Military Review

Test pilot told what will change when the Russian aerobatic team will switch to new types of aircraft

102

“Personally, I think that the combat vehicle looks more beautiful. All aerobatics is the same “circus” for the viewer. Everyone thinks that if you fly in combat vehicles, then this is cool, ”said Honored Test Pilot, Hero of Russia, Colonel Igor Malikov, commenting on the news of the upcoming change of airplanes on which Russian aerobatic teams fly.


Russian aerobatic teams will transfer to Su-35 and Yak-130 aircraft, commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force Viktor Bondarev said. “The decision on this issue has been made. We understand perfectly well that you cannot win authority on the same aircraft. In any case, we will strive to transplant our pilots to Yak-130-type training aircraft and Su-35, ”said Bondarev.

According to him, the aerobatic team on the Yak-130 will appear as soon as planes of this type are built in a lightweight version.

“When the corresponding planes come from industry, we are ready to train aerobatics pilots there,” said Bondarev, ITAR-TASS reports.

He explained that the Russian Air Force ordered Yak-130 aircraft for the aerobatic team, which "will be slightly modified and different from the serial ones."

Newspaper VIEW asked Honored Test Pilot, Hero of Russia, Colonel Igor Malikov, what changes will result from changing the type of aircraft.

According to Colonel Igor Malikov, the change of planes will not affect the flight program.

VIEW: Igor Ivanovich, what will change after the pilots will change to other planes?

Igor Malikov: Absolutely nothing will change. Personally, I think that the combat vehicle looks more beautiful. All aerobatics is the same “circus” for the viewer. Everyone thinks that if you fly in combat vehicles, then that's cool. And on the training - so, "apprentice."

The point is beauty. There are aerobatic teams that work on light aircraft, there are those who work on light combat or serious combat aircraft.

VIEW: How difficult will it be for pilots to re-prepare a program on new aircraft?

IM: After the Su-27 fly on the Yak-130 is much easier. Training aircraft easier to fly.

VIEW: What exactly?

IM: Firstly, it is easier. Easier to pilot, in all other systems. This is not a combat vehicle. Fighting machine has a lot. And mass is inertia, it requires to consider all these things.

“Piloting” on KamAZ is not at all the same as on “Zhiguli”. A machine that is heavier, more inert. Easier, of course, on "Zhiguli".

VIEW: Do you agree with the assessment of the commander-in-chief of pilots of Russian aerobatic teams as the best?

IM: Of course, our pilots are the best. All countries, except Americans, are not piloting combat aircraft. And ours - in combat, which, as I said, is more difficult to manage.

VIEW: Change the type of aircraft somehow affect the program itself? Will something new appear?

IM: I do not think. Everything is already known in advance. All figures are standard.
Author:
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102 comments
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  1. StrateG
    StrateG 30 March 2013 08: 10
    0
    Interestingly, how would everyone be surprised if our pilots piloted the PAK FU and performed all the figures on it bully
    1. svp67
      svp67 30 March 2013 08: 38
      0
      Give me time, and I think not very much and they will find their place in the aerobatic teams ...
      1. sergius60
        sergius60 30 March 2013 09: 20
        -3
        According to the rearmament plan, until 2020 there should be 60 units For a showy "figure", let's say we allocate 6 units, 10 percent combat strengthand. 6 planes = 600 million bucks = the price of the Mistral. Maybe before you post, sometimes you need to include "mzsh"? Or how? fool
        1. queen
          queen 30 March 2013 10: 56
          +6
          Quote: sergius60
          Suppose we allocate 6 units, 10 percent of the combat personnel. 6 aircraft

          Do you think that aerobatic teams do not have combat personnel? drinks
          1. angarchanin
            angarchanin 30 March 2013 18: 44
            0
            regin, did the right accent! Among other things, without going into the little things, I want to clarify: in combat units, pilots mainly work out piloting techniques and combat training on main-type aircraft. Further improvement of combat training is in the centers for combat use (Lipetsk, Ryazan, etc.). Who however instructors of these centers teach combatant pilots elements of combat maneuvering and air combat ?! On what planes then should instructors of the centers improve their skills ?! The second one. Was our industry so successful in exporting planes if there weren’t for those very representative flights ?! And the last one. I will not tell you a secret that products exported in their performance characteristics are weaker (worse) than domestic ones.
            1. queen
              queen 30 March 2013 22: 11
              +1
              Quote: angarchanin
              I will not tell you a secret that products exported in their performance characteristics are weaker (worse) than domestic ones

              I don’t agree, the glider, the engines of the fuel systems (vaf) are all ours ours are inferior to them except the SU-35 and MiG-35, which is precisely what we have cut off. (((((
          2. sergius60
            sergius60 31 March 2013 17: 04
            -2
            Dear regin, "being" in the combat staff and engaging in quite specific flight training, which is certainly necessary, is one thing. And training for combat use is another matter. From the men, the stump is clear, seven sweats descend on aerobatic training. But what does this have to do with practicing interceptions and strikes against ground targets here? An airplane without a "flyer", a stupid piece of iron. Do not you mind? This means that 6 COMBAT AIRCRAFT are automatically withdrawn from the COMBAT STAFF. Do you mind? I will not grovel about the cost of a flying hour and the consumption of motor resources. No.
            1. queen
              queen 31 March 2013 19: 35
              +1
              Quote: sergius60
              So, from the BATTLE STRUCTURE, 6 BATTLE PLANES are displayed on the machine

              Where are they taken? The usual change of location. After completing the assigned "task" they will return)))))
              Quote: sergius60
              I’m not going to crucify about the cost of summer hours and the consumption of motor resources

              Are you better off standing on the ground?))) And the repair crews will know their job even better drinks
    2. Russian
      Russian 30 March 2013 09: 01
      +5
      The primary task is for the machine to enter the troops, and after saturating the Air Force, it is possible to show feints at exhibitions, otherwise the bootloader would not be left without boots, otherwise we like to drive all the most advanced for export, and in our troops, old equipment to upgrade. I did not hear something, for example, for the Americans to create aerobatic teams on the f-22.
      1. Wedmak
        Wedmak 30 March 2013 09: 11
        +4
        I did not hear something, for example, for the Americans to create aerobatic teams on the f-22.

        He is golden, this plane. Still a secret so far. What are somersaults ...
      2. sergius60
        sergius60 30 March 2013 09: 30
        0
        Keep!
      3. queen
        queen 30 March 2013 11: 02
        +3
        Quote: р_у_с_с_к_и_й
        so that the Americans on f-22 aerobatic teams create

        For them, Hollywood did everything)))))
    3. sergius60
      sergius60 30 March 2013 09: 09
      +1
      Not greasy, on a plane for 100 evergreen lemons - figure in public. Is the borzometer out of scale? good
      1. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 30 March 2013 09: 43
        0
        With the powerful economy of the USSR, one could afford to defend the honor of the country on combat aircraft. Under the modern government, there was no money to sell the honor of the country (and what an honor it is when there is nothing to keep doctors in the villages), it’s amazing how the eternal lights around the country have not been extinguished.
        1. 755962
          755962 30 March 2013 10: 56
          +3
          And what's the difference on combat or training to perform VP figures ?! It’s clear that on a combat vehicle it’s more interesting, more beautiful (to whom) reveals its maneuverability, combat capabilities, etc., etc. My personal opinion pros can "twist" on this and on this ..
          All aerobatics are the same "circus" for the viewer.


          Keyword)))
          The opinion of the Master is interesting! Sergey vaf your way out!
          1. VAF
            VAF 30 March 2013 14: 06
            +4
            Quote: 755962
            Sergey vaf your way out!



            Zhenya, hello! +! drinks


            Malikov said everything is true and ... correct! good And at the same time I ask you to take into account that this is a test pilot, not a pilot-pilot, and even more so a "group"!

            Already repeatedly wrote that if they only changed aircraft, i.e. Russia with L-39 was transplanted to the Yak-130, then this is normal, but the creation of another .. out of the blue ??? The question is ... what for ???

            I remember at the beginning of the year "Bondarev's regular statements" ... "Knights and Swifts will remain aerobatic teams, 24 demonstration performances are planned for this year ..... 2013 has come ........ who saw Swifts ... right ..... everything is as "planned" !!!

            I feel under this "hat" that they will offer the Knights to transfer to the Yak-130 ... I feel my heart, looking at this la-la from the big bosses, and the Cuban people are talking about the same ... so ... so. .. wait, sir! soldier
            1. queen
              queen 30 March 2013 15: 14
              +1
              Quote: vaf
              what the Knights will offer to transfer to the Yak-130

              Greetings Sergey, How is your weather? It seems to me like a complete negative ... it's like transferring from Meserati to fiat 500 ... Will the Knights survive?
              1. VAF
                VAF 30 March 2013 16: 01
                +7
                Quote: regin
                Greetings Sergey, How is your weather?


                Hi Volodya! I answer .....



                Quote: regin
                I think this is a complete negative


                Well, why ... the Russian people, for any negative ... always have their POSITIVE ... therefore we ... are invincible drinks



                Quote: regin
                it's like with Meserati transfer to fiat 500.


                This is somewhere ..that so then..will be lol



                Quote: regin
                Will the Knights survive?


                Let's see ... so far only .. "touchstones" begin to "fly" .... with Swifts the same with the same .. started, but .. anxious in my soul and in my thoughts recourse

                1. Ascetic
                  Ascetic 30 March 2013 19: 48
                  +4
                  Quote: vaf
                  Well, why ... the Russian people, for any negative ... always have their POSITIVE ... therefore we ... are invincible


                  Greetings, Sergey!
            2. Ustin
              Ustin April 1 2013 17: 27
              +1
              Hello Veteran! The knights are likely to switch to Sushki, the issue is almost resolved. How many Su 30 SM and Su35 will be in the group is not yet clear here, and this is the whole intrigue, but I think by the end of the year we will know everything.
    4. queen
      queen 30 March 2013 11: 00
      +2
      Quote: StrateG
      piloted PAK FU and performed on it all the figures

      It won’t be soon, the plane needs to fully take wing, the testers have a lot of work, the SU-27 didn’t immediately become like that drinks
  2. krokodil25
    krokodil25 30 March 2013 08: 10
    +3
    Pride of Russia !!! Good luck guys good
  3. Tartary
    Tartary 30 March 2013 09: 02
    0
    Quote: StrateG
    Interestingly, how would everyone be surprised if our pilots piloted the PAK FU and performed all the figures on it

    I have not yet seen what the PAK FA would make a "cobra" or "bell" ...
    Can anyone have such videos or photos in their archives?
    Share ...
    1. sergius60
      sergius60 30 March 2013 09: 49
      +1
      Dear, you can rest assured that over maneuverability was originally laid down in the TK. Although, the very "trick" of the 5th generation fighters is the shooting of targets from x ... he knows what range, while maintaining "invisibility". So, all "dances" go around the means of both passive and active support stealth... On this topic, prepare the ears, so that there is enough room for noodles. Where is the first, where is the second, and where is the third cascades of closing - "mossh" will crack to understand. So it's better not to take a steam bath. bully
    2. krokodil25
      krokodil25 30 March 2013 10: 24
      +9
      And here is the reference.




    3. Zeus
      Zeus 30 March 2013 10: 56
      +4
      They have engines with uvt, so super maneuverability with them. Now only prototypes are being tested. Give time and there will be a Pugachev cobra of 180 degrees and a Frolov chakra, a vertical turn and a forced combat turn and the Bell.
    4. VAF
      VAF 30 March 2013 14: 26
      +2
      Quote: Tartary
      I have not yet seen what the PAK FA would make a "cobra" or "bell" ...


      On the 16th flight, Edinichka .. "did" ... "showed" to the Indians ..... after that 1.5 years ...... "did. Did", but what about the people who "did" on this talked about ....... unprintable! angry
      1. 755962
        755962 30 March 2013 14: 59
        +2
        Master, hello again! And this is how to comment !?
        "Russian Knights" do not want to perform on the Yak-130

        http://vpk.name/news/87036_russkie_vityazi_ne_hotyat_vyistupat_na_yak130.html

        I don’t understand a damn (((
        1. VAF
          VAF 30 March 2013 15: 18
          +1
          Quote: 755962
          I don’t understand a damn (


          Hello again! Zhenya in your first answer already wrote everything about this! wink
  4. calculator
    calculator 30 March 2013 09: 40
    13
    Somewhat secondary question ... laughing
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 30 March 2013 10: 20
      +3
      He killed the answer on the spot .... although it is real, it is useless to paint them - not a single paint can withstand heat loads.
  5. kontrol
    kontrol 30 March 2013 09: 50
    +1
    in general, I remember that all the authorities from aviation said earlier that they would not transfer pilots to training aircraft, and here is the result of the promises, everything is as always
  6. Nayhas
    Nayhas 30 March 2013 09: 53
    +7
    I join the opinion that the transfer of modern aircraft to air acrobats, subject to their total deficit in combat units, is simply a crime. I understand that Poghosyan needs to sell as much more in order to earn money, and for this, demonstration groups are needed, but the interests of the Motherland should still be in the foreground ...
    1. sanj
      sanj 30 March 2013 12: 45
      +2
      It seems to me that the aerobatic teams should show the "circus" all the same on combat aircraft - advertising is a great thing (you need to sell aircraft), besides, the demonstration of the capabilities of combat vehicles will cool the ardor of our sworn friends.
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 30 March 2013 18: 11
        +2
        Yes, please, after completing the combat units as much as you like. And at the expense of the opponents .... as the same Malikov said, "Everything is already known in advance. All the pieces are standard." What do they recognize so frightening there? Yes, and the Su-27 with modifications has long been known to the "enemy", they have repeatedly conducted joint exercises with countries possessing the Su-30, the aerodynamics of the Su-35 is not fundamentally different from the Su-27/30, the main thing is the Su-35 avionics, which in ostentatious does not show itself in speeches.
      2. sergius60
        sergius60 31 March 2013 17: 25
        0
        Dear, REAL BUYERS will be shown everything they need, "sworn friends" will know and what they don't need to know. recourse And for whom is advertising at an air show? For the happy taxpayer viewers. Or do you believe that according to the results of "ostentatious" flights, decisions are made for TRILLION "bucks"? request
    2. Old skeptic
      Old skeptic 30 March 2013 14: 19
      +8
      In fact, these, as you called them, "acrobats" are combat pilots of the highest class fighters and they serve not in the circus, but in the Air Force.
      You have to be more respectful. This is a well-deserved test pilot, Hero of Russia, Colonel Igor Maliko can afford statements with a slight disdain for his profession, because he is super-professional, and this statement is easy fopping (he can).
      When a tank mechanic drives a nail into a tree without knocking it down, or a tank ballet, this can also be called a "circus", but he speaks of class.
      1. VAF
        VAF 30 March 2013 14: 46
        +3
        Quote: Old Skeptic
        In fact, these, as you called them, "acrobats" are combat pilots of the highest class fighters and they serve not in the circus, but in the Air Force.


        I completely agree with all KOMENT! ++++++++++++++++! drinks
      2. Danash I
        Danash I 30 March 2013 15: 32
        +1
        I consider the risk level of circus aerobatics and acrobats approximately the same. In my youth, in the mid-70s, before the performance, I watched a troupe run in an Irkutsk circus. Two barmaid prepared tables with drinks. The troupe came in a wet leotard, literally. A very respected profession among circus. I don’t think that the guys leave the plane with a smile from ear to ear, despite the special suit. and there and there is considerable risk, hard work and great professionalism. and the air force service, by definition, is serious, humor is not appropriate.
        1. VAF
          VAF 30 March 2013 16: 11
          0
          Quote: danash i
          I consider the risk level of circus aerobatics and acrobats to be approximately the same


          In general, the idea is correct, but a comparison of the degrees of risk .. is absolutely not true, but for THOUGHT +! drinks

          I hope you see how the coveralls are wet wink

      3. Nayhas
        Nayhas 30 March 2013 18: 15
        0
        Of course, I got ahead, but I can’t help but answer, I did not put the word ACROBATE in quotes, the acrobat is a difficult profession and respected, it is an excellent physical preparation and reaction, which is achieved by hard training. And the term aerial acrobatics has never been derogatory ...
      4. sergius60
        sergius60 31 March 2013 17: 34
        0
        There are 24 hours a day. It is not possible to break apart. Haven't you read the memoirs of Mark Gallai? As a test pilot, super class. They talked about him, he flies on everything that flies and a little bit on what he CANNOT fly. He described his first COMBAT sorties. He honestly described him as "stupid." And Kozhedub did not beat Pokryshkin. Not for me to condemn you, but - who studied what.
  7. Dmitry 2246
    Dmitry 2246 30 March 2013 10: 06
    +2
    Russian aerobatic teams are, first of all, constant combat training.
    This is an improvement in the combat use of aircraft.
    This is a school for creating highly qualified specialists, commanders, instructors. This is the most important stage in the training of the Asa pilot. A pilot capable of gaining air supremacy.
    Therefore, it is important that military pilots fly on the best aircraft of our country.
    1. VAF
      VAF 30 March 2013 14: 32
      0
      Quote: Dmitry 2246
      Russian aerobatic teams are, first of all, constant combat training.

      ???????????? belay

      Quote: Dmitry 2246
      This is an improvement in the combat use of aircraft.

      More ????????????????? belay

      Quote: Dmitry 2246
      This is a school for creating highly qualified specialists, commanders, instructors. This is the most important stage in the training of the Asa pilot. A pilot capable of gaining air supremacy.


      Here generally ?????????????????????????? belay

      Do you naively believe that aerobatic teams take pilots directly from schools or ... not prepared ???? wassat

      Quote: Dmitry 2246
      Therefore, it is important that military pilots fly on the best aircraft of our country.


      As a slogan .. will do, but here's how to "tie" it to your comment request
      1. Dmitry 2246
        Dmitry 2246 30 March 2013 14: 53
        +1
        What's the problem?
        Group application of aerobatics can any pilot use?
        Skills of the pilots are transmitted.
        Aerobatic teams elite in any country.
        1. VAF
          VAF 30 March 2013 15: 25
          +3
          Quote: Dmitry 2246
          What's the problem?


          Already put question marks, where ... the problem!

          Quote: Dmitry 2246
          Group application of aerobatics can any pilot use?


          No! According to the design bureau of childbirth, group aerobatics, and even more so group aerobatics, is not provided for and is not being prepared for it!

          In the combat regiments there is ... group flight and group maneuvering in close and open combat formations, with the execution of figures of only complex aerobatics, but not higher, and even more so in such "ostentatious formations"

          Interval and distance in BP 30X30,50x50, in SMU more .. all.

          Quote: Dmitry 2246
          Skills of the pilots are transmitted.


          Skills are ONLY PURCHASED if allowed to teach! And so for "amateur performance" they can by analyzing the means of the SOC and ... give one place and not weak!

          Quote: Dmitry 2246
          Aerobatic teams elite in any country.


          Here I agree .. in all countries, but here we have ... only slogans !!!!
          1. Dmitry 2246
            Dmitry 2246 30 March 2013 16: 33
            +4
            Someone "does not like" and "offend" you.
            I don’t know how skill is evaluated among flyers. And now I'm worried.
            To deny the creation of a high-class aerobatic team on combat aircraft is a complex, just what?
            He himself participated in parades and "show exercises". In the war, the acquired skills only helped.
            You do not agree much, do not keep in yourself, express yourself will become easier.
            Not everything is clear to the infantry officer. A little more specifically, please, otherwise "perforated amnesia" against the background of contusion, amputation ...
            1. VAF
              VAF 30 March 2013 17: 36
              +3
              Quote: Dmitry 2246
              Someone "does not like" and "offend" you.


              Well, I'm not a girl .. to love me, but ... about "offending" .. have not been born yet, probably who wants to try!

              Quote: Dmitry 2246
              I don’t know how skill is evaluated among flyers.


              So for this and talk, that would .. find out!

              Quote: Dmitry 2246
              To deny the creation of a high-class aerobatic team on combat aircraft is a complex, just what?


              Who denies this ?????????

              Quote: Dmitry 2246
              He himself participated in parades and "show exercises". In the war, the acquired skills only helped.


              We have everything on the contrary .. show is window dressing, but "practice" .. it's a completely different matter. How they flew in combat conditions ... for such things, at least they would be written off from flight work!

              Quote: Dmitry 2246
              You do not agree much, do not keep in yourself, express yourself will become easier.


              To whom should I? No, it won't, because. "this" will not change, but about what to say ....... why? What will it change?
              And you think they do not speak out? And people with much larger epaulets and posts than mine .. but to the point ... NO !!!

              Quote: Dmitry 2246
              A little more specifically, please, otherwise "perforated amnesia" against the background of contusion, amputation ...


              Only a specific question is given a specific answer, to the extent possible, of course, +! wink
              1. Dmitry 2246
                Dmitry 2246 30 March 2013 18: 38
                0
                "Likes and offends" I did not say in the literal sense.
                As I understand it, you speak of combat work and contrast this with a flight show.
                I dare to notice that they are not attacking right now. But in 43g. he was introduced to a training course for a young soldier.
                Also, no one calls for the release of tricolor during the battle.
                "Skills are ONLY PURCHASED" as you correctly noted during flights, even if as part of a group.
                Much like the grumbling of a non-executive subordinate: "In battle, this won't help."
                Although I understand how hard freedom-loving pilots to take something on faith.
                1. VAF
                  VAF 30 March 2013 18: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: Dmitry 2246
                  As I understand it, you speak of combat work and contrast this with a flight show.


                  Everything is WRONG! It is you who are trying to combine SHOW and WAR, and I prove to you that these are INCOMPATIBLE things.

                  Well, do not fly in the war PARADE system DO NOT FLY !!!!

                  The freedom of loving did not understand the extreme sentence (thought) at the expense of belay , and especially at the expense of taking something on faith!
        2. eagle11
          eagle11 30 March 2013 15: 49
          +3
          The problem is that in the same USA and Britain, pilots in aerobatic teams serve no more than three years, after which they leave for the army, something neither in Domna, nor in Besovets, I did not meet pilots from famous groups. As they got there from the troops, they serve there, how come someone up to retirement, someone longer ...
          1. aviamed90
            aviamed90 30 March 2013 19: 54
            0
            I support! That’s what I’m talking about all the way!
  8. crambol
    crambol 30 March 2013 10: 13
    +2
    All aerobatics is the same “circus” for the viewer.


    Long live the air ballet!
  9. tupolev-95
    tupolev-95 30 March 2013 10: 20
    +8
    Aerobatic teams are needed - this is a matter of prestige and, of course, advertising. They take sights, weapons units and forward. As for the combat units, the six sides of the weather will not do it, it is necessary to supply immediately with squadrons, to restore regiments of 2 to 3 squadrons. While the T-50 will be finalized, until everything is brought to mind. The troops are now knocking out the remaining resource and urgently need to supply the Su-35, Su-34, upgraded Mig-31, solve the problem with the Mig-35 and with the replacement of the Su-25 (I saw posters with the Su-39 at the school). ELSE TOMORROW WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FLY.
    1. VAF
      VAF 30 March 2013 14: 34
      +4
      Quote: Tupolev-95
      They take sights, weapons units and forward.


      on our Su-27 and Mig-29 (aerobatic) nothing was filmed .. everything as it is, even AKU and APU !!! soldier

      The rest I agree! +! drinks
      1. itkul
        itkul 30 March 2013 15: 20
        +1
        Quote: vaf
        on our Su-27 and MiG-29 (aerobatic) nothing was filmed .. everything as it is, even AKU and APU !!


        I correctly understand that for circus performances the most trained pilots with airplanes are removed from combat duty. And yet, will the combat readiness of the army suffer if the best are pulled out of the troops
        1. queen
          queen 30 March 2013 15: 29
          +2
          Quote: itkul
          take off the most trained pilots

          In a real war, this will not play a role, and aerobatics is a job, and they do it perfectly. drinks
        2. VAF
          VAF 30 March 2013 16: 16
          +4
          Quote: itkul
          I correctly understand that for circus performances, the most trained pilots with airplanes are removed from combat duty.


          At the root, NOT TRUE !!! The most trained pilots from combat units are selected (voluntarily) in the aerobatic team.
          Planes of aerobatic teams (with us) are on the database only theoretically and do not carry any duty!

          Quote: itkul
          And yet, does the combat readiness of the army suffer if the best are pulled out of the troops


          No, it does not suffer, because. in aerobatics UNITS from among those who want to get into aerobatics ..... the regiment commander "suffers" more when you leave to enter the CPLI, so if they find out that you were at an interview, then wait ... "melon", and if a paper comes from Red with a seal about a call to exams ... then ... it is better to crawl into the combat department for a business trip and at night wassat +! drinks
          1. queen
            queen 30 March 2013 16: 27
            +1
            Quote: vaf
            paper with red print

            Does this mean incomplete training of personnel?
            1. VAF
              VAF 30 March 2013 17: 41
              +3
              Quote: regin
              Does this mean incomplete training of personnel?


              No Volodya, this suggests that this paper comes from the Ministry of Defense, signed by the Ministry of Defense or its deputy, and it is written in nrey ... "send this and that, for ... then," and the regiment commander planning table number 1. then there will be a "hole" in it until a new one is prepared .... that's a firebrand, so the regiment commander is better ... not to get caught!
              And he also .. "promises" he distributes .. "God forbid you will not do ... rot when you return", joking, of course, he himself will only be glad, but I must say! soldier
  10. ankh-andrej
    ankh-andrej 30 March 2013 11: 04
    +3
    All the same, the Yak-130 is not the plane that can produce the necessary impression on the global audience. Why not use the new MiGs? All this looks like some kind of underhanded fuss. Using Yaks to demonstrate the capabilities of our aircraft products is not the best solution. request
  11. aviamed90
    aviamed90 30 March 2013 13: 27
    +1
    And did anyone think: why are these aerobatic teams actually created? What are millions going for? And no matter what types of aircraft.
    For advertising (pretty expensive)? For combat training and development of new tactics (for this there is the Lipetsk Pulp and Paper Mill and PLC FA)? For window dressing out of the sky for joy to the population? What is the task of these groups?
    Now, if the flight crew, with which they are equipped, would transfer their experience to combat pilots, then it is understandable. 2-3 of the year in the group and in the troops - this makes practical sense and benefit. But this does not happen! Aerobatics for aerobatics! Circus art is certainly good. And where is the training of the flight personnel of the combat units?
    1. PLO
      PLO 30 March 2013 13: 39
      +3
      And did anyone think: why are these aerobatic teams actually created? What are millions going for? And no matter what types of aircraft.

      advertising and entertainment is not enough?
      and aerobatics are practically not used in battle, although rotation would probably be a useful thing
      and as for the millions, you are not digging there, amid the bobs being stolen in our country, saving on such aerobatic teams is the same as saving on matches ..

      besides military aerobatic teams there are not so many 3
      knights and swifts on the su-27 and mig-29 and falcons from lipetsk, they just fly on different machines on the su-27 and su-34, because there is everything in lipetsk
      1. aviamed90
        aviamed90 30 March 2013 14: 17
        -1
        Few!
        Let it be known to you that just the elements of aerobatics are also used in maneuverable close air combat. Read the book of A.I. Pokryshkina! Look through the Combat Charter of fighter aircraft! For a fighter, this is the basis. If not, he is not a fighter.
        By the way, what is the Rus aerobatic team (DOSAAF) for on the L-39? When was the last time DOSAAF released pilots for the Air Force ???
        I am not against the aerobatic teams themselves. Just me - for !!! But gentlemen, military fighter pilots are not acrobats in the circus! Decide and set a specific task for them, directly related to the training of the flight personnel!
        1. atalef
          atalef 30 March 2013 14: 39
          +2
          Quote: aviamed90
          Let it be known to you that just the elements of aerobatics are also used in maneuverable close air combat. Read the book of A.I. Pokryshkina! Look through the Combat Charter of fighter aircraft!

          I would like to know the opinion of experts regarding close air combat (more precisely, its probability in our time) and what is meant by close combat (distance) and somersaults of aerobatics, which can give some advantage.
          Like by the way Pokryshkin’s book - its relevance in the 21 century?
          1. VAF
            VAF 30 March 2013 14: 55
            +3
            Quote: atalef
            what is meant by the near (distance)


            From 20 km and less!

            Quote: atalef
            somersaults of aerobatics are able to give some sort of advantage.


            No ... only angular accelerations and displacements, as well as performing precisely these maneuvers at supercritical angles of attack, and then only in order to disrupt the AC or already the PRM, if ... happened and then the only correct way is ... " Fedotov's tub ", but Cobras, Chakras, Kulbits .... this is a pure demonstration of the aerodynamic qualities of the stability and controllability of the aircraft .... no more !!!
            1. TSOOBER
              TSOOBER 30 March 2013 15: 32
              +1
              hello vaf If you can answer please, what is the likelihood of using a gun in close combat or only on cruise missiles for drones, etc. Thank you in advance!
              1. eagle11
                eagle11 30 March 2013 15: 57
                -1
                About cruise missiles, smiled! Gun !!! Haha
                1. TSOOBER
                  TSOOBER 30 March 2013 21: 18
                  0
                  eagle11 Today, 15:57 ↑ -1
                  About cruise missiles, smiled! Gun !!! Haha
                  A-50 detects a cruise missile (Mach 0,75 speed), gives target designation to the MIG -31 interceptor (speed up to 3 max)!
                  1. eagle11
                    eagle11 31 March 2013 05: 44
                    +1
                    Dear TSOOBER! Did you shoot down a lot of CDs? Or can you give examples of the destruction of the KR by firing a cannon from any aircraft? I will not go into details, but I can answer for myself, I participated, of course, not from a cannon :) And more recently, 20.03.13/50/31. And there were at this holiday, and the "vaunted" A-27, which, roughly speaking, flunked its work, MiG-300, Su-1, S-50PS and BUK-M27. It is not so easy to spot a rocket, with just one A-27, even if it is in a missile-dangerous direction, the target is complex, radar (low altitude, mountainous landscape, target against the background of the earth) and visually (now there is still snow) poorly distinguishable. In particular, the Su-31 lost a missile just after its maneuver, with visual contact !!! Of course you were in "29" and "23", I hope? So in the "drying" there is a gorgeous review, and it seemed to me so gorgeous, after the MiG-31, which seemed gorgeous after the MiG-23MLD, when I first sat down in "31st", I remembered "31rd"! And you write to shoot with a cannon! The crews of "33s" do not even perform the cannon firing exercise! And here a maneuverable, poorly discernible target, goes with a rounding of the relief ... I will say more, at one time I read the candidate's on this topic and methodological recommendations, studied. So, the "5st" carries out an attack using the R-7, in the PPS, with an excess of ~ 12-15 km, the launch distance is 31-17500 km (in real life), the sight does not see it in the ZPS, it is also difficult to detect TP, therefore, when developing the "Plan of air combat against the CD", this option is not even considered! It's funny, because having from the comrades (the earth is round) the flight route of the KR, the maneuvers calculated in seconds, it was not shot down! And the speed of the MiG-2,83, maximum at H = XNUMXm, M = XNUMX. And this is not a car, it takes a lot of time and fuel to bring it up, and you have to catch up, then you still need to take a position to attack! I hope it became clear why ha ha! Yours faithfully!
                    1. TSOOBER
                      TSOOBER 31 March 2013 12: 24
                      +1
                      Thank you very much for the detailed answer! That's takba right away and then HA HA! I'm not a pilot, but an interesting topic — I ask questions and get sensible answers — that's why I’m sitting on the site, not on Wikipedia!
                      1. eagle11
                        eagle11 31 March 2013 14: 37
                        +1
                        Everyone measures for himself, that's why he reacted. And on this site, there are a lot of statements from people who are "not in the subject." For me, this is work, I only write what I know. But I can't write a lot, so open my eyes a little to reality.
              2. VAF
                VAF 30 March 2013 16: 23
                +3
                Quote: TSOOBER
                what is the likelihood of using a gun in close combat


                Large, and interest and probably depend on many reasons!

                1. As taught.
                2. What are the skills (training).
                3. Type of aircraft (the possibility of angular movements of both the target and you)
                4. The angle of approach or attack.

                I didn’t shoot at missiles and drones, but at the cones .. freely .. there were no comments drinks
            2. Odysseus
              Odysseus 30 March 2013 15: 44
              +2
              Quote: vaf
              From 20 km and less!

              Welcome. hi
              The definition was considered traditional, within the limits of visual visibility. Something has changed ?
              1. VAF
                VAF 30 March 2013 16: 24
                +2
                Quote: Odyssey
                The definition was considered traditional, within the limits of visual visibility. Something has changed ?


                Hi drinks I answer:

                1. The presence of OLS.
                2. The capabilities of BVB missiles
                1. queen
                  queen 30 March 2013 16: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: vaf
                  The definition was considered traditional, within the limits of visual visibility. Something has changed ?

                  Sergey add)))
                2. Odysseus
                  Odysseus 30 March 2013 20: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: vaf
                  1. The presence of OLS.
                  2. The capabilities of BVB missiles

                  Thank you. I, in the old fashioned way, believed that everything outside the line of sight was already DVB.
            3. krokodil25
              krokodil25 30 March 2013 16: 25
              0
              Quote: vaf
              but Cobras, Chakras, Kulbits .... this is a pure display of the aerodynamic qualities of stability and controllability of an airplane .... no more !!!



              When performing the "cobra" the plane sharply lifts its nose, up to throwing it back, but at the same time preserves the previous direction of flight. Thus, the aircraft reaches angles of attack of more than 90 degrees: for the Su-27 - 110 °, for the Su-37 - up to 180 ° (that is, the Su-37 can fly with its tail forward). Then, the plane returns to normal flight mode with virtually no loss of altitude.
              Technically, the maneuver is performed by disabling the longitudinal stability and taking the handle over.
              The practical significance of this figure in battle is the possibility of an emergency speed drop, which allows you to "shake off the tail" of an enemy fighter in close combat.


              Kolokol - aerobatics, in which the aircraft is nose up at zero speed, after which, sagging down, capsize nose down, simulating the swing of the bell language. After the plane passes zero speed (that is, the speed changes from a given input speed to zero), when it falls to the “tail”, the speed has a negligible negative value, and after tipping the nose down it increases to the speed of withdrawal into horizontal flight.

              The practical significance of this figure in battle lies in the fact that during the passage of zero speed the plane becomes invisible to Doppler radars and missile heads with radar guidance to the target. Also used when working on the surface to dampen speed and subsequent aiming.
              1. VAF
                VAF 30 March 2013 17: 54
                +6
                Quote: krokodil25
                which allows you to "shake off the tail" of an enemy fighter in close combat.


                Complete stupidity! I won’t even explain, make a cobra in front of me .. you will get 50 pieces of shells right away (even with a cut-off), and for a rocket, just be a great target!

                Quote: krokodil25
                in battle, it means that at zero speed the plane becomes invisible to Doppler radars and missile heads with radar guidance to the target.


                Another GREAT stupidity, because firstly, pulse-Doppler radars are only here, and in Aeroflot, on Earth.
                And secondly, in order to become invisible, it is also necessary for the attacking rocket .. to freeze, then a capture failure is possible, and so long as there is a difference in speeds ..... you will have a full mouth of the earth right away !!!
                According to your theory, the helicopter is generally unbreakable. It depends on itself in one place and waits .. until the missiles fly by wassat
                Himself is not funny? wink

                Quote: krokodil25
                Also used when working on the surface to dampen speed and subsequent aiming.


                And this is only at the test site on a fixed target, and then ....... only theory!
                1. queen
                  queen 30 March 2013 18: 37
                  +2
                  ++++++++++++++++++ right now I’ll only get out from under the table laughing laughing laughing
                2. Botanologist
                  Botanologist 31 March 2013 01: 09
                  +3
                  make a cobra in front of me ... a piece of 50 shells get right away

                  You are angry drinks .
              2. queen
                queen 30 March 2013 18: 39
                +1
                Quote: krokodil25
                “Shake off the tail” of an enemy fighter in close combat.

                Shake in bends
          2. Odysseus
            Odysseus 30 March 2013 15: 04
            +2
            Quote: atalef
            about close air combat (more precisely, its probability in our time

            Possible with a comparable technical level of opponents, the probability increases with an increase in the number of aircraft participating in the battle.
            Figuratively speaking, in a collision of 10 F-22 with 10 F-22, there will be a BVB, in a collision of 10 F-22 with 10 F-15, a BVB will not occur.
            1. queen
              queen 30 March 2013 15: 45
              +4
              Quote: Odyssey
              10 F-22 c 10 F-22, there will be a BVB, in a collision 10 F-22 c 10 F-15 BVB

              + Hrenish you grind up a meat grinder))))) I would like to see it live good
              1. Odysseus
                Odysseus 30 March 2013 20: 39
                +2
                Quote: regin
                + Hrenish you grind up a meat grinder))))) I would like to see it live

                And what? Nehai chopped. Showing their own coolness let themselves fall smile
                Seriously, the amers are constantly working out group fights, in particular with the help of them the Raptors won their notorious 144-0 victory in 2006.
            2. eagle11
              eagle11 30 March 2013 16: 10
              0
              You need to look wider, forces and means are used comprehensively, there is a chance, if there is a strong REP, then visual contact is possible, quite unexpectedly for opponents.
              1. Odysseus
                Odysseus 30 March 2013 20: 43
                0
                Quote: eagle11

                You need to look wider, forces and means are used comprehensively, there is a chance, if there is a strong REP, then visual contact is possible, quite unexpectedly for opponents

                Thanks for the clarification. But speaking of a comparable technical level of the parties, in particular, I had in mind the possibility of conducting an active REP by them.
          3. atalef
            atalef 30 March 2013 16: 04
            +3
            Quote: vaf
            Cobras, Chakras, Kulbits .... this is a pure display of the aerodynamic qualities of stability and controllability of an aircraft .... no more !!!

            So here I am about that half of the people think that the Swifts will fly in and in any battle they will chop everyone into cabbage. Actually (in my understanding), to a large extent, this is just a show, with some demonstration of the aircraft’s capabilities / It has nothing to do with real combat, and in general it’s not effective to use military aircraft, given their lack of troops.
            1. VAF
              VAF 30 March 2013 17: 56
              +1
              Quote: atalef
              Actually (in my understanding) - to a large extent this is just a show, with some demonstration of aircraft capabilities


              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++! Only the word SOME .. out of place here, especially when solo!
        2. VAF
          VAF 30 March 2013 14: 50
          +4
          Quote: aviamed90
          Let it be known to you that just the elements of aerobatics are also used in maneuverable close air combat


          Let it be known to you that a modern highly maneuverable aerial combat is not conducted at speeds, angles of attack, rolls and overloads of WWII times !!!!
          if there this range was in the order of things, then for modern aircraft this is an area of ​​pre-landing and landing maneuvers !!! soldier
          1. aviamed90
            aviamed90 30 March 2013 14: 57
            0
            In addition to close air combat, there are also anti-ballistic and anti-destructive maneuvers.
            1. VAF
              VAF 30 March 2013 15: 37
              +3
              Quote: aviamed90
              In addition to close air combat, there are also anti-ballistic and anti-destructive maneuvers.


              "A little in the know!" wink

              But PIM and PFR are ELEMENTS of any WB, even a distant one, even a close one, and not .. as you put it .. "except" lol
              And they are primarily aimed at disrupting the detection and capture modes at the AS by performing maneuvers with large angular accelerations in order to exit both the carrier and the missile from the radar coverage area.
              I will not repeat myself in the comment atalef 'u I wrote everything, if you’re not too lazy, you’ll read it, but no ... then don’t hi
        3. eagle11
          eagle11 30 March 2013 15: 55
          +2
          You are fundamentally mistaken, the guys from the "aerobatic pilots" do not even carry the DB, I remember how they appointed crews from the same Andreapol for air defense duty, tk. for duty, it is necessary not only to twist aerobatics, but also to perform KBP exercises. They don't teach anyone, that's a fact.
  12. aviamed90
    aviamed90 30 March 2013 15: 38
    +1
    "North Vietnam. January - December 1966.
    The very first air battles showed that, due to the lower specific wing load than the F-4, the MiG-21 has better horizontal maneuverability, especially at high altitudes and low speeds. Proceeding from this, the North Vietnamese pilots without any fear began to get involved in close combat. But most of the MiG-21s were armed with only two R-Zs missiles, which had a low value of permissible overload at the time of launch (only 1,4 units!). Otherwise, the rocket did not leave the guides - the blocking system worked. Because of this, with skillful maneuvering of the enemy, the use of R-Zs missiles became difficult. The lack of cannon armament and a small stock of missiles became the reasons for the losses of many MiG-21s - after all, after the launch of both URs, the plane became unarmed! At the same time, it is reliably known about the widespread use of the GP-9 in the Indo-Pakistani armed conflict in 1971. By the way, faced with a similar problem on the gunless Phantom of the F-4B / C / D / J modifications in battles with the MiG-17, the Americans immediately began to equip their aircraft with suspended cannon installations. Later, built-in artillery weapons both on the Phantom (F-4E) and on the latest MiG-21 series (MiG-21M, etc.) became standard. Another disadvantage of the MiG-21 was its weak airborne radar, which tied it to a system of vulnerable ground target designation and guidance stations. At the same time, the absence of a heavy radar made it light and maneuverable.
    The Vietnamese compensated for these shortcomings of the MiG-21 with the tactics of a "series of missile attacks", especially effective when the enemy was outnumbered. The attacking MiGs launched guided missiles in pursuit of the enemy at a speed of 1,2M. This technique, which required high skill of the pilot and competent guidance from the command post, ensured a surprise attack, sufficient efficiency and practical invulnerability of the attacker. The joint use of different types of fighters (MiG-17, -19, -21) was quite widely practiced: the subsonic MiG-17, which had advantages at low altitudes, drove American fighter-bombers upward, where they were met with MiG-21 missile attacks. -17 as a kind of decoy, attacking which the American F-4s themselves came under attack. "
    1. VAF
      VAF 30 March 2013 16: 53
      +2
      Quote: aviamed90
      has better horizontal maneuverability, especially at high altitudes and low speeds.


      At first I wanted to not answer at all, because Firstly, it’s very difficult and almost impossible to try to prove or tell INETOVSKY specials, and especially ..Vikovsky ..... this is something.
      Secondly, for those who do not read anything, what they write to him, but try to "stick" with the context of what they do not understand at all !!!
      How much did I write to you about maneuvers with angular movements ???? And you give me a quote about horizontal maneuverability ..... that is. You don’t understand that it’s one and the same thing, only I’m writing in more detail about what this maneuverability is!
      well, I won’t even answer about two missiles, and the lack of cannon weapons ..... it wasn’t only on PF-ah, FL-ah, and on all the others there were either a 2nd or 1-gun, and on the PMF and C -kah-there was a hanging cannon container
  13. aviamed90
    aviamed90 30 March 2013 15: 44
    0
    That is, no one canceled the small arms and cannon weapons on the fighter. And there is also a short-range AUR:
    The short-range missile R-60 (product 62) with a thermal homing head is designed to destroy highly maneuverable manned aircraft and unmanned aerial reconnaissance vehicles in close air battles within sight.
    TTX I will not give they are on the network.
    1. VAF
      VAF 30 March 2013 16: 56
      0
      Quote: aviamed90
      That is, no one canceled the small arms and cannon weapons on the fighter.


      And who said that he was not? belay

      Quote: aviamed90
      And there is also a short-range AUR:
      Short-range missile R-60 (product 62)


      Not there, but WERE, now completely different missiles for the BVB
      1. eagle11
        eagle11 31 March 2013 14: 38
        0
        You are mistaken, on the MiG-31, from small ones, only the R-60.
        1. VAF
          VAF 31 March 2013 18: 17
          +1
          Quote: eagle11
          You are mistaken, on the MiG-31, from small ones, only the R-60.


          I am mistaken? belay Oh well.... wink

          photo .. not photoshop, but a real BM with real R-73s soldier

  14. aviamed90
    aviamed90 30 March 2013 15: 47
    -1
    Oddly enough, from Wikipedia:
    Close combat as a phenomenon present in the context of any major conflict existed at least until 1992, although even after World War II, the development of aircraft speed and range of arms made it obsolete. In modern air combat, long-range weapons are used, which can be used against an opponent long before what was previously understood as air combat. Homing missiles can be activated when the aircraft is much further from the target than when using a machine gun, and will automatically try to pursue the target.

    Close air combat has now become a rare occurrence, but, nevertheless, all modern fighters still have cannon weapons for possible combat clashes. All fighter jets have an integrated cannon mount, with the exception of the F-35 variants B and C, in which the gun is placed in a special hanging container.

    Modern close air combat is called "Air Combat Manoeuvring", which means attacking or evading one or more opponents.
    1. VAF
      VAF 30 March 2013 17: 00
      +1
      Quote: aviamed90
      Close air combat as a phenomenon present in the context of any major conflict existed at least until 1992, although even after World War II, the development of aircraft speed and range of arms made it obsolete.



      Once again, read what I wrote above, especially about your .. "links" to Pokryshkin's book !!!!

      Those. as I said above, you yourself do not understand what you are talking about and what you are trying to prove to someone!

      Decide at last ... is there a BVB or is it still not there, as such !!!!

      Read less about Vika !!! hi
  15. aviamed90
    aviamed90 30 March 2013 15: 53
    +1
    So what do we have in the end?
    1. queen
      queen 30 March 2013 16: 14
      +1
      Quote: aviamed90
      So what do we have in the end?

      Stock up on breadcrumbs, matches and cigarettes))))))) laughing
      1. VAF
        VAF 30 March 2013 18: 12
        +3
        Quote: regin
        Stock up on breadcrumbs


        Well, why only .. with breadcrumbs wink



        Quote: regin
        matches and cigarettes)


        The constitution guarantees freedom of choice ... and you are all matches, sugar, salt, flour ... wassat

        1. queen
          queen 30 March 2013 19: 14
          +1
          Quote: vaf
          Constitution guarantees freedom of choice

          Sergey agrees, but not to the corruption of society. I was born in the USSR drinks
        2. queen
          queen 30 March 2013 22: 33
          +1
          And this is just for unloading))))
          1. VAF
            VAF 31 March 2013 18: 19
            +1
            Quote: regin
            And it's just for unloading


            I respect you very much! Everything that relates to the style of Nard-Thrash..this ..my! +! wassat
            1. queen
              queen 31 March 2013 18: 29
              +1
              Quote: vaf
              I respect you very much! Everything that relates to the Nard-Thrash style ... is ..my! +

              Greetings Sergey))) in '91 I was in Tushino ... it's something +