Military Review

The no longer secret Su-35: foreign press about Russian fighter

83
The latest talk about the upcoming purchase by China of Russian Su-35 fighters attract the attention of the whole world. China claims to domination, at least in the region, and new generation fighter "4 ++" can significantly increase its military potential. So far, we are talking only about a few dozen aircraft, but we should not forget the contracts of the past years, when Chinese engineers carefully studied the purchased equipment and made their own on its basis. Thus, the purchased Su-35 may well become a kind of basis for hundreds of new fighters that will not yield to planes of other countries of Southeast Asia.




In connection with such a possible development of events, foreign experts and amateurs aviation show increased interest in the new Russian aircraft. A few days ago, the Defense Industry Daily (DID) wrote about the fighter. The article received the high-profile title Russian SU-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More (“Russian Su-35 Super-Flanker: No More Secret Fighter”). Although the authors of the publication, for obvious reasons, do not have complete information about the Su-35 fighter, it is nevertheless worth familiarizing themselves with their opinions and assessments of prospects.

First of all, DID is reminded of the recent confusion with designations, when the Su-35 index hid two combat vehicles at once, which had significant differences from each other. The first of them was a Su-27 with an updated composition of avionics and other engines, and the second was a deep modernization of the original fighter. In particular, the new machine, sometimes called the Su-37, received the front horizontal tail. However, recently the situation has become clear and under the name Su-35 only one fighter appears. The article mentions another confusion, this time with the manufacturers. It is noted that not all plants and corporations directly related to the construction of new aircraft placed them on the list of products on their official websites.

The current Su-35, which previously had additional letters “BM” in the designation, according to DID employees, is a kind of compromise between the two ideas of equipping the Air Force with a new technique. Su-35 is considered as something between a simple upgrade of serial machines and a new vision of the look of a modern heavy fighter. The result of this approach was the equipping of the H035 “Irbis” onboard radar with a passive phased antenna array, the use of the L175M “Khibiny-M” jamming system and the installation of equipment on the aircraft necessary to create so-called glass cabin. Regarding the design of the aircraft, DID notes the rejection of the use of the front horizontal tail, the new AL-37FU turbojet engines with variable thrust vectoring and substantial modifications of the wing, tail assembly and their mechanization. It is worth noting that the Su-35 fighters use the engines of the AL-41F1 family, and a certain "AL-37FU" may be a simple mistake.



In the context of the new avionics, DID note the specific situation with the radar. Of course, the passive phased-array electrohydraulic driven array is capable of finding and attacking a large number of targets (30 and 8, respectively), but some questions remain. It is noted that the information on the maximum detection range of an air target in 400 kilometers is not accompanied by a corresponding disclaimer regarding the effective dispersion area (EPR) of the object found. Quite rightly, the article notes that finding a small fighter is much more difficult than finding a large passenger plane.

Commenting on the statements of the Sukhoi company about reducing the visibility of the aircraft, the DID staff remind that the Su-27 family of fighters never had a small EPR and therefore one should hardly expect much success in this area from the new Su-35. However, reduced visibility is not excluded, which may be facilitated by the use of special materials and the transfer / removal of protruding parts.

Finally, employees of Defense Industry Daily touched the resource of the new fighters. They do not call the declared figures real or impossible. In their opinion, only time can show whether the creators of the aircraft were right, talking about the glider's resource in the 6000 clock and the engine in the 4000.

An assessment of the prospects for the new Su-35 fighter begins with a small excursion into history. The authors recall that the Su-27 was created as a response to the fourth-generation American fighter F-15, F-16 and F-18, thanks to which the designers from the USSR were able to take into account all the possibilities and prospects of the aircraft of a potential enemy. As a result, the Su-27 turned out so successful that in a few years it became more successful in export terms than the MiG-29, previously offered for sale to third countries.

In just a few years, the Su-27 and its modifications could become the main competitor of American and foreign fighters in the international market. The fighters, created on the basis of Su-27, have won a certain market share and now they can be replaced by new Su-35. They will have to fight for new contracts with American and European fighters of the 4 and 4 + generations. In addition, competition is possible with the Chinese aircraft J-10 and J-11. Among other things, DIDs note that Russia's claims on China over the illegal copying of aircraft (J-11 is a copy of Su-27SK) are fully substantiated.

In general, employees of Defense Industry Daily are not inclined to overestimate the export prospects of Su-35 fighters. First, with all their advantages, these planes are inferior to the Chinese J-11B in one of the main parameters - the price. This may have an impact on the decision of potential buyers. The second reason for which DIDs do not see great prospects, concerns the saturation of the market. A large part of the countries that are potential buyers of new aircraft, has already acquired the required number of machines of older models. Their service life is not over yet, so for some time a number of Eastern European and Asian countries will not buy fighters, including the Su-35.

As a result, a specific situation develops: some states have already bought airplanes and no longer need them, while others have chosen not Russian equipment. The number of remaining countries is small, and the volume of possible contracts will force all aircraft manufacturers to invest a lot of strength and, possibly, money in promoting their products. More or less understandable situation, according to DID, is developing with Indonesia, Vietnam and some other countries of Southeast Asia. They are not inclined to buy American or Chinese military equipment, so Russian planes may prefer. However, now these states are paying under previous contracts. Moreover, their financial capabilities suggest that in the future we should not expect new large orders of new, more expensive aircraft.

The overall "sentence" on the export of the Su-35 fighter, in the opinion of the Defense Industry Daily, is generally positive. However, DID recognize that the new fighter of the Su-27 family will be sold with much greater difficulties than previous versions of the famous aircraft.

Only one comment can be added to the article of Defense Industry Daily. Currently, Su-35 fighters are being built only for the Russian air force (these aircraft have the letter “C” in the title). Before 2015, the Air Force will receive 48 fighter jets. Su-35 deliveries to China are just being discussed. Not so long ago, information appeared about signing a contract, but in the best case, new aircraft for the PLA Air Force will be assembled only in a few years. As for deliveries to third countries, it is too early to talk about them. Naturally, it is too early to assess the prospects for the Su-35 in the international market. However, if we take into account the current situation and possible ways of its development, the forecast of the DID publication looks quite understandable and logical. But still I want Russian aircraft manufacturers to earn not only on large orders for the Air Force of their country, but also on export contracts.


Defense Industry Daily: http://defenseindustrydaily.com/russias-su-35-mystery-fighter-no-more-04969/
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  1. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk April 3 2013 08: 16 New
    45
    Do not sell su-35, s-400 and cupid to China, money is money, and technology will flow away.
    1. Civil
      Civil April 3 2013 08: 30 New
      22
      I don’t understand the meaning of selling su-35 to China ... either greed or one of two
      1. Bronis
        Bronis April 3 2013 11: 53 New
        13
        Quote: Civil
        I don’t understand the meaning of selling su-35 to China ... either greed or one of two

        If 24 pcs. they’ll bet it’s not even greed, but politics. Some kind of exchange. There will be no big gain in the deal. But what’s what
        exchanged - we may not know.
        1. silver_roman
          silver_roman April 3 2013 12: 58 New
          +5
          I took the language straight drinks
          backroom deals are far more important than profits from 24 aircraft. Well, helping out a little less than 2 billion dollars ... of course, not a little, but not so much as to lose much more on competitive equipment built by China itself.
          1. Ilya Kovalenko
            Ilya Kovalenko April 16 2013 00: 42 New
            0
            Not built but copied. However, there is a difference.
        2. opkozak
          opkozak April 3 2013 14: 10 New
          +6
          What do they write

          More than twenty leading Russian defense enterprises take part in the Langkawi international maritime exhibition, LIMA-2013, which opened on March 26 in Malaysia.

          Russia represents a wide range of military equipment, warships and boats, as well as elements of missile defense. This exhibition means a lot to the weapons of Rosoboronexport, Russia's export agency. The country has been a regular participant in this weapon show since 1991, company spokesman Vyacheslav Davidenko told VoR.

          “Russia has played a decisive role in helping LIMA become the largest arms exhibition in the Asia-Pacific region and a platform for military cooperation between countries. This time we offer visitors the opportunity to see our last su-35 multipurpose fighter, Yak-130 jet training aircraft, attack helicopters Mi-28, single-seat attack helicopter Ka-50, and heavy transport helicopter Mi-26. We also have a multimedia pavilion to demonstrate the latest achievements in military shipbuilding in Russia: Cheetah-class frigate, Mirage and Sobol patrol boats. Visitors to the Russian pavilion will also see a new generation of M2M anti-ballistic missile elements and Shell-C1 anti-aircraft missile and anti-aircraft artillery weapon systems. Russia traditionally has strong positions in this niche of the military-industrial complex. "
        3. Jurkovs
          Jurkovs April 3 2013 15: 08 New
          +8
          For many, a week ago information went unnoticed. The Americans were excited that we allocated a lot of money for the reconstruction of the microelectronic industry. Domestic company "IT Platform" is included in the list of prohibited and we have compromised the production of supercomputers. Let me remind you that supercomputers are manufactured by the USA, Japan, Russia, Germany and China, but only the first three countries can design from !!!! China creates what he himself does not understand, but he can order equipment for this production.
        4. patsantre
          patsantre April 3 2013 15: 20 New
          +1
          Or maybe they just live today. Now cut the dough to saw, well, to fulfill part of the promises, and after us (when China begins to produce serious aircraft) at least a flood.
      2. Grishka100watt
        Grishka100watt April 3 2013 13: 00 New
        +2
        Maybe this is a political decision. If China can build a fleet of modern combat vehicles, this will significantly complicate the lives of Americans.
        1. Beck
          Beck April 3 2013 13: 07 New
          +5
          Quote: Grishka100watt
          Maybe this is a political decision. If China can build a fleet of modern combat vehicles, this will significantly complicate the lives of Americans.


          Grisha, excuse me, of course, but you don’t pull at 100 watts. The United States, of course, this will complicate life, but so will Eurases. It’s like to club a neighbor with a club. Of course, he can drive a distant neighbor with her, but with time he can also sway at you. And if there is no club, then there will be nothing to swing.
          1. Grishka100watt
            Grishka100watt April 3 2013 16: 23 New
            +3
            Now we are potential allies with China. China does not need America. If you do not help him now, then in the near future we will be left alone!

            Then - yes, it will be necessary to have parity with China, but this is already 30–40 years after we will not allow America to unleash a large-scale war by joint efforts, and thereby we will take to the background in world geopolitics.
            1. sergius60
              sergius60 April 6 2013 01: 41 New
              0
              That's it!!!
        2. ultra
          ultra April 3 2013 15: 10 New
          +6
          Quote: Grishka100watt
          If China can build a fleet of modern combat vehicles, this will significantly complicate the lives of Americans.
          We look at the map and conclude to whom it can complicate life! hi
          1. Grishka100watt
            Grishka100watt April 3 2013 16: 29 New
            +2
            Yes, look at the map, ai ???
            What's next??

            A modern fleet is not a screw fighter, they are very quickly transferred to the required distances hi

            Now and in the near future, China cannot fight with us! It's just stupid !!! They will bring down themselves and us! And America will recover again in our bones !!!
            1. sergius60
              sergius60 April 6 2013 01: 52 New
              0
              In confirmation of your thoughts. Last year’s CCP congress decided that who "drives the wedge into Sino-Russian friendship," of course, I don’t remember verbatim, is appointed as the enemy. And what is it in communist China to “ignore” the decisions of the party congress ... fool Somehow we went through ourselves, deviations from the course, back and forth, but what the hell. Before that, by the way, they did without emphasis. Well, if the congress decided ... For ten years, all the political leaders will be on the ball, driving into the spinal cord the decisions of the "historical congress of the CPSU, ugh, CCP." good
        3. sasha127
          sasha127 April 5 2013 18: 39 New
          +1
          China is already making life difficult for Americans. But America overseas and we are near.
        4. sergius60
          sergius60 April 6 2013 01: 39 New
          +1
          That's right. Many of us are ready to get into a fight ourselves. Of course, very noble. But they completely forget that the great NUCLEAR power is somewhat limited in "maneuverability". An elephant in a china shop is somehow not very ... But the main thing! You need to master the art of solving problems with ALIEN HANDS! hi
      3. Sleptsoff
        Sleptsoff April 3 2013 16: 37 New
        +6
        Or soon a war in which we will fight on the same side with China and the sale of these fighters simply transfer new technology to an ally.
      4. Yankuz
        Yankuz April 3 2013 19: 53 New
        0
        Politics, sir, dear!
      5. lazy
        lazy April 6 2013 18: 11 New
        0
        either the t-50 really showed breakthrough characteristics and decided to merge outdated technologies in the meanwhile as opposed to the usa, but still the deal is doubtful
    2. Russian
      Russian April 3 2013 08: 31 New
      +5
      That's for sure! And it will be some kind of J-12 later, and they will also write that our planes are losing a lot in price! Although still an important factor, this quality, how do these Js have with it?
      1. Alexander
        Alexander April 3 2013 09: 59 New
        0
        As far as I know information about the sale of the Su-35, first appeared in Chinese The media, and they always love to invent and exaggerate everything. As for the Chinese fighters, they have very poor survivability.
        1. Bronis
          Bronis April 3 2013 11: 54 New
          +3
          Well, they’ve already "bought" Tu-22M. But there was no smoke without fire. And negotiations were underway. We will soon find out if you really concluded. But more concerned about their own Air Force.
        2. sergius60
          sergius60 April 6 2013 01: 59 New
          0
          That's it. Appearance can be mastered. And tehnolog and and? Many of the lucky owners of the 40th Moskvich will be warmed up by the awareness that they were motivated by the seamless Volkswagen. And I just say right away - without a mat! hi
    3. vadimus
      vadimus April 3 2013 10: 29 New
      +3
      If you sell the slingshot to your neighbors, you should have a crossbow in stock!
    4. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg April 3 2013 10: 50 New
      +5
      And where does the technology? Technologies are specific manufacturing processes and equipment. With technology, you can only copy the design while it is necessary to restore the entire technological chain through it. In practice, this is close to the development of new technologies, but does not give a clue about the engineering ideas that are embedded in the aircraft. Thus, you can stick as many copies as you like, but this will not increase your mind. The Chinese have long copied all of our process chains. Until now, they are not able to do something new on this basis, only copies of our ideas. So - let them copy. By the time they figure out what we’ll have done, we’ll already have a completely different technique.
      1. Vovka levka
        Vovka levka April 3 2013 14: 19 New
        -1
        A technical school has been preparing for years. But giving them a textbook is not reasonable. Of course, you can tear out separate sheets from the textbook. But part can be recreated, but what doesn’t work is easy to steal. Do you think they have no intelligence?
      2. sergius60
        sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 08 New
        0
        T-50 is really on the way. It’s even a sin not to cut down the “babos” from a 30-year-old airplane, well-worn by modernization, but still the design of “yesterday”. A historical example. Between Messers 109 modifications from B to K, the distance is huge. But the creation of the "262nd" ended them as a VIEW!
    5. Jurkovs
      Jurkovs April 3 2013 15: 03 New
      +3
      The reason for the existence of the economy is to sell competitive products, to create better and more competitive products with the money raised. To sell it again and so on in a closed cycle, otherwise stagnation and lag.
      1. sergius60
        sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 13 New
        0
        Yes, yes and a thousand times yes! When discussing articles on similar topics, I constantly "hysteria and piss boiling water" in a natural way, proving that this is the NEED to do so. The road will be overpowered by a walker. Movement is life. Etc... hi
    6. Yuriy3005
      Yuriy3005 April 3 2013 15: 52 New
      0
      Regarding the Amur, the LTP will be finalized and brought up for Chinese money, so it is beneficial to both countries, but Triumph cannot be sold under any circumstances! At least in the next 15-20 years, just the S-500 will arrive, you can start selling.
      And with the dryers, hmm .... Yes, it’s not enough 24 aircraft, although they wrote that during the visit of their head they signed an agreement not to copy to us, but something that is not really believed in the honesty of our narrow-eyed “friends”
    7. Reasonable, 2,3
      Reasonable, 2,3 April 4 2013 06: 29 New
      +1
      I wrote that Malaysia will choose the "SU-35" - do not bend !. This is export. Finally, strategically, advertising began to be done. 3 years plowed over her, Guys, I managed. Good luck to us Comrades.
  2. Phantom Revolution
    Phantom Revolution April 3 2013 08: 25 New
    0
    Even if China was sold, the main thing is that it would be distracted by Japan and the United States, otherwise it would be a serious fight now because of a couple of pieces of land.
    1. Perch_xnumx
      Perch_xnumx April 3 2013 08: 49 New
      +1
      Even if China was sold, the main thing is that it would be distracted by Japan and the United States, otherwise it would be a serious fight now because of a couple of pieces of land.
      If you hide your head in the sand, the problem of the lion from behind will not go away from this. (c) ostrich
      Interestingly, our commanders-in-chief have a clear plan in case of a sudden attack by China, or if they run around with round balls. No wonder China rushed to build bunkers and bomb shelters.
      1. Phantom Revolution
        Phantom Revolution April 3 2013 09: 01 New
        +1
        I will say this, it’s better at the moment, China will be a partner and will cover and delay the United States and Japan, than we would be enemies now and China and the United States would conduct their affairs.
        And about the sudden attack, there is but since the days of the USSR, when quite good groups were stationed in the Far East.
        PS When an acquaintance served 2011 for a year in Khabarovsk, he worked there in the archive, and so there is a document in which if China attacks, then it is necessary to evacuate the secret object in the mountain and liquidate it, well, and retreat.
        1. Beck
          Beck April 3 2013 12: 06 New
          0
          Spoke earlier. I will say it again.

          China has been creeping into all holes for 30 years, since the 1980s, begging for access to modern military technology. The West definitely imposed VETO on the supply of modern weapons to China. Even two years ago, when Europe was in crisis, China volunteered to pay off all its debts in exchange for lifting the embargo on modern weapons in China. It was hard for Europe, but it didn’t even think at least in some way to meet Chinese wishes.

          In 10-15 years, China may well become the first economy in the world. Hence the first state and with its Asian ambitions. And the emphasis of world politics will automatically shift. The first in the economy will be the potential first enemy. Like the USA now. But with amers, Europe can be negotiated. The period of history after the Second World War showed this. How this will be possible with dictatorial, communist China is unknown. It is alarmingly unknown, since traditionally in its history China has been pushing to put forward strict demands and wishes on the verge of execution.

          And the Kremlin, if only a momentary benefit. Get the profit, part of which the bureaucrats will cut. They laid the foundation for China to build an aircraft carrier fleet. Let Ukraine sell the Varyag, but Moscow could block this deal. They set up production in China of third-generation combat aircraft, by selling limited quantities of Su-27 and MiG-29. Now sell the Su-35. This is for the Chinese to study and master the production of 4+ and 5th generation fighters. And having understood the principles of operation of avionics, they also mastered combat instrumentation.

          China is the future economic, and hence the military rival of the EurAsEC, moreover, on the borders. And inadequate, who can’t see beyond their own nose, all amners shout. Yes, they have little leverage. And there is China - not to equip China with military technology and modern technology. That the Kremlin lacks the armed potential of the USA and Europe, that the third is missing?
          1. Grishka100watt
            Grishka100watt April 3 2013 13: 03 New
            +5
            But with amers, Europe can be negotiated. The period of history after the Second World War showed


            You are joking?
            1. Beck
              Beck April 3 2013 13: 16 New
              -1
              Quote: Grishka100watt
              You are joking?


              All the time agreed. Before the use of military force between the USSR and the West did not reach. These are the Berlin crises of 1953 and 1961. This is the 1956 Hungarian crisis. This is the Caribbean crisis of 1962. This is the crisis in the Middle East in 1967. This is the Czechoslovak crisis of 1968. This is the Afghan crisis.

              In all these crises, they were on the verge of war, but AGREED.

              And it is not known how we will agree in the future with China if Russia wants to restore its Vietnamese base in Kamrani. Or China will remember its historical maps. Or will crush Korea for itself. Or it will expand into Central Asia. This will be a big question in 10-15 years.
              1. Grishka100watt
                Grishka100watt April 3 2013 16: 06 New
                +7
                agreed, having a military parity. Berlin and Czechoslovak rebellions were being prepared by the West; this is no secret to anyone. Our troops in
                Gorbachev surrendered to Afghanistan (which the West was preparing). So with whom and what can we negotiate ????

                They did not agree with Hussein. I wonder why?

                China is much closer to us, in fact. I repeat: in deed, China has always been closer to us!

                And all these provocations in the media about China are only part of the propaganda, that's all.
                1. Grishka100watt
                  Grishka100watt April 3 2013 16: 16 New
                  -1
                  I think in this regard, the sale of these machines is just not
                  momentary gain
                  and foreign policy planning for the next 10-30 years.
                2. lazy
                  lazy April 6 2013 18: 15 New
                  0
                  I regularly visit Vladik after the summit’s construction projects; I don’t see any threats on the streets of China, most likely the Central Asian
              2. Cynic
                Cynic April 3 2013 17: 48 New
                0
                Quote: Beck
                but AGREED

                The only where exactly the Caribbean crisis agreed, like all the other provoked by a wise, far-sighted Western policy.
                The rest is the internal problems of the countries of the socialist community.
                And it’s a pity, according to analysts, as early as ten years, the cards would have been canceled.
            2. sergius60
              sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 19 New
              0
              Dear, look at his flag and calm down. The man made a CHOICE.
          2. Cynic
            Cynic April 3 2013 17: 41 New
            +1
            Quote: Beck
            But with amers, Europe can be negotiated. The period of history after the Second World War showed this.

            Examples please.
            Only about the START treaties is not necessary!
            smile
            1. Beck
              Beck April 3 2013 21: 48 New
              -2
              Quote: Cynic
              Examples please. Only about the START treaties is not necessary!


              Well, I wrote about crises at the top. In 1961, in Berlin, on the dividing line, our T-55s and American M-60s stood in front of each other. They could have fired at each other, but they agreed at the top and didn’t get to the war. Made concessions to each other. And in the Czechoslovak events of NATO, troops led to increased combat readiness. But again we agreed. And another thing that we cannot know.
              1. Cynic
                Cynic April 4 2013 17: 42 New
                0
                Quote: Beck
                Made concessions to each other. And in the Czechoslovak events of NATO, troops led to increased combat readiness

                Do you yourself believe in what you wrote?
                By the way, if I'm not mistaken, then the famous 2 week and became popular after the Czechoslovak events.
                Moreover, not only the Soviet troops took part in these very events.
                wink
                1. Beck
                  Beck April 4 2013 20: 28 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Cynic
                  Do you yourself believe in what you wrote? By the way, if I’m not mistaken, then the famous 2 weeks became popular after the Czechoslovak events. Moreover, not only the Soviet troops took part in these very events.


                  I invented all the dates myself? Scroll through the story. And that the tanks in Berlin faced each other in 1961, there are documentary shootings both from the side of the Amers and from our side. If you want to find it.

                  Correctly, armies of five countries of the Warsaw Pact members entered Czechoslovakia. And agreed on the level of NATO and the Warsaw Pact.
                  1. Cynic
                    Cynic April 4 2013 20: 49 New
                    0
                    Quote: Beck
                    I invented all the dates myself? Scroll through the story.

                    Yes, I remember it as well, somehow, which in Czechoslovakia and the participants in those events told.
                    This is the first.
                    Secondly, where on my part are the denials of these events?
                    Denial of agreements (except for the Caribbean) yes! CCCP in those days, and in fact never, was white and fluffy.
                    Do not confuse times, the 50s and 60s are not the end of the 80s, especially not the 90s.
              2. sergius60
                sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 42 New
                +1
                One little detail. In addition to the T-55, there were mainly T-10s there. And that is the difference. But the whole “tsimus” is that the M-60 was completed by development in 1959, in production since July 1959, and was put into service in 1960. And how many of them were there in 1961? They warmed just the M-48, but they HAD NO adequate armor-piercing shells against the T-10. I myself read the memoirs of YOUR Amer general who was crucified about the real peacefulness of the staff. Like how can we be blamed for provoking the Berlin crisis, if we didn’t have any sensible armor-piercing shells, they themselves scared me terribly. Conclusion. If Russia has a successor to the T-10, then yes, the mattresses are very, very peace-loving guys. In general, the boys hurt themselves. But if not - Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya ... Nothing personal, just business. So do YOU ​​say? hi
                1. Beck
                  Beck April 6 2013 11: 10 New
                  0
                  Quote: sergius60
                  One little detail. TO


                  Quite, quite as you say. I only saw a piece of 10 seconds. Our tanks are there, it seems 55, and the Amerovskiy famously drives up to the white line and brakes sharply in front of the line. And the M48 and M60 are similar, if you look briefly, because the M-60 was made with the M-48.
            2. papik09
              papik09 April 4 2013 07: 30 New
              +1
              You hear, "contractor", I will answer you with a saying: "Whose cow would mumble, and yours would be SILENT!". Because you provoke all crises, and then "negotiate". am
          3. Swag
            Swag April 4 2013 05: 46 New
            +3
            All that you know, all that you understand, and we are sitting here and we are gaining momentary benefits ... China has Japan on its side, Vietnam, India and Amers on the other, and you tell us about the rival of the Eurases.
            1. Beck
              Beck April 4 2013 10: 19 New
              -1
              Quote: papik09
              You hear, "contractor", I will answer you with a saying: "Whose cow would mumble, and yours would be SILENT!". Because you provoke all crises, and then "negotiate"


              Quote: Swag
              All that you know, all that you understand, and we are sitting here and we are gaining momentary benefits ... China has Japan on its side, Vietnam, India and Amers on the other, and you tell us about the rival of the Eurases.


              You can get into a conversation, it’s even useful, but first you need to figure out how the site works. Because once you’ve figured it out, you won’t give out the mistakes that you gave out.

              Papik saw the Amerov flag and thinks that I am writing comments from America. No, to figure it out first. It’s after all on the site and further some kind of malfunctions go on and sometimes the wrong flags are posted. But Papik is no big deal, confused me alone with the State Department.

              Swag. The fact that I know everything, I didn’t say that you gave out, and that you don’t understand anything, you said about yourself, I didn’t say that. The fact that China has sideways and Japan and India is what the Eurasian should use in diplomacy against China. If we do not use China against us it will use.

              And who are we? This is the EurAsEC. This is a union, so far, of the three states of Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus. And if we are united in customs, integrate into the economy, then our political interests will be common. And China in ten years will be the main economic rival and political opponent of the Eurases.

              And the last one. Papik and Khabar, people go to the site to exchange opinions, to speak out, but here it is, one of the needs of the essence of man. And you, judging by your tone, went to swear. Who needs this? Do not want, do not read, do not agree, bring your counterarguments, do not like, pass by. And you are on the verge of swearing. So, to quarrel for this there is a bazaar, go there and go, there it’s in the order of things.
              1. sergius60
                sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 47 New
                +1
                Beck, I don’t care. Why did you first have the mattress flags, and then abruptly changed to Kazakhstan? Are you "hypersonic" back and forth?
                1. Beck
                  Beck April 6 2013 10: 59 New
                  -1
                  Quote: sergius60
                  Beck, I don’t care. Why did you first have the mattress flags, and then abruptly changed to Kazakhstan? Are you "hypersonic" back and forth?


                  I’m goofing myself. Dangle here at the speed of light. Tired, unbearable. But such a share I have staggering back and forth.
      2. Svarog
        Svarog April 3 2013 09: 06 New
        +7
        Do you really think that we do not have 10 war plans for each of our "ally"?
        1. Phantom Revolution
          Phantom Revolution April 3 2013 10: 16 New
          +1
          I can’t know all the plans, I’m only talking about a separate unit in Khabarovsk.
          But if, before giving away, China was building up the ground grouping, now they are reducing it and are building up the sea. A fragile world is better than a good quarrel, in which we are clearly not favorites.
        2. Evrepid
          Evrepid April 3 2013 13: 52 New
          0
          As reality / history of the 2-world war shows, it’s not so much so and not so good.

          In general, this time you will not have to retreat.
          1. Phantom Revolution
            Phantom Revolution April 3 2013 14: 13 New
            0
            Are we going to water the battlefields with our soldiers again? During the Second World War, there was no nuclear weapons, so 3 could not be won by anyone, alas.
            1. Cynic
              Cynic April 3 2013 17: 50 New
              0
              Quote: Phantom Revolution
              so there’s no way to win the 3rd world, alas.

              Alas, you can!
              But this is not the United States and essno NATO. Therefore, it has not yet blazed.
              bully
        3. vitya29111973
          vitya29111973 April 3 2013 15: 46 New
          0
          There are plans, execution will be difficult !!!!!
      3. Swag
        Swag April 4 2013 05: 40 New
        +1
        You kind of have captain epaulettes, and questions of an ordinary recruit. Here Hitler would also have to slap Britain first, and he climbed Russia, leaving behind strong enemies behind him. He overestimated himself and underestimated us ... And yet, the Chinese are not warriors, they are - merchants, as an example, the "flood" Arabs have the latest weapons, but which of them are camel shepherd warriors ... You need to believe in your country.
    2. sergius60
      sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 16 New
      0
      Just "divide" the guys on the island. It is NECESSARY to help the process!
  3. Alexander-Tomsk
    Alexander-Tomsk April 3 2013 08: 55 New
    +2
    As for the sale, everything is clear, not an inch to the 35 Chinese! At least until 2020.
    By the way, the article draws a paradoxical contradictory conclusion. On the one hand, experts say that the sale of such aircraft to China could trigger a new arms race in the Asia-Pacific region, on the other hand, that Russia’s customers are ending. That's the point, you can sell after 2020. China, the rest will also want to increase-upgrade their fleet, and then the export version of the t-50 being developed with India will arrive in time.
  4. Romn
    Romn April 3 2013 09: 07 New
    0
    I think people who decided to sell these planes are not stupid and thought about it. But it’s too early to sell the truth in the mine ...
    1. MilaPhone
      MilaPhone April 3 2013 09: 43 New
      +2
      It is noteworthy that in 2008 Russia and China entered into a framework agreement on the protection of intellectual property in the field of military-technical cooperation. Nevertheless, Russia insists on concluding a separate agreement - for additional guarantees. China has not yet given a positive answer. However, even if the Chinese agree to legally enforce intellectual property rights on the Su-35, it will be practically impossible to track compliance with the agreement. And hardly anyone will sue.
      1. Evrepid
        Evrepid April 3 2013 13: 53 New
        +1
        yeah ... Wolf promised not to climb into the shepherd! :)
  5. Kolya
    Kolya April 3 2013 09: 07 New
    +4
    Deliveries of the Su-35 to China should be kindly discussed with China for 20 years and no less, and then you can sell it. You need to be friends with China! wink
  6. erased
    erased April 3 2013 09: 17 New
    0
    Export opportunities are good. But the main thing is to saturate your army with new equipment. Although, of course, the T-50 is needed than the Su-35. But he is not ready yet.
  7. Per se.
    Per se. April 3 2013 09: 27 New
    +3
    "Until 2015, the Air Force will receive 48 of these fighters. Su-35 shipments to China are just being discussed. Not so long ago there was information about the signing of the contract, but in the best case, new PLA aircraft will be assembled only in a few years." So our Air Force will receive the aircraft only in a few years, and it may very well be that some of these 48 pieces will go to the Chinese. When traders rule, national interests are the fifth, it’s obvious that China has accumulated little technology from us. China is not India, a "friend" is very slippery and dangerous, which does not hide its desire for leadership, world hegemony, does not hesitate to draw geographical maps with the designation of its territories to the Urals. And, in any case, first its own army, its primary armament with modern technology, and then all the others who want to buy something.
  8. Dwarfik
    Dwarfik April 3 2013 09: 44 New
    +1
    Good I think if the delivery contract was actually signed, then it is not so simple! Firstly, for its Air Force, the MO ordered 48 aircraft - you will agree that there are not many for vehicles of this class !!! and the bias will be such that until our contract is completed and deliveries to China begin, the T-50 will do! The main emphasis will be placed on this aircraft under the contracts of the Russian Air Force, and, mind you, the contract with China has already been signed and must be completed and of course they will want the T-50 annette - pay for the Su-35!
  9. Indigo
    Indigo April 3 2013 09: 51 New
    +1
    To sell - not to sell ... That is the question! But I’m interested in what air waffle the SU-35 is currently a competitor in terms of performance. It turned out the gap between 4 ++ with the 5th generation (which is not only "raw" but also sick at a price apiece) and the situation in the world smells of gunpowder. I don’t think that if they sell to China, the most “stuffed” to the eyeballs, we’ll have friends and friends close by .. (at least for a while) ...
    1. ansons
      ansons April 3 2013 15: 54 New
      +2
      Well, the competitor is apparently F-22, although you only have to think about superior stealth, there’s a big question on radar, but on the maneuverability and arming the SU-35 in front (for the F-22, no long-range missiles have been made before), but no more aircraft with similar characteristics. As the pilots say, export versions of equipment always differ for the worse, from what is done for themselves. I hope this is true, but not at all fools ...
  10. slavik_gross
    slavik_gross April 3 2013 09: 57 New
    0
    And yet, he is one of the best aircraft in the world today !!! And it is up to our state to decide whether or not to sell it.
  11. Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 3 2013 10: 32 New
    0
    The article is about nothing. On the one hand, "we cannot judge what we cannot verify," and on the other, there are equally obvious things that China and India have collected planes and will not buy more until now, and Chinese scrap metal is cheap.
  12. zao74
    zao74 April 3 2013 10: 56 New
    0
    What could be the sale if such aircraft themselves are not enough.
  13. NAPOLEON
    NAPOLEON April 3 2013 12: 49 New
    0
    If you sell China, then the batch of aircraft should be large more than 150 so that it would be unprofitable for China to copy. Russia must accept the fact that China will overtake us technologically. It is a matter of sleep time, or without our help. we will not be able to compete take off this is obviously the only chance is cooperation let's say with India. I heard somewhere that the indie is the first in training engineers.
    1. Grishka100watt
      Grishka100watt April 3 2013 13: 06 New
      +2
      I think that in Russia and China, the future will go parallel in foot-or-foot, or it (the future) will not exist at all.
      1. NAPOLEON
        NAPOLEON April 3 2013 22: 14 New
        -3
        China does not need allies, it is self-sufficient.
        1. sergius60
          sergius60 April 6 2013 03: 09 New
          0
          Allies are ALWAYS needed. It seems that the mattress and geyropu ALREADY multiplied by zero. Gee-gee ... And the Brazilian economy, by the way, is in the top ten. So before world domination, even plow like Papa Carlo.
  14. trenkkvaz
    trenkkvaz April 3 2013 13: 44 New
    +2
    Quote: Beck

    Grisha, excuse me, of course, but you don’t pull at 100 watts. The United States, of course, this will complicate life, but so will Eurases. It’s like to club a neighbor with a club. Of course, he can drive a distant neighbor with her, but with time he can also sway at you. And if there is no club, then there will be nothing to swing.


    If a neighbor ever thinks of waving at us, he will in any case find a club.
    It is foolish to assume that if we do not sell fighters to China, it will be left without fighters.
    This is some kind of naive and childish opinion that we are selling weapons to our possible opponents in the distant future. Therefore, they say there is no need to sell.
    1. Beck
      Beck April 3 2013 14: 34 New
      0
      Quote: trenkkvaz
      If a neighbor ever thinks of waving at us, he will in any case find a club.


      I will not repeat myself. Before Grishin’s post, my big post is going there. There you will find my answer to this question of yours.
  15. Odysseus
    Odysseus April 3 2013 14: 16 New
    +2
    The main trouble is that our own Air Force is 20 years old without updating.
    First you need to get enough own air force, and then you can already trade.
    But our "business lords" do not care about the interests of the motherland.
  16. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs April 3 2013 15: 00 New
    +1
    The following consideration is not taken into account in the article. The countries of Southeast Asia bought our aircraft for fear of China's growing ambitions. The appearance in China of two dozen more advanced machines will not strain them. But the start of production of a copy of the Su-35 in China will push these countries to purchase the original, since the copy is always worse and parity will be restored.
    1. Odysseus
      Odysseus April 3 2013 15: 17 New
      +3
      Quote: Jurkovs
      The following consideration is not taken into account in the article. The countries of Southeast Asia bought our aircraft for fear of China's growing ambitions. The appearance in China of two dozen more advanced machines will not strain them. But the start of production of a Su-35 copy in China will push these countries to purchase the original, since the copy is always worse and parity will be restored

      Wrong consideration.
      1) There is no parity between the countries of Southeast Asia and China. China militarily dominates.
      2) Southeast Asian countries buy our airplanes because they are good in terms of price / quality. Nobody except us has normal airplanes at such a low price, and even will not deliver on credit
      3) China is not going to make a copy of the Su-35. It is unnecessary to them. They will copy the engine.
    2. sergius60
      sergius60 April 6 2013 02: 58 New
      +1
      Well done! Look at the root. Here is an example. Ukraine sold three hundred tanks to Pakistan. Hindus tensed. And they bought tens of thousands of ATGMs. Who? Of course, in Russia. We are ready to provide everyone, you tfu - sell "cure" for nerve tics.
  17. Takashi
    Takashi April 3 2013 15: 02 New
    +1
    I have another question: if we sell, after what period of time can the Chinese create their clone? how much time will they need?
  18. Letnab
    Letnab April 3 2013 15: 03 New
    +1
    we provide technology to China, and then later there will be an arms race between Russia and China ... even if the US suddenly disappears .. we create a headache for ourselves
  19. Argon
    Argon April 3 2013 16: 06 New
    +7
    Dear commentators, is it not safe to drink Borzh when the kidneys have fallen off. China has two fifth-generation machines of different classes in development. And the only thing inferior to us, in metallurgy, is the backlog of engines. Let's take a sober look at what the Su-5 is in the final , a pre-production single-unit Su35UB with a wing from the Su-27KUB and engines with UVT. There is a new avionics and materiel for EDSU. If they don’t sell the litsuhu when they solve it, we’re on par with radars, even before we came to open architecture . But the main stage of stupid copying they went through and are in the stage when it is not enough to have a sample produced by yourself, you need it to have the best characteristics than a prototype. And here the path of trial and error is extremely rational, you need to improve the technology and not the product. Another thing that China never disdained all forms of espionage, the fruit of which was J-33, Well, here we ourselves were to blame for not wanting to pay salaries to people in the 11s who could sell it. Another thing is that Su -90 like fish, perishable goods, five are on the way, The Chinese want to take them, let them take them all the more since the cost of production decreases with each board sold abroad, which means that our air force is cheaper, the purchase volume is increasing. And as for the attack, it won’t attack alignment as with amers -Soviet missiles in the world will erase dust-
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 April 6 2013 03: 02 New
      0
      Thank God, I waited for an adequate comment. soldier
  20. Odysseus
    Odysseus April 3 2013 16: 35 New
    +2
    Quote: Argon
    Dear commentators, is it not safe to drink Borzh when the kidneys have fallen off. China has two fifth-generation machines of different classes in development. And the only thing inferior to us, in metallurgy, is the backlog of engines. Let's take a sober look at what the Su-5 is in the final , a pre-production single-unit Su35UB with a wing from the Su-27KUB and engines with UVT. There is a new avionics and materiel for EDSU. If they don’t sell the litsuhu when they solve it, we’re on par with radars, even before we came to open architecture .

    Everything is clear and correct. But after all, our own Air Force with a bare ass ... zey. What kind of export deliveries can we talk about when the pilots will soon have nothing to fly on?
    Quote: Argon
    The Chinese want to take it, let them take it all the more so that with each board sold abroad, the cost of production decreases, which means that our air force is cheaper, the purchase volume is increasing

    Well, they only managed to push them by dumping))
    And about the fact that our Air Force will be cheaper ... Theoretically, yes. But in practice, given our businessmen in power, this is not a fact.
    Quote: Argon
    There are new avionics and software for EMDS.

    They promised to reduce the EPR to 1 square from the nose. But this, of course, is a fairy tale.
  21. dmn2
    dmn2 April 3 2013 18: 06 New
    +1
    Quote: Beck
    But with amers, Europe can be negotiated. The period of history after the Second World War showed this.


    Hussein, Gaddafi and Milosevic denied this. It is impossible to agree with the West. They will throw as soon as it is in their interests. Infa 100%. And China understands this.
  22. Valera68
    Valera68 April 3 2013 19: 27 New
    +2
    The fact that China will take with 35 everything that they see fit and quickly implement without any problems is a fact, having all the equipment in the shops. The number of 24 or 48 aircraft is not important for them. Although they want to bend the weak or the dependent from the economy and their philosophy at least, as they have already done on deliveries of our oil from Western Siberia, China still has trouble with the engines, but it is so far. The ability to concentrate, perseverance and simply hard work together with finances give they have the opportunity to skip a lot or shame banally. They usually agree only as a plus to themselves.
  23. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa April 3 2013 22: 29 New
    +2
    Quote: Beck
    And if there are no clubs, there will be nothing to threaten.

    Good evening! Nature does not tolerate emptiness. This is an axiom. We will not sell, the US will do it for us, or someone from NATO will shove their Eurofighter. We are not allowed to miss the Chinese market. To sell him a weapon that requires service, it means to tie Beijing to our military chariot for a long time. And to third countries, we sell MBT with several "other" characteristics. No one is going to lay a mine under his side.
    China has a blue dream: "One China - one system!", And not two, as it is now. So the focus of this transaction, it seems to me, is obvious.

    ,
    1. Beck
      Beck April 3 2013 22: 51 New
      +3
      Quote: BoA KAA
      Good evening! Nature does not tolerate emptiness. This is an axiom. We will not sell, the United States will do it for us, or someone from NATO will shove their Eurofighter.


      Good evening. I wrote at the top. For 30 years now, the West has unshakably held an embargo on the supply of modern military equipment and the latest technology to China. Two years ago, when there was a crisis in Europe, Kitpy volunteered to pay off all debts if Europe lifted the embargo. Europe didn’t do that.
  24. savastyanov
    savastyanov April 3 2013 22: 45 New
    0
    I see no reason in selling other Russian weapons to other states ...
  25. I think so
    I think so April 4 2013 01: 13 New
    0
    That the "fifth column" in Russia has worked and continues to work VERY efficiently. I read almost all commentators NEGATIVE to COOPERATION in the military field with China. But such a position is beneficial and needed ONLY by the Americans. And now they are ALL informational resources and are sent to sow distrust, create conditions for hostility, and even better to organize a CONFLICT between Russia and China. And local "wise men" enthusiastically pick up this idea and praise it. Not far-sighted people and, moreover, rather REAL enemies of their country. Russia already has NO real ally in the world, and it seems that something more or less is being planned, and that the mass of dim-witted "specialists" are suddenly "preoccupied" with selling aircraft to China. And what does these “specialists” care about, not that Russia will receive an ally for the long term, but that this ally will be able to produce better aircraft than Russia. Well, it’s more stupid than an argument and hard to come up with. Firstly, China itself MAY produce such aircraft. Secondly, why take offense at a neighbor if you yourself can’t do something? Who prevents the release of aircraft better and cheaper than China? Its stupidity and stupidity? Well, take this away and no one is a hindrance to you.
    Thirdly, strategic DEFENSE factories should not depend on the FOREIGN EXTERNAL market. But they are both DEFENSE and STRATEGIC. And complete nonsense to take care of export for these enterprises. These enterprises ANYWHERE need to be fed and maintained at the highest level, and not "worry" ah how then will they sell their planes? Their task is not to sell planes abroad, but to ARM their army with good equipment. And what and who is selling where these plants should not be worried at all. But the "patriots" do not understand this and are afraid of the "theft" of technology by their ALLIANCE.
  26. Takashi
    Takashi April 4 2013 10: 07 New
    0
    The Chinese have only one problem with cloning - engines.
    Armament, glider, electronics - all this they themselves can create and are creating.
    Why they can’t reproduce the engines, what is stopping them, one can only guess.
    Maybe Chinese students in special Engine Engineering have offloaded?
    :)
    1. Beck
      Beck April 4 2013 10: 34 New
      +3
      Quote: Takashi
      The Chinese have only one problem with cloning - engines. Weapons, airframes, electronics - all this they themselves can create and are creating. Why they can not reproduce the engines, what prevents them, one can only guess. Maybe Chinese students in special Engine Engineering - uploaded? :)


      That’s the fact that they aimed to do a glider, electronics studying and imitating the Su-27 and MiG-29. And the engine will eventually be copied from the Su-35. Just as one Varyag aircraft carrier was bought, the Chinese engineers put it on a dry dock for three years, and these three years, the whole ship climbed on its knees. They measured, took samples, calculated unknown lines of technology. After that, Varyag was brought to mind for two years and launched into the water. Tested, correlated this with dry dock data И laid in their shipyards SEVEN aircraft carriers of the Varyag type, but already modernized.
    2. fzr1000
      fzr1000 April 4 2013 14: 52 New
      -1
      I think so (not to be confused with one nickname here on the forum) that they cannot accurately reproduce our heat-resistant alloys for turbine blades, combustion chambers and nozzles. Hence the small overhaul resource. Metal in China is generally r ... but, faced with the import of raw materials from there, the raw material itself is worse.
  27. fzr1000
    fzr1000 April 4 2013 14: 53 New
    0
    I think so (not to be confused with one nickname here on the forum) that they cannot accurately reproduce our heat-resistant alloys for turbine blades, combustion chambers and nozzles. Hence the small overhaul resource. Metal in China is generally r ... but, faced with the import of raw materials from there, the raw material itself is worse.
  28. Kazbek
    Kazbek April 9 2013 09: 54 New
    +1
    The Chinese are not fools, since they take it, it makes sense if only then it doesn’t work out sideways. Now they are white and fluffy and tomorrow they will make territorial claims. They will buy 10 pieces and they will not be the first to engage in scammers.