Military Review

The black myth of the "occupation" of Georgia by Russians

119
The black myth of the "occupation" of Georgia by Russians After the collapse of the USSR, in most of the new independent states they began to carry out a program of de-Sovietisation and de-Russification. A part of this program was a revision. stories. Historical mythology flourished in Georgia. One of the most famous Georgian historical myths is the myth about the occupation of Georgia by the Russians.


Georgian authors have forgotten that Georgia was under the threat of complete annihilation and gradual Islamization by Persia and the Ottoman Empire. The fact that the Georgian rulers have repeatedly asked Russia to intervene and save the Georgian people, to take it under their patronage. Forgotten that the various Georgian regions were merged within the framework of the Soviet Union in the Georgian SSR. It was forgotten about decades of peaceful life under the wing of the Russian and Red empires. They do not recall the fact that the best representatives of the Georgian clans joined the Russian elite. There were no phenomena common in relations between Western metropolises and their colonies, such as acts of genocide, mass terror, parasitism on the resources and forces of the occupied people, the ruthless exploitation of the conquered population. Georgians were not in the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union people of the second or third grade. No attention is paid at all to the fact that the Russian imperial and Soviet authorities “exploited” the Russian people much tougher than the “occupied” small nations.

Suffice it to recall just a few examples from history in order to refute the myth of the “Russian occupation” of Georgia and the Caucasus in general. In 1638, the king of Mingrelia Leon sent a letter to Tsar Mikhail Romanov about the desire of the Georgian people to become citizens of the Russian state. Mingrelia is a historical region in Western Georgia, inhabited by mingrelians, after the division of Georgia into 1442, an independent state entity. In 1641, the chartered letter was granted to the Kakhetian king Teimuraz I regarding the adoption of the Iberian land (Iberia, Iberia - the ancient name of Kakheti) under the auspices of Russia. In 1657, the Georgian tribes — the Tushins, Khevsurs, and Pshavs, asked the Russian Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich to accept them into Russian citizenship. Repeatedly they were asked to accept them into Russian citizenship and other Caucasian peoples - Armenians, Kabardians, etc.

Requests for help from Russia have repeatedly repeated in the 18 century. But during this period Russia could not fulfill the ambitious task of freeing the Caucasus from the influence of Turkey and Persia. There were bloody wars with the western neighbors, Turkey and Iran, the empire was shaken by palace coups, a lot of strength and resources were spent on internal problems. The work that emperor Peter I started by cutting through the "door" to the East was not continued by his successors, who were "pygmies" in the field of imperial construction, in comparison with him.

Only during Catherine II in the Caucasian and Eastern politics of Russia there was a radical change. Russia inflicted a serious defeat on the Ottoman Empire. When, at the end of 1782, the king of Kartli-Kakheti, Irakli II appealed to Russian empress Catherine II to accept her kingdom under the protection of Russia, he was not denied. The Empress gave Pavel Potemkin wide powers to conclude an appropriate agreement with the king Irakli. Lieutenant-General Pavel Sergeevich Potemkin assumed command of the Russian army in the North Caucasus in 1882. The representatives of Georgia were the princes Ivane Bagration-Mukhransky and Garsevan Chavchavadze.

24 July (4 August) 1783 of the year in the Caucasian fortress Georgievsk signed an agreement on patronage and supreme power of the Russian Empire with the united Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti (Eastern Georgia). Irakli II recognized the patronage of St. Petersburg and refused an independent foreign policy, he pledged not to enter into any relations with the neighboring states without prior coordination with the Russian border authorities and the Russian minister accredited with him. Heraclius renounced vassal dependence on the part of Persia or any other state and undertook for himself and his successors not to recognize power over anyone except the power of the Russian emperors. On the Georgian territory, the protection and security of Russian subjects was guaranteed. For its part, Petersburg vouched for the integrity of the possessions of Heraclius II, promised to protect Georgia from external enemies. The enemies of Georgia were also considered Russian enemies. The Georgians received equal trade rights with the Russians, could move freely and settle on Russian territory. The treaty equalized the rights of the Georgian and Russian nobles, clergy and merchants. To protect Georgia, the Russian government pledged to maintain on its territory two infantry battalions with 4 guns and, if necessary, increase the number of troops. At the same time, the Russian government strongly advised Heraclius to preserve the unity of the country and avoid internecine strife, eliminate all misunderstandings with the Imeretian ruler Solomon.

The contract was valid for several years. But then in 1787, Russia was forced to withdraw its troops from Georgia. The reason for this was the separate negotiations of the Georgian government with the Ottomans. King Heraclius, despite the warnings of P. Potemkin, concluded a contract with Akhaltsi Suleiman Pasha, which was ratified by the Sultan in the summer of 1787 (just during the war of Russia and the Ottoman Empire).

Russia's victory over Turkey in the 1787-1791 war improved Georgia’s position. The Ottomans, according to the Yassky Peace Treaty of 1792, rejected claims on Georgia and pledged not to take any hostile actions against the Georgian people.

During the Russian-Persian war 1796 of the year, the cause of which was the invasion of the Persians in Georgia and Azerbaijan in 1795, Russian troops reappeared on Georgian lands. However, the death of Catherine II led to a sharp turn in Russian politics. Pavel began to revise his mother’s policy. The Russian detachment was recalled from the Transcaucasus and Georgia.

In 1799, negotiations between Georgia and Russia resumed. A Russian regiment of General Lazarev entered Kartli-Kakheti. A Russian official representative at the court of George XII - Kovalensky arrived with him. With the permission of Paul, Count Musin-Pushkin entered into negotiations with the Georgian king George XII, who expressed “sincere desire both of the king ... (and) of all classes of the Georgian people” to join the Russian Empire.

George XII wanted Russia to fulfill the obligations assumed by the St. George treatise 1783 of the year. He clearly understood that the Kartli-Kakheti kingdom could not exist as an independent state. This was hampered by two main factors. First, it is the pressure from Turkey and Persia. The Ottoman Empire, having suffered from Russia a series of serious defeats in the 18 century, and being weakened by internal conflicts and problems, was losing its position in the Caucasus to the Russian Empire. However, Istanbul still did not want to come to terms with the loss of its influence in the Caucasus.

More actively continued to fight for the restoration of its former influence in the Caucasus, Persia. The active political cooperation between Georgia and Russia greatly alarmed the Persian government. Anxiety expressed and European rivals Russia - France and England. They could not enter into direct conflict with Russia over the region, since they did not border on it. But fearing the expansion of Russia's influence in the East, Paris and London focused their efforts on political games in Iran and Turkey. Britain and France tried, through secret political intrigues, with the help of the Ottoman Empire, or with the help of Persia, to stop the advancement of the Russians in the Caucasus and the East in general. To this end, the British and French have recognized the legitimate claims of Turkey and Persia for dominance in the South Caucasus. True, France and England were hindered by mutual rivalry, between them there were serious contradictions that prevented them from coming up with a united front (this will only become possible during the Crimean War). Thus, the foreign policy situation at the end of the XVIII century forced Georgia to become part of the powerful Russian Empire. It was a question of the survival of the Georgian people.

Secondly, internecine feuds have eaten away in Eastern Georgia. Georgian feudal lords, grouped around numerous princes who claimed the royal throne, during the life of King George XII, began a fierce internecine struggle. This bickering weakened the kingdom’s defenses, making it easy prey for Iran and Turkey. The feudal lords were ready to betray national interests and, for the sake of personal, narrow group interests, go to any agreement with the primordial enemies of the Georgian people - the Ottomans and Persians.

This same internecine struggle was one of the main reasons why the government of Pavel went to either liquidate the statehood of the Kartli-Kakhetian kingdom. The Georgian dynasty could not ensure the stability of the East Georgian kingdom, as the base of the Russian Empire in the Middle East. It was necessary to introduce direct Russian administration in order to ensure calm and security in Georgia.

It must be said that this reason - the internal political instability of the Georgian state calls into question the future of modern Georgia. It has already led to the secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. There is a danger of further collapse of Georgia. In particular, Ajaria can secede and go into the sphere of influence of Turkey. The constant internal political struggle in Georgia threatens the future of the Georgian people. Given the fact that the Middle East is becoming a “battlefield,” the foreign policy threat is also increasing. The global systemic crisis leaves Georgia no chance for survival. Sooner or later the Georgian people will come to the same thought as Tsar George XII, Georgia cannot survive without Russia. The only way to prosperity is close integration in the new “empire” (union).

Brief chronology of the last stage of Georgia’s accession to Russia

- In April, 1799, the Russian emperor Pavel I renewed the agreement on patronage with the Kartli-Kakheti kingdom. In the fall of the Russian troops entered Tbilisi.

- 24 June 1800, the Georgian embassy in St. Petersburg handed over to the Russian board of foreign affairs a draft document on citizenship. He said that Tsar George XII "eagerly wishes with his offspring, the clergy, the nobles and with all the people under his authority once and forever to accept the citizenship of Russia, promising to fulfill all the things that the Russians are doing." Kartli and Kakheti were to retain only the right of limited autonomy. George XII and his heirs retained the right of the Georgian throne. Kartli-Kakheti kingdom was subordinated to St. Petersburg not only in matters of foreign policy, but also in the sphere of domestic policy. The Russian emperor accepted this offer.

- In the autumn of 1800, the Georgian delegation proposed a draft of a closer integration of the two states. Pavel approved it. He announced that he was taking in the eternal citizenship of the king and all the people of Georgia. George XII was promised to leave him the royal rights to the end of life. However, after his death, it was planned to put David Georgievich governor-general with the title of the king, and Georgia to make one of the Russian provinces called the kingdom of Georgia.

Russian military presence in Georgia strengthened. This was done on time. The troops of Avar Khan invaded Georgia, at which the son of Heraclius, Tsarevich Alexander, was stationed. On November 7, two Russian regiments and Georgian militia, under the command of General Ivan Lazarev, near the village of Kakabeti, on the banks of the Iori River, defeated the enemy.

- December 18 signed a manifesto on the accession of Georgia to the Russian Empire (it was made public in St. Petersburg January 18 1801). At the end of 1800, the Georgian tsar became seriously ill, and all power gradually passed into the hands of the plenipotentiary representatives of Russia - Minister Kovalensky and General Lazarev.

- December 28 1800, George XII died, and the throne passed to King David XII. David received a good education in the Russian Empire, served in the Russian army, in 1797-1798. in the rank of colonel, was the commander of the Transfiguration Guards Regiment. By 1800, he was promoted to lieutenant general. These events exacerbated the internal political situation in Georgia: Queen Darejan (the widow of King Erekle II) and her sons categorically refused to recognize the authority of David XII, as well as the annexation of Kartli-Kakheti to Russia.

- 16 February 1801 of the year in Zion Cathedral in Tbilisi was read a manifesto on Georgia’s accession to the Russian Empire for all time. February 17 solemnly announced this manifesto to all Georgians.

- The death of Pavel did not change the situation, Emperor Alexander had some doubts about Georgia, but Paul’s manifesto was already announced and the accession had already begun. Therefore, 24 March 1801. David XII lost all authority and the commander of Georgia was appointed Lazarev, the commander of Georgia. A temporary board was established under his command, which lasted a year.

- 12 September 1801 was issued another manifesto on the accession of the Russian state of Kartli-Kakheti. In the spring of 1802, this manifesto was made public in Georgian cities. The Kartli-Kakheti kingdom was finally abolished.
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  1. Gari
    Gari April 9 2013 09: 22
    14
    St. George's treatise

    At the end of 1782, Kartli-Kakheti Tsar Irakli II appealed to the Empress of Russia Catherine II with a request to accept Georgia under the protection of Russia. In an effort to strengthen Russia's position in the Transcaucasus, Catherine II granted Pavel Potemkin broad powers to conclude an agreement with Tsar Irakli. Authorized from the Georgian side were the princes Ivane Bagration-Mukhransky and Garsevan Chavchavadze.
    Under the agreement, Tsar Irakli II recognized the patronage of Russia and partially refused an independent foreign policy, committing himself to serve the Russian Empress with his troops.
    Catherine II, for her part, acted as a guarantor of the independence and integrity of the territories of Kartli-Kakheti. Georgia was granted full internal independence. The parties exchanged messengers.
    The treaty equalized the rights of Georgian and Russian nobles, clergy and merchants (respectively).
    Of particular importance were the 4 secret articles of the treaty. According to them, Russia pledged to defend Georgia in the event of war, and in conducting peace negotiations, insist on the return to the Kartli-Kakheti kingdom of possessions that had long belonged to him (but were torn away by Turkey). Russia pledged to keep two infantry battalions in Georgia and in case of war to increase the number of its troops.
    At the same time, Georgians were urged to maintain unity and avoid internecine strife, for which Irakli II had to make peace with Tsar Imereti Solomon I (The country is surrounded by enemies, and they are at enmity).
    The main political significance of the St. George Treatise was to establish a protectorate of Russia with respect to Eastern Georgia, sharply weakening the positions of Iran and Turkey in the Caucasus, formally destroying their claims to Eastern Georgia.
    In 1783, in connection with the conclusion of the St. George Treatise, the construction of the Georgian Military Road between Georgia and Russia was started, along which several fortifications were built, including the fortress of Vladikavkaz (1784).

    The population was only about 1 million.

    In 1991, at the time of the collapse of the USSR - 5 million.
    For 2012 - 4 million (officially)
    1. carbofo
      carbofo April 9 2013 15: 52
      +5
      They die out and swear, where the mind is.
      1. cumastra1
        cumastra1 April 9 2013 17: 15
        +5
        They swear, and therefore die out - the law of being ...
        1. carbofo
          carbofo April 9 2013 17: 22
          +3
          By the way, the Baltic states have the same garbage.
    2. stas
      stas April 9 2013 23: 11
      +4
      At the time of the signing of the St. George Treatise, Georgians had no more than 500 thousand left. Georgian historians admit this fact.
  2. Perch_xnumx
    Perch_xnumx April 9 2013 09: 30
    +7
    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/История_Грузии



    On December 22, 1800, after almost a year of reflection, Paul I, fulfilling the request of the dying George XII, signs the Manifesto on the annexation of Georgia (Kartli-Kakheti) to Russia, announced on January 18, 1801, the death of Tsar George XII and the transfer of power to David XII in December 1800 year aggravated the situation in the country. Queen Darejan (widow of Heraclius II) and her sons categorically refused to recognize the power of Tsarevich David XII, as well as Georgia’s annexation to Russia.

    In 1805, the forty-thousandth army of the Iranian Crown Prince Abbas Mirza, who moved to Tbilisi, was stopped on June 24 by the Russian detachment on the Askerani River. On July 28, under Zagam, Abbas Mirza suffered a crushing defeat and the Persian army in disorder left Georgia.

    In 1810, the resistance of the Imereti ruler Solomon II was broken, and Imereti was included in Russia. Between 1803 and 1878, as a result of the Russo-Turkish wars, the remaining Georgian territories were also annexed to Russia.

    The XNUMXth century was characterized by mass peasant uprisings against the Georgian aristocracy and national liberation aspirations among the Georgian nobility and intelligentsia.

    60–90s of the XIX century - the construction of the Transcaucasian railway. village (Poti - Tbilisi, Batumi - Tbilisi - Baku). In 1900, the Transcaucasian railway was included in the All-Russian railway network. Industry is developing (textile, metalworking, leather, cognac and vodka, tobacco, mining - mining of coal, manganese). In the 90s, Georgia accounted for about 50% of world manganese exports. At the same time, the national liberation movement intensified, led by prominent writers, public figures who were educated in Russia and joined the ideas of the people's democrats Belinsky, Herzen, Dobrolyubov, Chernyshevsky.

    1905-1907 - armed rebellion brutally crushed by troops.

    Georgia’s annexation to Russia saved the Georgian nation from genocide and assimilation from neighboring countries. A hundred years after Georgia became part of the Russian Empire, the number of Georgians grew from 370 thousand to one and a half million people.
  3. Gari
    Gari April 9 2013 09: 42
    +3
    The economy of the Georgian SSR was part of the economy of the USSR. The currency in the Georgian SSR was the Soviet ruble.

    In 1928, 183 thousand workers and employees worked in the Georgian SSR.
    Until 1970, this value increased to 1 million 490 thousand people, of which 385 thousand inhabitants were employed in industry. Thus, the working population increased by more than 8 times. The economy of the Georgian SSR focused on industry and agriculture.
    The industry of the republic was based on rich mineral and hydropower resources, agricultural products. The Zemo-Avchal hydroelectric station, the Rion hydroelectric power station, the Sukhumi hydroelectric power station, the Chitakha hydroelectric power station, Tkvarcheli and Tbilisi thermal power plants were built. The republic produced up to half of the world production of manganese, which was mined at the Chiatura manganese deposit

    Currently, most industrial enterprises in Georgia are either idle or partially loaded (their potential is used by about 20%)
    In 1992, the volume of Georgian industrial production decreased by 40%. By 1998, the volume of industrial production in Georgia was 16% of the 1990 level.
    The total number of people employed in industry - 85,7 thousand people, including 4,3 thousand people in mining, manufacturing - 58,8 thousand people, electricity, gas and water - 22,6 thousand . person

    In 1970, 385 thousand inhabitants were employed in industry - in 2008, 85.7 thousand people
  4. anatoly57
    anatoly57 April 9 2013 10: 08
    33
    Well, yes, the occupation. How so! But in the Soviet Union, at the highest state posts were Stalin (Dzhugashvili), Beria, Ordzhonikidze, Shevardnadze, Mzhavanadze, much more can be remembered. Georgia flourished and grew rich from resorts, winemaking, breeding tea, all of this was in great demand in our united country. Actors, singers from Georgia enjoyed well-deserved love throughout the country! Georgian language, culture were not infringed upon, nor belittled. There is even one mention in the Union that Georgians implicitly meant that a person is not poor.
    And are all these signs of occupation? Oh well.
    1. Arget
      Arget April 9 2013 17: 55
      +3
      Just like in the Baltic states
  5. Atlon
    Atlon April 9 2013 10: 14
    -1
    Ko-z-ly they are mountain! That's the whole story ... It was necessary to give them to the Turks, and whenever the nosed ones were gone, drive the Turks out and take their territory. Or, like amers, to drive all the noses on the reservation, where they would degrade into drinking and die. As my grandmother used to say: "If you don't want evil, don't do good!"
    1. Gari
      Gari April 9 2013 10: 31
      0
      Quote: Atlon
      Ko-z-ly they are mountain! That's the whole story ... It was necessary to give them to the Turks, and whenever the nosed ones were gone, drive the Turks out and take their territory. Or, like amers, to drive all the noses on the reservation, where they would degrade into drinking and die. As my grandmother used to say: "If you don't want evil, don't do good!"

      I fundamentally disagree with you; you don’t need to touch ordinary people and rude rulers for their freaks, especially insult
      and where did you get such hatred from Transcaucasia, dear?
  6. Ostanin
    Ostanin April 9 2013 10: 16
    19
    Memory is short and most importantly selective - I remember here, I don't remember there. Correctly among our people they say, do not do good - you will not get evil. It's a shame for all of us, for centuries they defended them, shedding the blood of Russian soldiers, and now the invaders ... No need to say, only emotions when you read and look about how the former republics, which both under the Republic of Ingushetia and under the USSR lived like Christ for bosom, "kick" Russia with such hatred and anger that they do not feel towards their real enemies. I just want to evict all of them with a filthy broom from the country, all to one, let them cook in their own pot and do business with them from a position of strength, like the amers with the countries of the 3rd world - they almost did something wrong or vyakli - to democratize. These jackals got it, not only Georgians, everyone who separated at 91, and now throw mud at Russia, trying to curry favor with their new masters. Maybe they have such a human essence - whoever feeds, so we serve. Jackals in one word.
    1. nnz226
      nnz226 April 9 2013 17: 29
      +5
      simply, when they once again begin to cut them out (and the article contains hints of this, well, or at least decay and degradation), then you shouldn't pour Russian blood "saving fellow believers" (the same was in Ukraine during the time of B. Khmelnitsky : Three times Little Russians asked for the arm of Moscow, three times the Zemsky Sobor gathered and refused three times (Russia then did not recover after the Time of Troubles.) And only when the Poles gathered to "finally resolve the Ukrainian question" (in the style of the Jewish solution in 1941-45), and Little Russians came with a request 4 times and screams that Catholics are slaughtering Orthodox Christians, and here the Pereyaslavl Rada passed ("To the people of Russia, the Tsar of Moscow!"), and Russia entered the war. Stop (if it starts) they cut out all 95 percent, and then we’ll go chasing the enemies, at the same time we’ll return the territory and there will be no ungrateful saved ... But soon a mess may begin, either because of oil, or from -perfood and water.
      1. Alan
        Alan April 10 2013 19: 57
        0
        Quote: nnz226
        Nekhai (if it starts) they cut out all the percentages by 95, but then we’ll go drive the vorogs, at the same time we’ll return the territory and there will be no thankless saved.

        But the fact that among these percent of Russians have brothers and sisters, other relatives? Finally there are children. You are not confused by this; are these just numbers for you? Are all worth one Czech?
  7. pensioner
    pensioner April 9 2013 10: 21
    +9
    Quote: Atlon
    Ko-s-ly they are mountain! That's the whole story ...

    No need to call such a beautiful animal a Georgian. Offended.
  8. crambol
    crambol April 9 2013 10: 25
    -9
    The article is interesting, but, unfortunately, somewhat one-sided. It is necessary to recall some points.
    The first major uprising of the mountaineers-Georgians against Russian rule took place in 1804 and was brutally crushed in 1805. In 1812, a new uprising against extortion of provisions for troops with the help of military force, despite a lean year. There were also performances - 1819, 1860.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak April 9 2013 11: 11
      16
      crambol "The first major uprising of the Georgian mountaineers against Russian rule took place in 1804 and was brutally suppressed in 1805. In 1812, a new uprising against the extortion of food supplies for the troops with the help of military force, despite a lean year. There were also uprisings - 1819, 1860. . "
      Hmm ... how many of ours did not suppress them, but they all multiplied, and multiplied. They would certainly be better off in Turkey. The Turks knew how to suppress the uprisings, and deported too. Affectionately and without coercion once ... and half the population is gone. This is not a joke.
      1. BARKAS
        BARKAS April 9 2013 12: 00
        +2
        If we talk about uprisings, then such unrest in those times, and much more widespread, took place in many Russian and European territories and were always severely suppressed, it could not be a consequence of the occupation.
      2. Yarbay
        Yarbay April 9 2013 12: 55
        -1
        Quote: Nagaibak
        The Turks knew how to suppress the uprisings, and deported too. Affectionately and without coercion once ... and half the population is gone. This is not a joke.

        and where??
        When???
        More like a joke !!
        1. Bronis
          Bronis April 9 2013 13: 22
          12
          The Turks carried out a very strict national-religious policy, trying to assimilate the population of the conquered states demographically, culturally and religiously. From here, ksati and Islam in the Balkans. Any resistance was pressed hard. There was a lot of blood. In the XVIII century, the Ottoman Empire almost ate the Georgian kingdoms. and would eat, if not the St. George Treatise. Given that Georgians - Christians - would be the same genocide.
          Well, from the latter, created by the Turks: the Bulgarian genocide in 1877 and the 1913 massacre, the Cilician massacre 1909, the Hamidian massacre 1894 — 1896, the Armenian Genocide 1915-1923, the Syrian genocide 1914-1916, the Greek Genocide during the 1915-X and The massacre in Smyrna and much more).
          And so, their resorts are now good ...
          1. Gari
            Gari April 9 2013 14: 47
            +7
            Quote: Bronis
            Well, from the latter, created by the Turks: the Bulgarian genocide in 1877 and the 1913 massacre, the Cilician massacre 1909, the Hamidian massacre 1894 — 1896, the Armenian Genocide 1915-1923, the Syrian genocide 1914-1916, the Greek Genocide during the 1915-X and The massacre in Smyrna and much more).

            Rights to all 100%
            the assimilation of the population of the conquered states and peoples was very specific, forced to change faith, and if not, then the scimitar and all
            Incidentally, the indigenous population of Adjara, the Georgian Adzharians, at one time were one of the first to adopt Christianity, and by force became Muslims
            1. ayyildiz
              ayyildiz April 9 2013 21: 29
              -6
              Quote: Gari
              Rights to all 100%
              the assimilation of the population of the conquered states and peoples was very specific, forced to change faith, and if not, then the scimitar and all


              And why haven’t you been exterminated for 1000 years? Who brought your church to Istanbul?
              1. Pancho
                Pancho April 9 2013 22: 51
                +9
                Quote: ayyildiz
                Who brought your church to Istanbul

                Something I didn’t understand who brought whom somewhere? Constantinople (this is the city that you call Istanbul) has been standing for the third millennium and when it was founded by the Turks it still didn’t smell and the Church was there from the Emperor Constantine. You should know such things.
                1. ayyildiz
                  ayyildiz April 9 2013 23: 17
                  -3
                  Actually, I'm talking about the Armenian church! So read more on you!

                  Sevastopol (Ukrainian Sevastopol [2], in 1783 — 1784 and 1797 — 1826 — Akhtiar, the ancient Greek - Khersones, the old Russian - Korsun)

                  Here is the answer for Constantinople
                  1. mansur
                    mansur April 10 2013 01: 01
                    +2
                    The Ottoman Empire (Osm. دولت عالیه عثمانیه - Devlet-i Âliyye-i Osmâniyye [3]) is a state created in 1299 by the Ottoman tribes of Osman I in northwestern Anatolia [4]. After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Ottoman state became known as the empire. The fall of Constantinople was a major event in the development of Turkish statehood, since after the victory of 1453 the Ottoman Empire finally became entrenched in Europe, which is an important characteristic of modern Turkey.
                  2. Pancho
                    Pancho April 10 2013 19: 28
                    0
                    Quote: ayyildiz
                    Sevastopol (Ukrainian Sevastopol

                    Well, here it’s generally sour. Sevastopol is the Greek name, but not Ukrainian. And where does Constantinople come from?
              2. mansur
                mansur April 10 2013 01: 00
                +2
                Armenians began to migrate here in 384, and the Armenian community formed in 572. In the IX-XI centuries, the number of Armenians increased significantly: this was the period when the Macedonian dynasty (of Armenian origin) ascended the throne. This era entered the history of Byzantium as the “golden age”: the Byzantine Armenians were merchants, artisans, architects, warriors and commanders of the Armenian legions that made up the bulk of the Byzantine army. Some of them became emperors of Byzantium. The most famous of them were Levon V, Roman I, Nicephorus II Phocius, John I Tzimiskes and Vasily II the Slayer.
                It should be noted the Orthodox Armenian community, formed as a result of religious pressure and persecution from time to time, in particular, on the Armenians. The Orthodox Armenians were called "Romans".
                The Byzantine Church also had Armenian patriarchs. Thanks to the Armenians - emperors, patriarchs, commanders, scholars and wealthy merchants - Armenian architecture and painting, which left a big mark in Byzantine culture, penetrated into Byzantine reality.
                Thus, the first mass migration of Armenians to Constantinople began in the 1296th century. It is known that the marriage of Emperor Michael IX Paleologist with the sister of the Armenian king Kilikia Hetum Rita in XNUMX. strengthened the position of Armenians in Byzantium,
          2. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 9 2013 20: 14
            -7
            Quote: Bronis
            The Turks carried out a very strict national-religious policy, trying to assimilate the population of the conquered states demographically, culturally and religiously.

            The same as Russia!
            Quote: Bronis
            Armenian Genocide 1915-1923,

            The next myths * of the long-suffering people *!
            I don’t want to copy my old links, I’ll give new ones!
            -
            The Central Jersey newspaper in the US state of New Jersey published an appeal from a member of the Pax Turcica Institute, Philomena Iorio Tasoluk, in which she welcomed state laws on the study of crimes against humanity, including the Holocaust, genocides in Srebrenica and Rwanda.

            According to AzerTAc, the author of the appeal casts doubt on the bill of the State House of Representatives No. 176 and the Senate No. 47 on including the study of the so-called "Armenian genocide" in the secondary school curriculum, which has been in effect since 1949.
            The appeal says that the fact of the extermination of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was not established, as required by the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. In addition, the International Court of Justice of the United Nations, as the main UN body for determining the use of the term "genocide", did not get down to business and did not make conclusions on the so-called "Armenian genocide". It goes on to say that the American government did not recognize the fact of the "Armenian genocide".
            The author of the letter also notes that between 1914 and 1922, 523955 Turks, Kurds, Azerbaijanis and other Muslims were exterminated by armed units of Armenian nationalists planning to create their own state on the territories of other states in Anatolia and the Caucasus. Consequently, the author of the letter concludes, if the unproven "Armenian genocide" is indicated in the bills of the Senate and the House of Representatives, then they should also include a provision on the massacres of Turks.
            In addition
            March 31, 1918, according to the old calendar - March 21, on the Novruz holiday, the Armenian forces led by Shaumyan killed in a short time over 50 Muslim people - Azerbaijanis, Lezghins, as well as Jews and representatives of other peoples.

            Details: http://www.1news.az/analytics/20110331125039030.html
            Here are the events of 1905!
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-3.php
            and here is the apogee of the event and the massacre of 1918 !! When tens of thousands of civilians were killed in one day on March 31 in Baku
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-4.php
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-5.php
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-6.php
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/armyanstvo/arm1-7.php
            These are the recollections of Lieutenant Colonel Tverdokhlebov
            http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/istoch/is001.htm

            Here are notes on the situation of Armenians in Turkey, General Mayevsky, which gives a very interesting analysis of the situation at that time.
            http://journaleast.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/zapiskigeneralnoqokonsula/
            So the propaganda is one thing, the facts speak of another!
            1. bakso
              bakso April 9 2013 21: 05
              -6
              Well, you, the Armenians are not capable of this, they are noble wars and fight only with other wars ...)))
              I apologize if someone is hurt by my sarcasm, it’s their own fault, they have ruined Urartu, Byzantium, and now they also want to lower Russia there, the bird is sorry ...
              1. Yarbay
                Yarbay April 9 2013 21: 21
                -2
                Quote: Bakso
                Well, you, the Armenians are not capable of this, they are noble wars and fight only with other wars ...)))

                They are able to fight women and children, as well as kill unarmed and mock prisoners !!
                STORY OF THE CAPTIVE!
                http://southcaucasus.com/old/index.php?page=publications&id=401

                http://open.az/index.php?cstart=6&newsid=2478
                1. bakso
                  bakso April 10 2013 02: 43
                  0
                  I know all the same thing happened in Abkhazia, 92-93 years ...
                  I also know that there would be no war between Azerbaijan-Armenia, there would be another, Georgian-Armenian war, now they are silent, they know that if they fight with the Georgians, then not Russia and not all their diaspora abroad will save them ...
                  1. Yarbay
                    Yarbay April 10 2013 07: 21
                    -2
                    Quote: Bakso
                    I know that all the same thing happened in Abkhazia, 92-93 years.

                    I know what crimes the Armenians from the Baghramyan battalion committed in that war and I know very well!
                    Quote: Bakso
                    I also know that there would be no war between Azerbaijan-Armenia, there would be another, Georgian-Armenian war,

                    I agree!!
                    Quote: Bakso
                    know that if you fight with the Georgians, then not Russia and not all of their diaspora abroad will save them ...

                    Well, here you are mistaken!
                    1. bakso
                      bakso April 10 2013 09: 33
                      0
                      You misunderstood my words, it says "they know that if you fight with the Georgians, then not Russia and not all of their diaspora abroad will not save them ...", IF AND (that is, if you fight with Azerbaijan And start a war with Georgia) then they are simply surrounded.
              2. mansur
                mansur April 10 2013 01: 06
                +1
                Narses (arm. Ներսես; 478-573, also spelled Narzes, Nerses) - commander and influential court of the Eastern Roman Empire, of Armenian descent, under Emperor Justinian I. Along with Belisarius, he became one of the first great commanders of the early Middle Ages. Prior to his military career, he alternately held the posts of overseer of archives, the committee of sacred bounties (treasurer), praepositus sacri palatii (which actually equaled the emperor’s first adviser), and also often played the role of emperor’s personal emissary in important foreign affairs. At the age of 74, he led the company against the Ostrogoths, which ended in a brilliant victory for the Byzantines. Having expelled from Italy and ready to subjugate its empire, Narses managed to radically change the history of the Apennine Peninsula. He was considered the favorite of Justinian and Theodora.
                After the victory at Busta Gallorum, the siege of Rome began. The siege did not last long, given the small number of Gothic garrison and the fact that the population as a whole supported the Byzantine commander. With the help of a huge number of archers and siege equipment, Narses hit the main gate of the city, while John struck at another part. [42] Soon, Rome was taken, and Narses and his army were solemnly welcomed by the inhabitants of the “eternal city”.
            2. Bronis
              Bronis April 9 2013 22: 03
              +6
              Greetings, Yarbay.
              The Turks carried out a very strict national-religious policy, trying to assimilate the population of the conquered states demographically, culturally and religiously.

              The same as Russia!

              You know, I love examples and arguments. Bring please. Who was cut out on religious grounds, when and in what quantity.
              On the Armenian Genocide. The term "genocide" itself was introduced into use in 1943, and into international law - in 1948 by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The subject of legal regulation of this legal regulation is quite understandable from the name, but the retroactive procedure is extremely confusing and ambiguous, which is understandable. And the host countries had many "sins" in their own colonies. And digging deep did not make much sense - the history of mankind is a history of blood and violence, above all.
              The legal definition of genocide is “acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, any national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such”. Massacres in the Ottoman Empire took place. If you don't want to call it genocide, don't. This does not stop mass murder from being murder.
              As for the Americans. The reference to their national legal system when assessing the existence of the fact of genocide is inadmissible - not that level. At the same time, from a legal point of view, they are right to remove the word "genocide". True, they replaced it with "mass murder". Maybe it became easier for someone ...
              By the way, here is what the US ambassador to 1915 wrote in his report:
              http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/730/fzyw160.jpg
              In the end, when the Ottoman Empire began to collapse, all these processes escalated. Interethnic clashes and mutual beating are logical - they cut you, you cut. Either you or you ... and it went in a circle ... But the Turkish authorities let the trigger down - for them it was the only way to preserve the sprawling state. The trouble is that peaceful people died from all sides, often angry with each other and hating to this day. and the "bad rebels" were not only Armenians, but also Bulgarians, Greeks and even some Muslims - residents of modern Syria.
              I understand the relationship between Azerbaijan and Armenia. He himself has many friends of both nationalities. And all are quite normal, good, in general, people. It hurts when politics intervenes in our (ordinary) relations and the demonization of one or another nationality begins. Yes, and the events of the last 25 years in the post-Soviet space is simple ... Politicians massacre, but with the hands of the people (one way or another). And they will be asked ... I don’t demonize the Turks, I don’t whitewash the Armenians, and I don’t deify the political circles of the Russian Empire. But what was happening in the Port is a phenomenon in many respects identical to the Holocos (scale and cruelty). And it happened there for centuries with state permission. Of course, this was not one of a kind for world history. How many Indians killed the colonialists - in general, can not be counted. But this is not a reason to deny the killing of Armenians, Bulgarians, Greeks.
              In general, let's live together. Cote Leopold, in the end, we all watched. At least something we all have in common is still ... scary when new generations grow up. And they will begin to push each other with their foreheads ...
              1. Yarbay
                Yarbay April 9 2013 22: 58
                -1
                Quote: Bronis
                The legal definition of genocide is “acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, any national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such”. Massacres in the Ottoman Empire took place. If you don't want to call it genocide, don't. This does not stop mass murder from being murder.


                Hi Bronis!
                That is not the question!
                Have you read my links ??
                The question is that the Armenians lived beautifully in the Ottoman Empire, but yielding to the provocations of Western countries, they raised their emotion in the rear of the Turkish army, during which thousands of women and children of those soldiers who were at the front were killed!
                There is a link to the notes of Lieutenant Colonel Tverdokhlebov, read it!
                Since 1905, civilians have been massively killed in our territory, I also gave links there!
                Quote: Bronis
                By the way, here is what the US ambassador to 1915 wrote in his report:

                And what should he write ??
                After all, they right-winged it, they prepared it !!
                After all, Armenia still refuses to create a commission of historians to study the issue!
                Quote: Bronis
                I understand the relationship between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

                Believe me, dear, you don’t even come close !!
                Even in Sumgait, it was the Dashnak Armenians who provoked the mob to murder and crimes against their relatives !!
                Google Eduard Grigoryan!
                and his gang killed 6 of 28 victims and raped 5 women !!
                Two women immediately confronted Grigoryan as a rapist and confronted their father with an ax!
                Here is the interrogation video
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7BQbKbRIX4&list=PL39AB2ACB14DA9177
                here is an interview with the public prosecutor!

                http://www.1news.az/interview/20110119100252798.html
                http://www.1news.az/interview/20110122102736004.html
                http://www.1news.az/interview/20110131100323551.html
                http://www.1news.az/interview/20110127094816092.html

                Three Armenians who were involved in the preparation of this crime were arrested!
                The elite of Armenians, alas, is mired in bloody crimes and is leading its people into the abyss, for the sake of the idea of ​​fix!
                1. Yarbay
                  Yarbay April 9 2013 23: 22
                  0
                  Bronis, On the situation of Armenians in Turkey read General Mayevsky, I gave the link above !!
                  1. Bronis
                    Bronis April 10 2013 09: 06
                    +3
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    Bronis, On the situation of Armenians in Turkey read General Mayevsky, I gave the link above !!

                    I read Maevsky and many others (from different sides and neutral opinions). He made conclusions for himself. The fact that the Armenians (and all Christian peoples and even some Muslims) in the Ottoman Empire lived worse than the Turks themselves is true. Otherwise, they simply would not have created an empire from such different ethnic and cultural groups. Each has his own shirt closer - this is understandable.
                    You have a different opinion and I treat him with understanding, this is completely normal. Neither I, nor you (and neither) are the bearers of absolute truth, nor do we claim.
                    As for the conflict between Azerbaijanis and Armenians, it is also old, you know. We must not forget either the Khojaly events, or Sumgait, or Shusha, or dozens of others. People cannot be killed either for ethnic or religious reasons. And in such conflicts, as a result, no saints remain. But each side is trying to be "infallible." The only way out is the trial of criminals, no matter whose side they represent. But this is idealism, politics is politics. And everything is in a loop ... and someone benefits from this ...
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay April 10 2013 09: 32
                      0
                      Quote: Bronis
                      The only way out is the trial of criminals, whose side they did not represent

                      I completely agree with you on this!
                      Quote: Bronis
                      in the Ottoman Empire, life was worse than the Turks themselves - true. Otherwise, they simply would not have created an empire from such different ethnic and cultural groups.
                      How did our conversation begin !! ??
                      So Russia was an empire, and naturally, other nations did not live better than Russians either !!
                      1. Bronis
                        Bronis April 10 2013 13: 38
                        0
                        So Russia was an empire, and naturally, other nations did not live better than Russians either !!
                        It was different. The Russian Empire also has specific features. First, the absolute majority of the local elite was included in the national elite. Finland's position, for example, was privileged; they even had the right to vote for women in the first elections to the Duma. Ukraine with the Cossacks is a freeman against the background of its own enslaved people. Of course, you shouldn't idealize. It was not so everywhere and not always. But they did not try to cut anyone to the root, which does not negate clashes and even military clashes. History is like that. And often the thesis "hit your own, so that others are afraid" worked for us. Even those who are now commonly called tyrants in our country (and not all of them are Russians) were no worse in the titular nation than in others. And the most interesting thing is an article (unexpectedly) about Georgia. I remembered Bagration ...
                        Okay. Thanks for the discussion. It's time to finish. And then I read new articles I have not seen. Good luck to you.
                2. ayyildiz
                  ayyildiz April 9 2013 23: 23
                  -2
                  Quote: Yarbay
                  during which thousands of women and children of those soldiers who were at the front were killed!


                  527.000 Turks killed
          3. ayyildiz
            ayyildiz April 9 2013 21: 34
            -1
            Do you know that the Ottoman Empire did not tax non-Muslims?
            And in the Balkans, few Turks were killed? My great-grandfather before the eyes of my grandfather was killed by the Bulgarians!
            1. Bronis
              Bronis April 10 2013 08: 25
              +1
              Do you know that the Ottoman Empire did not tax non-Muslims?

              The most interesting thing is that it is not. The same Armenians and Bulgarians (non-Muslims) belonged to the so-called. "himmies". They did not pay zakat - a purely Muslim tax, but they paid jizya - their own tax. As a rule, it was more by a third or even half.
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 9 2013 13: 51
          +8
          [quote = Yarbay] and where ??
          When???
          More like a joke !!
          Yes, the Turks were a very peaceful people. Cruelty has never been shown. Hehe ... these are the peoples who were part of their empire inventing. And they are of course white and fluffy.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 9 2013 19: 44
            -7
            Quote: Nagaibak
            Yes, the Turks were a very peaceful people. Cruelty has never been shown. Hehe ... these are the peoples who were part of their empire inventing. And they are of course white and fluffy.

            No less than the Russian people !!
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak April 9 2013 20: 35
              +6
              Nagaybak "Not less than the Russian people !!"
              I doubt it ... the Turks will have a bigger list than the Russians. And how many peoples voluntarily entered the Ottoman Empire? Since they are like Russians. Or is this not an indicator? The Russians did not have such an institution as the Janissaries. The Russians did not take the boys from the conquered peoples and did not cross them in their faith. It just never occurred to them. Why would they introduce a tax on blood like the Turks did. Say in relation to the warlike highlanders of the North Caucasus. Another thing is that nothing good would come of it.
              If you doubt the Armenian Genocide, this is one thing. But the Turks were tough in relation to other nations. And less or more are evaluation categories.
              1. ayyildiz
                ayyildiz April 9 2013 21: 40
                -3
                But yeah! According to this, millions from the Crimea and the North Caucasus emigrated to the Ottoman Empire! And in general I am silent in the Balkans!
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak April 10 2013 08: 01
                  +1
                  ayyildiz "But yeah! That's why millions emigrated from the Crimea and the North Caucasus to the Ottoman Empire!"
                  As for the millions, to put it mildly, an exaggeration. And those who remained executed them all?
                  ayyildiz "And in the Balkans I am generally silent!"
                  That is right. The Balkan peoples have their own account for the Turks. They hate them there at least.
        3. FAXI
          FAXI April 9 2013 16: 00
          +6
          The book is called The Red River, the events of the genocide of the Greeks of Pontians and Armenians in the good-natured Asman are written there
          read empires if not where where when, but most importantly how !!!
        4. cumastra1
          cumastra1 April 9 2013 17: 20
          0
          Do not try to say such an thing to an Armenian - he will be offended greatly. Armenians remember the genocide.
          1. Gari
            Gari April 9 2013 17: 30
            +3
            Quote: cumastra1
            Do not try to say such an thing to an Armenian - he will be offended greatly. Armenians remember the genocide.

            This cannot be forgotten, almost every Armenian family is rooted in Western Armenia, all my great-grandfathers are from there.
            For me, two dates are sacred: one as a holiday, the other as mourning
            This is May 9 Our Victory Day, and April 24 is the Day of the Armenian Genocide
        5. ausguck
          ausguck April 10 2013 01: 00
          0
          Quote: Yarbay
          and where??
          When???
          More like a joke !!

          1915, the genocide of the Armenians ... this is so, offhand ...
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay April 10 2013 07: 17
            0
            Quote: ausguck
            1915, the genocide of the Armenians ... this is so, offhand ..

            Offhand answered!
            So write less offhand))))
    2. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets April 9 2013 11: 50
      +7
      Quote: crambol
      In 1812, a new uprising against the extortion of provisions for troops with the help of military force, despite a lean year.

      Such things are generally accepted practice, just remember that in Russia itself the peasants were generally slaves and no one was going to ask them anything, in principle. One might think that such happy, equal Georgians lived, they were happy with everything, too: Russian bastards took everything away. The Georgians wanted to eat fish and sit down, but it doesn’t happen. It was just that in due time it was necessary to think what is better: to lie under Persia or Port, or under Russia. Georgia chose Russia, now regrets. Likely, if it became part of Iran, then all Georgians would get Turkish Delight on Sundays.
    3. bakso
      bakso April 9 2013 13: 19
      -1
      Thank you, as long as there are people in this country like you, she is really great ...
    4. Uhalus
      Uhalus April 10 2013 00: 41
      0
      And how many such riots were in Russia, among the Russian peasants ... This is not a rebellion against dominion, but a rebellion against the authorities and local abuse; and suppressed not so hot as cruelly, because the former Georgian rulers slaughtered entire villages, and the Russians only dispersed the crowd of rebels ... Well, they still grabbed the instigators, and that was not always the case.
      1. bakso
        bakso April 10 2013 02: 20
        0
        Auls are not from the Georgians.
        What does the Georgians do in their homeland, do you intend to translate the topic of conversation or you don’t understand what this is about ???
    5. mark021105
      mark021105 April 11 2013 01: 23
      0
      There are always dissatisfied in any state. In Russia, too, all evil spirits crawled out ...
  9. Gari
    Gari April 9 2013 10: 44
    -1
    About two years ago there was a beautiful city in Tbilisi, a cafe, everything was fine, people were still hospitable, kind, wine, Khachapuri Kura embankment, only in the center on Rustaveli Street the Museum of Soviet Occupation caught my eye - I they say that I’ve often visited myself, I spent my childhood with my grandmother in Georgia, in a beautiful town on the Black Sea coast, the happiest time and memories, everyone lived together, no problem, could not stand it :, what kind of x .. the Soviet occupation are you, what, and what are we rulers, and then a little further came across the NATO allied office in Georgia.
  10. apro
    apro April 9 2013 11: 18
    +7
    God forbid, again, the Russian heart will tremble and forgive these loafers, it would be better if we will be their occupiers.
  11. Chicot 1
    Chicot 1 April 9 2013 11: 25
    +9
    This is not even a myth, much less "the black"This is the delirium of a stoned broom mare. And the reasons for this delirium are quite understandable - after all, the post-Soviet leadership of Georgia (starting with its first president, Zviad Gamsakhurdia) needed to justify its anti-Russian (and in essence anti-Russian) orientation in foreign policy and overt gravitation towards the bearers of "civilization and democratic values" in the form of Western countries and their associations ...
    Then this policy was continued to one extent or another by Eduard Shevardnadze and Mishiko Saakashvili ... I think that the new leadership of Georgia (and Mishiko most likely "will go away") will continue the same policy, but in a milder form. So, most likely, the wording of this delirium itself will change to a more amorphous one, but its essence will remain the same - anti-Russian ...
    1. Gari
      Gari April 9 2013 12: 05
      +1
      Mikheil Saakashvili, who was injured during a bike ride, has been undergoing a second consecutive operation in an Istanbul hospital for the second time. About this with reference to the Georgian media reports the agency "Interfax". Earlier it became known that the Georgian president broke his collarbone in three places.
      The media published mixed information about the circumstances in which Saakashvili was injured. At first it was reported that he had broken his arm after falling off his bicycle. Then there was information that the Georgian president had cycled to the highway and crashed into a trailer. The incident allegedly occurred in Antalya, from where Saakashvili was taken for treatment to the Turkish capital.
      1. Chicot 1
        Chicot 1 April 9 2013 12: 13
        +4
        Quote: Gari
        Mikheil Saakashvili, who was injured during a bicycle ride, has been doing a second operation in an Istanbul hospital for the second time, an additional operation ... Earlier it became known that the Georgian president broke his collarbone in three places.


        This is his, Mikhail Saakashvili’s causal difficulties. I am not going to sympathize, much less pity him ... Here I am such a completely intolerant type ... am
        And he had to be treated much earlier. But not the collarbone, but the head ... wink
      2. Hudo
        Hudo April 9 2013 12: 29
        +5
        Quote: Gari
        The Georgian president rode a bicycle onto a highway and crashed into a trailer. The incident allegedly occurred in Antalya, from where Saakashvili was taken for treatment to the Turkish capital.



        Tie Sahak chain grabbed ...
      3. bakso
        bakso April 9 2013 13: 15
        -11 qualifying.
        The whole problem is that there is no way to solve the problem directly, between conflicting ones, such as YOU, popping your nose wherever you go, strange, such a huge country and it listens to such rams as KURGANYAN or Lavrov (also Tbilisi Armenians), now the question is, what does this incident have to do with it, what difference does it make to you what happened to Saakashvili, even though you Armenians shut up, there was nothing but a betrayal from you ...
        1. Gari
          Gari April 9 2013 14: 24
          +6
          Quote: Bakso
          The whole problem is that there is no way to solve the problem directly, between conflicting ones, such as YOU, popping your nose wherever you go, strange, such a huge country and it listens to such rams as KURGANYAN or Lavrov (also Tbilisi Armenians), now the question is, what does this incident have to do with it, what difference does it make to you what happened to Saakashvili, even though you Armenians shut up, there was nothing but a betrayal from you ...

          So you emphasize the Armenian surnames and call rams of respected people who have achieved what you have in your life, and don’t shut your mouth and moreover do not call those people who lived on the land of Georgia for centuries and did not bring any benefit,
          they built, healed, and so on, I have a lot of friends myself among the Megrels, Kakhetians, Imeretins, Gurians, and I care what will happen to Georgia, where I can be said to have grown up, have been so often in childhood, and with our brotherly people of Georgia, as since such traitors as Shevarnadze and Saakashvili are sitting over them, because of them, the once fertile land of what Georgia was like in 1991 became what it is now, moreover, it lost Abkhazia and Ossetia, and soon it will lose Adjaria, which if you don’t know Turks call Adjaristan among themselves, and try to touch the Turk with your finger, you will suffer, you yourself know it

          If you read carefully, you will see that neither Georgia, nor one Georgian, I did not even think to insult
          1. bakso
            bakso April 9 2013 19: 11
            -5
            Gary, you and I didn’t drink vodka in the tavern and didn’t steam in the bath, so be so kind as not to poke me, you shouldn’t show your upbringing, leave it to yours !!
            Now, at the expense of good devotees and peace-loving builders, doctors, and so on. Armenians: you please do not confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs, I will give several cases of devotion and fidelity of Armenians ...)
            Heraclius of the 2nd, the Armenians betrayed just in the ice battle, when they released the ambassador shah from prison, drove him away to the shah and transmitted important information about the state of the Georgian troops, only after that the shah could take Tbilisi and defeat Irakli the 2nd.
            1918-1920 years, the attack of the Armenian troops on Georgia, the Georgians did not believe in it until they came to Shulaveri (about 70-100 km from Tbilisi), only after that they ordered General Mazmiashvili, within a week they restored the border.
            Meanwhile, in the center of Tbilisi, in the house of the Armenian Diaspora, volunteers were collected and donations from Armenia that attacked Georgia, what cynicism, until the Minister of Internal Affairs found out about this ...
            You can say a lot, why did the Turks punish you Armenians ??? you don’t want to talk about this, because during the Russo-Turkish war, the Armenians massacred civilians in the rear of the Turks, women of old people and children, this is the true reason for your genocide, the betrayal of the country in which you lived, lived no worse than others !!! !!!!!!!!!!
            How much more will you transfer, remember the words of Lermontov, remember what you did under Bayazet, remember what you did in Abkhazia 1992-93, when the battalion named after Baghramyan was especially cruel to the Georgians. For which you slaughtered about 500 Azerbaijanis at the beginning of the 000th century, you still blather about some good from you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Turks call Adzharistan, and what do you call the original Georgian lands of Samtskhe-Javakheti ??? Javakhk ?? !!! this is your true face !!!!!
            But the Turks and Georgia are called Gurdzhistan, the country of wolves ...
            Time will give everything to everyone, I think so ...)))
            1. torrnado
              torrnado April 9 2013 21: 36
              +3
              Are you a rodent Ali is Azerbaijani? Well, say so! It’s not clear what you are doing with the occupiers.
              1. Gari
                Gari April 10 2013 00: 25
                +1
                Quote: torrnado
                Are you a rodent Ali is Azerbaijani? Well, say so! It’s not clear what you are doing with the occupiers.

                So I don’t understand who he is? Bakso?
                1. bakso
                  bakso April 10 2013 02: 24
                  -4
                  I am Georgian, unlike you, I do not consider shameful (Armenians are a profession, Armenian is a nation)))) such a formulation of the name of my people, Armenians ...)))
              2. bakso
                bakso April 10 2013 02: 32
                -1
                I was beaten by a choice in the mid-90s, either Russia or the USA, I chose Russia, and I do not regret it, this mentality is close to me, there are still people in this country who I love and respect.
            2. Pancho
              Pancho April 9 2013 23: 00
              +3
              The Georgian nobility occupied the most important posts in the Shah administration, right up to the commanders of the troops. Somehow it does not fit with the image of the victim.
              1. bakso
                bakso April 10 2013 02: 29
                0
                Sometimes the shah, as a sign of humility and were taken hostage by the children of kings and nobles, there were such cases, for example, Giorgi Saakadze (probably he is also an Armenian yes ???))))) who had to escape to the shah, under his leadership, Percy conquered India, history Georgia is big and many-sided, there are times of sorrow and joy, greatness and decline, only this is our story, which, unlike others, we do not steal, we still do not appropriate strangers ...
              2. Yarbay
                Yarbay April 10 2013 08: 50
                +1
                Quote: Pancho
                The Georgian nobility occupied the most important posts in the Shah administration, right up to the commanders of the troops. Somehow it does not fit with the image of the victim.

                The Georgian nobility also occupied a high position in the structures of the Russian government and what ??
                And in the Ottoman Empire, many viziers and generals were Armenians!
                By the way, the last great vizier was also an Armenian!
                1. Pancho
                  Pancho April 10 2013 19: 25
                  +1
                  The answer is obvious, how do you not see it?
                  1. bakso
                    bakso April 10 2013 19: 48
                    -1
                    Yes, you have a rare form of insight ...))))
            3. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 10 2013 09: 04
              -1
              Quote: Bakso
              Gary, you and I vodka in a tavern

              Gary is hiding from me, but with you he is pretending to be a hero))))
  12. Tartary
    Tartary April 9 2013 12: 13
    +4
    Quote: Chicot 1
    So, the wording of this nonsense will most likely change to a more amorphous one, but its essence will remain the same - anti-Russian ...

    The whole post did not quote, but it’s so ...
    And what, today's many liberals in Russia want a different fate for the Russian state than to shrink within the boundaries of Russia in the 15th century? Thin voices are already ringing about Tatarstan, the Caliphate, etc. Few examples in history of discord and then reunion? True, the people missed the apostle of such "round dances" ...
    Again, someone wants to excel at taking Kazan or Astrakhan, or any other city?

    Such liberal politicians are pushing, pushing - everyone is trying to squeeze out at least something ingenious, to be noticed, appreciated (better by gold) and left in history, but looking over his shoulder, and the acre of smelly gaumna, after zealous attempts and there is nothing in the Russian country ...
    These are ridiculous ... I didn’t do them - they would be even funnier-b ... wassat fellow
    1. Chicot 1
      Chicot 1 April 9 2013 12: 57
      +5
      Quote: Tartary
      And what, many of today's liberals in Russia want a different fate for the Russian state than shrink within the borders of the 15th century Russia? Subtle voices are already ringing about Tatarstan, the Caliphate, etc. There are few examples of tearing and then reunion in the history of?

      I have already expressed on the pages of our site the idea that it is high time to bring our education to a common denominator in all subjects. This is especially true of higher education, and especially the disciplines of the humanities, and especially history ...
      And to lead so that all kinds of "national scientific elite", which "pumps" the brains of the younger generation with "previously unknown facts" could not even utter a word, not that loudly and in all hearings push their "most plausible research" into society. ..
      And it will also be absolutely useful to fasten among the population the influence of all kinds of religious organizations (read "sects") of various kinds and directions. Moreover, screw it tight ...
      It is then that it is not necessary to be different again "when taking Kazan"... wink
    2. Deniska
      Deniska April 9 2013 12: 59
      0
      How not ??? And Gaster from the CIS countries?
  13. Gari
    Gari April 9 2013 12: 14
    +5
    In Tbilisi, in the center on Rustaveli Street, he himself saw a museum of Soviet occupation,
    I spent my childhood with my grandmother in Georgia, on a town on the Black Sea coast, I remember everything, what kind of occupation, we lived in oil,
    and next to the ,, museum ,, is the Allied office of NATO

    there is hope that the new government of Ivanishvili can change something, the people with hope therefore elected him
    1. ULxaw86
      ULxaw86 April 9 2013 12: 42
      +1
      [quote = Gari] In Tbilisi, in the center on Rustaveli Street, I saw it myself, a museum of Soviet occupation

      I can call fire on myself with my comments, but, I think, in every dispute, you first need to imagine yourself in the opponent's shoes, then you can understand something for yourself. Let me give you this argument: I recently watched a rather old film "SIR". This is an acronym! "Freedom is Paradise".
      Summary: How many wolves do not feed, anyway, looks into the forest!
      1. bakso
        bakso April 9 2013 18: 19
        +1
        Dear, you are right, this is the true reason, flattery of envy and hatred, people just probably don’t need it, they are used to living under oppression, the word freedom for them has become synonymous with the enemy of an empire, in which the cheapest empire is human freedom and life ...
        Who needs it to grasp alien, for this we must accordingly think, at least have those human values ​​and gray matter ...
  14. Deniska
    Deniska April 9 2013 12: 56
    +4
    The Caucasian peoples are very cunning !!! They are always for those with whom they are better. Now look at our Chechnya - while we feed the majority is silent. And imagine what will happen if we say that all the guys have been subsidizing for 10 years now it’s time for you to earn your own life about yourself !!! - take up arms and will be 95; (
    1. Canep
      Canep April 9 2013 14: 57
      +3
      Chechens did not participate in the Great Patriotic War (warriors). For which they were deported. And now they are not drafting from the army. Frozen, they are like their president.
      1. Deniska
        Deniska April 9 2013 15: 41
        +3
        I'm talking about Georgians. When they realized that their Turks would be slaughtered like sheep ... then they began to beg for the empire. And not the Turks would duck ...
      2. mamba
        mamba April 9 2013 15: 48
        0
        Quote: Canep
        Chechens did not participate in the Great Patriotic War (warriors).

        According to the testimonies of the surviving participants in the heroic defense of the Brest Fortress, from the scarce documentary data of the headquarters archives, and from the materials of the Museum of Defense of the Hero Fortress, it is known that over two thousand Soviet soldiers and officers died during all the days of fighting in the citadel and the three fortified areas adjoining it. And among them - more than 300 soldiers of Chechen-Ingushetia.
        Until the end of 1942, the 255th Separate Chechen-Ingush Regiment fought excellently on the southern approaches to Stalingrad. In the battles of Kotelnikovo, Chilekovo, Sadovaya, near Lake Tsatsa and in a number of other places, he suffered heavy losses.
        During the war, more than 18.500 Chechens and Ingushs were called up and mobilized into the army. Two thirds of them were volunteers. The total number of Chechen and Ingush Red Army soldiers who fought against the Nazis on the fronts of World War II amounted to more than 40 thousand people.
        Quote: Canep
        For which they were deported.

        The deportation of Chechens and Ingush, apparently, was prepared long before the start of its implementation. In the spring of 1942, voluntarily mobilized, fully provided with equestrian personnel, well-equipped, staffed by experienced combat command and political personnel, and already having received army number 114, the Chechen-Ingush cavalry division was dissolved at the insistence of Beria.
        In February 1944, the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was abolished, and the people were resettled in Central Asia and Kazakhstan. Motive: for weak participation in the war against the Nazis ...
        More details: http://www.voinenet.ru/antivoennoe-dvizhenie/antivoennyi-klub/3423.html
        1. torrnado
          torrnado April 9 2013 21: 47
          -1
          All deportations are prepared long.
        2. ULxaw86
          ULxaw86 April 10 2013 08: 05
          -1
          I read on one of the Caucasian resources that Beria allegedly "cleared" the lands of Checheno-Ingushetia for the subsequent settlement by Jews. I can't give you a link, don't blame me.
  15. RPD
    RPD April 9 2013 13: 31
    +9
    Russia has overtaken monkeys in people to pull out. feed them to drink. know cotton technology? there the dough went no less than rockets. and they returned to heroin, donkeys and bays.
  16. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 13: 44
    -1
    Good day to all. An interesting article is really, a lot of writing is also true, but it is more like excerpts from history than the whole story, I will not argue with you, I do not want to convince you, you do not need this, I will only give a few facts ...
    Yes, Georgia was very difficult then, but definitely Russia saved Georgia from something bad, thank you for that. We love and value you, everyone, even you, those who are drowning in this bile of hatred, God be your judge ...
    There is no friendship under duress, from the beginning to kill humiliate to give at the mercy and then pick up everything, and for a penny, what do you call the mercy ??? Gortsy, pshavtsi khevsurtsi mtiultsi asked to bosom of Russia, at least before you write, at least read that do not be from the history of Georgia. Gortsy, has always been considered a bastion of purity and salvation of Georgia, and here you write asked to Russia, this is nonsense, which you yourself invented and believe ...
    1. Colonel
      Colonel April 9 2013 15: 47
      +5
      Read what NOT be from the history of Georgia ??? Where to read? Wikipedia ?, Shevardnadze's memoirs ?, Saakashvili's speeches? "Stronghold of the cheatstota" you say? When was Shevardnadze a stronghold, before or after 1991? When the Union was alive, artists from Tbilisi came to my city every year with a concert dedicated to the signing of the Georgievsky treatise. The concerts were wonderful, lots of historical references and all with gratitude to Russia. Even during the glasnost period, when Russia was sown with mud in Russia, the tonality of the concerts did not change. And then ... people really have a short memory. By the way, here you will not find "drowning in the bile of hatred", deep resentment for the Georgian people, yes. Your elite sold history for dollars. By God, if you followed the path of North Korea (in terms of independence and obstinacy) you would be respected more.
      1. bakso
        bakso April 9 2013 18: 32
        -1
        No, thank you dear, the Georgians do not need such respect. On account of earlier, before, and Lenin beat great, and now who is he ... ???
        At the expense of insults, 09-04-1989, 22 people were killed and strangled in the center of Tbilisi with shovels and gases, most of the women ...
        1992-93 The war in Abkhazia, killed more than 15 and about 000 refugees, probably 300% of Abkhazians did it all ...
        And last, 2008, treacherous Georgia attacked Russia ...
        And how many more should you list, who has more reasons for resentment ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        1. Colonel
          Colonel April 9 2013 20: 04
          +2
          Yes, we remember how a paratrooper ran for three kilometers after an elderly Georgian woman and, in the end, in front of the eyes of all the people, hacked her to death with a shovel. Sir, do you believe yourself? You don't need Russia, so get out. What does your country get from Russia and what from the "world community"? I do not consider it worthy to bring up any other arguments in my favor, just the behavior of your rulers and hedgehogs with them is very similar to prostitution.
          2008, treacherous Georgia attacked Russia ...
          , Pancake. Treacherous Georgia attacked our troops. You are no longer an interlocutor for me.
          1. bakso
            bakso April 9 2013 20: 32
            0
            In 1989, I lived in Tbilisi, all this happened before my eyes, my parallel classmate also died then, she was still 16, I understand you don’t believe in all this, not because it’s a lie, your true eyes are probably burning , live your truth, which you and the KURGINYANI CT and others will tell you (SVANIDZE too), just look, the time will come when you will be in our shoes too, I think my years will be enough for this, a crowd of idiots and cheers-patriots, you gnaw you grow stronger (or something else))), well, yes, I attacked your guys, and the fact that these same guys did nothing for 4 days, when the Ossetians destroyed 3 Georgian villages, is that okay ???? !!!! !!!!!! I felt sorry for everyone who died, it does not matter who they are, the Russian Ossetians poured Georgians, only how do you explain to the mothers of those Russians why they died, for which homeland, probably the motherland is just a handful of politicians who profit oppress their people, all the best and may God grant you health, to you and your loved ones, may they not once experience the experience of the Georgians, in the 17-18th century, in the 20th-21st centuries ...
            1. torrnado
              torrnado April 9 2013 21: 41
              -2
              Go to your room, rodent. What did you forget in Raska?
              1. bakso
                bakso April 10 2013 02: 33
                0
                )))I feel sorry for you)))
              2. Yarbay
                Yarbay April 10 2013 09: 01
                +1
                Quote: torrnado
                What did you forget in Raska?

                A man calling his country so is not worthy of respect !!
                Your Georgian opponent is more respectful towards your country than you !!
                1. Pancho
                  Pancho April 10 2013 19: 31
                  +1
                  I’ll support you. It's just an abomination to call your country like that, unless of course it is his country too.
                  1. bakso
                    bakso April 10 2013 19: 49
                    +1
                    You are right however ...
          2. TYSON68
            TYSON68 April 10 2013 20: 48
            +2
            The phrase: "A paratrooper ran for three kilometers after an elderly Georgian woman ...". An elderly Georgian woman was a running champion? Don’t hang on to your ears!
            1. bakso
              bakso April 11 2013 00: 34
              -1
              Tyson, what do you mean ???
              1. TYSON68
                TYSON68 April 11 2013 21: 47
                +1
                Do you believe that a healthy and trained paratrooper could not catch up with an elderly Georgian woman within three kilometers? Was this paratrooper on crutches or was he secretly wounded by Georgian human rights activists? Why does Russia need Georgia? For the sake of preserving Christian Georgia, Russia fought three Caucasian wars. They put a lot of people. What did you get from Georgia? A wash called wine, green tangerines and thieves in law. The US realized that it was more profitable for them to bring Georgia and Russia closer together - for the further collapse of Russia. Actress Sofiko Chuareli once complained: "It turns out that you have to pay for gas and electricity!" Georgia has an open border with Turkey. ...
  17. crambol
    crambol April 9 2013 13: 45
    +4
    Quote: Yarbay
    ... and where??
    When???
    More like a joke !!


    There was no joke. Remember Armenia.
    In 16 and 17 Adjara was captured by the Turks, who spread Islam among the Adjars. Tsarist Russia waged a stubborn struggle for the Caucasus during the 19th century. The best port of the eastern Black Sea coast Batum was annexed to Russia as a result of the Rus.-Turkish war of 1877-78. In 1918, the Turks again occupied Adjara, from which they left in 1919, and Batum was captured (hold on to a chair!) By the British, who in the same year passed it to Menshevik Georgia.

    PS And those who threw in the minuses should study (not teach) the history of Russia. Not everything was smooth in her. By the way, I recommend reading Paustovsky's story "Colchis"
    1. bakso
      bakso April 9 2013 20: 54
      -2
      Let me correct you a little. After the collapse of tsarist Russia, Georgian officers serving in the tsarist army began to return to Georgia. General Georgy Mazniashvili beat one of these.

      In April 1918 on the basis of the Brest Peace, the Turks occupied Batumi, from where, in violation of the agreements, they continued their offensive in the Georgian province of Guria, reaching Ozurgeti. Having mobilized the people's militia, partisans and units of troops, Mazniashvili April 6 inflicted a decisive defeat on the river Choloki.
      In June 1918 He was appointed Governor General of Abkhazia, where he participated in the suppression of Bolshevik resistance. At the end of June 1918 commanded the Georgian army in the first phase of the Sochi conflict, participated in the capture of Gagra, Sochi, Tuapse in October 1918. Appointed Governor General of the Tbilisi District. In November 1918 appointed commander in the war with Armenia, led the defense of Georgia from the advance of the troops of General Dro. Since 1919 served as Governor General of Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki, October 8, 1920. was appointed head of the Tbilisi garrison.

      In February 1921, during the Soviet invasion of Georgia he was appointed commander of the Soganlug group of forces, led the defense of the heights of Soganglug (a suburb of Tbilisi). In March 1921, after the Turks again occupied Adjara, the Georgian Bolsheviks turned to Mazniashvili for help. Sergo Ordzhonikidze said: "As a Menshevik general, you are outlawed and anyone can shoot you, so go over to the side of the Bolsheviks." Mazniashvili answered him: “I am not a Menshevik and not a Bolshevik general. I am a Georgian general. ” Mazniashvili urgently developed a plan of operation and on March 18-19, with the remnants of the Georgian troops, liberated Batumi and transferred the region to the Soviet authorities. Thus, he saved Adzharia from the fate of other Georgian lands remaining in Turkish possession today.
      Yes, then there were the so-called British, Georgians dressed in their uniforms.
      Sincerely ...
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 10 2013 08: 57
      -1
      Quote: crambol
      There was no joke. Remember Armenia.

      You would read attentively what I write)))
      Already * remembered * Armenia, where does Turkey ??
      Read my links above!
      Yes, the Armenian fascists never joked!
      Even the current president of Armenia, after the massacre of Azerbaijanis in Khojaly, in an interview with Da Vaalu said that the Armenians did it so that no one would think that they were joking !!
  18. Setrac
    Setrac April 9 2013 13: 51
    +4
    The "People's Liberation Movement" financed from London is the most popular and the most freedom-loving.
  19. Canep
    Canep April 9 2013 14: 50
    +2
    As for the occupation, Saakashvili, of course, got excited during the Soviet era in Georgia, the standard of living was probably the highest. Anecdote as an example: - "Gyvi son, go to study in Moscow, graduate from the institute to buy tebe black Volga - a human buddesh, and not graduate - you will drive red Zhiguli like a fool". And Stalin is also a Georgian, it turns out that a Georgian occupied Georgia. But I also did not like that in the discussion the Georgians are equated with this geek Saakashvili, he is Georgian only by name, his family is in Los Angeles, under the protection of the secret service. He came to power for the American grandmother democratically. Separate flies from cutlets.
  20. SPBOBL
    SPBOBL April 9 2013 15: 30
    +1
    Rodents under the USSR lived like a king’s binge ... right now, despite the mess in the media, there the house is partially controlled !!! if it was bad in Russia, we would not have problems with guest workers from Asia, the Caucasus, the Baltic states ...
  21. crambol
    crambol April 9 2013 16: 13
    -2
    Quote: Deniska
    The Caucasian peoples are very cunning !!! They are always for those with whom they are better.


    I do not see anything shameful in this. This is the way the nation survives.
  22. knn54
    knn54 April 9 2013 18: 43
    0
    Nothing personal, just numbers ...
    1. Official unemployment 15% (in Tbilisi 28% officially unemployed) In fact, unemployment in Georgia is more than 50%.
    2. The average old-age pension in Georgia is 1200 rubles per month.
    3. Completely destroyed central heating in all of Georgia, you have to heat your apartments with potbelly stoves.
    4. Almost destroyed agriculture.
    5. Completely destroyed its own production. Georgia exports everything from toothpaste to automobiles.
    The poor people who have no future. And just compare with what it was during the "occupation".
    On the territory of the Russian Federation, even the smallest national minority has the right to organize its own autonomy. There cannot be the slightest autonomy on the territory of Georgia ...
    1. bakso
      bakso April 10 2013 02: 55
      -2
      What autonomy are you talking about, all those republics that are part of Russia ???? Sorry, this is the land and ethnic group that lived on these lands and which they conquered ??? How is it not an appropriate comparison, or who should give autonomy to Georgia, the Armenians ??? Enough, already this loyalty has led the Georgians to this line, when 20% of the land has been occupied, here you are in Ukraine, give autonomy to Donetsk, there are also many Russians that you ??? Or let Russia create Armenian autonomy on the Black Sea coast, what do you ... ???
      1. TYSON68
        TYSON68 April 10 2013 20: 41
        +1
        For the liberation of the same faith in Georgia, Russia fought three Caucasian wars. They put a lot of people. There was a time when 80 thousand Georgians remained in Georgia, and in Tbilisi the majority were Azerbaijanis. Almost always Georgia was supported by Russia. Actress Sofiko Chuareli said after the collapse of the USSR: it turns out that you have to pay for gas and electricity! During Stalin's time, taxes were not paid in Georgia ... What did Russia get from Georgia? Wine branded slops, green tangerines and thieves in law. Now the US has realized that it is more profitable for them to give Georgia under the influence of Russia - this way it will do more harm to Russia.
        1. bakso
          bakso April 11 2013 00: 52
          -1
          Have you beaten a doctor for a long time ??? I advise you to go, or at least stop scooping up information from the yellow press or in the neighbor’s kitchen, what rubbish the Georgians beat 80, you believe it yourself, that is, what happens, at the beginning of the 000th century, Georgians 19 and by the end of 80 -th 000, (the population has grown 20 times, well, Georgians are great, China is resting)))) current or something ???))) do you even think with your head sometimes, it’s not only for eating food and drinking !!!!
          There were always very few Azerbaijanis in Tbilisi, and it was only during the GSSR, who lived well there, under any power and conqueror, it was the Armenians who even met with the keys ...
          You yourself made the slops for Georgian wines, I remember very well, they poured wine, Khvanchkara and Kindzmarauli in Ivanteevk, these are not Georgians !!!! In Ramenskoye there was a whole production of Borjomi, such a company "Lukoshkin-Ko", this is probably also Georgians yes ??? !!!!!
          And at the expense of your hypotheses about the conspiracy of America and Georgia against Russia, it’s very interesting. Let's count, Chechens about 1 mln. and they have everyone and everything in Russia, then the Georgians are about 4, yours, then all of Russia will groan ...)))
          At the expense of taxes, Stalin did not exchange his son for a captive general, and here you are writing about some kind of tax leniency for a single Georgia, Stalin created the Abkhazian and Adjarian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republics, the South Ossetian Autonomous Okrug in Georgia (thereby a time bomb) and you say that the Georgians lived at ease ???

          You are a sick man, Tyson, you need to be treated ... !!!
  23. Orang
    Orang April 9 2013 19: 00
    0
    Quote: crambol
    Quote: Deniska
    The Caucasian peoples are very cunning !!! They are always for those with whom they are better.


    I do not see anything shameful in this. This is the way the nation survives.


    And then the benefactors in the occupiers determine. Good way
  24. Orang
    Orang April 9 2013 19: 00
    0
    Quote: crambol
    Quote: Deniska
    The Caucasian peoples are very cunning !!! They are always for those with whom they are better.


    I do not see anything shameful in this. This is the way the nation survives.


    And then the benefactors in the occupiers determine. Good way
  25. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 17
    -1
    This is the opinion of the other side, the Georgian, I offer only part ...
    The St. George Treaty, “This is essentially a military treaty under which Russia and Georgia pledged to protect their borders from attack. The agreement is concluded between Russia and Georgia, as with an independent and sovereign state. Russia undertook to keep intact not only all the Georgian lands, but also to attach to them previously torn away. Any changes to the contract could be made only by mutual consent. ”
    Act 1783 turned Georgia into a vassal state. This is typical for the politics of Russia at that time, and the current one is not it? “Unification”: its “patronage” was based on submission.
    It was ridiculous to demand or even just wait from the Russian policy for special scrupulousness towards Georgia, since altruism and absolutism are incompatible concepts.
    The burning desire of King Heraclius to end the systematic calls of his people under the banner and give him a cultural life was the desire of Heraclius, which led to the signing of this treatise.
    However, the St. George Treatise became a source of disaster: “After its conclusion in 1783. “Peaceful” life in Transcaucasia gradually ceased. The highlanders' raids became more frequent, and Turkey and Persia threatened to devastate and ruin, moreover, all the surrounding khans “muttered”.
    Finally, Russian troops arrived in Georgia - only two battalions. But even before that, their commander under Heraclius and Solomon, S.D. Burnashev began to compose “Pictures of Georgia”, in which he noted that “in Kakheti, Kartalinia, in the cities of the Caucasus and in the territories of Georgians, Armenians, Greeks, Mohammedans, various mountain peoples dependent on Irakli Erivani and Ganja, in 1784. 42000 households were counted. ” (As if on purpose, the appearance of the Russian troops was marked by the fact that in January 1784 “it fell snow in Tiflis 3 arshins deep when there is barely noticeable winter in the snow.”)
    Heraclius was sovereign: "They obey him alone with servility, other ranks are very evil." The Ministers of Foreign Affairs and State Revenues were “always from the Armenians, for they reign their pride in the Georgian princely family not to teach their children and simple account”.
    Having been in Georgia for almost 4 years - since May 1783. until October 1787, and without doing anything substantial, Barnashev with battalions was suddenly recalled during the military operations near Ganja and on October 26 arrived in Vladikavkaz.
    There were several reasons for this: “In terms of the then war with the Turks, it was not proposed to act against the enemy from the Caucasus; then, since the entry of Russian troops, Heraclius lost many of his allies.
    The Russo-Turkish war began, why in this case, the Russian troops were withdrawn from Georgia? After all, a convenient moment presented itself for the execution of one of the points of the St. George Treatise and the return of at least part of the Georgian lands.
    An extensive note by Tsar Kartalinsky (Georgian), Catherine the 2nd read:
    “An impartial light will see when all this incident will be presented to him, that when our side was preceded by sincerity, moderation and peacefulness, on the contrary, with Turetskaya treachery and arrogance accompanied all this power of actions.”
    At the end of the reading of the note, the empress declared, “that, of course, she loves the world very much, knows the duties of a tratate, but in this case she can no longer heed any suggestions.” In order not to include Georgia’s demand for Turkey to return the Tao and the Akhaltsikhe Territory to Russia, Russia wanted to have free hands and pronounce “benefits” for itself, not Georgia. Moreover, “wanting to delay the war, the Russian government found it possible not to insist on recognizing the protectorate of Russia over Georgia anymore”, i.e. in fact, without stating an ally about it, the George Treatise unilaterally torn apart. These are explained by the withdrawal of Russian troops from their Georgia.
    Heraclius did not want to let go of the Russian army. For him, their way out is like thunder from a clear sky. Omar Khan sprinkled threats against Georgia.
  26. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 20
    0
    The St. George Treaty, “This is essentially a military treaty under which Russia and Georgia pledged to protect their borders from attack. The agreement is concluded between Russia and Georgia, as with an independent and sovereign state. Russia undertook to keep intact not only all the Georgian lands, but also to attach to them previously torn away. Any changes to the contract could be made only by mutual consent. ”
    Act 1783 turned Georgia into a vassal state. This is typical for the politics of Russia at that time, and the current one is not it? “Unification”: its “patronage” was based on submission.
    It was ridiculous to demand or even just wait from the Russian policy for special scrupulousness towards Georgia, since altruism and absolutism are incompatible concepts.
    The burning desire of King Heraclius to end the systematic calls of his people under the banner and give him a cultural life was the desire of Heraclius, which led to the signing of this treatise.
    However, the St. George Treatise became a source of disaster: “After its conclusion in 1783. “Peaceful” life in Transcaucasia gradually ceased. The highlanders' raids became more frequent, and Turkey and Persia threatened to devastate and ruin, moreover, all the surrounding khans “muttered”.
    Finally, Russian troops arrived in Georgia - only two battalions. But even before that, their commander under Heraclius and Solomon, S.D. Burnashev began to compose “Pictures of Georgia”, in which he noted that “in Kakheti, Kartalinia, in the cities of the Caucasus and in the territories of Georgians, Armenians, Greeks, Mohammedans, various mountain peoples dependent on Irakli Erivani and Ganja, in 1784. 42000 households were counted. ” (As if on purpose, the appearance of the Russian troops was marked by the fact that in January 1784 “it fell snow in Tiflis 3 arshins deep when there is barely noticeable winter in the snow.”)
    Heraclius was sovereign: "They obey him alone with servility, other ranks are very evil." The Ministers of Foreign Affairs and State Revenues were “always from the Armenians, for they reign their pride in the Georgian princely family not to teach their children and simple account”.
  27. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 21
    -1
    Having been in Georgia for almost 4 years - since May 1783. until October 1787, and without doing anything substantial, Barnashev with battalions was suddenly recalled during the military operations near Ganja and on October 26 arrived in Vladikavkaz.
    There were several reasons for this: “In terms of the then war with the Turks, it was not proposed to act against the enemy from the Caucasus; then, since the entry of Russian troops, Heraclius lost many of his allies.
    The Russo-Turkish war began, why in this case, the Russian troops were withdrawn from Georgia? After all, a convenient moment presented itself for the execution of one of the points of the St. George Treatise and the return of at least part of the Georgian lands.
    An extensive note by Tsar Kartalinsky (Georgian), Catherine the 2nd read:
    “An impartial light will see when all this incident will be presented to him, that when our side was preceded by sincerity, moderation and peacefulness, on the contrary, with Turetskaya treachery and arrogance accompanied all this power of actions.”
    At the end of the reading of the note, the empress declared, “that, of course, she loves the world very much, knows the duties of a tratate, but in this case she can no longer heed any suggestions.” In order not to include Georgia’s demand for Turkey to return the Tao and the Akhaltsikhe Territory to Russia, Russia wanted to have free hands and pronounce “benefits” for itself, not Georgia. Moreover, “wanting to delay the war, the Russian government found it possible not to insist on recognizing the protectorate of Russia over Georgia anymore”, i.e. in fact, without stating an ally about it, the George Treatise unilaterally torn apart. These are explained by the withdrawal of Russian troops from their Georgia.
    Heraclius did not want to let go of the Russian army. For him, their way out is like thunder from a clear sky. Omar Khan sprinkled threats against Georgia.
    Having received threats, Irakli the same day, October 4, sent another letter to Burnashev, in which he wrote: “From his lordship [G.A. Potemkin] we don’t need to know that the battalions are being withdrawn from Georgia ... Being already in extremes, we are all the more sad that we don’t know for what reasons such a sensitive misfortune befalls us ... You leave Georgia to the extreme despair of our subjects, at the same time that Omar Khan threatens an attack on our lands. ”
    Indeed, the decision of the government of Catherine the 2nd can be regarded as a betrayal.

    From March 1793 to July 1797, the main character of the correspondence between the Georgian and Russian governments was Aga Mohammed Khan.
    Heraclius requested that troops be sent to Georgia in the execution of the St. George Treaty, but the Russian government was silent, or referred to the high cost and difficulty of maintaining troops.
    At the same time, G. Chavchavadze pointed out in a note: “By virtue of the agreement of 1783. 2 battalions of the Russian auxiliary army were sent to Georgia, when the Ottoman Port declared unjustified war to the highest Russian, then we were hoping that the mentioned 2 battalions would be sent to reinforcements and other troops ... but even these two battalions left Georgia at the right time, we were left alone against our enemies. ”
    In response, silence, silence, silence. And at that time there was a conversation with the deaf ...
    In July, Chavchavadze again asked Bezborodko: “All the same, I ask you to notify me exactly: will the highest Russian court deign, by virtue of its obligations under the treaty, to give us help in defense, or not?”
    Queen Darejan in a letter of July 6 tearfully begged the empress to “take pity on that many Christians”.
    On August 29, Heraclius notified the Russian court that Agi Mohammed Khan had occupied the Erivan Khanate, which has belonged to Georgia for the 45th year, and all this is recognized including and the Persians.
  28. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 21
    -1
    Irakli appealed for the imminent sending of troops to Gudovich.
    In his notes, Tsarevich Teymuraz points to 70000 troops near the Shah. Heraclius “only” - 2700 people and another 2000 from the Imereti king Solomon the 2nd. When Heraclius was the son of the vakhtang and grandchildren David and John.
    September 10 is the first battle. David with a small detachment, which included the princes Zurab Tsereteli, Otar Amilakhvari, Ivan Bagrationi-Mukhransky, John Dzhaparidze and Zakhary Andronikashvili, fought with the vanguard of the troops of Aga Mohammed.
    The battle lasted a long time, the Persians suffered damage and were thrown back. The next day, Heraclius himself came up against the enemy. Aha put behind him troops of hired Turkmens (6000 people) with the order to destroy all the Persians who try to escape from the battlefield.
    The battle began at 6 a.m. and at first went well for the Georgians. But the balance of power of 70000 Persians to 4700 Georgians played a role. John miraculously saved the life of Heraclius.
    The Persians broke into Tbilisi, whose defenders showed miracles of heroism. Even the theater artists, unarmed citizens, fought with the Persians. As one fell 300 Aragvians, without retreating and without leaving each other.
    But the forces were too unequal.
    By 4 o’clock the Persians occupied the Maidan and immediately began to rob and massacre the population. The people took refuge in churches and a Shiite mosque, but this did not save anyone. Men, old people and children were killed, and young men and girls were taken to the Soganlug camp. The Persians broke into the house of Garsevan Amilahwari, the king sent to Count Gudovich, and attacked his wife. The young woman killed two rapists with her own hand and was herself wounded by a dagger.
    All this is surprisingly similar to September 1993. in Abkhazia, in Gagra and Sukhumi. The agreement with Russia and its inaction, secret conspiracies with opponents, mass genocide, violence, with the small difference that in 1993. Russia itself carried out the capture of Sukhumi, and its citizens from the North Caucasus were engaged in looting, the mass extermination of the Georgian population. The genocide of the Georgian people in Abkhazia 1993 It was recognized by 56 countries of the world, condemned by the world community, admitted to the UN and OECA, and entered the black spot in the history of Georgia.

    Let us return to the history of the fall of Tbilisi and the St. George Treatise.
    This massacre of the Georgian population is one of the gravest consequences of the ENLIGHTENED ABSOLUTISM policy.
    Already on September 14, Heraclius announced the fall of Tbilisi. In his message, he could not resist reproaching:
    “We notified that Aga Mohammed Khan wants to go to Georgia, and about the places in which he had his stay. We believed in hope for the most gracious treatise, and every day we expected help from you, but we did not receive it. ”
  29. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 22
    0
    According to the St. George Treatise, Russian troops in count. Two battalions were supposed to be in Georgia permanently. But however, the troops were withdrawn, and Georgia was drawn into the Russian-Turkish war, thanks to this treatise.
    In 1796 Russia declared war on Persia, the main reason was that the Aga Mohammed Khan obstructed Russian trade on the shores of the Caspian.
    Heraclius repeatedly asked Russia for artillery, but even this relatively simple question was not resolved.
    The calculation was that Agu Mohammed infuriated the Russian-Georgian treatise of 1783. On the eve of the events of 1795. he turned to Heraclius with a letter in which he demanded “break with the Russians”.
    One thing worried King Heraclius in his last days. It turned out that the St. George Treatise, the conclusion of which he gave so much effort, was ineffective. GEORGIA EVERYTHING REMAINED IN DECISIVE MINUTES ONE AGAINST THE ENEMIES, HELPING SAME RUSSIA WAS MORE WORDY, SYMBOLIC.
    Irakli, having little faith in the help of Russia, but considering the Russian government responsible for what happened, asked him in view of the ruin of the country by the Persians, a million rubles “for the term which you will be pleased to appoint”, and in providing the loan he provided “his income and heirs for him his".
    Naturally, this was not done either.
    In 1796 Russian battalions returned to Georgia, led by Zubov and Rimsky-Korsakov.
    Although as soon as the next threat of Aga Mohammed Khan fell, the Russians immediately left Georgia.
    The triumph of Aga Mohammed Khan from the return of the Russian troops was indescribable.
    He immediately sent to various owners that the departure of the cowardly Russians is a fear of his Aga Mohammed.
    (!) And he sent Heraclius another firman:
  30. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 26
    0
    According to the St. George Treatise, Russian troops in count. Two battalions were supposed to be in Georgia permanently. But however, the troops were withdrawn, and Georgia was drawn into the Russian-Turkish war, thanks to this treatise.
    In 1796 Russia declared war on Persia, the main reason was that the Aga Mohammed Khan obstructed Russian trade on the shores of the Caspian.
    Heraclius repeatedly asked Russia for artillery, but even this relatively simple question was not resolved.
    The calculation was that Agu Mohammed infuriated the Russian-Georgian treatise of 1783. On the eve of the events of 1795. he turned to Heraclius with a letter in which he demanded “break with the Russians”.
    One thing worried King Heraclius in his last days. It turned out that the St. George Treatise, the conclusion of which he gave so much effort, was ineffective. GEORGIA EVERYTHING REMAINED IN DECISIVE MINUTES ONE AGAINST THE ENEMIES, HELPING SAME RUSSIA WAS MORE WORDY, SYMBOLIC.
    Irakli, having little faith in the help of Russia, but considering the Russian government responsible for what happened, asked him in view of the ruin of the country by the Persians, a million rubles “for the term which you will be pleased to appoint”, and in providing the loan he provided “his income and heirs for him his".
    Naturally, this was not done either.
    In 1796 Russian battalions returned to Georgia, led by Zubov and Rimsky-Korsakov.
    Although as soon as the next threat of Aga Mohammed Khan fell, the Russians immediately left Georgia.
    The triumph of Aga Mohammed Khan from the return of the Russian troops was indescribable.
    He immediately sent to various owners that the departure of the cowardly Russians is a fear of his Aga Mohammed.
    (!) And he sent Heraclius another firman:
    “THIS IS THE ORDER OF OUR MAJESTY TO THE SUPREME VALLEY OF GEORGIA HEREKLE KHAN! SO KNOW THAT THE EMPLOYMENT AND LIFE OF RUSSIANS ARE SALE AND PURCHASE OF FABRIC, COMMERCE; NOBODY NEVER SEE AT THEM USING SABERS, SPEARS, OR OTHER WEAPONS. THEY DRAWN AND ENTER THE BOUNDARIES OF THE COUNTRY OWNED BY US. BY OUR HIGH MIND, WE DECIDED TO PUNISH AND DESTROY THEM, AND THEREFORE, OUR HAPPY BANNERS MOVED AT THEM. When the Russians saw our banners, they instantly returned to their despised places ...
    OUR KINGDOM DOORS ARE OPEN FOR YOUR DESIRE, AND ACCORDING TO OUR DESIRE, YOU MUST SERVE US: OR YOU, OR ONE OF YOUR SONS, WITH FULL HOPE THEY ARE FIRST, YOUR ARE YOUR BEFORE.
  31. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 27
    -2
    When Aga Mohammed moved once again to Tbilisi, Irakli asked Emperor Paul not to recall 4000 soldiers from the withdrawal battalion from Georgia. Emperor Paul ignored this request.
    But then an event happened, which no one could count on then, with the plot Aga Mohammed Khan was killed.
    Heraclius probably sighed when he learned about the death of Aga Mohammed.
    RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS ALREADY WERE FAR AWAY BEYOND THE CAUCASIAN RIDGE AND THEIR THROWS CAN BE ENTERED IN THE BOOK OF GUINNESS RECORDS FOR SPEED INDICATORS. Prince Chavchavadze spoke.
    Emperor Paul was killed, also in the conspiracy.
    Russia began the active colonization of Georgia and the destruction of the state.
    In order to correctly understand the Georgian position at this stage and in subsequent years, we must remember that neither the Persians, nor the Arabs, nor the Romans, nor the ancient Greeks, nor other conquerors, even the Mongols (!), Conquering Georgia, did not deprive it of autonomy, those. the right to decide their own internal affairs. She was required a tribute, or participation in the war on the side of the victors, or for example loyal neutrality, but in the prerogative of the Georgian kings the solution to their internal problems remained. THOSE. WITH YOUR CHARTER IN ANOTHER MONASTERY, NO ONE WITHOUT EVEN, EVEN MONGOLS.
    Georgia has not lost the status of a separate state, even if it is a part of another power.
    NOW THE GEORGIANS FOUND THE FIRST TIME FACING - WITH THE VOLUNTARY IMPLEMENTATION FOR THE UNION AND VASALISM - WITH THE MOST HARDEST IMPACT, which they have ever had to endure:
    Georgia was transformed from a State with its sovereign, albeit deprived of its right, into a province, into a province, into a purely administrative unit. And THE RULING DYNASTY IN GEORGIA HAD PRESENTED 1700 years!
    This hurt the pride of the Georgians, whose centuries-old history - from the 7th century BC (!) And until 1801, two and a half millennia - is a struggle for their independence. From time immemorial, for states, such as Armenia, the change of overlord is a matter of political calculation or the existing balance of power, but this change is not fundamental.
  32. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 27
    0
    And the blow dealt by tsarism was not forgotten by the Georgians.
    This is the explanation of the strange at first glance contradiction in which the Georgians, as if seeking an alliance with Russia and having achieved it, suddenly found themselves offended. They wanted union, not subservience.
    Count Dubrovin, analyzing the management system introduced by the tsarist government, points out: “When I personally reviewed the possessions of the local land, I met a lot of unrest and abuse on the part of our image in these administrations and the displeasure of the people.” The growth of discontent grew.
    One of the founders of the Communist Party spoke directly and frankly about this fact: “This accession was by no means voluntary, on the contrary it was a real violent act, or, more correctly, a whole series of violent acts, accompanied, on the one hand, by deception, hypocrisy and falsehood, and on the other, brutal bloody wars. “Voluntary joining” of Georgia to Russia, WHAT THE LEGAL GUARDIANS OF SELF-POWER SUPPORT A WHOLE CENTURY TROUBLED FOR THE WHOLE WORLD - JUST TALES. This “affiliation” and its consequences with fire and sword are inscribed in the history of Georgia. ”
    Chuvchavadze writes that the Thuletins during the proceedings on the Georgian Military High Road were killed with the shovels of a security captain, whose inhumanity brought them to a similar crime.
    The rebellious Georgian highlanders left a unique document, which outlined the motives that forced them to take up arms:
    1. In the unbearable cold, they forced us from Stepaststsminda to Ananauri to rake terrible snow and clear the road.
    2. On the same road we made, dirt formed; we were forced to cut brushwood and throw it into this mud; in this brushwood sent in such a way, the foot of the Cossack horse was tied up, and for this they began to beat us with a whip and killed 2 people - Gudamakar Chokheli and lagazze Jaunardze.
    3. It snowed; to clear the road, we were driven at a time when the blockage fell, threatening certain death. The blockage started and nearly crushed us, but Timothy drove us again, pounding with a saber; when the blockage passed, Timothy and three of ours were crushed.
    4. 80 soldiers and 12 Cossacks came; they demanded 14 cattle a day for their food, oil and cheese, whatever they got.
    5. Two women were harnessed to a yoke and tied up a sled, and soldiers from behind drove women with lashes ...
  33. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 27
    0
    Through the above oppressions, we asked God to strengthen the invincible army in Georgia, now we ask that we be absorbed in some kind of sudden misfortune. We all, for one, settled on the fact that if no other misfortune befalls us in order to rid us of unbearable sorrow, light our houses, wives, children with our own hands and rush ourselves and burn up like that. In one Mtiuletiya, 23 people died from beating, among other reasons.
    This eloquent document explains the changing mood in Georgia. Let us recall how joyfully we met: the Russians seemed deliverers and friends. It is amazing how history repeats itself, as if you were writing not about the history of Georgia of the last century, but about the history of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, of which I am an eyewitness.
    The Georgians said - not one Georgian, or even a mountain barbarian, would not have harnessed a woman in a sled and would not have ridiculed an old man or a child. But the Russians do it.
    The kingdom itself was given the name Georgia. Not only turned into a province, but also deprived the country of its name.
    Just as Siberia and the Urals are parts of a whole called Russia, so Kartaliniya, Kakheti, Imereti, Mengrelia, Guria, Abkhazia, Adjara, Svaneti are parts of one national organism called Sakartvelo (from the word “Kartveli” - Georgian)
    Georgia, this is a purely Russian name, it is not clear where it came from. In ancient times, the country was called Iberia, or Iberia; then some European guides, named after its main saint George, the Tatars and Turks - Gurdzhistan.
    General Lazarev reported to the government:
    “The Georgian state, which had a centuries-old history, ceased to exist. Tsarist Russia destroyed Georgian self-government and instead established its own military-bureaucratic regime.
    The courts acted according to the laws of Russia. 5 districts were created where Russian officers were placed.
    The new government was alien and unacceptable to the Georgians. It supplanted the Georgian language from political life and neglected the mores and customs of the local population.
  34. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 28
    -1
    Describing the royal system, Marx wrote:
    “But isn't the Russian government machine the same as military occupation, in which civilian power and the legal hierarchy are organized on a military basis and which the people have to pay for?”
    On April 19, the governor in the Caucasus, Lazarev, arrived early in the morning to Maria Georgievna (the last tsarina of Georgia), who before that was not disposed to him “for various insults inflicted on her in cases that were then encountered in her situation”. Lazarev arrived to forcibly send the queen to Russia, which was practiced at that time by the Russian authorities. She answered Lazarev: "Before I take my life, than go to Petersburg." He went out to order the queen to be bound and shackled, and when he returned he was killed by a dagger in the stomach. Maria hit him so hard that the tip of the dagger came out on the other side. Then with all the force in the face. “The one who plays on my misfortune is worthy of such a death,” as if she said.
    Politically, the blow inflicted by the last Queen of Georgia showed firsthand the full degree of “voluntariness” with which her country was annexed to Russia. The violence was answered with violence, and the fact that the blow was struck by a female hand only emphasizes the intensity of passions in those days.

    PS All these are few examples of Russia's “defense” of Georgia from Persians. The claim of gratitude that “If it weren’t for Russia, the Turks would have destroyed you” is unreasonable and wrong. For it comes from the lips of people who are not competent and know little. For all the time, starting from the time of the St. George Treatise, Russia didn’t hit a finger to protect the Georgian people and Georgia. And with the weakening of Persia and Turkey, it itself occupied Georgia. Where for the first time the Georgian state was abolished and turned into the province of Russia, and the name Georgia ceased to exist. Districts and counties appeared, Tiflis province, Kutaisi province, Sukhumi military district. Neither the Turks, nor the Persians, nor the Romans, nor the Tamerlane, nor the Mongols, nor the Greeks, did anybody do this. Nobody except the Russian Empire. The Georgian state, whose statehood is estimated from the 7th century BC. , i.e. 2700 years old ceased to exist in 1801. (for comparison, Jewish statehood, which is considered one of the oldest statehoods 100 years younger)
  35. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 19: 29
    -2
    Moderator, I ask you, although opinions differ from yours, please do not erase ...
    I know that the above is not to the liking of many here, but it is logical and correct when there is an opportunity to listen to both sides ...
    1. torrnado
      torrnado April 9 2013 21: 43
      0
      And it’s also logical and right to live in your own country, and not with the invaders, where jo ... warmer - this is the most correct and fair. We are not striving for something at home, why would we suddenly? In Rodent is not as trustworthy as in Raska?
      1. bakso
        bakso April 10 2013 02: 36
        0
        Georgians have always lived in the Caucasus, live and will live, dear ask you do not wake up ...)))
    2. stas
      stas April 9 2013 23: 21
      0
      Bakso, all that you wrote prove one truth (from Saakashvili) - "Do not do good to a Georgian, you will not get evil from him."
      1. bakso
        bakso April 10 2013 02: 38
        -1
        You yourself often do good, or before you do anything, ask who he is by nation ????
  36. bakso
    bakso April 9 2013 20: 53
    0
    Quote: crambol
    In 1918, the Turks again occupied Adjara, from which they left in 1919, and Batum was captured (hold on to a chair!) By the British, who in the same year passed it to Menshevik Georgia.


    Let me correct you a little. After the collapse of tsarist Russia, Georgian officers serving in the tsarist army began to return to Georgia. General Georgy Mazniashvili beat one of these.

    In April 1918 on the basis of the Brest Peace, the Turks occupied Batumi, from where, in violation of the agreements, they continued their offensive in the Georgian province of Guria, reaching Ozurgeti. Having mobilized the people's militia, partisans and units of troops, Mazniashvili April 6 inflicted a decisive defeat on the river Choloki.
    In June 1918 He was appointed Governor General of Abkhazia, where he participated in the suppression of Bolshevik resistance. At the end of June 1918 commanded the Georgian army in the first phase of the Sochi conflict, participated in the capture of Gagra, Sochi, Tuapse in October 1918. Appointed Governor General of the Tbilisi District. In November 1918 appointed commander in the war with Armenia, led the defense of Georgia from the advance of the troops of General Dro. Since 1919 served as Governor General of Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki, October 8, 1920. was appointed head of the Tbilisi garrison.

    In February 1921, during the Soviet invasion of Georgia he was appointed commander of the Soganlug group of forces, led the defense of the heights of Soganglug (a suburb of Tbilisi). In March 1921, after the Turks again occupied Adjara, the Georgian Bolsheviks turned to Mazniashvili for help. Sergo Ordzhonikidze said: "As a Menshevik general, you are outlawed and anyone can shoot you, so go over to the side of the Bolsheviks." Mazniashvili answered him: “I am not a Menshevik and not a Bolshevik general. I am a Georgian general. ” Mazniashvili urgently developed a plan of operation and on March 18-19, with the remnants of the Georgian troops, liberated Batumi and transferred the region to the Soviet authorities. Thus, he saved Adzharia from the fate of other Georgian lands remaining in Turkish possession today.
  37. Bosk
    Bosk April 9 2013 22: 47
    0
    Quote: Nagaibak
    Why, would they introduce a blood tax like the Turks did

    Well, why so dramatically ... For example, during the time of Peter the Great, there was a tax on the beard .... there were still rather curious taxes, and all for the sake of maintaining a strong army ... as they say there would be a goal and we would find a beard.
  38. pinecone
    pinecone April 10 2013 05: 54
    0
    Quote: Bakso
    Georgians have always lived in the Caucasus, live and will live, dear ask you do not wake up ...)))

    Well, get over to your historical homeland. Set up your own home. Here, why are you grazing.
    1. bakso
      bakso April 10 2013 09: 51
      0
      I ask you, without insult, you shouldn’t put your family slang into society ...
  39. Estray
    Estray April 10 2013 18: 26
    0
    It is true about the Georgians that Andrei Epifantsev correctly noted, the people were sticking.
  40. Estray
    Estray April 10 2013 18: 26
    0
    It is true about the Georgians that Andrei Epifantsev correctly noted, the people were sticking.
    1. bakso
      bakso April 10 2013 20: 22
      0
      Yes, such things stuck that you cannot keep up with us, you have to stick your nose everywhere ...
  41. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 10 2013 19: 10
    +1
    Gentlemen, citizens, comrades! Maybe stop verbiage !? Why impersonate experts in truth and a corrupt story that everyone understands through their prism. We endured the Great War, due to the fact that we were together and united. Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians ... After decades, thanks to the newly arrived Judas in each of the peoples, they began to think about their significance, as thin women in the bazaar remember who did something wrong, did wrong. Only one side remains the winner - the United States of America and others like them !!! The brilliantly conducted CIA operation to decompose a potential adversary. The greatness of a nation depends on its size and cohesion. And we all, including the individual ones, are slowly dying. And living spaces and resources are attractive for the afflicted. They will wait some more time, and then they don’t need to fight, they assimilate that they are Russian, that Georgians, that the Baltic states.
    1. bakso
      bakso April 10 2013 20: 20
      0
      In something you are right, I ask only one thing, do not look for the guilty and scapegoats, you do not have to pass off your weakness as someone else's strength, you have to admit your mistakes and try to start a friendship from scratch. Look at how many conflicts are in the territory of the post-Soviet republics, and everywhere Russia is a factor of tension (no need to sulk and take offense at these words) leave others alone, they will sort out their claims to each other, it's time for Russia to seek friends not on Mars but a little closer, but what happens, friends are only the army and navy ??? I do not remove responsibility for the republics, but there are enough imperial ambitions, it’s time to be friends until at all ... talking with each other ...
      PS
      Even St. Seraphim of Sarov warned in his will, do not fight with Georgia ...
  42. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 10 2013 21: 13
    +1
    Initial positions for all close are universal concepts: mind, honor, conscience and desire to do good !!!
    Work for the good and live in harmony with Nature, we have one for all. Do no harm.
  43. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 11 2013 09: 06
    0
    But by and large, everyone should live on their own land! and not parasitize on the writings of others.
  44. bakso
    bakso April 11 2013 10: 01
    0
    Eugene, please, please specify, live in their historical lands or conquered ????
  45. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b April 11 2013 19: 52
    0
    I understand the background of your question dear Bakso As in any differential equation there can be n-th number of answers for every taste. In general, I meant the land where I was born, grew up, where the graves of ancestors are located, regardless of nationality. To manipulate the history, I think the task is thankless, since this "girl" is for sale, written to please someone from the ruling circles. Exactly how real events are hiding and, most importantly, their motives. Once I was interested in antique sea piracy - there really was a knot, a plexus of all branches of peoples. Where are we all to them. By the way, the Caucasian knot also had powerful migration flows under the influence of that element, and not only that. All the best to you !!!
  46. bakso
    bakso April 12 2013 01: 28
    0
    It is difficult to tell the deaf when he still does not see anything ...
    All the blessings you are sinless, I do not refuse to communicate, I just do not see the point, yes you are right, you can discuss a lot and for a long time, you just have your truth besides which you no longer recognize anything, I will not convince you.
  47. Mountain diver
    Mountain diver 8 March 2014 00: 00
    0
    Quote: Bakso
    I know all the same thing happened in Abkhazia, 92-93 years ...
    I also know that there would be no war between Azerbaijan-Armenia, there would be another, Georgian-Armenian war, now they are silent, they know that if they fight with the Georgians, then not Russia and not all their diaspora abroad will save them ...

    My grandfather fought under the command of Yudenich and called the Georgians, unlike the Armenians, cowards, so that I wouldn’t have any questions for 51 years.