So, they "took Lunya into account". What next?

428 310 265
So, they "took Lunya into account". What next?

Aurora Flight Sciences has provided new details about the design of the demonstrator it is working on for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) X-plane Liberty Lifter program.

The primary purpose of the Liberty Lifter is to demonstrate a new ground effect vehicle design that utilizes the wing-in-ground (WIG) principle. A future aircraft based on the demonstrator could provide the U.S. military with a new way to inexpensively transport large amounts of cargo and personnel over long distances without the need for traditional runways.



Richard Kucherawy, director of business development for manufacturing at Aurora, outlined the Liberty Lifter at the Modern Day Marine show in Washington, D.C. In 2023, Aurora Flight Sciences and General Atomics were awarded contracts to conduct initial work on Liberty Lifter. Last year, DARPA selected Aurora Flight Sciences, a subsidiary of Boeing, to continue developing the flying demonstrator independently.


The latest concept art for the Aurora Liberty Lifter shows a flying boat with a V-shaped fuselage and a large straight wing with wingtip floats, powered by eight wing-mounted turboprop engines. The craft also has two vertical tails connected at the top by a horizontal stabilizer. Cargo, including light armored amphibious vehicles, is unloaded through a large rear ramp.

General Atomics proposed a more radical twin-fuselage design.


“So we’re developing a demonstrator that’s about 80 percent of the target aircraft. That scale is representative enough that you can really learn from it without having to build the target aircraft at full size. Now we’re talking about a flying machine that’s closer to the payload capacity of a C-130, being able to carry 25 tons of payload.”

DARPA previously stated that the ultimate goal of the Liberty Lifter project is to develop a design with a payload capacity comparable to the C-17A Globemaster III cargo plane. The C-17 has a stated maximum payload weight of about 82 tons, although the aircraft typically fly with cargo and personnel on board weighing about 60 tons or less.


C-130 in front, C-17 behind

Requirements for the Liberty Lifter, which DARPA has published in the past, also include the ability to take off and land on open water in up to 4-point sea states and “continuous operation on the water” in up to 5-point sea states. It must be said that these are more than decent indicators, since 4 points are winds of up to 16 knots (30 km/h) and waves of up to 5 feet (1,5 meters), and 5 points are winds of up to 40 km/h and waves of up to 2,5 meters.

“We’re building a demonstrator with an unpressurized cabin because the aircraft is primarily designed to fly in a close-to-ground environment, and for an aircraft this size, that means it’s going to be pretty close to the water. You’re going to be within a few hundred feet of the water. And in order to do that, if there’s any level of rough seas, you have to have the right technology that allows the aircraft to stay in ground effect even if you have potentially rough seas. So that’s one of the technical challenges of the program.”


The idea of ​​a flying platform using the wing-in-ground (WIG) principle is not new, but historically such designs have not enjoyed much success, especially in military applications.

The Soviet Union remains the most famous operator of military WIG designs, known internationally as ekranoplans—a term now widely used to refer to all WIG designs—but even there their use was limited.


The highest achievement of the construction of these devices was the only ekranoplan of the Project 903 class "Lun", a design armed with winged rockets, which today plays the role of a museum exhibit in the Caspian Sea.


In principle, ekranoplans are highly efficient surface vessels that can travel at high speeds because they do not experience the drag of conventional vessels and also receive lift from the wing. At the same time, high-speed flight on the surface of the sea is associated with difficulties, including the risk of collision with various objects on the surface or even just high wave crests.

To help get around these issues, DARPA's Liberty Lifter program called for some kind of hybrid design that would still be capable of operating as a traditional flying boat at "altitudes up to 4 meters above sea level with reduced range," if necessary.

"I think at this early stage of designing an aircraft, when you have a preliminary design, you've basically already more or less decided on the external shape of the aircraft, you understand the configuration, but after that you still have a lot of design work to do. So we're looking forward to moving into the detailed design stage and starting to build the aircraft."
- Kucheravi.

DARPA is expected to decide whether to move forward with the next phase of Liberty Lifter development this summer. Where Aurora might begin building the demonstrator is still an open question, Kucheravi said.

“You know, one of the goals of the program is to understand as much as possible the manufacturing processes of seagoing vessels, rather than approaching it purely from an aerospace perspective,” he explained. “So the aircraft will be created using a combination of shipbuilding and aircraft manufacturing processes.”

This means that Aurora will be looking for a location with skilled marine experts, including “partner marine shipyards that will help us build and assemble the aircraft near the water and then launch it.” The craft will not have landing gear. The demonstrator will not be a landplane. So soon after it is built, at some point in the construction process, it will be launched and will spend most of its life on the water.

Gibbs & Cox, a naval engineering and marine construction company, is a subsidiary of Leidos and has been involved in the Aurora Liberty Lifter project from the beginning. The maritime focus of Aurora fits with the broader goals DARPA is trying to demonstrate with Liberty Lifter.


"The Liberty Lifter program is currently designing, building, testing and fielding an affordable, innovative floatplane that has the potential to change the approach to rapid logistics for the Department of Defense and commercial organizations,"
— this is what the DARPA web page dedicated to the program says.

“The innovative manufacturing methods and materials used in Liberty Lifter enable us to leverage existing infrastructure to quickly and affordably produce the capabilities our service members need, and help improve the efficiency of our defense industry to meet near-term needs. Liberty Lifter can also support maritime search and rescue and disaster response at the scale of a ship, at the speed of an airlift.”

According to DARPA, the Liberty Lifter could not only be an alternative to traditional cargo aircraft, but also a new tool for “efficiently transporting large loads at speeds significantly greater than existing offshore lifting platforms.”


Maritime logistics capabilities that are faster than existing cargo ships and do not rely on runways like many traditional cargo aircraft could be particularly valuable in a future conflict in the Pacific. Particularly in a large-scale war with China, where U.S. forces in the region would be concentrated in remote locations without much infrastructure. Existing traditional air and sea transport assets would generally be used heavily to support such dispersed operations, but these assets are traditionally vulnerable, meaning there are many options for disrupting supply chains based on ships and aircraft today.

Additionally, the Liberty Lifter will be able to avoid many naval threats, such as submarines and anti-ship missiles. Flying at very low altitudes usually increases overall survivability by helping to hide the aircraft from radar.

Considering all this, aviation Capabilities that do not rely on runways, or at least those that are less dependent on traditional runways, are of growing interest to the U.S. military. U.S. Special Operations Command was also working on a floating version of the MC-130J Commando II tanker/transport aircraft, but shelved the project last year, citing budget concerns. The highly capable Japanese ShinMaywa US-2 floatplane has also been considered as another potential option for this type of capability.


MC-130J Amphibious Capability (MAC) Seaplane Concept Visualization

For its part, last year the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) announced the start of serial production of the AG600, a large seaplane that had been in development since the late 2000s.


The AG600 is particularly well suited to supporting remote island outposts like those China maintains in the disputed South China Sea.

It is unclear whether DARPA will decide to move forward with the Liberty Lifter or when the planned Aurora demonstrator might first fly. The program is currently looking at starting flight tests in 2028–2029, a delay from the original 2027–2028 schedule. DARPA’s X-plane programs don’t always come to fruition, as Aurora experienced first-hand when work on its hybrid-electric drone XV-24 Lightning Strike vertical takeoff and landing aircraft.


This year, this summer, DARPA will have to make a decision about whether to move forward, conduct a preliminary design review, and begin the detailed design and manufacturing phase of the demonstrator. DARPA has the tools to make that decision.

At the moment, the Aurora project, which could become the basis for a new ekranoplan for the US military, is already taking on clear outlines.

Hooray? Rule America over the waves?


Honestly? Let me doubt it. Even taking into account everything that the US has today in terms of technology and brains, finances and so on, it is doubtful.

A semi-hydroplane, semi-ekranoplan, capable of flying from bases to islands in the Pacific Ocean and delivering canned meat and Coca-Cola... Well, so-so. I don't know why the Americans called this craft an ekranoplan, it just doesn't look like one.

The Soviet Union, on the genius of Rostislav Alekseyev and Robert Bartini, built more than one ekranoplan. If it were only about the "Lun", but before it they built the KM, SM-1, and "Orlyonok". Today shows that the idea of ​​the ekranoplan has not died, like the "Lun", but on the contrary, lives on in the "Ivolga", "Orion", "Aquaglide", and S-90.


Ekranoplans are being developed in China (having seized Alekseev's developments for the Ivolga-2 and put together their own), South Korea, and even the US really wants to create something like that. The same Pelican project. But there is one problem. It is called "school". Yes, in the US in the 90s they recognized the usefulness of such a means of transportation as an ekranoplan. But in the USSR, ekranoplans were being developed since the 60s, and by the 90s they were already working quite well for their intended purpose.

Thirty years is a long time. And while the smart guys from Aurora (and they really are that smart) will work on what was already invented in our country half a century ago, Russian devices have every chance of a renaissance.

Amphibious ekranoplans have great prospects in general. An ekranoplan, until it lands on the water, is not afraid of mines and torpedoes, and kamikaze boats are not scary for it. It is a very convenient means of rescuing people, because it has a much higher speed than any ship, can land on water, unlike an airplane, and wins outright against a helicopter in terms of flight range and capacity. Accordingly, and landing capabilities. Well, the launch of various missiles from board such a high-speed device was tested on a Soviet machine.

There are some doubts that the American ekranoplan will really be cutting through the waves within the specified timeframe. The Americans have many desires, but not so many opportunities, so it is quite possible that the Freedom Fighter will fly after the Pelican.

But the Pelican was a good tease for the American military. First of all, with its capabilities. According to the project, this machine could transport 17 tanks The M1A1 could fly at a speed of about 10 km/h over a distance of 000 km. In airplane mode (for example, to fly around a storm), the Pelican could rise to an altitude of 500 meters and fly there at a speed of 6 km/h, but for half the distance.

American C-17 and C-5 transport planes can carry one tank at best. And during operations in Iraq in 2003, it took a month to transport one division because all the heavy weapons had to be transported by sea.
Tempting projects, very tempting. But I bet that neither in 2028 nor in 2030 will we see a "freedom fighter" carrying this very freedom over the waves of the Pacific Ocean. Not everything is as easy as we would like, even if we add bags of dollars. Such a path is not passed in a few years.
265 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +11
    7 May 2025 03: 49
    In this ekranoplan race, I would still bet on the Chinese. In light of territorial disputes at sea, such devices are more relevant for them.
    1. 0
      7 May 2025 05: 58
      Quote: andrewkor
      In this ekranoplan race, I would still bet on the Chinese. In light of territorial disputes at sea, such devices are more relevant for them.

      The Chinese are masters of copying, but they only take solutions from us in the form of ready-made samples, adopted for service, and even with technologies. If we do not give them this, then they prefer Western solutions and concepts, and there are none according to EP.
      1. 0
        7 May 2025 13: 26
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The Chinese are masters of copying, but they only take solutions from us in the form of ready-made samples, adopted for service, and even with technologies. If we do not give them this, then they prefer Western solutions and concepts, and there are none according to EP.

        Our unmercenaries have already given them everything, the article says so. They have received a lot from our developments in the field of aviation.
        1. +2
          7 May 2025 16: 21
          If they gave it to you, the cart is still there! Then it's not feed for the horse. laughing
      2. 0
        Yesterday, 05: 11
        Even Americans have acknowledged that China's engineering school is currently the best in the world.
    2. 2al
      -4
      7 May 2025 11: 05
      In this race, I bet on airships, which have an advantage over ekranoplans with their exorbitant price tag for cargo transportation compared to airships, in all economic parameters. Modern airships of non-traditional shapes and made of composite materials, lifting from 1000 tons and transporting at speeds up to 100 km/h are quite affordable for average companies (project cost up to $70 million).
    3. +17
      7 May 2025 11: 21
      In the ekranoplan race, I'm betting on classic aviation and equally classic shipbuilding. And I'll definitely win, since both ekranoplans and amphibians are extremely niche units.
      1. 0
        7 May 2025 15: 21
        Greetings, Andrew!
        You're betting riskily!
        If we project ekranoplans onto the Arctic and use the scale effect, the niche could be significant.
        I am currently working on ice-class vessels - there are countless problems. The same can be said about air transportation.
        Of course, both large-tonnage and light aviation will remain, but the middle segment may well be occupied by ekranoplans with a lifting capacity from several tens to hundreds of tons.
        1. +11
          7 May 2025 18: 46
          Good evening, Victor!
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          I am currently working on ice-class vessels - there are countless problems.

          So multiply it by two and you get an ekranoplan:)))))
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          If we project ekranoplans onto the Arctic

          Well, just imagine - it needs a runway for landing, no worse than a transport plane, only wider. It won't be able to land in water most of the time (any floating ice is dangerous for the hull). Operation will cost a fortune (it needs a dock, like a harrier). The cost, due to the increased number of engines and the hull's features, is prohibitive.
          That is, it is very difficult to come up with circumstances where an ekranoplan would be better than a ship or an airplane, but - with great difficulty. That is why I am writing about the niche nature of this device.
          1. 0
            7 May 2025 21: 31
            More good and different devices! I want to hope that this design will be successful.
          2. 0
            11 May 2025 14: 00
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That's why I'm writing about the niche nature of this device.

            But in the case of the Americans, this niche will be the Pacific Ocean in those latitudes where there is no ice. And in principle, their desire to haul a relatively large load and quickly is understandable.
    4. 0
      8 May 2025 18: 10
      Quote: andrewkor
      In this ekranoplan race

      Personally, I'm betting on common sense, i.e. the ekranoplan, as the experience of the USSR showed, is a dead-end branch of evolution. It's good in straight-line flight, but when turning, miracles begin that simply kill, in the literal sense, the ekranoplan along with everyone in it.
  2. +1
    7 May 2025 04: 48
    [quote]5 points – wind up to 40 km/h, and waves up to 2,5 meters.... ...at altitudes up to 4 meters above sea level[/quote]
    This is on the Beaufort scale, on the modern wave scale 5 points up to 4 meters. But considering that it is airplanes rather than ships that are presented, then 2,5 m is decent for them.

    [quote]The Soviet Union remains the most famous operator of military WIG designs, known worldwide. Also known as GEV (ground effect vehicle).

    [quote]In principle, ekranoplans are highly effective surface vessels.[/quote] Specifically, heavy combat ekranoplans. The rest are more like aircraft.

    [quote]High-speed flight across the sea surface is fraught with difficulties, including the risk of collision with various objects on the surface or even just high wave crests.[/quote]
    The radar ensures timely detection of obstacles, maneuverability allows to bypass them, ship strength of the structure and height of the screen ensures safety from accidental and sliding touches of wave crests. In addition, there is information that the height of the screen is measured from the CRESTS of the waves, and not the trough.
    [quote]There is a very effective Japanese seaplane ShinMaywa US-2, also considered as another potential option for creating such capabilities.[/quote] A wildly expensive device, with no payload capacity, the seaworthiness of which is provided by a special boundary layer control system with its own engine.
    [quote]An incomplete hydroplane, an incomplete ekranoplan, capable of flying from bases to islands in the Pacific Ocean and delivering stewed meat and Coca-Cola… [/quote] Well, why not? laughing , as a seaplane it may be okay. But as an ekranoplan it is definitely not. Because the seaworthiness afloat is like an airplane, due to its strength, the seaworthiness during takeoff is the same, and flying on the ekranoplan is much more dangerous than with an ekranoplan both due to its strength and because it is a high-wing aircraft. And this means that the risk of catching a wave with a thin-walled aircraft fuselage hanging much lower than the wing is much higher.
    1. +3
      7 May 2025 13: 16
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      In addition, there is information that the height of the screen is measured from the CRESTS of the waves, and not the troughs.

      Do you understand the principle of the screen? When flying directly above the surface, a compaction of air is formed between the device and the surface. It acts as a cushion on which the ekranoplan slides. And with large waves, a difference is obtained - one can assume that the "cushion effect" will be somewhat higher than in a calm sea, but certainly not from the crests of the waves.
      1. +1
        7 May 2025 16: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Do you understand the principle of the screen?

        At least no worse than you.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And with large waves there is a difference - we can assume that the "pillow effect" will be somewhat higher than in a calm sea, but certainly not from the wave crests.
        For the "Rescuer" the flight is indicated as "unlimited by wave", and there is neither confirmation nor refutation of the wave crest in open sources, but Alexander Vasilyevich Korobkin said this in his interview with the "Roy TV" channel,

        https://vk.com/video-80724605_456241291?to=L3ZpZGVvLTgwNzI0NjA1XzQ1NjI0MTI5MT8-
        25th minute.
        1. 0
          7 May 2025 18: 53
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          At least no worse than you.

          Yes, I have no doubt that the question was rhetorical.
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          but Alexander Vasilyevich Korobkin said about it

          Said:))) But did you listen to him carefully? He said about the wavelength - 20-30 meters. At the same time, the length of an ocean wave can reach 400 m.
          1. 0
            7 May 2025 19: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Said:))) But did you listen to him carefully? He said about the wavelength - 20-30 meters. At the same time, the length of an ocean wave can reach 400 m.
            But a wave 400 m long and up to 15 m high is already a severe storm. However, A.V. goes on to say that the EP bends around the long wave. So there may be a combination here.
            1. +1
              7 May 2025 20: 29
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              But a wave 400 m long and up to 15 m high is already a severe storm.

              That's the point, not quite. If you recall the history of the armored "Rurik", it was made so long precisely because of the size of the ocean wave, so that it would not lose speed on it, chasing British mail steamers. If my memory serves me right, the length was 150 m, and that's not in a storm.
              1. 0
                8 May 2025 05: 06
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                If my memory serves me right, the length was 150 m, and that's not during a storm.

                Well, 150 m of swell length is about 5 meters in height - even if we don't take into account the bending, it's quite safe for a 7-10 meter screen.
      2. +1
        8 May 2025 18: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        When flying directly above the surface, a seal of air is formed between the apparatus and the surface.

        Now try to make a turn when one side tries to compact the cushion (press it in), and the other side, on the contrary, loses it, because it rises. This is where the irreparable design flaw lies. The ekranoplan is used strictly in a straight line, any turn is for aces, and even then not for everyone and not always successfully.
        1. 0
          9 May 2025 07: 05
          Quote: qqqq
          The ekranoplan is used strictly in a straight line, any turn is for aces, and even then not for everyone and not always successfully.

          What a stupid thing ...
          1. +1
            9 May 2025 09: 03
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            What a stupid thing ...

            And what do these photos prove? Turning is possible, but it is a very difficult action for the pilot. It is quite possible that when turning, the ekranoplan enters flight mode, and this is a huge fuel consumption, which negates the whole idea of ​​the ekranoplan. It is not for nothing that everyone, even we, rejected it after testing. Technically, it is no more complex and no more expensive than an airplane, so that if desired, it could be stamped out, but given the shortcomings, the device is unpromising.
            1. -2
              9 May 2025 09: 47
              Quote: qqqq
              And what do these photos prove?

              These photos prove that you are writing nonsense.

              Quote: qqqq
              It is quite possible that when turning, the ekranoplan enters flight mode, and this is a huge fuel consumption, which negates the whole idea of ​​the ekranoplan.
              A flight mode that's so intense that it scrapes the water?

              Quote: qqqq
              It’s no wonder that everyone, even we, abandoned it after the tests.
              I have heard many versions of the refusal of the EP, but never such a feeble-minded one.
              1. +2
                9 May 2025 10: 36
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                A flight mode that's so intense that it scrapes the water?

                You'd think airplanes wouldn't fly at ultra-low altitudes. That's why piloting an ekranoplan is a very difficult task. Once again, when turning on one side, you have to overcome the force of the cushion that keeps the EP on the surface, and on the other side, it loses this cushion and tends to fall, because the speed is not enough for flight. And if this is a trivial task for a pilot, well then I really don't understand something.
                1. -2
                  9 May 2025 11: 47
                  Quote: qqqq
                  As if airplanes don't fly at extremely low altitudes. That's why piloting an ekranoplan is such a difficult task.

                  Powerful logical connection.

                  Quote: qqqq
                  Once again, when turning on one side, it is necessary to overcome the force of the cushion holding the EP on the surface, and on the other side, it loses this cushion and tends to fall, since the speed for flight is not enough.

                  What nonsense, it is enough to coordinate the work of the ailerons, the role of which on the EP is performed by the flaps, elevators and rudders.
                  The flap on the turn side is unchanged, the flap on the opposite side is deflected to increase the lift, nothing needs to be overcome. Then a typical turn with a bank, compensation for sliding down by the rudder and elevator, and the turn itself is performed by the elevator. The difficulty is only due to the increased probability of catching the wave crest with the console.
                  If you don't like the banked turn, try a sliding turn, slowly and sadly.
                  The EP was piloted by combat pilots, just in case.
                  They come up with some nonsense and believe in it.
                  1. +2
                    9 May 2025 12: 22
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    What nonsense, coordinated work of the ailerons is enough

                    You described to me the turn of the plane, where the same forces act on both wings. For the EP, a turn with a bank, in my opinion, is still not a trivial task. There, everything will be aimed at leveling the EP, one wing will be pushed up, and the other will fall down. You overdo it a little and yes, there is a wing touching the surface, and then it is no longer known what this will lead to, clearly nothing good will happen. And if there is a wave, then everything is completely unpredictable. A turn without a bank, there the radius will be mama do not spoil. I am writing that the EP is for moving in a straight line, if anything, then for a turn there must be kilometers, or even tens of kilometers of free space, and even without a wave. A regular airplane is simpler and cheaper in all respects.
                    1. -2
                      9 May 2025 12: 35
                      Quote: qqqq
                      You described to me the turn of an airplane where the same forces act on both wings.
                      If they acted the same, then the pilots would not compensate for the roll with the rudder (pedals). It seems like an elementary thing...

                      Quote: qqqq
                      There everything will be aimed at aligning the EP, one wing will be pushed up, and the other will fall down. A little overextended and yes, there is a wing touching the surface, and then it is already unknown what this will lead to, obviously nothing good will happen.
                      You stubbornly write nonsense, because if one half of the wing increased the lift force, then the second did not change, and accordingly its screen held, and will hold. As it will hold the part of the wing that went up, but somewhat less, which is compensated by the work of the aileron.
                      If it is still not clear, then they do not press, but raise...

                      Quote: qqqq
                      Turn without a roll, the radius there will be something special.
                      In the open sea it doesn't matter, but that's for the really crazy ones.

                      Quote: qqqq
                      I am writing that the EP is for moving in a straight line, if anything, then for turning there must be kilometers, or even tens of kilometers of free space, and even without waves.
                      Of course kilometers, at a speed of hundreds of kilometers and a mass of hundreds of tons. Only for airplanes the same kilometers are needed for this.

                      Quote: qqqq
                      A regular airplane is simpler and cheaper in all respects.
                      Yeah, written by a guy who believes in the nonsense about the horrors of the screen.
                      1. +2
                        9 May 2025 12: 52
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        written by a man who believes in nonsense about the horrors of the screen.

                        I believe that everything has to be paid for, and there is a price for the screen too. The wing on the EP has minimal lift, all hope is on the air cushion. In order for the air flow to start lifting the wing, the aircraft speed is needed. It is possible to simulate approximately a turn on the EP on an airplane, having previously loaded one wing to the maximum, and the second one to the maximum. And perform a turn with a bank towards the light wing. The turn is possible, I do not argue, but what will be the loss (gain) of altitude, now this is interesting. The light one imitates leaning on the air cushion, and the heavy one is a stall due to its reduction and insufficient lifting force of the wing.
                      2. 0
                        9 May 2025 13: 13
                        Quote: qqqq
                        In order for the air flow to begin to lift the wing, the aircraft speed is required.

                        Hand face... And what speeds does the EP support?

                        Quote: qqqq
                        The wing on the EP has minimal lift, all hope is on the air cushion.
                        Enough to make approaches and even fly off-screen. Only the turn is performed within the screen.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        It is possible to roughly simulate a turn on an EP on an airplane by first loading one wing to the maximum and lightening the other to the maximum.
                        Don't even think about telling this to the pilots, they'll beat you up! laughing
                      3. +1
                        9 May 2025 13: 20
                        The EP maintains speeds sufficient to create a cushion, but not sufficient for flight. Approaches are made with all engines on afterburner because the wing is small, it is not designed for flight. And how long the fuel and engine resource will last is obvious. An aircraft-type EP is unpromising. Life has proven it. A disk-shaped variant is possible, where the turn will be performed by changing the thrust vector of the engines, i.e. without changing the thickness over the entire area of ​​the EP air cushion.
                      4. 0
                        9 May 2025 13: 44
                        Quote: qqqq
                        The EPs maintain speeds sufficient to create a cushion, but not sufficient for flight. Approaches are made with all engines in afterburner because the wing is small and not designed for flight.

                        Again, fiction - the wing areas of the EP are comparable to the areas of aircraft of equal mass. Lun - 550 sq.m. at 380 tons, An-124 - 628 at 400 tons. And the speed - 440 cruising - significantly exceeds the takeoff for the An-124 - 310-350 km/h.


                        Quote: qqqq
                        Life has proven it.
                        Proved what? That opponents of EP either know nothing about the topic, or are making things up, or don't want to see the obvious.
                      5. 0
                        9 May 2025 17: 43
                        The area is still smaller, and the configuration is designed to create a cushion, not for maximum lift. No need to see enemies everywhere. Maybe it's not that simple with EP. Many people tried, and no one except us started to work on them. We advanced further than anyone else, but also abandoned this type of aircraft. It's like with a forward-swept aircraft, everyone did it and no one launched it into production. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
                      6. 0
                        10 May 2025 06: 06
                        Quote: qqqq
                        The area is still smaller, and the configuration is designed to create a cushion, not for maximum lift.

                        Yes, but the speed and area are enough for stable flight outside the screen.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        Many people tried it, but no one except us started to deal with it.
                        Nobody created large and high-speed EPs. And they didn't go beyond draft designs.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        We have advanced further than anyone else, but we also abandoned this type of aircraft.
                        And you don't take time into account? Actually, at this time the country, not itself, but the decision maker, abandoned many of the same ready-made models, the analogues of which are doing very well. Only in other countries.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        It's like with the forward-swept aircraft, everyone did it and no one put it into production.
                        There was no longer any need for its super-maneuverability.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        The disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
                        This is if you compare the EP with an airplane. As soon as you start comparing it with warships of equal tonnage and value, the only drawback becomes the price, and even then, if you forget about speed.
                      7. 0
                        10 May 2025 09: 01
                        Off-screen flight is afterburner. How long will the fuel last? 15-30 minutes, or even less, and that's it, plus the engine life. Flew a couple of times and then replaced. Didn't go beyond the sketch, maybe because they were careful with the funds? In the USSR, they didn't count the money for defense. On the one hand, this is good, but there are nuances. Has the need for super-maneuverability disappeared? Tell this to the creators of the SU-57 and why did they mold an engine with a deflected thrust vector, if not for super-maneuverability. Comparing the EP with ships, you take into account only the speed, but in other parameters there is a complete loss. Tonnage, weather conditions, where it can be used, resource and many other things are not in favor of the EP. Once again, in the end, people are not fools, that in all countries, including ours, they abandoned the EP. At this stage of technological development, this is a very, very narrow niche with exorbitant costs.
                      8. 0
                        11 May 2025 10: 59
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Off-screen flight, this is afterburner. As long as the fuel lasts, 15-30 minutes, or even less, and we're all set, plus the engine life. We flew a couple of times and then replaced.

                        In principle, there was no afterburner mode on the Lun, although the maximum takeoff is also not a gift. But you are not aware of such a thing as the fact that a garland of engines was needed when taking off from the WAVE, and a significant part of the thrust, I don’t know how much, but judging by the spray formation, it was not small, went UNDER the wing. Roughly, with a quality of 20 units, the Lun needed only 24 tons of thrust to fly on the screen. And this is only 4 engines, not even in cruising mode. So it’s normal, no afterburner. We turned on 4 more and alga.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        The need for super-maneuverability has disappeared? Tell this to the creators of the SU-57 and why they molded an engine with a deflectable thrust vector, if not for super-maneuverability.
                        I'm not talking about uselessness in general, but uselessness due to feedback. Not the same thing, you must admit.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        When comparing EPs with ships, you only take into account speed, but in other parameters there is a complete loss.
                        Honestly, you should be interested in the mass of the missiles and launchers and the number of radars on the Moon, and compare them with the closest ships in terms of missile type... Lun is a ship, and not a bad one, even without taking into account the speed.
    2. 0
      7 May 2025 16: 28
      3m waves are category C (Coastal sailing). And this is for a huge EP
      1. +1
        7 May 2025 16: 52
        Quote: Tlauicol
        3m waves are category C (Coastal sailing). And this is for a huge EP

        You couldn't help but get it wrong even here. Not 3, but 4 meters of wave, and this is seaworthiness at TAKEOFF, not safe seaworthiness.
        1. +1
          7 May 2025 17: 22
          Which is confirmed by video, photo? I would like to see how the harrier, eaglet, km are banging on a wave of 4m
          1. -1
            7 May 2025 17: 28
            Quote: Tlauicol
            I would like to see how the harrier, the eaglet, km are hitting the 4m wave

            Only Lun, Orlyonok was smaller and had a less successful architecture, and there is no data at all about KM.

            Quote: Tlauicol
            Which is confirmed by video, photo?
            Personally, I have enough data in open sources. Especially considering that Lun was tested for about four years, and even in Soviet times.
            However, there is ShinMeiwa, about whom they also write that she is capable of taking off from a 5-point wave. So she still flies, more than ten in number, but there are no photos or videos of such a takeoff.
            1. +1
              7 May 2025 17: 39
              https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/836604-ekranoplany-sssr-istoriya
              Well, if that's enough, then here it is. T. R. Alekseeva.
              Note that KM was larger.
              1. -2
                7 May 2025 19: 25
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Well, if that's enough, then here it is. T. R. Alekseeva.
                Note that KM was larger.

                It's simply amazing what you write:
                Quote: Tlauicol
                But it was repaired a zillion times, after every rough sea.

                And what they write from Aleseyeva’s words:
                The thing is that during the tests it often received damage - for example, it got into a storm, all the flaps were crushed. ... ... Since they abused it as much as they could, repairs were frequent, that's what it was intended for.

                You don't see any difference at all between a storm, a taunt and a turbulence?
                Of course, there are also words like these:
                Not higher than 20-30 meters. But they couldn't fly for a long time, because there would be a completely different layout for the wing to rise up.

                And here most likely it is not ignorance of some episodes, because Orlyonok has a completely aviation configuration, and so does Lun, albeit rare. And pilots talk about Orlyonok's flights at aviation altitude...
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Note that KM was larger.
                Once again, larger does not mean stronger. And the Lun's body is clearly larger in cross-section, and the wing is 4 m wider, and the height is a couple.
                1. 0
                  7 May 2025 19: 35
                  And wider, and bigger, and it was in the dock, just in case. Yes So that nothing gets crushed by the waves.
                  So the EP can't be on duty at sea for five days.
                  They say, they say... The recorders just forget to turn on
                  1. -3
                    7 May 2025 19: 50
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    And wider, and bigger, and it was in the dock, just in case. Yes, so that nothing would be crushed by the waves.

                    Sometimes your EPs are heavy because they are strong, sometimes they are not strong enough for the wave. L - logic!
                    Continue in the same spirit! good
                    1. +2
                      7 May 2025 19: 52
                      Heavy to fly. Fragile to ride the waves.
                      And you stop with sophistry negative
                      1. -4
                        7 May 2025 19: 56
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Heavy to fly. Fragile to ride the waves.

                        Ah, they are no longer able to fly... And how fragile are they? After all, the working skin is from 4 to 12 mm, which is thicker than for sea-going hydrofoils (4 mm bottom) and even comparable to the skin of MPC PK (8 bottom and part of the sides).
                        You don't know a damn thing about aviation or the navy.
                      2. +1
                        8 May 2025 05: 37
                        The designer of the design bureau Alekseev and his daughter tell you that they couldn’t fly, and you’re still drooling
                      3. 0
                        8 May 2025 05: 58
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        The designer of the design bureau Alekseev and his daughter tell you that they couldn’t fly, and you’re still drooling

                        Accordingly, she was not obliged to bring it to light, because she was not allowed on board the flights. And she also said:
                        "It only took one to bomb an aircraft carrier"
                        and such
                        Secondly, the layout is different. On the "Luna" and "Spasatel" the engines are in the nose on pylons, and on the "Orlyonok" - in the tail.


                        https://www.kp.ru/daily/28356.5/4502786/
                      4. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 12
                        "There were ekranolet projects, but we didn't build them. "KM", "Orlyonok", "Lun" made approaches, that is, they could briefly rise above the surface to go around some obstacle. No higher than 20-30 meters."
                        They didn't even build something like this. Leading engineer of the Alekseeva Design Bureau
                      5. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 14
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Accordingly, she was not obliged to bring it to light, because she was not allowed on board the flights. And she also said:
                        "It only took one to bomb an aircraft carrier"
                        and such
                        Secondly, the layout is different. On the "Luna" and "Spasatel" the engines are in the nose section on pylons, and on the Orlyonok - in the tail.

                        You never know what the old woman said.
                      6. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 16
                        Weren't they obliged to prove that they, including she herself, designed it? Oh, well. We'll wait for the transcript of the flight recorders, and in the meantime, let's listen to the tales.
                      7. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 23
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        We are waiting for the transcript of the flight recorders, but in the meantime, let's listen to the stories

                        Ah, I remember you also demanded printouts of objective radar control from border guards and Aeroflot about flights 40 years ago.

                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Weren't they obliged to prove that they, including herself, designed it there?
                        But she had nothing to do with Orlyonok. Otherwise she wouldn't have said such stupidity:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Secondly, the layout is different. On the "Luna" and "Spasatel" the engines are in the nose section on pylons, and on the Orlyonok - in the tail.

                        But you continue to ignore the obvious...
                      8. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 26
                        I wanted proof. I am guilty. But they feed me with tales.
                        Had. Read the article.
                      9. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 30
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        I wanted proof. I am guilty. But they feed me with tales.

                        Well, ShinMeiwa supposedly has a seaworthiness rating of 5 points at takeoff. But there is no proof...

                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Read the article.

                        I see this stupidity there:

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Secondly, the layout is different. On the "Luna" and "Spasatel" the engines are in the nose on pylons, and on the "Orlyonok" - in the tail.
                      10. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 41
                        So don't believe them. Until they are not there.
                      11. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 42
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        So don't believe them. Until they are not there.

                        But why not believe the calculation data from Soviet engineers, as well as Japanese ones.
                      12. +2
                        8 May 2025 06: 51
                        T.R. Alekseeva is not an engineer?
                        Oh, yes - "an elderly woman". A fool - just say so.
                      13. 0
                        8 May 2025 06: 58
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        T.R. Alekseeva is not an engineer?
                        Oh, yes - "an elderly woman". A fool - just say so.

                        Specifically, she made a downright stupid mistake regarding a specific sample:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Secondly, the layout is different. On the "Luna" and "Spasatel" the engines are in the nose on pylons, and on the "Orlyonok" - in the tail.
  3. +8
    7 May 2025 04: 59
    Well, what next? Everyone is working, they have something flying, something in the project, but our "Lun" will not fly anymore, and I'm not even sure that we will be able to repeat it...
    1. -4
      7 May 2025 05: 13
      Quote from turembo
      Our "Lun" will not fly anymore, and I'm not even sure that we will be able to repeat it...

      "Lun" is much simpler than the same Il-76, much... Heavier, but simpler.
  4. -1
    7 May 2025 05: 10
    Somehow the Author completely forgot about our ekranoplan "Lun", which stands completely abandoned on the Caspian coast of Dagestan and is intended only for posing for tourists. And what a project it was....
    1. +3
      7 May 2025 07: 36
      On May 1st I was near Lun, they surrounded it with scaffolding and were going to paint it.
    2. +4
      7 May 2025 13: 11
      That means you didn't read the article.
  5. +2
    7 May 2025 05: 42
    It has been discussed more than once. Ekranoplans are inferior to airplanes in every way.
    1. -5
      7 May 2025 05: 51
      It's the same with our airplanes - almost nothing... We "wear out" Soviet developments, and then we buy everything.
      1. -2
        7 May 2025 06: 00
        Why not how? For years we have been straining over (PAK FAK DAK and so on). True, the T64 is better.
    2. +1
      7 May 2025 05: 55
      Quote: SVD68
      It has been discussed more than once. Ekranoplans are inferior to airplanes in every way.

      They looked badly. On water, the EP is not inferior to ships of equal tonnage. And the plane on water, well, not at all.
      1. +2
        7 May 2025 06: 04
        Well looked at. People have no needs "on the water" that would require speed. All these needs are fully satisfied from the ground by air. That is why seaplanes have become very minimal.
        1. +1
          7 May 2025 06: 07
          Quote: SVD68
          Well looked at. People don't have needs "on the water" that would require speed.

          Are you sure? That is why they create high-speed combat catamarans, ships on wings, cushions and caverns, and ordinary surface ships are equipped with additional full-speed engines, which are several times more expensive than economical speed engines, but are used only a few times?
          Quote: SVD68
          All these needs are fully satisfied from the ground by air.
          Is this why they build small combat ships?
          1. +2
            7 May 2025 06: 31
            Small combat ships are capable of operating for several days away from their base. Ekranoplans operate like airplanes - take off to a target and return.
            1. +1
              7 May 2025 06: 35
              Quote: SVD68
              Small combat ships are capable of operating for several days away from their base. Ekranoplans operate like airplanes - take off to a target and return.

              Hmm. The semi-experimental Lun with 12 sailors has a declared autonomy of 5 days. Do you think it was hanging in the air for those five days? EP - a ship with a non-displacement main mode of movement.
              1. 0
                7 May 2025 06: 44
                And what is Lun's tactic for the 5th day?
                1. +2
                  7 May 2025 06: 48
                  Quote: SVD68
                  And what is Lun's tactic for the 5th day?

                  Taking into account the complete analogy of the strike weapons and equipment of the Sivuch missile system or the Molniya missile system - the corresponding one. Being in the search area, searching for enemy ships on their own or waiting for external target designation, launching and retreating at maximum speed. Only the speed is 10 times higher than that of the Sivuch missile system and 5 times higher than that of the Sivuch.
                  1. 0
                    7 May 2025 16: 31
                    Nonsense. KM was even bigger than Lun. But it was repaired a zillion times, after every turbulence at sea.
                    1. +1
                      7 May 2025 16: 35
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      Nonsense. KM was even bigger than Lun. But it was repaired a zillion times, after every turbulence at sea.

                      Don't tell me fairy tales. After takeoffs and landings on a wave, easily. But just after turbulence - no. And the fact that the KM is a mock-up ship, as if to say that this is a test case. And larger does not mean stronger.
                      1. 0
                        7 May 2025 16: 49
                        These are not fairy tales, these are the words of Tatyana Alekseeva, Honored Designer of the Russian Federation, leading engineer of the Alekseev Central Design Bureau.
                        Tatyana Rostislavovich, if you didn’t understand.
                        Besides everything else, she also said that Orlyonok didn't fly at all, and couldn't fly, and wasn't an ekranoplan at all. The maximum it could jump was 20-40m, if I remember correctly.
                      2. 0
                        7 May 2025 17: 10
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Tatyana Alekseeva - Honored Designer of the Russian Federation, leading engineer of the Alekseev Central Design Bureau.
                        Tatyana Rostislavovich, if you didn’t understand.

                        No, I didn't get it. A link please, because I've looked through a lot of things on EP, but I haven't come across anything like this.
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Nonsense. KM was even bigger than Lun. But it was repaired a zillion times, after every turbulence at sea.
      2. +2
        7 May 2025 13: 17
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        We didn't look well. On the water, the EP is not inferior to ships of equal tonnage.

        It's inferior in everything except speed. Oh, and it's also an order of magnitude more expensive.
        1. -1
          7 May 2025 17: 07
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Inferior in everything except speed.

          Well, compare the capabilities of Lun and, for example, Project 1241.1 Molniya, 240-280 tons versus 360-370 dry weight.
          So, if we take purely strike missiles, then Lun could throw 8 tons more missiles, and if we take the total weight of weapons, then Lun could lift everything that Molniya carried - both missiles and artillery with all the shells. But Molniya could not simultaneously carry Moskits and Pozitiv, the stability did not allow it. But Lun could. Check it out. And the range in the original, and even the autonomy is approximately. And even the fuel...

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Oh, and it's an order of magnitude more expensive
          And why would a ship built from the same materials and basically using the same technology differ in price by an order of magnitude from a noticeably heavier one? No, well, one can imagine that 8 turbines are an order of magnitude cheaper than two, but what exactly can one imagine?
          1. +2
            7 May 2025 21: 52
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Well, compare the capabilities of Lun and, for example, Project 1241.1 Molniya, 240-280 tons versus 360-370 dry weight.

            390 tons of the Lightning is the standard displacement, which includes all supplies and ammunition + the weight of the crew, but no fuel or water. And 240 tons is the weight of an empty Lun. However, how much the warhead and other supplies will weigh, I don't know, maybe 280 tons is what you said correctly.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            So, if we take purely strike missiles, then Lun could throw 8 tons more missiles, and if we take the total weight of weapons, then Lun could lift everything that Molniya carried - both missiles and artillery with all the shells.

            I don't quite understand what you're talking about. Lun carried 2 more missiles (6 versus 4), but it didn't have an Ak-176, and instead of metal cutters it had quadruple 23mm mounts. A 76mm AU weighs significantly more than two 80M-23 missiles, and the "metal cutters" are heavier than XNUMXmm mounts. Molniya's advantage is its artillery fire control radar, which Lun didn't have.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            But Lightning couldn't carry Mosquitoes and Positive at the same time, it wasn't stable enough. But Lun could.

            Honestly, I don't even know where this comes from. What Pozitiv are you talking about (there are many of them) and where did you get the idea that it was put on "Lunya"?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And the range in the source, and even the autonomy approximately. And even the fuel...

            The Lun has a practical range of 2000 km, while the RKR has a range of up to 2200-2400 miles.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And why would a ship built from the same materials and basically using the same technology differ in price by an order of magnitude from a noticeably heavier one?

            Lun is not a ship, but an airplane - if you take it by design, and therefore by price.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            No, well, you can imagine that 8 turbines are an order of magnitude cheaper than two, but that’s what you can imagine.

            The Karakurt with a displacement of 800 tons cost about 2018 billion rubles in 7, and the Su-35 - about 1,5 billion rubles with a weight (normal takeoff) of 25 tons.
            1. 0
              8 May 2025 05: 43
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              However, I don’t know how much the warheads and other reserves will weigh, maybe 280 tons, and you said it right.

              Plus or minus, that's why there's a gap. Including for Lightning.

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I don't quite understand what you're talking about. Lun carried 2 more missiles (6 versus 4), but it didn't have an Ak-176, and instead of metal cutters it had quadruple 23mm mounts. A 76mm AU weighs significantly more than two 80M-23 missiles, and the "metal cutters" are heavier than XNUMXmm mounts. Molniya's advantage is its artillery fire control radar, which Lun didn't have.
              Let me explain, you counted the missiles (4 tons each) but did not take into account the launchers, and each tube weighs about as much as a missile. So, 16 tons are gone. And these 16 tons include an AK-176 and one AK-630, and with a BK.

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Honestly, I don't even know where this comes from. What Pozitiv are you talking about (there are many of them) and where did you get the idea that it was put on "Lunya"?
              From stalker photos of Lun's insides. And Pozitiv is old, probably older than Pozitiv-E, because I couldn't find any other photos of the radar with a parabolic antenna outside the hood... ME with FAR is already everywhere. But about this in the article. I'll post it soon.

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The Lun has a practical range of 2000 km, while the RKR has a range of up to 2200-2400 miles.
              Which is always posted together with the maximum speed. But he had both cruising and economical.

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Lun is not a ship, but an airplane - if you take it by design, and therefore by price.
              The fact that it was mostly welded already distinguishes it from an airplane in price, and it is much simpler in design and materials... But more about that in the first part of the article.

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The Karakurt with a displacement of 800 tons cost about 2018 billion rubles in 7, and the Su-35 - about 1,5 billion rubles with a weight (normal takeoff) of 25 tons.
              In the article I compare Lun with Il-76. But let's estimate using your example. Even if we consider the fighter's engine equal to a not very advanced commercial engine for Lun in price (which is obviously not the case), then Lun can cost as much as four Su. - i.e. already cheaper than Karakurt. Well, let's throw out electronics and weapons. Let Karakurt be 4 billion 5 million tons. Let 240 tons of Lun be 25 million tons. Where is the order?
              Well, let's go in order ))) - Lun was welded in mass, Lun had only one set of avionics, not four, there was not a gram of titanium in the design of the EP, the design of the EP wing was simply primitive, compared to the wing of the Su, the design of the Lun chassis... it did not exist, the ski, even the hydrofoil - not a chassis, and even one, not four sets, the metal was just sheets and other rolled products, not chemical milling and other bells and whistles.
              And that's not counting the small detail that Lun was built at a shipyard...
              No, it's not that expensive, a ton may be a couple of times more expensive, but the ships are heavier, and there's enough aluminum in them... It's enough. Bash on bash.
              1. 0
                8 May 2025 10: 44
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Let me explain, you counted the missiles (4 tons each) but did not take into account the launchers, and each tube weighs about as much as a missile. So, 16 tons are gone.

                Excuse me, but do you have a link that would confirm this statement? Lun weighed 240 tons empty, do you mean to say that 24 tons of this weight were launching?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                From stalker photos of Lun's insides.

                That is, you don’t know for sure what was there.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And Pozitiv is old, probably older than Pozitiv-E, because I couldn’t find any other photos of the radar with a parabolic antenna outside the cap...

                However, the Pozitiv-E antenna post weighs only 800 kg. But you write
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                But Lightning couldn’t carry Mosquitoes and Positive at the same time, it didn’t have the stability.

                A ship weighing 500 tons can't have 800 kg on a low mast? Not only Pozitiv, but also Pantsir-M were installed in Shuya
                But the entire Pozitiv-E with the instrumentation weighs 4 tons. And it is highly doubtful that it would be on the "Luna"
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                No, it's not okay.

                Let's make it easier.
                Here is the Orion-20 ekranoplan, maximum takeoff weight up to 12 tons. Cost - 150 million rubles.
                as of 2014.
                And here is the motor yacht Slider - 42 from a domestic manufacturer. Empty weight is 11,3 tons. Cost is 15 million rubles, but already for 2023.
                Taking inflation into account, the Orion-20 would cost 2023 million rubles by 280,95.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And that's not counting the small detail that Lun was built at a shipyard...

                Not at the shipyard, but at the pilot plant at the R. E. Alekseev Central Design Bureau for Hydrofoils. These are slightly different things.
                1. 0
                  9 May 2025 04: 46
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Excuse me, but do you have a link that would confirm this statement? Lun weighed 240 tons empty, do you mean to say that 24 tons of this weight were launching?

                  According to various sources, the weight of an empty Lun is from 240 to 280 tons, and 240 is suspiciously similar to the weight of the KM, which is noticeably more slender. And the approximate, and rather understated, because the deflectors, the weight of the KT-215 PU, is derived on the basis that the weight of the PU, both inclined and vertical, is approximately equal to the weight of the missiles in them.

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  That is, you don’t know for sure what was there.
                  You can judge by the photo of the antennas, you can also judge by the data from similarly armed ships - Sivuch and the same Molniya, and there everything is in order with the names. And I am sure that you will not find on the Internet, photos of antennas of early modifications of Pozitiv, except for one single one with Pozitiv-E.

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  However, the Pozitiv-E antenna post weighs only 800 kg. But you write
                  Without taking into account the cap and the actual platform for the radar, which is noticeably larger than the navigation one.

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  A ship weighing 500 tons can't have 800 kg on a low mast? Not only Pozitiv, but also Pantsir-M were installed in Shuya

                  It is possible, and they did, but at the cost of abandoning the Moskit and installing the Termit, almost one and a half tons of lighter anti-ship missiles. 4x1,5 is minus six tons and the same number of launchers.
                  Oh yeah, the fact that, apart from the hull, part of the decks and bulkheads, almost the entire Molniya, and not only, is aluminum, is because it doesn’t matter whether it’s a conditional 800 kg on the mast plus or 300-400, right?
                  Well, I am surprised that you write so frivolously about the decrease in stability for a small single-hull ship.


                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  But the entire Pozitiv-E with the instrumentation weighs 4 tons. And it is highly doubtful that it would be on the "Luna"
                  KM with the same takeoff thrust as Lun and a slightly larger wing area had a maximum takeoff weight of 540 (five hundred and forty) tons. What are these four tons to a heavy ekranoplan?

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Let's make it simple... ...And here is the motor yacht Slider - 42 from a domestic manufacturer.
                  I understand that the example with the Su-35 and Karakurt is bad and completely broken, bring another one!
                  Of course, the second example is better, because you can compare a vessel with the possibility of all-season use, a range of 1500 km, a passenger capacity of 21 hours and a boat for summer swimming for 12 people, which does not even try to be fast, with an unknown power reserve.
                  Why don't you immediately suggest comparing it with the "Kazanka" on oars?
                  Can you compare it to Raptor? Or its original - CB90? Which costs two million greenbacks...
                  O - objectivity...
                  But specifically Orion, it is most likely built with aviation strength standards, and therefore technologies, but for light seaplanes. Because it does not particularly need seaworthiness.

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Not at the shipyard, but at the pilot plant at the R. E. Alekseev Central Design Bureau for Hydrofoils. These are slightly different things.

                  How different? Building ships on PC and VP makes this plant an aviation plant?
                  Well, Lun was built at the Volga experimental plant, only for some reason it was transformed not into an aircraft plant, but a shipbuilding plant, which is strange, because a hydrofoil vessel is an airplane (sarcasm).
                  In 1992, the enterprise was transformed into the open joint-stock company "Volga Shipyard". The plant built a series of high-speed air-cavity vessels "Serna", "Sokzhoy", a series of passenger hydrofoils "Katran", "Lastochka-M" and "Dolphin".
                  1. +1
                    9 May 2025 10: 23
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    I understand that the example with the Su-35 and Karakurt is bad and completely broken, bring another one!

                    It's good, but you don't want to accept it. So I found an example for you that's closer to the topic of the discussion.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Of course, the second example is better, because you can compare a vessel with the possibility of all-season use, a range of 1500 km, a passenger capacity of 21 hours and a boat for summer swimming for 12 people, which does not even try to be fast, with an unknown power reserve.

                    But to put it bluntly, the "summer bathing boat" has separate cabins with berths, etc., while the Orion has banal chairs, like on a regular airplane. That is, the yacht uses significantly more weight per passenger than the ekranoplan, so the smaller number of people on board is not an indicator at all. Its speed is 10 knots with an 85 hp engine, and the engine can be optionally up to 240 hp.
                    Of course, you are right in some ways. But the problem is that redesigning the yacht to suit your wishes (speed, etc.) will increase its cost insignificantly. Even if it doubles, it is still an order of magnitude less than an ekranoplan.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Can you compare it to Raptor? Or its original - CB90? Which costs two million greenbacks...

                    And this man accuses me of being biased...
                    That is, comparing two Russian civilian vehicles designed to carry passengers is bad form. And comparing a civilian ekranoplan with a military "Raptor", which is a priori more expensive in terms of the presence of equipment and weapons that the Orion does not have (by the way, it had Rolls-Royce engines) or with its foreign analogue - that's it.

                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Well, Lun was built at the Volga experimental plant, only for some reason it was transformed not into an aircraft plant, but a shipbuilding plant, which is strange, because a hydrofoil vessel is an airplane (sarcasm).

                    You are tempted by false analogies. The experimental plant "Volga" began as a shipbuilding plant (hydrofoils), then it worked on ekranoplans. That is, the plant received the necessary equipment for their production. Then it was redesigned again as a shipbuilding plant, but this does not mean that it is a standard shipbuilding plant, and that any classic shipbuilding plant with the existing equipment will master the production of ekranoplans.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Oh yeah, the fact that, apart from the hull, part of the decks and bulkheads, almost the entire Molniya, and not only, is aluminum, is because it doesn’t matter whether it’s a conditional 800 kg on the mast plus or 300-400, right?

                    Absolutely right. Especially since we need to calculate not 800 kg, but much less - both the mast and the radar are present on the RKR, so we are not talking about the mass of the mast + the antenna post of the Pozitiv, but about the difference in its weight and what is installed on the Molniya.
                    1. 0
                      9 May 2025 10: 56
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      It's good, but you don't want to accept it. So I found an example for you that's closer to the topic of the discussion.

                      So it's good, but the pricing is bad?

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Of course, you are right in some ways. But the problem is that redesigning the yacht to suit your wishes (speed, etc.) will increase its cost insignificantly. Even if it doubles, it is still an order of magnitude less than an ekranoplan.
                      You are very much mistaken. Because increasing the speed to at least 40 knots will sharply increase the cost of the vessel, since it will be unachievable with the existing contours and materials. Moreover, the range at full speed will be incomparable.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      That is, comparing two Russian civilian vehicles designed to transport passengers is bad form.

                      To spit on the difference in speed, range and seasonality is obviously a sign of good taste... In general, EP is first and foremost speed.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And comparing a civilian ekranoplan with a military "Raptor", which is a priori more expensive due to the presence of equipment and weapons that are not on the Orion (by the way, it had Rolls-Royce engines) or with its foreign analogue - that's it.

                      Well, we'll throw out the weapons and radar, well, there will be a million (more), not two. So the superiority in speed and range will not go anywhere. And also - the Raptor and the S-bot of the Swedes are shipbuilding technologies. And also, what, in your opinion, is it impossible to stick a turret and radar on the EP? No, it's the best in comparison...

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      The experimental plant "Volga" started as a shipbuilding plant (hydrofoils), then it worked on ekranoplans. That is, the plant received the necessary equipment for their production.
                      And what kind of equipment is that? Riveting machine and welding equipment for aluminum? What technologies are used in the production of EP? Solid-pressed large-sized panels? No. Chemical milling of panels? No. Maybe titanium center sections? And what is titanium? What is there that is not required for the construction of aluminum ships? For example, for the MPC/MRK PC, technologies for working with titanium were needed. Sorry, but your words about some technologies are mantras.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      and that any classic shipbuilding company, using its existing equipment, will master the production of ekranoplans.
                      Any plant capable of building a hydroelectric power station will also build an electric power station.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      so we are not talking about the mass of the mast + antenna post of Pozitiv, but about the difference in its weight and what is installed on Molniya.
                      However, with Mosquitoes, Positives were not installed, as well as ZRAK.
                      1. 0
                        9 May 2025 20: 36
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        So it's good, but the pricing is bad?

                        If you mean your layout - yes, it's no good.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Even if we consider the fighter's engine to be equal in price to a not-so-advanced commercial engine for Lun (which is obviously not the case)

                        This is obviously true - the Lun engine is much more powerful (13 kgf in non-afterburning mode versus 000 kgf in the Su-8). It is a ton heavier. So the Su-000 engine may be comparable in price due to the afterburning mode and the all-Rakur nozzle, but it may not. If there is no exact data, then it is worth assuming that they are comparable in price.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        then Lun can cost as much as four Su - i.e. already cheaper than Karakurt

                        Unfortunately, your logic does not work. Tu-160M ​​with 4 engines, the power of which corresponds to "Lunevsky" (but with afterburner capability) in 2018 cost about 16 billion rubles per unit. That is, not like 4, but like 10 with a tail Su-35.
                        The same goes for the rest. You don't state facts, you give judgments, and they are not supported by practice.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        You are very much mistaken. Because increasing the speed to at least 40 knots will dramatically increase the cost of the vessel.

                        No. There will be an increase in value, of course, but by tens of percent, not hundreds. This is, again, an objective fact.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        because it will be unachievable with the existing contours and materials.

                        The lines are worth nothing - the ship will be built to the lines that the designer gives, there is practically no increase in cost here. But the power plant - yes, it will cost more. It can cost several times more. But the power plant is only part of the cost of the ship, so the ship will not add that much to the total cost.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Not caring about the difference in speed, range and season is obviously a sign of good taste...

                        The range of the yacht is not defined, but in general it is usually quite large - such yachts (50-foot) go through seas, and even oceans. And seasonality... Orion-20 is not all-season. It is all-season only where the water does not freeze. Like the yacht.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In fact, EP is, first of all, speed.

                        No. This is aviation - first of all, speed, and the EP is neither one thing nor the other.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Well, we'll throw out the weapons and radar, well, there will be a million (more), not two.

                        Again, judgments are pouring in. You don't know how much Raptor costs, you don't know how much Orion-20 would cost if it were manufactured abroad, so you say "But in my opinion..." Well, you have the right to have your opinion in any pose convenient for you, but facts are needed for a discussion.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And also, in your opinion, it is impossible to install a turret and a radar on the EP?

                        Yes, it is possible. But it will cost a little more than 280 million in 2023 prices. In my opinion, you have a very poor understanding of the difference in price between a civilian and a military product. Almost everything is more expensive for the military due to special requirements.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What kind of equipment is this?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Any plant capable of building a hydroelectric power station will also build an electric power station.

                        Again, speculation.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Sorry, but your words about some technologies are mantras.

                        You see, it is you who postulate that this is possible. It is up to you to prove it. You take the position: "I think that an ekranoplan can be built at any shipyard, disprove me!", which is a little bit wrong.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        However, with Mosquitoes, Positives were not installed, as well as ZRAK.

                        And there could be a million reasons for this - from economic to political. But here
                        The appeal to stability is completely absurd, believe me, from a person who has slightly gnawed at the theory of this issue.
                      2. 0
                        10 May 2025 07: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        If you mean your layout - yes, it's no good.
                        Well, of course it's not suitable, it refutes your thesis about the cost of the EP being an order of magnitude greater than that of a ship with comparable capabilities. The complexity of the design, the chassis and the avionics are also mentioned there. Ugh, in short.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is obviously true - the Lun engine is much more powerful (13 kgf in non-afterburning mode versus 000 kgf in the Su-8)... So the Su-000 engine may be comparable in price due to the afterburning mode and the all-Rakur nozzle, but it may not. If there is no exact data, then it is worth assuming that they are comparable in price.
                        The NK-86 weighed 2,5 tons at 3,5 meters in length without a reverser (the NK-87 does not have one), and the AL-41F1 weighed 1,6 tons at 5 meters in length. That is, you think that a much more compact engine and at the same time noticeably more powerful in afterburner, and even with a nozzle that everyone has mastered for a long time, will be cheaper? Let me smile... By the way, 13 tons of thrust is the maximum takeoff mode. Almost afterburner.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Unfortunately, your logic does not work. Tu-160M ​​with 4 engines, the power of which corresponds to "Lunevsky" (but with afterburner capability) in 2018 cost about 16 billion rubles per unit. That is, not like 4, but like 10 with a tail Su-35.
                        The fact that you ignore the huge mass and dimensions for supersonic flight, the SIS wing, the titanium center section, the chassis for this monster, the fact that the engines were, to put it mildly, far from commercial in terms of both mass and cost, but at the same time you mention logic? Sorry, but I somehow remember Kaptsov.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The lines cost nothing - the vessel will be built to the lines that the designer provides, there is practically no increase in cost.
                        It's very strange, then why did you take ONLY the mass as a basis for comparison? I actually cited the Raptor because it has the same mass, but you didn't like it because it's expensive. And what about the fact that it has a speed of 40 knots?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Orion-20 is not all-season. It is all-season only where the water does not freeze. Like a yacht.
                        I am amazed. What does it mean that he is on soft/semi-soft floats? You are not interested in the subject of the dispute at all, otherwise you would have seen more than one photo and possibly a video of him on the ice!

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No. This is aviation - first of all, speed, and the EP is neither one thing nor the other.
                        Well, yes, 250 km/h is not speed. But for a helicopter it is already a good speed.
                        And for An-2 it is quite fast. For CASA C-212 Aviocar for 20-28 passengers it is of course less than the cruising one (300), but it is lighter and has more powerful engines and is based at the airfield.
                        By the way, why not compare Orion with equivalent aviation? Or is it ugh, a boat with 10 knots is a different matter.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You don't know how much the Raptor costs, you don't know how much the Orion-20 would cost if it were manufactured abroad, so you say "But in my opinion..."
                        Sorry, but I gave a completely correct example. Which takes into account both mass and speed, unlike your very modest twenty-tonner...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In my opinion, you have a very poor understanding of the difference in price between a civilian and a military product. Almost everything is more expensive for the military due to special requirements.

                        I won't argue. But if there is an example of a 20-ton, 40-knot Russian civilian boat, where is it?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Any plant capable of building a hydroelectric power station will also build an electric power station.
                        Again, speculation.
                        Of course, speculation, but they are based on the analysis of solutions used for aircraft of comparable mass and available, including photos. And yours and other opponents of the EP are only speculation. Because you are too lazy to even look at what is going on with the EP.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You take the position: "I think that an ekranoplan can be built at any shipyard, disprove me!"
                        Not really, only those who build agricultural production cooperatives.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And there could be a million reasons for this - from economic to political. But here
                        The appeal to stability is completely absurd, believe me, from a person who has slightly gnawed at the theory of this issue.
                        Installing the most effective air defense system on small ships, on a ship with an obviously ineffective main weapon - this is obviously any solution except one related to stability. hi
                      3. 0
                        10 May 2025 11: 06
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Well, of course it's not good, it refutes your thesis about the cost.

                        That’s the point, he refutes my thesis only in your reality, which you yourself have invented.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The complexity of the design, the chassis and avionics are also mentioned there.

                        Your judgments on the complexity of the design and avionics are mentioned there. You have no evidence to support your opinion. I will show this using the example of the engine
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The NK-86 weighed 2,5 tons at 3,5 meters in length without a reverser (the NK-87 does not have one), and the AL-41F1 weighed 1,6 tons at 5 meters in length. That is, do you think that a much more compact engine and at the same time noticeably more powerful in afterburner, and even with a nozzle that everyone has mastered for a long time, will be cheaper?

                        Of course. Because I at least understand in general terms how the engine is constructed, while you are proceeding from personal fantasies about its design. Your logic is clear - you do not understand how the afterburner is implemented and therefore it seems to you that since the AL-41F1 is much lighter than the NK-86, it is, of course, much more expensive (the price for compactness with almost the same power, like a laptop compared to a desktop computer).
                        In fact, everything is completely different. The Al-41F1 is practically the same engine as the NK-86, and it is smaller because it develops less thrust. - 8000 kgf versus 13000 kgf. But it has a so-called afterburner between the nozzle and the turbine. This is a small and relatively (if compared to the engine design) simple unit, resembling a regular gas burner in design:)))) Simply put, fuel is fed there and it burns in it, which gives an increase in speed.
                        Do you understand? That is, with afterburner, the Al-41F1 absorbs exactly as much air as without afterburner. And its revolutions are exactly the same. And in general, the engine operates in its standard mode, producing its 8000 kgf of afterburner power. And the increase in power and speed is provided by a relatively simple design due to a multiple increase in fuel consumption.
                        Thus, the afterburner increases the cost of the engine, but not significantly. And if it were not for the rotating nozzle, then we can safely say that the Al-41F1 is cheaper than the NK-86 and much, much cheaper. The rotating nozzle, of course, costs more than the usual one, but I have no idea by how much. However, from memory I can say that the difference in price between engines with and without a rotating nozzle was not that dramatic (I once noted this fact for myself, comparing an American engine).
                        That's why I write that Al-41F1 costs less or the same as NK. You are tempted by false analogies without delving into the essence of the matter.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What you ignore is the huge mass and size for supersonic flight.

                        Another unclear thesis. According to you, the huge mass and dimensions of the "Lun" do not play a significant role in the price of the EP, but they do play a role in the price of the bomber. I will not judge what misconception of yours it is based on.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        titanium center section

                        Question. Why did you decide that it was particularly expensive? In the USSR, for example, I had great titanium ski poles. Light and very comfortable. One of the shovel in my father's garden was also titanium - it was indestructible. The use of titanium does not increase the cost of the aircraft at all. We had submarines with titanium hulls, by the way.
                        Do you understand? You are looking for differences and declaring them expensive to the detriment of planes/ships and cheap in favor of the ekranoplan without delving into the essence of the matter. It just seems that way to you, and that is enough for you.
                        For example, you were unable to establish the cost of production of the NK-86 and Al-41F1. If you had this fact, there would be no questions. But you don't have it, you only have your thoughts on this matter, and you didn't even bother to delve into the basics of engine building. And so it is with all your "proofs" that prove nothing.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        chassis for this monster

                        THAT'S IT!
                        Chassis! That's what the Tu-160 has. But the Lun doesn't have them, so it requires a dock wide enough to fit a light aircraft carrier. That is, a very, very expensive, custom-made structure.
                        You consider the payload and cost of Lun, but at the same time ignore the price it came at. And the lack of a chassis, of course, makes Lun much cheaper and increases its payload, but makes its operation extremely expensive.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It's very strange, then why did you take ONLY the mass as a basis for comparison? I actually cited the Raptor because it has the same mass, but you didn't like it because it's expensive.

                        I didn't like it because:
                        1) Raptor is a military ship, and it cannot be compared with a civilian one. I have already written this to you, but you ignore it. Again, most likely, due to ignorance. You simply do not understand how much more expensive everything is for the military. I am not talking about armor panels and armor-resistant glass, which Raptor has, but civilian ships do not have and do not need it. I am talking about all sorts of even banal things, like communications equipment, the requirements for which are many times higher for the military than for civilian ships (it must withstand such loads (explosions) and such temperature conditions that are not even close to being included in civilian analogs. And the same is true for everything on the military - every sneeze costs more, often several times more, or even orders of magnitude more. I am also talking about special devices, like the ramp in the bow of the Raptor for landing troops, which civilian ships also do not have.
                        2) Engines. Initially, there were imported Caterpillars and Rolls-Royces. This makes the cost of the domestic ship extremely high, which is why it makes no sense to compare it with an EP flying on domestic engines.
                        3) Price. I still couldn't find the cost of building "Raptors" online. So you appeal to "Raptor"... but how much does it actually cost?:))))) In reality, and not according to your judgments?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I'm amazed. What is it that it's on soft/semi-soft floats?

                        As far as I understand from the description, its normal mode of operation is takeoff/landing from water. But yes, I am ready to admit that here I could (and most likely) be mistaken
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        By the way, why not compare Orion with equivalent aviation? Or is it ugh,

                        This would be a great comparison, but it is impossible - we simply do not produce a light aircraft in the Russian Federation that could be compared with the Orion. I will note, however, that the An-2 beats it like a bull in terms of versatility of use - it can land on a dirt strip anywhere, while the EP is extremely limited in the areas of use, that is, the EP does not replace light aviation even theoretically. But the Il and the EP have been compared many times, and the comparison was not at all in favor of the EP.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Sorry, but I gave a completely correct example.

                        For the reasons stated above, the example is completely incorrect.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Of course, these are speculations, but they are based on an analysis of solutions used for aircraft of comparable mass and available information, including photos.

                        You didn't even bother to look up the basics of engine design, how are you supposed to navigate the equipment for producing ships and electric power plants?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Installing the most effective air defense system on small ships, on a ship with an obviously ineffective main weapon - this is obviously any solution except one related to stability.

                        Yes. I repeat once again, stability has absolutely nothing to do with it. The difference of several hundred kilograms cannot be explained by stability. Oh my god, it would be possible to take ballast there in approximately the same mass at the keel, and that's it, the question of stability is removed by itself, and it will not affect the speed - the difference there will be hundredths or even thousandths of a knot.
                      4. 0
                        11 May 2025 10: 46
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That’s the point, he refutes my thesis only in your reality, which you yourself have invented.

                        Okay, although you yourself suggested the example and yourself refused it. "A gentleman gave his word, and he took it back" - a classic.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Because I at least understand in general terms how the engine is constructed, while you are proceeding from personal fantasies about its design. Your logic is clear - you do not understand how afterburning is carried out and therefore it seems to you that since the AL-41F1 is much lighter than the NK-86, it is, of course, much more expensive
                        You are taking on too much for a person who does not see the difference between the engine of a supersonic fighter and a commercial airliner. The Al-41F1 must operate stably at altitudes and speeds significantly higher than those of the Il-86, and also be resistant to surge during intensive maneuvering, and the Su-35 is a super-maneuverable aircraft. But I don't understand anything about engines... And I did not write that it would be much more expensive. Although I already think so, because:
                        Turbojet engines and turbofan engines with afterburners are usually equipped with complex automation, including an automatically adjustable nozzle consisting of movable flaps that serve to adjust the nozzle cross-section in different flight modes, and an automatic air intake to regulate the air supply to the engine depending on the flight speed and engine operating mode.

                        Oh, neither of these is noticeable on the NK-86-7.


                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        engines with and without a rotating nozzle differed in price, not that dramatically (I once noted this fact for myself when comparing American engines)

                        Don't confuse a single-plane nozzle with an all-angle...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Another unclear thesis. According to you, the huge mass and dimensions of the "Lun" do not play a significant role in the price of the EP, but they do play a role in the price of the bomber. I will not judge what misconception of yours it is based on.

                        That is, for you it is all the same - a supersonic strategic bomber with an IS wing and a subsonic aircraft. The fact that you are not aware that for supersonic aircraft the requirements for geometry and skin accuracy are much stricter, the air intakes and other nuances are much more complex even compared to subsonic machines, these are trifles. But the fact that you do not understand how much the mechanism for changing the wing sweep increases the cost of the machine... In short, it is not for you to lecture me about aviation.
                        Well, and the "trifle" like the difference in complexity, and therefore in the cost of building a wide, short and thick wing, compared to a long, narrow and thin one - in such a situation, it seems that you will not get it in principle.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        One of the shovel in my father's garden was also made of titanium - it was indestructible.
                        The fact that in the late USSR even more quirks were possible is not an indicator. Although it would be interesting to look at the difference in price with an ordinary shovel. Because the simplest titanium rolled product is now FIVE times more expensive than aluminum. And titanium is also much more difficult to process.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We had submarines with titanium hulls, just in case.
                        Mmm, and they were called "goldfish" because they were cheap, I suppose?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Chassis! But Lun doesn't have them, so it requires a dock of a width that a light aircraft carrier can fit into. That is, a very, very expensive, custom-made structure.
                        Are you sure you understand maritime affairs?
                        Because it's okay not to know that the dock was built for the supposed Luna squad,
                        It's okay not to know that special docks are a common thing for specific ships/vessels, like the MPC PK,
                        It's okay not to know about the slipways, which are great for small ships, including EPs.
                        But to claim that a 400-ton dock is a "very, very expensive custom-made structure" that a light AV will fit into is a disgrace for a sailor. It will fit, but it will hang over the edges like sausage from Father Fyodor's mouth, and it will sink him like Mumu.
                        And all because the dock is ordinary, only with attached dock pontoons.
                        Maybe you will also argue that the dock was needed for EVERY EP, and it took it out to sea because the EP only went in a straight line?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The Raptor is a military ship and cannot be compared to a civilian one. I have already written this to you, but you ignore it.
                        Of course I ignore it.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I won't argue. But if there is an example of a 20-ton, 40-knot Russian civilian boat, where is it?

                        I even cynically ignore...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I still couldn't find the cost of building "Raptors" online. So you appeal to "Raptor"... but how much does it actually cost?:)))))
                        There is a foreign analogue. It does not use any supercomputers and radars, as in the "Burkas", so it can be assumed that its Russian analogue will be comparable in cost.
                        But the fact that you gave the example of a walking boat, ignoring EVERYTHING except the mass, I apologize...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I will note, however, that the An-2 beats it like a bull beats a sheep in terms of versatility of application.
                        A wonderful machine, only took 12 people with very conditional comfort. But for 20 people it is already a different technique... With different pilots and runway.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        while the EP is extremely limited in the areas of application, that is, the EP does not replace light aviation even theoretically.
                        Will river passenger shipping replace aviation? No, but it exists. And the EP is a wonderful means of complementing such shipping. With all-season operation and air speed.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But Il and EP have been compared many times, and the comparison was not at all in EP’s favor.
                        Which one? I don't remember any Ilovs for off-airfield servicing of riverine oil fields.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You didn't even bother to look up the basics of engine design, how are you supposed to navigate the equipment for producing ships and electric power plants?
                        Once again, you do not understand, or ignore quite simple, even fundamental things, it is not for you to lecture me on aviation matters. And in the marine business too, although not in everything. So if you claim super technologies for EP - be kind. But for now, welding, riveting and aluminum casting are all high-tech.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        For the reasons stated above, the example is completely incorrect.
                        You gave your examples based only on the number of engines, ignoring their type, thrust-to-weight ratio and mass - for Lun. And only on mass, ignoring everything in general - for Orion. It is not for you to write about correctness.
                        That is, 8 NK-87, giving comparable power-to-weight ratio as the Il-86 or Il-76, but we will be considering the Su-35, no, the Tu-160!



                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        A difference of several hundred kilograms cannot be explained by stability.

                        It's not just about radars for a long time now.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Installation the most effective means of air defense on small ships

                        Kortik - 13 tons, Pantsir-M - 7 tons, and on the aft superstructure. No, we can't do without ballast.
                      5. 0
                        11 May 2025 16: 36
                        Well, it's time to "sum up what has been said."
                        You have told many tales about the "Raptor", but in reality it turned out that you do not know the cost of the "Raptor". And all your calls to compare the cost of the Orion with the Raptor stem exclusively from your confidence that the "Raptor" is very expensive.
                        But I still managed to find the cost of the "Raptors":)))) The contract for 9 boats with delivery of three in 2016-2018 cost 1,38 billion rubles. We use the inflation calculator... And we get that in 2014 the "Raptor" cost about 116 million.
                        That is, a combat ship, armored, with weapons, with special communications, with an imported engine with a capacity of 2300 hp, with a ramp for landing troops, etc., etc., with a full displacement of 23 tons costs 116 million.
                        And the civilian Orion-20, which has none of the above, but the maximum takeoff weight is almost half as much (12 tons) - 150 million rubles.
                        It is quite obvious that a domestic civilian boat with the dimensions of the Orion, its speed and with domestic engines will cost at most 20-30 million rubles in 2014 prices - which is what I was talking about.
                        By engines
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The Al-41F1 must operate stably at altitudes and speeds significantly higher than those of the Il-86, and also be resistant to surge during intensive maneuvering, and the Su-35 is a super-maneuverable aircraft. But I don't understand anything about engines...

                        Here you are let down not by the lack of knowledge of the subject, but by banal logic - you figured out that sharp changes in the running modes are necessary for a fighter engine, but you did not realize that the same is required for a combat ekranoplan. However, you failed to get to the material part again - having come up with the idea that the aircraft ceiling is a parameter that has a huge impact on the engine design (which is incorrect), you overlooked the fact that for an ekranoplan the engine has to be adapted for flights at extremely low altitudes. Given that the latter is indeed a problem that increases the cost of the engine, including due to the aggressive environment (sea water).
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Although I already think so, because:
                        Turbofan engines and turbofan engines with afterburners are usually equipped with complex automation

                        only the specified automation is not at all more complicated than the engine control automation. But the design of the afterburner and turbine really differs radically.
                        In general, as I said earlier
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You are looking for differences and declaring them expensive to the detriment of aircraft/ships and cheap to the benefit of the ekranoplan without delving into the essence of the matter. It just seems that way to you, and that is enough for you.

                        The same applies to the nozzle, by the way.
                        Okay, questions of faith are sacred to me, I respect religion. You have the right to believe in an ekranoplan or a flying spaghetti monster (but the latter may have more admirers, see "pastafarianism")
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Because the simplest titanium rolled product is now FIVE times more expensive than aluminum.

                        And cardboard is probably even more expensive...
                        Firstly, Lun was not made of aluminum, but of an aluminum-magnesium alloy.
                        Secondly, having opened the Internet, we quickly find out that
                        Aluminum-magnesium alloy (rod) costs about 1700 rubles/kg. https://ochv.ru/magazin/product/alyuminij-amg5-prutok-diametr-50mm-litoj-splav-alyuminij-magnij
                        And titanium rod costs from 2-220 rubles/kg https://www.metotech.ru/titan-cena.htm?ysclid=majn2420w2ok40
                        Only in the plane titanium is used fragmentarily. But "Lun" had the ENTIRE body made of aluminum-magnesium alloy.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Mmm, and they were called "goldfish" because they were cheap, I suppose?

                        Oddly enough, but - because of high automation.
                        "The cost of titanium alloys was not the determining factor here: the cost of the Barracuda was close to the cost of the Bars (the unofficial name of Project 971, the official name is Shchuka-B)"
                        https://topwar.ru/193727-titanovyj-proryv-v-glubinu-i-v-buduschee.html?ysclid=majm8eej2b531585742
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        That is, for you it is all the same - a supersonic strategic bomber with an IS wing and a subsonic aircraft.

                        You have problems with logic again, and it looks like you have problems with memory as well.
                        The gist of my objection was that your calculation of cost "by the number of engines" is no good. It cannot be said that
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Even if we consider the fighter's engine to be equal to a not-so-advanced commercial engine for the Lun in price (which is obviously not the case), the Lun can cost as much as four Sukhoi - i.e. already cheaper than the Karakurt.

                        because the number of engines in itself does not say anything. And as an example I gave you the Tu-160, which in your logic (in terms of engines) should have cost many times less than in reality.
                        And there is no need to repeat like a mantra that the aircraft design is much more expensive than the ekranoplan. The joke is that due to the need for contact with sea water, the material for the Lun had to be very specific and expensive.
                        A simple example: in 200, the Be-2013, with an empty weight of 28 tons, cost approximately the same as the Su-35 (1,4 billion rubles)
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Because it's okay not to know that the dock was built

                        Listen, honestly, I'm already tired of writing. Can I sort out your mistakes with the doc some other time?:)))))))
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U

                        It's not just about radars for a long time now.

                        We are ONLY talking about the radar, and specifically about your statement.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But Lightning couldn't carry Mosquitoes and Positive at the same time, it wasn't stable enough. But Lun could. Check it out.
                      6. 0
                        12 May 2025 16: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You told a lot of fairy tales about the "Raptor", but in reality it turned out that you don't know the cost of the "Raptor".


                        Well, of course, I somehow dared to try to compare not only the mass, but also at least somehow the speed of the ship, at least three times so that there would be a difference... Why is this, it is not possible - it contradicts reality...

                        Fairy tales. Well, of course, the cost of the Swedish prototype turned out to be a fairy tale - 2 million dollars, a fairy tale, right? Suddenly, the cost of the Raptor turned out to be a fairy tale - the same two million... The same dollars.

                        The story doesn't end there, the engine costs no more than 70 thousand and even if the water jet costs the same (hahaha) then the price of the MO is no more than 280 thousand.

                        https://pricing.parts/ru/spare/caterpillar/c18acert/c-18-acert-motor

                        From, mother of their Federal Reserve, 2 dollars!!! Continue to cut the truth about the fact that armor, machine guns (not a fact that they are still included in the contract amount for the construction of the ship), a ramp, with a navigation radar on a boat with a dry weight of 000 (eight) tons, can cost 000 dollars.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And the civilian Orion-20, which has none of the above, but the maximum takeoff weight is almost half as much (12 tons) - 150 million rubles.


                        Oh, that weight. But Orion has wings, aircraft-type controls, an all-season chassis, and the ability to deliver 30 (thirty, yes) passengers 1500 km in 8 hours. And yes, the dry weight is at least 6 tons.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is quite obvious that a domestic civilian boat with the dimensions of the Orion, its speed and domestic engines
                        What kind of messenger of reality is this - with a speed of 120 knots, 800 miles and a passenger capacity of 30 hours, and for pennies?

                        Ah, here's another fairy tale - an engine, even two, which are not on the Orion: Walter M601. Of course, the Czech Republic is part of Russia - such is the harsh reality...

                        But after all this, I tell tales...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Here you are let down not by a lack of knowledge of the subject, but by banal logic - you figured out that abrupt changes in the running modes are necessary for a fighter engine, but you didn’t realize that the same is required for a combat ekranoplan.
                        Why, from the height of your enlightenment, aren't you aware that surge during a sharp change of modes has been generally overcome, but during maneuvering and flow stall in the air intake it is still very likely. And what kind of sharp changes of mode on a 380-ton machine, not to mention maneuvering on the verge of stalling... And I forgot, this is all reality. Damn it.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        However, you couldn't get into the material part again - having come up with the idea that the aircraft ceiling is a parameter that has a huge influence on the engine design (which is not true)
                        It's a fairy tale, of course, but surge can also occur when the calculated altitude is exceeded...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You have overlooked the fact that for an ekranoplan the engine has to be adapted for flights at extremely low altitudes.
                        Oh, it’s difficult, because the engines start up immediately at altitude, there are no takeoff modes, taxiing or minimally stable modes, it’s all fairy tales.

                        But fighters also need to fly at ultra-low altitudes and maneuver, both at ultra-low altitudes and at both altitudes the probability of getting a surge is much higher than with the Il-76s. So the Su-86's altitude range will be greater than the Il-XNUMX-XNUMX's, and this has an effect.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Moreover, the latter is indeed a problem that increases the cost of the engine, including due to the aggressive environment (sea water).
                        On the Moon, this was solved by using special paintwork and replacing the wiring when reworking the engines, possibly after a major overhaul. And also, turbines are used on small ships, and the air is not prepared in any way, certainly on ours. There is no mention of air preparation.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but the specified automation is no more complicated than the engine control automation.
                        The automation may not be complicated, but it exists, but the actuators of the support means, such as changing the nozzle cross-section and controlling the flow in the air intake, both during afterburner and during supersonic speed, do they have an insignificant cost, given your level of enlightenment? By the way, you ignored the air intake...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You look for differences and declare them expensive to the detriment of aircraft/ships and cheap in favor of the ekranoplan without delving into the essence of the issue.
                        It's simply amazing. Actually, I find differences that are NOT on the Moon, but for some reason you declare them "cheap in favor of the EP", how can they be at least some kind of price, if they do not exist in principle. The NK-87 engine does not have an afterburner, no variable-section nozzle, no air intake control of any kind. And you write something about logic. You don't have it either.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The funny thing is that due to the need for contact with sea water, the material for Lun had to be very specific and expensive.
                        Oh, is it mithril, or maybe adamantium? No, it's AMg61, aka 1561. What kind of miracle material is this?
                        And now, sixty years have passed since 1961, the year when the aluminum alloy AMg61 was created, and boats, ships, and liners are still being built from it today.

                        But I tell stories...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And cardboard is probably even more expensive...

                        Oh, more expensive.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Aluminum-magnesium alloy (rod) costs about 1700 rubles/kg. https://ochv.ru/magazin/product/alyuminij-amg5-prutok-diametr-50mm-litoj-splav-alyuminij-magnij

                        I don't know how you found this site, but the fact that you didn't bother to notice that these are sellers of ESPECIALLY PURE substances is half the trouble. The trouble is that you didn't bother to inquire about titanium... And it's there, not a surprise at all - from 8000 to 12000 rubles per kg... Something like that...
                        The second site is OK, even a bit expensive. It just doesn't have any aluminum alloys for comparison.
                        There is here. And again no surprises - 330 RUR/kg versus 1200/1600
                        https://metpromko.ru/list/list-titan

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Only in the plane titanium is used fragmentarily. But "Lun" had the ENTIRE body made of aluminum-magnesium alloy.
                        So the plane is mainly made of AlMag, only also with titanium. And also - almost ALL of our small ships are built with the widest use of this and similar alloys. Only the hull and some of the bulkheads are steel, and probably the foundations of the mechanisms, and even then not all of them. Let's measure the cost by weight, I don't mind, since the engines are not important.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And as an example, I gave you the Tu-160, which, according to your logic (based on the engines), should have cost many times less than in reality.
                        The engine brand is known, similar thrust engines or machines with similar thrust-to-weight ratios are known. But as an example you give... is it really the Il-86, or the Il-76, or the An-124? No. The Tu-160 with supersonic afterburning engines. But I have problems with logic...
                        I have a question: what logic did you use when mentioning the Su-35?
                      7. 0
                        12 May 2025 16: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        A simple example: in 200, the Be-2013, with an empty weight of 28 tons, cost approximately the same as the Su-35 (1,4 billion rubles)

                        What does this example show? That a heavier plane can be more expensive than a smaller one? Or maybe that the Su-35 engines are slightly more expensive than the not much weaker Be-200 engines? Just by one ton. Just kidding.
                        An amphibious boat with a full-fledged chassis, a full-fledged aircraft wing, and a decent, but compared to Lun, thrust-to-weight ratio is not the cheapest thing. True, at full takeoff weight it is weak in terms of payload, but oh well.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Listen, honestly, I'm already tired of writing. Can I sort out your mistakes with the doc some other time?:)))))))

                        If there is no burning truth there like with Raptor and superalloy, then please, in case I missed something.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We are ONLY talking about the radar, and specifically about your statement.
                        This statement lost its relevance a couple of posts ago. And I wrote to you about it.
                      8. 0
                        Yesterday, 19: 44
                        Sorry, I don't have time for further discussion. So I'll just skim the surface.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        https://pricing.parts/ru/spare/caterpillar/c18acert/c-18-acert-motor

                        Excellent:))) Instead of a marine engine with 1105 hp, you take an engine for special equipment with half the power. And it is unclear whether it is new, or restored, or used.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Ah, here's another fairy tale - an engine, even two, which are not on Orion: Walter M601.

                        Or one TVD-10B produced by Omsk Engine-Building. Moreover, since the price tag is usually given for the minimum configuration, we are talking specifically about a domestic engine.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Oh no, it's AMg61

                        Why do you think so?
                        But okay, fine, let's say. Let it be AMg61. Which is 1,5-3 times more expensive than shipbuilding steel, from which the Molniya's hull is made.
                        https://www.lsst.ru/sudostal/?ysclid=mamp0t8o4y588514133
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And also - practically ALL of our small ships are built with the widest use of this and similar alloys.

                        The widest application is superstructures, sometimes bulkheads, that is, the weight minimum
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I have a question: what logic did you use when mentioning the Su-35?

                        The fact that scaling by engines is unacceptable in cost assessment. Su-35 and Tu-160 are combat aircraft and have 4 engines of similar power, according to your method (it doesn't matter to you whether it's afterburner or not, the main thing is the ceiling, and the Tu-160 has it 4 km less than the Su). That is, according to your engines, it turns out that one Tu-160 should cost less than 4 Su-35, well, if by afterburner power, then less than 8 Su-35, because eight Su-35 need 8 main radars, and the Tu-160 doesn't need that much, etc., as you wrote.
                        However, in reality we see that the Tu-160 costs more than 10 Su-35s.
                        Accordingly, there is no need to scale an aircraft to an aircraft in terms of engines. And even more so, there is no need to scale an aircraft to an EP, as you do in your estimates of their comparative cost.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What does this example show? That a heavier plane can be more expensive than a smaller one?

                        That a non-military aircraft designed for landing on water costs comparable to a modern fighter. The Be-200 has an empty weight of 28 tons, the Su-35 is a third less.
                      9. 0
                        Today, 10: 59
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, in terms of engines, according to you, one Tu-160 should cost less than 4 Su-35s, well, if in terms of afterburner power, then less than 8 Su-35s,

                        Typo. Less than 2 and 4 Su-35s respectively.
                      10. 0
                        Today, 11: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Excellent:))) Instead of a marine engine with 1105 hp, you take an engine for special equipment with half the power. And it is unclear whether it is new, or restored, or used.

                        The C-18 range has a maximum power of 1130 hp and a marine version
                        https://yourmotor.ru/engines/caterpillar/dvigatel-c18/?ysclid=manbvnt0ti276361966
                        And whether it's new or used, I can't judge. Although yes, a marine one and one and a half times more powerful will be significantly more expensive, maybe a couple of hundred thousand, there are no prices.
                        https://www.rttp-cat.ru/
                        But the dollar has also fallen significantly since 14, by a third. However, the water jet is unlikely to be worth as much as the engine, which you tactfully failed to notice, but it's not news... So I think it will turn out that way.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Or one TVD-10B produced by Omsk Engine-Building. Moreover, since the price tag is usually given for the minimum configuration, we are talking specifically about a domestic engine.
                        That is, if I assume, then these are fairy tales, but if you, then the holy truth? So, it is Walter, and not one, but two! It's funny, you claim to know the aviation reality, but you believe that two engines can be replaced by one... And of the same power +-.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Why do you think so?

                        Well, not from those “sources” from which you got the “information” about “very specific and expensive”, but from publicly available and numerous ones.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But okay, fine, let's say. Let it be AMg61. Which is 1,5-3 times more expensive than shipbuilding steel, from which the Molniya's hull is made.

                        It is not news that it is more expensive, but even if the entire Molniya was made of all-steel, then with 360-390 tons versus 240-280 (I prefer the figure 264, exactly two Il-76TDs) it would cost either only twice as much, or even the same. wink
                        However, there is a surprise.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The widest application is superstructures, sometimes bulkheads, that is, the weight minimum
                        All the enclosures, part of the foundations, the entire superstructure and its filling and masts. And this is for the MPC type 1124, with the RK/MRK everything is even worse, with their massive PU and more developed superstructures. And how bad it is with the all-aluminum VP/PK ships, at least some competitors of Lun in speed, you can’t even imagine. Although they should have...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        (Whether you want afterburner or not - it's all the same, the main thing is the ceiling, and the Tu-160's is 4 km less than the Su's)
                        And it seems to you "pee in your eyes - everything is dew". Because I mentioned the altitude as ONE of the reasons for the occurrence of surge, which is normally excluded for the Il-76-86, but also normal for the Su-35. But you consistently ignore: flow control at the inlet, the afterburner, and the adjustable nozzle - apparently you do not consider them as factors increasing the cost of the engine. Whether they are there or not - it's all the same, pennies...


                        And you also allow yourself to be “forgetful” in presenting materials:
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        "The cost of titanium alloys was not the determining factor here: the cost of the Barracuda was close to the cost of the Bars"

                        Because
                        the hull cost a little more (special steel for submarine hulls is very expensive in itself), but on the Bars in a cheaper case was newer and more expensive our first digital hydroacoustic complex "Skat-3"


                        But for fun, the PS-90A with 14,5-16 tons at takeoff costs about 4 million dollars in 2005, and the NK-32-2 with 14 tons at maximum without afterburner - 12.5, the same millions, albeit for 21 years. And even with a very rough inflation adjustment - the NK is one and a half times more expensive. This is the price of having afterburner at supersonic speeds...
                        https://www.aviaport.ru/news/76228/?ysclid=manjw4tzg325059151
                        https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/12205195?ysclid=mank39yezr498778512

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That scaling by engines is unacceptable in cost estimation.
                        Why would that be? The Lun garland is one of the main complaints about the cost. But, unlike your Su-35 taken out of thin air, I not only calculated the number of engines, but also the maximum thrust, which is similar for their engines. Which, by the way, is provided by afterburner at maximum weight.
                        What did you use as a benchmark when appointing the Su-35? This is the second time I'm asking.
                        It is clear that by bringing up the Tu-160, you were guided by the desire to somehow cover up the stupidity with the Su-35, but where did it come from?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Accordingly, there is no need to scale the aircraft to the aircraft in terms of engines.
                        And what, what? You allow yourself to use only one parameter, or even do without it, look, boat, you dragged it to Orion only by weight, Su-35 is completely unclear based on what, and you forbid me something - justify. Thrust-to-weight ratio is one of the most important characteristics of an aircraft, even ships, if the power of one engine is not enough, the required number is installed. And the full thrust of Lun is approximately equal to 4 Su-35, so why can't they be counted by engines?

                        Cool, you are demonstrating ignoring the most important conditions and some kind of fairy tales, but at the same time, for some reason, I am the storyteller and "believer"...


                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That a non-military aircraft designed for landing on water costs comparable to a modern fighter. The Be-200 has an empty weight of 28 tons, the Su-35 is a third less.
                        But I see that the Su is equal to a heavier machine due to more complex engines, avionics, and resistance to supersonic speeds and overloads. Despite the fact that the Be is equipped with a full-fledged chassis, and is made using aviation technologies, and also has a device for collecting water into tanks at high speed. And it's funny to read about a "non-military aircraft".

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Sorry, I don't have time for further discussion. So I'll just skim the surface.

                        Yes, I won't see revelations based on the documents, justifications for the Su-35 as a standard for comparison, where the Orion analogue went, and an analysis of the reasons for the impossibility of using shipbuilding technologies in building the Lun for this very reason. It's a pity, but I wish you success!
                      11. 0
                        Today, 11: 47
                        It is not news that it is more expensive, but even if the entire Molniya was made of all-steel, then with 360-390 tons versus 240-280 (I prefer the figure 264, exactly two Il-76TDs) it would cost either only twice as much, or even the same.

                        Typo, three Il-76, two at maximum takeoff weight.
    3. -1
      7 May 2025 06: 11
      Quote: SVD68
      It has been discussed more than once. Ekranoplans are inferior to airplanes in every way.

      Ekranoplans. They are the ones that "fit" into the niche of airplanes - they fly far from the screen.
      Ekranoplans - no.
      1. -6
        7 May 2025 06: 28
        Airplanes are much more economical than ekranoplans.
        1. 0
          7 May 2025 06: 31
          So airplanes (modern ones) are much more economical than airplanes from the 70s.
          1. -4
            7 May 2025 06: 39
            I'm afraid this is a fundamental issue - the gain in lift of the "screen" is fundamentally inferior to the loss in overcoming greater air resistance.
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 06: 44
              Quote: SVD68
              I'm afraid this is a fundamental issue - the gain in lift of the "screen" is fundamentally inferior to the loss in overcoming greater air resistance.

              Anti-submarine ships have a primary patrol mode at altitudes of 150-300 meters. Where is the difference in resistance here? And if there was an analog of the MRK, then why can't there be an analog of the MPK on the screen?
            2. -1
              7 May 2025 06: 50
              There is no loss. Resistance is the area per velocity pressure. Well, and per resistance coefficient. Lift is also the area per velocity pressure. And per lift coefficient.
              The velocity pressure is proportional to the density.
              Density increased - area decreased.
              The ekranoplan does not need to climb to a high altitude and have a large wing to fly there. It is single-mode, that is, it flies in a constant density zone.
        2. 0
          7 May 2025 06: 40
          Quote: SVD68
          Airplanes are much more economical than ekranoplans.

          Yes? And how much will the plane save in five days of hovering over the sea?
          1. +2
            7 May 2025 09: 20
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Quote: SVD68
            Airplanes are much more economical than ekranoplans.

            Yes? And how much will the plane save in five days of hovering over the sea?

            The plane surveys a huge area during the flight. The ekranoplan in these five days in the sitting mode on the push only surveys an area the size of the push. Waiting for data from the plane
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 09: 30
              Quote: Tlauicol
              The plane surveys a huge area during one flight.

              Yes, it is specialized. But if its task is to keep 6 heavy anti-ship missiles ready, then no.
              Quote: Tlauicol
              During these five days, the ekranoplan, in the sitting mode on the push, only surveys an area the size of the push
              Why, with the detection range of surface targets of the Mineral radar system of 100-450 km, even statically, the EP will cover an area of ​​31400 to 636 sq. km. Like a small missile ship.
              1. -1
                7 May 2025 09: 39
                Is it going to spin around the anchor on its own for five days?
                And the tasks are bad?
                For him, an ekranoplan, one FPV from the shore or a boat is enough.
                How much will the plane save? Five days and it will save.
            2. +1
              7 May 2025 17: 46
              The plane surveys a huge area during one flight.
              The ekranoplan can carry a drone for reconnaissance, charging it with the sun
        3. +1
          7 May 2025 07: 20
          Quote: SVD68
          Airplanes are much more economical than ekranoplans.

          The thing is that aircraft are much lighter than combat EPs. But this is the price for seaworthiness, and therefore autonomy at sea. But we are talking specifically about combat aircraft. With civilian aircraft, everything can become much better, but average civilian EPs are very niche, here we must admit that airfield aircraft are more universal.
        4. 0
          7 May 2025 09: 47
          Airplanes are much more economical than ekranoplans.


          What are you saying? Let me ask, where did you get the firewood from?
          Did you and your girlfriends in the kitchen decide this based on purely aesthetic considerations? lol
          Because reality is different. For example, the Orlyonok ekranoplan. Its maximum takeoff weight is 75% of the Tu-95 aircraft.
          It is logical to assume that in order to be on par with the aforementioned aircraft in terms of efficiency, it would need the same thrust for cruising flight. That is, 75%, or three NK-12 engines.
          But he flew on one, at 25%, that is, he needed three times less.
          The booster engines were not running during cruise mode, in case you weren't aware.
          1. -4
            7 May 2025 10: 02
            And what, did it fly as fast, long and far as the Tu-95 with cargo?
            The power of the Orlyonok can be easily compared to the AN12. Which is lighter, farther, faster and 20 years younger. And it flies anywhere. Otherwise they are the same.
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 10: 06
              And what, did it fly as fast, long and far as the Tu-95 with cargo?
              The power of the Orlyonok can be easily compared to the AN12. Which is lighter, farther, faster and 20 years younger. And it flies anywhere. Otherwise they are the same.


              Have you heard anything about aerodynamics? About the cellar powers of flight? Or are you also guided solely by taste?
              1. -3
                7 May 2025 10: 17
                Here is the AN12 and the Orlyonok. The lifting capacity is the same, the power is the same. The AN12 flies further, faster and over any surface. Does your brilliant knowledge of aerodynamics make you choose the ekranoplan? Because it is cool. Or because the AN 12 is 20 years older?
                1. +1
                  7 May 2025 10: 38
                  Here is the AN12 and the Orlyonok. The lifting capacity is the same, the power is the same. The AN12 flies further, faster and over any surface. Does your brilliant knowledge of aerodynamics make you choose the ekranoplan? Because it is cool. Or because the AN 12 is 20 years older?


                  You choose based on how cool it is. You lack knowledge, so you compare an airplane that is more than twice as light, but has a greater total power in cruising mode.
                  And aerodynamics shows that the ground effect significantly reduces the required power for horizontal flight. Otherwise, no one would bother with these ground effect vehicles.
                  1. -2
                    7 May 2025 10: 43
                    Look what happens, our aerodynamic one: a plane of less weight, flies as much as a heavier one. And over any surface.
                    It's like a 100 kg uncle dragging a two-pood weight along a treadmill for a thousand meters. And next to him a 50 kg old man runs a 2 km cross-country race with the same weight. On rough terrain
                    1. +1
                      7 May 2025 11: 13
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      Here is an AN12 and Orlyonok. The lifting capacity is the same, the power is the same.

                      And why would 21 tons be the same as 28? Orlyonok's maximum is 28, 20 tons is the limit for a unit of equipment.

                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      Look what happens, our aerodynamic one: a plane of less weight, flies as much as a heavier one. And over any surface.
                      The only problem is where he will deliver it from and where he will deliver it to, from airfield to airfield, or from any water's edge to any water's edge.
                      1. -2
                        7 May 2025 11: 32
                        Even 29. Weight-to-carrying capacity ratio. Next to a 20-year-old plane.
                        The random water line thing is funny, thanks
                      2. -2
                        7 May 2025 11: 43
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        The random water line thing is funny, thanks
                        Why? Well, obviously not into the rocks, but the water's edge is accessible not even to the hovercraft, but to the landing high-speed craft, and no less accessible to the Orlyonok. And this is where strength is required, and not at all aviation strength.
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Even 29. Weight-to-carrying capacity ratio. Next to a 20-year-old plane.

                        And the strength gives an unfavorable ratio. However, in comparison with DKVP, Orlyonok has a very favorable ratio.
                        So, another comparison of a combat EP with an airplane is another comparison of warm with red.
                      3. -2
                        7 May 2025 11: 50
                        Yeah, and you can't compare Bradley with BMP3. Because it's like that.
                        Strength, boat contours, wing, tail unit - yes, this screen eats up a lot of things.
                      4. +1
                        7 May 2025 16: 40
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Yeah, and you can't compare Bradley with BMP3. Because it's like that.
                        Why not compare the BMP with the IFV?
                        But why compare a landing ship with a military transport aircraft, that’s a question for you.

                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Strength, boat contours, wing, tail unit - yes, this screen eats up a lot of things.

                        Well, it's a combat ship. Let's give up the ability to land on an unequipped coast, like a hovercraft, and the weight will immediately go down. Only then will it be necessary to compare it with flying boats, and not with an airfield-based aircraft, and with a lifting capacity of not 21, but 28 tons.
                      5. -2
                        7 May 2025 16: 57
                        I don't understand, do you consider the EP a combat ship or the VT an aircraft?
                      6. +2
                        7 May 2025 17: 23
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        I don't understand, do you consider the EP a combat ship or the VT an aircraft?

                        Orlyonok and Lun are warships. If you still haven't figured this out, it's no wonder you compare warm with red...
                      7. -3
                        7 May 2025 17: 29
                        And comparing the EP with a ship is this cold with blue? How can it be compared at all then? By tasks, perhaps.
                        Chase poachers in the Volga Delta? No. Pursue, ram, board a seiner in the ocean? No. Rescue people from a dry cargo ship in a storm? No. Landing force? Buagaagga. No. Deliver a watch to a lighthouse or drilling rig? No. Patrol the sea or the border? No
                        Intelligence? No.
                      8. +1
                        7 May 2025 17: 31
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Landing party? Boogaagga. No.

                        So you resolutely deny that Orlyonok was a landing ship?
                        Well, and the rest... So what prevents ekranoplans from doing all this, except for ramming, of course. That's where the madness lies - ramming a seiner, with weapons...
                        Not surprised though.
                      9. -2
                        7 May 2025 17: 42
                        Border guards regularly engage in this insanity. If not by ramming, then by ramming. From Kamchatka to Crimea.
                        Orlyonok was a landing craft. A cool dka. For show.
                      10. 0
                        7 May 2025 19: 35
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Border guards regularly engage in this insanity. If not by ramming, then by ramming. From Kamchatka to Crimea.

                        No fairy tales needed. More precisely, free retellings of rare episodes about intercepting ships of foreign countries.
                        Because the standard practice is warning shots fired in the direction of the offending vessel, followed by the landing of an inspection team, not from a border guard, but most often from a motorboat, often an inflatable one.

                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Orlyonok was a landing craft. A cool dka. For show.
                        So a combat boat is actually a ship. A considerable number of small landing craft on an air cushion were also riveted together for show?
                    2. -2
                      7 May 2025 11: 17
                      Look what happens, our aerodynamic one: a plane of less weight, flies as much as a heavier one. And over any surface.
                      It's like a 100 kg uncle dragging a two-pood weight along a treadmill for a thousand meters. And next to him a 50 kg old man runs a 2 km cross-country race with the same weight. On rough terrain


                      I just can't understand where some people get this desire to argue in areas where they have no understanding whatsoever? A thirst to demonstrate their stupidity?
                      So, An-12, with a maximum commercial load of 21 kg, only 000 km remain for fuel, which, with a consumption of 4000 kg/km, is enough for 2,9 km. And taking into account the start, taxiing and emergency remainder, then a maximum of 1300 km of range.
                      As for Orlyonok, it is an experimental machine and the weight return there is below the baseboard, since such a goal had not yet been set at that time for obvious reasons.
                      However, it carried 28000 kg of payload over a range of 1500 km using 12% less power than required.
                      1. -1
                        7 May 2025 11: 43
                        The practical range is 1500. The Orlyonok was even awaited by the refuellers on the other side of the Caspian Sea, at the training ground. Otherwise, until now, he was sunbathing in the fraternal republic
                      2. -1
                        7 May 2025 12: 02
                        The practical range is 1500. The Orlyonok was even awaited by the refuellers on the other side of the Caspian Sea, at the training ground. Otherwise, until now, he was sunbathing in the fraternal republic


                        I'll let you in on a great secret: the An-12 also needs to be refueled after a 1100 km flight with maximum commercial load. lol
                      3. -2
                        7 May 2025 12: 09
                        Aha Yes But why do we need such a landing EP at all? To fly one way? Or will the Turks refuel it?
                        Where are you going to transport it?
                      4. -2
                        7 May 2025 12: 22
                        Yeah, yeah But why the hell do you need such a landing EP? To fly one way? Or will the Turks refuel?
                        Where are you going to transport it?


                        It looks like you missed taking your pills.
                        Where will the An-12 fly with a load of 21 kg? The range is 000 km shorter there, also to the Turks for refueling? lol
                        However, if we consider that an empty Orlyonok weighs 100 kg, and the maximum takeoff weight is 000 kg, then with a load of 140 kg, there is still about 000 kg left for fuel. Which is enough for about 28 km.
                        This means that the stated 1 km is there and back with all adjustments.
                      5. -1
                        7 May 2025 12: 26
                        The AN 12 was created for transportation between airfields. The Orlyonok is for paratroopers. (By the way, the weight return is still less, even on the screen, no matter how you twist the numbers. And this is in comparison with the old plane).
                        So why build it?
                      6. -1
                        7 May 2025 12: 35
                        The AN 12 was designed for transportation between airfields.


                        Are you serious? And the An-12 is not designed for parachuting. Burn some more. lol laughing

                        Orlyonok for landing. (by the way, the weight recoil is still less, even on the screen, no matter how you twist the numbers. And this is in comparison with the old plane).


                        I repeat, this was only a prototype vehicle; it cannot be compared with a production one.
                        And where did I wind up the numbers? Maybe you can provide your calculations? lol
                      7. -1
                        7 May 2025 15: 47
                        For example, 28 tons. Where does the firewood come from? And the fuel consumption for Orlyonok. Where does it come from?

                        For an airplane, landing is a bonus. For Orlyonok, it's the main task.
                      8. +2
                        7 May 2025 17: 59
                        The landing for the plane is a bonus. For Orlyonok, the main task

                        An airfield is a necessity for an airplane, Orlyonok has an airfield for all unprepared water surfaces
                      9. 0
                        7 May 2025 18: 20
                        Quote: t7310
                        The landing for the plane is a bonus. For Orlyonok, the main task

                        An airfield is a necessity for an airplane, Orlyonok has an airfield for all unprepared water surfaces

                        Orlyonok airfield is a naval base. Even for ships the ocean is not a port
                      10. +1
                        7 May 2025 18: 42
                        However, ships/eclans can easily receive/deliver/refuel in the ocean, while airplanes are comparatively not easy, especially in the ocean.
                      11. 0
                        7 May 2025 19: 07
                        Quote: t7310
                        However, ships/eclans can easily receive/deliver/refuel in the ocean, while airplanes are comparatively not easy, especially in the ocean.

                        Ships, yes.
                      12. 0
                        8 May 2025 18: 47
                        What prevents eplans from accepting/delivering/refueling in the ocean?
                      13. 0
                        7 May 2025 18: 58
                        For example, 28 tons. Where does the firewood come from? And the fuel consumption for Orlyonok. Where does it come from?


                        So everything is from the Internet, where else? As I understand it, you have run out of "arguments"? lol

                        For an airplane, landing is a bonus. For Orlyonok, it's the main task.


                        What are you saying? Where did you get the data that parachuting is a bonus for the An-12? lol
                      14. -2
                        7 May 2025 19: 06
                        Be more specific, please. 20 tons from the same network, and from earlier sites.
                        Ps.
                        About fuel consumption also "from the network"?
                      15. 0
                        7 May 2025 19: 59
                        Be more specific, please. 20 tons from the same network, and from earlier sites.


                        Do you have any objections on the merits?

                        About fuel consumption also "from the network"?


                        The performance characteristics of the NK-12 engine are no secret. Google them and you will be happy. Although, you do not have a specialized education, for you it is like Chinese literacy. lol

                        Yes, you forgot to answer:

                        What are you saying? Where did you get the data that parachuting is a bonus for the An-12? Yes
                      16. 0
                        8 May 2025 05: 41
                        Since for me all this blah-blah and a reference to Google is Chinese, I ask once again, oh, sun-faced one, Orlyonok's fuel consumption, please!
                        Landing? Because that's not his main occupation. What percentage of cargo flights did it take up?
                      17. 0
                        8 May 2025 10: 31
                        Since for me all this blah-blah and a reference to Google is Chinese, I ask once again, oh, sun-faced one, Orlyonok's fuel consumption, please!


                        What problems? Here are the characteristics of the NK-12 engine, read and calculate if you have enough intelligence. lol

                        Landing? Because that's not his main occupation. What percentage of cargo flights did it take up?


                        It's all blah-blah and Chinese literacy. lol
                        So let's see what is said about this in the book "Instructions for the An-12 aircraft crew"
                        We open it on the 5th page and...

                        Congratulations, you've pooped yourself. Yes
                      18. 0
                        8 May 2025 10: 43
                        Yes, yes, the AN 12 primarily deals with landing. Not in our universe, though. Yes
                        So what's up with Orlyonok's fuel consumption? Either I couldn't read it, or you forgot to write it.
                      19. 0
                        8 May 2025 11: 31
                        Yes, yes, the AN 12 primarily deals with landing. Not in our universe, though.


                        So, you are contradicting the crew's instructions? What else can we talk about with you? lol hi
                      20. 0
                        8 May 2025 12: 11
                        No, I don't refute it. It says "aluminium", so it's aluminium. Practice refutes it - the AN12 is a truck first and foremost, the landing party is the twentieth.
                        You don't say. Just give the consumption for the eaglet.
                      21. 0
                        8 May 2025 13: 14
                        No, I don't refute it. It says "aluminium", so it's aluminium. Practice refutes it - the AN12 is a truck first and foremost, the landing party is the twentieth.


                        Sorry, but you were arguing passionately about the purpose. But in practice, no one forbids ekranoplans from transporting cargo.

                        You don't say. Just give the consumption for the eaglet.


                        You were given the initial data. Now do the calculations yourself. You consider yourself an expert. lol
                      22. -1
                        8 May 2025 13: 38
                        Let them carry it, what a pity. They've been trying for 80 years, but it's not working out for EP yet. Maybe we should wait a little longer. It's a promising device after all. Will 200 years be enough?

                        What do you mean, I even read with difficulty, you know. Write, don't keep me in suspense.
                      23. 0
                        8 May 2025 13: 49
                        Let them carry it, what a pity. They've been trying for 80 years, but it's not working out for EP yet. Maybe we should wait a little longer. It's a promising device after all. Will 200 years be enough?


                        No, it won't be enough. And it's not about ekranoplans. It's just that the Russian aviation industry is so wretched that it can't even create a replacement for the An-2.

                        What do you mean, I even read with difficulty, you know. Write, don't keep me in suspense.


                        I will definitely write. But let's keep to the order.
                        Yesterday you deigned to get into an argument with the following statement:

                        The power of the Orlyonok can be easily compared to the AN12. Which is lighter, farther, faster and 20 years younger. And it flies anywhere. Otherwise they are the same.


                        As soon as you present a justification in the form of calculations with reference to sources, I will write immediately. Yes
                      24. -1
                        8 May 2025 13: 53
                        What can you expect from me, a poor thing? And without any relevant education!?
                        I even read with difficulty. And what's stopping you, a smart person?
                      25. 0
                        8 May 2025 13: 55
                        What can you expect from me, a poor thing? And without any relevant education!?
                        I even read with difficulty. And what's stopping you, a smart person?


                        If so, then why are you getting into an argument?
                        So, there are no options: either confirm your statement or listen silently. Yes
                      26. -1
                        8 May 2025 13: 58
                        Listen to what? For the second day I've been dreaming of hearing about fuel consumption on the Orlyonok
                      27. 0
                        8 May 2025 14: 14
                        Listen to what? For the second day I've been dreaming of hearing about fuel consumption on the Orlyonok


                        However, you have already stated, so it is too late to pretend to be a simpleton:

                        The power of the Orlyonok can be easily compared to the AN12. Which is lighter, farther, faster and 20 years younger. And it flies anywhere. Otherwise they are the same.


                        So go ahead, prove it. I'm waiting for your calculations. The option that you will make unfounded statements, and everyone will prove everything to you with arguments, will not work. Yes
                      28. -1
                        8 May 2025 14: 27
                        Prove what? Comparison?
                        That the AN 12 is lighter? Flies over any surface? Older? Faster? GP 20 tons? Range? Power?
                        I don't expect anything from you anymore, don't worry.
                      29. 0
                        8 May 2025 14: 46
                        Prove what? Comparison?
                        That the AN 12 is lighter? Flies over any surface? Older? Faster? GP 20 tons? Range? Power?
                        I don't expect anything from you anymore, don't worry.


                        Why are you like a snake on a frying pan? lol
                        What to compare? Well, this.

                        The power of the Orlyonok can be easily compared to the AN12. Which is lighter, farther, faster and 20 years younger. And it flies anywhere. Otherwise they are the same.


                        So go ahead. Post calculations on the power and range of a comparable load. Learn to be responsible for your words. Yes
                      30. -1
                        8 May 2025 14: 38
                        Even earlier I asked: “And did it fly as fast, long and far as the Tu-95 with cargo?”
                        "Shall we take turns?" Or is this rule just for me?
                      31. 0
                        8 May 2025 15: 05
                        Even earlier I asked: “And did it fly as fast, long and far as the Tu-95 with cargo?”
                        "Shall we take turns?" Or is this rule just for me?


                        Here is your message in full.

                        And what, did it fly as fast, long and far as the Tu-95 with cargo?
                        The power of the Orlyonok can be easily compared to the AN12. Which is lighter, farther, faster and 20 years younger. And it flies anywhere. Otherwise they are the same.


                        Because as far as the Tu-95 is concerned, the answer is simple. Comparing aircraft, one of which consumes four times more power in cruise mode with a smaller payload, is incorrect.
                        Therefore, let's move on to your statement. Moreover, in the following message you develop it further:

                        Here is the AN12 and the Orlyonok. The lifting capacity is the same, the power is the same. The AN12 flies further, faster and over any surface.


                        Therefore, comparative data and calculations are in the studio. Yes
                      32. -1
                        8 May 2025 15: 12
                        Stop. Where are the calculations for the Orlyonok in comparison with the Tu 95?
                        Keep the order
                      33. 0
                        8 May 2025 15: 28
                        Stop. Where are the calculations for the Orlyonok in comparison with the Tu 95?
                        Keep the order


                        And you wipe your eyes. What did I say?

                        For example, the Orlyonok ekranoplan. Its maximum takeoff weight is 75% of the Tu-95 aircraft.
                        It is logical to assume that in order to be on par with the aforementioned aircraft in terms of efficiency, it would need the same thrust for cruising flight. That is, 75%, or three NK-12 engines.
                        But he flew on one, at 25%, that is, he needed three times less.


                        Did you have any objections to the substance of these figures? No.
                        So, let's move on to your statement.

                        Here is the AN12 and the Orlyonok. The lifting capacity is the same, the power is the same. The AN12 flies further, faster and over any surface.


                        Prove that they have the same power reserve, load capacity and range with maximum load.
                      34. 0
                        8 May 2025 15: 54
                        Is this an example of your calculation? And you demand specialized calculations from me? For me, a person without a specialized education, the comparison is 15 thousand and 4 times 4 thousand. 20 tons and 20 tons. 35 tons and a hundred tons. 350 km / h and 600 km / h. But you, a specialized specialist, demand that I get an education at the Faculty of Law to amuse your vanity, and what do you give me instead of calculations? Did you subtract three from four?
                        I asked you: did you fly the same distance, just as fast? What did you answer? Following the order.
                      35. 0
                        8 May 2025 16: 08
                        Is this an example of your calculation? And you demand specialized calculations from me? For me, a person without a specialized education, the comparison is 15 thousand and 4 times 4 thousand. 20 tons and 20 tons. 35 tons and a hundred tons. 350 km / h and 600 km / h. But you, a specialized specialist, demand that I get an education at the Faculty of Law to amuse your vanity, and what do you give me instead of calculations? Did you subtract three from four?
                        I asked you: did you fly the same distance, just as fast? What did you answer? Following the order.


                        I was talking about the required flight power, and that's all. And I provided evidence for that. Therefore, I have the right to ignore your question about further and faster, since it is not relevant.
                        But here you stated:
                        Here is the AN12 and the Orlyonok. The lifting capacity is the same, the power is the same. The AN12 flies further, faster and over any surface.


                        Now prove that they have the same power reserve, load capacity and range with maximum load.
                      36. -1
                        8 May 2025 16: 35
                        You ignored the question because it was inconvenient. Just like the question about the eaglet's fuel consumption.
                        Happy Holiday!
                      37. 0
                        8 May 2025 22: 29
                        You ignored the question because it was inconvenient.


                        What's inconvenient about it, that it's not on topic? lol

                        As well as about the eaglet's fuel consumption.


                        Have you looked at your own picture carefully?
                        The most load-lifting An-12BK.
                        The empty weight you indicated is 35 kg, which is correct.
                        The payload weight is 20 kg, that's also true.
                        Maximum takeoff weight is 61 kg, again correct.
                        Now a little math.
                        61 - 000 - 35 = 340.
                        That is, there is only 5 kg of kerosene, and it is impossible to make a full load of 660 kg. One thing, either cut the maximum load to 12 kg, or do not add fuel.
                        But that's not all the joy. From the 5 kg of meager reserves we subtract 660 kg of emergency reserves, which cannot be used up, and another 1500 kg that will be consumed during taxiing and takeoff. The total for the flight is 500 kg.
                        With a consumption per kilometer of 2,9 kg/km, this is enough for 1 km at a stretch, but not 200 km.
                        (If you are interested, I can send you scans of the An-12 crew instructions and the technical description of the An-12BK by email)
                        Next.
                        An-12BK lifts up to 20 kg of payload. Project 000 up to 904 kg.
                        The An-12BK take-off weight is 61 kg.
                        Ex. 904 140 000 kg.
                        By the power of the cruise engines.
                        An-12BK 4 x 4 250 hp total 17 hp.
                        Pr. 904 1 x 15 hp

                        As a result, with comparable range and a weaker power plant, the Pr. 904 carried a third more cargo than the An-12BK.
                        At the same time, if necessary, the Pr. 904 could switch to airplane mode with a ceiling of up to 3 meters.
                        And this is despite the disgusting weight recoil of the first samples.
                        If you take an interest, the problem with ekranoplans was that neither the Ministry of Aircraft Construction nor the Ministry of Shipbuilding wanted to include the production of new products in the plan and tried to push it onto each other.
                        Then came the collapse of the USSR and there was no time for ekranoplans. The Russian Federation can't even handle the production of aircraft.
                      38. -1
                        9 May 2025 04: 32
                        All these calculations also apply to Orlyonok. It will also fly less with a full load and take less fuel. No magic will happen.
                        Alekseev's daughter, Tatyana, a leading engineer at the design bureau, said that there was no such thing and could not have been.
                      39. 0
                        9 May 2025 23: 14
                        All these calculations also apply to Orlyonok. It will also fly less with a full load and take less fuel. No magic will happen.


                        That's what I'm talking about, 1500 km is the range with a load of 28 kg.

                        Alekseev's daughter, Tatyana, a leading engineer at the design bureau, said that there was no such thing and could not have been.


                        OBS, that is, one woman said. laughing Here is a photo of a flight outside the influence of the screen.



                        Most likely you misunderstood something. Airplane mode was a mandatory requirement. To be able to overcome land areas. True, this meant losing the efficiency of the screen field.
                      40. 0
                        10 May 2025 05: 13
                        [quote=vovochkarzhevsky][quote]

                        "1500 km, this is the range with a load of 28 kg."
                        OBS?

                        "There were ekranoplan projects, but we DID NOT BUILD them. "KM", "Orlyonok", "Lun" made FLIGHTS, that is, they could briefly rise above the surface to go around some obstacle. Not higher than 20-30 meters."
    4. -3
      7 May 2025 06: 33
      It has been discussed more than once. Ekranoplans are inferior to airplanes in every way.

      Right.
      Dead-end expensive useless crap. Lun is an example of that.
      And in the era of BECs... wink
      1. +3
        7 May 2025 06: 37
        Quote: Arzt
        Dead-end expensive useless crap. Lun is an example of that.

        And who recognized it as a dead-end branch? Perhaps the same admirals who commanded the Black Sea Fleet?
        And EP will leave BEK without batting an eye.
        1. -1
          7 May 2025 07: 08
          And who recognized it as a dead-end branch? Perhaps the same admirals who commanded the Black Sea Fleet?
          And EP will leave BEK without batting an eyelid

          Was it the admirals of Lun who recaptured it? I didn't know. Plus their karma.

          I can't even imagine where they would hide it now. laughing
          1. +9
            7 May 2025 07: 14
            Quote: Arzt
            Was it the admirals of Lun who recaptured it? I didn't know. Plus their karma.

            Yeah, and what a plus for them for abandoning the Yak-141, the small AWACS aircraft, for the failure of mine defense, for the collapse of anti-submarine defense, for the collapse of naval aviation. A real bow.
            A bow, right?
            1. +8
              7 May 2025 07: 23
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              for the failure of mine defense, for the collapse of anti-submarine defense, for the collapse of naval aviation
              For the closure of military schools...
              1. +10
                7 May 2025 07: 27
                Quote: Luminman
                For the closure of military schools...

                In general, the lower back will break from bowing, it would be easier to throw out two cubic meters of earth for such benefactors once...
            2. -1
              7 May 2025 08: 58
              . Yeah, and what a plus for them for abandoning the Yak-141, the small AWACS aircraft, for the failure with mine defense, for the collapse of anti-submarine defense, for the collapse of naval aviation. A real bow.
              A bow, right?

              What, did Admiral Baltin directly say that all this is not necessary?
              1. +1
                7 May 2025 09: 03
                Quote: Arzt
                What, did Admiral Baltin directly say that all this is not necessary?

                Where are his words about ekranoplans?
                1. -3
                  7 May 2025 09: 40
                  Where are his words about ekranoplans?

                  I don't know. You wrote this:

                  And who recognized it as a dead-end branch? Surely not those same ones admirals, what did the Black Sea Fleet command?
                  1. +3
                    7 May 2025 09: 50
                    Quote: Arzt
                    I don't know. You wrote this:

                    I see that you are using empty words to cover up the fact that the EP went down the drain along with many things that the fleet and the country needed. But for some reason the EP is a dead end, while the other things are not.
                    So who recognized EP as a dead end?
                    1. -5
                      7 May 2025 09: 57
                      I see that you are using empty words to cover up the fact that the EP went down the drain along with many things that the fleet and the country needed. But for some reason the EP is a dead end, while the other things are not.
                      So who recognized EP as a dead end?

                      No, it was you who blamed the whole collapse on the “stupid” admirals, while the main characters remained behind the scenes.

                      In essence, the ekranoplan is a low-flying (and therefore blind) slow-moving, lightly armed aircraft. It has no advantage over a regular aircraft in combat. A fat target.
                      This became clear already in the USSR, which is why they abandoned it. hi I don’t know who exactly, but I think the decision was made collectively.
                      1. +3
                        7 May 2025 10: 40
                        Quote: Arzt
                        In essence, the ekranoplan is a low-flying (and therefore blind) slow-moving, lightly armed aircraft. It has no advantage over a regular aircraft in combat. A fat target.

                        It looks like the EP was recognized as a dead end by people who don’t understand ANYTHING about simple maritime matters.
                        Because a heavy ekranoplan is a ship with a non-displacement main mode of movement. And it is a competitor to small combat ships. Moreover, with even a smaller tonnage, it carries the same amount of weapons and equipment, is approximately equal in range and seaworthiness and is fundamentally superior in speed.

                        Quote: Arzt
                        This became clear already in the USSR, which is why they abandoned it.
                        I don't think you're lying, but you're definitely mistaken, in good faith. Because before 91 there was no talk of stopping the programs, the flights were stopped only in 1992.

                        Quote: Arzt
                        I don’t know who exactly, but I think the decision was made collectively.
                        And over other programs too? See above.
                      2. 0
                        7 May 2025 10: 43
                        At the present stage, the Lun type ekranoplan can be equipped with its own air defense system. And a system close to a tank's APS.
                        One can dream of laser missile defense systems.
                        In fact, only air defense or explosive missiles can threaten it. And they are quite realistic to shoot down. And high combat stability appears. The dimensions allow using not 6 Moskits as strike weapons, but at least twice as many Onyxes/Tsirkons.
                        Increase the strike potential away from the shore along the external control center.
        2. -3
          7 May 2025 09: 40
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Quote: Arzt
          Dead-end expensive useless crap. Lun is an example of that.

          And who recognized it as a dead-end branch? Perhaps the same admirals who commanded the Black Sea Fleet?
          And EP will leave BEK without batting an eye.

          Set up the EP so they run away from the backs?
          1. +1
            7 May 2025 09: 53
            Quote: Tlauicol
            Set up the EP so they run away from the backs?

            Why did they build NK so many of them, so that they would stand against the wall?
            If a ship can ignore danger while doing its job, then it's at least a good ship.
            1. -6
              7 May 2025 09: 58
              How can he ignore the danger, standing at sea for five days? Or at least, leaving the base, entering it? And what tasks will he be able to perform now, in the Black Sea?
              I'm afraid the EP will last much less than the surface fleet. And in any conflict
              1. +2
                7 May 2025 10: 57
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Is it going to spin around the anchor on its own for five days?
                And the tasks are bad?

                Don't you know how a radar works? And what does an anchor have to do with it? It seems you imagine that an EP can only sink at full speed or only stand at anchor? That's not true, even under its own engines, it can both glide and go at low speed under one ton of minimum stable thrust. Not to mention the auxiliary ones, for which the generators were. And unlike an airplane, an EP can listen to the sea for all 5 days, no one will forbid it to lower the sonar antenna.

                Quote: Tlauicol
                For him, an ekranoplan, one FPV from the shore or a boat is enough.
                Wow, what kind of FPV can hit a couple of hundred km? And the boat, can it at least give 50-60 knots?

                Quote: Tlauicol
                How much will the plane save? Five days and it will save.
                It's funny, but what if the target only appears on the third day? Where's the plane, oh, there's no plane.

                Quote: Tlauicol
                How can he ignore the danger, standing at sea for five days? Or even leaving the base, entering it?
                Well, exactly, full speed ahead and full stop...

                Quote: Tlauicol
                And what tasks will it be able to perform now, in the Black Sea?
                Yes, the same as other MRKs - missile launches, just don't talk about Moskits, with normal development, UKSKs would have been deployed long ago, at least with Kalibr, at least with something. Oh yeah, MRKs are standing by the wall. Including because they can't quickly escape detection by satellite, for example.
                1. -2
                  7 May 2025 11: 29
                  Circular scanning radar on the Moon?
                  It would be funny if the target didn’t enter Lun’s field of view even on the fifth day.
                  1. 0
                    7 May 2025 11: 35
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    Circular scanning radar on the Moon?

                    Ahaha, to expose the intrigues without knowing ANYTHING about the object...
                    You should at least look at the picture of Lun and ask what kind of growths are on the keel?

                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    It would be funny if the target didn’t enter Lun’s field of view even on the fifth day.
                    Only the fuel didn't burn. But an airplane would have burned that fuel in five days of patrolling... And one that could lift at least one four-ton truck.
                    1. -1
                      7 May 2025 11: 47
                      Is it really Rlk Mineral? No.
                      A navigational trifle.

                      And the task was to not burn fuel or to survey the sea?
                      1. +2
                        7 May 2025 16: 31
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Is it really Rlk Mineral? No.
                        A navigational trifle.

                        Well, I'm not surprised in principle, the fact that you are not on good terms with the assessment of scales and sizes is clear for a long time. The sizes allow both Mineral to be installed, and Positive. Both at once, by the way.
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        And the task was to not burn fuel or to survey the sea?

                        And why did you assume that, having gone 400-450 km out to sea in an hour, the EP will not be able to maneuver at least another thousand km in these five days? At least under the turbines, at least under the auxiliary equipment.
                      2. -1
                        7 May 2025 16: 46
                        Because there was no Mineral.
                        He can't hang around in the sea, he answered above.
                      3. 0
                        7 May 2025 17: 21
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Because there was no Mineral.

                        Yes? And which of the four radio-transparent fairings did not contain Mineral? And which did not contain Positive? I will not post the photos on purpose, suffer until the second part of my article comes out...

                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        He can't hang around in the sea, he answered above.

                        Nonsense about three points of the wave, or what? laughing
              2. +2
                7 May 2025 11: 05
                Why the Black Sea???
                Such ships are needed in the TF and in the Atlantic.
      2. +3
        7 May 2025 06: 53
        Quote: Arzt

        Dead-end expensive unnecessary crap.

        Anything that modern Russia cannot produce in the required quantity is a dead end)
        Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, airborne combat vehicles, helicopters, attack aircraft - none of this is needed.
        Only the parquet generals surrounding the Supreme Command will lead us to victory...
        1. 0
          7 May 2025 07: 07
          Anything that modern Russia cannot produce in the required quantity is a dead end)
          Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, airborne combat vehicles, helicopters, attack aircraft - none of this is needed.
          Only the parquet generals surrounding the Supreme Command will lead us to victory.

          Don't worry about that - as long as the parquet ones are alive, tanks and other things will be produced. 3-4 of these SVOs are needed to get there, and even then...
          If only someone could try to tell Budyonny that horses are not needed... laughing
          1. +2
            7 May 2025 08: 23
            Quote: Arzt
            If only someone could try to tell Budyonny that horses are not needed...

            The irony is that horses were also useful, and specifically in cavalry units, especially in the Wehrmacht, and that Comrade Budyonny was no stranger to technical branches of the military.
            1. BAI
              +2
              7 May 2025 09: 00
              The irony is that horses also came in handy, and specifically in cavalry units, especially in the Wehrmacht,

              There were more horses in the Wehrmacht than in the Red Army. But they were used mainly as draft animals.
              1. +1
                7 May 2025 09: 02
                Quote: BAI
                There were more horses in the Wehrmacht than in the Red Army. But they were used mainly as draft animals.

                No, I'm talking specifically about the cavalry divisions of the Wehrmacht.
            2. -2
              7 May 2025 09: 01
              . The irony is that horses were also useful, and specifically in cavalry units, and in the Wehrmacht, and that Comrade Budyonny was no stranger to technical branches of the military.

              And it turns out they are still wow! wink
        2. -4
          7 May 2025 07: 34
          Quote: Vladimir-TTT
          Quote: Arzt

          Dead-end expensive unnecessary crap.

          Anything that modern Russia cannot produce in the required quantity is a dead end)
          Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, airborne combat vehicles, helicopters, attack aircraft - none of this is needed.
          Only the parquet generals surrounding the Supreme Command will lead us to victory...

          Ekranoplans were buried back in the USSR and not even later. Corrosion of fuselages and salt in engines were quite enough for this...
          1. +3
            7 May 2025 07: 39
            Quote: your1970
            Ekranoplans were buried back in the USSR and not even later. Corrosion of fuselages and salt in engines were quite enough for this...

            Not true. The EP programs were closed in the early 90s.
            And aluminum ships and vessels, and even those with gas and even aircraft turbines, are still being built.
            1. -4
              7 May 2025 08: 41
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Not true. The EP programs were closed in the early 90s.

              True. The problems started back in the 1970s and 80s, and by the 1990s they had become more acute.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              and even with gas and even aircraft turbines, they are still being built as they were.

              You difference between the engine inside ship and open to all You don't get it on the ekranoplan?!! fool
              1. +1
                7 May 2025 08: 52
                Quote: your1970
                True. The problems started back in the 1970s and 80s, and by the 1990s they had become more acute.

                It's not true, and it's obvious. Because Lun was launched only in 1986. What 70s? Don't confuse not even childhood illnesses, but accidents during field experiments, not even tests and operation.
                Quote: your1970
                Can't you see the difference between an engine inside a ship and one that's open to everything on an ekranoplan?!!
                Open to what? To the air? The engines on the Moon are significantly higher than on the same Be-200 or A-40. And the air in the ships' turbines is not cleaned of salt in any way, certainly not on domestic ones. So there is no big difference.
                1. -4
                  7 May 2025 09: 23
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Lun

                  And where does specific instance? the conversation is about the fundamental problems of ekranoplans.
                  1. +1
                    7 May 2025 09: 33
                    Quote: your1970
                    What does this specific example have to do with it? We are talking about the fundamental problems of ekranoplans.

                    Pff, that's something. Because Lun itself is already a fully-fledged combat ship, albeit an experimental one. For example.
                    And so you can pull anything you want into it.
    5. +1
      7 May 2025 09: 06
      It has been discussed more than once. Ekranoplans are not airplanes. And so, all other things being equal, ekranoplans have a greater range and carrying capacity.
  6. +1
    7 May 2025 07: 40
    Of course, I am not an ekranoplane builder and have never built a ship:

    But I would play with the following design under the code "skeg catamaran-wing":

    1. We have two displacement hulls of the seaplane type with internal absolutely flat and parallel sides.

    2. We connect them along the entire length with a jumper (from above) in the form of a wing with slats and flaps along the entire width. (That is, we thus obtain a relatively long central wing connecting the two hulls of the catamaran)

    3. The drives for the slats and flaps of this central wing are placed in the catamaran hulls (theoretically, this should reduce the cantilever loads on the joints of the wing elements with the slats and flaps)

    4. We install many propellers (possibly fan type) on the slats (possibly impellers with the possibility of some regulation of the distribution of the output flow downwards or to the sides).

    To pump air under the central wing in a "skeg" mode with the slats raised (for which a lower flow distribution by the impeller would be useful).

    Or to increase the flow rate (lift) of the central wing with horizontal slats in the high-speed horizontal motion mode (for which a more horizontal flow distribution by the impeller would be useful)

    5. Hydrofoils may not be superfluous (especially in the form of lower crossbars between the hulls that can be moved up and down) and water propellers will definitely not be superfluous (especially if hydrofoils are lowered below the hulls)

    6. Lateral wings "airplane-style" and for airplane mode (i.e. relatively long transversely and narrow longitudinally) possibly with multiple propellers/impellers. (Possibly telescopic, retractable into the central wing if without propellers to reduce parking width and damage from waves)

    7. Each body has a tail with a cruise propeller (possibly a fan type), connected to the other tail by means of a rear wing (possibly a fairing for radar antennas).
    1. +1
      7 May 2025 07: 46
      It's somehow very complicated. Moreover, something similar was implemented on heavy Soviet EPs in the form of blowing part of the thrust under the wing in takeoff and landing mode.
      1. +1
        7 May 2025 08: 18
        Only the one who walks the road can master it.

        I'm not insisting, I'm talking about how I would experiment from the depths of my own amateurism.

        I'm sure (from the height of my own modesty) that someone has already thought of something similar.

        Personally, I like this model as a prototype of a hull without add-ons.


        P.S.
        Oh, what a pity that most likely it will not be possible to hear Igor's authoritative expert opinion on this issue.
        1. 0
          7 May 2025 08: 21
          Judging by the gun and radar, it's something domestic, can you provide a link?
          1. 0
            7 May 2025 08: 32
            As I understand it, this is a model from experiments on a skeg "small frigate" (Project developments based on them confirm: today we can create ships with a displacement of about 1000 tons with a maximum speed of 100 or more knots)

            https://flotprom.ru/publications/history/exkurs/sidewallhovercrafts/

            I couldn't find any more information.

            In turn, if you deem it necessary, send us your results of research on this model.

            Thank you.

            P.S.
            Again, we need to decide what we want more
            * Seaplane with shielding capability
            * High-speed hydroski ship with shielding capability
            * Skeg high-speed ship with the ability to screen and "jump" over shallows / ice hummocks / storms
            * Or what I personally find interesting
            Super-heavy-duty ekranoplan with multicopter capabilities.
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 08: 53
              Today we can build ships with a displacement of about 1000 tons and a maximum speed of 100 knots or more

              We can, but we won't. Such large ekranoplans turned out to be practically unmaneuverable, since turns at such speed require the corresponding roll like an airplane, and the water is close, there is no support on the air due to the lack of wings of the required size and all this speed is lost during maneuvering. Therefore, the creators of this ekranoplan made the hybrid more towards the airplane
              1. +1
                7 May 2025 09: 02
                Quote: Konnick
                Today we can build ships with a displacement of about 1000 tons and a maximum speed of 100 knots or more

                We can, but we won't. Such large ekranoplans turned out to be practically unmaneuverable, since turns at such speed require the corresponding roll like an airplane, and the water is close, there is no support on the air due to the lack of wings of the required size and all this speed is lost during maneuvering. Therefore, the creators of this ekranoplan made the hybrid more towards the airplane


                Most likely, this is the case, but it is possible (not necessarily necessary) to at least play around with hydrofoils and "hydrotails" (they are also rudders) in calculations, and the central wing itself can also have complex mechanics and a decent width, and the side wings (if they are needed at all) are needed only for airplane mode.

                Well, in general, this is again a question: what are we building and with what characteristics?
              2. 0
                12 May 2025 05: 40
                Quote: Konnick
                and the water is close, there is no support for the air due to the lack of wings of the required size and all this speed is lost during maneuvering


                By the way, the presence of water close by, with a certain amount of skill (programmable autopilot) and the strength of the side wing structure and the presence of downward-curved wing tips, theoretically turns them (wings with downward-curved tips) into highly effective (compared to air) "hooks" on the water when maneuvering (see gymnasts on horizontal bars and "wild babesians in the forests of Brazil")
          2. 0
            7 May 2025 08: 39
            https://dzen.ru/a/Y5chvJE08HOHVRUt
            1. +1
              7 May 2025 08: 42
              Quote: realist
              https://dzen.ru/a/Y5chvJE08HOHVRUt

              I know about Sivuchi, I was interested in the picture from Inzh Mekha. But thanks anyway.
              1. 0
                7 May 2025 08: 49
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Quote: realist
                https://dzen.ru/a/Y5chvJE08HOHVRUt

                I know about Sivuchi, I was interested in the picture from Inzh Mekha. But thanks anyway.


                I didn't draw this picture, and I haven't drawn anything yet according to the seven-point T.O., written on my knee (my own), drinking beer (reading this article)

                Maybe I'll draw it eventually.
                the question is as always "what?"
              2. +1
                Yesterday, 08: 24
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                , it was interesting specifically about the picture from Inzh Mekha.


                I think that the final picture from Inzh Mekha will look like a hybrid of the VVA-14 and the above model of the skeg "small bustard", namely:

                Trimaran with main displacement side hulls and
                central narrow body for mechanisms for separate rotation of the left and right slats and flaps of the central relatively wide and long wing (over the entire length of the bodies)

                With front and rear propellers/impellers mounted on the center wing, ideally attached to slats and flaps and capable of directing thrust vertically downwards (by rotating the slats and flaps) ideally thus providing a multi-rotor mode (maybe not a CVV?). Possibly with folding blades if separate cruise engines are effective.

                With retractable hydrofoils with water jets.

                The presence or absence of side wings depends on the desires for movement in airplane mode.
                1. 0
                  Yesterday, 08: 35
                  Quote: Eng Mech
                  ideally thus providing a multicopter mode

                  Hello! First of all, explain to yourself why a sea vessel/aircraft needs the ability to take off/land vertically if it is not amphibious, and for landing outside an airfield? It may be good as an anti-submarine aircraft, but it will certainly have less load-carrying capacity and be significantly more expensive than a similar EP, to which this is one of the main complaints.
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 19: 14
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Quote: Eng Mech
                    ideally thus providing a multicopter mode

                    , why does a sea vessel/aircraft need the ability to take off/land vertically if it is not amphibious, and especially for landing outside an airfield?


                    In this case, this flying machine (currently NyzEnko NyzEnko) will definitely not need landing gear to get to the shore.
                    Plus, it can splash down and land on any patch of ground (or dramatically reduce the required takeoff run - after all, we are talking about a high-speed, heavy vehicle)

                    To eliminate the permanent anti-efficiency effect of the inconstantly used GDP option, I might want to have optionally:
                    1. Different sets of slats and flaps (for example, and excuse the expressions, unpropelled, medium propelled, heavily propelled = for VVP) installed optionally / mission-specific.
                    2. Perhaps an interesting solution would be a tandem with some optionally dockable cargo UAV and undockable after launch. This UAV can perform some function of an individual launch catapult, and other cargo and combat functions inherent to UAVs.

                    Again the question: "what are we building more of and from which vehicle?":
                    1. From a skeg high-speed multihull ship
                    2. From a hydrofoil ship
                    3. From EkranoPlan itself
                    4. From EkranoLeta
                    5. from a seaplane
                    6. From KVP

                    By the way, is there any information or feelings on the topics:
                    1. A diamond-shaped wing on a single-hull or multi-hull vessel (American small ekranoplans with a reverse delta shape can be conventionally considered as a semi-diamond on a trimaran)
                    2. The ratio of the maximum height of the screen to the transverse dimension and to the longitudinal dimension of the wing.
                    1. 0
                      Yesterday, 19: 30
                      Quote: Ing Mech

                      Again the question: "what are we building more of and from which vehicle?":
                      1. From a skeg high-speed multihull ship
                      2. From a hydrofoil ship
                      3. From EkranoPlan itself
                      4. From EkranoLeta
                      5. from a seaplane
                      6. From KVP.


                      By the way, here is a pretty cool sketch of the prototype
                      1. 0
                        Today, 16: 14
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        Plus, it can splash down and land on any patch of ground (or dramatically reduce the required takeoff run - after all, we are talking about a high-speed, heavy vehicle)
                        Что вижу я - разделение двигателей на подъёмные и маршевые, плюс дополнительный вес от элементов для формирования подушки. Это терпимо для амфибийного экраноплана, хотя Орлёнок (неважно, был ли он экранолётом или ЭП) неплохо, как минимум на уровне СВП, обходился без подушки, только довольно примитивным шасси и подъёмно-маршевыми двигателями. Однако уже для самолёта СВВП подушка совершенно излишня.

                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        Разные наборы предкрылков и закрылков (например и извините за выражения непропеллированые, среднепропеллированные, сильноеропеллированные = для ввп) устанавливемые опциональное / миссионно.
                        Не уверен что понимаю этот термин. Но если я правильно понимаю, то не проще ли устанавливать выдвижные предкрылки и закрылки, просто выдвигать их на нужные углы? А то ведь обычное дело, когда что то "модульное" либо не завезли, либо продублировали, либо завезли не туда, либо погнули. Это не считая ценника что на модули, что на хранение.
                        Если же нужен просто боевой корабль, то конфигурация "Луня" лично мне представляется практически идеальной. Подъёмно-маршевые двигатели загоняют воздух под крыло, где он удерживается закрылками и поплавками, чем не просто сокращают разбег как таковой, а ещё и сильно снижают воздействие волны на корпус ЭП, значительно повышая мореходность по взлёту посадке.
                        При этом обходясь без дополнительных утяжеляющих и удорожающих юбок, баллонетов, обтекателей и направляющих каналов подъёмных двигателей.

                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        By the way, here is a pretty cool sketch of the prototype

                        Явно амфибийный аппарат - не скеговый.
                        Можно ссылочку на страничку, не припоминаю такой. Заранее спасибо! hi
          3. 0
            7 May 2025 08: 41
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Малые_десантные_корабли_на_воздушной_подушке_проекта_12321
          4. 0
            7 May 2025 08: 42
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubr-class_LCAC
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 08: 44
              Quote: realist
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zubr-class_LCAC

              And this is pure VP...
              1. 0
                7 May 2025 09: 03
                Yes, the air cushion is visible from the nose and sides.
    2. 0
      7 May 2025 08: 37
      Description of the skeg-type hovercraft is good, but in my opinion the Russian army already has something like this? And they are very uneconomical.
      1. 0
        7 May 2025 08: 55
        Quote: realist
        Description of the skeg-type hovercraft is good, but in my opinion the Russian army already has something like this? And they are very uneconomical.


        I do not argue knowing about this (the presence of skeg ships)

        But this (from the depths of my amateurism) is more of a description of an ekranoplan (a type of seaplane) using skeg ship solutions.

        If you like.

        Again, I would not give a definition to my "technical specifications" because this is too general a description for playing with combinations of different types of vehicles.
        1. 0
          7 May 2025 09: 01
          the fundamental difference is that an airplane/ekranoplan creates lift due to movement, while an air cushion (of any type) is created due to the operation of air blowers. and this is what makes movement on an air cushion significantly less economical than flight
          1. 0
            7 May 2025 09: 10
            Quote: realist
            the fundamental difference is that an airplane/ekranoplan creates lift due to movement, while an air cushion (of any type) is created due to the operation of air blowers

            The screen is a dynamic type air cushion, and the air cushion with superchargers is static
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 09: 18
              yes, and for the screen to work you need to pick up speed!
          2. 0
            7 May 2025 09: 11
            Quote: realist
            the fundamental difference is that an airplane/ekranoplan creates lift due to movement, while an air cushion (of any type) is created due to the operation of air blowers. and this is what makes movement on an air cushion significantly less economical than flight


            Yes, of course, but you forget that you are talking about different vehicles that are designed and more or less effective for solving their highly specialized tasks.

            A seaplane is an aircraft with a certain range of specific load-carrying capacity and seaworthiness.

            The ekranoplan is an aircraft with a different range of load-carrying capacity and seaworthiness.

            The KVP is the third type of amphibian.

            Talking about efficiency is pointless without describing the task being solved and the conditions for its implementation
            1. 0
              7 May 2025 09: 20
              Purpose and efficiency always come down to economics. The most economical way to travel on land is a bicycle, but for various reasons not everyone rides it everywhere!
              Unfortunately, now is the time when even the military considers the economy!
              1. 0
                7 May 2025 09: 28
                Quote: realist
                Purpose and efficiency always come down to economics. The most economical way to travel on land is a bicycle, but for various reasons not everyone rides it everywhere!



                Almost sacred words (which fall under the remarks I made about the conventionality of efficiency, i.e. those who do not ride bicycles are sure (possibly having some physical injuries to the musculoskeletal system) of the inefficiency of this method of transportation, including, for example, at minus 30 on fresh snow "up to the knee" or for overcoming water obstacles).

                We’ll drink for this!
                1. +1
                  7 May 2025 09: 34
                  Amen! That is, hurray! People ride bikes where the climate allows, but in our area, in winter, at minus 50, and in summer, at pole 40, it is not very comfortable to ride a bike. We have to ride in a car with climate control! Armies around the world live in the current reality and count money, everyone, including the richest.
                  1. 0
                    7 May 2025 10: 04
                    Quote: realist
                    Amen! That is, hurray! People ride bikes where the climate allows, but in our area, in winter, at minus 50, and in summer, at pole 40, it is not very comfortable to ride a bike. We have to ride in a car with climate control! Armies around the world live in the current reality and count money, everyone, including the richest.


                    Money is information about obligations (in the broad sense of the word). It almost always very conditionally reflects "efficiency".

                    Focusing on money in efficiency calculations can lead to self-deception and self-delusion.

                    Money (non-cash) can be created and destroyed in any quantity by pressing a button on a computer.

                    We are distinguished from primitive man by the presence of more advanced technologies (including automation, robotics, mechanization), which allow us to solve the same problems or solve problems that were previously unsolvable at the previous technological level with less labor input (including in the form of muscular energy over a certain period of time).

                    Well, actually, you have already agreed with the thesis that a bicycle (and any means of transport) is effective and possible only for solving its highly specialized tasks in a fairly narrow range of conditions.

                    I apologize for the unclear text.
                    1. 0
                      7 May 2025 10: 39
                      The text is quite clear. It is unclear why the Americans took on the solution of a long-forgotten problem.
                      1. 0
                        7 May 2025 10: 48
                        Quote: realist
                        The text is quite clear. It is unclear why the Americans took on the solution of a long-forgotten problem.


                        They need (according to the new concept of using the KMP) to preemptively capture many islands in the western Pacific Ocean (where there is no airstrip or other transport infrastructure on each runway), land small detachments there (ideally just robotic weapons stations) with long-range weapons (the Himars type, which cannot be classified as light) and supply them.

                        This is the problem they are solving, including (but not exclusively) through R&D in the form of the devices mentioned in the article.
                      2. +1
                        7 May 2025 10: 52
                        They're smoking something wrong, the delivery of heavy weapons requires large delivery vehicles. And you have to approach the unequipped shore very carefully. Definitely not on a Skeg-type hovercraft......
                      3. 0
                        7 May 2025 11: 14
                        Quote: realist
                        They're smoking something wrong, the delivery of heavy weapons requires large delivery vehicles. And you have to approach the unequipped shore very carefully. Definitely not on a Skeg-type hovercraft......

                        KMP has placed an industry request for the creation of a cargo UAV with a lifting capacity of 35 tons, if I am not mistaken

                        In the described examples of the twin-fuselage type, the performance characteristics seem to be around 100t, if I'm not mistaken.

                        This may be an intermediate stage in the creation of a multicopter (as evidenced by the numerous propellers)

                        It is quite possible to approach the shore in displacement mode.

                        Life will make adjustments.
                      4. 0
                        7 May 2025 12: 40
                        We'll see, wonderful miracles...
                      5. +1
                        7 May 2025 13: 01
                        Let's say he came, but what next?
                        It's not that easy to pull it ashore
                        (for regular use, some kind of concrete beach would have to be made),
                        there is no way to unload at the pier.
                        It is very inconvenient to unload on water, especially if the cargo is large.
                      6. +1
                        8 May 2025 06: 17
                        Quote: Alexey Kolikov
                        Let's say he came, but what next?
                        It's not that easy to pull it ashore
                        (for regular use, some kind of concrete beach would have to be made),
                        there is no way to unload at the pier.
                        It is very inconvenient to unload on water, especially if the cargo is large.


                        According to the DARPA video

                        It means a retractable ramp (like on tank landing boats)
                        Again, an ekranoplan (not a seaplane in its pure form) implies a more durable body and thicker-walled metal in the skin.

                        In general, there may be options if

                        to abandon the stereotype that the ekranoplan is such a worthless, stupid plane and

                        accept the stereotype that the ekranoplan in this version (not necessarily as in cartoons and our picture) is a super-fast landing craft (skeg type, but with a dynamic air cushion at cruising speed), capable of not reducing speed in relatively strong waves.

                        https://newatlas.com/aircraft/darpa-liberty-lifter-ground-effect/?itm_source=newatlas&itm_medium=article-body
                      7. 0
                        12 May 2025 15: 52
                        Yes, I don’t argue, it can probably be used as a landing craft.
                        But this won't work for regular cargo transportation. An unprotected beach will quickly become impassable.
                        And if you need to strengthen it, it’s easier to build a normal airfield.
                        It turns out that the ekranoplan is a very niche vehicle.
                      8. 0
                        Yesterday, 01: 31
                        Quote: Alexey Kolikov
                        An unprotected beach will quickly become impassable.
                        And if you need to strengthen it, it’s easier to build a normal airfield.
                        It turns out that the ekranoplan is a very niche vehicle.


                        Every vehicle is niche to some extent.

                        As far as I understand (the current main task of the CMP is to contain and prevent China and some other God-saved countries from freely entering the Pacific Ocean):

                        1. EkranoPlanoLety is an unexpected rapid capture of islands (including those on which it is highly likely extremely difficult to build any strips)
                        2. Supply of the landing force
                        2.1. UAV with a lifting capacity of 35 tons
                        2.2. Small/Medium landing ships of the tank landing type
                        3. Strengthening the bank by rolling out a special coating is not a big technological problem.

                        Something like that.

                        The choice of vehicles depends very much on the specific problem being solved and the constraints involved.
                      9. +1
                        7 May 2025 13: 03
                        and when it hangs out near the shore, it will turn into an excellent target.
                        The ship's survivability is nowhere near as good
                      10. 0
                        8 May 2025 18: 54
                        But he won't wait for the arrival, he'll quickly unload and quickly leave.
                      11. 0
                        9 May 2025 07: 18
                        Quote: Alexey Kolikov
                        The ship's survivability is nowhere near as good

                        And the ship has no speed when approaching and departing. And accordingly the ship will catch up much easier, even before loading.
  7. BAI
    +1
    7 May 2025 08: 57
    The photos do not show ekranoplans (except for the Soviet ones), but ordinary seaplanes based on the Catalina
    1. 0
      7 May 2025 10: 21
      They see it that way. They made up a passenger one. They are testing a smaller model, an electric one.
      [media = https: //vk.com/video-6054817_456240899]
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. 0
    7 May 2025 11: 03
    Complete crap.
    And the confusion in the photo of the ekranoplan/amphibious aircraft only confirms it.
    And now even AI can draw a model on a computer...
    1. 0
      7 May 2025 23: 37
      And the confusion in the photo of the ekranoplan/amphibious aircraft only confirms it.

      It seems there is a concept of an aircraft that can use the screen effect for economy and at the same time be able to fly outside the screen, "like an airplane", at a fairly high altitude. Apparently, they went this way.
      1. 0
        8 May 2025 09: 02
        There is everything, I read more detailed articles here once and searched on the Internet.
        but ekrano-flyers, like -planes, - no one really produces in large quantities. There are small passenger models, and that's it.
        Even fire-fighting and rescue amphibians are the usual classic aviation developments.
  10. +1
    7 May 2025 11: 12
    Maybe I'm mixing something up, but a high-wing aircraft is not very suitable as an ekranoplan. Anyone in the know, please explain.
  11. +3
    7 May 2025 12: 39
    The term "wing in ground" (WIG) does not exist in nature. WIG in English is an abbreviation of the term "Wing-In-Ground Effect". This refers to a type of aircraft that uses the ground effect to fly at low altitude over the surface of water or land.
  12. +1
    7 May 2025 12: 46
    How to load and unload it is the problem.
    There is a convenient pier for ships, and it is easy to maneuver in the port.
    You can't really get this one into the port. And even if it's there, what next?
    Drive boats to him? Drag him to the shore?

    For airplanes, an airfield can be made at any point.
    And the ekranoplan will not be able to enter the airfield normally.
    Or we will have to give it aircraft properties, but then it will be worse as an ekranoplan.
    It turns out that some special infrastructure is needed, and it’s very expensive.
    1. 0
      8 May 2025 19: 03
      Aparel in the nose like landing ships
  13. 0
    7 May 2025 12: 59
    Oh, I seriously doubt that our people are now capable of reviving ekranoplans, well, perhaps through reverse engineering of the same Lun....
  14. 0
    7 May 2025 14: 34
    BECs are very good at shooting down planes, as recent events have shown.
    1. 0
      7 May 2025 18: 13
      BECs are very good at shooting down planes, as recent events have shown.

      It is necessary to evaluate what a BEK with an AIM-9 can do to a water-landed ekranoplan.
  15. 0
    7 May 2025 14: 59
    The US has everything for the Ekranoplan....the question is of the right size and concept
  16. 0
    7 May 2025 21: 09
    It seems to me that it was a mistake to make the ekranoplan a deliberately sea and ocean vehicle. It should be made as a river high-speed strike platform. For example, as a carrier of Zircons or Kalibrs. Or as a transport vehicle for transporting personnel, equipment, ammunition and fuel with a lifting capacity of 50-60 tons. And for redeployment, you can also use the hydrofoil mode or airplane mode. And such a device in Russia with its abundance of rivers and lakes, deserts, steppes, etc. would be priceless.
    1. 0
      9 May 2025 07: 19
      Quote from usm5
      It seems to me that it was a mistake to make the ekranoplan a deliberately sea and ocean vehicle. It should be made as a river high-speed strike platform.

      In this regard, the EP is much better than small ships. Plus, it is not bad as a small anti-submarine vessel.
  17. 0
    7 May 2025 22: 33
    It seems to me that they will play a little and stop. The same harrier is nothing more than a toy, unsuitable for use in any kind of rough weather. In this regard, a cross between a seaplane and an ekranoplan looks better

    But the most important question is: why? Why do we need a huge machine that will be the easiest target for everything? Transport planes are already a tasty target for air defense and are relatively idle. And here is the same thing with much more limited maneuverability. It is also impossible to unload equipment from it, only all sorts of amphibious-like specimens.
    1. 0
      9 May 2025 07: 20
      Quote from John_McCormack
      But the most important question is: why? Why do we need a huge machine that will simply be the easiest target for everything?

      Even for torpedoes, mines and anti-ship missiles?
  18. 0
    7 May 2025 23: 41
    When the "Caspian Monster" went out for sea trials, the roar from its engines was so loud that many were afraid of going deaf and covered their ears with their hands. . . drinks
  19. 0
    8 May 2025 12: 29
    Ekranoplans are not feasible for the sea, at speeds over 70 km/h the water becomes as hard as concrete. Hitting a wave during flight or in takeoff/landing mode leads to disaster. The crashes of the Lun ekranoplan are proof of this. It is time to understand this and not play with ekranoplans. Seaplanes may have prospects (and with the possibility of being based at an airfield, like the Be-12). In the article in the photo 90% of the seaplanes, not ekranoplans (there are few fools left).
    1. 0
      9 May 2025 07: 22
      Quote: vh48905
      Ekranoplans are not feasible for the sea, at speeds over 70 km/h the water becomes as hard as concrete. Hitting a wave during flight or in takeoff/landing mode leads to disaster.

      Yeah, that's why Lun could take off from a five-point wave?

      Quote: vh48905
      The accidents of the ekranoplan "Lun" are proof of this.
      Both cases are due to human error.
  20. 0
    8 May 2025 15: 32
    Author, learn the materiel.
    The USSR built several flying ekranoplans. In addition to Lun, there were also KM and 5 Orlyonoks.