"The situation has reached a dead end": The President's Permanent Representative to the Far East Trutnev stated that Russia "will not have" the LMS-901 "Baikal" aircraft

The situation with the new light multipurpose aircraft LMS-2 Baikal, developed to replace the legendary An-901 Kukuruznik, has reached a dead end; production of the aircraft is not expected. This was stated by the Plenipotentiary Representative of the President of the Russian Federation in the Far Eastern Federal District Yuri Trutnev.

The Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation spoke at an extended session of the State Duma on the Far East and the Arctic, where he stated that the situation with the LMS-901 Baikal aircraft had reached a dead end, and its production was not expected. It is a bit unclear, is Trutnev talking about some time period or has the project finally been thrown into the trash, without even reaching certification?

You know that we have been working on developing a small aircraft "Baikal". It has reached a dead end today. That is, we do not expect to have a "Baikal" aircraft. Now we will have to get out of the situation by re-motorizing the An-2 aircraft,

- stated the presidential envoy.

It is worth noting that in early March, the Ministry of Industry and Trade announced that the LMS-901 Baikal aircraft project would not be closed, announcing a competition to perform R&D work to modify the aircraft to meet the necessary requirements. The deadline for completing the work is December 17, 2027. The aircraft needs to have its engine and propeller replaced with domestic ones without losing its performance.

The possibility of the LMS-901 Baikal project being closed was first discussed in February of this year. The aircraft encountered a number of design problems, the elimination of which could take up to 5 years and a very large sum of money, around 10 billion rubles. While a new engine for the An-2 will cost 1,8 billion.

Comments

[Trapp1st]

But business jets certainly appeared.

[expert]

Trapp 1st ,
As far as I know, of the domestic aircraft, only the tuned-up Yak-40 was used as a "business jet".
The entire main fleet consisted of "foreigners", the supply of which is now under sanctions.

[alexoff]

So do you think Chemezov bought himself a Russian business jet? It was his office that was spending the budgets

[expert]

Alexander , actually I didn’t write about buying and selling.
This kind of "business", who bought what, to whom and when, is not my topic.

[alexoff]

This is the topic of those who were assigned to make Baikal. Chemezov flies on a Boeing.

[Sid09]

The L-410 is manufactured by the Ural Civil Aviation Plant (UZGA) in Yekaterinburg. I believe that it is a fairly high-quality replacement for both the AN-2 and the LMS-901.
L-410 is a proven and reliable technology that has proven itself in Russia.

[wladimirjankov]

The L-410 is produced by the Ural Civil Aviation Plant (UZGA) in Yekaterinburg.

The Ural Civil Aviation Plant (UZGA) in Yekaterinburg is also "engaged" in the development and production of the LMS "Baikal". And we all see the results of this "activity". And the same result will be with the L-410. This UZGA could assemble the L-410 only from ready-made kits previously received from the Czech Republic. Now, due to sanctions, there are no such supplies, and UZGA is not capable of producing them itself in principle. It is conditional to call this small-scale workshop assembly and repair an aircraft plant. Hoping that this organization will be able to independently create and produce something serious is a thankless and utopian business. Almost everything that UZGA has undertaken lately ends in nothing. In addition to the above-mentioned failed projects for the LMS "Baikal" and L-410, they also include the story of the large UAV "Altius", the production of which they promised to establish in a short time. More than 5 years have passed since UZGA took this project and the flying prototype from the Kazan design bureau. And where is this "Altius" now? There is, as they say, no word about it. Total silence. Of the few things they have done well, they have assembled the "Fortpost" UAV under license from kits received from Israel. It seems that they have also managed to localize the production of components for this UAV. But you shouldn't expect UZGA to master and bring such a complex project as "Baikal" to production. "Not according to their budget." No, they will certainly use the money allocated from the treasury. They have enough experience for this. But to get the result - a modern aircraft capable of replacing the AN-2. I have big doubts about that.

[Andrey Andreev]

Here's another interesting question: where is the general designer of the Altius project now? Wasn't he, by any chance, imprisoned on trumped-up charges?

[alexoff]

What do you mean by far-fetched? They stole the money brazenly, built a jewelry store in Cyprus with it, this designer was present at the opening. They should be jailed together with the owner, who is the former son-in-law of an important politician from Kazan. True, he fled to London and from there he badmouths Russia.

[wladimirjankov]

Wasn't he, by any chance, imprisoned on trumped-up charges?

It seems the case never made it to court, which means the charges were not confirmed.

[Sergey3]

Everything you said follows from the modern Russian economic model. Effective managers are our everything. If in the buy/sell industry effective managers are capable of doing something, then in the industry that requires the most complex engineering developments, they are only capable of destroying everything to the ground, because they are absolutely incapable of understanding the essence of the work of engineers. And UZG was founded from scratch, where there is not and never was a backbone of the old, Soviet engineering personnel. They thought that they could buy specialists, but they only lured away half-trained students. It's a shame, and they stole a couple from me, I spent three years training them. However, a bunch of half-trained engineers without proper engineering management are incapable of creating anything. I myself suffer from an effective manager who was put over me. For example, today I spent the whole day writing plans and reports for him in the style of "and how do I see the prospects for the development of my division." I don't see it at all, I see a bunch of students - underachievers, each of whom needs to be worked on individually for a very, very long time in order for something to work out, and they throw work on top (useless and difficult at that), when they can't handle the routine. The chief designer must be a super specialist from God, and not an effective manager, as was the custom in the USSR, then everything will work out.

[Okko777]

"The situation has reached a dead end": The President's Permanent Representative to the Far East Trutnev stated that Russia "will not have" the LMS-901 "Baikal" aircraft

And what is he, an observer from the side? Our management has settled in well. They are the first to answer for this mess, including in aviation. They are stupid and former Komsomol members or something like that...
No results - remove. No results and the money was embezzled - go to jail... Shuffle the deck of dummies...

[Sid09]

Is it really that difficult to import to Yekaterinburg, where L-410 aircraft are produced from kits, through another country (Kazakhstan, Mongolia, China...)?
Didn't they learn to make things themselves using the parts and plans provided?

[Sergey3]

Aircraft parts are rare items, especially engines, firstly, and secondly, any replacement of components in the design means standard and flight tests, and that's oh so expensive! Who's going to pay for it? Do you think anyone will buy an airplane for more than its market value?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Sergey3

Aircraft parts are rare items, especially engines, firstly, and secondly, any replacement of components in the design means standard and flight tests, and that's oh so expensive! Who's going to pay for it? Do you think anyone will buy an airplane for more than its market value?

Did the Chinese think so too?

[Evgeny_4]

Now it is clear why people are running away from you. The level of your competence is clear. It is especially interesting when the engine became a part?

[123_123]

... It seems that by 30 there will be a little less than the planned and promised by Denis Manturov 1000+ aircraft...

[Scientist]

UZGA was actually a small repair plant. And it is clearly too early to expect mass serial production of anything from it, although it is actively developing. The same is with development. They work, but they work "for a newbie", and to create an aircraft to adequately replace the legendary AN-2, not only knowledge is needed, but also experience, and this is time.
But in general, we need a system where specialists would lead, and not thieving managers, but who would allow them to do that?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: U. Cheny

But in general, we need a system where specialists would lead, and not thieving managers, but who would allow them to do that?

I think it's not just a matter of "thieving managers", but also a lack of experienced and competent designers.
It seems that the design was specifically entrusted to someone who obviously would not be able to do it.
Given the urgent need to create such an aircraft, the management could have assigned this task to an experienced design bureau. Or have they all been fired? Is only the Sukhoi design bureau left?

[fruc]

Situation... LMS-901 "Baikal" has reached a dead end

I would be surprised if it didn't come in. Again, the foreign "partners" have taken a stand. If the development of aviation technology was "given a big no" in its time, then what is there to be indignant about now?

[tralflot1832]

Eugene we're leaving, the article on the site is not entirely complete. Here is a continuation of what Trutnev said.

[expert]

Thank you!
What a bunch of journalists! How many times have I told myself not to react to information that I haven't verified myself. In this case, I fell victim to the trust in our site...

[topol717]

The 600 meter takeoff run for such a bug didn't impress anyone? The AN-2 needs a 250 meter runway, okay 300, but here they included 600 in the performance characteristics and they can't even provide that.

[Boniface]

The An-2 has a wing loading of 72,5 kg/mXNUMX.
It's a biplane!
"Baikal" is not a biplane, I did not find data on the specific load! But this parameter is strictly connected with the required takeoff speed (the minimum speed required to generate the required lift) and, as a consequence, the required runway length to achieve the liftoff speed

[topol717]

Quote: Boniface

It's a biplane!
"Baikal" is not a biplane

As a buyer, I don't care whether it's a biplane, triplane or monoplane. What was the person who made the technical specifications for the development thinking? Has he been to the places where these planes fly now? Who approved this technical specification for him?

[Lionnvrsk]

Quote from: topol717

What was the person who made the technical specifications for the development thinking about?... Who approved these technical specifications for him?

You don't even need to try three times to guess.
"Saw, Shura, saw! They are golden."

[shikin]

It's not that simple. The Yak-3's takeoff run is given as 345 meters with a wing loading of about 180 kg/m101. The T-120 "Rook" has a wing loading of about 2 kg/m600, and its takeoff and landing characteristics were close to the An-XNUMX. Completely different figures are given for the "Baikal" too, XNUMX meters is too much. Perhaps we are not talking about the takeoff distance, but about the required runway length (which is not the same thing at all).

[expert]

Oh, namesake, don't add salt to sugar. It's so painful to realize all this disgrace.
Capitalism (that's how N.S. Khrushchev said it, with a soft sign), may it go to hell!

[Paranoid62]

Quote from: topol717

The 600 meter takeoff run for such a bug didn't impress anyone? The AN-2 needs a 250 meter runway, okay, 300

I saw the numbers 1200 (for the new one) and 600 (for the AN-2), I'm too lazy to look for them - I've only just come from work.

Do not extend strips of all small airfields twice - a completely correct reason for rejecting the "new" and re-motorizing the AN-2. That's how I see it.

[topol717]

Quote: Paranoid62

I saw the numbers 1200 (for the new one) and 600 (for the AN-2), I'm too lazy to look for them - I've only just come from work.

This is clear, the runway cannot be equal to the takeoff roll. The AN-2 has a roll of 250 meters, therefore the runway should be larger, for example + 100 meters on each side is quite a normal indicator, plus space for turning, etc.

[antikilller55]

Thank you, the meaning of the article has really changed 180 degrees.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: tralflot1832

Eugene we're leaving, the article on the site is not entirely complete. Here is a continuation of what Trutnev said.

These photos are the reality of our modern design school...

[Kovacs]

Quote: Fachmann

Trapp 1st ,
As far as I know, of the domestic aircraft, only the tuned-up Yak-40 was used as a "business jet".
The entire main fleet consisted of "foreigners", the supply of which is now under sanctions.

It was meant that the jets appeared in the hands of the right people, the ones who were at the saw on the Baikal project...

[seregatara1969]

But they handed over their factories for scrap metal. There are no aircraft factories, no personnel.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Trapp1st

But business jets certainly appeared.

Name the brand of Russian-made business jet. And those that businessmen buy abroad are in no way connected with the production of "Baikals"

[Trapp1st]

Name the brand of Russian-made business jet.

I didn't say anything about the Russians. The money was allocated for the LMS-901 "Baikal"...

[Piramidon]

Quote: Trapp1st

I didn't say anything about the Russians. The money was allocated for the LMS-901 "Baikal"...

Then why connect the problems with the production of "Baikal" with business jets? Abramovich bought himself a foreign plane, so Russian planes are not produced. Now if only he flew the An-2... Is that how it works?

[UA3QHP]

Then why connect the problems with the production of "Baikal" with business jets?

The problems are that the money spent on "Baikal" went to business jets. That's why "Baikal" won't fly. And anyway, it shouldn't have flown. It's kind of scary.

[valentine]

That's right, a freak. Much worse than a corncob.

[Kovacs]

Quote: valentber

That's right, a freak. Much worse than a corncob.

I don't understand at all why the hell a goat needs a button accordion?! She doesn't even know how to play...
There is the AN-2, which has proven itself for decades, wouldn't it be easier to give it a thorough modernization? Just without fanaticism, so that it remains easy to operate and maintain, but becomes even more reliable.
Although, under such conditions, there is nothing to steal on this project, it won’t work...

[valentine]

Exactly. The main thing here is to saw, not to modernize.

[Kovacs]

Quote: valentber

Exactly. The main thing here is to saw, not to modernize.

In your word "nail" you need to insert "z" and "d", and it will be as it should be, only they will ban you...

[valentine]

Thank you! Next time - definitely.

[Trapp1st]

Then why connect the problems with the production of "Baikal" with business jets?

This is such sarcasm, where did the money go?

[alexoff]

Then why connect the problems with the production of "Baikal" with business jets?

because Rostec's top brass used the money allocated for the development of the Russian aircraft to buy foreign business jets. It's like how automakers beg for budget money and drive Lexuses

[barclay]

The plane needs to have its engine and propeller replaced with domestic ones without losing its performance.
It is necessary to change the brains of engineers or the hands of workers. Don't have your own? Buy specialists!!! They exist in the world.
Ugh... Headless and armless... Where does the money go?
They've been chewing on this corncob for 20 years now!
During this time, the country was rebuilt after the war, but here they can’t make an engine with a propeller.
Shame on you ...

[Trapp1st]

They've been chewing on this corncob for 20 years now!

[Aristarkh Verkhozin]

Quote: Trapp1st

They've been chewing on this corncob for 20 years now!

After 6 years of embezzlement of the state budget, the project has reached a dead end.

[valentine]

The cool one sang. Trutnev, but he steals successfully.

[mz]

Quote: barclay

It is necessary to change the brains of engineers or the hands of workers. Don't have your own? Buy specialists!!! They exist in the world.
Ugh... Headless and armless... Where does the money go?

I think that we have engineers with brains and workers with hands. And they don't need to change anything. These people just use them where they are paid normal money for their brains and hands. And the money goes, I suspect, not to their salaries, but to completely different purposes and to completely different people... That's why there are almost no good engineers and workers in design and the aviation industry.
Look at salaries for vacancies at aircraft design bureaus and aircraft factories.
And the money - yes, it goes (somewhere)...

[valentine]

not under this government. It was not put in place to create. It only knows how to steal. Look at the government: thoughts rarely visit these mugs.

[Evgeny_4]

This is absolutely true.
There are still people with brains and hands.
But they are fleeing the aviation industry because managers are in charge there.

[Good Evil]

Quote: barclay

It is necessary to change the brains of engineers or the hands of workers.

Just don't listen to these songs about engineers and workers! It's not them who are sawing up the budget, but effective managers and other high-ranking camarilla!

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Good evil

Quote: barclay

It is necessary to change the brains of engineers or the hands of workers.

Just don't listen to these songs about engineers and workers! It's not them who are sawing up the budget, but effective managers and other high-ranking camarilla!

Yes, yes, it was the "effective managers and camarilla" who climbed into the designers' computers at night and messed around there. They changed the shape of the wings so that they became worse than the planes of the time of Nicholas II.
They changed everything so cleverly that the great designers who came to work in the morning didn’t notice the changes at all.
Brilliant effective managers? Aren't they?
Oh, these "effective managers" -
learn the reality of life. The designers have degraded so much that .

[mz]

Quote: SovAr238A

Yes, yes, it was the "effective managers and camarilla" who climbed into the designers' computers at night and messed around there. They changed the shape of the wings so that they became worse than the planes of the time of Nicholas II.
They changed everything so cleverly that the great designers who came to work in the morning didn’t notice the changes at all.
Brilliant effective managers? Aren't they?
Oh, these "effective managers" -
learn the reality of life. The designers have degraded so much that

But you do not consider the option that designers degraded precisely because managers did not provide good working conditions and high salaries for designers, so that people would want to study and go to work in the design bureau as designers, did not provide normal successive training of new people, so that the best young specialists would go to work in the design bureau. The principle "Personnel decide everything" is in principle incomprehensible to effective managers. But they did not forget to saw off the allocated money. Therefore, the allocated money was spent, but there is no result...

[Revolver]

Quote: barclay

but here they can't make an engine with a propeller.

Aircraft engines were still a problem in the USSR. The military had somehow learned how to make them, and in civil aircraft, instead of "thrust at any cost in a given size and weight," efficiency, low noise, and, most importantly, much higher reliability are required - catapults are not provided on airliners. So the IL-86 flew to America with two intermediate landings for refueling, and the Boeing 767, with comparable sizes and tank volumes, flew nonstop. So Russian airlines switched to Boeing and Airbus at the first opportunity, because it was more profitable to operate. But if Ilyushin and Tupolev had access to Western engines, or, even better, to domestic ones with similar characteristics, things could have been different.
As Glushko said, "With a good motor, even the gates will fly."

[Kovacs]

Quote: Trapp1st

But business jets certainly appeared.

Isn't it the permanent representative's job to take by the scruff of the neck all those who squandered crazy amounts of money at the design stage?! There's an airframe, but no engine... Maybe they developed it in the wrong place? Or maybe it was developed in the right place, where it's more convenient to steal. They made an engine for the MS-21, for Sukhoi, they're ready to modernize the engine for the same AN-2, but here we're at a dead end, the stone flower just won't come out! Maybe we should change the master?! And the engine from AN won't pull Baikal?! Oprichniks are needed, oh how they are needed...

[valentine]

T rutnev is stupid in principle. Why him? He's someone's own.

[Kovacs]

Quote: valentber

T rutnev is stupid in principle. Why him? He's someone's own.

A typical huckster. Started as a "Komsomolets" in sports, then sold exercise machines, sold chocolate and cars, eventually bought the governor's elections in Perm and lived happily, co-owning a supermarket chain. He licked/greased and moved to the position of permanent representative... A typical businessman from the 90s. Damn...

[valentine]

The whole government is like that. You can't expect anything from them for the country. But it looks like they won't fall away on their own.

[Kovacs]

Quote: valentber

The whole government is like that. You can't expect anything from them for the country. But it looks like they won't fall away on their own.

In 1918-20 the Bolsheviks tore off the leeches, then knocked out the teeth of the invaders. A similar situation is developing, when the lower classes do not want and the upper classes cannot. But we have developed immunity during the revolution, too much blood has been spilled...

[valentine]

We'll chew snot, and even more will spill. We're being driven into a dead end.

[Kovacs]

Quote: valentber

We'll chew snot, and even more will spill. We're being driven into a dead end.

I'm afraid the restorers will have a lot of work to do in restoring the ancient Kremlin when we get out of the impasse...

[Revolver]

Quote: Kovacs

And Baikal won't be able to handle the movement from AN?!

ASH-62. Piston star, requires aviation gasoline, which it guzzles like crazy, and regular overhaul. Economically unprofitable.
Turboprop runs on kerosene, is more economical, and in theory has a longer time between repairs.
And the main thing is that the good old ASh-62 is no longer produced in Russia, and the equipment has long been scrapped. It is produced in China, and the goal of the Baikal project and others like it is import substitution. And personally, I would be afraid to fly on a motor made in China, with that world-famous Chinese quality.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Really? Modern piston engines fly quite well on 95-octane gasoline. And, although they are inferior in fuel efficiency to turboprops, they are several times cheaper both in production and in operation.

[Revolver]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Modern piston engines fly quite well on 95-octane gasoline.

A 95m engine of comparable power will be noticeably larger and heavier than the ASH-62. And if you fill the ASH-62 with 95m, it will knock even more, pulling it onto the runway. Of course, you can try to de-rate it, but then it will lose so much power that it may not take off, certainly not with a 300-meter run. It's not like you put a gasket in a Zhiguli so that it can drive an A-76.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I bet you're from Ukraine. The name Glushko is practically unknown in Russia. I only know it because I knew his son, he lived or lives in Russia, he's a veteran of the war in Afghanistan.
That's why you write all sorts of crap.

[Revolver]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The surname Glushko is practically unknown in Russia.

Valentin Petrovich Glushko (August 20 (September 2), 1908, Odessa - January 10, 1989, Moscow) - Soviet engineer and scientist in the field of rocket and space technology. One of the pioneers of rocket and space technology, the founder of Soviet liquid rocket engine building.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Глушко,_Валентин_Петрович

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

You are from Ukraine.

I've never been on the 404 in my life, and I've never been closer to it than Gomel. I'm a native Leningrader, my great-grandfather was a merchant of the First Guild in St. Petersburg. According to his passport, he's an American.

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

I bet

Unfortunately, it is not possible to get your loss back due to the same sanctions, may Biden be roasted in hell for them.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This is not the same Glushko. The one you refer to is most likely still alive. He was definitely alive two years ago, I haven't been interested since then.

[Revolver]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

This is not the same Glushko. The one you refer to is most likely still alive.

I have not heard of other Glushkos. Although I admit that there are many of them, there is a whole list of them in Vika. But since Glushko dropped this phrase, if you believe the legend, in an argument with S. P. Korolev, then most likely it is him.

[mz]

Quote: Nagan

A 95m engine of comparable power will be noticeably larger and heavier than the ASH-62. And if you fill the ASH-62 with 95m, it will knock even more, pulling it onto the runway. Of course, you can try to de-rate it, but then it will lose so much power that it may not take off, certainly not with a 300-meter run. It's not like you put a gasket in a Zhiguli so that it can drive an A-76.

Why is it knocking? The fuel for the ASH-62 is aviation gasoline B-91/115 with an octane rating of 91 (115 is the grade for a rich mixture). The compression ratio of the ASH-62 is 6.4. If it weren't for the air cooling, which inevitably results in a higher temperature of the cylinder heads and the mixture in the combustion chamber, and if it weren't for the operation on an over-enriched mixture during takeoff, then AI-80 would have been suitable.

[hector]

Quote: Nagan

And personally, I would be afraid to fly on a motor made in China, with that world-famous Chinese quality.

Chinese quality already gives a head start to Russian quality.

[Revolver]

Quote: ettore

Chinese quality already gives a head start to Russian quality.

When sanctions made Tula 7.62x54R cartridges rare here and more expensive, I tried Chinese ones, only twice, the first and the last. I'd rather pay more for Tula ones.

[hector]

Quote: Nagan

When sanctions made Tula 7.62x54R cartridges rare here and more expensive, I tried Chinese ones, only twice, the first and the last. I'd rather pay more for Tula ones.

My hunter friends, on the contrary, are very unhappy with Russian cartridges, the unstable powder charge, the quality of the powder itself, and the uneven weight.
bullets or shot. Everyone reloads their own cartridges.
P.S. There is still some positive Russian quality in the defense industry, but not so much in the civilian sector.

[faiver]

7.62x54R being reloaded?

[hector]

No

The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information.

[Mazunga]

but only from the right one))) and for you, residents of Siberia and the far north, a corncob will help, or buy a paraglider

[expert]

How should this be understood? Arrived or flown in?
Landed without taking off...

[Uncle lee]

While a new engine for the An-2 will cost 1,8 billion.

The pistons are platinum, the valves are gold, the cylinders are pure silver, and the screw is encrusted with rubies, like the Kremlin stars!

[your vsr 66-67]

Quote: Uncle Lee

While a new engine for the An-2 will cost 1,8 billion.

The pistons are platinum, the valves are gold, the cylinders are pure silver, and the screw is encrusted with rubies, like the Kremlin stars!

I also thought, what kind of engine is this for 1,8 billion?
The AN 2 has been flying for, if I'm not mistaken, 50 years! How much does its engine cost?
Yeah, we know how to make money out of thin air!

[Churchill]

It's been flying since 1948, I think, so that's how you count it. Our TU-95 also took off in 1952.

[your vsr 66-67]

Quote: Churchill

It's been flying since 1948, I think, so that's how you count it. Our TU-95 also took off in 1952.

I couldn't say for sure. Just off the top of my head.
If since 1948, then he is almost my age.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: your vsr 66-67

Quote: Uncle Lee

While a new engine for the An-2 will cost 1,8 billion.

The pistons are platinum, the valves are gold, the cylinders are pure silver, and the screw is encrusted with rubies, like the Kremlin stars!

I also thought, what kind of engine is this for 1,8 billion?
The AN 2 has been flying for, if I'm not mistaken, 50 years! How much does its engine cost?
Yeah, we know how to make money out of thin air!

That's the cost of developing an engine... not per unit.

[Kovacs]

Quote: Uncle Lee

While a new engine for the An-2 will cost 1,8 billion.

The pistons are platinum, the valves are gold, the cylinders are pure silver, and the screw is encrusted with rubies, like the Kremlin stars!

My name is Permanent Representative Trutnev... Normal bees usually throw drones out of the hives, but this one has stuck to the Komsomol in his time and is still going...

[Sky strike fighter]

What does Trutnev have to do with it? Is he responsible for aviation in our country? No. Then why is he getting into an area of ​​activity where he has no authority? The only alternative to the LMS-901 Baikal aircraft will be a scooter. Or is Trutnev satisfied with this alternative? The Ministry of Industry and Trade has decided not to close the Baikal LMS-901 project, but to improve it. As part of the improvement, a competition will be held to replace the imported engine and propeller with Russian analogues. The maximum cost of the work is 10,4 billion rubles; they are planned to be completed in three years.
The project's refinement involves replacing the imported engine and propeller, which were envisaged by the original project, with Russian analogues. As is currently known, the LMS-901 prototypes are equipped with American engines H80-100BC01E General Electric Aviation and American four-bladed propellers HCB4TW-3 from Hartzell Propellers Inc. In 2022, the US partners refused to participate in the certification work for the LMS-901 for obvious reasons. In September 2024, First Deputy Prime Minister Denis Manturov ordered that the aircraft with Russian units be certified by December 2026.
Within the framework of the state contract for the modification of the aircraft, the prototypes of the VK-800SM engine (this engine already exists, UZGA has been working on it since 2018) and the AV-901Yu propeller must be modified, and certification work must be carried out and the working design documentation must be adjusted. To date, 3 prototypes of the VK-800SM and 5 prototypes of the AV-901 propeller have been manufactured. So what do you want if the initial bet was made on foreign components? Naturally, due to the sanctions, we need to be patient and let the aircraft be modified and import-substituted. And not get hysterical and say that the project must be closed. The only alternative to this project is a scooter. There is no other way. The aircraft must be modified. It is our own fault that we relied on Western components. Here are the consequences of this choice.

[andranick]

Who needs him at that price?! A stillborn child...

[Sky strike fighter]

So we don't need planes in principle? Did I understand you correctly? What alternatives do you propose other than closing everything and giving up on everything?

[andranick]

But don't attribute your speculations to me. We need our own planes like air, in particular - ones as simple and reliable as the An-2. And I suggest we ignore not everything, but some international rules that will not prevent the new plane from being used within the country, but cost a lot of money. The An-2 is in demand now, although where is it and where are those rules?

[valentine]

The regime doesn't need planes, they arrived in the pocket of Trutnev and Co. They won't bring anything. This regime isn't about the country, it's about plundering to ashes.

[alexoff]

As part of the refinement, a competition will be held to replace the imported engine and propeller with Russian analogues.

and then there will be modifications to the hull, since it is poorly balanced. And then the chassis. Who would have thought in 2019 that the Americans would not sell their engines? Everything was fine!

[Sky strike fighter]

Well, it's the same story as with the SSJ-100 and MS-21-300, which also took a long time to redesign and import-substitute. Following your logic, they also shouldn't have been import-substituted, but simply ignored? But then we wouldn't have been so happy about the first flights of the fully import-substituted SSJ-100 and MS-21-310. And yes, the LMS-901 is much easier to import-substitute than the SSJ-100 and MS-21-310, especially since 3 prototypes of the VK-800SM and 5 prototypes of the AV-901 propeller have been manufactured. We just need to be patient and bring the matter to its logical conclusion - complete the import substitution of the LMS-901.

[alexoff]

Following your logic, they

there was no need to produce, it was necessary to continue work on the Tu-334 and Tu-214. And not to create problems and then unsuccessfully solve them.

[Sky strike fighter]

Maybe it was necessary. At one time. But what's done is done. Now it is illogical to return to the older Tu-334 and Tu-214 given the availability of newer passenger aircraft. Although the same Tu-214 will come in handy given the shortage of passenger aircraft, especially if the cabin is redesigned for 2 crew members. Although for the time being it will be fine with 3 crew members. Now we will not have any extra aircraft for a long time, so we will have to produce everything we can for a long time.

[alexoff]

Maybe it should have been. At the time. But what's done is done.

Well, yes, they broke the old, they didn't make the new, you just have to be patient, understand and forgive, you don't change donkeys in midstream...

[Sky strike fighter]

That is, the fact that they fly, albeit experienced, but still new SSJ-100 and MS-21-310, does not count? Although you will rightly say that they should have been available to our airlines by the dozens, if not hundreds, long ago. Yes, I would like to. But for now at least there is light at the end of the tunnel. At least the prospects are visible for all these long-term ordeals with our civil aviation.

[alexoff]

That is, the fact that the SSJ-100 and MC-21-310, albeit experienced, but still new, do not count?

They are not in production, but they say the management is asking to sell Boeings. Considering the money spent over the decades, the result is depressing.

Yes, I would like to. But for now at least there is light at the end of the tunnel. At least the prospects for all these long-term ordeals with our civil aviation are visible.

a budget hole is visible that no one is going to patch.

[faiver]

You are 100% right about the donkeys

[Oldrover]

Then there would be nothing at all, it would be like with Baikal, if these effective managers started to improve the Tu-334 and Tu-214, airlines (even Russian ones) would demand international certification, etc.

[alexoff]

if these effective managers

and back then there was still a design school, and the institute of effective managers was just taking its first steps

[valentine]

I propose to allow the ENTIRE CAMARILLA to fill all their pockets, planes, etc. carts and get out of Russia forever. Otherwise we will start shooting. Enough of these nits.

[barclay]

As part of the upgrade, a competition will be held to replace the imported engine and propeller with Russian analogues.
And can you tell me when the import substitution campaign began in our country? For 5 years or more? For some reason, during this time the creators of this miracle did not come up with the idea of ​​developing their own engine - the heart of the plane? It is unclear what they are doing there. It seems that they are good specialists in extracting money and embezzling it.

[Sky strike fighter]

I repeat. Three prototypes of the VK-3SM have already been manufactured. And as for the speed of work, maybe someone is missing a magic kick and a catch-up to speed up the work process. But then again, how many years did they spend on the same Su-800, and they could have just as freaked out and abandoned the project, but thank God they finished it.

[barclay]

Apparently, our style is to stretch the pleasure of mastering the means to infinity. This is the main task of the creators.
The power of aircraft manufacturing... ugh

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

No matter how much you repeat it, the project is a failure by all accounts. And, most likely, it was intended that way. A kind of trap for the patriotically minded public and some officials. It happens when obviously failed ideas are laid down at the earliest stage.
Firstly, this is an unsuccessful fuselage layout and landing gear arrangement. How it should be done can be seen on the earlier M-101T Gzhel model.
Secondly, the wrong engine was chosen. The more successful M-101T "Gzhel" failed for the same reason. An airplane for small aviation cannot have a turboprop engine, it is too expensive, including maintenance. It is expensive for Russia, not for the USA.
Thirdly, the plane must have piston engines and there must be two of them, for cheapness and reliability.
The aircraft should have been built according to the An-14 "Bee" design or even based on the American light attack aircraft OV-10 Bronco

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

An aircraft for small aviation cannot have a turboprop engine, it is too expensive, including maintenance. It is expensive for Russia, but not for the USA.
Thirdly, the plane must have piston engines and there must be two of them, for cheapness and reliability.
The aircraft should have been built according to the An-14 "Bee" design or even based on the American light attack aircraft OV-10 Bronco

History and the course of events can no longer be returned.
Stuffing is impossible to turn back.
The most famous company producing light twin-engine aircraft, Beechcraft, abandoned piston engines in its twin-engine aircraft almost from the end of the 60s.
In my opinion, they left the internal combustion engine in literally 2-3 models with a number of passengers no more than 5.
For the most backward buyers.

My opinion.
there is no need to invent a new plane from scratch.
You just need to copy something from the American Cessnas or Beechcrafts.
There are the most successful models that have been produced for 50-60 years and do not lose their relevance.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There is no need to copy anything from abroad, there is a different economy and a different service culture. If you really want to, take a ready-made "Gzhel", M-101T.
Expensive? So do you want checkers or go? If checkers, then expect another failed project.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

I repeat. Three prototypes of the VK-3SM have already been manufactured. And as for the speed of work, maybe someone is missing a magic kick and a catch-up to speed up the work process. But then again, how many years did they spend on the same Su-800, and they could have just as freaked out and abandoned the project, but thank God they finished it.

The wing also needs to be changed.
Instead of the 300 meters actually required (and it is precisely for such strips that it is needed), they first set the figure at 600, and then said that Baikal needs at least 1200 meters, there is no other way.

Where will you find field, forest, meadow airdrones with a runway longer than 2 meters for Baikal, as a replacement for the An-300?

This Baikal is dead.
Dead, no one needs him.
A fraudulent project.
I just sawed up a 20 year old one.
They allocated money for their own salaries for many years.
And now everything is just coming to light.
That Baikal will never replace An-2.
And why did they do it then?

[Tooks]

There are a couple of very unpleasant moments. We still have a huge shortage of personnel and it was not worth giving the project to UZGA. They have never designed anything.
It is possible to revive the An-3, the works of SibNIA, the projects of Yakovlev and Ilyushin. Alas, the stupidest option was chosen. The result is logical.

[Lptsk]

yes, there is a problem with the engines and propellers. there is no turboshaft engine

[Tooks]

Well, for example, the Yak-58 was designed for the M-14. Is there a place and who can produce it?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

M-14 is an air-cooled engine, there is no need in civil engineering to follow the path of simplification and primitivism, at the expense of a deliberate reduction in resource. Since the mid-20th century, modern cooling liquids and modern cooling system pumps have appeared.

[Tooks]

You can tell about this, for example, Continental Aerospace Technologies

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

So why don't you drive a Zaporozhets? There used to be a lot of them parked along the highway with overheated engines and raised trunks/hoods.

[Tooks]

We are talking about aircraft engines. Lycoming also makes engines with VO for some reason.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

So they like it. If they like it and it makes them feel good, why bother them?

[Tooks]

It's not a matter of liking it, it's that they can do it. And we, alas, have forgotten how. Whose piston engines are on our UAVs (the same "Orion")? Exactly.

[valentine]

just like Trump: everyone bends whatever they want. Trutnev doesn't know about the Ministry of Industry and Trade's decision?

[Sky strike fighter]

I don’t understand at all why Trutnev is getting into areas of activity that aren’t his.

[valentine]

Probably, a snout in fluff. He's afraid. But in general, it's unclear what's going on there. But the money was stolen.

[Kovacs]

By any chance, don't we have any military engines that are suitable for modernization? I'm not a pilot, rather the opposite, I'm one of the grounders, don't kick me too hard...

[Sky strike fighter]

No. The military itself is waiting for the VK-800SM for the Altius-RU UAV. In addition, the VK-800SM should be installed on the new light passenger LMS-901 "Baikal" (1 engine), the promising passenger aircraft LMS-192 "Osvey" (2 engines) and the UTS-800 training aircraft for the Russian Aerospace Forces (1 engine).

[Kovacs]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

No. The military themselves are waiting for the VK-800SM for the Altius-RU UAV. In addition, the VK-800SM should be installed on the new light passenger LMS-901 "Baikal" (1 engine),

If so, then what is the article about?! If the engine will be there soon, then what the hell billions does anyone need for an engine for "Baikal"?! And we seem to have machine guns, and we are producing green paint to smear our foreheads, what's the matter?!!

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The engine may be there soon, but the engine is expensive, no one will buy it for that kind of money. And turboprop engines are expensive to operate, they are not car engines, you understand.

[novel66]

It's a shame to fail to replicate an aircraft that has been in production for decades, even with new technologies. Well, let them fall at the feet of the Chinese - they don't seem to have any problems

[valentine]

Everything is in order. Trutnev was imprisoned not for creation, but for theft. He copes without any comments.

[rocket757]

Unfortunately, there are significant losses in various areas of industry and it is not easy to restore everything that is needed...
What is needed to overcome the problem, restore production... I don’t even want to list it, it was there, we talked about it, we discussed it, but nothing has happened.

[expert]

Sad, very sad.
The replacement of the old An-2 was overdue DECADES ago!

[rocket757]

It's sad, that's understandable... what's tense is that those who destroyed everything are still hanging around with the authorities, and even retained all the influence of their positions...

[expert]

Moreover, I am sure that many have risen significantly up the financial and career ladder.
Their place is in prison, at the very least!

[rocket757]

The process of purification... dreams, dreams, but it is naive and useless to connect them with this power...

[Nexcom]

FSB in Kazan detained the CEO of a company for fraud with the State Defense Order

https://www.kp.ru/online/news/6373277/

[Kovacs]

Quote: Nexcom

FSB in Kazan detained the CEO of a company for fraud with the State Defense Order

https://www.kp.ru/online/news/6373277/

They used to say: if you worked in trade for three years, you can safely go to jail. It is still quite relevant today, for everyone who works in government procurement...

[sergey4791]

Their place is in prison, at the very least!

Why in prison? So that they can continue to be fed with budget money? Their place is in a logging camp, somewhere in Siberia. So that at least the state would benefit.

[expert]

Sergey,
"at least" is what I wrote.
And then, there are a great many options, including the death penalty as an exceptional measure of punishment.

[Kovacs]

Quote: Fachmann

Sergey,
"at least" is what I wrote.
And then, there are a great many options, including the death penalty as an exceptional measure of punishment.

In the Far East, continue digging the tunnel to Sakhalin, which Stalin did not finish, with an exit to Hokkaido...

[expert]

Exactly, for me, as a native Sakhalin resident, this is a real balm for the soul!
Only if they dig by hand, with a pick and a shovel.

[Alexander K]

And who, in your opinion, should work on such a project for free?

[rocket757]

What are you talking about?
We have capitalism, everything comes down to profit, in the end...
What is the question then?

[Alexander K]

For several years, a team of developers must, at their own expense or on credit at 25+% per annum, develop something that may never pay off. And not for pennies, and not on paper. But with pilot-industrial production for pennies. Moreover, even in the best years, usually one project out of 10 takes off. If you go to the state to bow down, then with 90% probability the team will go to prison.
Rusnano won't let you lie.
If the results are sent to a third-party production facility, then all the profit goes to it.
There is no economic sense in showing patriotic heroism. Smart people will avoid this project. And the not so smart ones lack the qualifications.

[rocket757]

It's the same as everyone else, capitalism... at what stage, that's also clear.
Rich Pinocchios buy yachts and other things for them for national projects, but only at gunpoint... but we don't have this and won't have it, because a crow won't peck out another crow's eye.
The state... it serves the interests of the ruling class because it is their state...

[Alexander K]

Are you ready to fork out? Start with yourself. Everyone knows how to criticize. But only a few do it.

[rocket757]

Fork out... from what millions? Ordinary people don't have them.
We do what we can...
By the way, the question is not about taking away and dividing, the question is... in general, everything is written in textbooks, it’s sad that people have begun to forget about them, because everything is clearly described there, shown, and everything is proven by life itself.

[Alexander K]

Judging by the way people are robbed by scammers, people have money, don't play poor

[rocket757]

People save money in different ways, but for the most part, if they save something, it’s for “pills” or “coffin money”... ordinary people DO NOT have money for “yachts”.
Oh yeah, the officials, former or current, how they are being conned out of money... are they just working people, and they are being conned out of money because they have a cannon on their porch! They should not be counted among the "people, the nation", they are from a different category.

[Alexander K]

Everything is black and white for you. Either the people are poor or the officials are greedy. And that's a lie.

[rocket757]

No, no, that's not the point of the complaint about black and white...
I don't consider the small/middle bourgeoisie to be any significant phenomenon in our society. In our country, and in the world, big capital rules, basically, and everyone else is on their payroll/on the side, except for those who are their principled opponents.
By the way, in the textbook, everything about small-scale landownership is clearly described, and history has confirmed it many times.

[Alexander K]

You yourself are signing up for black and white thinking.
As for the working class, it basically doesn't exist now. I deal with production, and I can testify that the number of working hands has decreased by an order of magnitude. There is simply no need for them. This also applies to the peasantry. Therefore, the overwhelming majority of the population now is precisely the petty bourgeoisie.

[rocket757]

Come on, who are the petty bourgeois, by definition?

[rocket757]

In pursuit... does the petty bourgeoisie consider itself part of the ruling class or what?
In general, questions to which there are only made-up answers, needed by a certain group of people who want to rule always and the way they want...
There is not a penny of truth there.

[Alexander K]

It all comes down to risks, not profit. And the risks are huge, incomparable with the possible profit. Especially since there will always be a lot of people who can't do anything, but dare to reproach success. What's the point of trying?

[A. Evert]

The plane is good. Reliable, easy to operate, inexpensive to produce and does not require specially equipped airfields.

[your1970]

Quote: A. Evert

The plane is good. Reliable, easy to operate, inexpensive to produce and does not require specially equipped airfields.

According to the operating rules in force in the USSR, there are already problems with this now.

[A. Evert]

I wrote below that maybe they are going to re-release it with a new engine...

[Kovacs]

Quote: your1970

According to the operating rules in force in the USSR, there are already problems with this now.

There are many airfields in the country where concrete runways have never been heard of. Russia, with its vast expanses, needs equipment that is simple to the point of being ugly, repairable with wire, and capable of flying and crawling where wolves are afraid to shit...

[your1970]

Quote: Kovacs

simple to the point of ugliness, repairable with wire and capable of flying and crawling where wolves are afraid to shit...

The problem is that now NOT USSR - which means that in the event of the death of an airplane and people, insurance companies will simply refuse to pay out for this "wire".
The relatives of the deceased orchestra members said in unison, "7 million for the deceased serviceman is not enough for us - the flight was international, so we are owed at least 21 million!"
And they went to the ECHR...
It was in the USSR that they stuck a screw on a grave, "Sleep peacefully, dear comrade!" and that's it.
And now it's all about money - people are suing for the dead.
Therefore, the "wire" is eliminated...

[Kovacs]

Quote: Fachmann

Sad, very sad.
The replacement of the old An-2 was overdue DECADES ago!

What's stopping you from using your grandfather's An-2 as a base to produce a grandson, young and healthy?! Repeat the airframe, rebuild the engine for now and, without hammering the bolts with a sledgehammer, assemble the plane normally, replacing what needs to be replaced? I don't think that reassembling the airframe is a problem, the main thing is to leave reliability and ease of maintenance - you can't always find spare parts somewhere in Tiksi...

[expert]

Kovacs , honestly, from my point of view I don’t understand a damn thing!
The country makes spaceships and nuclear-powered ships, but to make a regional aircraft is a PROBLEM.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Everything is simple and clear. The Il-14 was a good regional aircraft. The engine was air-cooled, with all the attendant problems. But it was ruined by the Ukrainian lobby, which insisted on switching to the An-28, an aircraft with turboprop engines. As expected, the Ukrainian project failed. A regional aircraft with turboprop engines is unprofitable. Nevertheless, the Antonov Design Bureau accomplished its task, the competitor was defeated.
The An-2 is a dead-end model. It was already obsolete at the time of its launch into production. The model, however, was exploited to the fullest until it reached its end. The An-2 was abandoned back in the USSR. And they switched to turboprop engines. The race for checkers began, instead of driving. Following the An-2, the piston twin-engine An-14 was also closed.
Then it suddenly turned out that turboprop engines are expensive to produce and operate. But admitting this means admitting the concept of progress has failed. And this should never be done. Checkers are more important than driving.
But then, businessmen from S7 snuck up and ordered a Tango airplane with a piston engine.
Let's stock up on popcorn and see what wins, common sense or the concept of progress, no matter what.

[valentine]

What do you want from a former Komsa? All he knows how to do is guzzle vodka and write formal letters.

[atomicuncle]

I think this is a bad job by the plenipotentiary, very bad. This is not an answer of 'there will be no plane'.
Find out who stole what, return the money (they don't disappear in such quantities, they just get a 'new owner'), give the engine to the Chinese or North Koreans for modification, they will definitely bring it up to compliance with the technical specifications. The latter can also be given the glider itself, they will even be happy to help, you can even invite them to build technical facilities and launch production, they will handle it.
Putting these sanctions on - no one will ever lift them.
I apologize to those whose feelings I hurt/offended by comparing Plenipotentiary Representative Trutnev to a male bee.

[stels_07]

How many billions and years will it take to make a corn plant?

[Penzyak]

Or they could have simply removed the Mauser from the safety catch and given a year or two to produce a prototype...

[sergey4791]

Mauser

Alas, such effective methods are a thing of the past. Now only "bring closer to the feeder <-> drive away from the feeder"

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Penzyak

Or they could have simply removed the Mauser from the safety catch and given a year or two to produce a prototype...

What can you do in a year or two with a Mauser barrel to your temple?
Maybe you need to attach one too?

[Kovacs]

Quote: stels_07

How many billions and years will it take to make a corn plant?

Maybe it would be easier to restore the PO-2?! A simple, reliable plane, it can land even without an engine, like a glider...

[South Ukrainian]

It is clear that even without this aircraft there is a lot to worry about, but nevertheless, this machine is needed and the engine and propeller somehow do not feel like an unsolvable problem.

[Neo-9947]

A country of young bloggers and old managers cannot create An-2. Fact.
And all the engineers are already retired - they plant radishes.
In short, until Putin slams his fist on the table, nothing will move.

[Victor Leningradets]

No matter how much you knock, it will do no good!
There are no personnel or factories.
The situation is better in shipbuilding, but bad in large-tonnage shipbuilding.

[hhurik]

I need to throw the pen on the table, since knocking doesn't help. Decisively. Like that time at the meeting on fires and floods. They stopped right away, right?

Then we'll start living

[your1970]

Quote: hhurik

Just like at the meeting on fires and floods. They stopped right away, right?

The most severe fires in the 20th century were in 1972 in the Moscow region, and the floods were in 1976. They stopped right away, right?

[Uncle lee]

Quote: Neo-9947

Until VVP slams his fist on the table, nothing will move.

He'll hit his fist, the table will be in pieces, nothing will move anyway - there's no one to move it, only efficient managers and masters of kickbacks and embezzlement!

[ugol2]

Quote: Uncle Lee

He'll hit his fist, the table will be in pieces, nothing will move anyway - there's no one to move it, only managers

And here is a reasonable question:
-- And who created such a country? Who has been at the helm for a quarter of a century? An energy superpower, damn it, we'll buy the rest.
That's why "we'll buy the rest" has resulted in 5 million sellers and 50 million intermediaries of everything and anything.

[valentine]

He was deceived, they deceive him every day. Abramovich came from London to deceive again. Even Kulrin rushed from Israel, and Deripaska from America.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

When the salary in the design bureau (because the defective managers think that this cattle is ineffective, and they are paid in vain) is lower than that of the slave-peddlers on crazy stools - what kind of developments are we talking about?
Defective managers don't even have salaries, they have WAGES (after all, they are efficient and draw them up for themselves).

Same with production. Only there are also wildly expensive loans (but this is a problem on the company's side)

Here it really is that "only mass shootings will save the Motherland."

[Oldrover]

Yes, there are young engineers and designers and they could create a modern analogue of the An-2, but effective managers/business executives want these specialists to work for a conditional 500-1000 dollars a month.

[Astra55]

How long can a young engineer survive on $500?
Until the baby is born and the question of living space arises.
And there is an electric scooter, a yellow backpack and thoughts - why the hell did I gnaw on science for 5 years...

[Egg]

Quote: Astra55

How long can a young engineer survive on $500?
Until the baby is born and the question of living space arises.
And there is an electric scooter, a yellow backpack and thoughts - why the hell did I gnaw on science for 5 years...

defective managers don't get into such details, it's not a royal matter....

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There is no point in even trying to copy the An-2, much less creating its modern equivalent.
There is no need to try to swim against the current and be surprised that nothing works. You just need to act within the framework of modern requirements and not deviate to the side at any cost.
Need two engines? Install two. If it's expensive, install piston engines. If you want to fail the project, install two turboprop engines like on the An-28, it will not just be expensive, it will be very expensive.
They demand a modern landing gear arrangement like the An-14 and An-28, do as they ask.
They require a number of seats from 12, do it.
Attempts to replicate the An-2 are obviously doomed. It has an unsuccessful chassis design, one engine, and air-cooled at that.

[valentine]

Judging by the garage developments, everything is fine with the brains. There are big problems with the authorities. Enormous: they are devouring the country. Why do we need such authorities?

[tralflot1832]

Now you will be in a dead end - saboteurs.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

Quote: tralflot1832

Now you will be in a dead end - saboteurs.

When people were executed for sabotage and theft of state property on an especially large scale, the tasks were miraculously completed.
But "we are not like that", that is not why the parliament was shot at with tanks in 1993...
What other order?
(un)Respected (un)people have not yet eaten their fill at the feeding trough.

[your1970]

Most likely, everything is occupied by the military aviation industry and large aircraft; perhaps there is simply no room for small aircraft to be produced.
The An-2 was also sent to Poland for a reason.
And now there are only a few aircraft factories... and that's it.

[expert]

The project, the task, the need to replace the An-2 arose and became pressing over the last three years.
A simple question: what have all these managers been doing all these years?

[your1970]

Quote: Fachmann

The project, the task, the need to replace the An-2 arose and became pressing over the last three years.
A simple question: what have all these managers been doing all these years?

And what were the designers doing - without an engine!!!! - with an airplane for 5 years??
were you playing solitaire???

[faiver]

Well, why put it in a kerchief right away? You're twenty years or more behind the times.
Tanks, Counter-Strike, Warface, Fallout and so on, so on, so on...

[Egg]

Quote: Fachmann

And what have all these managers been doing all these years?

sawed Shura... sawed budgets and drew signs (a new fad has come, to draw signs)

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The managers pretended to fulfill the demands of the public and the customer. Wanted a turboprop engine, checkered taxis instead of driving? Get it! Wanted progress? Get it! Wanted a plane similar to the An-2? Get a similar chassis design! Wanted to move away from a biplane like the An-2? Get it!
Didn't work out? What did you want?

[valentine]

nonsense. If there is a desire, a place and workers can be found. They do NOT want to and will not, and nothing will come of it.

[alexoff]

And who will answer for this? Who decided in the Ministry of Industry and Trade that money should be given for this in 2019? Who owns Technodinamika, which owns UZGA? Not Chemezov's friend, by any chance?

[Hitriy Zhuk]

Quote from alexoff

And who will answer for this?

The hohols will answer for this.
No one else.
But even so.

We do not punish for failure of production-development-construction programs or presidential decrees.

[alexoff]

We do not punish for failure of production-development-construction programs or presidential decrees.

I don't remember any cases where we were fired for the main work done. Exclusively for the loss of high trust

[valentine]

Chemez is a whole other story: he eats with his mouth and his ass and still can't get enough. He even stole garbage money and nothing, Putin swallowed it.

[andranick]

Well, as expected, huh. Another confirmation that the An-2 is the best!

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

If he had been the best, he would not have “rested in peace” even under developed socialism.
A biplane with a single piston engine, and air-cooled and with an unsuccessful landing gear layout. A smaller and improved copy of the Il-14 was needed, with liquid-cooled piston engines. The bet on the best radial military engine from the Shvetsov Design Bureau was a mistake. The war was over when the aircraft was being built, and it was necessary to focus on the liquid-cooled engines from the Klimov Design Bureau, such as the VK-107 and higher.

[valentine]

Then why didn't they bring this issue to a head in the Union? The Brezhnev era began much later.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The focus on progress and slogans in the style of “we’ll catch up and overtake” have failed.
Firstly, it was necessary to continue production of the Il-14 and improve it as necessary.
In small aviation, the bet on expensive-to-produce and -operate turboprop engines failed miserably. They needed checkers, they didn't need to go, they needed "show-offs" and progress at any cost. As an example of this, the complete failure of the An-28 project, no matter how hard they tried, the plane disappeared. It is even possible that the Ukrainian lobby pulled the blanket over itself, and the Ilyushin Design Bureau gave way to the Antonov Design Bureau.
Secondly, the mistaken bet was made on air-cooled engines. They are good for military and extreme conditions like the far north. But modern technologies and materials appeared and liquid-cooled engines won everywhere.

[Novel_]

How so! Is it true? Oh, screw it and all that swearing... What, they won't put anyone in jail, no, not in a new office with a new secretary and position, but in prison for life? No? Ah! He didn't steal 2 minimum wages, he strategically shifted budget trillions to the right Senshils - for that he gets a medal ("Timurka" a few bags of midalek, that's how he earned it)!

[Hitriy Zhuk]

Quote: Roman_

no, not to a new office with a new secretary and position

By the way, yes.
What a gang.
You watch regional news (sometimes it's interesting to "walk" around the country in terms of local news) - and there it is from the category "a scumbag manager robbed a village, showed a trick with the disappearance of money for the road to it, the prosecutor WITHDRAWN THE CASE, and the scumbag moved to the regional center to the position of head of a training center at a state office."

And it will be like this until something like the OBKhSS appears (there is a tension with socialist property now, but state property and budget funds still miraculously remain)

[Alexander K]

And no one is going to show how many thousands of enterprises are working honestly.
All these thieves do not just steal, but under cover. And an additional special service will simply have a good trough. And cover. And you will always whine about the fact that they steal. The more services, the more thieves. Everyone wants to eat

[Shkodnik65]

Your team! You can't help but remember the Soviet Union. After the war, the country was in ruins, there was no money, planes were churned out like nails. What planes, a nuclear shield, rockets, the first satellite and a man in space. And here, to make a replacement for the "maize", after so many years of development, another 5 years and billions are needed! Billions, Karl! There are no words.

[alexoff]

And here, in order to make a replacement for the "maize plant", after so many years of development, another 5 years and billions are needed!

do it? Are they going to do it? Why, if you can not do it, put more money in your pocket and nothing will happen for it?

[Shkodnik65]

Well, I don't know, there is a cabinet of ministers with the Prime Minister at the helm, the FSB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the prosecutor's office, after all. You can't just openly stall the task set, just a minute, by VVP personally. What kind of fearless people work in our government.

[alexoff]

It is impossible to openly delay a task set, just for a moment, by VVP personally.

as we see - it is possible! Chubais can do it, but Chemezov can’t?

[valentine]

We need people's control. Come - check - shoot. Everything will work out instantly. The main thing is that the control is with a rifle.

[alexoff]

Yes, even in May they give interviews, when asked how to do it, they directly answer that there is no way without logging and executions

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Where were they when the design brief was drawn up? Wasn't it on their initiative that the failed concept was developed? Here we still need to figure out who to start with.

[alexoff]

And the task was set by the aircraft manufacturers, and not by the Ministry of Industry and Trade? Which really liked the Baikal project, which even with an American engine flew two and a half times for half an hour at a low altitude due to poor airframe design?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I have no idea. And what's typical is that I don't even want to know. But where were all the smart guys when the project was just starting and its wretchedness and unprofitability were already visible?
I repeat, the project is a failure both technically and economically; everything is bad, from the chassis layout to the expensive, unprofitable engine.

[alexoff]

But where were all the smart guys when the project was just starting and its wretchedness and unprofitability were already visible?

They wrote on the Internet that Chemezov was up to no good again, they were making up shit. Those who kept quiet were the ones who didn't want to get fired. Like, the boss was stealing their money, you can't criticize him.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Somehow I doubt it. Most likely, those who kept silent were involved or not competent enough. And where is your MAI and where is Chemezov? Devastation in the minds of all those involved and not involved.

[alexoff]

Most likely, those who remained silent were involved

What are they involved in? UZGA is an aircraft repair company that was bombarded with orders for seemingly incomprehensible reasons, no design institutes were asked there. In which everyone has long since fled, since the money goes to effective managers from Rostec. UZGA belongs to Technodinamika, which belongs, completely by chance, to the head of Novikombank, through which Rostec spends all its money - read Chemezov's personal pocket. All the blame lies with him, and not with those who were spun by big bosses on an American propeller. Our entire country of smart guys knew about it, only Putin was the last to figure out that his Western partners were regularly deceiving him

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Well, yes. The inventor of the automatic grenade launcher Taubin was shot, and they didn't even figure out why he was shot. It only became clear 20-30 years later, when the US began mass-producing grenades with remote-activated fuses. It turned out to be a matter of fuses!

[your1970]

Bekauri, the creator of UAVs, BEKs and other teletanks, didn't make it. But everything could have been very widespread in 1960, when electronics more or less became...
But they "slapped" me with government money - indescribable joy

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

So, with Kurchevsky, it was as if they "rushed". His guns (BZO) did not have enough cumulative ammunition and high-explosive over-caliber ammunition with a marching powder accelerator.

[your1970]

Quote: valentber

We need people's control. Come - check - shoot. Everything will work out instantly. The main thing is that the control is with a rifle.

In the autumn of 1941, after the introduction of a state of siege with the possibility of execution on the spot, including for panic and agitation, 1080 people were shot.
Knowing about GUARANTEED death - people scolded the authorities in public places.
Well, let me remind you that people's control in the USSR periodically fell under bad influence
And when the question arises at the level of "We can slap!" - there is always a high probability of a division between corrupt officials and the owner of the rifles. As it was with the Cheka before its liquidation.
Too much uncontrolled power always spoils people.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

Quote: Shkodnik65

And here, to make a replacement for the "maize", after so many years of development, another 5 years and billions are needed! Billions, Karl! There are no words.

If you pay attention to the trend, our essence has long been not in achievements, but in PRESENTATIONS, "ROADMAPS" (ugh, barbarism), business forums, and other "star-studded photo-teams".
The goal is not to achieve something.
The goal is to tell how it will be (or to lie about how it is (the Potemkin case lives on)). (And then either the term of office expires, or the allocated money runs out and you can quit).
All because there is no zeal, no control, no shame, no conscience.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

They say that if you hang Chubais by the balls (and what, is anyone against it?), the one who is in charge of financing, as well as the customer and the developer, and tell them that everyone except the first one will be released when the plane flies, and flies well (and with them on board) - the whole process will take months.
Well, Chubais can be hung behind an airplane, firstly, it’s beautiful...

Seriously, in the old days all this (design, launch of production) was done very quickly.
But then even the embezzler could get shot.
The correlation is clear.

(if you had dragged it out like you do now, pre-war planes would still be "under development", and that would have been if the fascists hadn't attacked (because with this approach, if they had attacked, there would have been no one left to discuss all of this)).

[your1970]

Quote: Hitriy Zhuk

Seriously, in the old days all this (design, launch of production) was done very quickly.
But then even the embezzler could get shot.
The correlation is clear.

At that time, the situation for the state was simpler - crashed - fired a salvo - the propeller goes to the grave - pensions for the children - that's it...
And now the relatives of the deceased orchestra have reached the ECHR - "7 million for the deceased is not enough - we need 23 million, the flight was international" (c).
And how many lawsuits there are now everywhere for the dead - not against the state but between relatives - it's just awful...

[valentine]

What selfishness! Scoundrels.

[your1970]

Quote: valentber

What selfishness! Scoundrels.

Statement of fact.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Inflation, rising housing prices, an invasion of compatriots from Central Asia! And you talk about self-interest! Words should be chosen carefully. People died for their Motherland, and not just like that.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

People died for their Motherland, and not just like that.

If we are talking about that orchestra that was apparently shot down by Israel, then firstly they died due to the fault of another country, not the Russian Federation.
Secondly, there was no risk involved (such Israeli scum), that is, it’s not like they were flying to play under fire at risk (like the way artists once took risks when they went to the front).
Thirdly, there are claims against Israel.

That is, “for the Motherland” is conditional there.
Yes, it seems like it was on the country’s orders, but not to the front, and at all.
It is clear that it is logical for the Russian state to make some payments, because after all, they are its service people.
Well, there is a "pension for the loss of a breadwinner". Some payments + assistance with funerals.
Something like this.

But DEMANDING something from the Russian Federation in this case is a struggle on the bones and Ukrainianism.
Another thing is that it is already logical to demand from Israel.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

What happened to Prigozhin's plane doesn't interest me at all. Please, continue to beat around the bush without me.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

Prigogine

I thought this was about that murky incident with the Tu-154 where an orchestra or ensemble was flying (16).
But I confused it with the IL-20 when the Israeli plane "hid from an air defense missile" by flying next to our plane (and the missile switched to it).

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I already wrote that it makes no difference to me. Find another interlocutor on this topic. The way Prigozhin ended is not my problem.

[Hitriy Zhuk]

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

[Eugene 62]

An interesting example. The Antonov Design Bureau (then still located in Novosibirsk) immediately after the war in a little over a year made the AN-2 airplane. True, at that time they did not yet know who "effective managers" were. Simple Soviet design engineers worked on the project.
Who needs this Baikal worth half a billion rubles anyway? After all, there was an AN-3 version at one time. The same AN-2 with a TVD-20 engine. Why not launch it into production again? It will cost several times less and there will be no need to reinvent the wheel.

[UA3QHP]

It will cost several times less and there will be no need to reinvent the wheel.

The key word is "Multiple times cheaper" - "This is not our method..." (c)

[Dmitry H.]

Well, yes. "From penny projects - 1 and nothing to steal"

[Konnick]

Immediately after the war, in just over a year, they produced the AN-2 aircraft.

I don't know why they would give up the piston engine? The Americans also wanted to convert their Pipers to a jet engine, but they came to their senses in time and stayed with the piston engine.

The Piper PA-18 Super Cub is an American light-engine, two-seat aircraft produced by the American aircraft manufacturer Piper Aircraft Corporation since 1949.
More details at: https://avia.pro/blog/piper-pa-18-super-cub-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki-foto?ysclid=manr4sya80499555527

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Is a turboprop engine really cheaper? Or is that just a catchphrase?

[valentine]

Your thoughts won't reach Alikhanov. They'll bury him right at the post office. And if they do, Alikhanov is a nobody and has no clue about aviation. It's more likely that a rich region like Moscow will be able to do everything and get it up and running than for the Ministry of Industry and Trade to start something.

[Cats]

For the time and money that were spent on the LMS 901 "Baikal" program and all the fuss around the AN 2, it would have been possible to create a light-engine aircraft from scratch using domestic components a long time ago!

[faiver]

create a light aircraft

- I'm even thinking about a line of airplanes...

[A. Evert]

It is not entirely clear about the engine for the AN-2: will it be installed on old aircraft or will they start producing the AN-2 with a new engine?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The release of a new aircraft requires complex certification according to modern requirements. The AN-2 does not pass the reliability test due to its single engine for its number of seats. So they are trying to bypass modern requirements by re-engining. They say that the aircraft is not being re-released, but only modernized.

[A. Evert]

Compared to the unreleased Baikal, the AN-2 has only 3 more seats (12 versus 9). But it can be produced in a non-passenger version.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And who needs it in a non-passenger version? Let's continue beating the air. And with a small number of passenger seats and a high price, it is also not needed.

[A. Evert]

Then it turns out that the most acceptable option for such a number of passengers and with the corresponding safety requirements is the L-410.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Simply adorable , two turbofan engines for 15-19 passengers . Economy, you'll get tired of paying . An-28, only imported, at double the price.
Twin-engine turboprop aircraft are becoming cost-effective in sizes from the An-24 and with a passenger capacity of about 50.

[A. Evert]

Why was it designed and created then? And judging by the available information, it is being produced in Russia. But the An-24 is not being produced.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Please pay attention to the number of aircraft produced. These are rather insignificant figures, which indicate the low profitability of the project or even its complete failure.

[A. Evert]

Then what do you say about the Ladoga with its 44 passengers?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This is already closer to the threshold of profitability, close to An-24. Approximately the same class. It may well take place. At least the unprofitability is not included at the earliest stage, in the scheme itself and does not resemble a deliberate failure.

[A. Evert]

But they are only planning to launch it into production. And one more thing. Please explain to me why they designed and created the L-410 and An-28 if they were initially unprofitable? And why, in your opinion, did they even get involved with the production of the L-410 in the Urals, given the "unprofitability"?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Why they got involved with the L-410 in the Urals, I don't know. Perhaps they overestimated their capabilities and the capacity of the Russian market. They tried to fill an empty niche. The An-28 is more likely the torment of creativity and a difficult path of mistakes.
There is also a conspiracy theory about the An-28. Ukraine, as in everything, tried to pull the blanket over itself. It really wanted to oust the Il-14 and the Ilyushin Design Bureau, just as the Kharkov plant once tried to become a monopolist in tank production.

[A. Evert]

And about Kharkov tanks. The T-64 was interesting, but was let down by an unfinished engine and an insufficiently reliable (in comparison with the T-72) chassis. But the T-84, which became the development of the T-80 UD and its further development OPLOT, are quite interesting examples.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The point is not how good the T-64 tank and its engine were. Both the tank and the engine were probably not bad. The point is that Ukraine under the USSR tried to seize everything it could and gain a monopoly wherever it could. And the An-28 was unprofitable, but it allowed the Il-14 to be destroyed and a monopoly to be gained.

[A. Evert]

And the same Antonov created the An-14, as they say, to replace the An-2, it is twin-engine and even smaller than the L-410. Again, obviously unprofitable?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Why is that? It's a successful model. But the engines turned out to be weak, small capacity and load capacity. If it had a couple of engines like the M-105 from the Klimov Design Bureau, it would be priceless.
But in his small class he was very good.
It's more like business class.

[A. Evert]

When the AN-14 was being manufactured, the concept of "business class" did not exist in the USSR at all. And continuing the topic of profitable aircraft. In Russia, VASO tried to produce the AN-148, and AVIAKOR - the AN-140. Their passenger capacity is close to the profitability threshold, but neither of them went into normal production.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

They just went into normal production. Problems started with Ukraine and their engines.

[A. Evert]

If there really are problems with the AN-148 and its Ukrainian-made engines, they are not produced in Russia, then the AN-140 uses TV3-117, which are produced at the Petersburg Motors CPC and designed by the Klimov Design Bureau. So maybe not all is lost.

[Konnick]

While a new engine for the An-2 will cost 1,8 billion.

How could officials calculate how much the development would cost? What kind of talent do you need to have...

The plane needs to have its engine and propeller replaced with domestic ones without losing its performance.

And they set clear conditions...it's just amazing

[g_ae]

Ha-ha! Moishe Barukhovich is in Israel, but he has generously seeded Russia with his followers. And who will be responsible for the "appropriated" money? Oh yeah! Vladimir Vladimirovich doesn't give up "his own"?

[valentine]

worse, he gathered his own in the Kremlin again, like in 2022 in Istanbul. Everyone rushed, even Kudrin. If we're going to divide, then divide, among everyone.

[GRIGORIY76]

The last week has been full of one cool news item after another: the contract with the “best defense minister” Shoigu has been extended, Abramovich is once again ready to “help the Motherland” in negotiations with the West, and the plane that is vital for communication between remote areas of our country will not be available.
Running over rakes is our national pastime.

[valentine]

not ours, but you-know-who's. The older you get, the funnier the grandfather.

[GRIGORIY76]

Haha, wow, Medinsky is being sent to Istanbul again. Although what's surprising about that if the majority of Russians, voting and supporting Vladimir Vladimirovich, believe that he will correct the horror and consequences of previous presidencies in our country. It's not even funny anymore.

[Monster_Fat]

Oh, what "unexpected" news... And if we also remember the program to deliver 1000 civilian aircraft by 2030, then it becomes even "sour"...

[alexoff]

PF! 2030! President Medvedev was planning to grab 10% of the world aviation market by 2020 with Superjets and the newest MC21

[Idle_piston]

When a brothel does not make a profit, they change the contingent. But this is when the owner is worried about his business.

[g_ae]

The owner is already old, he is not interested in this business. Only the pension reform is being done quickly. At the request of the workers, naturally. In particular, at the personal request of Vladimir Rudolfovich Solovyov's mother.

[saved]

Biplanes have been flying for a hundred years without any problems, no, we need to develop a super-duper plane that would be beautiful and consume 20% less fuel. Once they finish this Baikal, there will be such savings. Ugh. If we take on something, it should be truly new.

[goscha]

Whatever they do, things don't go well... A brief summary of our managers' rule over the last 25 years. And this is not the bottom yet...

[tralflot1832]

Quote: Hitriy Zhuk

Quote: tralflot1832

Now you will be in a dead end - saboteurs.

When people were executed for sabotage and theft of state property on an especially large scale, the tasks were miraculously completed.
But "we are not like that", that is not why the parliament was shot at with tanks in 1993...
What other order?
(un)Respected (un)people have not yet eaten their fill at the feeding trough.

I'll wait until Tverdnee with slides comes to report to Putin. And then I'll draw conclusions.

[Blue fox]

Chewed mole, brother pike, that's all.

[dnestr74]

Who will they put in jail? Five years in a cornfield? Holy shit.

[valentine]

Well, against the background of impossible nails, it won't last long.

[26_Sergey_26]

For some reason I’m not surprised.
Why is Trutnev talking about this news?
What does he have to do with it?
The chief designer, the director of the plant, should be responsible for the construction of any aircraft, what does the post of chairman have to do with it? This is not even a governor.
If you remove effective managers from the chain of construction of any aircraft, then the aircraft will be competently designed, will be cheap, will have clear technical characteristics and finally it will fly in reality, and not on paper.
But does the capitalist government need this?
There will be no kickbacks in this scheme, which means that in our harsh reality it is of no interest to anyone.
Every self-respecting country has a whole fleet of single-engine aircraft for commercial and domestic purposes.
We have nothing of our own except for the An-2, developed in 47. And with this approach, there won't be.

[Broad flag]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

I don’t understand at all why Trutnev is getting into areas of activity that aren’t his.

Truten does not oppress, he simply summarized that with such an approach the aircraft should not be expected. To save face, he admitted that the result of all efforts is crap. Which is basically fair and correct. It is not about UZGA or Yak or AN/IL. It is about shitty management and the lack of choice of ready-made solutions in the form of industrial conveyor samples of components. Everything is given with screams, squeals and pomp in single copies. Like shoeing a flea. Nothing has changed. The engine option is one and that is not finalized, the propeller seems to be a simple unit, but no, there are seams here too! It is necessary to check and test. Certify this rural fly swatter for 6 years? The apotheosis!
When the designer, who had spent a long time and ineffectively finishing the engine for the maize-grower (LA-5), and it was 1941, after a hint at the end of his life and not just his career, everything was very quickly and successfully won and finished.
It's not the engineers or designers that are crap, it's the managers that are the problem - there are so many of them and for nothing. Put Chermeztv and Manturov up against the wall, they won't invent or create anything. And their salaries could easily feed the staff of a small design bureau.

[DO]

Now we will have to get out of the situation by re-motorizing the An-2 aircraft

If the issue of re-motorization of the existing An-2 is resolved, the next logical step, which guarantees a minimum of errors even among today's victims of the Unified State Exam, the half-baked designers of the LMS901, is to copy the proven An-2 and produce it.
And state orders for the development of new, beautiful and fashionable airplanes should be postponed until better times.

[Novel_]

It won't be possible to copy, they'll turn on the laser 3D scanner, get the 3D model into the computer, but what about the material and its production with processing??? The era of the Unified State Exam doesn't know what GOST, metrology, metal science, etc. are.
Strength of materials, I launched a program on a computer and got a picture - and how, what and the meaning of the picture is Malevich's square (he was a great predictor - he predicted the end of the life of the era of the Unified State Exam - the lights went out, the beacon of knowledge went out and the heavenly voice - a monitor with speakers).

[DO]

Roman_, why do you attribute your delusions to me?
https://dzen.ru/a/XD7Qr78jiQCpqp4O?ysclid=manwxpfby6251616320 :
In 1945, Stalin gave the Tupolev design bureau the task of copying the American B-29 bomber. Four of these aircraft ended up on Soviet territory, making emergency landings at Soviet airfields.
In 1947, three exact copies of the B-29, called Tu-4, took part in the air parade in Tushino. In total, about 1200 Tu-4 aircraft were produced.
This may be news to you, but back then there were no scanners or computers.
And yes, your hints about the era of the Unified State Exam fly right past me, because I received my engineering education back in the USSR.

[Novel_]

What is the percentage of managers with specialized education from the USSR in the Russian Federation today? Then there was responsibility and desire of people - now there is irresponsibility and illiteracy of managers with a desire to grab money. Therefore, even using modern technologies, top managers will ruin everything. Sorry, but Stalin raised the country's GDP - he took it with a plough, and left it with a nuclear bomb, etc. And now from that time only a coincidence of abbreviations - GDP (gross product and person, under Stalin GDP grew, and now GDP is only aging).
Why look at what was? Look at what is. And we have promises of a bright future without a product release.
The only industry that is alive in the Russian Federation is air defense, even in the nuclear industry the Russian Federation already buys a lot from China and has closed its own factories.
And about TU-4 you forgot to write how many new factories were opened for the production of materials, components, machine tools, chemical production, etc., etc. Several thousand new directions were launched, and now all of this has been destroyed! And no matter how much you specify, without restoring the entire production chain, it will turn out to be a theft of the budget.
Have you ever wondered why in Russia all products are metric, but wires are in inches... That's where your B-29 will pop up...

[faiver]

It was not for nothing that Ivan Vasilyevich the Terrible introduced the oprichnina, it was not for nothing - until you shoot a dozen daredevils and hang another dozen, well, they don’t understand anything...

[Oldman]

Pathetic disgraces... Stalin is needed.

[Dutchman Michel]

She has reached a dead end today.

And someone else was chatting about the PAK DA,
the Russian bomber project, when we can’t create a replacement for the An-2

[valentine]

The cemeteries need to be filled with thieves, otherwise there won't be enough land.

[tralflot1832]

The problem is not serious at all. Opek+ is acting as a united front against "Big Oil" - a war against investments in geological exploration. Siluanov said - the losses in oil and gas revenues are not critical. But it is unclear with the $, it keeps falling and falling. It's funny who bought it at 110 a couple of months ago. You know - that Kazakhstan is playing hooligan with production, the Saudis decided to punish them a little.

[cmax]

Just a demonstrative story in the state, which is in plain sight and cannot be hidden or glossed over. Everyone is busy, the money has been spent, but there is no product. There is no case for nothing! And there will be none. Now, to spend new funds on the screw and everything is ok! IMHO.

[oleg_627]

It's good that the military factories weren't cut up under Yeltsin-Chubais, otherwise we would have gone to war in tachankas. What nonsense, we came up with the Moskvich (a Moskvich sticker on a Chinese car). The managers came up with a good ceremonial weapon, but we fight with Soviet weapons. The USSR was the first space power, now there are one and a half satellites hanging out in the sky, and to come up with a modernized cornfield is a waste of time. There is no money, it's like the moles ate the billion-dollar dam

[g_ae]

What are you talking about? You can't even imagine how many factories were cut by Vladimir Vladimirovich's "optimizers". There was a fucking list here on VO a few years ago. But this same process hasn't stopped.

[16112014nk]

"Qualified consumers" and "effective managers" continue to spend the budget.

[pexotinec]

Obviously, the Investigative Committee needs to be involved. That kind of money is in the trash. There were statements that the plane would fly.

[Evgesha]

That's it, there will be no cinema!!
The budget was successfully divided!
No result!
Nobody is to blame! There is no one to punish!!!
It just happened that way. Please be understanding!!!!!

[Pavel_Sveshnikov]

Businessmen have become completely brazen. They saw up the budget by the billions and the result is zero. Under Stalin, they would have shot for this. Not even to a camp. Today, it is enough to share what you have stolen. Progress, damn it.

[Ivan№One]

names and surnames because of whom "the situation reached a dead end"?

[Yuri L]

Why is everyone suffering here? After all, the plane has already been made... let it be at UZGA. "Mosk...", sorry "Baikal". Why with hieroglyphs? So foreign customers are already tearing it off with hands and feet under the brand Y5BG. We are ahead! As always. The main thing is that the Russian nameplate does not fall off...

[Zaurbek]

As comrade Stalin said: No harm in trying, right comrade Beria?!

[FoBoss_VM]

It's that simple: the situation has reached a dead end . What a surrealism, honest to God... Medinsky is flying to Istanbul again to disgrace Russia, and the situation with An2 has reached a dead end. That's all you need to know for today. Shoigu's agent is in action, he has already affected both the Foreign Ministry and the Ministry of Industry and Trade. It's like a cancerous tumor.

[Valnik]

Sad and sad.
This is a machine for small aircraft.
Is it really impossible to put even such an airplane on the wing? That there are no engineers left or there is no suitable equipment and materials?

[sidorov]

If an engineer in Russia is traditionally a "beggar" and a thief is an "authority", then it is surprising that such dinosaur engineers have not yet become completely extinct.

Students of those universities do not study to become engineers later. It's ridiculous. But such are the traditions of the people and the contradictions of Russian life.

[Idle_piston]

The state that exists in Russia is not capable of winning wars, developing the economy, including establishing serial production of "anything with more than three wires"; this state was created to extract profit for its founders.

[Yuri Turkul]

And the money from the budget disappeared again. After all, money should be made not of paper and metal, but of granite, so that it would be harder to steal.

[Valyusha]

Everything in this story is strange. This Baikal looks more like an ordinary crocodile. Such a miracle cannot be an airplane. Compare it with the AN-2. It is a real airplane. It was not for nothing that it flew for decades without problems, and in such conditions. We can only state that we have almost no qualified aviation design bureaus. What we had, we ruined. Some companies are designing God knows what, some factories for the production of seeders and winnowing machines are molding God knows what based on these designs. Instead of creating an aviation industry, they are busy replacing who knows what and for what purpose. We have lived to see it! They have not developed or produced even a proper analogue of the AN-2! Shame!

[ergh081]

The finale-apophtheosis of the liberal economy and all the ministries of industry and trade, ministries of economy headed by Putin. Curtain? No, the curtain is still ahead - this is when Matviyenko will wait for domestic nails and screws

[cast iron]

It was a failed idea from the very beginning. They decided to replace the cheap AN-2 with a composite aviation "Ferrari" with a foreign engine. It was probably not much cheaper than the Superjet. And who needs such an expensive corn-plant? That's right. Nobody. Once again I was convinced that under the current ruling class in Russia nothing will happen. There won't even be any people anymore - we are dying out at the rate of a million a year.

[Ivan Kizim]

So you want to say that the Ministry of Industry and Trade is also occupied by liberals and rats, right?

And why should the aviation industry do anything about small aviation if the cart with gingerbread won't run away anywhere anyway - no one will ask anyone anything and no one is afraid of magic kicks

It is clear to everyone that the war for the great redistribution of everything in the world will never end and therefore a great country cannot and does not need many pilots - let the infantry ride around the Ukrainian fields on mopeds than young maize growers in turbo piston attack aircraft will chase the bogeymen around the forested areas near Kiev... and so on and so forth in the text

[Dmitry Eon]

It sounds a bit strange, we like to change the requirements bar, and then, citing "project difficulties", they will buy foreign cars or rush to modernize junk. I doubt that the design, testing and bringing a new airplane to GOST standards can cost less than 10 billion rubles, and it is needed no matter what anyone says...

[MCmaximus]

Where the Ministry of Industry and Trade is, it’s not about results.

[the same doctor]

Let's improve the ASH-82 and raise the compression ratio from 6,5 to 10 for the hundredth gasoline. No billions are needed and it can be done today. Strengthen the connecting rods there, increase the width of the journals. Pennies.

[cast iron]

Let's improve the ASH-82

There is no factory. There is no design bureau. Designers, technologists, engineers have either retired or died long ago. Who and where will do this? Say thank you to the Ruling Class and United Russia for all this. And don't forget to tell yourself if you vote for this in the elections or keep silent on the couch.

[al3x]

Well, a thick bolt was put on the next order of the guarantor. It seems he personally gave the order to sort this issue out. Everything is as usual. The sawing is counted.

[agond]

Quote: also a doctor

Let's improve the ASH-82 and raise the compression ratio from 6,5 to 10 for the hundredth gasoline. No billions are needed and it can be done today. Strengthen the connecting rods there, increase the width of the journals. Pennies.

Yes, we should probably return to the production of the ASH-82, star-type engines have their undeniable advantages, I would even consider the option of making side valves instead of upper ones, this will of course somewhat worsen the engine's characteristics, but at the same time its diameter and frontal resistance will be significantly reduced.

[UA3QHP]

Yes, we should probably return to the production of the ASH-82

Do we still have factories that produce piston aircraft engines?

[agond]

The AS-82 is not such a complex engine that it cannot be assembled at a regular automobile engine plant, and then only a very limited number of them are required.

[UA3QHP]

The AS-82 is not such a complex engine that it cannot be assembled at a regular automobile engine plant.

Conventional car engine factories have very specific metal-cutting equipment for serial production, developed only for the production of specific engine models. Nothing else can be made on it. And then there is another problem. In the 20s, it was possible to slap together an engine in a couple of years and immediately install it on an airplane, and then we would refine it later.
Now it will be necessary first - certification of production for the right to develop and produce AVIATION equipment. Then the actual development of the engine with certification of all components down to the last nut. Then the actual certification of the engine with very long and expensive tests. And only then serial production.
On the one hand, there is concern for safety, on the other hand, the speed of developing new products is falling to zero, and the price is tending to infinity. It's a kind of sabotage.

[Reklastik]

Awesome news... Under Vladimir Vladimirovich will there be at least some kind of production and responsibility for embezzlement of funds? 26 years have passed...

[cytadell]

If you look closely at the photo of the LMS-901, you will immediately notice its small propeller in relation to the size of the fuselage. It is obvious that its size is too small to create the necessary thrust. Plus there should be a power reserve, in aviation this coefficient, if my memory serves me right, is 1.75. What is the elongated nose of the aircraft? An attempt to correct the initially incorrect balance of the aircraft, taking into account the thrust vector and aerodynamics? How is that possible? It all looks like nonsense. Where are the sketches on paper, preliminary calculations, vector model of forces? Where is the exact scale model, at least made of plastic on a 3D printer, checking the center of mass by hanging the model, in fact?
I read from another article that first-class pilot, winner of the Aeroflot Excellence Award, Andrei Litvinov, noticed design flaws that were made at the design stage. Who supervised the project? Why weren't experts supervising the development from the start? Were there any? Didn't they want to share their experience? Or was it just sabotage?
I remember footage from a documentary about space developments under Korolev, which captured the conversation between the Chief Soviet designer and aviation luminaries, their collaboration and discussion of some model of either a rocket or an airplane. Discussion is always a search for a solution and minimization of errors.
This situation needs to be analyzed thoroughly, who did what, who was responsible for what, who carried out the calculations, etc. Find out all the shortcomings, so to speak, who breathes what. Make organizational conclusions and decide what to do with this "seagull-pike"

[agond]

Need a front landing gear strut and a larger diameter propeller.

[Alexander]

Is it really that hard to create an airplane similar to the AN-2? Or haven't they stolen enough yet?

[cast iron]

First, ask yourself, what exactly can you create yourself that is complex and necessary? When there is no design bureau, people, state will, education and conditions for development, then it is a very big problem to create anything.

[Evgeny_Sviridenko]

All these are indicators of the system's state. It has many unnecessary, parasitic elements and imitators, plus a lack of responsibility for the funds entrusted to it.

[kriten]

What a dead end. The money has been spent, some things have been rolled out, and the main thing has been put into the right pockets. Putin's style of management will write everything off: because theft breeds irresponsibility and impunity. In this regard, he was and remains a liberal Chubaytsevite.

[agond]

Quote: cast iron

First, ask yourself, what exactly can you create yourself that is complex and necessary? When there is no design bureau, people, state will, education and conditions for development, then it is a very big problem to create anything.

There are people who design and assemble single-seat aircraft to order on their own (in 2-3 months); of course, they take a ready-made engine, and then if the designers are given conditions to replace the An-2 like under Stalin, they will quickly cope.