Military Review

The agony of Poland. September 1939

117
Offered to your attention the article does not claim to be exclusive. But in our opinion it is relevant today. The war in Poland cannot be considered forgotten - there are not a few publications on this topic, but the majority of today's authors are actively “pressing” on the political background of this stories or trying to find in it some kind of "fried" forfeits and factories, often in actual fact turned out to be absolute Fiction. So that we would not be accused of political predilections, the author relied on foreign sources in today's publication, the main one of which was capital work - “HISTORY OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR” (K.Tippelskirkh). We think that those beginning critics will read this article with interest for themselves, that VB Rezun (who became famous under the pseudonym of Viktor Suvorov) bought with ease “Ledokol” and who can now ask themselves the very questions that they (quoting this pseudo-historical ) torment people who stand in different positions. And will they now consider that the blow inflicted by A. Hitler on Poland was also preventive, as a means of preventing East Prussia from occupying Poland?


3 April 1939. Wehrmacht High Command issued a directive "On the Unified Training of Armed Forces for War", containing the main provisions of the preparations for the upcoming war with Poland. The main task of the ground forces imposed in the directive was the complete destruction of the Polish armed forces before a possible third party could enter the war. For this purpose, it was prescribed to prepare for waging a “blitzkrieg” - a sudden massive strike that would lead to the complete superiority of the Wehrmacht until the enemy completed the mobilization measures. The directive provided for the OPPORTUNITY to begin operations from the twentieth of August 1939.

Geographically, Germany had all the prerequisites for achieving a quick victory over Poland, which seemed to be in a semi-circle, since East Prussia hung over its territory from the northeast, and the annexation of Czechoslovakia allowed them to use Slovakia for a massive invasion from the south. This configuration of the front line enabled the Wehrmacht to deliver a powerful blow by large forces in converging directions. It was not difficult to foresee (for those military leaders who then wanted to think) that the German command would conduct military operations in Poland with two or even three army groups, using the natural-geographical position. But for some reason, the Polish command believed that a possible German offensive would develop along only one path. However, more on that later.

To fight the German command created two army groups, "North" and "South". Their very name speaks of their deployment sites.

The North Army Group, commanded by Colonel-General von Bock, included the 4-I and 3-I armies. Before them was tasked with joint strikes from East Prussia and Pomerania to establish a link between East Prussia and Germany. Subsequently, they were supposed to defeat the enemy defending north of the Vistula by concerted actions of all forces, and then, in cooperation with Army Group South, destroy the Polish units, which would remain in the western part of Poland. From the bend of the rivers Oder and Varta, only small forces were to attack in order to pin down Polish troops here and to deceive the enemy.

The agony of Poland. September 1939
The entry of German troops in Poland. September 1 Morning 1939


German tank part in the region of Mzlopolsk, September 5, 1939


German soldier in battle. 5-6 September 1939


Army Group South, under the command of Colonel-General von Rundstedt, included the 14, 10 and 8 armies and, having concentrated powerful forces in the offensive zone of the 10 army, from the Silesia region in the general direction of Warsaw, defeating the Polish troops standing against it. Having forced the Vistula on the both sides of Warsaw and surrounding the capital of Poland, they, in cooperation with Army Group North, were supposed to complete the destruction of the remaining Polish troops and go either to the border with the USSR or (if the Russians would nevertheless decide to start fighting against Poland) - to connect with the units of the Red Army.

In total, 44 divisions were concentrated for the offensive against Poland, mainly personnel divisions, including tank and motorized divisions. In addition, on September 1, the formation of another 10 reserve divisions began, which did not take part in the hostilities. The German Air Force in this theater of operations totaled up to 2 aircraft, reduced to the 1st Air Fleet under the command of the general aviation Kesselring (Army Group North) and the 4th Air Fleet under the command of General Aviation Lehr (Army Group South).

German anti-aircraft SDU SdKfz 10 / 5 in battle. Poland, 1 1 September 1939


Commander SdKfz 222 overcomes the stream along the bridge.


Street fight in Bydgoszcz.


German automobile part on the march to Warsaw. 6 September 1939


Note that before the war, Poland was not considered a small state. Its population in 1939 was over 35 million, people, and the army was very large for peacetime - 30 infantry divisions, 1 cavalry division and individual cavalry brigades (more than 1 million). Equipment of the Polish Armed Forces weapons it was sufficient, but its samples (weapons) were products of mostly obsolete types. There were few tanks; and of these, only 7TR more or less met modern requirements and was taken into account by the Germans. The Renault R3S and Hotchiss H35 hooks received from France were not put into operation (according to the negligence of the command, even Polish instructions were not made for them, which made their development by the troops almost hopeless). Of the thousands of small planes that made up the Polish air force, less than half (and those bombers) could be considered more or less modern. The field artillery mainly consisted of 75-mm and 76-mm 1890-1920 quick-fire guns. Anti-tank artillery was quite modern, but extremely small. Even less were anti-aircraft artillery, the development of which, as well as the development of fighter aircraft, was completely neglected in Poland before the war.

Misses in equipping and recruiting the Polish armed forces were aggravated by strategic miscalculations of the Polish command. Given the current situation, Poland could count on success in defending its own territory only by withdrawing the main forces for the Vistula, San and Narev and erecting additional fortifications there. But at the same time, the industrial area of ​​Upper East Silesia would have to be given to the Germans, and therefore the Polish command, with its great power of thinking, would see such a retreat incredible. The commander of the Polish armed forces, Marshal Rydz-Smigly, set himself an absolutely insoluble task. Like his French teachers, he wanted to keep the entire territory of Poland with existing forces, and to take even swift offensive actions against East Prussia. The principle of “we will not give up our land” prevailed before the war in the defensive doctrine of almost all European countries. Therefore, the main forces of the Polish army (like the armies of other countries) were located along the borders in order to repel the first blow of the aggressor to quickly go on the offensive and "beat the enemy in its territory with a little blood with a powerful blow." In addition, the Polish command believed that France, faithful to its allied duty, would certainly strike Germany from the rear, which in this case was threatened by a “child mate in three moves”.

Thus, a real chance to transfer military operations with Germany to a positional war on previously prepared lines was ignored, and Poland was unable to carry on maneuverable battles with existing forces. So the war was deliberately lost by the Polish command long before September 1939.

We intend to omit here the Gleuitsky incident, repeatedly described over fifty years of post-war history, and proceed to the course of military operations.

The Polish command (as well as the command of many European countries) expected that the war would begin in accordance with the traditions, from border clashes and battles, during which small forces from both sides would take part, gradually involving larger masses of troops in the fighting and therefore did not hurry With the general mobilization announced by 20 in August, the latent mobilization of the Polish government began in March 1939. The strategic deployment of troops provided for in the mobilization plan for the start of hostilities did not Chenoa and hit many parts of the German units of the Polish army took while on the move or on time, or not equipped positions.

PzKpfw IV Ausl A in the Modlin area. September 1939


Trophy Polish tank A11 Mark I, surrounded by German soldiers.


The surrender of the Polish troops of the group "Modlin". 21 September 1939


The commander of the German tank unit accepts the surrender of Polish officers. September 1939


German troops, in accordance with the “blitzkrieg” doctrine (the authorship of which some authors attribute to the Soviet Union for some reason), crossed the Polish border 1 September 1939 in 4 hours 45 minutes in the morning. Simultaneous performance of all ground troops massive strikes on Polish airfields inflicted Luftwaffe units. Despite the mobilization and preparations for war by the Polish command, the Polish aircraft were completely open, many of them were not fueled, did not carry weapons, and therefore the aircraft of the defenders quickly ceased to exist.

The actions of the ground forces developed in strict accordance with a pre-developed scenario. Despite the adventurousness of some points of this scenario, the German offensive unfolded, in general, successfully. The impression of failure to capture the bridge in Dirschau (the Poles managed to blow up the bridge, which delayed the attackers for a short time) and the action of the landing group in Westerplatte (the Germans unexpectedly met with fierce resistance) were slightly spoiled. Despite the guarantees of the Allies, it was only on the morning of the third day of hostilities that the British and French put forward an ultimatum to the Germans, and declared a war for dinner. But no active actions, despite the numerous promises of the Polish command, did not begin. Moreover, all the fears of Hitler that the allies, even without crossing the border, would be able to limit themselves to effective actions of their own aircraft and fleets against the territory of Germany, did not materialize, as K. Zibert, who commanded the cover company of the West Wall, testified, France, barked, fell asleep.

Army Group North took only a few days to establish a connection between East Prussia and Germany. After the battles in the Tukholska Wasteland with two Polish infantry divisions and a cavalry brigade attempting to counter-attack and defend here, the 4 I left the September 4 in the Kulma area and forced the Vistula. In the course of the battles, more than 16 LLC people were captured with 100 guns. Part of the 3 Army, advancing from East Prussia, 4 September broke into the northern fort of the fortress Grudzionz and the next day the fortress fell. By September 7, advanced units of the army reached the Narew River, destroying a large enemy force in the area north of Mlawa on the way.



The 14 Army of Army Group South with meager losses seized the Upper Silesian industrial region, simply bypassing the Polish fortifications that were here.

The 10 Army, which included several tank divisions, already advanced 2 September to the Warta River north of Czestochowa, then turned to Warsaw and Radom. 7 September 10 army was already in 60 km south-west of Warsaw.

5-6 September revealed that the calculation of the required quantity of ammunition and artillery for combat operations was, to put it mildly, insufficient, as well as the fact that German planes and tanks consume gasoline somewhat more than that guaranteed by the manufacturers. But if the situation with gasoline was still tolerable, then diesel fuel catastrophically came to an end. In order to allow diesel trucks to move around, 6 September was hastily designed an instruction for replacing diesel fuel with a mixture of synthetic gasoline and crude oil. Increasingly, aviation was used to supply the troops. 6-7 September 1939 were critical days of the entire Polish campaign.

By September 7, the covering forces of all Polish border defense areas were shot down and destroyed, or carried out a random departure. The control of the Polish armed forces under the blows of the German troops became impossible, but despite this, Polish soldiers fought everywhere with extreme bitterness, although their command was completely stupid, which led mostly to unjustifiably high losses. September 6 The Polish government hastily left Warsaw and moved to Lublin, from which September September 9 left for Kremenets, and September September 13 went to Zalishchyky. 16 September the Polish government crossed the border of Romania. The army was left without command; the country was left to the mercy of fate.

Street fighting in the suburbs of Warsaw.


German flamethrowers suppress the Polish firing point. September, 1939


German aircraft bombed Warsaw. September, 1939


Calculation of the German 20mm anti-aircraft gun on the Opera Square in Warsaw.


Calculation of the German howitzer in street fighting in Warsaw.


Further operations of the German army led to the encirclement and destruction of all those still bleeding in the defense west of the Vistula, Polish units. In spite of the obvious outcome of this defense, Polish soldiers continued to fight at times with despair, reaching the point of recklessness. By September 10 the battles here were over. Then the 3-I and 14-I German armies took offensive action east of the Vistula. They delivered deep strikes from the north and south in order to surround the Polish reserve units that were here. 14 army actions were simplified by the fact that 5 September and the war entered Slovakia, which advanced one division, crossed the border at Dukel Pass. The 14 units of the army met at the San River with a strong defense, which 9-10 of September was broken north of Sanok. On September 11, formations of the right flank of the 14 army crossed the river, completing the bypass and encirclement of Przemysl.

The connections of the left flank of the 14 Army, after the capture of Krakow, advanced on both sides of the upper course of the Vistula and then crossed to the eastern bank of the river in the Sandomierz region. Then the crossing over San and the exit to Rawa-Russkaya, where the advancing units clashed with a large group of Polish troops, was carried out. These were the remnants of the Polish armies that had departed here from the southern border. Commanded these units General Pistor. The group had fierce resistance to the German troops and inflicted heavy losses, but nevertheless, by September 16 it was surrounded, and soon destroyed.

10-I army, forcing Warth, 13 September surrounded a large group of Polish troops in the Radon area, creating a boiler to which more than 65 thousand people and 145 guns were “welded”. After several days of fighting, the remnants of five Polish divisions stationed there were captured. The left wing of the 10 Army, meanwhile, continued to advance toward Warsaw. Already on September 11, its advanced tank units began fighting in the suburbs of the Polish capital, but all their attacks were repelled.

These days for the German troops created a new critical situation on the northern flank of the 8-th army, reflected in the 10-th army. It was created because the 4 infantry divisions and 2 cavalry brigade of the army "Poznan", which the Polish command planned to use for conducting offensive operations in Germany and who were not involved in defensive battles, began to retreat in the general direction of Warsaw. Along the way, Polish troops met the highly stretched German 30 Division, which was providing the northern flank of the 8 Army, advancing on Lodz. Polish troops turned south and attacked the German division on a broad front, which was in a difficult position. Other Polish units, randomly retreating in the direction of Warsaw, joined with the Poznań group and strengthened it. 8-I army was forced to turn to the north and go on the defensive. The 10 Army units, which received orders to attack the Polish group from the east, also suspended their offensive. The units of the 4 Army received orders to surround the Poles also from the north. But before the encirclement was completed, units of the German 8 Army had to be tight, as units of the Poznan group continuously attacked them with the despair of a mortally wounded beast. This lasted from 8 but September 11, after which the Polish units themselves went on the defensive, from time to time trying to break through south. On September 16, they made a final attempt to break free from the German ring in the Lovich area, after which their resistance was broken. September 19 remnants of nineteen divisions and three cavalry brigades, only about 170 thousand people, led by General Bortnovsky, laid down their arms.

17,19. A. Hitler examines the destroyed Polish armored train.


German tank PzKpfw II Ausf with lined in the suburbs of Warsaw.


The parade of German troops in Warsaw.


While fighting with the group "Poznan", the German 3-I army followed the Guderian tank corps (redeployed to gain it) east of the Vistula. September 9 army crossed the Narew and rushed to the south, 11 September it almost without obstacles from the Polish army forced the Bug, and beating Warsaw from the east, turned through Siedlce to the west to finally surround the capital, while Guderian's mobile connections continued to move southeast. One forward detachment broke through the September 14 line of Brest forts and made its way to the citadel. But the resistance of the garrison was broken only 17 September with the approach of the main forces.

On September 13, the Osovets fortress in northeastern Poland passed into the hands of German troops. It now remained to surround Warsaw from the west, which was soon done.

September 17 decided to enter the war the Soviet Union. Moving quickly in front of the Red Army, 21 September broke down organized resistance wherever it flared up and soon met with the advance units of the German army. However, the “Red Blitzkrieg” (and, most likely, maneuvers, which were sometimes fired with live ammunition) is a topic that deserves a separate description.

September 19 Polish campaign was virtually over. Warsaw, despite numerous German ultimatums and memoranda, continued desperate resistance, but the defenders thawed under the air and artillery strikes of 21 in September at the suggestion of the German command, representatives of all diplomatic missions and more 1 200 foreigners were evacuated from the city, and the city fell on 28 in September. September 30 capitulated Modlin fortress, and October 2 stopped fierce resistance and the last stronghold of the Poles - the port of Hel.

In a war that lasted only 18 days (the siege of Warsaw is not counted), the Polish army was completely destroyed. Approximately 695 thousand people were captured by the Germans, up to 217 thousand people by the Russians. It is possible that, before 100, thousands of people fled across the borders of Romania, Hungary and Lithuania. The huge number of killed Polish soldiers and civilians who fought alongside them, according to some sources, is more than one and a half million people, and most likely will never be precisely established.

The German Armed Forces successfully completed the first stage of their blitzkrieg. Despite the fact that they were opposed by a fairly numerous adversary, the operation developed almost without deviations from the scenario. The losses of the German army were miserable: 10 572 people killed, 30 222 wounded and 3-109 missing. But all these successes were to a large extent determined by the illiterate leadership of the Polish command and the hurray and patriotic mood of the population before the war, with the complete silence of the Polish allies. Despite the fact that the Polish campaign was studied by representatives of the military intelligence services of many countries, no one has drawn the right conclusions from it. The French, the British, the Russians and the Americans were all victims of a reassessment of their own forces and succumbed to complacency. To make them so big and strong some Germans (or Japs) attacked ... Never in my life! But they attacked, and suddenly it turned out that such big and strong (Americans, British, Russians, French ...) were absolutely not ready for war and paid for it at a very high price. Sometimes exorbitant.

But the German command did not take any lessons from the past campaign. It was after Poland that Hitler believed in the absolute infallibility of the military doctrine of the Third Reich and the reliability of the Wehrmacht military machine. And the tested template “went into circulation” throughout all subsequent campaigns, and when it was time to relearn, there was not enough time for that.
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  1. Greyfox
    Greyfox April 10 2013 09: 04 New
    14
    The Poles slipped on their arrogance and fell on their statehood.
    1. FC SKIF
      FC SKIF April 10 2013 11: 17 New
      +4
      They thought. that Poland is a size, they tried to pursue their multi-vector policy (something like modern Ukraine). According to the article, the question is: if, as the author writes, the Poles desperately defended themselves, then why is the loss ratio so horrible. I remember an article about the memories of a Pole who killed with a shovel (!) During a war with a hundred Germans came across my eyes. So, about the heroism of the Poles is not taken from Polish sources. And then they took Berlin with the support of the Russians.
      1. Sakhalininsk
        Sakhalininsk April 10 2013 13: 22 New
        +2
        Quote: FC Skif
        They thought. that Poland is a quantity


        laughing but the sworn and Teutons proved to arrogant psheks that they are only residents of the territory ideally suited for the maneuvers of the Russian and German tank troops.
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 April 10 2013 16: 13 New
          +5
          Quote: Greyfox
          The Poles slipped on their arrogance and fell on their statehood.

          The Poles thought that England and France would defend them, but they were deeply mistaken, these powers were not up to her, they simply merged her in the hope of sending Hitler to the east. The Polish high command began draping into England from the first minutes of the war, so there was no talk of any organized defense, all the more you can recall the famous Polish cavalry attack on German tanks ...
          1. augur
            augur April 10 2013 16: 20 New
            +8
            Yes, you forget this tale about the attack of the Polish cavalry on German tanks, for a long time everyone knows that this was not the case. I do not regret the Poles, but do not make idiots out of them!
            1. opkozak
              opkozak April 10 2013 21: 58 New
              0
              было
              Polish lancers were told that the tanks are plywood
              watch the video
              1. opkozak
                opkozak April 10 2013 22: 35 New
                0
                [media = http: //video.yandex.ua/#search? text = release% 20dovzhenko & where = all & fil
                mId = RxS1TPEDs3M]
                In the book of memoirs High Castle, Stanislav Lem wrote that the level of the military among the Poles was like preparing for the Prussian-French war. Yes, the best for the year 1939 cavalry, each cavalryman had to be able to keep his horse on its hind legs. but there are no tanks, there are no tanks ....
              2. Snoop
                Snoop April 10 2013 23: 07 New
                +3
                Why so believe German propaganda? For a long time historians have chewed on how it was. The Polish Lancers stumbled upon a German infantry battalion on vacation, so they decided to break away :) The armored car, which was nearby, cut off the wheelhouse of German infantry. They shot at the Poles, those who lost several of the dead retreated.
                After the battle, the Germans still dragged the corpses of the Poles and removed their cut cabbage, then they showed reporters, they say, which Slavs are subhuman with drafts on perl tanks ... in general terms.
          2. Avenger711
            Avenger711 April 10 2013 20: 34 New
            -1
            It’s time to already know where this ridiculous myth comes from.
          3. Den_tw
            Den_tw April 10 2013 20: 40 New
            +1
            Where did you download the picture from? Give me a link.
        2. Petr_Sever
          Petr_Sever April 11 2013 00: 24 New
          -2
          Quote: Sakhalininets
          arrogant nonsense

          "Arrogant psheks", in contrast to the valiant Red Army, put up fierce resistance, and did not surrender en masse. The USSR saved vast territories and
          human resources at the 1st stages of the war.
          Unlike France and Poland, there was where to retreat and to whom to surrender.
      2. Alex
        Alex 28 September 2013 16: 03 New
        +4
        I remember an article about the memories of a Pole who killed with a shovel (!) During a war with a hundred Germans came across my eyes.

        And in Korean official history, it is quite seriously indicated that only thanks to the actions of partisan detachments Kim Il-sen of the Red Army managed to defeat the Japanese. In short, the smaller the six, the larger the number.
    2. Ekaterina Shtepa
      Ekaterina Shtepa 19 November 2018 13: 44 New
      0
      ... falling to statehood, smashed it to smithereens!
  2. hommer
    hommer April 10 2013 09: 22 New
    +8
    Good reasoned article. Plus.
    All the Anschluss and other actions of the Germans were not comparable with the Polish company in terms of acquiring combat experience and commanding troops as well as the headquarters of the Germans. The Wehrmacht, having gained this experience, was perhaps the best military machine in the world at that time.
    That's what an enemy our grandfathers had to fight with! And they succeeded, defeated the Nazis!
  3. Kaa
    Kaa April 10 2013 09: 22 New
    14
    The finest hour of Poland came in 1938. Germany demanded the transfer to the Reich of the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, whose population was predominantly German. The Czech government turned for help to its allies - France and the USSR. According to the agreement, the Soviet Union pledged to come to the aid of Czechoslovakia in case it was provided assistance from France, and Poland would allow the passage of troops through its territory. Fulfilling an allied duty, the USSR put on alert some of the two military districts with a total of up to forty divisions. However, the Poles flatly refused to let in Soviet units to help the Czechs.Polish Foreign Minister Jozef Beck, through his ambassador to Germany, reported to Hitler about the diplomatic work done:
    "1. The Government of the Republic of Poland states that it has paralyzed the possibility of intervention by the Soviets on the Czech question; 2. Over the past year, the Polish government has rejected four times the proposal to join the international intervention in defense of Czechoslovakia; 3. Poland’s immediate claims on this matter are limited to the Tieszyn Silesia region. ”
    On January 26, 1939, during a meeting with his colleague Ribbentrop, Jozef Beck bluntly stated that “Poland claims to be Soviet Ukraine and access to the Black Sea.” It was assumed that the rejection of Ukraine would follow the same pattern as in the case of the Sudetenland: first, a separatist movement is provoked, then the slogan of “self-determination” is put forward, then Germany demands to be freed by a military threat. the suffering Ukrainian people, and meanwhile the “world community” assented amicably.
    The Germans planned to use the pro-Nazi Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists as the “germ” of separatism, the real popularity of which in Ukraine they then greatly overestimated.
    It seemed to the Polish leadership that, as in the case of Czechoslovakia, all measures should be taken to prevent the USSR from participating in the European security system and leave the Soviet Union, which at that time was considered a weak state, alone with the Germans. On the one hand there will be a powerful Anglo-Franco-Polish bloc, on the other, a lonely USSR. Confidence that the Germans would choose precisely the “soviets” was given to the Poles by the already started military conflict of Japan (a German ally) and the USSR. In addition, starting in the fall of 1937, Hitler persistently repeated that expansion into the "Russian space" would be carried out bypassing Poland through the Baltic countries. Further, everything would become a matter of technology. Poland would not miss the opportunity to profit from the defeated side. A typical maneuver for "traditional politics." But the Poles were cruelly mistaken. In August 1939, the Germans proposed that the USSR sign an agreement on non-aggression. Convinced of the hypocrisy of Anglo-Polish diplomacy, the USSR agrees. The Soviet government decides to stay away from European squabbles and gain time to modernize the Red Army. In September 1939, Germany in a week's time swept away Poland, which imagined itself to be a great state. In June 1940, the Germans crushed the continent's strongest state - France. Until the last "Campaign to the East" there was one year.
    1. omsbon
      omsbon April 10 2013 10: 00 New
      +5
      Old folk wisdom says - DON'T SWEAT A PIT TO ANOTHER, YOU GO TO IT YOURSELF.
      Poland was digging and hit, it will start digging again!
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco April 10 2013 10: 17 New
        +5
        Popular wisdom says. "learns from his mistakes, but the smart one from others" True, not everyone succeeds. Well, Poland is a national feature. The case near Smolensk is proof of this.
  4. 101
    101 April 10 2013 10: 17 New
    0
    Poland, then we are only bigger. It’s also a small blood blow with a mighty blow It's a shame It was worth Germany to give herself a break and master what was captured after ten years ......
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 April 10 2013 16: 27 New
      +3
      And by the 1943 year, the USSR would have had 30 mechanized corps with T-34 and KV tanks and with everything necessary for supply and communication. And the Germans would have inserted that one ...
      1. mda
        mda April 10 2013 18: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: alicante11
        And by the 1943 year, the USSR would have had 30 mechanized corps with T-34 and KV tanks and with everything necessary for supply and communication. And the Germans would have inserted that one ...

        That is why in 1941 the Germans attacked the USSR
      2. 101
        101 April 11 2013 11: 04 New
        -2
        Well, the Germans would probably rest on their laurels. I think that industry would increase and the mob reserve with their superiority policy and their science was advanced. They multiplied armed and who would have a question
        1. Alex
          Alex 28 September 2013 16: 32 New
          +3
          and who would have a question

          Wouldn’t ... Only Russia can defeat Russia.
      3. andrew42
        andrew42 9 November 2018 15: 13 New
        0
        It would have been easier for us if the war had been delayed until the autumn of 1941. Ideally, it would have been in the spring of 1942. It would only get worse from then on. By 1943 the Germans and the British would have made it up officially - don't even go to a fortune-teller here. We would completely reformat France, more fully mobilize all of Europe. The industry of the Hitlerite European Union by 1943 would definitely have produced a qualitatively new technique, and not the advanced T1941 for 4. Britain and the French would zhahnul on us from the south. Both Turkey and Iran would enter the war. Hitler, with his ambitions, unwittingly broke the entire clear plan of the collective West's offensive against the USSR, fell off the leash. Here the political leadership of the country is a five. The military leadership of the Red Army - a two with a plus: the demonstrative unpreparedness for war turned out to be real, and the Abwehr knew all the mistakes of the military organization of the Red Army, and therefore the Germans were so cheerfully, without a doubt.
        1. Ekaterina Shtepa
          Ekaterina Shtepa 19 November 2018 13: 50 New
          0
          Why is there five for the political leadership of the USSR? For the inability to correctly identify the enemy or a coalition of opponents? Or for something else that we don’t know here?!?
    2. smile
      smile April 11 2013 17: 30 New
      +3
      101
      The Polish army scattered, losing 14-15 percent of its personnel. The war was fought in the best traditions of Polish miracle heroes -

      On the first day of the war, Polish President Moscitzky hid from Warsaw. On September 4, she began packing her bags, and on the 5th, the entire government escaped [174]. This was preceded by a directive which Marshal Rydz-Smigly, commander-in-chief of the Polish army, succeeding Pilsudski as dictator of Poland, gave to the Polish army. On September 3 (on the third day of the war, I remind you), he ordered the General Staff: “In connection with the current situation and the complex of problems that put the course of events on the order of the day, the axis of withdrawal of our armed forces should be oriented not just east, towards Russia, connected pact with the Germans, and to the southeast, towards the allied Romania and Hungary favorably referring to Poland ... ”[175]
      This order is striking not even because on the third day of the war it was not about the destruction of the erupted German columns and not even about the withdrawal of troops to the Narew-Wisla-San line, but about flight. It is amazing that the nook of the Polish territory near "allied Romania" (it was allied against the USSR, and not against Germany!) Was barely 120 km wide and had neither natural nor artificial defense lines. It was obviously not about preserving “the remnants of statehood” there, but about escaping. And from a military point of view, this order is amazing. In order to withdraw the Polish divisions from the western borders to the southeast, they had to move along the front of the advancing German 10th and 14th armies, which went north-east to Warsaw. And the Polish divisions of the East. Prussia had to retreat south to meet the advancing Germans. From the first day of the war, the Germans sent air reconnaissance in alarm whether trenching operations were being carried out at the Narev-Vistula-San line [176], but, as you can see, their worries turned out to be in vain: the Poles immediately began to drape to Romania. And on September 11, information already reached the German General Staff from the Romanians: “The transfer of Polish personnel soldiers to Romania has begun” [177]. And the question remains, why did Rydz-Smigly give this stupid, impossible order? There is only one answer: he and the government needed a reason to flee. If the troops retreated to the Narew-Vistula-San line and secured themselves there, and the “most infamous of the infamous” escaped to Romania, what would it look like? And so the Polish cowards could safely drape under the pretext that, to Romania, they say, the whole army is retreating.

      And compare this with what the Germans met with us. This is despite the fact that the Poles completed the mobilization BEFORE the Germans (although they languidly harbor that there were only about one and a half million of them), and according to Polish boastful statements, the wartime army has three million (with a population of 35 million). .. although the fact that the Polish general mobilization was begun much earlier than the Germans, they can’t disown in any way .... and you still have, forgive me, the audacity to compare the Wehrmacht’s Polish walk with a meat grinder on the Eastern Front ... a passion for tolerance can lead to quite far from the truth ....
  5. Canep
    Canep April 10 2013 10: 30 New
    +6
    Now Ukraine behaves in much the same way as Poland in 1937-39. In the event of a serious aggravation of relations between Russia and the West, Ukraine will not be needed either one or the other, with all that it implies ...
    1. Ekaterina Shtepa
      Ekaterina Shtepa 19 November 2018 13: 51 New
      0
      Nobody needs Ukraine now.
  6. augur
    augur April 10 2013 10: 38 New
    -14
    Quote: hommer
    Good reasoned article. Plus.
    All the Anschluss and other actions of the Germans were not comparable with the Polish company in terms of acquiring combat experience and commanding troops as well as the headquarters of the Germans. The Wehrmacht, having gained this experience, was perhaps the best military machine in the world at that time.

    What kind of experience are we talking about? Even in this article, in my opinion it’s pretty empty, we are talking about 18 days, what kind of combat experience can be gained in such a short period of time? Before the attack on the USSR, the Wehrmacht had practically no combat experience.
    1. Kaa
      Kaa April 10 2013 10: 56 New
      +4
      Quote: Augur
      Before the attack on the USSR, the Wehrmacht had practically no combat experience.

      France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Luftwaffe -Britain?
      1. augur
        augur April 10 2013 11: 25 New
        0
        Poland 18 days
        France 40 days
        Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg 18 days
        Denmark, Norway 60 days
        Yugoslavia 11 days
        Britain generally has a separate conversation., There were also Greece, Crete, etc. even less time
        Total about half a year of pseudo-fighting, and with a limited contingent.

        Do you consider this a combat experience? These were walks under the moon for the Wehrmacht, hence the dizziness of success.

        The Red Army Hasan 10 days
        Khalkhin Gol 4 months
        Finnish for more than 3 months and that no one shouts that the Red Army had a huge combat experience.

        For some reason, everyone considers the Wehrmacht’s combat experience a period of 2 years, from 1939 to 1941, as if they had not gone out of combat for all these two years, with all of their composition.
        It turns out that if our limited contingent in the DRA was 10 years old, what kind of enormous combat experience did the SA have?
        1. Sirocco
          Sirocco April 10 2013 12: 10 New
          +3
          You forgot to mention the war in Spain. There we gained not a bad experience.
          1. Bigriver
            Bigriver April 10 2013 13: 28 New
            +3
            Quote: Sirocco
            You forgot to mention the war in Spain. There we gained not a bad experience.

            The regular Red Army was not there.
            Civil war with low troop densities and with all the ensuing features.
            Experience 50x50 - positive / negative.
          2. Alex
            Alex 28 September 2013 16: 41 New
            +4
            Quote: Sirocco (1)
            You forgot to mention the war in Spain. There we gained not a bad experience.

            As well as Hassan and Halkin-Gol. Japan is not Denmark, and not even Poland.
        2. hommer
          hommer April 10 2013 13: 22 New
          +6
          augur
          What kind of experience are we talking about?

          Finnish for more than 3 months and that no one shouts that the Red Army had a huge combat experience.


          The article is about the actions of the Wehrmacht, for starters.

          During the campaign, German troops, according to various estimates, lost from 8 082 to 16 343 killed, 27 280 - 34 136 wounded, 320-5029 people missing [58]. During the Polish company, German troops lost 319 armored vehicles, 195 guns and mortars, 11 cars and motorbikes, consumed a significant amount of ammunition: 584 thousand 339 mm shells, 150 thousand 1448 mm shells, 105 thousand 450 mm shells, 75 thousand 480-mm mortar mines [81], 59 thousand air bombs, over 400 million rounds and 406 million grenades [1,2].
          For the first time, German troops fought in an area with an underdeveloped paved road network compared to Western Europe.
          As a result of the campaign, several meetings were held at OKV and at other levels, which resulted in adjustments in many staff standards, in calculating the need for fuel, ammunition, etc.
          What do you call an empty article unfounded?
          Prove or write better than the author, we will be happy to read.
        3. Bigriver
          Bigriver April 10 2013 13: 25 New
          +8
          Quote: Augur

          The Red Army Hasan 10 days
          Khalkhin Gol 4 months
          Finnish for more than 3 months and that no one shouts that the Red Army had a huge combat experience.
          For some reason, everyone considers the Wehrmacht's combat experience a period of 2 years ...

          Hassan is a corps operation.
          Khalkhin Gol - army operation.
          Finnish - yes, strategic. But, due to the features of the theater, her experience was very peculiar, specific.
        4. alicante11
          alicante11 April 10 2013 16: 36 New
          +2
          Don't you understand. Experience is determined not by the days of the war, but by the number of the defeated enemy. And the shorter the time, the more valuable the experience is. And the experience of the Red Army from Khalkhin Gol and the Winter War only made Stalin and Co. scratch their turnips, asking each other a rhetorical question: "But how are we going to fight with such an army?"
          1. augur
            augur April 10 2013 17: 57 New
            -3
            I do not agree at the root! It turns out the Americans dropping atomic bombs on Japan and destroying a bunch of people have gained invaluable experience in warfare in a couple of hours? and the Red Army in the war with the Finns did not reach what?
            1. Rider
              Rider April 10 2013 23: 07 New
              +3
              I do not agree at the root!

              You do not agree that the WAR of the German army did not gain combat experience?
              can you disagree with the fact that military exercises are conducted in order to train troops?

              the Wehrmacht WAR was trained to conduct operations by large masses of troops, to a strategic depth.
              the blitzkrieg theory was being tested, a system of interaction between various branches of the armed forces was worked out, and the supply and communications system improved.
              the headquarters learned to respond quickly to rapid changes in the situation.
              and judging by the low losses, they did it very well.

              that the Germans then demonstrated, first in the west, and then to us.
              1. augur
                augur April 11 2013 07: 05 New
                0
                Experience is determined not by the days of war, but by the number of the defeated enemy.

                I do not agree with this opinion, and not with the fact that when fighting, combat experience is gained.
                read carefully
                1. Rider
                  Rider April 11 2013 11: 00 New
                  0
                  post flew below

                  there (to which I replied) you claimed that the Wehrmacht had no combat experience, since its Polish and Western companies were fleeting.

                  so I pointed you to your error.
              2. Alex
                Alex 28 September 2013 16: 51 New
                +4
                Quote: Rider
                You do not agree that the WAR of the German army did not gain combat experience?

                Acquired. Adequate to the strength of a defeated opponent.

                blitzkrieg theory

                Exactly, only this, in fact, adventurous military theory, and ANYTHING more. No developments in case something breaks down in this car (which, in fact, happened), that the war will begin on two fronts, that intelligence data may turn out to be, to put it mildly, not accurate ... Yes, you never know what else .

                that the Germans then demonstrated, first in the west, and then to us.

                Especially on the Kursk, on the Dnieper, in Belarus, in Berlin. And how beautiful and powerful they looked in Nuremberg!

                If the Klitschko brothers all the time only put big booties from the pub, then they would not see their champion belts, like their ears without a mirror. The Germans, if only to get real experience, would not have to ask Keitel in surprise when signing the protocol of unconditional surrender: "What, and they (that is, the French) did we lose too? "
            2. Bigriver
              Bigriver April 11 2013 04: 37 New
              0
              Quote: Augur
              ... and the Red Army in the war with the Finns did not reach what?

              I got to the point of my unpreparedness for a great European war.
              The war diagnosed our army and the diagnosis was bad.
              Ill-considered, haste, groundless decisions of the military leadership, staffs.
              Poor preparation, training of personnel, inability to conduct close combat. Ineffective interaction of infantry with artillery, tanks and aircraft.
              Very poor training of commanders in the platoon-company link.
              Etc. etc.
              The most valuable positive experience was gained in breaking the enemy’s long-term defense. This experience was successfully used by the Red Army at the final stage of the Second World War.
        5. Beck
          Beck April 10 2013 19: 57 New
          +4
          No politics. The Polish army in 1939 was weak, not equipped, the command had no experience. Poland itself then still did not stand, as it should, on its feet as a state, after 1917.

          But the Poles themselves had a fighting spirit and a desire to fight fascism. From other conquered countries of Europe, no one took part in the battles as much as the Poles. These are Polish units in the Allied army, and Polish units in the Red Army. Only the Czechs formed a corps in the ranks of the Red Army. And the partisan movement in Poland was developed, smaller than the Yugoslav one, but incomparably more than the "comfortable" French and Italian. And other countries were more engaged in "leaflets".
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak April 10 2013 21: 14 New
            +1
            Beck "Without politics. The Polish army in 1939 was weak, not equipped, the command did not have experience. Poland itself did not yet rise, as it should, on its feet as a state, after 1917."
            They simply lived a victory on the Vistula in 1920. We thought it would be the same with nemchuru. It didn’t work out ...
          2. smile
            smile April 11 2013 17: 53 New
            +4
            Beck
            Accidentally put you a plus ..
            Well. firstly, in terms of strength it was the 4th army of Europe, and secondly, it went through the peak of its development - they exhausted the full industrial potential built by them by the Russians, did not develop industry themselves, killed the economy by reluctance to have trade and economic ties with the USSR, why -thinking that this will weaken us ... :))) idietten ....
            Further, the Poles fought more for the Nazis than against both the armies - and with us and in Africa ... there were more than 60 thousand Polish prisoners, 12 thousand more than Italians .... this is considering the fact that from the age of 43 they didn’t even get a prisoner of war prisoner’s registration card - they were immediately sent to the Army of Poland (of course, with the exception of seasoned servants of the Old Man, to the Hitler, and, of course, no one counted as prisoners of war bandits from the AK), there also seem to be thousands of Frenchmen to De Gaulle sent one and a half ... The partisan movement was basically Mr. Communists, and the Craiova Army - stood with a gun at their feet (I hope you know that this expression is a quote from the orders of the London government) and was distinguished mainly by squabbles with their Communists, and because they competed with Bandera a friend’s village ... everything !!!!! At least you read the Poles themselves - you don’t have to write tolerant nonsense ... or at least talk to the Poles ... with any ...
            1. Beck
              Beck April 11 2013 18: 34 New
              0
              Quote: Augur
              And which of you to believe?


              Respected. This is your personal business. You have your own head, compare with your luggage and draw your own conclusions. On the site they only post their opinions. And people themselves evaluate.

              Quote: smile
              Well. firstly, in terms of strength it was the 4th army of Europe, and secondly, it went through the peak of its development - they exhausted the full industrial potential built by them by the Russians, did not develop industry themselves, killed the economy by reluctance to have trade and economic ties with the USSR, why believing that this will weaken us ... :)


              Poland with 20 pl Klnets 30 years was not industrially developed, against the backdrop of the leading states of Europe. The defense industry, methods of command and control of troops by the beginning of the war did not work out. And what prisoners of war do you think? Those privates who surrendered to the Red Army in 1939. If there were 40 thousand officers who were shot in Katyn, then there could well be 60 thousand ordinary soldiers.

              Commander of the Polish forces in France was General Wladyslaw Sikorski. At the end of 1939, the Polish 1st and 2nd Infantry Divisions were formed.
              In Norway, the Polish brigade successfully stormed the Germans occupied

              In addition to the infantry, the Polish Armed Forces in France had the 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade under the command of General Stanislav Maciek
              The Polish 3rd and 4th Infantry Divisions in June 1940 were in the formation stage and did not take part in the battles. In total, at the end of June 1940, the Polish armed forces in France totaled about 85 thousand.
              In April 1940, the Polish Carpathian Rifle Brigade was formed in Syria under the command of Colonel Stanislav Kopansky
              In October 1941, in England, the 4th Infantry Brigade was reorganized into the 1st Separate Parachute Brigade (under the command of Colonel Sosnowski). In February 1942, the formation of the Polish 1st Panzer Division (under the command of General Maciek) began.
              July 22, 1943 Polish units were converted into the 2nd Polish Corps as part of the British Army.
              On December 7, 1943, the British command decided to send the 2nd Polish Corps to Italy, formed from the Anders army.
              1. Beck
                Beck April 11 2013 18: 48 New
                +1
                Quote: Beck
                On December 7, 1943, the British command decided to send the 2nd Polish Corps to Italy, formed from the Anders army.

                The 1st Panzer Division (commander - General Stanislav Machek) - was landed in July 1944 in Normandy and incorporated into the 2nd Canadian Corps.
                In November 1939, a naval cooperation agreement was signed between the Polish Navy and the British Navy. Soon after, the Polish naval forces leased several ships from Britain - 2 cruisers (Dragon and Konrad), 6 destroyers Garland, Piorun, Krakowyak, Kuyavyak, Shlenzak, Orkan ”) And 3 submarines (“ Falcon ”,“ Yast-Shemb ”,“ Dzik ”). And the Poles fought on them.
                The battle for Britain (July-October 1940) was attended by 145 Polish fighter pilots who shot down 201 enemy aircraft
                In the summer of 1940, 2 Polish bombing squadrons were formed, later the total number of Polish squadrons in Britain reached 15: of which 10 were fighter, 4 bombing and 1 artillery guidance squadrons. Polish pilots bombed Germany (15 thousand tons of bombs), including Berlin, the Ruhr and Hamburg, and dropped weapons and ammunition for partisans in Poland (426 sorties) and other countries (909 sorties).
                In total, during the war, Polish pilots made 73,5 thousand sorties from Britain. They shot down 760 German planes and 190 V-1 missiles, sank 2 submarines.

                As of July 22, 1944, the total number of the 1st Army of the Polish Army in the Red Army was 100 thousand military personnel (including over 60 thousand in military units and subunits), in addition, in the Soviet military educational institutions training of 2554 officers and over 600 pilots. In service with the 1st Army of the Polish Army were 61 units. rifles and machine guns; 626 machine guns and PTR; 3714 pcs. guns and mortars; 1513 tanks, self-propelled guns and armored vehicles; 217 cars; 3011 tractors; 219 motorcycles; 171 aircraft and 66 radio stations

                Smile, so that the hand you put the plus does not dry out, lubricate it with some kind of ointment.
                1. Beck
                  Beck April 11 2013 19: 09 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Beck
                  Smile, so that the hand you put the plus does not dry out, lubricate it with some kind of ointment.


                  And Smile.

                  Army of Ludov. Used by the USSR.

                  The total number of ALs was about 55 thousand people, including 11 thousand soldiers in the combat units and partisan detachments.
                  During 1944, units of the Ludova Army conducted 904 combat operations (including 120 major battles, 370 operations on railways and 50 operations on roads and road structures); destroyed 79 highway and railway bridges and 55 railway stations, organized the crash of 322 trains; destroyed over 19 thousand Nazis, 24 tanks, 191 cars, 3 aircraft, 465 steam locomotives and 4000 wagons.

                  Aomiya Craiova.
                  The AK possessed the greatest forces in the summer of 1944, when it reached its maximum number over the entire period of its existence: it numbered a maximum of 380 thousand people of all ages (including women), including about 10 officers, 756 cadets (podhoruni), 7506 sergeants (non-commissioned officers)
                  In general, from January 1, 1941 to June 30, 1944, within the framework of the current armed struggle, AK units and subordinates, according to their own data, derailed 732 trains, set fire to 443 vehicles, destroyed about 4,3 thousand vehicles, burned 130 warehouses with weapons and equipment, damaged 19 thousand wagons and about 6,9 thousand locomotives, set fire to 1,2 thousand gas tanks, blew up 40 railway bridges, destroyed 5 oil wells, froze 3 large blast furnaces, carried out about 25 thousand sabotage shares in military factories, made about 5,7 thousand poku genocide against the Germans and the Poles who collaborated with them, released prisoners from 16 prisons

                  And I do not share, in the context of the struggle against fascism, these partisans on the good and the bad. This is all partisan Poles.
                  1. smile
                    smile April 12 2013 18: 31 New
                    +2
                    Beck
                    I will answer briefly - 60 thousand captured Poles are those who fought against us in the ranks of the Wehrmacht in arms from 1941 to 1945. The almost 3000000 that we took at 39 were mostly sent home. By the way, the Polish government from London declared war on us in October 1939. They began to send gangs to us in Ukraine. Belarus ... we simply did not have the right to release those — about 80 thousand prisoners — the war is on.
                    Further, you are a very clever person, therefore I recommend a very clever book - Shvets V. Katyn. The modern history of the issue., The author is one of the techies who developed our position in the European Court when tales about our involvement in the shooting in the Goat Mountains were declared bankrupt .. .not enough - read Mukhin. Anti-Russian meanness. This is a less academic publication. up to a very evidentiary, albeit abusive, main value - in this book the position of the Poles and their evidence base are well reflected :)))) After that we will talk about Katyn. As long as you don’t know either our - or the Polish position, therefore, it’s inconvenient to argue with you ... you really don’t know the position of the Poles - for example, you said about 40 thousand shot ... and the Poles consider 21 thousand 900 with copecks - the rest died ..... by the way, in total we took about 39 thousand Polish officers in 15 ... well, I won’t scoff at you - you are a smart, good, albeit naive person ... please read kigi, huh? Beg.
                  2. Alex
                    Alex 28 September 2013 20: 29 New
                    +4
                    And they did not fly to the moon? Why, Poland, after all, as everyone knows, the birthplace of elephants.

                    But seriously, I was always touched by the figures of resistance to the Nazis by citizens of countries that lost the war with record speed. However, it is not surprising - all this is the fruit of the afternoon. Even Y. Pshimanovsky with his immortals "Four tankmen and a dog" fit into the theme.
              2. Alex
                Alex 28 September 2013 20: 23 New
                +3
                Becku
                And why all this enumeration of the number of Poles in various parts of the globe? What does this prove or disprove? Just statistics.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 28 September 2013 21: 18 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Alex
                  And why all this enumeration of the number of Poles in various parts of the globe? What does this prove or disprove? Just statistics.


                  If they read carefully, they would not ask unnecessary questions.

                  This I cited data to Smila and his ilk who claim that the Poles are completely worthless warriors, bad people and did not fight fascism at all, except for two weeks. If you have the same opinion, then the top comment is for you.
            2. semyon12345
              semyon12345 13 August 2013 12: 41 New
              -1
              I ask without insults to the side of the Poles the kraev army fought better than the communists. And the communists constantly persecuted them in their own country.
            3. semyon12345
              semyon12345 13 August 2013 12: 43 New
              0
              You are some kind of racist or communist.
        6. Snoop
          Snoop April 10 2013 23: 11 New
          +1
          Local armed conflicts are one thing, full-scale war is another.
        7. smile
          smile April 11 2013 17: 41 New
          +2
          augur
          Do you want me to guess where you got such statements from .... RESOURCE! ... Guessed? I guessed, I know ... because only Rezun, the only one (well, later hangers-on like a whipman appeared) raised such rubbish to the banner ... well, what he himself. such and such a banner .. Not a single decent person, much less a historian, even being our enemy, did not begin to carry such a heresy - they were afraid of the inevitable shame ... well, you rezunists, apparently, do not get used to it ... :)))))
          Here, so that you couldn’t see the crap, you should read Halder, he, of course, like any of the beaten Nazi generals, shuts himself off and becomes poor, but clearly shows the formation of the Wehrmacht and its transformation into the best military machine until 1943 ....
          1. augur
            augur April 11 2013 18: 22 New
            -2
            Dear, answer one question: why does everyone who remembers the writer Suvorov strive to demonstrate their "erudition"? Do you think that nobody knows his real name? But for some reason, in the main, in the publications they do not name Stalin-Dzhugashvili, Lenin-Ulyanov, Trotsky -Bronstein, Yavov Svedlov-Yeshua-Solomon, etc. They write simply: Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky. I do not compare Suvorov with them, God forbid, it is just considered to be a special chic to show some knowledge, yeah, but I alone know that he is Rezun!
            I hasten to upset you, I am not a Suvorov fanatic, I overdo it a lot, but I am not going to call his books heresy. If you have read ... Or are you one of those who ".. have not read, but I condemn"
            As for the dope: you and I did not drink to the Brudershaft, henceforth I ask you to refrain from such statements, and the impression that you are here from the cabmen’s site, other opponents are much more educated.
            P.S. There are a lot of followers, Solonin for example
            1. smile
              smile April 11 2013 22: 23 New
              +3
              augur
              Colleague, I hate to smear such a surname with a cutter..you mzvmnmte ... Regarding his impudent deliberate lie, I advise you to read "Rodent" How Viktor Suvorov Composed a History ". Most of his books are analyzed in detail in the book, shown in detail. that he could not help but misinterpret a single quote, the military-technical aspects of his fabrications are considered .. a lot of links .. written in his corporate style ..
              and I read his books .. everything .. the enemy needs to know in person ... :)))
              be sure to read the little book .. useful, you will not expose yourself ... so to speak, an ignoramus :)))
              corned beef and bunichi. unfortunately - from the same garbage dump with which, not wanting to be dishonored, they don’t want to have anything in common, even hostile historians are hostile to us ..
              I will refrain from harsh statements in case you refrain from lying and stupid statements .... because to understand the fact that our runaway is brazenly lying enough to have average intelligence, average knowledge and just a desire to understand, and not joyfully take on any heresy, if only it would smear with dirt our history, our country, you and me ... for this I take my leave ...
              think, maybe you have earned contempt, like those SMALL. fortunately, the followers of this traitor ...
              1. augur
                augur April 12 2013 05: 39 New
                -3
                I don’t think you are a colleague, I never stooped to insults from your opponents, but you behave like a merchant at Privoz, being rude and insulting everyone in a row. Or consider yourself the ultimate truth?
                Regarding Vladimir Gryzun - I have read it and you will not believe him, and Isaev, and Mukhin, and Meltyukhov, and Khmelnitsky, and many others, and even the Great and Terrible Zhukov G.K. with his immortal false opus "Memories and Reflections", and in the first edition, I generally try to read all the books about the history of the initial period of the Second World War.
                I do not greet Rodent, if only for the fact that his pseudonym is clearly taken with a mocking purpose, decent people do not do this. At the very beginning of his opus, he could not rise with a chair for 5 minutes from laughter at Bunich's numbers - "- the author, doubling the real number Soviet tanks and almost tripled the number of aircraft. "Let me ask you what the Rodent was laughing at?
                Bunich gives the following numbers; tags in the USSR in May 1941 27,5 thousand.
                airplanes 22 171
                According to the statistical collection No. 1 on 1.06.41 tanks 25932
                aircraft 24488. Where Bunich doubled and tripled?
                Or is your high intelligence and extensive knowledge not enough to compare?
                You, with the anger of a chain dog, grumble at the authors who do not agree with your vision of the story, so continue on, I have lost interest in communicating with you, I don’t intend to engage in polemics with you anymore.
                PS Correctly the name is spelled Triandafillov, connoisseur, damn it ....
                1. smile
                  smile April 12 2013 18: 56 New
                  +2
                  augur
                  If you read everything that you have listed and nevertheless think that Rezun is a writer, especially Rezun writes the truth, then I have to inform you that he was not sharp enough in his assessment of you, bad .... I can’t add - the moderators will beat: ))) I am a gentle and condescending person and I can forgive almost everything ... except for militant stupidity. Apparently I'm used to it. that all the obvious suvorolyubs on this site have long been relished like a cat in their ... product ... they are ashamed and even trying to appear here try not to admit their shameful predilections :)))), and here you have two ! Believe me, communication with people like you can’t arouse interest in principle ... and it doesn’t matter - you’re such from meanness or from stupidity .... Goodbye ... by the way your only follower - I really kicked Cherkas ... he’s just even more moved on the basis of suvorolyubov - and did not deserve anything else, just walking around ... please go get cat food - it is very soothing after the attack of chain dogs ... :)))))
        8. Alex
          Alex 28 September 2013 16: 39 New
          +3
          Denmark, Norway 60 days

          Of these, Denmark itself is 1 (!) Day and several thousand spent cartridges.
          If the Red Army’s Liberation Campaign in Western Ukraine and Belarus - "military maneuvers during which live ammunition was sometimes fired"then the occupation of Denmark is generally a redeployment of troops. If this is a combat experience, then I am a Spanish pilot.
    2. Bigriver
      Bigriver April 10 2013 13: 15 New
      +5
      Quote: Augur

      What kind of experience are we talking about? .. we are talking about 18 days, what kind of combat experience can be gained in such a short period of time?

      - experience in integrated intelligence and analysis;
      - experience of misinformation and ideological preparation;
      - experience in planning operations and the entire campaign;
      - logistic experience, supply and preparation of theater of operations for the campaign;
      - experience in combat interaction between the combat arms;
      - experience in the use of weapons and military equipment.
      Few? laughing
    3. alicante11
      alicante11 April 10 2013 16: 33 New
      +1
      Experience in the defeat of the two strongest armies in Europe. Say what you like, but the Poles with their million guns were the second after the French (not counting the Germans themselves and the Red Army, which has little to do with Europe). Moreover, the defeat in the shortest possible time. For comparison, you can see how much our trampled on the "Mannerheim line". The Wehrmacht was the best military vehicle of the time. It is a pity that Hitler was such a stubborn moron that he poked his head towards us.
      1. augur
        augur April 11 2013 07: 09 New
        0
        Beck (3) KZ Yesterday, 19:57 PM ↑

        No politics. The Polish army in 1939 was weak, not equipped, the command had no experience. Poland itself then still did not stand, as it should, on its feet as a state, after 1917.

        And which of you to believe?
      2. Alex
        Alex 28 September 2013 20: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: alicante11 (4)
        not counting the Germans themselves and the Red Army, which has little relation to Europe

        Yeah, we've heard about "wild Asians" somewhere. Let me remember who spoke. Ang? No. Franc? No. Oh yes, I remembered! German! Even the doctor. Goebbels was called.

        For comparison, you can see how many of ours were stomping at the "Mannerheim line"

        Firstly, in Russian the names are capitalized (this is so, just in case). Secondly, the chances of NOT ONE fortified line were not taken, while all their ramparts (both Western and Dnieper) and lines crossed over like ditches.

        It is a pity that Hitler was such a stubborn moron that he stuck to us.

        And what do you think an intelligent person would do? For example, I simply do not have any behaviors. Well, not counting not to come to power at all and not to prepare for war with anyone.
  7. Cherkas
    Cherkas April 10 2013 10: 57 New
    -16
    England and France gave Czechoslovakia to the mercy of the Germans Hungarians and Poles. In addition, the USSR worked closely with Germany and did not plan to provide any assistance to Czechoslovakia. Therefore, it was impossible to justify the leadership of the USSR when it divided Poland, the invasion of Finland and ultimatums to the Baltic countries could not be justified. In fact, Germany and the USSR of the two countries that had been preparing for the re-partition of Europe for decades and actively helped each other and the war would in any case have started between them sooner or later by one or the other side, the ideology of communism did not provide for other options and showed it with all its actions.
    1. Greyfox
      Greyfox April 10 2013 11: 25 New
      11
      Nonsense. The USSR was ready to come to the aid of Czechoslovakia, cooperation with Germany began in 1939, when Stalin was convinced that Britain and France were spitting in the outstretched hand. Read what the USSR offered Benes in 1938 and what it offered the Anglo-French at the Moscow talks in 1939 ( where these poor fellows sent nothing decisive "sixes").
      Your knowledge of history is very superficial.
      1. augur
        augur April 10 2013 11: 40 New
        -10
        The USSR was not going to help Czechoslovakia. The Soviet excuse about the inability to come to the aid because of Poland's refusal to provide a corridor for kindergarten.

        YOU yourself would have missed, as the distinguished Kaa writes, 40 divisions of an unfriendly country armed to the teeth on your territory, and the rear support units, ammunition, fuel, food, spare parts, too, miss the replenishment in the division, fill all your railways with cargo for Soviet divisions?
        1. Greyfox
          Greyfox April 10 2013 11: 57 New
          +7
          Of course I didn’t miss it! I would also wait until an allied German power attacks my country, builds it up in concentration camps and cuts out 6 million Polish citizens! So the Poles thought that they would do all this in alliance with Adolf themselves in the USSR, because the great Poland at that time was very friendly with Hitler, preparing for a drink from Czechoslovakia and dreaming of going to the Black Sea (at the expense of the Soviet Union naturally). And Soviet divisions could break all these sweet nishtyaks. How could one allow these ugly Bolsheviks to offend their ally? But Hitler didn’t want to share anything with the Polish Untermensmen, which, because of their stupidity, they had no idea.
          Excuse the USSR about the inability to come to the rescue because of Poland’s refusal to provide a corridor for kindergarten
          Tell us kindergarteners how you would teleport our troops to Czechoslovakia without the consent of the Poles, and the day after the USSR confirmed its determination to help the Czechs
          English and French envoys to Czechoslovakia told the Czechoslovak government that if it did not accept the Anglo-French proposals, the French government “would not fulfill the treaty” with Czechoslovakia. They also said the following: “If the Czechs unite with the Russians, the war can take on the character of a crusade against the Bolsheviks. Then it will be very difficult for the governments of England and France to stay away. "

          Oh how! Instead of defending Czechoslovakia under a treaty in an alliance with the USSR, they threatened both the Czechs and the Russians in alliance with Hitler with war! Such are the "kindergarten excuses."
          1. augur
            augur April 10 2013 13: 45 New
            -5
            To begin with, we will determine that the corridors from Poland were requested by Voroshilov on August 14, 1939 at the negotiations of the USSR, Great Britain and France.
            Here, I confess, I believed Kaa’s message, specified that I didn’t require the USSR from Poland corridors in 1938 to help the Czechs.

            Benesh appealed to Stalin for help on September 28. Czechoslovakia was sawn up on September 30, 1938. Stalin’s response to Benesh’s request came only on October 3.

            Under the agreement, if France refused to help the Czechs, the USSR also had the right to refuse to fulfill its obligations.

            It was not necessary to teleport troops. It was possible to organize airlift over an air bridge, for example, through the territory of Romania or as the most exotic version of the airborne troops. By the year 38, the Red Army had experience. It was enough to indicate the presence of Soviet troops. We also had no common borders with Spain, but that did not stop us from fighting there.
            1. Greyfox
              Greyfox April 10 2013 15: 00 New
              +4
              You probably don't know that Romania, together with Poland, were part of the Little Entente (the states that formed a "sanitary" cordon around the USSR). And relations with Romania were no better than with Poland, if only because the USSR openly declared that it did not recognize the annexation Bessarabia and considers it as its territory. Then the future "innocently affected" Poles fussed in advance and put pressure on Romania. If the same France put pressure on these two prostitute countries, then the issue would probably be resolved, but France turned out to be the third prostitute and "merged "Czechs with pimps from London.
              And I cannot consider your proposal for airlift as a joke, taking into account the capabilities of the BTA of that time and what would have to cross the airspace of the same Poland and Romania without permission (although Romania made it clear through France that it would turn a blind eye to the flight of Soviet aircraft above 3000 meters, because above the Romanian anti-aircraft artillery can not shoot)
              PS
              On September 19, shortly after receiving the Anglo-French demands, Benesh turned to the Soviet government with the question of whether the USSR would assist Czechoslovakia. The Soviet Union agreed to help Czechoslovakia not only on the basis of the mutual assistance pact, which provided for the participation of France, but also on the basis of the statute of the League of Nations. This meant that the USSR would render military aid to Czechoslovakia even without the participation of France, provided that Czechoslovakia itself would defend itself and ask for help from it.

              As you can see, nobody pulled to the last.
              1. augur
                augur April 10 2013 15: 40 New
                -2
                Dear opponent, Poland was not a member of the Small Entente (Yugoslavia, Romania, Czechoslovakia), a military alliance was concluded between Poland and Romania in 1921.

                Regarding the "prostitute country", I completely agree with you, on the one hand, to declare that he will not let the Soviet troops pass, and on the other hand, to pass it through the French ambassador, will close his eyes to the flight of the aircraft. Consequently, Romania was not going to take any action, neutrality was more important to it.

                If you weren’t dragged to the last, what did you answer only after Chekhov’s consent?

                As for the airlift, as you know, in the year 36 about 10.000 were airlifted during the exercises during the day.

                And also, change your mentor tone to the usual one, we kind of discuss, rather than teach each other the mind. Thanks in advance.
                1. Greyfox
                  Greyfox April 10 2013 16: 06 New
                  +7
                  The Czechs did not agree with the consent (as far as I remember). Benesh was also a prostitute, be healthy and prefer to merge your country. I emphasize on September 19 the USSR clearly answered his request. But you can’t be a big Czech than the Czechs themselves.
                  Now imagine that in the 1938 year you are transferring to the aviation realities there a distance much farther than the same 10 thousand paratroopers during the exercises, you need these planes to reach their destination elementarily, where to get so many navigators that would fly on an unfamiliar the route? How many planes could physically fly from the territory of the USSR to Czechoslovakia? Upon arrival, you need to service the planes, but the Czechs don’t have any technicians familiar with them, as well as spare parts. And as a result, apart from our main troops, we would have several thousand lightly armed paratroopers (potential prisoners can be considered) and a bunch of planes that cannot take off due to technical malfunctions in a country that itself did not want to defend itself.
                  PS Poland didn’t really belong to MA, but it had an agreement with Romania that you mentioned. True, Romanian prostitutes threw Polish prostitutes .....
                  1. augur
                    augur April 10 2013 17: 48 New
                    -2
                    At 12.30 on September 30, 1938, after the message of the Czechoslovak embassy in Moscow, "there is no news", the Czech government decided to accept the conditions imposed on it.
                    From the territory of the USSR through Romania to Czech. Judging by the map (poor quality map, I may be mistaken) by air, km 300 no more. I don’t think that there would be a lot of malfunctioning aircraft for such a short flight. Even you do not need to refuel with fuel on the way back, and who prevents technicians from moving along with the equipment.
                    By 1937, there were 50.000 military pilots and navigators in the USSR, not counting civilian navigators.
                    According to the state of 1936, there were 19 45 mm cannons, 27 mortars, 90 light machine guns in the airborne brigade, in addition, the aircraft of that time were capable of transporting armored vehicles too, so I exaggerate the prisoners.
                    In 1942, over 6 nights, 7000 people were transferred by 64 PS-84 and TB-3 aircraft, this is in wartime, to the rear of the Wehrmacht!
                    And our Czechs, too, would not act in the open field, and would not act behind enemy lines, but in conjunction with the Czech army.
                    1. Greyfox
                      Greyfox April 11 2013 08: 45 New
                      +1
                      Without any mentor tone, I ask you to really assess the capabilities of the BTA as of the 1938 year. As it was not there. The main horse of the Airborne Forces were TB-3, capricious airplanes (as well as all aviation equipment of that time). PS-84 (he Lee-2) in 1938 was not there, as well as Lend-Lease C-47. In total, TB-3 was released around 800. Considering the realities suitable for flights, I think (this is just my fabrication!) Was in all parts from the Far East to Poland no more than 500. And they had to be assembled, prepared for departure, cover airfields of concentration and destroy by the people and air defense, to deliver the paratroopers there, the service staff of the aircraft and cargo, and for everything about all 10 days. Evaluate for yourself - is it real?
                      The 1942 airborne assaults of the year (Vyazemsky operation) were badly prepared. The German airborne reconnaissance revealed concentration and destroyed part of the planes on the ground (this is why it is important to cover airfields). They dropped out for several days and, due to poor preparation of the flyers, they were scattered over a huge area, after which they had to fight with light weapons behind enemy lines. So all the difficulties of the 1938 of the year that I wrote above happened in reality in 1942 (I note that in this case we are talking about landing, and not about transferring from an airfield to an airfield, BUT! Aviation still worked on its own country, and not flying on unknown route)
                      1. augur
                        augur April 11 2013 18: 01 New
                        +1
                        1. TB3 was produced by 1938 by 820. The plane was considered one of the most reliable. I don’t know where you found the whims, I fought the whole Great Patriotic War, flew right up to 1949. I don’t know how many of them were at the border of Bessarabia, but I think that according to tradition, most of the troops were at the western borders. Therefore, I think that at least a third of the planes were there, 250-300 pieces. When capturing Bessarabia, 91 were used, 63 Baltic states seemed to be enough.
                        At a speed of 177 km / h they could do 2 sorties per day.
                        2. Cover fighters and air defense. I don’t think that there was no fighter aircraft nearby. And why do we need this cover in principle? Romania made it clear that it would not impede the passage of our aircraft, we did not violate the airspace of other countries, were at war with anyone, who should we be afraid of? Following your logic, when we are sending cargo to Syria, we also need to organize cover air defense and fighters?
                        3.10 days real or not? Tell me, what kind of landing and BTA, which is 10 days short, to transfer a certain grouping to a ridiculous distance in peacetime, in the absence of enemy resistance, without landing, from the airfield to the airfield? In January 1989, our BTA regiment, consisting of 20 aircraft, was transferred from the Far East to Turkmenistan to withdraw troops from the DRA within XNUMX hours. The task would have been to transport troops, it took not much more time. I agreed on the speed of the others, the carrying capacity, too, but at that time no one was planning to transfer troops from the Far East.
                        4. Regarding work "on your own strange, and not flying along an unknown route" - what does an unknown route mean? Navigator for what, why was he taught? Do you seriously think that over your country, but under the attacks of fighters, it is easier to fly with anti-aircraft fire than in peacetime, in a clear sky, from an airfield to an airfield? And do you seriously think that for our navigators who served their first years, the flight from the Far East to Mary was known as five fingers? Nothing flew all.
                        5.A, you know, we have practically exchanged places. They have messed me up here because I said that the USSR was not going to help the Czechs.
                        You claim that the USSR was ready and promised help, you refer to the answer of the USSR of September 20, 1938:
                        -SSSR will help immediately and effectively if France remains true to the pact
                        -if France refuses, then after applying to the League of Nations Chekhov. The Czechs did not apply, then they themselves are to blame, we wash our hands, right?
                        Then explain to me such a case: 20.09.38/20/XNUMX the USSR already knew that Poland would not let troops in, Romania too, you reject the air bridge as a utopia, explain HOW the USSR was going to help the Czechs? What guided the leaders of the USSR giving promises of assistance on September XNUMX?
                        It turns out you are on my side!
                        Why, then, are you talking to me, dear citizens, or is it such a greeting to all the newcomers to this site?
                      2. Greyfox
                        Greyfox April 11 2013 20: 13 New
                        +1
                        I’ll answer for the last time, otherwise the topic has run out. I consider the airspace a utopia. Another thing is that it was possible to relocate the Air Force to support the Czechs from the air. According to my assumptions, Moscow was counting on the Czechs fighting for real. Then it would be possible to present Romania’s ultimatum and to hold troops even without her consent (without declaring war so that Polish prostitutes have no reason to fulfill a treaty, like, we’ll just go through here to curb the aggressor). One could solve the issue of Bessarabia in passing. But seeing the Czechs self-draining and the behavior of the French, naturally no one in their right mind began to harness for them.
                        And I’m directly convinced that in this situation, Poland joined the war against Germany (not immediately, of course, but if the Germans began to rake the Lyuli not childishly) in order to snatch all those pieces that she received after 1945, because the pieces were clearly tastier than the crumbs from the division of Czechoslovakia.
                      3. augur
                        augur April 12 2013 05: 47 New
                        0
                        I agree that the topic has run out. You are right that the relocation of the Air Force was planned: - The People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR, march K. Voroshilov, reported to Stalin about his readiness to send 4 aviation brigades (8 aviation regiments) to Czechoslovakia consisting of 548 combat aircraft, naming specific units, basing areas indicating the number and types of aircraft in each of them.
                        Regarding the ultimatum, I don’t think so, they presented and went without the consent of the country? Why then did Poland ask for the corridor?
                        I do not expect an answer.
                        It was nice talking to you. All the best.
                    2. andrew42
                      andrew42 9 November 2018 15: 32 New
                      0
                      Augur, your owl has long burst. Stop pulling, take pity on the globe.
              2. Black
                Black April 10 2013 20: 55 New
                +4
                Quote: Greyfox
                True, Romanian prostitutes threw Polish prostitutes .....

                This is nice !!!!
                T.N. "The world community is trying to hang all dead dogs on the USSR, and we did not lag behind in the 90s.
                Europe of the 30s - a cauldron of selfish interests, the Germans played on that, and cooked steep porridge.
                We just ruined the mass by the 45th.
        2. Alex
          Alex 28 September 2013 21: 13 New
          +3
          We also had no common borders with Spain, but that did not stop us from fighting there.

          The maritime border is kind of like not a border, so what?
          But with Czechoslovakia it was really difficult, it was somehow inaccurate without a political decision.
    2. Snoop
      Snoop April 10 2013 23: 15 New
      0
      It is strange, but what then led the troops in the western military districts to full combat readiness? Formed a group of troops. Even when Poland refused to provide a corridor, they decided to transfer personnel, weapons, and ammunition by air to TB-3. But alas ... the cheeks surrendered.
      On the other hand, would you like the Red Army units then to cross across the border? Without the consent of Poland?))))
    3. Alex
      Alex 28 September 2013 21: 07 New
      +4
      Poland is not the most important player on the political scene of the 1938 year. If England and France WANTED to save Czechoslovakia, they themselves would not have pacified Hitler, and Poland would have been forced to miss troops. (To do difficult and ungrateful work with the hands of Russia, and then to rake everything to oneself is a long-standing English tradition).

      Forty divisions are by no means an obligatory quantity. Half would be enough (the Czechs also had an army). And the Czech army itself would be enough to fight back. Benesh himself simply did not want to save his own country.
      These are the leaders (both in Czechoslovakia, in Poland, and in France) that Hitler paved the red carpet for European rule.
  8. Cherkas
    Cherkas April 10 2013 12: 35 New
    -5
    You talk about my superficial knowledge of history and then you declare that cooperation between Germany and the USSR began in 1939 ... it began much earlier. And they were going to help Czechoslovakia just like the Baltic countries, initially. The leadership was well aware that Poland would not let 40 divisions through its territory, this is really such an excuse for kindergarten and the second undeniable moment, do you really think that Stalin and the top leadership were ready to confront Germany, which even after the attack on it It supplied Czechoslovakia with resources for the war, and with which it valued its alliance, perfectly assessing its chances for the spread of communism in Europe after the capitalist countries are fighting each other.
    1. Greyfox
      Greyfox April 10 2013 13: 06 New
      +5
      I spoke about large-scale cooperation with Germany after Hitler came to power, and not about cooperation with the pre-Hitler Weimar Republic.
      Poland wanted love and affection from Hitler. And Hitler took and raped Poland. You wish the maniac’s love be ready for trouble. It’s your own fault.
      1. Cherkas
        Cherkas April 10 2013 13: 25 New
        -1
        Yes, and Hitler came to power in 1939?
        1. Greyfox
          Greyfox April 10 2013 13: 31 New
          +3
          A comma is put before the union "a". I am not fond of trolling.
          1. Cherkas
            Cherkas April 10 2013 14: 35 New
            0
            You know, in one message you have a dot before "a" and "a" with a capital letter. And trolling began when one person told another about his superficial knowledge and continued that cooperation between the USSR and Germany began in 1939.
            1. smile
              smile April 11 2013 18: 07 New
              0
              Cherkas
              And what did you end up when you started to reanimate Rezunov’s tales, which even his employers refused to shame about, how we worked with Hitler until the age of 39 — brains or conscience ... or something you don’t have was it? :)))))
  • smile
    smile April 11 2013 18: 02 New
    -1
    Cherkas
    Sorry, but it’s time to make it clear that people who have already finished elementary school drop in on this site, therefore you can’t spray your meager rubbish here ... you are too lazy to refute you, and it is so obvious that only absolute brainless insignificance can broadcast this nonsense in the blue eye ... return to your nest ... dear ...
  • knn54
    knn54 April 10 2013 11: 02 New
    +6
    By September 17, the Polish government and the commander in chief of the Polish army, Marshal Rydz-Smigly. already safely found themselves in Romania .. The Polish-German war is a combination of the heroism of ordinary and junior officers and general cowardice and stupidity. The Polish army first adopted tanks with diesel engines !, produced bombers with fighters of its own production.
    The designers were sensible, the soldiers brave. The country and the army were led by mediocrity, who dreamed only of a “great Poland from sea to sea”, who were unable to mobilize in time and establish a competent defense.
    PS One of my favorite writers Stanislav Lem, who was drafted into the army at one time, recalled: “For three years of military training, we have never been told that there is anything like a tank. As if they weren't there ... It all looked - now I see it - as if we were being prepared in case of a war like the Franco-Prussian 1870. ”
    1. augur
      augur April 10 2013 15: 09 New
      -1
      I read somewhere that, like the first, Japan adopted diesel engines.
    2. Snoop
      Snoop April 10 2013 23: 19 New
      +1
      Churchill spoke very directly about Poland at that time))) ... The bravest of the most infamous of the infamous))).
  • gora1960
    gora1960 April 10 2013 11: 20 New
    +1
    The article is super. Although a reprint. I don’t understand one thing, why did you have to kick Suvorov?
    1. Rainger
      Rainger April 12 2013 10: 24 New
      0
      And this is the shamanic mantra of all the anti-resurists who did not read Suvorov ...
  • Hort
    Hort April 10 2013 11: 51 New
    -1
    the authorship of the "blitzkrieg" of the USSR is attributed to the fact that the Germans developed this doctrine based on the works of the Soviet military - Budyonny and Tukhachevsky, if my memory serves me right. They just changed the cavalry to tanks.
    1. smile
      smile April 11 2013 18: 12 New
      +1
      Hort
      Maybe all the same Triandafilova?
      1. Hort
        Hort April 12 2013 08: 02 New
        0
        maybe so. I will not argue :)
  • Hort
    Hort April 10 2013 12: 26 New
    +7
    On the topic of cooperation between the USSR and Germany, which some people condemn here: by concluding a non-aggression pact in 39, our diplomats made a significant split between Japan and Germany. This is one of the reasons why the Japanese did not begin military operations in the Far East in the year 41 (offended), but decided to wait for the Germans to take Moscow. in addition, a pact has already been concluded after thathow Britain and France were the first to negotiate with Germany. And from the point of view of geopolitics, it is a pity that we did not manage to sign an alliance agreement with the Germans - this was primarily due to the stupidity of the Fuhrer, who was led by the British promises about the "last bastion against Bolshevism" in 1936 (or 1937, I don’t remember exactly ) during negotiations with the Minister in. affairs of Britain. Why pity? Because geopolitically, Germany is our strategic ally. By the way, Hitler and Haushofer were talking about the same (theory about the axis "Paris-Berlin-Moscow-Tokyo), but in 1940 he was imprisoned and the Fuhrer's successful foreign policy ended - he stuck in the wrong place and got on the horns + a red banner over the Reichstag ...
    But in general, June 22, 1941. - this is to some extent a victory of British diplomacy, unfortunately
    1. Alex
      Alex 28 September 2013 21: 44 New
      +3
      Hitler had no need to follow the British mantras about the "last bastion against Bolshevism" - he himself was a communophobe of the last level. And he himself spoke intensely about his mission of combating communism in those days when Germany crawled out of the swamp of the Weimar Republic and, in front of the allies, quietly canceled the Versailles Articles. It was when the "boy grew up", he began to spit on everyone and decided that he could cough in bass at everyone.
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 9 November 2018 16: 07 New
      0
      Strategic ally ... Germany? -Yes. Nazi Reich? - No. Not for this, customers in Germany raised a Nazi beast in order to enter into strategic alliances with the Soviet Union (Russia). Drang nach Osten was the original and only important goal of reformatting the Weimar Republic into the Third Reich. It was necessary to collect, mobilize and throw in Russia. Whom to collect? - Of course, the Germans. Due to the quality of human material. Who else is able to break the great-grandchildren of the Scythians, grandchildren of the Varangians and nephews of the Golden Horde? Yes, and the Reds? ”“ Well, not the French with the Britons. The Third Reich is a ram from the beginning. But the gates with the rams do not make alliances.
      1. Hort
        Hort 14 November 2018 17: 16 New
        0
        according to Haushofer's geopolitical theory, continental powers are natural allies. And it was about France, Germany, Russia and (at that time the strongest power in East Asia) Japan.
        If my memory serves me right, without reference to the political system.
  • pinecone
    pinecone April 10 2013 12: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: 101
    It was worth Germany to take a break and master what was captured after ten years ......

    What kind of "respite" could we talk about when September 3, 1939. Britain and France declared war on Germany, and after France's defeat in the summer of 1940, Churchill's government rejected all German peace proposals.
    1. I think so
      I think so April 11 2013 22: 02 New
      0
      So what, what did she announce? Declaring war and WILLING war are "two big differences." The British, after the declaration of war, could sit on their island for another years and "fight" in pubs, as they did until the 44th.
  • igordok
    igordok April 10 2013 14: 01 New
    +5
    The Poles fought in a European way. If the enemy is stronger, they surrender. Why die.

    Surrender of the Modlin fortress. By "civilized" with a handshake.
    1. Marat
      Marat April 10 2013 20: 12 New
      +2
      Unfortunately, this was also the case in our history. Only in 1905, when Stessel betrayed Port Arthur treacherously. Even the photographs are common with Japanese generals, everyone has happy faces, including Russians.
      1. I think so
        I think so April 11 2013 22: 13 New
        0
        Well, here it’s somehow off topic ... 1905 - the stupid tsarist government launched the slaughter of the unarmed Russian army and navy against the Japanese. At that time in the Russian army there were NO explosive artillery shells. And ALL they already had. Therefore, the entire fleet was killed INSIDERALLY (although the Russians fired more accurately), and the army. If someone does not know, then know that an army without artillery (any, even the current one) is exterminated and demoralized during ONE ARTILLERY raid. Therefore, I consider the surrender of Port Arthur to be correct in those conditions. This is almost the same if you fight against atomic weapons without having them in your arsenal ...
        1. Waterfall
          Waterfall April 11 2013 22: 14 New
          +2
          The Japanese just threw meat at Port Arthur.
  • Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign April 10 2013 15: 20 New
    0
    Thanks for the interesting article. I must say that it largely fills the gap in knowledge on the actual development of the situation, the main course of the database. Hort, I agree with you, perhaps, that 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX is the victory of British diplomacy.
    The top military leadership of Poland was the first to step "on the rake of an unworked military doctrine," which, alas, was then followed by ours.
    knn54, I agree with your post.
  • Light source
    Light source April 10 2013 16: 15 New
    +1
    I am reading the second article today, and I see a huge number of grammatical errors. Horror.
    1. I think so
      I think so April 11 2013 22: 17 New
      +1
      If you are a grammar teacher, then you either have nothing to do on this resource or a lot of practice ...
  • Herr_Kaput
    Herr_Kaput April 10 2013 16: 33 New
    +4
    Glory to the Abrazavan reform!

    "in front" will be brought together
  • JonnyT
    JonnyT April 10 2013 16: 51 New
    0
    here is a reference to Old on the war in Poland http://historicaldis.ru/blog/43030518126/Stiven-Zaloga-Polskaya-armiya-1939–1945
    - “VVEDENIE” - “SENTYABRSKA? From = mail & l = bnq_bl & bp_id_click = 43030518126 & bpid = 430305
    18126
    1. I think so
      I think so April 11 2013 22: 23 New
      0
      I read the links - a complete mess. Advertising of the "power" of Poland both on the eve of, during and after ... Pony Agitprop ...
  • Humpty
    Humpty April 10 2013 17: 19 New
    +4
    When Poland was disgraceful, seizing the lands of its neighbors, Slovakia and Lithuania, it was European, "civilized." Europe turned a blind eye to the Polish conquests.
    September 1st 39th.
    "At six o'clock in the evening, Polish Ambassador Lukashevich came to Bonn at Ke d, Ostre
    “This is not the time to talk, Mr. Minister, we must fight.” What is your army doing? Your aviation You promised us effective and quick help! I know you are now trying to convene an international conference. This is absurd! Your actions prove to the whole world that France is not true to its word!
    “I forgive you, Mr. Ambassador, for such statements,” Bonn replied, “because your country was in misfortune. Besides, didn’t you yourself warning us against cooperation with Russia, declaring that it would hit Hitler together with Poland?”
    The minister pressed the bell button, the clerk opened the door. The Polish ambassador, beside himself with anger, left without saying goodbye. "

    Quote from the book of N. Yakovlev The day before.
    As they themselves received, they ran to the big uncles to complain, and the uncles showed a cookie and pointed to the door.
  • Marat
    Marat April 10 2013 19: 31 New
    +2
    Quote: Augur
    Yes, you forget this tale about the attack of the Polish cavalry on German tanks, for a long time everyone knows that this was not the case. I do not regret the Poles, but do not make idiots out of them!


    Quite right. You still Budyonny remember about his alleged desire to throw Cossack cavalry into battle against the Wehrmacht tanks.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 10 2013 20: 36 New
    +1
    Hitler would not have climbed into the USSR, now he would have been considered a good man, well, not a gram of the Poles is sorry. Vile folk, struck by a severe form of Russophobia.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo April 10 2013 22: 12 New
      0
      Quote: Avenger711
      Hitler would not have climbed into the USSR; now he would have been considered a good man


      No, I wouldn’t be considered! The Nazis are not good!
      1. I think so
        I think so April 11 2013 22: 34 New
        0
        Imagine a HYPOTHETIC situation, well, just as if ...
        Hitler was not fooled by Russophobic hysteria that swept in the west, but by the REASONABLE and sober-minded. And ... after concluding a peace treaty with the USSR, he began to FULFILL it! And after the capture of Poland, France, captured England and its colonies. Further, TOGETHER with the USSR and Japan-gouged the United States. And dividing all the colonies calmed down.
        What would we call him? AND? That ...
    2. Alex
      Alex 28 September 2013 21: 52 New
      +3
      Quote: Avenger711
      Hitler would not have climbed into the USSR; now he would have been considered a good man

      To consider Hitler and his whole camarilla good only because they did not attack any country (even my Homeland) - this, sorry, would be funny if it weren’t so scary. Nazism simply cannot be different.
  • Den_tw
    Den_tw April 10 2013 20: 53 New
    0
    A question for tank experts - photo "The commander of a German tank unit accepts the surrender of Polish officers. September 1939" - Why 2 coaxial machine guns in the tower?
    1. Snoop
      Snoop April 10 2013 23: 24 New
      0
      What for? So the tank was developed by designers:) For a greater density of machine gun fire. Tanchik Pz III.
      1. igordok
        igordok April 11 2013 09: 37 New
        0
        One of the machine guns is paired with a gun, and the other is obtained for the loader. Interestingly, I could not make out, is there an exchange machine gun? There is a mask for him, but the machine gun itself is not visible.
        1. Ulysses
          Ulysses 28 September 2013 16: 21 New
          0
          In the background is the same tank.
          There is no course machine gun.
          It can be seen for some reason moved to the tower.
          Photo, by the way from April 16, 1940.
          "New Zealand prisoner on the armor of the Pz.Bfw.III command tank of the 2nd Panzer Division of the Wehrmacht in the Pandeleymon area in Albania"
          http://waralbum.ru/167808/
    2. smile
      smile April 11 2013 18: 23 New
      0
      Den_tw
      This is a command tank. The sham cannon, in order not to be unmasked, the vacated place was used to place radio communication equipment ... similar cars were produced throughout the war ...
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 April 10 2013 23: 47 New
    0
    Quote: Canep
    Now Ukraine behaves in much the same way as Poland in 1937-39. In the event of a serious aggravation of relations between Russia and the West, Ukraine will not be needed either one or the other, with all that it implies ...

    And there’s nothing that any normal state should not depend economically on one country, it’s like now in the Baltic states - the whole economy (or rather all that is left of it) depends on the West, of course, if that, then this very West can crush the Baltic states with sanctions. The same situation with Russia - we will throw the entire economy into Russia and will be completely dependent on it.
    Regarding the ensuing conflict between Russia and the West, one must be a complete idiot to think that Ukraine will not be on the side of Russia during such a conflict.
    Oh yes, I forgot, this is your brainwashed channel in Russia for 20 years, but now Russian Ukrainians are indistinguishable from fascists.
    1. I think so
      I think so April 11 2013 22: 45 New
      +1
      You said "... any normal state ...". Question. What does this have to do with Ukraine today? A normal state takes care of its citizens. And Ukraine? Half of them are out of work, half are toilets in Russia or, at best, in Poland, scrubbing ... The standard of living in ALL parameters is LOWER than the Soviet one. And at the same time there are also ambitions and demonstrations of "independence". To be silent in a rag and thank you for every, even the smallest, opportunity to improve people's lives ... This is not for them, he is "indispensable". Until they are REALLY divided between butters and FORCED to work ...
  • Urkodav
    Urkodav April 11 2013 00: 01 New
    +4
    Poland deserves 1939
    1. I think so
      I think so April 11 2013 23: 02 New
      +2
      And the most interesting thing is that they remained like that ... Stupid, arrogant, short-sighted, aggressive ... Throughout their entire history, they exist because of Russia's tolerance ... Churchill, though, was right about the characteristics of the Poles .. .
  • sprut
    sprut April 11 2013 21: 36 New
    +2
    In the words of Churchill: the Poles are mean people meaner ...
  • Beck
    Beck April 12 2013 09: 29 New
    +2
    Quote: sprut
    In the words of Churchill: the Poles are mean people meaner ...


    You never know what a politician can say in oratory.

    At its core, humanity cannot be whole PEOPLES bad. Individuals may be bad. That is why, non-short people consider the Poles to be bad people? Because, in the personal opinion of some, she led the wrong policy, convenient to the USSR, in 30 years? So the policy of the USSR was not ideal in those years, as was the policy of England, France and other states.

    Here is the answer. Why is Poland a bad country? Just because in 1918, under a peace treaty ending 1 MV, it became an independent state? What do you want her to remain in the empire? Or would you also, in retrohistory, not want to separate from the Golden Horde? Or do you condemn Poland for defending its 2-year independence in 1920 defeating the red troops of Tukhachevsky? Or do you condemn the Poles for not wanting to live under socialism and have left the social camp? So Russia now does not live under socialism.

    By the way, anticipating the possible statements of Urashniks.

    After the surrender of Germany, the Soviet government canceled the conditions of the "Brest Peace", according to which the Baltic states became independent, and began an armed operation called "Vistula". Soviet troops were supposed to bring revolution to Europe, and ensure the victory of communism. In December 1918, Soviet troops occupied Minsk, in January 1919 - Vilno and Kovno. On February 27, 1919, the creation of the Lithuanian-Belarusian Socialist Republic of Soviets was announced.

    It was from the transfer of the revolution to neighboring countries that Poland came out, guarding its eastern borders. It’s as if we had not rebuffed the Japanese militarists on Halkin-Gol.
    1. Alex
      Alex 28 September 2013 22: 14 New
      +3
      Churchill even in oratory rage said what he thinks. Neither he nor other British politicians of that time concealed their attitude to Poland, as well as to other political neoplasms of Europe after the WWII.

      About Poland. I completely agree with you that there are no bad nations, but bad governments. But somehow it turns out weird. With Poland throughout the foreseeable historical period, living peacefully and neighborly did not work. Having replaced the Lithuanians, the Poles first of all began in Ukraine to uproot Orthodoxy, to conduct forced catholicism, mercilessly exploit the peasants. And note - without any urgent need. The result is known: the Khmelnitsky region and the end of the Commonwealth.
      But something else is also striking. Even at the moment of their highest dawn, the Polish magnates did not care about strengthening the state, but about the king - God forbid! - received no more power. As a result, three times in the Middle Ages and the fourth time in our time, Poland was divided, and the Poles themselves were not even asked about this (Benesh, at least he was present in Munich as a physical body). And now the same rake: we shout about great Poland (as if it’s not the XNUMXst century, but the XNUMXth century), makes claims to Russia, we print maps with borders near Minsk and Kiev ... And all this not only with the silence of the people on the contrary, with his full jubilation. I am already silent about their behavior in western Belarus, when they come here, to the "Eastern Kresy". And you say there are no bad nations.
  • Standard Oil
    Standard Oil April 12 2013 10: 45 New
    +1
    Even Pilsudski said somewhere that the self-confidence of the Poles exceeds only their stupidity.
    Well, why did you ask, you had to quarrel with two of your Great neighbors, hoping for the hypothetical help of England, a country that is always on your mind and you cannot rely on France, which trembled in fear behind its Maginot line and dared even a military demonstration for the sake of its ally Poland border hold. Well, here's the story and put everything in its place.
  • augur
    augur April 12 2013 17: 08 New
    +1
    back, +++, happy that does not have on you
    the influence of some pen comrades
    1. Beck
      Beck April 12 2013 17: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Augur
      beck, +++, happy you aren’t influenced by some penpals


      The influence is exerted by comments with which I may not agree, but said sincerely and without hidden or overt insults. We can all be mistaken.

      But cheers, of course, can not influence my worldview. I'm an old man.
  • jury08
    jury08 April 12 2013 23: 40 New
    0
    Shame on you, for the poured mud tubs on the Polish soldiers, they heroically fought for their homeland !!!
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN April 15 2013 18: 56 New
    +1
    The worst thing for the USSR was that this sad experience was not studied by the 41st year by the commanders of the Red Army and Stalin. And the tragedy repeated itself, even though it was much stronger than the Polish army of the USSR.
  • patrianostra
    patrianostra April 21 2013 10: 20 New
    0
    I recommend the book "Death through a telescopic sight" by Gunter Bauer, a very informative book
  • Alex
    Alex 28 September 2013 22: 21 New
    +3
    Despite such a pretentious introduction, the article does not contain a single fact. which would not be known to anyone interested in the history of the beginning of WWII. All the stated "news" is nothing more than a retelling of the events of that time already published several times (and not only on the Internet). There is neither time nor desire to conduct a detailed analysis of this opus. Article minus, and bold.