Military Review

AKS74U - to whom "Ksyusha", and to whom ... TKB-0116 main competitor (part-2)

10
In the previous article, we began to consider the basic models of small-sized automata that competed with AKS74U at the Modern competition. Three models were considered. weaponswhich could really contend with the shortened version of the Kalashnikov, but this is far from all the weapons of the modernist competition. Even if one runs “at a gallop across Europe” and does not dismantle all the weapons of this competition, then at least one more model of a small-sized machine gun, namely, the weapon proposed by Igor Yakovlevich Stechkin, should be considered.


Igor Yakovlevich Stechkin's submachine gun - the small-sized TKB-0116 submachine gun

This compact machine is not much different from many others in its appearance, but this weapon has its own peculiarity, which is enclosed in stories creation, and most importantly in the design of the machine. Igor Yakovlevich, when designing his small-sized machine gun, in order for him to satisfy the requirements set before the designers, he went by a somewhat different method than his colleagues. The designer understood that it was much easier to upgrade than to do it “from scratch”, because at first a version of the weapon was created that significantly exceeded the specified limits in terms of dimensions and weight. Then this weapon was brought to failure-free operation, and only after that the process of reducing the size and weight was started. It should be immediately noted that the path chosen by the gunsmith was somewhat erroneous, since too often it is precisely the reduction of the details of the weapon that seriously affect its reliability and performance. Nevertheless, the designer managed to closely approach the specified parameters.

The length of the machine TKB-0116 is 458 millimeters with a folded butt (8 millimeters more than the required), with the butt spread out, the length is equal to 743 millimeters (7 millimeters less than the required limit). The weight of the weapon was 2,31 kilogram, which is 0,11 kilogram more than the weight specified by the conditions of the competition. The weapons were fed from detachable box magazines with a capacity of 20 and 30 cartridges, while the machine’s rate of fire was 850 shots per minute, which can be considered a negative quality, since the rate of fire differs from the usual 600 shots per minute, which means you had to get used to the weapon.

AKS74U - to whom "Ksyusha", and to whom ... TKB-0116 main competitor (part-2)Weapon automatics are built according to a completely unusual pattern for machine guns, namely the use of recoil energy in the short course of the barrel. Naturally, despite the designation of the same name, this scheme of automation differs from automatic pistols, where such a system is used quite widely. Automatic weapons worked as follows. When fired, the powder gases pressed on the bottom of the sleeve, trying to push it out of the chamber, but since the sleeve itself was reliably supported by the bolt, the bullet did not leave the barrel. However, the momentum that the bullet received from the powder gases was sufficient to move the bolt coupled to the barrel. Moving back, the barrel of the weapon turned around its axis, thus leaving the clutch with the bolt, freeing from it, the barrel stopped, but he did it not only when hitting the receiver, but when it passed through the levers to the remaining speed. The shutter, which received additional acceleration, removed the cartridge case, threw it through the window to eject the cartridge cases from above the weapon, and under the action of the return spring moved in the opposite direction. When moving forward, the bolt picked up a new cartridge from the magazine, inserted it into the chamber and rested against the barrel of the weapon, forcing it to move forward, which caused the barrel to turn, and therefore its engagement with the bolt. With the next shot, everything was repeated anew.

The appearance of the machine is quite ordinary and does not give out its design, except that the window for ejection of spent cartridges looks very interesting. On the right side of the weapon located switch fuse and modes of operation of the machine, as well as the shutter handle. The forearm of the weapon is wooden, not plastic. Sights open, consist of a pillar and front sight. Butt, folding up, not interfering with the retention or aiming in the folded position. In general, everything is quite ordinary.

On tests, this machine showed a much better grouping of fire than the future Ksyusha, a reduced sound of the shot was noted separately, thanks to a rather tricky muzzle device that was both a flame arrester and a DTC and an accelerator for the barrel and a little bit PBS as it turned out. Despite this, the weapon could not boast of a long survivability of mechanisms, which was the official reason for the loss. Apparently, Igor Yakovlevich tritely did not have enough time to finalize his sample to the ideal, well, after the competition no one was interested in these weapons, and therefore it was pointless to work with him.

I think it is clear why it was this sample that I decided to single out in a separate article, rather than crumpling everything together. In addition to the 4 weapons models described, other automata took part in the competition, but we will not be distracted by the Modern competition, we will manage only the main competitors of Kalashnikov, all the same articles about Ksyusha and proceed directly to meeting the winner of the competition. And this weapon is far from the most idle time and I’m sure it will be interesting to read something about it, starting from what monsters the machine turned into by means of a small factory tuning and ending with the fact that this model participated in the competition as PP-1. But this is all in the following articles.
Author:
Photos used:
weaponland.ru
Articles from this series:
AKS74U - to whom "Ksyusha", and to whom ... Competition "Modern" (part-1)
AKS74U - to whom "Ksyusha", and to whom ... TKB-0116 main competitor (part-2)
AKS74U - to whom "Ksyusha", and to whom ... (part-3)
AKS74U - to whom "Ksyusha", and to whom ... Further development (part-4)
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  1. Massik
    Massik April 10 2013 08: 49 New
    +5
    well, after the contest no one was interested in these weapons, and accordingly, working with it was pointless.
    It will pop up again, only it will be called FN 2500 or something else.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak April 10 2013 09: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: Marssik
      AKS74U - to whom is Ksyusha, and to whom


      Our name was bitch
      1. Massik
        Massik April 10 2013 09: 51 New
        +3
        Strange you quote, in our department they didn’t give any names, try to take a person with a 50m oar from the VAZ 2106 saloon at the sight, I think it’s a well-deserved machine.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak April 10 2013 10: 30 New
          +6
          Quote: Marssik
          Strange you quote


          Understand that I have no complaints about him, a normal machine, like any Kalash, I just called him that and suspect it before me, I personally (without any complaints about the rest of the weapons) only recognize AKM because it is for me like that carrot sweeter than that I did not eat.
          1. Peacemaker
            Peacemaker April 10 2013 13: 31 New
            +5
            Each gives nicknames to the extent of their depravity, we called AKSU Plevku, which characterizes its qualities in intensive shooting, this does not mean that the machine is bad, it just has its own niche.
            1. Ch0sen1
              Ch0sen1 April 10 2013 16: 41 New
              +2
              Practically any short-barreled automatic machine will spit when intensive, here it is necessary to do forced cooling of the trunk like Pecheneg or Spectrum M4, and in its niche the AKSU is not bad, the same GAI officers, drivers, etc. just right smile
              1. the47th
                the47th April 11 2013 14: 22 New
                0
                Quote: Ch0sen1
                GAI officers

                It seems to me that the "ordinary law enforcement officers" are generally strictly forbidden to use automatic weapons, especially as powerful as AK. Self-loading carbines (also suitable for a powerful pistol cartridge) - the maximum that they can be given. Over in the US, the police calmly use the Mini-14 and AR-15, and nothing.
                1. iliq
                  iliq April 11 2013 15: 56 New
                  0
                  oh well, where in the US do police "calmly use" carbines?
                  1. the47th
                    the47th April 11 2013 18: 53 New
                    0
                    "Some police departments allow qualified officers to carry shotguns and / or semiautomatic rifles in their vehicles for additional firepower, typically to be used if a suspect is involved in an active shooter situation, or a Hostage / barricade incident."
                    This is from Wikipedia. Pay attention to "semiautomatic rifles".
  2. avt
    avt April 10 2013 09: 37 New
    +5
    ,, Despite this, the weapon could not boast of a long survivability of the mechanisms, which became the official reason for the loss. Apparently, Igor Yakovlevich simply did not have enough time to finalize his sample to the ideal, "------ I probably already knew that the fate of the competition was decided, so there was no point in bringing it up. But this is so, thoughts about the past. +
  3. Canep
    Canep April 10 2013 09: 43 New
    +7
    I think the MO during the competition should identify not one winner, but take less than 2 weapons for military tests. And at the end of the test, give the opportunity to finish the samples, and so on several times. And then Kalashnikov has no competitors by definition, and with this approach he will not appear.
  4. Gari
    Gari April 10 2013 11: 23 New
    +5
    And I liked the Stechkin assault rifle and the automatic rate of fire of the assault rifle was 850 rounds per minute, both technically and appearance
  5. MASTER
    MASTER (MPS) April 10 2013 13: 14 New
    +2
    In the third picture, it reminds me of MP5.
  6. Peacemaker
    Peacemaker April 10 2013 13: 29 New
    0
    Each gives nicknames to the extent of their depravity, we called AKSU Plevku, which characterizes its qualities in intensive shooting, this does not mean that the machine is bad, it just has its own niche.
  7. sniper
    sniper April 10 2013 15: 28 New
    +1
    Good day to all !!! Cyril, as always RESPECT in the form of a plus, thank you !!! The truth seems to have crept in an error or an error ... In the first article we see:
    The weight of the machine should not exceed 2,2 kilograms,

    But from the second article:
    The weight of the weapon was 2,31 kilograms, which is 1,1 kilograms more than the weight specified by the terms of the competition.

    I understand that the comma escaped out of place .... wassat
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 15: 47 New
      +2
      Good afternoon) Yeah, it was sealed up, now we'll fix it, thank you smile Finally, I got close to "Ksyusha", and then the articles about AKS74U, and almost no mention of him is in the materials)))
  8. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 16: 09 New
    0
    the window for ejecting spent cartridges looks very interesting.

    Well, why so modest? "without world analogues" - that would be true!
    Well, who else thought of throwing shells up? nonsense that there is a sight, face muzzle and collar laughing

    Apparently, Igor Yakovlevich simply did not have enough time to finalize his sample to the ideal, but after the competition no one was interested in these weapons, and accordingly it was pointless to work with it.

    or did the “shooter" not like hot faces and powder gases flying in the face?
    and of course - it was pointless to work with him - because of the "unparalleled world analogues" design with the release of a sleeve ...
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 16: 20 New
      +5
      Actually, and from what you have taken that the liner will fly strictly up, and not to the side? If you pay attention, you will notice that the window for ejection of spent cartridges has a lid that opens and closes when the shutter moves (the shutter and bolt carrier are rigidly connected, so you can simply call the shutter) when he pulls the spent cartridge from the chamber. The same cover directs the movement of the sleeve to the right side. I do not understand any claims for powder gases either. Look at exactly where the window for the spent cartridges is located, and it is located above the store, at a sufficient distance from the shooter’s face.
      And the world analogues are more than enough and earlier and later, so your sarcasm is not appropriate here.
  9. kirpich
    kirpich April 10 2013 16: 13 New
    +2
    "Ksenia" is a wonderful machine for urban battles, cleaning houses, weapons for NAZ (pilots). Indeed, if he had a normal cartridge, he would not have a price.
  10. bazilio
    bazilio April 10 2013 16: 21 New
    +1
    Thanks to the author.
    What can I say from the sample, the first thing that came to mind is the ejection of shells up, as it seems to me not a very good solution. Judging by the photo for this machine has its own version of the store. if the horn from ak does not fit him, then this is clearly a minus.
    it’s hard to say something about automation — what is the reliability and survivability of such a design?
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 16: 28 New
      +3
      Thanks for rating. Regarding the cartridge case above, he wrote it off, sent the window cover to eject the cartridge case to the right, shops seemed to be coming from AK, photo shops with a capacity of 20 cartridges.
      It is really a problem with survivability, but I think that it is completely solvable, reliability in adverse conditions, this is the main question. Since the barrel was turning while moving backwards, it means that there were some guides in the receiver that should have been strong enough to withstand 5,45x39, that’s what would happen to them if it hit the sand and other joys is a big question. It seems to me that if the machine gun caught the wedge, then with a couple of blows on it it would be clearly not enough and I would have to disassemble the weapon right up to the removal of the barrel. Feel this pattern with pens ... repeat
  11. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 16: 22 New
    0
    Quote: kirpich
    "Ksenia" a wonderful machine
    .
    if he had a normal cartridge

    it's five!
    with a normal cartridge "suddenly" would be MP5 ...
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 16: 35 New
      +1
      The task after all was to create not a PP, but a small-sized machine gun. PP has shorter application distances; in a small-sized machine, they wanted to preserve both the effective range of a full-fledged weapon and compact dimensions. I think it would be more appropriate if the cartridge 9x39 with a heavy subsonic bullet, without an armor-piercing core. Here and ricochets would not be almost and the effective range would be acceptable, though the trajectory would be such that oh-her. Although back on moving targets to shoot subsonic cartridges at a distance already 300 meters would be difficult, would need a lot of experience. In general, the ideal is very difficult to find.
  12. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 16: 32 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    Actually, why did you get that the sleeve will fly strictly up, and not to the side?

    it’s like ordinary physics.
    for unbelievers - there are a lot of videos on the net where the pistol shells fly.

    Quote: scrabler
    If you pay attention, you will notice that the window for ejecting spent cartridges has a cover that opens and closes when the shutter moves (the shutter and the shutter frame are rigidly connected, so you can just call the shutter) when he pulls out the spent cartridge case from the chamber. The same cover directs the movement of the sleeve to the right side.

    the cover there is the same as on the M4 / M16 - for protection against dirt. when you try to "direct the sleeve" the sleeve will remain in the bolt with the corresponding consequences.

    Quote: scrabler
    I also do not understand the claims on powder gases. Look where exactly the window for spent cartridges is located, and it is located above the store, at a sufficient distance from the shooter's face.

    it just seems. Or for you 30 see "sufficient distance?

    Quote: scrabler
    And the world analogues are more than enough and earlier and later, so your sarcasm is not appropriate here.

    for example?
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 16: 58 New
      0
      Quote: iliq
      it's like ordinary physics.

      Ordinary physics, at the initial stage, the sleeve does not in itself jump out of the weapon, it should probably push something to this rash act, should it not?
      Quote: iliq
      when trying to "direct the liner" ...

      You imagine the rigidity of the cover stroke, which could leave a cartridge case in a weapon, the cartridge case is not ejected itself, it is pulled out of the chamber, clutching the groove. Attempting closure will lead to the failure of the sleeve in the groove, but not in this case. A simple example, you throw a ball at an angle at a wall, because the ball does not return to you.
      Quote: iliq
      it just seems. Or for you 30 see "sufficient distance?

      But what about Tavor and other bull-dads who are in service? Even with them, the people are somehow controlled, and there is an even smaller distance, here the distance to the shooter’s face is approximately the same as in full-fledged automata, the classical layout is the same.
      Quote: iliq
      for example?

      Yes, even the SCS smile
  13. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 16: 50 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    The task, after all, was to create not a PP, but a small-sized machine.

    saw off the barrel of the AK-74 and put a folding butt - that's the "small-sized machine" for the peasant-working army.

    Quote: scrabler
    The PP has shorter application distances; in a small-sized machine, they wanted to keep both the effective range of full-fledged weapons and compact dimensions.

    and what, pilots, tankers, doctors, techies need to lead a combined arms battle?
    Well, as if by itself - shorter than the barrel => lower accuracy. by definition, there can be no talk of any aimed fire at 300 meters.

    Quote: scrabler
    It seems to me that a 9x39 cartridge with a heavy subsonic bullet, without an armor-piercing core, would be more appropriate.

    what for? if you need a short machine with the same cartridge as everyone else has around, then there are no options other than reworking the AK.

    Quote: scrabler
    There would be almost no ricochets and the effective range would be acceptable, though the trajectory would be such that oh-oh. Although it would be difficult to shoot subsonic cartridges at a distance of 300 meters back at moving targets, great experience would be needed.

    you describe the classic PP, for police / police use - i.e. MP5

    Quote: scrabler
    In general, the ideal is very difficult to find.

    or should we not interfere with everything in a heap?
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 17: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: iliq
      saw off the barrel of the AK-74 and put a folding butt - that's the "small-sized machine" for the peasant-working army.

      Well, it wasn't quite like that, but in general, yes smile
      Quote: iliq
      and what, pilots, tankers, doctors, techies need to lead a combined arms battle?

      Well, the stock has never been superfluous wink
      Quote: iliq
      what for? if you need a short machine with the same cartridge as everyone else has around, then there are no options other than reworking the AK.

      What do you mean why? High stopping power, no ricochets when working in buildings, etc., while the effective range is 100-150 meters above your favorite MP-5 wink
      Quote: iliq
      or should we not interfere with everything in a heap?

      Here I agree, the requirements of the competition were slightly silly, it was necessary to make an automatic machine in the dimensions of the PP, and even so that in all respects it would not be inferior to the full-size one.
  14. marshes
    marshes April 10 2013 17: 09 New
    +1
    Who needs a small-sized assault rifle for “machine operators”, crews of transport helicopters, drivers, artillerymen. Why they chose AKSU as a full-time, it’s clear that there is at least some unification with AK-74 and RPK-74. In Pogran. he is also present in the army as a regular weapon of commanders or their deputies at the outposts. And caliber 5.45 is widespread, there is no need to search for special ammunition.
    It’s true that the steam should be removed from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, they need a caliber with good stopping power and surgeons would not complain. Or immediately or quickly heal. They say 5.45 is a rather "scary" bullet, like there was an article about wound channels.
  15. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 17: 13 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    A simple example, you throw the ball against the wall at an angle, because the ball does not come back to you.

    the example is incorrect. correct - you throw the ball out of the window, the window sash should hit the ball at a certain angle and in a certain direction. while the ball has a mass approximately like a sash and a speed of tens of meters per second.
    Well, do not forget that the ball is not one, but 20-30 with a beat of 850 times per minute;)

    Quote: scrabler
    Tavor

    I will surprise you terribly, Tavor will push the gases to the side, and not in the face of the shooter;)
    http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01VF2KT7bO9xw/610x.jpg

    Quote: scrabler
    Even with them the people somehow manage, and there’s even less distance, here the distance to the shooter's face is about the same as in full-fledged machines, the classic layout is the same.

    I don’t even know how else to explain ... the difference in the direction of the gas emission in / in the face of the shooter and to the side. what

    Quote: scrabler
    Yes, even the SCS

    and all? I was hoping for a dozen or two "world analogues", assault rifles and machine guns ...
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 17: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: iliq
      incorrect example

      Ok, another example. Before you is a gate with a spring, you have a ball in your hands, can you throw the ball so that it opens the gate and flies into the yard? I think the task is the most difficult and more than confident that if not from the first attempt, then from the second you will succeed. And if you try and pick up a reasonable throw force, the ball will not fly in a straight line, opening the gate completely, but away from it inside the yard. And you can simply put a brick or a stone on the other side, which will not allow the gate to fully open and then, if you wish, you will not be able to throw the ball so that it opens the gate and flies in a straight line. Well, I don’t know how to explain it even easier.
      You can tie the window cover for ejection of spent cartridges to the shutter of the weapon, so that when you roll back the cover opens by 45 degrees and no more and reflects the cartridge case to the side.
      Quote: iliq
      I will surprise you terribly

      not surprised, this is only an example when the window for ejection of spent cartridges is located close to the shooter's face.
      Quote: iliq
      I don't even know how else to explain ...

      Yes, no need to explain, the location of the window for ejection of spent cartridges next to the shooter’s face is in any case bad, even though the age of black powder has passed. In this case, the release of powder gases occurs at a sufficient distance from the shooter’s face. Yes, worse than not to the side, but better than under the cheek. Look at your own picture and add side wind.
      Quote: iliq
      and everything?

      Why don't you know how to use Google? smile Look at how many PPs were created before World War II and during the upward-to-right ejection of the liner, off-set PPD-34, MP-40 and so on. Yes, among the machines did not spread, but in other classes of weapons used in a wide way.
  16. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 17: 20 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    Well, the stock has never been superfluous

    the problem is that a shot down flyer is like a dead poultry machine. as well as everyone else who falls under the distribution of the motorized rifle squad.

    Quote: scrabler
    High stopping effect, no ricochets when working in buildings and so on, with an effective range of 100-150 meters above your beloved MP-5

    this type of flyers with tankers will be cleaning buildings!! in buildings at + 100-150 meters will "work" !?
    stunned!
    the use of an assault rifle and software with automatic cartridges for police tasks is nonsense! especially unprepared people.
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 17: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: iliq
      the problem is that the shot down machine gun as a dead poultice

      And besides pilots and tankers, of course, no one needs small-sized weapons ... Artillery costs itself, with the expectation, and here guests are from the nearest fishing line at 300 distance of meters. Successfully "lay down" (put?) At this distance all living things, armed with PP, which are useless at such distances. I don’t want to carry a full-size machine for one single case out of a million, and such a case is really on the verge of science fiction, but if something like this happens, I think that everyone understands that it is better to have a small-sized machine or PP at hand.
      Quote: iliq
      in buildings on + 100-150 meters will "work"!?

      Good. Fighting in the city, you need to shoot on the street where it is not always 100-150 meters and in the buildings you can’t drink coffee either. Having two samples for the street and for buildings is not an option for obvious reasons, this is where the main problems of full-sized weapons begin - a narrow corridor, ricochets, the likelihood of hitting your opponent. Accordingly, we need another cartridge. In addition, yesterday they fought in the city, and tomorrow in the field clean. Of course, ideally, for each task you could choose the appropriate weapon, but in order to save, a small-sized machine is made, which has its drawbacks and advantages, inferior to samples specifically sharpened for a specific task, but this is the price of universality. In order to raise the bar of efficiency with this universality, it is necessary not only a “universal” weapon, but also a “universal ammunition”, which will never appear in nature, but you can try to get as close as possible to this. Yes, it is expensive, but it is not always practical, and such a cartridge will, in addition to the advantages, give its negative qualities, but if you prioritize correctly, you can get some kind of result.
      Thus, it seems to me that if they demand that the machine take an intermediate place between a full-size automatic machine and software, both in terms of its dimensions and the tasks performed, then, based on domestic developments, it should be created under the cartridge 939, but not SP-5 or SP-6, and ammunition with a bullet without an armor-piercing core, roughly speaking just lead, wrapped in a shell, well, the form, balancing, weight, and so on, let the designers play for the result to be normal.
      Quote: iliq
      The use of an automaton and PP with automaton cartridges for militia tasks is nonsense!

      I agree you need to urgently remove the AKS74U, especially from the faculty and give a normal PP, not their tasks.
      1. marshes
        marshes April 10 2013 18: 13 New
        +1
        Quote: scrabler
        I agree you need to urgently remove the AKS74U, especially from the faculty and give a normal PP, not their tasks.

        Here is a good example. Bison PP-19 submachine gun (Russia)
        Characteristics

        Caliber: 9x18 mm PM / PMM; 7.62x25mm; 9x19mm Parabellum
        Weight: 2,1 kg without magazine
        Length: 425/660 mm
        Firing Rate: 600-700 shots per minute
        Stores: 64 rounds
        Effective range: 100-200 meters
        You can also PP-2000, Saiga-20 (12) (wanted) as well as AKMS or AK-104.
        I almost forgot thanks for the article. smileBy the way, some weapons are used in Kazakhstan, in addition to foreign gadgets. smile
        1. KuigoroZHIK
          KuigoroZHIK April 11 2013 02: 59 New
          0
          The bison has already been modernized, now a new one is being released. Only with the store is no longer "snack" (as in the photo), but a classic horn.
  17. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 00 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    Ok, another example. Before you is a gate with a spring, you have a ball in your hands, can you throw the ball so that it opens the gate and flies into the yard?

    after the second or third ball wicket flies away. something like this.

    Quote: scrabler
    And if you try and pick up a reasonable throwing power, then the ball will fly not in a straight line, opening the gate completely, but to the side of it inside the yard.

    for this you at least need a special gate;) which is unacceptable in this case.

    in the photo we see the usual cover for protection from dirt, like on American rifles.

    by the way, but the fact that the window is made strictly in the center, and not at the end (say, like on Glock, doesn’t it tell you anything?

    Quote: scrabler
    You can tie the window cover for ejection of spent cartridges to the shutter of the weapon, so that when you roll back the cover opens by 45 degrees and no more and reflects the cartridge case to the side.

    well, there are even more effective ways to complicate the design, without any improvement.

    Quote: scrabler
    not surprised, this is only an example when the window for ejection of spent cartridges is located close to the shooter's face.

    you are looking in which direction it is located;)

    Quote: scrabler
    See how many PPs were created before World War II and during with the ejection of the sleeve up and to the right, offhand PPD-34, MP-40 and so on.

    yet yes - I was right with "no world analogs";)
    By the way, pay attention, even before the war, many successfully coped with the ejection of the sleeve to the side, and without any gates;)
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 18: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: iliq
      after the second or third ball wicket flies away. something like this.

      So, set aside the wicket! laughing Throw the ball in a straight line at the gate opening. Part of the energy of the ball is spent on what would open the gate, part of the formation of the ball and the gate. The gate opens slightly, the ball begins to take on its normal shape and pushes away from the already open gate, so it flies no longer back, not through the gate, but to the side. This is without taking into account the fact that the ball may even slide over the surface of the gate.
      Quote: iliq
      by the way, but the fact that the window is made strictly in the center, and not at the end (say, like on Glock, doesn’t it tell you anything?

      Why, says smile Firstly, there is a window for ejection of spent cartridges with an offset to the right, small, but it is there, which is back to the proof that the weapon throws out the spent cartridges in that direction. Secondly, the bore is locked when it is rotated, and the protrusions on the outside of the chamber enter into engagement with notches in the bolt, or rather, in the bolt carrier, which is connected to the bolt itself and does not move relative to it. Thus, you need to make a slot for a cartridge that is removed from the store, as well as a slot so that you can throw it away after the shot. To increase the structural strength and secure locking, the best option is to position these slots opposite each other. Unusual locking led to the location of the window for ejection of spent cartridges on top. Well, at least I think so, if the information about the barrel bore locking is correct, but there is no reason to doubt.
      Quote: iliq
      you are looking in which direction it is located;)

      I see, and if the wind blows in the opposite direction, then there will be aaaaa apchi!
      Quote: iliq
      yet yes - I was right with "no world analogs";)

      Well, let it be, but not I said it laughing
  18. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 15 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    It’s worth the artillery with the calculation, and then guests from the nearest fishing line at a distance of 300 meters. Successfully "lay" (lay?) At this distance all living things, armed with software that are useless at such distances.

    I’ll tell you a secret - and a full-fledged AKM and AK-74 at such a distance are useless without optics. just like any other assault rifle / assault rifle.

    Quote: scrabler
    Good. Fight in the city, it is necessary to shoot on the street where it is far from always 100-150 meters and in the buildings you also don’t drink coffee. Having two models for the street and for buildings is not an option for obvious reasons, it is here that the main problems of full-sized weapons begin - a narrow corridor, rebounds, the probability of hitting one's enemies.

    "not beggars" have in such cases a gun and soldiers undergo training courses for such battles lasting a couple of months. and it’s called a counter-guerrilla war.
    in a “normal” war, nobody needs it - the house is bombed / shot and goes on. remember Berlin, the Terrible.

    Quote: scrabler
    Accordingly, you need another cartridge. In addition, yesterday they fought in the city, and tomorrow in a clean field. Of course, it is ideal that for each task it would be possible to choose the appropriate weapon, but in order to save money, a small-sized machine is made, which has its own minuses and pluses, inferior to the models specifically sharpened for a specific task, but this is the price of versatility. In order to raise the bar of efficiency with this versatility, you need not only a “universal” weapon, but also a “universal ammunition,” which will never appear in nature, but you can try to get as close as possible to this. Yes, it’s expensive, but not always practical, and such a cartridge will give its negative qualities in addition to the advantages, but if you correctly prioritize, you can get some kind of result.
    Thus, it seems to me that if they demand that the machine take an intermediate place between a full-size automatic machine and software, both in terms of its dimensions and the tasks performed, then, based on domestic developments, it should be created under the cartridge 939, but not SP-5 or SP-6, and ammunition with a bullet without an armor-piercing core, roughly speaking just lead, wrapped in a shell, well, the form, balancing, weight, and so on, let the designers play for the result to be normal.

    get it out of your head! because it's nonsense.
    it’s better to train motorized rifles normally so that they are able to carry out their tasks. look at the Israelis - who else but they need a "short" for the infantry, and even a special patron? but in reality - a long Tabor (and regret for M16) and the usual 5,56! and for some reason no one even thinks to change them!

    Quote: scrabler
    I agree you need to urgently remove the AKS74U, especially from the faculty and give a normal PP, not their tasks.

    It remains a mystery to me - why are PPS machines !?
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 19: 00 New
      +2
      Quote: iliq
      I will reveal the secret - and a full-fledged AKM and AK-74 at this distance is useless without optics.

      yah? You hardly believe in my capabilities, but then believe the NATO troops, which were subjected to shelling on both 500 and 600 meters from AKM in the closest deliveries of democracy to other countries. I will even say more, at a distance in 400-500 meters you can not only conduct disturbing fire, but it is also quite good to hit the enemy you are aiming at and all this with open aiming devices and not a sniper in your hands.
      Here is a reference to you on "Instructions on a shooting case," you can learn a lot of interesting things, do not neglect. http://depositfiles.com/files/5617744
      Quote: iliq
      nobody needs it in a "normal" war - the house is bombed / shot and moves on

      and if the house is not only the enemy?
      Quote: iliq
      and for some reason, no one even thinks to change them!

      Can you imagine the amount you need to spend on creating a new model, a new ammunition and its distribution in the army?
      Quote: iliq
      It remains a mystery to me - why are PPS machines !?

      Here the only answer that I can at least somehow find with difficulty is the fact that the type of machine gun itself is a good stopping factor. But it is with such a nifov stretch for the ears ...
  19. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 19 New
    0
    Quote: marshes
    Here is a good example. Bison PP-19 submachine gun (Russia)

    what is "good" in it? that AK sawed under a pistol cartridge?
    where to hang optics and stray?
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 19: 04 New
      +1
      I can circle the red where and how to install the same collimator sight wink
  20. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 26 New
    0
    Quote: marshes
    Here is a good example. Bison PP-19 submachine gun (Russia)

    what is "good" in it? that AK sawed under a pistol cartridge?
    where to hang optics and stray?
    1. marshes
      marshes April 10 2013 18: 37 New
      +3
      Quote: iliq
      what is "good" in it? that AK sawed under a pistol cartridge?
      where to hang optics and stray?

      If they find where to hang, the optics are 200 meters? I myself can say that I can conduct effective fire from the AKS-74 at a distance of 400 meters without any optics. Even my soldiers who were called up from the countryside quite successfully fired from the SVD without optics at a distance of 400- 600 m, Hunters in the aul each cartridge is valuable, you need to travel far to buy. Of course city dwellers need optics, because vision is damaged from monitors and TV.
  21. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 44 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    So, set aside the wicket!

    well, you offer to cast iron with a ball on a gate! lol
    you yourself look at the photo "gate" and think for how many "balls" she stand?


    Quote: scrabler
    there is a window for ejecting spent cartridges with a shift to the right, a small one, but it is, which is back to prove that the weapon throws the spent cartridges in this direction.

    or simply do not fix the “gate” in another way, because there is no place there.
    I also don’t see anything that could stop the “gate” ...

    Quote: scrabler
    Unusual locking led to the location of the window for the ejection of spent cartridges from above.

    and again we see the heroic overcoming of the difficulties previously created. "walking in a circle with a rake!"

    Quote: scrabler
    I see, and if the wind blows in the opposite direction, then there will be aaaaa apchi!

    although this is not good, but much better than the "apchi" with each shot, and a closed target line;)

    Quote: scrabler
    Well, let it be, but not I said it

    and I was so hoping for examples of the ejection of the sleeve up (and did not dream of a "gate")!
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 19: 11 New
      0
      Quote: iliq
      you yourself look at the photo "gate" and think for how many "balls" she stand?

      but the sleeve is not at all "pig-iron" laughing endure, endure much
      Quote: iliq
      and again we see the heroic overcoming of the difficulties previously created. "walking in a circle with a rake!"

      And you never thought that thanks to “race walking in a circle” you go to work by car or public transport, and not by a horse-drawn carriage or infantry. What thanks to the "walking race" at home you will find a warm dinner for a couple of minutes and you do not need to kindle a fire to warm up food? It is such bold, not quite ordinary ideas that push progress forward. Or do you think that the wheel was invented and enough, you can stop at this?
  22. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 50 New
    0
    Quote: marshes
    Find where to hang

    yeah, they’ve already found it, for AK they’ve hung up so many optics, as much as mom, don’t worry!

    Quote: marshes
    200 meter optics?

    strange huh and why all the "specialists" hang optics !?

    Quote: marshes
    I myself can say that I can conduct effective fire from the AKS-74 at a distance of 400 meters without any optics.

    is it at the shooting range, on the illuminated growth targets? I can also conduct "effective fire" in their direction.
    and on the head target, but not in the dash?

    Quote: marshes
    Even my soldiers who were called up from the countryside quite successfully fired from the SVD without optics at a distance of 400-600 m,

    "pretty successful" is how? how many hits in the head target out of 10?

    Quote: marshes
    Of course, urban dwellers need optics, because vision is damaged from monitors and TVs.

    oh, poor they are poor, urban dwellers!
    and the policemen are generally bad - why would they need collimators, sights, lasers, lights - will come out "non-urban" and will show everyone!
    1. marshes
      marshes April 10 2013 19: 07 New
      0
      Quote: iliq
      is it at the shooting range, on the illuminated growth targets?

      No, on target No. 4, all the more so on the PUC, the targets were not located well, firing was usually carried out in the morning and the sun was shining in the eyes. A chest target. It was located on wooden shields at a distance of 400m.
      Quote: iliq
      "pretty successful" is how? how many hits in the head target out of 10?

      The target was the same, of the three rounds knocked out 24-28.
      Quote: iliq
      and the policemen are generally bad - why would they need collimators, sights, lasers, lights - will come out "non-urban" and will show everyone!

      We have few urban police officers, mostly people from rural areas, especially in the teaching staff. smile
  23. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 18: 51 New
    0
    Quote: marshes
    Find where to hang

    yeah, they’ve already found it, for AK they’ve hung up so many optics, as much as mom, don’t worry!

    Quote: marshes
    200 meter optics?

    strange huh and why all the "specialists" hang optics !?

    Quote: marshes
    I myself can say that I can conduct effective fire from the AKS-74 at a distance of 400 meters without any optics.

    is it at the shooting range, on the illuminated growth targets? I can also conduct "effective fire" in their direction.
    and on the head target, but not in the dash?

    Quote: marshes
    Even my soldiers who were called up from the countryside quite successfully fired from the SVD without optics at a distance of 400-600 m,

    "pretty successful" is how? how many hits in the head target out of 10?

    Quote: marshes
    Of course, urban dwellers need optics, because vision is damaged from monitors and TVs.

    oh, poor they are poor, urban dwellers!
    and the policemen are generally bad - why would they need collimators, sights, lasers, lights - will come out "non-urban" and will show everyone!
  24. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 19: 21 New
    -1
    Quote: scrabler
    believe then the NATO troops, which were shelled at both 500 and 600 meters from the AKM in the next deliveries of democracy to other countries.

    one shot one kill?
    shelling convoys and bases "for good luck" is somehow not interesting.

    Quote: scrabler
    I’ll even say more, at a distance of 400-500 meters you can conduct not only harassing fire, but it’s also quite nice to hit the enemy you are aiming at and all this with open sights and in your hands is far from a sniper.

    I have no doubt - what percentage of hit?
    and then the NATO somehow believes that it’s effective with optics - up to 300 meters ... further - DRM, and from 600 m - a sniper.

    Quote: scrabler
    and if the house is not only the enemy?

    guess what you need to do to stay in the house only the enemy?

    Quote: scrabler
    Can you imagine the amount you need to spend on creating a new model, a new ammunition and its distribution in the army?

    so the Israelites, no? and at your suggestion they need a "different" 5,56, which greatly simplifies the matter. but no - they are changing Galili to Tavor - and they don’t want new cartridges ...
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 19: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: iliq
      one shot one kill?

      Is it you who are talking about the work of the sniper or talking about firing a machine gun for which, I want to see, the main mode of operation is automatic fire
      Quote: iliq
      I have no doubt - what percentage of hit?

      Excellent percentage of hits, the enemy is enough wink
      Quote: iliq
      But the NATO members somehow think

      And they generally think a lot of things, and we do soldier
      Quote: iliq
      guess what you need to do to stay in the house only the enemy?

      Well, if following the example of NATO members, then call everyone in the house opponents of democracy and declare enemies. Personally, I feel closer to the option where only peaceful people remain in the building, but there is no enemy.
      Quote: iliq
      and new cartridges do not want.

      Kaknehotyat? They want and for a very long time they want 6,5 caliber, 6,8 millimeters want, and these cartridges themselves have long been there, but expensive and where to put the 5,56 and weapons under it?
  25. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 19: 26 New
    -1
    Quote: scrabler
    but the sleeve is not at all "cast iron" laughing will withstand much

    I saw it "stand" ...

    Quote: scrabler
    And you never thought that it was thanks to "race walking in a circle" that you go to work by car or public transport, and not by horse-drawn cart or infantry. What thanks to "race walking" at home a warm dinner awaits you in a couple of minutes and you do not need to make a fire to warm up food?

    I'm afraid with such "pushers" I would drive a caterpillar tractor (because instead of roads they would do "all-terrain vehicles"), and for dinner there would be the same ration;)

    Quote: scrabler
    It is such bold, not quite ordinary ideas that push progress forward. Or do you think that the wheel was invented and that's enough, you can stop there?

    So what, there are successful attempts to improve the wheel?
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 19: 39 New
      0
      Quote: iliq
      I saw it "stand" ...

      Strangely enough, but what has been done with the words "endure" or "a and x .. with it" works long and smoothly, and what is calculated before the micron refuses or does not work at all, because something was forgotten to take into account, where something was wrong and so on. Our age is no exception, although it should be the opposite.
      Quote: iliq
      I'm afraid with such "pushers" I would drive a caterpillar tractor (because instead of roads they would do "all-terrain vehicles"), and for dinner there would be the same ration;)

      And I would not refuse such a technique, only so that fuel consumption would be economical. And for dinner, just the opposite) Fried potatoes, boiled potatoes, "in uniform" for the lazy. And with the approach there is and it is no longer necessary to eat it baked on the fire and would be satisfied, and so it’s normal, why is it better?
      Quote: iliq
      So what, there are successful attempts to improve the wheel?

      Off-road tracked vehicles are better than wheels wink
  26. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 19: 51 New
    -1
    Quote: marshes
    Chest target. It was located on wooden shields at a distance of 400m.

    I wonder why in the course of shooting already 300 meters lying 8 rounds on one target indicate?
    and shoot at a fixed chest target from 100 meters?
    and at 300 m - only according to machine gun calculation and infantry groups?
    but at 400 meters - for some reason, only from SVD ...
    lie shooting courses or what?

    Quote: marshes
    The target was the same, of the three rounds knocked out 24-28.

    Israelis usually shoot 300 meters at a head target ...
    1. marshes
      marshes April 10 2013 20: 24 New
      +3
      Quote: iliq
      I wonder why in the course of shooting already 300 meters lying 8 rounds on one target indicate?

      We have something to say and do it. smile Moreover, 10 rounds of ammunition are hammered in our store and they are firing in solitary confinement. After the lessons are over, the remaining cartridges in zinc are shot as you like, well-shot cartridges weren’t forced to be collected and the zinc needed to be written off. There were targets, two growth figures and machine-gun calculation they did not work, the power cables interrupted all the time.
      Quote: iliq
      but at 400 meters - for some reason, only from SVD ...

      Of course, the sergeant’s training course included shooting from SVD, they shot mostly without optics, regretted it, only installed it during demonstration shootings. And so they trained from RPK-74, PKM, AGM-17 and RPG-7.
      Quote: iliq
      Israelis usually shoot 300 meters at a head target ...

      Well, these are the Israelis, and then we, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday with elements of rubber masochism, shooting at the PUTs, Friday night and so six months, this is when we served 1,5 and 2 years, now the sergeants are studying for 3 years, contractors.
      And so I will say for the guys from the villages, they are hardy, though not tall, sinewy, they do not ache, well done. And I’ll add, our eyes are narrow and we squint when we aim and we determine the distance to the target well, nature made it adapt. smile
  27. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 19: 58 New
    -1
    Quote: scrabler
    Is it you who are talking about the work of the sniper or talking about firing a machine gun for which, I want to see, the main mode of operation is automatic fire

    up to 300 meters - quite an ordinary motorized rifle (NATO), and without firing bursts.

    Quote: scrabler
    Excellent percentage of hits, the enemy is enough

    which opponent?

    Quote: scrabler
    And they generally think a lot of things, and we do

    and what is the result? compared with NATO members?

    Quote: scrabler
    And I wouldn’t refuse such a technique, only to be economical in fuel consumption.

    yeah, so where is the tractor? and then civilization somehow switched to asphalt roads, and some go all their own way;)

    Quote: scrabler
    Well, if, following the example of the NATO, then call everyone in the house opponents of democracy and declare enemies.

    NATO dare!

    Quote: scrabler
    How reluctant? They want and for a very long time want a caliber of 6,5, they want 6,8 millimeters, and these cartridges themselves have long been there

    these cartridges are even more powerful than 5,56, no? Do you want a pistol cartridge for a machine gun?

    Quote: scrabler
    but expensive and where to put 5,56 and weapons for it?

    I never heard of pistol ammunition for a machine gun ...
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 20: 13 New
      0
      Quote: iliq
      without firing bursts.

      is that during a single battle you will shoot, right? Now imagine that a 20 man shoots you the same way, a sad picture.
      Quote: iliq
      which opponent?

      to any opponent smile
      Quote: iliq
      and what is the result? compared with NATO members?

      Well, judging because they have not yet decided to compare apparently our result is not worse than them laughing
      Quote: iliq
      and some all go their own way;)

      the main thing that we go smile
      Quote: iliq
      These cartridges are even more powerful than 5,56, no?

      Look for the 6.5 Grendel cartridge
      Quote: iliq
      I never heard of pistol ammunition for a machine gun ...

      Nobody talked about them)
  28. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 20: 03 New
    -1
    Quote: scrabler
    Oddly enough, but what has been done with the words “withstand” or “a and x .. with it” works for a long time and without fail, but what is calculated to a micron fails or does not work at all, because they forgot to consider something, somewhere they made a mistake and so on.

    Well, the "products" are such - well, think about a centimeter there, half a meter here ...

    Quote: scrabler
    Our century is no exception, although it should be the other way around.

    yeah, compare Golf-1 and Golf-7?

    Quote: scrabler
    Off-road tracked vehicles are better than wheels

    so no one was able to "improve" the wheel?
    1. marshes
      marshes April 10 2013 20: 36 New
      +1
      Quote: iliq
      yeah, compare Golf-1 and Golf-7?

      So off topic, I went fishing with some on Escud, right-handed Suzuki Vitara, those on golf-1, those over the sand dune I jumped in the sand, the car is simple and reliable. smile I can imagine what will happen to golf 7. laughing
  29. Bad_gr
    Bad_gr April 10 2013 20: 05 New
    +3
    It’s bad that we have such draconian laws on weapons sad
    If it weren’t for them, then he would have bought Stechkin (and not only him) for some kind of sports shooting in nature.
  30. iliq
    iliq April 10 2013 20: 27 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    it’s you who will shoot solo during the battle, right?

    and how do the NATO members cope with it, the poor !? whereby only a few countries of the NATO bloc used AK.
    do not give your poverty (poor training of motorized riflemen) to pass off as dignity;)

    Quote: scrabler
    Now imagine that 20 people are shooting in the same way, a sad picture.

    So what? See the results of the actions of NATO members - what's wrong?

    Quote: scrabler
    to any opponent

    Well, yes, Afghanistan and Chechnya - this is not RA, this is someone else.

    Quote: scrabler
    Well, judging because they have not yet decided to compare apparently our result is not worse than them

    Are you talking about the USSR? and where is the USSR?
    or about the Russian Federation? so what's with the colony to fight something?

    Quote: scrabler
    the main thing that we go

    where?

    Quote: scrabler
    6.5 grendel

    So what? write that the effect is close to 7,62 at all distances. or how?

    Quote: scrabler
    Nobody talked about them)

    then I misunderstood.
    1. scrabler
      April 10 2013 20: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: iliq
      and how do the NATO members cope with it, the poor !? whereby only a few countries of the NATO bloc used AK.
      do not give your poverty (poor training of motorized riflemen) to pass off as dignity;)

      And for dignity, we give out our endurance and ability to adapt to the most difficult conditions.
      Quote: iliq
      So what? See the results of the actions of NATO members - what's wrong?

      that is, you claim that the armies of NATO use a single fire as the main? I hasten to disappoint, look at the videos that clearly show how they shoot, how they fight. Well, at least that way.
      Quote: iliq
      Well, yes, Afghanistan and Chechnya - this is not RA, this is someone else.

      Korea, Vietnam ...
      Quote: iliq
      or about the Russian Federation? so what's with the colony to fight something?

      What did you mean?
      Quote: iliq
      where?

      How to? To a brighter future! smile
      Quote: iliq
      So what? write that the effect is close to 7,62 at all distances. or how?

      And this is not enough?)))
  31. Argon
    Argon April 11 2013 02: 20 New
    +1
    Plus, I’m undoubtedly waiting for the continuation. An interesting sample according to the description, as far as I understand, the operation of automation resembles GSh-18. Such samples are often called “Personal defense weapons”, of course, it is more appropriate to use a different cartridge, but from the point of view of economy, the step was justified. (well, all this crap with the development, use of a new cartridge)
  32. Droid
    Droid April 11 2013 08: 56 New
    0
    Quote: scrabler
    Thus, it seems to me that if they demand that the machine take an intermediate place between a full-size automatic machine and software, both in terms of its dimensions and the tasks performed, then, based on domestic developments, it should be created under the cartridge 939, but not SP-5 or SP-6, and ammunition with a bullet without an armor-piercing core, roughly speaking just lead, wrapped in a shell, well, the form, balancing, weight, and so on, let the designers play for the result to be normal.

    Thank God we didn’t think of that before. The 9x39 cartridge has the only advantage over 5,45 - it's a good subsonic cartridge. If noiselessness is not needed, then nobody needs 9x39.
  33. LAO
    LAO April 12 2013 18: 34 New
    -1
    Everything is very good, but it is desirable to supplement technical articles with drawings (diagrams).