The Viking Fleet Supply Dispute

10 261 145
The Viking Fleet Supply Dispute

After I wrote an article about the food supply of the Viking fleets, in which I went over professional historians, they started arguing with me. It is good that they argue, because it is absolutely necessary. The entire greatness of classical European science stood precisely on disputes, sometimes very fierce ones, clashes of theories and concepts.

And so I was told that, it turns out, you can’t ruin the lives of professional historians. They are so wonderful that you can't touch them. Meanwhile, the side that has lost the dispute is faced with a ruined life. For example, he has been asserting some theory all his life, has written many publications, has defended a dissertation... And now it turns out that this theory is worthless, since it is based on false premises. The collapse of all scientific life. Therefore, disputes are not at all a harmless thing.



However, have the courage to admit your wrongness, without falling into resentment, a desire for revenge, or a desire to crush the victorious opponent with administrative or social methods, such as organizing a persecution. I do not consider it shameful to admit your wrongness, and I have had to do this in print, although not in this topic, but in the topic of famine in Kazakhstan. But for this I need very compelling arguments.

Tons of bones


Speaking of arguments, I was accused here of not taking into account the role of hunting and fishing in food supply.

Good. There is more than enough material characterizing the meat diet of various settlements of the Viking Age. These are tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of animal bones. In Birka in Sweden, for example, 5,5 tons of bones were collected. All this is analyzed by animal species, and in general the direction of "livestock archeology" is developing, which uses methods up to and including isotope analysis.

So, the overwhelming majority of animal bones from these settlements belong to domestic cattle: cattle, pigs, sheep and goats.

For example, in Hedeby, Denmark: 47,3% cattle, 14,3% sheep and goats, 37,1% pigs. For everything else, including birds, fish, dogs and cats - 1,1% bones. Interestingly, there is no fish, although Hedeby is located on the shore of a sea bay.

In Scandinavian-occupied York, England, the picture is the same: 59% cattle, 21,7% sheep and goats, 12,1% pigs. Everything else is 7,2%. There is fish, but only 0,2% bones.

Dorestad at the mouth of the Rhine: 64,6% cattle, 14,5% sheep and goats, 12,1% pigs. Everything else - 8,8%, also including horses, dogs and cats, birds, etc. animals. There is no fish either, neither sea nor river. Although it would seem so.
Paviken, Gotland. It seems to be a seaport... However, 40% of the identified bones are cattle, 6,5% sheep and goats, 3,5% pigs. Fish bones are vanishingly rare.

Kaupang, Norway. There, researchers had to work hard to collect poorly preserved bone remains. But here too, the overwhelming majority of bones belonged to pigs, cattle, sheep, and goats. Researchers identified 70,8 bones, but found only five wild reindeer bones. Kaupang has a high proportion of fish bones — 42% of the identified bones, mostly herring and cod. But there are no bones of freshwater fish, despite the fact that Kaupang is located near rivers.


Reconstruction of Kaupang

Or take the settlement of Tornimäe on the island of Saaremaa. Up to 91% of the bones are domestic animals, about 6% are seals, and about 1% are fish bones, and only freshwater ones. And this is despite the fact that Saaremaa is located in the middle of a marine fishing area. Think what you want.

This is, of course, far from exhaustive statistics, but it generally paints the picture of the situation. The basis of the meat diet was represented by domestic cattle, and not wild animals at all. Any preparations of game, and especially on the industrial scale that were required to supply fleets Vikings of a hundred ships or more, would certainly have yielded a higher percentage of wild animal bones, which would have been noticed by researchers. Especially if these wild animal bones were dumped somewhere in one pile or were confined to a certain layer.

The objection itself was methodologically incorrect. Possibility is not an argument. To speak definitely, one must operate with firmly proven facts, in this case osteological materials. It is possible that places of slaughter and cutting up of wild animals can be found somewhere on the coast of Sweden or Norway. If such places are discovered, we will consider them.

But so far it has been proven that in the large port settlements of the Viking Age, where, obviously, the Viking fleets were supplied with food, clothing and other supplies, there are almost no bones of wild animals, which means that any kind of mass harvesting of game for meat was not practiced.

This has a simple economic explanation: livestock is available; an experienced buyer could tell by eye how much meat would come out of the livestock presented to him. But how much would be hunted, how much meat would come out, and whether it would be enough to cover needs - this is very difficult to say in advance.

Fish into flour


The objection to fishing is the same as to hunting: opportunity is not an argument. I have a counter-objection related to the fact that fish is a perishable product. Traditional methods of processing and preserving it, described, for example, by B.A. Heinemann, did not make fish a product with a long shelf life. Smoked fish was stored for 3-7 days, salted fish in brine - from 15 to 30 days, dried fish - up to 4 months. Only dried salmon could be stored for a year.

Thus, fish caught during the summer-autumn of one year could not be used the following year; it did not have an expiration date. Hence the conclusion. The ship's rations could have included either dried salmon, which was caught in the Eastern Baltic, in the Gulf of Finland and in Lake Ladoga, or freshly caught, smoked or salted cod. Looking at the composition of the osteological material, we have no reason to assert that fish made up a significant share of the ship's rations or even replaced meat.

In general, it is surprising that in settlements located right on the shore of the Baltic Sea, they almost never ate fish, although they undoubtedly caught it. I put forward the following explanation for this strange fact, as usual, extravagant. I think that the fishermen did not bother with preserving the fish they caught, but immediately processed it into fish meal, which they sold as feed for domestic animals. Everything goes into fish meal, it is in a certain sense a waste-free production, and the shelf life of fish meal in good packaging, for example, a tightly sealed barrel, is about a year.

So a fisherman must think about how to sell his catch in a few days before it starts to stink. But he slowly makes fish meal, puts it in barrels, takes it out and slowly sells it in winter and spring before the start of the new fishing season. Fish meal is the most important component of mixed feed for livestock. If this is so, then the absence of fish bones in the materials of coastal settlements becomes clear.

The Norwegian Kaupang, located on the shore of Viksfjord, in the vicinity of Larvik, was in different conditions and was forced to eat fish. The fact is that Vestfold, where this Kaupang is located, is a combination of sea, rocks and forest, in which there is very little free land for plowing and meadows, and the soil there is rocky. On the populated coast, forest-free spaces are approximately 30-40% of the total area, and this is after a thousand years of logging. In ancient times, there were more forests, less free land, accordingly, they could not keep a lot of cattle there, due to this circumstance, they ate ocean herring and cod.


A photo from the Kaupang excavations shows what the soil is like there

There was a fair amount of fish in Kaupang, so ships could take fish supplies on board there. But whether there was or not, we cannot prove it for sure.

Combat missions


Finally, the often-stated claim that the Vikings could hunt and fish during their expeditions is not only methodologically incorrect (possibility is not an argument), but also essentially absurd. A military expedition is not a pleasure cruise; each ship and crew had their own combat missions. This is obvious if you think about it.

Combat missions, although we know nothing about them, were varied, and this follows from the very essence of military affairs, especially in such a complex modification as landing from sea to land.

Reconnaissance. This is reconnaissance of enemy forces, their location and intentions; reconnaissance of attack targets, and, what is very important, reconnaissance of approaches to the coast and targets. In my opinion, the Vikings devoted a great deal of attention and time to this third type of reconnaissance, which included observation of winds, currents, tides, shallows, rivers and other things.

When you have tidal variations of 5-6 meters, as in the Seine estuary, it means that the hydrography of the coast changes dramatically. In a convenient bay during high tide, you can end up on a sandbank, helpless, during low tide. Or, conversely, the tide can carry ships away from a convenient bay during low tide. During low tide, dangerous sandbanks, rocks, banks can appear. And so on. For a successful attack, especially by a large squadron, it is necessary to conduct a thorough hydrographic and meteorological reconnaissance of the combat area. This is the allocation of ships and crews for a long time.


A modern reconstruction of a medium-sized Viking ship. In the comments under the previous article there was a discussion about the drakkar's ability to sail downwind. This ship, as you can see, sails close-hauled.

Landing. This definitely included not only landing of warrior detachments on the shore, but also provision of their actions on the shore, including food. Following the warriors, a kitchen team landed on the shore and some of the supplies were unloaded. And this must be foreseen, and not rely on trophies. Food in a threatened area can be taken out, or spoiled, or taken under increased protection, as during the war against the "Great Heathen Army" in England. The tasks also included protecting the ship's anchorages from attacks from land and sea, collecting the wounded and caring for them, collecting trophies, guarding prisoners, minor repairs to ships, and so on and so forth. If a ship landed about 50-60% of the crew as a landing force, then the rest had so many tasks and duties that there was neither time nor free hands for fishing or hunting.

And one always had to keep one's ears open - for the enemy, an attack on the camp and the destruction of the ships meant the complete defeat of the invading pagans.

Cases where the Vikings suffered defeat due to their carelessness not only happened, but were even recorded in chronicles.

Convoy. Since the wars with Christians were waged for many years in a row, there were undoubtedly transport tasks: delivering food and supplies to distant forward bases, such as Dublin in Ireland, transferring reinforcements, picking up and transporting the wounded and sick, transporting especially valuable trophies and prisoners. These shipments had to be guarded and accompanied, that is, escorted.


As we can see, there were many combat missions in hostile waters and on enemy territory, but the Vikings did not have an abundance of people. In land armies, numerous servants followed the army, taking on rear and auxiliary functions, but the Vikings on ships did not have such an opportunity at all. If we talk about fishing, then only in large squadrons was it possible to allocate 1-2 ships under protection for fishing, if there was some urgent need for it.

It is for this reason that I believe that hunting and fishing during the Vikings' military campaigns, if they did occur, were very rare and did not have a significant impact on food supplies. Moreover, they were not an integral part of the Viking fleet's food supply.
145 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +9
    3 May 2025 05: 13
    Quote: Dmitry Verkhoturov
    they started arguing with me
    No one argued with you, but simply drew your attention to the fact that before writing such an article, it is necessary to study all the sources in more detail.
  2. +8
    3 May 2025 05: 21
    Or take the settlement of Tornimäe on the island of Saaremaa. Up to 91% of the bones are domestic animals, about 6% are seals, and about 1% are fish bones, and only freshwater ones. And this is despite the fact that Saaremaa is located in the middle of a marine fishing area. Think what you want.
    / / / /
    In general, it is surprising that in settlements located right on the shore of the Baltic Sea, they almost never ate fish, although they undoubtedly caught it. I put forward an explanation for this strange fact, as usual, extravagant. I think that the fishermen did not bother with preserving the fish they caught, but immediately processed it into fish meal, which they sold as feed for domestic animals.

    wassat
    We need to conduct a thought experiment, or better yet, a natural one. Yes .
    Buy for barbecue feel salmon carcasses and pork/beef/lamb (okay, not carcasses, but with bones) of the same weight.
    Amidst the cries of relatives request and acquaintances throw gnawed bones into the corner of the area where the barbecue is taking place.
    After a couple of days, you'll be amazed at how good the huge beef/pork bones and lamb ribs look and how little of the fish backbone is left.
    good
    Wash down this deed and knowledge.
    drinks
    Clean up after the experiment and wash down the knowledge once again.
    drinks drinks

    P.S. I am watching the "battle of the masters" on SABZh with curiosity.
    1. +8
      3 May 2025 06: 06
      After a couple of days, you'll be amazed at how good the huge beef/pork bones and lamb ribs look and how little of the fish backbone is left.
      Bravo, colleague !!! good
    2. +9
      3 May 2025 06: 16
      One can only wonder: why are fishing hooks and harpoon tips found in Neolithic sites, practically in commercial quantities, but there are almost no fish remains?
      1. +3
        3 May 2025 06: 28
        hi
        It's a rhetorical question, but it can be answered.
        drinks
        "...any body can be preserved under suitable conditions, regardless of the content of hard and soft parts, but suitable conditions for the preservation of soft parts and brittle hard parts are much rarer than suitable conditions for the preservation of massive hard parts."
        "Taphonomy (from the Greek τάφος — "grave, burial" and νόμος — "law") is a science that is a subdivision of paleontology, studying the patterns of burial of organisms. It analyzes preserved fossils and relies on the results of studying various other disciplines, which include chemistry and biochemistry, geology, biophysics and physiology. The term "taphonomy" as well as the foundations of the scientific discipline were developed by the Russian scientist Ivan Antonovich Efremov in the 1940s - 1950s [1]"
        https://znanierussia.ru/articles/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F
        1. +7
          3 May 2025 06: 34
          I'm talking about the same thing. But Verkhoturov doesn't know about taftonomy. Calculators, they are like that, they calculate well, but reading is not for them.
          1. +10
            3 May 2025 06: 52
            Anton, I greet you! Good morning everyone!
            I will refer to my archaeological experience. We dug in Old Ladoga, under the guidance of that same A. A. Kirpichnikov. Layer: early 10th century. Of course, we did not find fish bones. laughing
            But...there are mountains of fish scales, perfectly preserved. Right in the cultural layer...
            They just threw it out with a pile of earth...not to a museum, to a storage facility, right? laughing
            But I will support the author in this:
            "that hunting and fishing during the military campaigns of the Vikings, if they happened at all, were very rare"

            When you can get food by plundering the territory, why hunt? laughing
            Best regards,
            hi
            1. +3
              3 May 2025 07: 14
              under the leadership of that same A. A. Kirpichnikov.
              The author contrasts himself with that same Kirpichnikov.
              My respect, Edward!
            2. +3
              3 May 2025 08: 39
              Good morning guys!
              I'll put in my two cents into the discussion.
              Vikings/Varangians and others like them were pragmatic guys, where they robbed, and where provisions they preferred to buy. It is necessary to note the flexibility of these guys, in one campaign they managed to both rob and fight for hire, sell the loot and screw the employer!!!
              However, joint hunts between employers and Vikings are also mentioned in sources. Mainly at the wintering places of the "guests".
              1. +4
                3 May 2025 09: 13
                Vladislav welcome!
                To be precise, I don't really remember about the "Viking" hunts.
                In "The Circle of the Earth" there is a story about a procurement campaign in the north of Norway for furs and reindeer. They also sewed "armor" for themselves from reindeer skins.
                But strictly speaking, about those who have not encountered this in Wiki or Vikings. Although I will not deny it.

                hi
              2. +5
                3 May 2025 10: 00
                The Scandinavians had this nice custom - strandhug. In theory, this is when those who stayed at home had to supply those who were going on a campaign with food and some property. In practice, the Vikings would sail up to a neighboring village and announce extortions. It's clear - they took what was best and what was less of a pain in the ass. That is, cattle, cheese, beer, etc.

                Well - or if the villagers had something to say in response, they would get punched in the face and sail off to get supplies somewhere else... Custom is custom - but giving yours to all sorts of slobs was also not a joy... Although - judging by the excerpts, if they returned with loot, then in turn it seemed like a rule of decent behavior to share with neighbors.. In general - as I understand it, everything was individual. They could rob under the guise of the law, and where neighbors could voluntarily give away food, counting on gifts later..
                1. +3
                  3 May 2025 10: 12
                  The Scandinavians had such a nice custom - strandhug.
                  In fact, "coastal law" was not the prerogative of the Scandinavians and had a diametrically opposite direction.
                  Hello Paul!
                  1. +4
                    3 May 2025 11: 19
                    hi
                    No - coastal law is not quite the same. It's pure robbery. And strandhug is a ritual-voluntary thing in theory. Like investing in an expedition - you give them food and equipment, and they'll share the loot... Although in practice - of course, it often turned out to be robbery... Under the guise of custom.

                    By the way, the famous Rollo was declared an outlaw in his homeland at the Thing, apparently because he got too carried away collecting strandhug from his neighbors...
                    1. +3
                      3 May 2025 11: 24
                      The pedestrian was not harmed in any way by this "cruel" treatment.
                      1. +4
                        3 May 2025 11: 49
                        Well, not everyone was so lucky. Harald Harfagr chased the brave Vikings around the zone like a pea coat. Including for their addiction to strandhug. And in general for their craving for all sorts of evil. But only a few managed to settle down successfully in foreign lands.
                      2. +2
                        3 May 2025 12: 08
                        Harald Harfagr chased the brave Vikings around the prison zone like a pea coat.
                        Did a man who declared himself "the Jarl of all Norwegians" have any other choice than to suppress the hotbeds of separatism, of which the Sikonungs were the most prominent representatives?
                      3. +6
                        3 May 2025 12: 26
                        Of course he did the right thing... But it's interesting - Harald is supposedly a great ruler, the other Westerners too, but let's say Ivan Vasilyevich, who drove out the insolent boyars, is a bloody tyrant... Why is that?
                      4. +4
                        3 May 2025 12: 40
                        I don't remember Beautiful Hair ever being called the Great...
                        As for Ivan the Terrible - this is a lie and slander of envious people! Well, the man had childhood trauma, and sometimes madmen sat on the thrones of France and England!
      2. +6
        3 May 2025 12: 06
        Hi, Anton. It is not surprising to me that fish bones are not found in archeology. I did not participate in excavations, but as an experienced summer resident I can say. After 3-5 years, a compost heap burns out almost completely, even if you do not dig it up annually to speed up oxidation. Before adding compost to plants, I sift it on a mesh and have a good idea of ​​what does not rot. These are bones and fats of cattle, sometimes birds, more often turkey drumsticks, cherry, plum, apricot pits. Branches, grass, husks, etc. are completely converted into compost. Fish remains are never left. And I know for sure that spines, heads, and other remains of fish up to 2 kg have ended up there.
        1. +5
          3 May 2025 12: 12
          There are never any fish leftovers.
          Only the author doesn't know about it.
          Good afternoon, Vladimir!
          1. +4
            3 May 2025 14: 49
            I think the author knows everything. But he has a method for achieving the truth - to stand to the end under the banner (opinion) raised by his own hands. He has excellent materials that cannot be faulted. And there are theories, to put it mildly, probabilistic, and he likes to defend them to the end.
            1. +3
              3 May 2025 15: 08
              I suggested to the author, under the material about Jeanne (although I liked the idea of ​​the naughty girl), to leave out the excursions into the Middle Ages, due to complete ignorance of the historical realities of the era. It turned out to be unheard.
              You can't get into history with just a calculator, it doesn't work that way.
      3. +2
        4 May 2025 13: 27
        1. That's where a ton of them pop up in the wash. It's especially fun if the ground is swampy and if the main target was pike. 9-15 kg of pike bones in a couple of weeks from an excavation site of two dozen square meters is the norm. True, this applies more to the Mesolithic, in the Neolithic there was no wash everywhere, and it was also different. Medievalists, for example, stupidly dump unsifted soil on a tray and squirt from a hose. And all because they often dig in urban conditions, or large expeditions, there are opportunities to organize a generator and a pump.

        This is not like straining water through a sieve in a stream.

        In the Paleolithic, by the way, they practically didn't eat fish, if there is anything there, then most often plates and vertebrae of sturgeon. Meanwhile, there and sifting in three syts, and washing in two - this is the rule. Then there are nuances. But yes, I would like to see how doctors (that is, medievalists) will wash the soil from the garbage with the bones of horned animals. They are with a pool in size and depth of several meters.

        My verdict - and I understand the methodology and nuances of conducting field work in archeology at all periods a little above the hospital average - the author, so to speak, confused the toilet and the jacuzzi, and used the latter for the purpose of the former.

        By the way, bone and horn harpoons are, again, a more Mesolithic thing, and they are not for fish. They are for deer, to get stuck. They are typical mostly for sites that are based on brought stone raw materials. At sites where there are less than a hundred kilometers to flint outcrops or the necessary pebbles, there are no such tools, because they are not needed.

        A light spear with a light flint will fly right through a large fish, they are much sharper than metal ones. And for smaller fish, a bow with an arrow on a string will suffice.
    3. +10
      3 May 2025 07: 30
      Clean up after the experiment and wash down the knowledge once again.
      So you can experiment until you get green Vikings... Which is apparently what happened to the author.
      1. +2
        4 May 2025 13: 31
        In general, the diet during life is determined not by what you managed to dig up in the trash, but by analyzing tartar and enamel layers. It also works like annual rings. The method is not ancient, but it is not yesterday either.

        I'm not sure that it reached medievalists en masse, it's not widespread here either. But what I've come across says that the Icelanders ate fish, and how, but the Greenlanders practically didn't eat it. However, the former have survived in their descendants to this day, and the latter died of starvation and were finished off by the Eskimos.
    4. +8
      3 May 2025 12: 28
      Wildcat (Уладькет), respected, 3x3zsave (Anton) wrote briefly and wonderfully: "Bravo, colleague!!!" I agree with him 202% and will add my 5 cents... Vikings' dinner on the shore in the evening not in the village, in the morning they sailed away. As soon as they moved away from the shore - the first thing to fly to the fire pit will be seagulls: blue and silver. What will they pick up first? Fish remains. Then - a raven, he will sort out both fish bones and animal bones, then - gray crows. Rodents will come running: (with the dispersal of both gray and black rats in Europe, scientists have question after question and whether there were rats in Denmark, Britain, Germany, Sweden in the 9th-12th centuries, no one can say for sure) mice and voles will clean the bones at night. An ermine or a weasel will come running, a fox will come running. The clearing around the fire pit will become ecologically clean in about a week... I myself had the chance to prepare sushchik from roach (sushnik is the name for oven-dried fish in the south of our region and in Vologda) on a commercial lake in the Plesetsk district of my native Arkhangelsk region in June. On the same lake, men prepared sushchik from perch in May. I know that in the Kargopol district, sushchik was prepared from smelt. Sushchik was stored for a year and a year and a half. The author indicates the shelf life of dried fish at 4 months. The Vikings were stupid people, imbeciles or oligophrenics? And they didn't protect dried fish from water during the campaign?..."The ship's rations could include either dried salmon, which was caught in the Eastern Baltic, in the Gulf of Finland and in Lake Ladoga, or freshly caught, smoked or salted cod." But Atlantic salmon (salmon) during the Viking era spawned all over Scandinavia, Germany, Britain, on the Shetland and Faroe Islands, in Iceland, Greenland, in the northeast of North America. And it's somehow surprising that archaeologists have not found Atlantic sturgeon bones anywhere! And have archaeologists found sturgeon bugs or do they not know what they are?
      1. +4
        3 May 2025 12: 50
        with the spread of both the grey and black rats in Europe, scientists have question after question and no one can say for sure whether there were rats in Denmark, Britain, Germany, Sweden in the 9th-12th centuries)
        The brown rat certainly did not exist during the Nomannic expansion. It is an invasive species brought to Europe after the start of the Crusades.
        Good afternoon, Eugene!
        1. +3
          3 May 2025 14: 21
          Anton, good day! Biologists argue even today about which rat came where and when, there are not enough written sources... Even today, science has difficulty recording the distribution of animals and birds. According to Wikipedia and identification guides, the great bittern does not nest in the Arkhangelsk region. I heard it for the first time 5-7 years ago southwest of the city in the reeds of the Shirshema River. 3-4 years ago, we noted its voice on Yagry Island. A great bittern was caught in a camera trap installed in the Yagrinsky pine forest in 2024. I photographed a white tit for the first time in the summer about 5 years ago near the railway to Nyonoksa. I also photographed a common azure tit for the first time about 5 years ago, but both in the summer and in the winter at feeding troughs. And in March of this year, my wife and I were walking along Stroiteley Boulevard and saw 3 common azure tits. According to all identification guides, blue tits do not nest in the Arkhangelsk region. Tits, I understand, are small birds. Common coots nest on lakes and pits near Severodvinsk for more than 10 years. According to all identification guides, we do not have them. And what about the harlequin duck, which has been flying to the Peter and Paul Fortress since 2021? For many years, the western border of Siberian chipmunks in the Arkhangelsk region was along the Northern Dvina. Since 2007, it was noted in the Kenozersky National Park, since the 2010s, the chipmunk was noted in the closed administrative-territorial entity "Mirny", and after 2015 it crossed the Vologda-Arkhangelsk railway in the Plesetsk district and settled as far as the Onega River...
          Yes, the author has apparently never made fish meal. Why would a fisherman spend a lot of time making fish meal and selling it to cattle breeders when he can dry the fish, get a dryer and store it for 1-2 years as a base for fish soup? If you can't make a fire on the boat, get a handful of dryer and eat it like salty crackers.
          1. +4
            3 May 2025 15: 03
            Biologists still argue today about which rat came where and when, but there are few written sources...
            I disagree here. Because there is a clear marker for rodents, namely a domestic animal designed to hunt them. Before the Crusades, weasels did a great job with this role. With the appearance of the brown rat in Europe, which is 20% superior to its black European counterpart in terms of "performance characteristics", it became unclear who was hunting whom. Thus, the "cat star" rose!
            1. +4
              3 May 2025 16: 10
              It's interesting about weasels and cats.
              I will note that sometimes it is written that weasels, as pets, were used in rich families to... attract fleas (they say they are warmer and fleas run from people to animals). This story is told by art historians next to paintings of noble ladies with a weasel in their arms.
              And I'll add a few words about rats.
              The study, carried out by the University of York in collaboration with the University of Oxford and the Max Planck Institute, is the first ancient genetic study of the species (Rattus rattus), often known as the ship rat.
              By analysing DNA from ancient black rat remains found in archaeological sites from the first to the 17th centuries in Europe and North Africa, scientists have pieced together new information about how rat populations dispersed following the ebb and flow of human trade, urbanism and empire.
              According to one study, there are two waves of penetration of these rodents into Europe with a temperate climate: 1
              The first probably accompanied the Roman expansion to the north in the first centuries BC.
              The second was in the medieval period, from the 8th to 10th centuries AD. Remains of black rats were found throughout the Roman Empire in the 1st to 5th centuries AD, but rarely beyond its northern borders. With the fall of the empire, beginning in the 5th century, traces of the rodents' presence became fewer and fewer. In the Balkans and Anatolia, black rats continued to exist until at least the 6th century.
              By the 13th century AD, black rats were present throughout much of Europe, and by the late 14th century they had reached southern Finland. The rodents remained widespread and widespread in Europe until at least the 18th century, before their populations declined, likely due to competition from the newly arrived brown rat.
              Brown rats (Rattus norvegicus), also known as Norway rats, originate from Central Asia. They began to spread around the world as a result of trade and shipping. Brown rats first appeared in Europe in the late 18th century, probably through ports associated with trade routes.
              Brown rats have quickly adapted to urban environments and have become the dominant rat species in Europe, displacing black rats (Rattus rattus) from many of their usual habitats. They prefer to live in basements, sewers and other places where there is access to food and shelter.
              Brown rats (Rattus norvegicus) can survive without food for 1 to 2 weeks, depending on environmental conditions and the animal's health. However, they can only survive without water for a few days, as water is essential for their metabolism. Under stress or in an unfavorable environment, this period may be reduced.
              1. +1
                3 May 2025 16: 29
                The question remains open: what type of plague pandemic was brought to Europe, both the first and the second?
                1. +3
                  3 May 2025 16: 40
                  Anton, I saw that no matter what you take on, even rats, the history of the Middle Ages appears from the shadows.
                  1. +3
                    3 May 2025 16: 45
                    What can I do, I love this era! I was going to write "instructions for squeezing out in the Middle Ages" for Violet, but work messed up all my plans (one and a half months without days off).
                2. 0
                  3 May 2025 16: 46
                  Surely the plague issue has been actively studied and there are answers, but the useful material should be sought in medical journals. And some knowledge is needed to translate narrow professional language into universal.
                  1. +2
                    3 May 2025 16: 52
                    only useful material should be sought in medical journals.
                    Not necessarily, there is a wonderful popular science two-volume work by Mikhail Supotnitsky, “Essays on the History of the Plague,” written in a very accessible language.
                    1. +1
                      3 May 2025 17: 27
                      We were discussing a narrow issue, and you gave a link to a fundamental study. Thank you. I looked at it - it's fascinating stuff. But where can I find so much time to realize all my interests...
                      1. +1
                        3 May 2025 17: 33
                        We were discussing a narrow issue, and you gave a link to a fundamental study.
                        Written by a professional for amateurs. Very easy to read. At one time, being interested in the history of epidemics, I accidentally came across it.
                      2. +2
                        3 May 2025 17: 37
                        It often happens. You think you'll clear something up in five minutes, but no. Curiosity takes you away and off you go.
                      3. +2
                        3 May 2025 17: 49
                        By the way, Vladimir, you had material about the Antikythera mechanism, the link contains interesting information on this topic:
                        https://vsluh.net/4966-argentinskie-uchenye-predlozhili-neozhidannuju-razgadku-tajny-antikiterskogo-mehanizma.html
                      4. 0
                        3 May 2025 18: 26
                        I don’t see anything new, and first of all, no evidence that the mechanism was of ancient origin, not medieval.

                        (And then the same people will giggle at conspiracy theorists and their fantasies about the "ancient lost civilizations of the Atlanteans from Sirius" - although they themselves are doing exactly the same thing)
                      5. 0
                        3 May 2025 18: 47
                        Thank you, I read this material but I didn't understand it Imagine: you turn the handle, watch the hands show the movement of the planets, but suddenly the gears break and everything stops. To continue, you need to manually reset the mechanism. To draw a modern analogy: something like rebooting a frozen computer. Considering that the date scale is calculated for a year, such a breakdown looks like an unfortunate mistake.
                        Here either I don't understand anything, or the authors compiled nonsense and also don't understand anything about the topic. Everything is wrong, everything can be argued with. Maybe there are translation errors.
                      6. +1
                        3 May 2025 18: 57
                        There may be errors in translation.
                        By the way, it is very possible! Especially if the material was originally in Spanish.
                      7. +1
                        3 May 2025 19: 44
                        In short, the questions regarding the material are as follows.
                        Firstly, several scientific groups are studying this thing. Who exactly can't turn the gears.
                        Secondly, there are several mathematical models that describe the mechanism's operation, I have not seen that they provide for a "restart" operation. So it's a matter of mechanics?
                        The shape of the teeth does not change or make the work of the pair of gear wheels unexpected. If 5 and 10 teeth - gear ratio 2. The shape of the tooth gives less friction and less wear (mostly).
                        There are several groups of researchers who have created, are creating and are planning to implement the mechanism. They are slightly different in the mat. model, completely different in execution from modeling the mat. model to a complete copy. (It seems they have not yet completed a very interesting project, one mechanic watchmaker is making with full immersion in the topic. Even starting with the production of authentic tools - cutters, files, drills). On which model should I "reboot"?
                        In addition, international conferences are organized on this device. Reports on achievements, exchange of opinions, at which conference who reported on this and what is the decision of the scientific community?
                      8. 0
                        3 May 2025 19: 51
                        Damn, Vladimir, I'm even afraid to say at what phrase you "lost" me! recourse feel crying
                      9. +1
                        3 May 2025 20: 40
                        Yes, I got carried away with the topic back then and only a small part of the materials made it into the article. And it all started with me trying to figure out how to show epicycles on a mechanism with a geocentric system, or, in other words, the reverse visible motion of some planets. In short, several tricky gears are introduced into the mechanism. But I had to read quite a lot and listen to damn scientific conferences on this mechanism.
                3. 0
                  3 May 2025 17: 54
                  For example, the "plague pandemic" might not have been a plague or a pandemic at all, since for some reason no similar pandemics were repeated in the future, although the plague pathogen did not change and antibiotics did not yet exist.
                  1. 0
                    3 May 2025 18: 03
                    Literally in 2023, an epidemic of bubonic plague was recorded in Northern Mongolia. The disease is well enough described and studied to claim that it was the plague that covered Eurasia in the first half of the XNUMXth century.
                    It's not entirely clear with the "Justinian plague", but most likely it was that too.
                    1. 0
                      3 May 2025 18: 13
                      "China and Mongolia have each reported three cases of bubonic plague"

                      Tyndex claims that there were as many as three sick people. Too pale for "plague".
                      Better explain why only 1855 million people died during the 12 epidemic, compared to 25 million in Europe. It was from this epidemic that the "plague skeptics" appeared.

                      And why, by the way, after the Justinian plague epidemic there were no outbreaks for hundreds of years? Did the pathogens dissolve into thin air? )))
                      1. +1
                        3 May 2025 18: 18
                        And have these "plague skeptics" not tried to compare the population of Europe in 1348 and England in 1855?
                      2. 0
                        3 May 2025 18: 24
                        Obviously, in 1855 the population was higher, which meant that the population density and the probability of infection were higher. Especially since the epicenter of the epidemic was Southeast Asia.
                      3. +1
                        3 May 2025 19: 06
                        The number of victims of the fourteenth-century pandemic in Asia cannot be calculated at all, except for the lengthy remarks of Chinese chroniclers.
                      4. +1
                        3 May 2025 18: 20
                        And why, by the way, after the Justinian plague epidemic there were no outbreaks for hundreds of years?
                        "Not recorded" does not mean "did not happen"
                      5. 0
                        3 May 2025 18: 23
                        This is, of course, possible, but reasoning of this kind is comparable to reasoning that the Egyptians had Wi-Fi. laughing laughing laughing
                      6. +2
                        3 May 2025 18: 26
                        And of course you want the autopsy results of every epidemiological fatal case for hundreds of thousands of years?
                      7. 0
                        3 May 2025 19: 19
                        If there were major outbreaks, there should have been chronicle evidence, monuments, mass graves. Since there were none, it means there were most likely no outbreaks.

                        However, there is also a simple explanation: there was no plague on such a scale under Justinian.
                      8. +2
                        3 May 2025 19: 45
                        The chronicle evidence is, if my sclerosis doesn’t fail me, Procopius of Caesarea.
                        Regarding monuments, do you need "plague solps"? Well, that was a thousand years later, and not in Byzantium, but in Europe, and not in "memory" of the plague, but against it.
                        As for mass graves, there are so many of them in the Constantinople area that Paris is silently smoking on the sidelines.
                        And the last:
                        However, there is also a simple explanation: there was no plague on such a scale under Justinian.
                        Of course, the "Justinian plague" did not have the same consequences as its medieval successor (by the way, the conditions for the outbreak of epidemics were the same), but microbiologists have no doubt that it was a plague. Read at least Supotnitsky or something...
                        Thank you for the fascinating discussion!
                      9. 0
                        3 May 2025 19: 50
                        Chronicle evidence is... Procopius of Caesarea.


                        What are you talking about? He lived during the Justinian Plague, but not later.

                        Regarding monuments, do you need "plague solps"?


                        Absolutely any monuments – steles, obelisks, churches...


                        As for mass graves, there are so many of them in the Constantinople area


                        So these are burials from the time of Justinian (I wonder how they were dated), and later?

                        You should at least read Supotnitsky...


                        When I get around to it, I'll read it.
              2. Fat
                +1
                3 May 2025 17: 11
                Quote: balabol
                Brown rats quickly adapted to the urban environment

                Boris Znachkov wrote about grey rats in detail in the magazine "Around the World"
                https://www.vokrugsveta.ru/vs/article/6159/
                The pasuk came to Europe from eastern China, where their "ancestors" still live. These water-loving creatures could have migrated not only with merchant ships, but also very likely with the Huns and other conquerors...
                1. +2
                  3 May 2025 17: 25
                  Yes, as far as I understand, these rodents gravitated towards steppes and cereals. They could migrate themselves following waves of droughts and moisture, the movement of people and the development of grain agriculture.
                  1. Fat
                    0
                    3 May 2025 17: 29
                    The brown rats all arrived, but they were more inclined to "meat" both before and now, so they grew fat during plague pandemics. And their black brothers are more inclined to vegetarianism...
                    1. +1
                      3 May 2025 17: 41
                      that's why they got fat during plague pandemics
                      This is unlikely. For rats, the plague is as lethal as for humans.
                      1. Fat
                        +1
                        3 May 2025 17: 50
                        Our "native" gray rat is by no means as susceptible to the plague pathogen as the black rat.
                      2. +1
                        3 May 2025 17: 57
                        The question of the virulence of Persilia pestis for brown rats is controversial, probably depending on the strain of the bacteria. They die in the same way as other species for which this infection is fatal. I cannot say from which strain exactly.
                    2. +2
                      4 May 2025 17: 02
                      There is another important point that for some reason is not taken into account by osteologists from archeology, although biologists from genetics have known about it since Soviet times.

                      The black rat is, as a rule, two species, identical in appearance, within one population. Approximately equal. One is mutated, with a doubled number of chromosomes. 22 and 44 respectively, if I remember the numbers exactly due to the long time since I read about it.

                      Accordingly, not all of them can reproduce and not with all of them, and their lifestyle is somewhat different from the usual "nests" of the brown rat, where a group of females with a weakly expressed hierarchy within the group is served by several visiting males. The black rat is simply more family-oriented. Hence the craving for plant food, for the brown rat's omnivorousness, pack work with a strict hierarchy within the pack is sometimes required. The level is "at the limit" for rodents, and they are far from being leaders in intellectual talents among mammals.
            2. +3
              3 May 2025 16: 15
              3x3zsave (Anton), sir, the appearance of the gray rat in Europe by year is vague. During the excavations of Augusta, the bones of the gray rat were dated to the 1st century BC. Pallas, from hearsay, described herds of gray rats swimming across the Volga after the earthquake in 1727. They were brought to England on Norwegian ships in 1728, but the Norwegians claim that in 1728 they did not have gray rats.... Regarding the weasel - also a question. Even today, not every person can clearly determine the one that flashed in the semi-darkness of the barn: was it a male weasel or a female ermine or a young male ermine, and a larger one - it could be a male ermine or a female forest (black) ferret. The painting "Lady with an Ermine" is, I think, by the great Leonard. In the arms of the lady is a domestic forest ferret. Probably, the forest polecat, wild or domesticated, could crush gray rats in the port cities of Europe in the 12th-16th centuries. And how widespread was the steppe polecat at that time? Today it lives in the North Caucasus, in Crimea, in Ukraine, along the Danube. And 700-900 years ago? Steppe and forest polecats interbreed in nature easily... It's all clear and understandable with the breeding of honoriks in the USSR... Gray rats naturally wander far. In 1993, I was walking with my family and my Airedale dog on the bank of the Solza River. He rushed forward. I thought - he smelled a hare. He ran to lie in the carrion. The gray rat grabbed a viper, which managed to bite the rat. They lay there for 3-4 days, the smell is appropriate. The dog was rolling his withers and back, swinging his paws in the air with pleasure. It was about 1300-1350 m to the last house in the village of Solza, about 1000 m to the lonely dacha. I dragged my stinking dog by the scruff and rump 200-220 meters to the Solza River. It took me about 10 minutes to wash him. A week later we were back at Solza. My dog ​​tried to run to that clearing. I barked at him, put him on the ground, and took him on a leash. How he dragged a viper and a gray rat across the clearing to that stinking place where there had already been no vipers or gray rats!... There are plenty of birds of prey on Solza: owls, and a goshawk had nested for many years, dogs and cats run around the village, and a rat ran so far through the forest...
              1. +2
                3 May 2025 16: 38
                He ran to roll around in the carrion
                My dog ​​(Labrador) is a big fan of gobbling up all sorts of junk on the street, but that's due to her breed.
                1. 0
                  4 May 2025 10: 49
                  3x3zsave (Anton), dear sir, maybe you missed something in raising your pet? After all, you worked a lot, spent a maximum of 2 hours a day walking the puppy, and that's what grew up - it grew up. I worked with Germans and Easterners that were born in kennels - they ate only in a cage, never on the street and nothing, they took something to eat from my hand while working. I got an Airedale at home during my correspondence studies, I was leaving the city for exam sessions. The wife of the idiot felt sorry for him (they also glued his poor little ears many times, as a result, his right ear was slightly higher than the left, the dog was not at all show-worthy in terms of exterior, although the pedigree was wow and ah, a champion on a champion and chasing a champion). As a result, if the dog went for a walk with me, he never picked up anything from the ground. As with the wife or the eldest daughter during the day, to pick up something from the ground and eat it - always please ... When passing the ZKS on the hand with the object the dog worked magnificently, the weight is not very large and the figurant, unlike the oriental, black terriers and giants, did not drop to the ground, but began to quickly tear the dress. robe with his front paws so that he tore the tarpaulin. A couple of times the guys who were figurants with training sleeves (so that the dog does not get used to the dress. suit), after training, had to treat rather deep scratches on the stomach, left by the claws of my dog ​​... I knew a very calm male collie. You would never think that this beautiful shaggy bright, charming person, when detaining a figurant became a real beast. And how he guarded the stroller with the owner's daughter! Although the collie for the last 50 years, in most cases, is a pampered indoor pet, good only for supplying wonderful wool for socks of children... My rascal with pleasure in spring and autumn rode on the corpses of seals and a baby beluga whale, which the sea threw ashore after storms. Even if at high tide the cold water completely covered the corpse - rushed to that place, only splashes in all directions. From my house to the bay is a little more than 500 m.
                  1. +1
                    4 May 2025 11: 03
                    Good morning Eugene!
                    My dog ​​is spoiled, of course, but that's not the point. It's just that Labradors have a characteristic feature called "stomach pit". In other words, the part of the brain responsible for satiety is partially atrophied. That's why they eat like crazy, if not controlled.
                    1. +1
                      4 May 2025 11: 06
                      Good morning, Anton! Never heard of such a thing. Thanks for the new knowledge! I have never worked with dogs of this breed and none of my friends had a Labrador at home. I often see fat dogs of this breed on walks.
                      1. +1
                        4 May 2025 11: 15
                        I often see fat dogs of this breed on walks.
                        This is precisely the result of improper feeding of the dog. Labradors themselves are not "slender", due to the specifics of breeding the breed, but if you let this go, you end up with a "hog". And if you do not take into account the problems with the joints of the paws, then by 8-9 years old they are a "jellyfish".
  3. +4
    3 May 2025 06: 09
    And so I was presented with the fact that, it turns out, you can't ruin the lives of professional historians. They are so wonderful that you can't touch them. Meanwhile, the side that is defeated in a dispute is faced with a ruined life. For example, he has been asserting some theory all his life, has written many publications, defended a dissertation... And now it turns out that this theory is worthless, since it is based on false premises. The collapse of all scientific life. Therefore, disputes are not at all a harmless thing.

    Author, I fully support! I would add that historians often serve the current government.
    And most importantly, there is no criterion of truth in history. You can't conduct an experiment. Therefore, mistakes are often made, and based on the "political" situation, correcting them is more expensive.

    And I enjoyed reading the series of articles. Everything is harmonious and logical. And then there is the boring citation of sources in which the devil himself cannot figure out who told the truth, who embellished, who kept silent and who lied.
    drinks
    1. +7
      3 May 2025 08: 53
      And I enjoyed reading the series of articles. Everything is harmonious and logical.

      Murphy's Law works -
      Any problem, even the most complex one, necessarily has a simple, easy to understand, wrong solution
      1. +3
        3 May 2025 09: 26
        Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
        Murphy's Law works -
        Any problem, even the most complex one, necessarily has a simple, easy to understand, wrong solution


        I like Chisholm's laws better. One of them is just on topic:

        People understand any proposal differently than the person who makes it.
        Consequences:
        1. Even if your explanation is so clear that it excludes any misinterpretation, there will still be someone who will misunderstand you.
        2. If you are sure that your action will be met with universal approval, someone will definitely not like it.
      2. Fat
        +3
        3 May 2025 10: 20
        Quote: Ivan Ivanych Ivanov
        Murphy's Law works -

        'Murphy was an optimist' - O'Toole's comment on the law...
  4. +1
    3 May 2025 06: 35
    Naturally, they caught fish and ate it.
    Fish scraps are a very good organic fertilizer.
    On the Aland Islands they catch roach, which is considered a trash fish and is used as fertilizer. On the islands the soil layer in the lowlands is up to a meter, so about 50 cm.
    Birds and small animals happily feed on fish leftovers.
    So the absence of fish remains in burials does not mean that they were not caught in industrial quantities.
    In Estonia, not so long ago, Baltic herring was used as food for fur-bearing animals that were bred.
    The article is a fat plus!
    1. 0
      3 May 2025 07: 21
      The Japanese actively used fish as fertilizer.

      A complete set of macroelements (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium).
    2. +3
      3 May 2025 13: 09
      In a number of countries of the Arabian Peninsula bordering the Red Sea, fish are used as a food supplement in the diet of cattle. The milk has a specific taste and smell.
      1. +3
        3 May 2025 13: 16
        Milk has a specific taste and smell.
        I don't remember if I told this episode...
        Once my brother bought a vodka called "Snow Crab" at Pyaterka with a terrible discount. The swill tasted like crab sticks! wassat
        Hello, Vlad!
      2. +5
        3 May 2025 14: 33
        Dear Mr. Kokhanka (Vladislav), sir, in the 19th century, in many places on the White Sea coast of the Kola Peninsula and in northern Karelia, dried fish heads were added to cows' drink. The meadows did not give much hay. History repeated itself on the White Sea coast during the Great Patriotic War, the livestock was preserved on the heads of the White Sea herring. In the 60s-70s, I helped my grandmother in the calf barn deliver buckets of small boiled potatoes on a cart. Although melioration began in the late 60s and the meadows began to give much more hay, there was a silo tower in the village near the farm and in the late 60s they made a concrete haylage trench.
        1. +2
          3 May 2025 19: 16
          Thanks did not know!
          I know the comment is short.
    3. +1
      4 May 2025 17: 06
      What, in Yakutia in some places they still use dried pike as firewood.
  5. Fat
    +5
    3 May 2025 07: 08
    Hello. We found very few fish bones... Did you find any chicken bones?
    1. There are plenty of recipes where fish and bird bones were turned into an edible product... For example, small smoked fish fried in oil, etc., etc.
    2. Fish waste is an excellent material for compost, and if you bury this waste under an apple tree, it will regularly delight you with a decent harvest...
    Thus, the absence of fish remains does not mean that the fish were used for flour.
    The author reproaches commentators for using assumptions, while he himself operates with complete freedom. "What is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull."
    Beauty. smile
    1. +4
      3 May 2025 07: 23
      In the first article, the author pulled the bird onto a sphere, taking as the basis for the Norman diet the six-month ration of a fishing vessel in the mid-19th century.
      1. +3
        3 May 2025 07: 42
        Considering that from Norway to England, past the Orkney Islands, it takes two, maximum three, days to travel.
        And then Scotland, England - I don't want to...if the local heating systems don't interfere.
        Of course, speaking scientifically, everything described "modernization of the historical process".
        deliver food and supplies to remote forward bases such as Dublin in Ireland, transport reinforcements, pick up and remove the wounded and sick, and remove particularly valuable trophies and prisoners.

        What bases? All the food supplies are in place, they came to Dublin and plundered Ireland, that's what they came here for, not to bring sausage and bacon from Trondheim.
        What reinforcements? In the campaigns or lidun, the militia of the whole people, participated or separate groups at their own risk. Where to take the wounded, to the army hospital in Nidaros? Trophies were dragged with them, if or until they returned home. Harald Severe Ruler went to England in 1066 and dragged with him all the riches, including the plundered in Byzantium, which went to King Harald, and from him, to William.
        1. +2
          3 May 2025 07: 49
          What bases? All the food supplies are in place, they came to Dublin and plundered Ireland, that's what they came here for, not to bring sausage and bacon from Trondheim.
          Given that the Normans also made quite a mark in Sicily, the logistics, according to the author, become a complete nightmare.
          1. +3
            3 May 2025 07: 52
            Given that the Normans also made quite a mark in Sicily, the logistics, according to the author, become a complete nightmare.

            good
            Automatic control systems and artificial intelligence were used to carry out complex logistics.
            1. +3
              3 May 2025 07: 58
              As well as the Huginn and Munin UAVs and the all-wheel drive (8x8) SUV Sleipnir.
          2. +2
            4 May 2025 17: 07
            "The Irish are just Scots, only poorer" (c) English proverb
      2. Fat
        +5
        3 May 2025 07: 48
        Hello, Anton. I read that article and even participated in the discussion. smile
        Correct calculations, with completely dubious initial data...
        A delightful thought experiment... No worse than Nosovsky and Fomenko.
        1. +1
          3 May 2025 07: 51
          No worse than Nosovsky and Fomenko.
          Exactly!!!
          Hello Borisych!
        2. +3
          3 May 2025 08: 57
          No worse than Nosovsky and Fomenko.


          The author, by the way, defended Fomenko as a “historian”.
  6. Fat
    +6
    3 May 2025 08: 58
    This little boat, as you can see, is sailing close-hauled.

    It is not visible! At best, it is a beam wind. It is possible and has been proven by reenactors.
    1. +6
      3 May 2025 09: 21
      It is not visible! At best, it is a beam wind. It is possible and has been proven by reenactors.

      That's true. We tried to sail in a beat-hauled position, but to do this you have to extend the luff of the sail on the oar as a support and firmly secure it. Then the sail becomes rigid - like a wing and it becomes possible to sail almost in a beat-hauled position. But it's very, very far from a steep beat-hauled position.
  7. +6
    3 May 2025 09: 34
    The Vikings were warriors first and foremost, or rather mobile sea robbers, not sedentary hunters and fishermen. All men went to serve, not to hunt or fish. They attacked, stole and ran. They ate it all up - and then raided again. Plus tribute and slaves from the conquered territories. That's how they lived. And fish bones are really worse preserved, apparently they have less calcium.
    1. +2
      4 May 2025 17: 11
      No. They were first and foremost farmers-colonizers, and secondly, mercenaries looking for work and robbing whatever they could rob along the way. If things worked out, they quickly and easily intermarried with the local nobility and merged their cultural traditions; in this regard, they are tolerant. This is how Normandy appeared, for example. And the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies appeared exactly according to the same scheme. The principles and mechanisms of Scandinavian expansion are easy to find online; there are a lot of works on the topic.
  8. BAI
    +4
    3 May 2025 14: 20
    1. The author is slightly exaggerating. The main objection was caused by his assertion that the Vikings dragged all their supplies with them. For the entire campaign. And then they objected to him that this was not so, that supplies were replenished. By plunder and hunting. 2 methods, and not just hunting.
    2.
    1. BAI
      +4
      3 May 2025 14: 36
      2.
      But so far it has been proven that in the large port settlements of the Viking Age, where, obviously, the Viking fleets were supplied with food, clothing and other supplies, there are almost no bones of wild animals, which means that any kind of mass harvesting of game for meat was not practiced.

      The most obvious fact is that meat in populated areas was primarily from domestic animals. Moreover, in populated areas, the bones of domestic animals accumulated over the years.
      From this the author concludes that during the campaign the Vikings ate only meat from domestic animals. Let's put aside the robbery, where domestic animals figure (which do not need to be stored for the entire duration of the campaign).
      Let's look at the wild ones. How many carcasses will the army need for ONE night? How many bones will be left of them in the morning, and how many bones will the wild animals (of which there were many) leave by the evening after the army leaves?
      What do bones from a city dump have to do with the possibility of determining the place where an army spent the night based on the bones of animals eaten?
      1. 0
        3 May 2025 23: 30
        In 1997, Dutch archaeologists were excavating in the center of the town of Zutphen on the banks of the right branch of the Rhine. In 882, the Vikings took and plundered the city of Deventer and looked into Zutphen, or as it was called then, located 16 km away.
        There, in the fire layer, skeletons of people were found, remaining in burnt and collapsed houses. In these houses and next to them there are many animal bones, and not far away archaeologists found a pit in which up to 1400 animal bones were dumped.
        Moreover, among the bones there were an unnaturally large number of skulls and limb bones of animals, mainly cows and calves. For example, in one of the houses, next to the skeleton of a woman, seven cow skulls and many limb bones were found.
        The picture is quite clear. The Vikings, having taken the village, began to slaughter the captured cattle. In order not to drag away the excess, they cut off the heads and limbs, which they threw on the spot, and carried away the carcasses.
        Here is an example of an archaeological trace of the Vikings' plunder of a captured settlement with all the necessary accessories: a layer of fire, skeletons of the killed, bones of animals butchered in a certain way. By the way, a similar dump of horse skulls was found at Rurik's settlement.
        But there are very few such examples, just these two, although a fair amount of excavations were carried out.

        Your efforts, and those of other commentators, amuse me greatly. You begin to discuss with pathos subjects of which you have no idea.
        Reliable knowledge about that era is obtained by patiently putting together a large mosaic of many individual facts, observations, and finds. And in order to put it all together, you need to look through many publications, articles, and monographs, and in 5-6 languages, because the same Poles or Swedes have a habit of publishing their research materials in their own languages.
        1. BAI
          +3
          4 May 2025 10: 24
          Here is an example of an archaeological trace of the plundering of a captured village by the Vikings with all the attendant

          You yourself gave an example that destroys your whole theory. The Vikings were engaged in robbery and they did not need to carry provisions for the entire campaign.
          Let me remind you of your initial statement - the Vikings took provisions with them for the entire duration of the campaign.

          100 peasant households per ship

          So, we have a ship for 30 people - a typical Viking battle drakkar - taken into account for our calculations. The duration of the voyage is from April to October, six months or 180 days. Such a ship needs to take on board:
          1. 0
            4 May 2025 10: 53
            One archaeological case, in my opinion, was mentioned a couple more times in the chronicles - and this is for 150 years of the Viking campaigns.
            If there were dozens of such cases, then it would be possible to assert something.
            But if this is not observed, then I have no reason to deviate from my theory.

            This case, if you did not understand, is specifically in opposition to you. Even a single act of mass slaughter of cattle, as you see, leaves discernible archaeological traces.
            1. BAI
              +2
              4 May 2025 11: 22
              Even a single act of mass slaughter of cattle,

              So hunting is not mass slaughter of livestock. You were told about this all day yesterday (we don't count the rats that took up half the discussion) - after hunting WILD animals, there will be no traces left.
              The talk (first of all) is about replenishing supplies by robbing the local population.
              And in general, confiscation of food (forced and voluntary) from the local population is the lot of all armies. There were even special detachments - foragers they are called.
              Food supplies = a large convoy, which severely limits the army's mobility.
              The troops carried the bare minimum, with the expectation of replenishing supplies on site.
              The most striking example is the campaign of Jebe and Subedei (Battle of Kalka). Each Mongol had a war horse and only TWO transport horses - for personal belongings and food.
              2 pack horses - is that enough for a multi-month trek without replenishment?
              1. +1
                4 May 2025 13: 05
                This was the rave yesterday all day. Of course, it remains. Archaeologists find and study the sites of mammoth slaughter in the Stone Age, and here they are telling me that supposedly "nothing remains" from the hunt.

                Ah, the topic has been changed. Now instead of fleets there are land armies. laughing
                What are you trying to achieve with such twists and turns? To confuse me, or what?
                If you have discarded the principle of scientificity, then that is your problem, and I should not follow your approach at the first request.
                1. BAI
                  +1
                  4 May 2025 14: 33
                  , a change of theme was put into effect. Now instead of fleets there are already land armies

                  There is no substitution. The Vikings went to the battlefield by sea and fought on land. As a land army.
                  So the actions on land are being discussed.
                  And if we talk about the sea, the Galapagos turtles fell victim to a deliberate hunt by sailors who planned their trips taking into account that they would stock up on "live canned" turtle meat in the Galapagos.
                  1. 0
                    4 May 2025 14: 59
                    Is the theme of "nothing remains after the hunt" over? laughing

                    No, it is precisely a substitution.
                    What are you trying to argue? That a fleet of 100 ships required 630 tons of grain and 135 tons of meat? What are you trying to claim? That a crew of 3000 would live on foraged food?
                    What you have is not history, but fantasy. And, by the way, not only you.
                    1. +2
                      4 May 2025 16: 47
                      There is much evidence that a person needs at least 1 kg of food per day plus drinks, raw water was not drunk at that time. That is, at least 2 kg per person per day. Everything else is easy to calculate.
                      Where is the guarantee that having landed on a foreign shore you will receive bread and shelter? Rather, on the contrary, all the most valuable things will be hidden in the neighboring forests and mountains.
                      So, when going on a hike, as now, you need to count on the worst case scenario. Otherwise, there will be no way to return.
                    2. BAI
                      +1
                      4 May 2025 18: 53
                      You don't have a story, you have a fantasy.

                      I want to say that you cannot clearly express your thoughts. And in some cases you contradict yourself.
                      1. -1
                        4 May 2025 18: 56
                        And I want to tell you that you should sometimes use a dictionary.

                        Do you see a contradiction in the fact that the Vikings, with full supplies on board, captured trophy food? There is no contradiction here. This was done at any convenient opportunity, so that the enemy would not take advantage of it.
                2. +2
                  4 May 2025 17: 17
                  As a person who has taken part in the study of such monuments, I will ask you only two questions: 1. What remains of domestic animals do you propose to find at the sites of the Paleolithic culture of mammoth hunters and related cultures? 2. And what, did the Viking expansion last 10 years, and with regular - due to convenient geographic location with reference to raw materials for making tools and seasonal migrations of prey herds in the cereal steppes - camps in the same places?

                  Stop trying to fit the owl onto the globe, don't be such a sadist.
                  1. -1
                    4 May 2025 17: 23
                    First, read the discussion carefully, and then intervene with objections.
                    1. +1
                      4 May 2025 17: 31
                      I read it very carefully, and write where I think it is necessary, and what I think is necessary. About the intended use of a Jacuzzi toilet - I gave an allegory for a reason, and it is the most restrained of those that came to mind.

                      How are things with you there? Has your Panama hat burst yet from all the stuff you threw in there?
                      1. 0
                        4 May 2025 17: 33
                        Throw in... He-he laughing
                        Yes, you are hysterical about my calculations, to which you can’t counter with anything other than “I think so.”
                        And instead of calmly admitting that the Vikings were a little more organized than was commonly believed, you engage in kindergarten-style bullying and poop-throwing in the sandbox.

                        It's amazing how many people who are adults according to their passports fall into childhood.
    2. 0
      3 May 2025 19: 22
      It is very presumptuous to expect that robbery and hunting will be successful every time for decades.
      1. +1
        4 May 2025 17: 18
        Both the Huns and the Mongols lived like this for centuries, and? It's convenient when China is nearby.
        1. 0
          7 May 2025 00: 26
          First of all, let's not refer to historical phantoms. It's not convenient when China is right next door, but when information about China is made up by Jesuits.

          Secondly, when nomadic robbers invaded foreign territory in reliably documented times, they could live by both robbery and hunting, but only on the condition that the territory was sparsely populated, the invasion was not far away and there were few attackers. Then, indeed, it was possible to go into a wild area, set up camp, hunt, move, hunt again, stumble upon some farm, kill everyone there and eat everything, etc. There is no point, however, in this, such a way of life can only be led by completely miserable marginals who have nowhere to go, or robbers do all this only to keep their pants up until they come across some noticeable jackpot (slaves, a large consignment of cattle or a merchant's wagon train, or whatever interests them).

          The difference is that wandering bandits can, in case of danger, break through in any direction where there are no enemies (local militia, squad) - and Vikings and other pirates cannot, they cannot abandon their ships; wandering bandits can hide in a small forest in the middle of nowhere, and even make a temporary camp there and slowly replenish supplies, making sorties - but sea bandits cannot, for the same reason; vagabonds can, if necessary, split up, hide, and finally eat some of their own horses - and drakkars are inedible. Moreover, in all centuries the main target of land raiders has always been cattle, which, naturally, was not prepared on the spot, but simply driven to the native steppe and which, if necessary, can also be eaten. And did the Vikings also hunt sheep? )))) Did they mistakenly take Christian shepherds and lambs for literal shepherds? ))

          But even taking into account the above, it is better to plan a reasonably organized land raid based on the fact that you have at least a food emergency reserve for the return journey - this means that if you are a nomad, and not just a runaway peasant, then you will still be engaged in the procurement of provisions in the process of your usual cattle-breeding activities, and maybe even not alone, but count on the help of your entire clan-tribe, and drag along at least minimal supplies, especially since there should still be more horses in your detachment than riders. Otherwise, it is better not to even count on deep operations, limiting yourself to raids on border villages - but then there are no analogies with the Vikings. And for there to be an analogy (with border raids), the Vikings would have to live right in the sea, fish there, eat, reproduce, and drink sea water (heh-heh), i.e. the situation is obviously fantasy.
  9. +1
    3 May 2025 16: 28
    Shpakovsky seemed to have answered questions regarding supplies in his articles. The latter included correspondence with the Swedish museum
    1. -1
      4 May 2025 16: 41
      Quote: Sergey Tkach
      Shpakovsky seemed to have answered in his articles

      This is not an authority at all
  10. 0
    3 May 2025 19: 22
    In general, it is surprising - all the people focused on the thesis about the absence of fish remains (indeed, a weak point), completely ignoring the reasoning that most types of fish are not suitable for long-term storage in the realities of those years. It would seem that if you present a recipe for inexpensive salting of inexpensive fish - and the matter is in the bag, but the people, as usual, are looking for counterarguments under the lamppost, where it is lighter.
    1. Fat
      +4
      3 May 2025 19: 40
      Publications about what the Vikings ate during their unprecedented wanderings have been coming one after another for about a month. The second to last one was literally yesterday. It seems like we've already talked about everything... And your remark about the one-sidedness of the posts is only under this article.
      It seems that you don't shy away from easy paths either... smile
      1. 0
        3 May 2025 19: 45
        I wrote specifically about the comments on this article.
        1. Fat
          +2
          3 May 2025 19: 47
          That's what I thought... Don't be offended.
          With respect.
    2. +3
      4 May 2025 17: 22
      This is such an insignificant point in this heresy... There, smoked fish is stored for 3-5 days.
      The author even confuses hot and cold smoking, but in those technologies, cold smoking was in use, in special sheds, and they smoked fish there for several days per batch.
      As for how long dried fish, jerky, or meat dried to the state of chips can be stored - the dates are also far-fetched. To listen to him, they landed on the shore, plundered the village, killed all the cattle, and ate all the carcasses on the spot, and finished them off over the next few days. It doesn't last longer than a few days.
      1. 0
        6 May 2025 23: 54
        To think that the Vikings landed unnoticed each time, immediately found a populous but completely unprotected village nearby (whose inhabitants were hearing about the Vikings and the danger of an attack from the sea for the first time), found provisions there for the whole gang and slowly prepared them for several days according to all the rules - is much more absurd.

        Although, in a small raid, of course, this is quite feasible. But in a small raid, when 20 people rob one fishing farm, they, heh-heh, really will eat all the carcasses on the spot.
      2. 0
        7 May 2025 00: 29
        By the way, fantasy with missing logistics and large armed units, allegedly constantly feeding at the expense of the local population - a sure sign of falsification of history. In the case of the Vikings, the Mongols, and Napoleon.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. +3
    3 May 2025 19: 41
    For example, you have been asserting some theory all your life, have written many publications, defended your dissertation... And then it turns out that this theory is worthless, since it is based on false premises. The collapse of your entire scientific life.
    This opinion is constantly encountered among amateurs. On the contrary, in such a case there is an opportunity to develop a topic on an interesting and familiar subject. And so - I researched everything, described it, closed the topic, and then what to do? Go to the students, raise a new topic from scratch?
    Take physicists, for example. In the 60s, new, beautiful theories were created one after another. Which were thrown into the trash, because a month later, particles were discovered that were not predicted by these theories. Everyone is happy, everyone is busy. But now it’s a different story! They developed the Standard Model, which gives the highest possible agreement with experiment! They even found the Higgs boson, which was considered just a mathematical artifact. And what next? It’s not clear where to “dig”. No, it’s clear that we need to “dig”: there are still many unsolved problems (gravity, the bastard, doesn’t want to be quantized in a good way, 95% of the mass-energy in the universe is who knows what, etc.), but the experiment no longer tells us where to. There are many theoretical ideas, but this is not it. Moreover, to experimentally test these ideas using conventional methods, we would need an accelerator the size of either our galaxy or the visible universe (different ideas give different sizes). So physicists are looking for a mistake somewhere.
  13. +2
    3 May 2025 19: 54
    The overwhelming majority of the bones belonged to pigs, cattle, sheep and goats. The researchers identified 70,8 thousand bones, but found only five wild deer bones. 


    Allow me to add my two cents about the possible supply of game? Yes, there should be many animal bones in the territories of ancient settlements. But are these the bones of those who were eaten by the inhabitants of these very settlements? Isn't that so? And the bones of cattle taken as food for the voyage will definitely not be found in the cultural layer. So the bones of game prepared to supply the squadron are also not available to archaeologists. Because they are on the seabed. I think the point is this: It is better to use domestic cattle to supply the townspeople. It is more convenient and tastier. Now game is exotic, but then (possibly) it was treated as second-rate meat. I will say as a hunter: game is generally inferior in consumer properties to domestic cattle. In general, domestic cattle were eaten every day. And when it was necessary to supply a large squadron, they could well have resorted to hunting on an industrial scale. And since all the carcasses floated away on a campaign, no bones are found in the settlements! But here an objection is possible: there should be discarded bones. Hooves, possibly heads, etc. But if the carcass was obtained in the forest, then it is not advisable to drag it whole! Even now, when there is motor equipment, they try to cut up the carcass and leave the skin, head, hooves and entrails in the forest. And only the meat on the bones is taken. This could have been the case with the Vikings. They organized a Big Hunt for a couple of hundred carcasses, cut them up "on the spot", brought them to the port and loaded them whole onto small ships. So it turned out that there was a supply by industrial procurement, but archaeologists did not find any game bones.
    1. +2
      3 May 2025 20: 20
      Allow me to add my two cents on the possible supply of game?
      And don't be shy, colleague! Everyone here is one of us and any opinion is valuable (until it is refuted by the opinions of other "competition participants"). There's Alexey "Okhotoved" also from your "fighters against wild nature" and Greta Thunberg! laughing good
      1. +1
        3 May 2025 20: 29
        It's better to object on the merits.
    2. +3
      4 May 2025 11: 23
      Ponimatel (Alexander), respected sir, you have made a very correct observation about the Big Hunt. In the spring, after the females have already gone to the mountains, it would be possible to organize a Big Hunt for the male reindeer: the time and place of the animal's transition from winter to summer pastures is approximately known. If an elk is caught in the heat of the moment, then the calf will be taken. But it still takes a week to salt or smoke the meat...
      1. Fat
        +4
        4 May 2025 12: 40
        Quote: Tests
        If a moose gets into trouble, then the moose calf will be taken away too.

        Bison bonasus bonasus - the range of the species extended from the Pyrenees to England, southern Scandinavia and Western Siberia. Plains (Belovezhskaya) bison... It is quite obvious that hunters also killed these, possibly en masse. Cows and calves lived separately from the bulls in small groups... The last wild bison was shot in 1921 by a forester, namesake of Vyacheslav Olegovich, Kazimir Shpakovsky... Yes
    3. +1
      4 May 2025 16: 30
      Ponimatel (Alexander), respected, I disagree with you: "Even now, when there is motor equipment, they try to cut up the carcass and leave the skin, head, hooves and entrails in the forest. And only the meat on the bones is taken." Different people go after different animals with different goals. The skull of an elk with antlers or the head of a male elk, completely handed over to a good taxidermist, is an ornament for many at home or in a club. The skin of the same elk, yes, is hard to drag, but dressed - not the worst gift. In Soviet times, when hunters and fishermen were given a fishing area in the Arkhangelsk region and they were the real owners of the area, the elk was taken out of the forest entirely: both hooves and intestines with a stomach were used as bait. The plan for marten must be fulfilled, and no one has canceled the fight against wolves.
      1. +2
        4 May 2025 17: 26
        So the skin of the North American bison was initially called "Canadian moose skin". Because they began to encounter them before they reached the Great Plains, and the natives valued them very much, due to the difficulty of obtaining bison with their material.
  14. 0
    4 May 2025 16: 37
    Quote: BAI
    Each Mongol had a war horse and only TWO transport horses - for personal belongings and food.
    2 pack horses - is that enough for a multi-month trek without replenishment?

    Please provide a link to your source.
    1. +3
      4 May 2025 17: 29
      "Anonymous Iskander", I think, if I remember this moment correctly. But, there are only general brushstrokes on the issue. Perhaps Rubruk or Carpini. But in general, the Mongols had such campaigns in terms of logistics - everything was calculated, moving in tribal groups, and not just military tumens, over huge distances - as a skill they had been honing for at that time not even centuries, but one and a half thousand years. Mode laid this system for them, and Qin Shi Huangdi would not build the Great Wall from just anyone.
  15. +1
    4 May 2025 17: 08
    The abstruse, supposedly scientific reasoning of a person who is very far from understanding the topic. The same cries about how the Mongols ate on the campaign. "It couldn't have been like that! What could they have eaten on such a long campaign??? How much baggage would they have to drag along with them so far!?..!!!..! Etc., etc. In the end, the "logical" answer is - it couldn't have been like that. There was no Mongol invasion... So here - so many of these bones there, such bones here. These bones are not there, which means they didn't eat this, didn't fish, didn't hunt. A Viking should eat so much, so much, this and that per day. If less, then he's not a Viking... They dragged everything along with them, and in your country they probably even carried toothpicks in sacks.
    .. Young man! Before talking about something, at least a little get into the skin of the person who lived then.. Can't..? Well then either keep quiet, or at least thoroughly study the way of life and activity. If now we in the SVO can go without food for several days, while conducting active combat missions, then back then this happened and often, despite the fact that people at that time were much more resilient and stronger. And all the food is what was taken as prey. Therefore, stop chatting about what you have no idea
    1. -3
      4 May 2025 17: 27
      Okay, then don't be surprised why your drones are Chinese.
      1. 0
        4 May 2025 17: 54
        Are you the author? Such answers only confirm your limitations. As they say - ONLY SHOW-OFF. The desire to seem smart, producing a set of words and in the end - ZERO. Neither in the article, nor in the answers
      2. 0
        4 May 2025 18: 01
        So if we have Chinese drones, it's only because we don't know how to appreciate your genius..? Bgggggg
        1. 0
          4 May 2025 18: 41
          Yes, that's right.
          Not only mine, but also everyone who applies the scientific method.
          The creation of a miniature remote-controlled drone was stopped by the shout of the Big Boss: "Who needs these toys?!"
          Making miniature cameras: "Who needs that?! You'd be better off making lenses."
          Combat drone with a charge: "What can it do against a tank?! Are you completely crazy to suggest this?!"
          And so on. And so it turned out that when it comes to fighting, the drones are Chinese.

          By rejecting and trampling the scientific method you inevitably turn into a savage.
          1. 0
            4 May 2025 19: 18
            Hee hee hee.. Scientific...? Who, you or what...? I have to disappoint you, your nonsense about fish and other bones, like everything else in this article, has nothing to do with science. You think too highly of yourself, and the same stupid people, thinking that you are some kind of scientist, begin to consider it, science, a profanation. Get busy, and don't get involved in serious matters. Go to the SVO, for example, and finally find out what war is. Otherwise, you'll live without understanding anything in life.
            1. 0
              4 May 2025 20: 12
              It is extremely interesting to observe a person who harms himself without realizing it. laughing
  16. 0
    4 May 2025 22: 00
    Quote: AllBiBek
    Perhaps Rubruk or Carpini.

    They don't say a word about it.
  17. +1
    5 May 2025 04: 36
    Quote: Tests
    Dear Sir, I disagree with you: "Even

    In vain, my dear sir. Of course, they won't leave trophy prey in the forest. But most of the animals they hunt are of normal size and appearance. And there's no point in dragging them out whole. The same goes for bait, that's a special case. And if there's no one to bait in a given area, no wolf, no bear, then no one in their right mind would drag out the intestines. I think the Vikings also had no one to bait at sea, and they weren't into making stuffed animals.
    1. 0
      5 May 2025 12: 47
      Ponimatel (Alexander), thank you for your prompt and detailed response! But you did not specify what region, territory, republic you were describing in your first comment. I always ask my comrades on the site to clearly describe the five-year plan and the place of action in the comments. After all, our country is huge, life today in the tent of a Komi reindeer herder is slightly different from life in a Dagestan aul, supplies in the house of the Central Committee of the CPSU did not have much in common with supplies in the regional center of the Volga region for teachers during the coupon times of Perestroika. I projected hunting onto commercial hunting in my native Arkhangelsk region with the Nenets Autonomous Okrug, where they pulled out guts - a dog or two of their own huskies had to be fed in a hut until March, and today we have snowmobiles or motor dogs pulling everything out of the taiga ... But whether the Vikings hunted bears, wolves, wolverines on bait or not - I don’t know. The Vikings used the skins of these animals.
  18. 0
    5 May 2025 16: 14
    Quote: Tests
    I don't know whether the Vikings hunted bears, wolves, and wolverines using bait.

    Yes, you are right, hunts, like hunters, are different. But it is unlikely that the method of hunting on bait was used to supply the squadron, when it was necessary to quickly get a lot of game. I think that only a drive was used. And at sea there was no one to bait and apparently the discarded "goods" remained in the forest, at the place of the hunt. Perhaps this explains the absence of game bones in the layers on the territory of populated areas.
  19. 0
    5 May 2025 16: 15
    Quote: Tests
    commercial hunting in his native Arkhangelsk region

    You must have good hunting there... I envy you!)