What tactics could have been used for using heavy cruisers against convoys in conditions of enemy dominance at sea?

20 718 103
What tactics could have been used for using heavy cruisers against convoys in conditions of enemy dominance at sea?

Let's consider the combat path of the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper. Of course, it was not a "Washington" cruiser of the first series, which my materials are devoted to, and, according to the plans of its creators, it was not intended for raider operations against the British fleet. Due to the fact that the power plant of ships of this type turned out to be very capricious and gluttonous, this cruiser was generally very poorly suited for operations on ocean communications. Nevertheless, the operations in which the Admiral Hipper took part, illustrate well the capabilities of heavy cruisers of the Second World War in terms of countering a stronger enemy.

Admiral Hipper's Raids


The combat path of this ship began with Operation Weser Exercise, in which the cruiser took part in the capture of the Norwegian port of Trondheim. Together with the Hipper, the main forces of the Kriegsmarine participated in it, including the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, but it still remained extremely dangerous, since it was carried out, one might say, under the noses of the British, who had overwhelming naval power.

The unit that included the Hipper was quickly discovered - the ship went to sea shortly before midnight on April 6, 1940, and on April 7 it was spotted by British air reconnaissance. The subsequent air raid was not successful. Some time later, the heavy cruiser received an order to destroy the British destroyer Glowworm, which was discovered by German ships of the same class. The Hipper intercepted the Glowworm, but was unable to fully realize its artillery potential – the weather was an obstacle, so it was only possible to open fire on the British destroyer from 45 cable lengths. The commander of the Hipper acted aggressively – he went straight for the British ship, although he could only fire from the bow main caliber turrets, and continued to approach, despite the smoke screen laid by the Glowworm. As a result, the British destroyer was sunk, but not before he managed to ram the Admiral Hipper.


Despite some damage, the German cruiser continued to carry out its combat mission, entered Trondheim Fjord, suppressed the fire of Fort Husnes and landed troops. Then, alone, it was able to return to Germany, slipping under the stern of a large formation of the British Home Fleet, including three battleships and the same number of heavy cruisers. Of course, the "Weser Exercises" were not an operation to interrupt or protect shipping. But they serve as an excellent demonstration of the capabilities of a heavy cruiser to operate in conditions of enemy dominance at sea and in the air.

Then Admiral Hipper took part in Operation Jumo (Juno?), the purpose of which was to attack from the sea the British strongholds in Norway, including Harstad. The attack did not take place, since the commander of the German squadron, after going to sea, based on data on the movement of British ships, assumed that the British were evacuating.

Accordingly, he reoriented himself to actions against the British convoys. The German ships deployed on a wide front in search of the convoy and managed to catch and sink the naval tanker Old Pioneer, the armed trawler Juniper and the troop transport Orama, with both Juniper and Orama being claimed by Hipper. It is noteworthy that a large German naval group was operating in the North Sea, in the zone of dominance of the Royal Navy, but even after the sinking of the three ships mentioned above, the British were unaware of its presence.

Then the Hipper tried to reach the ocean communications, but the raid from July 27 to August 11, 1940 was unsuccessful - as a prize it got only a small dry cargo ship Esther Thorden of 1940 register tons. True, almost 2 tons of gold were found on it. Another sortie, in which the heavy cruiser had to draw away the British ships to support Operation Seelewe, but there the Hipper's chassis broke down, and they did not carry out Seelewe.

The next sortie of the Admiral Hipper on November 29 – December 27, 1940 turned out to be much more interesting. The cruiser not only went out to the ocean, but also managed to intercept the military convoy WS-5A. The latter, however, was well covered: it was protected by the heavy cruiser Berwick, the light cruisers Bonaventure and Dunedin, several destroyers and frigates. The British also had the aircraft carrier Furious, but it should not be taken into account – in this case, it played the role of an air transport and did not carry an air group. However, even without the Furious’s aircraft, the convoy’s forces clearly surpassed the Admiral Hipper in firepower.

The Hipper approached the convoy, where it came across the Berwick and, remaining undetected, attempted to attack it with torpedoes. But during the preparations for the attack, other British warships were discovered, and in the end, everything did not go according to plan: the Hipper opened fire on the Berwick and was forced to retreat. Of course, the British tried to catch up with the German cruiser, but after the Berwick received 4 hits from 203-mm shells, they abandoned the pursuit.

On the one hand, all this is a clear failure of the German raider, since it was unable to reach the convoy ships. But, on the other hand, this episode can be seen as the Admiral Hipper's compliance with the task assigned to it. A cruiser on a raid risks encountering superior enemy forces, and in this case, that is what happened. But the good training of the German gunners, combined with an excellent fire control system and sufficient speed, allowed it to break away from pursuit, avoiding damage. Already on the retreat, the Hipper accidentally encountered and sank the British ship Jumna (6078 reg. tons).

The next sortie from 1 to 14 February 1941 became the finest hour of the Hipper - it managed to intercept the convoy "SLS-64" in the area of ​​the Azores Islands, consisting of 19 ships without combat escort. But the effectiveness of its attack is absolutely impossible to assess based on Russian-language sources. Thus, according to V. L. Kofman, it turns out that it is reliably known about 7 sunken and 5 surviving ships, the fate of the remaining 7 ships is unclear: there is no reliable information either about their death or about their arrival in port. At the same time, the commander of the "Admiral Hipper" Meisel claimed 13 sunken ships. Based on this, V. L. Kofman, moreover, with reference to unknown German specialists, builds a theory that perhaps the Germans really destroyed not 7, but 13 or even 14 ships. But the cunning British did not show this, because these ships were not sailing under the British or allied flag, but under the flag of neutral countries.

In fact, information about these 7 “conspiracy” ships is present in foreign literature – they survived the massacre at the Azores. This fact, unfortunately, serves as another example of how dangerous it is to rely on the naval theory in studying stories foreign fleets of World War II exclusively on Russian-language sources.

But let's return to the Admiral Hipper. This raid was the last of its Atlantic campaigns. The cruiser then went to Germany for modernization, and then, in March 1942, was redeployed to Norway. In July, the Hipper was part of a squadron led by the battleship Tirpitz to destroy the PQ-17 convoy, but the operation was cancelled. Then it was planned to use it in Operation Doppelschlag - a repeat of Operation Wunderland, carried out by Admiral Scheer, but now with the forces of two heavy cruisers, including Scheer. This operation also did not take place.


In September, the cruiser went out to lay mines, which was successfully carried out in the Matochkin Shar Strait - 96 mines were laid. It is possible that our submarine "K-1" was blown up and destroyed by one of them. And then the cruiser made its last two attempts to operate on communications.

From November 5 to 9, Admiral Hipper and four destroyers carried out Operation Hoffnung, the idea of ​​which was to try to catch ships that had fallen behind the convoys. According to V. Kofman and M. Morozov, the result of the operation was the sinking of SKR-23 and the tanker Donbass (8 GRT). But there is some uncertainty here, because according to A. Sergeev, SKR-000 perished on October 23, 11, having struck a German mine.

Then, from December 30, 1942 to January 1, 1943, Admiral Hipper made her final contact with the British during Operation Regenbogen, which later became widely known as the "New Year's disgrace".

The Kriegsmarine unit consisting of Admiral Hipper, Lützow and 6 destroyers managed to detect and attack the Arctic convoy JW-51B, which was guarded by 2 light cruisers, 6 destroyers, 2 corvettes, a minesweeper and 2 armed trawlers. At the same time, the main force of the British - the cruisers Sheffield and Jamaica - formed a distant cover and could not immediately appear on the battlefield.

The Germans spotted the convoy and engaged its immediate escort, sinking the destroyer Ecates and the minesweeper Bramble, but fought with extreme caution despite being confronted by ships from a destroyer down. In contrast, Admiral Burnett, commanding the British cruisers, acted decisively. Using radar, he moved his cruisers to a position north of the Admiral Hipper and closed to within 60 cables: only then did the German cruiser become visible through optics. The Sheffield and Jamaica immediately opened fire.

Radar undoubtedly gave the British an advantage, but the problem was that visibility to the north that day was much better than to the south. Admiral Hipper could not detect the British cruisers for some time even after they opened fire. Almost immediately, fate smiled on the brave British - Hipper received a "golden hit". A shell that hit under the armor belt caused flooding of the boiler rooms, as a result of which the cruiser took on about 1000 tons of water and lost up to 2/3 of the power of the power plant.

Quite by chance, two German destroyers came upon the British cruisers. The British were the first (predictably) to take their bearings, opening fire and sinking one of them, the second managed to escape. After that, the Germans retreated, and the British did not pursue them.

What do the results of the "New Year's Battle" indicate? The attack by the German heavy cruisers was not spontaneous: the convoy was discovered by German submarines. With intelligence, the Germans were able to attack the important convoy with superior forces, taking by surprise its main cover, which managed to appear on the battlefield only after 4 hours from the moment of the first contact. At 07.20, the Germans discovered the enemy and began to concentrate forces on it, but it was only at 11.31 that the British cruisers opened fire.

Despite the Germans' extremely cautious actions, the British forces directly protecting the convoy had essentially exhausted their ability to counteract the German raiders by the time the light cruisers arrived. If the British light cruisers had been delayed any longer, the convoy could have suffered heavy losses.

But the Sheffield and Jamaica, having appeared on the battlefield, thanks to the competent actions of Admiral Burnett, luck and superiority in radar, managed to deliver a sudden and powerful blow to the Hipper. Nevertheless, even after this success, the British could still have been defeated if the Germans had acted decisively. In this case, the German sailors would have received a prize in the form of 14 transports carrying 120 combat aircraft, 202 tank, more than 2000 transport vehicles, 24 tons of fuel and aviation fuel, not counting 150 tons of other cargo. The fact that the commander of the German squadron was overly cautious and failed the task assigned to him cannot be blamed on the performance characteristics of the Kriegsmarine heavy cruisers. They were quite capable of delivering a fatal blow to convoy JW-54B.

Some statistics


Let us consider the raids of German heavy cruisers on the British Atlantic communications. There were, in fact, very few of these:

"Admiral Hipper" - 3 raids;
"Prince Eugen" - 1 raid;
"Admiral Graf Spee" - 1 raid;
"Deutschland"/"Lutzow" - 2 raids;
"Admiral Scheer" - 1 raid.

In total, there were 8 campaigns. Two of them (Admiral Graf Spee and Deutschland) began before the war – the ships were sent out to the ocean in peacetime. Accordingly, during the war, the Kriegsmarine heavy cruisers went on Atlantic raids 6 times. But the British managed to prevent only one of the 6. The British discovered the advancing Lützow and attacked it with torpedo bombers: it received a torpedo in the side, which, in fact, ended the “raid”.

In 8 campaigns, the Germans had three contacts with equivalent British warships: Admiral Hipper fought with Berwick, Prinz Eugen, sailing with Bismarck, was intercepted by British cruisers and battleships, and finally, Admiral Graf Spee met one heavy and two light British cruisers near La Plata. If we take into account that contact with Berwick occurred on the initiative of Admiral Hipper, and that Lützow received an aerial torpedo before it could be intercepted by surface ships, it turns out that British warships managed to intercept German heavy cruisers only in two cases out of seven.

I do not have exact data, but I can assume that out of 8 Atlantic campaigns of German heavy cruisers, the interception of convoys was seriously planned in maximum 6 cases or less. I exclude the first raid of the Deutschland, because the orders that the commander of this ship received were extremely contradictory, including a ban on engaging in combat with British warships, which, in general, made the fight against convoys impossible. Also excluded is one of the sorties of the Hipper, when it was tasked with distracting British ships, providing for the failed Seelewe.

It turns out that six sorties of heavy cruisers (including the ill-fated "raid" of "Lützow", which ended before it began) were crowned with three contacts with British convoys. Two of these contacts led to an unequivocal success for the Germans - "Admiral Hipper" intercepted convoy JW-51B and sank some of its ships, and "Admiral Scheer" did the same with convoy HX-84. In another raid, "Hipper", having come upon a British convoy, was forced to retreat in the face of superior forces of its escort.

At the same time, the heavy cruisers of the Kriegsmarine demonstrated a fairly good survival rate - only one ship (Admiral Graf Spee) was lost in 8 raids. Let me remind you that of the 8 specially built German cruisers that operated on Britain's ocean communications in World War I, not a single one survived.

Here is another interesting point. In all three cases, when the Germans managed to intercept British convoys, this happened relatively quickly after the ships set out to sea. Admiral Scheer intercepted NH-84 on the 9th day after setting out on a raid. Admiral Hipper: in the first case – on the 24th day of the raid, in the second – on the 12th day. Moreover, in the first, 24-day case, Admiral Hipper was simply unlucky. Its commander planned to attack the convoy no later than 10 days after the cruiser set out to sea, but the attack on that and the following convoy did not take place.

"Anti-convoy" tactics of heavy cruisers


It can be stated that heavy cruisers demonstrated the ability to successfully operate, including against enemy convoys in conditions where the enemy had control of the sea. But heavy cruisers were not self-sufficient for such a fight.


Firstly, the heavy cruisers' own reconnaissance assets were not always sufficient to detect the convoy. Secondly, and this is the most important thing, even in cases where the convoy had a nominal escort (the attack on Admiral Scheer NH-84, which was protected by the auxiliary cruiser Jervis Bay) or had no escort at all (convoy SLS-64, attacked by Hipper), the heavy cruisers could not destroy all or most of its ships on their own. The transports, seeing the ship attacking them, scattered in different directions, and thus a significant number of ships managed to escape the attack.

Even without spending much time on destroying the escort (the Jervis Bay was destroyed within 20 minutes), the heavy cruisers managed to destroy no more than 5-7 ships from the convoy. Theoretically, the raider could "catch" more, but it was limited in interception time. The attacked ships of the convoy immediately radioed about the attack, and it was, naturally, impossible to suppress all radio stations. It is obvious that the heavy cruiser a priori exposed itself by attacking the convoy and had to manage to get away as far as possible by the time the forces sent to intercept it could approach.

In view of the above, I see the role of a heavy cruiser in the “anti-convoy” struggle on the communications of the Second World War not only and not so much in the destruction of merchant ships, but in destroying the escort and forcing the convoy to disperse. Then, sailing alone, the ships can become easy prey for submarines, as well as aviation, if the routes of these ships pass within its combat radius, of course.

In my opinion, the operation to destroy the British convoy in the Atlantic had to be carried out in approximately the following sequence:

1. Discovery of the main convoy routes through intelligence, data from deployed submarines and regular flights of long-range reconnaissance aircraft;

2. Deployment of a heavy cruiser (or several, depending on the strength of the expected escort) and support vessels (tankers) into the ocean unnoticed by the enemy;

3. Search for the target of attack - a convoy in the ocean by submarines, aircraft and the cruiser itself, including the use of seaplanes based on them. At the same time, the heavy cruiser must do everything possible not to violate the stealth regime - radio silence, avoiding meeting with any ships they notice, etc.;

4. In general, if a convoy is detected by an aircraft or submarine, the planning of the operation and deployment of available forces is organized through a headquarters located on land. But this is not a dogma. Thus, if a convoy is detected by a heavy cruiser and there is a threat of losing its stealth, an immediate attack is possible;

5. It is obvious that after attacking the convoy, the enemy will try to bring superior forces to intercept the heavy cruiser. Accordingly, the raider's main task at this stage of the operation is to return to base as quickly as possible. And only if the escape routes are blocked by enemy patrols, it will be permissible to go to remote sea or ocean areas for some time. Hunting for single merchant ships can only be carried out within limits that do not contradict the main task: returning the heavy cruiser "to its native land";

6. The merchant ships of the convoy that survived the attack by the heavy cruiser are captured using submarines deployed to carry out the operation, and, if possible, aircraft.

In fact, the same method is quite suitable for actions in the Mediterranean, if it is necessary to stop shipping between France or Italy and Africa. It is also quite efficient in the north, in the fight against Arctic convoys. Perhaps the only place where its use looks questionable is the Pacific Ocean, due to the enormous distances and the general specifics of military actions there.

For the reasons stated above, the tactics of using heavy cruisers to fight against communications had to be radically different from the tactics of ocean raids in World War I. What kind of heavy cruiser should it be to successfully implement the tactics of fighting convoys during World War II?

Продолжение следует ...
103 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. + 10
    14 March 2025 04: 34
    Hello, deeply respected Andrey!
    Thank you very much for the article, reading it gave me a break. At the same time I took a course in educational program :-)
    It is written in a very interesting and exciting way.
    1. +7
      14 March 2025 08: 16
      Hello, dear colleague!
      Thank you for your kind review. I am very glad that you found something new for yourself in my article. hi
  2. + 13
    14 March 2025 06: 52
    What kind of heavy cruiser should it be to successfully implement anti-convoy tactics during World War II?

    Numerous. First and foremost. The failures of England's opponents at sea were caused primarily by the fact that the English could afford to take risks.
    The loss of any English ship was not a catastrophe for England. "She still has some."
    Everything else goes like a locomotive. And the refinement of tactics, and the constructive perfection, and the trained personnel, and the well-coordinated units, and the desperate commanders.
    The reason for all these undoubted advantages of the Royal Navy is its large numbers and, accordingly, the lack of need to fuss over each steamship as if it were a written bag. For the enemies of Great Britain, the loss of any large ship was irreparable.
    This was especially evident in the Mediterranean, where, no matter what was said about them, the very perfect Italian battleships and cruisers ran away from the British at full speed when they encountered them, and the small ships fought to the last, showing miracles of bravery.
    In general, strength breaks straw.
    P.S. Thanks to the respected author for another series of interesting articles. I look forward to the continuation.
    1. +8
      14 March 2025 08: 19
      Quote: Grossvater
      Numerous.

      Of course, this is a very important factor. You rightly note that mass participation gives both professionalism and
      Quote: Grossvater
      the absence of the need to rush around with each steamer as if it were a written bag.

      It is possible to fight against England with a relatively small number of heavy cruisers plus long-range reconnaissance ships, submarines and auxiliary cruisers. Quite effectively (although of course such forces will not give victory, but will distract forces and cause serious damage). But for this it is necessary to not spare the ships at your disposal and take reasonable risks. And sometimes unreasonable ones:)))))
  3. +8
    14 March 2025 06: 56
    Thank you very much, Andrey, for continuing!
    The way you described the attacks on convoys leaves the impression that you do not really distinguish between "free hunting" in the open ocean (the actions of Admiral Graf Spee) and "convoy battles" in cramped areas (Operation Regenbogen).
    In fact, the destruction of convoys HX-84 and SLS-64 shows that a heavy cruiser can handle it, but an attack on convoy WS-5A with a cruiser escort cannot.
    As for such operations as the destruction of PQ-17, "Regenbogen" or the Second Battle of the Gulf of Sirte on 22.03.1942, they cannot be classified as raider operations. They rather hint at the role of battlecruisers and combined action in attacking heavily guarded convoys in conditions of constrained maneuvering. But that is a completely different topic.
    And so - VERY interesting. In the meantime, I have practically formed the image of a cruiser-raider for attacking protected and not so protected convoys in the vastness of the Atlantic and Indian Ocean.
    1. +4
      14 March 2025 08: 22
      Good morning, dear Victor!
      Glad you liked it hi
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      leaves the impression that you don't particularly share the "free hunt" in the ocean expanses

      Absolutely right. Auxiliary cruisers can handle this just as well, but with less risk and expense.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      As for operations such as the destruction of PQ-17, "Regenbogen" or the Second Battle of Sirte Gulf on March 22.03.1942, XNUMX, they cannot be classified as raider operations.

      This is more a question of definitions. I consider any operations of surface ships against enemy sea communications to be raider operations, but of course you have the right to give your own interpretations.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      In the meantime, the image of a cruiser-raider for attacking guarded and not so guarded convoys in the vastness of the Atlantic and Indian Ocean had practically taken shape.

      It will be interesting to see how much our views coincide:)
      1. -1
        20 March 2025 22: 01
        In view of the above, I see the role of the heavy cruiser in the “anti-convoy” struggle on the communications of the Second World War not only and not so much in the destruction of merchant ships, but in destroying the escort and forcing the convoy to disperse. 

        Andrey, thank you for the interesting material.
        What do you think, wouldn't an "armored cruiser" be a good option for fighting convoys, or rather for protecting them? Something like the "Blyukher"? (Well, I like this ship! Even though I know about its unlucky fate, I can't help myself :-) )
        "Blücher" was slightly larger than "Deutschland" and smaller than "Hipper". At the same time, it was better armored. At the time of its appearance, it was the fastest in its weight class. If Germany or another country had continued to develop this class of ships, then their second generation would certainly have received a turbine power plant, a linear-elevated arrangement of the main battery turrets. Remove the medium-caliber artillery, the anti-mine artillery becomes universal 100-120 mm. Why not a raider? At least a single one, at least the flagship of a raider unit of 2-3 light cruisers?
        1. 0
          21 March 2025 18: 02
          Quote: Slug_BDMP
          If Germany or another country had continued to develop this class of ships, their second generation would certainly have received a turbine power plant and a linear-elevated arrangement of the main battery turrets.

          And she continued...
          Blücher -> Von der Tann> -> Moltke -> Seydlitz -> Derflinger> -> Mackensen -> Ersatz York.
          1. -1
            21 March 2025 22: 03
            Blucher - 15000 tons, Seidlitz - 25000, Mackensen - 30000 tons. Andrey's series is dedicated to the "Washington heavy cruisers". So I mean a ship with the dimensions and armament of a "Washington", but with the armor protection of a conventional "Blucher" or "Pisa"
            1. 0
              22 March 2025 12: 01
              Quote: Slug_BDMP
              That's what I mean: a ship with the dimensions and armament of a "Washington", but with the armor protection of a conventional "Blyukher" or "Pisa".

              The Zara type CRT will help you...
              1. -1
                22 March 2025 19: 13
                By the way, yes. "Zara" is probably the closest to the armored cruisers of the early 20th century. Although it does not reach the "Pisa" of 1905 in many ways.
                1. 0
                  22 March 2025 19: 17
                  Quote: Slug_BDMP
                  By the way, yes. "Zara" is probably the closest to the armored cruisers of the early 20th century.

                  Before the 1st London they were listed as "incrociatore corazzato" - "armored cruisers". :)
  4. +2
    14 March 2025 07: 49
    Off topic. But. Does anyone know if the monument to the BBO "Rusalka" still exists in Tallinn?
    1. +5
      14 March 2025 08: 23
      Quote: pin_code
      Does anyone know if the monument to the BBO "Rusalka" still exists in Tallinn?

      Where else would he go? "Who will put him in jail?! He's a monument!" (c)
      1. +4
        14 March 2025 12: 59
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Where else would he go? "Who will put him in jail?! He's a monument!" (c)

        They can demolish it following the example of Ukraine. They say that “derussification” and “decolonization” are on the march.
        It would be good to buy the monument from the Estonians and transport it to Russia.
  5. +1
    14 March 2025 08: 52
    What kind of heavy cruiser should it be to successfully implement anti-convoy tactics during World War II?

    If we look at the question "innovatively", then the best ship raider for intercepting convoys in the North Atlantic by 1939... would have been a light aircraft carrier with a couple of squadrons of fighter-bombers capable of attacking sea targets with 250-500 kg aerial bombs from a steep dive, and in low cloud cover, using heavy unguided rockets and masthead bombing tactics.

    The only question is that suitable carrier-based fighter-bombers, masthead bombing tactics and 298 mm Tiny Tim unguided rockets appeared only in the 1940s. :D
    1. +4
      14 March 2025 09: 13
      Quote: AlexanderA
      If we look at the question "innovatively", then the best ship for intercepting convoys in the North Atlantic by 1939... would have been a light aircraft carrier with a couple of squadrons of fighter-bombers.

      Which has already been discussed in previous topics, and it turned out that it is not the best
      1. 0
        15 March 2025 11: 59
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Which has already been discussed in previous topics, and it turned out that it is not the best

        Everything was determined by conditions. There were theaters and seasons for which, by the 1940s of the XNUMXth century, a "pirate" artillery cruiser, less dependent on weather and time of day, was better for a raider attack on an enemy convoy.

        There were theaters where the light aircraft carrier "pirate" was better suited to solve this same problem.

        In any case, the idea of ​​using a light aircraft carrier as a raider on enemy communications lay outside the centuries-old tradition of using artillery ships for this purpose. And in naval warfare, the traditional never easily gives up its roles to the innovative.
        1. 0
          15 March 2025 21: 16
          Quote: AlexanderA
          There were theaters where the light aircraft carrier "pirate" was better suited to solve this same problem.

          Alexander. The first mistake is that you perceive the fight on communications as simply sinking enemy transports, like a shooting gallery. But this was not so - first, according to the laws of those years, it was necessary to demand that the merchant stop, inspect it, find contraband, give people the opportunity to leave the ship and only then sink it, or capture it.
          Attention, question. What could an aircraft from an aircraft carrier do from this? The answer is nothing. From an aircraft you won't even be able to distinguish a neutral from a legitimate target. That is, an aircraft carrier as a means of combating communications initially violates the laws of war, and if you want to prepare for it in advance in this way, you are knowingly committing war crimes.
          Second mistake. You don't need
          Quote: AlexanderA
          light aircraft carrier with a pair of squadrons

          You need
          Quote: AlexanderA
          light aircraft carrier with a pair of squadrons

          Staffed with pilots trained at the level of the infamous Kido Butai. Because otherwise, the said pair of squadrons will be repelled by the escort with not so significant losses of the convoy ships. And sending the elite of carrier aviation to chase transports is, to put it mildly, a so-so idea
          1. 0
            15 March 2025 22: 29
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Alexander. The first mistake is that you perceive the fight on communications as simply sinking enemy transports, like a shooting gallery. But this was not so - first, according to the laws of those years, it was necessary to demand that the merchant stop, inspect it, find contraband, give people the opportunity to leave the ship and only then sink it, or capture it.
            Attention, question. What could an aircraft from an aircraft carrier do? The answer is nothing.

            Did the Kriegsmarine have plans for the Second World War to return for a long time to the courtesy that the Kaiser's navy had rejected during the First World War, with the monarch's permission, by switching to unrestricted submarine warfare?

            Have you heard of the concept of total war, which General Ludendorff kindly outlined in his book "Total War: The Way Out of the Positional Deadlock" in 1935? If Nazi Germany was planning a total war on land, then why can't I "erroneously" assume that Nazi Germany must have planned a total war at sea as well?

            At the same time, the problem of courtesy (in the sense of compliance with the Hague and Geneva Conventions) in war at sea could technically be solved for a corsair aircraft carrier. Amphibians or ship-based flying boats with inspection groups.

            The only question is that the transition to unrestricted warfare at sea was inevitable one way or another. In particular, after the expected introduction of the convoy system. To engage in the construction of a navy based on the expectation that the fleet would have to act according to the rules of prize law in the first months of military operations, and then abandon these rules, well, that's something.
            Staffed with pilots trained to the level of the infamous Kido Butai.

            You write as if only the Japanese knew how to train deck pilots for effective dive bombing of ships and vessels at sea.

            The issue is not really about pilots. There are deck aircraft suitable for performing dive bombing strikes with 250-500 kg bombs (with smaller caliber bombs, you can't really count on sinking an ocean vessel), and there will be pilots. If there are no such aircraft, there won't be any pilots.

            Thus, the issue of an aircraft carrier is also the issue of carrier-based aircraft for it. Having no experience in developing such aircraft by the 1930s, the Germans developed carrier-based versions of land-based machines, but were never able to test whether they succeeded... due to the lack of a ship with a flight deck in Germany for testing takeoffs and landings from this very flight deck. But they could have built something, even on Lake Constance, for example. Something no worse than the IX-81 Sable on Lake Michigan.
            Because otherwise the said pair of squadrons would be repelled by the escort with not so significant losses of the convoy ships.

            You agree with me that the convoy system is not compatible with the prize law and after the appearance of convoys it is already possible to "sink them all"?
            And sending the elite of carrier-based aviation to chase transports is, to put it mildly, a so-so idea.

            And send the "elite fighter aviation" to hunt for cars and horse-drawn transport, as well as infantry on the roads? The first fighter-bomber version of the Bf 109 was the Bf 109E-1/B.
            1. 0
              15 March 2025 23: 36
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Did the Kriegsmarine have plans for the Second World War to return for a long time to the courtesy that the Kaiser's navy had rejected during the First World War, with the monarch's permission, by switching to unrestricted submarine warfare?

              Of course. I'll tell you even more - the Kriegsmarine was not preparing to fight the English, they were given an enemy - France. And when it became clear that they would have to fight the English - at first they behaved quite like gentlemen while there was hope for peace with Britain.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              At the same time, the problem of courtesy (in the sense of compliance with the Hague and Geneva Conventions) in war at sea could technically be solved for a corsair aircraft carrier. Amphibians or ship-based flying boats with inspection groups.

              Actually, no - any vessel can easily claim that it did not see a signal from an aircraft to stop, and machine guns or small-caliber cannons cannot force a vessel to stop either. Not to mention the limitations of amphibious aircraft for takeoff and landing from the sea surface.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              The only question is that the transition to unrestricted warfare at sea was inevitable one way or another.

              If you have hindsight - then yes. If you don't have it, that Hitler had no intention of fighting England, he was counting on peace with it. If you remember that I am writing not only about the England-Germany confrontation, but also about others (France-Italy, etc.), then... You understand.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              You write as if only the Japanese knew how to train deck pilots for effective dive bombing of ships and vessels at sea.

              Who else? The British had good deck pilots, they were the elite and there weren't many of them, but you can't say they were distinguished by the coherence of their actions like the Japanese. The US - at first, they didn't particularly shine with the skill of their pilots. The Germans? They couldn't, their dive bombers weren't able to break convoys the way you want them to.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              There are deck aircraft suitable for carrying out dive bombing strikes with 250-500 kg bombs (with smaller caliber bombs, it is not very likely that they will sink an ocean-going vessel), and there will be pilots.

              The Germans had things. They weren't even close to being the ultimate weapon against convoy ships. Put some of those on the deck of your aircraft carrier - well, maybe they'll be able to handle a couple of ships in a day of assault.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              You agree with me that the convoy system is not compatible with the prize law and after the appearance of convoys it is already possible to "sink them all"?

              Well, actually, it’s not allowed:)))))) Another issue is that the escort ships immediately ran away, which gave the right to use weapons against them.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              And send the "elite fighter aviation" to hunt for cars and horse-drawn transport, as well as infantry on the roads?

              These were not elite, these were ordinary combat pilots.
              1. 0
                17 March 2025 01: 36
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Of course. I'll tell you even more - the Kriegsmarine was not preparing to fight the English, they were given an enemy - France. And when it became clear that they would have to fight the English - at first they behaved quite like gentlemen while there was hope for peace with Britain.

                Of course, I found authors who claim that courtesy only disappeared in 1940, but for example, Leon Pillar in his book "Submarine Warfare. Chronicle of Naval Battles. 1939-1945" notes that unlimited submarine warfare in the Atlantic became a fact already in November 1939:

                https://kartaslov.ru/книги/Леон_Пиллар_Подводная_война_Хроника_морских_сражений_1939-1945/2

                "On September 30th, an order was issued that the Prize Law Regulations were no longer in force in the western sea areas from Ireland to Great Britain, up to 15 degrees north latitude. The English called this area the Western Approaches.

                On October 17, the German Naval High Command gave its U-boat fleet a free hand, ordering it to attack any object identified as an enemy ship or vessel without warning. Two days later, it was decided that any vessel sailing along a route up to 20 degrees north latitude with darkened lights would be sunk. The exception still in force for freighters was lifted on November 17. They were allowed to be attacked if they could be clearly identified as enemy merchant ships. Hitler was afraid that a U-boat might torpedo an American vessel!

                Thus, in mid-November, unrestricted submarine warfare against British and French merchant shipping began.

                All the restrictions imposed by Hitler for political reasons were swept away by the whirlwind of events and the incessant pressure of Raeder and Dönitz, who, for their part, were forced to listen to the complaints of their boat commanders."

                If you have hindsight, then yes. If you don't have hindsight, then that Hitler had no intention of fighting England, he was counting on peace with it.

                One way or another, theoretical developments on the use of aircraft carriers in the "trade war" in the Atlantic began to appear among Hitler's admirals as early as the mid-1930s:

                https://litlife.club/books/158197/read?page=2

                "...And then, when the British are forced to involve heavy artillery ships in protecting their convoys, it will be the turn of aircraft carriers to support the actions of mixed strike groups of battleships, an aircraft carrier, cruisers and auxiliary vessels. Short-term independent actions by aircraft carriers on enemy communications, separated from their own battleships, were also envisaged."

                https://briz-spb.narod.ru/Articles/Flugzeugtrager1.html

                But this was later and at one time gave rise to the development of a whole series of projects for small aircraft carriers for the "trade war".
                Who else? The British had good carrier pilots, they were elite and there weren't many of them, but it's not like they were distinguished by the coherence of their actions like the Japanese

                I don't recall the British having a good carrier-based dive bomber or any serious success in bombing attacks on ships from a steep dive. The Fairey Barracuda was certainly not a good carrier-based dive bomber compared to the Yokosuka D4Y Suisei, and Operation Tungsten was only a partial success.

                Thus, everything rests on good, high-performance deck aircraft, and, accordingly, on carrier ships. And this is where the Germans were bad. But Germany knew how to train good dive bomber pilots, and in large quantities.

                In general, the Germans should have started working on aircraft carriers and carrier-based aviation earlier. And they should have started with small aircraft carriers, not with a 33-ton monster. Then certain successes of German small aircraft carriers in the "trade war" against the British during the Second World War would most likely have taken place. And if it doesn't, there's no point.
                The Germans had things. They weren't even close to being the ultimate weapon against convoy ships. Put some of those on the deck of your aircraft carrier - well, maybe they'll be able to handle a couple of ships in a day of assault.

                German "Stukas", my aircraft carrier. :) Actually, I was writing about a fighter-bomber. For example, did you know that the P-47 Thunderbolt could carry three 1000-pound bombs and was pretty good at dive-bombing, and the carrier-based F6F Hellcat could carry up to 4000 pounds of bomb load, including a 2000-pound bomb on a ventral bomb rack?

                Thus, if I could choose, I would choose first of all an airplane, not an aircraft carrier. And for combating merchant shipping, a carrier-based fighter-bomber with two 250 kg bombs on underwing mounts, or one 500 kg on a ventral trapeze that diverts a bomb dropped in a steep dive from the propeller blade sweep zone would be quite suitable.

                And an aircraft carrier... Well, any one at the price of a light cruiser and a cruiser propulsion plant would be perfect for raids against enemy merchant shipping. Of course, not in the extreme conditions of the polar night, but in the moderate latitudes of the same Atlantic.
                1. 0
                  17 March 2025 10: 41
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  I don't remember the British having a good carrier-based dive bomber, or any serious success in bombing attacks on ships from a steep dive.

                  He-he-he... actually, the RN is credited with the first large ship sunk by aircraft in general and dive bombers in particular. On 10.04.1940, the "Squaw" of the 800th and 803rd squadrons kicked the KRL "Königsberg". smile
                  1. 0
                    17 March 2025 17: 09
                    Of course it is, but by 1940 the Blackburn Skua Mk II could no longer be called modern, i.e. a good combat aircraft. Maximum speed 362 km/h, one 500 lb bomb. Well, that's it.

                    The Japanese had better performance on the Aichi D3A with fixed landing gear. The Germans had even better performance on the Ju 87C, again with fixed landing gear.
              2. 0
                17 March 2025 01: 43
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Of course. I'll tell you even more - the Kriegsmarine was not preparing to fight the English, they were given an enemy - France. And when it became clear that they would have to fight the English - at first they behaved quite like gentlemen while there was hope for peace with Britain.

                Of course, I found authors who claim that courtesy only disappeared in 1940, but for example, Leon Pillar in his book "Submarine Warfare. Chronicle of Naval Battles. 1939-1945" notes that unlimited submarine warfare in the Atlantic became a fact already in November 1939:

                https://kartaslov.ru/книги/Леон_Пиллар_Подводная_война_Хроника_морских_сражений_1939-1945/2

                "On September 30th, an order was issued that the Prize Law Regulations were no longer in force in the western sea areas from Ireland to Great Britain, up to 15 degrees north latitude. The English called this area the Western Approaches.

                On October 17, the German Naval High Command gave its U-boat fleet a free hand, ordering it to attack any object identified as an enemy ship or vessel without warning. Two days later, it was decided that any vessel sailing along a route up to 20 degrees north latitude with darkened lights would be sunk. The exception still in force for freighters was lifted on November 17. They were allowed to be attacked if they could be clearly identified as enemy merchant ships. Hitler was afraid that a U-boat might torpedo an American vessel!

                Thus, in mid-November, unrestricted submarine warfare against British and French merchant shipping began.

                All the restrictions imposed by Hitler for political reasons were swept away by the whirlwind of events and the incessant pressure of Raeder and Dönitz, who, for their part, were forced to listen to the complaints of their boat commanders."

                If you have hindsight, then yes. If you don't have hindsight, then that Hitler had no intention of fighting England, he was counting on peace with it.

                One way or another, theoretical developments on the use of aircraft carriers in the "trade war" in the Atlantic began to appear among Hitler's admirals as early as the mid-1930s:

                https://litlife.club/books/158197/read?page=2

                "...And then, when the British are forced to involve heavy artillery ships in protecting their convoys, it will be the turn of aircraft carriers to support the actions of mixed strike groups of battleships, an aircraft carrier, cruisers and auxiliary vessels. Short-term independent actions by aircraft carriers on enemy communications, separated from their own battleships, were also envisaged."

                https://briz-spb.narod.ru/Articles/Flugzeugtrager1.html

                "...But this was later and at one time caused the development of a whole series of projects for small aircraft carriers for the "trade war".
                Who else? The British had good carrier pilots, they were elite and there weren't many of them, but it's not like they were distinguished by the coherence of their actions like the Japanese

                I don't recall the British having a good carrier-based dive bomber or any serious success in bombing attacks on ships from a steep dive. The Fairey Barracuda was definitely not a good carrier-based dive bomber compared to the Yokosuka D4Y Suisei, and Operation Tungsten was only a partial success. Incidentally, this was also because: "The commander of HMS Victorious estimates that 85% of its aircrew had not previously participated in naval operations."

                Thus, everything rests on good, high-performance deck aircraft, and, accordingly, on carrier ships. And this is where the Germans were bad. But Germany knew how to train good dive bomber pilots, and in large quantities.

                In general, the Germans should have started working on aircraft carriers and carrier-based aviation earlier. And they should have started with small aircraft carriers, not with a 33-ton monster. Then certain successes of German small aircraft carriers in the "trade war" against the British during the Second World War would most likely have taken place. And if not, then there is no trial.
                The Germans had things. They weren't even close to being the ultimate weapon against convoy ships. Put some of those on the deck of your aircraft carrier - well, maybe they'll be able to handle a couple of ships in a day of assault.

                German Stukas, my aircraft carrier. :)

                I was actually writing about a fighter-bomber. For example, did you know that the P-47 Thunderbolt could carry three 1000 pound bombs and was pretty good at dive-bombing, and the carrier-based F6F Hellcat could carry up to 4000 pounds of bombs, including a 2000 pound bomb on a ventral bomb rack?

                Thus, if I could choose, I would choose first of all an airplane, not an aircraft carrier. And for combating merchant shipping, a carrier-based fighter-bomber with two 250 kg bombs on underwing mounts, or one 500 kg on a ventral trapeze that diverts a bomb dropped in a steep dive from the propeller blade sweep zone would be quite suitable.

                And an aircraft carrier... Well, any one at the price of a light cruiser and a cruiser propulsion plant would be perfect for raids against enemy merchant shipping. Of course, not in the extreme conditions of the polar night, but in the moderate latitudes of the same North Atlantic.
            2. 0
              16 March 2025 12: 05
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Did the Kriegsmarine have plans for the Second World War to return for a long time to the courtesy that the Kaiser's navy had rejected during the First World War, with the monarch's permission, by switching to unrestricted submarine warfare?

              You'll laugh, but yes.
              Before going to sea in August 39, the commanders of the Spee and Deutschland received a 30-page document, "Seekriegsrechtliches merkblatt fur die Kommandanten von Hilfskriegsschiffen", which stated that military operations must be conducted in accordance with prize law and the requirements of the Hague Convention of 1907.
              Or do you think that Langsdorff took prisoners with him out of altruistic motives?
              1. 0
                17 March 2025 00: 23
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                You'll laugh, but yes.

                I found with interest that several dates are given for the Kriegsmarine's transition to unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic. The earliest, November 1939:

                https://kartaslov.ru/книги/Леон_Пиллар_Подводная_война_Хроника_морских_сражений_1939-1945/2

                "Admiral Raeder tried everything possible to achieve the abolition of all restrictions that hampered submarine warfare. His efforts were successful: from September 30, submarine warfare was freed from the framework of the Prize Law Regulations. During the First World War, a corresponding decision was made only 29 months after the outbreak of the war. On September 23, Hitler authorized his submarines to torpedo any merchant ship that used on-board transmitters to transmit any messages during the attack.

                Since the British Government also gave corresponding orders to its courts, a significant step was taken towards the outbreak of total war.

                In the following days, the order not to attack French warships was rescinded. On September 30, an order was issued that the Prize Law Regulations were no longer in force in the western sea areas from Ireland to Great Britain, up to 15 degrees north latitude. The English called this area the Western Approaches.

                On October 17, the German Naval High Command gave its U-boat fleet a free hand, ordering it to attack any object identified as an enemy ship or vessel without warning. Two days later, it was decided that any vessel sailing along a route up to 20 degrees north latitude with darkened lights would be sunk. The exception still in force for freighters was lifted on November 17. They were allowed to be attacked if they could be clearly identified as enemy merchant ships. Hitler was afraid that a U-boat might torpedo an American vessel!

                Thus, in mid-November, unrestricted submarine warfare began against British and French merchant shipping.a.

                All the restrictions imposed by Hitler for political reasons were swept away by the whirlwind of events and the continuous pressure of Raeder and Dönitz, who, for their part, were forced to listen to the complaints of their boat commanders.."


                Well, actually, the Kriegsmarine did have some ideas about using aircraft carriers in a “trade war”.

                https://litlife.club/books/158197/read?page=2

                "With the thoroughness and penchant for order (ordnung!) typical of the Germans, they divided the entire path to achieving their goal into several parts. At the initial stage, it was planned to use single raiders (camouflaged armed merchant ships, "pocket battleships" and submarines) in order to force the enemy to introduce convoys and, accordingly, significantly reduce trade turnover, while diverting significant naval forces to escorting ships. At this stage, it was planned to use Kriegsmarine battleships to attack Atlantic convoys. And then, when the British are forced to involve heavy artillery ships in protecting their convoys, it will be the turn of aircraft carriers, supporting the actions of mixed strike groups of battleships, an aircraft carrier, cruisers and auxiliary vessels. It was also envisaged that aircraft carriers would conduct short-term independent operations on enemy communications, separated from their own linear forces."

                Later, Germany even considered projects for small aircraft carriers for a "trade war":

                https://briz-spb.narod.ru/Articles/Flugzeugtrager1.html

                "Already during the war, when the Kriegsmarine conducted combat operations on the Atlantic communications with entire groups of battleships and cruisers, German admirals admitted that one could only welcome the inclusion of an aircraft carrier in such a formation. But this was later and at one time caused the development of a whole series of projects of small aircraft carriers for the "trade war". And for the mid-30s, 203-mm artillery in the German aircraft carrier project did not receive any official, serious justification."

                But, as they say, a spoon is dear to the dinner table. The large aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin was never commissioned. The small aircraft carriers of the Kriegsmarine never saw the light of day either.
    2. +2
      14 March 2025 10: 00
      Quote: AlexanderA
      If we look at the question of "innovative
      The Germans had a similar idea, one might say, when they created their "Graf Zeppelin", in addition to 60 aircraft, the aircraft carrier was supposed to be armed with 203 mm guns (later they settled on 150 mm), with a maximum speed of 35 knots. It is difficult to say whether the "Graf Zeppelin" could have become an aircraft carrier-raider, but most likely, it would not have made any difference, given the realities that existed at sea, Doenitz's submarines were the best means of combat. Here it is better to imagine what would have happened if the XXI series boat had appeared earlier. As for heavy cruisers, their use against convoys could have had only temporary success, given the total superiority of the British surface fleet.
      1. +4
        14 March 2025 10: 56
        Quote: Per se.
        As for heavy cruisers, their use against convoys could only have temporary success, given the total superiority of the British surface fleet.

        More precisely, until they caught the German TKRs. But before that moment they could have sucked a lot of blood from the British, fully recouping the costs of their creation and much more.
      2. +1
        15 March 2025 12: 16
        Since the Germans had no carrier experience by the 1930s, they should have started with light carriers, not the heavy squadron carrier Graf Zeppelin. The price of mistakes is cheaper.

        Moreover, they would have had time to put it into operation, unlike the unfinished "Graf". However, the Nazis did exactly the opposite:

        https://briz-spb.narod.ru/Articles/Flugzeugtrager1.html

        "...But that was later and in its time has prompted the development of a number of small aircraft carrier projects for the "trade war". And for the mid-30s, the 203-mm artillery in the German aircraft carrier project did not receive any official, serious justification. Perhaps "the secret was simple," and its appearance in the project was the result of a complete lack of practical experience in designing aircraft carriers, coupled with the desire to get "something big and powerful."
  6. +6
    14 March 2025 09: 29
    But what was the strategic significance of these raids for the course of the war? Only 8 raids, while the total number of convoys conducted (even counting only the Atlantic and northern ones, even without taking into account the coastal ones) was in the hundreds. Unlike the anti-convoy operations of submarines (which were finally broken in May 1943), the anti-convoy operations of surface ships lacked the most important thing - systematic. It would have come in very handy in the same May of 1943, when it was possible to assign the surface raiders the task of destroying the allied anti-submarine forces. The aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin could also have come in handy there - for the same purpose. But by that time, the German surface ships no longer dared to do such a thing. Attempts to take away supremacy at sea were finally abandoned - the outcome of the war was predetermined.
    1. +5
      14 March 2025 10: 55
      Quote: Pushkowed
      But what was the strategic significance of these raids for the course of the war?

      Not high. But this shows that the Germans used their TKRs incorrectly, and not that TKRs are not needed in principle.
      Quote: Pushkowed
      Unlike anti-convoy operations by submarines (which were eventually broken in May 1943), anti-convoy operations by surface ships lacked the most important thing - systemicity.

      Golden words. I have nothing to add:)
  7. +4
    14 March 2025 10: 29
    Thank you very much for continuing the topic! Very interesting!
    Can Tirpitz's interception of PQ17 be considered an example of such successful actions?
    The convoy is scattered and is being dealt with by aircraft and submarines
    1. +5
      14 March 2025 10: 53
      Hello Dmitry! drinks
      Quote: Trapper7
      Can Tirpitz's interception of PQ17 be considered an example of such successful actions?

      As for me - definitely
    2. +5
      14 March 2025 12: 18
      Between the Atlantic and Polar convoys there is heaven and earth. The Polar ones passed close to the enemy coast.
    3. 0
      14 March 2025 22: 35
      Can Tirpitz's interception of PQ17 be considered an example of such successful actions?

      By the time the German squadron with Tirpitz set out to sea, the convoy had already dispersed.
      The convoy dispersed on the evening of July 4, the German squadron left the Altafjord only on July 5 at around 15:00, and by 21:30 the German ships received orders to return to their bases in Norway.
  8. 0
    14 March 2025 12: 20
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    IMHO a heavy cruiser is not the type of ship that should be used for raiding operations.
    I explain why.
    1. The enemy has an advantage in reconnaissance and detection. It is possible to pass unnoticed only by a miracle or in some remote areas of the ocean.
    2. The enemy has a lot of its own cruisers, a meeting with which can end in damage and then destruction.
    3. The enemy has larger, faster ships and aircraft carriers, meeting which leaves no chance.
    1. +6
      14 March 2025 12: 28
      Good afternoon, Alexey!
      Quote: rytik32
      1. The enemy has an advantage in reconnaissance and detection. It is possible to pass unnoticed only by a miracle or in some remote areas of the ocean.

      The practice of real exits, which I cite in the article, does not confirm this thesis. It was possible to stop the TKR at the exit stage only in 1 case out of 6, and to detect it in two cases out of 6
      Quote: rytik32
      2. The enemy has a lot of its own cruisers, a meeting with which can end in damage and then destruction.

      Or maybe it won't end, and often it didn't end. Hipper's meeting with Berwick, for example. Damage is not equal to death, which is shown by the New Year's fight.
      Quote: rytik32
      3. The enemy has larger, faster ships and aircraft carriers, meeting which leaves no chance.

      Larger ships are also slower (pickpockets are a different story, we are talking about classic heavy cruisers), it is also very difficult for an aircraft carrier to intercept a heavy cruiser - in reality it did not work out very well
      1. +1
        14 March 2025 13: 05
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Practice of real exits

        ... suggests that there were almost no such exits.
        In 1943, total control over key areas of the ocean was established
        Even blockade breakers rarely went unnoticed
        https://vk.com/wall-17280747_65958
        Damage is not equal to death, as the New Year's fight shows

        New Year's battle is an action near your bases, the task is not exactly raider, although against a convoy
        1. +2
          14 March 2025 14: 36
          Quote: rytik32
          ... suggests that there were almost no such exits.

          6 Atlantic exits during combat operations. Several exits to the North Sea (Norway). Quite enough for statistics.
          Quote: rytik32
          In 1943, total control over key areas of the ocean was established

          We still had to live until 1943 - the war began in 1939.
          Quote: rytik32
          https://vk.com/wall-17280747_65958

          The order of forces for a blockade breaker and a heavy cruiser are not the same thing
          Quote: rytik32
          New Year's battle is an action near your bases, the task is not exactly raider, although against a convoy

          This is the task of interrupting communications that I am considering. And it was relevant not only for actions against Britain and not only in the Atlantic. The fact is that the British did not have enough cruisers to reliably cover the convoys - cover was provided by the KRL, which was not a very good solution against the German KRTs.
          1. 0
            14 March 2025 14: 50
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The British did not have enough cruisers to reliably cover the convoys

            And the Germans did not have enough raiders to interrupt shipping in the Atlantic in any noticeable way. If we are talking about 1939-41
            Well, after that, going out into the Atlantic became almost equal to suicide.
            1. +3
              14 March 2025 15: 32
              Quote: rytik32
              But the Germans did not have enough raiders to interrupt shipping in the Atlantic in any noticeable way.

              In general, there were enough, but they did not use them intensively.
              Quote: rytik32
              Well, after that, going out into the Atlantic became almost equal to suicide.

              In '42?:)))) No. On the contrary, it was a happy time for the Kriegsmarine. In '43, some problems could have arisen.
              1. 0
                14 March 2025 20: 18
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                In 42?:)))) No. On the contrary, it was a happy time for the Kriegsmarine.

                For submariners - undoubtedly...
                For surface ships, only the polar theatre remained.
                1. 0
                  14 March 2025 21: 23
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  For surface ships, only the polar theater remained

                  Please justify this thesis in a little more detail.
                  1. 0
                    14 March 2025 21: 44
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Please justify this thesis in a little more detail.

                    I would like to remind you that on December 11, 1941, Germany declared war on the United States, which means that the American Atlantic Fleet began to take part in operations in the Atlantic.
                    The composition for December '41 can be viewed here.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Fleet_Forces_Command
                    1. +1
                      14 March 2025 22: 26
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      that is, the American Atlantic Fleet began to take part in operations in the Atlantic.

                      Yes, of course.
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      The composition for December '41 can be viewed here.

                      In terms of combating heavy cruisers, it probably looks weaker than the French fleet, while it was still fighting on the side of the British. At least the latter had closer bases. Aircraft carriers, yes, but after Pearl Harbor you couldn't count on them anymore.
                      1. 0
                        14 March 2025 22: 31
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        From the point of view of fighting against heavy cruisers, it looks, perhaps, weaker than the French fleet, while it was still fighting on the side of the British.

                        Unlike the French, the entire fleet was in the Atlantic.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Aircraft carriers, yes, but after Pearl Harbor they could no longer be relied upon.

                        Why do you think aircraft carriers are some kind of panacea?

                        And another question: if everything was fine, then why did the Germans stop planning operations in the Atlantic after the US entered the war and actually withdraw their surface fleet from this theater of operations?
                      2. +1
                        14 March 2025 22: 39
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Why do you think aircraft carriers are some kind of panacea?

                        I don't think they are a panacea, but I don't deny their considerable usefulness in the fight against surface raiders. Actually, in the neighboring comments you reproach me for underestimating the role of aircraft carriers in searching for raiders. This is... interesting.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        And another question: if everything was fine, then why did the Germans stop planning operations in the Atlantic after the US entered the war?

                        Yes, for the same reason that the New Year's battle ended in such a fiasco - a pathological fear of losses. That is if these two events are connected at all - after all, the death of Bismarck clearly discouraged them from conducting Atlantic raids.
                        In general, the Germans' fear of the US helping the British at sea and the US's real ability to provide this help are two very different things, as they like to say in Odessa.
                      3. -1
                        14 March 2025 22: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Actually, in the neighboring comments you reproach me for underestimating the role of aircraft carriers in searching for raiders.

                        Andrey, no need to distort things...
                        I was responding to your next remark.
                        It took a long time for the AV to be brought in to intercept the same Bismarck
                        , in which you somewhat distort the facts...
                      4. +1
                        14 March 2025 23: 01
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Andrey, no need to distort things.

                        Seriously?;)))) So I'm exaggerating?
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I was responding to your next remark.

                        And here is another answer from you. To another remark.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If you take a spherical horse in a vacuum, then "Mikuma" will not agree with you. :)
                      5. +3
                        14 March 2025 23: 07
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And here is another answer from you. To another remark.

                        I get it... Talking down the opponent has turned into pestering the opponent. :)
                        The morning is wiser than the evening...
                      6. +1
                        14 March 2025 23: 16
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        got it... Talking down the opponent turned into pestering the opponent

                        On your part, please note. If I say that AVs do not guarantee the interception of TKRs - you write that I am wrong. If I write that in principle they can do this and are dangerous in this capacity - Maxim is again against it.
                      7. 0
                        14 March 2025 22: 57
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        After all, the death of Bismarck clearly discouraged them from conducting Atlantic raids.

                        Let me put it this way: if you don’t know about German plans for raids in the Atlantic for the second half of 2, that doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen...
                      8. +1
                        14 March 2025 22: 59
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If you don't know about the German plans for raids in the Atlantic in the second half of 2, it doesn't mean that they didn't happen

                        I will say this - not all plans are made with the purpose of their implementation. Many military plans are made just in case. And yes, you have again evaded the answer, transferring to a secondary thesis and saying nothing on the essence of the main one
                      9. -1
                        14 March 2025 23: 03
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I will say this - not all plans are made with the purpose of their implementation. Many military plans are made just in case.

                        OK... Let's write it down like this: the staff officers of the West Group had nothing to do and they were busy with all sorts of handicrafts, and then the operational department of the SKL did the same...
                        The facts again do not match the theory, but let it be as you wish.
                      10. +2
                        14 March 2025 23: 13
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        OK... Let's write it down like that, the West Group staff had nothing to do.

                        Was anyone going to implement Zeeleve? No. Was anyone going to implement the 130 kiloton battleship project? No. Was anyone seriously going to implement Operation Panther to bypass Moscow? No.
                        And the Germans in the case you recommended were preparing plans in case a decision was made, so that the plan would be at hand. Or, I repeat, they really did postpone the plans because the US entered the war, but it is highly doubtful that they had any real reason to do so. As I said, being afraid of the Americans is one thing, and the real ability of the US to intercept German raiders is something completely different. The fact that the Germans were afraid of fighting 2 heavy cruisers against 2 light cruisers does not mean that 2 light cruisers are stronger. The fact that the Germans were afraid of the Americans in the Atlantic does not mean that the US was really scary there.
                      11. 0
                        15 March 2025 13: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Was anyone going to implement Zeeleve? No.

                        Read General Halder's diary for July-August 40, there is a lot of interesting information on this topic.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Was anyone planning to implement a 130 kiloton battleship project? No.

                        Everything that was done after the project known to us as the H-39 (H-41 and beyond) was purely theoretical work on creating an "absolute battleship", this is clear at least from the fact that none of these battleships could be based in existing bases...
                        In the practical field, the Germans continued to adjust the H-39 project, taking into account the realities of the war and the cancellation of construction in 42.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        As I said, being afraid of the Americans is one thing, but the real ability of the US to intercept German raiders is something completely different.

                        The question here is not about the ability to intercept - the question is about the ability to find: the search and reconnaissance potential of the allies in the Atlantic has grown many times over.
                      12. 0
                        15 March 2025 16: 04
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Read General Halder's diary for July-August 40, there is a lot of interesting information on this topic.

                        Maxim, I have read Halder, Tippelskirch, Manstein, Guderian and many others to know that no one in the Wehrmacht or the Kriegsmarine wanted to get involved in Seelewe. I think you know this very well, and you argue simply out of habit.
                        I think you also know about the military's desire to have a plan just in case. Operation Felix, Operation Isabella... But in the end, the Germans never invaded Spain.
                      13. 0
                        15 March 2025 16: 25
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No one in the Wehrmacht or the Kriegsmarine wanted to get involved in Seelewe.

                        They didn't want to, but they set the date.
                        If the Artist had said "Vorwärts!.." on September 20th, what would these "unwilling" people have done? Would they have started a rebellion? :)
                        But that's another story...
                      14. 0
                        15 March 2025 16: 54
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If the Artist had said "Vorwärts!.." on September 20th, what would these "non-wants" have done?

                        This is every military man's worst nightmare - an order has been received, but there is no plan. Hence the natural desire to have a plan in reserve, even if you don't want to carry it out at all.
                        Therefore, the mere existence of a plan does not mean that those who planned it are striving to implement it.
                      15. 0
                        15 March 2025 17: 06
                        No matter how you look at it, everyone will stick to their own opinion... laughing

                        I propose a truce until the next fight. drinks
                      16. 0
                        15 March 2025 19: 50
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        I propose a truce until the next fight.

                        Accepted. It was nice to argue! laughing drinks
                    2. +1
                      17 March 2025 10: 52
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      I would like to remind you that on December 11, 1941, Germany declared war on the United States, which means that the American Atlantic Fleet began to take part in operations in the Atlantic.

                      There is one subtle point with the USN Atlantic Fleet - you need to look not only at the ship composition, but also at the dates of commissioning of the ships. Almost all the new "big pots" of the Atlantic Fleet underwent combat training and coordination on it. At the same time, all sorts of things happened - like the "self-shooting" of the battleship "Massachusetts", which in the battle at Casablanca, the concussions from the salvos of its own main battery disabled all its electrics.
                      That is, the maximum possible for new ships is to attack in a crowd. smile
                      1. 0
                        17 March 2025 17: 42
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        There is one subtlety with the USN Atlantic Fleet - you need to look not only at the ship composition, but also at the dates of commissioning of the ships.

                        There is such a thing.
                        But the main backbone of the fleet was still made up of old ships.
      2. +2
        14 March 2025 20: 16
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Damage is also not equal to death, as the New Year's fight shows.

        You see, Yura...(c)
        The Hipper was able to crawl away at 15 knots because Barnett spotted the Lutzow.
        If there was only one "Hipper", he would most likely get slippers... white ones.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It is also very difficult for an aircraft carrier to intercept a heavy cruiser - in reality it did not work out very well

        If you take a spherical horse in a vacuum, then "Mikuma" will not agree with you. :)
        1. +1
          14 March 2025 21: 22
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          The Hipper was able to crawl away at 15 knots because Barnett spotted the Lutzow.

          And this happened because the Germans quite logically sent superior forces to intercept them - and they were right.
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          If there was only one "Hipper", most likely he would have received slippers... white ones

          Or not. I seriously doubt the ability of 6-inch cruisers to kick Hipper, unless we are talking about a night fight at point-blank range.
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          "Mikuma" will not agree with you. :)

          No one argues that a heavy cruiser can be sunk by carrier-based aircraft. But this has happened very infrequently compared to the number of times heavy cruisers have gone to sea.
          1. 0
            14 March 2025 21: 35
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And this happened because the Germans quite logically sent superior forces to intercept them - and they were right.

            This was the plan of the operation. But despite this, the Germans were very interested in the location of the British cruisers and the operation began when, according to intelligence, they were in Murmansk and would not have made it to the battlefield under any circumstances.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I seriously doubt the ability of 6-inch cruisers to kick Hipper, unless we are talking about a night fight at point-blank range.

            IMHA vs IMHI... The eternal dispute. :)
            1. +1
              14 March 2025 22: 19
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              This was the plan of the operation.

              And it worked in terms of the superiority of German forces - 2 TKR against a pair of KRL. This was not an accidental, but a deliberate German action, so I have no reason to consider a hypothetical battle of a lone Hipper against two KRLs.
              1. 0
                14 March 2025 22: 27
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And it worked in terms of the superiority of German forces - 2 TKR against a pair of KRL.

                Let me repeat once again: Barnett's cruisers should not have been there.
                Conventionally, they were in the plan of the operation in the form of a footnote on the last page."
                That is why the Hipper was leisurely exchanging fire with the escort destroyers, while the Lützow was doing what it was doing.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This was not an accidental but a deliberate German action.

                Naturally, it was consciously understood that the go-ahead for the operation was given after intelligence confirmed that the Sheffield and Jamaica were anchored in Murmansk and would not make it to the battle area.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                so I have no reason to consider a hypothetical battle of a lone Hipper against two KRLs

                Actually, the original message was different, but never mind. :)
                1. +1
                  14 March 2025 22: 44
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  Actually, the original message was different, but never mind. :)

                  I'm sorry, but I'm not always able to keep up with your thoughts:) You may have noticed that we think a little differently, and what is obvious to you is sometimes not so to me
                  1. +1
                    14 March 2025 22: 48
                    Above you wrote that
                    Damage is also not equal to death, as the New Year's fight shows.

                    Given the composition of the German squadron, the Hipper had a significantly greater chance of escaping than a single ship.
                    1. +2
                      14 March 2025 22: 55
                      If the operation to destroy a convoy is planned correctly, it should be attacked with superior forces. Therefore, sending a single heavy cruiser against two light cruisers with additions is already a mistake. The Germans were not even ready for a battle of two heavy cruisers against two light cruisers.
                      That's why I absolutely don't understand the essence of your objection. The Germans planned the operation well, they were afraid to fight a decisive battle with the British, and Hipper, by an unfortunate coincidence for the Germans, got an unexpected beating. But he still left. That's why I write that damage is not equal to death.
  9. +3
    14 March 2025 12: 24
    +++ Interesting topic and well written!
    What kind of heavy cruiser should it be to successfully implement anti-convoy tactics during World War II?

    Very interesting, we are waiting. Are you talking about German ones? In my opinion - the same VI or a little more; armament is almost like the Deutschlands, 6 or 4x280mm in two turrets, but 150mm in 2x3 elevated turrets in the bow and stern (against transports and destroyers); the same 105mm anti-aircraft guns on the sides and 37mm...
    Power - three shafts, high speed on the middle one steam engine (and not diesel)), the exhaust steam from it into special turbogenerators. On the outer shafts - full speed TZA, at cruising speed the shafts are turned by small electric motors (or install a VSP)
    And of course seaplanes, radars, and maybe even a tethered aerostat... laughing
    1. +2
      14 March 2025 13: 40
      I agree with you, because you described almost a "sweet couple" Gneisenau/Scharnhorst! But considering the hindsight, I would suggest the main caliber of 8*305-mm in three turrets (to counter American and English battlecruisers) and 24*120-mm universal guns in twin turrets (instead of 12*150-mm and 14*105-mm). I assume that the Author will agree with us in a future article! drinks
      1. 0
        14 March 2025 14: 47
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        "sweet couple" Gneisenau/Scharnhorst! But considering the hindsight, I would suggest the main caliber of 8*305-mm in three turrets (to counter the battlecruisers of the Americans and the English)
      2. 0
        14 March 2025 15: 29
        I agree with you, because you described almost a "sweet couple" Gneisenau/Scharnhorst!

        Thanks, but I meant the Scheer's armament in the displacement and speed of the Hyper (17kt or slightly more), but with turbines, longer range and 150mm in elevated turrets.
        to counter the battlecruisers of the Americans and the English

        And what kind of line cruisers did they have? Hood, two and that's it)) And their speed and that of the Wells are lower.
    2. +1
      14 March 2025 13: 58
      Well, the armament can be varied somewhat, but in principle, the approach is sound!
      Now with the power plant - a complete wonderland! A steam engine (any) loses to a diesel. And if on historically justified steam parameters, then - twice. So it is advisable to connect a group of diesels with disengaging clutches to the central shaft with a variable pitch propeller, and to use cruising steam turbines with disconnectable clutches and cruise GTZA on the outer shafts. At an economical speed, cruising turbines create a minimum thrust, and the main thrust is created by the central shaft.
      1. +2
        14 March 2025 15: 47
        A steam engine (any) is inferior to a diesel engine.

        P. turbine too but... The efficiency of the p. machine does not depend on the revolutions, for a diesel it also depends weakly.
        But the combination with a diesel engine like on the KRL didn't work out for the Germans, maybe the steam parameters let them down. But a two-shaft with cruising turbines and disconnectable full-speed turbines is also possible. The problem there is in the different required propeller speeds, which is solved by a separate gearbox for the cruising turbines or a variable-speed pitch propeller, but...
        In general, I am not an expert in this matter, just a "thinking layman"))
    3. +2
      14 March 2025 20: 22
      Quote: anzar
      In my opinion - the same VI or a little more; armament almost like the Deutschlands, 6 or 4x280mm in two turrets, but 150mm in 2x3 elevated turrets in the bow and stern (against transports and destroyers); the same 105mm anti-aircraft guns on the sides and 37mm...

      Kreuzer P welcomes you...
    4. 0
      14 March 2025 21: 43
      How about this?
      4 457 mm (option 6 406 mm), aviation. Yes, the ship will be big and powerful, but this is, so to speak, the pinnacle of raider thought - and to guide submarines, and to overcome cruisers, and to reach an aircraft carrier
      1. +1
        14 March 2025 21: 45
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        How about this?

        The firm was not called "Gibbs and" for nothing. COKE"...
        1. +1
          15 March 2025 07: 12
          It was not for nothing that the company was called "Gibbs and COX".

          This company is still thriving today.
          If you find the consonance of the name funny, and if your first association is not with coal, but with other substances, then "Doctor, where did you get such pictures?"
          1. 0
            15 March 2025 13: 18
            Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
            then "Doctor, where did you get such pictures?"

            The pictures are really funny, and that's what makes you think about different potent substances with specific properties. wassat
  10. +2
    14 March 2025 13: 03
    In view of the above, I see the role of the heavy cruiser in the “anti-convoy” struggle on the communications of the Second World War not only and not so much in the destruction of merchant ships, but in destroying the escort and forcing the convoy to disperse.

    In the conditions of the Second World War, a cruiser-raider could have a chance of success only in bad weather, which excludes the use of aviation. But in these conditions, the convoy escort will not notice the raider in time and the convoy will not be disbanded.
    1. +4
      14 March 2025 14: 38
      Quote: Kostadinov
      In the conditions of the Second World War, a cruiser-raider could have a chance of success only in bad weather, which excluded the use of aviation.

      Aviation is very limited in its range, as well as in the number of aircraft. It took a long time for aircraft to be brought in to intercept the Bismarck.
      1. 0
        14 March 2025 20: 26
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Aviation is very limited in its range, as well as in the number of aircraft. It took a long time for aircraft to be brought in to intercept the Bismarck.

        Victorious, as part of the Home Fleet, set out to sea at 22:45 on 22 May, just under XNUMX hours before Bismarck was discovered in the Denmark Strait.
        Or, according to your "Victories", it was necessary to go out to sea on the evening of the 21st and go bomb Grimstadfjord?
        1. +1
          14 March 2025 21: 14
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          Victorious, as part of the Home Fleet, set out to sea at 22:45 on 22 May,

          And it played no role in the interception. That's what I'm writing about. It was much later that carrier-based aviation managed to reach Bismarck.
  11. 0
    14 March 2025 15: 29
    In general, the idea of ​​raiders has become promising to some extent even now.
    Why? Because "Rockets leveled everyone."
    The thing is that to sink a large supply ship, either a series of small damages or one large one are needed. But then it would be necessary to use artillery and approach at a distance of less than 20 km. It is possible to get by with torpedoes, but then it would be necessary to approach even closer.
    The raider of those years was itself bound by the need to approach within line of sight (to be fair, this was true for everyone back then).

    With missiles, it becomes possible to attack ships at a distance of 300 km. And missiles do not take up as much space as a large gun with a loading system and arsenal. The main condition is that the ship, in addition to being highly seaworthy, should also be incredibly fast.
  12. 0
    14 March 2025 18: 07
    The best ship would be Deutschland with a thicker armor belt, a boiler plant on the inner shafts with 50 hp and replacement of 000 deck 8 mm with twin 150 mm. Or even install them in a diamond pattern.
    1. +1
      15 March 2025 13: 29
      Quote: clou
      The best ship would be the Deutschland

      All these "so-called battleships" were doomed because of their obviously insufficient speed. All British cruisers had a standard speed of 32 knots, and the Germans knew it. The Deutschlands with their 28 knots obviously could neither catch up with nor escape from a British cruiser.
      1. +2
        15 March 2025 13: 37
        Quote: Saxahorse
        The Deutschlands, with their 28 knots, were clearly unable to catch up with or escape from the British cruiser.

        This is why the diesel "Kreuzer P" appeared, with a full speed of 33 knots.
      2. 0
        15 March 2025 17: 41
        Quote: Saxahorse
        All these "so-called battleships" were doomed due to their obviously insufficient speed.

        that's why I'm for a mixed diesel-boiler plant. Diesels for economical speed of 10-15 knots and for heating boiler water. Turbines for full
        1. 0
          15 March 2025 17: 49
          Quote: clou
          Diesels for economical running of 10-15 knots and for heating boiler water. Turbines for full

          The Germans were less inclined to complicate things.
          On newly designed ships, the diesel echelon was, so to speak, universal: it was both an economical speed echelon and part of the full speed installation.
        2. 0
          15 March 2025 21: 51
          Quote: clou
          That's why I'm for a mixed diesel-boiler unit.

          The Germans tried this, the light cruisers of the K type (Königsberg, Karlsruhe, Köln). It didn't work out very well. The turbine and diesel couldn't work together, switching modes took a lot of time, plus the power plant turned out to be very bulky, taking up a lot of space.
          1. 0
            16 March 2025 12: 24
            Quote: Saxahorse
            The Germans tried this, the light cruisers of the K type (Königsberg, Karlsruhe, Köln). It didn’t work out very well.

            This is why in all subsequent projects the Germans separated the steam-turbine and motor echelons of the power plant.
            On the Leipzig and Nuremberg, the engine echelon was purely an economical running machine, which, as on the K-type cruisers, also required lengthy manipulations when changing running modes.
            On ships designed under Plan Z, the engine echelon already provided approximately 1/3 of the power of the propulsion plant and, at full speed, worked in conjunction with the steam turbine.
  13. 0
    14 March 2025 19: 26
    It can be stated that heavy cruisers have demonstrated the ability to successfully operate, including against enemy convoys, in conditions where the enemy has control of the sea.

    As far as I remember, just after Hipper's last appearance, Hitler became furious and ordered all surface ships to be scrapped. Due to their complete uselessness. laughing
    1. +1
      14 March 2025 22: 00
      As far as I remember, just after Hipper's last appearance, Hitler became furious.

      It was not so much Hipper's fault as Lutzow's. He failed to correctly identify the convoy ships, from which Hipper had previously pulled the escort, thereby ruining the entire operation.
  14. +6
    14 March 2025 20: 07
    Admiral Hipper then took part in Operation Jumo (Juno?)

    The operation was called "Juno" /

    The attack did not take place, since the commander of the German squadron, after setting out to sea, based on data on the movement of British ships, assumed that the British were evacuating.
    Accordingly, he reoriented himself to actions against British convoys.

    Not quite so. Group West reoriented itself to attack Marshall's convoys based on intelligence data.

    It is noteworthy that a large German naval group was operating in the North Sea, in the zone of dominance of the Royal Navy, but even after the sinking of the three ships mentioned above, the British were unaware of its presence.

    Perhaps there were some problems with communications... The British (at least if we believe the Admiralty's JBD) only learned about the sinking of the entire "collective farm" at 15:00 on June 9 from the German news.
    You also miss the point that there were no satellites at that time and to find someone you have to work hard: a good example is "Bismarck" - the British knew the starting point and the finishing point, but nevertheless they found the battleship only a day later.

    Another sortie in which the heavy cruiser was to draw away the British ships to support Operation Seelewe,

    This exit (to the area between Scotland and Ireland) was planned but did not take place.

    but the chassis of the "Hipper" broke down there, and they didn't carry out "Seelewe".

    This departure was from September 24 to October 2. The cruiser reached Stavanger and returned.

    A cruiser on a raid risks encountering superior enemy forces, and that is what happened in this case.

    Maisel didn't know that. :)
    He simply didn't see "Dunedin", and mistook "Bonaventure" for a J-type EM...

    Based on this, V. L. Kofman, with reference to unknown German specialists

    G. Koop and K.-P. Schmolke, who in turn refer to Robert Hale...

    This operation also failed.

    The "double strike" did not take place due to difficult ice conditions and the need to repair the Scheer power plant.

    In September, the cruiser went out to lay mines, which was successfully carried out in the Matochkin Shar Strait – 96 mines were laid.

    Operation Tsarin, September 24-28, 42.

    From 5 to 9 November, Admiral Hipper and four destroyers carried out Operation Hoffnung, the purpose of which was to attempt to catch ships that had fallen behind the convoys.

    Not quite true. The idea of ​​the "Nadezhda" was to intercept ships of the so-called "drip voyages": they were made by single high-speed (by trade standards) ships along the northernmost route in both directions. "Drip voyages" took place after the PQ-18 lead, when the British were trying to fight off the convoy escorts in every possible way.

    According to V. Kofman and M. Morozov, the result of the operation was the sinking of SKR-23 and the tanker Donbass (8 GRT). But there is some uncertainty here, because according to A. Sergeev, SKR-000 perished on October 23, 11, having hit a German mine.

    According to German documents, "U-Jager No.78" and "Tanker 8000 t" were sunk. Both were sunk by Z 27.

    Admiral Hipper was unable to detect the British cruisers for some time even after they opened fire.

    It is not true. The following is stated in the JBD:
    11:31. Enemy shells fell on the starboard side at a distance of 50 m.
    11:32. The ship turns towards the enemy cruisers at bearing 45.
    11:34. Hit received...


    The Prinz Eugen, sailing with the Bismarck, was intercepted by British cruisers and battleships

    British cruisers did not take part in the battle in the Denmark Strait.

    Let me remind you that of the 8 specially built German cruisers that operated on Britain’s ocean communications during the First World War, not a single one survived.

    The initial conditions were very different.
    It seems to me that if the Sheer had had to start from Qingdao with cruising operations in mind, it would not have made it home either.

    Even without wasting much time on destroying the escort (the Jervis Bay was destroyed within 20 minutes),

    Considering that the NH-84 was attacked in the evening, it is not surprising that some of the transports "ran away".

    1. Discovery of the main convoy routes through intelligence, data from deployed submarines and regular flights of long-range reconnaissance aircraft;

    The route "corridors" were known, but how exactly the convoy would go within the corridor was a mystery even for its commodore and escort: too many external factors had to be taken into account.
    Yes, there weren't that many "condors"...
  15. +2
    14 March 2025 21: 16
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And played no role in the interception. That's what I'm writing about.

    "Eugen" - no. Simply because "Eugen" was not really caught.
    And in the interception of "Bismarck" he played quite well...
  16. 0
    20 March 2025 20: 31
    aircraft carrier - "too innovative a solution"
    why not try something "conservative"
    The Heavy Raider is not a lone fighter, but the core of a group (preferably a permanent formation) including 2-3-4 specially designed for joint action "light cruisers/ultra-long-range super leaders"
    this would easily solve two of the problems mentioned
    - intelligence service
    - "the vehicles scatter in different directions."
    The Vladivostok Detachment could have fought like that if the RIF had been preparing for a cruiser war for real.
    What prevented the Germans from implementing this option?
    1. 0
      21 March 2025 18: 09
      Quote: lodochnik2000
      What prevented the Germans from implementing this option?

      Only time...
      Plan Z envisaged the deployment of three groups of heavy ships by 1948: each with two H-type battleships and four P- and M-type cruisers... there would have been small fry there, such as SP-type cruisers and diesel destroyers - an interesting question.
      1. 0
        22 March 2025 15: 57
        it is not that.
        these are already shock units.
        clearly not against the "merchants".
        1. 0
          22 March 2025 16: 42
          Quote: lodochnik2000
          these are already shock units.
          clearly not against the "merchants".

          The Germans thought differently... :)
          There is quite a lot of literature on Plan Z on the Internet.