Military Review

How Peter I cut the door to the East

39
How Peter I cut the door to the East

Peter I, despite his shortcomings, undoubtedly possessed strategic thinking. The victory over Sweden returned to Russia the ancient Novgorod lands along the shores of the Gulf of Finland and the mouth of the Neva. Received the Russian state and the Baltic States, with Riga and Reval.


But Russia was never able to go to the Mediterranean Sea. Even Azov, after the unsuccessful Prut campaign of 1711, had to be returned to the Ottomans. Not only the Black Sea straits, but also the mouths of the Danube, Dniester, Dnieper and Don belonged to Turkey. In fact, the Black Sea was the inland sea of ​​the Ottoman Empire, like the Sea of ​​Marmara. Its shores belonged to Turkey, its vassal - the Crimean Khanate and Cherkessia. But once the Black Sea was rightly called the Russian, and the Russians stood firmly on its shores. Under Peter, it was not possible to gain a foothold on the shores of the Black Sea. Although a lot of manpower and resources were spent, thousands of people in the Azov campaigns were lost, the Azov fleet was built.

Petersburg becoming a serious factor in European politics, could not part with the thought of the East. As a matter of fact, история shows that the east (southeast) direction has always been crucial for Russia. Peter would not have been one of the greatest statesmen of the Russian state if he had given up on the idea of ​​establishing himself in the East. Peter wanted to pave the way through Central Asia to rich India. Pyotr Alekseevich understood that without creating and strengthening a new economic base, Russia could not be a great power, and for this it was necessary to firmly become on world communications.

First of all, the attention of the king was riveted on Persia, which could be the key to the wealth of India. Peter has already tried to pave the path to India. 2 June 1714, the king issued a decree "On the premise of the Transfiguration of the regiment captain Lieutenant Prince. Alexander Bekovich-Cherkassky to find the mouths of the Darya River ... ”. Thus began the preparation of a military campaign against the Khiva Khanate. Alexander Bekovich-Cherkassky (before the adoption of Christianity - Devlet-Girei-Murza) was instructed to: investigate the old course of the Amudarya River and the possibilities to turn it into the old bed (there was an assumption that there is gold in this area); persuade Khiva Khan in Russian citizenship; on the way to Khiva, and especially at the mouth of the Amudarya, to build fortresses; Established in Khiva, try to persuade the citizenship of Bukhara Khan; to conduct reconnaissance from Khiva to Hindustan for the construction of a trade route. Bekovich get a detachment in 4 thousand soldiers. 2 Thousands of Yaik and Greben Cossacks and 100 Dragoons. In 1716, the expedition was being trained in Astrakhan. In 1717, the expedition began. Khiva Khan gathered a large army, but was defeated in a three-day battle. Then he entered into peace negotiations with Bekovich and suggested that the detachment of the detachment into five parts, so that it was easier to feed the local residents. It was a military trick. All Russian troops were destroyed separately. Bekovich died. Few managed to escape. Expedition failed.

In 1723, Peter returned to the idea of ​​a breakthrough to the East. Vice Admiral Daniel Wilster, a Danish naval officer who transferred to the Russian service, designed the project for the Madagascar (Indian) expedition. The objectives of this secret mission were to provide a Russian protectorate to the pirates of Madagascar to create a Russian base in the Indian Ocean and to establish trade relations with the Mughal empire in India. In the autumn of 1723, two frigates were prepared for a voyage into the Indian Ocean, to Madagascar, in deep secrecy and very quickly in Reval. Two Russian commanders of both frigates were appointed as advisers to Wilster: Lieutenant Commander DI Myasnoy, commander of the Amsterdam-Galei frigate, and Lieutenant Commander M. Kiselev, senior officer of the Dekrondelivde frigate. Vice-Admiral Daniel Jakob Wilster had to promise the Madagascar chief of the filibusters protection of Russia and protection against all enemies, and even if he expresses a desire to bring him to live in the Russian Empire. Then the detachment had to go to India and try to persuade the “great-moghul” to enter into commercial relations with the Russian state. Unfortunately, the technical condition of the ships failed, they could not perform such a long march. In addition, the failure was facilitated by the wrong choice of ships and the haste of their preparation. In addition, the squad set off in the winter months, uncomfortable for swimming (December 21). This has already forced 8 on January 1724, the ships return to Revel. After this, Peter canceled the expedition.

It should be noted that India was tempting for Peter Alekseevich from childhood, from Alexandria. It was a novel that came to Russia, semi-fantastic in content, about Alexander the Great's campaign in India. Having reigned with his elder brother Ivan, Peter did not forget the fairy-tale country, and in 1694, he sent merchant Seeds the Little to India. The merchant was tasked to collect as much information as possible about the eastern country. The merchant was provided with money and goods from the sovereign treasury. In Astrakhan, Semyon Malykiy was given to comrades Ivan Sevrin's fellow man, accompanied by a kisser, interpreter (translator) and a convoy. Astrakhan voivode gave letters to the Persian and Indian rulers. In November, 1694, the guest Semen Little, with a trade caravan, reached Persia. From there, with the merchants, the king's messenger came to India, visited a number of its cities, including Delhi and Agra. Semyon the Little was introduced to the ruler of the Mughal dynasty, handing him his credentials. Apparently, the merchant led the king and travel notes.

After selling all the goods, Simon the Little went back. This time he decided to get to Persia by sea. However, in the Persian Gulf, their vessel was looted by pirates from the island of Bahrain. The Tsar's envoy died in Shamakhi, and other members of the expedition were killed. Only Ivan Sevrin got to Astrakhan.

The failure of the detachment Bekovich-Cherkassky and Madagascar venture, did not change the intentions of Peter Alekseevich. His plan struck with its strategic swing - to find a way to India, by land or sea. Moreover, Peter wanted to explore the way through the Arctic Ocean, for this purpose they equipped Vitus Bering expedition. And yet the most studied, easier to reach and convenient was the ancient way from Russia along the Volga and the Caspian Sea to Persia and further India. It was in this way that Oriental goods, including Indian goods, went to the Russian land. Part of this trade route belonged to Russia and was equipped. Nizhny Novgorod became a major shopping center. Here were built ships for navigation on the Volga and the Caspian Sea. Astrakhan, the southern gate of Russia and also an important shopping center, stood at the mouth of the Volga. Russian guest merchants fully mastered the Caspian (Khvalynskoe) Sea and sailed to the southern Caspian coast, to the trading cities of Rasht, Enzeli and Baku. But there was no further way. The further way to rich India was controlled by the Persians.

It is believed that by the year 1710, Peter Alekseevich had finally matured the idea of ​​a military expedition along the Caucasian coast of the Caspian Sea to the south, to Persia. At the same time, calls for military assistance came from Georgia and Armenia. A.P. Volynsky in his "Justification of the Persian Case" reported that Peter was informed about the state of Persian affairs by the Georgian and Armenian patriarchs. They did not want to live under the yoke of the Persians and repeatedly asked the Russian tsar to help. Volinsky informed Peter Alekseevich from Astrakhan that the Georgian Tsar Vakhtang VI was asking Russia to protect Christians living in the Caucasus, and suggested starting joint military actions against Persia. King Vakhtang reported that Persia is weak and the Persians will not be able to resist the Russian-Georgian troops. He promised to put 30-40 thousand soldiers against Persia. Similar messages were coming from Armenia. Armenian ruler Minas Vardaped asked to support the long-suffering Armenian people. Catholicos Nerses wrote to Peter about the plight of Christians in the countries of the Muslim East and that they were waiting for the help of Russia of the same faith.

All such correspondence went through the Astrakhan governor, through the Embassy court of the governor. The most diverse intelligence information about the state of the Persian armed forces, the power of the rebels, who opposed the Shah, about the possible help that Russian troops could get from Ossetia, Kabarda, Georgia and the Armenian population of Transcaucasia flowed here. Thanks to the efforts of Volkonsky between Russia and Persia an agreement was concluded that was beneficial for the Russian merchants. Russians and Armenians got the right to build their churches in Armenia; Russian merchants received the right of free trade, without customs inspection; it was allowed to export raw silk through Russia to other countries, which made it possible to monopolize a significant part of the silk trade; it was allowed to build a large jetty on the western shore of the Caspian Sea; in the event of the collapse of a Russian ship near the Persian coast, the local authorities had to return the goods and not take the team prisoner.

Preparation and the beginning of the Persian campaign

Peter Alekseevich understood that in order to pave the way to India, it was necessary to firmly stand on the Caucasian and Persian shores of the Caspian Sea. Moreover, for this it was necessary to make significant military efforts. Everything was decided by brute force. For this, it was decided to organize a Persian (Caspian) expedition. The base for the preparation of the campaign was Astrakhan. It was the main port of Russia in the Caspian; the small Caspian military was also based here. flotilla. Persia did not have a navy in order to facilitate the task of seizing a bridgehead on the Persian coast.

Even before the march, a certain intelligence of the Caspian was accomplished. In 1710, Captain Jacob Rental sent to Astrakhan traveled south with the merchants to find a convenient harbor for ships. Rental in a memorandum to Admiral F. M. Apraksin wrote that such a place had been found and examined. He proposed to build a pier in the bay of Baku, asking permission of Khan Shemakhi, a vassal of the Shah of Persia. Peter was acquainted with the results of this expedition.

The governor of Astrakhan, and then part of the vast Astrakhan province included - Guriev-Yaitsky, Dmitrievsk, Petrovsk, Samara, Simbirsk, Syzran, Terki, Tsaritsyn, Krasny Yar, Cherny Yar and Kizlyar, had an instruction to map the Caspian Sea. The main work was done by Lieutenant Fyodor Soymonov and Captain Jacob Rental. The drawn map was called the “Flat picture of the Caspian Sea from the mouth of the Volga of the river to the Yarkovsky channel to the mouth of the Kura ...”.

At the end of 1721, a sawmill was erected in Astrakhan for sawmill sawing. This allowed in the 1722 year to begin building "island" (seaworthy) boats and flippers of vessels intended for the carriage of goods, including military. Each such punt took on board several flippers of a load, and the flipper by weight was equal to 120 poods. They built them in a great hurry, waiting for the emperor to arrive. Along the Volga came caravans with provisions for the troops: bread, corned beef, vinegar and white wine. But the military did not have enough bread, so Volynsky requisitioned surplus food from the population. Surpluses were selected in favor of the treasury with the condition of return.

In February, 1722, Peter began preparations for the march. The troops were concentrated in the cities of the Upper Volga - Yaroslavl, Tver, Uglich. It was ordered to build 200 island boats and 45 fins. By the end of May, the boats and ships were ready and they were concentrated in Nizhny Novgorod. By this time, troops were also concentrated in Nizhny Novgorod. These included the two regiments of the Peter's guard, tried and tested in battles - Preobrazhensky and Semenovsky. Among them were many experienced people who more than once went on oars and sails, taking part in river, lake and sea fights.

2 June, the first ships from Nizhny Novgorod moved to Astrakhan. Each island boat took on board up to 40 soldiers with weapons and equipment. In the first half of July, 1722, all ships and troops arrived at the designated location. The Caspian military flotilla was created, like everything else in Peter the Great, at a rapid pace and with great effort. Petr Alekseevich personally laid the Astrakhan sea port in the summer of 1722, where ships intended for the cruise were collected. 4 November 1722 of the year issued an official decree establishing the military port. At the same time, the construction of a large shipyard began. A fast-growing military camp appeared at the pier of the Ivanovsky monastery on the Kutum River. Peter personally inspected all vessels intended for the expedition. Shortcomings were eliminated on the spot. For the storage of drinking water on ships during the march 1 thousand barrels were manufactured. There was so much work that the emperor ordered the release of all Astrakhan convicts held in the Astrakhan prison, except for the murderers,

The transport ships were divided into 5 units: the first commander was Hesler’s capital, the second was Vilboa’s capital, the third was lieutenant commander Prince Vasily Urusov, the fourth was lieutenant commander Peter Pushkin, and the fifth was lieutenant commander Ivan Urusov.

The fleet in the Caspian Sea created in the shortest possible time. Experienced commanders from the Baltic Sea arrived to strengthen the crews. It is clear that the Caspian frigates, heckboats, shnyavs, bombardier ships, brigantines, galleys, yachts, bots, and galliot were by no means distinguished for their high combat and seaworthy qualities. They were built in a hurry, and they had many defects. Yes, and their names are striking variety. In particular, heckboats, which were built in Nizhny Novgorod, were named after cities and localities — Nizhny Novgorod, Simbirsk, Tsaritsyn, Tmutarakan, Ararat, etc. Hekbots, which were built in Kazan, had Caucasian and Persian names: "Gilan", "Dagestan", etc. Many of the ship names were associated with Roman and Greek mythology: "Mars", "Venus", "Vulcan", "Mercurios" and others. The messengers of the ships were named for their purpose: " The Postman, Courier, Sokol, and others. The Caspian flotilla was headed by Fedor Matveyevich Apraksin.

Before the beginning of the Russian campaign in Persia, a real internecine war began, which allowed Peter to intervene in the conflict, supporting the legitimate authority, against which half the country had fought. To establish contact with the Shah, officer Stepan Chebotaev was sent to Shamakhi with “special letters and manifestos”. The results of this mission are unknown, apparently, it has not reached its goal.

2 July in Georgia to the king Vakhtang was sent with letters to the imperial envoy Prince Boris Turhistanov. He had to hand over to the Georgian tsar, who planned to stand on the side of Peter, so that the Georgian troops "would not bring about any ruin and distress" to the local population. This could lead to the flight of people and their irritation, which made the Persian campaign difficult.

It was decided to perform in the summer of 1722, although not all preparations were completed. This was due to the great uprising in the eastern regions of Persia. This uprising made it difficult for the Shah of Persia to organize defense. Shah's troops were busy in the other direction. In addition, there was a reason for interfering in Persian affairs. Peter could explain his enterprise by wanting to help the “friendly” shah in the fight against the rebels.

The blessing was found and a convenient occasion to start the hike. A Russian merchant caravan was defeated in the town of Shamakhi. Russian merchants were robbed and "beaten." Shemakha Khan and his warriors were indifferent witnesses to the attack (they may have been in the lot). Russia's demand for the return of the loot was ignored by the owner of Shamakhi.

15 July 1722, the Persian campaign began. On this day, ships with troops began to leave Astrakhan, heading for the Volga mouth, and then into the open sea and toward the Caucasian coast. The main forces left 18 July. Beyond the mouth of the Volga, the ships joined together in detachments.

Forward to the flotilla and ground forces, an appeal was sent by the Russian emperor to the Persians and other peoples living on the western shore of the Caspian Sea. The document was written in Persian and Tatar and reproduced as a proclamation. Petr Alekseevich announced that he was going to help "our faithful friend and neighbor", the Persian Shah against the rebels. In the same appeal, it was reported that the rebels, who rebelled against their people, and the Russian people "innocently and unmercifully chopped up", looted goods for 4 million rubles. Thus, agreements between the states were violated. The Russian monarch promised the local population to protect and protect their lives and property from possible looting and violence from the Russian troops. This promise of the emperor was not an empty sound and attracted to the Russian sympathy both the residents of Dagestan and Persia. The discipline of the Russian troops was one of the reasons for the success of the Persian campaign.

The campaign began simultaneously on the sea and on land. The ships and vessels of the Caspian flotilla were carried by troops, artillery and stocks. Regular cavalry (dragoons) and irregular cavalry marched by the shore. The cavalry entered Dagestan through the Mozdok steppe.

To be continued ...
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Articles from this series:
How Peter I cut the door to the East
As Peter I cut through the "door" to the East. Part of 2
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  1. Prometey
    Prometey April 1 2013 10: 46
    +1
    In 1714, Prince Bekovich-Cherkassky wrote a note to Peter, in which he outlined the benefits of strengthening Russia in the Caucasus. It was proposed to annex Dagestan to Russia and establish a strong fortified fortress with a permanent garrison on the border with Persia. Later it was planned to begin the development of the Transcaucasian provinces. Peter remembered or not what his comrade-in-arms suggested to him, but (the author will forgive me for running ahead) in 1722-1723. Peter essentially partially implemented this project.
  2. nakaz
    nakaz April 1 2013 11: 38
    +2
    Only such tough, decent, strong-willed leaders can lead the country to success.
  3. Horde
    Horde April 1 2013 11: 56
    +2
    Its shores belonged to Turkey, its vassal -
    Crimean Khanate and Circassia.


    CHERKESS-artificially created people appeared
    after the end of the so-called "Russian-Circassian" war
    ended in 1864 Romanovskaya Russia finished off
    remnants of EMPIRE all over the world. In all OLD
    there are NO CIRCESSIONS on the maps, BUT THERE IS CHERKASSIA
    -Russian state where religion was something in between
    between Islam, Molokans, Manichaeans, state
    languages ​​Russian, Tatar.
    Here is the late map of the second half of 18 in on the map clearly
    The names CHERKASSIA are presented.

    Map of Tartaria Guillaume de Lily (1688-1768), French
    astronomer and cartographer, member of the Paris Academy of Sciences (1702).
    He also published the world atlas (1700-1714). B 1725-47
    worked in Russia, was an academician and the first
    Director of Academic Astronomical
    observatory, since 1747 - foreign honorary
    member of the Petersburg

    the map of 1820 is rather small, but it’s clear
    what's between the Black and Caspian Seas Cherkasy


    Its shores belonged to Turkey, its vassal - to the Crimean Khanate and Circassia


    For some reason, the so-called Crimean Khanate is not displayed on any ancient map, Instead of it Tartaria Malaya.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak April 1 2013 14: 24
      +4
      Again you Horde confused Cherkasy with Cherkessia, Gogol with Hegel, Babel with Bebel ....
      1. Horde
        Horde April 1 2013 15: 39
        -6
        Quote: Nagaibak
        Again you Horde confused Cherkasy with Cherkessia, Gogol with Hegel, Babel with Bebel ....


        you know how to read Nagaybak or dumb into balls?
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 1 2013 17: 52
          +1
          Horde "you know how to read Nagaybak or do you dumb into balls?"
          Rude is not good. Hehe ...
          CHERKESS-artificially created people- Are you absolutely stupid Horde? You tell the Circassians hehe .. they will quickly explain to you about their "artificiality".
          "AND THERE IS CHERKASSIA
          -Russian state where religion was something in between
          between Islam, Molokans, Manichaeans, state
          languages ​​Russian, Tatar. "
          This inflamed state probably contains this state. And your cards are really nothing ...
          1. Horde
            Horde April 1 2013 19: 28
            +3
            Are you a completely stupid Horde? You tell the Circassians hehe .. they will quickly explain to you about their "artificiality".


            with you Nagaybak everything is clear, you are one of those clever dead-ends who believe that Europeans live in Europe, Americans in America, Australians in Australia, and Africans in Africa. Primitivism is about you. "Why bother, after all, it is written in black in Russian Circassia" and the fact that the topic of the article is historical and it is worth paying attention to the dates - have you forgotten about it? What I am writing now is no longer you, but for the rest, who love history, not beautiful pictures. laughing .
            If 50 thousand Circassians lived in this area in 2010, then how many do you think lived by the end of the 19th century? So I will say in the Terek region according to the 1897 census there were 4.5 thousand, what kind of people are they? even the Chukchi was no longer that moment. Well, now estimate how many there were at the time of Peter? And also on the maps that I brought Cherkasy this is a huge area from the Caspian to the Black Seas.

            This inflamed state probably contains this state. And your cards are really nothing


            you have problems not only with the visual perception of reality, but also with the processing of information - "can your head hurt after all it is a bone?" laughing

            excerpt from the 1897 census.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak April 1 2013 20: 42
              0
              Horde "What I am writing now is no longer you, but for the rest, who love history, not pretty pictures"
              What I see is your pictures. On which you build your conclusions and fantasies. But it’s hard to say with facts. So you start poking, mumbling.
              Horde "If 50 thousand Circassians lived in this area in 2010, then how many of them lived by the end of the 19th century, so I will say in the Terek region, according to the 1897 census, there were 4.5 thousand of them, what kind of people are they? Even the Chukchi were no longer that moment . "
              Especially for the gifted. You consider yourself as such. I inform you that the Circassians after the Caucasian war went into exile, the movement of Muhajirs. They settled in Turkey and Jordan. In general, the Circassian peoples include not only the Circassians themselves. But other related peoples google to help you. Smallpox in the 18th century influenced the number of Kabardins, for example. And so they brought a lot of trouble to Russia on the southern borders. So, you have not discovered anything significant. So, that in a small number of Circassians there is nothing unusual.
              Are you all discovering America? It is unclear how you process the information? And everyone is trying to convict me hehe ... hedge on elementary things of level 8 class. And before you blame someone for primitivism, try to read more, rather than consider pictures.
              1. Horde
                Horde April 1 2013 21: 05
                0
                Quote: Nagaibak
                I inform you that the Circassians after the Caucasian war went into exile, the movement of Muhajirs. They settled in Turkey and Jordan.


                you Nagaybak are predictable, like a copper penny, I know that I sent the poor Circassians to distant lands beyond the blue seas, and I’ll even say more than what even you don’t know; it turns out that there is a Circassian diaspora in Germany, these idiots were recently shown - "we don’t want the Sochi Olympics, get off the ground our "
                Well, this is the policy of the Romanovs; there were a hundred peoples living in the Caucasus; therefore, making any Circassians from the wild and illiterate highlanders was easier than ever. The Circassians appeared on the map of the Caucasus because it was necessary to hide the existence of the Cherkasy Cossacks, just like MANCHURIA and DAURIA (opposite the Horde) appeared on the site of Chinese Tartaria, as well as all sorts of Central Asian states on the site of INDEPENDENT TARTARIA.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak April 2 2013 06: 18
                  +1
                  The horde "you Nagaybak are predictable, like a copper penny, I know that I sent the poor Circassians to distant lands beyond the blue seas, and I will even say more than what even you do not know. It turns out that there is a Circassian diaspora in Germany, these idiots were recently shown -" we do not want the Sochi Olympics, away from our land "
                  Actually, there were Ubykhs in the Sochi region and they left ... heh heh .. Do you question this fact? Your business. Instead, the tsarist government settled these places with Armenians and ... Estonians. Surprisingly.
                  Cherkasy was in Ukraine there, and there is such a city at this time. And in this area was the city of Chigirin. Bogdan Khmelnitsky hails from those places. Here those who in Russia called Cherkasy and lived. And you populate them in the Nogai steppes.
                  "Horde, as well as all sorts of Central Asian states on the site of the INDEPENDENT TARTARIA."
                  I didn’t know that the existence of the Central Asian states was called into question by you.
                  1. Horde
                    Horde April 2 2013 10: 19
                    -1
                    Cherkasy was in Ukraine there, and there is such a city at this time. And in this area was the city of Chigirin. Bogdan Khmelnitsky hails from those places. Here those who in Russia called Cherkasy and lived. And you populate them in the Nogai steppes.

                    this is called "have you been to Ukraine?" 1706g French card is also not true?
                    and if you can’t read what is written on the map yourself, then call someone.
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak April 2 2013 18: 38
                      0
                      Horde "This is called" were in Ukraine? "Is the French map 1706 also not true?"
                      According to your picture. There, the Latin alphabet describes the steppe and wild field. So a map was made from our words.
                      Cherkasy is located on the Don with Don Cossacks. What do you want to prove with a card? In any case, the Don is closer to Ukraine than the Kuban hehe .. maybe you think differently?
                      The Astrakhan Tatars and Nogai Tatars are registered as you like through the letter "R". Tartars. Even the Grebensk Cossacks are mentioned.
                      1. Horde
                        Horde April 2 2013 20: 09
                        0
                        Do you think differently?

                        Did you pretend to be a hose? -This means that if there is a border on the map, but inside there is some name "CHERKASKAYA PART OF CHERKASSIA", it says that inside there are people with that name, and not herds of horses and not bulls, and not Circassians. It's pretty disgusting to talk to you that way.
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak April 2 2013 21: 14
                        0
                        [quote = Horde] [quote] Do you think differently? [/ quote]
                        "Did you pretend to be a hose? -This means that if there is a border on the map, but inside there is some name" CHERKASKAYA PART OF CHERKASSIA ", then it says that inside there are people with that name, and not herds of horses and not bulls, and not Circassians . It's pretty disgusting to talk to you that way. "
                        For your French, it was so to them that Cherkasy is in Ukraine, that in the Caucasus are Circassians.
                        And how do you explain that inscription on the Don. After all, Cherkasy is also written there?
                      3. Horde
                        Horde April 2 2013 21: 23
                        0
                        For your French, it was so to them that Cherkasy was in Ukraine, that in the Caucasus, Circassians.

                        all around go one you know more and better, and that cartographers built THOUSAND CARDS with TARTARIA, CHERKASSY, then we certainly don’t have a pointer, I read a TEXTBOOK on the history of the Middle Ages, however. Fools are French, and Nagaybak is smart.
                        Nagaybaku, that on the forehead, that on the forehead, I’ll close the jab and see nothing.
                      4. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 14
                        0
                        Horde "Nagaybaku, that on the forehead, that on the forehead, I will close the hlaza and see nothing."
                        Everything is clear with you Horde. Come on, bye bye ...
                    2. Horde
                      Horde April 3 2013 12: 08
                      0
                      And how do you explain that inscription on the Don. After all, Cherkasy is also written there?


                      indeed, all administrative divisions of these territories and the reasons why this was done are not very clear now, but one thing is clear
                      -CHERKASSY -Cossacks and even more likely the whole people of the region living from the Ukrainian, Dnieper steppes, there were cities in Ukraine Cherkasy, to the Caspian and Black Seas on that are maps and ours and not ours.
                      -Cherkess ARTIFICIAL people cobbled together from the mountain tribes by the Romanovs, to conceal the facts of the existence of CHERKASSES.
                      the fact that you DO NOT SEE the cards is perhaps your personal problem.
                    3. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak April 3 2013 14: 23
                      0
                      Horde "the fact that you DO NOT SEE the cards is probably your own problem."
                      Evidence, as always, in the maps will we look for?
              2. alexandr00070
                alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 42
                0
                Quote: Nagaibak
                Horde "This is called" were in Ukraine? "Is the French map 1706 also not true?"
                According to your picture. There, the Latin alphabet describes the steppe and wild field. So a map was made from our words.
                Cherkasy is located on the Don with Don Cossacks. What do you want to prove with a card? In any case, the Don is closer to Ukraine than the Kuban hehe .. maybe you think differently?
                The Astrakhan Tatars and Nogai Tatars are registered as you like through the letter "R". Tartars. Even the Grebensk Cossacks are mentioned.

                that is, you did not understand that they are talking to you not about Ukraine, but about the Cossack territory on the Don depicted and recognized on foreign maps, but about Tartary through the "r" I'm afraid you won't understand
              3. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 18
                0
                alexandr00070 "well, about tartaria through" p "I'm afraid you won't understand"
                I don’t understand when they say that the Circassians are an artificial people.
              4. alexandr00070
                alexandr00070 April 4 2013 23: 29
                +1
                Quote: Nagaibak
                I don’t understand when they say that the Circassians are an artificial people.

                the very name "Circassians" was artificially applied to the name of all mountain peoples. You will not object to the fact that by calling Dagestanis Dagestanis we infringe on the rights of more than 50 different nationalities of mountaineers living in Dagestan, well, there are Kumyks, etc. It doesn't bother you, everyone from the Kuban to the Ottomans was called Circassians
      2. alexandr00070
        alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 22
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        Actually, the Ubykhs lived in the Sochi region and they left ... heh heh ..


        how is everything superficial with you:
        Ubykh (self-name: Ubykhsk. Pehu) - a people related in culture and life to the Adygs, Abazins and Abkhazians. Until 1864, they lived on the Caucasian coast of the Black Sea, between the rivers. Shahe and Khosta (the so-called Ubykhiya) (about 50 thousand people). They were engaged in gardening, livestock breeding, profitable raiding, and the slave trade [1].
        The Ubykhs are one of the Circassian tribes, very mixed in composition, the closest branch of one of the most aristocratic Circassian tribes, the Abadzekhs, with whom the Ubykhs once made up one people and lived together on the southwestern slope of the Caucasus Range, between pp. White and Afips. Subsequently, having separated, the Ubykhs occupied territories near the Black Sea coast, along the southwestern slope of the Caucasus Range, between pp. Khosta and Shah, in the gorges along the river. Ubykh, a tributary of the Shah, in the valleys of Tuapse, Pseztan, Mzdymt and other small rivers flowing into the Black Sea.

        Quote: Nagaibak
        Cherkasy was in Ukraine there and the city is still
        attaching.

        well, just like a little kid

        The first written mentions of the "Cherkassky town" date back to 1593. At the same time, according to VN Tatishchev in his "History of Russia from the most ancient times" and NA Markevich in "History of Little Russia", the village was founded under the name "city of Cherkassky" by Cherkassians under Tsar Ivan the Terrible during the expedition led by Prince Vishnevetsky, the Cherkasy headman, to help Astrakhan besieged by the Turks in 1569 [1] [2].

        between the Sea of ​​Azov and the Caspian Sea a new warlike republic has been formed, made up of people who speak our language, profess our faith ...; they took the city of Akhas, they called it, I think, Cherkassky, or Kozach (for both this and the other name signified one thing) ...
        - Karamzin N.M. History of Russian Goverment. Volume 8 [3]
        In 1637, the Azov campaign, also known as the "Azov Seat", began from Starocherkassk, when, taking the Turkish fortress of Azov, the Cossacks defended it for four years (1637-1641). The Turks brutally avenged their offenders: in 1643 they captured and completely burned Cherkassk, but the next year the city was restored and fortified.

        In the same 1644, the Main Stan moved to Cherkassk and the city became the capital of the Don Cossack army. And in 1650, according to the vow given in the Azov Seat, a wooden Resurrection Military Cathedral was built. In the square near the cathedral (Maidan), the Army Circles gather.
        In 1667, the uprising of Stepan Razin, the Cossack of the Cherkasy village of Zimoveyskaya, began, but, according to some information, was a native of Cherkassk, and in 1708 the leader of another uprising, Kondraty Bulavin, was killed in his kuren.

        In 1751, the church of the apostles Peter and Paul was consecrated, in which ataman Platov, later known as ataman, was baptized. All Cossack campaigns of that period began from another Cherkasy church - the Transfiguration of the Lord, built in the XNUMXth century in the battlefield, in the cemetery of Cherkassk.

        In 1744, Cherkassk almost completely burned out and later could not fully recover. In the spring, Don spills regularly flooded the city. Therefore, as well as due to constant fires, in 1804 a decision was made to establish the new capital of the Region of the Don Army, and in 1805 it was moved to Novocherkassk, after which Cherkassk became known as Starocherkassk, and by the end of the XNUMXth century it lost its status cities.

        After all, you talked about Cherkasy Cossacks from Cherkassk, not Cherkasy
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 21
          0
          alexandr00070 "You were told about the Cherkassk Cossacks from Cherkassk, not Cherkassy"
          The fact that you have indicated here is known information.
          1. alexandr00070
            alexandr00070 April 4 2013 23: 30
            +1
            Quote: Nagaibak
            The fact that you have indicated here is known information.

            So what does not suit you
    2. kroog
      kroog April 3 2013 00: 01
      0
      You will not believe, it turns out that the Circassian diaspora exists in almost all countries of the world, as, indeed, Chinese, Russian, Italian. Irish, Jewish, Armenian.
      I do not try to protect the Circassians, I have lived in this region for a long time, I don’t have a special love for them, but, nevertheless, I try to be objective
    3. alexandr00070
      alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 08
      +2
      Quote: Horde
      Cherkasy Cossacks, just like MANCHURIA and DAURIA (opposite the Horde) appeared on the site of Chinese Tartaria, as well as all sorts of Central Asian states on the site of INDEPENDENT TARTARIA.

      This is too much for him ...................... smoke now
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 23
        -2
        alexandr00070 "This is too much for him ...................... will smoke now.
        I don’t smoke hehe ... and I really don’t take insanity with tartaria on faith, unlike you.
        1. alexandr00070
          alexandr00070 April 5 2013 00: 12
          +1
          Quote: Nagaibak
          I don’t smoke hehe ... and I really don’t take insanity with tartaria on faith, unlike you.


          that is, historical maps, foreign to you is not confirmation,
  4. alexandr00070
    alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 06
    +1
    Quote: Nagaibak
    You consider yourself as such. I inform you that the Circassians after the Caucasian war went into exile, the movement of Muhajirs. They settled in Turkey and Jordan. In general, the Circassian peoples include not only the Circassians themselves. But other related peoples google to help you.


    Currently, the ethnonym Cherkess continues to be used abroad in relation to the descendants of the Circassian muhajirs, as well as the descendants of the Circassian Mamluks living in the Adyghe diaspora. Sometimes the ethnonym "Circassians" means not only Circassians, but also representatives of all the North Caucasian peoples who were also expelled or resettled abroad during and after the end of the Caucasian War.

    At present, in Russia, the term Cherkess (self-name: Adyghe) in addition to the above meaning is a designation of Adygs [5] living in Karachay-Cherkessia, Adygea and Kabardino-Balkaria (Russia). Circassians have a population of 73,2 thousand people, including 56,5 thousand people in Karachay-Cherkessia (trans. 2010). They live in 17 villages of the Karachay-Cherkess Republic.

    This article is specifically about the "Circassians" in the administrative-territorial sense of the term, and not about the Circassian (Adyghe) people as a whole.
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 29
      0
      alexandr00070 "This article is about the" Circassians "in the administrative-territorial sense of the term, and not about the Circassian (Adyghe) people in general."
      1. Actually, this article was about cutting through the gate to the east ... hehe ..
      "and not about the Circassian (Adyghe) people in general."
      2. So it was necessary to say ... otherwise artificial people ...
  • kroog
    kroog April 2 2013 23: 56
    0
    There were few Circassians by the end of the 19th century due to the Caucasian War, where the Circassians lost a lot of people, plus a very large part of them emigrated to Turkey and the Middle East, some of the remaining Circassians formally changed their nationality for the census, turning into Kabardins, Circassians, Shapsugs and other nationalities living in the North Caucasus and having, in fact, a single language
    1. alexandr00070
      alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 47
      +1
      Quote: kroog
      There were few Circassians by the end of the 19th century due to the Caucasian War, where the Circassians lost a lot of people, plus a very large part of them emigrated to Turkey and the Middle East, some of the remaining Circassians formally changed their nationality for the census, turning into Kabardins, Circassians, Shapsugs and other nationalities living in the North Caucasus and having, in fact, a single language

      damn the other way around, I repeat

      The ethnonym Cherkess and the toponym Cherkessia, starting from the 5th century, has been used to refer to the Adyghe people and their country in the North Caucasus, replacing the previous ethnonymic nomenclature - Kerkets, Zikhi, Dzhiki, Kashagi, Kasa, Kasogi, etc. [5]. The ethnonym Cherkess became commonly used in European and Russian sources of the 5th-XNUMXth centuries, although it is worth noting that all Circassians (Adygs) invariably called themselves Adyge [XNUMX]. As a result of the consequences of the Russian-Caucasian war, administrative transformations of the tsarist government in the XNUMXth century, and later of the Soviet government, the Adyghe (Circassian) people in their homeland were divided into many enclaves, most of which were administratively territorially united into four massifs, called shapsugs , Kabardins, Adyghe and Circassians [XNUMX].
      Circassians are people. It consists of two principles: “Circ” - circle and “assian / assassin” - professional warrior. That is, if we look at the drawing of the village of the XVI century, drawn by Jean Baptiste Tavernier in 1678 - the first thing that catches your eye is the appearance of a round settlement similar to a fortification and a military unit guarding the entrance to the temple, led by an armed horseman. The overwhelming majority of people who have seen such species and came to the conclusion that they face an extremely warlike people, leading a military way of life. Hence the entrenched name "Circassian" (Circassian). The round shape of the villages of the Circassians remained for thousands of years.
      The round shape of the villages of the Circassians remained for thousands of years. Recent studies of the RAS expedition on the Kabardinsky ridge showed that the circular form of settlement existed as early as the XNUMXth century BC. e. and was not accidental. The very first excavations at the site of these settlements showed that the round village imitated the disk of the sun located on the ground, originally called a daisy, and the houses with Circassians living in such houses symbolized its rays. The important thing is how the Circassians see themselves, being in a close interweaving of intrageneric and intercultural relations. The Adyge self-name is “adyghe” - (A-arm or ray, dygye - sun or ray of sun). Adygs (Circassians) perceived the rays of the sun behind his hands with which it strokes nature and it blooms in response. In the round village, every Adyghe (Circassian) house is a ray of sunshine coming from the center of the village, where the Temple of the Sun with a guarded entrance was located.

      that is, when, before the Khazars and Muslims, they were sun worshipers
  • alexandr00070
    alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 04
    +1
    Quote: Nagaibak
    You tell the Circassians hehe .. they will quickly explain to you about their "artificiality".

    is it really hard to work with keys

    The ethnonym Cherkess and the toponym Cherkessia, starting from the 5th century, has been used to refer to the Adyghe people and their country in the North Caucasus, replacing the previous ethnonymic nomenclature - Kerkets, Zikhi, Dzhiki, Kashagi, Kasa, Kasogi, etc. [5]. The ethnonym Cherkess became commonly used in European and Russian sources of the 5th-XNUMXth centuries, although it is worth noting that all Circassians (Adygs) invariably called themselves Adyge [XNUMX]. As a result of the consequences of the Russian-Caucasian war, administrative transformations of the tsarist government in the XNUMXth century, and later of the Soviet government, the Adyghe (Circassian) people in their homeland were divided into many enclaves, most of which were administratively territorially united into four massifs, called shapsugs , Kabardins, Adyghe and Circassians [XNUMX].

    that is, Circassians were called not almost everyone in the Caucasus, but they needed to understand it
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 47
      -1
      alexandr00070 "that is, not everyone in the Caucasus was called the Circassians, but they needed to understand it"
      That is, as I understand it, Cherkasy Cossacks and Circassians are not the same thing. And thank God. You then wanted to prove something to me with your posts? I do not understand your impulse. Wrote about the Circassians perfectly I agree with you. They wrote about Don, Novocherkassk, about Cossacks, thanks, I knew that. If you write to me that both those and other representatives of the Tartar people do not agree.
      1. Horde
        Horde April 3 2013 13: 03
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        If you write to me that both those and other representatives of the Tartar people do not agree.


        your co-productive point of view, when political cards of the 17-19th centuries are rejected, speaks of your NARROUGH CIRCUMSTANCES, not your ability to THINK YOURSELF, inability to perceive your opponent’s argumentation, as well as EXAMPLES OF SCAMING polemics (look for yourself), you are a typical obscurity.
        I give you a link to the article by A.M. Tyurin. "Integration of the Scythian archaeological culture into
        New Chronology of Fomenko and Nosovsky "scientific article can understand that.

        http://new.chronologia.org/volume6/tur_int.html
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 3 2013 14: 13
          0
          Horde "your counterproductive point of view, when the political maps of the 17-19th centuries are rejected, speaks of your NARROW LOOK, not the ability to THINK FOR INDEPENDENTLY, the inability to perceive the opponent's argumentation, as well as EXAMPLES of fraudulent conduct of polemics (look for yourself), you are a typical Istorikobes.
          I give you a link to the article by A.M. Tyurin. "Integration of the Scythian archaeological culture into
          New Chronology of Fomenko and Nosovsky "scientific article can understand what."
          Thank you very much for your advice! It’s easy to write how you disagree in obscurantism. To get started, try to master a regular school history course. And then fantasize and disprove health. And you know how to hang labels. I was convinced of this.
          Horde "your NARROW LOOK"
          Thank!!! Where to me to you. You are making all the discoveries in the pictures.
          By the way, I can advise you to read Miller, take a look at the wiki has his description of the Siberian peoples. You can download it. True, there seem to be no pictures there, so that you may not be interested.
          1. Horde
            Horde April 3 2013 15: 18
            -1
            How do you write dissent in obscurantism easily


            so you are not "not agreeing", but refusing to see, I have never done such turns with anyone. On what grounds do you defamate historical documents?
          2. alexandr00070
            alexandr00070 April 5 2013 00: 28
            0
            Quote: Nagaibak
            By the way, I can advise you to read Miller, take a look at the wiki has his description of the Siberian peoples. You can download it. True, there seem to be no pictures there, so that you may not be interested.

            Well, all the previous comments are down the drain, the conversation is about the fact that the whole story after Peter (and your favorite history textbook) was written by Miller and his followers i.e. fitted, and what did not match was destroyed, and he read Miller, not better you are to us
            although there are such books in my library, who, if not a German, will notice the traces of Great Tartary in Siberia
      2. alexandr00070
        alexandr00070 April 5 2013 00: 19
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        That is, as I understand it, Cherkasy Cossacks and Circassians are not the same thing. And thank God.

        Yes, indeed, well, at least I wasted my time here
  • ShturmKGB
    ShturmKGB April 1 2013 18: 18
    +2
    Tartaria Lesser is the Lesser Nogai Horde ...
  • alexandr00070
    alexandr00070 April 3 2013 01: 59
    +1
    Quote: Nagaibak
    Again you Horde confused Cherkasy with Cherkessia, Gogol with Hegel, Babel with Bebel ....

    And you see, you raise your credibility by criticizing the Horde, but in essence the topic, anything we can reasoned
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak April 3 2013 07: 34
      0
      alexandr00070 "And I see you raise your authority on criticism of the Horde, but in fact the topic, we can do something reasoned"
      You I see very observant. What authority can be earned by proving that there was no Tartaria? And where does the Horde come from?
      1. Horde
        Horde April 3 2013 13: 34
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        proving that there was no Tartaria

        do not confuse warm and wet, you are not able to prove ANYTHING your horse "since I do not believe in this, it cannot correspond to reality"
      2. alexandr00070
        alexandr00070 April 5 2013 00: 30
        0
        Quote: Nagaibak
        You I see very observant. What authority can be earned by proving that there was no Tartaria?

        So prove, reasonably, and not just XE XE XE
  • Nagaibak
    Nagaibak April 1 2013 18: 05
    +1
    Horde "The so-called Crimean Khanate for some reason is not displayed in any old map, instead of Tartary Malaya."
    Correctly, since it is not displayed on super cards, it means there was no hehe ...
    Hmm ... sorry for the Crimean Tatars, you called them Tartars and even small ... ay-yy Horde ... not good ...
  • kroog
    kroog April 2 2013 23: 51
    0
    please take a dictionary of any of the common languages ​​- English, German, Italian, French - and see what the Circassians are called there - that’s exactly what it says - circasian or variants on this subject. I think the question is closed?
    And Cherkasy and its surnames derived from it are essentially tracing paper from the Latinized name of Cherkessia
    1. alexandr00070
      alexandr00070 April 3 2013 02: 54
      +1
      Quote: kroog
      please take a dictionary of any of the common languages ​​- English, German, Italian, French - and see what the Circassians are called there - that’s exactly what it says - circasian or variants on this subject. I think the question is closed?
      And Cherkasy and its surnames derived from it are essentially tracing paper from the Latinized name of Cherkessia

      In something you are right, but not in how it is written, but in how it is translated

      Circassians are people. It consists of two principles: “Circ” - circle and “assian / assassin” - professional warrior. That is, if we look at the drawing of the village of the XVI century, drawn by Jean Baptiste Tavernier in 1678 - the first thing that catches your eye is the appearance of a round settlement similar to a fortification and a military unit guarding the entrance to the temple, led by an armed horseman. The overwhelming majority of people who have seen such species and came to the conclusion that they face an extremely warlike people, leading a military way of life. Hence the entrenched name "Circassian" (Circassian). The round shape of the villages of the Circassians remained for thousands of years.

      if you remember the Cossacks, too, professional warriors and their smokers also stood around, so the question is not closed and how do you explain the Circassians in the Caucasus and the Circassians in the Don
  • Horde
    Horde April 1 2013 12: 03
    0
    Quote: Horde
    Its shores belonged to Turkey, its vassal -
    Crimean Khanate and Circassia.


    CHERKESS-artificially created people appeared
    after the end of the so-called "Russian-Circassian" war
    ended in 1864 Romanovskaya Russia finished off
    remnants of EMPIRE all over the world. In all OLD
    there are NO CIRCESSIONS on the maps, BUT THERE IS CHERKASSIA
    -Russian state where religion was something in between
    between Islam, Molokans, Manichaeans, state
    languages ​​Russian, Tatar.
    Here is the late map of the second half of 18 in on the map clearly
    The names CHERKASSIA are presented.

    Map of Tartaria Guillaume de Lily (1688-1768), French
    astronomer and cartographer, member of the Paris Academy of Sciences (1702).
    He also published the world atlas (1700-1714). B 1725-47
    worked in Russia, was an academician and the first
    Director of Academic Astronomical
    observatory, since 1747 - foreign honorary
    member of the Petersburg

    the map of 1820 is rather small, but it’s clear
    what's between the Black and Caspian Seas Cherkasy


    Its shores belonged to Turkey, its vassal - the Crimean Khanate and Circassia.


    For some reason, the so-called Crimean Khanate is not displayed on any ancient map, Instead of it Tartaria Malaya.
  • shurup
    shurup April 1 2013 12: 24
    +1
    Victory in the Northern War became possible thanks to peace with Turkey. For this, it was not a pity to tear off Azov.
    The window to Asia at that time was Voronezh.
    Just this very day, this city was awarded the visit of the Ambassador of Iran.
    1. Horde
      Horde April 1 2013 12: 57
      -1
      Quote: shurup
      Victory in the Northern War became possible thanks to peace with Turkey. For this, it was not a pity to tear off Azov.


      The Nishtad Treaty assigned Russia part of Finland to Karelia, Estonia, Livonia, but as a result of the failed Prut campaign by 1728, Petersburg, as the CITY practically ceased to exist, the capital was moved to Moscow.
      The successful Persian campaign was LEVELED and after the death of Peter all the conquered lands along the Caspian Sea again went to Persia.
      1. shurup
        shurup April 1 2013 14: 07
        +1
        Petersburg to Catherine the Second was a miserable sight not of the European capital, but of a temporary field-camp rate, weakly fortified from the sea and land. Corruption finally fed up Peter's inheritance with a decline in finances and depopulation. Forest and hemp were still the main export items, the proceeds of which went to luxury goods for the elite. The scale of the flight of draft people outside the country was staggering.
        It reminds me of something. But the period of decline gave way to prosperity.
        1. Horde
          Horde April 1 2013 16: 14
          0
          Quote: shurup
          It reminds me of something.


          Well, what does it resemble? Peter's REFORMS is a terrible disaster for the Russian people, for the people Peter was ANTICHRIST. Peter strained the forces of the people absolutely idle. Peter built the city of port Petersburg ?, but all the goods to Europe, as they went through Arkhangelsk before, and after the construction of St. Petersburg continued to go through Arkhangelsk. And why? Because the port city of Petersburg is FICTION, the Kotlin fairway, the island-mouth of the Neva had such a depth that ships with a draft of more than 2 meters could not get through, in addition, the FARVATER WAS A LINE AND A SINVIOUS. So all the funny pictures of Petersburg with large ships at the quays not true.
          -Prut hike -proven.
          - Persian campaign. Soon all the conquests of the Caspian lands were again lost to Russia.
          -The glorious Poltava Victoria in the light of some new facts looks very strange. From the side of Peter, both Russians and Swedes and Germans fought, and from the side of Karl 12 Swedes, Germans and Cossacks. In Russia, they hated Peter.
          Peter's reforms are rather a CONSCIOUS DESTRUCTION of the Russian people.
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak April 1 2013 18: 02
            0
            Horde "So all the funny pictures of St. Petersburg with large ships at the berths do not correspond to reality."
            Do your cards with tartaria correspond? Hehe..interestingly you distribute the correspondence ...

            Horde "- Glorious Poltava Victoria in the light of some new facts looks very strange. From Peter's side, both Russians and Swedes and Germans fought, and from Karl's side there were 12 Swedes, Germans and Cossacks."
            I will conclude for you hehe ... Karl 12 was not the Swedish king, but the Tartar prince. Peter 1 fought with him and it was our civil war hehe ... And the Swedes are not Swedes, but Tartars freedom-loving. Something like this...
            1. Horde
              Horde April 1 2013 19: 37
              0
              Do your cards with tartaria correspond?


              Why don’t you like the cards?
            2. Horde
              Horde April 1 2013 19: 50
              0
              Quote: Nagaibak
              I will conclude for you


              not overstrained SUCH CONCLUSION made? this can already be called the origin of the first independent thought, otherwise all textbooks, textbooks, study, study laughing
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak April 1 2013 20: 45
                0
                Horde "didn’t overstrain THIS CONCLUSION? It can already be called the birth of the first independent thought, otherwise all textbooks, textbooks, study, study"
                It’s not necessary to draw such conclusions as you do. By the way, I don’t work in my office. I have a traveling nature of work.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak April 1 2013 17: 55
        +1
        Horde "but as a result of the disastrous Prut campaign by 1728 St. Petersburg, as a CITY, practically ceased to exist, the capital was moved to Moscow."
        The Prut campaign was in 1711, how to correlate what you indicated? Like, did Peter cease to exist by 1728? A very interesting thought ...
        1. Horde
          Horde April 1 2013 19: 41
          -1
          The Prut campaign was in 1711, how to correlate what you indicated? Like, did Peter cease to exist by 1728? A very interesting thought ...


          in 1711 it was also not a city, Petersburg, as the city (inhabited, inhabited area with buildings and population) ceased to exist after the death of Peter 1725
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak April 1 2013 20: 47
            0
            The Horde "ceased to exist after the death of Peter in 1725.
            Well, stopped so stopped. We pretend that he is not. Hehe ... maybe it will become easier for you.
            1. Horde
              Horde April 1 2013 21: 13
              0
              Quote: Nagaibak
              Well, stopped so stopped. We pretend that he is not. Hehe ... maybe it will become easier for you.


              you Nagaybak is not only a boor, but also an ignorant person, let's do this, you do not know me, I do not know you.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak April 2 2013 06: 28
                +1
                Horde "you Nagaybak are not only a boor, but also an ignorant person, come on, you don't know me, I don't know you."
                Do not be offended by the Horde. You were the first to be rude and poke. On the contrary, I tried to answer with restraint. You re-read our posts, then be offended.
  • Black
    Black April 1 2013 14: 47
    +3
    Quote: shurup
    It reminds me of something. But the decline period gave way to prosperity

    The parallels are obvious. The history of Russia abounds in greatness and incomparable falls. But great spirit and power have always won.
  • amp
    amp April 1 2013 17: 42
    +1
    It would be much more reasonable to develop expansion not towards Sweden, but south towards Turkey and (or) towards Iran.
    Turkey was already very weak then. Plus, the Crimean Horde was a serious threat to the southern borders. When Peter took Azov and built a fleet, he untied his hands to capture not only the Crimea, but also the defeat of the entire Turkish empire. Turkey did not have a sensible fleet, the fleet of Peter would easily defeat Turkish ships. He would have easily landed an assault in Istanbul and would have taken control of the straits; earlier, someone in Europe would have had a chance to pickle. It was Catherine 2 who appointed all kinds of stupid favorites to command, and as a result, the army stomped on the spot, Peter was not like that.
    And so he, having taken Azov and built a fleet, abruptly changes the direction of his policy towards the Baltic, where the Azov fleet is generally useless. It is not clear why. In addition, Sweden, unlike Turkey, was a strong maritime power.

    Iran is also a promising area. The Persian Empire was also very weak - stick and fall apart. In fact, Peter without any problems reached Baku in a couple of years. What can I say, even if Stepan Razin into a ram’s horn with his pair of thousands of Cossack Persians turned into a ram’s horn.

    In general, in 5-10 years, Peter could capture Crimea, the Bosporus of the Dardanelles, Romania with Bulgaria, and then after another 5 years he would easily have gone through Iran to the Persian Gate. And there, and to India at hand. Though by sea, even by land.
    Why did he climb into this cold Baltic ??
    1. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak April 1 2013 18: 29
      0
      amp
      "It would be much wiser to develop expansion not towards Sweden, but south towards Turkey and / or towards Iran."
      Peter was interested in the western direction, since he took technology from there figuratively speaking. And trade with developed countries yielded greater benefits to Russia than with the listed countries. Strange as it may seem, from the Baltic to Europe.
      amp "Turkey did not have a sensible fleet, Peter's fleet could easily have destroyed the Turkish ships"
      The controversial thesis we needed the whole 18th century, that would win the Black Sea from Turkey.
      amp "where the Azov fleet is generally useless"
      A very loud name for what was built in Azov.
      amp "It was Catherine 2 who appointed any stupid favorites to command, and as a result, the army was marking time"
      More than a strange statement. The armies that won were commanded by the Rumyantsev and Suvorov. The favorites, on the other hand, carried out a more general command and administrative leadership in the occupied lands. And they coped well with this role. Evidence of this founded city in the Black Sea region and in eastern Ukraine.
      1. Horde
        Horde April 1 2013 20: 42
        -2
        Peter was interested in the western direction, since he took technology from there figuratively speaking. Yes, and trade with developed countries yielded greater benefits to Russia than with these countries


        retelling of textbooks? Yes, we know this point of view. And what did the trade with "developed countries" give Petrovskaya Russia, here is an excerpt from TI:
        Cloth, fabrics, linens, haberdashery goods, tea, coffee, spices were imported from Russia to England. For the Russian fleet, ships were purchased in England. From the time of the Great Embassy, ​​various masters and specialists began to leave Russia for Russia, playing a significant role in the establishment and development of the necessary crafts and industries, primarily in the creation of the Russian fleet. Young Russian nobles studied naval affairs and navigation in England. Despite political disagreements, interest in Russia in England increased, admiration of Peter I as the creator of a great sea power grew, both countries could no longer ignore each other, as was often the case in the XNUMXth century. Relations between them have become closer and more multifaceted.


        it turns out that Russia in England did NOT need ANYTHING to do all this on its own, but England didn’t do it for England, almost all components for the fleet were purchased in Russia. By the end of Peter’s reign, export over import prevailed 2 times. England paid Russia gold, which was robbed all over the world, but it was apparently so wrought from the time of Peter the Great to ours that neither Russia nor the people of Russia used this gold. As far as foreign experts are concerned, it would be better not to have them.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 2 2013 06: 58
          0
          Horde] retelling of textbooks? Yes, we know this point of view.
          Yes, it is noticeable that you drove Russia's foreign trade into Arkhangelsk, saying that Peter is a fiction. Forgetting the conquered Riga and Revel.
          The Horde "it turns out that Russia in England did not need ANYTHING, they produced IT on their own, but England, Russia was, oh, how necessary, almost all the components for the fleet were purchased in Russia. By the end of Peter's reign, exports over imports prevailed 2 times."
          This is from Vika. "In exchange for Russian raw materials, Europe could supply us with products of its manufacturing industry. But, patronizing his factories and plants, Peter greatly reduced the import of foreign manufactured goods into Russia with almost prohibitive duties, allowing only those that were not produced in Russia at all. or only those that were needed by Russian factories and plants (this was the policy of protectionism) "
          Having imported technology, Peter sought the production of goods necessary for the country.
          . "By the end of Peter's reign, exports over imports exceeded 2 times."
          Actually this is not a flaw. For any country. Russia did not need intermediaries to communicate with Europe. The Baltic was ours. Having conquered the Black Sea coast, the Russian rulers continued to look longingly at the Black Sea straits right up to the First World War.
          Horde "As for foreign specialists, it would be better if they did not exist."
          Foreigners, for example, in the Navy were an absolute majority before the end of the Northern War and long after it. Especially noticeable among ship captains. Despite all the efforts of Peter, it was tight with staff.
          And what did army specialists or engineers not please you with? There were few or almost none of their own.
          1. Horde
            Horde April 2 2013 11: 06
            0
            Forgetting the conquered Riga and Revel


            Well, you forgot who controlled the Baltic Sea. The Swedes did not let any merchant ships go to the shores controlled by Peter until the end of the Northern War of 1721. This is understandable, the war is going on. After the war, of course, some of the goods were redirected through Riga and Revel, but such a port as Petersburg could not make a big trade turnover for the reasons for which I indicated above. Arkhangelsk, as a large port of Russia, remained for a long time in the lead.
            I found an amazing fact about which I didn’t even know, according to the conditions of the Nishtad peace, Russia did not WIN the lands around the Baltic Sea, but I BUY from Sweden for 2 mil. Johanstalerov in gold, which fell a HEAVY DUTY on the Russian economy. Peter is really the PLAGUE of Russia.
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak April 2 2013 11: 48
              0
              Horde "I found an amazing fact about which I did not even know it turns out under the terms of the Nystad peace, Russia did not recapture the land around the Baltic Sea, but BOUGHT from Sweden for 2 mil. Johannesters in gold, which fell as a HEAVY LOAD on the economy of Russia. Peter is really the PLAGUE of Russia."
              The fact that Peter paid the Swedes in general is a well-known fact that the Swedes would no longer claim to be conquered.
              Thanks to Peter, we have Peter. Like it or not. Thanks to Stalin, the enclave in Kaliningrad, and Vyborg. If Peter hadn’t lived quietly and quietly, the British would have waged opium wars on our territory. That's all. The history of China is direct evidence of this. And they dropped the colonial yoke thanks to us. And we did not become a colony, thanks to Peter.
              1. Horde
                Horde April 2 2013 17: 29
                0
                Thanks to Peter, we have Peter


                -Peter imposed rampant drunkenness among the nobility, binges were for several DAYS, many died from this
                -Peter forced the people to smoke tobacco, NO DAMAGE for all the time, but then of course there are MILLIONS of lives.
                -Peter changed the RUSSIAN LIFESTYLE by introducing the Gregorian calendar, introducing into the Russian circulation LATINISMS and other foreign words, which is very similar to today, it just makes you sick of Americanisms, I can imagine how our ancestors spat at that time.
                -the introduction of non-Russian costume, a departure from the traditions of RUSSIAN ARCHITECTURE (TEREMA) WAS REPLACED BY THE FOREIGN WESTERN AND GREEK ARCHITECTURE STYLES.
                -punishment of your own son - UNAUGHTIBLE HARDNESS.
                -system of education, which did not teach ANYTHING, but only stupid.
                -physical destruction of the Russian people through all sorts of adventurous enterprises such as the Prut campaign.
                -Significant time Peter lived abroad because he did not like Russia.
                -As a result of the lengthy Northern War, it turned out that the WORLD was NOT CONQUERED, as it should be in an honest heroic war, but PURCHASED for gold. PETER WAS EVEN NOT EVEN A SILVER.
                - the impostor appropriated the title of EMPEROR over which they openly laughed in the west.
                -Peter finally ENROSED the people under Peter, the peasants lost ALL RIGHTS and finally turned into slaves.
                -And the last, if any of our leader, ruler is openly praised in the West, then it is UNCLEAFLY either a thief, or an impostor, like Peter the tyrant, THE DESTRIANTER of the Russian people.
                1. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak April 2 2013 18: 31
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                  Horde "Peter the tyrant, the DESTROYER of the Russian people." It is in your extremely subjective opinion that you do not need to mold labels or minds or imaginations.

                  Horde-Significant time Peter lived abroad because he did not like Russia.
                  Here you have gone too far even for your views a very bold statement. He probably emigrated to Tartaria hehe.
          2. Horde
            Horde April 2 2013 11: 38
            -2
            Despite all the efforts of Peter, it was tight with staff.


            You Nagaybak just RETROGRAD we write, we write we open NEW HISTORY FACTS, and Nagaybak takes a history textbook for everything - "... but it was like this"
            The Russian Tsar Peter, who suddenly suddenly became a EUROPEAN of one of his "reforms" - built the education system in this way, the Russian nobles could not get a normal education, because in Europe they studied without knowing languages, and in Russia the invited professors did not speak Russian and did not want to teach and this practice continued until the middle of the 19th century, when NEMCHURA'S FORCE in the Academy of Sciences and in other structures was a HUGE restraining factor in the development of Russian society.

            Instead of Russian raw materials, Europe could supply us with products of its manufacturing industry.


            What exactly was Europe selling to Russia?
            1. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak April 2 2013 18: 27
              -1
              Horde "You Nagaybak are just RETROGRAD we write, we write we open NEW FACTS OF HISTORY, and Nagaybak takes a history textbook for everything -" ... but it was like this "
              It’s better to open a textbook than how you stare at old cards and, based on lexical errors, suck facts from your finger.
              You probably read a lot about the education introduced by Peter, you know that it did not give anything. Can the facts bring what verbiage to do?
              1. Horde
                Horde April 2 2013 22: 50
                0
                Quote: Nagaibak
                staring at old cards and based on lexical errors


                what are "lexical errors?" nuka show

                You probably read a lot about education introduced by Peter,


                about education, I expressed my thoughts on the forum in the second part of the article tongue
  • xan
    xan April 1 2013 20: 18
    0
    The main failure of Peter - Prut campaign. But the most offensive is that Peter lost faith in the outcome of the Battle of Prut, when it had not yet been lost, and that half a century later, in even worse proportions of forces, the Catherine’s warriors drove the Turks to their mother.
    Peter did not believe in the Russian soldier as Rumyantsev and Suvorov believed in him. Or maybe just over time the mentality of the winners began to affect.
  • washi
    washi April 2 2013 22: 16
    +1
    Peter is a bad person. While he conquered the impoverished Baltic states, the Crimeans carried out several raids. He is probably really the first who fought for the interests of others.
  • Horde
    Horde April 3 2013 02: 32
    0
    Quote: kroog
    what Circassians are called there - that’s exactly what it says - circasian or variants on this subject. I think the question is closed?


    Well, let’s say here is a Russian map of the middle of the 18th century, but only again Cherkasy, what kind of failure in your logic? Cherkasy lived on the Dnieper, and in Ukraine there is the city of Cherkasy, on the Don city of Novocherkassk, according to your logic, is this all Circassian territories? Maybe we will not close the topic so quickly?
    1. kroog
      kroog April 3 2013 02: 45
      0
      if you don’t know, on the side of Russia, Circassians also took part in the wars, many of them together with the Cossacks participated in the conquests in the south. Subsequently, some of them were assimilated with Cossacks and Russians. The princely clan Cherkasov, Urusov - from the Circassians. Got a connection? Cherkasov - Circassian
      1. Horde
        Horde April 3 2013 03: 00
        0
        if you don’t know, Circassians took part in the wars on the side of Russia, many of them together with the Cossacks participated in the conquests in the south


        when you say Cherkess, you mean highlanders - Caucasian tribes, so I have a question and where did the highlanders come from in Ukraine? It may still be logical to assume that Cherkasy is Cossacks, for which old cards say
        this one is better seen.
  • kroog
    kroog April 3 2013 02: 55
    0
    Quote: alexandr00070

    damn the other way around, I repeat

    The ethnonym Cherkess and the toponym Cherkessia, starting from the 5th century, has been used to refer to the Adyghe people and their country in the North Caucasus, replacing the previous ethnonymic nomenclature - Kerkets, Zikhi, Dzhiki, Kashagi, Kasa, Kasogi, etc. [5]. The ethnonym Cherkess became commonly used in European and Russian sources of the 5th-XNUMXth centuries, although it is worth noting that all Circassians (Adygs) invariably called themselves Adyge [XNUMX]. As a result of the consequences of the Russian-Caucasian war, administrative transformations of the tsarist government in the XNUMXth century, and later of the Soviet government, the Adyghe (Circassian) people in their homeland were divided into many enclaves, most of which were administratively territorially united into four massifs, called shapsugs , Kabardins, Adyghe and Circassians [XNUMX].
    Circassians are people. It consists of two principles: “Circ” - circle and “assian / assassin” - professional warrior. That is, if we look at the drawing of the village of the XVI century, drawn by Jean Baptiste Tavernier in 1678 - the first thing that catches your eye is the appearance of a round settlement similar to a fortification and a military unit guarding the entrance to the temple, led by an armed horseman. The overwhelming majority of people who have seen such species and came to the conclusion that they face an extremely warlike people, leading a military way of life. Hence the entrenched name "Circassian" (Circassian). The round shape of the villages of the Circassians remained for thousands of years.


    I, apparently, put it wrong - write down with Shapsug, Circassian, etc. it was safer for the Circassians, so as not to be subjected to reprisals after the Caucasian war - the Black Sea part of the Adyghe people did not take an active part in this war, therefore, in the census, many tried to enroll under a different nationality, although, in fact, it was one people

    but I did not know the interpretation of the word circasian, thank you for enlightening us. knew that it has Latin roots, and subsequently entered many languages ​​of the world
    1. alexandr00070
      alexandr00070 April 3 2013 03: 29
      +1
      Quote: kroog
      I, apparently, put it wrong - write down with Shapsug, Circassian, etc. it was safer for the Circassians, so as not to be subjected to reprisals after the Caucasian war - the Black Sea part of the Adyghe people did not take an active part in this war, therefore, in the census, many tried to enroll under a different nationality, although, in fact, it was one people

      what a Caucasian war ..................... the appearance of a round settlement similar to a fortification and military unit guarding the entrance to the temple, led by an armed horseman. The overwhelming majority of people who have seen such species and came to the conclusion that they face an extremely warlike people, leading a military way of life. Hence the entrenched name "Circassian" (Circassian). The round shape of the villages of the Circassians remained for thousands of years. Recent studies of the RAS expedition on the Kabardinsky ridge showed that the circular form of settlement existed as early as the XNUMXth century BC. e. and was not accidental. The very first excavations at the site of these settlements showed that the round village imitated the disk of the sun located on the ground, originally called a daisy, and the houses with Circassians living in such houses symbolized its rays. The important thing is how the Circassians see themselves, being in a close interweaving of intrageneric and intercultural relations. The Adyge self-name is “adyghe” - (A-arm or ray, dygye - sun or ray of sun). Adygs (Circassians) perceived the rays of the sun behind his hands with which it strokes nature and it blooms in response. In the round village, every Adyghe (Circassian) house is a ray of sunshine coming from the center of the village, where the Temple of the Sun with a guarded entrance was located.

      BC there were settlements.

      Quote: kroog
      but I did not know the interpretation of the word circasian, thank you for enlightening us.
      knew that it has Latin roots, and subsequently entered many languages ​​of the world


      from the same opera, we simply reap the fruits of the fashion for European written sources and therefore we translate from Latin, and they translate (what I see then I sing), so we get a "circle of professional warriors"