But the Sikorskys knew how to make helicopters...

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But the Sikorskys knew how to make helicopters...

Yes, indeed, today there are such passions blazing around helicopters in the USA that willy-nilly you start thinking about the fact that they evaluate what was done before very poorly. And a lot was done…

Not long ago there was an article about how the US Air Force preferred a Boeing product to the clearly more advanced Sikorsky Defiant. Well, yes, probably behind-the-scenes negotiations, lobbying and all that. Sikorsky knew how to make machines, both winged and rotary-wing.



It is not for nothing that it is in the plural: services to the world aviation Sergei Igorevich Sikorsky may be less than Igor Ivanovich, but only a complete layman would not appreciate them: 37 years of design experience at United Aircraft/United Technologies and Sikorsky Aircraft is, excuse me, a lot. In 1992, Sergei Igorevich retired from the position of vice president for special projects, but he was not allowed to leave so easily, he remains in work as a consultant.

So – Sikorskys!


Speaking about the past competition and the victory of a strange transport rotorcraft and an unclear prospect of armament, which we discussed in detail here: The non-assault aircraft that will destroy the Sikorsky company cannot help but cause surprise.

And the point here is absolutely not that the Sikorskys are our compatriots, yes, the elder was a citizen of the Russian Empire and left quite soberly after the revolution. And he did the right thing, as much as the gentlemen Bolsheviks "left" for nothing in the aviation environment, and especially in its design part, then Igor Ivanovich, who was awarded with the awards of the last emperor, really had nothing to catch except a bullet.

I am very sorry that one of the galaxy of the most brilliant people who created history aviation, went to the other end of the world and there put all his talent into the service of another state. And throughout its career, Sikorsky Aircraft offered very modern and effective machines, from the H-5/S-51 Dragonfly to the UH-60 Black Hawk/SH-60 Seahawk.


But since all the recent buzz has revolved around a new multi-purpose helicopter designed to replace the Black Hawk, it makes sense to remind readers (preferably on the other side of the world) that Sikorsky Aircraft built not only transport and commercial aircraft, but also combat and reconnaissance helicopters.


For example, based on the experience of Vietnam, a reconnaissance vehicle based on a well-armored hull was very quickly developed and built.

The Airborne Armored Reconnaissance Vehicle (AARV) was a two-seat reconnaissance helicopter. It was intended as a successor to the Hughes OH-6 Cayuse and Bell OH-58 Kiowa helicopters in service with the U.S. Army.

After helicopters were introduced to the battlefield on a large scale in the 1950s and 1960s, it became clear that these machines could have a major impact on the course of war. At the same time, experience taught everyone that helicopters were inherently vulnerable, and measures were developed to make them more survivable. Since then, new tactics, high speed, a wide range of countermeasures, and even stealth technology have been introduced to varying degrees in various fields. However, the US attempt to create a protected helicopter that would essentially be a flying armored fighting vehicle was less successful. Here is its story, which began and ended long before the AH-64 Apache emerged as the US Army’s main attack helicopter for a very long time.

In 1967, the US military was sent to the Vietnam War, and helicopters played a vital role. Of the approximately 12 helicopters used by the US military in Vietnam, more than 000 were lost.


The Vietnamese military had demonstrated a high level of skill in crashing helicopters to the ground, and while American helicopters were burning in the jungle, manufacturers in the United States were looking for ways to create helicopters that would have a better chance of surviving both in Southeast Asia and on even more brutal battlefields.


Soldiers of the 3rd Battalion, 9th Infantry Division, U.S. Army, wait to board UH-1 helicopters on Reed Plain during an operation in Tan An, South Vietnam, January 1970.

That same year, Sikorsky Sr. was developing a new type of aircraft armor that would protect helicopters from at least large-caliber small arms. In Vietnam, helicopters were repeatedly fired upon when they landed in and out of "hot" zones. On the ground, they became targets for mortars or missile shelling.

Sikorsky's new dual-hardness steel armor was strong and light enough to be used as the basis for a new helicopter design.

At the same time that the company was working on this innovative armor, Sikorsky was developing his Advanced Blade Concept (ABC), which promised to create helicopters much faster than those using traditional rotors.


An Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle (AARV) model that combines the Advanced Blade Concept (ABC) with a heavily armoured fuselage.

The ABC was just one of many designs developed at the time to greatly improve the efficiency of rotary-wing aircraft, including hybrid helicopters that combined conventional rotors with a wing and some sort of auxiliary engine to achieve higher speeds.

Sikorsky's ABC was an alternative to such a helicopter and featured a main rotor with two contra-rotating propellers coupled with an auxiliary power unit for forward propulsion. The use of such a rotor design eliminated the stall problem that would otherwise limit the speed of conventional helicopters and eliminated the need for a tail rotor, a fickle beast that has been a source of headaches for helicopter designers.

For a heavily armored helicopter, the ABC offered a number of advantages. The design was more robust and simpler than a conventional helicopter configuration, allowing it to withstand damage better, especially since it lacked the highly vulnerable tail rotor and its transmission. High speed was less important, since an armored helicopter had to withstand small arms fire, at least to a certain level, rather than avoid it. Additionally, the ABC design was highly maneuverable, which was useful for actively engaging in combat.

Sikorsky began to consider two options for armored helicopters at once.

The first of these was the two-seat Aerial Armored Reconnaissance Vehicle (AARV). It was intended as a successor to the US Army's Hughes OH-6 Cayuse and Bell OH-58 Kiowa helicopters, which were purchased under the Light Observation Helicopter (LOH) program and used extensively in Vietnam.


U.S. Army soldiers work on an OH-6 helicopter that was shot down in Tay Ninh Province in December 1967 during the Vietnam War.

The AARV program was funded by Sikorsky and the Army over a two-and-a-half-year period. The Army Materials and Mechanics Research Center played a major role in helping develop the half-inch-thick, dual-hardness armor needed for the helicopter's frame.

Of the total weight of 6800 pounds (3084 kg), armor accounted for about 1800 pounds (816 kg).

Since this was a completely new technological approach, a lot of effort was put into understanding how best to cut, join, shape and finish the helicopter using this material. After that, a mock-up of the fuselage was made, which was then subjected to ballistic tests.


Scheme of the armored fuselage of the AARV reconnaissance helicopter

In its overall configuration, other than the ABC propeller arrangement, the AARV was fairly conventional and simple. The fuselage was angular, with a square nose and a faceted overall appearance. Although this design was later used in stealth helicopter concepts, it was used here for better protection from small arms fire. weapons.


This is the vision of the new Black Hawk.

While the main fuselage was made of dual-hardness armor, the tail unit was made of aluminum. The tail unit had an inverted-V configuration.

At 7,74 m long and 1,57 m high, the AARV was even more compact than the diminutive OH-6, which was 9,24 m long and 2,47 m high to the top with the propeller.


AARV cross-section drawing

Unlike other company offerings, the AARV had no auxiliary power unit and was powered by a single Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 turboshaft engine. With 1 horsepower, it gave the helicopter a top speed of 175 km/h.

During the tests, the helicopter's hull withstood fire from a 7,62 mm caliber weapon at close range (300 m), and at longer distances (from 1000 m) it could not be penetrated even by .50 caliber (12,7 mm) bullets. In addition to the hull armor, the cabin glazing was made of improved ballistic glass "transparent armor". But as for large-caliber machine guns, it was generally a difficult task to hit such a relatively small device with a not very rapid-fire weapon.


AARV layout

The AARV was also to be armed with its own armament. This was accomplished by mounting a 7,62mm Minigun on a telescopic mount under the fuselage, while unguided rocket pods could be mounted on pylons on the sides of the fuselage.


Weapons options for AARV

Although a full-scale ABC model was successfully tested in NASA's Ames wind tunnel in 1970, the AARV project was not developed further because the Army concluded that the technology would be better used in a high-speed platform.

Sikorsky completed work on a high-speed demonstration aircraft ABC, which was named S-69, but it, too, was not put into serial production.


A Sikorsky S-69 demonstrator during Army testing as the XH-59 in 1981.

Meanwhile, the same "armored helicopter" idea that led to the AARV was used as the basis for another Sikorsky project, the Airborne Armored Personnel Carrier (AAPC). The Sikorskys had many ideas.


Various variants of the Sikorsky armored attack helicopters

The AAPC was essentially a scaled-up version of the AARV, built around an armoured, box-shaped cockpit that could accommodate 12 troops. The rotor diameter was increased to 12,2 metres, compared to the AARV's 10,8 metres. At least two different tail configurations were studied: an inverted-V design, in which the tail was attached to the rear of the landing skids, and a more conventional horizontal tail with vertical endplates.

Actually, the idea of ​​an armored box to which everything else is bolted as needed is not new. Sikorsky obviously closely watched the developments that were being implemented in his former homeland, so a helicopter version of Sergei Ilyushin's attack aircraft scheme - why not?


AAPC airborne armored personnel carrier fuselage mockup


Three-view drawing of the fuselage of the airborne armored personnel carrier (AAPC)

The AAPC was developed to the full-scale mock-up stage, but the Army was not interested in developing it further. However, the AAPC does make a very interesting comparison with the Mi-24 Krokodil, which was the Soviet response to a similar requirement, although it emphasized speed and firepower over protection and manpower.

AARV and AAPC have faded into oblivion, but the Advancing Blade concept has made a comeback many years later.

Sikorsky returned to the concept with the X2 demonstrator, which first flew in 2008 and was intended to once again prove the technology's effectiveness. ABC was again seen as a way to improve speed, maneuverability, and combat survivability of helicopters.


The X2, which became the basis for the S-97 Raider, which took to the skies in 2015


The S-97, in turn, paved the way for the promising Raider X, which many considered a potential frontrunner for the Army's Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) program, which sought to build a next-generation, high-speed reconnaissance and attack helicopter. The FARA program was canceled early last year.


The first flying prototype of the Raider X in a hangar at Sikorsky's West Palm Beach, Florida facility.

Meanwhile, the Raider X was subsumed into the larger SB-1 Defiant project, which lost the Advanced Long Range Attack Aircraft (FLRAA) bid to a project based on the next-generation Bell V-280 Valor tiltrotor. It was a high-stakes competition that, to the surprise of many experts, Boeing won.

It turns out that years of testing that demonstrated impressive speed, maneuverability, high performance, and the ability to fit all of this into a relatively small space were not needed by the US Army.

Ultimately, the AARV and its amphibious counterpart were doomed to become a relic of US helicopter history during the Cold War. But they played an important training role during a period of rapid advances in helicopter technology, highlighting ongoing concerns about how best to ensure combat survivability.

And here we can finish on such a strangely optimistic note: strangely enough, we are the ones who benefit from the fact that helicopter projects with Russian roots turned out to be unnecessary. It is, of course, a pity that the Sikorsky case is being suppressed, and openly so, but Russia is the one who benefits from this: the worse the US Army's planes and helicopters are, the better for us.

In general, gentlemen, you are on the right path. We approve in every way. More convertiplanes, autogyros, in general, anything but decent helicopters. The developments made by the Sikorskys can and should be archived under some pretext and give way to more innovative inventions. Naturally, with an emphasis on stealth and multi-billion dollar. To repeat another slogan of past years - more "Zumvolts", flying, swimming and diving!

And the United States' global dominance on the battlefield is assured.
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  1. -7
    29 May 2025 04: 15
    And the United States' global dominance on the battlefield is assured.

    This is how they “ensured” world domination in the exploration of the Moon for themselves - and they still cannot repeat what they have accomplished.
    * * *
    The most upsetting thing about Sikorsky's story is his migration to the United States and his becoming an American aircraft designer...But that's a completely different story.
    1. -19
      29 May 2025 04: 18
      Ross xnumx
      (Yuri Vasilievich)
      +1
      Today, 04: 15
      And the United States' global dominance on the battlefield is assured.

      This is how they “ensured” world domination in the exploration of the Moon for themselves - and they still cannot repeat what they have accomplished.
      * * *
      Hollywood made history for them. Now it is clear that the Merikatos did not have such technologies, especially since they still cannot.
      1. +9
        29 May 2025 13: 20
        In what sense?
        As I understand it, for the sake of propaganda, we are already talking about how “the Americans couldn’t”
        And the fact that they have the SLS launch vehicle and the Orion ship, created and made their first test flights (without a crew yet) - apparently they didn't tell you. As for us, a promising launch vehicle for flights to the moon hasn't even been created as a model yet.
        They had an orbital station SkyLab, not the most successful but it was there. It flew for 6 years. And it could be observed from the ground, and it was created on the basis of the RN stage.
        And then what? And then the global trend of falling production volumes and personnel competence, caused by budget cuts for scientific disciplines and worsening working conditions in engineering fields.
        But instead of recognizing the erroneous reforms that have been carried out in the industry over the last 35 years, which have led our cosmonautics (and any other pseudo-scientific production, electronics and pharmaceuticals there too) to such a hole. And no one recognizes it, this means that the population has a reason to ask the question "is it really YOU who should manage such industries of the country or even the country, maybe someone ELSE?". That is why instead of recognizing mistakes (and in some places deliberately accepting destructive reforms), it is easier to spread the story en masse (quietly, even through federal media) that "They weren't on the Moon."
        1. +3
          29 May 2025 16: 25
          There were over 1100 companies involved in the Apollo program. Many of them no longer exist. Try to create this conglomerate of companies again, each with its OWN technology and designs.
          1. -2
            1 June 2025 15: 28
            Why create them again? This wasn't a couple of years ago. The technologies and management methods are different. If you have brains and money, you can do everything in a new way. SpaceX made a reusable rocket, here... And captured the market.
      2. -3
        29 May 2025 13: 34
        Americans love to steal and appropriate, just like Jews, in one military museum there is a photo of Sikorsky, where it is written that he is an American designer, born in America, in the photo there is Sikorsky in a Russian uniform and on the cap is written Corps of Midshipmen of the Imperial Majesty. Russia. And so it is in everything, and their space is all German. Well, we have too.
        1. 0
          1 June 2025 15: 28
          Could you send me a photo from this museum? I'm interested.
          1. -2
            24 June 2025 22: 46
            It's in the book where ships cross oceans, about Sikorsky!!!
    2. IVZ
      28+
      29 May 2025 06: 33
      This is how they “ensured” world domination in the exploration of the Moon for themselves - and they still cannot repeat what they have accomplished.
      The decline in the competence of design, production, political and other organizations and personnel is a worldwide trend. The dominance of all-knowing and capable management in almost all areas is the curse of our time.
      1. 11+
        29 May 2025 08: 59
        Quote: IVZ
        This is how they “ensured” world domination in the exploration of the Moon for themselves - and they still cannot repeat what they have accomplished.
        The decline in the competence of design, production, political and other organizations and personnel is a worldwide trend. The dominance of all-knowing and capable management in almost all areas is the curse of our time.

        What does this have to do with it?
        You also won’t be able to repeat the construction of a steam locomotive using the drawings and process maps of 1913.
        You simply don’t have any information on the materials and production technologies that were used back then.
        You will need to completely redesign not only the locomotive itself, but also all the equipment, all the components, the entire technological process, the entire machine park, all the steel and materials. Almost from scratch.
        That is the reason.
        1. +7
          29 May 2025 09: 56
          The commentator above said that earlier money was needed to achieve a goal, to implement an invention, but now inventions have become for the sake of earning money. And this has significantly limited the flight of thought, experiments and progress. With today's capitalism and the existing "effective management" man would not fly into space at all, because it is unprofitable.
        2. +9
          29 May 2025 10: 47
          Absolutely right. I've been through something similar - they tried to fix a vibration stand made by the "sovnarkhoz". Yeah, we had a laugh. With modern equipment, they couldn't do anything.
        3. -1
          29 May 2025 13: 39
          They said it right - according to the drawings. But for some reason the penguins don't have the technological documentation for the lunar expedition devices. They lost it))))))
          1. +6
            29 May 2025 14: 17
            Quote: helicop-man
            They said it right - according to the drawings. But for some reason the penguins don't have the technological documentation for the lunar expedition devices. They lost it))))))

            Destroyed as unnecessary.
            I can tell you that with the NK engines for the Tu-160, it was absolutely the same.
            At Kuznetsov in Samara, they also lost all the documentation. In fact, it didn't exist. Purely by chance, they found some of it, apparently, in Vintai in abandoned premises. They took it there and forgot about it. They could have simply handed it in for recycling, but they really forgot about it.
            We have been searching and doing reverse engineering for almost 6 years. And this is with us. With the strongest system of technical archives.
            And they reported for a long time, for 10 years, that it was just around the corner, right now, right now.
          2. +4
            29 May 2025 15: 44
            Quote: helicop-man
            They said it right - according to the drawings. But for some reason the penguins don't have the technological documentation for the lunar expedition devices. They lost it))))))

            Easy. There is a classic story about technoarchaeology dedicated to one American oil refinery.
            In short, the new owner of the plant decided to optimize the technological process. And his specialists discovered with horror that in addition to the operating and maintenance instructions in the style of "the light will come on - press the lever" or "the screw should be unscrewed half a turn"There is nothing. Nothing at all - there are no CDs or TDs at the plant.
            The previous owner also had no documentation - the plant changed hands several times.
            We contacted the developer. It turned out that since the plant was built, the company had been divided, merged, reduced, expanded, changed subordination and moved several times. The archive was partially lost, and there was one half-empty folder for the plant.
            The problem was solved by finding one of the old developers. At one time, in order to avoid signing for the removal/removal of commercial secrets outside the company building every time he went to the site, he secretly copied the documentation for himself and went with copies, and made changes based on them in the office. In general, since then he has been left with a practically complete set of documents, which he saved for some reason. And then he had to secretly throw these documents into the archive and pretend to be a "find".
          3. +1
            29 May 2025 15: 51
            And what about reproducing the old paper and pencils? No, the Americans have lost the old drawing technology.
            1. -1
              1 June 2025 15: 32
              And this is very tragic. Not a single drawing board or set of pencils of different softness.
        4. IVZ
          +3
          29 May 2025 19: 08
          You also won’t be able to repeat the construction of a steam locomotive using the drawings and process maps of 1913.
          You simply don’t have any information on the materials and production technologies that were used back then.
          What does this have to do with it?
          Why do I need a steam locomotive, especially using 50-year-old technologies and materials? We are not talking about recreating the technology of that time. Do you really think that the managers and specialists of that time, having access to modern materials and technologies, would not have been able to implement this project? And what does it have to do with starting from scratch? There is already some experience, certain developments in other programs that can be used on a new, more advanced technological base. But it does not work. And the issue here is precisely the loss of competencies. Selection and qualification of performers, competent distribution and setting of tasks, timely control, etc., and not just cash flow management, puffing out one's cheeks and boasting.
          Here is the reason.
          1. -2
            29 May 2025 20: 20
            Quote: IVZ
            You also won’t be able to repeat the construction of a steam locomotive using the drawings and process maps of 1913.
            You simply don’t have any information on the materials and production technologies that were used back then.
            What does this have to do with it?
            Why do I need a steam locomotive, especially using 50-year-old technologies and materials? We are not talking about recreating the technology of that time. Do you really think that the managers and specialists of that time, having access to modern materials and technologies, would not have been able to implement this project? And what does it have to do with starting from scratch? There is already some experience, certain developments in other programs that can be used on a new, more advanced technological base. But it does not work. And the issue here is precisely the loss of competencies. Selection and qualification of performers, competent distribution and setting of tasks, timely control, etc., and not just cash flow management, puffing out one's cheeks and boasting.
            Here is the reason.


            There is no loss of competence.
            And everything works out.
            We just need to redesign everything.
            But no one really needs it.
            Repeat.
            And don't stupidly repeat: "they can't repeat the 60s"...
          2. +1
            20 August 2025 21: 47
            All this can be expressed in one word - degradation. If in the USSR knowledge was literally hammered in, and this gave the result in the form of competent personnel, starting from skilled workers and ending with managers, now the picture is sad.
        5. 0
          29 May 2025 23: 43
          Well, let's say the steam locomotive is not the best example. Today, any country with at least some metallurgical industry will reproduce it in a couple of years, and we still have a lot of them in reserve, sometimes they even drive, it's cool to watch, although in my childhood I saw them more often, in the 60-70s they were often used as shunters.
        6. -1
          30 May 2025 10: 57
          Quote: SovAr238A
          You also won’t be able to repeat the construction of a steam locomotive using the drawings and process maps of 1913.
          You simply don’t have any information on the materials and production technologies that were used back then.

          Of course I can. No problem at all. You've probably never had anything to do with manufacturing in your life) The only problem is that some units will be too primitive. Replacing them with better ones won't be difficult at all. Although, in general, this isn't a moon fight))
          1. -2
            30 May 2025 21: 17
            Quote: Mikhail3
            Quote: SovAr238A
            You also won’t be able to repeat the construction of a steam locomotive using the drawings and process maps of 1913.
            You simply don’t have any information on the materials and production technologies that were used back then.

            Of course I can. No problem at all. You've probably never had anything to do with manufacturing in your life) The only problem is that some units will be too primitive. Replacing them with better ones won't be difficult at all. Although, in general, this isn't a moon fight))


            You didn't understand. You are now obliged to repeat the locomotive of 13. Repeat, not do it differently. Not use modern steel, etc.
            All these Ali-Earth people who deny the lunar program always repeat the narrative and script: “Americans cannot repeat…”.
            It is precisely against this script and narrative that I write.
            No one can repeat it.
            We, too.
            I have written a lot of process charts. I used to have a very direct relationship with production.
            1. 0
              1 June 2025 13: 01
              Quote: SovAr238A
              You are now obliged to repeat the locomotive of 13.

              You have to... I wish you would stop trolling so stupidly and pitifully) The task is to build a mechanism using old drawings that would work and perform the task. That is, to fly to the Moon on a rocket again) If it turns out to be faster, easier and cheaper - honor and praise. The task is not to build "exactly" but to make a WORKING rocket based on old drawings.
              The use of the dumbest newspeak in the form of "narratives" and other words invented to make people with low-functioning brains seem smarter does not save the situation) The Americans have a task - to fly to the Moon. They supposedly have already done this. So, from the point of view of the feeble-minded, this now needs to be invented from scratch for hundreds of thousands of trillions and five hundred years. And from the point of view of an engineer, IF THEY HAVE REALLY ALREADY DONE THIS, it should take them 2-3 years and very modest money by today's standards) That's all.
              That's why everyone who has a brain in their head makes fun of their "visit to the Moon". If it were true, tickets to the Moon would be sold by now, and not more than a thousand dollars)
        7. -1
          1 June 2025 15: 30
          I don't get it. Does the loss of technology for producing boilers for steam locomotives prevent anyone from making electric trains with a speed of 400 km/h? It seems like no one is suffering.
    3. +2
      29 May 2025 08: 15
      It may well happen again when a new breakthrough engineering solution falls into the hands of others. Screws and propellers may very quickly become a thing of the past.
    4. 11+
      29 May 2025 08: 56
      Quote: ROSS 42
      And the United States' global dominance on the battlefield is assured.

      This is how they “ensured” world domination in the exploration of the Moon for themselves - and they still cannot repeat what they have accomplished.
      * * *
      The most upsetting thing about Sikorsky's story is his migration to the United States and his becoming an American aircraft designer...But that's a completely different story.

      And who can?
      Maybe we can?
      Repeat the space station? No.
      Repeat Buran and Energia? No.
      Just copy Falcon and Starship? No, that's not it either.
      What can we do? Why look for specks in others' eyes when we can't see the log in our own?
    5. +3
      29 May 2025 14: 36
      This is how they “ensured” world domination in the exploration of the Moon for themselves - and they still cannot repeat what they have accomplished.

      A private commercial company cannot repeat a program on which the Americans at one time (over several years) spent almost a quarter of their annual budget?
      Well, it's not much of an indicator of "they can't repeat it".
      We "can't replicate" the AN-2. Were its flights also edited in Hollywood?
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +5
    29 May 2025 05: 08
    The idea of ​​armor in the form of an armored capsule was also used by Ilyushin on the IL-2, as the author points out, plus Kamov's development of twin-rotor helicopters, which can be discerned in Sikorsky helicopters. Unlike Sikorsky's, KA-52 helicopters are in service with Russia and fight well. Everyone tries to use good ideas, there is nothing shameful in this.
    1. +6
      29 May 2025 07: 20
      Quote: V.
      The idea of ​​armor in the form of an armored capsule was also used by Ilyushin on the IL-2, as the author points out, plus Kamov's development of twin-rotor helicopters, which can be discerned in Sikorsky helicopters. Unlike Sikorsky's, KA-52 helicopters are in service with Russia and fight well. Everyone tries to use good ideas, there is nothing shameful in this.

      Measuring who put armor on an aircraft first is like measuring who put a cannon on a tank first... pointless... armoring the cockpit of an aircraft was invented by pilots of WWI when they put a frying pan under their butts, and by pilots of all countries, not designers... and anyway, why constantly measure who was first? A classic male measuring of the organ? laughing
      1. +7
        29 May 2025 09: 01
        ...comparing who put armor on an aircraft first is like comparing who put a cannon on a tank first... pointless...
        - You might as well call a horse in armor a tank. Before the Il-2, armor was hung on an already finished aircraft, which significantly weighed down its structure. Therefore, the armor of the Il-2's predecessors was weak. For example, the American P-63 Kingcobra had only 40 kg of armor covering the pilot and vital structural elements. The Americans called the Kingcobra a "tank destroyer", a direct competitor to the Il-2. The Germans used the Fw-190 as an attack aircraft. The armor weight for the Fw-190 A-5, installed in 1942, was 310 kg. Ilyushin was the first in the world to build a serial aircraft with load-bearing armored hull. Therefore, the total weight of armored parts of the serial Il-2 was 780 kg. Feel the difference. This is the fundamental difference between the armor of the Il-2 and the frying pan under the ass of the First World War.
        1. +9
          29 May 2025 13: 20
          Quote: Old electrician
          You might as well call a horse in armor a tank. Before the Il-2, armor was hung on an already finished aircraft, which significantly weighed down its structure.

          The world's first attack aircraft with load-bearing The fuselage armored compartment, which housed the engine, two-seat crew cabin and fuel tank, was a Junkers JI, which went into production in 1917.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_J.I

          Some design features:

          The front part of the fuselage, including the cockpit, was an armored box 3,5 m long, riveted from 4-5,5 mm sheets of chromium-nickel armor.
          Inside it were placed the engine, the pilot's cabin and the fuel tank, which served as the pilot's seat.
          The engine cylinders protruding beyond the gearbox were covered with additional armor shields.
          The armored hull was assembled from steel sheets with a thickness of 4 to 5,5 mm, completely covering the engine, fuel tank and crew cabin from below and from the sides. Later, the thickness of the armor plates was changed. The total weight of the armor in early modifications was 470 kg.

          And yes, Ilyushin's attack aircraft was, in general, a poor aircraft. The Air Force was not satisfied with its performance characteristics. In order to improve its performance characteristics, Ilyushin arbitrarily converted the aircraft into a single-seater (in his memoirs, naturally, he says otherwise, but according to the documents, he did so arbitrarily, and Deputy People's Commissar Yakovlev covered up his arbitrariness) and went to Stalin, who, apparently with the benevolent advice of not only the Deputy People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry, but also Stalin's adviser on aviation issues Yakovlev, convinced Stalin that the Red Army Air Force needed exactly this kind of aircraft, a "real flying tank". As a result, the decision to begin serial production of the Il-2 was made in early December 1940, when the single-seater Il-2 with the AM-38 engine had not even begun flight tests. The first flight of a single-seat Il-2 with an AM-38 engine (TsKB-55P) was performed by V.K. Kokkinaki on December 29, 1940. Two months later, on March 1, 1941, test pilot of Plant No. 289 A.I. Kokin took the first prototype of the Su-6 attack aircraft into the air. By April 1941, it was clear that the Su-6 significantly surpassed the Il-2 in its flight characteristics. For example, in April 1941, the Su-6 demonstrated a maximum flight speed of 510 km/h near the ground, higher than that of single-seat fighters. But I repeat, the decision to begin serial production of the Il-2 in early December 1941 was made personally by Stalin, although with the help of Ilyushin and Yakovlev, who convinced him.

          Throughout the war, the Il-2 demonstrated relatively weak flight characteristics and insufficient longitudinal stability, making it a poor "platform" for small arms and cannon armament. Attempts to arm the Il-1941 with 2 mm cannons, undertaken since 37, were unsuccessful. In 1943, the Il-2 with two NS-37 cannons was even launched into serial production, but it was soon discontinued; the aircraft was clearly unsuitable for 37 mm cannons.

          The Su-6 with 37 mm cannons demonstrated itself in tests as a stable "gun platform". Alas, during the entire war there was no opportunity to launch the Su-6 attack aircraft into serial production. Not even the version modified for the AM-42 engine.

          Photos of the Junkers JI and its fuselage armoured compartment are attached.
          1. 0
            30 May 2025 07: 42
            As for the Junkers JI, I agree. However, in general, the experience of the Junkers JI was perceived negatively in the West. The aircraft turned out to be overweight, with low flight characteristics and technologically complex. An aircraft is not a tank, making a streamlined body from rolled armor plate is not an easy task. Therefore, in the Second World War, the Il-2 had no analogues.
            You made me very happy with your revelation:
            And yes, Ilyushin's attack aircraft was generally a bad plane. Its performance characteristics did not suit the Air Force. In order to improve the performance characteristics, Ilyushin arbitrarily converted the aircraft into a single-seater...

            And further:
            But I repeat, the decision to begin serial production of the Il-2 in early December 1941 was made personally by Stalin, although with the help of Ilyushin and Yakovlev, who convinced him.
            - gee-gee-gee!
            It has long been known that Stalin chose the worst of the weapons models offered for his consideration, and shot the developers of the best models. I doubt that you came up with this nonsense yourself. I am curious, where did you dig up such a rotten original source in the style of Vitenka Rezun?
            I quote the order of A.I. Shakhurin No. 739 of 14.12.40/2/18 on the launch of serial production of the single-seat Il-2 attack aircraft at Plant No. 2, based on the type of the two-seat BSh-XNUMX No. XNUMX that had passed state testing, with the following changes:
            1) make the plane single-seater instead of two-seater;
            2) install the AM-35A motor instead of the AM-35;
            3) install a 12 mm thick rear armor wall;
            4) instead of two wing-mounted ShKAS machine guns, install two Taubin-Baburin (OKB-16) 23 mm MP-6 (PTB-23) aircraft cannons in the wing with a total ammunition load of 162 rounds...

            Where is there any information about the arbitrariness of Ilyushin, his patron Yakovlev, the AM-38 engine and 37 mm cannons?
            By orders of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry of January 7 and February 14, 1941, the single-seat Il-2 AM-38 was launched into serial production simultaneously at four aircraft factories No. 18, 35, 380 and 381.
            in a version with two MP-6 cannons with link feeding (150 shells for each cannon), two ShKAS machine guns with a total ammunition supply of 1500 rounds and 8 RO-132 missile guns.
            .
            Since March 1941, the Il-2 was equipped with two 6-mm VYa-23 cannons with 23 rounds of ammunition each instead of two MP-150s. The VYa-23 cannon designed by A.A. Volkov and S.Ya. Yartsev fought until the end of the war.
            In turn:
            Su-6 with 37mm cannons demonstrated itself in tests as a stable "weapon platform"
            ...
            Two months later, on March 1, 1941, test pilot of Plant No. 289 A. I. Kokin lifted the first prototype of the Su-6 attack aircraft into the air...
            - another hee-hee-hee!
            It is known that the first flight on the Su-6 was performed by V.K. Kokkinaki on March 13. From that moment on, factory flight tests began, which were completed at the end of April 1941. Who is A.I. Kokin and why on March 1?
            The first Su-6 was not a combat aircraft. The plane had no weapons, the total weight of the armor was only 195 kg. Naturally, in terms of flight characteristics, it beat the Il-2 in all respects. But why the hell was it needed without weapons?
            The combat Su-6 with the M-71 engine (2nd copy) was built only by June 10, 1941 and made its first flight on June 16, just 6 days before the war began. The armament consisted of 6 ShKAS machine guns and 200 kg of bombs. This is more than pathetic. Compare with the Il-2.
            The Su-6 model of 1941 was a single-seater, without a gunner. P.O. Sukhoi also acted arbitrarily, like Ilyushin?
            At the end of 1941, in accordance with the recommendations of the Scientific Research Institute of the Air Force of the Red Army, in addition to four wing-mounted ShKAS machine guns (6 rounds), two VYa-71 3000 mm cannons with 23 rounds of ammunition were installed on the second prototype of the Su-23 M-230 aircraft. In addition, the attack aircraft was designed to carry 10 RS-82 (or PC 132) rockets. The normal bomb load was increased to 200 kg (400 kg under overload).
            The armor was not included in the power set, overall the armor was weak and inferior to the Il-2.
            The M-71 aircraft engine was never fully developed by the end of the war and was only produced in prototypes. Therefore, even a small production of the Su-6 was impossible. Throughout the war, it was produced individually in different versions. Only by the beginning of July 1942, the armor of the Su-6 M-71 was increased to 660 kg, but it still remained weak. Based on the test results, it was recommended to make it like the Il-2. Simply put, in 1942, the Su-6 had to be completely redesigned. Nevertheless, on June 15, 1942, after eliminating the identified defects, it was recommended to put the Su-6 M-71 into a small series, and to make a final conclusion about the combat properties of the aircraft after conducting military tests. However, the aircraft was still not built in series.
            Taking into account the identified shortcomings, a single-seat Su-1942 with two 6 mm cannons was built in December 37. It was not submitted for testing, since in early January 1943, based on war experience, it had to be converted into a two-seater.
            In accordance with the draft design, the first two-seat Su-6 M-71F, converted from a single-seat, was officially transferred to the Air Force Research Institute on June 19, 1943 for state testing.
            The Su-6 M-71F passed state tests brilliantly and demonstrated outstanding performance. It was not mass-produced due to the lack of M-71F engines.
            On April 28, 1944, the Su-6 with an AM 42 engine and VYa-23 cannons entered state testing.
            In May 1944, state tests of the Il-8 heavy attack aircraft with the AM-42 engine were conducted. According to the test results, the Su-6 AM-42 was inferior to the Il-8 in most of its defining characteristics. As a result, it was concluded that it was inexpedient to launch the Su-6 AM-42 into serial production.
            On the transition from a two-seater to a single-seater Il-2. From 1931 to April 12, 1941, the USSR Air Force was successively commanded by innocent victims of political repression Ya. I. Alksnis, A. D. Loktionov, Ya. V. Smushkevich and P. V. Rychagov. The souls of the Trotskyists, fighters for the World Revolution, could not stand discipline. Therefore, the accident rate in the Air Force due to the human factor was outrageous. Just one example. On May 18, 1935, as a result of the openly hooligan actions of test pilot N. P. Blagin, his I-5 fighter collided with the eight-engine giant aircraft "Maxim Gorky" (ANT-20, MG), considered a symbol of the achievements of the Soviet aviation industry. All 48 people on board the ANT-20 died. The culprit of the disaster also died.
            The apotheosis of disciplinary insanity was the complete ban on performing and training aerobatics, introduced in 1940, which lasted until October 16, 1942.
            I don't know what Rychagov and his team were guided by when they demanded that the Il-2 be converted into a single-seater, but these demands were clearly sabotage. Stalin, Yakovlev and Ilyushin clearly had nothing to do with it. Ilyushin was categorically against it, but he was unable to defend his point of view.
            In 1942, on the contrary, a decision was made to switch from a single-seat to a two-seat Il-2. This time, Ilyushin was also against it. Apparently, he was guided by the interests of production. Nevertheless, on September 10, 1942, a decision was made to switch to a two-seat Il-2.
            Military tests of two-seat versions of the Il-2 aircraft were conducted from the end of October 1942 to January 25, 1943 on the Kalinin Front.
            State tests showed that in terms of its flight, technical and piloting characteristics, the Il-2bis was practically no different from the single-seat production aircraft of the same plant.
            Beginning in the summer of 1942, 1200 Il-2s were converted into two-seaters by military craftsmen. The conversions had a distorted center of gravity, which led to a deterioration in the longitudinal stability of the attack aircraft and made it difficult to conduct aimed fire from small arms and cannon armament.
            The center of gravity of the factory Il-2s was preserved thanks to the increase in wing sweep from 5 to 15 degrees. Therefore, the pilotability of the factory Il-2s did not change. Accordingly, the capabilities for conducting aimed fire did not change either.
            And lastly, in the 40s the concepts
            "platform" for small arms and cannon weapons
            did not exist.
            1. -1
              30 May 2025 19: 37
              Quote: Old electrician
              However, in general, the experience of the Junkers JI was perceived negatively in the West.

              The English-language Wikipedia entry, linked above, states: "The JI crews loved their aircraft, although its clumsiness earned it the nickname 'furniture van'... only 1919 JIs were built before production ceased in January 227. At least one was shot down by ground fire, by a French anti-aircraft machine gun firing armour-piercing bullets, although this appears to have been an isolated incident, as some sources claim none were lost in combat. Some were lost in landing accidents and other incidents."

              So who exactly "in the West" perceived the Junkers JI "negatively"?
              The aircraft turned out to be overweight, with low flight characteristics and technologically complex. An aircraft is not a tank, making a streamlined body from rolled armor plate is not an easy task. Therefore, in the Second World War, the Il-2 had no analogues.

              I completely agree with you, the Il-2 turned out to be overweight, with low flight characteristics and technologically complex. The welded monocoque-type supporting structure made of double-curved armor plates was technologically complex. An attempt to hide a water-cooled engine in an armored compartment made the aircraft overweight. Most other real alternatives, primarily the Su-2 and Su-4 short-range bombers, as well as the Sukhoi Su-6 attack aircraft, demonstrated (Su-2) or promised to demonstrate (Su-4 and Su-6) a much greater number of sorties per loss and greater combat effectiveness.
              You made me very happy with your revelation: - hee-hee-hee!

              Many people interested in the history of aviation are familiar with this revelation of aviation historian Oleg Valentinovich Rastrenin. You can get acquainted with it either through Rastrenin's books or through his video series on the TacticMedia channel:

              https://dzen.ru/video/watch/616632b4ec50f7027a68d00a?ysclid=mbaxfjrfsg156468788
              https://tacticmedia.ru/news/oleg-rastrenin-pro-sozdanie-letayushchego-tanka-il-2/

              Considering that you did not know about Junkers JI, you are obviously not familiar with the works of aviation historians, the late Vladimir Ilyich Petrov, and the living Oleg Valentinovich Rastrenin. You can start with the book: Perov V. I., Rastrenin O. V. "Stormtroopers of the Red Army (Vol. 1)" - M.: Aviko Press, 2001:

              https://militera.lib.ru/tw/perov_rastrenin/index.html

              It is known that the first flight on the Su-6 was performed by V.K. Kokkinaki on March 13. From that moment on, factory flight tests began, which were completed at the end of April 1941. Who is A.I. Kokin and why on March 1?

              I recommend that you read Rastrenin's article "Su-6 - the difficult fate of the "little" "Rook" published in the magazine in issues of the magazine "Aviation and Cosmonautics" No. 4 and No. 5 for 2020.

              "On March 1, the leading test pilot of Plant No. 289, A.I. Kokin, lifted the Su-6 M-71 ("81") into the air. The entire testing program was completed only by autumn. The aircraft was tested by A.N. Grinchik, M.L. Gallay, G.M. Shiyanov and V.P. Fedorov. The report on
              the results of the tests, Deputy Head of the Flight Research Institute, Professor A.V. Chesalov and
              The chief designer of the Sukhoi aircraft was approved on September 18. The overall impression of the aircraft was positive. According to the pilots, the ease of piloting of the Su-6 "resembles the American Seversky and Northrop aircraft." The aircraft is "unusually "dense" in the air and behaves well at high speeds," "pleasant to pilot, accessible in its simplicity for a pilot of average skill, not tiring in flight," "in its piloting properties and ease of control, it is one of the best modern aircraft." In terms of flight speed, rate of climb, and takeoff and landing characteristics, the Su-6 M-71 significantly surpassed the serial attack aircraft Il-2 AM-38."
            2. 0
              30 May 2025 19: 38
              It has long been known that Stalin chose the worst of the weapons models submitted for his consideration, and shot the developers of the best models.

              I don't see any point in discussing what you long known. You were not aware of either Junkers JI or the fact that Ilyushin converted the two-seater BSh-2 aircraft into a single-seater without permission:

              https://militera.lib.ru/tw/perov_rastrenin/05.html?ysclid=mbayudydqy762106018

              "On September 12, one of the newly assembled AM-38 engines with a modified reduction ratio (0,732 instead of 0,902) was transferred to Plant No. 39, which immediately began installing it on the BSh-2 No. 1 and converting the latter into a single-seat version without an air gunner (at the same time, the armor was reinforced on the rear hemisphere side and an additional gas tank was installed). The new machine received the factory designation TsKB-57.

              The conversion of the BSh-2 from a two-seater to a single-seater was solely the initiative of the OKB - there was no Resolution of the Defense Committee, or at least no decision to change S. V. Ilyushin's assignment, as well as no corresponding order from the People's Commissariat of Aviation Industry.

              The decision taken by S. V. Ilyushin was to some extent forced, since he and his closest associates could not help but understand that simply installing a more powerful AM-38 engine on the aircraft (without fundamental changes to the design of the attack aircraft), instead of the AM-35, would not quickly meet the technical and performance requirements for the aircraft.

              Everyone understood that such a replacement would not only increase the aircraft's flight speed and improve its maneuverability, but also significantly reduce its flight range due to the AM-38's higher fuel consumption (270–280 g/hp/hour, instead of 245–255 g/hp/hour for the AM-35), which was tactically unacceptable for the military, meaning that the aircraft would once again fail state tests.

              The refinement of the two-seater version with a new engine, which was still far from reliable, to the required TTT by finding internal reserves in the design of the machine would have required a lot of time and considerable effort. S. V. Ilyushin's desire to put the BSh-2 into large-scale production as quickly as possible was great.

              The fact is that during this period, a very difficult situation developed for S. V. Ilyushin due to the extremely unsatisfactory state of affairs with the development and serial production of the new long-range bomber DB-3F, which was a deep modification of the DB-3, which was already outdated by that time.

              The serial models of the DB-3F showed very depressing results during state tests at the Research Institute of the Air Force of the Red Army, falling far short of the level required by the military. The plans for the production and transfer of the new bomber to the Air Force of the Red Army by the NKAP factories were constantly disrupted."

              There is no date when the Ilyushin single-seat attack aircraft with an AM-38 engine and the Sukhoi single-seat attack aircraft with an M-71 engine made their first flights.
              The first Su-6 was not a combat aircraft. The aircraft had no weapons, and the total weight of the armor was only 195 kg.

              Again, read Rastrenin's article in the Aviation and Cosmonautics magazine, No. 4-5, 2020.

              "The attack aircraft's armament included 4 ShKAS machine guns (3160 rounds)
              wing, two synchronized ShKAS (1520 rounds) in the center section and 120 kg of bombs in the fuselage bomb bay. Two bombs could be suspended on the outer nodes
              FAB-100 or two VAP-200 air-drop devices. In addition, provision was made for the suspension of droppable external fuel tanks.
              The weight of the armor was 202,8 kg. Including 128,4 kg for the pilot's armor, 34 and 40,4 kg for the rear and lower armor of the fuel tank, respectively... It was proposed to increase the bomb load to 400 kg, to install two 23-mm Volkov-Yartsev cannons instead of two ShKAS (as required by the order of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry
              No. 462s of May 21, 1941) and 10 RO-132 (or RO-82) rocket guns, as well as
              to strengthen the aircraft's armor. The report concluded: "1. The Su-6 aircraft has good flight and aerobatic properties. 2. To fully assess the combat and flight properties of the Su-6 aircraft, it is necessary to install and test the cannon armament and external missile mounts."
              From September 25 to October 10, the first Su-6 M-71 without small arms (by decision of Sukhoi, the machine guns were removed from it and installed on the second prototype - "aircraft 82") underwent control tests at the Air Force Research Institute, where it earned high marks from military test pilots for its flight and piloting qualities. The tests were not completed due to the exhaustion of the resource of the M-71 engine installed on it. The aircraft was returned to the factory."
              I'm curious, where did you dig up such a rotten original source in the style of Vitenka Rezun?

              I hope you have already realized that what you know on the subject is mostly erroneous information and a set of myths and cliches. Although, of course, people are usually not able to perceive information that completely changes the picture of the world that has formed in their heads.

              I have provided links to books, magazine publications and Rastrenin's video series on the Tactic Media channel. You can study the information on the links, or you can ignore it and remain with the erroneous information baggage that you have now. You are completely free in which path to choose.
              The armor was not included in the power set, overall the armor was weak and inferior to the Il-2.

              The armor of the first flying prototype of the Su-6 was 15 mm armor plates of cemented aircraft steel armor covering the pilot from behind and below the front, 65 mm armored glass in the front, and 6 mm armor plates covering the pilot from below and from the side. Unlike the armor of the single-seat Il-2, such armor protection provided protection for the pilot from armor-piercing bullets of large-caliber aircraft machine guns, including the German 15 mm MG-151 machine gun, although not from a point-blank range.

              Taking into account the high speed and maneuverability characteristics of the Su-6, such armor protection would ensure the combat survivability of the Su-6 at the level of the combat survivability of the obsolete I-16 fighter used as an attack aircraft, and most likely higher.

              As statistics of combat sorties from the beginning of the war to the spring of 1943 showed, the I-16 was the most resilient domestic combat aircraft of the Red Army Air Forces. 143 combat sorties for one loss. See the article by O. V. Rastrenin "Ordered to survive! Part 4 On the issue of combat survivability of aircraft and the effectiveness of aircraft small arms and cannon armament" in the magazine "Equipment and Armament" No. 3 2015. Table on page 41.

              "...the low losses of light maneuverable attack aircraft (old-type fighters used as attack aircraft) compared to the single-seat armored Il-2 attack aircraft are explained by the presence of air-cooled engines, greater maneuverability and better capabilities for conducting air combat with fighters."

              Although I believe that no one is capable of immediately perceiving such a mass of information on the issue, designed to completely overturn the set of historical myths and cliches that you are currently operating with. But maybe you will succeed. Who knows.
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              3. -1
                1 June 2025 09: 41
                However, in general, the experience of the Junkers JI was perceived negatively in the West.

                The English-language Wikipedia entry, linked above, says: "JI crews loved their aircraft, although its clumsiness led to it being nicknamed the 'furniture van'...

                You will be surprised, but airplanes are designed by aircraft designers, not by crews who love airplanes. But aircraft designers were very critical of the Junkers JI, so it was not continued in the West during World War II.
                I don't see any point in discussing what you've known for a long time. You didn't know either the Junkers JI or the fact that Ilyushin converted the two-seater BSh-2 into a single-seater without permission.

                First of all. You are a little late in educating me politically. In the 60s, the magazine "Technology for the Youth" had a very informative aviation section. There I first read about the Junkers JI. The fact that I did not mention Junkers in the context of the Il-2 will remain a black mark on my biography until the end of my days.
                Secondly. As is well known, Russia is a country with an unpredictable past, and the word "historian" has long been perceived as a vulgar curse word. Therefore, unlike you, after reading the masterpieces of Vitya Rezun and others like him, I read other hyped authors with great suspicion.
                After reading your Rastrenin's pearls, I feel the same way about him as I do about Rezun and the like. I can't call him honest. Apparently, he either volunteered or was hired to concoct an advertisement for the Sukhoi Design Bureau. To do this, he contrasts the Il-2 and Su-6. Rastrenin throws mud at Ilyushin and the Il-2 as much as he can. It's disgusting how he passes off "the airplane's childhood illnesses" as the Il-2's irreparable shortcomings and Ilyushin's incompetence.
                I have immense respect for P.O. Sukhoi and his design bureau, but the Su-6 was built in several prototypes and there was no chance of launching it into serial production. No matter how much Rastrenin praised it. An airplane without an engine is not an airplane. The M-71 and M-71F engines were never brought to serial production, and without them the Su-6 could not compete with the Il-2. This was demonstrated by the 1944 competition.
                Rastrenin writes:
                The conversion of the BSh-2 from a two-seater to a single-seater was solely the initiative of the OKB - the Resolution of the Defense Committee, or at least the decision to change S. V. Ilyushin's assignment, as well as the corresponding order for the People's Commissariat of Aviation Industry, did not exist

                This is a very serious statement, but he has not provided a single confirmation of it. All the documents he cites indicate that Ilyushin build a single-seat attack aircraft. There is not a single hint in them that Ilyushin was the initiator of such a decision. The lyricism that Rastrenin spun around these documents is nothing more than blah-blah-blah, based on the ability to read the thoughts of long-dead people. The most important thing is that Rastrenin did not provide a single document about what exactly the customers - the military - wanted. Just don't tell me fairy tales about how such documents did not exist. Without them, all of Rastrenin's reasoning is not worth a damn.
                The idea that the attack aircraft should be single-seater is the idea of ​​innocent victims of political repression. Rastrenin really wanted to keep silent about this, but he could not, he writes:
                In accordance with the experimental aircraft construction plan for 1938–39, designers S. A. Kocherigin, A. A. Dubrovin and P. O. Sukhoi were issued tasks for the creation of single-seat armored attack aircraft with flight and technical characteristics better than those of the Ilyushin Il-2.

                With this phrase, Rastrenin refuted all the empty talk about Ilyushin's "arbitrariness" in creating a single-seat attack aircraft, which he had expressed earlier. From this phrase by Rastrenin, it follows that all designers were given the same assignment to create a single-seat attack aircraft. This is well known, and no one had disputed it before Rastrenin. Only the UO can issue an assignment for a two-seater machine to compete with single-seaters. Apparently, Rastrenin believes that all his readers are UO. He has a good opinion of you! You can put it in your little shrine.
                And the last:
                Most other viable alternatives, most notably the Su-2 and Su-4 short-range bombers and the Sukhoi Su-6 attack aircraft, demonstrated (the Su-2) or promised to demonstrate (the Su-4 and Su-6) a much greater number of sorties per loss and greater combat effectiveness.
                - Hee-hee-hee! Apparently, you don't have a basic understanding of aviation. The Il-2, Su-2 and Su-4 are aircraft of different classes. They have completely different tactics of use. They cannot be interchangeable by definition. Roughly speaking, comparing the Il-2 and Su-2 is as stupid as opposing a bomber to a transport aircraft on the basis that it can carry bombs. If you don't understand this, then what can we talk to you about?
                1. -1
                  6 June 2025 13: 18
                  Quote: Old electrician
                  You'll be surprised, but airplanes are designed by aircraft designers, not by crews who love airplanes. But aircraft designers were very critical of Junkers JI

                  Provide a link to the source of your knowledge that Western aircraft designers were critical of the Junkers JI. As far as I remember, you learned about this aircraft having a load-bearing armored compartment only a few days ago, from me.
                  First of all. You are a little late in educating me politically. In the 60s, the magazine "Technology for the Youth" had a very informative aviation section. There I first read about the Junkers JI. The fact that I did not mention Junkers in the context of the Il-2 will remain a black mark on my biography until the end of my days.

                  Actually, I am engaged in technical literacy. A little higher you claimed that "Ilyushin was the first in the world to build a serial aircraft with a load-bearing armored hull." And this, as you already know, is an erroneous statement.
                  Secondly. As is well known, Russia is a country with an unpredictable past, and the word "historian" has long been perceived as a vulgar curse word. Therefore, unlike you, after reading the masterpieces of Vitya Rezun and others like him, I read other hyped authors with great suspicion.

                  Unfortunately, people who read little know little, including technical details. For example, you didn't know that the initiative to convert the two-seater TsKB-55 into a single-seater TsKB-57 came from Ilyushin. Without such a conversion, Ilyushin, even with the AM-38 engine, did not expect to provide his brainchild with characteristics that the Red Army Air Forces would consider acceptable. The Red Army Air Forces never ordered Ilyushin to develop a single-seater version of his "flying tank" TsKB-55. Ilyushin's friend, Deputy People's Commissar and Stalin's adviser on aviation, aircraft designer Yakovlev, legalized such a conversion on the part of the People's Commissariat of Aviation by signing for Shakhurin. The decision to launch the single-seater aircraft into production was made by Stalin himself after Ilyushin convinced him at a personal meeting what a wonderful aircraft it turned out to be. At Stalin's instigation, the decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) on the launch of the single-seat Il into series production was adopted on December 7, 1940, not just before state tests, but before the first flight of the single-seat TsKB-57 with an AM-38 engine, which took place on December 29, 1940. The Red Army Air Forces were presented with a fait accompli. If it were not for this "bypass maneuver" by Ilyushin, the single-seat Il-2 would never have entered series production.
                  After reading the pearls of your Rastrenin, I feel the same way about him as I do about Rezun and the like.

                  Everything is clear with you. Further conversation with you is pointless. Continue living in an imaginary reality. Magazines "Technology of the Youth" of the 60s? I suppose you already have the rigidity characteristic of many in old age. But I am not a doctor. I am an engineer, a specialist not in people, but in technology. So you can treat the main modern specialist in the history of attack aviation and in the history of Ilyushin attack aircraft in particular, candidate of historical sciences Oleg Valentinovich Rastrenin as "Vitya Rezun", and I will consider that you have the cognitive rigidity characteristic of many in retirement age - and this will be my personal opinion as a non-specialist, nothing more. All the best.
                  The M-71 and M-71F engines were never brought into serial production.

                  I will not write at whose instigation in May 1941 the 14-cylinder M-82A was launched into serial production, for which at that time there was not a single aircraft being developed, and the no less intense in terms of parameters 18-cylinder M-71, with which the I-185 Polikarpov and Su-6 Sukhoi had already undergone flight tests. I will only write about the consequences. As a result, for almost a year, from June 1941 to June 1941, the M-82 engine was released for storage. A small series of Su-2 with this engine can be ignored. The production of the Su-2 bomber was "successfully" stopped in favor of the Il-2 with the M-82 engine in early 1942. The Il-2 with the M-82 engine was never put into production, but the Su-2s produced in 1941 and early 1942 successfully fought at the front as bombers even in 1943, and as spotter aircraft even in 1944 (the Su-2 was very successful in this role, much more successful than the Il-2KR, which was put into production in 1943).
                  - Hee-hee-hee! Apparently, you don't have a basic understanding of aviation. The Il-2, Su-2 and Su-4 are aircraft of different classes. They have completely different tactics of use. They cannot be interchangeable by definition.

                  What a funny old man you are. Order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR No. 0490 of June 17, 1942 on the use of Il-2 aircraft as day bombers. No, haven't you heard? Only the Il-2 was an extremely lousy bomber. It didn't even have a bombing sight. Bombing along the stripes on the hood, well, that's just so-so. Why does the Su-2 need a suspension of eight to ten RS and four wing-mounted ShKAS? Why does the Su-4 need two synchronized BS machine guns in addition to the small arms and missile armament of the Su-2, think about it sometime on the porch. Suddenly you'll come up with some bombing tactics for using these small arms and missile armament. Although you shouldn't think about it. No need to strain yourself, old electrician.
    2. 0
      29 May 2025 09: 07
      Quote: V.
      Everyone tries to use good ideas, there is nothing shameful about that.

      That's true. But the US actually "grew" thanks to the talented scientists they buy from all over the world.
      Thanks for the article, Roman.
  4. +2
    29 May 2025 05: 42
    During the period of our "new history" such crowds of Sikorskys and Mendeleyevs fled from Russia that the White Guard fairy tale about Sikorsky, who "accidentally learned about the villainous intentions of the Bolsheviks" looks pale. Wherever the pay was better, that's where he went. I suppose that at least in Europe the "bloody KGB" didn't persecute him?

    One might think that without the services of Sikorsky himself, America would not have become a powerful aviation power.
    1. +3
      29 May 2025 07: 43
      There is no need to devalue the role of individuals in history
      1. +5
        29 May 2025 09: 02
        Quote: novel xnumx
        There is no need to devalue the role of individuals in history

        Do you know the difference between Marconi and Popov?
        For a modern person?
        None.
        There was a “couple of days” difference between them, and no one would have noticed if there had been no Marconi and there had been Popov, or if there had been no Popov but there had been Marconi…
    2. +1
      29 May 2025 08: 23
      Quote: sidorov
      He went to where the pay was better.

      In tsarist Russia, scientists and engineers were mostly from the nobility.
      In Soviet Russia, under the pretext that "the nobles, due to their better education, will eventually occupy leadership positions and bring back capitalism," the nobles were deprived of the right to vote, plus they were not hired en masse to work in government structures and enterprises.
      Deprived of their means of subsistence, the nobles rushed en masse abroad, which was what the authorities of the time demanded.
      1. +2
        29 May 2025 09: 04
        I won't even mention the nobleman Ulyanov. But let's move on?

        Dzerzhinsky, Menzhinsky, Bonch-Bruevich, Lunacharsky, Krupskaya, Chicherin, Ordzhonikidze, Kollontai, Pyatakov, Merkulov, Ulrich, Kuibyshev, Vyshinsky, Malenkov, Tukhachevsky, Ignatiev, Karbyshev, Rokossovsky, Grizodubova, Michurin, Timiryazev, Mayakovsky, Tolstoy, Simonov, Mikhalkov.....

        Phew, I'm getting tired of listing them all. The forum isn't big enough. Familiar names? And can you imagine - yes, they were all nobles... At least on one side of the family...
        1. +1
          29 May 2025 13: 43
          Yes, you are right, the nobles and there were a lot of them, if they accepted the Soviet power and supported it, then they were not touched, although the repressions affected them like all ordinary citizens.
          1. +1
            29 May 2025 13: 59
            Well, if the People's Commissar of the NKVD Merkulov and the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR Malenkov were from the nobility, then what could be worse...
      2. +1
        29 May 2025 13: 47
        The children of commoners and merchants, kulaks and peasants, made up more than half of the students in the schools.
        There weren't as many nobles before the war as they say, and many didn't want to study.
      3. 0
        29 May 2025 17: 15
        [quote=Captain Pushkin][quote=sidorov]Where the pay was better, that's where he went.[/quote]
        In tsarist Russia, scientists and engineers were mostly from the nobility.
        "Nobles":
        Andrey Konstantinovich Nartov
        Ivan Petrovich Kulibin
        Ivan Ivanovich Polzunov
        Efim Alekseevich and Miron Efimovich Cherepanov
        Fyodor Abramovich Blinov
        Yakov Vasilievich Mamin
  5. +6
    29 May 2025 05: 53
    Sikorsky Double Hardness Steel Armor
    Excuse me, but what is this and how?
    1. +4
      29 May 2025 06: 02
      Quote: Alex 1970
      Sikorsky Double Hardness Steel Armor
      Excuse me, but what is this and how?
      Some mysterious artifact from an unread course on materials science wink
      1. +3
        29 May 2025 06: 09
        I also think that I missed something laughing
        1. +1
          29 May 2025 06: 19
          Probably it was meant that there are layers of material with different hardness. IMHO the consequences of machine translation....
          1. +7
            29 May 2025 06: 22
            Quote: Nexcom
            Probably it was meant that there are layers of material with different hardness. IMHO the consequences of machine translation....

            If the author even read his own article, then this is a grave consequence of his level of mental development.
      2. 0
        29 May 2025 10: 51
        But we haven’t heard about algorithmically constructed hardness levels.
        1. -2
          29 May 2025 11: 02
          Have you heard about algorithmically constructed hardness levels?
          I've heard about multi-layering. wink
    2. +2
      29 May 2025 06: 25
      Probably meant heterogeneous armor
    3. +8
      29 May 2025 06: 48
      Excuse me, but what is this and how?
      - and this is a long-term skill to write articles on technical topics, which can not be corrected by anything. The Vietnamese army dropped helicopters and Roma smashed articles on the site without proofreading what was written laughing
    4. +2
      29 May 2025 07: 43
      Heterogeneous armor, colleague, translation subtleties
      1. +5
        29 May 2025 08: 37
        Yes, I understood right away what it was and how. But writing a technical article with such bloopers, knowing that people who are related to this will read it (I am not related to aviation, I am related to metals), somehow looks "not cool".
        1. +1
          29 May 2025 09: 36
          And any person connected with military affairs knows this term, because ships, tanks and aircraft
    5. 0
      29 May 2025 08: 26
      Quote: Alex 1970
      Sikorsky Double Hardness Steel Armor
      Excuse me, but what is this and how?

      For example, cemented armor. In the first years of WWII, German tanks had this.
      If you wish, you can read what it is and how it works.
      1. -1
        29 May 2025 09: 34
        For example, cemented armor. In the first years of WWII, German tanks had this.
        If you wish, you can read what it is and how it works.
        Not long ago there was an article on this topic on the site. Much earlier than German tanks, such armor was tried to be made in Russia and Germany for battleships, the problem was in the complexity of the technology, and it was not possible to make the cementation uniform over the entire surface of the armor sheet.
        As for the part
        Sikorsky Double Hardness Steel Armor
        Excuse me, but what is this and how?
        I can assume that Sikorsky used surface hardening. This may explain the shape of the armored capsule, because it is impossible to bend sheets of such steel.
        1. 0
          29 May 2025 10: 59
          In my opinion, the method of forming layers of different hardness in strong magnetic fluxes has existed for quite a long time. If ancient katanas were layered hardening was carried out in furnaces, now, understanding that high temperature is a derivative of high-frequency variable pulses, then essentially the technology has not changed.
    6. The comment was deleted.
    7. The comment was deleted.
  6. +5
    29 May 2025 06: 58
    The damned Bolsheviks are to blame for the fact that Sikorsky makes helicopters from which they have killed and will continue to kill the civilian population of countries that are objectionable to American capitalists.
    1. +3
      29 May 2025 08: 28
      Kartveli, also an emigrant from Russia. His brainchild, the F-105, bombed Vietnam.
    2. +5
      29 May 2025 09: 19
      If it weren’t for the damned Bolsheviks, you would now, at best, be herding geese at the Bauer and be considered lucky.
      A holy place is never empty. The US has developed 29 types of attack helicopters. Only four of them belong to the Sikorsky company. In my opinion, the end of this company is logical.
  7. fiv
    +5
    29 May 2025 07: 05
    No one will let Sikorsky go under. The Marine Corps, the Army, and someone else will provide orders. It will also participate in the production of the convertiplane. The Americans love and value technology and do not spare money (and they have it!) on it. One tender is a small loss, not the end of the industry.
  8. +3
    29 May 2025 07: 28
    This is all very interesting, but I am also interested in what we have there?! And then everyone and their dog is already shouting that the era of helicopters has ended, just like tanks. I hope that there are new developments and the idea continues to develop
    1. +9
      29 May 2025 07: 47
      Quote: Vadim S
      I'm also interested in what we have there?!
      In our country? We still can't launch a single-engine Baikal - an airplane, a little more technologically advanced than a collective farm harvesting machine...
      1. +2
        29 May 2025 08: 31
        Whether you book a helicopter or not, it's protected from a MANPADS.
      2. +4
        29 May 2025 10: 51
        They officially closed the Baikal project, wasted a ton of money and that's it. It's a disgrace, they couldn't replace the maize plant... There are no words.
        1. +1
          29 May 2025 13: 10
          They didn't close anything, they gave UZGA many more billions so that they would make a propeller. In three years they will give them more money so that they will make a normal glider. This is Chemezov's feeding trough, which is being flooded with money and there is no demand.
  9. +5
    29 May 2025 08: 44
    But the Sikorskys knew how to make helicopters...

    They knew how, they know how, and they will know how. Sikorsky laid the foundations and traditions of American helicopter construction.
  10. +3
    29 May 2025 08: 53
    What is the message of the article?
    This time, Sikorsky did not win another helicopter competition.
    Won the last one for a lot of money.
    This one doesn't.
    Why bring Sikorsky's birth roots into this?

    Moreover, it is unclear on what basis Skomorokhov again makes his conclusions?
    Defiant is a rather ordinary product, actually.
    And Valor's choice fits perfectly into the American vision of a modern aircraft.
  11. 0
    29 May 2025 09: 09
    It's even sickening to read! Sikorsky left, which means he's a traitor! 80% of the aristocracy didn't leave anywhere, they lived and worked productively! Without Yuryev's invention of the swash plate, there would have been no helicopters at all. Yuryev lived and worked in the USSR... in 1930, helicopters (prototypes) in the USSR set records thanks to his invention. Yes, Sikorsky, in the USSR, might have been patted on the back, or might have been slapped... and in both cases, for the cause! No great loss... if someone saddled the project, it doesn't mean that without him, nothing would have happened.
  12. +1
    29 May 2025 09: 22
    IMHO, maybe it's something else? And all this is just intellectualizing and nonsense?
    Let's look on the Internet:
    In Russia: "in 2025, the Russian military and other security forces will have about 1200 vehicles of all types"
    "As of June 1, 2023, the State Register of Civil Aircraft of the Russian Federation contains more than 2,8 thousand helicopters, of which 67% are domestically produced."
    In the USA: "As of 2023, the number of civilian helicopters in the United States is more than 13."
    "As of 2025, the total number of helicopters in service with the US Army is 4 units."

    Maybe that's why they want something new? There's already a lot of old stuff?
  13. -2
    29 May 2025 09: 48
    We must save Boeing at any cost.
  14. -2
    29 May 2025 10: 30
    The work done by the Sikorskys can and should be archived under some pretext

    And then lose.
    Suddenly we will "find" something useful for our country and Army. After all, our roots are Russian! fellow laughing
  15. -1
    29 May 2025 11: 18
    A short review of the Sikorskys' works is good. But here again is a "tribute to fashion" about the Bolsheviks. This is a typical statement by a person illiterate in this area or especially for "ordinary" people. At the time of Sikorsky's departure, power was just being established. The Bolsheviks were just taking over what had fallen apart as a result of the Romanovs' loss of power and the mediocrity of the Russian bourgeoisie. The Bolsheviks picked up the falling power. And it was not at all immediately that they curbed the various councils of deputies. And if they had not existed? Popov invented in Russia, and Marconi implemented it... And Sikorsky would have been forced to make prototypes at most or emigrate. And when the Bolsheviks retained and consolidated power, the Yakovlevs, Tupolevs, Mils, Nevzorovs, and Skomorokhovs were able to appear there. Only sometimes nature takes a rest on grandchildren, and they cannot come to terms with it...
  16. -2
    29 May 2025 12: 26
    Igor Iwanowicz [Sikorski] ... nie miał właściwie nic do złapania, poza kulą

    I to the best sedno sprawy. Bolszewicy i ich następcy nienawidzili Rosji i Rosjan (tak jak obecne władze Polski od dawna nienawidzą Polski i Polaków). Dlatego przerażające jest to, że w Rosji ciągle próbuje się ich usprawiedliwiać, a nawet gloryfikować. I nikt nie pamięta o milionach wymordowanych przez nich Rosjan, zazwyczaj bardzo wartościowych ludzi, io innych milionach, którym udało się uciec. Można sobie tylko wyobrażać, jak wyglądałaby dziś Rosja - i jakie miałaby światowe znaczenie - gdyby nie bolszewickie zbrodnie.
  17. -2
    29 May 2025 12: 47
    the elder was a citizen of the Russian Empire and left quite soberly after the revolution. And he did the right thing, how many "leaned" for nothing gentlemen Bolsheviks in the aviation environment

    But Tupolev, Yakovlev, Myasishchev, Mikoyan, Gurevich, Lavochkin, Petlyakov, Bartini remained sober in their country and became outstanding aircraft designers.
    1. 0
      30 May 2025 03: 21
      Quote: dragon772
      Tupolev, Yakovlev, Myasishchev, Mikoyan, Gurevich, Lavochkin, Petlyakov, Bartin

      Of these, Tupolev, Myasishchev, Petlyakov, and Bartini were classified as enemies of the people by Soviet authorities and the court and repressed. Bartini was demonstratively crippled by the NKVD torture masters.
      1. -1
        30 May 2025 09: 56
        And then they were released and created: Tu-2, Pe-2, Er-2 which were in great demand in the Red Army. The above-mentioned bombers made a huge contribution to the defeat of fascism.
        1. -1
          30 May 2025 15: 19
          Quote: dragon772
          released and created

          For some reason the NKVD repressed Bartini, although it would have been more correct to shoot those who led the case of Bartini, Tupolev, and Polikarpov.
          1. -1
            2 June 2025 14: 23
            Bartini survived, was rehabilitated and created new aircraft.
            1. -1
              3 June 2025 15: 23
              Quote: dragon772
              Bartini survived

              Stalin somewhat restrained his executioners. He simply stopped the arrests of nuclear physicists, long before it became clear that the creation of nuclear weapons had become technically feasible. But he approved the arrests of aircraft designers, hoping that young people like Ilyushin, Yakovlev, Lavochkin, Gurevich, Mikoyan would work more productively than Polikarpov and Tupolev. Yes, Bartini was crippled, but he survived and returned to the aviation industry, but as a calculator and generator of ideas.
  18. -1
    29 May 2025 13: 12
    It turns out that years of testing that demonstrated impressive speed, maneuverability, high performance, and the ability to fit all of this into a relatively small space were not needed by the US Army.


    Where do these conclusions come from? There are no test reports available. Most likely, an overweight armored helicopter could fly 50 km with 2 people on board. And even then, with difficulty and not for long.
  19. -2
    29 May 2025 14: 30
    And we are working in this direction.
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. -1
    29 May 2025 14: 57
    Quote: Yellow bubble
    In one military museum, there is a photo of Sikorsky, where it is written that he is an American designer, born in America, in the photo there is Sikorsky in a Russian uniform
  22. -1
    29 May 2025 15: 01
    I envy that the US can conduct such programs in parallel in each direction.
    About 80% will end (and this is how it should be) with nothing (and at the same time they will provide technologies and materials) and about 20% will end with real combat vehicles.
    And, not unimportantly, then they will choose one winning model and adopt it into service (This is also a problem for the Russian Federation)
  23. bar
    -1
    29 May 2025 15: 01
    I'm embarrassed to ask, but was there anyone else who knew how to make coaxial helicopters besides Kamov?
    Sikorsky's prototypes with an additional pusher unit are of no use.
    1. -1
      30 May 2025 11: 09
      Sikorsky has a different principle in the coaxial design: at high speeds, the blades work like those of an autogyro, providing lift, and for forward movement, a pusher propeller or turbojet engine is needed. There is also a complex mechanism for changing the angle of attack of the blades during rotation to reduce resistance.
      1. bar
        -1
        30 May 2025 11: 41
        Quote: Cympak
        Sikorsky has a different principle in the coaxial design

        With Sikorsky, everything is clear. And where in the world does anyone make coaxial helicopters?
  24. +1
    29 May 2025 16: 04
    It is customary to write about Sikorsky with one’s eyes rolling to the sky in religious ecstasy:
    Our brilliant compatriot did a lot for world aviation...

    Sikorsky is a brilliant media-promoted aircraft designer. He enriched world aviation with the following achievements:
    1. The world's first bomber, the terror of the Germans, "Ilya Muromets" (IM).
    2. Sikorsky laid the foundations for the world's aircraft manufacturing of flying boats.
    3. He invented the helicopter.
    Let's look at these statements in more detail.
    In the controversy over the article “An assault non-assault aircraft that will destroy the Sikorsky company,” I proved with figures in hand that it:
    1. Was not the first bomber in the world
    2. In terms of its performance characteristics, the IM was the worst bomber of the First World War.
    I got 13 minuses, but they didn't refute a single word of mine. Personal attacks don't count.
    Sikorsky's last aviation masterpiece was the S-42 flying boat, built in 1934. From the time of the first flight of the Eraplan until 1934, more than 460 flying boats were designed in the world. Sikorsky has no claim to primacy in this regard. Boats were designed by:
    1. Russia
    2. USSR
    3. USA
    4. Italy
    5. France
    6. Great Britain
    7. Germany
    8. Austria
    9. Netherlands
    10. Poland
    11. Romania
    12. Japan
    13. Yugoslavia
    14. Austria-Hungary
    15. Denmark
    Before the revolution, more than 20 flying boats were designed in Russia alone. Including Sikorsky's S-10 hydro, his second masterpiece after the IM. Wikipedia claims that 16 S-10s were built. A typical propaganda lie. The 16 include the prototype boat and three orders of 5 boats each.
    The prototype crashed before being accepted by the Navy.
    Sikorsky completed the first order in full, and the boats were accepted by the fleet.
    The second order of boats differed from the prototype, so the navy accepted only two boats out of five.
    In the third order, Sikorsky presented his S-10s, mounted on floats, instead of the S-6. The story with the third order is rather murky. Two boats were accepted with scandal, and three more, apparently, were simply not built.
    In total, 5 S-10s and 4 more were delivered to the fleet for unknown reasons.
    The general view of naval officials and pilots on the S-10 is that the plane is complete crap. At the beginning of the war, the S-10s were used as reconnaissance aircraft, then they were transferred to training. In the Russian Empire, the S-10 was the worst flying boat.
    At the beginning of the First World War, the C-10 competed with the Franco-British boat "FBA", also designed in 1913. Incidentally, I will note that this was not the first flying boat of the "FBA" company. The boats of 1913 were called "FBA" type A, B, C, etc. A total of 300 of them were built. This is more than the total number of all the aircraft built by Sikorsky.
    The S-10 was 100 km behind the FBA in range. Therefore, Russia purchased 30 FBA Type C aircraft with a Gnome-Monosupap engine (100 hp) from France, and another 34 were built at the Lebedev plant.
    Since 1915, the FBA were gradually replaced by the M-5 aircraft designer D.P. Grigorovich. 500 M-5s were built. The total number of Grigorovich flying boats built during World War I was over 600. Compared to Grigorovich, Sikorsky is just a pygmy.
    By 1934, more than 100 flying boats had been designed in the United States. 47 aircraft companies and individual enthusiasts participated in their design. In the United States, Sikorsky designed:
    1. Sikorsky PS-1. Patrol flying boat based on the S-36. 1927. 1 unit built.
    2. Sikorsky P2S. Patrol flying boat based on the S-38. 1932. 4 units were built. During the tests that took place for about a year, it was concluded that the basic flight data of the flying boat were at the level of the flying boats already in service with the Navy, and the practical range was even worse. As a result, the project was closed.
    3. Sikorsky S-34. Twin-engine light flying boat. 1927. 1 unit built. Crashed during testing.
    4. Sikorsky S-36. Twin-engine transport flying boat based on the S-34. 1927. Capacity: 6 passengers. Considered commercially successful. 6 built.
    5. Sikorsky S-38. Twin-engine transport flying boat, development of S-34 and S-36. 1928. 101 units built. Sikorsky's most commercially successful boat. Passenger capacity: 8-10 passengers or 2970 kg of cargo.
    6. Sikorsky S-39. Single-engine transport flying boat for 4-5 passengers or 590 kg of cargo. 1929. 21 units built.
    7. Sikorsky S-40. Four-engine transport flying boat for 38 passengers. 1931. Cruising range: 1400 km. 3 units were built. The S-40 is characterized by a backward design in the style of World War I aircraft.
    8. Sikorsky S-41. Twin-engine transport flying boat based on the S-38 for 15 passengers. 1930. 7 units built.
    9. Sikorsky S-42 CLIPPER. Four-engine transport flying boat. 1934. 10 units were built. The best praise for the S-42: "The very shape of the S-42 embodies simplicity. Unlike previous Sikorsky models, external fastenings were kept to a minimum." That is, the S-42 did not have any design innovations. All the same struts and braces as in the First World War. Capacity: up to 37 passengers during the daytime or 14 berths. 10 units were built. Range in the most "advanced" version of the S-42B:
    - 1900 km in passenger version:
    - 4800 km in the mail version with a payload of 360 kg.
    10. Sikorsky S-43 BABY CLIPPER. Twin-engine transport flying boat. 1934. Capacity: 19 passengers. 53 units built.
    11. Sikorsky SS-1(2). Reconnaissance flying boat. 1933. 1 unit built.
    All these boats are characterized by Sikorsky's outstanding PR and a flight range inferior to competitors. No matter how hard Sikorsky tried, he was unable to push a single boat into the US Army.
    The pinnacle of Sikorsky's aviation creativity is the Sikorsky S-42.
    On August 15.08.1931, 12, Pan American issued a technical specification for a long-range transatlantic flying boat. The boat was to carry a crew of four and 4023 passengers over a distance of 233 km at a cruising speed of XNUMX km/h.
    On November 30.11.1932, 130, the airline signed a contract with Martin to design the M-42 aircraft and with Sikorsky to design the S-XNUMX.
    In response to this order, Sikorsky built his S-1934 Clipper boat in 42, and his competitor Glenn Martin introduced his M-1935 China Clipper in 130.
    Sikorsky failed to complete the task and lost to Glenn Martin. Since the range of the S-42 in the passenger version was only 1448 km, instead of the required 4023 km. In turn, the range of the M-130 in the role of a passenger boat was 5150 km.
    Before Glenn Martin rolled out his M-130, Sikorsky had already broken several world records with the S-42 and had carried out an unprecedented propaganda campaign. During this campaign, Sikorsky invented the "Clipper" trademark. With Sikorsky's help, all large flying boats began to be called "Clippers."
    Glenn Martin, unlike Sikorsky, did not bother with world records. On October 21, 1936, the M-130 Hawaiian Clipper began operating the first regular flights from California to the Philippines, and on October 14, 1936, the M-130 Philippine Clipper opened air service to Hong Kong. Sikorsky could only dream of such flights.
    After Glenn Martin, Sikorsky lost to Boeing. Its Boeing 314 Clipper (1938) had a range of 5896 km.
    As for helicopters, all the principles of their design were invented before Sikorsky. Helicopters were considered useless toys until the genius Sikorsky came up with the idea of ​​selling them to the US Army. You can say whatever you want, but I think that the Mils and Kamovs are better than the Sikorskys.
  25. 0
    29 May 2025 22: 32
    If only someone would translate the article into Russian...
    What is "double hardness armor"? Why a rotor and not a rotor blade? Why "counter-rotating rotors" and not a coaxial design? There are terms accepted in the Russian technical tradition. It is difficult to read and simultaneously translate into the native language. The meaning, which is already small, is lost. In my opinion, this is still the author's task.
    As an option, I can assume that the author, the "writer", is completely out of the loop and therefore afraid to deviate even one step from the translation done by a completely unqualified translator.
  26. -3
    29 May 2025 22: 37
    Quote: Old electrician
    2. In terms of its performance characteristics, the IM was the worst bomber of the First World War.

    And the reason for this is the completely inoperative aerodynamic design of the statically unstable aircraft at that time. That is why all attempts to install more powerful engines on the IM yielded nothing. With the slightest increase in speed, the aircraft became completely uncontrollable.
    The first production aircraft built according to the IM design was the American F-16 fighter.
    So yes! You can call Sikorsky a visionary who was ahead of the world by about sixty years.
    1. -1
      30 May 2025 08: 07
      Where did you find out that the F-16 has the same rear center of gravity as the IM? The rear center of gravity of the aircraft does nothing but create a bunch of problems. There are some aircraft with neutral center of gravity, which reduces drag and increases maneuverability. However, with neutral center of gravity and failure of the self-propelled guns, the aircraft is doomed. That is why it is not very popular.
      1. -2
        30 May 2025 12: 32
        And what is its center of gravity? The F-16, like most fourth-generation aircraft, is statically unstable and cannot fly without the EMF. By the way, in case of failure with the automation, the docking units of the F-16 prototypes were made with 16" varnish. If the electricity had turned out to be insufficiently effective and reliable, the wing would have simply been moved back.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          31 May 2025 05: 06
          The only thing that the IM and the F-16 have in common is the adventurism of the designers, multiplied by their hypertrophied belief in their own exclusivity.
          For ease of consideration, stability is conventionally divided into static stability - the property of an aircraft to exhibit a tendency to restore a disturbed equilibrium at the initial moment of time and dynamic stability - the property of an aircraft to restore the initial flight mode without the pilot's intervention some time after the disturbance has ceased. The presence of static stability is a necessary but insufficient condition for the dynamic stability of an aircraft.
          The static stability of an aircraft is determined by the ratio of the position of the aircraft's center of mass and the point of application of the lifting force - the focus.
          Normal aircraft have their center of mass ahead of the focus. Such aircraft have a forward center of gravity. The more the center of mass is ahead of the focus, the more stable the aircraft is. Therefore, the static stability margin is determined as a percentage of MAC – the conventional average wing chord. The standard is considered to be a stability margin of 30%.
          If the aircraft's center of mass is behind the focal point, then it has a rearward center of gravity and is statically unstable.
          The comfort of piloting an aircraft is usually determined by the Cooper-Harper scale of aircraft dynamics parameters (see photo).
          The IM has a rear center of gravity. Only about 80 IMs were built. About 40 of them were comfortable enough to fly according to the Cooper Hunter scale. And vice versa. More than 40 IMs were uncomfortable to fly. Therefore, they could not be used for combat missions.
          In order to drive the IM into the comfortable piloting zone according to the Cooper-Harper scale, its flight characteristics were sacrificed. Therefore, the IM was inferior to single-engine bombers in terms of flight range and bomb load.
          By the beginning of the First World War, N.E. Zhukovsky had already developed a theory of aircraft flight, he had established the basic requirements for piloting an aircraft in horizontal flight and during descent, the conditions of longitudinal stability, etc. The data he obtained were in themselves of great importance for aviation science, but N.E. Zhukovsky tried to make this discovery available to all flight personnel. He gave a special course of lectures on aircraft stability to students of officer pilot schools in Moscow and Petrograd. In 1915-1916, Zhukovsky gave a course on "Flight Dynamics" at the Moscow Pilot School. The first part of the course, carefully transcribed by V.P. Vetchinkin, was published under the title "Airplane Dynamics in Elementary Exposition". Thus, a new branch of aviation science was born - flight dynamics.
          Sikorsky could well have familiarized himself with Zhukovsky's work. Based on the knowledge he gained, it would have been possible to make a quite decent airplane out of the IM. To do this, it would have been enough to move the IM's biplane box back about a meter. Rough calculations show that after this, the IM's bomb load would have increased from 197,8 kg to about a ton. But for this, Sikorsky had to be an aircraft designer, not an adventurer.
          In exile, Sikorsky tried once again to promote the obviously unpromising IM scheme on his planes. However, he no longer had the support of the Tsar Father. Therefore, they had no success in the USA.
          Sikorsky's partner in embezzling the tsar's money was M.V. Shidlovsky, who combined the positions of director of Russo-Balt and commander of the EVK. This was an ideal corruption scheme. Since any complaints from the front regarding the design flaws of the IM were, in principle, impossible.
          Those IMs that were impossible to pilot, accomplices Sikorsky + Shidlovsky declared "training". Of the "training" IMs, only a little more than ten were able to fly to the front. However, they were unsuitable for combat. Therefore, Shidlovsky wrote them off due to the alleged delamination of the plywood from the rain. As a result, the service life of IMs that did not make a single combat sortie was two - three weeks at most. The engines were removed from the written-off IMs and installed on new plywood. Money regularly dripped into the account.
          The "training" IMs could only fly around the airfield; it was impossible to even fly to the front on them. The IMs of the "D" series were especially successful. Three aircraft were built. Two of them flew simply disgustingly, if you can call them flights. The third IM of the "D" series was not even dared to take off. Still, whatever you say, Sikorsky was a brilliant aircraft designer!
          In January 1917, the EVK had about 30 IM. Of these, only 4 "Muromets" were at the front, the rest were "training".
          By 1917, 30 IM crews had been trained. Even taking into account the crews that perished, there was more than one "training" IM per trained crew. No other type of aircraft, except specialized training aircraft, had such a ratio of combat aircraft to training aircraft.
          The maximum number of IMs present at the front at one time was 12 (1916).
          The F-16 has a forward center of gravity with a small stability margin. According to the Cooper-Harper scale, its parameters are in the area where piloting the aircraft is impossible. It can only fly with a working fly-by-wire system. Therefore, there is absolutely no similarity between the IM and the Sokol.
          In terms of dynamic properties, the F-16 is complete crap, designed for war with Papuans armed with bayonets taped to bamboo poles. The maximum permissible angle of attack of the Sokol varies from 40 degrees at low overloads to 15 degrees at 9g. If the angle of attack is violated, the Sokol stalls, and no EFB can help it. Despite the digital system for preventing critical angles of attack, the Americans have already lost several aircraft for this reason.
          An example of an aircraft with a rear center of gravity is the Su-27. Just don't tell us any fairy tales about the brilliant foresight of the charlatan Sikorsky 60 years in advance.
  27. +1
    29 May 2025 22: 41

    It is absolutely not for nothing that it is in the plural: Sergei Igorevich Sikorsky's services to world aviation may be less than Igor Ivanovich's, but only a complete layman would not appreciate them:


    Let's start with the fact that the article itself was written by a layman who has absolutely no understanding of the topic.
    Let's start with the fact that of all the merits of Sikorsky, this is the invention of a multi-engine power plant for aircraft. Although this in itself is not small.
    As for helicopters, alas and alack. Theft, or whatever, borrowing other people's ideas and concepts.
    The helicopter, its design, layout, and control principles were invented by a student of the Russian Academy of Sciences, later Lieutenant General of the USSR, Boris Nikolaevich Yuryev.
    The first real flying helicopter, the TsAGI-1EA, was built in the USSR under the supervision of Cheremukhin and first took off in 1930.
    And in 1932, a world altitude record of 605 meters was set on it.
    Sikorsky's helicopter, built according to the same Yuryev/Cheremukhin design, took off only in 1939. That is, there was enough time to steal the idea in the USSR.
    And why lament about Sikorsky when the USSR had Kamov and Mil?
    As for high-speed helicopters.
    This is a dead-end direction. The aerodynamics of the rotor are such that the higher the speed characteristics, the worse the helicopter characteristics.
    And all these high-speed gadgets are capable of taking off and landing like a helicopter only at sea level. Therefore, their practical application is highly questionable.
    1. -1
      30 May 2025 17: 29
      Why so.
      If the helicopter has nacelles with tractor propellers, they are located on the sides of the fuselage.
      1. -1
        30 May 2025 21: 51
        Why so.
        If the helicopter has nacelles with tractor propellers, they are located on the sides of the fuselage.


        An example is Ka-22. They didn't cut helicopter capabilities there. As a result, only 310 are above.
        1. -1
          30 May 2025 23: 33
          I'm talking about the Airbus X3 and Airbus RACER (though it has pusher propellers)
  28. -2
    29 May 2025 22: 45
    Quote: Popandos
    Much earlier than German tanks, such armor was tried to be made in Russia and Germany for battleships, the problem was the complexity of the technology, and it was not possible to make the cementation uniform over the entire surface of the armor sheet.

    Oops! All armored ships built after 1875 until the last battleships of WWII had heterogeneous armor.
    First, the compound. This is when steel is poured onto a forged iron plate and then hardened.
    Then the armor was processed using the Harvey method, with one-sided cementation and hardening.
    Then Krupp armor, also one-sided cemented and hardened, only with a different ligature and different heat treatment modes.
    And they bent this armor as needed and the uniformity of the properties was more than excellent.
  29. -1
    1 June 2025 15: 25
    In general, gentlemen, you are on the right path. We approve in every way. More convertiplanes, autogyros, in general, anything but decent helicopters.
    And helicopters won't go anywhere and Sikorsky won't go bankrupt. And convertiplanes will prove themselves well. The deputy volts are pleased by the ears. Nobody builds them by the dozens, they saw that it didn't turn out quite right and stopped investing money there. Do they know how to do that in the Russian Federation? Can they recognize a mistake and close an overly expensive project?
  30. -1
    2 June 2025 00: 19
    But the Sikorskys knew how to make helicopters
    Unfortunately, we do too.
  31. -1
    6 June 2025 17: 58
    And the point here is not at all that the Sikorskys are our compatriots; yes, the elder one was a citizen of the Russian Empire and left quite soberly after the revolution.


    On the contrary, he left completely hysterically and unprovoked. He was in no danger from the new authorities. He had no reasons for leaving abruptly. There is NO evidence that the Bolsheviks had anything against him. The only contradiction between him and the new authorities was that the assembly of airplanes had stopped because of the strikes and walkouts. The information that they wanted to shoot him is nothing more than fiction.
    There are recollections of Igor Sikorsky's son that the reason for his departure was the designer's brother, who served in the imperial army and pushed him to leave in every possible way. It was he who once came to their apartment with the information that an "execution order" had already been prepared for Sikorsky. There are simply no other documented reasons or causes. At all. And he left not for the USA, but for France. And only from there, having failed to start production, did he end up in the USA.

    And he did the right thing, as the gentlemen Bolsheviks had “leaned” for nothing in the aviation environment, and especially in its design section, so Igor Ivanovich, who had been awarded by the last emperor, really had nothing to catch except a bullet.


    And how many? Who "for nothing"? I remind the author that Half of the officer corps of the imperial army served in the Red Army. And even those awarded with awards by the last emperor. The GOELRO plan was created and implemented by engineers of the imperial school. And Soviet legislation was almost entirely created by imperial lawyers. So, author, lie, but do not lie. Sikorsky's colleague at Aviabalt, Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov, collaborated EXCELLENTLY with the Bolsheviks and became one of the founders of the Soviet aviation industry.
    The actual state councilor and holder of orders never left his homeland.
    St. Stanislaus 2nd class (1884)
    St. Anne 2nd Art. (1888)
    St. Vladimir 3rd class (1899)
    St. Stanislaus 1nd class (1902)
    St. Anne 1nd Art. (1914)
    Nikolai Egorovich Zhukovsky.

    So there is no need to justify Sikorsky's hysteria in 1918 by "repressions of the Bolsheviks". This is nonsense and delirium. Besides, he left in 1918, when the Bolsheviks had no time for repressions, they themselves would have survived until 1920 in the conditions of "revolutionary self-activity of the masses".
  32. -1
    6 June 2025 18: 36
    I am very sorry that one of the galaxy of the most brilliant people who made the history of aviation went to the other end of the world and there put all his talent into the service of another country.


    Well, how can I say... But he made room for others from the galaxy of brilliant people. And it's hard to say that the US gave him scope for self-realization. He created and launched into production the S-51, S-55, S-56, S-58, S-61, S-64 and S-65.
    The most widespread was the S-58, made in ~2000 copies. The other series are much more modest.
    In turn, Mil in the USSR created the Mi-1, Mi-2, Mi-4, Mi-6, Mi-8, Mi-10, Mi-12.
    Mi-1 -- 2680 units.
    Mi-2 -- 5400 units.
    Mi-4 -- 3900
    Mi-6 -- 926
    Mi-8 -- 12000+
    Mi-10 -- 55
    Mi-12 -- 2
    It turns out that the USSR trusted its own designers more than the USA trusted the visiting Russian talent?
    And after Mil, his design bureau created it and launched it into production
    Mi-24 3500
    Mi-28 approx. 200
    And what about Sikorsky? Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOTHING. Bold projects, elegant engineering solutions and not a single new production model.