well as grants from World Bank, the Freedom House, the European Institute, the United Nations Development Program, the National Endowment for Democracy. The European Institute works closely with the European Commission, the European Union and the European Parliament, as well as with the administration and the US Congress.

The head of the TESEV Foundation, Ken Packer (Dr. Can Paker), is the special representative of the government and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Turkey at the Turkey-EU talks. He is a member of the board of the Istanbul consulting group "EuroHorizons", the management team of which consists of former and current European figures, former journalists of European publications, employees of research centers. EuroHorizons has a direct or indirect link with the Turkish political elite, lobbies European institutions and politicians in Turkey, and ensures their influence on the foreign and domestic policies of the Turkish government.

All these facts point to a large-scale regional action in the zone of Russian interests under the financial accompaniment of the USA and Europe.

Turkey, having assumed the functions of a local operator, NATO and the United States, in accordance with the position of the patrons, advocates the immediate withdrawal of the Syrian President from the political arena, Russia warns opponents against interfering in intra-Syrian affairs.

Along the way, Turkey, together with the West, is aggressively pushing the agenda for turning the South Caucasus and Central Asia into a transit corridor bypassing Russia.

If the Armenian-Turkish "marriage of convenience" takes place, then Armenia will gradually enter the orbit of those who are trying to oust Moscow from the zone of Russian interests - the South Caucasus and Central Asia.

For Yerevan, the game of rapprochement with Turkey seems to be a win-win, because it has the opportunity to speculate with the interests of Russia and Turkey. And the ongoing “Syrian Democratic Revolution” 2 year strengthens the intrigue in the region.

The Kremlin is not jealous of the prospect of an Armenian-Turkish rapprochement, or this jealousy hides well. The Russian military base near Turkey and the possession of some assets of the Armenian economy, apparently, give confidence to the Kremlin that Yerevan will not go far. Or in Moscow they are convinced that in the short term, there will be no Armenian-Turkish marriage.

However, the thoroughness and consistency of the West in solving problems of any complexity should not be underestimated. Take, at least, a rudimentary project, in which, by the way, there is no Russia - the Black Sea Silk Road (Black Sea Silk Road), in which Turkey, Armenia, Georgia and Greece participate. The project is funded by the European Union and USAID. The composition of the participants and their geography allow the West to quickly increase this seemingly "fluffy" project with geopolitical muscles if they wish.

According to Western experts, before 2015, important events are expected in the relations of Turkey and Armenia, which ultimately should lead to the normalization of relations. On the other hand, it is not known whether the Assad government will stand in Syria. If pro-American groups come to power in Damascus, a strategic breach will arise for Russia in the area south of the North Caucasus. So, with the development of events undesirable for Moscow on the path of a geopolitical draft from the Syrian crater, there may not be a reliable valve, up to the Greater Caucasus Mountains. And then the issue of maintaining stability in the North Caucasus will be on the agenda.

Last year, Moscow banned activities on its territory by USAID and severely restricted the activity of the National Democratic Institute (NDI), headed by former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, due to the interference of these structures in the political processes in the country. As a result, NDI was forced to significantly limit its presence in Russia.

After the recent steps of Moscow, these players have obvious problems with excess adrenaline and bile. In this scenario, Western grandmasters are likely to try to squeeze the most out of the position and pieces on the political chessboard.
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  1. Nesvet Nezar
    Nesvet Nezar April 11 2013 09: 15
    15
    I don’t need a Turkish coast and I don’t need Africa .... (C)
    1. vadimus
      vadimus April 11 2013 09: 21
      +8
      And they didn’t want the Turkish gambit?
      1. v53993
        v53993 April 11 2013 09: 51
        14
        Is a Turkish gambit like a knight's head move in Russian? Then I respect.
        1. Atlon
          Atlon April 11 2013 10: 45
          12
          Quote: v53993
          Is a Turkish gambit like a knight's head move in Russian? Then I respect.

          No ... It's like that ...
      2. Andrey57
        Andrey57 April 11 2013 10: 13
        10
        Turkey will receive its "Gambit" in full, and what Joseph Vissarionovich could not do in August 1945 - to gouge Turkey, tear it apart and take the straits, we will do it a little later, we will give Constantinople to the Greeks, it is a pity that we will not do without war .. ... hi
        1. Thunderbolt
          Thunderbolt April 11 2013 11: 57
          +5
          Quote: Andrey57
          could not do in august 1945
          Indeed, in May 1944, the Primorsky Army (3 corps, 2 separate divisions, 2 separate naval rifle brigades, tank, artillery, engineer, aviation formations and units), after the complete liberation of Crimea, is withdrawn from the 4th Ukrainian Front and is directly subordinate to the Headquarters .The whole war remains in the Crimea. With Romania and Bulgaria occupied by Soviet troops, the Crimean Tatars were evicted, Turkey takes a position of neutrality, and the Black Sea Fleet dominates the sea. I suspect that it was "held back" in case of the seizure of the straits. But the geopolitical mosaic developed like this that this bold plan was not realized.
          1. Gari
            Gari April 11 2013 13: 09
            +7
            During the negotiations in Potsdam in July 1945, Stalin insistently demanded to transfer part of the Italian fleet, which was assigned to the Soviet Union for reparations, until August 1, 1945. Such a rush somewhat puzzled the Western allies. Everything was clarified after the report of American intelligence to President Truman. It said that in Georgia, Armenia and Iranian Tabriz, there is an ever-increasing redeployment of Red Army units and their advance to the Turkish border. In addition, American intelligence officers reported that at the industrial facilities, transport and communications enterprises in cities in eastern Turkey, increased sabotage activity of Armenian and Kurdish rebels was noted.
            The haste of Stalin with a part of the Italian fleet was clear. Having entered the Bosporus and Dardanelles, warships could provide support from the west to advancing units of the Red Army from the east, shell Istanbul and provide for a landing there
            The US intelligence report dispelled the last doubts of the American president. Only an atomic bomb could stop Stalin, and Truman ordered the bombing of Japanese cities to be prepared.
            According to the recollections of some members of the Politburo, when Stalin was informed about the results of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he paced around the office for a long time, trying to light his extinct pipe - the matches were breaking. After a long pause, he said: “The campaign to Istanbul is canceled ... Until better times. And let the Turks forever thank the Japanese who sacrificed themselves for them. All! Kurchatova to me! ”
            In 1946 and 1947 Stalin asked the Allies the question that Turkey should return the territory of Western Armenia to the USSR. But naturally they did not receive support from them.
            In a private conversation, Marshal of the Soviet Union Ivan Baghramyan once said: “When there was a chance of restoration of historical justice in the Armenian issue, the Western powers, shaking with a nuclear baton, took Turkey under their protection. Were it not for this, the problem of Western Armenia would be solved in a matter of days. ”
            1. Krapovy32
              Krapovy32 April 11 2013 14: 51
              +7
              Gari

              And the Turks are so soon jumping when the pack of fanatics begins to stir up water in Turkey itself. There was nothing to arm. A bonfire from a fire in Syria will creep into Turkey soon.hi
        2. FC SKIF
          FC SKIF April 11 2013 12: 28
          11
          Turkey overestimates its strength. Literally all neighboring countries feel its pressure. We don't have to talk about Syria and Iraq, an interesting knot is being tied with Iran (I mean the possible conflict between Baku and Armenia or Tehran), economic expansion in Georgia and the Balkans, eternal "graters" with the Greeks and Cypriots. One can recall the support of the Chechen separatists, the "games" in Crimea, as well as the apologies of the Jews. Here's someone who, and these guys will then try to remove 7 skins from the Turks for the apology.
        3. xetai9977
          xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 16
          0
          Are you serious?
        4. Gari
          Gari April 11 2013 13: 18
          +5
          If the Armenian-Turkish "marriage of convenience" takes place, then Armenia will gradually enter the orbit of those who are trying to oust Moscow from the zone of Russian interests - the South Caucasus and Central Asia.

          Bullshit
          and this is real-
          And about. On April 10, Prime Minister of Armenia Tigran Sargsyan received Chairman of the Board of the Eurasian Economic Commission Viktor Khristenko and his delegation.

          As the press service of the Armenian government told REGNUM news agency, the prospects and directions of cooperation between Armenia and the Eurasian Economic Commission were discussed at the meeting. Khristenko presented Sargsyan the processes taking place within the framework of the Customs Union, its achievements, recorded results and the legal field.

          Following the meeting, Sargsyan and Khristenko signed a memorandum of understanding between the Armenian government and the Eurasian Economic Commission.
        5. xetai9977
          xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 32
          0
          are you serious, dear? let's proceed from the realities
        6. xetai9977
          xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 34
          0
          Are you serious, dear?
        7. Nesvet Nezar
          Nesvet Nezar April 11 2013 14: 56
          -2
          Yes Yes Yes...
          - The bear is big, but we are brave and will overwhelm him.
          - What for?
          - Well, why, so that to brag to fellow villagers. So what do you take for yourself, skin or something else?
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak April 11 2013 09: 22
      26
      Quote: Nesvet Nezarya
      I don’t need a Turkish coast and I don’t need Africa ...


      I do not go out of principle. Feed a hyena attacking Syria?
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco April 11 2013 10: 06
        19
        For a long time I have been proposing to everyone to hit the Turkish tourism industry with a ruble. But there are some "patroites" who act according to the principle, I don't know anything, my hut is on the edge. It's time for the state to suggest to our tour operators to reconsider its approach to this situation. Or will our business exchange, for a ruble, and they will sell my mother?
        1. Mairos
          Mairos April 11 2013 14: 30
          +4
          They will sell. How is Lenin doing? "There is no such crime that capital would not go for the sake of 300 percent profit!"
          1. stranik72
            stranik72 April 11 2013 22: 30
            +1
            Mairos
            You need to know the primary sources, Capital Marx.
      2. xetai9977
        xetai9977 April 11 2013 14: 17
        0
        Russians have some outdated information about Turkey. This is not the same Turkey during the Russian-Turkish wars of the 18th century. Modern Turkey is a powerful power with a population of 75 million. GDP growth is 8-9% per year. And unlike Russian Turks do not consider Russians their enemies. In the courtyard of the 21st century. With such criteria, and the French, Germans, Finns, Japanese, Swedes will enlist in your enemies. Who will? What happened was. Of course, the People should not forget their history. But to classify the nations with which they fought 200,300,500 years ago- this is stupid. According to your logic, then the French should not maintain relations with the Germans and the British, they always fought !!!
        1. smile
          smile April 11 2013 19: 07
          11
          xetai9977
          If the notorious Turks would not take an overactive role in financing, training, arming and rehabilitating Nokhchi people (almost like the Syrians have now), if we wouldn’t catch the Turkish special services personnel officers and loudly, they would give them to you under television cameras if they wouldn’t open the networks of emissaries in Bashkiria and Tatarstan propagating the ideas of the Great Turan ... and if only that ... we would love to believe you ... and so, some kind of strange friendship for you. no such enemies are needed with such friends ... one story with the capture of our ferry by subsequently issued Czechs what it costs .... well, admit, you just don’t know about it, or try to hope for Russian lack of remorse and magnanimity?
          1. xetai9977
            xetai9977 April 11 2013 20: 20
            -1
            SMILE, mutual claims will not lead to anything good. The Turks may recall the support of the Kurds from the PKK. Each state has its own interests. But this does not mean that they will always remain enemies.
            1. smile
              smile April 11 2013 20: 59
              +6
              xetai9977
              I agree. But I answered in reply (I repeat - in the ANSWER to unreasonable accusations) to your strange words about our unmotivated aggression .. if you noticed .... :)))) and even more I would agree with you if the Turkish the services have tempered their ardor now, at the present time, and the government has become preoccupied with Russophobic sentiments among the people, and has not kindled them ... somehow read excerpts from your history textbooks for high school ... well. you don’t know what I found there ... just don’t have to write now about illiterate translation and misunderstandings, all adults are here ... :)))
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny April 12 2013 00: 05
            +1
            But there are no Russian intelligence agents in Turkey? But didn’t Russia support the Kurds?
            1. ayyildiz
              ayyildiz April 12 2013 02: 24
              -2
              Everything is allowed to the Russians, but not to the Turks! Double standard! hi
    3. Nevsky
      Nevsky April 11 2013 10: 29
      +4
      In this scenario, Western grandmasters are likely to try to squeeze the most out of their position and pieces on the political chessboard.


      Zadolbalo this world behind the scenes with its multi-paths, it's time to put an end to this !!! angry
  2. JonnyT
    JonnyT April 11 2013 09: 25
    17
    What wedding? Have Armenians forgotten Turkey's "kindness" in the past?
    This damn mattress still adds oil. Wherever they arrive, they will do muck everywhere, the parasite is direct!
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak April 11 2013 09: 47
      +8
      Quote: JonnyT
      Have Armenians forgotten Turkey's "kindness" in the past?


      There is a good saying lis n \ 'ont hen appris, ni hen oublie. - they have not forgotten anything and have not learned anything.
      1. Artmark
        Artmark April 11 2013 12: 33
        +3
        THEY have not forgotten and cannot but not learn !!! And the fact that the author writes about (the wedding) is his fantasy, this cannot be! At least this cannot happen in the next 100 years hi
    2. Corsair
      Corsair April 11 2013 10: 27
      12
      Quote: JonnyT
      This damn mattress still adds oil. Wherever they arrive, they will do muck everywhere, the parasite is direct!
      That is the essence ...
      1. Corsair5912
        Corsair5912 April 11 2013 10: 53
        +6
        Colleague! This is an American corpse-eater, a symbol of their army and navy, against the background of a state symbol, a torn ass with acne.
    3. Artmark
      Artmark April 11 2013 12: 26
      +5
      Armenians have not forgotten anything! they will not forget anything !! stop
  3. Vanek
    Vanek April 11 2013 09: 47
    +6
    And this one in Turkey didn’t break anything? Well there, arm, leg ..... neck? Not?

    Trouble.
  4. smel
    smel April 11 2013 09: 48
    +7
    We must firmly remember that any gestures of the American hydra harm Russia and its allies. Well, if Turkey also joins this work, wait for trouble. It seems to me that it is necessary to more persistently uphold and defend interests in Middle Asia, and everywhere where there is even the slightest interest in political, economic, etc. Compromisers who are hard at shaking the sweaty palm of Estonian colleagues, it's time to dump history. Yes, it didn’t stop asking would be about their personal interests and the interests of those around them for treason
  5. Ascetic
    Ascetic April 11 2013 09: 50
    14
    America still recruits war slaves, the more they make it easier to rake the heat with their own hands, organizing color revolutions and wars. The methods are the same from economic and financial pressure turning into threats of military intervention to scattering cheese into the mousetraps of numerous NGOs operating throughout to the world.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak April 11 2013 09: 58
      13
      Quote: Ascetic
      America still recruits war slaves


      But what about.

      American dream - War with China until the last Russian soldier.
    2. Sirocco
      Sirocco April 11 2013 10: 03
      +5
      You know, I repeat this phrase from A.V. Suvorov. but it is relevant.Raking heat with the wrong hands after it burns. Only when will this happen? People are not waiting.
    3. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 12: 58
      +4
      Quote: Ascetic
      America still recruits war slaves

      And what was the problem with the National Democratic Institute in Russia, what kind of scandal?
      we also started problems with them apparently!
      1. datur
        datur April 11 2013 13: 56
        +6
        [quote = Yarbay] [quote = Ascetic] America still recruits war slaves [/ quote]
        And what was the problem with the National Democratic Institute in Russia, what kind of scandal?
        Apparently, we started having problems with them too-- but when they give you a “flower revolution” yes arrange, then you will know !!! laughing
  6. pa_nik
    pa_nik April 11 2013 09: 52
    0
    Once again, one can be convinced of the cyclical nature of the development of the world and proverbs, such as "Everything returns to normal." Armenians and Turks sometimes genocide each other, sometimes kiss on the gums ... And the American smiling jackal is right there with his "peaceful" ideas. hi
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 10: 14
      -9
      Turks treat Armenians normally. The Armenians have nothing to do, how to beat everyone with their pages of history. According to the Turks, the Armenians themselves were to blame for the conflict - they decided to come under the rule of the Russians and were the first to start killing Turkish officials, policemen and soldiers. The Turks answered. Tough, of course, but what else do empires do? There was no national / chauvinist / religious motive in the actions of the Ottomans. From their bell tower, it was an anti-terrorist operation, "establishing constitutional order." The Armenians, instead of mending relations with Turkey and the Turkic world in general, of which she was a part of a fair amount of centuries, starting from the Hunnic times, are trying to make some kind of gesheft on history, apparently, how Israel wants Turkey to pay a n-th amount in reality poor Armenia. Only the Turks will never agree to this in their lives. Brush it off and won't even listen.
      I often visited Armenian sites before - there is so much hysteria pouring into Turkey that it seems that this is what they live on (plus anti-Azerbaijani rhetoric).
      The Turks are not against establishing normal relations with Armenia, but they still will not be very interested in this process, until they dissolve the Karabakh issue with the Azeris. It’s clear that Ankara’s sister Baku is much closer than hysterical Yerevan.
      In general, the Turks look at Armenia as Russians from Russia to Finland - a former property that does not do much harm, but sometimes barks; they seem to have historically been "under them", but they understand that the tracks have already diverged a lot.
      And what the Americans "advise" the Turks do not care. Turkey is a country with its own political opinion.
      1. Atlon
        Atlon April 11 2013 10: 56
        +7
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Turkey is a country with its own political opinion.

        Egypt and Mubarek were also: "a country with its own political opinion." However, nothing lasts forever under the moon. Despite the fact that Mubarek was quite a pro-American leader. So without the State Department, Erdogan will not kick!

        As for Armenia, I do not want to comment, because this is a conversation for a long time. But you have a superficial knowledge of the history of Armenia. I lived there for 14 years, not everything is as simple as you described. However, as I said, I WILL NOT discuss it!
      2. Ascetic
        Ascetic April 11 2013 11: 36
        19
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        The Armenians, instead of establishing relations with Turkey and the Turkic world in general, part of which it has been a fair number of centuries, starting from the Hunnic times, are trying to make some kind of gesheft on history,


        The San Stefan Peace Treaty was not concluded by the Armenians by the way, but by the Ottomans defeated by Russia in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877–1878. So in Art.16 of this agreement For the first time, the security problem of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was formally considered, and the question of administrative reforms in Western Armenia was raised. So even then the question was precisely about SECURITY and not about any political or other rights there. By the way, the Bulgarians, despite all their political movements and vectors of orientation, still adore Skobelev, since the April uprising of the Bulgarians in 1876, which was drowned in blood in the best traditions of the Ottomans, tolerant to all the peoples of their empire. This rebellion by the way became one of reasons for the outbreak of war(the reasons there were others more related to the policies of Misty Albion).
        Everything would be fine, if only the Armenians would breathe more freely to guarantee the fulfillment of the terms of this agreement in the presence of Russian troops in Western Armenia. But it was not there that the Berlin Congress followed at the request of Britain and Austria-Hungary until hiccups feared an increase in Russian influence, and Russia was forced to make significant concessions, including 16th. which formally remained in the new treaty, but at the same time, Russian troops were withdrawn from Western Armenia. thereby Armenians lost the only real guarantee of their security. Yes, the guarantees of reforms laid down on the Turkish government and in the future, Sultan Abdul Hamid II implemented these guarantees of reforms very well and intelligibly for the Armenians (the guarantor of the eparchy is just like Yeltsin what ) In short, for the entire period 1894–96. in the ottoman empire about 300 Christians were destroyed: mostly Armenians, but also Assyrians and Greeks.
        Isn't it too high a price for the fact that the Armenians, Greeks and Bulgarians betrayed the sun-faced and kindest Turkish sultan? inflicting a blood grievance on the caring and kind Turks, deciding to seek protection from the bloody Russian tsar (who constantly dipped the sultans in their own .. in numerous wars) in the "prison of peoples" of colonial Russia?
        Well, then there were Young Turk democrats who in practice were no different from the great and sun-like sultans. Well, the PMV gave these young Turks the opportunity to finally solve the Armenian question, because those ungrateful did not calm down and even prepared an uprising in the Turkish rear. These are the events of 1915. mostly which Armenians describe as genocide. There were events of the 20s
        when the intricacies of the policy of the Bolsheviks and Young Turks against Dashnak Armenia also did not turn out to be good for the Armenians themselves. And only the accession of the modern territory of Armenia to the USSR allowed the Armenians to at least consider themselves safe.
        The conclusion that the Armenian politicians and historians make and with which basing on the facts can be accepted is obvious. under three different and opposing Turkish regimes, the genocidal policy towards the Armenians was implemented consistently and mercilessly.
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic April 11 2013 11: 40
          +8
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Apparently, how Israel wants Turkey to pay the nth amount of really impoverished Armenia.

          Well, if Germany pays for the Holocaust, why not Turkey and its former ally pay for the genocide? Moreover, the Armenians as an ethnic group were not likely to be part of the Turkic world, but were closer to the Jews? Even the history of the two peoples since biblical times has common features, and modern politics has some similarities to take, for example, the presence of a powerful lobby in leading countries. And Karabakh-Palestine, also by comparing the history of the issue, you can find similar points of contact.

          Quote: Marek Rozny
          . Turkey is a country with its own political opinion.


          Wow, who would argue, especially given the historical experience of manipulating the Anglo-Saxons of proud and independent Turks to involve them in all sorts of wars and coalitions beneficial to the British. This continues to this day, at the forefront of the valiant Turks and American bankers will have a real gesheft behind them.
          1. Atlon
            Atlon April 11 2013 13: 17
            +6
            Quote: Ascetic
            Moreover, the Armenians as an ethnic group were not likely to be part of the Turkic world, but were closer to the Jews?

            Neither one nor the other! I didn’t want to discuss it, but I was forced ... To begin with, the ancient Armenian kingdom of Urartu existed before the Turkish tribes appeared (not Turkey, but nomad tribes). Yerevan was founded in 782 BC. uh, and now he is over 2700 years old !!! And the Ottoman Empire appeared only in 1299. The age difference is almost four times! In addition, google the size and shape of the kingdom of Urartu during its heyday.
            1. xetai9977
              xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 22
              -1
              Quote: Atlon
              Quote: Ascetic
              Moreover, the Armenians as an ethnic group were not likely to be part of the Turkic world, but were closer to the Jews?

              Neither one nor the other! I didn’t want to discuss it, but I was forced ... To begin with, the ancient Armenian kingdom of Urartu existed before the Turkish tribes appeared (not Turkey, but nomad tribes). Yerevan was founded in 782 BC. uh, and now he is over 2700 years old !!! And the Ottoman Empire appeared only in 1299. The age difference is almost four times! In addition, google the size and shape of the kingdom of Urartu during its heyday.

              NORMAL ARMENIAN TALES. Megalomania
              1. Atlon
                Atlon April 11 2013 14: 14
                +5
                Quote: xetai9977
                NORMAL ARMENIAN TALES. Megalomania

                Well, judging by your flag, I did not expect another. I am not Armenian, I am Russian, but I cannot agree with you. Learn the story.
            2. alexander rus.
              alexander rus. April 11 2013 14: 01
              -5
              Something you do not agree with arithmetic according to Evreanom.
              1. Atlon
                Atlon April 11 2013 14: 19
                +4
                Quote: alexander rus.
                Something you do not agree with arithmetic according to Evreanom.

                Yerevan was founded in 782 BC. uh, and now him: 782 + 2013 = 2795
                The Ottoman Empire appeared only in 1299: 2013 - 1299 = 714
                The difference in age is almost four times: 2795/714 = 3,91

                What exactly do you think does not converge ???
                1. alexander rus.
                  alexander rus. April 11 2013 15: 36
                  +6
                  I apologize. To blame. This is my failure with arithmetic.
                2. Yarbay
                  Yarbay April 11 2013 16: 13
                  -4
                  Quote: Atlon
                  Yerevan was founded in 782 BC. uh

                  Armenians had nothing to do with Yerevan!
                  1. Atlon
                    Atlon April 11 2013 17: 23
                    +3
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    Armenians had nothing to do with Yerevan!

                    Just like the Turks to Ararat and Lake Van? laughing
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay April 11 2013 18: 42
                      +2
                      Quote: Atlon
                      Just like the Turks to Ararat and Lake Van?

                      in 1828, when the "Armenian region" was created within the Iravan and Nakhichevan khanates, ¾ of its population were Muslims. This is confirmed by the letter of General Paskevich to the Chief of the General Staff, which contains dissatisfaction with the actions of General Krasovsky, appointed head of the "temporary administration" Irevan, and a member of this administration, Archbishop Nerses. Paskevich reproached Krasovsky in presenting Nerses with unlimited influence on all affairs, and in harmful patronage of the Armenians, while "¾ of the population of the region are Mohammedans" (V.A.Potto. Caucasian War. Persian War of 1827-1826. Volume 1828, Stavropol, 3 , pp. 1993-594).
                      Russian writer S.N. Glinka gives interesting information about the movement of Armenians from Iran towards Karabakh. The political nature of the resettlement of Iranian Armenians to the Muslim lands just captured by Russia is clearly seen in the appeal to the Persian Armenians of the active organizer of resettlement G. Lazarev: "In Erivan, Nakhichevan and Karabakh, where you choose, you will receive an abundance of grain-bearing land, partly sown, of which only a part is processed in favor of the Treasury. You are exempted for six years from all taxes and aid will be given to the poorest of you. " (S.N. Glinka. Description of the resettlement of the Armenians of Adderbidzhan in Russia. M., 1831, p.107-111). SN Glinka writes: “Armenians from various villages adjacent to Turkmenchay moved to Karabakh” (Ibid .: 48). According to his information, “in three and a half months, more than 8.000 families crossed the Araks” (Ibid .: 92). In the spring of 1828, when the stream of Armenians was moving towards Araz, Paskevich received an order to resettle the poorest in Karabakh, and this was reflected in the Russian literature of that time (Ibid .: 90-91). This is how in 1832 the Armenians made up 31,6% of the population of Karabakh, and the Muslims who retained the majority - 68,4% (Review of the Russian possessions in the Caucasus in statistical, ethnographic, topographic and financial relations. Tiflis, 1836, p. 267).
                      By the decree of Emperor Nicholas I on March 21, 1828, on the lands of the former Iravan and Nakhichevan khanates, the "Armenian region" was created: "By virtue of the treaty, prisoner with Persia, the annexation of Russia from Persia to the Khanate in all matters will henceforth be called the Armenian region and include it in our title" (Complete collection of laws of the Russian Empire. Vol. III, St. Petersburg., 1830, p. 272-273). Russian general and Georgian prince A. Chavchavadze was appointed head of the "Armenian region" (Acts of the Caucasian Archaeographic Commission. Archive of the Main Directorate of the Governor of the Caucasus. Volume VII. Published under the editorship of the chairman of the commission A.D. Berzhe. Tiflis, 1878, p. 487).
                      At the time this region was formed, 75% of its population was Muslim. If during the period of the Russian conquest 49.875 Muslims and 20.073 Armenians lived in the Iravan region, then immediately after the formation of the "Armenian region" 45.200 Armenians were resettled here from neighboring countries (Review of Russian possessions beyond the Caucasus in statistical, ethnographic, topographic and financial relations. Tiflis, 1836, p. 229). A similar situation has developed in the Nakhchivan region. By the end of the Russian occupation, 17.138 Muslims and 2.690 Armenians lived in Nakhchivan. With the liquidation of the khanate, 10.670 Armenians moved here in a short period of time. Similarly, in the Ordubad part of Nakhchivan, where originally 7.247 Muslims and 2.388 Armenians lived, 1.340 Armenians were resettled to change the ratio between them (Ibid. P. 229).
                    2. Yarbay
                      Yarbay April 11 2013 18: 42
                      +2
                      Russian researcher N.I.Shavrov published a book in 1911, in which, relying on documents, noted that in 1828-1830, 40 thousand Armenians from Iran and 84.600 Armenians from Turkey moved to the Transcaucasus, and they were resettled in the Elizavetpol and Iravan provinces , where before the number of Armenians was almost zero. N. Shavrov wrote that “out of 1 million 300 thousand Armenians living in Transcaucasia, more than a million are immigrants. We moved them here” (NIShavrov. New threat to the Russian business in Transcaucasia: the upcoming sale of Mugan to foreigners. St. Petersburg. , 1911, pp. 59-60).
                      According to the notes of the Russian general N. Dubrovin: "The population of the so-called Armenian region was significantly replenished by Armenians - immigrants from Persia and Turkey, who resettled in Russia at the same time and especially after the war in 1828 and 1829." (Collection of Acts, Part II, p. 369; V. Grigoriev, “Statistical Description of the Nakhichevan Province.” St. Petersburg, 1833, p. 125-127.76. N. Dubrovin, “History of the War,” vol. I, book 2, St. Petersburg, 1871, p. 405.).
                      If in 1832 81.610 Armenians lived in the Armenian region, of which more than 50.000 were resettled in 1828-29, then already in 1873 there were 221.191 Armenians in this region, renamed Erivan province. Thus, over forty years, the number of Armenians here has almost tripled. (SP Zelinsky “The Tribal Composition, Religion, and Origin of State Peasants.” - Code of MIEBGKZK, Volume 2, Tiflis, 1887, p. 166-170). According to rough estimates, according to Russian archives, over 19 million Armenians were resettled to the South Caucasus during the 20th and early 1th centuries.
                      Recall that the Armenians during the seizure of the Irevan Khanate by the Russian Empire were there in scanty numbers. It would be appropriate to recall that the Armenians came to Irevan and its environs after 1441, when Jahan Shah Kara-Koyunlu heeded the prayers and letters of the Armenian Catholics fleeing from the decaying Byzantine Empire and provided them with Echmiadzin-Uchkilisa as a residence.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        Marek Rozny April 12 2013 20: 41
                        +3
                        What is typical, when Azerbaijanis refer to sources and figures, there are no answers from Armenians)))) Only cons))))
                  2. ultra
                    ultra April 11 2013 20: 40
                    +3
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    Armenians had nothing to do with Yerevan!

                    And who did?
            3. Ascetic
              Ascetic April 11 2013 14: 54
              +5
              Quote: Atlon
              To begin with, the ancient Armenian kingdom of Urartu existed before the Turkish tribes appeared (not Turkey, but nomad tribes)

              What about the ancient Hyksos? Or this

              Armenians are descendants of the ten tribes of Israel
              link

              If there may be ancient ukry then why not the Armenians become Jews?

              Armenians consider their legendary ancestor Hayk, the Babylonian nobleman, who rebelled against the Babylonian king Bel. Hayk went with his son Aramenaik and 300 more men to the north. The Jewish name of the son of Armenik is also characteristic - Kadmos ("East"). Movses Khorenatsi in his history brings to us the information of the ancients that the descendants of the 2 sons of Shem were adjacent to the ancestors of Haik-Hayk. These Simovtsy joined Ike and participated in the battle against Bel.
              Assyrians - a branch of the Babylonians (Chaldeans) - the ancestors of the Jews. Movses Khorenatsi speaks of the settlement in Armenia of the Assyrians - Adramelek and Sanasar, sons of the king of Assyria Senekerim: “One of them, our brave ancestor Skyordi settled in the south-west of our country, near the borders of the same Assyria; it was sanasar. His offspring grew and multiplied and filled a mountain called Sim. Subsequently, the prominent and most important of them, having shown loyalty in the service of our kings, were awarded the dignity of Bdeash of these lands. Ardamozan settled south-east of that side; the chronicler says that the clans of Artsruni and Gnuni came from him. This is the reason we mention Senecerim. ” After the murder of their father, the sons of Sanheriv fled to the country of Ararat (II Ts. 19:37 and Isa. 37:38).

              From this it is clear that the ancestors of the Armenians were some Semites who left Babylonia in Urartu. Thus, the Armenians are not direct descendants of the Urartians, but the descendants of the Semites who mixed with the inhabitants of Urartu.
              1. Yarbay
                Yarbay April 11 2013 16: 10
                -2
                Quote: Ascetic
                What about the ancient Hyksos?

                regular myths))

                The history of the Armenian people, as, indeed, of any other ethnic group, is full of various kinds of shocks. It has very important historical-political, territorial-demographic and migration aspects regarding the stages of centuries-old and repeated migration of the ancestors of Armenians from West to East, that is, from Europe to Asia. More specifically, at the initial stage of migration processes - from the historical region of Thrace in the Balkans through Asia Minor to the Caucasus.

                The coryphaeus of Armenian studies, as subsequently the authors of the repeatedly reprinted “History of the Armenian people”, since the 1912th century wrote that in the 3th century BC in Thrace, in the Balkans, the Cimmerians appeared - one of the "peoples of the sea" according to the ancient Egyptian ethnic nomenclature. Here they came into contact with the ancestors of the Armenians, whom they took away with them to the east - to Asia Minor (Adonts N. Armenia. - Brockhaus-Efron New Encyclopedic Dictionary. St. Petersburg, 1975, Volume 12; M. Abeghyan. History of Ancient Armenian Literature. Yerevan, 14, pp. 1991-XNUMX; any publication of the History of the Armenian People, published before the collapse of the USSR in XNUMX).

                As a reference, we note: the Cimmerians lived in the vast expanses of the Northern Black Sea coast from Thrace in the west to the Caucasus in the east; cramped from the east by Scythians, they crossed the Balkans to Asia Minor, where, according to Armenian scholars, they brought with them “descendants of Hayk,” that is, the ancestors of the Armenians.

                As a result of this first, initial migration of the distant ancestors of the Armenian people, they found themselves in Phrygia, a historical region in the western part of Asia Minor. According to the testimony of the “father of history” - the famous ancient Greek author of the 180th century BC Herodotus, who himself was a native of Asia Minor, the Armenians came here from the west and, in his opinion, they are descendants of the Phrygians (Herodotus. History in nine books. I: 194, 93; III: 49; V: 52, 73; VII : XNUMX).

                The 1896th century Russian Caucasian scholar I. Chopin noted, confirming this version: “Armenians are aliens. This is the tribe of the Phrygians and Ionians who crossed into the northern valleys of the Anatolian mountains ”(Chopin I. New notes on the ancient history of the Caucasus and its inhabitants. St. Petersburg, 26, p. XNUMX).

                The famous Armenist of the 1947th century G.A. Kapantsyan writes: “Hayas-Asia - the“ motherland of Armenians ”after their migration from the Balkans - is in Asia Minor” (G. Kapantsyan, Hayas is the cradle of Armenians. Ethnogenesis of Armenians and their initial history. Yerevan , 240, p. 242, XNUMX).

                The outstanding Russian scientist and orientalist of the XX century I.M.Dyakonov also came to the conclusion that the ancient Armenian language (grabar) is Phrygian; and the Armenians - part of the Phrygians (Dyakonov I.M. Background to the Armenian people. Yerevan, 1968, p. 202-203, 212).
                The fact that the Armenians are aliens from the west, from the Balkans, that is, from the Mediterranean zone, is also evidenced by their inherent disease, referred to as periodic or Armenian medicine. This is a relatively rare, genetically determined disease that selectively affects only people living in the Mediterranean basin, especially Armenians, as well as a number of other peoples of this region (Big Medical Encyclopedia, Volume XIX. Moscow, p. 67).


                The Armenian author, scandalously famous for his anti-Azerbaijani book “Hearth”, Zori Balayan, unwittingly confirmed this fact, together with him the non-Caucasian origin of his relatives, noting: “we are a special people, we even have our own illness -“ Armenian ”.)))) ))))))))))))
          2. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 25
            -5
            Quote: Ascetic
            Well, if Germany pays for the Holocaust, why not Turkey and its former ally pay for the genocide?

            The Central Jersey newspaper in the US state of New Jersey published an appeal from a member of the Pax Turcica Institute, Philomena Iorio Tasoluk, in which she welcomed state laws on the study of crimes against humanity, including the Holocaust, genocides in Srebrenica and Rwanda.

            According to AzerTAc, the author of the appeal casts doubt on the bill of the State House of Representatives No. 176 and the Senate No. 47 on including the study of the so-called "Armenian genocide" in the secondary school curriculum, which has been in effect since 1949.
            The appeal says that the fact of the extermination of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was not established, as required by the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. In addition, the International Court of Justice of the United Nations, as the main UN body for determining the use of the term "genocide", did not get down to business and did not make conclusions on the so-called "Armenian genocide". It goes on to say that the American government did not recognize the fact of the "Armenian genocide".
            The author of the letter also notes that between 1914 and 1922, 523955 Turks, Kurds, Azerbaijanis and other Muslims were exterminated by armed units of Armenian nationalists planning to create their own state on the territories of other states in Anatolia and the Caucasus. Consequently, the author of the letter concludes, if the unproven "Armenian genocide" is indicated in the bills of the Senate and the House of Representatives, then they should also include a provision on the massacres of Turks.
            In addition
            March 31, 1918, according to the old calendar - March 21, on Novruz holiday, in a short time, Armenian groups led by Shaumyan destroyed over 50 Muslim people - Azerbaijanis, Lezghins, as well as Jews and representatives of other peoples.

            Details: http://www.1news.az/analytics/20110331125039030.html
            Here are the events of 1905!
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-3.php
            and here is the apogee of the event and the massacre of 1918 !! When tens of thousands of civilians were killed in one day on March 31 in Baku
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-4.php
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-5.php
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-6.php
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-7.php

            First, let Armenia pay for the * genocide * of the Turkish and Azerbaijani people !!

            And the so-called * genocide * of Armenians is conceived and has the roots of fraud and juggling facts!
          3. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny April 11 2013 16: 45
            +5
            1) I didn’t know about the genetic ties between Armenians and Semites)))) Interesting theory)))) Maybe it really is) I willingly communicate with my Armenian friends, I can’t say anything bad about them, but the fact that they are all without exception " hardened hucksters "in mentality is a fact)))) My Kazakh brain does not fit so much RAM, how and where you can grab something even out of the blue)))) Well, very grasping guys in this regard, which to be honest , I would be careful not to do business with them (I mean my acquaintances), but at the same time we communicate very well, of course. By the way, it may be a paradox, but all my acquaintances, Kazakh Jews, are not at all an enterprising nation. Or are they some wrong Jews)))) Although I have met many times with "Soviet" Jews from Israel as part of government and business delegations - they smell like "gesheft" per kilometer! I have friends from among the twice repatriates - who first left KZ for Israel, and then returned back - all unanimously say that they could not live there because of the peculiarities of the local mentality. In our KZ, the Jews somewhat resemble Ukrainians - sometimes they seem to be cunning, and then you see that their cunning is "peasant", non-aggressive, and even somewhat "fair", while they can easily squander all the money with all their hearts, that is in your pocket only because "the soul asks." By God, our Kazakh Jews have a Slavic heart! And in all other respects in the mentality, Kazakhs are Kazakhs, well, sometimes with Uzbek business inclinations (those who moved from Tashkent to KZ). But in general, I am far from recognizing our Jews as "financial monsters and masters of innuendo." But note their amazing professional meticulousness and intuition in their main professions - doctors, lawyers. The best doctor is a Jew. Kazakhs are not very sympathetic people to the sick, doctors rarely turn out to be such that they can heal with words. And the Jews will treat you differently, so that later you will remember him with a kind word all your life.
            In general, yes, there are many similarities in the history of the Jewish and Armenian peoples. I don’t know what this is connected with, but it’s hard not to agree)

            2) About manipulating the Turks - I disagree fundamentally. Turks are a no-brainer nation, but they clearly feel when they are trying to hang something on their ears. They politely listen, mentally send them in three letters and forget about the conversation as soon as the door closes behind the interlocutor. And it will be necessary to kick in the ass, so that the door closes faster. They have a very developed sense of self-esteem (although they sometimes look like traders), but doing business with them is usually nice. Rarely do they give rise to doubt their honesty. Something they remind Iranians in business. Iranians, by the way, are generally smart. Kazakhs still have a lot to learn from this people. Very cultural, intelligent and just a beautiful nation. I understand why many Turks were fascinated by Persian culture. The symbiosis of the Türks and Iranians is usually obtained as good as the symbiosis of the Türks and Slavs. And the Iranian-Turkic-Slavic symbiosis would be generally amazing. Moreover, since ancient times we all mixed up a hundred times with each other.

            3) And about the Turkish-Armenian affairs here the Azerbaijanis have already answered so that I can hardly add anything else.
            1. Atlon
              Atlon April 11 2013 17: 24
              +3
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              1) I didn’t know about the genetic ties between Armenians and Semites)))) An interesting theory))))

              Read the bible. We are all descendants of the Jews. wink
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny April 11 2013 19: 56
                +4
                Quote: Atlon
                Read the bible. We are all descendants of the Jews. wink


                I live easy and carefree
                But still I'm prone to thoughts
                That we all, of course, are Jews,
                But some are too much.

                laughing
            2. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 11 2013 17: 41
              +3
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              But in general, I am far from recognizing our Jews as "financial monsters and masters of innuendo." But to note their amazing professional meticulousness and intuition in their main professions - doctors, lawyers. Best Doctor - Jew

              You know there are people who blame the Jews for everything, but a lot of Jews lived and studied with me both in school and in the yard !!
              And the impressions of the majority are only positive!
              I knew two enterprising of them, one even in the days of the Soviet Union was a speculator))) in the 6th grade I sold chewing gum, candy wrappers))) in the eighth began to sell cigarettes, then he covered his mini business))) began to take away his cigarettes and money ))) so the villain agreed with two hooligans so that they would roof him for 50 percent))))) but either they tried to .., or they were not responsible for the work, but the kid was still robbed, plus I had to pay these two guys))) they came for money every month day))
              And so all whom he knew were very decent and not conflicting people !!
              They never fought, very rarely saw a fight in a school or in a Jewish yard!
              The Jewish neighbor was the best pediator !!
              Saved so many children from death !!
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 04
          -3
          Quote: Ascetic
          So even then the question was precisely about SECURITY and not about any political or other rights there. Bulgarians, by the way, despite all their political movements and vectors

          General Mayevsky, who at that time was a living witness to the events, very much disagrees with you


          Mayevsky Vladimir Feofilovich, Vice-Consul of Russia in Van and Erzurum

          The Armenians of the city make up the main trading class of the population of those cities where there are no worthy rivals — the Greeks. Armenians industrialists and artisans are also concentrated exclusively in cities. Both of them form well-known proportions in order to better exploit their fishery.
          In the character of urban Armenians, it should be noted some features that appeared in them, it seems, only from very recent times. An Armenian citizen who has come into contact with some kind of education and has completed at least an elementary parish school gains a very high opinion of the political significance of the Armenian nation; in general, he has a wonderful vanity, arrogant tone, great conceit, and some special confidence that that if the Armenians at present do not play a big political role, it is only because they are under the yoke of Turkey; but in the future, the Armenian nation will certainly be reborn and will occupy an appropriate political position for it.
          Further, among urban Armenians, and especially among young people, one cannot help but notice a greater number of people who like to engage in all kinds of politics, who generally willingly flaunted their supposedly subtle understanding of all kinds of political combinations ...
          What were the gangs of revolutionaries made up of? Of the people who defend the interests of their rhodiras, their family centers, urban undereducated youth, bewildered by the inflamed speeches of the main agitators, in general, people who are very narrow-minded and do not understand even the simple thing that their activity could not improve the situation of Turkish Armenians, but rather only worsen ....
          Complaints about the oppressed situation of Armenians in Turkey can in no way be attributed to the share of Armenian citizens who have always enjoyed a sufficient degree of freedom, security and prosperity. Their social situation, in all respects, was more than satisfactory. Somewhat different conditions are the Armenians-villagers. As mentioned earlier, their main activity is focused on agriculture. The system of irrigation of fields and cultivation of cultivation brings good income here and ensures a completely comfortable existence. We can safely say that the Turkish Armenians in the countryside were always provided with a significant abundance of food supplies, and their material well-being was higher than the well-being of at least Russian peasants in central Russia. But at the same time, it is necessary to establish the fact that the entire rural population of Asian Turkey, not excluding Muslims, was not adequately protected from arbitrariness by a certain number of violent elements of the Kurdish population, including successful theft, robbery, and cattle theft ... However, this still does not allow us to say that the Armenian villagers all the time lived under the threat of a Kurdish pogrom.
          Given the existence of such unbearable living conditions, the Armenian population of Turkey would inevitably have to become poorer, die out and, finally, maybe even completely disappear ... Due to the poor development of citizenship in the country, one could point out cases where some Armenian villages felt rather, depending on the influential Kurdish Beys, rather than the closest Turkish officials. To create between the Kurds and the Armenians the enmity that was artificially caused during the period 1895-1896, meant to achieve a situation in which no reforms could ensure the peaceful cohabitation of both peoples.
          1. Ascetic
            Ascetic April 11 2013 14: 31
            +6
            Quote: Yarbay
            General Mayevsky, who at that time was a living witness to the events, very much disagrees with you


            This is from Akhundov's book "Destroyers of falsifications" isn't it? And this position is explained quite simply. After the assassination of the reformer Tsar Alexander II, the pendulum of Russian domestic politics swung in the opposite direction. The new tsar, Alexander III, began to pursue a course towards the creation of a highly centralized bureaucratic state. the country's structure (the so-called "constitution of Loris-Melikov") was sharply criticized at a meeting of the Council of Ministers. As part of the new public policy Chief of the Caucasus General Dondukov-Korsakov headed for Russification: in school education, the Armenian language began to be replaced by Russian, the oppression of the Armenian Church began. Why did this happen? Below you touched on this point ... Alexander III perfectly understood the destructive essence of any revolutionary infection for the Russian Empire.
            At the end of the 1887th century, Caucasian revolutionary emigration took shape in Western Europe, the first political parties appeared. Mikael Nabaldyan personally met in London with Herzen, participated in the distribution of his banned magazine "Bell" in Russia. In honor of this magazine, the Armenian “Social Democratic Party of Hnchakyan” got its name (“Hnchak” in translation from Armenian means “bell”), founded in XNUMX in Geneva. Like the Russian Narodnik revolutionaries, the party considered terror the main means of revolutionary struggle; with the help of terrorist attacks and the organization of uprisings in the Turkish part of western Armenia, she intended to achieve the restoration of Great Armenia. The Dashnaktsutyun party, which was created at the same time, also advocated an independent Armenian state in the Caucasus.

            Naturally, the consul Mayevsky pursued the policy of his sovereign to identify revolutionary infection, separatism and nationalism. And the main thing for him was to prevent the activities of destructive organizations such as "Dashnaktsutyun" in Russia.
            But this in no way justifies the mass destruction of ALL Armenians and not just traders and revolutionaries, moreover, purely on the NATIONAL SIGN.
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 11 2013 15: 03
              -2
              Quote: Ascetic
              This is from Akhundov's book "Destroyers of falsifications" isn't it?

              No, I gave a link !!!
              these are notes by General Mayevsky!
              Quote: Ascetic
              Like the Russian Narodnik revolutionaries, the party considered terror the main means of revolutionary struggle; with the help of terrorist attacks and the organization of uprisings in the Turkish part of western Armenia, she intended to achieve the restoration of Great Armenia.

              You are mistaken again !!
              Unlike the Russian revolutionaries, the Armenians were guided exclusively by nationalist ideas !!

              The party "Armenian Revolutionary Federation Dashnaktsutyun" was created in 1890 in Tbilisi. The main goal of the party is to create “Great Armenia” in the territory of Azerbaijan (Nagorno-Karabakh and Nakhichevan) and Turkey (Anadolu). In 1892, in Tbilisi, at the first party congress, a decision was made to organize attempts on the Turks. It was after this congress that “Dashnaktsutyun” had the following motto “Kill the Kurd and the Turk anywhere, in any conditions; kill the Armenian traitors who refused to do this; take revenge!».
              Pay attention to the year when the slogan-1892 was proclaimed !!
              Why take revenge and kill ??
              Quote: Ascetic
              And the main thing for him was to prevent the activities of destructive organizations such as "Dashnaktsutyun" in Russia.

              You carefully read Mayevsky !! ??
              Least of all does he write about Dashnaktsutyun !!
              He talks about the situation of Armenians in Turkey and the aspirations of the Armenian elite !!
              I didn’t cite all of the links, only a part!
              but they didn’t destroy all Armenians, it’s a myth !!!
              You can also say that the desire of the Armenians does not justify the destruction of ALL Turks and Azerbaijanis!
              1. Ascetic
                Ascetic April 11 2013 16: 19
                +9
                Quote: Yarbay
                but they didn’t destroy all Armenians, it’s a myth !!!


                But they wanted to? As well as the Greeks, Bulgarians, and others, only because
                Quote: Yarbay
                the desire of the Armenians does not justify the destruction of ALL Turks and Azerbaijanis!

                Interestingly, the Armenians wanted to permanently destroy all the Turks. but seeing this, the Turks fussed over before TRYING to destroy all the Armenians ...
                Like Alton, I didn’t want to get involved in this .. dialogue ... the devil pulled me .. my position on the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict and the activities of the leadership of the USSR is well known to you.
                Regarding the Ottoman Empire, to acknowledge the Ottoman policy towards the Orthodox peoples conquered by them as fair is for me to call into question the policies of the Russian Empire and those victims of my compatriots who were put on the altar of the struggle to liberate these peoples from the Ottoman yoke, including Armenians from pogroms and massacres pointless. And I will never allow this, excuse me ... even if these brothers swearing on eternal friendship often betrayed Russia and transferred to the camp of its enemies, it still does not change anything.
                And about the politics of Turkey, I spoke in a previous post below ..
                1. Apollo
                  Apollo April 11 2013 16: 26
                  +3
                  Quote: Ascetic
                  ......... for me means to question the policies of the Russian Empire ............


                  Good afternoon, Stanislav! hi

                  To be objective, you need to listen to both sides. So the country which was not. Armenia in the Caucasus ?!
                  1. Apollo
                    Apollo April 11 2013 16: 30
                    +3
                    Russian priest about the Armenian Church
                    1. Apollo
                      Apollo April 11 2013 16: 32
                      -1
                      The Armenian Church is defective in its teaching, priest of the Russian Orthodox Church
                      1. Apollo
                        Apollo April 11 2013 21: 48
                        +4
                        The fight at the Holy Sepulcher between the representatives of the Greek and Armenian churches. Even with the Greeks do not get along. what
                      2. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 April 11 2013 23: 16
                        +5
                        Quote: Apollon
                        . Even with the Greeks do not get along. what

                        There are such nations for which a full face is a normal state wassat
                2. Gari
                  Gari April 11 2013 23: 48
                  +2
                  Center for the History of the Caucasus at the Institute for Social and Political Research ,, AZER-GLOBE ,,
                  You can’t say anything
                  They write many such tales there ???
              2. Yarbay
                Yarbay April 11 2013 16: 38
                -2
                Quote: Ascetic
                But they wanted to?

                Dear, give the facts !!
                I do not accept allegations of allegations !!
                If they would like to destroy everyone, they would destroy it, and would not betray the protection, although small in number, when they resettled them !!
                Quote: Ascetic
                Interestingly, the Armenians wanted to permanently destroy all the Turks. but seeing this, the Turks fussed over before TRYING to destroy all the Armenians ...

                Yes, it’s also interesting to get as in Sumgait !!
                Who could believe that an Armenian is killing and raping Armenians and inciting the crowd ??
                And there was Grigoryan, it wasn’t me who invented it, nor Buniyatov, which Armenians have been talking about for many years everywhere !!
                And recently, when a video appeared from the interrogation of this non-human being, they recognized it !!
                But with reservations))) at first they said that he was pale, he was forced to rape and kill))) Then he saw that it wasn’t an option that he was just a man with an Armenian surname))
                where is the attempt to destroy all Armenians ???
                The last great vezir of Turkey was the Armenian, what are you talking about!
                Just provoked by Western countries and Russia, the Armenian elites decided to get a state on the territory of Turkey, so that there were no problems, they decided to cut out the population so that the majority of these territories were Armenians !!
                I gave you links that they did in Azerbaijan, the same methods, just our population, unlike the Turkish, was completely unwritten, didn’t have an army at the beginning, take the trouble to read !!

                Quote: Ascetic
                And about the politics of Turkey, I spoke in a previous post below ..

                Regarding the policy of Turkey at the present moment, her opponent and her disapprove!
          2. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 11 2013 15: 28
            +2
            Quote: Ascetic
            But this in no way justifies the mass destruction of ALL Armenians and not just traders and revolutionaries, moreover, purely on the NATIONAL SIGN.

            but justifies the killing of ALL Turks and Azerbaijanis ??


            "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. As I did . I gathered all of the women. Men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth. "
            A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.
            Read on * Quoted in Grant Overton, Cargoes for Crusoes. (New York & Boston), 1924. See the essay entitled: A Reasonable View of Michael Arlen, pp. 266-276.
      3. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 07
        0
        A more detailed discussion about this is ahead. I will say a few words about the Armenian clergy. His religious activity is very insignificant; but, in return for her, she always worked diligently on the basis of maintaining national ideas. Among Armenians, as well as among other Christian peoples of the East, ideas of nationality lived for hundreds of years in the shadow of secluded but numerous monasteries. Here the spiritual pastors worked not so much on the preaching of “the word of God”, but on maintaining the national discord of Christians and Muslims. Church schools and schools in general, actively helped the clergy in this field. The Christians of the East generally lost their knowledge of the main Christian principles and that their place of religion was taken by a too developed sense of nationality ... They began to call themselves an advocate of human rights and the rule of law, generally actively fuss in order to achieve some prestige of their voice in the East ... And if the Armenians under the hypnosis of lush seductive speeches, they would again embark on the path of revolution, and again would fruitlessly ruin as many lives and so much public wealth that they had lost between 1895 and 1896, the eloquent orators of France would not have felt even signs of remorse.
        The reasons that gave rise to 1895–1896 the chaotic state of many vilayets of Asian Turkey does not lie at all in the oppressed position of the Armenians, who have always been here among the more affluent classes of the population. The revolutionary movement of the Armenians was the result of: 1) their political maturity; 2) the strong awakening of ideas of nationality, freedom and separatism in them, and, finally, 3) the result of the ruthless exploitation of these ideas by the enlightened states of the West.
        In order not to say everything personally on my own behalf, I will cite an excerpt from the report of the French envoy to Constantinople Cambon, who perfectly describes the situation of the Armenian question at the beginning of 1894 and partly even predicts subsequent events.
        “In London, the Armenians found the best reception: Gladstone’s cabinet gathered the discontented, grouped them, disciplined and promised his support. Since that time, the propaganda committee has established itself in London and has received relevant suggestions here. It was necessary to introduce two very simple ideas into the mass of the Armenian population: the idea of ​​nationality and the idea of ​​freedom ” .The committees undertook to distribute them ... and thus, for several years, secret societies spread throughout Armenia: the vices and shortcomings of the Turkish administration were propagated, and the ideas of nationality and independence were awakened in the Armenian people (“Armenian affairs in 1893-1897, p. 11,12).
        Cambon quite clearly says that the Armenian committees took upon themselves the task of introducing into the mass of the rural Armenian population the ideas of nationalism, freedom and autonomy. How should the Turkish administration relate to such activities of the Armenian agitators, to activities aimed at destroying the state foundations of Turkey? How many times over the past decade, at the insistence of the European powers, she has released hundreds of political agitators, who immediately after their release again joined the ranks of the bandits of gangs ... The proclamation issued by the Armenian Dashnak committee in August 1896 contained a program of twelve paragraphs in which everything was required for Armenia, up to and including press freedom, the proclamations end up like this: ” We will die, we know that! ... But the spirit of the revolution, penetrating the Armenian nation to the core of its bones, will not cease to threaten the throne of the Sultan until we acquire human rights and at least one Armenian remains alive! " Then the signature: “The Central Committee of Constantinople of the Federation of Armenian Revolutionaries“ Dashnaktsutyun ”.
        http://journaleast.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/zapiskigeneralnoqokonsula/
      4. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 18
        -2
        Quote: Ascetic
        Isn't it too high a price for the fact that the Armenians, Greeks and Bulgarians betrayed the sun-faced and kindest Turkish sultan? inflicting a blood grievance on the caring and kind Turks, deciding to seek protection from the bloody Russian tsar (who constantly dipped the sultans in their own .. in numerous wars) in the "prison of peoples" of colonial Russia?

        Not just betrayed dear, but where deserting, where raising a rebellion killed tens of thousands of women and children !!
        Mothers, wives and children of soldiers who were at the front !!

        read the memoirs of lieutenant colonel Tverdokhlebov
        http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/istoch/is001.htm
      5. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 28
        +1
        Quote: Ascetic
        The conclusion that the Armenian politicians and historians make and with which basing on the facts can be accepted is obvious.

        something Armenian * historians * are panicky afraid to create a commission to study those events))))))))
      6. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 16: 17
        0
        Quote: Ascetic
        under three different and opposing Turkish regimes, the genocidal policy towards the Armenians was implemented consistently and mercilessly.

        Simeon Lehatsi, who went on a trip through the cities and villages of the Ottoman Empire, emphasized that there, under Muslim rule, the Christian Armenians had no reason for discomfort. He wrote: “During the reign of the Greeks, not a single Armenian entered Istanbul. When the Turks took Istanbul, they brought invitations and persuasion from many areas of the Armenians. In the same way, the Turks took the large and magnificent lands from the Greeks and handed them over to the Armenians ” (Simeon Lehatsi. Decree. Op., P. 145-146).

        The Russian Caucasus scholar N.N. Shavrov pointed out that as early as the beginning of the XNUMXth century the Ottoman government took care of all its subjects, including the Armenians (Shavrov N.N. A new threat to the Russian cause in Transcaucasia. St. Petersburg, 1911, p. 114, 116).

        In this regard, we recall that the Greeks considered the Armenians as their main enemies, because it was Byzantium that twice deprived them of national statehood. The first time was in the XNUMXth century, when Byzantium and the Sassanid Empire defeated the Armenian state in Asia Minor and divided its territory among themselves; in the XI century, the same Byzantium again liquidated the restored Armenian Ani kingdom in the same Asia Minor, restored in the IX century (Yuzbashyan K.N. Armenian states of the era of Bagratids and Byzantium of the IX-XI centuries. Moscow, 1988, p. 4-6, 234).
        By the way, it is worth noting the following remark by Simeon Lehatsi, who, in connection with the long stay of Armenians within the Muslim states in the XNUMXth century, drew attention to the following very important circumstance: “The Greeks are very evil and unjust, and the worst enemies of the Armenians. At the sight of us, they spat and shouted “shikli,” which means “dog” or “heretic.” Greeks are the original enemies of the Armenians. How much evil they brought down on the heads of our ancestors, how they destroyed the kingdom of Armenia. I don’t know how we deserved that, with the exception of the Greeks, all nations, both believers and unbelievers, love us, although our people do not have unanimity, and the Armenians do not love each other, which made them known ” (Simeon Lehatsi. Decree. Op., P. 145-146).
        Thus, the main enemy of the Christian Armenians was the Christian power, because of which the Armenians twice lost their own statehood: in the IV and XI centuries. As a result, they have not had it for more than 1.400 years. Only after the mass migration to the South Caucasus, starting from the first third of the 1873th century, did their hope for an independent political existence diminish. Among other things, by that time a sufficient number of Armenians had accumulated here. So, if in 334.242 there were 1886 Armenians in the Caucasus, in 690.615 - 1897, in 786.447 - 1916, then in 1.211.145 - already 1887 (Code of materials for the study of the economic life of the state peasants of the Transcaucasian region, Volume II. Tiflis, 160, pp. 170-1886; Materials for the study of the economic life of the state peasants of the Transcaucasian Territory, Volume II, Tiflis, 234, pp. 236-1897; The first general census of the population of the Russian Empire in 1903. Baku, Elizavetpol, Erivan provinces. S.- Petersburg, 1905-1917; Caucasian calendar for 1916. Tiflis, 179, p. 195-218, 219-XNUMX). At the same time, the vast majority of Armenians were settled on Azerbaijani lands: on the territory of the former Erivan, Karabakh, Baku, Shirvan, Nakhchivan, and Ganja khanates.
    2. Artmark
      Artmark April 11 2013 12: 35
      +4
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Turks normally belong to the Armenians.

      Yes, when they want to insult a friend, they call them Armenians, that’s respect hi
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 14
        -2
        Quote: ArtMark

        Yes, when they want to insult a friend, they call them Armenians, that’s respect

        and what do you Armenians eat to live and work in Turkey !!
        And where is an example of the fact that someone was called an Armenian wanting to offend ??
        Show me ..
    3. Artmark
      Artmark April 11 2013 13: 40
      +5
      Dear, when you kill 1.5 million of your people, you will also be hysterical (of course, God forbid). but the fact that the Turks want to establish relations is nonsense. Everyone must answer for their actions! But the fact that the Armenians wanted to join Russia is their choice! And a big request not to write about what you don’t know. hi
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 14: 22
        0
        Quote: ArtMark
        Dear, when you kill 1.5 million of your people, you will also be hysterical (of course, God forbid). but the fact that the Turks want to establish relations is nonsense

        The thing is that your people are hostages of sick elites who feed you myths!


        In the book of N.M. Lagov's "Armenia", published in St. Petersburg in June 1915, says that according to the census carried out by the patriarch in 1913, the number of Armenians in Turkish Armenia is 1018 thousand. The French scientist Pierre Dumont claims that in 1915, 1,4 million Armenians lived within the Ottoman Turkey and the Russian Empire.
        Stanford J. Ezel K. Shaw) shows that for the period 1882-1914. the entire Armenian population of the empire never exceeded 1. The most comprehensive study of this complex issue is given by Justin McCarthy, “Muslims and Minorities, the Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire,” New York (London) NY Press), 300. It is stated in the paper that the figures are underestimated in official censuses, so the author suggests formula for deriving real numbers, taking into account understated data. At the same time, the Armenian population was 000 people. in 1983 (p. 1493276).
        K. Gurun's books "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and the policy of the great powers".

        The number of Armenians in Turkey until 1915:

        Armenian sources:
        Hovhannesyan - more than 1,5 million, but less than 2 million (in 1914)
        Pasdermajyan - 2,1 million (as of 1914)
        Morgan (based on Chobanjyan's data) - 2,38 million (as of 1914)
        Leart (according to Gyurun, current fam. Zohrab) - 2,62 million (in 1912 - only in six Armenian-populated provinces)

        Foreign sources:
        Contanson - 1,4 million (as of 1913)
        Walker - 1,5 million (for 1914)
        Price - 1 million (for 1914)
        Powell - 1,5 million
        Lynch - 1,36 million
        Quinet - 1,48 million
        Encyclopedia Britannica (ed. 1910; auth. Briton) - 1,5 million

        Turkish sources:
        Official Ottoman statistics - 1,29 thousand (as of 1914)
        first, Armenian propaganda spoke of 500 thousand killed!
        Then it became 800 thousand somewhere in the 70s, and then sharply in the mid-80s they decided that it was best to immediately round up to half a million !!

        So * genocide * was not !!
        how could they kill one and a half million if so many ate you ate typed !?
        Plus 1 million 200 thousand were relocated!

        And that was what !!

        "I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones. As I did . I gathered all of the women. Men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth. "
        A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.
        Read on * Quoted in Grant Overton, Cargoes for Crusoes. (New York & Boston), 1924. See the essay entitled: A Reasonable View of Michael Arlen, pp. 266-276.
      2. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 14: 37
        -1
        Quote: ArtMark
        but the fact that the Turks want to establish relations is nonsense.

        You didn’t answer why you are going to live and work in Turkey for thousands in Turkey, where you yourself saw and heard the Turks swear friendship and love !! ??
        Do you read English ??
        Avetis Aharonian, From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne; Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.

        p. 52 (second paragraph).

        "Your three Armenian chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed Muslim villages and have staged massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table - look at this, here in December are concerning the reports of the last few months ruined Muslim villages which my representative Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the destruction of 300 villages by the Armenians. "
        p. 54 (fifth paragraph).

        "Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Muslim is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition.

        It is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many Muslim villages in the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are official charges of massacres by the Armenians. "
        these are your sources !!
        do you need a translation?
      3. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 15: 33
        -1
        Quote: ArtMark
        Dear, when you kill 1.5 million of your people, you will also be hysterical (of course, God forbid). but the fact that the Turks want to establish relations is nonsense. Everyone must answer for their actions! But the fact that the Armenians wanted to join Russia is their choice! And a big request not to write about what you don’t know.


        how many now Armenians are permissible in the world?

        "Population (2004 est.): 3,991,360" growth rate 0.3%
        It is a well-known fact that in order for the population to double, a minimum of 20 years is needed.

        But how is this business going with you (according to your own sources)
        table from http://www.iatp.am/e...demog-ax.htm#1t


        Years The number of population
        (in thousands)
        1828 97
        1831 162
        1873 496
        1886 636
        1897 798
        1913 1000
        1914 1014
        1919 962
        1920 720
        1926 881
        1939 1282
        1940 1320
        1950 1347
        1959 1763
        1966 2239
        1970 2492
        1971 2545
        1972 2605
        1973 2667
        1974 2729
        1975 2785
        1976 2834
        1977 2893
        1978 2950
        1979 3031
        1980 3080
        1981 3119
        1982 3169
        1983 3218
        1984 3263
        1985 3320
        1986 3362
        1987 3412
        1988 3461
        1989 3287
        1990 3515
        1991 3575
        1992 3667
        1993 3742
        1994 3750
        1995 3763
        1996 3782
        1997 3793,2
        1998 3798
        1999 3803.4

        and suddenly the loss of one million IMMEDIATELY - who is to blame? We?

        2004 2.991 that's where the genocide




        Every year the population of people of Armenian nationality grows by approximately 100.000 according to table s 1828 po 1939, a potmo tolko na 20-40.000.
        This is cool.
        There are no problems, but ... if you look at the table, it turns out that Armenia lost 520.000 people (and not 1.5 mil, and even then not in 1915, but for the period from 1914 when there was no genocide, right? Until 1919)

        and all of a sudden nature attacks the Armenians and the increase is only 20-40.000 per year ceiling. The loss of population here does not only INCLUDE "the so-called genocide" but forced migration, death from disease, disasters, and so on.

        now take a look here:
        "Only 66,3% of the population of Armenia until 1921 was made up of Armenians."

        Simple mathematics and 344.300 people of Armenian nationality were lost from 1914 to 1919. If you divide it by 5 years, you get somewhere around 50-65.000 annually.

        I am just calculating and want to "help" you with the numbers.
        I have a suspicion that your "historians" and "woe patriots" have just begun sprinkling one zero "15" every 20.000-20 years from 25-0 thousand.
        To assure you, not by me, but by you that the genocide occurred ONLY 1915.
        Truth? then who destroyed your people from 1916 to 1919? Azerbaijanis too?

        and who is to blame for the fact that now in Armenia the ceiling according to Census, 2004, about 1.850.000 lives?


        Non-matching gets))))))))))))))
    4. datur
      datur April 11 2013 13: 59
      +2
      And what the Americans "advise" the Turks do not care. Turkey is a country with its own political opinion. Amused !!!! laughing
    5. GELEZNII_KAPUT
      GELEZNII_KAPUT April 11 2013 14: 03
      +2
      Nichrome to itself "establishing constitutional order", cleaning up the lands from the people inhabiting it? A million people, nichrome behold a cleanup !!!
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny April 11 2013 14: 41
        -1
        In other ways, fought in Chechnya? In Afghanistan, our army killed more than 1 million Afghans inadvertently while they were performing an international duty. But how do tsarist punishers in the Russian Empire put things in order do not know?
    6. ultra
      ultra April 11 2013 20: 39
      +1
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Turkey is a country with its own political opinion.

      HERE IT'S A Pearl !!! With foreign troops on their territory and with their "own" opinion! lol
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny April 12 2013 11: 40
        -1
        Do not confuse sour with salty. On the territory of Turkey there are troops of the allies (their allies, of course), and not some coercion of the invaders. You also say that Germany and Japan in the world do not have a vote for the same reason.
  • Sirocco
    Sirocco April 11 2013 10: 00
    +4
    If pro-American groups come to power in Damascus, a strategic gap will form for Russia in the space south of the North Caucasus. If that happens. And Turkey, the United States, and the EU, are doing everything for this. Then don’t go to your grandmother, we all read this in the media more than once. All this shushara from Syria Libya, with the support of the same Turkey, will rush to us. This is visible to the blind. Turkey, Qatar, this is the outpost of the United States, the head of this western serpent. Which time to cut off. So that she would not drool. And then from saliva to bloodletting in our territory there is not long left. It's time to get George the Victorious, to his historic homeland. The adversaries have unbelted.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog April 11 2013 10: 10
      +2
      Do you think we’ll just watch how 20 years ago terrorist training bases were created in the neighboring territories for the Caucasus? No one has yet revoked our right to a preemptive strike in such territories. And most importantly, apart from the stink on the air, we can no longer be afraid of anything. There Israel bombed objects in Syria and even no one said anything against. Strength comes back to first place (although in fact it didn’t leave there), therefore we are arming ourselves at an accelerated pace.
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco April 11 2013 10: 50
        0
        Quote: Svarog
        . There Israel bombed objects in Syria and even no one said anything against.

        I have been asking this question for a long time, since our leadership announced the right of a preemptive strike, then why not use it? What are we waiting for? Rooster, or are we waiting for the thunder to strike?, Gentlemen, can anyone explain the situation with the preventive methods of warfare?
  • Vtel
    Vtel April 11 2013 10: 01
    10
    Turks as they were Turks, and remained - forgot Ishmael! The main thing is that the Armenians do not succumb to the flattering West to friendship with the Turks.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 10: 18
      -7
      Duc, it was not the Turks who climbed into Russia, but quite the opposite. Russia climbed into the Turkish zone of influence - the Crimean Khanate, Bessarabia, the Balkans.
      1. TRex
        TRex April 11 2013 10: 29
        +3
        I will answer with your own words from a previously posted post: "And what was the EMPIRE supposed to do?" Everything that happened is a normal historical process ... It is a pity that our young reformers profiled the heritage of their ancestors.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny April 11 2013 11: 07
          -8
          T-Rex
          I do not argue that these are the natural relations of empires with each other. Just do not forget that the initiator of the Russian-Turkish wars is Russia, not Turkey. And then most Russians, far from history, are convinced that it is the Turks who allegedly constantly invaded Russian lands.
          Secondly, it was not the young reformers who profiled it, but you yourself. Who are you in power? Those people whom you yourself have chosen. And more than once. All the neighbors told you that Yeltsin is a drunkard, a fool, trusting in the flattery of "friends" and just an enemy of integration. The Russians voted with their hearts even more amicably. What is the habit of choosing the "main" and then disowning it? Don't like the president? Do not vote or do like the Kyrgyz - they have already kicked out two presidents))) And they will continue to kick it if someone "does not justify high confidence")
          The mistakes of the Yeltsin (Romanov, Putin) authorities are the mistakes of every Russian Russia. Just like the triumphs of the tsarist or Russian current authorities-these are the merits of every Russian. Either plead guilty for the mistakes of Borka, or don’t get on the exploits of your country. If the Russians are not responsible for the actions of their authorities, then they cannot claim the glory of the deeds of their rulers.

          Bashkort, what the hell about "hundreds of thousands of Russians"? From a school textbook? Did the Crimeans drive many Russian citizens from all Bessarabia and (now) Ukrainian steppes? The Crimeans on the territory controlled by the Russian state were for the last time in the 16th century under Ivan the Terrible, if anything. Calling it a reason for war in the 18th century is nonsense. Do you want to declare war on France right now because she killed "hundreds of thousands of Russians" in 1812? What's the difference - 19th century or 21 ...

          Vadivak, Crimea - Turkic territory since ancient times, if you are not in the know. Yes, there were Greek colonies, different NON-SLAVIC peoples lived there, but the main population, the main language on this peninsula, was even Turkic before Genghis Khan. Slavs in Crimea, sorry, did not even smell before Catherine. Crimeans (current Crimean Tatars) - the main population of Crimea - were closely associated with the Ottomans - both culturally, genetically, and politically.
          The Balkans are a mishmash of peoples. Türks, southern Slavs, Hungarians, Romanians, Germans and others always redrawn their borders there every decade. This is someone else’s porridge. But the Russian Empire wanted to chop off a thread too. Did not work out. I had to limit myself to Bessarabia and the Crimea.
          The argument that Russia saved Serbs / Bulgarians from slavery is complete absurdity. The tsars did not consider their citizens to be people, and then they suddenly "worried" about human rights in all the Caucasus-Balkans. By the way, Bulgarians believe that Turks are closer to them than Russians. With all that it implies. The fact that they had a row with the Ottomans and fought there is like a scandalous husband and wife fighting. They will make peace, but their neighbor, a "peacemaker" will never be to their liking.
          1. knn54
            knn54 April 11 2013 11: 51
            10
            Marek Rozny ... the initiator of the Russian-Turkish wars is Russia, not Turkey.
            The first major Russian-Turkish clash in history was a direct continuation of the struggle of the great powers for Ukraine. Having waited for the mutual exhaustion of Russia and Poland, the Ottoman Empire entered into a dispute over Ukrainian lands. The initiator of involving Turkey in the conflict was Petro Doroshenko, chosen in 1665 by the hetman of Right-Bank Ukraine. He declared himself a subject of the Turkish Sultan, with the help of Janissaries to oust both the Russians and the Poles from Ukraine. At the end of 1679, negotiations began, which culminated in the Bakhchisarai peace in 1681.
            The next military clash between Russia and Turkey took place already in 1710, when under the influence of the Swedish king Charles XII, after the defeat at Poltava, who ended up in Turkish Bender, the sultan began a war with Russia. According to the Treaty of Constantinople in 1700, the Russians received Azov with adjacent lands and stopped the tradition of sending gifts to the Crimean Khan.
            In October 1768, a new Russian-Turkish war began. Turkey took advantage of the fact that Russia fought with the Polish Confederates, and attacked first, hoping to divert Russian forces to Poland. However, the Turkish army was poorly prepared for war. In 1769, Russian troops captured Khotin and Iasi in Moldova. In 1770, the Turks were defeated in the battles of Larg and Cahul. The Russian expeditionary force in Georgia captured Kutaisi and besieged Poti. Allied Russia, Georgian troops under the command of Tsar Irakli II defeated the Turkish army that crossed the Kura in the Battle of Aspins. On July 21, the Kuchuk-Kainardzhi peace was concluded. In this world, Crimea was declared independent and actually came under Russian control.
            In 1787, Turkey demanded that Russia consent to the inspection of Russian merchant ships passing through the straits and the refusal of Russian patronage of Georgia. Having received no response, the Turkish Sultan declared war on Russia on August 12. This time the war was unsuccessful for the Ottoman Empire. On January 9, 1792, a peace was concluded in Iasi, according to which Crimea was recognized as part of the Russian Empire, and the Russian-Turkish border was established along the Dniester.
            On December 30, 1806, a new Russian-Turkish war began. Turkey declared war on Russia, taking advantage of the diversion of Russian forces to the war against France. Turkey concluded the peace treaty in Bucharest on May 28, 1812. BASARABIA WENT TO RUSSIA.
            A new Russian-Turkish war began in 1828 due to an uprising in Greece. In 1827, England, France and Russia demanded that the Sultan grant autonomy to the rebellious Greek provinces. When the Turks rejected this demand, the UNITED English-Russian-French squadron entered the Archipelago. On September 14, the Turks were forced to sign the Adrianople Peace, which marked the end of the next Russo-Turkish war. Russia received the mouth of the Danube and the fortresses of Akhalkalaki and Akhaltsikh in Transcaucasia. The Black Sea straits opened for merchant ships of all countries, and the Sultan of Greece granted wide autonomy, in fact - independence.
            And where are the RUSSIAN INITIATORS ???
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 11 2013 14: 20
              -1
              Quote: knn54
              The initiator of involving Turkey in the conflict was Petro Doroshenko, chosen in 1665 by the hetman of Right-Bank Ukraine. He declared himself a subject of the Turkish Sultan ...

              Sorry, let’s start the Ukrainians fought with the Poles, and to achieve independence they were helped by the Turks - Tatars of Crimea. After the Poles were crushed to smithereens, the Poles began to conduct diplomatic correspondence with Moscow, and convinced the Russian Tsar Alexei Romanov to participate in the war; the Poles needed Moscow to prevent the Crimeans from connecting with the Ukrainians before the Battle of Pilyavets. Moscow sent the Don Cossacks to Crimea, and while the Crimeans repulsed the Don attack, the Poles cut with the Ukrainians in the battle.
              But when the Pereyaslavskaya Rada decided the question of which state to join, the Rada decided to go under the power of Moscow.
              After the death of Khmelnitsky, Doroshenko again turned to the Turks for help and swore allegiance to the Ottoman Empire. When the Poles "out of habit" invaded Ukraine again, it was the Ottomans who sent troops and forced the Poles to abandon their intentions. In the same way, the Turkish-Tatar troops forced the Moscow troops to retreat.
              But because of the idiotic policy of Doroshenko himself, the people turned away from him, who crossed the Dnieper to other hetmans-competitors (who were under the "roof" of Moscow, and forcedly).
              In a word, the Turks helped Khmelnitsky fight back from Poland, they also helped Doroshenko. Russia itself entered the Ottoman-Ukrainian-Polish affairs, because the Poles promised Romanov the right to the Polish crown for help. This is a historical fact.
              Also, you completely "forgot" to mention that the first reason for the Russian-Turkish fights is the reaction of the Ottomans to the fact of the capture of Astrakhan and then other Turkic cities. Do not forget, then the real Turks were actually the same Turks that were in the fragments of the Golden Horde. The seizure of Astrakhan, Kazan, Siberia angered the Crimean Khan, who swore on the Koran to spend his entire life in the war for the liberation of the occupied cities and the ruler of the Ottoman Empire.
              Then Moscow urged the Don to attack the Azov Cossacks and Nogais, who obeyed the Khan and Sultan. Moreover, the Turks constantly wrote to Moscow tsars that they would temper their Don subjects, but tsars usually pretended not to have power over them, although in fact the Don people did what the tsar told them. Don Cossacks were convenient weapons of the Russian tsars.
              After the Bakhchisaray peace, in 1687 and 1689, Russian troops under the command of Vasily Golitsyn, together with the Cossacks twice unsuccessfully attacked the Crimean Khanate.
              In 1694, the son of Alexei - Pyotr Romanov continued to pressure the Crimeans, planning to capture Azov. As a result of two attacks, Azov was occupied. The Turks had to cede these lands, but as it turned out not for long. The Russians themselves gave an occasion - in 1706, the khan of Crimea, Gaza III Giray informed the Ottoman Sultan that the Black Sea Nogais suffer religious persecution from the Russians and express a desire to resettle within the Ottoman Empire, in June 1709 a new letter came from Khan Devleta (restored to the Crimean throne) II Giray with alarming news, as if the Russian navy had already appeared in the Sea of ​​Azov. And here also Pyotr Alekseevich SAM began to threaten a war with the Ottoman Empire if the Turks did not expel the Swedish king from their borders. What was left to do in this situation? If you began to threaten you with war, then get up and fight. As a result, the Turks returned their lands. And Peter the Great no longer climbed into the Crimea and the Ottoman Empire. But his descendants really wanted revenge for the war lost by Peter ...
              1. knn54
                knn54 April 11 2013 18: 20
                +2
                Marek Rozny
                1. Then Moscow incited the Don to attack the Azov Cossacks and Nogai ...
                In the Genoese Statute (1449), in particular, there are such words ... they continued their nomadic and military trades. Sometimes they attacked the Moscow suburbs and the embassy caravans.
                And how do you think Moscow princes should react?
                2. The capture of Astrakhan, Kazan, Siberia outraged the Crimean Khan, who vowed on the Qur'an to spend his whole life fighting for the liberation of the occupied cities and the ruler of the Ottoman Empire.
                And an adequate reaction to the seizure of lands of co-religionists-Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria ...
                M. Elberd “The path to Oshkhamakho is terrible” - read how the mountaineers “rejoiced” in the presence of the Krymchaks and Turks.
                3. As a result, the Turks returned their lands.
                With what such joy does the Azov region belong to immigrants from Turkmenistan ...
                Reminds me of a quote from a Hungarian history textbook ~ Magyars came to Europe (simultaneously cutting out Rusyns) and HAVE RECEIVED A HISTORICAL HOMELAND!
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny April 11 2013 22: 03
                  +1
                  1) You either intentionally hang noodles or simply not in the subject. The charter of the Genoese colonies of 1449 does not say a word about
                  Quote: knn54
                  they continued their nomadic and military crafts. Sometimes they attacked the Moscow suburbs and the embassy caravans.
                  Cossacks are mentioned there, about which it is said that Genoese should not stop them from robbing Tatars.
                  And your torn copy-paste is taken from here http://slavakazakam.ru/azovskie And the whole phrase sounds like this:
                  "The Azov Cossacks remained in the Azov steppes, and partially settled in Azov. They continued their nomadic and military crafts. Sometimes they attacked the Moscow suburbs and the embassy caravans. However, part of them caused discontent of the Sultan and in 1503, fleeing from a punitive expedition was supposed to migrate to the forest-steppe between the North Donets and Desna. From here they soon offered their services to the Moscow Grand Duke so that they would help him in his wars with the Polish-Lithuanian king, and for this no one should interfere with them".
                  Have you accidentally made a mistake or intentionally? I hope by chance.

                  2) Do not confuse sour with salty. It is the Russians who have no kinship with the southern Slavs, your peoples disengaged at least 2000 years ago. But the Turkic steppes of those years were really one ethnic group. Kazakhs, Crimean Tatars, Siberian Tatars, Bashkirs, Karakalpaks, Volga Tatars, Nogai, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks (real, not Sart), Polish-Lithuanian Tatars consist of the same clans - Argyns, Naimans, Kerei, Jalayirs, Kipchaks Konyrat, Uysuni, Bersh, Dulat, etc. All Turkic-steppe peoples consist of the same components. And I still can easily find a real relative in any of the mentioned people (except for the Uzbeks, they don’t have my kind). The population of the Crimean yurt or the Siberian yurt or the Kazakh Khanate was no different from each other. This is how to take this year and take the population of Ukrainian Dnepropetrovsk, Russian Vologda and Kazakhstan's Petropavlovsk - all these cities are under the authority of different states, but the population is basically the same - Russian. Just to make the analogy complete, imagine that the presidents of Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan are real relatives, uncles, nephews, cousins, second cousins, just like the khans of the mentioned uluses were real blood relatives - Genghis Juchids.
                  Do you know that at the meetings of the heads of the Turkic-speaking states, the presidents address each other with the word "brother"? Do the presidents of Bulgaria, Poland, the Czech Republic and Russia behave like that when they meet? The Turks really feel their kinship with each other. For Russians, these are Siberian Tatars, Karakalpaks, Nogays, Kazakhs - different peoples. I listen to Tatar TV channels without straining, forgetting that formally they do not speak Kazakh, the difference is so minimal. We know that we are from the same family lineages. This is real kinship. And not as a mythical "brotherly love" of the Romanovs for the southern Slavs. The Romanovs and the nobles kept their Russian peasants in slavery until 1861, surrendering to them the "human rights" of some Balkans. I just wanted to snatch a piece from the weakened Ottoman Empire, as, for example, the "Polish heritage" was torn apart.
          2. GELEZNII_KAPUT
            GELEZNII_KAPUT April 11 2013 13: 06
            -3
            Where have you gone, deffective historian? Answer us !!! wassat
            1. datur
              datur April 11 2013 14: 05
              +1
              [quote = GELEZNII_KAPUT] Where did you go, deffective historian? Answer us !!! --- he ran to the State Department to complain about our undemocracy !!!! yes laughing
            2. knn54
              knn54 April 11 2013 19: 31
              +3
              Zhelezyaka, your move (see above).
          3. Atlon
            Atlon April 11 2013 13: 22
            +6
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Just do not forget that the initiator of the Russian-Turkish wars is Russia, not Turkey.

            In fact, small Britain ... wink
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 11 2013 14: 54
              -1
              the British played a role, but without them everything would have happened more or less like that. Not the Turks took something from the Russians, but the Russians took away from the Turks. Therefore, the Turks would fall in love with provocation every time in relations with Russia. Moreover, Russia itself openly climbed the conflict. So the role of the British is exaggerated here.
          4. Alexander
            Alexander April 11 2013 15: 25
            +2
            The Russian Empire should and was obliged to help the fraternal Slavic states since Russians do not abandon their own.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 11 2013 20: 24
              -4
              Are you talking about hiking in the Balkans now? Let's say the Russian tsars were worried about human rights in the Balkans (although they didn't even give a damn about their Russian serfs). But before that, Russia constantly invaded Crimea. Did you save non-existent "Crimean Russians"? Or maybe you just don't want to call a spade a spade? If Ivan the Terrible butted stupidly with all the neighbors around the entire perimeter in order to seize more lands (both Russian, and Tatar, and Baltic, and Polish, and Finnish), then Peter the Great had already formed a geopolitical idea - to have access to the seas. For the sake of this, they made their way to the Baltic, for the sake of this, they tried to reach the Black Sea. And Grozny and Pyotr Alekseevich didn't care at all about the "fraternal Slavs." Then, when Crimea was captured, Russia wanted to own the Caucasus - as an important geopolitical point in those years between Persia, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. And the Armenians, Georgians and others were a small bargaining chip in the relations of empires. Just like Serbs, Bulgarians and other Finns, Greeks, Estonians. There was an opportunity to take Ukraine away from Poland - the Romanovs started doing it. Poland weakened - tore this country with other empires. The Ottoman Empire weakened, climbed into the Balkans in the hope of snatching something. Out of the Romanovs and the nobles, you are making some kind of disinterested idealists who dreamed of freedom for all Slavs. Wake up, the Romanovs and the landowners somehow freed the Russian peasants from slavery in 1861, reluctantly. And I don’t remind you exactly who fought in the Balkans in a soldier's uniform - "recruits for 20 years" are really slaves of the Empire. An interesting logic is to send your slaves to bring "the happiness of freedom" to others. This Bashkir or Kazakh could volunteer in the Russian army in the 18th century, and a Russian peasant got there by force for 20 years. And so that he was unwittingly torn away from his slave-owner-landowner, this recruit was obliged to fight all the time anywhere and with anyone, just to increase the territory of the Empire. If I'm not mistaken, Paul decided to send the Russian army to conquer India? Also to save the "oppressed Slavs"?
      2. bashkort
        bashkort April 11 2013 10: 30
        +5
        If the Crimean Khanate under the protectorate of the Ottomans in the hundreds of thousands did not steal Russians into Porto, Russia would not have climbed there. And so - preventive sweeping, creating a security zone in the southern underbelly of the nascent Russian Empire. Now Armenia is such a key security point (though too small to fully fulfill this function).
      3. Vadivak
        Vadivak April 11 2013 10: 38
        +7
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Duc, it was not the Turks who climbed into Russia, but quite the opposite. Russia climbed into the Turkish zone of influence


        And where did the peaceful Turks come from in the Balkans and Crimea? What is Istanbul from time immemorial Turkish land? Crimea has never been Turkish and I hope it will not
      4. smile
        smile April 11 2013 19: 36
        +4
        Marek Rozny
        You know, statements similar in impudence seldom come across ... they would also say that we attacked the poor Nazis ... but nothing that the problem of the slave trade, which was the main source of livelihood of the Crimeans, was finally solved only by Suvorov, destroying the top of the weightlifters in Izmail .. How many centuries have they come to rob, kill and enslave us ... but to the Turks, who often used them as skirmishers, to provocateurs. I liked it ... so there’s nothing to suffer now that we came and paid our due ... and both .. and how would you like to? Do not be shy. tell me, you are our tolerant ...
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny April 11 2013 20: 01
          -5
          Smile
          Well, tell me which one Russian A village or city was attacked by Crimeans / Ottomans?
          1. smile
            smile April 11 2013 21: 07
            +3
            Marek Rozny
            It’s not clear to you that the Crimeans took and burned even Moscow in the predatory campaigns, not to mention the centuries-old raids of the Lyudolovs on the outskirts ... until weaned them ... nothing so small a village, right? More. I hope you do not ask such naive questions? I don’t have much time. I'll be out soon. unfortunately from the site ...
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 11 2013 22: 18
              -1
              I say again that the last time the Crimeans / Ottomans appeared on the territory controlled by the Moscow state in the 16th century under Ivan the Terrible. After the defeat of the Crimean army at the Battle of Molody, the Crimeans were no longer on Russian territory.
              Crimeans / Ottomans did not rob or abuse any Russian settlements. maybe you recorded other people in Russian? Among those sold in 1289-1290. in the Cafe of Slaves, 44% were Circassians, 23% were Laz, 11% were Abkhaz, 3,5% were Cumans (Polovtsians). There are isolated mentions of Hungarians, Bulgarians, Russians. The Russian people who later fell into slavery are usually the same Russian wars who participated in the numerous Russian campaigns in the Crimea. You still write down prisoners of war soldiers of the Wehrmacht in the "victims of the Soviet ludwigs." So what? You just defined the Russian prisoners of war like that. Have you read reports about the Russians rescued from Khiva captivity? Practically not a single peaceful Russian - only soldiers and Cossacks, whom Kenesary took prisoner and then ridiculed the Khivans. But the Russian man in the street is convinced that the Khivans simply drove some "peaceful Russian villagers" into slavery, and, they say, the Russian army simply ruined the slave-owning state that attacked Russian cities and villages ...
              Maybe just specifically write, they say, in such and such a year, the Turks invaded such and such a Russian city and captured so many Russian civilians? What is the problem?
              For some reason, Khmelnitsky, Doroshenko and others, on the contrary, hugged the Turks and Crimean Tatars ... Apparently they did not know that the "evil basurmans" wanted to sell them into slavery.
              1. smile
                smile April 13 2013 07: 23
                0
                Marek Rozny
                I am happy that you personally established the nationality of the slaves sold in the KaFe .... you didn’t believe the word Slavic. white, etc. you personally checked - aha-Circassians, -44 percent, aha - the Cumans, they are Polovtsians - 3,4 percent ... what. continue to continue? Don't tell my shoes - I love my shoes and I'm sorry to throw them away .... in principle, after the super-accurate constructions you have already mentioned, there is nothing to talk to you ... well, you probably understand where you are lying or where you refer to the exact national composition the builders of the Tower of Babel ... but, nevertheless, it is curious ... that you really believe in that scientific nonsense. what did you write? :))))) I repeat, after the "data" you cited, well, let's call them that, it's just ... unproductive and uninteresting to talk to you ... well, you were an interesting nutcase - then yes ... and so ... you quite trivial and not funny ... my condolences ...)))) or improve :)))))
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny April 13 2013 22: 10
                  +1
                  except for poop, I did not expect anything from you. at least one post contained some information. some slogans and emotions. and you still study the history of Russia.
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 11 2013 20: 56
          0
          Quote: smile
          You know, statements similar in impudence seldom come across ... they would also say that we attacked the poor Nazis ... but nothing that the problem of the slave trade, which was the main source of livelihood of the Crimeans, was finally solved only by Suvorov, destroying the top of the weightlifters in Izmail .. How many centuries have they come to rob, kill and enslave us ... but to the Turks, who often used them as skirmishers, to provocateurs. I liked it ... so there’s nothing to suffer now that we came and paid our due ... and both .. and how would you like to? Do not be shy. tell me, you are our tolerant ...
          Dear Vladimir!
          Let's calm down !!
          There is some truth in Marek’s words !!
          Always before seizing some kind of territory, it is written that raids were made from there on Russia and killed their inhabitants in thousands !!!
          Here in a recent topic about Tsitsianov the same thing was stated without any facts in relation to the Baku, Karabakh and Ganja khanates !!
          But this is ridiculous)))
          These khanates ate ate themselves fought off enemies and were constantly in the struggle with their neighbors and they just didn’t have enough to go camping for thousands of kilometers !!
          I repeat not a single fact that did not appear!
          Yours!
          1. smile
            smile April 11 2013 21: 18
            +2
            Yarbay
            I will!
            And for centuries, slaves bought by the treasury from the Crimean people (by the way, the possibility of buying out our slaves that have not yet been sold, is our prerequisite for any negotiations of a century of commercials from 15 to 18) is this also fairy tales? even documented. Notice, I have to remind you after the passages about the evil Russian conquerors who attacked the peaceful Crimean and Turkish plowmen ... :)))
            I do not believe that you will go down to hypocritical statements that this is Ivan’s propaganda. Ivan the Terrible and further down the list ... I have too high an opinion of you ...
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 11 2013 22: 15
              0
              Quote: smile
              I do not believe that you will go down to hypocritical statements that this is Ivan’s propaganda. Ivan the Terrible and further down the list ... I have too high an opinion of you ...

              Hello dear!
              I understand you and I’m not saying that there were no raids, I just think that when Russia became strong and had the opportunity to take these territories, then the reason was indicated by the raids, which in some cases were in some doubts !!
              Last year, the books of Russian historians on Razin fell into the hands of, where they openly write that the raids on Persia and the Azerbaijani khanates were agreed with the tsar, only then they diverged!
              That is, there are many white spots in history!
            2. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 11 2013 22: 43
              0
              it was not necessary to attack the Crimea all the time; then there would be no Russian prisoners in the Crimea. How many campaigns did the Russian tsars organize over the years? and almost all failed.
              By the way, what did the Russian tsars have no desire to do away with the slave-owning countries of Europe? they also captured people in their European wars and gave them away only after ransom. ahhhhhh! It is strange that this does not outrage you as well as the actions of the Crimeans.
              Why are there to be modest! The Russian army itself did not disdain to indulge in ransoms:
              "The Swedish troops under the command of Count Levengaupt, all in general, both generals, officers and lower ranks, with everything that is in the army, surrender as prisoners of war to His Imperial Majesty on the following conditions:
              1. All the lower ranks in general: soldiers, horsemen, dragoons and musketeers, whatever they are called, must lay down their weapons and leave as prisoners of war before ransom ... "
              Normal practice at the time. What cannibals be made of Crimeans? There was no need to attack, there would be no "Russian slaves". And to record full of Circassians and Abkhazians as Russians is already too much.
              1. smile
                smile April 13 2013 07: 01
                +2
                Marek Rozny
                Hear ... you ... even though you have the American flag, I suppose you live somewhere closer .... nevertheless, you are not ashamed to show your stupidity here 7 interesting ... that you really don’t have enough brains to understand that Crimeans it was a very serious force. by the way, numerically comparable with us at that time, and a force whose economy was built exclusively on the slave trade ... in alliance with Kafa (I hope we don’t have to explain what it is ...) which Crimea is for Russia ... we ourselves in the internecine massacre they still couldn’t find out. who we have is the most important and beautiful .... by that time the times have passed, unfortunately. when we were able to crush any nomads THE ANSWER literally on their raids .... and about the rest of your bullshit ... even in Europe there were no such countries living exclusively from the slave trade .... everything was, but this was not .... and the Crimean Tatars were just such .... and we learned about them, unfortunately later than they are about us ... you know how in an epitaph to one virtuoso machine gunner, the group goes to the event - he - covers ... and he is warned - well, there’s a convenient way out — they’ll come out and see you ... well, he sent comrades - say, relax .... the scraps of the group come back - they look like a machine gunner and a dozen and a half corpses .... replica. ..ag, Dehan (Kenibaev) still saw a lot of people BEFORE ... Dehan killed the whole group, which was supposed to block us .... well, with the Crimeans - they saw us and felt us much earlier than we understood how these bandits in general .... damn Dehan remembered ....... sickening .....
                And you, ungracious-pah ... well, what are you saying trivial things here ... by the way, surprisingly, in the second half of your writing you are not lying ... and that neither the Swedes with their slaves, nor the Poles with the Russians and they simply cannot compare with the captive peasants with the Crimeans, whose main income was not even the results of the robbery. and Slavic slaves ... just more profitable .... do not believe me, bad, read any, I repeat - Any Russophobian Polish source ...... Hello Tolerasts! You are worthy of their last ... scratching ... I don’t know . which is more correct ... well, in short, a shit! :))))
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny April 13 2013 11: 33
                  0
                  Quote: smile
                  not ashamed to demonstrate your stupidity here

                  Quote: smile
                  you really don't have enough brains

                  Quote: smile
                  Hello tolerasts! You are worthy of their last-born ... scratching ... well, in short, a fagot!


                  Wipe the monitor? Keep your computer clean and wipe it dry regularly.
                  1) About the US flag, which is automatically assigned to me by the site - I’ve already said a hundred times on the forum. I am in Kazakhstan. Kazakh. Beeline constantly changing IP addresses, and then the Kazakh flag, then the American, pops up during the day. These are the technical issues of the provider. Although you just need a reason to spit on your monitor.
                  2) I know the history of Crimea much better than you, I have enough brains to digest information about the economy of this khanate, which was mainly engaged in the cultivation and sale of grain to Europe. It’s your mack that will break from breaking the template. All cases of the slave trade were conducted by the Genoese (Italians), all of them meticulously recorded what, how much and how much they bought, sold, resold. In the peak years, the volume of slaves in the Crimean trade never exceeded 10%, which already indicates the inconsistency of the thesis that the Crimean Khanate allegedly lived exclusively on this "business." The main slaves were residents of the hostile tribes of the Caucasus and Crimea - Adygs, Circassians, Abkhazians, etc. There were practically no Slavs. They are recorded in isolated cases. But later, there were many Russian POWs of war due to the constant unsuccessful invasions of the Russian tsars into the Crimea. Their ransomed, not mythical "Russian slaves."
                  Read the biographies of people who were in Crimean captivity in the documents of the Ambassadorial Prikaz for the XNUMXth century - everything was recorded there. There are practically no "civilians" there, only "servicemen" who carried out military service. Most of the Crimean "Russian prisoners" came from the southern districts of the Moscow state and were taken in full outside the Belgorod line... There were isolated cases of women being held captive in Crimea. All of them are noted in the mentioned documents by name. Usually the wives of service people who, together with their husbands, went to the Crimean campaigns. There are two noblewomen, one princess, four peasant women, five military wives and 13 women of "unknown" social origin at the docks in the middle of the 17th century. But there were thousands of soldiers in Crimean captivity - only after one unsuccessful Russian campaign in 1689, 15000 Russian soldiers fell into Crimean captivity. And the fact that the Russian sovereigns constantly had to ransom their prisoners of war and became the basis of the Russian myth that the Crimeans allegedly lived in the slave trade and generally invaded Russian lands for these "slaves."
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny April 13 2013 11: 34
                    0
                    Once again I ask tantrums - In what year and in what Russian settlement did the Ottomans / Crimeans invade from the time of the Battle of Molodi? Enough already splashing saliva, just write - where exactly and when the Crimeans "captured Russian slaves." Push for an answer. But I won’t see an answer - because the Crimean people on the lands of the Moscow state / Russian empire haven’t appeared since Ivan the Terrible.
                    But Europe made a gigantic deal on the slave trade in the Middle Ages. Especially in foreign lands in Asia, Africa, America. I'm not even saying that Russia itself was a slave state up to 1861. Or do you believe that serfdom is somehow different from ordinary slavery? This term was introduced to somehow distance itself from the terrible word "slavery". They say, they are not slaves, but "serfs".
                    Russian "Cathedral Code" of 1649 and decree of 1684 continued to contain the normaccording to which prisoners became slaves and could change their social status only by adopting Christianity and paying 15 rubles for themselves. Did you know about this? And did they know that the Russian troops from the campaigns brought a bunch of peaceful prisoners of the Crimea (including women and children) and sold them as slaves to Russian buyers? Even in the biography of Miloslavsky there is a curious case when he bought a Tatar slave from the Russian Cossacks for his needs, and then her sibling came and traded her for the Russian prisoner-gunner Alexander Ivanov.

                    ZY In Russia now, a cult has been made of the figure of Svyatoslav Igorevich, although Russians are trying to ignore the phrase in the Tale of Bygone Years, which conveys his words:
                    “I don’t like to sit in Kiev, I want to live in Pereyaslavets on the Danube - because there is the middle of my land, all the benefits flow there: from the Greek land, gold, pavolok, wine, various fruits; from the Czech Republic and Hungary, silver and horses; from Russia, fur and wax, honey and slaves". But from all the neighbors they made" Ludolovs "- whoever you do not stick in Russian history, not a single" normal neighbor "- all without exception are slave owners, bandits, insidious, traitors, invaders and simply cannibals. They said that even Azerbaijanis and Khivans allegedly traded "Russian slaves", hinting at their hypothetical campaigns to distant Russian lands, which never happened in reality. The Khivans had Russian POWS, who were taken by the Kazakh Khan Kenesary and presented to the Khivans as a trophy. In the same way, the Crimeans had not just "Russian slaves "and the prisoners of war who were constantly ransomed by Moscow and St. Petersburg, since among those who surrendered were very influential people, for example, Sheremetev, Romodanovsky, the son of Ivan the Terrible, etc.

                    In short, teach your own story. Useful.
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 14: 07
      0
      Quote: Vtel
      The main thing is that the Armenians do not succumb to the flattering West to friendship with the Turks.

      Alexander Dumas (Father), "The Caucasian Journey":
      "The Armenians have always lived under the rule of rulers who served a religion different from the Armenian. As a result, they turned into people who hide their thoughts, feelings and intentions, turned into swindlers and liars."
      1. Artmark
        Artmark April 11 2013 23: 26
        0
        And what about Dumas about Azerbaijan or about Azerbaijanis ???? request
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 12 2013 07: 34
          0
          Quote: ArtMark
          And what about Dumas about Azerbaijan or about Azerbaijanis ????

          Comparing Persians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis, Dumas
          gives their description and concludes that it is the latter
          can be trusted in the word (Recall to the reader that
          Dumas by "Tatars" meant Azerbaijan
          tsev, and under the adjective "Tatar" had
          do "Azerbaijani" -ed.).
          "As for the Tatar, - we have already talked about his
          type, - mixing with the Caucasian tribes decorated
          its initial features. ... Tatars make kin
          stingers with the thinnest blade, sheath with rich adornment
          the same guns with inlaid ivory
          silver and silver, for which the mountain nobleman is ready to-
          give four horses and two wives. From the Tatar there is no need to require a written obligation, it is enough
          only his words.
          "
          http://irs-az.com/pdf/090621161211.pdf
          1. Artmark
            Artmark April 12 2013 11: 06
            +1
            This is since when they say the Tatars mean Azerbaijanis ???? hi
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 12 2013 15: 00
              +2
              Quote: ArtMark
              This is since when they say the Tatars mean Azerbaijanis ????

              with those!)))
              In the days of the Russian Empire there was no term Azerbaijani!
              tried not to call and, in general, were forbidden to call Turks!
              Azerbaijanis were called either Tatars or Muslims! hi
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny April 12 2013 20: 38
                +6
                Everything is correct. Before the revolution, today's Azerbaijanis were called "Caucasian Tatars", "Adezerbaijani Tatars", "Adezerbaijani Turks" or simply "Tatars". The concepts "Azerbaijan", "Azeri" were introduced in Soviet times. In the same way, they began to call us "Kazakhs" instead of the pre-revolutionary "Kirghiz-Kaysak" or simply "Kirghiz" (our self-name is "Cossack").
  • VadimSt
    VadimSt April 11 2013 10: 19
    +3
    We'll see. In any case, the ears should be on top - the EU Eastern Partnership program has not been canceled, and its task is to dig a ditch between Russia on the one hand and Ukraine, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, and Belarus on the other.
  • paul1969
    paul1969 April 11 2013 10: 27
    -2
    Hello everyone, but I would long ago have transformed this entire region, restless fighters against infidels, into one large radioactive buffer from the south, anyway this area is already lost for Russia, the Jews will not retreat, the emirates have long sold out to their ambitions, China is not afraid of anyone anyway , but no one will run into us, the amers don't have enough sweetheart, and Europe has been urinating on lyashki since 1945 ... ... and at the same time one "Satan" in London, from there all the intrigues and evil, do not judge me severely, just remember in 2018
  • Belogor
    Belogor April 11 2013 10: 28
    +9
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Turkey is a country with its own political opinion.

    Who said such an absurdity? Turkey has never had its own opinion in the last 200-300 years. Britain then whispered something to them, or someone else.
    1. bashkort
      bashkort April 11 2013 10: 34
      +3
      To be precise in historical sequence, France first whispered (and gave a bunch of headstock and weapons), then England, then (and now) - Germany. The Turkish armed forces are mostly armed with decommissioned Bundeswehr weapons and equipment.
    2. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets April 11 2013 10: 51
      +7
      Quote: Belogor
      Turkey has never had its own opinion in the last 200-300 years. Britain then whispered something to them, or someone else.

      More precisely, Turkey believed that it had its own opinion, but in reality it was a stranger.
      1. Atlon
        Atlon April 11 2013 13: 25
        +8
        Quote: Vladimirets
        More precisely, Turkey believed that it had its own opinion, but in reality it was a stranger.

        And this is the highest talent of the puppeteer!

        "And in the process of presentation, the impression is created that the dolls are dancing by themselves ..."
        (Time Machine)
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny April 11 2013 15: 14
          -4
          So what did the puppeteers of England, France, Germany whisper to them? Without them, there would be no Russian-Turkish wars? Without them, Russia would not constantly attack the Crimea and invade the Balkans?
          What did the Turks do in inviting third countries in their history? They even sent Hitler three letters when he asked for military alliance.
          Tell us specifically what your declared "puppeteers" have done.
          1. Ascetic
            Ascetic April 11 2013 15: 58
            11
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Tell us specifically what your declared "puppeteers" have done.


            It is enough to have some idea of ​​the concept of the EASTERN QUESTION and how this issue was resolved by English diplomacy and politics from the end of the 18th century, at least.

            Despite the numerous Russian-Turkish wars, Turkey and Russia are more profitable to be allies than enemies. The Russian-Turkish strategic union would put an end to the hegemony of the West both in the Black Sea basin and in the Middle East. This was well understood in London and Paris, and therefore sought by any means to provoke a clash of the two empires. Today, the United States is trying to prevent rapprochement between Ankara and Moscow.
            Now, briefly, what has been the main goal of puppeteers for centuries: to keep Turkey in its sphere of influence and not to allow an independent policy, which they have been successful to this day. Russia will not and will not need a strong Turkey as a counterweight to Russia in the region, which will turn into a kind of medieval emirate like Saudi Arabia or something like that, it’s easier for savages to manage or, at worst, not to fear competition from them in terms of creating strong and independent states.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 11 2013 17: 09
              +1
              I completely agree with your opinion that it is more profitable for Turkey and Russia to be allies than enemies. Moreover, although the Turks remember the past well, they never dwell on it, they are more interested in the future than reflections and age-old grievances. I talked with a very large number of Turks, everyone is very friendly towards Russia and none of them considered Russia a "potential enemy". I have heard much more unflattering words about the Russian people from the Slavs - Czechs, Poles and even Bulgarians. Moreover, lately, I often hear in conversations with the Turks that they are interested in the Eurasian Union being created and, in general, maximum integration with the "Soviet" world. As a Eurasian, I am deeply convinced that Turkey (along with some other neighboring countries) is our natural ally and adequate partner. Integration of the EAU and Turkey in any format will only benefit us all and in spite of the Western European world, which has never considered us and will not consider us as friends.
              I also completely agree with the thesis that the United States is trying in every possible way to prevent rapprochement between Ankara and Moscow. The Turks themselves understand this. I talked about this for many hours with them. The Turks understand that any Western "friendly advice" is not good for Turkey itself. And on the contrary, they all want to strengthen ties with us - the key CIS countries.

              Nevertheless, the Russo-Turkish wars were waged by Turkey and Russia meaningfully - for their spheres of influence. Russia needed access to the Black Sea, the Ottomans needed to save the Crimean Tatars. Russia needed the Caucasus, the Ottomans needed to protect their interests. Now that these problems have long ceased to exist (in the Crimea, the Turkic issue is irrelevant, in the Caucasus - Russian influence is undeniable, despite the temporary Georgian conflict), the Turks do not see any obstacles to rapprochement with Moscow. The problem is in Moscow, which since Soviet times has been living with an outdated cliche about the Turks and Turkey.
              1. Atlon
                Atlon April 11 2013 17: 29
                +3
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                I completely agree with your opinion that it is more profitable for Turkey and Russia to be allies than enemies. Moreover, the Turks, although they remember the past well, but never dwell on it, they are more interested in the future than reflections and age-old insults.

                The same can be said of the Germans! However, instigated by London, the Germans fought twice with Russia over the past 100 years!
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny April 12 2013 01: 00
                  0
                  Yeah, did Churchill inspire Hitler to fight Bolshevism? And the conflict in Sarajevo before the First World War was also organized by the British? Did English propaganda teach the Germans about the racial inferiority of the Slavs? If the British were good strategists and "gray cardinals", then at least they could keep their colonies. And as a result, a small barking dog on a tiny island. The Russians have made some kind of monsters out of all the neighbors - the Turks are supposedly sharpening knives, the British are supposedly brilliant puppeteers (though they profiled their own empire and now the Yankees are licking their shoes), etc. Well, the whole world is treacherous and treacherous, we are the only white fluffs, sniffing daisies in the May meadow.
              2. Murat 09
                Murat 09 April 11 2013 19: 41
                +4
                Marek, you say correctly, both the Islamic world (represented by Turkey) and Russia benefit from their union, which the Westerners are trying to prevent by all means. For example, in the economic sphere, the world will probably be divided into 5-6 macro-regions according to the results of the crisis (read Khazina), and to keep technologies at least at the level of the 50s, 500-600 million consumers are needed. And how many are there in Russia? not more than 100 million. And in alliance with the Islamic worlds, Russia can have up to one and a half billion consumers, which will preserve the level of technology already in the 80s, which is already good. This union is also important for military purposes, do not forget that after a few there will be only about 300 people a year in Russia, and a large part of them will be Muslims. And according to some experts, by 000 our strategic nuclear forces can be reduced to 2017-100 carriers with several hundred warheads (since the collapse of the Union, warheads have not yet entered service, and the half-lives of plutonium have not yet been canceled) due to the end of the life of missiles and the degradation of plutonium in warheads. And the Islamic world is hundreds of millions of potential fighters who are ready to die on the battlefield, and if Russia is in the alliance with them, who dare to attack her? And the alliance with Russia is beneficial for the Islamic world in the influx of technologies, weapons that we still have, Russia could also be a mediator in hassles of Sunnis and Shiites, and in general, the more complex the system (i.e. the alliance), the more competitive it is. And the advice to the Russian patriots not to succumb to the provocations of the liberals, even if served under patriotic sauce - we are them, who they are, these Turks, we always fought with them, etc. We need to look at what is now beneficial to the country, its people. Note that the most aggressive anti-Islamic rhetoric is spoken by liberals such as Latin, Solovyov, Weller, and others like them.
  • Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 April 11 2013 10: 58
    +6
    The Ottoman Empire, the forerunner of Turkey, gobbled up millions of Greeks, Slavs, Armenians, and Turkey is a chain dog of arrogant Saxons in the Middle East.
  • Manager
    Manager April 11 2013 11: 00
    +4
    I don’t even know what to say. Just show.
  • воронов
    воронов April 11 2013 11: 02
    +4
    Turks daydream all the time of the Ottoman Empire
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 15: 24
      +3
      Does Turkey have territorial claims against its neighbors?
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 15: 37
        +2
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Does Turkey have territorial claims against its neighbors?


        accurate to noobarot !!)))
        Armenia has territorial claims against Turkey and they are stated in the Constitution of Armenia !!
        1. knn54
          knn54 April 11 2013 19: 48
          +3
          Marek Rozny. Does Turkey have territorial claims against its neighbors?
          Davutoglu, author of the book "Deep Strategy". In it, he declares the Ottoman heritage to be the zone of "responsibility" of Turkey.
          PS Turkey has been engaged in outright robberies in the northern regions of Syria for several weeks now. Brigade trucks come there to take out everything that can be taken out - for example, they dismantle machine tools and take out entire factories.
          There are teams that specialize in works of art and archaeological plunder centers. In Antioch, even opened a huge antiques market, where you can openly buy items that appear in the catalogs as a national treasure of mankind. There is also a semi-legal Turkish-French company, based in Paris, where you can place an order for one or the other antiques. The order will be handed over to the Turkish army and she pack everything you need. The order is then delivered to Antioch, and from there flown to Paris to the customer.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 11 2013 21: 04
            -2
            [quote = knn54] Davutoglu, author of the book "Deep Strategy". In it, he declares the Ottoman heritage to be the zone of "responsibility" of Turkey [/ quote]
            And what do you think is the territorial pritenzy ??
            The fact that Russia considers the countries of the former USSR a zone of its national interests is territorial claims? [Quote = knn54] Marek Rozny. Does Turkey have territorial claims to its neighbors?

            [quote = knn54] PS Turkey for several weeks now began to engage in outright robberies in the northern regions of Syr [/ quote]
            Well this is funny and stupid !!
            I have not written about this before, but when you write such things, I cannot but answer !!
            Please show the facts, not the words of Thunder !!
            Especially since the Turkish army was doing this-nonsense !!
            I suppose that the militants take out all kinds of machines and sell them to the Turks in Turkey, which is possible!
        2. knn54
          knn54 April 11 2013 20: 02
          +3
          Alibek. Armenia has territorial claims against Turkey and they are stated in the Constitution of Armenia !!
          Nothing personal, but ...
          During the Istanbul Summit, when the 20th anniversary of the organization of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation was celebrated, the secretariat published the book “Two decades of cooperation in the Black Sea region: successes, lessons learned and prospects for the future in the BSEC process”. It contains an interesting fact - in the encyclopedic certificate dedicated to Armenia, a photograph of Masis and Sis (Big and Small Ararat) is posted. It turns out that Turkey recognizes that Mount Ararat belongs to Armenia?
          On August 10, 1920, the Sevres peace treaty was signed between the countries of the Entente and the countries of the Entente, including the Republic of Armenia, in which the Dashnaktsutyun party ruled on the one hand and Turkey on the other. In accordance with the agreement, Turkey recognized the independence of Armenia. In accordance with other clauses of the treaty, Turkish statehood was virtually liquidated - almost two-thirds of the territory of Turkey, including Istanbul and Izmir, were torn away from Turkey in favor of the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds, and the Turks themselves were allocated only a small piece of land around Ankara.
          In accordance with the Kars Treaty of 1921, Turkey regained all the territories of Transcaucasia conquered by the Russian Empire in the war of 1877-1878. Mount Ararat remained in Turkey.
          From the point of view of international diplomacy, the Administration of Mustafa Kemal did not have any legal basis to represent the Turkish state in interstate relations, at least until November 1922, when Sultan Sultan Mehmed VI emigrated from Turkey. In 1921, Kemal (with all due respect) was just a state criminal on the run. And for this reason, on April 11, 1920, fatwa (kondak) of the highest spiritual hierarch of the empire - Sheikh ul-Islam Kemal was sentenced to death. On May 11 of the same year, a Turkish military tribunal issued a death sentence against him. On May 24, 1920, this sentence was confirmed by the Sultan.
          At the time of conclusion of the treaty of the recognized state, the “Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic” did not exist, therefore, there was no such subject of international law. Naturally, his government did not have the authority to conclude any kind of international treaty. Legal international recognition of the RSFSR (USSR) - began only on February 1, 1924 with the recognition of the USSR by Great Britain.
          PS The Turks fought with the Entente, turning (the enemy of my enemy, my friend) into an ally of Soviet Russia. In addition, the Turks gave Batumi to the RSFSR ...
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 11 2013 21: 18
            -3
            Quote: knn54
            During the Istanbul Summit, when the 20th anniversary of the organization of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation was celebrated, the secretariat published the book “Two decades of cooperation in the Black Sea region: successes, lessons learned and prospects for the future in the BSEC process”. It contains an interesting fact - in the encyclopedic certificate dedicated to Armenia, a photograph of Masis and Sis (Big and Small Ararat) is posted. It turns out that Turkey recognizes that Mount Ararat belongs to Armenia?

            Can I link to a brochure?))))))))))
          2. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 11 2013 21: 23
            -3
            Quote: knn54
            August 10, 1920 between the countries of the Entente and the countries of the Allied Entente,

            Stop reading and copy-paste the Armenian sources, which have always been famous throughout the world for mildly inaccuracies !!
            To write a lot, I will give you links first, read at your leisure!
            http://www.regnum.ru/news/1441722.html

            Despite a number of differences of opinion and disputes, the foundations of relations between Turkey and the republics of the South Caucasus were reflected in the Treaty of Kars, which was signed on October 13, 1921 at 14.00. The treaty, consisting of 20 articles and three annexes, was concluded with the participation of Soviet Russia between Turkey and the Soviet republics of Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia. Its preamble stated: "The Governments of the Socialist Soviet Republic of Armenia, the Azerbaijan Socialist Soviet Republic and the Socialist Soviet Republic of Georgia, on the one hand, and the Government of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, on the other, sharing the principles of the brotherhood of nations and the right of peoples to self-determination, inspired by the desire to establish between them constant cordial relations and continuous sincere friendship based on the mutual interests of both parties, decided to start negotiations with the participation of the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic in order to conclude a Treaty of Friendship "(The full text of the Treaty has been published: USSR Foreign Policy Documents. Vol. IV, M ., 1960, S. 420-4

            In the very first article of the treaty, both parties recognized as "canceled and invalid the treaties concluded between the states that previously exercised their sovereign rights in the territory that is now part of the territory of the Contracting Parties and concerning the aforementioned territories, as well as treaties concluded with third powers and concerning the Transcaucasian Republics ". A reservation was immediately made to the effect that this article does not apply to the Moscow Treaty concluded between Kemalist Turkey and Bolshevik Russia on March 16, 1921.

            In the second article of the treaty, it was noted that the concept of Turkey means the territories included in the National Pact (Misak-ı Milli) of January 28, 1920, proclaimed by the Ottoman Chamber of Deputies in Constantinople, brought to all states and published in the press. The contracting parties agreed "not to recognize any peace treaties or other international acts, the adoption of which would be forced by force by one of them." By virtue of this, the Governments of the Socialist Soviet Republics of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia agreed "not to recognize any international acts concerning Turkey and not recognized by the National Government of Turkey, now represented by its Grand National Assembly." This article meant non-recognition by all three South Caucasian republics of the Sevres Treaty of August 10, 1920, and Armenia, in turn, agreed to Turkey's sovereignty within the borders provided for by the National Pact (Misak-ı Milli). According to the Turkish historian-diplomat Jandan Azer, this meant abandoning the claims to the mythical "Great Armenia", which the Armenians cherished, remembering the Sevres Treaty (Candan Azer. Babadan Oğula Güney Kafkasya. Türkiye - Güney Kafkasiya İlişkileri. İstanbul, 2011, S. -304).


            http://www.regnum.ru/nhtmews/1490052.l

            Please read there a lot !!
      2. smile
        smile April 11 2013 20: 10
        +6
        Marek Rozny
        And how to assess the regularly revealed activity of the emissaries of the Turkish special services in Bashkiria, Tatarstan, even in Crimea. fueling the ideas of the Great Turan — like childish pranks? I'm not talking about the closest ties with Nokhchi during the Chechen wars ....
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 11 2013 22: 21
          -2
          Quote: smile
          And how to assess the regularly revealed activity of the emissaries of the Turkish special services in Bashkiria, Tatarstan, even in Crimea. fueling the ideas of the Great Turan — like childish pranks? I'm not talking about the closest ties with Nokhchi during the Chechen wars ....

          Vladimir about the Turkish intelligence, there is a slightly different structure than we used to see and know !! They are very heterogeneous!
          For example, during a coup attempt in 1995, diplomats from the Turkish embassy and special services were involved in this, however, other representatives apparently informed our services about this in time!
          There are rivalries and different views inside the services!
        2. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny April 11 2013 23: 58
          +4
          Well, what have the "Turkish special services" done in our area? Are they calling on the Volga Tatars to separatism? Yes, there was no such thing.
          Everyone spies on each other. You might think of Russian scouts in Turkey Nem ...
          And how did the Turks help the Nokhchis specifically? Did you give money, weapons? Not. Well, the Chechens came to Turkey. But what should the Turks do? Arrest them? Based on what? Based on what legislation?
          In Kazakhstan, during the Chechen massacre, we also had a bunch of Chechens. Both refugees and people with a dubious reputation. All who were on the international wanted list were arrested and handed over to the Russians. Everyone else arrived in Kazakhstan calmly. We have no dossiers on all Chechens. Who was asked to detain or arrest - those detained by the police. To the rest, our justice (and yours) did not have any questions.
  • niklev65
    niklev65 April 11 2013 11: 12
    +3
    And to me the situation in the Middle East reminded me of a plot from the notes about Sherlock Holmes "Colorful Ribbon" ... When Holmes lashed off a snake and it bitten its master about ... Over-strengthening of the Caspian Flotilla, endless exercises and maneuvers in the North Caucasus, etc. It’s as if we’re waiting, don’t shoot, let them come closer! And kick it in the nose, but surely so that not a single dog (may this animal forgive me) dug in! Where did Saakashvili's fighters run? Straight to Tbilisi ... Then (it seems to me) there was the first warning. Hence the vague position of our leadership ... It seems to lure and lull vigilance. At least I would like it to be so ...
  • Yeraz
    Yeraz April 11 2013 11: 15
    10
    Yes, the Armenians will not succumb until there is a Karabakh conflict, they themselves understand any sharp movement in the West’s side, the Russians will simply say that we have left Azerbaijanis to smoke, you can start a war. And that’s all. Russia is the guarantor of Armenia’s independence. As soon as Russia weakens Armenia slips away in an instant They have a huge magnet of attraction in the form of the Armenian diaspora in the West, which is more efficient, cohesively economically insanely stronger than the entire Armenian state, therefore, one leg of Armenia will always be there.
  • dany
    dany April 11 2013 11: 40
    +2
    Quote: Marek Rozny

    The argument that Russia saved Serbs / Bulgarians from slavery is complete absurdity. The tsars did not consider their citizens to be people, and then they suddenly "worried" about human rights in all the Caucasus-Balkans. By the way, Bulgarians believe that Turks are closer to them than Russians. With all that it implies.


    Yes, our rulers are just darlings compared to "Civilized Europe"
    http://topwar.ru/26122-vspominaya-istoriyu-zverskaya-evropa.html
  • Black
    Black April 11 2013 11: 45
    +3
    A short Armenian memory will lead to great Armenian troubles.
    1. Humpty
      Humpty April 11 2013 12: 12
      -2
      In some ways you are right. In the 88th, rescue teams from all over the Union quickly arrived to help, many of my friends were there. I was not taken for infancy, although I asked. Upon delivery of humanitarian aid, 2 planes crashed. One Soviet, flying out of Azerbaijan and Yugoslav. A year later, hysteria began in Armenia to exit the Union. An important argument of anti-Soviet agitation was the lack of dairy products. On average, in the USSR, milk consumption was significantly higher than in developed cap. countries. In Armenia, the consumption of dairy products was approximately twice as high as the national average.
      1. Artmark
        Artmark April 11 2013 12: 47
        0
        YOU READ. WHAT TO WRITE ??? lol lol
    2. Artmark
      Artmark April 11 2013 12: 45
      +4
      DEAR WELCOME, WHAT DID YOU TAKE THAT THE ARMENIANS HAVE A SHORT MEMORY? THAT THE TURKS HAVE DONE WITH THE ARMENIANS THIS ALREADY AT THE GENE LEVEL, THIS IS IN BLOOD AND THIS WILL NOT BE FORGET !!! AND WHAT POLITICIANS DO IT ... SURE YOU KNOW THE POLITICIANS IT'S HOW AN EASY PROBLEMS. WHO PAY MORE THAN AND LIE hi
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 11 2013 15: 40
        -3
        Quote: ArtMark
        THAT. WHAT THE TURKS HAVE DONE WITH THE ARMENIANS, THIS IS ALREADY AT THE GENE, THIS IS IN BLOOD AND THIS IT WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN !!! AND WHAT POLITICIANS DO IT ... SURE YOU KNOW THE POLITICIANS IT'S HOW AN EASY PROBLEMS. WHO PAY MORE THAN AND LIE

        You never answered why, then, hundreds of thousands of Armenians go to Turkey to earn money and live there ??)))
        I myself saw an Armenian in Istanbul tearfully swearing love for Turkey and the Turkish people !!
  • Tartary
    Tartary April 11 2013 13: 11
    +1
    Well, why is it not right, in the case of a deliberate demonstrative exit of a country of the former USSR from a geopolitical and strategic alliance with Russia, to take and sharply limit economic loyalty to the citizens of that country ... To prohibit doing business in Russia, are there any other restrictions?
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 17
    +4
    Quote: Andrey57
    Turkey will receive its "Gambit" in full, and what Joseph Vissarionovich could not do in August 1945 - to gouge Turkey, tear it apart and take the straits, we will do it a little later, we will give Constantinople to the Greeks, it is a pity that we will not do without war .. ... hi

    Are you serious?
  • radio operator
    radio operator April 11 2013 13: 22
    +4
    I do not think that the Turks have something serious happened with Armenia. More likely with Georgia.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 15: 31
      -2
      Turks communicate very well with Georgia. It is a pity that Russia cannot begin to talk with Tbilisi in any way. Could congratulate Ivanishvili on his election victory. This person can become a bridge between the two countries.
      1. smile
        smile April 11 2013 20: 20
        +4
        Marek Rozny
        Well, they put the USA on a smarter puppet, let’s talk ... if they offer something constructive, we’ll naturally meet them .. here you explain to them that it’s time to talk and not beg us to be their market for their not the best products, not offering nothing in return .. the time for subsidies from the USSR has passed, but for some reason they don’t want to understand it ... miracles! :))))
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny April 12 2013 20: 59
          +1
          Ivanishvili - a protege of the Americans ??? Do you even know anything about him, or are you just messing around? If Ivanishvili is an agent of the State Department, then I am a ballerina.

          Z.Y. Without a Russian market, they calmly manage. It’s shitty that your spoiled media from Georgians made some scumbags. Although, given that your media belong to either the Kremlin or foreign puppeteers who do not want integration between the former Soviet republics, this is not surprising. You willingly believe in any crap that you will be told on state or private TV. And other sources of information are not available to you. It’s easier for you to believe that Georgians are the enemy, because for 20 years you’ve been driven into the idea that the Russians have nothing to do with non-Russians.
          1. smile
            smile April 13 2013 07: 54
            0
            Marek Rozny
            Wah !!!! Yeah, are you and me now? N u, then catch: you ballerina, then ... tormented by corporate parties, putting chewed plantain to the busy place, remember - I hardly removed the Georgian TV channel from the cable TV package six months ago ... I got it stupid propaganda, where is ours ... maybe they have a smarter one, but I didn’t see it, I see enough people like you, victims, and such .... and after that ... after what I I saw and heard myself ... you should shut up and calm down, it didn’t fail ... especially since you should lick the place ... it’s accepted in animals .... Good luck, all the best! :)))))
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny April 13 2013 12: 07
              +2
              And with a fig whether I will call all nonsense on "you"? Not today you started pouring direct insults at me. Who is to blame that apart from hysteria in your posts there is not a single adequate answer. No facts, no logic. Only splashing saliva towards opponents.
              Z.Y. And what are you on the topic of anal switched? Blue or what? I personally have no idea whatsoever on this subject. So you know better what and how to lick there. Watch the bazaar.
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 24
    -1
    Quote: ArtMark
    Armenians have not forgotten anything! they will not forget anything !! stop

    Rather, the Armenians are incorrigible
  • tihi. 2012
    tihi. 2012 April 11 2013 13: 25
    +1
    At the expense of the gene level, you are absolutely right. We have not forgotten anything and will not forgive anyone! Personally, I have every moral right to slaughter one and a half million Turks! And as soon as such an opportunity is provided, I will realize it!
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 36
      -7
      Quote: tihi. 2012
      Personally, I have every moral right to slaughter one and a half million Turks

      Personally, I have the moral right to cut out all the remaining Armenians !! but I won’t do it !!

      The great Amir Timur (Tamerlan) said: History will not forgive me 2 things:
      "1) The fact that I wanted to destroy the Armenians as an ethnos, 2) and the second, because I did not do it. True, there are good among the Armenians, but in general the people are disgusting. He will never express his thoughts in person, therefore it seems cultured, but in a convenient case will stab. "
      1. ultra
        ultra April 11 2013 20: 44
        +4
        Quote: Yarbay
        The great Amir Timur (Tamerlan) said: History will not forgive me 2 things:

        Did he tell you personally? lol
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 14: 03
      -1
      Quote: tihi. 2012
      . We have not forgotten anything and will not forgive anyone!

      Georgian writer Sergi Sajaya: "Armenians are not lions, but only jackals serving stronger nations"
      P.Kerop Patkanov. Van inscriptions and their significance for the history of Western Asia. St. Petersburg. 1981, p. 36-37. From the book by Magdy Neumann "Armenia". St. Petersburg, 1899.
      "Armenia, as a state, did not play any significant role in the history of mankind, its name was a geographical term spread by the Armenians, it was a place for resolving disputes between strong states - Assyrians, Medes, Iranians, Greeks, Mongols, Russians ..."
      "Immediately after the conclusion of the Turkmenchay Treaty (February 10, 1828) under the leadership of Paskevich, 40 thousand Armenians from Iran and 90 thousand Armenians from Turkey were resettled to Azerbaijan. In total, in 1828-1896, more than 1 million were resettled from Iran and Turkey. Of these, 200 people were accommodated in the western lands of Azerbaijan, and the rest - in Karabakh and the Elizavetpol (Ganja) province. people".
  • Yeraz
    Yeraz April 11 2013 13: 25
    0
    Quote: ArtMark
    DEAR WELCOME, WHAT DID YOU TAKE THAT THE ARMENIANS HAVE A SHORT MEMORY? THAT THE TURKS HAVE DONE WITH THE ARMENIANS THIS ALREADY AT THE GENE LEVEL, THIS IS IN BLOOD AND THIS WILL NOT BE FORGET !!! AND WHAT POLITICIANS DO IT ... SURE YOU KNOW THE POLITICIANS IT'S HOW AN EASY PROBLEMS. WHO PAY MORE THAN AND LIE hi

    Yes, it’s understandable. Armenians call the Azerbaijanis simply Turks. Hatred at the genetic level, but I think many did not mean that the Armenians abruptly surfaced with love for the Turks, but just Turkey we mean the West and the rapprochement is not specifically with Turkey, but the West. And do not here we can talk about the great love of Armenians for Russia, taking into account the role of Russia in creating the preservation of Armenians, the attitude towards Russia where so-so, where it is very bad or a little good.
    To recall the hysteria about Russian schools just a couple of years ago, the accusation of Russian treason due to the cooperation of Lenin and Ataturk, the last statement of the former head of the Central Bank of Armenia, saying that when the Armenians were Russian Christians jumped from tree to tree and Armenia’s place is not in the Eurasian Union, but together with the civilized Christian West. Given the importance of Russia for Armenia, Western sentiments should be at zero, but for some reason there are a lot of them.
    Do you think the base of Armenia is a defense against Azerbaijan or Turkey? Not really, the Russian troops are so close, the border of Russia and Azerbaijan, plus the bases in Abkhazia and Ossetia, the troops are inside Armenia, so that these movements do not get out of control and be a constant reminder , to whom Armenia owes its physical existence.
  • sven27
    sven27 April 11 2013 13: 28
    +5
    What "Armenian-Turkish rapprochement", ARMENIANS OF TURKS WILL NEVER FORGIVE. Article minus
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 13: 34
      -4
      Quote: sven27
      What "Armenian-Turkish rapprochement", ARMENIANS OF TURKS WILL NEVER FORGIVE. Article minus

      these are Turks and Azerbaijanis will NEVER forgive Armenians!
  • Alikovo
    Alikovo April 11 2013 13: 36
    +9
    RUSSIAN TURKS ALWAYS BEATED:
    The Russo-Turkish War of 1568-1570. Ivan the Terrible beat them under Astrakhan.
    The Russian-Turkish war of 1672−1681 the conclusion of the Bakhchisaray peace, NOTHING WAS ACHIEVED.
    The Russo-Turkish War of 1686–1700, the victory of Russia and Austria, PETR 1.
    The Russian-Turkish War of 1710-1713 FIRST DESTRUCTION, PETER 1.
    The Russian-Turkish War (Russian-Austro-Turkish) 1735-1739 MINI.
    The Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774 RUMYANTSEV, SUVOROV, EAGLES, USHAKOV. GATHERED THEIR NAVY AND THE ARMY.
    The Russo-Turkish War of 1787-1791 POTEMKIN, SUVOROV, RUMYANTSEV, REPNIN, USHAKOV. ALL THE SAME RESULT.
    The Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812 BAGRATION, KUTUZOV, SENYAVIN. 2/3 ARMIES DESTROYED.
    The Russian-Turkish war of 1828-1829 PASKEVICH AND DIBICH. 1 \ 3 ARMY NO.
    Crimean War of 1853-1856 SAD PAGE IN THE MILITARY HISTORY OF RUSSIA.
    The Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 SKOBELYOV reached Istanbul.
    1. Manager
      Manager April 11 2013 13: 48
      +9
      Quote: Alikovo
      Crimean War of 1853-1856 SAD PAGE IN THE MILITARY HISTORY OF RUSSIA.


      More ..... (Here we did not lose to the Turks, but to France, England and the Turks.

      The Crimean War of 1853-1856, also the Eastern War - the war between the Russian Empire and the coalition as part of the British, French, Ottoman Empires and the Sardinian Kingdom. The fighting took place in the Caucasus, in the Danube principalities, in the Baltic, Black, White and Barents Seas, as well as in Kamchatka. They reached the greatest tension in Crimea.
      By the middle of the 4th century, the Ottoman Empire was in decline, and only direct military assistance from Russia, England, France and Austria allowed the Sultan to twice prevent the capture of Constantinople by the rebel vassal Muhammad Ali of Egypt. In addition, the struggle of the Orthodox peoples for liberation from the Ottoman yoke continued (see Eastern question) [5] [1850]. These factors led to the appearance in the Russian emperor Nicholas I in the early 6s of thoughts on the separation of the Balkan possessions of the Ottoman Empire, inhabited by Orthodox peoples [7] [8], which Britain and Austria opposed. Great Britain, in addition, sought to oust Russia from the Black Sea coast of the Caucasus [9] and from Transcaucasia [1812]. The Emperor of France, Napoleon III, although he did not share the British plans to weaken Russia, considering them excessive, supported the war with Russia as a revenge for XNUMX and as a means of strengthening personal power.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 15: 53
      0
      Peter the Great defeated the Ottoman Empire? Yah? And Azov gave it back to the Turks out of the kindness of his soul? And why did the "losers" Turks insist that Russia pay an annual tribute? Peter the Great won only on this point of the peace treaty. And in all other respects he was forced to make concessions to the Turks.
      In addition, many Russian campaigns that were defeated or failed without a fight were not mentioned. And in the days of Hetman Doroshenko, and the campaigns of the Romanov commanders, etc.
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 April 11 2013 13: 41
    -1
    Quote: ArtMark
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Turks normally belong to the Armenians.

    Yes, when they want to insult a friend, they call them Armenians, that’s respect hi

    HOW TO CALL TRADERS?
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz April 11 2013 13: 59
      -4
      Quote: xetai9977
      Quote: ArtMark
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Turks normally belong to the Armenians.

      Yes, when they want to insult a friend, they call them Armenians, that’s respect hi

      HOW TO CALL TRADERS?

      I will tell you how, ANDRANIC should be called wink
    2. Yeraz
      Yeraz April 11 2013 14: 00
      0
      Quote: xetai9977
      Quote: ArtMark
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      Turks normally belong to the Armenians.

      Yes, when they want to insult a friend, they call them Armenians, that’s respect hi

      HOW TO CALL TRADERS?

      I'll tell you how. ANDRANIC should be called wink
  • Manager
    Manager April 11 2013 13: 48
    +4
    In the ensuing hostilities, the Allies succeeded, using the technical backlog of the Russian troops [13] [14] and the indecision of the Russian command [15] [16], to concentrate quantitatively and qualitatively superior forces of the army and navy in the Black Sea, which allowed them to make a successful landing in Crimea, to inflict a number of defeats on the Russian army and, after a year's siege, capture the southern part of Sevastopol - the main base of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Sevastopol Bay, the place of deployment of the Russian fleet, remained under Russian control. On the Caucasian front, Russian troops managed to inflict a series of defeats on the Turkish army and capture Kars. However, the threat of Austria and Prussia joining the war forced the Russians to accept the peace conditions imposed by the Allies. The Paris Peace Treaty, signed in 1856, demanded that Russia return the Ottoman Empire to everything captured in southern Bessarabia, at the mouth of the Danube River and in the Caucasus; the empire was forbidden to have a battle fleet in the Black Sea, proclaimed neutral waters; Russia stopped military construction in the Baltic Sea, and much more. At the same time, the goals of tearing large territories away from Russia were not achieved. The terms of the agreement reflected a virtually equal course of hostilities, when the Allies, despite all the efforts and heavy losses, were unable to advance beyond the Crimea, and were defeated in the Caucasus.
  • sven27
    sven27 April 11 2013 13: 54
    +6
    Quote: Yarbay
    Quote: sven27
    What "Armenian-Turkish rapprochement", ARMENIANS OF TURKS WILL NEVER FORGIVE. Article minus

    these are Turks and Azerbaijanis will NEVER forgive Armenians!

    Well, let it be so, but in any case, the union of the Turks (Azerbaijanis) with the Armenians is IMPOSSIBLE.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 14: 01
      0
      Quote: sven27
      Well, let it be so, but in any case, the union of the Turks (Azerbaijanis) with the Armenians is IMPOSSIBLE.

      of course .. here the author does not write, but under pressure from Azerbaijani diplomacy, not only the flight to Van did not open, but the Istanbul-Yerevan flight closes too !!
      And what exactly Azerbaijan did not allow to ratify the Turkish-Armenian protocols !!
      And the Armenians were ready!
      German activist and scientist Kolmer von der Goltz, "Anatolian sketches"
      "Everyone who is familiar with the bulk of the population in the provinces of Anatolia quickly gets used to respect and love the Turks, despise the Greeks and hate the Armenians. The local proverb" a Greek will deceive two Jews, and an Armenian will deceive two Greeks "justifies itself everywhere. If anywhere in Anatolia you deceived, then we can say with certainty that you met with the Armenians. I do without any written agreement when I deal with a Turk, because only his word is enough. When I deal with a Greek or other Levantines, I conclude a written agreement, because with them you cannot do business otherwise. With the Armenians, I do not even have any written confirmation of business, because even a written condition will not save Armenians from intrigues and lies. "
  • sven27
    sven27 April 11 2013 14: 11
    -4
    Quote: Yarbay
    With the Armenians, I do not even have any written confirmation of affairs, for even a written condition will not save Armenians from intrigues and lies. "

    Then I completely agree with you))) I had an Armenian partner laughing
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 15: 13
      +3
      Quote: sven27
      Then I completely agree with you))) I had an Armenian partner

      it's not with me))))
      And with Colmer von der Goltz !!
      Seen strongly on ..ali him)))))))))
  • sven27
    sven27 April 11 2013 14: 15
    +2
    Quote: Yarbay
    And what exactly Azerbaijan did not allow to ratify the Turkish-Armenian protocols !!
    And the Armenians were ready!

    and by the way, what kind of protocols can be found in more detail
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 16: 47
      +2
      Quote: sven27
      and by the way, what kind of protocols can be found in more detail

      Throughout the year, negotiations were held in Switzerland on the opening of borders and the restoration of diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia under the checkpoint of Russia and the USA!
      At the last stage, before signing the protocols, they learned about this in Azerbaijan !!
      Azerbaijan threatened Turkey that it would sell oil and gas to Turkey at world prices and stop its transportation through the territory of Turkey and there were several more moments!
      Turkey has not ratified the protocols !!
      Then, like Armenia, it got too busy)))

      On October 10, 2009, the Foreign Ministers of Turkey and Armenia Ahmet Davutoglu and Edward Nalbandian signed the Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations and the Protocol on the Development of Bilateral Relations in Zurich, Switzerland. The documents provide for the creation of a joint commission of "independent historians" to study the issue of the 1915 Armenian genocide. The signing of the protocols was delayed for three hours due to disagreements on the final statements: the Armenian side in its speech wanted to indirectly mention the 1915 genocide, and the Turkish side - the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. As a result, no closing speeches were made. The Armenian opposition opposed the signing of the protocols as proposed, expressing dissatisfaction, in particular, with clauses on the mutual recognition of borders and territorial integrity of other states. On October 11 of that year, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced that the US government would do everything in its power to consolidate the success achieved by Turkey and Armenia. On the same day, the Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry criticized Turkey for signing agreements without resolving the Karabakh conflict. The ratification process of the protocols by the parliaments of Turkey and Armenia was frozen indefinitely.
      1. sven27
        sven27 April 12 2013 10: 22
        0
        Thank you, interesting facts, did not know ... plus you
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 12 2013 10: 50
          -2
          Quote: sven27
          Interesting Facts,

          pay attention to what the Armenian opposition was dissatisfied with!
          The Armenian opposition opposed the signing of the protocols as proposed, expressing dissatisfaction, in particular clauses on mutual recognition of borders and territorial integrity of other states-that is, the territorial claims of Armenia to Turkey are evident and not only, but not vice versa !!
  • mojohed
    mojohed April 11 2013 14: 18
    +2
    There are a lot of comments, but they all come down to one thing: They don’t understand, they don’t learn anything. And what really can be opposed to them. If Syria falls, they will undermine the situation in the southern region. and if the crowds of militants employed in Syria are freed, then they will rush north to the borders of Georgia and the south of Russia, they will not cost anything with the money of Qatar and Oman, with the support of the West and the USA.
  • xetai9977
    xetai9977 April 11 2013 14: 29
    -1
    Quote: Atlon
    Quote: xetai9977
    NORMAL ARMENIAN TALES. Megalomania

    Well, judging by your flag, I did not expect another. I am not Armenian, I am Russian, but I cannot agree with you. Learn the story.

    I know history well. But the history is normal, and not "read" through the Armenian prism. I remember the Armenian maps of the 80s, where SYRIA, GEORGIA, AZERBAIJAN, TURKEY, IRAN, NORTH CAUCASUS WERE DESIGNATED AS "ARMENIA". yours is ok, then i don't know what is abnormal
  • pinecone
    pinecone April 11 2013 15: 01
    +3
    Quote: Marek Rozny

    In general, Turks look at Armenia as Russians from Russia to Finland - former property that does not bring much harm, but sometimes barks;

    How can the Turks look at Armenia as their former property, if before 1828 Erivan Khanate was part of Persia.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 15: 42
      +1
      And Persia, who was controlled by whom? Let me remind you, starting from the 10th century - Ghaznavids (Turks) of the 10-13th century, Genghisides Hulaguids (Turks, well, or monastic Mongols as you like) - 13-14 centuries, Timurids (Türks) - 14-16 centuries, Safavids (Türks) - 16-18 centuries, Afsharids (Türks) - 18 centuries, then the Kurdish Zendi dynasty - reigned 40 years, and again the Turkic Kajars dynasty until 1925. And only then did the Pahlavids (Iranians) come to power.

      ps The bulk of the Armenians were subjects of the Ottoman Empire.
  • Ivan.
    Ivan. April 11 2013 16: 41
    +4
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Duc, it was not the Turks who climbed into Russia, but quite the opposite. Russia climbed into the Turkish zone of influence - the Crimean Khanate, Bessarabia, the Balkans.


    It is a pity that you were not in the zone of Turkish influence in those years. Neither the Russians nor the Turks have changed in the last couple of hundred years. Scrape the suit of a Turk and from it climb low instincts (greed, deceit, gluttony, cruelty bordering on pleasure, etc.) and there is no need to give examples to the contrary - there are numerous exceptions in any country, nation. And about modern Turkey, there are many, many things that can be brought about in the organ trade in people from the CIS, the sale of women and girls, nuclear missiles (the Caribbean crisis), Syria, etc.
    Do you see Russians "climb" and Russia itself is a zone of someone's "interests." One compatriot, who climbed in the USA, once said that everything is bad in Russia because they are like that and the USA has nothing to do with it.
    Turkey, like Poland and some other countries, is characterized by an ongoing hostility to Russianness.
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny April 11 2013 17: 22
      +1
      Apparently, you really scratch that all of it falls on you from them.
      Z.Y. I talked to hundreds of Turks, and their mentality is better than you. And I know how they relate to Russians even better than you, because they don’t need to hide something on this issue, since I am non-Russian and Kazakh.

      ZY Do not pay attention to the checkbox, it is "Beeline" that puts such an aypishnik. I am in Kazakhstan.

      Z.Z.Y. In which Russian region and in what year did the Turks climb? I say again, Turks and Crimeans were on Russian soil for the last time in the 16th century under Ivan the Terrible. It was the Russians who got into a fight with Crimeans and Ottomans, and not vice versa. I studied in a Soviet school, I was generally taught that Finland attacked the USSR. You would have cooled down a bit and re-read carefully the history of the relationship of the Crimea / Ottoman Empire with the Russian Empire. I assure you, the Crimeans did not want to conquer the entire Romanov’s Russian state. This Romanov needed to have access to the Black Sea and own the Caucasus.
      1. Ivan.
        Ivan. April 11 2013 19: 47
        0
        I don’t know the history very well and I don’t feel like rummaging through it finding numerous points confirming my soap (all the more so since there are heaps of controversial moments all without sin), but in order to fight it is not necessary to invade someone else’s territory, Turkey has never been an ally of Russia and was easily influenced by its enemies, Turkey never tolerated the captured peoples and territories and therefore all sorts of Moldova, Bulgaria, Greece thanked their liberators and further in the same spirit.
        And the flag is somehow really plain.
        There is a complete mess with history, and now you can never be sure that what you know is true.
        By the way, I, like many, think that Russian is not quite a nationality. If you consider Russian a native (you can from 2 or more), then already Russian + other nationalities.
        Recently I was struck by a book, I thought that nothing fundamentally new about the conflict in Transnistria was not to be learned. And I still don’t understand where Snegur (the former president of Moldova) found tens of thousands of "volunteers" to kill the residents of Transnistria. Http://kosarev.press.md/Bershin.htm
        If the Russians climbed up without any reason or requests, then where and when - if it does not complicate, thanks in advance.
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 17: 59
      +1
      Quote: Ivan.
      Scrape off the costume of a Turk and base instincts (greed, deceit, gluttony, cruelty bordering on pleasure, etc.) will climb out of it and there is no need to give examples to the contrary - there are numerous exceptions in any country, nation

      You are deeply mistaken!
      He often visited Turkey and hundreds live here !!
      Basically I know them as decent people, most Russians have an even and good attitude!
      1. Ivan.
        Ivan. April 11 2013 18: 55
        +4
        “Basically I know them as decent people, the majority of Russians have an even and good attitude!” I had no doubts about that, but if they are placed in conditions of lawlessness and permissiveness and impunity, I think a layer of culture will be scraped off. The past has eaten into the blood. Cruelty, the right of the strong and self-indulgence - this is how I see the 17-18 centuries of the Ottoman Empire. It seems to me that the trade of the Slavs and in particular the Russians is a sufficient reason for the war. something like that in short. Regards, Ivan
        1. Murat 09
          Murat 09 April 11 2013 20: 14
          +4
          Well, why bother about the past 300 years ago, I can also quote Sheremetov when taking the Marienburg guys, wine and women in the fortress, I’ll give three days to walk in it if I take it. And this is the most humane thing that the Russian troops did in wars, And the extermination by Suvorov cleaned the Kalmyk villages, and a million dead Adygs, etc. You can remember for a very long time. Isn't it better to think about the present and the future. Sincerely. Murat.
          1. Ivan.
            Ivan. April 11 2013 22: 29
            +1
            why ted the past
            Did not want. But it was written provocatively - the Russians climbed into the Turkish occupation zone and had the right to do anything with the captured peoples and, in general, the Russians waged wars on purely selfish interests (access to the sea, territory), so it’s buried in meaning.
            Is it possible to ask for a link to the extermination by Suvorov to clean the Kalmyk villages. I did not hear anything about this, Yandex search did not give a result, but I heard about Suvorov that he cared about ordinary soldiers. Regards, Ivan.
            1. Murat 09
              Murat 09 April 12 2013 06: 14
              0
              It was during the suppression of the Pugachevsky uprising, when Suvorov cleared this land from the rebellious peasants, I can’t give a link, since I read about it for a very long time in books, just look for articles about the methods of the tsarist troops in the suppression of the Pugachevsky uprising, as the Kalmyk demolished , Bashkir, Cossack villages. Sincerely. Murat.
              1. Ivan.
                Ivan. April 12 2013 17: 18
                0
                I did not find confirmation of this, I studied 4 sources. The most reliable one seems to me to be this-http: //merkulov.tripod.com/TEXTS/S060325.HTM
                although there are probably inaccuracies in it and all sources contradict each other in details, nevertheless, after reading everyone, one can conclude about Suvorov: "He acted decisively, but with respect for humanity towards civilians" and in general he was not bypassed by hoaxes. It is better not to give such examples. And there is no need to accuse the Russians of selectively oppressing the peoples within the Russian Empire, everyone and the Russians got it just as much. And the "elite", which mostly preferred English and French to Russian, paid for it. Dostoevsky wrote well about her in the "Diary of a Writer" Respectfully Ivan.
    3. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 18: 24
      +1
      Quote: Ivan.
      Turkey, like Poland and some other countries, is characterized by an ongoing hostility to Russianness.


      1. Ivan.
        Ivan. April 11 2013 20: 11
        +2
        Turkey is not a monolith, and therefore even a thousand examples are not an indicator of that, civil wars testify.
        Turkey's oppression of the Balkan countries will not just disappear. If Turkey had more luck with the "elite", everything would have been different. I heard for a long time, but only recently found out where and how the bashi-bazouks come from - I can't imagine this in Slavic countries, although they are not without flaws.
  • Black
    Black April 11 2013 18: 34
    +3
    Quote: Yarbay
    You are deeply mistaken!

    Dear Alibek, these are not mistakes, this is the desire to blame the causes of internal problems on ...., ooh, well, in extreme cases, on the Turks.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 11 2013 22: 24
      +2
      Quote: Chen
      Dear Alibek, these are not mistakes, this is the desire to blame the causes of internal problems on ...., ooh, well, in extreme cases, on the Turks.

      You are probably right !!
  • AntonR7
    AntonR7 April 11 2013 19: 53
    +2
    Well, if Armenia is ready to forget the genocide of its people, God is her judge.
    1. Gari
      Gari April 11 2013 23: 59
      +1
      Quote: AntonR7
      Well, if Armenia is ready to forget the genocide of its people, God is her judge.

      Dear, never a single Armenian will forget
      1. ayyildiz
        ayyildiz April 12 2013 02: 30
        +1
        Like the Turks will not forget about 527.000 people. whom you killed!

        As well as about 42 diplomats whom you killed with terrorism!

        As well as about the genocide in Khojaly!
  • shurup
    shurup April 11 2013 20: 40
    +4
    I suggest commentators not to spend this season's vacation in Turkey. In the usual places of rest, the enemies of Russia dug in. Egypt, Ukraine, Bulgaria, the Baltic states, Cyprus, and now Turkey are trying to lose their income from the tourism industry. It’s time to learn new, old beaches in Cuba and thereby help her financially.
    I hope that the appearance of a large number of patriots on the island of Freedom will not lead to a repeat of the Caribbean crisis.
    Against the backdrop of mass charters, the only Armenian flight will look pale for the convenience of transporting emissaries from Turkey. In addition, Armenians will probably also want to trade on Cuban beaches and Santiago markets.
  • ademarq155
    ademarq155 April 11 2013 21: 46
    0
    Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin .., the Gulag killed 30 million people, 15-20 million people died of starvation in Ukraine, but I see that you do not abandon nationalism, but nationalism - people think that contradicts itself.
    Nationalism should be regarded as a psychological disease.
    Learn how to be a man, an animal is easy to become ...
    Animals are better than humans.
    Nationalism = backwardness
  • ademarq155
    ademarq155 April 11 2013 21: 46
    +2
    The Psychology of Nationalism

    http://www.syntone.ru/library/books/content/5213.html?current_book_page=all
  • vlad.1924
    vlad.1924 April 14 2013 13: 12
    +1
    In our world, it seems, a big game is going on for the fragmentation and localization of the Soviet Union and now Russia ... And in this "game" Russia can no longer play, because the stake is the existence of the Russian state and in general the question of the existence of all nations and nationalities who lived within the Soviet Union, and now within Russia ... The reason, it seems, is that, like the Fuhrer of Great Germany, on the way to world domination on the planet, the land of some very rich families is and is able to prevent this from only one country with its people capable of great deeds it was the Soviet Union and now Russia. Even the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Western "inoculation" of capitalism in Russia did not help in solving this problem (achieving world domination) and, now, apparently, there is a question about the most radical measures in relation to Russia, most likely a war to destroy all peoples inhabiting today's Russia, as infected with a "virus" capable of resisting "Western values", and very dubious ... Take, for example, equality in rights with normal people of all kinds of perverts who lead to the degradation of humanity ...