The Round Table and the Hundred Years' War

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The Round Table and the Hundred Years' War
It is quite possible that the ancient King Arthur could have looked like this. But he clearly did not wear such armor. Still from the TV series "Merlin" (2008-2012)


“And you shall make a table of shittim wood, two cubits long, a cubit wide, and a cubit and a half high,”
Exodus 25:23

Knights and coats of arms. In the previous article we started talking about the Knights of the Round Table of the English King Edward III. Everything was mixed up in this ancient stories: the inventions of writers of the past, the king's love for literature and courtesy, the usefulness of feudal rituals and oaths. In some ways, it's all the same PR, but in a medieval manner. In any case, the king received a detachment of followers, and modern masters from "Les Etains du Graal" and "Silver Dream Studio" made a unique series of "little soldiers". Now we will continue to get acquainted with other representatives of this series...



And here is the first meeting with one of the representative figures on our list. This is Henry of Grosmont (1310-1361) - Earl of Derby from 1336, Earl of Lancaster 1345-1351, 1st Duke of Lancaster from 1351, Earl of Leicester from 1351 and a member of the English royal family. He is also the son of Henry "Crooked-Neck", 3rd Earl of Leicester and Lancaster and Maud Chaworth. That is, he was very noble, noble and rich. And it is also known about him that he was ... not only a warrior, but also an outstanding diplomat of his time, and a skilled politician. He was also a military leader, and one of the best at the initial stage of the Hundred Years' War. It was he who achieved victory over the French at the Battle of Auberoche. For all he had done for the British crown, he received the Order of the Garter, and in 1351 the title of Duke.

We often write that the Western knighthood was almost completely illiterate. But Grosmont was not only a skilled warrior and diplomat, but also an excellent writer, and was the author of the manuscript "The Book of Divine Medicines". However, this book is not so much about medicines as it is a story about his deeply personal attitude to religion, piety and morality. For example, it says that at the age of 44 he was sick with gout. The book has seven parts, and each is dedicated to a wound that Henry once received. Although these wounds themselves are only symbols of his seven sins, which he confesses to. Well, and then there are descriptions of medicines, both real and completely fantastic, supposedly capable of healing these "wounds-sins". The result is a call to the reader to piety, for only God can heal everything! He was an outstanding man, but ... in 1360 the plague did not spare him. Let us add that Grosmont was the owner of a very beautiful coat of arms: three golden British lions on a red field, at the top an azure lambel, decorated with golden lilies of France.


Henry Grosmont figurine by Les Etains du Graal and Silver Dream Studio

The figure of John Lisle, 2nd Baron Lisle of Rougemont (1319–1355) exudes true knightly power. In 1344, he became one of the founding knights of the Order of the Garter. He fought in the Hundred Years' War. At the Battle of Crecy in 1346, he commanded a detachment of six knights, eleven squires and twenty-three archers. It is obvious that he and his vassals fought very bravely, because immediately after the battle, the king made him a knight banneret and gave him a salary of 200 pounds a year. But he enjoyed the king's favor for only 11 years. During the Black Prince's campaign in Languedoc, he was killed by a crossbow bolt.


A figurine of John Lyle. Interestingly, his coat of arms is embroidered on the hem of his surcoat. And since the coat of arms is very simple, it is not surprising that his helmet decoration was a huge wolf or dog head. It looks very massive, but in fact, it was most likely made of papier-mâché!


And this is how Roger Mortimer (1287 – November 29, 1330) appears in miniature – 3rd Baron Wigmore, Lord Mortimer from 1304, 1st Earl of March from 1328

Before us is a man who played an exceptional role in the history of England. At first, he faithfully served King Edward II, but then became the lover of his wife Queen Isabella, effectively overthrew the king from the throne and gave the order to kill him. And then, having completely subordinated the queen to his will, he usurped the royal power of the young Edward III and ruled England for three years. All this time, he was busy marrying off his numerous daughters profitably, spending the royal treasury and... as the chroniclers write, "giving the king bad advice." It all ended naturally: the young king came of age and fiercely hated his mother's lover, who, in addition, "knocked up" the queen.

Having surrounded himself with supporters, he personally arrested Mortimer and brought him to trial. The trial was swift and fair, because he "gave the king bad advice." To the place of execution he was dragged across London on a bull's hide, between two horses, then they took off his clothes, but then dressed him again in the black tunic he had worn at the funeral of Edward II. He was also given the right to the last word, after which he was hanged like a common thief. He was then forty-three years old. Well, Roger's naked corpse then hung on the gallows for two days and two nights. Only the Dispensiers, who were also "bad advisers" of Edward II, were treated worse, being executed by disembowelment on the stairs. Such were the harsh morals that reigned in medieval England at that time. By the way, the Mortimer coat of arms is very simple, but it is very difficult to understand its meaning.


Figurine of Bartholomew Burghersh (1329–1369) — 2nd Baron Burghersh from 1355

He was one of the most trusted advisers of King Edward III, and carried out his most delicate assignments. In particular, it was he who was entrusted by the king to pawn his crown and jewels to raise money for the war. He participated in the Hundred Years' War. He fought in the battles of Crecy and Poitiers. One of the founders of the Order of the Garter (1348). His coat of arms was also very simple, which is not surprising given his nobility.


Edward "The Black Prince" (1330–1376)

He was the eldest son of Edward III, 1st Earl of Chester from 1333, 1st Duke of Cornwall from 1337, Prince of Wales from 1343, and a Knight of the Garter from 1348. He was the ruler of Aquitaine with the title "Prince of Aquitaine" from 1362, and Lord of Biscay and Castro-Urdiales in Castile from 1366. One of the most famous commanders of the Hundred Years' War. But why is he "black", although his effigy in Canterbury Cathedral is dressed in a heraldic jupon, and it should have had the colors of the coat of arms of England? There is a version that he was nicknamed so because at tournaments he fought in black armor and with a shield on which three black feathers were depicted.


Another "dog-headed knight" was Ralph Stafford (1301–1372), 1st Earl of Stafford

Also among the founders of the Order of the Garter, also a participant in the Hundred Years' War. Participated in the overthrow of Mortimer and thus gained the friendship of King Edward III. Became a royal marshal and... a very rich man, having been married twice. After his death, it turned out that the annual income of his estates was 1432 pounds, although many believed that he actually received much more. His coat of arms was very simple - a red rafter on a gold field.


Thomas de Beauchamp, 11th Earl of Warwick (1313–1369) is another famous figure

A commander in the Hundred Years' War, Earl Marshal of England from 1343/1344, son of Guy de Beauchamp, 10th Earl of Warwick, and Alice de Tosny, daughter of Ralph VII de Tosny. He became famous for the fact that in 1346, while landing in France with Edward III, Thomas, along with his squire and only six archers, attacked a French detachment of 100 men who were trying to prevent the landing. They killed 60 Frenchmen, the rest fled in disgrace. He fought in France under the command of the Black Prince and even distinguished himself in the crusade against the pagan Prussians. He most likely died of the plague, but... he could well have been poisoned by envious people.

William Montagu, 2nd Earl of Salisbury (1328–1397) was an active participant in the Hundred Years' War and an associate of Kings Edward III and Richard II, whom he helped suppress the rebellion of Wat Tyler. He was knighted by the Prince of Wales himself in France in 1346 and achieved the title of King of the Isle of Man. But he had the misfortune of dying in a tournament. He left no descendants.


William Montague figurine. The quality of the painting done by the masters of Silver Dream Studio is amazing

And here is the last "hero" in the company of the Knights of the Round Table of Edward III - Jean III de Grailly or de Grailly (1331-1376) - Captal de Buch (1343), Viscount of Benoge and Castillon, Count of Bigorre since 1369, a French lord, but during the Hundred Years' War he fought on the side of England and was even among the 25 founding knights of the Order of the Garter. In the Battle of Poitiers with a detachment of Gascon knights he went behind the French lines, which, according to historians, was the main reason for their defeat. Received the county of Bigorre from the Black Prince. He died in captivity among the French in the Temple castle, having learned of the death of the Black Prince. Although he was married, he had no children and bequeathed all his lands to his uncle.


Jean III de Grailly is the last of the 26… The black cross in his coat of arms is decorated with the shells of St. James of Compostela

This is what they were like, the "knights without fear and reproach", members of not the legendary, but the very real "Round Table" organized by King Edward III. Of course, it is difficult to say how accurately their figures are depicted in metal and painted. However, one thing is clear: the sculptors, casters and artists who worked on them tried hard!
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  1. +2
    5 March 2025 04: 56
    Cool!!!!!!!!
    I know there aren't enough letters.
    1. +3
      5 March 2025 07: 36
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Cool!!!!!!!!

      I also really liked the figures and the painting. The painting is absolutely stunning!
      1. +4
        5 March 2025 13: 59
        A beautiful article, although it is not entirely clear why in an article about the Knights of the Round Table of the English King Edward III in the epigraph there is a quote from Chapter 25 of Exodus - about how the ark should be created?
        1. +1
          5 March 2025 18: 05
          Quote: Richard
          about what the ark should be created like?

          Doesn't it say something about a table?
          1. +3
            5 March 2025 18: 19
            There is not a word about the table of King Edward III. Moreover, in the canonical text of Exodus, Chapter 25, "The Lord's commandments about the construction of the tabernacle; 10 arks; 23 tables; 31 lampstands." The phrase with the word "Table" is simply taken out of context by you. link:https://azbyka.ru/biblia/?Ex.25&r.
            And in relation to the text of the article, the epigraph is simply meaningless.
            1. +1
              5 March 2025 18: 21
              Quote: Richard
              The phrase with the word "Table" is simply taken out of context by you. link: https://azbyka.ru/biblia/?Ex.25&r.

              “And you shall make a table of shittim wood, two cubits long, a cubit wide, and a cubit and a half high,”
              Exodus 25:23

              Synodal translation +
              And you shall make a table of shittim wood, two cubits long, a cubit wide, and a cubit and a half high.
              Exodus 25:23 — Exodus 25:23: https://bible.by/verse/2/25/23/


              Exodus, chapter 25 (Ex.25) in Russian - Old Testament...
              azbyka.ru›biblia/?Ex.25&r
              And thou shalt make a table of shittim wood, two cubits long, a cubit wide, and a cubit and a half high; and thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make a crown of gold round about it. WHAT'S WRONG?
              1. +2
                5 March 2025 18: 54
                WHAT'S WRONG?

                Above I have already explained my bewilderment, why in relation to the text of the article the epigraph is simply meaningless. But in any case I am not your boss. Write what you want - you are the Author.
                1. +2
                  5 March 2025 19: 09
                  Quote: Richard
                  Write whatever you want-

                  The title of the article contains the word "table" and it is also in the epigraph.
  2. +7
    5 March 2025 06: 15
    In particular, it was to him that the king entrusted the pawning of his crown and jewels in order to raise money for the war.
    True, it later became clear that the war, at the initial stage, did not bring any special financial benefits; Edward was forced to declare a default on his debt obligations, which caused the first economic crisis in Europe.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  3. +4
    5 March 2025 06: 57
    Expensive collection! But it looks great!
    P.S. You can find anything in a pawnshop)) even an English crown.
    "There will be a gilded city here"
  4. +4
    5 March 2025 07: 50
    William Montagu, 2nd Earl of Salisbury (1328–1397)
    It is worth noting that this is a representative of the second generation of Earls of Salisbury. The first dynasty, Longspae, ended with Thomas Platangenet in 1322, on the scaffold. The earldom was confiscated, the title abolished.
  5. +1
    5 March 2025 07: 50
    You did a great job!

    Thank you for the article
  6. +3
    5 March 2025 08: 07
    He was knighted by the Prince of Wales himself in France in 1346 and achieved the title of King of the Isle of Man.

    I have a small collection of coins from the Isle of Man. On the front is Cats, on the reverse is the Queen of Great Britain.
    1. +3
      5 March 2025 09: 53
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I have a small collection of coins from the Isle of Man. On the front is Cats, on the reverse is the Queen of Great Britain.

      Wow, our readers have it at home!!! And did you make the tablet yourself?
      1. +5
        5 March 2025 11: 12
        Yes, as a New Year's gift for my daughter.
        1. +3
          5 March 2025 13: 26
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Yes, as a New Year's gift for my daughter.

          Now you need to make a ship to stand on your mantelpiece or in some other pleasant place and cause questions and envy of guests. If you want, I will share the drawings and sails, as I make my own...
          1. +6
            5 March 2025 15: 26
            Quote: kalibr
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Yes, as a New Year's gift for my daughter.

            Now you need to make a ship to stand on your mantelpiece or in some other pleasant place and cause questions and envy of guests. If you want, I will share the drawings and sails, as I make my own...

            Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich for your concern!
            My small collection in "another nice place".
            1. +3
              5 March 2025 18: 07
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              My small collection

              Well, you are a master! It is doubly pleasant to communicate with such people!
            2. +2
              5 March 2025 18: 25
              My small collection

              It's amazing, I can't stand it! )))
              Well, here you go -- I picked up some words in the Sniper Saga wassat )))
              But what skill! hi
              1. +2
                5 March 2025 21: 04
                My respects, Vyacheslav Olegovich and Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
                Thanks for the kind words!
  7. +3
    5 March 2025 08: 22
    It all ended naturally: the young king came of age and fiercely hated his mother's lover.

    It would have been more natural if Montimere had killed Edward III after killing Edward II.
    It is unclear what he was hoping for by leaving his son alive...
    1. +3
      5 March 2025 09: 19
      A living heir to the throne, who also took an oath of homage to the King of France, is the only guarantee of maintaining power for Isabella and Mortimer. For which everything was started.
  8. +3
    5 March 2025 09: 07
    Good morning and day to all!!! )))
    While I'm reading, I've already managed to admire the naive cruelty of the era - how hatred sought and found not so much a public and educational outlet and
    satisfaction with justice, as much as it reflected the dual nature of man - the presence of both God and the Devil in the soul...
    It's much simpler with animals - you catch them, kill them and eat them. Man invented painful executions!
    1. +4
      5 March 2025 09: 32
      the presence of both God and the Devil in the soul...
      You are falling into the Albigensian heresy.
      Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
      1. +3
        5 March 2025 09: 53
        Hello...

        Hello Anton! )))
        Well, what's going on, as they say! I mean the windy weather on the forum. It looks like everything is heading towards a thunderstorm.
        But more specifically, what's wrong with the Albigenses? By the way, we once had a conversation about them here.
        Can you explain?)))
        1. +4
          5 March 2025 10: 47
          Did I say that the Cathars were bad? From the point of view of historical hindsight - not at all. And even the very good ones, unlike their opponents, did not kill or burn anyone. They simply encroached on the established world order, but this is already from the position of the medieval mentality.
      2. Fat
        +3
        5 March 2025 14: 56
        Hi, Anton. This is most likely the heresy of the Cathars, however, the Albigenses are the same "good Christians" and even worse in terms of dualism...:
        You "branded" Lyudmila Yakovlevna, but she, out of purity and kindness of soul and sincerely laughing
        1. +2
          5 March 2025 15: 23
          Hello Borisych!
          The heresy of the Cathars and the Albigensians is not very different.
          And he did not brand anyone, but only humbly warned against possible mistakes, the daughter doubting His plan...
    2. +3
      5 March 2025 09: 55
      Quote: depressant
      Man invented painful executions!

      You don't even have to say it! He's a real beast!!!
      1. +3
        5 March 2025 10: 08
        What a beast!!!

        Yeah)))
        But in that simple era, when cunning had not yet been used to develop subtle diplomatic techniques (like choking on a bone, we bury him with honor, even though we grit our teeth when making speeches, like, how much good the deceased did for the crown) - all this seems like PR to us, civilized people, but for them, without looking back at those around them, it was sweet revenge without understanding that they were feeding their own Devil )))
        1. +3
          5 March 2025 10: 15
          Quote: depressant
          all this seems like PR to us, civilized people, but for them, without looking back at those around them, it was sweet revenge without understanding that they were feeding their own Devil

          I have an e-book (free), mine and my daughter's: "The History of Public Relations". It's all described in detail there...
          1. +2
            5 March 2025 10: 27
            There it is all described in detail...

            About 10 years ago, to my great surprise, I discovered that I had lost the ability to hate. If you don't like someone, bypass them! Don't communicate with them! Then a desire for forgiveness arose, but attempts to quietly mend fences failed. Now I am at the stage of understanding, and this is diplomacy, which I am not capable of. Diplomacy is a talent! History knows many talented diplomats. For example, Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord.
            And I'm not him, I'm a champion in football! )))
            And so, speaking about the personalities of the era of the Knights of the Round Table, I keep thinking about what the “well-wisher” will latch onto in order to throw out my comment with the help of administrative force and hang another warning on me wassat )))))
    3. Fat
      +3
      5 March 2025 15: 14
      Let there be light in You
      prayer and cathedral,
      let the twilight be like tamarisk,
      let there be light
      in your crimson headlights,
      when you slow down in the twilight.
      But here my hobby is replaced by love.
      Life is split? Don't say so!
      It smells like the Middle Ages outside the windows.
      That's why I make stained glass windows.
      Man is 60% chemicals
      40% of lies and rye ...
      But 1% of Michelangelo!
      That's why I make stained glass windows.
      But here my hobby is theosophy.
      Bubbles inside the chips
      they cost as much as Borjomi.
      I'll nail a stained glass window to the plank gate.
      Let the forest confess
      in front of the stained glass window.
      But this already concerns life, not art.
      Epoxy resin burns my lungs.
      I was offered (on occasion)
      Eliseev chandelier.
      Thank you, Mala.
      The dealers are looking at me,
      the deceived swifts peck.
      Cobblestones are aimed at me.
      That's why I make stained glass. (C)
      It was a fragment of Voznesensky's poem "Hobby of Light" from 1975.
      What a great girl you are, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
      1. +2
        5 March 2025 15: 18
        What a great girl you are, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.

        And you, dear Andrey Borisovich?
        There are no words to describe how much I admire you, how much I appreciate you!
        love love love )))))
  9. +4
    5 March 2025 10: 19
    And this is how Roger Mortimer (1287 – November 29, 1330) appears in miniature – 3rd Baron Wigmore, Lord Mortimer from 1304, 1st Earl of March from 1328
    But this is a very specific jamb, I don't know whose, either the miniature makers, or the author who trusted them. Because most of the historical figures could not sit at the same table with Mortimer, due to their youth at the time of his execution. And Edward III convened the first "Round Table" 14 years after the death of Sir Roger.
    1. +2
      5 March 2025 11: 02
      But this is a very specific problem.

      Anton, are you sure you have chosen the right profession?)))
      I bet all the secrets of the Middle Ages have already been revealed - you should have become an investigator! A blue shirt, a look like the black holes of a double-barreled shotgun and tapping a pencil on the table as a method of hypnosis - no? wassat )))
      1. +3
        5 March 2025 11: 20
        You should have become an investigator!
        Or a gynecologist. They also have a cool head, a warm heart, and most importantly - clean hands!
        1. +1
          5 March 2025 11: 33
          clean hands!

          A midwife! You?
          If in the setting of the Middle Ages.
          wassat )))
          1. +4
            5 March 2025 11: 43
            In the medieval setting, this is an exclusively female profession.
      2. +3
        5 March 2025 11: 40
        I bet all the secrets of the Middle Ages have already been revealed wassat

        Good afternoon, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
        Why such incomprehensible sarcasm? Why? Does Anton write wrong things? What's wrong with a person who loves and knows history well? Personally, I really like his comments - short, succinct, always to the point, always to the point and very literate.
        1. +2
          5 March 2025 12: 29
          Why such incomprehensible sarcasm? Why? Is Anton writing...

          Dmitry Vasilyevich, my dear, have mercy! I'm just making fun of Anton, good-naturedly, we are our own people, we should understand everything. I just wanted to convey my cheerful mood to those around me - and what else could there be at the peak of political absurdity? Maybe Homeric laughter, I haven't matured to that yet, but everything is ahead. And the Hundred Years' War will end someday.
          1. +4
            5 March 2025 12: 33
            and what else could there be at the peak of political absurdity? Maybe Homeric laughter, it hasn't matured to that yet, but everything is ahead. And the Hundred Years' War will end someday anyway.
            1. +1
              5 March 2025 12: 37
              Anton, a short comment -- cool!
              And who could Arestovich have been during that Hundred Years' War? I can't imagine.
              1. +4
                5 March 2025 13: 07
                I don't know who he could have been, but he would have been buried outside the cemetery fence. According to the first specialty.
        2. +4
          5 March 2025 12: 36
          Personally, I really like his comments - short, concise, always to the point, always to the point and very competent.
          Thank you Dima!
          But I also like to play the fool!
    2. +2
      5 March 2025 13: 21
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I don't know whose it is,

      The hero's name is on the photo!
      1. +3
        5 March 2025 13: 39
        So, Vyacheslav Olegovich, this is a mistake by the manufacturers, and you did not check the information.
        1. +1
          5 March 2025 13: 40
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          and you haven't checked the information.

          Check under each photo - the "checker" will fall off...
          1. +3
            5 March 2025 19: 00
            Well done, Vyacheslav Olegovich! I call it: technically merging.
  10. +4
    5 March 2025 11: 04
    According to the ancient Roman historian Dio Cassius, in 176, the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius sent 5500 Sarmatian horsemen to serve in the Roman legions stationed in Britain. After Rome left the British Isles, the Sarmatian Uls fought with the Picts for centuries, periodically capturing and losing the conquered territories and even often fighting for them among themselves. Naturally, the Sarmatian leaders did not have any special coats of arms at that time. At first, according to J. Torren and M.K. Shelkovenko, they had ordinary legionary Roman red vexillums (vexillum), then during the period of civil strife, signs of family and personal property (brand, tamga, stamp) began to appear on these vexillums to identify friend or foe. They denoted belonging to a particular tribal or territorial entity. The authoritative French medievalist historian and vice-president of the French Heraldry Society, Michel Pastoureau, writes in his work “Symbolic History of the European Middle Ages”:
    "....The very concept of "coat of arms" arose only during the first crusades (11th - 12th centuries), when knights clad in armor began to place their family or personal emblems on their shields in order to recognize each other in battle. The main part of any coat of arms - the heraldic shield - has survived from this time. The coat of arms not only confirmed the identity and noble origin of the knight, but also symbolized his dignity and power over the lands belonging to him. Later, European cities that were gaining independence began to acquire coats of arms, and coats of arms of lands and states were formed. European monarchs used coats of arms in their seals to indicate the lands subject to them, and therefore their power."... (c)

    Now let's return to the supposed coat of arms of King Arthur. Modern Internet medievalists, based on the miniatures of the 13th-15th centuries, often depict it - either with three crowns on an azure background, or thirteen, or in the form of a golden dragon on a red background. Once again, I repeat, in fact, the contemporaries of the legendary Arthur could not have had any coat of arms - the time of personal coats of arms had not yet come. But there was a family tamga. According to the chronicle of Geoffrey of Monmouth, Arthur's father Water, later nicknamed Pendragon, was the youngest of the three sons of the Sarmatian leader Constantinos.
    According to the Grail legend cycle, the then tribal Sarmatian leader Ambrose Aurelian, Uther's elder brother, saw a comet in the sky that looked like a dragon before the battle. He took this as a sign of impending victory, chose the dragon as his tamga and ordered a dragon to be depicted on his vexillum, for which he and his people were nicknamed Pendragons. After his death, first his middle brother Fataeg ​​took this tamga for himself, and after Fataeg's death, this tamga was inherited by Arthur's future father Water, Ambrose's younger brother. This tribal tamga gave the name to the entire dynasty to which King Arthur belonged - Pendragons.
    So the dragon in the photo of the movie Arthur has every right to exist, though not on the surcoat, as in the photo, but on his vexellum. Prada is probably more primitive and not as blackened as in the movie photo.
    1. +3
      5 March 2025 12: 44
      In fact, the contemporaries of the legendary Arthur could not have had any coat of arms - the time of personal coats of arms had not yet arrived.

      By the way, I read a long excerpt from your comment to my family having dinner, and received a competent response:
      -- Well, yes.
      wassat )))
      1. +3
        5 March 2025 13: 43
        I read aloud an excerpt from your comment to my family having dinner, and received a competent response: “Well, yes.”
        wassat

        Thanks for the minus, of course, but in vain. smile I make absolutely no claim to historical truth. Guessing about the hypothetical coat of arms of the hypothetical Arthur is, alas, only hypothetical Yes It’s just that as a person who is not indifferent to heraldry, I am offended by the attempts of numerous modern Internet medievalists and film consultants to foist his own coat of arms on the legendary King Arthur.
        This is actually the essence of my commentary, in which I cited quotes from the "Roman History" by the ancient Roman historian Lucius Claudius Cassius Dio Cocceanus, better known as Dio Cassius; "The History of the Kings of the Britons", written around 1136 by Geoffrey of Monmouth; the work of Emma Jung and Marie-Louise von Franz "The Grail and King Arthur Legends"; and from the scholarly works of J. Torren, Michel Pastoureau and M.K. Shelkovenko.
        If your dining family has any specific disagreements or comments on this issue raised in my comment, I would really like to hear their opinion. Naturally, after they have dined.
        1. +3
          5 March 2025 14: 06
          Thanks for the minus, of course, but in vain.

          Dmitry Vasilyevich, how could you think that I put a minus?
          ((( crying )))
          1. +3
            5 March 2025 14: 53
            as you might think

            What's there to think about for long? After I expressed my bewilderment about your sarcasm regarding Anton's comment, I immediately received a minus and your comment with a sarcasm smiley directly addressed to me. Coincidence? I don't think so.
            1. +4
              5 March 2025 15: 10
              I immediately got a minus from you too

              Dmitry Vasilievich, when I first joined the forum, I deleted several minuses. Olgovich had two of them, he will confirm. Naturally, I was able to remove only one. And someone else's.
              So.
              It is quite obvious that there are offended people on duty at the forum (You haven't been on the forum yet, and Olgovich has two minuses! That means there are at least two of them).
              They don't write comments. Their task is to make the forum old-timers quarrel, to make the offended leave. That's how I was - I almost left after they instigated 5 of my comments to be deleted (or 4? I don't remember exactly).
              Why is this being done? To harm Vyacheslav Olegovich. There are users of the site who do not like him, considering him one of the culprits of the collapse of the USSR.
              1. +4
                5 March 2025 15: 29
                So there are at least two of them).
                Four, half of them are just slacking off today.
                As for Olgovich, he has his own fan club.
                1. +4
                  5 March 2025 15: 33
                  As for Olgovich, he has his own fan club.

                  Anton, you are one of the rare people who know how to make me laugh.
                  Olgovich Fan Club...
                  I laughed until I dropped!
                  good drinks wassat )))
                  1. +5
                    5 March 2025 15: 37
                    I laughed until I dropped!
                    My day was not wasted!
  11. +1
    5 March 2025 12: 59
    Quote: Richard
    According to the ancient Roman historian Dio Cassius, in 176, the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius sent 5500 Sarmatian horsemen to serve in the Roman legions stationed in Britain. After Rome left the British Isles, the Sarmatian Uls fought with the Picts for centuries, periodically capturing and losing the conquered territories and even often fighting for them among themselves. Naturally, the Sarmatian leaders did not have any special coats of arms at that time. At first, according to J. Torren and M.K. Shelkovenko, they had ordinary legionary Roman red vexillums (vexillum), then during the period of civil strife, signs of family and personal property (brand, tamga, stamp) began to appear on these vexillums to identify friend or foe. They denoted belonging to a particular tribal or territorial entity. The authoritative French medievalist historian and vice-president of the French Heraldry Society, Michel Pastoureau, writes in his work “Symbolic History of the European Middle Ages”:
    "....The very concept of "coat of arms" arose only during the first crusades (11th - 12th centuries), when knights clad in armor began to place their family or personal emblems on their shields in order to recognize each other in battle. The main part of any coat of arms - the heraldic shield - has survived from this time. The coat of arms not only confirmed the identity and noble origin of the knight, but also symbolized his dignity and power over the lands belonging to him. Later, European cities that were gaining independence began to acquire coats of arms, and coats of arms of lands and states were formed. European monarchs used coats of arms in their seals to indicate the lands subject to them, and therefore their power."... (c)

    Now let's return to the supposed coat of arms of King Arthur. Modern Internet medievalists, based on the miniatures of the 13th-15th centuries, often depict it - either with three crowns on an azure background, or thirteen, or in the form of a golden dragon on a red background. Once again, I repeat, in fact, the contemporaries of the legendary Arthur could not have had any coat of arms - the time of personal coats of arms had not yet come. But there was a family tamga. According to the chronicle of Geoffrey of Monmouth, Arthur's father Water, later nicknamed Pendragon, was the youngest of the three sons of the Sarmatian leader Constantinos.
    According to the Grail legend cycle, the then tribal Sarmatian leader Ambrose Aurelian, Uther's elder brother, saw a comet in the sky that looked like a dragon before the battle. He took this as a sign of impending victory, chose the dragon as his tamga and ordered a dragon to be depicted on his vexillum, for which he and his people were nicknamed Pendragons. After his death, first his middle brother Fataeg ​​took this tamga for himself, and after Fataeg's death, this tamga was inherited by Arthur's future father Water, Ambrose's younger brother. This tribal tamga gave the name to the entire dynasty to which King Arthur belonged - Pendragons.
    So the dragon in the photo of the movie Arthur has every right to exist, though not on the surcoat, as in the photo, but on his vexellum. Prada is probably more primitive and not as blackened as in the movie photo.

    This has always puzzled me - how did they know about dragons? They don't find bones!
    1. Fat
      +3
      5 March 2025 15: 57
      Quote: depressant
      This has always puzzled me - how did they know about dragons? They don't find bones!

      This is because the knights fought the dragons so thoroughly that now there are no bones left to collect.
      1. +2
        5 March 2025 16: 29
        The dragons were fought so thoroughly that now you can't even collect the bones
        Or maybe the knights also ate them?
        What happened? They gutted him, put him on a spit, then gave him a piece with the bone to the soldiers, they crawled away, each in their own direction, ate him, scattered the bones around, some took the pieces with them, some crunched them with the bone, and the excavation is limited to an area.
        And now the unfortunate archaeologists and paleontologists, having racked their brains over which dinosaur it belongs to, send the bones to storage - let the candidates of science collect them into specimens.
        Not collected.
      2. +5
        5 March 2025 17: 08
        that now you can't even collect the bones

        Hello, Andrey Borisovich!
        Type in the search "Dragon bones in the Basilica of Santa Maria e Donato.
        Behind the altar of this Venetian church hang the enormous ribs of a dragon, said to have been killed by Saint Donatus in the 1th century. (Photo XNUMX)
        The history of the Cathedral of Santa Maria e Donato dates back to the 1125th century, when the islands that make up the Venetian archipelago were separate communities of people seeking refuge from barbarian invasions. The cathedral has existed in its current form since the XNUMXth century. Initially, the church was dedicated only to the Virgin Mary, and the second part of the name, associated with Saint Donatus, was added in XNUMX after the remains of the saint and the dragon he allegedly killed were brought from the Greek island of Cephalonia by the Venetian Doge Domenico Michiel.
        The origin and history of animal bones before the 1120th century are unknown. What is indisputable is that in the 1118s, Doge Domenico Michiel sailed on a crusade to the Holy Land to help the besieged King of Jerusalem, Baldwin II. Venice's main goal was to break the blockade of the eastern Mediterranean, but given Venice's tense relations with Byzantium (in XNUMX, Constantinople abolished the trade privileges previously in effect for Venetian merchants), Michiel was in no hurry to see Baldwin, plundering Byzantine Greece along the way. Among the loot were the relics of St. Donatus and the bones of a "dragon."

        The church officials do not allow scientists to examine the type and age of the bones. However, many paleontologists agree that these are the ribs of the herbivorous pachycephalosaurus Stygimoloch, which lived in forests and at the end of the Cretaceous period. This dinosaur was a herbivore and reached 3,5 meters in length and weighed about 200 kg. Not photo 3 skeleton of Stygmoloch Dracorex hogwartsia from the Indianapolis Museum in South Dakota
        1. Fat
          +3
          5 March 2025 17: 29
          Greetings, Dmitry. If you advise, I will read it. However, I treat such artifacts more as curiosities, too much for the fact that what is presented is a hoax. smile
          1. +4
            5 March 2025 17: 36
            too much for the fact that what is presented is a hoax
            .
            Only a scientific examination can determine whether this is a hoax or not, but the Catholic Church does not give its approval for this.
    2. +1
      5 March 2025 16: 52
      Quote: depressant
      This has always puzzled me - how did they know about dragons? They don't find bones!

      "...the Emperor Marcus Aurelius sent 5500 Sarmatian horsemen to serve in the Roman legions stationed in Britain... ."
      We learned about it from the Sarmatians, and they learned about it from the Chinese. wink
      1. +1
        5 March 2025 17: 04
        We learned about it from the Sarmatians, and they learned about it from the Chinese.

        Do you know what always amazed me? The communications of the ancients, and even in the Middle Ages. There was no aviation, no railway communication, I won't even mention cars, but the connections were such that it seemed as if news, knowledge and technology were spreading throughout the entire Oikumene instantly - that's how it looks.
        1. +3
          5 March 2025 17: 08
          Quote: depressant
          You know what always amazed me? The communications of the ancients, and even in the Middle Ages.

          In the East they say: "Uzun-kulak" (long ear). wink
          I assume that the ubiquitous merchants are the culprits.
          1. +2
            5 March 2025 17: 35
            "Uzun-fist"

            In connection with the Eastern term, I would like to share a shock I experienced a few minutes ago.
            I went to the telegram channel "Stalingrad". Video. Windsor Castle, the cradle of the British monarchy since the 11th century. A majestic long room. The ceiling is divided by thin beams into cells, each of which contains coats of arms. The entire ceiling! Above the dark wooden panels is a strip with cells containing shields. Above the shields, in addition to huge lamps, are portraits of English kings...
            And here in this room, in the official residence of Charles III, the mullah sings his song-prayer, raising it to Allah, and the dark figures of countless Muslims each raise their own prayer to Allah...
            The first moment - was it created by AI? And then I remembered a statement in the press that England is the first Muslim country in the European Union.
            Napoleon once, looking at St. Basil's Cathedral, stubbornly and dismissively called it a mosque.
            I feel like I'm forever out of touch with life and don't understand something very important about it.
            1. +1
              5 March 2025 17: 45
              Quote: depressant
              And here in this room, in the official residence of Charles III, the mullah sings his song-prayer, raising it to Allah, and the dark figures of countless Muslims each raise their own prayer to Allah...

              "People are provoking us into great trouble." Moscow mufti allows Muslims to pray in Orthodox churches"
              https://antifashist.com/item/lyudi-provociruyut-nas-na-bolshuyu-bedu-moskovskij-muftij-razreshil-musulmanam-molitsya-v-pravoslavnyh-hramah.html

              Quote: depressant
              I feel like I'm forever out of touch with life and don't understand something very important about it.

              You are not the only one who feels this way.
              Maybe you are too literate and intelligent? wink
              1. +2
                5 March 2025 18: 02
                You are not the only one who has this feeling.

                Yes, I read about this permission from the Moscow mufti and took it as a joke. Did he ask permission from the Orthodox priests and flock? It's like brazenly barging into someone else's house and starting to live there. They already have a sense of ownership, and they perceive us as outsiders. Who would have thought of this 10 years ago?
                Well, okay, we've strayed from the topic. Windsor Castle was taken away by accident.
                1. +1
                  5 March 2025 18: 55
                  Quote: depressant
                  Well, okay, we've strayed from the topic. Windsor Castle was taken away by accident.

                  Yes, this is a provocation. "You don't go to someone else's monastery with your own rules."
                  To the topic.
                  The image of a noble and faithful knight has been created for centuries. You read biographies and see greedy, seeking profit, robbery, unprincipled, insidious people with swords. At least a round table, at least a square one. Not to plow the land or herd sheep. There was such a right - everything to the eldest, the sword to the rest. The rest were like a traffic cop - a striped baton. wink
                  1. +2
                    5 March 2025 19: 12
                    The image of a noble and faithful knight has been created for centuries. You read biographies and see greedy, profit-seeking, robbery-seeking, unprincipled, insidious people with swords.
                    What's the problem? That the negative characters in the novel "Ivanhoe" are a normal, everyday reality of the Middle Ages? Doesn't it bother you that such people are our everyday reality? Why should they be different?
                    1. +2
                      5 March 2025 19: 33
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      What's the problem?

                      Because honor and conscience are not synonymous with meanness and sadism. Our country also suffered from the robbery of the "noble" crusaders.
                      Substitution.
                      A bridge in our time? In our days, Banderovites are "noble defenders of the Motherland and democracy", and our warriors are "from the darkness".
                      1. +2
                        5 March 2025 19: 44
                        You may be surprised, but the concepts of "honor and conscience" changed greatly, and several times, within the Middle Ages.
                      2. +2
                        5 March 2025 19: 48
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        You may be surprised, but the concepts of "honor and conscience" changed greatly, and several times, within the Middle Ages.

                        No. You can't blame that time using the principles of modern morality.
                      3. +2
                        5 March 2025 19: 56
                        One cannot blame that time using the principles of modern morality.
                        So what am I talking about?
                      4. +2
                        5 March 2025 20: 34
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        So what am I talking about?

                        The Ten Commandments had already existed for over 1000 years.
                      5. Fat
                        +3
                        5 March 2025 20: 53
                        This is not a substitution, but a double standard; in 19th century Russia they most often said "Hottentot ethics".
                        The Hottentot answered the missionary that he knew about good and evil. Good is when I take away my neighbor's flock and wife, and evil is when my neighbor drives away my flock and takes my wife...
                        intelligence officer - spy
                        Informant - snitch
                        Partisan - terrorist
                        National liberation movement - separatism
            2. +4
              5 March 2025 17: 55
              Now imagine how shocked the inhabitants of the Roman Empire were when Constantine destroyed their temples and melted down the golden statues of their gods, with the goal of carrying out monetary reform?
              1. +2
                5 March 2025 18: 07
                Now imagine how shocked the inhabitants of the Roman Empire were

                I figured it out. And I realized that history consists of the population being completely dumbfounded, which historians often keep silent about.
                1. +1
                  5 March 2025 18: 31
                  They are not hiding anything! It is just that due to our little knowledge of history and the vanity of the current moment, we sometimes cannot try on situations that have already taken place. In general: "everything has been stolen before us"...
    3. +3
      5 March 2025 18: 59
      How did they know about dragons? They don't find any bones!
      Why don't they find them? Weren't bones of various dinosaurs and other fossils found at that time? It's clear that Cuvier was much later, but the bones were there before him.
      1. +2
        5 March 2025 19: 24
        Cuvier was much later, but the bones were there before him.

        There were bones.
        And the knights could see these bones. And the artists. Bones that were clearly different from the bones of animals in the surrounding world. Considering that in those days hunting was a common activity, and hunters knew perfectly well what the bones of contemporary animals and birds looked like. And here is something non-trivial. And how to recreate the appearance of an animal without seeing it alive? This is the question that interested me.
        It turns out that according to the oral stories of merchants who communicated with Chinese merchants, and they told their legends, there may have been drawings on fabrics. China lives a very long time and remembers everything )))
        1. +3
          5 March 2025 19: 41
          It turns out that, according to the oral stories of merchants who communicated with Chinese merchants, and they told their legends,
          The Chinese are very much in place here, it was in the Gobi Desert that our famous paleontologist (and part-time science fiction writer) Ivan Efremov discovered a huge dinosaur cemetery. In Marco Polo's time, these bones were probably not yet too buried.
  12. +4
    5 March 2025 13: 16
    I already wrote this in another comment, but I wanted to rewrite it because it also applies to this article, which talks about the round table. In Tuscany, in the cathedral of San Galgano, you can see a real sword embedded in stone. They write that the legend was born here, and then brought back to England.
    1. +5
      5 March 2025 14: 45
      They write that the legend was born here and then brought back to England.
      Hello Michael!
      They flatter themselves. The fact is that the knight Galgano, who founded the abbey and was later canonized, to whom the artifact is attributed, lived in the 12th century. That is, he was a contemporary of the first surviving records of King Arthur. Accordingly, the legend appeared in England much earlier.
      1. +2
        5 March 2025 19: 47
        Thanks for the information. Probably in the scientific programs on Italian TV they tell us a false version, to increase tourism. Therefore, both people living in Italy and guests from abroad will go there to see this artifact, believing that it is the "real" sword of Arthur. However, it must be said that both the remains of the abbey, now without a roof, and the sword have their own historical charm.
        1. +2
          5 March 2025 19: 53
          However, it must be said that both the remains of the abbey, now roofless, and the sword have their own historical charm.
          The abbey has it, but not the sword.
        2. +1
          9 March 2025 13: 11
          I doubt that the flow of tourists to Italy will decrease if they stop telling this legend).
          1. 0
            9 March 2025 13: 49
            It is obvious that tourism in Italy will not decrease. This story, like the story of the Loch Ness monster, was created to attract people from outside to increase the financial income of these small villages.
  13. +2
    5 March 2025 14: 03
    And here's why he is "black", although his effigy in Canterbury Cathedral is dressed in a heraldic jupon

    Djupon... Isn't this where the Polish and then Ukrainian "zhupan" - a small caftan - comes from?
    1. Fat
      +4
      5 March 2025 18: 07
      According to linguist Erich Bernecker, the word "zhupan" comes from Italian giuppone, giubbone (from Italian - a man's caftan made of coarse fabric, a peasant caftan, a jacket) - an augmentative of English giubba, giuppa (see French jupe), which goes back to Arabic جبة‎ (from which also come Russian shuba, Russian skirt). This is what Wiki thinks.
      I have also come across a jupon. A jupon is a skirt, a short skirt; an underskirt...
      These are such interesting "derivatives"
      1. +4
        5 March 2025 18: 10
        According to the linguist

        What I liked most was that the zhupan came from... a Russian fur coat! Only with fish fur )))
      2. +4
        5 March 2025 18: 37
        In general, the author, who himself has a poor understanding of the names of elements of medieval clothing, confuses readers.
        1. Fat
          +2
          5 March 2025 19: 12
          Effigy of the Black Prince. The lying knight is indeed wearing a short decorated jupon, like a tunic... Find a photo and see for yourself (I couldn't insert a photo) request
          1. +3
            5 March 2025 19: 20
            It may be jupon, but to me it's kotta.
            1. +3
              5 March 2025 20: 58
              Well, what kind of sleeveless jupon is that? And with a typical slit. Definitely a short kotta