Why did the battleship Oslyabya perish?

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Why did the battleship Oslyabya perish?

According to the author, there were three main reasons for the rapid demise of the battleship Oslyabya:

1. High overload, which negatively affected its unsinkability.



2. Unsuccessful maneuvering, due to which from the first minutes of the Battle of Tsushima, the Oslyabya found itself under concentrated fire from the majority of the enemy fleet.

3. Increased efficiency of Japanese artillery, which allowed the tactical advantage gained to be realized.

Let's look at these reasons in more detail...

Overloading of the battleship Oslyabya


The influence of overload on the unsinkability of the Oslyabya


As we found out in the previous article, the reason for the fatal increase in the list of the Oslyabya was the holes in the unarmored side, through which the forward compartments of the living deck received free communication with the sea.

Let's imagine the development of events if the Oslyabya had entered the battle without being overloaded...

The armor belt along 3/4 of the ship's length along the waterline would have undoubtedly withstood shell hits. Numerous holes were formed in the unarmored side at the ends.

The compartments located on the lower deck outside the citadel were separated by watertight bulkheads and had powerful water drainage facilities. Even if both the bow and stern ends were completely flooded, the ship would settle by 20 cm, the area of ​​the cargo waterline would decrease by 9%, stability would decrease significantly, but there was no threat of capsizing.

The holes formed in the unarmored side on the living deck would remain above the surface of the sea and would not communicate with it.

If the Oslyabya had had the design draft, it would have been very difficult to sink it with artillery!

In reality, due to overload, the living deck was already at sea level by the start of the battle, and its flooding threatened a catastrophic loss of stability. The main belt armor was completely submerged. Along the 130-meter waterline, only 50 meters in the central part were covered by a weak upper belt, which from a distance of 5000 meters could withstand Japanese armor-piercing shells of 6 inches and higher caliber only due to their premature detonation or significant deviation from the normal. The 80-meter unarmored ends were especially vulnerable to Japanese high-explosive shells.


Comparison of the side protection of the battleship Oslyabya at design displacement (top) and in the Battle of Tsushima (bottom)

Possibility of reducing the overload of the Oslyabya


Given that overload became one of the main reasons for the death of the Oslyabya, the question of how to reduce it became especially important.

Possibility of reducing construction overload

In preparation for the voyage as part of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, additional equipment was installed on the Oslyabya, including a radio room, telegraph, and Spencer-Miller coal loading devices.

At the same time, it was possible to remove items that were useless in modern combat from the Oslyabya, weighing about 200 tons in total: the 6-inch bow gun, all 47-mm and 37-mm artillery, the combat topsail, mine launchers, and mine barriers.

Possibility of reducing operational coal overload

The distance from the Tsushima Strait to Vladivostok was 580 miles. According to the morning reports preserved on the Almaz, it can be calculated that on the morning of May 14, 1905, there were about 1 tons of coal on board the Oslyabya, which allowed it to travel 288 miles at 1 knots full speed or 630 miles at 18 knots average speed.

It is obvious that the overload of the Oslyabya could be significantly reduced by the coal reserve. But by how much? The answer depends on the chosen calculation method!

Calculation of coal requirements based on maximum squadron speed

The ships of the 1st Pacific Squadron, preparing to break through from Port Arthur to Vladivostok, calculated their coal requirements based on the assumption that the passage would be made by the shortest route at the maximum squadron speed of 14 knots. Possible excess coal consumption due to deviation from course or damage received could be compensated for by reducing speed.

The maximum squadron speed of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, according to Z. P. Rozhestvensky, was 12 knots. Moving in a straight line, the ships reached Vladivostok in two days. The estimated coal requirement of the Oslyabya was no more than 300 tons of coal. The speed of 12 knots was close to economical, therefore, in addition to the estimated requirement, the battleship needed a reserve supply of coal.

Combat experience. Battleship "Tsesarevich"

The battleship Tsarevich used 575 tons of coal on the 430-mile voyage from Port Arthur to Qingdao – much more than expected.

The excess coal consumption was due to two reasons.

Firstly, the night after the battle, the Tsarevich developed a speed of 16,7 knots. There is a cubic relationship between speed and coal consumption, so increasing the speed from 14 to 16,7 knots led to a 1,7-fold increase in coal consumption.

Secondly, the chimneys suffered extensive damage, and to compensate for the loss of draft, forced ventilation was turned on, which blew small, unburned coal out of the fireboxes.


Battleship "Tsesarevich". Damage to smoke stacks

The example of the breakthrough of the Tsarevich alone at full speed cannot be used to calculate the Oslyabya’s need for coal, because Z. P. Rozhestvensky planned to move to Vladivostok exclusively as part of a squadron, the speed of which was limited by slow-moving ships and could not cause a radical increase in coal consumption.

Combat experience. Armored cruiser "Rossiya"

From June 15 to 20, 1904, the cruiser Rossiya, as part of the Vladivostok detachment, made a voyage to the Korean Strait. Most of the time, its speed was 15 knots, but at the moment of contact with the detachment of H. Kamimura, it was increased to 18 knots. The average daily coal consumption was 243 tons.

From July 30 to August 3, 1904, Rossiya, as part of the Vladivostok detachment, sailed out to meet the ships of the 1st Pacific Squadron. The cruiser covered about 1100 miles and consumed about 900 tons of coal. When moving to the Korean Strait, the average speed was 11,5 knots, in battle the cruiser maintained 14-15 knots, on the way back - 14-14,5 knots. The smoke stacks were heavily damaged, but the forced ventilation was faulty and was not used. The average daily coal consumption was about 250 tons.


Armored cruiser "Rossiya". Damage to smoke stacks

Based on the experience of the cruiser Rossiya, the coal consumption during a breakthrough to Vladivostok as a result of a two-day maneuvering battle, in which the Oslyabya would have received significant damage, could be estimated at approximately 500 tons.

Estimates of coal requirements of the participants in the Battle of Tsushima

V.P. Kostenko drew up a plan for unloading the Orel, according to which, upon entering the Korean Strait, there should have been slightly less than 600 tons of coal on board.

Z. P. Rozhestvensky informed the Investigative Commission that on the morning of May 14, 1905, the battleships of the 1st detachment had no more than 600 tons of coal. The squadron commander was being disingenuous, but what is important to us is something else: he considered this reserve sufficient to reach Vladivostok.

The coal requirement calculated for the Borodino-class battleships can be considered more than sufficient for the Oslyabya, which proved to be more economical than them on the last voyage.

If 600 tons of coal had remained on board the Oslyabya, its overload would have been reduced by 688 tons.

Possibility of reducing other operational overloads

Measures to reduce other operational overloads were to be carried out during the last stop off the coast of Indochina. At a meeting on April 4, 1905, the ship's engineers raised the issue of unloading the ships to ensure unsinkability, to which the flagship engineer E. S. Politovsky responded that the corresponding measures had already been proposed to Z. P. Rozhestvensky and categorically rejected.

"Oslyabya" received supplies in the same volume as the battleships of the 1st detachment, therefore, when assessing the possibility of reducing other operational overload, one can use the available information about the battleship "Orel", from which V.P. Kostenko proposed to remove, in addition to coal, 655 tons of various cargo, including:

• Fresh water for boilers and ship needs – 250 tons
• Food – 120 tons
• Machine oil – 40 tons
• Training equipment – ​​25 tons
• Boats and dinghies – 100 tons
• Equipment, consumables and repair materials – 120 tons.

The total potential for reducing the overload of the Oslyabya can be estimated at 1 tons, of which:
• construction overload – 200 tons;
• operational coal handling capacity – 688 tons;
• other operational overload – 655 tons.

If the above measures had been taken, the upper edge of the main belt and the living deck of the Oslyabya would have been approximately 70-80 cm above sea level. The destruction of the unarmored side at the ends would not have had catastrophic consequences, and the ship would have safely survived the first hours of the Battle of Tsushima.

Unfortunately, in reality Z. P. Rozhestvensky ignored measures to reduce the overload of warships.

Maneuvering of the Russian squadron at the beginning of the Battle of Tsushima


The question of what formation the Russian squadron began the battle in is still a subject of debate.

Z. P. Rozhestvensky claimed that at the moment of opening fire the ships were already lined up in one wake.

Many Russian officers, on the contrary, testified that the squadron began the battle in two columns, and that Oslyabya slowed down and reformed under enemy fire.

It is now possible to put an end to the question of maneuvering at the beginning of the Battle of Tsushima thanks to the involvement of Japanese sources.

The relative positions of the 1st and 2nd armored detachments of the Russian squadron 3 minutes before the start of the battle (at 13:47) are reflected in the diagram attached to the combat report of the commander of the Mikasa.


Fragment of the diagram attached to the combat report of the commander of the battleship "Mikasa" about the Battle of Tsushima. The situation at 13:47

The combat report itself states that at the moment of opening fire, the closest enemy ship was the Oslyabya, the distance to which was 6500 m. Of the column of Borodino-class battleships, only the Knyaz Suvorov and the Emperor Alexander III managed to move forward relative to the Oslyabya.

The combat reports of the commanders of other ships of the 1st and 2nd combat detachments and the diagrams they compiled clearly indicate that the Russian squadron began the battle in two columns, and the Oslyabya turned out to be the closest enemy ship.

The distances to the target recorded by Japanese officers allowed us to establish that the Oslyabya was rapidly approaching in the first minutes of the battle and at 14:00 was 4800 meters from the Fuji and 4700 meters from the Kasuga. At that moment, nine ships concentrated their fire on it!


Scheme of the Battle of Tsushima. Position at 14:00

Then the Oslyabya began to re-form in the wake of the Orel. The most accurate time for the completion of this maneuver was apparently indicated on his diagram by the British attaché T. Jackson: 14:04 (the diagram shows Kyoto time: Russian + 18 minutes).


Fragment of the diagram attached to T. Jackson's report on the Battle of Tsushima

Thus, during the first 15 minutes of the battle, Oslyabya was the closest target for most Japanese ships and also the lead ship of the column, so it came under concentrated fire and received heavy damage.

From a tactical point of view, the squadron’s maneuvering, in which a weakly protected battleship was exposed to enemy attack, was a gross mistake by Z. P. Rozhestvensky.

The effectiveness of Japanese artillery fire


"Oslyabya" was far from the first Russian ship to come under concentrated fire from the Japanese fleet. On July 28, 1904, at least two battleships found themselves in a similar situation in the Yellow Sea.

At the very beginning of the 2nd, final phase of the battle, the Japanese fleet, catching up with the enemy, caught up with the battleship Poltava, which had fallen behind due to a broken engine, and concentrated its fire on it. The result was described by senior officer S. I. Lutonin:

The furious fire of the Japanese is almost harmless to the Poltava, all the shells fly overhead with a roar and an ominous howl, hitting the tops, but occasionally they hit the stern.

At the culmination of the 2nd phase of the battle, the battleship Retvizan selflessly rushed to attack the Japanese fleet and took fire from almost all of its ships. The ship's commander E. N. Shchensnovich noted the enemy's low accuracy:

When the Retvizan was at a distance of 22-17 cables from the enemy, shells showered it, the deck was wet from the splashes of shells falling all around, but there were almost no hits.

In both episodes described above, the Japanese fleet failed to realize its tactical advantage and inflict decisive damage on the enemy ship. Fire concentrated on one target was ineffective. Numerous splashes and thick smoke from the explosions made it impossible to distinguish the falls of friendly shells and made adjustments difficult. The Retvizan approached so close that the Japanese opened rapid fire and brought in anti-mine artillery, which only worsened visibility conditions. A thick cloud of black smoke formed from the continuous shell explosions, which completely hid the Russian battleship.

Before the Battle of Tsushima, the Japanese naval command took several important measures designed to increase the effectiveness of artillery.

Firstly, having become convinced of the high efficiency of centralized fire control, it ordered its use whenever possible.

Secondly, to improve accuracy, the desired combat distance was reduced to 5 meters (000 cables).

Thirdly, it recommended, in difficult observation conditions, to fire volleys from 6-inch guns in order to distinguish the fall of one’s own shells and adjust fire.

Fourthly, having realized the inability of existing armor-piercing shells to penetrate armor, it relied on high-explosive shells and increased their share in the ammunition load.

Fifth, it adopted a new strategy of sinking enemy battleships by causing holes above the armor belt in the bow.

Sixthly, to increase the damage caused, it was recommended to fire shots from the 12-inch turret in a salvo.

Seventh, it took care of the training of gunners and organized regular barrel firing.

The results of the work on the mistakes were not long in coming. Unlike the battle in the Yellow Sea, the participants of the Battle of Tsushima noted the very high accuracy of the Japanese artillery fire, concentrated on the Oslyaba.

O. A. Shcherbachev was in the stern turret of the battleship Orel:

Around 2 o'clock in the afternoon, the fire concentrated on the Oslyaba reached terrifying intensity and accuracy. Almost every 1/2 minute a shell hit it, mainly in the bow.

G. A. Ivkov was in the conning tower of the battleship Sisoj Veliky:

We almost ran into the Oslyabya and clearly saw how a mass of shells exploded against its side and destroyed all the superstructures.

V. N. Markov was on the top of the coastal defense battleship Admiral Senyavin:

The Japanese concentrated terrible fire on the Oslyaba; you can see how the shells are landing on the side.

Assessment of fire impact on the battleship Oslyabya[/h3
Numerous and sometimes very emotional descriptions of the shooting of the Oslyabya cannot be used as the only evidence of the unprecedented intensity of the impact of Japanese artillery. There is an opinion that concentrating the fire of a large number of ships on one target cannot be effective. Therefore, to assess the fire impact, one should operate with measurable quantities.

The memoirs of the participants in the Battle of Tsushima contain information about more than thirty Japanese shells that hit the Oslyabya, of which over ten were 12-inch.


Scheme #1. Hits on the left side of the battleship Oslyabya

Without a doubt, information has reached us not about all the hits, but only about those that were etched in the memory of the officers and sailors who left behind the memories that have reached us.

The exact number of hits on Oslyabya will never be known, but we can make a rough calculation based on several indirect indicators.

According to the author, the most correct method for assessing the fire impact on the Oslyabya is a comparison with the Peresvet using measurable criteria: damage to artillery and losses among the crew.

Artillery damage


The first criterion by which one can compare the damage to Peresvet and Oslyabya is the amount of artillery disabled by external impact.

According to the report of senior artillery officer V. N. Cherkasov, only one 10-inch gun on the Peresvet sustained irreparable damage; after the end of the squadron battle, a 57-mm shell fired by a destroyer left a deep dent in its barrel.

The following sustained repairable damage from shrapnel, which was repaired during the battle by ship's means, were: the bow turret and one of its guns, as well as three 6-inch guns.

Seven 75mm and five 47mm guns were permanently or temporarily damaged.

The damage to the Oslyabya artillery is described in numerous, but scattered, memoirs.

The forward turret was destroyed by two shells hitting it at the same time. One of them tore off the barrel of the left gun (hit #2 in diagram #1), and the other penetrated the roof above the embrasure and exploded inside (hit #5 in diagram #1).

The forward two-tier casemate on the left side was destroyed by several successive hits from large shells (hits #11 and #12 on diagram #1). The armor plates slid down, and both 6-inch guns ceased firing.

The 6-inch gun of the middle casemate on the left side was destroyed by the explosion of a Japanese shell that penetrated through the embrasure.

Unfortunately, full information about the damage to the 75-mm and 47-mm guns has not reached us.

Based on the available information, the most correct comparison would be between Oslyabya and Peresvet based on the number of 10-inch and 6-inch guns destroyed or irreparably damaged.

Oslyabya lost five guns, Peresvet lost only one, and that was while repelling an attack by destroyers.

Crew losses


The second criterion for comparing the fire impact on Peresvet and Oslyabya is the number of killed and wounded.

After returning to the Port Arthur roadstead, the Peresvet's logbook recorded losses: 13 killed, 15 seriously wounded, and 64 lightly wounded. Later, the data obtained hot on the trail was clarified.

The senior ship's doctor of the Peresvet, N. I. Avgustovsky, in an essay on the sanitary and medical service, published in 1909, provided a list of names of 14 people killed on the ship, 3 who died in the hospital, and 87 wounded.

The “Sanitary Report on the Fleet that Participated in the Russo-Japanese War of 1915–1904,” published in 05, already included 19 killed and 104 wounded:


The exact losses of the Oslyabya crew from the impact of Japanese artillery will never be known.

The surviving memoirs describe the death of about forty officers and sailors at combat posts. Many were killed in the 75-mm battery, on the compass platform, and even behind the armor - in the bow turret, casemates, and conning tower. The fire-hold division, working under fire, suffered enormous losses.

According to eyewitnesses, many crew members were injured by shells.

M. P. Sablin:

The wounded walked or were carried on stretchers in a continuous line.

Paramedic G.S. Savin:

Every minute they brought in the wounded and seriously wounded, since very few of the lightly wounded arrived.

According to G.S. Savin, about 80 people were treated at the dressing stations, with the ratio of those who received severe/moderate/slight wounds being 25%/50%/25%. For comparison, the same ratio, according to the medical report for the battle on July 28, 1904, was 9%/58%/33% for the Peresvet and 14%/59%/27% for the Pobeda.

In the conditions of the ongoing battle and the enormous workload on the medical personnel, those officers and sailors whose wounds did not pose a threat to life remained at their posts. Therefore, the share of those admitted to the dressing stations of "Oslyabya" with serious wounds was very high.

Many of the injured could not reach the dressing stations. Senior Battalion Officer P. Ya. Bachurihin noted that the stretcher bearers took only those wounded who were under the cover of the armor, otherwise they themselves died.

According to the medical report, the proportion of those killed without medical assistance in the total number of casualties on the Peresvet was 8% (10/123), on the Pobeda - 6,5% (3/46). A similar ratio, calculated on the basis of the information that has reached us about the losses of the Oslyabya crew, is an abnormal 33% (40/120) and indicates that the available data on the number of wounded are greatly underestimated. Consequently, the most correct criterion for comparison is only the number of those killed at combat posts without medical assistance: at least 40 people on the Oslyabya and 10 people on the Peresvet.

Total Hits Estimate


Unlike the battle in the Yellow Sea, in the Battle of Tsushima the concentration of fire from a large number of ships on one target proved to be very effective. The Japanese fleet took advantage of Z. P. Rozhestvensky's tactical error and inflicted fatal damage on the Oslyaba.

The stunning effectiveness of Japanese artillery in the Battle of Tsushima should certainly be considered one of the reasons for the rapid destruction of the Oslyabya and the answer to the question of why, of the two identical battleships, the Peresvet survived, while the Oslyabya quickly perished.

A comparison using measurable criteria demonstrated that the Oslyabya received an unprecedented fire impact, at least 4–5 times more powerful than the Peresvet.

Some readers may want to calculate the number and caliber of shells that hit the Oslyabya by multiplying the data on hits on the Peresvet by the values ​​of measurable fire impact criteria. The author believes that such a calculation is incorrect for two reasons.

First, comparison based on measurable criteria is a very rough estimate.

Secondly, the distribution of hits by caliber for the Peresvet and the Oslyabya had completely different proportions.

On July 28, 1904, Peresvet was hit by at least 36 shells, 16 of which, according to the author's estimate, were 12-inch caliber. The Japanese battleships fired at Peresvet from a long distance and often only from their main caliber guns, so the proportion of hits by 12-inch shells was very high.

The Battle of Tsushima began at medium range, which allowed the Japanese ships to immediately bring into action not only the main guns, but also the medium caliber guns, and later the anti-mine guns. The Japanese cruisers had a longer fire impact on the Oslyabya than the battleships. Therefore, among the shells that hit it, the overwhelming majority had a caliber of 6 inches, and the share of 12-inch shells was noticeably inferior to the share of 8-10-inch shells.


Schedule of firing by ships of the Japanese fleet's battle line at the battleship Oslyabya in the Battle of Tsushima

[h3]Consequences of waterline holes for Japanese battleships
After reading the series of articles, the reader may have a question: what consequences did the holes near the waterline have for the enemy?

According to calculations by the famous Russian shipbuilder N. E. Kuteinikov, if the area of ​​the cargo waterline of the Japanese battleship were to decrease by approximately 17%, it would lose stability and capsize.

The exclusion of a compartment area from the area of ​​the ship's cargo waterline occurs if the water in this compartment freely communicates with the sea through an underwater or semi-submerged hole. Traditionally, the most vulnerable to such damage were the compartments located outside the citadel, which accounted for about 25% of the total area of ​​the cargo waterline of the Japanese battleship.

Fuji had no side armour outside the citadel and could have been destroyed if she had taken a large number of hits from 6-inch or larger shells at both ends near the waterline.

"Mikasa", "Shikishima" and "Asahi" had a main belt along the entire or almost the entire length of the waterline, which in the Battle of Tsushima, even with the presence of excess coal and shell reserves, rose above the cargo waterline by 60-70 cm and did not allow holes in the unarmored side to sink into the water. The belt at the ends had a thickness of 140-99 mm and at typical combat distances could be penetrated only by 12-inch or 10-inch Russian shells. Therefore, "Mikasa", "Shikishima" and "Asahi" could have perished from loss of stability only if they found themselves in the same situation as "Oslyabya": they received a large number of hits from large shells near the waterline in a short period of time.

During the entire Battle of Tsushima, only four holes were formed on the four Japanese battleships below the level of the main deck (on a Russian navy ship it would be called the battery deck) - the same number as on one Oslyaba in 10 minutes at the beginning of the battle.

At 14:07, a 12-inch high-explosive shell hit the 148-mm upper belt of Mikasa opposite the 15th coal pit and exploded as it penetrated the armor. A rounded conical hole 55 cm wide and 70 cm high was formed in the plate, the lower edge of which was 1,6...1,7 m above the cargo waterline.


Battleship Mikasa. Scheme of sealing the hole in the 15th coal pit

The coal pit was filled to the brim with coal, which was mixed with water and coal dust. The emergency party dug a passage to the hole and installed an umbrella-shaped patch, but it did not stop the water from flowing in and was dismantled. The emergency party then installed and secured two wooden patches from the outside with hook bolts, placing wool blankets, cots and mats inside. The hole was sealed.


On the left is an umbrella-shaped patch, on the right is a wooden patch

At 14:22, a 6-inch shell hit the Mikasa's chief engineer's cabin, pierced the internal bulkhead, and exploded in the chief engineer's office. An oval hole 21 cm wide and 31 cm high was formed in the outer unarmored side, the lower edge of which almost reached the flooring of the lower (living) deck. The explosion destroyed the equipment in the office, damaged the cabin, tore a hole about 30 cm in diameter in the flooring of the lower (living) deck, and smashed the drinking water tank located below.


Battleship Mikasa. Scheme of sealing the hole in the chief engineer's cabin

The emergency crew placed a wooden patch on the outside of the hole and wool blankets, bunks and wooden supports on the inside. However, due to the proximity of the waterline (about 70 cm from the bottom edge of the hole), water still seeped in.

At 15:57, a 12-inch armor-piercing shell penetrated the 148-mm upper belt of Mikasa and exploded in the 21st coal pit. The armor plate split into several pieces, forming an elongated hole about 95 cm wide and about 40 cm high, the lower edge of which was approximately 2,1...2,2 meters above the waterline. The blast wave destroyed the flooring of the main (battery) deck, as well as the bulkheads adjacent to the 19th coal pit and the lower (living) deck compartment.


Battleship Mikasa. Scheme of sealing the hole in the 21th coal pit

The emergency team scooped out the coal and, just as they had done with the hole in the 15th coal pit, installed a wooden patch on the outside.

Significant time intervals between hits at the waterline allowed the Mikasa's emergency crews to patch them up in a timely manner. As a result, only local flooding occurred, which did not have any noticeable effect on the ship's unsinkability.

At 14:12, a 6-inch shell penetrated the unarmored side of the Shikishima on the lower (living) deck and exploded in the doctor's cabin. Shrapnel penetrated the bulkhead and damaged the adjacent cabin of the senior doctor. A hole 30 cm wide and 50 cm high formed in the outer side, the lower edge of which was approximately 80 cm above the cargo waterline.


Battleship Shikishima. Diagram of the hole in the doctor's cabin

The emergency party that arrived first tried to install an umbrella-shaped patch, but it did not hold the water at all. The rough seas did not allow the wooden patch to be installed outside. Then the emergency party closed the hole from the inside using bunks and woolen blankets and propped them up with boards. The water flow decreased, but did not stop.

Through the ventilation pipes, which had no valves where they passed through the bulkheads and decks, water penetrated into the adjacent compartments: the wardroom and officers' cabins located in the stern, as well as the food and uniform storage rooms located below.

Soon, a 15-centimeter layer of water covered the entire lower (living) deck from the stern beam to the sternpost, which had a negative impact on stability. Shikishima began to roll when the rudder was shifted, a slight list to the starboard side arose, with the water level near the hole reaching 60 cm.

Only after 18:XNUMX, when the waves had subsided, the emergency team installed a specially made patch on the outside and tightly pulled it to the side. The water flow was stopped.

A hole from even a 6-inch shell caused significant damage to the unsinkability of the Shikishima for two reasons. First, it was formed near the waterline and was of significant size, so it was repaired only when the waves subsided. Second, the poor ventilation design played a role, allowing water to spread across the lower deck and the platform located below it.

Conclusion


In conclusion of the article and the entire cycle, it is necessary to summarize the main conclusions. The tragic death of the battleship Oslyabya at the beginning of the Battle of Tsushima was not an accident, not a fatal coincidence of circumstances.
Firstly, the operational and construction overload of the battleship proved fatal.

Secondly, Z. P. Rozhestvensky’s tactical miscalculation put Oslyabya under attack from the majority of the Japanese fleet.

Thirdly, the increased skill of the Japanese gunners allowed them to exert a powerful fire impact on the Oslyabya in a short period of time, several times greater than on the Peresvet in the Yellow Sea.

Three ingrained myths about Oslyaba have not been confirmed.

The first is that the battleship had a construction overload of 1 tons.

The second is that he was killed by two 12-inch shells that made holes near the waterline.

Thirdly, the poor quality of the case's manufacture was one of the reasons for its rapid demise.
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  1. +4
    6 March 2025 05: 05
    The memoirs of the participants in the Battle of Tsushima contain information about more than thirty Japanese shells that hit the Oslyabya, of which over a dozen were 12 inches.

    On July 28, 1904, at least 36 shells, of which 16, according to the author, had a caliber of 12 inches.

    The figures are comparable. However, we also read there
    A comparison based on measurable criteria showed that Oslyabya received an unprecedented, at least in 4–5 times more powerful fire impact than Peresvet.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +2
      6 March 2025 05: 36
      Here it should be understood that "Peresvet" received this slowly and solemnly, but "Oslyaba" was loaded in half an hour.
      1. +3
        6 March 2025 08: 43
        Quote: MCmaximus
        "Peresvet" received this long and solemnly

        Maxim, it was Peresvet that took the bulk of these hits in half an hour, when it came under heavy fire from the Japanese squadron, from about 16.40:17.10 to XNUMX:XNUMX.
        11 hits, including 7 large-caliber ones, were recorded in time, but there were clearly a large number of shells that were not recorded in time.
        1. +3
          6 March 2025 13: 27
          Well, what can I say... I'll be wrong here.
          As a failed shipbuilder, the picture of his death is clear as day. The ship must be viewed simply as two levers - lengthwise and crosswise.
          Like last time - it could have sunk and it did. And the main reason was a large number of hits to the weakly protected bow section in the presence of overload.
        2. +1
          6 March 2025 21: 24
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          when he came under heavy fire from the Japanese squadron

          There was no strong fire from the Japanese squadron on the Peresvet. I transferred seven BDs from the Mikasa to the Yakumo. We can summarize the fire on the Peresvet:
          Asahi: 5:50 forward turret transferred fire to 4th ship
          6:30 the forward turret transferred fire to the lead ship
          Fuji:
          5:53 target 4th ship (12-inch guns only)
          6:00 target 3rd ship
          6:30 target 4th ship (12-inch and 6-inch guns)
          6:47 target 5rd ship

          Well, there are some hits in "Peresvet":
          Mikasa: 6:01 both masts down
          Asahi: 6:00 mainmast shot down, 6:02 foremast shot down
          Fuji: 5:55 the mainmast was knocked down, 6:00 the foremast was knocked down, 6:36 a fire near the rear bridge, 6:47 the main battery turret was out of action
          Kasuga: 5:57 both masts are down
          1. +1
            6 March 2025 21: 26
            Yeah, there weren't any at all. And where did so many hits come from at the time I indicated on Peresvet...
            1. 0
              6 March 2025 21: 50
              at the time I specified

              Were you on "Peresvet" in that battle? )))
              Or where did you get the information about the time of impact?
              I have given Japanese time, the difference from Russian is almost an hour.
              1. +1
                7 March 2025 08: 28
                Quote: rytik32
                Or where did you get the information about the time of impact?

                It's not mine, it's Polomoshnov's, whose hits are divided into those known in time and those unknown.
                Quote: rytik32
                We can sum up the firing on Peresvet:
                Asahi: 5:50 forward turret transferred fire to 4th ship
                6:30 the forward turret transferred fire to the lead ship
                Fuji:
                5:53 target 4th ship (12-inch guns only)
                6:00 target 3rd ship
                6:30 target 4th ship (12-inch and 6-inch guns)
                6:47 target 5rd ship

                Only now have I read it carefully... Alexey, with your translation you have completely destroyed the Japanese reports as a source of information about the targets of Japanese fire.
                That is, according to your translation, it turns out that the Asahi bow turret fired at Peresvet for 40 minutes, the Fuji main battery turrets for 24 minutes, and the 6-inch Fuji for 17 minutes. And that's it. This is despite the fact that Peresvet received the maximum number of hits among all Russian EBRs in the 2nd phase.
                According to your calculations, it turns out that the Peresvet was under fire for only 1 hour and 7 minutes (that is, comparable to Oslyabya), and all of its no less than 16 hits with shells from 120 to 254 mm were received by the ship in 17 minutes from a single Fuji:)))))) That is, again - SUDDENLY the Japanese show convolution and super-effectiveness, and the rest of the time - they miss as best they can
                1. 0
                  7 March 2025 09: 08
                  She's at Polomoshnov's

                  Evgeny was not on board the Peresvet either.

                  With your translation you have completely destroyed the Japanese reports as a source of information about the targets of Japanese fire.

                  Very bold!

                  SUDDENLY the Japanese show convolution and super-efficiency

                  For you "suddenly", I wrote about the high accuracy of the Japanese a long time ago...
                  1. +1
                    7 March 2025 10: 33
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Evgeny was not on board the Peresvet either.

                    But he still found the data on the time of impact somewhere.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Very bold!

                    Fact
                    Quote: rytik32
                    For you "suddenly", I wrote about the high accuracy of the Japanese a long time ago...

                    Once again:)))) In total, the Japanese achieved about 71 hits with a caliber lower than 10-inch in the second phase (hits from destroyers are excluded) 6-inch of them were clearly less, since this included hits of other calibers.
                    Peresvet was hit by a total of 34 shells (canonically 37, but there were also fragmentation shells from destroyers). Of these, 33 were in the 2nd phase. Of these, 12 were of 10-12-inch caliber.
                    According to your translation, only Fuji fired at Peresvet from guns smaller than 10-inch, and only for 17 minutes. Accordingly, it was Fuji that achieved those 17 hits in 21 minutes. I wrote 16 earlier off the top of my head from memory, now I looked at the old calculations that I made in the article https://topwar.ru/187263-o-rezultativnosti-strelby-glavnyh-sil-japoncev-v-boju-pri-shantunge.html) They may not be accurate, but if so, then it is unimportant.
                    And so, Alexey, according to your translation it turns out like this.
                    Fuji demonstrated touching accuracy, scoring 21 hits with calibers smaller than 10-inch in 17 minutes. The other six Japanese ships, however, shot very poorly, scoring 6 similar hits between 50:16.30 and 19.00:XNUMX.
                    Is that clearer? In general, I had a strong suspicion before that the Japanese reports regarding targets were not accurate, and now you have proven it.
                    1. 0
                      7 March 2025 11: 26
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      But he still found the data on the time of impact somewhere.

                      I don't know where he found it... It's on the Tsushima forum, you can ask

                      Of these, 12 are 10-12-inch caliber.

                      I counted a little more. I can post a table.
                      only Fuji shot

                      And have you forgotten "Asahi"?
                      having achieved 21 hits with calibers less than 10-inch in 17 minutes

                      I counted less than 6-inch hits.
                      And the other 6 Japanese ships were shooting very poorly.

                      Well, it wasn't by chance that I described the shooting, for example, at the Retvizan. The Japanese fired their entire fleet at the fleeing cloud of smoke. And the accuracy turned out to be appropriate.
                      and now you have proven it

                      I proved something completely different )))
                      1. +1
                        7 March 2025 12: 06
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And have you forgotten "Asahi"?

                        And Asahi fired, as you write, only the 12-inch bow.
                        Asahi: 5:50 forward turret transferred fire to 4th ship
                        6:30 the forward turret transferred fire to the lead ship

                        Quote: rytik32
                        I counted less than 6-inch hits.

                        And how many? How many shells smaller than 254 mm hit the Peresvet, according to your calculations?
                        Do you understand that, according to your data, no other shells except 6-inch and 12-inch could have hit Peresvet, since other calibers simply did not fire at it?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Well, it wasn't by chance that I described the shooting, for example, at the Retvizan. The Japanese fired their entire fleet at the fleeing cloud of smoke. And the accuracy turned out to be appropriate.

                        Alexey, did they spend the entire second phase shooting at the smoke clouds?:)))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I proved something completely different )))

                        Just compare the number of hits on Peresvet with Fuji and the other Russian ships in the same logic as I did. You will get that Fuji is an arch-sniper, the others are blunderers compared to him, the difference in accuracy there will not even be several times, but orders of magnitude. And you consider THIS proof of Japanese accuracy?:)
                      2. 0
                        7 March 2025 12: 37
                        And how much?

                        A little later, we need to dig into this
                        Get it, Fuji is an arch-sniper, the rest are losers compared to him

                        Wasn't it the same in Tsushima? "Izumo" - 7 hits in 3 minutes. "Iwate" - 0 hits in 13 minutes.
                        Do you consider THIS proof of Japanese precision?:)

                        This is proof that there was potential and that they were not able to concentrate fire.
                      3. +1
                        7 March 2025 13: 05
                        Quote: rytik32
                        A little later, we need to dig into this

                        No problem. But what's the point of digging around? The order of the numbers, if it does change, will be for the worse for your position.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Wasn't it the same in Tsushima? "Izumo" - 7 hits in 3 minutes. "Iwate" - 0 hits in 13 minutes.

                        Alexey:))))) Leave Tsushima alone for now, please. And answer the question, how did Fuji manage to provide approximately 17% of hits with 30-inch shells in 6 minutes from the total number of hits that reached 7 Japanese ships in 2,5 hours.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This is proof that there was potential and that they were not able to concentrate fire.

                        This is proof that the original data contains errors. And I even suspect what kind.
                        By the way, how many in total, according to your translation, were fired in the second phase of the Fuji six-inch gun?
                      4. 0
                        7 March 2025 13: 52
                        how did Fuji manage to provide in 17 minutes

                        We need to study the Fuji shooting technique in ZhM. They say there is something in the English reports.
                        This is evidence that the original data contains errors.

                        You haven't even worked with the source, but you've already proven something. You have simply unique abilities!
                        how many in total, according to your translation, were shot in the second phase
                        six-inch Fuji?
                        Everything is here, my translation matches
                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/47557.html
                      5. 0
                        7 March 2025 14: 15
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You haven't even worked with the source, but you've already proven something. You have simply unique abilities!

                        Alexey, please don't avoid the answer. I haven't worked with sources, so I'm asking you a very specific question - how many 6-inch shells do you think hit the Peresvet and other Russian ships in the 2nd phase of the battle in ZhM.
                        You answered that Peresvet had 17, okay, it turns out that the other 16 shells that hit it were 12-inch. Ours do not confirm this, but let's assume. How many 6-inch hits on our ships were achieved in the second phase of the battle in ZhM?:)))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Everything is here, my translation matches
                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/47557.html

                        Total 59 minutes. With an accuracy of 1 hit per minute, it turns out that except for Fuji, almost no one hit Russian ships with 6-inch guns?
                      6. 0
                        7 March 2025 13: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        How many shells smaller than 254 mm hit the Peresvet in total, according to your calculations?

                        17
                        №№ according to Cherkasov 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 25, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 35
                      7. 0
                        7 March 2025 14: 07
                        Quote: rytik32
                        17

                        The rest are 12-inch? :) Well, let's assume. And how many 6-inch shells hit the ships of the Russian squadron?
                      8. -1
                        7 March 2025 14: 10
                        How many 6-inch shells hit the ships of the Russian squadron in total?

                        I didn't count. Moreover, it's difficult to count for some ships.
                      9. +1
                        7 March 2025 14: 19
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I didn't count. Moreover, it's difficult to count for some ships.

                        That's why I'm telling you - even if you count ALL hits with a caliber smaller than 10-inch as six-inch hits, there will still be about 71 of them. More precisely, 67, since you converted some of the hits to 12-inch. If Fuji fires 59 mines and hits one per minute, it turns out that the rest are left with 8 hits...
                      10. -2
                        7 March 2025 14: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        If Fuji fires 59 mines and hits one per minute,

                        Everything is simpler. "Fuji" zeroed in on "Peresvet", no one interfered with it. Before that time almost no one fired from 6-inch because of the distance. After - almost everyone fired at "Retvizan" ...
                      11. 0
                        7 March 2025 16: 17
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Until that time, almost no one fired from the 6-inch because of the distance. After that, almost everyone fired at the Retvizan...

                        Alexey, what are you even talking about now?:)))))) What Retvizan? ALL of our battleships received 4-15 hits of an unknown caliber, most were clearly 6-inch.
                      12. -1
                        7 March 2025 16: 56
                        I'm trying to explain that there was nothing like that
                        If Fuji shoots 59 mines and gives one hit per minute

                        "Fuji" could make 5 hits in 15 minutes, and then not hit a single one for half an hour.
                      13. +1
                        7 March 2025 18: 26
                        Quote: rytik32
                        "Fuji" could make 5 hits in 15 minutes, and then not hit a single one for half an hour.

                        Of course, he could, miracles do happen sometimes.
                        Here, for example, is the Fuji, which, from 12-15 cable lengths during exercises, in the most peaceful and pleasant environment, hits with 13 6-inch shells out of 60 fired, suddenly, miraculously, in combat and from a distance three times greater, hits at a rate of one shell per minute. Isn't it a miracle? A miracle. Gunners who were quite average in their training suddenly see the light and start shooting squirrels in the eye.
                        After 17 minutes, the suddenly brilliant Japanese gunners suddenly become stupid and transfer fire to a target they cannot hit. Isn't it a miracle? A miracle.
                        Fuji, which performed very poorly in the exercises, having roughly 11% of the total number of 6-inch guns, suddenly miraculously produces about 30-40% of the total number of hits from them (or even more, after all, the 75 mm and 203 mm sometimes hit). And Shikishima and Asahi, which produced 47-67% accuracy in the exercises, two to three times better than Fuji, turn out to be complete misses. Isn't that a miracle? What a miracle!
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I'm trying to explain

                        Alexey, I know very well what you are trying to explain. In turn, I have long since stopped trying to explain to you that you are proceeding from an incorrect premise, literally perceiving Japanese reports.
                        It is enough to make one simple assumption, and all the "miracles" in the Japanese reports that I described above cease to be such. You yourself wrote at the time that centralized shooting was introduced by the Japanese already by Tsushima, and not by the battle in ZhM. It only remains to assume that the ships indicated in the reports are not targets that were supposed to be fired at from all the ship's guns at all costs, but only priority targets. At which it was not ORDERED, but RECOMMENDED to shoot.
                        That is, the ships that had set themselves the task of shelling the "retvizan" at that time could have been firing half or even more of their artillery at completely different targets.
                        Simply put, if the Japanese did not have strict centralization of fire in the LM, and they did not, then in no case can it be assumed that if it is written "shot at such and such a ship from three to seven" then this means that all guns shot at this ship from three to seven. Well, this could not be. Just as it could not be that in the absence of the DUTY to shoot at the specified ship, not a single gunner of the 6-inch artillery of Fuji doubted the effectiveness of his shooting during the period
                        Quote: rytik32
                        and then for half an hour you won't get there even once

                        And did not transfer fire to a more accessible target.
                        I am not trying to explain this to you for one simple reason. You will not accept my explanations. Because by accepting them, you will have to accept the lack of "super-precision" of the Japanese ships in the LM, and this will weaken what you have been trying to prove for a long time - the presence of super-precision among the Japanese in Tsushima.
                      14. 0
                        7 March 2025 22: 48
                        The gunners are quite average in terms of the results of the exercises.

                        Are you sure it was the gunners' fault? If they had determined the distance incorrectly, then the gunners would have been to blame too?

                        Fuji, who performed very poorly in the exercises

                        As a reminder, those exercises were much later.
                        Which were not ORDERED to be shot at, but RECOMMENDED

                        Where did you read about this?
                        they could have used half or even more of their artillery to fire at completely different targets

                        Can you tell me who in this case transmitted the distance to the target and calculated the correction?
                      15. 0
                        8 March 2025 06: 07
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Are you sure it was the gunners' fault? If they had determined the distance incorrectly, then the gunners would have been to blame too?

                        Alexey, really, that's enough already. Are the gunners all blind, in your opinion, and unable to see their own shells falling?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        As a reminder, those exercises were much later.

                        And what was supposed to change fundamentally?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Where did you read about this?

                        I wrote to you in Russian and white
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Remains only suggestthat the ships indicated in the reports were not targets that were to be fired upon from all the ship’s guns at all costs, but only priority targets.

                        An assumption that explains everything - no fantasy.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Can you tell me who in this case transmitted the distance to the target and calculated the correction?

                        The rangefinder post could transmit by analogy with how it was arranged in our country using technology that provided for separate fire at several targets. Or they could do with zeroing in. The correction in those years was calculated directly at the guns.
                      16. 0
                        8 March 2025 19: 24
                        Do you think that the gunners are all blind and unable to see their own shells falling?

                        At long distances - they are not capable. This is one of the conclusions of the battle in ZhM: an officer from Mars should observe the falls of shells.
                        Could transmit rangefinder post

                        Then it is a usual division of fire, which was recorded in the database. For example, it is directly written that "Asahi" divided fire.
                        In those years, the correction was calculated directly at the guns.

                        Calculating the correction is not easy, so at least the group commander did it. Let me remind you that the Japanese took into account the wind, their own speed and the enemy's speed.

                        At the point-blank range, all these adjustments are not needed, so it’s easier there.
                      17. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 05
                        Quote: rytik32
                        At long distances - they are not capable. This is one of the conclusions of the battle in ZhM: an officer from Mars should observe the falls of shells.

                        Incorrect. They are quite capable, but in all cases, and from Mars it is much better to see. In addition, the observer on Mars is not distracted by the control of the guns. Therefore, it is logical to assume that if the Japanese gunner in the LM does not see his falls, he will transfer fire to another ship.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Then it is a usual division of fire, which was recorded in the database. For example, it is directly written that "Asahi" divided fire.

                        I am more than sure that the orders of the starart were recorded in the DB. That is, the division of fire was only recorded there when the starart gave such an order.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Calculating the correction is not easy, so at least the group commander did it. Let me remind you that the Japanese took into account the wind, their own speed and the enemy's speed.

                        And what does this refute in what I wrote? Nothing. The Japanese shared the ship's fire to Tsushima, this was allowed. And taking an amendment is actually not so difficult, these are tabular values.
                      18. 0
                        9 March 2025 00: 04
                        In those years, the correction was calculated directly at the guns.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And what does this refute in what I wrote? Nothing.


                        This refutes
                        In those years, the correction was calculated directly at the guns.

                        The gunner could not calculate the correction. He had neither the knowledge nor the information
                        these are tabular values

                        These values ​​became tabular a little later.
                      19. 0
                        9 March 2025 06: 43
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This refutes

                        No, it doesn't refute. The same group commander was at the guns. And our signs with corrections, if my memory serves me right, were often hung at the guns.
                        Quote: rytik32

                        The gunner could not calculate the correction. He had neither the knowledge nor the information

                        He didn’t need this, the officer did it for him.
                        Alexey, what are you trying to prove?:)))) The Japanese did not centralize fire before Tsushima. Accordingly, they had their own rules for shooting when dividing fire. Why are you trying to prove that this is impossible if the Japanese did it?
                      20. 0
                        9 March 2025 11: 20
                        And if my memory serves me right, our correction signs were often hung near the guns.

                        Only this happened after the RYaV. In the RYaV there were no signs near the guns. The distances were marked on the sight.
                        The sight correction was calculated by the starart or group commander and transmitted by voice or by geissler.
                        The Japanese did not centralize fire until Tsushima

                        Let's say there, group fire control was widely practiced.
                        And by Tsushima they abandoned group fire control, only centralized control.
                      21. 0
                        7 March 2025 14: 51
                        12-dm
                        No. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 12, 17, 18, 20, 21, 24, 26, 27, 32, 33, 36
                        Write down the numbers that you rate differently.
                      22. 0
                        7 March 2025 12: 09
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I don't know where he found it... It's on the Tsushima forum, you can ask

                        And who is he there? I'm not a regular at Tsushima, I just read it sometimes.
                      23. 0
                        7 March 2025 12: 46
                        Eugene
                        Rear Admiral

                        but the last message is 16.08.2021/05/15 23:XNUMX:XNUMX (((
                      24. 0
                        7 March 2025 13: 08
                        Quote: rytik32
                        but the last message is 16.08.2021/05/15 23:XNUMX:XNUMX (((

                        Sorry
                      25. 0
                        8 March 2025 13: 21
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Eugene
                        Rear Admiral

                        but the last message is 16.08.2021/05/15 23:XNUMX:XNUMX (((

                        Somewhere I came across a message that he died several years ago, at a fairly young age.
    3. +3
      6 March 2025 09: 02
      Valentine, good afternoon!
      The numbers are comparable

      I am sure that not all hits, even with 12-inch shells, made it into my memories.
      In addition, Oslyabya received numerous hits from 8-inch shells (Peresvet - most likely not a single one) and many times more from 6-inch shells.
      1. +1
        6 March 2025 15: 07
        Hello, Alexey.

        Quote: rytik32
        I am sure that not all hits, even with 12-inch shells, made it into my memories.

        And I am sure that not all the hits recorded in official documents by observers actually hit the target.
        Don't you think so?

        Quote: rytik32
        In addition, Oslyabya received numerous hits from 8-inch shells.

        How many is "numerous"?
        1. +2
          6 March 2025 15: 16
          Quote: Comrade
          recorded in official documents by observers

          This has nothing to do with the current article. All hits to Oslyabya marked on the diagram were recorded by the Russian side.
          How many is "numerous"?

          You understand perfectly well that it is impossible to count them...
          1. +2
            6 March 2025 16: 28
            Quote: rytik32
            All hits on Oslyabya marked on the diagram were recorded by the Russian side.

            This is not so. They were recorded by different observers, but their compilation is your interpretation. A simple example: most likely, hitting the 1st compartment and the 2nd coal one is the same hit, but you prefer to count them as two, and the shell could easily not hit the 16th hole at all.
            1. +1
              6 March 2025 21: 27
              But we can assume that 2 shells hit the 2nd compartment. And that the 16th UYA and the spare powder chamber are different hits.
              1. +1
                6 March 2025 21: 29
                Yes, it is possible. But this is your interpretation of eyewitness testimony, not eyewitness testimony. What is the essential difference?
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 22: 07
                  Eyewitnesses write about two different holes in the 16th UYA and in the spare powder chamber, and the fact that this is one hole is my interpretation.
                  Eyewitnesses reported three shells in the forward turret, I reported two.
                  Eyewitnesses have 3 shells under the bow turret, I have two.
                  So my interpretation is very pessimistic.
                  For example, Lebedev writes:
                  The first fire was on the upper deck in the waist, where the rostrums were blown away

                  Could it have been a 12-inch shell?

                  The second fire broke out in the living deck near the bakery, where it engulfed an entire department, where I was again sent

                  And it could have been a 12-inch shell?
          2. 0
            6 March 2025 17: 12
            Quote: rytik32
            All hits on Oslyabya marked on the diagram were recorded by the Russian side.

            How did they determine the caliber of the shells that hit?
            Quote: rytik32
            You understand perfectly well that it is impossible to count them.

            You can estimate. Any figure, even an approximate one, is better than emotions.
            1. 0
              6 March 2025 21: 35
              Quote: Comrade
              And how did they determine the caliber of the shells that hit?

              Based on the extent of destruction or eyewitness estimates.
              It can be estimated

              Rate it!
              "Izumo" fired two 2-inch shots at "Orel", and the next 6-inch shells hit the casemate. A total of 8 hits: three 7-inch and four 8-inch shells in just 6 minutes, including the sighting. Then "Izumo" was hit by a 3-inch shell, possibly from "Oslyabya". "Izumo" transferred fire to "Oslyabya" and soon an 6-inch shell destroyed the "Oslyabya" compass platform along with the rangefinders and rangefinder.
              Based on this data, something can be estimated...
              1. 0
                7 March 2025 03: 16
                Hello, Alexey.

                Quote: rytik32
                Based on the extent of destruction or eyewitness estimates.

                Got it. In that case, let me inquire, who on the Oslyaba was so competent, so familiar with the action of Japanese shells, that he could accurately estimate the caliber of the shell that hit?
                Were there Port Arthur people there who had experience in identifying Japanese shells of one caliber or another, or maybe eyewitnesses found shell fragments on the Oslyaba, and they used them to determine the shell caliber?
                Quote: rytik32
                based on this data something can be estimated

                For the right assessment we will need statistics more extensive than those from a couple of individual cases. For example, statistics from the battle of August 1, 1904 will be correct.
            2. 0
              6 March 2025 21: 48
              Quote: Comrade
              How did they determine the caliber of the shells that hit?

              By eye and ear of course. If it bangs hard then it's definitely 12"! wink
              However, I think that 12" was not there at all, an unarmored side and 8" would tear like paper.
              1. 0
                8 March 2025 02: 39
                Quote: Saxahorse
                By eye and ear of course. If it bangs hard then it's definitely 12"!

                And if a 12" "bang" was heard in the bow, and was heard at the stern, and if an 8" "bang" was heard behind the adjacent bulkhead, how can you distinguish the caliber by ear?
  2. +6
    6 March 2025 05: 34
    I look at all sorts of schemes and nowhere can I see Rozhestvensky's "genius". It was precisely the miscalculation at the beginning of the battle that led to such a quick defeat. Well, and the refusal to unload the ships is generally beyond good and evil.
    1. +6
      6 March 2025 06: 38
      Quote: MCmaximus
      I look at all sorts of schemes and nowhere can I see Rozhdestvensky’s “genius”.

      Well, of course, ZPR brilliantly lost the battle to smithereens, allowing the enemy to sink the EBRs, which were impossible to sink with high-explosive shells.
      1. +1
        6 March 2025 06: 40
        The emergency team rowed a passage to the hole

        "Mikasa" had a corridor behind the armor belt, there shouldn't have been any coal there.
        1. +2
          6 March 2025 06: 43
          The emergency party then installed two wooden patches from the outside and secured them with hook bolts.

          Clarification: from the picture it is clear that they were tightened with nuts from the inside.
    2. +1
      6 March 2025 11: 28
      Rozhestvensky made only one mistake - after the fall of Port Arthur, it was necessary to turn back, and not go forward. The 2nd TOE had no chance without the 1st.
      1. +2
        6 March 2025 11: 47
        Quote: TermNachTER
        After the fall of Port Arthur, it was necessary to turn back

        2TOE left late and went around Africa, which clearly indicates that no one planned to make it to Port Arthur before it fell.
        1. 0
          6 March 2025 13: 06
          Well, let's say Port Arthur was surrendered when its defensive capabilities were not yet exhausted. Although the ships in the inner basin were still shot. Overall, the adventure had no chance of a successful outcome.
      2. +4
        6 March 2025 12: 56
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Rozhestvensky was mistaken in only one thing - after the fall of Port Arthur, it was necessary to turn back

        He was not mistaken. He reported this to the management. But - he received an order and was forced to go forward
        1. +2
          6 March 2025 13: 09
          If he had been a Commander, and not an obedient executor, he could at least have resigned. Although, this is a common problem for executors. In 1941, Admiral Philipps led his ships and people to slaughter, although many sensible people said that this should not be done. But he really wanted beautiful gold shoulder straps, orders, a large office in the Admiralty)))
          1. +3
            6 March 2025 13: 45
            Quote: TermNachTER
            If he were a Commander and not an obedient executor, he could at least resign.

            He was a military man and had no right to retreat in such a situation. If he could have known exactly how Tsushima would end, then it would have been a different matter, but from the information he had, he could count on getting to Vladivostok "with the loss of several ships."
            1. 0
              6 March 2025 15: 52
              That's because he was a military man - he shouldn't have led his people to slaughter. He himself said more than once that nothing good would come of it. He couldn't have known that it would end in disaster, but he knew that nothing good would come of it and had to resign.
              1. +3
                6 March 2025 16: 23
                Quote: TermNachTER
                He could not know that it would end in disaster, but he knew that it would not be good and had to resign.

                The question is that the consequences of his resignation would have been... Also catastrophic. If he had resigned then, what would that have changed? There are two options - either they would have appointed another admiral (Felkersam? Nebogatov?) and the squadron would have gone into battle anyway, or they would have appointed no one and the squadron would not have gone.
                If they had appointed another admiral, it would have turned out that Rozhdestvensky was not achieving anything with his resignation, he was only setting up another person who would not necessarily do a better job than he did.
                But if the squadron had been recalled, it would have been a disgrace to the whole world, the reputation of the RIF would have been destroyed. Everyone would have spat at the sailors - the army in the Far East was waiting for their victory, the nation was waiting, and they would have simply fled the battlefield, afraid of the battle. If that had happened, you would have been the first to throw all sorts of filth at the RIF.
                The fleet had no moral right to retreat without trying. And only the Tsar-sovereign could take responsibility for refusing to make such an attempt.
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 18: 18
                  Others could have resigned too, if they lacked the courage to openly declare their disagreement. If Rozhestvensky did better than others could, then tell me, what do you think was worse? And after Tsushima, didn't everyone and their dog spit on the sailors? I wouldn't have spat, you know, I have personal sad experience. After which I swore off commanding others and retired as a senior officer.
                  1. +2
                    6 March 2025 18: 21
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Others could have resigned too if they lacked the courage to openly declare their disagreement.

                    Rozhestvensky openly declared his disagreement. No one listened to him.
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    If Rozhdestvensky did better than others could, then tell me, what do you think was worse?

                    Don't speak from a position of hindsight, but put yourself in Rozhdestvensky's place. I have described the options.
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    And after Tsushima, didn't everyone and their dog spit on the sailors?

                    Nikolay, I don't see any point in continuing here. I wrote to you in plain Russian
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    If he could have known exactly how Tsushima would end, then that would have been a different matter, but from the information he had, he could have counted on getting to Vladivostok “with the loss of several ships.”

                    You ignore this, and you cannot put yourself in Rozhdestvensky’s place, you cannot try to make a choice in his place, guided only by the knowledge that he possessed at that time.
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2025 19: 17
                      He openly declared it - they did not listen to him. He wrote a report of his own free will and left. Fortunately, his length of service and financial situation allowed it.
                      I am not speaking from a position of hindsight. Rozhdestvensky himself said that nothing good would happen.
                      What was Rozhestvensky's confidence based on that he would be able to reach Vladivostok with the loss of several ships? Just on his guesses and assumptions? I was taught in the army - if you plan
                      any event that may have more than two options, start planning from the worst one, then move on to more favorable ones.
                      1. +1
                        6 March 2025 19: 24
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        He openly declared it - they did not listen to him. He wrote a report of his own free will and left. Fortunately, his length of service and financial situation allowed it.

                        If I remember correctly, Semenov talked about something similar in "Payback", but they didn't accept the resignation, and probably "intimidated" him with something or other... And ZPR led the squadron further.
                      2. 0
                        6 March 2025 19: 53
                        What do you mean they didn't accept it? Serfdom?
                      3. +1
                        6 March 2025 19: 49
                        Yes, he had an option!
                        The master class was given by Captain First Rank V.F. Rudnev on January 27.01.1904, XNUMX. He depicted a battle, sank a cruiser without offending the Japanese, and became a rear admiral.
                        It was necessary to stick our nose into the Tsushima Strait, shoot a bit, turn around and run with five fast battleships and cruisers to Tsingtao to disarm. Only the run had to be carefully prepared - overload is unacceptable!
                        An easy victory for the Japanese, salvation + a vacation in the tropics for the Russians, and an understanding attitude for Rozhdestvensky. Only Nebogatov would have to play the same role, but there's nothing to be done about it - kysmet!
                      4. 0
                        6 March 2025 19: 54
                        By the way - a very good option. Of course there are some "rough spots", but it works.
                      5. +1
                        8 March 2025 13: 47
                        What role would Nebogatov have to play?

                        Especially considering that there are three routes to get to Vladivostok: Tsushima, Sangarsky, and Laperuzov.

                        It was Laperuzov that he wanted to go with.
                      6. 0
                        8 March 2025 14: 13
                        Think logically.
                        Only I would do the opposite:
                        I would have let Nebogatov and the "pensioners" into Tsushima, and I would have tried through Sangarsky (less navigational hazards).
                      7. 0
                        8 March 2025 14: 17
                        Sangarsky was closed. There is an article by Polutov on this matter.
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/k-voprosu-o-vozmozhnosti-proryva-eskadry-admirala-rozhestvenskogo-cherez-proliv-tsugaru

                        Well, Russian ships could have easily arrived in Vladivostok if they had been led by Nebogatov rather than Rozhdestvensky.
          2. +1
            6 March 2025 21: 55
            Quote: TermNachTER
            If he were a Commander and not an obedient executor, he could at least resign.

            He tried to resign when he received an order to continue the campaign near Madagascar. His request was personally rejected by Nik.2. ZPR chose the longest route around Africa precisely to be late for P-A. The requirement to continue the fight for the sea turned out to be an unpleasant surprise for him.
            1. 0
              6 March 2025 23: 06
              The draft of the new EBR and Oslyabya did not allow them to pass through the Suez Canal.
              1. +2
                6 March 2025 23: 10
                "Oslyabya" passed through the Suez Canal twice
              2. +1
                6 March 2025 23: 12
                Quote: TermNachTER
                The draft of the new EBR and Oslyabya did not allow them to pass through the Suez Canal.

                The Tsarevich passed through there, and all the Japanese battleships passed through, and they even had a larger draft.
                1. +1
                  7 March 2025 10: 47
                  Were the Japanese and the Tsarevich carrying a full load or a minimum of cargo on board?
                  1. 0
                    7 March 2025 18: 46
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Were the Japanese and the Tsarevich carrying a full load or a minimum of cargo on board?

                    What does "fully loaded" mean? smile
                    Our captains were born kulaks, they tried to fill the ship with everything that might be useful someday, from spare parts to food and logs with boards. The Tsarevich took off the boats, unloaded some of the coal, poured out a huge (just in case) supply of fresh water and redistributed the other supplies around the hull to even out the trim. We passed normally. I don’t know the details about the Japanese, but in principle it was enough to enter with a minimum supply of coal, fortunately, right behind the canal, in Djibouti, there is a large coal base.
                    1. 0
                      7 March 2025 20: 06
                      "Tsesarevich" had a normal draft of 7,9 m, it was towed through the canal by tugs - as empty as possible. I think "Oslyabya" was the same. The Japanese had a normal draft of 8,3 m. When fully unloaded, I think it was somewhere around 7,5 m. "Kn. Suvorov" had a normal draft of 8,9 m, with additional cargo - more than 9 m. "Oslyabya" - 8,8 m, when overloaded more than 9 m.
                      1. 0
                        8 March 2025 02: 20
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Prince Suvorov" had a normal draft of 8,9 m.

                        Don't make things up. All Borodino ships had a construction overload of 500-600 tons. This is an additional 10 inches of draft, no more (0.24 m), totaling 8.15 m with normal supplies. A draft of 8.9 m is already jam-packed, with an armor belt below the waterline, this is the draft Borodino had in Revel at the beginning of the campaign. The British deepened the canal specifically to allow their new 15000-ton battleships to pass through there with the corresponding draft. It was enough to unload all the supplies that were stuffed into the Russian battleships onto the transports and limit the coal supply. They will pass without problems.
                      2. 0
                        8 March 2025 13: 23
                        Please provide links: 1. Where did the draft of the "Borodintsev" come from?
                        2. Where did this come from, when and to what depth did the British deepen the Suez Canal?
                      3. +1
                        8 March 2025 19: 34
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Where did the draft of the Borodinets come from?

                        Revel reports. RGA VMF fund 315 inventory 1 file 1067
                        to what depth did the british deepen the suez canal

                        see Suez Canal Navigation Rules 1902
                      4. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Please provide links:

                        Dear Rytik, just above gave links to documents. Of the more accessible sources, we can offer Gribovsky's "Squadron battleships of the Borodino type". For the Suez Canal, look in the encyclopedia of F.A. Brockhaus and I.A. Efron. Initially, the depth of the canal was 8 meters, somewhere in 1885, after the change of administration (the British squeezed the canal for themselves) they began to deepen it and by 1895 it was 9 meters, and by the beginning of WWI 12-13 meters. Now 20 meters.
                      5. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 11
                        According to Gribovsky, the draft of the "Borodinets" is 8,8 m, and this is not yet the maximum load. Maximum with overload - VI 16,2 kt - draft more than 9 m, i.e. they could not pass through. What the British did in WWI is of no interest to us. Who in their right mind would drive five battleships around Africa if there was an opportunity to pass through the canal?
                      6. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        According to Gribovsky, the draft of the "Borodinets" is 8,8 m, and this is not yet the maximum load.

                        Gribovsky is very clear. The design draft is 7.9 m, overload is 500-600 tons. And we see 8.9 m in Revel at the same Gribovsky, i.e. this is a draft with double overload.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Who in their right mind would sail five battleships around Africa if they could go through the canal?

                        Rozhestvensky, of course! It has been hinted at twenty times that he was planning the route in the hope of being late and returning to St. Petersburg without a fight. The order to continue the campaign came as a shock to him, although he himself had pushed aside Skrydlov, striving to become the squadron commander. The goal, again, is on the surface - to receive the rank of vice-admiral ahead of schedule. He had finished off Nikolashka, that was why he had delayed the departure, and afterwards he had completely lost interest in the campaign.
                      7. 0
                        8 March 2025 21: 36
                        Melnikov had a construction overload of 13% of 13 tons, 500 tons, and a draft of 1750 m. This is considered normal; when overloaded, the VI reached 8,82 kt, and the draft was more than 16,2 m. Who would have allowed Rozhdestvensky to act on his own? He had many superiors above him, including the Tsar.
                      8. 0
                        9 March 2025 14: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        construction overload 13% of 13 t., 500 t., draft 1750 m.

                        With such an overload, the armor belt will initially be underwater. Who would accept such a battleship into service? You are confusing it with a full load. Once again: look at the documents, the draft in Revel with a double overload is 8.9 meters. It can be unloaded to the design 7.9 m without any removal of weapons and ammunition (Andrey fantasized about this here).
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        He had many superiors above him, including the king.

                        Avelan and the Tsar were above the ZPR. That's all.
                        By the way, you will laugh, but a third route was also considered, via the Pacific Ocean. And they rejected it not because it was even longer, but because Ginsburg could not provide coal carriers, between South America and Australia it is completely empty, there are no coal bases and places for loading.

                        In general, be thankful that he didn’t go not only around Africa, but also around Australia, otherwise he would have thrown out fishing rods about the danger of the Strait of Malacca. wassat
                      9. 0
                        9 March 2025 15: 25
                        And it was under water. If we had been left behind by the "Borodinites" - what would we have been left with? Even if they had been even worse - there was nowhere to go. Yes, if we unloaded all the cargo, we could have reduced the draft to about 8,5 m. But can you imagine the amount of work? First unload everything, and then load it - it's easier to go around Africa.
                        And what about the general - admiral Alexey Alexandrovich? A nobody at all and no name?
                        In hindsight, we can come up with the idea that we were going to go along the NSR. Who can stop us from fantasizing?
                      10. +1
                        9 March 2025 16: 17
                        See my article https://topwar.ru/258592-o-nepotopljaemosti-bronenosca-osljabja.html
                        All the data is there.
                        "Eagle" in Revel had a draft of 28ft 7d. To pass through the Suez Canal it needs 26ft 3d. That is, it needs to rise 28 inches to remove 1495 tons of cargo.
                        This means that the operational overload must be removed and 56 tons of coal must be left.
                        What's so overwhelming and takes many days???
                        You can time it so that you won’t even have to unload anything.
                      11. 0
                        9 March 2025 17: 32
                        Have you ever loaded (unloaded) coal? I had to do it in my grandmother's village, at +30. And if you add to this that you would have to unload from the battleship's coal pits, where it is very warm and there is a lot of fresh air))) and how long would it take? And then the reverse process. And where did you get the data on the depths of the Suez Canal? As far as I know, the British carried out serious dredging there, before WWI, for obvious reasons. Before that, no one cared, because there were still supertankers.
                      12. 0
                        9 March 2025 19: 15
                        that would have to be unloaded from the battleship's coal pits

                        Why unload? It would be possible to calculate in order to reach the required amount of coal.
                        If you need to unload something, it’s easier to launch boats and take them in tow.

                        And where did you get the data on the depths of the Suez Canal?

                        You already asked above, and I answered.
                      13. 0
                        9 March 2025 20: 25
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Have you ever loaded (unloaded) coal? I had to do it in my grandmother's village

                        The Soviet standard for loaders is 20 tons per hour. (for sacks). It's hard but quite possible. Togo was standing at the base with double the coal reserves, in case he had to rush north to the Sungari Strait. They dumped all the extra coal in two hours while moving to the Tsushima Strait.
                      14. 0
                        10 March 2025 00: 02
                        20 tons is a third of a railway car))) a 50 kg bag - 400 bags. 3600 seconds divided by 400 gives 9 seconds per bag. First you have to pour coal into the bag, then walk with it a few meters, then pour it out. Isn't it funny to you?
                        Togo used not only crews but also dockers when loading (unloading). If you gathered dockers from all nearby ports, you could clear everything out in an hour.
                      15. 0
                        10 March 2025 08: 59
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        You yourself are not funny?

                        Yeah, I got carried away. laughing
                        20 tons per shift, 7 hours per shift. The battleship's crew is about 800 people, if that matters.
  3. +5
    6 March 2025 06: 43
    Thank you, Alexey, for the wonderful series of articles about the unfortunate "Oslyabya".
    I absolutely agree with the "Three Components" you have outlined, BUT!
    The main reason is the personality of the commander of the Second Pacific Squadron Z.P. Rozhestvensky, who:
    1) He did not carry out the appropriate preparation of the squadron entrusted to him for battle.
    2) Did not achieve coherence in the combat column when performing maneuvers.
    3) Did not even attempt to seize the initiative at the beginning of the battle, but gave the Enemy the opportunity to freely maneuver and concentrate fire at his own discretion.
    So even with the measures taken to unload the battleship Oslyabya, it was still doomed in the Battle of Tsushima.
  4. -6
    6 March 2025 08: 10
    Aleksey Rytik's erroneous version of the reasons for the death of the battleship Oslyabya. In fact, it was not overload that killed her, but completely different reasons. Firstly: as I have stated before - in the Battle of Tsushima the Japanese used completely different - much more powerful high-explosive shells than in the battle in the Yellow Sea. They probably changed both the technology for producing melenite and the settings of the fuses - and mainly for their large-caliber shells. But all this was then strictly classified and still remains absolutely unknown to naval historians. Because all the documentary data lying in the Japanese archives after Japan's defeat in World War II was ROBBED by the Americans and they transported mountains of Japanese documents to the AMERICAN ARCHIVES, where they lie quietly to this day, but no one has any access to the Japanese documents - not even the Americans themselves. And so Alexey Rytik and many other Russian historians deceive readers by saying that there were no changes in Japanese shells between the ZhM and Tsushima - after all, there are no documents about this at all! But in fact, at Tsushima, the force of explosion of Japanese shells and the area of ​​holes created by them increased many times. That is why Oslyabya sank, and Peresvet and Pobeda stayed afloat in the ZhM.
    The second factor that A. Rytik does not take into account is the rough sea on the day of Tsushima, the waves were 8 feet high = 2,4 m - that is, equal to the interdeck distance. This means that whether there was an overload or not, the waves would still roll above the armor belt, and if we also take into account that the size and area of ​​the holes were large.
    And the third factor that Rytik does not take into account is that all Japanese shells hit the bow of Oslyabya. This caused a large trim - so much so that midshipman Shcherbachev from Orel could see the entire stern of Oslyabya. And because of the trim, the entire front part of the armor belt of Oslyabya went deep under the stern and it turned out to be practically unarmored. The mistake of shipbuilders around the world who used the "All or Nothing" armor system in relation to Oslyabya is that they always believed that enemy shells would equally hit the bow and the stern and there would be no trim.
    1. +3
      6 March 2025 13: 33
      I'm afraid to ask: was it by any chance a nuclear weapon? What secret could there be in the explosives?
      1. -2
        6 March 2025 18: 35
        Well, first of all, you are greatly exaggerating about nuclear explosives, hoping to deceive naive and gullible readers by saying that if it is impossible to increase the explosion force of Japanese explosives up to nuclear, then it means that no increase in the explosion force is possible at all. We are talking about a possible increase in the force of Japanese explosives by a certain number of times - let's say by 1,5-2,0-3,0 times. If you don't know the simplest things, then, for example, TNT explodes 10% weaker than shimosa. And how much weaker does each kilogram of WET pyroxylin with 30% humidity explode? But nitroglycerin, invented about two hundred years ago, seems to be still the most powerful explosive.
        Did you know that the Japanese mixed aluminum powder and maybe other substances into melinite, which probably greatly increased the force of the explosion? And do you or anyone else here on the forum know the exact composition of shimosa? No, of course, everyone knows that melinite is picric acid, but it is likely that special substances - phlegmatizers - were mixed into pure picrine, which increased the resistance of picrine to shocks during impacts. But it is quite possible that the Japanese changed the amount of phlegmatizers during the war. And this could have changed the force of the explosion.
        And so I assume that all this data is not exactly known to anyone, because at first it was in classified archives, and then all these documents were stolen by an American. And what could be secret there? Yes, absolutely everything.
        You probably didn't notice a piece in the comments from the discussion to the previous article by two people: Rytik and AleksandrA, in which they heatedly argue about the qualities
        French and English explosives of the WWI era, and their discussion began from the beginning of the shimoza. BUT what does WWI and English and French explosives have to do with it? Both of these comrades, of course, do not admit it, but it is certain that they know NOTHING FOR SURE about the composition of JAPANESE explosives, and that is why they launched into a discussion of French and English.
        So you don't believe that the Japanese changed the composition of their explosive forces from the battle in ZhM to Tsushima. But Rytik has data that these changes took place, and Rytik posted this data, but no one except me noticed it - not even Rytik himself.
        1. +2
          6 March 2025 21: 37
          Quote: geniy
          they know NOTHING FOR RELIABLY about the composition of JAPANESE explosives

          I have the results of a study in Russia of two samples of Japanese shimoza: from a shell and from a sea mine.
          1. -1
            6 March 2025 22: 28
            [b]Rytik. It is of course simply wonderful that you have the results of a RUSSIAN study of two samples of shimoza. I am happy for you. But I will explain to the other readers what a whole suitcase of deceptions is hidden here.
            First of all, these are RUSSIAN studies, not Japanese ones. You may ask - what's the difference? How are Russian ones worse than Japanese ones?
            Yes, as I claim, there are no Japanese documents at all - they were all stolen long ago. Therefore, a trick question - please provide data from Japanese documents from the Japanese archive. I hope you understand that I do not need this information at all - this is simply a test of honesty.
            Secondly: the results of testing two types of explosives do not provide information, because in sea mines, as a rule, more sensitive explosives are used. For example, in mines of the Second World War, it was not TNT that was used, but MS - Marine Mixture.
            Thirdly: if you remember our argument was about the fact that Japanese explosives of two periods of the battle in ZhM and in Tsushima, in my opinion, were very different from each other. But you have only one type of projectile explosive - which means that it is impossible to compare or prove anything in this regard.
            Fourthly, I assume that the explosives from the Japanese shell are most likely from a Japanese 280 caliber bomb from the shelling of Port Arthur - of which about a thousand were found unexploded. And the explosives from land shells could be very different from those from ships.
            And fifthly, I'm just curious: do you have any tests of the explosives of Russian shells - wet pyroxylin? I hope that neither you nor other readers will think that I want to get some information from you - this is just a test of your honesty.
            1. +1
              7 March 2025 01: 17
              Quote: geniy
              So, a trick question - please provide data from Japanese documents from the Japanese archive.

              Catch!
              https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/meta/listPhoto?LANG=default&BID=F2013080215413002908&ID=M2013080215413102928&REFCODE=C13072063500
              1. -2
                7 March 2025 09: 08
                Dear Alexey!
                Please understand me correctly. Although you seem to be giving answers
                , but IN JAPANESE!! The thing is that I am currently participating in a scientific and technical competition, the deadline for which is in the next few days, and I want to write dozens of proposals for this competition - a large number of different texts, and I clearly do not have time. These are, of course, my personal problems.
                and I believe that this participation in the competition could become a huge change in the life of all humanity.
                But all these squabbles on the forum - I am also very interested, but at the same time they distract from very important matters. But on the other hand, I still can't concentrate on one thing and find some minute to answer someone, and you personally too.
                And besides, I have additional difficulties - the mouse does not work well and I can't copy. And most importantly - I am quite weak in languages, and I don't know how to translate from JAPANESE. Therefore, although I accept the texts you sent with gratitude - but now they are as if they were written in a Martian language for me - I can see them, but I have no desire to translate them due to lack of time. I will leave this matter for some other time.
                But I inform you and all other readers, although at first glance the respected Alexey Rytik sent some materials in the true Japanese language, I cannot read them and check their content for relation to the RYaV. If any of the readers of the forum even briefly (like me) looked through these Japanese documents, they can immediately notice that they are all dated very late: the earliest document is from 1942, and then, it seems, 1943 and 1946, 1947, 1950, 1968 and so on. Do all these documents have any relation to the Russo-Japanese War and the Battle of Tsushima?
                Let me remind readers of the essence of our discussion and my assumptions: this means that during the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area War, Japanese naval shells demonstrated very poor armor penetration, especially during the Battle of Tsushima. At the same time, during the battle in the ZhM, Japanese shells sometimes (very rarely) penetrated Russian armor - and then the power of their explosion increased, but armor penetration worsened. And therefore, I assume that indignant Japanese officers began sending mountains of letters to their admirals, and they organized a commission to check their shells, and also conducted field tests, from which mountains of documents were also left. and then the Japanese may have changed the technology for making shimoza and again conducted field tests, and again mountains of Japanese documents dated naturally to 1904-1905, and not at all to 1968. So I appeal to all history buffs and not just to Alexey Rytik: please clarify the essence of the texts of those Japanese documents that Alexey Rytik sent - if anyone has the time and desire to translate at least a little from Japanese.
                And also write, why dozens of Russian military historians, having this huge information, practically use nothing from it? Let me remind you of their names: Suliga, Kofman, Cherkasov, Arbuzov, Balakin, Beklemishev, Belov, Bunich, Gribovsky, Dotsenko, Zolotarev, Koksinsky, Krestyaninov, Lisitsyn.
                1. +2
                  7 March 2025 09: 24
                  Quote: geniy
                  Although you seem to be giving answers
                  , but IN JAPANESE!!

                  In what language do you think a Japanese archival document should be?
                  1. -2
                    7 March 2025 09: 31
                    The issue is not that these documents are in Japanese. The issue is that 120 years have passed since the Russian Revolution of XNUMX, and during this enormous period, thousands of military history experts would have long ago translated from Japanese first into English and then into all other world languages: French, Spanish, German, and even Russian!
                    Do you want to convince me that in one hundred and twenty years, not a single person in the entire world has been found who could translate the most interesting texts from this Martian language?
                    And most importantly, why are almost all of them dated back to the years AFTER the Second World War?
                    1. +1
                      7 March 2025 09: 46
                      Quote: geniy
                      Do you want to convince me that in one hundred and twenty years, not a single person in the entire world has been found who could translate the most interesting texts from this Martian language?

                      The whole world is waiting for you
                      1. -1
                        7 March 2025 09: 54
                        The whole world is waiting for you

                        What - has the whole world really been waiting for me for 120 years and no one has bothered to translate those Japanese documents - not even you?
                        I have been explaining to other readers for a long time that this forum, and in particular the Tsushima discussion, is full of deceivers who are trying in every possible way to obscure the situation and hide the truth from the people.
                        and a question for Alexey R: could you please clarify why the documents you sent have such a strange date: instead of 1904, all the documents are dated AFTER the SECOND World War.
                        and the second question to you: did YOU personally try to translate these documents? Checking honesty.
                      2. +1
                        7 March 2025 09: 56
                        These documents are not dated 1904, but relate to the interwar period (between WWI and WWII). I did not attempt to translate.
                        I got this document from a link in Koike Shigeki's article about shimoza. He has everything written down. The article is in Japanese, and in Russian.
                      3. -1
                        7 March 2025 10: 13
                        Well, why are you trying to deceive again? The documents you sent are not dated at all from the interwar period between WWI and WWII, but almost all of them are AFTER WORLD WAR II!
                        You personally probably read the article by that Shigeki, but why has NOBODY bothered to publish it on any RUSSIAN portal? What - is no one interested in this?
                        Well, actually, a lot becomes clear from your answer. The other stupid readers, of course, will not notice that Shigeoki wrote about SHIMOZA, but I am interested in the topic of armor penetration of Japanese shells. That is, in addition to producing explosives, they then put them in a shell, and put a sheet of some armor on it and shoot. And they immediately see: did the shell penetrate the armor or not, and what was the force of the explosion. And all the documentation about these range shots is sent to the archive. So I ask you (just to check your honesty, because I am sure that your task is to hide the truth) - what did you learn from Shigeoki's article about how the range tests were conducted and what their results were. And the shimoza explosive itself interests me little.
                        And I think that this question is INTERESTING ABSOLUTELY for all Russian readers, but for some reason no one knows anything about it. And you personally are hiding this information, - or the documents you sent simply do not contain any information that is interesting to society.
                      4. +1
                        7 March 2025 10: 16
                        and almost all of them AFTER WORLD WAR II

                        Don't lie to me!

                        NOBODY bothered to publish it on any RUSSIAN portal?

                        It was published in printed form a long time ago
                        It contains information, including about armor tests.
                      5. 0
                        7 March 2025 20: 24
                        [quote][quote] [/quote][/quoа almost all of them AFTER WORLD WAR II
                        Don't lie to me!
                        te]
                        Who's lying?
                        Didn't you look at the documents you sent me? The first of the twenty documents is dated 1940, and the last one is dated 1989. So what does this mean: if we believe you, then the Japanese supposedly began studying Tsushima in 1940 and finished studying it in 1989?
                      6. 0
                        7 March 2025 22: 56
                        Quote: geniy
                        The first of the twenty documents is dated 1940.

                        These are page numbers )))
                      7. 0
                        7 March 2025 20: 28
                        NOBODY bothered to publish it on any RUSSIAN portal?
                        It was published in printed form a long time ago
                        It contains information, including about armor tests.

                        Let me explain for the rest of the readers: what Alexey calls the word LONG AGO - well, in Russia it is a long time ago - the publication took place in 2017 - that is, more than a hundred YEARS AFTER TSUSHIMA!
                        And before this period, was it really true that no historian was interested in the topic of data from Japanese archives?
                2. 0
                  7 March 2025 18: 54
                  Quote: geniy
                  And also write, why dozens of Russian military historians, having this huge information, practically use nothing from it? Let me remind you of their names: Suliga, Kofman, Cherkasov, Arbuzov, Balakin, Beklemishev, Belov, Bunich, Gribovsky, Dotsenko, Zolotarev, Koksinsky, Krestyaninov, Lisitsyn.

                  Some people are no longer in this world... That's one.
                  Second: in order to use information in a foreign language, you need to know the language at least at an intermediate level in order to understand the meaning of what is written... The subtleties of terminology can be clarified with the help of specialized dictionaries.
                  Thirdly, and most importantly, there are very few good Japanologists in our country.
                  1. 0
                    7 March 2025 19: 42
                    I still haven't managed to copy your English nickname.
                    But of course you are again trying to mislead me and all other readers. So, you think that many Russian military historians did not write in detail about the topic of shimoza in the Japanese fleet because these writers simply died.
                    I answer: But they lived a long life and wrote many books - for example Melnikov, Bunich, and many historians are still alive! But why did none of them turn to the Japanese archives during their long lives? After all, the topic of shimoza was the main one in the Russo-Japanese War? Do you think that we have few Japanologists? But surely in a hundred years at least one Japanologist could have been found - at least from among the diplomats? But of course I consider your latest excuse to be a common deception.
                    1. 0
                      7 March 2025 20: 10
                      Quote: geniy
                      But of course I consider your latest excuse to be a common deception.

                      As you wish... hi
        2. 0
          7 March 2025 02: 57
          Then what the hell, Japanese shells didn't explode properly in WWII! They were supposed to just tear the Americans apart. Everyone switched to weak TNT, and then the Japanese forgot about such a wonder weapon.
          And it has already been written about pyroxylin. It was filled with water for better detonation.
          1. 0
            7 March 2025 19: 31
            Maxim - I apologize for the big delay - I already have to write answers to 3 authors. Here you ask a question: why did Japanese shells not explode or explode poorly in WWII, while for decades they exploded perfectly. I could answer you and everyone, but you understand the main thing that in principle this question should not be answered by some home-grown expert, but by an official Japanese structure of a fairly high rank. That is: even at the stage of accepting each new type of shell through many range shots. and if at least one shell does not explode, then a huge scandal in the Japanese military department is inevitable. And now think about it for yourself, you and all other readers: after all, there is a reliable fact that many Japanese shells DID NOT EXPLODE in WWII! And have you heard of the huge scandals on this matter.
            I would like to talk about wet Russian pyroxylin separately from the Japanese topic - I think you are very much mistaken.
    2. +2
      6 March 2025 17: 52
      Quote: geniy
      Erroneous version of Alexey Rytik

      When will we finally know your correct version of all events?
    3. +1
      6 March 2025 19: 28
      Quote: geniy
      Because all the documentary data that lay in the Japanese archives after Japan's defeat in World War II was ROBBED by the Americans and they transported mountains of Japanese documents to the AMERICAN ARCHIVES, where they lie quietly to this day, but no one has any access to the Japanese documents - not even the Americans themselves.

      Have you never heard of USNTMJ?
      1. -1
        6 March 2025 19: 30
        I haven't heard, but I can guess what you mean. Confirm your opinion.
        1. +2
          6 March 2025 19: 31
          Quote: geniy
          I haven't heard, but I can guess what you mean. Confirm your opinion.

          So what am I talking about?
          1. -2
            6 March 2025 19: 33
            If you play with riddles - then I have no time for your nonsense. And I can ask such questions myself, both to you and to anyone. For example - tell me the exact composition of shimoza, confirmed by documentary data from the Japanese archive.
            1. +1
              6 March 2025 19: 42
              Quote: geniy
              If you play with riddles, then I have no time for your nonsense. And I can ask such questions myself, both to you and to anyone.

              Ask, but keep one thing in mind...
              Since you refuse to answer the questions asked of you, no one can force me or other participants in the discussion to answer yours.

              As for shimoza... The formula is in the attachment.
              And prove me wrong. laughing
              1. -2
                6 March 2025 19: 53
                I can't have any discussion with you, I understood your nature long ago. And the fact that I am answering you now - I am simply sitting at the computer and snatching up some minutes. And the fact that you allegedly answered - I inform the other readers that this is most likely an ordinary deception. The point is that almost any explosive - even if it is a pure chemical substance - is still often a mixture of the main substance and additional additives - probably phlegmatizers. And in shimoza there were probably these same phlegmatizers - for example, I think dinitronaphthalene. And in this formula you cited a chemically PURE substance. This is where your deception lies. And naive readers will believe it. And I demand an answer about JAPANESE explosives based on data from documents in Japanese archives, which in principle cannot exist - because the Japanese archives were robbed.
                But of course don't bother to answer - I don't expect any answer from you. I am absolutely sure that you are a liar.
                1. +4
                  6 March 2025 19: 54
                  Quote: geniy
                  I am absolutely sure that you are a liar.

                  As you wish... hi
  5. +2
    6 March 2025 08: 39
    Alexey, I want to congratulate you on the end of the cycle. You have done a great job. And you really managed to debunk one of the important myths - the myth about the great overload of the "Oslyabya", for which I thank you very much.
    However, regarding the other “myths”... You write about the quality of construction
    Thirdly, the poor quality of the case's manufacture was one of the reasons for its rapid demise.

    The quality of construction is a very complex issue, which is not at all exhausted by water resistance tests. Therefore, the fact that "Oslyabya" passed such tests... only testifies to the fact that it passed these tests. And not to the quality of its construction.
    The second is that he was killed by two 12-inch shells that made holes near the waterline.

    Unfortunately, your final article is missing the main point. You state that the reason for the death of the Oslyabya was
    1) Overload
    2) A large number of hits
    And then you prove that there was an overload and a large number of hits. This evidence can be argued with, the assessment of hits by the amount of artillery withdrawn is, forgive me, very biased. But I will not do this, because this evidence of yours is not the point.
    The point is that you not only have not proven, but you have not even shown the most important thing - that the two factors you indicated could have led to the death of the Oslyabya in the form in which it was observed from our ships.You do not explain at all how it happened that the Oslyabya had a large trim before its destruction, for example, which hits from those you listed could have led to it and why.
    Accordingly, as a "salverda" I am now preparing a series of articles on the "Oslyaba", which will examine both the quality of its construction and the reasons that led to its destruction.
    1. 0
      6 March 2025 09: 00
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      You really managed to debunk one of the important myths - the myth about the great overload of the Oslyabya, for which I thank you very much.

      Is it just me or is Andrey confused about something? Where in the article did Rytik refute the existence of overload? Andrey, you should reread the article. wassat
      1. +2
        6 March 2025 11: 08
        Quote: Saxahorse
        At what point in the article did Rytik deny the existence of overload?

        We are talking about construction overload. If you are unable to understand this, it is not my problem.
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Andrey, you should reread the article.

        Better read it yourself
        Three ingrained myths about Oslyaba have not been confirmed.
        The first is that the battleship had a construction overload of 1 tons..
        1. +1
          6 March 2025 21: 27
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Better read it yourself

          How cunning you are, though! wassat

          Are you still trying to push your lie about the Russian squadron not being overloaded? I remember your fabulous articles on this very topic.

          So the core of this article is precisely overloading, as the first and main factor in the rapid death of the battleship Oslyabya.

          1. High overload, which negatively affected its unsinkability.

          It is with this point in Alexey Rytik’s series that I completely agree!
    2. +2
      6 March 2025 13: 00
      Andrei, good afternoon!
      Which of the hits you listed could have led to it and why?

      in the previous article I write about the increase in trim as a consequence of hitting the 2nd compartment of the living deck

      Through a hole in the 2nd compartment of the living deck, the water that flooded the bow of the ship began to freely communicate with the sea, which dealt a terrible blow to the unsinkability of the Oslyabya.

      According to the observations of O. A. Shcherbachev, the battleship sank "up to the hawse holes" and received a list of 12...15 degrees to the left side.
      1. +1
        6 March 2025 13: 47
        Quote: rytik32
        in the previous article I write about the increase in trim as a consequence of hitting the 2nd compartment of the living deck

        And we found out that no reasonable volume of water on it could have seated Oslyabya up to the hawse holes.
        1. +1
          6 March 2025 14: 06
          We considered the consequences of a hole in the 1st compartment of the living deck, when the compartments were not yet connected to the sea.
          1. +2
            6 March 2025 14: 36
            Quote: rytik32
            We considered the consequences of a hole in the 1st compartment of the living deck, when the compartments were not yet connected to the sea.

            If after that conversation you still believe that such a trim is possible with only the flooding of the living deck with minimal water penetration under the armor... Well, as you know. You have expressed your point of view, and I am ready to respect it. But I myself hold a different one.
            I think we will continue this discussion in the comments to my articles that are currently being written. If, of course, you wish so. hi
            1. +1
              6 March 2025 17: 07
              you think that such a trim is possible with only the flooding of the living deck with minimal water penetration under the armor... we will continue this discussion in the comments to my articles, which are being written now

              Hello, dear Andrey, haven't you had these before? It seems to me that this diagram is from there... or am I mistaken?
              Or will this be a new "approach to the projectile")) since many unknowns remain.
              1. +2
                6 March 2025 17: 58
                Quote: anzar
                It seems to me that this diagram is from there... or am I wrong?

                No, this is not my scheme:)))
                Quote: anzar
                Or will this be a new "approach to the projectile"))

                At one time I put forward some substantiated theses, including that the Oslyabya was destroyed literally by 2-3 hits from 12-inch shells and by poor quality construction, which is why the Oslyabya's bow compartments below the armored deck suffered uncontrolled flooding.
                Alexey expressed a different point of view in his articles, he proves that the construction of Oslyabya was quite good, that there were no strong floods below the armored deck of Oslyabya, and that the flooding of the living deck was enough for her to perish. In my opinion, he is mistaken, and since the publication of the articles on the causes of the death of Oslyabya, new materials have appeared at my disposal. Therefore, the articles that I am writing now can be considered a continuation and deepening of my old work, or they can be considered as an opposition to Alexey.
    3. +1
      9 March 2025 05: 10
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      As a "salverda", I am currently preparing a series of articles on the Oslyaba, which will examine both the quality of its construction and the reasons that led to its destruction.

      Oh, this is it!!!
  6. +2
    6 March 2025 09: 10
    The article is interesting, many thanks to the author!
    There are several comments - the report of Almaz, which many refer to, is very approximate and does not reflect the actual loading of the ships with coal. This was clearly proven by Zhemchug - who suddenly "discovered" a reserve of coal sufficient for the passage to Manila, Izumrud - they write that they unloaded a lot more coal from the blown up ship onto the shore than the commander expected. The reason is that in the morning reports the commanders reflected only the speculative consumption of coal per day, they did not check this by measuring the coal pits. And the complex shape of the pits did not contribute to this.

    Well, the scheme of the beginning of the battle proposed by Rytik raises serious doubts. In all the testimonies of Russian officers, the ZPR turn to the left is noted to reorganize into one column. On the scheme proposed by the author, on the contrary, the right column turns to the right and Oslyabya leads its column separately, supposedly to overtake. The Japanese schemes could hardly explain this point accurately, they are too reminiscent of morning intelligence reports. It is quite possible that the captains continued to draw the arrangement of Russian ships in two columns as intelligence reported to them in a radiogram.

    I would like to examine in more detail the flooding of the 10th and 16th coal pits. They may have significantly increased the list, causing the ship to capsize. By the way, it is possible that the reports of armor plates falling off refer specifically to these hits.
    1. +1
      6 March 2025 21: 01
      Almaz's report, which many refer to, is very approximate in nature

      That's right. On the "Orel" the discrepancies reached 400 tons, on the "Borodino" - a little less, and on the "Alexander", perhaps even more - the memoirs contain different data.
      And the funniest thing is that the coal reserves of "Almaz" itself are not broken. Chagin writes 560 tons, and in Dyachkov's table 476 tons.

      I would like to separately examine in more detail the flooding of the 10th and 16th coal pits.

      I have provided everything I could in the article. I have no other data.

      It is possible that the reports of armor plates falling off refer specifically to these hits

      Ask yourself: how could the fallen slabs be seen from inside the ship?
      1. 0
        6 March 2025 21: 34
        Quote: rytik32
        I have provided everything I could in the article. I have no other data.

        Here, the flooding of the ammunition cellar was alarming. As we found out in the discussion earlier, they are located very interestingly, inside the coal pit. That is, they cannot be flooded by damaging the frames and other cracks at the side, only from above, through hatches and elevators. And this cannot be achieved with one breach in the armor. Explosions of shells directly on the armor deck are needed.

        Quote: rytik32
        Ask yourself: how could the fallen slabs be seen from inside the ship?

        For example, seeing a huge hole in the unarmored plating. By the way, some of the officers from other ships also mentioned the fallen off plate.
        1. 0
          6 March 2025 21: 48
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Here the flooding of the ammunition cellar was alarming.

          Look at the diagrams, the spare powder room is not an ordinary cellar

          And this cannot be achieved with one hole in the armor.

          If the shell exploded above the slope and the fragments penetrated through the coal feed pipe and the wall, then everything fits together.

          For example, seeing a huge hole in the unarmored plating

          Through the coal pit and the bulkhead of the side corridor?
          1. 0
            6 March 2025 22: 27
            Quote: rytik32
            If the shell exploded above the slope and the fragments penetrated through the coal feed pipe and the wall, then everything fits together.

            How did it explode if the armor was in place? Japanese shells were not able to penetrate armor and explode. But if the armor falls off, then please.

            Quote: rytik32
            Through the coal pit and the bulkhead of the side corridor?

            And no one will even look into the on-board corridor?
            1. 0
              6 March 2025 22: 29
              Quote: Saxahorse
              How did it explode if the armor was in place?

              Like on Pobeda

              And no one will even look into the on-board corridor?

              No, of course not. It would never even occur to anyone. People usually found out about flooded corridors after the battle, when they started checking them.
              1. 0
                6 March 2025 22: 41
                Quote: rytik32
                Like on Pobeda

                The only and unique case during the entire war. By the way, I'm not sure that it exploded there. I read that it pierced because the fuse failed.

                Quote: rytik32
                No, of course not. It would never even occur to anyone. People usually found out about flooded corridors after the battle, when they started checking them.

                How do you think the holes were patched up? You yourself described in the article how the Japanese did it in a very interesting way. The corridors were made to provide access to the side. Even on wooden battleships they were already there for this very purpose.
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 22: 44
                  he exploded there

                  It exploded and the fragments flew apart, but weakly, apparently an incomplete rupture.

                  I read that it was broken because the fuse failed.

                  This is on "Siso"

                  How do you think the holes were repaired?

                  If the water does not flow further, then it is sealed at the dock.
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2025 22: 47
                    Quote: rytik32
                    If the water does not flow further, then it is sealed at the dock.

                    It can't help but leak, because the corridor bulkheads are not armored. You yourself described how the Japanese crews fought for the ship's survivability in these very corridors.
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2025 22: 48
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Japanese teams fought for the ship's survivability in these very corridors

                      There were no corridors, you can see it on the diagrams
                      1. 0
                        6 March 2025 22: 55
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There were no corridors, you can see it on the diagrams

                        How is that? Let's look at the diagram, for example: "Battleship Mikasa. Diagram of patching up the hole in the senior mechanic's cabin". It is the corridor that is depicted here. The same on the next one. laughing
                      2. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 03
                        And where is your corridor on the diagram below?
                      3. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 10
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And where is your corridor on the diagram below?

                        What's wrong with this picture? Are you not sure that this is a corridor?
                      4. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 14
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Are you not sure this is a corridor?

                        I'm sure this is not a corridor.
                        Nobody will make portholes in the corridor!!!
                        Maybe they installed some kind of spacer
                      5. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 46
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I'm sure this is not a corridor.
                        Nobody will make portholes in the corridor!!!

                        Uh... I didn't see where the porthole is. But it looks like you're right, I looked through Balakin's drawings. The corridors at the waterline are not shown on any of the sections. It looks like the Japanese have abandoned the old tradition, the coal is piled right up to the side.

                        But our battleships have old-school corridors. smile
                      6. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 48
                        By the way, I also came across a cool photo from Balakin. This is related to our old conversation about Japanese high-explosive shells.
                      7. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 50
                        you will also appreciate the English ventilation system. On the diagram "Majestic", but all Japanese battleships had similar
                      8. 0
                        6 March 2025 23: 52
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Also check out the English ventilation system

                        Yes, they've screwed it up.
                      9. +1
                        6 March 2025 23: 56
                        Fuji had 4, the others had 6 large ventilators with drives from auxiliary steam engines. From them a network of channels through all the decks and watertight bulkheads. In some places with float valves, but we know their efficiency from Retvizan ))) And God forbid fragments break through a ventilation channel or steam line ...
                        But our Andrey confidently writes that nothing will happen to the Japanese battleships from hits to the ends.
                      10. +1
                        7 March 2025 13: 18
                        Quote: rytik32
                        From them there is a network of channels through all the decks and watertight bulkheads.

                        Show on your diagram the entrances under the armored deck.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In some places with float valves, but we know their effectiveness from "Retvizan" )))

                        You know the efficiency of the American design, not the English one:)))
                        "I didn't like Pavarotti, he lisps, he can't hit the right notes...
                        - Have you been to Pavarotti’s concert?
                        - No, Rabinovich sang to me."
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But our Andrey confidently writes that nothing will happen to the Japanese battleships from hits to the ends.

                        True. And the presence of ventilation does not refute my thesis in any way.
                      11. 0
                        7 March 2025 14: 01
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Show on your diagram the entrances under the armored deck.

                        Can't you see?
                        Moreover, judging by the diagram, there is no valve in this place. Probably only an armored grate from shrapnel

                        You know the efficiency of American design, not English.

                        And can you tell us about the difference in design?
                      12. 0
                        7 March 2025 16: 13
                        That's what we're talking about - we have ONE entrance. How long do you think it will take to punch a hole in the pipe (if there was no such option initially) and limit the flooding through the ventilation to one section?
                      13. 0
                        7 March 2025 17: 00
                        Look at the experience of Retvizan or Shikishima, how quickly they managed to stop water penetration through ventilation.
                      14. 0
                        7 March 2025 17: 54
                        I have already answered you about Retvizan. And about Shikishima - you answered yourself. The Japanese could not stop the water from entering the hull for a long time, they were flooded through the ventilation and...
                        Nothing happened. No serious list, no trim, nothing threatening the ship. That is, the example with Shikishima confirms my thesis.
                      15. 0
                        7 March 2025 23: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Nothing happened

                        This is because the hole was above the overhead power line. It could have been left unsealed, it is at the very bottom of the deck, water would have flowed in and out through it.
                      16. 0
                        8 March 2025 05: 58
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This is because the hole was above the power line.

                        This is because you are again adjusting reality to the answer you need. In fact, it doesn't matter where the hole was, what matters is how the water got into the hull. And it got in quite well, and - judging by your own description
                        Soon, a 15-centimeter layer of water covered the entire lower (living) deck from the stern beam to the sternpost.

                        However, with the ventilation damaged, no large-scale flooding of the compartments below the armor occurred.
                      17. 0
                        8 March 2025 19: 05
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        However, with the ventilation damaged, no large-scale flooding of the compartments below the armor occurred.

                        The ventilation was not damaged, no need to guess!
                        On English and Japanese battleships, the supply pipe passed through the cabins along the floor (you can see it on the diagram). The pipe had ventilation holes, and that's how the water was distributed.
                        I will say more, ventilation was combined with heating and air conditioning. The air passing through this pipe could be heated or cooled.
                      18. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 07
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The ventilation was not damaged, no need to guess!

                        Alexey, in support of your point of view that the Japanese could have been destroyed by smashing the extremities, you cited the example of Shikishima. Absolutely nothing terrible happened to Shikishima. What was the point of your example?
                      19. 0
                        9 March 2025 00: 11
                        The size of the reduction in the area of ​​the GVL, at which a Japanese or English battleship should capsize, was calculated back in 1906 by N.E. Kuteinikov. It is 17%
                        And the area of ​​the GVL of the extremities is 25%.
                        So that ...
                      20. 0
                        9 March 2025 06: 44
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The size of the reduction in the area of ​​gypsum fiber sheets

                        So we've come to a consensus that Shikishima's example doesn't prove anything, right?
                      21. 0
                        7 March 2025 23: 03
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I have already answered you about Retvizan

                        You've made a big mistake with Retvizan. Everyone understands that you're not familiar with the design of English and American ventilation valves. laughing
                      22. 0
                        8 March 2025 06: 01
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You made a big mistake with Retvizan.

                        Yes, sure:))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Everyone understands that you are not familiar with the design of English and American ventilation valves

                        Alexey, do you seriously think that by looking at the drawing of the general scheme of such a design you can draw a conclusion about its efficiency and performance? laughing This is very... Let's say, presumptuous.
                      23. 0
                        8 March 2025 19: 13
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that looking at the picture

                        You underestimate me)))
                        I also read the description of the ventilation of Japanese and English ships )))
                        "Canopuses" were the last with archaic ventilation from steam engines. Next - electric individual fans, approximately like in "Oslyaba". And the unreliability of automatic valves (in fact, both the valve designs used: Burke and Broadfoot) was one of the reasons for the transition to a new scheme.
                      24. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 06
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I also read the description of the ventilation of Japanese and English ships )))

                        This is all well and good, but here's the thing - it doesn't give you the opportunity to evaluate its performance under combat damage.
                      25. 0
                        7 March 2025 15: 01
                        Here is another place where ventilation passes through the armored deck.
                      26. 0
                        7 March 2025 07: 12
                        I looked through the drawings at Balakina. In all the sections the corridors at the waterline are not indicated.

                        On "Mikasa" there were corridors behind the main armor belt, on the others there were not. They can be seen on the plan in the book "Triumphants of Tsushima".
                      27. 0
                        7 March 2025 08: 38
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        They can be seen on the plan in the book "Triumphants of Tsushima".

                        That's where I looked. And I didn't find it.. And the phrase that the Japanese had to shovel away coal to get to the hole finished me off. Of course, it's not clear.
                      28. 0
                        8 March 2025 13: 07
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        They can be seen on the plan in the book "Triumphants of Tsushima".

                        That's where I looked. And I didn't find it.. And the phrase that the Japanese had to shovel away coal to get to the hole finished me off. Of course, it's not clear.

                        The corridors behind the armor belt (KzB, in red font) are quite clearly visible:
                      29. 0
                        8 March 2025 14: 17
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The corridors behind the armor belt are quite clearly visible.

                        I don't know what to think anymore request
                        I looked at Asahi's sections, there's definitely nothing there.
                      30. 0
                        8 March 2025 16: 25
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The corridors behind the armor belt are quite clearly visible.

                        I don't know what to think anymore request
                        I looked at Asahi's sections, there's definitely nothing there.

                        On Asahi, Shikishima and Hatsuse, there are no corridors behind the armor, the coal is adjacent to the double side. The design of Mikasa differs from the above.
                      31. 0
                        8 March 2025 19: 40
                        There are no side corridors at the Mikasa open pits
                      32. 0
                        9 March 2025 13: 44
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There are no side corridors at the Mikasa open pits

                        We need drawings, not hit diagrams or hole patching diagrams.
                      33. 0
                        9 March 2025 15: 56
                        Hit patterns drawn by repair companies are the most accurate. Because in fact, this is an appendix to defect detection.
                      34. 0
                        8 March 2025 20: 12
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The design of Mikasa differs from those listed above.

                        It remains to find Mikasa's cuts. The corridor is indeed visible on the hole-sealing diagrams; it is its bulkhead that the stops press down on.
                      35. 0
                        9 March 2025 13: 46
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The design of Mikasa differs from those listed above.

                        It remains to find Mikasa's cuts. The corridor is indeed visible on the hole-sealing diagrams; it is its bulkhead that the stops press down on.

                        So far there are only diagrams of hits and patching of holes. But on the drawings of deck plans, corridors behind the armor are quite present.
                      36. 0
                        8 March 2025 19: 37
                        yeah, and it's signed rail way )))
                        https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/naval_manual/83261621/63066/63066_original.png
                      37. 0
                        9 March 2025 13: 42
                        Quote: rytik32
                        yeah, and it's signed rail way )))
                        https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/naval_manual/83261621/63066/63066_original.png

                        It's all scheme hits, and in "Triumphants of Tsushima", are given blueprints deck plans. "rail way" - they also have them (rail ways for feeding coal from the end pits to the pits near the boiler rooms).
                        It is possible that the drawings are design drawings, and when building the Mikasa, they abandoned the longitudinal bulkhead of the side corridors behind the armor belt, but here they are needed blueprints MS or sections of other frames to refute the deck plan drawings.
                      38. 0
                        9 March 2025 15: 39
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        but here we need drawings of the MS or sections of other frames

                        So they are on the damage diagrams. And there are no side corridors
  7. 0
    6 March 2025 11: 44
    Thanks to the author for an excellent series of articles.
    But from my point of view, in addition to the reasons indicated by the author, it is worth mentioning another one - the localization of damage in the bow. In the case of Oslyabya, this was apparently caused by a slowdown and even a stop in speed - apparently the Japanese gunners fired at the middle of the hull with an advance on the ship's speed.
    Later, Lutzow and Seydlitz also suffered heavy damage to their bows, which caused them to fall out of formation and even the death of the former.
    1. +3
      6 March 2025 13: 24
      There is no mystery about the fact that they hit the bow. It is clearer for the gunner to aim at the bow. By the time the shell reaches the ship, it will move along its trajectory. But the Oslyabya was moving slowly. And a small miscalculation by the gunners led to a concentration of hitting the bow.
      1. -1
        6 March 2025 22: 03
        Quote: MCmaximus
        There is no mystery about the papodali on the nose. It is clearer for the gunner to aim at the nose.

        In general, the gunner aims at the center of the enemy ship and continuously tracks the aiming point. That's what the Japanese did. The Russians caught the center at the moment of the shot. The vertical corrections and horizontal lead are set centrally and in advance.
        1. +1
          6 March 2025 22: 11
          I will quote a translation from a Japanese manual from 1907
          The first method (A) is to aim at a moving target and tilt the gun up and down to keep the target in the sight, so that the gun can fire at any moment. The second method (B) is to set the sight slightly ahead of the direction of the target's movement, so that the shot is fired when the target appears in the sight. The first method is applicable to small-caliber guns. The second is applicable to medium-caliber guns. If the target is moving too fast or too wide, then small-caliber guns should use the second method. If the target is moving too chaotically, then it is very difficult to catch the moment of the shot, then the first method should be used even for large and medium-caliber guns.
          1. 0
            6 March 2025 22: 31
            Quote: rytik32
            The second method (B) is to set the sight slightly ahead of the target's direction of movement, so that the shot is fired when the target appears in the sight.

            And how will it appear in the sight if you are overtaking the enemy, like at Tsushima. wink
            The first method is clearly needed here. By the way, did the Japanese not specify the rear sight when issuing instructions to the guns?
            1. 0
              6 March 2025 22: 36
              Quote: Saxahorse
              And how will it appear in the sight if you are overtaking the enemy, like at Tsushima?

              Here we are talking about up and down on the waves

              By the way, did the Japanese not specify the rear sight when giving instructions to the guns?

              They asked
              1. 0
                6 March 2025 22: 43
                Quote: rytik32
                Here we are talking about up and down on the waves

                Maxim is not writing about this, and above they asked specifically about a bunch of hits in the nose section.
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 22: 47
                  My opinion: the Japanese knew how to hit a specific place (a wheelhouse, a tower, etc.)
                  The most striking example is that one of the cruisers gave the Orel a beating during its dash north.
                  8-inch shells into the conning tower, into the right front and into the right middle turrets.
                  1. +1
                    6 March 2025 22: 49
                    Quote: rytik32
                    My opinion: the Japanese knew how to hit a specific place (a wheelhouse, a tower, etc.)

                    Six kilometers? You wouldn't be able to do it even now. And in 1905...
                    "I do not believe!" (c) Stanislavsky
                  2. 0
                    7 March 2025 04: 15
                    Doubtful. I've already forgotten what magnification the optical sights of that time had. It seems to be 2. Well, let's say 4. Take the "Aurora" magnification from the limit, as it can be seen from the shore. It's a maximum of 2 km. And look through binoculars. The most popular now are 7-8x. Even at this, the conning tower itself is not very visible. What will the gunner see there in a 2x sight in bad weather... from 5-6 km? The shooting conditions are not for a firing range. It seems that at a short distance we can talk about a sight in the area, for example, of the conning tower. No more. And 5-6 km - you just need to hit.
                    Then you can brag: I aimed at the conning tower and hit it, etc. That's what kind of master I am. And so: "Bismarck" was shot at from 7 to 3 km. Main gun. But they couldn't hit the belt.
                    One thing can be said, that with good practice the gunner (shooter) has a good feel for his weapon and understands how the projectile (bullet) flies without any calculations. And the Russian fleet did everything to allow the Japanese to accumulate their experience and did little to generalize theirs.
                    Well, we can't rule out the possibility of accidents. The Japanese were very lucky in that war.
                    I specifically looked through the sight on the "Aurora". I was not impressed. I don't know how real it is. But it's just like any optical sight, a more convenient tool for aiming, but without any outstanding characteristics.
  8. 0
    6 March 2025 13: 04
    Well, it's about to start...especially for coal. For maneuvering, too, by the way.
    1. +2
      6 March 2025 14: 49
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      Well, now it's about to begin...especially for coal.

      If it does start, it won't be from my side. The coal issue is extremely interesting, and I now have some new data that needs to be calculated and studied before starting a discussion about coal. But this work is not my priority right now.
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      For maneuvering, too, by the way.

      Here, it seems to me, everything has already been said. Alexey believes that they maneuvered as he indicated, his arguments are clear. I believe that they maneuvered completely differently, and my arguments are clear too. That we will not find a point of contact - again, it is clear, we have already argued about this a lot. Well, I will say, for example, that according to Jackson's scheme, it turns out that the 1st armored ship generally went straight ahead, and did not try to get to the head of the 2nd and 3rd detachments, which is completely wrong, therefore his scheme cannot be evidence - what's the point?
      1. +1
        6 March 2025 15: 59
        according to Jackson's scheme it turns out that the 1st armored ship went straight ahead and did not try to get in front of the 2nd and 3rd

        The 1st BrO was reorganizing to the right even before the opening of fire. At that moment, the "Azuma" did not see the "Suvorov", so its maneuver was not recorded. But the "Azuma" did not see the "Suvorov" either, so it was confused with the "Yakumo" on the diagram. So there is nothing surprising here. And this is not an argument against Jackson, who even saw the "Oslyabya" stern at the moment of reorganization and recorded this in his report.
        1. +1
          6 March 2025 16: 39
          Quote: rytik32
          At that moment, the "Azuma" did not see the "Suvorov", so its maneuver was not recorded. But the "Suvorov" was not seen by the "Azuma" either, so it was confused with the "Yakumo" on the diagram.

          Alexey, this is Jackson's report. What does the opinion of the Suvorov officers have to do with it?:))))
          Quote: rytik32
          The 1st BrO was reorganizing to the right even before fire was opened.

          No, this is not on Jackson's diagram. It turns out he was not rebuilt.
          Quote: rytik32
          And this is not at all an argument against Jackson, who even saw the stern of the Oslyabya at the moment of rebuilding and recorded this in his report.

          The argument against Jackson's diagram is very simple. It shows deliberately false data, which is not confirmed by anyone, not even by you. The idea that the 1st armored ship leaned to the right is yours, but Jackson does not have this, he contradicts you here, and you ignore it. That the 1st armored ship changed course, "all of a sudden" or consistently, but at the intersection of the course of the left column, led by the 2nd armored ship, is also confirmed by a lot of observers and by you personally, but Jackson does not have this on his diagram. You ignore this too. But you consider the turn of the "Oslyabya" behind the 1st armored ship, which confirms your layout, as proof.
          That is, the source is clearly unreliable in at least two episodes, it contradicts your own calculations, but in the third episode it confirms you, and you declare it to be true.
          What does source studies say about this?:)
          1. 0
            6 March 2025 18: 20
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That is, the source is clearly unreliable in at least two episodes.

            Your approach to working with sources is fundamentally wrong.
            That is, you assume the existence of some source in which all the nuances should be indicated, without errors.
            I'll disappoint you. There is no such source.
            And not only for the Battle of Tsushima. There is no such source even for the Battle of Jutland.
            There is always someone who has overlooked something. Someone who has made a mistake somewhere. And the truth must be extracted bit by bit from different sources.
            Here Jackson saw the "Oslyabya" maneuver, wrote down the exact time, and we rely on it. And the fact that he did not see the other maneuver means absolutely nothing. Maybe he went to the latrine at that moment???
            1. +1
              6 March 2025 18: 26
              Quote: rytik32
              Here Jackson saw the "Oslyabya" maneuver, wrote down the exact time, and we rely on it. And the fact that he did not see the other maneuver means absolutely nothing. Maybe he went to the latrine at that moment???

              Maybe. The whole ship was huddled in the latrine, and no one saw what the Russians were doing.
              Alexey, if the picture that the observer draws is full of gross errors, then this can indicate two things.
              1. The observer is lying
              2. The observer is in good faith mistaken.
              If the observer is honestly mistaken, then it must be assumed that he did not observe the object of observation well. This is the most obvious reason.
              If he had a poor view of the object of observation, then he could be mistaken in any of his other observations of this object.
              Quote: rytik32
              Your approach to working with sources is fundamentally wrong.

              I have the same opinion about your approach. It seems academic on the one hand, but on the other hand, you ignore obvious explanations.
              1. 0
                6 March 2025 20: 49
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The entire ship was crammed into the latrine

                The team had something to do)))
                if the picture that the observer draws is full of gross errors

                Name me at least one observer of the Battle of Tsushima who has not made mistakes.
                If he had a poor view of the object of observation

                You argue with the conditions of visibility at a completely different moment in time.
                By the way. Jackson "saw" the maneuver in the report:
                The Russians were sailing in two columns abeam, converging at an angle of 2 or 3 rhumbs. Five minutes later, both columns turned to NO, with the right column noticeably approaching the left.


                There are as many diagrams and texts describing the rebuilding of the Oslyabya to the right as there is dirt.
                There are fewer mentions in relation to time:
                Shikishima BD 14:20
                BD Fuji 14:19
                BD Kasuga 14:20
                Azuma BD 14:23
                The whole question was whose time was more accurate.

                I cited Jackson not as the only evidence, but as the most accurate. He was a pure observer and had the opportunity to quickly record events. And on his diagram it is extremely clear that 14:22 is the time of the Oslyabya's entry into the wake, and not the time of the beginning of the turn (if the database says "turned into the wake", then it can be interpreted in different ways: maybe he started the maneuver, or maybe he finished it)
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 22: 13
                  Quote: rytik32
                  There are as many diagrams and texts describing the rebuilding of the Oslyabya to the right as there is dirt.

                  At the same time, a bunch of Russian observers indicate that Oslyabya was standing when the fire opened! And the second detachment huddled around him. This is not in the diagrams you provided.

                  By the way, the 2-3 rhumbs you mentioned are about 30 degrees; at such an angle, the convergence of two columns will take a few minutes.
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2025 22: 20
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    At the same time, a bunch of Russian observers indicate that Oslyabya was standing when the fire opened! And the second detachment huddled around him. This is not in the diagrams you provided.

                    These are late memories. I still trust Japanese artillery ranges more, and everything is clear there. The approach lasted until 2:18 (Japanese).

                    And for comparison, early Russian memories (1-2 weeks after the battle):

                    The enemy fleet crossed the course of our squadron and began to round it from the left side, simultaneously firing a salvo at the Suvorov and opening fire from all ships at the Oslyabya, which, before the 1st detachment entered its place, was the lead ship and was closest to the enemy squadron. Taking on such a mass of shells, the battleship received an underwater hole in the bow from a 12-inch shell. From the hole it heeled over strongly. Due to this hole, it did not fall out of formation, but continued to follow the wake of the 1st detachment, which entered the same battle line, firing at the enemy. When the Suvorov became the lead ship of the column of battleships, hits on the Oslyabya were much less frequent than before, since the enemy's fire was directed at the Suvorov, and the bow turret was knocked out shortly after the opening of fire..
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2025 22: 37
                      Quote: rytik32
                      These are late memories. Still, I trust Japanese artillery ranges more, and there everything is clear.

                      However, these are not memoirs but testimonies, and confirmed in court. That is, more than one person remembered this. And trusting the military, especially the Japanese, in their reports to their superiors is a thankless task. Remember the classics?
                      "Write more, why pity them infidels!" (c) laughing
                      1. +2
                        6 March 2025 22: 41
                        dry distances, what's the point of lying?
                      2. 0
                        6 March 2025 22: 46
                        Quote: rytik32
                        dry distances, what's the point of lying?

                        In the comments to the previous article I suggested why. For example, to attribute to myself the participation in the sinking of Oslyabya. lol

                        They simply indicated Oslyabya instead of Suvorov, for example. An obvious exaggeration of their successes in battle for the Japanese captains.
                      3. 0
                        6 March 2025 22: 50
                        It was not for nothing that I gave the example of our testimony, which also writes that they beat everyone according to "Oslyaba"
                      4. 0
                        6 March 2025 22: 57
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It was not for nothing that I gave the example of our testimony, which also writes that they beat everyone according to "Oslyaba"

                        And it was not for nothing that I reminded you earlier of the Russian edition of Meiji... edited by officers of the General Staff of the Russian Navy, by the way. By the way, smart people corrected the obvious blunders in the Japanese edition. Based on the testimony of living witnesses, among other things.
                2. +2
                  7 March 2025 13: 21
                  Quote: rytik32
                  You argue with the conditions of visibility at a completely different moment in time.

                  I see. Where your theory is confirmed, the observer saw well. Where it is not, he saw badly.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  There are as many diagrams and texts describing the rebuilding of the Oslyabya to the right as there is dirt.

                  Of course. Because he, apparently, was rebuilding to the right. Only not at all in the way you write about it.
                  1. 0
                    7 March 2025 15: 34
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Because he, apparently, was rebuilding to the right. Only not at all in the way you write about it.

                    I'm waiting for your diagram.
                    1. +1
                      7 March 2025 16: 07
                      I have already given its description
                      1. 0
                        7 March 2025 16: 54
                        Schemes from https://topwar.ru/159124-cusima-oshibki-zp-rozhestvenskogo-i-gibel-osljabi.html
                        fundamentally contradict Japanese data
      2. -2
        7 March 2025 15: 06

        Well, I will say, for example, that according to Jackson’s scheme it turns out that the 1st armored ship generally went straight ahead, and did not try to get to the head of the 2nd and 3rd detachments, which is completely wrong, therefore his scheme cannot be considered as evidence - what’s the point?

        Well, there really wasn't much point - Rozhdestvensky ordered the 2nd armored detachment to be in the wake of the 1st, while increasing speed by only 2 knots. Naturally, Baer had to "slow down". Moreover, Oslyabya is already a rather large ship, but by modern standards it is not at all burdened with "horses". Even if Oslyabya did not stop at all, its speed was low for some time. And it was at this moment that the Japanese began sighting. The lower the speed of the target - the lower the VIR and VIP, the easier it is to shoot. And whether the "Borodinites" "pushed out" the "non-carrier" with the "pensioners", or they needed to fall in behind the "first guys in the village" - it doesn't matter. The chaos in the 2nd detachment at this moment is described by everyone who was walking behind. And the "nebogatovtsy" were in "confusion" about what to do. There was no longer time for a "lazy" reorganization. And Baer did not risk deploying "frontally" to the enemy without the permission of their Excellency. Naturally, he did not immediately understand that he had nothing to lose. Zinovy ​​Petrovich did not take care to have an admiral (and not a captain-1, even with a claim to a rear admiral) on the lead ship of the second most powerful squadron.
        1. 0
          7 March 2025 16: 10
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          Christmas

          At least you spell the last name correctly. It's Rozhdestvensky.
          Quote: Dimax-Nemo
          Naturally, Baer had to "slow down". Moreover, Oslyabya is already a rather large ship, but by modern standards it is not at all burdened with "horses".

          The thing is that Rozhestvensky, maneuvering at a speed of only 2 knots faster, was approaching the course of the second detachment SLOWLY. And Oslyabya had a ton of time to see what was coming at him and slow down slightly, letting the "Eagle" go ahead. No, why, we'll push forward, and then brake urgently...
          1. 0
            7 March 2025 17: 02
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            and slow down slightly, letting the "Eagle" go ahead"

            How did Baer know that Rozhestvensky did not want, for example, to line up the ships in a frontal line and attack the enemy at full speed?
            Otherwise I would have reset my speed, and how would I gain it back later?
            1. +1
              7 March 2025 17: 51
              Quote: rytik32
              How did Baer know that Rozhestvensky did not want, for example, to line up the ships in a frontal line and attack the enemy at full speed?

              When a car cuts you off on the road, how do you know it's cutting you off? Baer saw that 1 armored vehicle was heading his way and the distance was closing
              1. 0
                7 March 2025 18: 08
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                goes towards him and the distance is reduced

                1BrO did not reach 2BrO 5-6 cab., there was no risk of collision.
                But Baer slowed down later, because there was no point in getting even closer and exposing himself to being shot by the Japanese.
                1. +1
                  7 March 2025 18: 33
                  Quote: rytik32
                  1BrO did not reach 2BrO 5-6 cab.,

                  In your opinion, again, absolutizing Japanese sources. That such a decision by Rozhestvensky is obviously absurd, and, what is even more important, does not require Baer to sharply slow down Oslyabya, you do not see
                  1. 0
                    7 March 2025 22: 50
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    In your opinion, again, absolutizing Japanese sources

                    these are Russian sources
                    1. +1
                      8 March 2025 06: 02
                      Quote: rytik32
                      these are Russian sources

                      Basically, it's not them though.
          2. 0
            10 March 2025 15: 26
            Even if you call me Nelson, it doesn’t change the essence.
            Excuse me, but where have you seen a "brake" on a ship? Usually, the engines don't work backwards at medium speed, especially since they are also pushing from behind, they also have orders to follow in the wake. The ship moves forward by inertia, how far it will go depends on the ship, the commander and the helmsman should simply know their ship and live with it. Baer reduced the speed as much as he could so that Borodino could enter the battle, that's all that happened. Even if Z.P. had not ordered the 2nd detachment to be in the wake of the 1st, but simply overtook the 2nd detachment, at least Orel would not have had time to enter the battle if Oslyabya had stupidly continued to go at the ordered 9 knots. In this case, responsibility for calculating the maneuver lies solely with the one who "conceived" it and ordered it.
            1. 0
              10 March 2025 15: 52
              Quote: Dimax-Nemo
              Baer slowed down as much as he could so that Borodino could enter the battle, that’s all that happened.

              If this were the case, then Oslyabya would have begun to sharply slow down long before Suvorov turned onto a combat course, but eyewitness accounts do not confirm this.
              1. -1
                11 March 2025 08: 53
                How can a piece of iron loaded to 14 thousand tons and optimized for better performance "suddenly slow down"? Does it have a handbrake? A brake parachute? No way, Karl. And don't forget that there are still Matelots behind. What should they do? Rozhestvensky did not give the command to slow down the 2nd/3rd detachments. However, he did not give the initiative to his flagships.
                1. +1
                  11 March 2025 09: 15
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  How can a piece of iron loaded with up to 14 tons and optimized for better performance "suddenly slow down"? Does it have a handbrake? A brake parachute? No way, Karl.

                  Yes, it's elementary. You completely forget that a ship is not a car and moves in a dense medium, which is water. If a ship simply follows by inertia, it will stop after traveling 25-30 ship lengths, if it is working full astern - then 5-7 lengths
                2. 0
                  11 March 2025 13: 16
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  How can a piece of iron, loaded with up to 14 thousand tons and optimized for improved performance, "suddenly slow down"?

                  There is such a command - full reverse. The mechanic turns on the reverse and the machine starts to rotate the propeller in the opposite direction.
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  And don't forget that there are still Matelots coming behind.

                  And two rumbas to the side.
                  Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                  However, as well as initiatives for their flagships.

                  Flagships also need to use their brains sometimes.
                  1. 0
                    11 March 2025 15: 25
                    1) Do not work backwards with machines at medium speed without urgent need. Especially - in the wake formation.
                    2) Sisoes had to turn away anyway, the rest had to describe the "coordinates". And with such "braking" Oslyabya. As a result, instead of a formation, there was a mess at the beginning of the battle. There was no order for the 2nd detachment to turn its front to the left. The instructions before the battle did not allow maneuvering at your own discretion. Follow the lead.
                    3) There was no order to reduce the speed. In the army and navy they do what they are ordered to do, if the last order has not been cancelled, it is carried out. When Baer saw that he was about to arrive in Borodino, he had to do something.
                    4) Water is dense, and a ship is designed to develop the maximum possible speed and cruising range in this dense environment. That's why it is streamlined in the underwater part.
                    5) I led you - I will answer for everything! (C) Zhvanetsky.
                    This is the commander:
                    a) decided to engage in maneuvering with a squadron that, in his opinion, did not know how to maneuver;
                    b) started a maneuver, then cancelled it for the 2nd detachment "for what?". Front formation - is that so that a couple of ships would immediately run into floating mines? (Will not touch on what signal Suvorov actually raised). These "stupid" questions were asked of Rozhdestvensky even before WWI;
                    c) He began to reorganize into one column (i.e. to correct the consequences of an unnecessary reorganization) already in view of the enemy, increasing the speed by only 2 knots (although Borodino should have given 13 knots for a short time, Orel did give it later) and turning to the left column by 45 degrees immediately.
                    d) Left the 2nd armored detachment without an admiral.

                    There are far more questions for Z.P. than for Baer, ​​who did not survive this battle.
  9. 0
    6 March 2025 13: 26
    minefields.

    Seriously? Go into battle with minefields?
    1. +2
      6 March 2025 13: 54
      Quote: Trapper7
      Go into battle with minefields?

      It seems they were removed before the squadron left.
      1. +3
        6 March 2025 20: 52
        Good afternoon, Ivan!
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        took off

        No, they didn't. On the "Sisoy" even the reserve of 12-inch shells was reduced, converting the spare bomb cellar into a mine cellar.
        1. 0
          7 March 2025 13: 37
          Well, there are fewer and fewer decent words...
      2. +1
        7 March 2025 04: 25
        Rozhestvensky was a typical military man. Everything according to the rules, everything according to the charter. You all die, but follow the papers.
        As an example, our Black Sea Fleet in this war. The commander sank half of the fleet with Ukrainian BEKs, but slapped everyone on the hands for non-standard armament of the ships with lousy machine guns.
        1. 0
          7 March 2025 13: 37
          There was an order from the Admiral General to remove all mines from the garden plant.
          It is true, judging by Semenov’s testimony, that it was not carried out immediately...
  10. +3
    6 March 2025 13: 39
    +++ Excellently written, "without fluff")) I especially liked the calculation of the required coal.
  11. -2
    6 March 2025 13: 46
    Another argument in favor of overloading in combat is the Novikov-Priboy drive, pointing to the following facts:
    - the absence of wooden sheathing on German ships, which also serves as food for fire.
    - on the contrary, in the RIF, officers of the Guards EBR Alexander III refused to remove the luxurious wooden paneling of the wardroom, even before the battle.
    - when ships were sent from Russian ports, a lot of unaccounted cargo was loaded, unauthorized by the ship crew members.
    Therefore, it is not only Rozhdestvensky who is to blame for the overload.
    So what nonsense
  12. +2
    6 March 2025 17: 37
    "The strategy of sinking enemy battleships by causing holes above the armor belt in the bow." It was unrealistic to specifically target the bow above the main armor belt at such combat distances. Specifically, the Oslyabya's armor belt went under water, so the second part of the task was accomplished, so to speak, automatically. Well, hitting the bow was a matter of chance.
    1. 0
      6 March 2025 17: 59
      It was impossible to specifically target the nose section above the main armor belt at such combat distances.

      There are facts that prove the opposite:
      https://topwar.ru/214097-revoljucionnoe-razvitie-metodiki-strelby-anglijskogo-flota-na-rubezhe-xix-xx-vv.html
      1. +2
        7 March 2025 13: 23
        Quote: rytik32

        There are facts that prove the opposite:

        They are not given in the article.
    2. +1
      6 March 2025 22: 22
      Quote: Vitaly Koisin
      It was impossible to specifically target the nose section above the main armor belt at such combat distances.

      The Japanese were shooting from the front. Here, whether you want it or not, you'll mostly hit the nose. Alexey is trying to use the reports of Japanese captains, which were clearly drawn up in a hurry and without much credibility. In some of them, the Japanese started the battle almost on counter-courses. Togo himself claimed that he had initially planned to stay north. In general, the scheme of the beginning of the battle is crooked. That's why there are misunderstandings.
  13. +3
    6 March 2025 21: 39
    Alexey, great series!
    Debunking myths is always interesting!
  14. +2
    6 March 2025 23: 08
    The information available on the Internet about the construction overload of Japanese battleships has not been confirmed. I found data on the actual draft and actual displacement. The differences from the plan are +- tons, i.e. within the margin of error.
    1. +1
      7 March 2025 04: 30
      Initially, English battleships were larger. And they had fewer reasons for overloading than we did. And an overload of 500 tons for a ship of the 13500 or 15000 project is different in percentage.
      Well, it makes no sense to compare the production culture of England and Russia at that time.
      1. +3
        7 March 2025 09: 19
        I recently read an article by White about the Royal Sovereign class battleships that were built. They even fit the design almost perfectly with the MCV.
        1. 0
          7 March 2025 10: 45
          Thus, an attempt to squeeze the characteristics of a 13500-ton battleship into a 15000-ton battleship results in a 13500-ton battleship with an overload of 1500 tons.
          laughing
          1. -1
            7 March 2025 11: 54
            In technical terms, the "Prince Suvorov" was in many ways more perfect than the "Mikasa", but overload was one of the forms of payment for this. The English built, albeit with old solutions, but strictly according to the project. Ours hacked the project for the sake of technical innovations, which resulted in overload
            1. 0
              10 March 2025 07: 32
              Mikasa was also overloaded by 500-600 tons. The British simply believed that they could afford not to "hold back" the displacement as much as other countries did for financial reasons. That is why the overload in the case of Mikasa was somewhat less. But even for the British, this did not always work out.
              1. 0
                10 March 2025 09: 15
                How did you know that Mikasa was overloaded?
                I have data on its draft at full load during acceptance tests...
                There is data on the actual distribution of weight by load items...
                1. 0
                  10 March 2025 09: 35
                  I read it. At that time, the displacement during acceptance tests had nothing in common with the real "operational" displacement. Almost all the ships were overloaded, almost all usually sat with their lower armor belts like Borodino before Tsushima - up to their ears. They still didn't know how to build without overloading.
                  1. 0
                    10 March 2025 10: 36
                    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                    Almost all the ships were overloaded, almost all of them usually sat with their lower armor belts like Borodino before Tsushima - up to their ears

                    Can you provide photos of Japanese battleships where their main belt would be completely submerged?
                    1. 0
                      10 March 2025 15: 16
                      No. Why? The ship is loaded depending on the situation. When it was necessary, it was loaded. As a rule, it was necessary. Mikasa had a design overload, less than Borodino, but it was there, and quite noticeable. The normal displacement according to the project is 14 tons, in fact - 356 tons (Balakin). I repeat - the ships went out for trials with a smaller displacement than they later had in service. The full displacement of Mikasa is 15 tons. In any case, Mikasa (like all or almost all battleships built by the British) has nothing above the main belt at the bow and stern. The main belt should have been 140 m higher than the main line (with normal displacement). In Tsushima weather conditions, for example, this is "niachom".
                      Here is the "Naval Campaign" about Lord Nelson, for example, this battleship was built by the British after Mikasa:
                      "However, the armour protection of the Lord Nelson had two serious shortcomings. Firstly, the main belt sank under water when fully loaded...".
                      I seriously doubt Mikasa was much better at this than Nelson.
                      1. 0
                        10 March 2025 15: 24
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        The ship is loaded depending on the situation.

                        Here is the situation https://tsushima.su/uploads/photoarhiv/ships/jap/epoch_bron/ebr/mikasa/photo/02.jpg
                        1TOE can break through at any moment. What does Mikasa do in this case? Go into battle with half-empty pits? Stop the chase because the coal runs out?
                        in fact - 15 t.

                        This is full displacement, with full coal supply. That's the whole mistake (see Lengerer).
                        ships with a smaller displacement were sent out for testing

                        The Japanese had a requirement to conduct tests at full displacement.
                        The full displacement of Mikasa is 15 tons.

                        No

                        The main belt of "Mikasa" towered
                        with standard displacement - 1,11 m
                        at full displacement - 0,76 m
                      2. 0
                        10 March 2025 15: 33
                        The structural overload due to incorrect load calculations has not gone away. The armor will now sit lower than intended.
                        That's exactly it, the Japanese did not go into battle with normal displacement (even though the Russians needed to break through the strait, and not run from the Japanese).
                        Regarding the height of the armor - argue with Balakin. But in your opinion it turns out that with the height of the armor above the VL of 1,11 (which, as we have already "agreed" could not be, because the displacement is "abnormal") only 1,25 m remains under the VL, which is not enough, so to speak.
                      3. 0
                        10 March 2025 16: 01
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        Structural overload due to incorrect load calculations has not gone away

                        And what kind of overload did Retvizan end up with?

                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        argue with Balakin

                        Why should I argue with him? If anything, I know him personally )))
                      4. 0
                        11 March 2025 08: 58
                        Retvizan is one of the few exceptions that only confirm the rule. And the fact that they didn't know how to calculate the load correctly back then.
                        So tell Balakin that he incorrectly indicated the height of the Mikasa armor belt above the VL at normal displacement (which I very much doubt for the reason I explained above). I will read with interest what he will answer you.
                      5. 0
                        11 March 2025 09: 48
                        And the fact that they didn’t know how to calculate the load correctly back then

                        On the Royal Sovereign, the actual MCD differed from the calculated one by as much as 46 mm.
                        So tell Balakin

                        This has all been known for a long time.
                      6. 0
                        11 March 2025 15: 57

                        On the Royal Sovereign, the actual MCD differed from the calculated one by as much as 46 mm.

                        So what? In Jutland, most of the dreadnoughts were up to their ears. A good ten years later, the ships were being built.

                        What and who knows? According to the photo during the tests, Mikasa had no structural overload? And at the same time it had 1,2 m of armor underwater?
                      7. 0
                        11 March 2025 17: 17
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        In Jutland, most of the dreadnoughts were up to their ears

                        What does "Mikasa" have to do with it?
                        What and who knows?

                        Lengerer has data on the draft of Japanese battleships during acceptance trials, on the actual distribution of the load. And this data is known to those who are interested in Japanese battleships.
                        Am I right in understanding that all the fuss is because you haven’t read Lengerer and you don’t have anything better than Balakina?
                      8. 0
                        12 March 2025 08: 19

                        What does "Mikasa" have to do with it?

                        Given that shipbuilding science by 1910 had not become worse than it had been at the end of the 19th century, if it had not worked out very well after 1910, it certainly could not have worked out in 1897. Varyag was built at the same shipyard at the same time as Retvizan, but it turned out to be overloaded, which is why MTK decided to remove all the shields from the guns.


                        Lengerer has data on the draft of Japanese battleships during acceptance trials, on the actual distribution of the load. And this data is known to those who are interested in Japanese battleships.
                        Am I right in understanding that all the fuss is because you haven’t read Lengerer and you don’t have anything better than Balakina?

                        Ha. Balakin himself copied the numbers from authoritative reference books, as did Vinogradov, Kofman, and all our other authors. Once again - it doesn't matter what was there during the tests. In operation, ships still load more (at that time, at least). No matter what "normal" displacement the manufacturer called it.
                        Even if it was 1,1 m above the VL, the height of the armor protection at Borodino's bow and stern was still higher, even taking into account the overload, simply because they had two full belts. But this did not help Alexander - the wave was higher in Tsushima, so much higher that it was scary to even open the porticoes of the 75-mm battery.
                        Therefore, if Mikasa had been in Oslyabya's place, he would have drowned almost as quickly. And if he had been in Alexander's or Borodino's place, perhaps even faster. On Orel, the "Russian Krupp" was never breached, not a single slab fell off.
                      9. 0
                        12 March 2025 12: 54
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        then in 1897 it certainly couldn't have worked out

                        How could it not work?
                        There are results of measurements of the deepening that indicate the opposite.
                        it turned out to be overloaded, which is why MTK decided to remove all shields from the guns

                        The shields were removed to compensate for the increase in the size of the conning tower.
                        That is, they removed it in one place to add it in another. Everything is logical.
                        Balakin himself copied the numbers from authoritative reference books

                        Did you personally look over your shoulder and check the credibility of the sources?
                        If Mikasa had been in Oslyabya's place, he would have drowned almost as quickly

                        I agree with you 100% here.
                        not a single slab fell off

                        Although it was a very strong hit
                      10. 0
                        12 March 2025 13: 22

                        How could it not work?
                        There are results of measurements of the deepening that indicate the opposite.

                        All this is interesting only if it is known exactly, in detail, how and with what exactly the ship was loaded. In general, a shipbuilder would put a ship on the move with a full load, risking not getting the speed and then paying fines - that's not it. Similarly - metacentric height and draft.


                        The shields were removed to compensate for the increase in the size of the conning tower.
                        That is, they removed it in one place to add it in another. Everything is logical.

                        It is illogical that Kramp's trick with Retvizan did not work. And it is not only the wheelhouse that has already started to emerge.


                        Did you personally look over your shoulder and check the credibility of the sources?

                        I didn't have the honor of communicating with Balakin himself, but I knew another person who discussed this whole topic quite closely with Balakin, Vinogradov, and Kofman. And I'm sure that they used approximately the same literature. In the original.
                      11. 0
                        12 March 2025 14: 54
                        Quote: Dimax-Nemo
                        This is all interesting only if it is known in detail exactly how and with what exactly the ship was loaded.

                        Of course, all this is there. They write what is missing to the design load or what is superfluous. Krylov even has examples.
                        In general, the shipbuilder must launch the ship fully loaded.

                        This is described in the contract, not the decision of the shipbuilder.
                        And I'm sure that they used approximately the same literature.

                        https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4111
                        There is even the name of the book from which the inaccurate information came.
                      12. 0
                        13 March 2025 09: 17

                        Of course, all this is there. They write what is missing to the design load or what is superfluous. Krylov even has examples.
                        ......
                        This is described in the contract, not the decision of the shipbuilder.

                        According to the design, Borodino's normal coal reserve is less than 700 tons (and Mikasa is only slightly better here), and its full reserve is 1100 tons. + -. From the designer's point of view, the displacement is 14400 tons - "there's no place for fuller". However, in fact, this was Slava's "normal" displacement (it was strongly recommended not to load her more - that's not the point now), because with 600 tons of coal, it was only possible to sail in the Baltic (again, not touching on where and how coal over 600 tons had to be obtained). Parks writes that Lord Nelson was even slightly underloaded? Excellent, but even with a full load, the lower belt would still go under water. I seriously doubt that it was any different with Majestics and Formidables, contemporaries of the Japanese battleships. Moreover, private shipyards, at least on the Majestics, did not conduct weight control as carefully as state-owned ones. Even the full displacement that the designers calculated at the time may not be the same as the ship actually had.


                        https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4111
                        There is even the name of the book from which the inaccurate information came.

                        It may well be, but it does not follow from all this that there is "inaccurate information". Regarding the table where the design displacement appears, Balakin refers to a certain "Nihonno Senkan" (vol. 1) (and there is nothing about Yashima and Fuji there at all).
          2. 0
            15 March 2025 11: 36
            In fairness:
            1) The English approach to the "barbettes" cost them very, very dearly.
            2) English 40-45 caliber guns, held together with wire, were usually heavier than Russian ones.
            3) With regard to the theater of military operations for which Tsesarevich-Borodino was built, the coal reserve did not have the significance that the British attached to it. But there is, as they say, a "nuance". Which the 2nd Pacific Fleet experienced to the fullest extent.
            1. 0
              15 March 2025 12: 33
              While the fleet was in Port Arthur, such a range was justified. But the desire to have 2 TOEs in Vladmvostok and somehow interfere with the Japanese is puzzling.
      2. 0
        15 March 2025 11: 32
        Tsesarevich was also overloaded, although less than Borodino. The problem here is not only in the shipyard itself, but also in its contractors. Russia did not have developed commercial shipping, there was no serious need for civilian shipbuilding. There was no great competition among Russian manufacturers of ship equipment. And ordering it abroad was not always possible either.
        1. 0
          15 March 2025 12: 31
          This is all a consequence of financial constraints. They decided that 13500 tons would be enough. But they crammed into the ship what the British did in 15000 tons. And all this has mass.
  15. +2
    7 March 2025 19: 34
    Quote: Saxahorse
    and Oslyabya leading her column separately

    Brilliant. That's the answer to the quick sinking of Oslyabya. And then they argue here about seconds and millimeters of hits. Oslyabya is simply an armoured ship. How can she compete with men, armoured ships and cruisers?