Military Review

The reform of the Ukrainian army will also be based on the immortal ideas of Serdyukov and Co.?

79
Representatives of the Ukrainian military department once again confirmed the information that 2013 will be a turning point for the Ukrainian army. The turning point is that the spring and autumn appeals of young people to the troops (in 2013) will be the last for the country. Next - just a contract.


The head of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Valery Zaman, announced that the leadership had two ways to reform the army. At the same time, these two paths look completely opposites of each other. Path number one is the return of the 2-year conscription service. This way Ukrainian military officials shoals. Path number two - the transfer of the Ukrainian army on a contractual basis. On this path, the current Ukrainian president actively insisted in his time, which, by the way, added to his vote in the last presidential elections in Ukraine. True, Yanukovych argued that the contract army would appear in the country as early as 2011, but the year was 2013, and the conscripts in the Ukrainian Armed Forces have not disappeared anywhere. But both Ukrainians and Russians have already managed to get used to the fact that the election promises of the authorities do not always fit in with the subsequent objective reality.

To transfer the army to a contract basis with the simultaneous modernization of military-technical potentials, Ukraine needs to allocate 125 billion hryvnias (about 420 billion rubles). This figure is not invented by journalists. She was personally voiced by the Minister of Defense Mr. Lebedev. At the same time, the minister said that so far with the Ministry of Finance there are agreements on the allocation of 98 billion hryvnia, but he (Lebedev) expressed the hope that President Yanukovych should say the last word on this matter. Supposedly, the President of Ukraine is capable of influencing the Ministry of Finance in order for the state financiers to allocate the necessary amount for rearmament and, let's say, professionalization of the country's army.

But either Viktor Yanukovych again took the Mkhatovskaya pause, or by his protracted silence he decided to hint Pavel Lebedev that he was “worthless,” but so far there is no information that the money requested by the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine will be allocated in full. Based on this, Pavel Lebedev decided himself to take the bull by the horns, and made a resonant proposal. He said that the Ministry of Defense is ready to use internal reserves and, by taking on additional obligations, can directly participate in the financing of military reform. In this regard, the head of the military department of Ukraine was awarded interrogative views from the Ukrainian public: they say, where did the Ministry of Defense get such money? And will not the reform of the Ukrainian army order life long, if the main military department of the country itself undertakes additional obligations, like those drivers Larionov and Kutko from the famous monologue written by Mikhail Zhvanetsky ...

Where does the money come from? Lebedev explained himself. He announced that the modernization of the army funds can be found where today the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense is present non-core real estate. Many shuddered at such words ... After all, in Ukraine, the public also has an idea of ​​how non-core facilities can be realized. Variants of the implementation of "non-core real estate" are known for the activities of representatives of the Russian Ministry of Defense at the time when the helm of this department was in Anatoly Serdyukov’s sweaty hands: And now, the Ukrainian deja vu.

The reform of the Ukrainian army will also be based on the immortal ideas of Serdyukov and Co.?Defense Minister Lebedev states that the department he heads has a lot of property, from which you can safely get rid of, because the ministry does not need it. Agree that the feeling of deja vu is very stable ...

Lebedev calls more than two hundred military camps in almost all regions of Ukraine separate military-industrial enterprises as “unnecessary” property. In addition, Pavel Lebedev intends to put up for auction and samples of military equipment.
At the same time, the Ukrainian minister said that after the implementation of the designated “non-core” facilities, the country's budget will receive a quote: “billions of hryvnias” that can be spent on re-equipping the army and providing professional military personnel with housing and a decent money allowance. In order to make everything as transparent as possible, the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine is going to conduct a sale through auctions.

Well, what can I say ... God forbid that the Ukrainian versions of auctions for the sale of non-core defense real estate and equipment do not become an exact copy of the auctions arranged by the Russian military at one time. After all, we all know very well how such auctions can be conducted throughout the post-Soviet space. One of the options is to offer such initial conditions for the participation of companies in the auction, which completely discourage the desire to participate in them from representatives of, let's say, transparent business. As a result, the winner of the auction is a company affiliated with the interested bureaucratic environment, the company that was able to enlist the support thanks to such a "compelling argument" as a rollback ... Although, perhaps, we are here in vain about this reasoning. Maybe for Ukrainian officials and Ukrainian business this situation is not typical ...

However, they argue about this in the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine. In particular, some deputies believe that the implementation of the so-called non-core real estate of the Ministry of Defense will not be able to do without the application of corruption schemes. In this case, the same lawmakers argue that about any auctions can not be a speech until then, until a full inventory of army property. The most interesting thing is that doubts about the proposal of the Minister of Defense were expressed by both deputies from the Ukrainian opposition and representatives of the party in power along with those parliamentarians who often define themselves as representatives of the majority camp (for example, the Communists). Members of the Communist Party of Ukraine declare that the Defense Ministry’s property can get on the table for sharing by the Ukrainian oligarchs, and the army itself will receive a fig from such a big sale, and a cookie without butter ...

I would like to hope that in the Ukrainian military in the process of reforming the army, all the pitfalls will be taken into account and a peculiar Russian experience will be taken into account. Although looking at the Russian experience some Ukrainian political forces consider below their dignity ...
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  1. Alikovo
    Alikovo April 8 2013 08: 52
    10
    not a word deja vu. in Ukraine appeared his Serdyukov.
    1. treskoed
      treskoed April 8 2013 09: 00
      +4
      Hopes the same unsinkable! ???
    2. Phantom Revolution
      Phantom Revolution April 8 2013 09: 01
      +2
      Not appeared, but continued the bright path to "nezalezhnost", begun by other "Serdyukov".
      1. botur
        botur April 8 2013 09: 48
        +4
        A bad example is contagious.
    3. nakaz
      nakaz April 8 2013 10: 43
      +3
      Let then Serdyukov completely repeat the path with exposures and imprisonment.
  2. Vrungel78
    Vrungel78 April 8 2013 09: 26
    +4
    spring and autumn conscripts of young people into the troops (in 2013) will be the last for the country. Further - only a contract.
    And they will be settled with wheat
    1. viktorR
      viktorR April 8 2013 18: 38
      +3
      Oh yes, I hear about it every year) for about 8 years already) almost from the time of Kuchma ... 2013 will not be the last, I can get into anything)
  3. self-propelled
    self-propelled April 8 2013 09: 30
    +7
    It seems that Ukrainian politicians do not want to learn from the mistakes of others request firstly, everyone understands perfectly well that all these auctions and property sales are an excellent reason to "heat up" a n-th sum in their pockets (well, our officials are not used to living on one salary). secondly, I'm afraid they will buy up (and then destroy) the enterprises working for the defense industry (who need competitors). and thirdly, even if all (purely hypothetically) the proceeds go to the army, then where to get the funds in the future (after all, they will sell everything) request
    until the government REALLY takes up the army, does not understand the seriousness of the current situation in the defense industry - there will be no business fool
    a state that does not feed its army is doomed to feed someone else’s
    1. Rider
      Rider April 8 2013 18: 31
      +1
      a state that does not feed its army is doomed to feed someone else’s

      so we can just for this and do not want to feed?
      but to cut it fast, but to put that badly
      (which is good, I think they’ve already taken it)

      to sense that soon the wrong army will guard the borders of the homeland
  4. Canep
    Canep April 8 2013 09: 34
    +9
    The standard of living in Ukraine is about 2 times lower than in Kazakhstan. Where to get money for prof. army. This is firstly, and secondly, in countries with a professional army, there are practically no mobs. reserve. What are they going to do if some neighbor from the east decides to "encroach" on their "independence". And then the pros. motivated to fight only for the grandmother. I think you can just buy them.
    1. self-propelled
      self-propelled April 8 2013 09: 43
      +6
      in the country there is not only a mobile reserve, but also means to maintain a more or less normal level of combat capability of the army! all this talk about the transition of the Ukrainian army completely to a contract occurs either before the presidential and parliamentary elections, or in order to distract from other problems in the country. too much time, the army was not really funded, and the sale of military equipment alone could not solve the problems. and what contractor agrees to serve for 200-300 $ request
      1. Canep
        Canep April 8 2013 09: 52
        +2
        In Kazakhstan, a contractor receives 1.5–2 times more (in peacetime, on a base with all other allowances). 300 $ was paid to an ordinary 15 years ago in the Tajik contingent (Kazakhstan battalion in Tajikistan).
    2. Ilya Kovalenko
      Ilya Kovalenko April 13 2013 08: 09
      0
      1. Who do you mean by the phrase "neighbor from the east"? Russia? The east and south of Ukraine will surrender without a fight, I am a brother drinks I will not shoot yes! Let Gallicia be afraid. angry .

      2. First, the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine needs to find "grandmothers" to hire contractors. Then you can talk about bribery.
  5. fenix57
    fenix57 April 8 2013 09: 36
    +3
    " Although looking at the Russian experience, some Ukrainian political forces consider it below their dignity ..."Well, of course, they are a superpower, not like RUSSIA, are" integrating "into" enlightened "Europe ...
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic April 8 2013 14: 47
      +3
      Quote: fenix57
      "Although some Ukrainian political forces consider it beneath their dignity to look at the Russian experience ..." - well, of course, they are a superpower, not like RUSSIA, are "integrating" into "enlightened" Europe ...


      In March this year, a meeting of the NATO military committee at the level of military representatives was held in Brussels, at which Ukraine and the Alliance approved the Roadmap for the implementation of NATO standards in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. As the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine officially reported, during the meeting, representatives of NATO member countries “supported the Ukrainian side’s desire to develop constructive and pragmatic cooperation with NATO, as well as attracting compatible forces and means to peacekeeping operations led by the Alliance”
      So, according to the official information of the Ministry of Defense, in 2012, the Swiss army adopted the Brugger & Thomet APR 308 Swiss sniper rifle (under the designation BT APR308). It uses standard NATO rifle cartridges of 7,62x51 mm (another name is .308 Winchester, under which it goes on commercial sale, in different countries of NATO it is also known as 7.62x51 NATO, 7.62 OTAN, .308 NATO, etc.). This cartridge was adopted as a standard ammunition of NATO countries in 1952, at the bottom of its sleeve is a NATO trademark - a cross in a circle, which means the interchangeability of ammunition for weapons for this cartridge in the armies of the Alliance countries. This cartridge adopted by the Ukrainian Armed Forces along with a rifle.
      At the same time, in the SVD sniper rifle currently in service with the Ukrainian Armed Forces, another cartridge is used - 7,62x54 mm. It is also used in PC and PKM machine guns - the only ones in our class that our army has. And - most importantly - produced in Ukraine.
      Thus, in the Ukrainian army today there are two types of ammunition of the same type, while more recently, one cartridge was used in all sniper rifles and machine guns. This, firstly, “cancels” the previously existing unification of ammunition in the Ukrainian Armed Forces, which any army in the world seeks. And secondly, it raises the question of choice: either to produce NATO cartridges in Ukraine, which with a projected scanty order hardly makes sense, or to buy them abroad, which makes the army dependent on imports of ammunition.
      The previous cartridge, which the Ukrainian Armed Forces got from the Soviet Army, has a bullet weight of 9,6 g (NATO cartridge - 9,33 g), bullet speed - 860 m / s (respectively 838 m / s), bullet energy of 3550 J (3275 J), and this with similar characteristics of gunpowder. That is, the previous cartridge in all respects exceeds NATO. If the fact is that we need new sniper rifles under the "Soviet" cartridge, then in Russia a whole series of modernized and new rifles are produced for it. Wouldn't it be easier to buy them?
      During the IDEX-2013 international arms exhibition held in February 2013 in the UAE, a new development of the Ukrainian company Zbroyar was introduced for the first time - the second generation Z008 sniper rifle, called the Konev rifle. As noted by both domestic and foreign experts, it is highly reliable and accurate and looked worthy against the background of foreign samples of sniper weapons.
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic April 8 2013 14: 48
        +8
        At one of the Russian expert forums, there is such a review of the Z008 rifle: “The Zbroyar company, unfortunately, has only a civilian license and does not produce weapons for the military, which can be considered a major blunder of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. Since the weapons manufactured by the Ukrainian company are really different in quality and reliability and could take their rightful place in the arsenal of the army. ” At this time, the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine buys rifles in Switzerland, and even under the NATO patron ...
        link

        It does not resemble anything from the Russian experience of Mr. Serdyukov’s activities with Iveks, Mistrals, UAVs and Leopards ..
        As he said, it’s not good that they remember another famous character - mainGo to start ..
        1. Rider
          Rider April 8 2013 18: 45
          +2
          Well, it's like in our KZ
          decided to diversify the supply of military equipment
          and purchased C 295
          Now they’re thinking how to repair, crews to retrain and service.
      2. Kars
        Kars April 8 2013 15: 03
        0
        Quote: Ascetic
        We took off the Swiss sniper rifle Brugger & Thomet APR 308 (

        And they will buy 5-10 pieces that will get to the SBU
        Quote: Ascetic
        Armed Forces of Ukraine sniper rifle SVD used a different cartridge - 7,62x54

        why so much attention to the cartridge? The main thing is to rotor the rotors and their characteristics
        Quote: Ascetic
        In 2012 year

        Quote: Ascetic
        held in February 2013, the international arms exhibition IDEX-2013

        may even take.
        Caliber: 5.56x45 / .223 Rem, .243 Win, 7.62x51 /.308Win, 6.5-284, 6.5x55, .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua and others
        by the way, too, there is no Soviet cartridge
        Quote: Ascetic
        Russia under him produce a number of modernized and new rifles. Wouldn't it be easier to buy them?

        But are you sure it’s easier? Maybe in order to buy them you need to join any organization.
        1. Rider
          Rider April 8 2013 18: 50
          +2
          why so much attention to the cartridge?

          I think Asker lucidly explained that such a cartridge is not produced in Ukraine.
          it means dependence on supplies from the mound.
          however, if the trunks are a small batch.
          you don’t really have to worry.
          1. Rider
            Rider April 8 2013 18: 51
            0
            I think Asker

            shabbyka - Ascetic, of course.
            (national feature) wink
          2. Kars
            Kars April 8 2013 18: 56
            +1
            Quote: Rider
            I think Asker lucidly explained, such a cartridge is not produced in Ukraine.

            And? Therefore, you need to give up good sniper rifles.

            and I’m certainly not very in personal small arms, but I heard something that a wide range of special, more expensive and high-quality ammunition is produced for sniper rifles than what goes in the army units for a dragoon rifle, and it is in the warehouses of Ukraine. Also, I'm not in course does Ukraine produce ammunition for small arms in general. We left the USSR for two second world ones.
            1. Rider
              Rider April 8 2013 19: 10
              +2
              And? Therefore, you need to give up good sniper rifles.

              I don’t hail the rifles chosen by your MO.
              it’s just that you yourself said that the party will probably be piece
              I even think that to protect the president, and a couple of anti-terror groups.
              just with such a small amount, they do not do the weather.
              but if there will be more massive purchases, then the problem of dependence on ammunition will arise. especially due to lack of funds.

              Also, I don’t know if Ukraine produces small arms cartridges in general. We are left with two second world ones from the USSR.

              how to take an interest.
              the fact is that rifle ammunition has its own expiration date.
              and old cartridges often misfire.
              I was always amazed at such squeezing of army commanders in the field of rifle training; it would be better to build a plant for the disposal of rifle cartridges than to give the same cartridges to shoot conscripts at a shooting range.
              1. Kars
                Kars April 8 2013 19: 23
                0
                Quote: Rider
                I don't hai your rifle chosen by your mo

                So you have no opinion on sniper cartridges?

                Quote: Rider
                the fact is that rifle ammunition has its own expiration date.
                and old cartridges often misfire

                Not so often, with proper storage.
                German military assemblies, for example, still shoot very well. Have they really done worse in the USSR?
                1. Rider
                  Rider April 8 2013 19: 41
                  +2
                  So you have no opinion on sniper cartridges?

                  Unfortunately no.
                  neither in ballistics, nor in combat use, I have nothing to do with the ammunition under discussion.

                  I just agree with Ascetic that dependence on foreign suppliers in such a form as small rounds is not a buzz.
                  if, as you say, this is a small batch (of trunks), then I think that the acquisition of the APR 308 is a purely PR campaign.
                  or as we have in Kz - they bought Spanish cargo planes for the Air Force, and now they are thinking how to service and repair.
                  rollback rolls.

                  ... with proper storage ... Was it really worse in the USSR.

                  CORRECT STORAGE is the key word.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars April 8 2013 19: 53
                    0
                    Quote: Rider
                    t foreign suppliers in such a form as small rounds - there is no buzzing.

                    Why? Dozens of countries and private firms produce these cartridges.
                    Quote: Rider
                    I think that purchasing APR 308 is a purely PR campaign.

                    and what’s in it from PR? You have to buy, there would be no talk of disarmament of the SVD and its complete replacement.
                    Quote: Rider
                    CORRECT STORAGE is the key word.

                    Yes, it seems to be well stored, especially if in zinc.

                    And by the way, I looked - there is production in Lugansk, and if you again turn to Comrade Asket and your remark on the shelf life, then what is the difference to make old cartridges or start production of new ones. Initial costs will be, but they are not fatal, not a new factory build.
                    1. Rider
                      Rider April 8 2013 20: 14
                      +1
                      Why? Dozens of countries and private firms produce these cartridges

                      Well, see, in the event of a conflict, the purchase of ammunition (and other weapons) may fall under some kind of convention or veto.
                      (this, of course, if you are not going to fight with the Russian Federation)

                      the meaning of the purchase in a small batch may be to familiarize their specialists with this type of vintar.
                      in other cases (arm a couple of special groups) there is no special reason.
                      especially if it is not a question of a complete replacement of SVD.

                      Well, if you will produce, it is another matter.
                      but then again to reconfigure the line.
                      finance, finance.

                      but storage.

                      You mentioned German cartridges from the time of the war.
                      I am pretty sure that although they shoot, the ballistics and penetrative ability are no longer on par.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars April 9 2013 00: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Rider
                        Well, see, in case of conflict

                        What prevents procurement before the conflict?
                        Quote: Rider
                        the meaning of a small batch purchase may be to familiarize your specialists with this type of vinar

                        Why get acquainted with him? This is not to mention that adoption is not necessary for this. And familiarize yourself --- just call and any company will gladly receive dear guests at the highest level.
                        Quote: Rider
                        I am pretty sure that although they shoot, the ballistics and penetrative ability are no longer on par.

                        but they are already 80 years old, and okay, there would have been lots from 1934-38, and on the MG-42 test they shot it in 1944.
                        When they were under the documents for more than three months they were not required (well, or something, a simplified scheme)
                      2. Rider
                        Rider April 9 2013 01: 12
                        +1
                        For kars

                        sorry dear, but in my opinion, you are already arguing for the sake of argument.

                        What prevents procurement before the conflict?

                        Yes, nothing, that's just
                        tell me, will it really affect the outcome of the war even if even 50 vintars?
                        no, of course I understand that it is better with them than without them, but do you really seriously think that they will stop the Romanian, Polish, or Russian army?
                        you really want to, but a small procurement series (as you say) is more of a show off than a really necessary acquisition.

                        And why does he get to know him?

                        tady especially. what for goat boyan
                        because the barrel is positioned as an army, not a special screw cutter.
                        although the claimed characteristics are higher than that of SVD.

                        and okay, there would have been lots from 1934-38, and on the MG-42 test they shot it in 1944.

                        and sho all without delay?
                        but what about dispersion and striking force?
                        is u normal?

                        sorry but - I DO NOT BELIEVE.

                        I am taking my leave for the sim, it's time for the bainki.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars April 9 2013 13: 32
                        0
                        Quote: Rider
                        sorry dear, but in my opinion, you are already arguing for the sake of argument.

                        And for what else?
                        Quote: Rider
                        tell me, will it really affect the outcome of the war even if even 50 vintars?

                        then I don’t understand your concern about
                        Quote: Rider
                        I just agree with Ascetic that dependence on foreign suppliers in such a form as small rounds

                        Really?
                        Quote: Rider
                        tady especially. what for goat boyan

                        Quote: Kars
                        just call, and any company with pleasure will welcome dear guests at the highest level.

                        Quote: Rider
                        and sho all without delay?
                        but what about dispersion and striking force?
                        is u normal?

                        sorry but - I DO NOT BELIEVE

                        No delays or misfires,
                        Well unbelief is natural.
                        What about dispersion and striking power
                        Quote: Rider
                        and in ballistics, nor in combat use, I have nothing to do with the ammunition under discussion.
                        It’s a pity that Dodogats could say that imported, high-quality ammunition, TARGET ammunition could be appreciated against the massive ammunition that the SVD shoots.
                      4. Kars
                        Kars April 9 2013 14: 36
                        0
                        As for the cartridges --- here 36-39
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop April 8 2013 21: 51
    0
    Ukraine and the Alliance approved the Roadmap for the implementation of NATO standards in the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    Tryndec IMHO comes to Ukrainian tank building ... NATO standard, this is not only ammunition, but also inch dimensions across the entire element base. And Kiev is unlikely to allocate money for this. I wonder if there are such means at HTZ?

    By the way, about the cartridges. If you can shoot with a sniper cartridge from a machine gun, then screw up a machine gun rifle - a couple of trifles. The dimensions are one, but the workmanship differs somewhat ... wink
    1. Kars
      Kars April 8 2013 21: 54
      +1
      Quote: Misantrop
      NATO standard, this is not only ammunition, but also inch dimensions across the entire element base

      Really? And how do Tvards operate in Poland? Or in T-55 Romania?
      Quote: Misantrop
      And Kiev is unlikely to allocate money for this.

      For what? NATO was going to buy tanks from us? And guns are already under their caliber by the way.
      1. Misantrop
        Misantrop April 8 2013 22: 42
        +1
        Really? And how do Tvards operate in Poland? Or in T-55 Romania?
        It only means that they switched to the NATO standard not completely, but partially. Is there a firm belief that the Ukrainian politicum has enough intelligence for this? So far, their gestures indicate the opposite ...
        1. Kars
          Kars April 8 2013 23: 58
          0
          Quote: Misantrop
          it only means that they have switched to the NATO standard not completely, but partially.

          But can you tell me in more detail how did you find out about NATO standards and the transition to the inch system? Has Germany really abandoned the metric system?

          Romania produces and produces PCT, we bought from them to complete the Pakistani contract.

          Something I'm sure that you are very mistaken in this matter. It is likely that NATO standards in the army of Ukraine have no relation to millimeters and the military-industrial complex.

          http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG

          Hundreds of standardization agreements (currently the total number is slightly less than 1300) include agreements on ammunition calibers, ammunition itself, cartographic notation, communication methods, bridge classification, and much more.
          1. Misantrop
            Misantrop April 9 2013 13: 00
            +1
            But can you tell me in more detail how did you find out about NATO standards and the transition to the inch system? Has Germany really abandoned the metric system?

            Do you really not understand? With an engineering degree? What then to demand from others? A similar question: "What's fluffier, song or Friday?" wassat

            It would be great if Russia, Ukraine (and the rest of the countries of the former USSR) switched to NATO standards. That's just until it's feasible. Just because STANDARD and DIMENSION is ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT concepts. The standard is the maximum permissible deviation rate from a given size. And there is not much difference in what metric system this size is indicated. It is for this reason that a car of the same model and brand assembled in Germany (Korea, etc.) differs from that assembled in Ukraine. I'm not even talking about manufacturing, with this - generally a blockage. And to bring the STANDARD to their norms, alas, huge funds are needed. Not only to change the machine park for a new one, which makes it possible to work according to the required standard without "circus tricks", but also to retrain everyone who is practically engaged in this at the moment. Starting from the laborer and to the Quality Control Department ...

            Why do I say that by switching to the SIZES of NATO countries, but remaining in the previous STANDARD, Ukraine will get rubbish at the exit, which is not needed not only by anyone on the planet, but also by herself. Having ruined at the same time the currently produced line of goods, which has at least some demand. And in the end - the collapse of their own production and thrown into the street crowds of hungry ...
            1. Kars
              Kars April 9 2013 13: 40
              0
              Quote: Misantrop
              You really don’t understand? With an engineering diploma?

              It looks like you do not understand the nuclear engineer, since you can’t VISUALLY bring something.
              Quote: Misantrop
              The standard is the maximum permissible norm of deviations from a given size

              I wonder how this relates, for example, to cartographic notations.
              Quote: Misantrop
              Why I say that by moving to the SIZES of NATO countries, but remaining in the same STANDARD, Ukraine will get rubbish at the exit

              You write nonsense. The Russian Federation makes guns with NATO caliber.
              Here is a tank made and accepted for testing for a member of Turkey’s NATO.
              1. Misantrop
                Misantrop April 9 2013 19: 13
                0
                just can’t VISUALLY bring something.
                I thought that for an ENGINEER it makes no sense to quote the alphabet. It seems that he was mistaken, the current diplomas are not too expensive ...
                I wonder how this relates, for example, to cartographic notations.
                Have you ever heard about digital cards? But in Ukraine as many as 4 cartographic teams worked on this topic. Independent authorities considered it unnecessary. "Why the heck geography, when there are cabbies?" (c) By the way, the digital map embedded in the "head" of the cruise missile allows it not to use external guidance systems at all, i.e. knocking it off course or taking over control is IMPOSSIBLE (for this you need to redo the globe)
                You write nonsense. The Russian Federation makes guns with NATO caliber.

                Marshal, learn to READ ...
                there is no particular difference in which metric this size is indicated.
                For a specific order, you can make tools even in the arshin-laptev system of measurement. If the customer needs ...

                The trouble with Russia, IMHO, is that if PRECISION machines fell into it, then occasionally, "from under the floor" and out of order. And build tanks, submarines, etc. it was NECESSARY. So they laid the tolerances that these machines could issue. And design the technique taking into account THESE tolerances. The "industrial revolution" of the West passed by Russia, and the remnants of the civil one were finished off. Then - the blockade with the purchase of strategically important things for food and at exorbitant prices. Since the 90s, the machine tool industry was again completely ruined. Those. now the rise "from zero" begins again. By the way, China has the same problem, it is not the blood-handed Chinese who are most often to blame.
                Here our nuclear submarines were scolded for their noise. And how many people know that ALL the submarine propellers were sharpened MANUALLY. From bronze castings by pneumatic machines. A team of the deaf and dumb at the Zvezdochka shipyard. Deaf and dumb - not from excessive secrecy. It's just that a 4-meter-diameter disc SO "sings" during processing, that a person with normal hearing could not stand it at this job ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 9 2013 23: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  it makes no sense to quote the alphabet. It seems to be wrong

                  But again you stupidly pour water, and talk about nothing.
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  Why the hell is geography, when there are cabbies? "(C) By the way, the digital map embedded in the" head "of a cruise missile allows it

                  I know, and I even have cards from the CIA archive that were thrown into the net.
                  BUT YOU again didn’t say anything.

                  There is a NATO standard for the classification of bridges, what do you think if Ukraine joins it, we will have to rebuild bridges))))))
                  Quote: Misantrop
                  For a specific order, you can make tools even in the arshin-laptev system of measurement. If the customer needs ...

                  Well nadozhe))))

                  So the answer is yours

                  Quote: Misantrop
                  Tryndets IMHO comes to Ukrainian tank building ... NATO standard

                  Let's develop a topic, show that my diploma is far from yours))))
        2. Ascetic
          Ascetic April 9 2013 00: 55
          +2
          Quote: Misantrop
          It only means that they switched to the NATO standard not completely, but partially. Is there a firm belief that the Ukrainian politicum has enough intelligence for this? So far, their gestures indicate the opposite ...


          In any case, EU membership will only be after Ukraine joins NATO. Rasmussen openly confirmed this
          “Two years ago, at the NATO summit in Bucharest, it was decided that Ukraine and Georgia could become members of the alliance. Of course, having fulfilled the necessary criteria, - said Rasmussen. - And this decision remains valid. Created by the Ukraine-NATO and Georgia-NATO Commissions, in the framework of which we decided on practical cooperation with these states to carry out reforms of the armed forces.


          NATO offers Ukraine to increase peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan and Liberia, Defense Minister Pavel Lebedev said at a briefing in the Chernihiv region on Saturday, Interfax-Ukraine reports.
          "We were asked to consider the issue of increasing the number of our peacekeeping forces, including in Afghanistan and Africa, as well as other hot spots," the minister said.
          Analyzing the results of his visit to Brussels at a meeting of the Ukraine-NATO Commission, Lebedev noted that the relevant proposals were submitted to the President of Ukraine, he would consider them and make a decision.

          UKRAINE WILL INTRODUCE NATO STANDARDS IN THE PROCESS OF REFORMING THE ARMY
          Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization have approved the Roadmap for implementing the implementation of military standards in the transformation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the press service of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said.
          link
          1. Kars
            Kars April 9 2013 01: 11
            0
            Quote: Ascetic
            Two years ago, at the NATO summit in Bucharest, it was decided that Ukraine and Georgia could become members of the alliance. Of course, having fulfilled the necessary criteria, - said Rasmussen. - And this decision remains valid. Created by the Ukraine-NATO and Georgia-NATO Commissions, in the framework of which we decided on practical cooperation with these states to carry out military reforms

            Where is there even a word about joining the EU? And the EU’s linkage to the idea is that someone from the EU should say that one of the points is joining NATO.

            Quote: Ascetic
            NATO invites Ukraine to increase peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan and Liberia


            There are encouraging rumors about the deployment of troops in Mali. This is money, combat experience, the possibility of the participation of Ukrainian contractors. And it’s easier to die under the car than in a peacekeeping mission.
            Quote: Ascetic
            UKRAINE WILL INTRODUCE NATO STANDARDS IN THE PROCESS OF REFORMING THE ARMY

            And it already was, it would be better to write what was wrong with that.
  • Misantrop
    Misantrop April 8 2013 21: 46
    0
    I wonder who is planning for the role of Vasilyeva in this performance? If Julia, then this tandem has a great future ... laughing
  • Canep
    Canep April 8 2013 09: 39
    0
    Rather disintegrates, and then in this state will be asked to join the Eurasian Union.
    1. self-propelled
      self-propelled April 8 2013 09: 44
      +4
      there are enough of their beggars ...
  • Landwarrior
    Landwarrior April 8 2013 09: 46
    +6
    Hehe. I always thought that "rake running" is a purely Russian national fun, but no, it turns out laughing
    Well, they don’t want to learn from the mistakes of others, let them cone themselves.
    Someone bumps, someone pockets wink
  • as3wresdf
    as3wresdf April 8 2013 09: 57
    -3
    The base of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of all citizens of the Russian Federation on this site twitlink.ws/baza and the main thing was done as if to search for lost relatives, but here is all the information about each of us: correspondence with friends, addresses, phones, place of work, and the worst thing is even mine nudity photo (though I do not know from where ...). In general, I was very scared - but there is such a function as "hide data" of course I used it and I advise everyone not to hesitate, you never know
  • pavlo007
    pavlo007 April 8 2013 10: 03
    11 th
    Guys, why are you so worried about Bandera? For us, the more it falls apart, the better. All the same, unless, of course, the most charismatic Putinoids of the Chubais type come to power, the WARRIOR WITH UKRAINE is inevitable in the future. Unless of course Russia wants to remain a state.
    1. Canep
      Canep April 8 2013 10: 08
      +3
      Russia borders on Ukraine, if there begins a mess (like the Chechen or Afghan), then it will be exported to Russia stasis. I would not want to. Truth?
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv April 8 2013 12: 12
        +1
        Russia borders on Ukraine, if there begins a mess (like the Chechen or Afghan), then it will be exported to Russia stasis.
        Funny however)). If we do not have the helm, he will quickly turn 2/3 of Ukraine into a protectorate. Ala Belarus.
    2. 3dmaxsev
      3dmaxsev April 8 2013 11: 01
      15
      And with whom are you here, dear to fight, gathered? Or do you think that we are sleeping here in Ukraine and see how to fight for our "beloved" officials? Moreover, to fight with Russia, no matter how provocateurs incite discord between fraternal peoples, ordinary people will not go to war. In general, I consider your words as an insult to myself, sincerely I consider Ukrainians and Russians as one people, and your words are just a spit in my soul. Maybe we will learn to separate the concepts of "power" and "people". And I don't want to see bloodshed between people of the same people in a nightmare. Or do you, perhaps, want to fight for the interests of a snickering and corrupt bunch of "elite"?
      1. pavlo007
        pavlo007 April 8 2013 13: 22
        +1
        So I have nothing against people living in Ukraine, the Lord is with you! But the state is completely different. Like friends, and regularly with a gap of 5 percent in Ukraine, fascists from Lviv come to power.
        And for the ruling clique, what is in Ukraine, what in Russia is what exactly needs an army with predominantly police functions.
        They will choose Yushchenko again and the same thing will begin again.
        I repeat once again that I have nothing against the people who are now living in Little Russia on the temporarily occupied territory of Russia, but this does not negate the fact that the state formation Ukraine must be destroyed at ANY PRICE.
        If you think that Russians and Ukrainians are one nation, you must understand that while the puppet state of Ukraine exists, the fact of the existence of the Russian nation is a big question.
        Unfortunately, I do not see the prospects of eliminating the statehood of Ukraine without a forceful scenario. And a bunch of people will go to war - the whole Western women will be recruited.
        1. Rider
          Rider April 8 2013 18: 58
          +1
          Do uv see paul.
          states are fighting, and people are being killed.
          so no matter how you relate to ordinary Ukrainians
          (and others who live there)
          but you have to shoot at them.
          Alas, it is not written on the forehead of Bandera that he is a UNA UNSist.
          1. pavlo007
            pavlo007 April 8 2013 19: 12
            0
            AND?????? Which of these?
            I never dispute the fact that war is a terrible evil and tragedy, all that you wrote is the pure truth. The question of what is better for us - a completely degraded formation of Ukraine with an incompetent army consisting of a gopota, will God give a run away at the very first moment, or a stable state with a capable motivated army - the first option warms my soul.

            I repeat - no one says that war is good, the fact is that if our country does not eliminate the occupation of the southern lands and does not destroy the very memory of the existence of the so-called Ukraine and the so-called Ukrainian dialect, it can be considered that Russia will not be able to continue its existence as a superpower (for which the Poles and Bzdezhinsky created the great Hohland) and must put up with a place, well, for example, Holland, Sweden.
            For many, this is a very comfortable way, the only problem is THAT RUSSIA DOESN'T HAVE THIS WAY, because they will not allow us to calmly smoke weed in a coffee shop and watch striptease because of our wealth.
            1. Kars
              Kars April 8 2013 19: 19
              +2
              Quote: pavlo007
              that if our country does not eliminate the occupation of the southern lands and does not destroy the very memory of the existence of the so-called Ukraine and the so-called Ukrainian dialect

              wassat Oh well))))))))))))))))
              Quote: Ascetic
              then in Russia a whole series of modernized and new rifles are produced under it. Wouldn't it be easier to buy them?

              Speak at YOU to purchase)))))
            2. Rider
              Rider April 8 2013 19: 31
              +4
              and again, uv paul
              I also advocate for the unification of the Slavic peoples into a single state.
              but unfortunately, the second reunification of Ukraine with Russia can occur only in conditions of some kind of tragedy.
              either the complete collapse of Ukraine as a state, or if external aggression is committed on it, and the army of the Criminal Code is unable to repulse it.
              then they will again remember the Slavic brotherhood, and, in spite of "their" chief executives, they will be requested under the wing of Russia.

              the option you proposed is extremely inapplicable.
              since it will repel those Ukrainians who previously had a positive attitude towards unification. Yes, and there will be many who will resist just following the order.
              (I'm not even talking about banderlogs)
              and of course all "civilized" mankind will immediately make an aggressor out of Russia.

              I repeat, I am SURE that Ukraine and Belarus and Russia will be a single state.
              but in no case can this be done by force.
              1. pavlo007
                pavlo007 April 8 2013 20: 39
                0
                So no one argues. The fact of the matter is that Russia owes any, maybe even seemingly strange ways to push Ukraine to collapse and chaos. Only in this case can the occupation of Kiev, Kharkov and Sevastopol be abolished. In this regard, the coming to power in Ukraine of pro-fascist forces is much more expedient for us. Alas, in this situation the worse the better.
                And forgive me, what does "alienate the Ukrainians" mean? If a person identifies himself as a Ukrainian, then he is a traitor and a traitor like the Vlasovites and the policemen. Ukrainian is a political concept introduced by the Bolshevik Zionists, Poles and other English scum. By definition, a Ukrainian is simply a Russian collaborator, nothing more.
                If a person betrayed his homeland, then from this, alas, he does not acquire another nationality. The fact of the matter is that human psychology is so structured that it is very uncomfortable to say to yourself "I am a traitor, I betrayed my Motherland for $ 30, I am like that." There are very few people with the psychology of Dr. Evil, such a Phantomass-like scoundrel. From here, a person begins to look for a psychological way out, persuading himself - "I am not a traitor, I did not betray my Motherland when I swore allegiance to the" state "Ukraine, I am not Russian, Russian is not me, there is just such a nation ... I remember how I was oppressed by these Russian beasts in the pioneer camp, as they prevented the hopak from dancing, and in the army, the Russian foreman Tarasenko took lard and vodka from me, I always felt that I was somehow different ... "
                But these self-incriminations seem not to the end and not all are successful - hence they freak out.
                1. Rider
                  Rider April 8 2013 21: 33
                  0
                  The fact of the matter is that Russia owes any, maybe even seemingly strange ways to push Ukraine to collapse and chaos.

                  Don't you think that this will be similar to the action of our American "sworn friends", to destroy the country in order to plant another "pike's son"?
                  But how will the residents of Ukraine react to the help in the collapse?
                  state interests. do not always coincide with the interests of the people, this is a state inhabiting.

                  If a person has betrayed his homeland, then, alas, from this he does not acquire a different nationality.

                  that is, do you think that Russians and Bandera live in Ukraine?
                  and such a nation as ukroinets does not exist?
                  I certainly understand that 40 percent, those who are recorded in the passport as Ukrainian, in fact, are not.
                  but what to do with the rest, under the knife?
                  1. Kars
                    Kars April 8 2013 21: 51
                    -1
                    Most likely in the person of Pavlik, we have that Pavlik Morozov crossed with Machiaveli who believes that he is the smartest. At the same time, he pays tribute to Chechnya, is afraid to take Dagistanians into the army and have an excellent one and a half billion Chinese neighbor.

                    but it’s necessary to read these, after that our preoccupied people from Liberty begin to feel like normal people. if their views on the history of World War II weren’t at all ....
                    1. Rider
                      Rider April 8 2013 22: 43
                      +1
                      Most likely in the person of Pavlik, we have this Pavlik Morozov

                      Well, rather the bad memory of Pasha Mercedes.

                      Chechnya is not even in the top ten on the list of subsidized regions.
                      but here's another question after the Stalingrad ruins 95-03gg
                      Terrible right now, a wonderful metropolis with a developed system of roads and services.
                      but other subsidized regions cannot boast of such.
                      so it turns out that the "tribute" can be used with benefit.

                      by demotivator
                      the war between Russia and Ukraine will be primarily a civil war in Ukraine itself.

                      Well, you must deal with the Svobodovites yourself.
                    2. pavlo007
                      pavlo007 April 8 2013 23: 46
                      -2
                      And we do not differ in assessments. The current Russian political regime is absolutely criminal. All of you correctly said both about Putinism-Kadyrism and about the best Chinese friend who is about to swallow Siberia.
                      The root of the fact that the Ukraine project, formed by Zbigniew Bzezhinsky, still exists in Moscow. Zhovto blakit rag, painted by the Poles, hangs over the Russian city of Kiev only because the Russian state, alas, is mortally sick. And the disease would not be so severe, if in Russia there really were not 40 percent voting for Putin and 10 percent for our local orange scum, another 20 percent do not care at all.
                      I will say more, it is precisely Putin's clique that the EXISTENCE of Ukraine is FAVORABLE. These people think more "broadly" than you and me. And Russia and "Ukraine" for them are only political and business projects, these people have no homeland.
                      Yes, and what are your complaints about Machiavelli? politics is an extremely cynical thing and it’s dangerous to cheat - it has one mover - money and expediency, although this is one and the same.
                      Something like that...

                      PS And Pavlik Morozov, what side? Grind the style :))))
                      We teach PPS Russian - dagEstants is written through E. Suddenly, even with them you will remove snow in Siberia ...
                      1. Kars
                        Kars April 9 2013 00: 12
                        -1
                        Quote: pavlo007
                        PS And Pavlik Morozov, what side? Grind the style :)))

                        Are you not a Pavlik?
                        Quote: pavlo007
                        . We learn Russian - dagEstants is written through E.

                        I do not care
                        Quote: pavlo007
                        A yellow rag painted by Poles dangles over the Russian city of Kiev just because the Russian state, alas, is mortally painful

                        It is strange why the USSR was in the USSR, after the First World UPR and ZUNR
                        but it’s nevadno, then also Brzezinski came up with.
                        Quote: pavlo007
                        Yes, and what are your complaints about Machiavelli?

                        Yes, no, I even called that cat)) but you don’t pull on it.
                      2. pavlo007
                        pavlo007 April 9 2013 02: 49
                        0
                        You, a very interesting changeable love, of the Ukrainian fascist, for the Soviet regime.
                        You really love the Soviet government where it artificially creates the Ukrainian SSR, carries out Ukrainization, gives Crimea, Lugansk, Kharkov to it, but you are very offended when the Red Army begins to crack down on the Galicia SS division.
                        Regarding the UNR, the ZUNR without any comments at all - all these are anecdotal formations from "Wedding in Malinovka".
                        Of course, I will not convince you that the first people on Earth were not the ancient ukry, who was expelled from paradise because Granny Paraska seduced them with a glass of moonshine and bacon - this is not real, but I can say with guarantee that Brzezinski was not the first Pole on Earth, do you think, believe me, well, or ask your cat, I think he’s with intelligence is better than you, my Svidomo druk :))))
              2. Egoza
                Egoza April 9 2013 05: 25
                +2
                Quote: pavlo007
                If a person identifies himself as a Ukrainian, then he is a traitor and a traitor by the type of Vlasov and police officers. Ukrainian is a political concept introduced by the Bolshevik Zionists, Poles and other English evil spirits. A Ukrainian, by definition, is simply a Russian collaborator, no more.

                Do not rush to pounce on those who consider themselves Ukrainians. You just need to understand that Maloros have been called that for over 100 years! S.A. Kovpak and many of his partisans also considered themselves Ukrainians! Also write to the traitors? Molodogvardeytsev there too? It doesn’t matter how a person identifies himself. It is important how he acts, what moral qualities he has.
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 9 2013 00: 07
        -1
        Quote: pavlo007
        the fact of the existence of the Russian nation is a big question.

        You save the Rostov region, and then there the fact of the existence of the Russian nation is a big question.
        1. Cossack
          Cossack April 9 2013 00: 28
          +2
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          You save the Rostov region, and then there the fact of the existence of the Russian nation is a big question.


          Oh how!? And the boys didn’t even know ... Thanks Belarus warned us Rostovites ...
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm April 9 2013 11: 43
            0
            Quote: Cossack
            Oh how!? And the boys didn’t even know ... Thanks Belarus warned us Rostovites ...

            I didn’t want to catch someone from Rostov, I was in Rostov, I always remember with warmth, but I think you will agree with me that there is a problem in the south of the Rostov region. It’s not proper to just get into neighboring domestic affairs (you didn’t like it), the time will come and the Ukrainians will decide who they should be with, in any case, we must respect their choice.
  • Cossack
    Cossack April 8 2013 11: 16
    +7
    And why did you register all the citizens of Ukraine in Bandera? For example, I don’t consider all the inhabitants of the beautiful city of St. Petersburg in which you live 3.14 Darasy, although this city is famous for its high concentration.
    I sincerely wish you and the same fighters of the keyboard front to be in the first ranks of any war. The world will only benefit from this.
  • z-exit
    z-exit April 8 2013 10: 07
    0
    Quote: as3wresdf
    The base of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of all citizens of the Russian Federation on this site twitlink.ws/baza and the main thing was done as if to search for lost relatives, but here is all the information about each of us: correspondence with friends, addresses, phones, place of work, and the worst thing is even mine nudity photo (though I do not know from where ...). In general, I was very scared - but there is such a function as "hide data" of course I used it and I advise everyone not to hesitate, you never know

    ADMIN urgently BANAN man!
  • Kosatka
    Kosatka April 8 2013 10: 10
    +7
    Lebedev’s arable land in Sevastopol is very well known for its indefatigable and fruitful activity in the field of land appropriation. Huckster and poets rare. This grabber was the main Ukrainian guarantor, put in a ministerial chair for the seizure of land MO. In Crimea and Sevastopol, this appointment has given a new round to the quiet seizure of the lands of the Moscow Oblast (the former lands of the Moscow Oblast should be considered). In particular, the Navy's berths, the territory of air defense units (especially in the coastal and mountainous parts of Crimea), and now the Kiev-Donetsk Gauleider of Sevastopol Yatsub created a commission for the inventory and use of land and moorings of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation. This redneck is still the one from the Serdyukov tribe and the like. Scandals and punishments will still be. In the meantime, in Ukraine, Barges and SALE CREATURES rule, with an increased sense of NATIONAL dignity, they won’t get a damn.
  • Russian knight
    Russian knight April 8 2013 11: 16
    +3
    Ukrainian politicians have ruined their army for a long time, what will they support it for? Soon the country will fall into the abyss by the efforts of their oak president. It is a pity the people led by thieves and temporary workers.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya April 8 2013 11: 18
    +4
    Quote: 3dmaxsev
    And with whom are you here, dear to fight, gathered? Or do you think that we are sleeping here in Ukraine and see how to fight for our "beloved" officials? Moreover, to fight with Russia, no matter how provocateurs incite discord between fraternal peoples, ordinary people will not go to war. In general, I consider your words as an insult to myself, sincerely I consider Ukrainians and Russians as one people, and your words are just a spit in my soul. Maybe we will learn to separate the concepts of "power" and "people". And I don't want to see bloodshed between people of the same people in a nightmare. Or do you, perhaps, want to fight for the interests of a snickering and corrupt bunch of "elite"?

    You know, I also consider the Slavs to be one people, but lately many ordinary Ukrainians have expressed nationalistic Bendery views, this is not scary, it infuriates. And most of all, it infuriated that in Chiche, the Ukrainians fought not for the brothers of the Slavs, but for an alien Muslim faith.
    1. Krapovy32
      Krapovy32 April 8 2013 11: 23
      +3
      Prapor Afonya

      Hi Afonya, yes, people have completely washed their brains. A friend went to Ukraine in the summer to his grandmother. I went to an electronics store, I wanted to buy a new TV for her. So the consultants did not want to approach when in Russian he turned to them.
    2. 3dmaxsev
      3dmaxsev April 8 2013 11: 31
      +8
      Let's not judge the entire population of Ukraine by a handful of nationalist (fascist) bandits. As for their popularity: the people are tired of anarchy, lawlessness, injustice and other delights of "democracy and lowliness", so they rush to extremes, people are madly tired of this political prostitution and theft. I personally do not support them, and neither do all my friends. Now, if Putin ran for the elections in Ukraine, I am sure he would become president. We need stability and confidence in the future, and the popularity of nationalists will soon disappear, simply because they cannot build and develop anything, only destroy. People will soon get tired of them.
      1. Drosselmeyer
        Drosselmeyer April 8 2013 11: 34
        +3
        You're right. If now some Ukrainian Pinochet appears and drives all these MPs to the stadium, the people will carry it in their arms.
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv April 8 2013 12: 13
          0
          then the people will carry it in their arms.
          We will throw you our own, you will not mind?
      2. artem772
        artem772 April 8 2013 17: 41
        -4
        I remember that such a party "For Putin" ran in the parliamentary elections before last in Ukraine - it scored 0 and a penny percent. And in the last elections, the "Russian Bloc" was also something near zero. Even in Crimea they lost to the orange. Nothing personal, just facts. The percentage of Russians in Ukraine is less than in Latvia or Estonia. And I remember well the mood in Ukraine during the Tuzla era - if the Russians had invaded then, I would not have envied them.
        1. viktorR
          viktorR April 8 2013 19: 21
          +5
          I beg you ... What moods there), even what was shown on the box, looked playfully and frivolously). We would like to invade and take Tuzla, no one blundered. Militarily, of course. And in the political yes, I would also not envy the Russians), it would stink))). They didn’t succeed in a quiet one, so they thought that the game wasn’t worth the candle.
          Here another question is that if such a mess happened even for the sake of some Tuzla, it would most likely lead to the separation of part of Ukraine in favor of Russia. Do not underestimate the pro-Russian citizens who will help the Russian troops, or maybe even become partisans. That is, I mean that fermentation within Ukraine will certainly begin and it will not be consolidated, which will lead to its soon collapse and possibly even that Ukraine will cease to exist as a state.
        2. 3dmaxsev
          3dmaxsev April 8 2013 21: 51
          +2
          You are right, there are really few Russians in Ukraine, but there are a lot of Russians.
    3. Cossack
      Cossack April 8 2013 11: 38
      +3
      And you don’t get mad. You look soberly at the world. UPshniks fought in Chechnya not for the Muslim faith and in Abkhazia not for Georgian Christians, but for money and for their PERSONAL hatred of Russia and Russians. Do not confuse them with the rest of the people of Ukraine.
      And in order to keep abreast of events you need to communicate with living people, and not with TV and the Internet. I advise you to visit Ukraine at least once and see everything with your own eyes, and not feed on rumors ...
      And for the sake of reference. It is correct to say - "Bandera" views. From the words of Bandera. "Bender views" means the views of a resident of Bender. There is such a city in Transnistria.
  • bazzz
    bazzz April 8 2013 11: 20
    +1
    Wow, the Serdyukov’s case lives and wins! Comrades, take the right path !!!
  • Drosselmeyer
    Drosselmeyer April 8 2013 11: 32
    +5
    Ha, they made fun. Where in our impoverished Ukraine will they find $ 15 billion for the army? The government cannot get a loan of 4 billion from the IMF to repay interest on a previous loan. Lebedev was set up only in order to represent the land of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, representing his interests and the interests of the sons of Yanukovych. Sevastopol already wants to close the hospital of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, because it is located on the seashore. Not a single penny from the sale of land to the budget. Yes, and no sale whatsoever, there will be a free appropriation of the land.
    And the army, with such salaries will soon just run away. Which one will serve for 200-300 dollars is just completely armless, a slacker-marginal without any kind of education.
    1. TRAFFIC
      TRAFFIC April 8 2013 12: 26
      0
      "For 2017-2025, we plan to re-equip. We plan to spend 125 billion hryvnia," Lebedev said. At 2 billion a year, in 4 years, what is the problem?
    2. amp
      amp April 8 2013 12: 26
      0
      Well, yes, the outcasts will go who will not serve, but will drink vodka.
      And you can even do this: you give part of the salary to the commander and you do not go to the service.
    3. Egoza
      Egoza April 9 2013 05: 36
      +4
      Quote: Drosselmeyer
      Sevastopol already wants to close the hospital of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, because it is located on the seashore. Not a single penny from the sale of land to the budget. Yes, and no sale whatsoever, there will be a free appropriation of the land.

      This is to the very point! Apparently, fearing the "invasion of Russia", and taking into account the mood of the Sevastopol residents, they decided to quickly grab everything that was still possible. Then, even if Sevastopol or the entire Crimea becomes part of the Russian Federation, there will be something to profit from. For "private property is sacred!"
  • Bandera
    Bandera April 8 2013 12: 10
    +3
    The power on JSC "Ukraine" has passed all the permissible limits. They are sitting on a powder keg and striking matches. Building up the police apparatus, they throw crumbs to the military. That they have a notorious external threat, they fear their own people more than the ambitions of Poland to East Kresy, Romania to Bessarabia and Bukovina, Russia to the Crimea (excuse me if I offended anyone), Slovakia to Transcarpathian Rus.
    But will the money help? Will rogues be accepted in the event of general flight?

    History is a cyclic thing. Now the Ruin is like in the 17th century, the struggle between individual clans for influence. The inability to effectively manage their country (autonomy) as a result brought under the complete control of the Russian crown. And how it all began beautifully and heroically ...
    1. viktorR
      viktorR April 8 2013 19: 31
      -1
      Ha ha ha)))) it started beautifully? What, just pan Bandera, and when it started beautifully?
  • amp
    amp April 8 2013 12: 22
    +2
    I’ll tell you how it will be: the army will be transferred to the contract, but since there is no normal money to pay the contract soldiers, they will recruit, first, the wives of officers (women are now 50% among Ukrainian contract soldiers) and, secondly, all sorts of drunks of 40 years. This will be the so-called army .

    A territorial army would follow Ukraine, following the example of the Swiss. In the section of the army of the world there is an article about it on VO.

    Territorial army + small peacetime contract army.
    But this initially suggests that conscription will not only remain, but will be the basis of the country's defense. Ukrainians want to get rid of it as a phenomenon. This is their mistake.

    I will say more, such a structure of the armed forces and for Russia is ideal. Fully contracted peacetime, plus a huge territorial army. There is a basis for this both in Ukraine and in Russia. Fully cropped divisions, storage bases, just abandoned parts.

    For Russia, it would be necessary to increase the number of airborne forces, marine corps and army special forces, so that all this totaled 150 thousand - more than enough to crush some Georgia, and completely make units of the military personnel cropped. But such that there was an opportunity, like in Israel or Switzerland, to put hundreds of thousands under arms for several hours. Thus, it is possible to reduce the army by half without losses for defense.
    1. washi
      washi April 10 2013 10: 27
      0
      And who will serve in the territorial army in Siberia and the Far East? Or, besides the Moscow princes, we have nothing to protect?
  • Conepatus
    Conepatus April 8 2013 12: 54
    +1
    Even if the army is commanded by a competent person who knows what and how to do, nothing will come of it. Our people are more afraid of their power than an external threat. Already now there are more than 2-3 times cops in the country. And they have an appropriate budget. Think bandyukov catch? Her people bend over for any reason.
  • DmitryMSK
    DmitryMSK April 8 2013 13: 59
    +2
    I’ve noticed for a long time how we’ll come up with some kind of crap, so in Ukraine they repeat it a bit later, with the contractors, with the police (they wanted to rename), what with the uniform ....

    Now here it is fool
  • knn54
    knn54 April 8 2013 14: 38
    +1
    A thief is an international concept. And Ukraine is not, there is Donetsk Pahanat ...
  • Vtel
    Vtel April 8 2013 14: 51
    +1
    Tse well "brother" Serdyukov - his business lives. Another son of Lieutenant Schmidt, in their language bargaining is appropriate here.
  • zennon
    zennon April 8 2013 16: 24
    +1
    Quote: Cossack
    You look at the world soberly. UPAshniki fought in Chechnya not for the Muslim faith and in Abkhazia not for Georgian Christians, but for money and for their PERSONAL hatred of Russia and Russians. Do not confuse them with the rest of the people of Ukraine.

    But how do you distinguish them? Don't you think that there are too many of them, so as not to be considered marginalized.
    1. Cossack
      Cossack April 8 2013 20: 15
      +1
      Quote: zennon
      But how do you distinguish them? Don't you think that there are too many of them, so as not to be considered marginalized.


      I quite often visit Ukraine, but I have never come across not only upashniki, SSVolotavtsy or other idiots, but even with the usual aggression on the topic (Russian, Russian, Russia or something like that). Of course there are such, but why something, to me personally, they are found only on the Internet. In real life, I have not seen them, although in 20 years of "nezalezhnost" should have already encountered ... But apparently I'm unlucky smile ... I used to believe my eyes and my experience. And there are nationalists everywhere.
      And returning to your question. Have you in real life often come across those of which there are “too many?” Or are all your impressions based on knowledge from the network, and do you judge Ukraine and its citizens by someone else's words?
      1. Conepatus
        Conepatus April 8 2013 21: 04
        0
        I also tried to explain this, only scooped up the minuses. In vain they wrote, soon forum users like ATATA, KHAN, Avenger, etc., and minuses will fly faster than any inflation.
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 April 8 2013 19: 53
    +1
    Quote: viktorR
    Do not underestimate the pro-Russian citizens who will help the Russian troops, or maybe even become partisans.

    My friend lives in the Donbass, was born in Samara, has lived all his life in Ukraine, always chooses to vote for Russian politicians in the elections, and generally constantly verbally supports everything Russian. But then one sentence told me after which, as a Ukrainian, I had all doubts about the confrontation between the West and the East.
    He said the following: - I am Russian, from the roots of the hair to the toes, but if I see a Russian tank in my city, I’ll sleep on it with the crew, like any other (American, German, etc.) that’s why I live in this country and die for it, and any enemy who has entered my land here will remain forever in the land.
    This was said by a 32-year-old man who lived in the Donbass and whose almost all relatives live in Russia.
    He asks for mercy "to" ukraine "... but only as guests ...
    1. Dmitro
      Dmitro April 19 2013 19: 25
      +1
      You probably even burst into tears when you composed this fable? ... Ah ... Here it is, the dream of a hidden banderlog and its paranoia - Russian tanks (paranoia) and a Russian guy burning these tanks in the name of Ukry (dream). Not only Russians, but the whole population of these places (Donbass and the entire Black Sea region) remember the history of these lands, and it has nothing to do with the history of this Ukraine (which never existed). They remember thanks to whose will the Slavs Orthodox in general can live near the Black Sea. Here Volia is not a Galicia of shameful, not Kiev and Poltava Silyans, not a Zaporozhye Cossack junta, but the whole will of Russia and the Russian soldier who conquered these lands from the Turks and the Khanate. Here, in the Donbass and throughout the Black Sea region, the history of Russia, not Ukry. Everyone knows, everyone remembers!
  • O_RUS
    O_RUS April 8 2013 21: 29
    +3
    Quote: Cossack
    I quite often visit Ukraine


    You are - but I live (Kiev)


    Quote: Cossack
    even with the usual aggression topic (Russian, Russian, Russia or something like that).


    My wife called me yesterday and said - My neighbors stopped greeting her when she found out that I was in Russia (advanced training)

    Quote: Cossack
    Or all your impressions are based on knowledge from the network, and you judge Ukraine and its citizens by the words of others?


    Do you think there is little truth on the net?
    And a Ukrainian can write about himself on the forum.

    You should not develop a conflict because each quarrel alienates people from each other
    1. Conepatus
      Conepatus April 8 2013 21: 45
      -1
      I also live in Ukraine (Khmelnitsky region). It seems that we even belong to Western Ukraine. We even have a branch of the Svoboda party. 1 Nitsche.Za all the time "Square" not a single tension.
    2. Oleg
      Oleg April 8 2013 22: 08
      0
      My wife called me yesterday and said - Neighbors stopped greeting her when they found out that I was in Russia (advanced training) [/ colo
      Rave...
      1. Conepatus
        Conepatus April 8 2013 22: 12
        0
        Definitely. You might think that the neighbors did not know about working in Russia before. Most likely they stopped greeting each other for another reason, but this is no longer our business.
    3. Good man
      Good man April 8 2013 23: 51
      +1
      Quote: O_RUS
      My wife called me yesterday and said - My neighbors stopped greeting her when she found out that I was in Russia (advanced training)

      Here, of course, they often write fudge, but your nonsense is just insanely fantastic. This does not happen in Kiev by 300%.
    4. Cossack
      Cossack April 9 2013 00: 19
      0
      I will answer the points.
      1. Yes, I visit, but do not live in Ukraine. But many of my friends live there in many cities, namely: Kiev, Sumy, Nikolaev, Kerch, Zaporozhye, T
      Yernopol, Odessa, Kherson, Kirovograd. This
      living people I meet, not internet friends. And by the way, 90% of them are Ukrainians.
      2. I think that you are very unlucky with your neighbors, unless of course you lie. And I will add that during the service I saw how once the good neighbors did not just stop greeting, but killed each other in very sophisticated ways ... Not God forbid anyone like that. And the other neighbors hid and saved really risking their lives ...
      3. In the network, of course, there is truth, but also there is an incredible concentration of all kinds of scoundrels in it, such as provocateurs, liars, paid trolls and just unofficial idiots. market ", which many people use with success.

      I am contemptuous and disgusted, for example, a Muscovite talking about "mean" ho-ah or a Lviv resident screaming about "damned" mos-yah, but both who saw Ukraine and Russia only on the TV screen and the monitor of their computer.
      1. O_RUS
        O_RUS April 9 2013 01: 05
        +3
        Quote: Cossack
        On the Internet, you can blatantly lie and insult without fear of "answering for your bazaar", which many people use with success.

        I agree with you
        And the coms confirm that. Here are just the initiators of this (overwhelmingly) Ukrainians.

        More rolik said -
        Quote: rolik
        it is a distinctive feature to consider all those to blame for their troubles except themselves, losers in life. Ukraine is a state - a loser, which profuced everything that was given to him at birth. And now everyone is to blame for this, except for the broad ones themselves.
        As the saying goes:
        - To a bad dancer ... the primary sexual sign prevents dancing.

  • O_RUS
    O_RUS April 9 2013 00: 57
    0
    Quote: Good man
    This does not happen in Kiev by 300%.


    ... alas, there is. A forum fighter cannot guarantee its adequacy, not to mention more.

    Quote: Good man
    I advise you to return home faster and ask neighbors what your wife did in your absence ...


    firstly: you do not judge other women by your wife (sister or mother)

    and secondly: we travel together. I earn enough, my wife may not work. And she called me, walking around the courtyard of our house, I was with guests on the terrace

    1. Good man
      Good man April 9 2013 01: 14
      0
      Well then, it’s clear why your neighbors don’t want to say hello. It is not connected with where you work. The question is closed laughing
      1. O_RUS
        O_RUS April 9 2013 01: 17
        0
        mean money?
        1. Good man
          Good man April 9 2013 09: 27
          +1
          Quote: O_RUS
          mean money?

          I mean that part of your message that you or the moderator deleted. I also have a neighbor with whom I stopped greeting and this is not connected with the place of work. This is due to what kind of person he is ...
    2. Conepatus
      Conepatus April 9 2013 11: 20
      -2
      Actually, a little higher, you wrote that when your wife called you, you were in Russia for further training. And the neighbors allegedly found out about this and stopped greeting her. And now you write that you were on the terrace and your wife was walking around the yard. Why even call if you meet in a couple of meters?
      You either write down what you wrote about on a piece of paper, or first read your previous comments. You are our true laughing
      1. O_RUS
        O_RUS April 9 2013 22: 23
        0
        yes .... conepatus ... your limitation must be given credit request

        the yard is large and the terrace (you know what it is?) is on a different level. And the situation is not isolated.

        Quote: Conepatus
        Why even call if you meet in a couple of meters?

        and you don’t need to understand ... actually it's not your business

        Well, the situation ... went to the website to read articles ... and it feels like amnesty is in the madhouse today
        1. Conepatus
          Conepatus April 9 2013 22: 33
          0
          The yard may be large, only you wrote that they were in Russia during the call. And you find yourself on the terrace.
          Maybe I’m limited, but you don’t scrabble either. First write one thing, and then the exact opposite. Have a bite. laughing
          1. O_RUS
            O_RUS April 9 2013 22: 54
            0
            winked I hoped that you had exhausted all your stupidity ... and you continued. It surprises me
  • Smirnov Vadim
    Smirnov Vadim April 9 2013 22: 39
    0
    Comment check
  • de klermon
    de klermon April 10 2013 03: 36
    +1
    Enchanted is some kind of post - the president of Ukraine ... Kuchma, Yushchenko, Yanukovych - people, it seems, are different, they speak differently, they campaigned against each other, and when I become president, they do the same thing! The feeling is that if the next president is not Yanukovych, but, for example, Yakubovich, then the result will remain the same! With its multi-vector nature, Ukraine over the past 20 years has been reminiscent of a tank that unfolds endlessly on the spot: a little more, and even 10 armored vehicles will not be pulled out of the foundation pit, which this tank will similarly dig for itself! Well, and the army ... To reform it, you need to understand why it is needed, and the Ukrainian authorities, in my opinion, do not even imagine it, and even 20 years! By the way, in order to reform something, this must be something! ..
    PS It’s painful and insulting for you, Little Russian brothers, the tea is not strangers, and you will still have to restore the destroyed together!