US Army Captain Tears the Sheets Off: New Rifle and All Its Flaws

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US Army Captain Tears the Sheets Off: New Rifle and All Its Flaws


U.S. Army Captain Braden Trent spoke at the Modern Day Marine forum in Washington, D.C. The forum is something between an exhibition and an open discussion club about everything that has any connection to the U.S. Marine Corps. There are many such platforms in the United States, including for special forces, the army, fleet and for the Marines. Why, exactly, was an Army captain performing there? He's currently training at the USMC Expeditionary Warfare School, most likely related to that.



Trent was talking about the newest rifle from SIG Sauer – the SIG XM7, aka MCX-SPEAR, the winner of the military’s Next Generation Squad Weapon competition (from English – “Weapon "Next Generation Squads"). According to the captain, he collected unclassified information about the latest weapons from soldiers of the 506th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division. This unit was the first in the US Army to receive the latest weapons - XM7 rifles and XM250 machine guns from the same SIG Sauer. They talked about the rifle itself and compared it to the M4A1 carbine, which is now the main small arms system of the US Army and the crowning achievement of the direct development of the Eugene Stoner system.


That very report. It is in the public domain, and you can read it. But be prepared for the fact that the introductory part essentially takes up almost half of the material.

As you probably already understood, in his speech, Captain Braden Trent talks about the new product as if it were a turtle and he were a god. But let's take it one step at a time.

Concept and technical features


We have already talked about this a lot and often, but we will remind you briefly. The general idea was that the newest rifle should win in range and accuracy in a firefight with an ambush of a gang of bad guys, the basis of whose firepower is a Kalashnikov machine gun. To put it even more simply, the bearers of democracy with the newest rifles should essentially outshoot a single PKM. That is, they took the situation of a typical counter-insurgency operation in Afghanistan and, like an owl on a globe, stretched it to 450 soldiers on active duty in the army of the 000st century. Apparently, so that this would not look like complete nonsense, they also screwed in a guaranteed defeat of Russian and Chinese advanced body armor, the development of which no one had ever heard of.

Such requirements, coupled with the increase in caliber, required the creation of a cartridge with enormous muzzle energy. And this, logically, has a negative effect on the service life of all internal parts. After all, this is not a sniper weapon that can shoot once every couple of minutes, and this will be considered intensive fire. This is a "combat infantryman's machine gun", it even has an automatic fire mode. Trent claims that he not only interviewed 150 soldiers and officers of the 1st Brigade Combat Team of the 101st Airborne Division, but even personally inspected 23 rifles. Well, the captain claims that absolutely all rifles receive barrel damage after firing 2000 shots. He described it as "caverns". The barrel, in fact, cannot withstand a high-impulse cartridge. The manufacturer claims that the weapon's service life is 10000 shots... To put it mildly, contradictory data is coming out.


The place in the shaft where, according to the army captain, cavities appear.

Ergonomics


This is strange, because it is believed that the Soviet-Russian weapons school lacks an understanding of what ergonomics is, while the US is doing well in this area. But no, the latest model of American military weapons has very ambiguous ergonomics. And Captain Trent is definitely not making things up or picking on anything. Complaints from American soldiers about the new rifle have leaked into open sources from time to time.

To cock the weapon, you need to do the same manipulation as on the M-16/M4. The bolt handle on the back of the receiver is pulled back all the way. Simple and clear, familiar to all soldiers... But no. If you pull it all the way back, it rests against the butt. So at the end, the handle must be pulled up, and not just back. It seems like a small thing, but strange, considering that 100% of American soldiers on the Stoner system have not encountered such a misunderstanding, and they will be retraining from it. The XM7 also has a duplicate cocking handle. It is located on the left side of the receiver. But Trent claims that it is inconvenient for soldiers to use it, it is located too high, and they are accustomed to something else, read above. Apparently, this is some kind of greetings from sports manipulations with weapons and the corresponding ergonomics, which the soldiers did not appreciate.


We pulled and pulled... and didn't send the cartridge into the chamber.

The magazine release button. It is double-sided. What could possibly go wrong here? It turned out that it is so large, and most importantly, on the side of the receiver that soldiers often press to their chest when moving with a weapon. Carrying a weapon, leaning it against the "armor", soldiers often accidentally disconnect the magazine, which simply falls out of the receiver neck. You walk to the sounds of cannon fire, tired, in the twilight... And you yourself do not notice how you are left with one cartridge in the chamber or with an unloaded weapon at all.

The silencer also comes with the added benefit of being broken when screwed onto the barrel. And in general, it turned out to be a problematic area, as it often burns out or breaks... But the rifle was originally intended to be used with a silencer, due to the sharp sound of the high-impulse ammunition.


Left side of the receiver. In front of the fire mode selector/safety is the same magazine release button. It was made big for good reasons, but the road to...

Combat potential


Trent questions the very concept in his report. It seems that according to army statistics, fire contact is most often 300 meters or less. It seems that even in the situation of that same hypothetical Taliban with a PKM. So why all this dancing with tambourines? After all, these are more than feasible effective fire distances for the M4A1, especially with optics.

But the US Army did receive more powerful ammunition, of a larger caliber, and, accordingly, the ammunition load per soldier was reduced. From 210 rounds per M4A1, the Army rolled back to 140 per XM7. At the same time, the number of magazines remained the same, they just became 20-round. Hello, Vietnam, jungle and early M-16s.


What a muffler should look like and what it looks like when you use it

That is, each fighter is turned into almost a marksman... But the instructions and tactics have remained the same. No one has cancelled suppressive fire, and it can be conducted not only by a machine gunner, but by a "link" or an entire squad, covering the maneuver of the second squad of the platoon. All this, according to the speaker, can result in not the most pleasant situations.

Trent claims that the paratroopers told him about one interesting incident during the training. During the training of a tactical element, a platoon of paratroopers lost combat capability in 15 minutes due to almost complete depletion of ammunition. After 10 minutes of fire contact, the soldiers simply began to run out of ammunition. Ammunition was collected from the radio operators, the platoon commander and the riflemen of the fire support squad. But still, in the 15th minute of the training, the entire platoon was only firing rare single shots. It is clear that the soldiers have not yet gotten used to the new weapon, the number of rounds, they are "getting used to it", but still the situation is indicative.


Ruptures and deformations of cartridge cases are also not uncommon.

We can also add here constant complaints about the XM157 sight from Vortex. It got to the point that following the results of testing the new rifle with optics in 2024, the Pentagon's Office of the Director of Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) wrote in its unclassified report that "the XM7 with the XM157 installed demonstrated a low probability of completing one 72-hour military mission without experiencing a critical failure." What exactly this meant was not specified in the report, but given the complaints about the newest sighting system leaking into open sources, it is possible to guess. But, again, the XM7 was positioned as a system that reveals its full potential with the XM157.

The weight


Last but not least. The development of the Stoner system in the US Army followed a logical and understandable path - lighter and more compact. And then THIS happened. The XM7 rifle with the XM157 sight and the standard flameless and silent shooting device weighs 6 kilograms... That's without cartridges. To understand the full depth of our depths - the M4A1 carbine weighs three kilograms four hundred grams with a loaded 30-round magazine.


There are already 6 kg on the scales, and there aren’t even any cartridges in the magazine.

The Army only gives official figures for the XM7 rifle unloaded and without accessories, and loaded with a muzzle device installed. And this seems like some kind of game with numbers, so as not to scare the public with the enormous weight of the system. Initially, it was assumed that the optics and muzzle device would be standard options for most rifles. So why then these data on the weight without everything and without ammunition and without a sight?

Not long ago, the army also adopted a concept according to which the load per infantryman in combat should not exceed 55 pounds, i.e. 25 kg. Take the XM7 in full "stuffing", seven magazines of standard ammunition, each half a kilogram with cartridges... and we get almost 10 kilograms of load per soldier only due to the main weapon and cartridges. For SIBZ, medicine, communications, grenades, water, etc., there are 15,5 kilograms of load left. Let's remember that American infantrymen now wear light plate carriers that do not protect from shrapnel at all, which in the event of a war not with shepherds with PKMs will have to be replaced with something with a collar, a groin pad, and it becomes really sad for the simple GI.


This phenomenon even received a special name in the army - the red screen of death. At a random moment in time, the sight can say in this way that it is tired. As a result, instead of a sighting grid with an aiming point automatically set according to the rangefinder data, the soldier will look at this.

Trent also cited some of his personal experience serving with the Marines, namely, joint training with the soldiers of the USMC Weapons Training Battalion. The Army and the Marines exchanged experiences in mastering identical weapons systems. Well, the experience of this training unit speaks to generally obvious things: a heavy rifle with a strong recoil of a high-impulse cartridge leads to rapid fatigue of the shooter. A tired shooter hits the target worse. Let's say, the exact opposite of what the Army wanted from the newest weapon.

Сonclusion


It is obvious that some of the problems with the new weapon are being solved. In fact, much of what was described is frankly typical for the development of new systems. SIG Sauer representatives responded to the army captain's speech rather quickly. They said that they were already aware of the problems with the magazine release button. Its design was changed, the problem was eliminated. Most likely, other ergonomic problems will be eliminated as well. The operation of the sight will probably be normalized as well.


The gun community in the US is large and active. It is also active on the Internet. So the appearance of funny pictures-"memes" characterizing the attitude of many users to the new weapon was a matter of time. Kitty literally screams about how much he hates the XM7.

But the very concept of this weapon and its use has always raised questions. Plus, nothing can be done about the XM7's main negative feature - its weight. We can also add a reduction in the amount of ammunition carried, or, again, an increase in its weight. Here, most likely, the American military will have to either accept or abandon the concept - every shooter is his own marksman.

Well, why, actually, did Captain Trent do what he did?

Well, maybe he's a good Samaritan and genuinely wants to make things better for his army and country. Democracy, freedom, a land of opportunity and all that. Or maybe it's a little more complicated...

Not long ago, US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced that all projects and weapons systems of the army would be reviewed, and everything unnecessary or questionable would be mercilessly thrown into the trash bin. It was within the framework of this program that the "light" was ordered to live long танк M10 "Booker". Who accepted into service a "light" tank weighing 40 tons (the weight of the T-72A tank) is a separate question. The fact is that almost one and a half billion dollars had already been spent on the project, the tank had already been accepted into service, the army had already received the pilot batch... And everything was shut down. So, perhaps, someone decided that with the M-7 everything had not yet been decided. Moreover, all the claims to the new system voiced by Captain Trent are more than fair and really have a place to be. So, the captain, perhaps, simply acted as a "spokesman" for one of SIG Sauer's competitors. The weapons manufacturer has plenty of ill-wishers. Just remember the scandal with the purchase of SIG Sauer pistols for the US Army, which representatives of GLOCK Inc. tried to challenge. And here is the main combat rifle of the army... The contract is already a billion, and will be multi-billion. There is something to fight for.

Well, why does Captain Trent need all this? Well, he will need to work somewhere after retirement. Perhaps he understands that he will not become a general, he will leave the army relatively young, and work in one of the enterprises of the arms industry is practically a guarantee of a comfortable old age. Remember the film "Pentagon Wars" and the persistent desire of the military to get into the defense industry after retirement.

In general, this is the “Santa Barbara” performed by the American military.
86 comments
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  1. 0
    22 May 2025 05: 25
    The capitalists have learned to push crap...
  2. +2
    22 May 2025 06: 14
    the latest rifle should win in terms of range and accuracy in a firefight with an ambush from a gang of bad guys, whose main firepower is a Kalashnikov machine gun
    Hmm. 20 rounds versus 30 in the same AK...... Well, well. lol lol lol
  3. Des
    + 16
    22 May 2025 06: 23
    An original article on VO is always a plus.
    Here, our captain (!) would collect information like this and hold his own discussion on the forum))) about (for example) the AK-12.
    The magazine release lever really did not work out well. And this was not revealed during the competition tests!
    1. +8
      22 May 2025 07: 34
      And why a +, if the author not only quoted the words of hemocyte kogo, but also added heresy of his own...
      I'll tell you in order - the unit of the said captain did not switch to the new rifle, he himself did not undergo any training in its operation, did not use the rifle even for training purposes, and carried out measurements and other assessments "visually", with all the ensuing consequences. In other words - this is purely the captain's opinion and nothing more, it may be correct, or it may not. More like a usual "throw at the fan".
      Why does the author compare the M4 (without even specifying at least the barrel length, etc., the M4 in the American army has a lot of modifications) without bodywork and a new rifle with a "silencer" and optics? Then you need to add the weight of the "can" and the handler with the mount to the weight of the M4, which will add another kilo to the "assembly".
      Regarding the Americans' armor protection, the MSV (Modular Scalable Vest) does indeed have minimal anti-fragmentation protection; for this, soldiers are issued a combat shirt with ballistic protection and, if necessary, additional modules for the helmet.
      As a result, it is too early to praise or condemn the new rifle, especially based on the words of a person who has nothing to do with it.
      1. + 13
        22 May 2025 08: 33
        The XM7 and M4A1 are compared, a specific military model with a specific barrel length. This is written in the article. It is written that the XM7 was originally planned for use mainly with the latest sight and "can", and the M4A1 was not ... and this is also written in the article.

        The site is free to post, anyone can write practically anything. Write your non-heresy.
        1. 0
          22 May 2025 11: 54
          The XM7 and M4A1 are compared, a specific military model with a specific barrel length. This is written in the article.

          Then the question is - why are they compared with the M4A1? And not with similar role models like the M27 or M110. Which, suddenly, are in service with the Marine Corps. And now the comparison with the M4A1 begins to resemble some biased assessment.
          This, by the way, is indirectly indicated by the fact that the M250 (by the way, forget about the letter X, literally just the other day it was adopted into service with the indexes M7 and M250) was taken out of the brackets and is not compared with the M240.

          Of all the horror stories about the M7 listed in the article, only two are significant (so far): low barrel life and weight. More precisely, not so much the weight (it is objective), but the bulkiness (and here it was possible and necessary to work, there are more than one or two examples of more convenient weapons, the same M110/NK417). The barrel life will be increased. When the M16A1 was replaced by the M16A2 under the PIP program, the personnel also wrote angry panegyrics. And when it turned out that, compared to the shallow 12'' rifling, the 7'' rifling kills the barrel at an indecent speed (due to which, after 6000 rounds of firing, the accuracy worsened by 126% (and compared to the M16A1 by 250%), which forced the barrel to be replaced, then the army leadership got worried. But never mind, the issue was resolved.
          1. +5
            22 May 2025 21: 32
            Well:
            1. Because the XM7 (now M7) is a direct replacement for the M4A1... and it is its analogue in role - the main battle rifle.
            2. The US Marine Corps and the US Army are two different structures, with a separate small arms system and the M7 has not yet been adopted by anyone except the Army, and the Navy is not looking in its direction.
            3. See points 1 and 2 regarding M27.
            4. See points 1 and 2 regarding the M110, plus it was never intended to be the primary weapon of all riflemen in a rifle squad.
            5. The M250 is a replacement for the SAW, not a general purpose machine gun to replace the M240.

            ... something like that.
            1. 0
              23 May 2025 13: 35
              The USMC and the US Army are two different entities.

              I know. But we are talking about a specific report by a specific person at a specific event.
              See p. 1 and p. 2 regarding M27

              How will points 1 and 2 change the fact that the M27, which is currently in the Armed Forces, is not considered heavy?
              See points 1 and 2 regarding the M110, plus it was never intended to be the primary weapon of all riflemen in a rifle squad.

              How will points 1 and 2 change the fact that the M110, which is currently in the Armed Forces, is not considered heavy?
              The M250 is a replacement for the SAW, not a general purpose machine gun to replace the M240.

              I know. They also forget to compare it with M249.
              1. 0
                24 May 2025 09: 39
                Well, if you had read the article and not come to the comments to fight, you would have known that everything above has nothing to do with the USMC. Oh well.

                Cancels because the article is not about that at all, and you are generalizing. Over there, respected PARMA says that you can't generalize, and you are generalizing. Now I'll set a regular on you. Well, the M27 is a kilo or so lighter than the M7. But it can't weigh less, find out why yourself. Hint - "automatic rifle" is not just a pretty name.

                See the previous point and they consider it heavy, so the M110A2 "lost weight" by almost 1,5 kg.

                No, they compare everything there, there are just no such “hyped” materials on this topic, and they are all in a foreign language.
          2. 0
            25 May 2025 13: 02
            Then the question is - why are they compared to the M4A1? And not to similar role models like the M27 or M110


            Since when did the M110 go from being a squad sniper rifle to an assault rifle? lol
        2. +4
          22 May 2025 12: 50
          What specific model with what specific barrel length?)
          Here's what you need to understand what's happening in the US under the M4 index:
          1) M4/M4A1 "early" model, with a "barrel" instead of a handguard (judging by the collimator, this photo is from before Iraq 2003)
          2) M4 SOPMOD I with RIS forend
          3) M4 CQBR or Mk18 (there are differences, but roughly speaking it is the same)
          4)M4 SOPMOD II FSP and SOPMOD II in one photo
          5)M4 UGR-I
          6) photo of boxes with equipment of the Americans back in Afghanistan, many (if not all) have several “apertures”, allowing to change the set of attachments and the length of the barrel just before the flight.
          And I haven't even taken into account a bunch of little things. And on top of all that, each soldier is STANDARDLY issued with different equipment! In special forces (and the paratroopers, to whom the captain went from among them) there is also a choice. In general - you have looked at quite old material, added your own ideas to it and decided that this is how it should be - no.
          P.S.: I once wrote an article about AK versions in different countries about 7 years ago, but it was almost word for word a repeat of an article from another portal, in the writing of which I took part and it was expanded. And I was too lazy to redo it, but maybe it is worth returning to its rearrangement.
          1. +3
            22 May 2025 22: 25
            Ooookey...

            The fact that the M7 replaces the M4A1 (this is a specific model, again) in the rifle squads of the army is completely ignored. "M4" is already largely slang. Like - "all emkas". And the army replaces a specific army model with a specific model. So if some blogger on YouTube wrote M4 vs XM7, this does not mean that all M4s are replaced in all structures of the US Armed Forces. By the way, the army has nothing to do with the navy and these are different structures. Then you can compare not only with the Mk18 and all the others, but, for example, with the Hk416 of the Norwegian infantry. Also has nothing to do with the US Army, but let's talk about the Norwegian infantry.

            Ooookey...

            The 101st Division, the 506th Regiment, all of its battalions... and even the 1st Battalion Tactical Group of the 101st is not special forces. ... and never was. Specialized, elite, honored. According to the staffing and structure, this is a light infantry division. So there are no separate and excellent uppers for one emka for privates from the 320th Artillery Regiment of the 101st, or the 1st Battalion of the 32nd Cavalry Regiment.

            I understand - helicopters = special forces. In Gostomel there were special forces and helicopters. But this is a slightly childish understanding of the world, multiplied by ignorance of the structure of the US Army. ... there were helicopters even in tank divisions back in the Cold War, and regular infantry has been riding helicopters for 60 years already. I understand that many of us idealize the US Army, thinking that it is just one big special forces of 450 thousand bayonets. But this is not quite true.

            Actually, the XM7 went after the 101st motorized riflemen... and to the national guard. It's an infantry weapon.

            Once again - the M4A1 works without optics and attachments, and that's how they teach how to shoot from it, among other things. But the M7 without optics makes no sense at all, and it was positioned as a rifle with optics on a permanent basis. That's why the comparison of the M4A1 (it's an army rifle, not a navy rifle, not a Marine Corps rifle, not a special forces rifle, and the M7 is only for the army for now) in its bare form with the M7 with all the crap.

            Yes, there is a lot of improvisation here, this is a full-fledged author's article - all the best for Top War and its readers!

            If I knew English, I would understand when the material appeared. I can send you the translation in a personal message for review, it is a bit shortened, but there is a lot of water in the report.

            Photo:
            1. Helicopter and regular infantry (not special forces) a long time ago, in a country where gooks sat in trees.
            2. A soldier from the 30th Armored Brigade (non-Special Forces) of the North Carolina National Guard (non-Special Forces) with an XM7.
            3. A US Army sergeant on target practice with an M4A1, shooting through the "iron". This is still the standard way to use the M4A1 and is practiced. He is from the 377th TSC. It has a long name if you translate it, but it is not special forces either, by the way.
            1. +1
              22 May 2025 23: 01
              That's the thing, M4 today is not a single model, but a whole family with very vague parameters under one index. So Mk18 was originally a naval model for boarding parties adopted by the army's SNiP in a modified form as a "shorty". Yes, I got to the bottom of the definition of M4, if we take it roughly, since everyone understands what I'm talking about, the rest is details. But on the other hand, M7 has not yet acquired a million subspecies like M4 and comparing them is like comparing the average temperature in a hospital and the final SNiP. Although the US Army teaches how to shoot with "iron", this does not cancel the M2 aimpoint as a standard sight. The Marine Corps recently taught bayonet combat, although it was practically never used. The devil is in the details, and the article has big problems with them. As they say, I am a witness of the "old school" VO, when details mattered a lot. General data and clumsy generalizations are also available in the wiki, why drag them here? The article does not contain unique information, at least in the Russian segment, on the contrary, it is full of errors and cliched generalizations, both regarding the rifle itself and modern SIBZ of the US Armed Forces. Why do this?
              1. +1
                24 May 2025 09: 28
                So you are generalizing. The article is about a specific model of a weapon that is being replaced by another specific model, and you are talking about all the VS and the entire M4 line invariably.

                Well, we've pulled out your main argument - "I've been here a long time". But this, unfortunately, does not make your opinion more significant, and your fragmentary knowledge more valuable.

                Well, no big deal. Stay with us, we'll teach you, pull you up. You've already learned that there are light infantry divisions and that they're not "special forces." Now we'll learn what USSOCOM is and why it has nothing to do with the 101st Airborne Division (not special forces) fighter. Everything will be fine.
        3. +1
          22 May 2025 21: 01
          Actually, a 4 without a body kit is a big rarity in the States. Besides, it's a carbine, while the M7 is a full-fledged rifle. There's a lot of dubious stuff in the note, but the point is different: I remember one American colonel (!), who stated in court (!!) that an M16 bullet tears off a head (!!!). In the States, they also know how to manipulate information. And the author's desire to show that the West is rotting does not add credibility.
        4. +1
          14 June 2025 12: 15
          There is something else instructive in this story - US Army Captain Braden Trent will not be punished for "disseminating information defaming... the army." No, experiments and exercises will be conducted based on his report, and design work will continue.
          As for the rifle itself, XM7 is an index of experimental weapons. eXperimental is the source of the letter.
          Let me remind you that the first military experimental batch of AKs had a hole in the bolt carrier handle. The hole is technological, for fastening the part in the tooling during manufacturing. But the soldiers expressed their opinion about the hole... in general, the hole was removed, at the cost of increasing the cost of the device for clamping the part.
          Same here, cavities in the barrel - they will change the barrel material, add nitriding or something else. Weight - will also be reduced. Ammunition... will be increased.
          Barrel wear can be overcome from the other end - supply units with replacement barrels, and make the gunsmith sergeant change them according to some shooting schedule, or after 10 combat sorties, for example. In the M-4/AR-15, this is quite easy if you have a barrel key and a device for clamping the receiver in a vice.
  4. IVZ
    + 12
    22 May 2025 06: 43
    The general idea was that the newest rifle should win in terms of range and accuracy in a firefight with an ambush of a gang of bad guys, whose main firepower was a Kalashnikov machine gun.
    The main problem of modern assault rifles (machine guns) is the low effectiveness of the ammunition used against manpower in modern SIB weapons. Simply put, insufficient bullet penetration. And this problem will only get worse over time. Therefore, the development of weapons for more powerful ammunition is not a marketing ploy, but an urgent need. The Americans made a kind of double move. The cartridge was developed on the basis of a rifle-sized cartridge case (according to the chamber volume) and the pressure in the barrel bore was increased. The latter was an attempt to obtain better ballistics, that is, to raise the initial bullet velocity, without excessive mass and dimensional characteristics of the cartridge. This required the development of a composite cartridge case, and as a consequence, an increase in the cost and labor intensity of manufacturing the cartridge, which is unacceptable for such a mass-produced product. In addition, this increases the size and weight of the locking chamber, the barrel (with the same margin of safety) and the weapon as a whole. Shortening the barrel and the associated need to use the problematic, well, at the moment, PMS does not provide any advantages. To put it mildly. And the survivability of the barrel, as can be seen from the article, is inevitably reduced. In addition, due to the nonlinearity of the air resistance characteristics, the high-speed bullet loses speed faster. As for the ergonomic blunders - a completely wild story unworthy of either the developer company respected in specialized circles or the country of development. Apparently, all the enthusiasm for the forend design was wasted. And about the cartridge ... Apparently, it's going to the "arrow" because technically this is the quintessence of sub-caliber ammunition. In artillery, and in almost all calibers, this ammunition has worked out. Small arms are next in line. I worked with people who were engaged in this topic in our country. The topic was closed after it was closed in the USA.
    1. +5
      22 May 2025 06: 48
      Here we must recall the beginning of this "action", believing in the propaganda of CTAS, they wanted to make an evolution of small arms by introducing telescopic cartridges. They were supposed to provide greater power while maintaining the overall volume, and the use of plastic - to make the cartridge cheaper and lighter. But when the competition was won by Sig with its two-piece case, it became clear that there was no victory.
    2. +1
      22 May 2025 09: 01
      Quote: IVZ
      The Americans made a sort of double move. They developed the cartridge based on a rifle-sized cartridge case (according to the chamber volume) and increased the pressure in the barrel bore.

      A logical question arises: why not use this same rifle cartridge?
      1. IVZ
        +1
        22 May 2025 17: 54
        A logical question arises: why not use this same rifle cartridge?

        The latter was an attempt to get better ballistics,
        That is, the power of this very rifle cartridge was not satisfactory.
      2. +2
        22 May 2025 21: 14
        In order to use a bullet with improved ballistics, while maintaining its weight and not increasing the power to an elephant-killing magnum, you still need to reduce the caliber. And high pressure serves to reduce the most dimensional and heavy part - the barrel, and not at all for power (the cartridge is approximately equal to 308).
        1. 0
          14 June 2025 12: 17
          Quote from Avis
          (the cartridge is approximately 308

          No, 277Furi-Fedorov is approximately equal to Fedorov’s calculations from a hundred years ago, but in those years there were no barrel steels suitable for such pressures, and no gunpowder with the required stability.
    3. +3
      22 May 2025 12: 48
      Quote: IVZ
      The main problem with modern assault rifles (machine guns) is the low effectiveness of the ammunition used against manpower in modern SIB systems.

      The main problem with modern assault rifles (machine guns) is that their combat effectiveness is very far from that at the range.

      https://shunculture.com/article/how-many-bullets-per-kill-in-afghanistan

      Deadly Efficiency: An Analysis of Shot-to-Kill Ratios in the Afghanistan Conflict

      "The use of ammunition by the U.S. military in Afghanistan has been the subject of debate and scrutiny. It is estimated that for every insurgent killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, U.S. troops have used about 250 rounds of ammunition. This has led to a significant increase in ammunition consumption: American troops use about 000 billion rounds of small arms ammunition each year. Because of the high consumption, U.S. manufacturers are struggling to meet demand, causing the U.S. to import ammunition from other countries, such as Israel."

      And what you have indicated as the main problem is not a problem at all. The area of ​​the frontal projection of the body of an adult male is ~0,5-0,8 sq. m. The area of ​​the bulletproof panel of the bulletproof vest is 0,094-0,13 sq. m. The bulletproof panel of the bulletproof vest covers ~16-18% of the area of ​​the frontal surface of the soldier's body. With bulletproof protection of the lateral projection of the body, things are even worse. It is practically nonexistent.
      Therefore, the development of weapons for more powerful ammunition is not a marketing ploy, but an urgent necessity.

      However, the high-quality frontal armor panels of the SIB cannot penetrate even armor-piercing .50 Lapua Magnum bullets with a tungsten alloy core from 338 yards.

      When caliber armor-piercing shells stopped penetrating the frontal armor of the first MBTs, tankers around the world switched to elongated subcaliber fin-stabilized armor-piercing shells.

      The history of the .277 Fury cartridge is the history of a fairy tale about its caliber bullet being able to penetrate the high-quality bulletproof armor plate of a modern bulletproof vest. A fairy tale that is believed because if you don't believe it, it is impossible to find a logical justification for trying to develop an assault rifle for this cartridge.

      If you do NOT believe the fairy tale, then the NGSW program looks like a completely idiotic Pentagon embezzlement of American taxpayer funds, which is essentially what it is.
      1. +4
        22 May 2025 13: 40
        However, the high-quality frontal armor panels of the SIB cannot penetrate even armor-piercing .50 Lapua Magnum bullets with a tungsten alloy core from 338 yards.

        1) "YouTube experimenters" demonstrate ignorance of the standardization of trauma beyond the barrier (which for them for the civilian and police sector should not exceed 44 mm of the depth of the notch in plasticine, and for the army - 25 mm). In such Internet shootings, at least the third degree is visible: "Complete loss of combat capability. Limited combat capability by 15-20 days. Full recovery of combat capability by 30-60 days. Fatal outcomes are probable. The probability of returning to duty is 25%"
        2) shoot demonstration commercial plates 30-34 mm thick, which in the size of 10 by 12 inches weigh 3,8-4 kg. Br4 plate (which is the general military standard for the Russian army) in this size from ShchShF weighs 2,65 kg. Maybe that's why these miracle plates can only be seen in bloggers' Internet videos, but not in armies.
        1. +2
          22 May 2025 14: 36
          Quote: Nefarious skeptic
          1) "YouTube experimenters" demonstrate ignorance of the standardization of trauma beyond the barrier (which for them for the civilian and police sector should not exceed 44 mm of the depth of the notch in plasticine, and for the army - 25 mm). In such Internet shootings, at least the third degree is visible: "Complete loss of combat capability. Limited combat capability by 15-20 days. Full restoration of combat capability by 30-60 days.

          The trick is that composite armor panels are not designed to hold such bullets from such distances, they are NOT penetrated even by .338 Lapua Magnum bullets with a tungsten alloy core, and the bulging of their rear surface indicates that the trauma behind the barrier will be very high.

          You will NOT write that the bullets of the .277 Fury cartridge will penetrate an armor panel that even the above-mentioned .338 Lapua Magnum bullets cannot penetrate?

          Or that the 8,7-9,1 gram bullets of the .277 Fury cartridge will bulge the armor panels so much that the bulging of their rear surface will be greater than their bulging from hits by bullets of modern versions of the .30-06 Springfield cartridge?

          Armor panels certified to the NIJ RF3 standard must withstand 165,7 (±7) grain (i.e. up to and including 11,19 g) M2 armor-piercing bullets traveling at up to 878 m/s.

          Well, the question is, what is the "shine" here for a 9,07 gram .277 Fury bullet flying at a speed of 900 m/s?

          There's no chance. From 15 meters, it won't penetrate or even bulge the NIJ RF3 armor panel to make it worth discussing the topic of unacceptable behind-the-barrier injury.

          So much fuss, and it doesn’t take out a regular NIJ RF3 armor panel from pistol range.

          Can we close the issue that the .277 Sig Fury cartridge and weapons for it are being "implemented" in the US Army in order to kill potential enemy soldiers through the bulletproof armor panels of their vests, and not in order to simply "saw off" several billion dollars of the US military budget?
          1. +2
            22 May 2025 15: 01
            You will NOT write that the bullets of the .277 Fury cartridge will penetrate an armor panel that even the above-mentioned .338 Lapua Magnum bullets cannot penetrate?

            No, of course not. I also won't argue the cartridge's irrelevance with videos that penetrate plates that aren't in the army for obvious reasons.
            So much fuss, and it doesn’t take out a regular NIJ RF3 armor panel from pistol range.

            Maybe they know that the basis of the army of the "potential enemy" is still the 6B45 (NIJ RF2), and not the 6B45-1?
            1. +1
              22 May 2025 18: 47
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              I will also not argue the irrelevance of the cartridge with rollers that penetrate plates that are not available in armies for obvious reasons.

              The cartridge-weapon complex is accepted for several decades, but this "promising" cartridge does not penetrate high-quality armor panels of modern bulletproof vests today. And this is despite the fact that these armor panels are made using relatively cheap armor ceramics based on silicon carbide and aluminum oxide, and not from expensive (but light) boron carbide.
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              Maybe they know that the basis of the army of the "potential enemy" is still the 6B45 (NIJ RF2), and not the 6B45-1?

              The main potential enemy for the USA today is China. And the USA decided not to go to war with Russia.

              But if we talk about 6B45 and 6B45-1, then in the US they know about them approximately the following:

              https://www.militarymfg.com/info/the-armor-russian-army-6b45-6b451-body-armor-59720423.html

              This basic suit is a version issued by most infantry units. There are no other accessories, only the vest body and two standard five-level bulletproof flaps. The vest body is equipped with an aramid protective layer to prevent cold weapons from hacking, and at the same time withstand the impact of 1.0-1.1 grams of fragments at a maximum speed of 550 meters per second. Under normal circumstances, the troops use the version equipped with the standard five-level flapper. This version of the 6B45 body armor can protect 7N24 armor-piercing bullets fired by AK74 rifles within 10 meters of 5.56x45mm NATO bullets, and 57-BZ- fired by AKM rifles. 231 armor-piercing rounds and 57-N-323S steel core rounds fired by SVD sniper rifles. The version with the 6B45-1 armor enhancement suit can reach the standard level 6 protection level, defend against the 7N13 armor-piercing shells of the SVD sniper rifle within 10 meters, and can protect against .338 sniper shells fired at a distance of 300 meters.

              Do you seriously think that the .277 SIG Fury cartridge and the XM7 rifle are designed to fight against an enemy wearing 6B45 body armor? And from what distance does a .7 SIG Fury bullet fired from an XM277 rifle penetrate a 6B45 bulletproof armor plate, from 1000 yards? Or is this a big secret of the US Army? wink
              1. +2
                23 May 2025 14: 58
                does not penetrate high-quality armor panels of modern bulletproof vests even today

                You stubbornly ignore the fact that you are considering armor panels that the army does not use as a base, for obvious reasons. And it is unlikely that it will not use them in the future. Otherwise, you should stop understanding what a mass-produced consumable is.
                The main potential enemy for the United States today is China.

                Does this mean that Russia has ceased to be a potential enemy of the USA? You also cite Russian plates, not Chinese ones, as arguments below.
                But if we talk about 6B45 and 6B45-1, then in the US they know about them approximately the following:

                https://www.militarymfg.com/info/the-armor-russian-army-6b45-6b451-body-armor-59720423.html

                What is the point of this sheet? It does not refute my words that the US is aware that the Russian army base is 6B45 (NIJ RF2), and not 6B45-1
                And from what distance does a .7 SIG Fury bullet fired from an XM277 rifle penetrate a 6B45 bulletproof armor plate, from 1000 yards?

                If they can achieve NIJ RF6,8 penetration at 51 yards with a steel core bullet in 2x150, I would consider that a success. I would guess they would too. Both the ORO report 70 years ago and 20 years ago in Iraq showed the highest percentage of targets that passed the 30-second test were at 120 meters.
                And today Tekhinkom produces armor panels "Granit" Br4+
                And Tekhinkom also produces armor panels... Br5+

                As in GOST 34286-2017 you will show me the existence of "pluses", so we will continue the conversation with an explanation of what marketing and TU are. The whole trick, from which you experience irrational delight. Just compare the weight and dimensions of Br4+ with Br5 plates from other manufacturers.
                Because the NIJ-0123.00 standard does not include requirements for protection against .338 Lapua Magnum and .338 Norma Magnum cartridges.

                You still don't want to understand that the division into armor protection classes implies the suppression of a ballistic threat with the smallest possible weight and thickness of the plates that are actually capable of suppressing this threat. Otherwise, the point disappears. And since the relevant standards do not regulate this weight and thickness, this is what marketers use - look, according to the standard, such a plate should withstand 7,62, but in our case it withstands 8,6 or 12,7 (we need to wait a little and they will start "testing" 14,5). Only the fact that the plate is "for some reason" thicker and heavier than the one that "only" withstands 7,62, marketers modestly keep silent. Therefore, I do not understand the turmoil around such uber-plates - should I be amazed that a thicker plate withstands more serious threats? What does this have to do with real army life?
                1. 0
                  25 May 2025 16: 53
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  You stubbornly ignore the fact that you are considering armor panels that the army does not use as a base, for obvious reasons. And it is unlikely that it will not use them in the future. Otherwise, you should stop understanding what a mass-produced consumable is.

                  Today, Tekhinkom mass-produces, and the army accordingly uses, armor panels "Granit" Br4+. I will be very surprised if it turns out that a bullet with a steel core of the .277 Fury cartridge penetrates such an armor panel from a distance of more than 100 m.
                  You still don't want to understand that the division into armor protection classes implies the suppression of a ballistic threat with the smallest possible weight and thickness of the plates that are actually capable of suppressing this threat. Otherwise, the meaning disappears.

                  If somewhere the lowest possible weight and thickness of armor panels were stipulated as a basic condition, everyone would have unanimously switched to using ceramics based on boron carbide in armor panels. But since price also matters, we have what we have. Mass production of "Granit" armor panels based on corundum armor ceramics, which are not penetrated by a 100 mm B-7,62 rifle cartridge bullet from a distance of 32 m, and therefore will not be penetrated by a steel-core bullet of the .277 Fury cartridge.

                  As a result, if anyone in the NGSW program had any ideas on the topic of "we will penetrate the armor panels of the enemy's mass-produced army body armor," these ideas can be forgotten, and the M7 rifle, not yet becoming mass-produced (although what kind of M7 rifle is it with a 13-inch barrel? It's a carbine!) turns into a bad "Markman" rifle (if it were good, the barrel would not be so short).
                  The marketers are modestly silent about the fact that the plate is “for some reason” thicker and heavier than the one that “only” holds 7,62.

                  A mass-produced army bulletproof vest does not require armor panels that can withstand a B-32 rifle bullet from a distance of 5 meters. The situation in which an infantryman is shot at point-blank range with armor-piercing bullets from a PK machine gun or SVD rifle is extremely unlikely in real life.

                  With my help, you now know that the mass-produced "Granit" armor panels produced by "Tekhinkom", designed to withstand almost point-blank hits from armor-piercing machine gun bullets and 7,62 mm LPS rifle bullets with a steel core, are not penetrated by a 7,62 mm B-32 rifle bullet from a distance of 100 meters.

                  But the fact that these armor panels could have been lighter if these panels had been made using ceramics based on boron carbide is another question.
            2. 0
              22 May 2025 21: 14
              Next. What armor panels does Tekhinkom currently produce? Tekhinkom today produces armor panels "Granit" Br4+ weighing ~2,9 kg in the 2nd size and ~3,2 kg in the 3rd size. Why Br4+? Because during certification the panels were tested by firing 7,62 mm B-32 rifle bullets fired from an SVDS rifle from a distance of 100 m. And they withstand these bullets:

              https://frontkit.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/protokol.pdf

              Tekhinkom also produces Br5 and Br5+ armor panels. The latter are the most interesting because, with a weight of 3,36-3,40 kg in size 2, during research tests they were fired at not only with 5,45 mm and 7,62 mm and 7,62 mm rifle cartridge bullets, but also with a 16,2 g Lock Base bullet of the .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge and a 12,7 mm B-32 bullet (from a reduced distance of 800 m, bullet speed 550-580 m/s):

              https://frontkit.ru/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/protokol-br5-bljur.pdf

              So, when firing Lock Base bullets of the .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge, the armor panels of the "Granit" Br5+ were not penetrated. The only difference is that from the given distance of 300 m, the behind-the-armor impact was within the permissible OTT 7.2.24-90 limits (1,5-1,8 with an acceptable value of 2,0), and from a distance of 5 m it was 2,8, i.e. it went beyond the permissible OTT limits.

              A 12,7 mm B-32 bullet from a given distance of 800 m penetrated the Granit Br5+ armor panel, but the overall protective structure (29 layers of UHMWPE fabric and a climatic-cushioning support) was not penetrated.

              So you will continue to insist that the American military is introducing the .277 SIG Fury cartridge and an automatic rifle chambered for this cartridge in order to penetrate the bulletproof armor panels of domestic army body armor from a distance of several hundred meters?

              Because the American military doesn't have time to go online, read the test reports of these same armor panels and realize that the .277 SIG Fury bullets won't penetrate the "Granit" armor panels, even of the Br4+ class, not to mention the Br5 and Br5+ classes, from several hundred meters?
              1. 0
                23 May 2025 15: 35
                but also 16,2 g. Lock Base bullet of the .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge

                Here you have, or rather at
                https://frontkit.ru/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/protokol-br5-bljur.pdf

                managed to interest me.
                On what ballistic barrel did they manage to get a speed of 250 m/s (!!!) with a standard load for 984 grains? If on 690 mm barrels it shows 900-940 m/s depending on the powder. And according to GOST-R 50530-2015, ballistic barrels for magnums have a length of 650 plus or minus 10 mm.
                1. 0
                  24 May 2025 01: 01
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  managed to interest me.

                  I assume you are familiar with Occam's razor? Most likely it was a banal typo. The initial velocity was 894 m/s and the standard ballistic barrel was 650 mm plus or minus.

                  But the Lock Base bullet test itself from a distance of 5 meters... what real-life situation did they want to reproduce? A Ruger Precision rifle owner who has drunk himself into delirium tremens and puts a bullet in the chest of a Rosgvardia soldier storming his apartment? wink
              2. 0
                23 May 2025 15: 47
                The "Granit" Br5+ armor panel was penetrated, but the overall protective structure (29 layers of UHMWPE fabric and a climatic-cushioning support) was not penetrated.

                This should be understood as the fact that only the KAP (millimeter plastic, foam and cordura at best) was not penetrated? After all, the soft package is located in front of the plate.
                What kind of wonderful shootings are these? I really wanted to see the blurred names.
                1. 0
                  23 May 2025 17: 29
                  After all, the soft package is located in front of the plate.

                  Here I was in a hurry, the plate is not metal. So the question was dropped.
                2. 0
                  24 May 2025 01: 24
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Should this be understood as meaning that only the KAP (millimeter-thick plastic, foam and cordura at best) was not penetrated?

                  It should be understood that the layers of UHMWPE fabric behind the armor panel were not completely pierced by the remains of the core and fragments of the panel itself. Since the severity of the behind-the-armor impact is not indicated, the absence of a qualifying penetration of the full protective composition is of only academic interest.

                  But the fact that the severity of the armor impact for the Lock Base bullet of the .338 LM cartridge at the given distance of 300 m is 1,5-1,8 should be of interest to practitioners.

                  And of course, the failure to penetrate the Br100+ panel from a distance of 4 mm with a B-32 rifle bullet illustrates that bullets fired from an M7 rifle will not penetrate the Granit Br4+ panels of 6B45 body armor from approximately the same distance.

                  If some US Army general saw the transition to the .277 Sig Fury as devaluing the bulletproof body armor of a potential enemy, then in vain.

                  Physics does not obey the general's will. Even in wartime, when, according to a well-known joke, the value of sine can reach four. wink

                  After all, the soft package is located in front of the plate.

                  You have a somewhat misconception about the design of the 6B45 bulletproof vest.

                  1. 0
                    23 June 2025 18: 01
                    You have a somewhat misconception about the design of the 6B45 bulletproof vest.

                    I think I wrote it above
                    Here I was in a hurry, the plate is not metal. So the question was dropped.

                    Perception distortion after actual familiarization with reality. I have more than one example from there, when fighters, stuck for an indefinite period on strongpoints in dead directions, exchange ceramics for cheap steel plates Br3. Homespun people's economy - 3 thousand, not 50. The most probable danger is drops and fpv. With the same weight as Br4 ceramics, it is simply more convenient due to its significantly smaller thickness. And they are not upset that fragments pick at expensive plates, and steel does not suffer from fragility.

                    If somewhere the lowest possible weight and thickness of armor panels were stipulated as a basic condition, everyone would unanimously switch to using ceramics based on boron carbide in armor panels. But since the price also matters

                    in real life, soldiers don't put on these monstrous 5+ and the like - they walk around in a four-piece suit, their knees don't buckle when they jump, and the army's budget is finite.
                    Today, Tekhinkom mass-produces, and the army accordingly uses, Granit Br4+ armor panels.

                    Have you ever been a participant in a tender for the Ministry of Defense? Who in the army dared to write TU instead of GOST in tender documentation? Can you show the purchase of Br4+? And if the purchase is for Br4, then Br4+ simply will not pass the tender in terms of cost, and if the purchase is for Br5, then in terms of the threats it can mitigate.
                    Otherwise you somehow ignored:
                    Quote: somewhere higher in the messages
                    As in GOST 34286-2017 you will show me the existence of "pluses", so we will continue the conversation with an explanation of what marketing and TU are. The whole trick, from which you experience irrational delight. Just compare the weight and dimensions of Br4+ with Br5 plates from other manufacturers.
          2. +2
            22 May 2025 15: 07
            P.S.
            The trick is that composite armor panels are not designed to hold such bullets from such distances.

            Why is that? Standard 0123.00 and its companions do not regulate the weight and dimensions of panels. Therefore, you can make a 25-pound panel and happily report that it holds 12,7 at point-blank range. Well, they are already making happy videos where M200 2 does not penetrate a plate from 12,7 meters. It makes it look like a football, but does not penetrate.
            1. 0
              22 May 2025 19: 23
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              Why is that? Standard 0123.00 and its accompanying standards do not regulate the mass and overall dimensions of panels.

              Because the NIJ-0123.00 standard does not contain requirements for protection against .338 Lapua Magnum and .338 Norma Magnum bullets. Which, however, does not negate the fact that armor panels corresponding to NIJ RF3 do in fact protect against such bullets from a certain distance, and even with an acceptable level of behind-the-barrier trauma (as do NIJ RF2 and NIJ RF1, but from greater and slightly greater distances). It is just that the standard does not contain requirements for protection against such bullets, and armor panels are not subject to certification for compliance with the missing requirements.

              The requirement for protection against 12,7 mm bullets is in the standard GOST 34286-2017 "Body armor. Classification and general technical requirements"

              Level Br 6 provides protection against a B-32 bullet of a 12,7x108 mm cartridge fired from an OSV-96 (V-94) rifle from a distance of 50±0,5 m.

              Level for growth.
        2. 2al
          +2
          22 May 2025 14: 36
          There is one in the video with the SVO, but it is not clear how many plates are inserted
          "Body armor 2109 set "Assault"
          Reference: 08914
          Protection class - BR5
          Weight 11 kg fully assembled
          Soft ballistics material - SVMP
          Size - 48-60 (adjustable)
          IR remission fabric is used for protection against NVG!!
          ATTENTION! 5 plates are required to protect BR2 (see the Equipment tab)
          "
        3. IVZ
          0
          22 May 2025 18: 03
          "YouTube Experimenters" Demonstrate Ignorance of Standardization for Peri-Barrier Injury
          Not a fact. During the experiment, the ball plate was placed close to the block, and the block was fixed rigidly. That is, the shock absorber of the armor, which is basically designed to soften blunt injuries, was ignored. In addition, in a state of combat trance, a person is able to ignore quite serious injuries and pain for some time, and in such a state he can cause considerable damage to the enemy.
          1. 0
            14 June 2025 12: 28
            Quote: IVZ
            In addition, in a state of combat trance, a person is able to ignore quite serious injuries and pain for some time and

            The reality is different.
            Hitting the exact center of the armor plate is... well, experiments. And if it's not in the center, one of the edges of the plate will "hit" the person harder, meaning the injury is more severe.
            "Combat trance" is not given to everyone, it is difficult to learn such things. Under "chemistry", yes, anything can happen, but it is very harmful to a person. And serious injuries - if the corner of an armor plate broke five ribs and blood and air enter the pleural cavity at the same time, then this is almost a walking dead person, without a rather difficult resuscitation.
            Usually such comments about the ability to fight with wounds are written by people who have not received any serious injuries. And those who know from their own experience what a crack in the upper jaw with a change in bite is, or a finger getting chewed in a mechanism - treat this topic a little differently.
            1. IVZ
              0
              14 June 2025 13: 29
              At one time, during the period of work on the AEK-919K, discussing its combat capabilities, employees of the special law department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs expressed regret about the weakness of the 9X18 cartridge in terms of its weak penetrating effect on body armor. To the remark of an "advanced" representative of the enterprise like "...what difference does it make whether he dies from a bullet or later from blunt trauma" - quote, the answer followed in the sense that the stopping effect in close combat should be instantaneous, and blunt trauma, as a rule, does not give such an effect. And whether the object dies "later" is generally the tenth matter.
      2. 0
        22 May 2025 21: 17
        Are there already jokes in the comments?
        1. -1
          22 May 2025 21: 39
          Is it a sin to laugh at yet another case of American generals believing that only Russians serve in the US Army? terminators 250 pound, 6,6 foot tall brutes who don't care if they fire a Browning M1918 in bursts, an M14 in bursts, or an M7 when going into an attack?

          The generals believe in their powerful soldiers!
          1. 0
            13 June 2025 21: 01
            You didn't know that the seven is lighter than the "American three-line"?
    4. -1
      22 May 2025 19: 44
      Quote: IVZ
      The main problem of modern assault rifles (machine guns) is the low effectiveness of the ammunition used against manpower in modern SIB weapons. Simply put, insufficient bullet penetration

      There is no such problem. An old AK74 with an old 7N6 is capable of piercing the carcass at the entire effective firing range regardless of the SIB protection class.
      1. IVZ
        0
        22 May 2025 20: 04
        Thanks for enlightening me, because when people come here on vacation, they drive around and drive around like crazy...
        1. 0
          22 May 2025 21: 48
          What kind of crap don't they talk? It would be better if they read the passport for the armored personnel carrier.
  5. -1
    22 May 2025 07: 05
    The sooner this entire American army dies, the sooner peace will come.
    1. IVZ
      +5
      22 May 2025 07: 10
      I remember the Vainers' "It's Hard to Be a God". "...take away the power from the strong." "There's no point. The strong will come from the weak in their place." I don't remember it word for word, but that's the gist. In this world, we ourselves must be strong, especially if we have something to take.
      1. -1
        22 May 2025 08: 51
        This is from the Strugatskys, which, most likely, will bring little meaning in the opinion of the administration.
        1. IVZ
          0
          22 May 2025 18: 05
          This is from the Strugatskys
          Freudian slip. Thank you.
  6. +7
    22 May 2025 07: 18
    The button has been redesigned (+$), the sight will be fixed (+$), the cartridge will eventually be weakened somewhat closer to the level of 7,62 NATO (which will allow abandoning the composite case structure in favor of a full steel/brass one - +$, but in the long term, savings on production), the weakened cartridge will already allow to somewhat lighten the design and solve problems with the muzzle device (+$, but in the long term, savings on production). And in the end, from the desired and initially declared advantages, only a pumpkin will remain, like from the carriage with Cinderella (the bullet will fly a little better only because of the smaller diameter compared to 7,62, but that's all). And the funniest thing will be that a slightly humanized cartridge will already be able to quite calmly digest ... a simple modernization of the M16 / 4 / HK416, which could have been worked out conditionally in the workshop of some Brandon Guerra, and not pour tons of money into professional gunsmiths. Well, "that's the way". Gross errors in the technical specifications are serious.
    1. +3
      22 May 2025 07: 27
      Oh yeah, and of course no one will shut down the whole shop. And with time (and $) all the fuckups like the M16 in Vietnam will be forgotten, except that they will still be discussed in the community. And it will be incomparably easier - there are no obvious conflicts, there is time for work, and the influence of fire in modern combat is steadily declining, sometimes mutating into grotesque forms of standard anti-drone anti-aircraft guns.
    2. 0
      22 May 2025 11: 51
      Quote: CouchExpert
      The button has been redesigned (+$), the sight will be repaired (+$), the cartridge will eventually be somewhat weakened closer to the level of 7,62 NATO (which will allow abandoning the composite structure of the case in favor of a full steel/brass one - +$, but in the long term savings on production), the weakened cartridge will already allow to somewhat lighten the design and solve problems with the muzzle device (+$, but in the long term savings on production). And in the end, from the desired and initially declared advantages, only a pumpkin will remain, like from the carriage with Cinderella

      And in the end, they will return to 7,62x51. smile
      In general, everything is according to the precepts of "Shooting Some Sacred Cows" of 2013 - a humorous history of American infantry from the 20s of the last century to the 10s of the current century. There, after the appearance of the M16, the infantry sighed with anticipation every ten years: "Luckily for us, I hear we'll be back to .30 soon.". smile

      The funniest thing is that this whole story ended exactly at 6,8 - and the conclusions 10 years ago were the same as in the article:
      MO: Well, special forces, what do you think about the 6.8 caliber?
      Spetsnaz: Overall, it suits us. It hits well. The problem is that it doesn't hit well enough to justify the reduced ammo capacity. It's fine for us, but these infantry will simply shoot everything up quickly and sit there without ammo. However, it would be a good replacement for the .30 in the new lighter machine guns - it will carry more ammo.
      MO: Well then, let's get to work.
      Infantry: Oh, great! We're getting the .2020 caliber back by 30!
  7. +1
    22 May 2025 07: 56
    Even if the resource is 10000 shots, and not 2000, then during intensive combat operations it is exhausted quite quickly. The ammunition load is now up to a thousand rounds.
    1. +4
      22 May 2025 08: 19
      This rifle would be useful in Afghanistan, in the mountains.
    2. +1
      22 May 2025 22: 05
      The resource is exactly the same as with 7.62x51. And the ammunition should be calculated based on how much is needed to hit one target. The difference between a weapon for precision combat and a "watering can". This is another evidence of the dubiousness of the "witness".
  8. +2
    22 May 2025 08: 55
    The general idea was that the newest rifle should win in terms of range and accuracy in a firefight with an ambush of a gang of bad guys, whose main firepower was a Kalashnikov machine gun.
    , why did the author decide so, there are actually several reasons for the transition, the first is the unification of small arms for a single cartridge in the squad, so both a rifle and a machine gun were developed in tandem, if you can still live with a rifle for a low-impulse cartridge, then with a machine gun it's a disaster, in the Russian army the RPK can't even be called a machine gun, and having two types of weapons in a squad for two different cartridges, for a rifle and an intermediate one, is an even more stupid idea, so they decided to make some sacrifices - namely, to give preference to the power of long-range and versatility and sacrifice the rate of fire at the level of a single infantryman, especially since in the US Army it is generally not customary to fire automatically from an unstable position due to its low efficiency, there they always shoot single shots from machine guns, and if you still shoot single shots, then there is no particular difference whether you fire with a rifle or an intermediate cartridge ...
    1. +2
      22 May 2025 14: 32
      if you shoot single shots anyway, then it doesn't really matter whether you fire with a rifle or intermediate cartridge...


      You are mistaken. When switching from 7,62x39 to 5.45x39 in the USSR, they passed a bunch of tests on shooting from different positions. So, the table flip in a larger cartridge did not allow to quickly re-aim the barrel at another target. When shooting quickly at several targets, the AK74 and M16 are like a hot water bottle for any automatic rifle.
  9. -2
    22 May 2025 10: 40
    A very strange weapon. The cartridge is smaller than 7.62NATO, but weighs the same. The BC is also small. The recoil is not noticeably less. You could say it is the same. The rifle even weighs more than the AR-10 and other FN FAL and HK3. The efficiency of the new BP is at the level of 7.62NATO. Why was it even necessary to build this? Just for the prospect of developing faster bullets? Apparently, interested people want to make a billion bucks by trading one thing for another.
    1. +1
      22 May 2025 11: 25
      The cartridge is smaller than the 7.62 NATO, but weighs the same.

      Why the same if it's less? Not dramatically, of course, but less.
      The efficiency of the new BP is at the level of 7.62 NATO.

      Compare the loss of speed and energy over the distance.
      1. -1
        22 May 2025 13: 20
        Why the same if it's less? Not dramatically, of course, but less.


        The weight of the 6.8x51 cartridge is 21-22 grams, versus 25-28 grams for the 7.62x51. The weight of 200 cartridges of the new type is 4.2-4.8 kg, and the old one is 5-5.6 kg. And was it worth it to make a fuss? Was it not possible to improve the 7.62NATO bullet? It has huge potential. The difference in the weight of the BC between the old and the new is only one!!! 20-round magazine. This is a complete fiasco! And the testers are already complaining that the portable BC is simply not enough.
        1. +3
          22 May 2025 14: 03
          Was it worth it to make such a fuss?

          There is a 20% difference between the figures you cited. This is, in fact, a lot. Shooting has already been polished to such an extent that a few percent in one indicator, while the others remain unchanged, is considered an achievement, let alone tens.
          Wasn't it possible to improve the 7.62NATO bullet? It has huge potential.

          How? Improve the form factor? Increase the speed? If you think that happiness will come, then not at all. Ballistics is always a compromise between contradictory characteristics. And what to do with 5,56? It also has huge potential? And I will remind you that 6,8 is planned to replace both calibers.
          1. 0
            22 May 2025 15: 40
            It will replace, but only if it's sturgeon.
            cut it down a lot :-)))
            From a crazy 51mm (.277 SIG-Fury) case
            to a quite adequate sleeve
            in 43mm (6,8x43-Remington)
            1. 0
              22 May 2025 16: 38
              It will replace, but only if it's sturgeon.
              cut it down a lot :-)))
              From a crazy 51mm (.277 SIG-Fury) case
              to a quite adequate sleeve
              in 43mm (6,8x43-Remington)

              Despite all the attractiveness of 6,8x43 compared to 5,56x45, it cannot replace 7,62x51 (and was not intended to). And the attractiveness is noticeable on 20 and 24 inch barrels. But on 16'' it immediately disappears somewhere.
          2. 0
            22 May 2025 15: 46
            Let me remind you that 6,8 is planned to replace both calibers.
            .

            The US and NATO had a single cartridge by the end of the 60s - 7.62NATO and eventually abandoned it. The weight of the weapon for this BP is very large. The weight of the ammo pack is large. And the new 6.8 is no different at all. 20% of the weight of the ammo pack is nonsense, not worth billions of dollars. Instead of 10 M16 magazines (30 rounds), you can take 6 magazines with new cartridges (20 rounds). This is a complete fiasco. And the US already went through this in the 60s. Moreover, the new machine gun for the new cartridge weighs as much as 6 kg!!!! SIX kilograms, Karl!!! Carrying this sledgehammer and the ammo pack for it... Sick. In some mountains of Afghanistan or in the desert, the transition to a single rifle cartridge is still justified. But as a universal caliber, it is no good.
            1. +3
              22 May 2025 16: 23
              By the end of the 60s, the US and NATO already had a single cartridge - 7.62NATO, and they eventually abandoned it.

              Doesn't it bother you that the reasons in both cases (transition to 2 vs. their unification) are different? Or has nothing changed for you since the late 60s, for example, in the issue with the same SIB?
              Instead of 10 M16 magazines (30 rounds), you can take 6 magazines with new ammo (20 rounds).

              You'd better calculate how many 6,8 rounds instead of 7,62 the machine gunners and marksmen will take with them. That is, those who make the main contribution to the effectiveness of the link. Because I like it when people prove something, ignoring the accompanying connections associated with the subject of the proof.
              Moreover, the new machine gun for the new cartridge weighs as much as 6 kg!!!! SIX kilograms, Karl!!!

              Which is heavier than the 5,56 M27 adopted by the KPM (also complete with a sight and PBS) by a kilogram. And no one complains about the weight of the M27. And it is lighter than the 7,62 M110 adopted by the KMP.
  10. +2
    22 May 2025 14: 42
    Moreover, all the complaints about the new system voiced by Captain Trent are more than fair and really exist. So the captain may have simply acted as a "spokesman" for one of SIG Sauer's competitors. The weapons manufacturer has plenty of ill-wishers. Just remember the scandal with the purchase of SIG Sauer pistols for the US Army, which GLOCK Inc. representatives tried to challenge. And here is the army's main combat rifle... The contract is already worth a billion, and will be multi-billion. There is something to fight for.


    This article and news are based on a very ambiguous and one-sided position of one person.

    The reality is that:
    1. The US Army has officially adopted the 6.8x51 NGSW.
    2. XM7 becomes officially M7, XM250 becomes officially M250.
  11. -2
    22 May 2025 15: 24
    Thank God that under the S.S.S.R.
    enough sanity to screw this one
    fierce "sleep of reason": 6x49-mm :-)))
    It's a pity I didn't find a photo of that one now
    real spent cartridge case 6x49 mm,
    in which the ejector tore out
    piece of steel (!?) sleeve flange
    after the release...
    What kind of rollback momentum is this?
    the cartridge case should have hit
    reflector, so that it does NOT withstand
    a piece of steel flange,
    targeted by the ejector tooth ???
    In short, the pend0cs with their new
    the hyped ".277 SIG-Fury" is clearly
    we jumped on the old Savyan rake :-)))
  12. 0
    22 May 2025 17: 55
    the idea is more than sound... as an option - installing two barrels and polygonal rifling
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. 0
    22 May 2025 18: 13
    To cock the weapon, you need to do the same manipulation as on the M-16/M4. The bolt handle on the back of the receiver is pulled back all the way. Simple and clear, familiar to all soldiers... But no. If you pull it all the way back, it rests against the butt. So in the end, the handle must also be pulled up, and not just back.

    Considering that the buttstock in the photo is not installed in the standard position, it is not surprising that some paratrooper cannot reload the rifle.
    Attached is a photo with the buttstock installed correctly.
    1. +3
      22 May 2025 22: 45
      It's a slightly different story there.

      There, the buttstock can be moved up and down along the mount on the "butt" of the receiver. The system there is not like in the "arch", there is no return spring in the tube in the buttstock. At least the buttstock can be disconnected. Well, actually, the buttstock adjustment for a specific shooter is done in this way. But if your face is not the size of the moon, then the buttstock must be raised ... and then the handle touches it. And seeing this, SIG engineers did not redesign the buttstock, but made the cocking handle extendable upwards.

      I was just too lazy to describe it in such detail in the article, it already came out to 10k characters. And so, judging by the comments, not everyone grasped everything from the material. Of course, it is necessary to make it shorter ...
      1. +1
        23 May 2025 20: 01
        Quote: Alexander Vasilievich_4
        Of course, we need to make it shorter...
        In short - no need. It needs to be done properly.
      2. 0
        27 May 2025 18: 55
        Quote: Alexander Vasilievich_4
        It's a slightly different story there.

        Yes... I know how the Ministry of Agriculture works.
        I was able to hold in my hands the captured ones in standard NATO calibers.
        Although the guys showed something exotic - chambered for .300 BLK cartridge, unfortunately empty: the previous owner shot everything to the metal. Why the hell did that gentleman show up here with a barrel for a very niche ammunition.
  15. 0
    22 May 2025 22: 13
    I see only one serious drawback - the weight of the product. My Vepr weighs about the same - it's a lot, but its caliber is 18 mm in terms of rifled "money". The rest are shortcomings of the initial use, they can be fixed.
    We should think about counteraction. It wouldn't hurt to have a PKM in each compartment in a Lapua Magnum caliber (and, of course, with optics that would allow the capabilities of such a weapon to be realized. Normal optics, not PSO-1).
    1. +1
      24 May 2025 16: 55
      It wouldn't hurt to have a PKM in each compartment in a Lapua Magnum caliber (and, of course, with optics that would allow the capabilities of such a weapon to be realized).

      The funny thing is that this new M250 is just a PKM under Lapua with a nano-sight.
      The machine gun there weighs as much as the PKM, and the cartridge is as powerful as the Lapua.
      There are just three nuances.
      The 6,8x51 cartridge weighs significantly lighter than the Lapua Magnum.
      The machine gun can be easily converted to use the classic 7,62x51 cartridge.
      It comes with a machine gun chambered for the same cartridge and with the same sight for all other fighters in the squad.
  16. +1
    23 May 2025 16: 39
    there is nothing surprising in the increase in weight since everyone in the future will be in exoskeletons
  17. +1
    24 May 2025 15: 38
    Nevertheless, I want to express my "authoritative" opinion.
    Yes, the weapon turned out to be of dubious quality.
    But there is no need to repeat a thousand times the story about
    That is, the situation is a typical counter-insurgency operation in Afghanistan.

    This is not the first unsuccessful weapon that the Americans have adopted and used in a limited manner.
    They accepted and purchased both the 416 and the SCAR, but they did not replace the M4, and they still use the M16.
    They can afford such tricks as a strange cartridge and rearmament of individual units.
    The main thing to see here:
    This is a fundamentally new weapons system, which the Americans stubbornly did not work on as an experiment, but accepted into limited use.
    This means that their intentions to switch to a new concept of using small arms are more than serious.
    The same thing happened with the M16. The first batches were clumsy, with many problems. But the Americans stubbornly accepted it into service and began to exploit it. Along the way, they were finishing it on the go.
    The main thing we need to see in this weapon is not that the Americans have once again cut up the dough or demonstrated their inability to make good weapons thoroughly and to adopt an excellent model the first time.
    It must be seen that the Americans fundamentally want to increase the firepower of the squad and the combat range.
    They want to break through those same "300 meters" of real fire combat.
    And this requires a set of measures:
    1. A cartridge that will allow for high performance at long distances.
    What are we talking about? The Russian Armed Forces (USSR) squad currently has essentially two combat distances. The first is the effective fire distance of the PKM and SVD in the squad. The second, smaller one, is the effective fire distance of the entire squad armed with AK assault rifles.
    The Americans have truly understood the experience of Afghanistan.
    But in the sense that they assessed the firepower of units armed with PK machine guns.
    It is known that any terrorists, having a small number, can afford and prefer to act in analogous squads, in which there is not just one machine gunner with a PC, but half of the fighters, if not all.
    This is exactly what the Americans appreciated and decided to repeat.
    Apparently, they decided to try an option: a squad armed with M4-type weapons, but with the firepower of a squad armed entirely with PKMs.
    2. The limit of 300 meters of combat is determined primarily not by the cartridge, but by the physical capabilities of the person.
    To overcome this barrier, they decided to make a smart sight. There are no other options in general. Either fire in long bursts, as machine guns do. Which is impossible to implement on a weapon like a standard automatic rifle. Or fundamentally increase the accuracy of fire. Which is only possible thanks to such a smart sight.


    As a result, while we think that the Americans want to "make everyone a sniper, shoot them with a PKM machine gun, or prepare for counter-insurgency operations in the mountains," they have taken a huge step into the future by trying to decisively break through the bar of squad small arms fire capabilities.
    While we believe that a smart sight for each soldier is excessive, and overclocked ammunition is a whim. The Americans have tried to bring each "machine gunner" closer to the capabilities of a sniper and squad machine gunner.
    While we have only two people in a squad with maximum firepower, they are trying to give every shooter such opportunities.
    Let's see what happens next.
    Maybe SIG will redesign the gun to meet satisfactory specifications.
    Maybe they will moderate their wishes regarding the cartridge and make it a little weaker, redesign the machine gun or make a completely new one for the same cartridge.
    Again, we are not satisfied with this one sight alone; there are a lot of companies in the West that produce sights - in time, a whole range of similar sights will be offered and it will be like with collimators and optics for the same M4, of which there are about ten in service.
    1. +1
      24 May 2025 17: 23
      why reduce the need for weapon power (on the contrary, increase it, to about 5g at 1200 m/s). Infantry does not live long in combat, so the resource of the barrels will not be critical...
  18. +1
    25 May 2025 13: 19
    Thank you very much! Really good article. I'll put in my two cents

    A considerable part of the above mentioned shortcomings are connected with the dampness of a particular product and are subject to correction. Difficulties with reloading in certain positions of the butt are quite solvable. We had something similar with the AK-12 when in certain positions of the butt plate the case fell out and was instantly lost.

    Problems with cartridges, problems with the reliability of the sight, problems with the reset button, etc., etc. can be solved.

    But conceptual problems are completely unsolvable. That's why they are conceptual. For example, it is impossible to reduce the weight of the weapon itself or the weight of the ammunition without changing the caliber, which means abandoning the existing concept.

    And the concept is, to put it mildly, controversial. US generals are preparing for the last war, or more precisely, for shootouts with the Taliban at rifle-caliber range. The same Taliban who do not have artillery as a branch of the military.

    But Afghanistan is not the only theater of operations in the world. What is the point of this assault rifle in urban combat? What is the point of combat in "green" areas like Vietnam? And how will the weight of the weapon and ammo help when running during artillery shelling or an FPV raid? What is the point of this rifle in modern combined arms combat?

    There are plenty of examples of theaters of military operations where the advantage in effective fire range cannot be realized (since the combat range is shorter), and the disadvantages continue to be disadvantages.

    P.S. But the sighting system looks much better. There are no problems with adapting it to any other small arms with any other caliber.
  19. +2
    26 May 2025 16: 36
    The Americans are trying to return to the times of the M-14. It's funny. The bullet caliber was reduced, but the weight is almost the same as the 7.62NATO. Both the cartridge and the rifle. The BC is correspondingly 30% less with the same weight. It's a fiasco.
    1. 0
      13 September 2025 20: 14
      The most interesting thing is that the ballistics of 6,8x51 are the same as 7,62x51. They could have easily taken the same M1A, added automatic fire - and used it.
  20. kig
    +2
    30 May 2025 03: 20
    If we are going to translate the entire article about the rifle, we should add the response of the US Army, represented by its Director of Public Relations L. Patterson, to Captain Trent's speech:

    "NGSW is safe and reliable, and there have been no reported cases of cartridge ruptures. More than 1 million rounds have been fired to test the safety and performance of the weapon and ammunition."

    “During testing, the Army fired more than 20 rounds from each barrel without any degradation in performance or accuracy.”

    "There have been no reports of charging handle failures. There have been no reports of [silencer] locking mechanism failures."

    “The dual-use feature was added to allow Soldiers to operate both left- and right-handed. If Soldiers find this feature problematic, the Army will make appropriate changes in the NGSW magazine release. Soldier feedback on the side-mounted charging handle has been overwhelmingly positive.”

    “The NGSW system provides greater effect out to 300 meters and can engage the enemy at greater ranges. The NGSW Operational Assessment (OA), the test design, specifically addressed this issue with a 1-to-1 threat ratio in an offensive scenario and a 3-to-1 threat ratio in a defensive scenario,” Patterson said when asked about Trent’s comments on ammunition expenditure during a live-fire exercise he observed.

    Finally, according to Patterson, the current price per unit of the XM7, which “includes a suppressor, sling, magazines, blank-firing kit, and cleaning kit,” is currently “less than $5000”—Captain Trent claimed that a new rifle costs between $5 and $9.
  21. 0
    30 June 2025 18: 59
    Let's wish the Yankees to replace 5,56 with 6,8 as soon as possible!
  22. 0
    13 September 2025 20: 09
    I wonder how to pick out the rest of the cartridge case from the chamber with such a bottom break. I predict that a composite case, unlike a solid-drawn one, will suffer from this ailment many times more often. Let's add an even stronger kick of the bolt carrier due to greater pressure.
    I predict that when the Americans get involved in a skirmish somewhere in the jungle or cities, it will immediately turn out that the 6,8 is excessively powerful, the rifle is heavy, the ammunition is small, and it would be nice to have something lighter, with less recoil and more ammunition.