On the role of heavy cruisers in the fight for communications in World War II

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On the role of heavy cruisers in the fight for communications in World War II

As is well known, the success of armed forces largely depends on the systematicity of their construction and use. This simple thesis is very important in assessing the possible role of "Washington" cruisers in the fight against enemy shipping. The question is not what such a cruiser could do on communications as a proud loner, but whether it could become a useful and important element of the system of counteraction to enemy sea transportation during the Second World War.

In this article I will consider the tasks of fighting on communications, which could be solved by ships of the "cruiser" class of special construction, and then we will see how relevant the "Washingtonians" are for solving these tasks.

But before I begin, I must apologize to my esteemed readers for the vagueness of my wording. When I write "specially built cruisers (raiders)", I do not mean a cruiser specially designed and built to fight enemy shipping. I mean only a cruiser that was originally designed as a warship, as opposed to auxiliary cruisers, which were converted civilian ships. That is why I allow myself to call "specially built cruisers", for example, the Kaiser's light cruisers of the First World War, which, in fact, were built for squadron service, but not for ocean raiding.

Means of combating communications in World War II.


Submarines. The emergence of submarines capable of operating on sea and ocean communications became a real revolution in the fight against enemy shipping already in the First World War. It was submarines that became the main weapons interruption of ocean and sea communications. In fact, other means of combating sea transportation have become either auxiliary or providing for the work of submariners. This thesis applies fully to specially built cruisers.

Aviation. As is well known, it was aviation in 1939-1945 that established itself as the main force in the struggle for supremacy in the ocean expanses. Nevertheless, the impact of strike aviation on sea and ocean communications was very limited. Here, the relatively short combat radius of strike aircraft of tactical aviation of those years made itself felt (strategic bombers had a long range, but low effectiveness in naval warfare). Accordingly, as a means of destroying enemy shipping, aviation could only prove itself in a certain proximity to the coast and land airfields, or in the presence of a sufficient number of aircraft carriers carrying strike aviation. But aircraft carriers had enough tasks without destroying transports, and their escort subclass acted as a means of protecting communications, not interrupting them.

Accordingly, in coastal seas the influence of aviation on enemy communications could be decisive, but in distant sea and ocean zones – no. Nevertheless, in the ocean aviation performed an extremely important function of reconnaissance and search for transport ships and warships. This task was carried out by both land-based and ship-based aircraft.

For the specially built corsair cruisers, the development of aviation was a double-edged sword. On the one hand, equipping the raiders with seaplanes greatly increased their situational awareness, allowing them to both spot transports and evade enemy warships. But on the other hand, the same aviation in the hands of communications defenders allowed them to "scan" previously unimaginable areas of the ocean in search of enemy warships.

Auxiliary cruisers. As has been said before, the most important factor in the combat stability of a ship operating on enemy communications is speed. This is true, but this statement is true only for specially built ships. At the same time, during the First World War, the Germans sent not only specialized but also auxiliary cruisers, converted from civilian ships, to communications.

At first, they were also chosen from the fastest, using the same passenger liners. But then it turned out that such liners were too noticeable - there were not many of them in the world. Having discovered a giant passenger ship where it seemed to have nothing to do, the English sailors had every reason to be wary. And the Germans reconsidered their approaches: they began using conversions from ordinary dry cargo ships at sea.

They did not have high speed, but were equipped with good armament, including torpedo tubes. But their main trump card was their invisibility: simply put, their armament was located so that it could not be seen from the side. In some cases - except for one gun, which was equipped with armed steamers of the English, which gave a certain similarity to the latter.

And these measures had an excellent effect. British warships often could not recognize who was in front of them, and even merchant ships did not understand until the very end that that steamship approaching them was in fact an auxiliary cruiser of the Germans. And the latter achieved remarkable results. The most famous corsair of the Kaiser during the First World War, the cruiser Emden, captured 23 merchant ships, destroyed the Zhemchug and a French destroyer, and died with honor in battle during her very first combat mission. And the auxiliary cruiser Mewe, a 13-knot slow-moving ship, made two large ocean voyages and three short raids, during which she sank (with mines) a British battleship and intercepted 41 merchant ships. At the same time, the Mewe was never caught, safely surviving until the end of the First World War.

In World War II, auxiliary cruisers, although they did not demonstrate such outstanding results, still acted very effectively. Thus, "Atlantis" during a raid that lasted almost 2 years, captured and sank 22 ships with a capacity of 145,7 thousand registered tons, which repeatedly justified the costs of its re-equipment and the operation.


The future Atlantis (not yet refitted)

Another auxiliary cruiser, Penguin, achieved similar results - 28 ships with a capacity of 136 thousand GRT during a raid lasting 10,5 months.

About convoys


During World War I, submarines proved to be a terrible enemy of merchant shipping. In this case, a submarine, acting against a single civilian vessel, as a rule, forced it to stop while in the surface position, under the threat of torpedo and artillery attacks. Incidentally, this method of combat was absolutely legal from the point of view of maritime law. It could be countered by equipping merchant ships with artillery, but by using force, a civilian ship and its crew ceased to be considered as such, and in this case its destruction by torpedoes became completely justified. A more effective measure to counter the underwater and air threat was the introduction of a convoy system, when civilian ships were forced to gather in groups of up to several dozen ships and proceed to their destination under the cover of warships.

In essence, the introduction of the convoy system should already be considered as a significant limitation of maritime transportation. In peacetime, ships proceed to their destination port when ready. Now, being fully prepared for the voyage, they were forced to stand idle waiting for a sufficient number of ships to assemble to form a convoy. In addition, merchant ships had different speeds, and a convoy could move at the speed of the slowest ship in its composition. Of course, when forming convoys, they tried to take this fact into account, but still a significant part of the ships that made up the convoys had the technical ability to move at a higher speed than the convoy.

All this, according to some data, reduced cargo transportation by 25% of the pre-war level (with the same number of ships) when the convoy system was introduced, and in itself could be considered a significant impact on the enemy. However, a single submarine could not act against a convoy with the same effectiveness as against single merchant ships. In fact, it could only attack such a convoy from underwater, and to do this it was necessary to be "in the right place at the right time", that is, to take a position on the convoy's route and spend expensive and relatively few torpedoes during the attack.

Submariners did find a way to combat convoys: the so-called "wolf packs." Their essence consisted of a simultaneous attack on a convoy by a large number of submarines, usually at night and on the surface, with torpedoes remaining the main weapon. In this case, the escort forces were scattered, and it was also difficult for them to pursue the submariners after their attack — they had to rescue the crews of the sunken ships.

However, the "wolf pack" was not a panacea for combating convoys, as its tactics were quite difficult to implement. The Germans carried out an attack like this. First, the convoy was detected either by long-range multi-purpose aircraft (Focke-Wulf Fw 200 "Condor") or a submarine.


Information about the convoy was transmitted to the submarine command headquarters fleet (Befehlshaber der Unterseebooten, abbreviated BdU), and it was already targeting a convoy of other submarines. Organizing such an attack was very complicated, but even in case of success, losses were to be expected: after all, it was difficult for a submarine in a surface position to compete with a frigate, not to mention a destroyer.

But the main problem was that the submarines included in the "wolf pack" had to make the transition to the assembly point/attack line in the surface position. The same applied to the submarine that detected the convoy - it was forced to follow a parallel course until darkness fell. The reason for this is obvious: the batteries of diesel-electric submarines did not provide either the speed or the range to make such transitions.

This is why escort aircraft carriers became such an important means of combating "wolf packs." Aircraft based on them could detect submarines making a transition in a surface position and attack them, forcing them to go underwater. And, if it was rational, they could direct combat escort ships or special groups not connected with convoy protection and intended to search for and destroy submarines.

Land-based aircraft could effectively combat convoys only if they were within their reach and if the pilots were well trained to operate over the sea. Aircraft carriers had their own tasks and could not be involved in systematic "anti-convoy" operations. Auxiliary cruisers focused on intercepting individual merchant ships - they lacked either the speed or the armament to operate against a convoy.

On the tasks of cruisers in the fight for communications during the Second World War


Specially built cruisers had only two forms of combat against enemy shipping. They could search for and attack convoys or hunt for single ships. Moreover, to achieve these goals, different tactics were required.

A cruiser intercepting individual ships would simply enter a busy shipping area and then search for targets on its own. A cruiser hunting a convoy could do the same, but it would still be extremely desirable for it to receive target designation.

In the case of hunting a convoy, the raider had to avoid detection in every possible way: even a group of ships without an escort could disperse, simply running in different directions and thus depriving the cruiser of its "legitimate" prey. Of course, the convoy would disperse at the moment of the raider's attack, but this was already accompanied by significant losses. The cruiser, surpassing civilian ships in speed, chased them and quickly sank them with artillery and torpedoes. As a rule, a single raider could not completely destroy the convoy in such an attack, but it was quite capable of sending 5-7 ships to the bottom.

And again, in some cases, when submarines and aircraft could operate in the area of ​​convoy dispersal, such dispersal in itself could lead to heavy losses. A textbook example is convoy PQ-17. The departure of the German squadron, led by the battleship Tirpitz, led to the convoy dispersing, as a result of which submarines and aircraft destroyed 22 ships, which were carrying 210 aircraft, 430 tanks, 3350 vehicles and 100 tons of other cargo. Moreover, the main reason for the convoy to disperse was precisely the Tirpitz. Of course, there is a conspiracy theory that the British were not afraid of this battleship at all, but simply used its departure as a pretext, sacrificing their people and cargo and receiving in return grounds to stop the passage of northern convoys to the USSR for some time. But even if this were so, if the Germans did not have the Tirpitz, there would be no reason to “disperse” the convoy.


Let's try to compare the cost of the lost cargo of the PQ-17 with the cost of building a German battleship. To do this, we will estimate the cost of the lost cargo in Reichsmarks (RM), as if the transported cargo was produced in Germany. The famous Messerschmitt, according to my data, cost 100 thousand RM, a three-ton truck tractor - 22 thousand RM, but there is a small problem with the T-IV tank. The cost known to me is 103,5-116 thousand RM, but it seems that this amount does not include weapons, equipment and ammunition. Thus, the Tiger tank is estimated at 260 thousand RM, but in full configuration with weapons and fuel - 350 thousand RM. But even taking the cost of the tank at 110 thousand RM, we get:

210 aircraft – 21 million RM;
430 tanks – 47,3 million RM;
3350 vehicles – RM73,7 million.

In total, it turns out to be 142 million Reichsmarks, even without taking into account the cost of 100 tons of other lost cargo and 000 sunken ships. The Tirpitz itself cost something around 22 million RM. That's how it turns out that the construction of the giant battleship Tirpitz, which many fans of the naval stories assessed as nothing less than “money down the drain”, in fact, it paid off with the defeat of a single convoy, forced to disperse under the threat of attack by this ship.

Of course, you can find fault with my calculation method, but other calculations will probably be even sadder. Russian-language sources often indicate that the cost of the cargo transported by PQ-17 was something around 700 million US dollars (according to D. Irving, apparently). About 2/3 of the cargo was lost, so the total losses were around 467 million. The American battleship Iowa cost around 100 million dollars. That is, even if the amount of 700 million is many times overstated (I don’t know, but my gut feeling is that it is), the losses were still extremely high and, in all likelihood, comparable to the cost of a large battleship.

But let's return to the cruisers. Although in some cases convoy dispersion is useful, in the classic version of a raider attacking a convoy it should not have been allowed. Therefore, German cruisers in World War II avoided attacking single British ships while searching for a convoy. If a cruiser was hunting for single ships, then there was no reason to avoid them.

If the attack on the convoy was successful, the cruiser-raider had almost no chance of remaining anonymous. When attacking a single ship, one could count on the fact that it would not be able to use the radio transmitter at all or that its operation would be suppressed by interference, but when attacking a detachment of ships, one could not count on this. Therefore, after attacking the convoy, the cruiser had to either return home or go to other areas, switching to hunting for single ships. And when hunting for singles, the raider could cruise in one area for a long time until there was a threat that its presence there became known to the enemy.

Combat against convoys, with reconnaissance, could be carried out by performing short raids. Combat against single ships required the cruiser to remain on the communications for many months.

So, in my opinion, which does not claim to be the Absolute Truth, during the Second World War, sending a specially built cruiser to hunt for single ships was counterproductive. And here's why.

Some statistics


Let us compare the effectiveness of the “pocket battleships”, one of whose tasks was precisely to operate on the enemy’s communications, and the German auxiliary cruisers.

If we compare the best raid of a "pocket battleship" with the best raid of an auxiliary cruiser, it turns out that Admiral Scheer recorded 113,1 registered tons of intercepted tonnage, and Atlantis - 145,7 registered tons. But Scheer's voyage took only 161 days, that is, less than half a year, while Atlantis pirated for as many as 655 days, that is, almost 2 years. An auxiliary cruiser intercepted an average of 36,4 thousand GRT in six months, while Scheer intercepted 113,1 thousand GRT in just under six months, that is, more than three times more.

That's all true, but there's a nuance. Admiral Scheer intercepted convoy HX-84 on just the ninth day of its voyage and in one day, November 5, 1940, destroyed 6 ships and an auxiliary cruiser of the British with a total capacity of 58 registered tons (I also counted the transport Mopan, which was not in the convoy, but was also destroyed that day). Then it moved on to intercepting single ships and caught them with a total capacity of 273 registered tons in 5 months. It turns out that when Admiral Scheer was not destroying convoys, its effectiveness was little different from that of Atlantis - the former sank an average of 54 thousand registered tons per month, and the latter - 861 thousand registered tons.


If we take the second most successful auxiliary cruiser of Germany, the Kormoran, then in 10,5 months of its campaign it managed to intercept ships with a total tonnage of 136 thousand registered tons, and another 4 ships with a tonnage of 18 thousand registered tons were blown up by the mines it had laid. But even ignoring the mines, we get almost 13 thousand registered tons of destroyed tonnage per month, which is already noticeably higher than the results of the Admiral Scheer.

"Admiral Graf Spee" in its only combat mission, during which it hunted for transports for 2,5 months, destroyed 9 ships with a tonnage of just over 50 thousand registered tons. This gives a very significant average monthly "catch" of 20 registered tons, but it must be taken into account that the raid began at the very beginning of the war, which is why the British simply did not have time to take the necessary measures. But when they did take them, "Admiral Graf Spee" was in trouble. Again, it can and should be said that Langsdorff could have won the battle at La Plata if he had acted more aggressively, but still, most likely, after such a battle he would have had no chance to return to his native land.

In general, it can be stated that in solving the problem of intercepting single transports, in terms of its "average monthly" effectiveness, an auxiliary cruiser is quite capable of competing with a specially built ship. But at the same time, an auxiliary cruiser costs several times less than such a cruiser.

For example, a "pocket battleship" cost on average something like 85 million RM, while the magnificent liner "Wilhelm Gustloff", being almost four times larger than a "pocket battleship", only 25 million RM. An ordinary merchant ship, which the Germans used as auxiliary cruisers, was obviously much smaller, even taking into account the cost of refitting and armament. What can we say about submarines? The most numerous submarines of the Kriegsmarine (Type VII) cost around 4,2 million RM each.

Of course, one can say that German warships were excessively expensive, and the "Washington" cruiser could have been much cheaper. But even if we take the British "County" instead of the "pocket battleship", which at the exchange rate of those years cost about half of the "Deutschland" type ship, then using a cruiser to catch loners still looks unjustifiably expensive.

Final World


Of course, cruisers of the Second World War could be engaged in the destruction of single enemy merchant ships. But according to the criterion of "cost/effectiveness" such use of them looks completely unjustified. This task was solved by auxiliary cruisers and submarines at much lower costs; there was no need to build cruisers for such a hunt.

Accordingly, the only role left for cruisers in the fight on communications was the destruction of enemy convoys. This use of cruisers seems entirely justified, since:

1. An escort, necessary and sufficient against submarine attacks, will not be able to repel cruiser attacks. Consequently, the enemy will have to significantly increase the cover of convoys. But even England, with its huge number of cruisers, could not provide cruiser escort for all its convoys. Consequently, a certain number of convoys, having received acceptable protection from submarines, will not be able to resist cruisers.

2. The value of a transport vessel is relatively small, but the cargo it carries can be very expensive. The probability that a ship in a convoy is carrying something valuable is higher than that of the next ship alone, because a convoy provides better protection and it is obvious that important cargo will be sent in convoys (there were exceptions, of course). The potentially higher value of the "prize" to some extent justifies the risks of using an expensive warship, such as a cruiser, in the operation.

3. The appearance of heavy warships on communications and even the danger of such appearance will necessitate the use of much more powerful forces to counter such a threat. Accordingly, these forces will not be able to be used anywhere else.

The importance of the third point may not be obvious, but let us look at the history of the naval war of 1939-45. The small number of German battleships and heavy cruisers so hampered the Royal Navy that it was unable to provide the modern ships that Admiral E. B. Cunningham desperately needed for its Mediterranean Fleet. In effect, the Kriegsmarine created the necessary conditions for the Axis victory at sea in the Mediterranean. That the Italian fleet failed to take advantage of its opportunity does not mean that it was not given one.

But the defeat of the Royal Navy in this region would have led to the death of the British army in Africa and put an end to Churchill's entire Mediterranean strategy. Which, in turn, could have put an end to Churchill himself as Prime Minister, with very unpredictable consequences, including England's withdrawal from the war. In addition, England, waging the Battle of the Atlantic and forced to take into account the risks of the appearance of heavy raiders, was unable to seriously support the United States in their struggle in the Pacific. And there, before the Battle of Midway, the Japanese had an overall superiority in forces and held the strategic initiative. But even after it, the situation was in an unstable equilibrium, so the help of the Royal Navy would have been very useful.

So, the creation of cruisers aimed at operations against convoys seems in theory quite expedient. But could they effectively solve such a task?

To be continued ...

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  1. +6
    3 March 2025 04: 51
    ...the impact of strike aviation on sea and ocean communications was very limited. Here the relatively short combat radius of the strike aircraft of tactical aviation of those years made itself felt (strategic bombers had a long range, but low effectiveness in naval warfare)...
    Well, how can I say it? The Americans successfully used it strategic aviation in sea war against Japan in its final stages. And, what is characteristic, not even for attacks on ships or bombing of ports, but for aerial mining main shipping routes.

    In the last six months of the Pacific War, more Japanese ships were lost to American aerial mines than to attacks by American submarines, surface ships and aircraft. put together.

    But this is no longer just a fight on communications, but a full-fledged blockade and offensive mining on a strategic scale: it is in this form that the fight against the enemy’s transport/commercial shipping is conducted by the one who has supremacy at sea and in the air in a given theater of military operations.
    1. +5
      3 March 2025 08: 17
      Quote: Pushkowed
      Well, how can I say it? The Americans successfully used strategic aviation in the naval war against Japan at its final stage.

      Yes. But the conditions were too specific - the aircraft of the sons of Yamato stood nailed to the runways due to the lack of fuel and trained pilots. Therefore, one should not take the exception as the rule.
  2. +3
    3 March 2025 05: 19
    The small number of German battleships and heavy cruisers tied the hands of the Royal Navy so much

    A rather weak thesis. The Royal Navy was more than sufficient to solve the problems. And it is doubtful that Raeder was given the task of "tying hands" and not ensuring a 100% blockade of the islands.
    "Admiral Scheer" certainly made things a bit tough for the British, but they quickly eliminated its presence in the Atlantic. In 1940-1941, the Germans lacked submarines, not cruisers, because the former were very effective, since at that time the British had not yet created a powerful convoy defense system in the form of escort aircraft carriers, reconnaissance aircraft with radar, etc. And when the British + the US turned the tide of the "submarine war", the German cruisers could not help "Doenitz's sharks".
    failed to provide its Mediterranean fleet with the modern ships that Admiral E. B. Cunningham desperately needed. In fact, the Kriegsmarine had created the necessary conditions for the Axis victory at sea in the Mediterranean. The fact that the Italian fleet failed to take advantage of the opportunity it had been given does not mean that it was not given one.
    Victory in the Middle-earth could have been ensured by control over the Strait of Gibraltar, something that Hitler did not take care of, having an "ally" in the person of Franco.
    1. +6
      3 March 2025 08: 23
      Quote: Puncher
      The Royal Navy was more than capable of handling the task.

      There was not enough at all. That's why the ABC sat without a single new battleship against three new Italian ones. That's why the British could not oppose anything to the Japanese in the Indian Ocean (Operation C).
      1. +1
        8 March 2025 22: 37
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That is why the ABC sat without a single new battleship against three new Italian ones.

        If he had been less creative. Without the circus trick at Taranto. The Italians could have finished him off. It would have been enough to take Malta.
        1. +2
          9 March 2025 06: 49
          Quote: clou
          If he were less creative. Without Taranto's circus trick. The Italians could have finished him off.

          That's right, that's why the English consider ABC to be second only to Nelson.
    2. -2
      3 March 2025 11: 24
      I was especially amused by the calculation with the PQ-17 convoy. As it turns out, everything is easy and simple))) we subtract, divide, multiply))) and Tovey, Hamilton and the rest are just stupid gals)))
    3. +5
      3 March 2025 18: 12
      Quote: Puncher
      Victory in the Middle-earth could have been ensured by control over the Strait of Gibraltar, something that Hitler did not take care of, having an "ally" in the person of Franco.

      The problem is that Franco did not want to become Hitler's ally. Not at all.
      The reason is well known: Spanish agriculture, destroyed by the civil war, could not provide the population with its own products. The country was saved by an American commodity credit for grain. Supplies under which, naturally, would have ceased if Spain had joined the Axis.
      The first thing Franco asked during the negotiations with the Germans was whether the Reich would be able to replace America in food supplies. The answer was: we don't have enough ourselves (the grain balance of the Reich in 1941 was reduced to zero only under the condition of exporting the harvest from the occupied territories of the USSR). There is nothing to say about the other positions: the reduction of meat rations even made it into Halder's diaries.
      As a result, the caudillo technically dragged out the negotiations, putting forward increasingly unrealistic conditions for his participation in the war (if I remember correctly, he demanded French colonies in Africa). And then, to soften the pill, he sent the "Blue Division" to help the Wehrmacht, to which he swam all his radicals who considered him insufficiently far-right and "rocked the boat." And thus killed two birds with one stone: he lowered the degree of hatred in the country split by the war and improved relations with the Reich.
      1. +1
        4 March 2025 04: 25
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The problem is that Franco did not want to become Hitler's ally. Not at all.

        Who prevented Hitler from solving this problem radically? What prevented him from sending troops and removing/moving Franco? Hitler's problem was that, having become an international criminal, he continued to believe that he was sowing "reasonable, kind, eternal." He had a huge resource in his hands that he could have united and taken under control, but instead he played democracy. No, of course, later he seized power in Italy, Hungary, France, but it was too late.
        1. +1
          4 March 2025 10: 47
          Quote: Puncher
          Who prevented Hitler from solving this problem radically? What prevented him from sending in troops and removing/moving Franco?

          This does not solve the objective problem of lack of food. Bullets and bayonets are a poor substitute for grain. The Reich physically does not have grain to supply Spain. And the country is still full of weapons, and the center does not control some regions. Hunger riots begin, attacks on rear columns and warehouses, help for the rebels from Britain... in short, Spain again during Napoleon's times or Yugoslavia No. 2.
        2. +1
          24 March 2025 12: 42
          Quote: Puncher
          Hitler's problem was that, having become an international criminal, he continued to believe that he was sowing "reasonable, kind, eternal." He had a huge resource in his hands that he could have united and taken under control, but instead he played democracy. No, of course, later he seized power in Italy, Hungary, France, but it was too late.

          No. His problem (and the problem of the Soviet Union too) is that Hitler got involved in the USSR.
          Otherwise, maybe it would still be sitting somewhere there in Berlin (at least in the form of monuments).
          And the Reich would continue to spit at Albion across a puddle.

          So what, he wanted grain? The USSR would have given him as much grain as he needed for the machines.
          Territories? Well, go ahead and populate France...
    4. +1
      3 March 2025 18: 35
      Quote: Puncher
      And when the British and the US turned the tide of the "submarine war", the German cruisers could do nothing to help "Doenitz's sharks".

      Not that the Germans were fools at all: after the US entered the war, planning for operations of large surface ships in the Atlantic ceased.
      There were options such as "hit-hit" in the North during the polar night, with ships going to the Iceland region, but things did not go beyond plans.
      There is a myth about Operation Aurora: supposedly, after completing the attack on convoy JW-51B, Lutzow was supposed to make a dash to the Faroe-Iceland Gap, but there are no mentions of such an operation in German documents.
  3. +3
    3 March 2025 05: 21
    P.S .:
    After all, the defeat of the Royal Navy in this region led to the death of the British army in Africa and put a big end to Churchill’s entire Mediterranean strategy.

    It was enough to capture Malta, thereby protecting the supply routes to Africa from Italy.
    1. +2
      3 March 2025 09: 07
      Yeah... And it was also necessary to hold on to it, Malta... And send part of the supplies there, and not to Africa.
      1. +1
        3 March 2025 11: 11
        Quote: Grencer81
        And it was also necessary to hold on to it, Malta...

        And what would threaten her? Crete was closer to the English than Malta.
        1. 0
          3 March 2025 11: 15
          Well, zer gut! The Germans and Italians took Malta, in Berlin and Rome the ladies are throwing their caps in the air, and the admirals are scratching their heads about how to supply it.
          Because the RN hasn't gone anywhere. And in addition to protecting communications to Africa, we need to protect communications to Malta. Is that a good prospect?
          1. +2
            3 March 2025 11: 47
            You can "spit" from Sicily to Malta. And the British did not have the resources to conduct landing operations at such a distance. Maybe you are confusing it with Crete?
            1. +3
              3 March 2025 14: 15
              The Germans and Italians did not have the resources. And Hitler ordered Crete to be captured because the British could attack Ploiesti from Crete.
              1. 0
                4 March 2025 04: 18
                Quote: Grencer81
                The Germans and Italians didn't have the resources

                They had enough resources, but they were in no hurry to mobilize them, but who is to blame except themselves?
                1. 0
                  4 March 2025 07: 51
                  Yeah, all the memoirs and documents of German and Italian admirals are filled with tears about the lack of this and that, and then it turns out that there was enough of everything...
                  1. 0
                    4 March 2025 08: 07
                    Quote: Grencer81
                    Yeah, all the memoirs and documents of German and Italian admirals are filled with tears about the lack of this and that, and then it turns out that there was enough of everything...

                    Let me remind you of the reason, because the British air force was sinking convoys...
                    1. 0
                      4 March 2025 11: 35
                      Did you drown in Italy itself?
                      1. 0
                        5 March 2025 10: 04
                        Quote: Grencer81
                        Did you drown in Italy itself?

                        On the way from Sicily to Tunisia
                      2. 0
                        6 March 2025 03: 36
                        And I'm talking about Italy itself. Both F. Ruge and M.-A. Bragadin write on almost every page about the shortage of everything in the bases, especially fuel.
                        But it would be interesting to see how they would land troops...
                      3. 0
                        6 March 2025 11: 36
                        Quote: Grencer81
                        Isn't it true that on every page they write about the lack of everything in the databases, especially fuel.

                        Well, it's clear that oil doesn't grow on olive fields. But who prevented them in 1940, having united with Germany, from landing in "allied" Syria and moving on to Tehran? After the defeat of France, naturally. Who would have stopped them? The French, whose families in France were dependent on the mercy of the winner?
                        Quote: Grencer81
                        But it would be interesting to see how they would land troops...

                        It would have been bloody, but the British had no chance because there were very few forces in Malta.
                      4. 0
                        6 March 2025 16: 02
                        The British had few forces, but not a single Wehrmacht paratrooper reached Crete by sea. And the airborne landing was only able to gain a foothold due to the confusion and stupidity of the British command.
                        And Malta is not Crete.
          2. +3
            3 March 2025 18: 16
            Quote: Grencer81
            Because the RN hasn't gone anywhere. And in addition to protecting communications to Africa, we need to protect communications to Malta. Is that a good prospect?

            Thus, the capture of Malta would have removed the issue of protecting communications to Africa: it would have been possible to shorten the CON route and provide ships with cover from Malta.
            What is the problem with covering Italian CONs in Africa or Italy if there are no more British ships and aircraft in Malta? And the RN will have to send forces to work on CONs from Gibraltar and Alexandria.
            1. -2
              4 March 2025 07: 46
              The problem was that there was nothing to capture with... and even less to hold on to.
              1. +2
                4 March 2025 10: 53
                Quote: Grencer81
                The problem was that there was nothing to capture with... and even less to hold on to.

                Yeah... and I'll even tell you - why nothing. Because one adventurer convinced Berlin that it would be better to give him the forces assigned to capture Malta - and he would get to Suez with them. As usual, he neglected the supply issues - and as a result, the Germans neither took Malta nor reached Suez.
                Just for example, here is what Malta meant in terms of extending the route of the Italian CONs:

                The capture of Malta effectively opens up free shipping to Tripoli.
                1. 0
                  4 March 2025 15: 57
                  And what would a landing on Malta look like?
          3. 0
            3 March 2025 22: 24
            Quote: Grencer81
            And in addition to protecting communications to Africa, we need to protect communications to Malta. Is this a good prospect?

            After its capture, Malta could have been used to deploy aircraft that would search for submarines and, if the British fleet appeared, would have bombed it. All of the Germans' problems with supplying the African Corps were in Malta, from where British aircraft were disrupting sea transport from Italy to Africa. At the end of 1941 and the beginning of 1942, the Germans abandoned the idea of ​​an airborne assault on Malta, since they needed transport aircraft first to supply the tank wedges with fuel and then to supply the encircled group at Kholm. The dilemma was to capture Malta, using up the fighter and bomber forces there, or to break the Russians' forces and seize the Caucasian oil.
            1. 0
              4 March 2025 07: 48
              The RN suffered its greatest losses of ships from Ju-87 dive bombers, but there was nothing to capture and hold Malta with.
    2. +6
      3 March 2025 10: 24
      Quote: Puncher
      It was enough to capture Malta, thereby protecting the supply routes to Africa from Italy.

      The Germans were quite capable of taking both Malta and Gibraltar, as well as later subjugating all of North Africa and the Middle East, but... as always, politics begins and continues to play a dominant position in war, sometimes resorting to completely illogical actions in military and economic terms... Either Hitler really counted on an "alliance" with the British gentlemen in the future, or he was "tightly kept on a leash" by the financial curators of the whole world, we are unlikely to know, but the Germans fought the British in a very "peculiar" way.

      To Article:
      So, the creation of cruisers aimed at actions against convoys seems, in theory, quite expedient.

      In theory, yes, but in practice it still seems obvious at first glance - victory at sea belongs to a large fleet. If German cruisers with wolf packs had sunk several more large Allied convoys, it would not have changed anything in strategic terms. Against dozens of strike and hundreds of escort aircraft carriers, against dozens of heavy cruisers and thousands of transports of the US Navy, any German efforts looked like a "storm in a teacup"...
      It's a completely different matter when a powerful battle fleet is supplemented by raiders on the enemy's communications. But this is not about the Kriegsmarine.
      1. +4
        3 March 2025 10: 46
        Quote: Doccor18
        In theory, yes, but in practice, it still becomes obvious at first glance - victory at sea belongs to a large fleet.

        Of course. Which doesn't change the need for a weaker power to fight if it manages to force its opponent to spend more than it spends itself. The Kriegsmarine is a good example of this. Yes, the Allies won - but the price was very high
        1. +3
          3 March 2025 11: 18
          The price was no higher than victory... A bad convoy is better than no convoy. This principle proved to be effective as in the 18th and 19th centuries.
        2. +5
          3 March 2025 12: 12
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Which does not eliminate the need to fight the weaker power

          Certainly.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          if she manages to force the opponent to spend more than she spends herself

          And here it seems that 1. the complete defeat of the encircled Anglo-French group, pressed to the shore of the English Channel 2. continuation of the air war with Britain and victory in it, with the conquest of complete air supremacy 3. turning the Mediterranean Sea into a "German-Italian Sea" 4. the capture of the oil fields of the Middle East with subsequent access to India - all this almost brought the British Empire to its knees, even with its much more powerful fleet. The Germans could have used their strengths, but did not, trying to fight with the same Britain in the seas, exactly where the enemy was many times stronger ...
          1. +3
            3 March 2025 14: 02
            Quote: Doccor18
            And here it seems that 1. the complete defeat of the encircled Anglo-French group, pressed to the shore of the English Channel
            The fact that Hitler stopped the offensive for three days, thanks to which the British safely escaped to their island, caused bewilderment even to Halder, in his "War Diary". The transfer of bombing strikes from industrial sites (when Britain was again on the verge of collapse) to cities, also a strange decision of Goering, which without Hitler he would hardly have made. The Anglophile Hitler, it seems, did not intend to defeat Britain, and the entire "Sea Lion" operation was nothing more than a screen for the main task of the anti-USSR created from defeated Germany, the war with the Soviet Union.
            1. +2
              3 March 2025 15: 09
              Quote: Per se.
              Anglophile Hitler

              Yes, nothing else comes to mind...
            2. +2
              3 March 2025 18: 22
              Quote: Per se.
              The fact that Hitler stopped the offensive for three days, thanks to which the British safely escaped to their island, caused bewilderment even to Halder, in his "War Diary".

              He-he-he... Halder is simply habitually shifting the blame - out of corporate solidarity. One German general can't blame another if he can blame everything on a "stupid corporal". smile
              The "stop order" was issued by von Rundstedt. And Hitler only countersigned it the following day, persuaded by the same von Rundstedt. For the commander of Army Group "A" was too impressed by the British counterattack at Arras and decided not to take any risks.
              1. 0
                4 March 2025 06: 05
                Alexey, in any case, the final word was Hitler’s; if he had been against it, no one would have disobeyed, and the Fuhrer knew how to insist.
                1. +2
                  4 March 2025 10: 56
                  Quote: Per se.
                  Alexey, in any case, the final word was Hitler's.

                  And Hitler relied on the opinion of the old experienced military specialist von Rundstedt, who convinced the Fuhrer of the correctness of his actions to stop the offensive. smile
          2. 0
            3 March 2025 14: 10
            1. But we still need to defeat them, that is, throw tanks and infantry into battle...
            2. And why was it decided that there would be a victory in the air with the conquest of complete dominance?
            3. But it still needs to be transformed...
            4. They tried... When Ali Rashid rebelled...
            Deflated...
            1. +2
              3 March 2025 15: 21
              Quote: Grencer81
              1. But we still need to defeat them, that is, throw tanks and infantry into battle...

              The enemy's condition at that time was, if close to panic, then certainly depressing... Defeat seemed inevitable and was inevitable, but... Hitler decided otherwise, and the British were saved.
              Quote: Grencer81
              Why was it decided that there would be a victory in the air with the conquest of complete dominance?

              By the autumn of 40, British fighter aviation was on the brink... Just a little more and they would have broken down, but... history again gave the British a respite.
              Quote: Grencer81
              But it still needs to be transformed...

              There was nothing fundamentally impossible to achieve in military terms; all that was needed was political will...
              Quote: Grencer81
              They tried... When Ali Rashid rebelled...

              Rommel also "tried" in North Africa...
              Trying and implementing a consistent strategy with all your might and means are not the same thing...
              1. +2
                3 March 2025 15: 35
                Quote: Doccor18
                The enemy's condition at that time was, if close to panic, then certainly depressing...

                Only the Germans didn’t know this.
                They could have crushed the British with their TDs, yes, but they risked wearing out their tank forces, and in front of them stood half the French army, which had finally begun to dig its heels into the ground. And then there was Goering with his awesome air force, yelling that he would be able to prevent the evacuation. In general, it is easy for us to reason now (well, where else could the Germans have attacked if not at Sedan!), but back then... everything was not so clear-cut.
                1. +2
                  3 March 2025 18: 24
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  They could have crushed the British with their TDs, yes, but they risked wearing out their tank forces, and in front of them stood half the French army, which had finally begun to dig its heels into the ground.

                  This is not to mention the fact that the commander of Army Group "A" was in favor of suspending the offensive. He, in fact, gave the order for this suspension, which was later countersigned by the Fuhrer.
              2. 0
                3 March 2025 16: 23
                By the autumn of 1940, the Luftwaffe was not in the best condition either. And so they switched to night raids on England.
                The situation may have been depressing, but Hitler refused to throw tanks and infantry at them. And one of the reasons was the RN.
                Political will in war is strong when there are large battalions behind it.
                These forces and resources still had to be delivered. But Malta was in the way.
                But the occupation of Malta created a problem with its supplies.
  4. +2
    3 March 2025 05: 28
    In essence, Germany had no navy. It had a rather useless set of ships. So they had to use what was at hand. With mixed results, to put it mildly.
    1. -1
      3 March 2025 06: 38
      Quote: Lester7777
      And there was a rather useless set of ships
      But if instead of collecting this armored junk the Germans had built submarines, the Battle of the Atlantic would have had completely different consequences. wink
      1. + 12
        3 March 2025 08: 24
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        But what if instead of building this armored junk, the Germans built submarines?

        The British, seeing the strengthening of Germany's submarine fleet, would have built slightly fewer large ships, but many more anti-submarine ships, which would have left the final result the same.
        1. 0
          3 March 2025 10: 43
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The British, seeing the strengthening of Germany's submarine fleet, would have built slightly fewer large ships, but many more anti-submarine ones.
          The British were captivated by the "Mahan Doctrine", which stated that only armored ships with large-caliber artillery could achieve superiority at sea. They only laughed at submarines, considering them a weapon of the poor, which with the invention of sonar was finally defeated back in WWI.
          1. +3
            3 March 2025 10: 54
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            They only laughed at submarines, considering them to be a weapon of the poor.

            Sorry, but the alternative history is on another site. In our reality, England completely banned the Germans from building submarines after WWI, and the 1935 agreements provided for the creation of submarines with a tonnage of no more than 35% of the British. The British did not bet on their submarines, so the size allowed to the Germans was extremely small.
            1. +2
              3 March 2025 11: 03
              The 1935 agreements provided for the creation of submarines with a tonnage of no more than 35% of the British
              I will continue. But if the Germans suddenly want to increase their tonnage, they should simply inform the British about it. This is not an alternative history. And to be convinced of this, it is enough to look at the table of the tonnage of the British merchant fleet lost by German boats in the first years of the war. Let me remind you that of the 56 boats the Germans had, only 12-20 were on combat duty, which forced the British to urgently build their own anti-submarine ships and turn to the Americans for help.
              1. +3
                3 March 2025 11: 14
                Quote: Dutchman Michel
                But if the Germans suddenly wish to increase their tonnage, they simply have to inform the British about it.

                True. In your opinion, a sharp increase in submarine construction would not have caused any British reaction?:))
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 11: 20
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In your opinion, a sharp increase in submarine construction would not have caused any British reaction?:))
                  I'm sure it wouldn't have. There was a lot of hope for sonar. The USSR had over 100 submarines before the war and there was no reaction. Why? They relied on sonar, and therefore treated submarines like feces lying on a garbage heap.
                  1. +3
                    3 March 2025 11: 53
                    Quote: Dutchman Michel
                    I'm sure it wouldn't have.

                    Very good. Can you provide sources for your confidence? Some documents, statements in memoirs, something else?
                    The Germans were allowed to build up to 45% of Britain's submarine tonnage, and up to 100% upon notification. Even in 1939, Britain had 58 submarines. This was not the number with which to win a submarine war, and as long as the Germans remained within the specified limits, the British had no reason to worry.
                    But if the Germans had gone further and started building submarines en masse, the reaction would have been completely different.
                  2. 0
                    3 March 2025 14: 41
                    Quote: Dutchman Michel
                    The USSR had more than 100 submarines before the war and there was no reaction.

                    Probably because it was considered almost impossible to travel from Kronstadt to the English Channel on a submarine and conduct combat operations there without a base.
            2. +3
              3 March 2025 14: 12
              You are mistaken. The Anglo-German Naval Treaty allowed the Germans to build submarines in a 1:1 ratio to the British submarine fleet.
              The tonnage was 35% of the British one for surface ships.
              1. 0
                3 March 2025 15: 36
                Quote: Grencer81
                You are mistaken. The Anglo-German Naval Treaty allowed the Germans to build submarines in a 1:1 ratio to the British submarine fleet.

                I'm wrong, but not like that. 45% and can be up to 100% with prior notice.
          2. +2
            3 March 2025 18: 32
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            The British were captivated by the "Mahan Doctrine," which stated that only armored ships with large-caliber artillery could achieve superiority at sea.

            This is probably why, even before the war, the RN began designing escort destroyers and other anti-submarine warfare fleets. smile
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            They only laughed at submarines, considering them to be a weapon of the poor, which was finally defeated with the invention of sonar back in WWI.

            The RN had over a hundred escort ships left over from the last war, plus a powerful "spike fleet" that would be mobilized in the event of war.
            In addition to the specially built ships, with the outbreak of war the Admiralty requisitioned from private owners about 1300 trawlers, 200 whaling ships and about 550 drifters.

            Nevertheless, the first series of 1939 Hunt-type EMEs was ordered in early 20. In the same year, 145 Flowers were ordered.
        2. 0
          4 March 2025 02: 40
          The main mistake of the British in the Battle of the Atlantic was that they did not bomb the German submarine bases on the coast of occupied France during their construction. And then they were stunned that the Germans had built such a real, capitally protected miracle of engineering and construction thought in such a short time.
      2. +4
        3 March 2025 09: 57
        Well, well, well. In response to 300 German submarines, the British do not increase the number of submarine ships. And putting depth charges and ASDIC on a launch is more difficult than building a battleship.
      3. +4
        3 March 2025 10: 28
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        If only the Germans had built submarines instead of this armored junk

        1175 of whom still haven't decided anything...
        1. 0
          3 March 2025 10: 45
          Quote: Doccor18
          1175 of whom still haven't decided anything...
          This was not enough against the backdrop of Britain's expanding shipbuilding program and American lend-lease. They would have had such a quantity at the very beginning of the war... wink
          1. +4
            3 March 2025 11: 16
            Quote: Dutchman Michel
            If only they had that amount at the very beginning of the war...

            But the main thing is that the British and Americans have everything as in reality, and the Germans - bam! And a thousand PL. Michel, this is the first mistake of the alternative - to plan a change in the armed forces in one of the states, but to think that other states will not react to this in any way
            1. -1
              3 March 2025 11: 25
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              rrrraz! And a thousand PL
              If it weren't for the wasted man-hours, tons of metal and tens of millions of marks on building stupid and useless battleships and cruisers, they would have had it "zzz and done" by 1939. Easy!
              1. +4
                3 March 2025 11: 56
                Quote: Dutchman Michel
                then they would have had this "razzz and done" by 1939. Easy!

                And the British would have hundreds of destroyers, Yu frigates and quite a few escort aircraft ready...
                But you're exaggerating. Tirpitz and Bismarck are about 91 submarines in cost, 6 heavy cruisers are another 129. Yes, ShiG, light cruisers, but still 1000 and not even close.
    2. +1
      3 March 2025 18: 45
      Quote: Lester7777
      In essence, Germany had no navy. It had a rather useless collection of ships.

      Taking into account the Anglo-German Agreement, the Germans were quite capable of building an "anti-French" fleet... In fact, they were doing what the British wanted them to do. When the French laid down the "Clemenceau", the British even allowed the Germans to build a third "Bismarck", despite the fact that the displacement quota was not enough.
      When the Germans decided to have a bite to eat with the British, Plan Z came into being... but no one got anywhere in time.
  5. 0
    3 March 2025 07: 26
    It is necessary to transfer the "layouts" of that time to the present. What can a cruiser-raider do in the ocean now? In those days there was a serious limitation - fuel. Now with a nuclear installation there is no such limitation.
    1. +4
      3 March 2025 07: 45
      At that time there was a serious limitation - fuel. Now with a nuclear power plant there is no such limitation.
      In those times As soon as the ship went out to sea, it was immediately lost there. In our times It is perfectly visible to ship radars, satellites and patrol aircraft. And it doesn't matter what kind of power plant it has on board...
    2. +4
      3 March 2025 09: 11
      Quote: fiberboard
      What can a cruiser-raider do in the ocean now?

      Above-water? Almost nothing. But underwater can do something:)
      1. 0
        3 March 2025 11: 44
        On many military sites, and on VO in particular, various types of "strategists", wise "like a snake" have long proven that "in modern realities" tanks will have no value (they will be instantly burned), artillery guns and mortars (they will be instantly destroyed), no one thought about the effectiveness of drones at all. And the results? Tanks, guns, mortars, planes and helicopters are fighting. So I think we need to somehow more thoughtfully approach our Navy. Only war can show whether powerful raiders are needed or not (God forbid, of course!). Everything else is "crafty wisdom". At least the Americans are not going to give up their powerful ships.
        1. +1
          3 March 2025 15: 39
          Quote: fiberboard
          At least the Americans are not going to give up their powerful ships.

          And using them as raiders is also possible.
          Quote: fiberboard
          Tanks, guns, mortars, planes and helicopters are fighting.

          Of course, they fight. But tanks have their own areas of application, no one sends them, say, to provide air defense for objects in the rear, for example. Surface ships also have their own areas, and in order not to try to perform functions that are not theirs, war experience is not necessary
    3. +5
      3 March 2025 10: 31
      Quote: fiberboard
      What can a cruiser-raider do in the ocean now?

      Against a strong naval power? About the same as 85 years ago - nothing.
    4. +5
      3 March 2025 13: 30
      But the means of detection as we have now (AEW aircraft, satellite constellations, underwater acoustic stations, satellite and radio communications on all civilian vessels with marking beacons) did not exist then.
      So it turns out that fuel limited the ships' capabilities in long-term raiding. But the ships could really "get lost" for the enemy in the ocean. And in those days, it was necessary to allocate separate air wings and ships (thereby removing them from potentially more important directions) only to search for raiders.

      The concept of raiders is interesting and promising for those years. But the Germans literally built FEW of them. And they built few of them because they made them EXCESSIVELY. Their main caliber was 280 mm. This is a large caliber, but for hunting and destroying convoys, guns of 200-230 mm caliber would have been enough. They would have had to fight either with convoy ships that had almost no weapons, or with escort ships, which mainly consisted of light cruisers and destroyers. The freed weight (by changing the guns to slightly lighter ones) could have been spent on additional fuel.

      And most importantly - organizational problems. During the battle for the Atlantic, the German fleet (to the happiness of all the allies, including us) did not even try to coordinate and combine the actions of surface raiders and the submarine fleet. There were no attempts to combine their work for greater efficiency. For example, when, upon discovering a large convoy, surface raiders make a quick night attack with the aim of destroying (or at least heavily damaging) the escort ships and maybe a couple of ships. And the submarine fleet then begins to systematically sink the convoy's merchant ships because the escort ships are thinning out.
  6. +1
    3 March 2025 07: 42
    An escort, necessary and sufficient against submarine attack, will not be able to repel attacks by a cruiser.

    New Year's fight?
    1. +7
      3 March 2025 08: 29
      Quote: Grossvater
      New Year's fight?

      In the New Year's battle, the Germans quite successfully wore out the closest convoy and reached the transports. So, it is the New Year's battle that confirms my thesis, and does not refute it. The Germans retreated when two British light cruisers appeared, and that is a completely different story... By the way, they could have not retreated - there were more than enough forces to defeat them.

      We can also recall the second battle in the Gulf of Sirte. But why?
      1. +2
        3 March 2025 09: 14
        The German and Italian sailors feared their leadership in Berlin and Rome more than the British fleet. Incidentally, this is somewhat similar to the Red Navy.
        1. +5
          3 March 2025 10: 16
          Quote: Grencer81
          The German and Italian sailors feared their leadership in Berlin and Rome more than they feared the British fleet.

          It's hard to argue with that:)))) Especially considering the orders that were given to the TKR for the New Year's battle. The only thing is that the German sailors did have the "Jutland syndrome", it's not that they were afraid of the English, they just felt doomed
          1. +1
            3 March 2025 14: 14
            In Russian it's called... Having your cake and eating it, and not losing your virginity...
        2. 0
          3 March 2025 19: 26
          Quote: Grencer81
          The German and Italian sailors feared their leadership in Berlin and Rome more than they feared the British fleet.

          The maneuvering of the "Lützow" in the New Year's battle cannot be explained by any fear of the leadership. To come up to the KON almost right up to it and, instead of opening fire, to begin maneuvering, to open fire at the moment when the contact became intermittent, to continue to nervously maneuver until the contact with the ships was broken, and then to jump out at the escort distraction group - this is simply a northern furry animal.
          1. 0
            4 March 2025 07: 55
            So, there was an obsession with the commander of the "Lutzow"?
      2. +1
        3 March 2025 18: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Germans retreated when two British light cruisers appeared, and that's a completely different story...

        Did they just take it and retreat?
        1. 0
          3 March 2025 19: 12
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          Did they just take it and retreat?

          I do not understand the question.
          1. +1
            3 March 2025 19: 20
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I do not understand the question.

            And what is incomprehensible?
            It seems to me that if "Hipper" had not had one echelon of the main propulsion plant in the line and the speed had not dropped to 15 knots, the shooting would have continued. Let me remind you that, having found himself under cover, he gave the order to turn TOWARDS the enemy, and not AWAY from him...
            1. 0
              3 March 2025 19: 29
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              It seems to me that if the Hipper had not had one echelon of power plants in service and the speed had not dropped to 15 knots, the shooting would have continued further.

              I seriously doubt it. Kummetz was tied hand and foot by orders, fighting an equal enemy was forbidden, Lutzow, as I understand it, was generally forbidden to engage in battle with an escort. And then suddenly - British cruisers on his head, and it is not clear which and how many. But the thing is that if he was caught by superior or equal forces, then he could not escape from them anyway, and if they were weaker, then there was no particular point in running.
              Therefore, the "golden hit" of "Hipper" should have been clearly ignored.
              1. +1
                3 March 2025 19: 30
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Therefore, the "golden hit" of "Hipper" should have been clearly ignored.

                I see... If the facts don't fit into the theory - so much the worse for the facts. ;)
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 19: 36
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  If the facts don't fit into the theory, so much the worse for the facts. ;)

                  The facts are that the Hipper, attacking the escort until Burnett's cruisers approached, albeit slowly but surely, unwound that same escort, and the British destroyers had little chance of holding out any longer. Which is what I was actually proving.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In the New Year's battle, the Germans quite successfully wore out the closest convoy and reached the transports. So, it is precisely the New Year's battle that confirms my thesis, and does not refute it.

                  And the events with the KRL of the English - that's another story. And, of course, I don't see at all how my opinion
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Therefore, the "golden hit" of "Hipper" should have been clearly ignored.

                  comes into conflict with the facts.
                  1. +1
                    3 March 2025 19: 43
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And the events with the British KRL - that's another story. And, of course, I don't see how my opinion contradicts the facts.

                    Now the discussion is going according to the principle "We play here, we don't play here, we wrap fish here"... :)
                    In my opinion, either the operation needs to be considered as a whole, or not considered at all, since the discussion turns into a discussion of a spherical horse in a vacuum.
                    1. 0
                      3 March 2025 19: 57
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      Now the discussion is going according to the principle "We play here, we don't play here, we wrap fish here"... :)

                      No. There is a statement in the article
                      An escort, necessary and sufficient against submarine attack, will not be able to repel attacks by a cruiser.

                      My opponent decided to challenge it, citing the New Year's fight. I explained why I considered myself right
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      The facts are that the Hipper, attacking the escort until Burnett's cruisers approached, albeit slowly but surely, unwound that same escort, and the British destroyers had little chance of holding out any longer. Which is what I was actually proving.

                      The cruise missiles are not included in the disputed postulate; they are not needed to defend the convoy from submarines. Consequently, I see no reason to consider them within the framework of the discussion.
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      In my opinion, either the operation needs to be considered as a whole, or not considered at all.

                      Well, as for me, the primary goal of the discussion, that is, the disputed thesis. If the refutation/confirmation of the thesis does not require an analysis of the operation as a whole, then such an analysis is not needed within the framework of the discussion. Maybe I am wrong, of course, but I point-blank fail to see how the ability of the heavy cruiser to deal with destroyers can be confirmed/refuted by the battle of the Hipper with the British cruiser
                      1. +1
                        3 March 2025 20: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Maybe I'm wrong, of course, but I just can't see how the ability of a heavy cruiser to deal with destroyers can be confirmed/refuted by Hipper's battle with a British cruiser.

                        As I see, you are tarring both the Atlantic and Northern convoys with the same brush.
                        For the Atlantic, your postulate is undoubtedly true: in those convoys there were very few caravans with heavy cover - only military convoys were well covered.
                        In the North, everything was somewhat different: the convoy had immediate protection and long-range, and sometimes even “ultra-long-range” cover forces.
                        But the tactics of using the "big pots" were unique - interception on the retreat, as was the case with the "Scharnhorst".
                      2. 0
                        4 March 2025 08: 44
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        As I see, you are tarring both the Atlantic and Northern convoys with the same brush.

                        Maxim, I would really like to ask you to quote where exactly I "cut the Atlantic and the North with the same brush". My thesis, I repeat, was
                        An escort, necessary and sufficient against submarine attack, will not be able to repel attacks by a cruiser.

                        How did you read it as "All convoys, in the North, in the Atlantic, and maybe in the Pacific Ocean were protected exclusively by escort against submarines"? These are slightly two different theses:))))
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        In the North, everything was somewhat different: the convoy had immediate protection and long-range, and sometimes even “ultra-long-range” cover forces.

                        That's all true. But let's note that the cover was often not very close. An example is the same New Year's battle, when the British cruisers entered the battle approximately 2 hours after direct escort and approximately 2,5 hours after the German ships were discovered.
                      3. 0
                        4 March 2025 17: 46
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        My thesis, I repeat, was

                        Yes, there was a thesis, but you missed the word "direct"...
                        In the Atlantic - no questions, there was only direct protection, as a rule, anti-submarine. The only exceptions were military (or very important) convoys, which could be covered by large warships up to and including the battleships and aircraft carriers.
                        In the Arctic, convoys were accompanied by three security groups: immediate escort (air defense/anti-submarine warfare), close cover (usually 2-3 cruisers from the 1st and/or 10th squadrons of the Home Fleet) and distant cover (the remaining ships of the Home Fleet).
                        If in the Atlantic the raider could with a high degree of probability only be confronted by a direct escort (we will leave military convoys out of the picture), then in the Arctic the Germans had to take into account all possible options... Actually, for this reason, before the "Regenbogen" the Germans spent a long time finding out where Barnett's cruisers were.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        How did you read it as "All convoys, in the North, in the Atlantic, and maybe in the Pacific Ocean were protected exclusively by escort against submarines"? These are slightly two different theses:))))

                        Just don't attribute your own fantasies to me... ;)))))))))

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But let us note that the cover was often not very close. An example is the same New Year's battle, when the British cruisers entered the battle approximately 2 hours after direct escort and approximately 2,5 hours after the discovery of the German ships.

                        Naturally, it happens. Barnett had to cover two convoys at the same time: the forward and the return...
                      4. 0
                        4 March 2025 18: 39
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Yes, there was a thesis, but you missed the word "direct"...

                        Maxim, you are scaring me. Let's read the thesis again
                        Escort, necessary and sufficient against submarine attack, will not be able to repel the cruiser's attacks.

                        What's the difference - immediate, close, distant? If the escort is sufficient to repel submarine attacks and no more - and be it immediate or indirect, it will not be able to repel heavy cruiser attacks (with more or less comparable crew training and readiness to fight). If the close or distant escort consists of more significant forces (light cruisers, heavy cruisers, battleships, aircraft carriers, etc.), then they have no relation to the disputed thesis. A LOCAL case is being examined where the escort has a composition
                        necessary and sufficient against submarine attack

                        If the escort is stronger, this is a different combat situation to which the disputed thesis does not apply.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Just don't attribute your own fantasies to me... ;)))))))))

                        I understand that you know much more about the fleet of this period than I do. But... try to understand what the opponent is saying. At least occasionally:)))))
                      5. 0
                        4 March 2025 19: 06
                        Andrey, are you by any chance a lawyer by education? ;)

                        In general, I heard you, but I will stick to my opinion. :)
                      6. 0
                        4 March 2025 19: 28
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Andrey, are you by any chance a lawyer by education? ;)

                        No, I am an economist. With a penchant for alt-history:))))))
                      7. +1
                        4 March 2025 19: 32
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No, I am an economist. With a penchant for alt-history:))))))

                        Then - oh... lol
                      8. 0
                        4 March 2025 19: 44
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Then - oh...

                        Yes, I am terrible at historical research. laughing
    2. 0
      3 March 2025 18: 56
      Quote: Grossvater
      New Year's fight?

      Very specific Arctic weather conditions allowed a competent commander to tie up the enemy's battlecruisers long enough for reinforcements to arrive. And a bit of luck.
  7. +2
    3 March 2025 07: 55
    The losses were still extremely high and were apparently comparable to the cost of a large battleship.

    Field Marshal Saltykov is credited with the phrase: "My soldiers don't eat money!"
    The Germans and Americans could have churned out tanks, aircraft and beacons quite quickly in 42, but they were unlikely to build a battleship.
    Direct monetary comparison is not always correct.
    However, I am just saying this as an old man's grumbling. wink.
    There is a difference in the effectiveness of different means of interrupting maritime communications.
    Auxiliary cruisers could only operate in godforsaken bear (probably correct - whale winked) corners of the ocean. To counter them, it is enough to have cruisers from the WWI era, or even destroyers, that are in the right place at the right time. Unless, of course, you can catch the woof.
    With submarines it is more complicated, but it was possible to quickly set up production of corvettes in trawler hulls.
    If the opposing side is able to launch a SUFFICIENT number of heavy artillery ships into the ocean, then, as they say: "There is no defense against a crowbar."
    A large cruiser, and especially a battleship, if the enemy cannot counter it with significantly superior forces, is capable of completely stopping shipping in the selected area.
    Let us imagine that the pickpocket construction program had been continued and that Spee had had the same partner in his battle.
    1. +3
      3 March 2025 08: 31
      Quote: Grossvater
      Auxiliary cruisers could only operate in the godforsaken bear (probably more correctly - whale) corners of the ocean.

      Where the Spee operated, an auxiliary cruiser could also operate.
      1. +1
        3 March 2025 19: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Where the Spee operated, an auxiliary cruiser could also operate.

        This is what hindsight is saying in you: "Spee" ended up where he did because diplomatic paths are tortuous and unclear... Everything could have ended peacefully.
        If you remember, even with the start of active operations they waited until September 25.
        1. 0
          3 March 2025 19: 14
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          This is what hindsight says in you:

          Of course. It speaks in me all the time:))))))
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          "Spee" ended up where he did because diplomatic paths are tortuous and unclear...

          And instead of it, there could well have been an auxiliary cruiser or more than one. And it could have been much further north, in the Atlantic, where it would be much easier for an auxiliary to hide.
          1. +2
            3 March 2025 19: 23
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And instead of it, there could well have been an auxiliary cruiser or more than one.

            I couldn't... In peacetime, no one will "gut" the merchant fleet.
            For the sake of interest, look at when the Germans began preparing auxiliary cruisers: only at the beginning of hostilities.
            1. +1
              4 March 2025 08: 33
              Maxim, we are talking about different things, unfortunately.
              You speak from the position of a historian, and for you the question is "Could there have been a German auxiliary cruiser, or several, in the place of the Spee?" The answer is obvious to you - no, it could not, because Germany did not have auxiliary cruisers at the time the Spee set out on its raid.
              I am looking for an answer to a completely different question: "Could auxiliary cruisers have achieved the same success as heavy cruisers in hunting for single merchant ships?" It is impossible to answer this question without considering alternative scenarios that did not happen in history. Therefore, my answer is as follows: "If Germany had had auxiliary cruisers at the beginning of WWII, it could have used them to hunt for single British ships with an efficiency close to that of "pocket battleships." At the same time, Germany could have created auxiliary cruisers either in the summer of 1939 or even earlier - neither hindsight nor aliens are needed for this. Yes, it did not create them for objective reasons. But it could have.
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              In peacetime, no one will "gut" the merchant fleet.

              But where this comes from - I don't understand at all. "Spee" did not gut the merchant fleet in peacetime. I am talking about the actions of auxiliary cruisers on the model of "Spee". From this it seems obvious that I do not plan any gutting in peacetime.
              1. +1
                4 March 2025 17: 51
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But where this comes from - I don't understand at all. "Spee" did not gut the merchant fleet in peacetime. I am talking about the actions of auxiliary cruisers on the model of "Spee". From this it seems obvious that I do not plan any gutting in peacetime.

                I mean Germany's own merchant fleet.
                The mobilization of merchant ships under the VKR requires the withdrawal of their cargo turnover.
                1. +1
                  4 March 2025 18: 41
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  The mobilization of merchant ships under the VKR requires the withdrawal of their cargo turnover.

                  And? Is it impossible? Is it some kind of historical predetermination? You know yourself that it is not. The Germans simply did not expect to fight against England, so they did not prepare with all their might for such a confrontation.
                  1. 0
                    4 March 2025 19: 08
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And? It's impossible? Is it some kind of historical predetermination? You know yourself that it is not.

                    We are starting to move towards an alternative... :)
                    1. +1
                      4 March 2025 19: 43
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      We are starting to move towards an alternative... :)

                      Of course. Because the question I am examining is not historical in itself, but alternative-historical. There is such a wonderful thing in economics - the concept of cost relevance. It sounds simple in words - when modeling the consequences of a particular decision, you should isolate only those incomes and expenses that change as a result of the decision you made. All the rest should be considered unchanged for the correctness of the calculation.
                      In reality, a huge number of people, even those with an economic education, are falling over because of this:))))))
                      So, in assessing whether a spherical auxiliary cruiser in a vacuum in Spee's place could have achieved a similar success, one must assess the possibilities arising from its performance characteristics and that's it. It doesn't matter where it came from, it has nothing to do with the question I'm looking for an answer to. The answer, by the way, is yes.
                      But if we ask the question not alternatively historically, but historically - could the German auxiliary forces in real history have achieved success instead of Spee - then the answer will be no, simply because of the absence of auxiliary forces at that moment in time.

                      Simply put, to the question of whether the T-72 can destroy a hundred cataphracts, I will answer - yes. Because the cataphracts have nothing to counter the T-72 with. And you will answer - no, because when there were cataphracts, there were no T-72s, and when the T-72 appeared, there were no cataphracts. We are both right, but I am considering the alt-historical version (they coincided in time), and you - the historical one (they did not coincide in time).
                      1. +1
                        4 March 2025 19: 48
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You should isolate only those incomes and expenses that change as a result of the decision you made.

                        ... and then draw up a risk map and off we go... wassat
                      2. +1
                        4 March 2025 20: 00
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        and rushed ...

                        Cataphracts, for the empire! laughing
    2. +2
      3 March 2025 10: 00
      And Harwood was still chasing the 2 pickpockets with 3 cruisers? Or were Renown and the arcroyal sitting it out?
  8. +3
    3 March 2025 07: 58
    in total, it turns out, 142 million Reichsmarks, even without taking into account the cost of 100 tons of other lost cargo and 000 sunken ships. The Tirpitz itself cost something around 22 million RM. Somehow it turns out that the construction of the gigantic battleship Tirpitz, which many lovers of naval history assess as nothing less than "money down the drain", essentially paid for itself by the destruction of a single convoy, forced to disperse under the threat of an attack by this ship.

    Plus three heavy cruisers, twelve destroyers. Well, eleven submarines and over 170 aircraft.
    1. +5
      3 March 2025 08: 33
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Plus three heavy cruisers, twelve destroyers.

      Which could not possibly have caused the order to “disperse the convoy!”, so there is no need to take them into account.
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Well, eleven submarines and over 170 aircraft

      Who would not have achieved such a result if the convoy had not dispersed
      1. +2
        3 March 2025 08: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Tlauicol
        Plus three heavy cruisers, twelve destroyers.

        Which could not possibly have caused the order to “disperse the convoy!”, so there is no need to take them into account.

        Why such confidence? The convoy dispersed even when one (1) cruiser appeared
        1. +2
          3 March 2025 09: 06
          Quote: Tlauicol
          The convoy dispersed when one (1) cruiser appeared.

          When did such a miracle happen?:))))) If you are talking about Scheer's encounter with the NH-84 and Hipper's encounter with the SLS-64, then let's not confuse "dispersed" and "ran away". When a heavy enemy ship goes out to sea and the convoy, not having sufficient cover to counter this threat, receives an order to proceed to ports separately, and this order is given even before contact with the enemy - this is "dispersed". But when a convoy without an escort is overtaken by a heavy ship and the ships go full speed in different directions to save at least someone, then this is "ran away".
          The same PQ-17 was sufficiently protected from attacks by heavy cruisers, so there was no reason to disperse or scatter.
          1. +1
            3 March 2025 09: 33
            Captain Edward Fegen 5.11.1940: "Convoy disperse!" Order duplicated with flags and flares.
            This is an order, Andrey, not "The convoy has scattered."
            1. +3
              3 March 2025 10: 23
              Quote: Tlauicol
              This is an order, Andrey, not "The convoy has scattered."

              Sorry, what exactly from what I wrote
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              When a heavy enemy ship goes out to sea and the convoy, not having sufficient cover to counter this threat, receives an order to proceed to ports separately, and this order is given even before contact with the enemy - this is "scattered". And when a convoy without an escort is overtaken by a heavy ship and the ships go full speed in different directions in order to save at least someone, then this is "scattered".

              You don't understand? What are you arguing with, exactly?
              Quote: Tlauicol
              Captain Edward Fegen 5.11.1940: "Convoy disperse!" Order duplicated with flags and flares.

              The order was given at the moment of the attack on the Scheer convoy, which the Jervis Bay had no hope of stopping. And which was in direct line of sight of the convoy ships. Figen (Feghen, I don't know the transcription) tried to buy time so that the merchant ships could run away.
              You don't see the difference with the "Convoy scatter" order that PQ-17 received when the Tirpitz first emerged from the fjord? Seriously? Do I need to explain the difference?
              1. +3
                3 March 2025 10: 38
                I wrote that the convoy dispersed even when one cruiser appeared. You asked: "And when did such a miracle happen?"
                I answered. The experience was
                But it was not worth waiting for a battleship, three cruisers and a dozen destroyers, under attacks from 11 submarines and 170 aircraft. That is why the order was given in advance. Especially since the 17th had already suffered losses
                1. +1
                  3 March 2025 10: 56
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  I wrote that the convoy dispersed even when one cruiser appeared. You asked: "And when did such a miracle happen?"

                  Wrong. I wrote
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  If you are talking about Scheer's meeting with the NH-84 and Hipper's meeting with the SLS-64, then let's not confuse "dispersed" and "ran away".

                  You continue, unfortunately.
                  I ask again - what do you want to prove? That just one sortie of a heavy cruiser on the model of Tirpitz could force the British to disperse the convoy before this heavy cruiser made contact with the convoy's transports? If not, then I don't understand what this conversation is all about.
                  1. +3
                    3 March 2025 12: 05
                    I pointed out that, in addition to Tirpitz, the squadron included three more heavy cruisers.
                    You wrote: which could not have caused the order: the convoy to disperse. Under no circumstances.
                    I gave an example: of course they could. Even one TKR.
                    You've come up with some kind of sophistry. And then you added a condition (contact)
                    1. +1
                      3 March 2025 14: 24
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      You wrote: which could not have caused the order: the convoy to disperse. Under no circumstances.
                      I gave an example: of course they could

                      Yes, they could. All three German TKRs needed to do this was:
                      1) Reach PQ-17;
                      2) Defeat in battle 4 heavy cruisers (two British and two American) and 9 destroyers (three at Hamilton and 6 from the immediate escort of the convoy) without sinking yourself
                      3) Get within line of sight of the PQ-17 transports
                      And then - yes, the convoy would have received the order to disperse. But not before. During the New Year's battle, even having 2 cruisers against 2 heavy cruisers, the British did not disperse the convoy.
                      Could the Germans really do this? Obviously not. That is why I am writing to you that the German heavy cruisers could not disperse the PQ-17. And the Tirpitz only moved slightly - and the convoy scattered.
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      You've come up with some kind of sophistry.

                      The feeling is mutual. So, persisting in the belief that this was a misunderstanding, I described the situation as simply as I could.
                      1. 0
                        3 March 2025 15: 06
                        Why all the complications? The 4 allied heavy cruisers were supposed to leave a day ago. With the appearance of the 3 German heavy cruisers, the convoy had every chance of receiving such an order. Even without the presence of Tirpitz,
                      2. 0
                        3 March 2025 18: 13
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        4 allied heavy cruisers were supposed to leave a day ago.

                        But they didn’t leave - Hamilton wasn’t planning on leaving on the 4th, only on the 5th, no later than 14.00:XNUMX p.m.
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        With the appearance of 3 German heavy cruisers, the convoy had every chance of receiving such an order.

                        Not a single one. Without Tirpitz, the British had comparable forces, why should they retreat? They did not retreat even in less acceptable conditions.
                      3. 0
                        3 March 2025 18: 39
                        Pfft, the Germans only went out to sea at three o'clock. The convoy would have had no escort. Neither according to plan nor not according to plan. Massacre of the Innocents
                      4. 0
                        3 March 2025 19: 20
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Pff, the Germans only went out to sea at three o'clock. The convoy would not have had any escort.

                        Well, yes. If you don't take into account that the cruisers' supposed departure on July 5 was dictated by the presence of the Tirpitz, without which they could not have left the convoy anywhere
                      5. 0
                        4 March 2025 04: 47
                        The cruisers weren't going to go to Murmansk anyway. Neither according to plan nor not according to plan
                      6. 0
                        4 March 2025 07: 37
                        Why go far? - pq16. The cruisers and half of the destroyers reached Medvezhyi and turned around. Without any Tirpitz.
                        So there would be no cruiser cover.
                      7. 0
                        4 March 2025 08: 21
                        One magic word - "Tirpitz". "That's why they don't fly" (c)
                      8. 0
                        4 March 2025 09: 39
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        One magic word - "Tirpitz". "That's why they don't fly" (c)

                        A cardboard tiger, nothing more. The presence of the Tirpitz did not prevent the cruisers from going to Murmansk if there was an order, or turning back at Medvezhye if there was no need.
                        Moreover, when Tirpitz was not yet in the north, the escorts acted in exactly the same way: the cruisers and some of the destroyers went home. Or went to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk. All this was planned in advance.
                      9. 0
                        4 March 2025 17: 54
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        Moreover, when Tirpitz was not yet in the north, the escorts acted in exactly the same way: the cruisers and some of the destroyers went home. Or went to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk. All this was planned in advance.

                        Not everything is so simple... Through voyages to Murmansk required the inclusion of squadron tankers in the convoy to refuel cruisers and destroyers.
                      10. 0
                        4 March 2025 18: 44
                        ? The 17th also included tankers-refuelers, but this did not mean that the cruisers would go further
                      11. 0
                        4 March 2025 19: 02
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        ? The 17th also included tankers-refuelers, but this did not mean that the cruisers would go further

                        The tankers of the 1st Cruiser Squadron remained west of the convoy's position, which is why Hamilton refueled the destroyers from the cruisers.
                        And he decided to turn around 12 hours earlier than he had planned for the same reason.
                        Those that were part of the convoy were supposed to refuel Broome's EG1.
                      12. 0
                        5 March 2025 05: 20
                        "Through voyages to Murmansk required the inclusion of squadron tankers in the convoy to refuel cruisers and destroyers."
                        This was the case both before Tirpitz and after its appearance in the north. Cruisers and tankers went to the USSR or turned around. Was it there or not.
                      13. 0
                        3 March 2025 19: 37
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But they didn’t leave - Hamilton wasn’t planning on leaving on the 4th, only on the 5th, no later than 14.00:XNUMX p.m.

                        On 5th July Hamilton wrote in the RDO at 15:20, but later (at 18:09) he informed Tovey that he would turn west no later than 22:00 on the 4th, having completed the refueling of the destroyers.
              2. 0
                3 March 2025 19: 15
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You don't see the difference with the "Convoy scatter" order that PQ-17 received when the Tirpitz first emerged from the fjord? Seriously? Do I need to explain the difference?

                Just in case, I'll repeat...
                The order to disband PQ-17 was given at 21:23 on 4 July.
                The Tirpitz weighed anchor at 10:55 on July 5....
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 20: 01
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  The order to disband PQ-17 was given at 21:23 on 4 July.
                  The Tirpitz weighed anchor at 10:55 on July 5....

                  The Admiralty had learned earlier that the Germans were concentrating for an exit in the Alta (en) Fjord. In fact, it had predicted the German exit quite accurately, the error being slightly less than 9 hours.
              3. 0
                3 March 2025 19: 26
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Figen (Fegen, I don't know the transcription)

                FidjEn.
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 19: 29
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  FidjEn.

                  Thank you very much, I will know!
      2. 0
        3 March 2025 09: 11
        The Admiralty had an order: in case of an attack by enemy surface ships, convoys were to be dispersed. But in the case of PQ-17, the Admiralty did not take into account that the convoy was not in the Atlantic, but in the Arctic, where ice prevented the convoy from dispersing.
        1. +2
          3 March 2025 09: 34
          Quote: Grencer81
          The Admiralty had an order: in the event of an attack by enemy surface ships, the convoys were to be dispersed.

          I'm afraid you are not interpreting this order quite correctly. More precisely, completely incorrectly. I can repeat once again what you yourself wrote - in case of attack. I will add - directly the convoy. Therefore, for example, during the New Year's battle the convoy did not disperse, even despite the fact that its escort was fighting with the German heavy cruisers
          1. 0
            3 March 2025 09: 56
            Therefore, for example, during the New Year's battle, the convoy did not disperse, even though its escort was fighting with the German heavy cruisers.

            During the New Year's battle, the balance of forces was completely different - the escort had cruisers, and the German cruisers, not knowing about it, split up (and initially the German squadron was much weaker than in the case of Tirpitz). The British simply did not know in advance about the composition of the German forces, plus the circumstances that had developed favorably for them.
            1. +1
              3 March 2025 10: 30
              Quote from solar
              The British simply did not know in advance the composition of the German forces.

              Hipper had been identified before Burnett intervened, so at least one TKR was known. And it's hard to believe that the British escort, fighting Lutzow, didn't tell anyone about it.
              However, the order to "disperse" was not given.
              1. +1
                3 March 2025 10: 42
                1. The New Year's battle took place after the story with PQ-17. 2. The Germans deliberately ensured that there was no order to disperse - according to the plan, Hipper was supposed to drive the convoy to Lützow.
                By this time, Sherbrooke had formed the opinion that Kummetz was avoiding combat. Instead of decisively closing in, the Hipper maneuvered, hiding behind smoke and snow charges. Nevertheless, in response to the German actions, the British did as the German plan had suggested: behind the smoke screen, the convoy began to move to the southeast, where the Lützow was already waiting.

                The English fell into a prepared trap, but only a miracle saved them.
                Meanwhile, the Lützow intercepted a convoy of cargo ships heading southeast, with the first of them being 3 miles from the raider, and the last one 7 miles. The Lützow fired 87 280 mm shells and 75 150 mm, but never got thereAfter this, the captain of the Lützow decided to return to base in Altafjord.
                1. +2
                  3 March 2025 10: 58
                  Quote from solar
                  The Germans deliberately ensured that there was no order to disperse - according to the plan, Hipper was supposed to drive the convoy to Lützow.

                  The Germans could have achieved anything, but the fact is that the British did not disperse the convoy, even when they realized that they were fighting a heavy cruiser with forces inferior to the Germans.
                  1. +2
                    3 March 2025 12: 17
                    They realized this only at the last stage, when the convoy was ambushed by Lutzow, and it was too late to give the order to disperse, they did not know this before. Before that, there was only Hipper and he demonstrated little activity. As a result, the British mistakenly did not give the convoy the order to disperse and fell into a prepared trap of the Germans, if Lutzow's commanders had spent more time on preparations, and not on the Frauleins and the Bavarian Dampfbier (just kidding, there were other reasons - bad weather, polar night), then the convoy would have been finished.
                    1. +1
                      3 March 2025 14: 29
                      Quote from solar
                      They realized this only at the last stage, when the convoy was ambushed by Lutzov, and it was too late to give the order to disperse.

                      It is not too late at all. It is NEVER too late if a convoy is threatened by a heavy enemy ship, because the sooner you start to scatter, the more ships will be saved. But the British limited themselves to setting up smoke screens, which, however, did not cover many of the convoy's ships from the "Lützow".
                      Quote from solar
                      if Lutzev's commanders had spent more time on preparations, and not on the Frauleins and Bavarian Dampfbier (just kidding, there were other reasons - bad weather, polar night)

                      The main reason is the lack of fuel and a significant reduction in combat training in Norway. Therefore, until the Germans went north, their heavy tanks hit the squirrel in the eye, but in the North it was completely different
                      1. 0
                        3 March 2025 15: 07
                        It is not too late at all. It is NEVER too late if a convoy is threatened by a heavy enemy ship, because the sooner you start to scatter, the more ships will be saved. But the British limited themselves to setting up smoke screens, which, however, did not cover many of the convoy's ships from the "Lützow".

                        The British had set them up even before meeting Lutzow. The situation was poorly understood by both the British and the Germans - polar night, poor visibility. The Germans did not know that the British had cruisers. The situation was so unclear that a couple of German destroyers tried to join the Allied cruisers, mistaking them for German. Hipper, having received his from the British cruisers, withdrew from the battle, Lutzow fired at random. Where could the British disperse in such conditions? And when the situation became more or less clear, the Germans had already withdrawn from the battle and were leaving.
                        The clash took place in the middle of a months-long polar night, and the German and British forces were scattered and unsure of the positions of their own or the enemy's forces. The battle became a confusing affair, and at times it was unclear who was shooting at whom or how many ships were involved.

                        The main reason is the lack of fuel and a significant reduction in combat training in Norway.

                        The fact remains that the German plan was to drive the convoy straight to Lützow without letting the situation get to the point where it would disperse. And it was a complete success, the British were trapped. This was also facilitated by the fact that the New Year's battle took place after PQ-17, and the British did not want to make decisions without understanding the situation, and not repeat the story of PQ-17.
                      2. 0
                        3 March 2025 18: 40
                        Quote from solar
                        The English had set them up even before the meeting with Lutzow

                        That's beside the point. When they met the Lutzows, the destroyers covered the convoy with a smoke screen.
                        Quote from solar
                        Hipper, having received his due from the English cruisers, left the battle, Lutzow fired at random. Where could the English disperse in such conditions?

                        Maybe that's enough already?:)))))))) The situation is painfully clear to the British. They are fighting an enemy heavy cruiser that is approaching the convoy. And then suddenly a second heavy cruiser drops onto their convoy and starts firing its main caliber. It is very difficult to understand what, in your opinion, could be incomprehensible to the British here:)))))
                        But the entry of the British cruise missiles into battle occurred a little later.
                        Quote from solar
                        The fact remains that the German plan was to drive the convoy straight to Lützow without allowing the situation to become dispersed.

                        And can you refer to sources confirming the existence of this plan?:))) Because, you know, the well-known German plan - to use one heavy tank destroyer to draw off the escort forces and thus ensure the attack of the 2nd heavy tank destroyer - is slightly different from the ideas you presented.
                      3. 0
                        3 March 2025 20: 00
                        Maybe that's enough already?:)))))))) The situation is painfully clear to the English.

                        This is what I am writing to you about.
                        They are fighting an enemy TCR that is approaching the convoy.

                        Now it approaches, now it moves away. It does not shoot at civilian ships. After the situation with PQ-17, the British are afraid that they will be accused of panicking.
                        And then suddenly a second heavy cruiser descends on their convoy and starts firing its main caliber.

                        They stumble upon it themselves - Hipper drove them in. But he never hit anyone.
                        But the entry of the British cruise missiles into battle occurred a little later.

                        The English knew they were there. The Germans did not.
                        the well-known German plan is to use one heavy cruiser to draw off the escort forces and thus ensure the attack of the 2nd heavy cruiser

                        That's right. Hipper's attack changed the direction of the convoy and led to it running into Lützow. Everything as the Germans had planned. But Hipper didn't attack the transports, so as not to scare them off prematurely. Hipper kept his distance, otherwise the convoy would have dispersed and Lützow would have been left with nothing.
                    2. 0
                      4 March 2025 16: 11
                      Quote from solar
                      If Lutzev's commanders had spent more time on preparations, and not on the Frauleins and Bavarian Dampfbier (just kidding, there were other reasons - bad weather, polar night), then the convoy would have been finished.

                      What do gunners have to do with it? The BR commander was dumb. I'll quote myself from 2021. smile
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Stange had problems with visibility and identification - even with 30 kbt he could not understand who was in front of him. And then he made a mistake that thwarted the entire operation: instead of getting close to unidentified targets personally or sending one of the three EMs of his group for additional reconnaissance, he decided to first get out of the strip of snow storms. This decision is all the more incomprehensible in light of the fact that Stange had received a radiogram from Kummetz an hour earlier that he was fighting with the security of KOH. That is, the risk of running into an "anti-ship" escort for his group was minimal, and the chance that the detected targets were the main goal of the operation - the convoy transports - was maximal.

                      This is what the Germans saw:
                      Several targets were spotted in the snow squalls. The nearest is 3 miles, the farthest is 7 miles. Identification is impossible.

                      It is completely impossible to determine the ownership of the ships due to poor lighting, smoke and fog on the horizon.
                      To eliminate the obstruction from the snow storms and smoke going south, I decided to walk at a low speed next to the convoy and get out of the snow storm strip. This would make it possible to attack the convoy as soon as visibility improves.

                      According to Pope, the Lutzow passed only two miles from the convoy and had already recovered to the point where it was 9 miles from the convoy. then opened fire.
                      1. 0
                        5 March 2025 01: 53
                        What do gunners have to do with it?

                        Of course, it was a joke about the commendators, I wrote it there.
                        The reason was bad weather conditions and unsuccessful actions of the cruiser commander. He was afraid to shoot at his own - there was a lot of confusion.
                      2. 0
                        5 March 2025 11: 40
                        Quote from solar
                        The reason was bad weather conditions and unsuccessful actions of the cruiser commander. He was afraid to shoot at his own - there was a lot of confusion.

                        On which of his own? An hour before reaching the KON, Stange received a radiogram from Kummetz that he was fighting with the guards. Since there was no fight, it was most likely the enemy.
                        In the end, Stange had 3 EM. Well, he could have sent one for additional reconnaissance of the targets - there were only 30 kbt there.
                      3. 0
                        5 March 2025 11: 44
                        There was such confusion there due to the weather conditions that it was impossible to clearly understand who was ours and who was not, who was where and where they were shooting. Two German destroyers, for example, mistakenly tried to join the English cruisers, mistaking them for their own, for which they paid. And the radars were very imperfect at that time.
                      4. 0
                        5 March 2025 11: 59
                        Quote from solar
                        There was such confusion there due to the weather conditions that it was impossible to really understand who was ours and who was a foe, who was where and where they were shooting.

                        True. And the tactics of naval units in SMU without radar are well known - send light forces for reconnaissance and target identification. And Stange had these forces.
                        This tactic must have been especially well known to the Germans, whose naval battlefield was initially the North Sea with its limited visibility. smile
                      5. 0
                        5 March 2025 12: 10
                        And the tactics of naval units in SMU without radar are well known - send light forces for reconnaissance and target identification.

                        I think that's what he should have done.
                        He did not perform optimally under those conditions.
                      6. 0
                        5 March 2025 19: 28
                        Quote from solar
                        He did not perform optimally under those conditions.

                        I'm telling you - Stange, with incredible efforts, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. smile
                      7. 0
                        6 March 2025 00: 15
                        Moreover, the Germans’ tactical plan of attack was well thought out and correct: to tie up the escort and at the same time not give the convoy a reason to disperse before meeting with Lützow.
            2. 0
              3 March 2025 19: 45
              Quote from solar
              During the New Year's battle the balance of power was completely different - the escort had cruisers

              Not quite so: Barnett was simply lucky to be in the right place at the right time to make it to the convoy... Otherwise it would not have been "New Year's Shame", but, for example, "New Year's Victory".
              1. -1
                3 March 2025 20: 04
                The fact that they were there, and the situation with the alignment of forces was fundamentally different from the case with Tirpitz's squadron. Moreover, the English did not know about Lutzow until the very moment he entered the battle. The whole "New Year's disgrace" is connected with the fact that Lutzow's commodores were unable to get anywhere. Otherwise, the convoy would have been completely destroyed, the English fell into a trap.
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 20: 07
                  Quote from solar
                  The whole "New Year's disgrace" is connected with the fact that Lutzev's commendators were unable to get anywhere.

                  According to Stange's report, most of the time the fire was conducted based on radar data in low visibility conditions. Given the quality of artillery radars in general and German ones in particular, this is not surprising.
                  1. 0
                    3 March 2025 20: 29
                    The whole discussion is about why the British didn't give the order for the convoy to disperse, unlike the situation with PQ-17?
                    In my opinion, because
                    1. The situation was very different. The balance of forces from the English point of view at that moment was noticeably different, especially since they did not know about Lützow until his attack. Hipper had already received his from the English cruisers at that moment. The English cruisers were there by coincidence, but they were there.
                    2. Hipper did not attack the transports and did not make any special attempts to attack them. In fact, the battle consisted of two parts - Hipper's battle with the escort and Lutzow's attempt to attack the transports. Well, the shooting of German destroyers by English cruisers can be singled out as a separate episode, which speaks to the extent of the confusion that reigned there.
                    3. The weather conditions were radically different from the situation with PQ-17. The polar night conditions and snow charges greatly complicated the Germans' actions. The British were paying attention to the difficulty of polar convoys in the summer due to the proximity of the German coast and other factors.
                  2. 0
                    4 March 2025 16: 16
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    According to Stange's report, most of the time the fire was conducted based on radar data in conditions of low visibility.

                    Because Stange did not fire at observed targets from 30 kbt or approach visually detected KON ships to improve firing conditions, but decided to get out of the squall.
                    To eliminate the obstruction from the snow storms and smoke going south, I decided to walk at a low speed next to the convoy and get out of the snow storm strip. This would make it possible to attack the convoy as soon as visibility improves.

                    As a result, the Panzerschiff maneuvered, maneuvered - and maneuvered as far as 90 kbt from the KON. And then, continuing to maneuver, it actually reached the "Hipper" group, which according to the plan was supposed to distract the destroyers from it.
          2. 0
            3 March 2025 09: 59
            By the New Year's battle, the head of the Admiralty had changed and conclusions had been drawn from the defeat of PQ-17. That is why the British behaved differently.
            Moreover, Pound believed, based on the information that came to him, that there was a real threat of an attack on the convoy not by a single ship, but by a squadron.
            And...Even kings can't always do everything...
            Even the RN was not capable of fighting a war in multiple theatres.
      3. 0
        3 March 2025 10: 24
        Which could not possibly have caused the order to “disperse the convoy!”, so there is no need to take them into account.

        Even one of them could be enough for such an order. As in the case of convoys WS-5A or HX-84.
        1. +2
          3 March 2025 10: 59
          Quote from solar
          As in the case of convoys WS-5A or HX-84.

          Well, there are no words. You argue for the sake of arguing, ignoring your opponent's arguments.
          1. +2
            3 March 2025 12: 46
            ignoring the opponent's arguments

            An argument that boils down to one completely atypical case, in which the Germans were trying to circumvent the British tactics of dispersing convoys in case of danger.
            A case that only proves the rule.
            1. 0
              3 March 2025 14: 32
              Quote from solar
              An argument that boils down to one completely atypical case

              It doesn't matter that both examples you gave
              Quote from solar
              WS-5A or HX-84.

              Not relevant to the topic under discussion? The convoys scattered not because German heavy cruisers went to sea. But because German heavy cruisers attacked the convoys.
              And yes, where is my example - unique and atypical? That when "Hipper" attacked the convoy under the cover of "Berwick" the Englishmen fled?
              1. 0
                3 March 2025 14: 47
                Not relevant to the topic under discussion? The convoys scattered not because German ships went to sea. But because they attacked the convoys.

                The convoys dispersed as soon as the Allies learned of the attack, before which they were unaware of the threat. In the case of Tirpitz, they learned of the attack plans in advance and the escort moved out to meet the expected attack of the German squadron.
                What, when the Hipper attacked the convoy under the cover of the Berwick, the British fled?

                Hipper did not attack civilian ships. You stubbornly refuse to take this into account
                By this time, Sherbrooke had formed the opinion that Kummetz was avoiding combat. Instead of decisively closing in, the Hipper maneuvered, hiding behind smoke and snow charges.

                Hipper's task was to distract the escort and carefully scare off the convoy, not allowing it to disperse and reach Lutzev. It was Lutzev who was tasked with destroying the convoy. Another thing is that Lutzev screwed up.
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 18: 49
                  Quote from solar
                  The convoys dispersed as soon as the Allies learned of the attack, having been unaware of the threat before that.

                  Really?:)))) And how many convoys dispersed when the "Spee" and "Deutschland" were at sea, given that the British knew about them? Why didn't the convoy attacked by Lutzow and Hipper disperse, given that the British knew for more than two hours that they were being attacked by at least one heavy cruiser? How did the convoy beaten by Hipper near the Azores on February 1 not disperse, given that the British knew about the presence of the ShiG at sea on February 12? Which convoys did the British disperse AFTER the attack on the convoy near the Azores, given that Hipper was still at sea?
                  In short, enough fantasies. Don't waste your and my time on them, you are not on alternative history
                  1. +1
                    4 March 2025 05: 12
                    And who could have given the order to convoy "SLS-64" to disperse? And to similar convoys? Did they have direct communication with the Admiralty? Or an escort ship?
                    And then: knowing that a raider is in the ocean is not a reason to disband the convoy. Three hours away, presumably - yes, that is a reason.
                    In general, we acted according to the circumstances, based on bitter experience and tasks.
                  2. 0
                    6 March 2025 00: 22
                    And how many convoys were dispersed when the Spee and Deutschland were at sea, given that the British knew about them?

                    The British believed that Tirpitz's squadron had not simply gone out to sea, but had the purpose of attacking the convoy, and was obviously close to it.
                    Why didn't the convoy attacked by Lützow and Hipper disperse when the British knew for over two hours that they were being attacked by at least 1 heavy cruiser?

                    Precisely because Hipper deliberately did not attack the convoy ships, giving them no reason to disperse. It was a deliberate trap for the British, and it had every chance of success. The destruction of the convoy failed only because of the clumsy actions of Lutzow. And you are trying to present this isolated incident as a system.
    2. 0
      3 March 2025 09: 07
      You beat me to it, I was just about to write about this. Tirpitz was far from alone.
      Plus special conditions, favorable to the Germans - the allies were forced to conduct convoys near the hostile coast. Cargo was also delivered to Iran by sea, but the conditions were completely different.
  9. +2
    3 March 2025 08: 09
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    At the same time, during the First World War, the Germans sent not only specialized but also auxiliary cruisers, converted from civilian ships, to the communications area.



    The British were fully aware of this threat from Germany and even before the start of WWI began to take measures to counter it. On merchant ships, from the beginning of 1913, two 4,7-inch guns were installed on the stern. The crew included trained naval gunners; before the start of the war, a total of 39 merchant ships were armed.
    They could not pose a serious threat to the cruiser, but they could compete with auxiliary cruisers. These ships were on the routes from Australia and South America.
    1. +2
      3 March 2025 08: 37
      Good morning, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      They could not pose a serious threat to a cruiser, but they could compete with auxiliary cruisers.

      With rare exceptions - still no, usually the German auxiliary cruisers quickly resolved the issue with the armed British steamers. Yes, it happened differently, the same "Mewe" got a lot of damage from "Otaki", but in general such protection still did not justify itself
      1. +1
        3 March 2025 09: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, it happened differently, the same "Mewe" got a lot of punishment from "Otaki", but in general such defense did not justify itself

        It is necessary to remember the moral effect produced by the installation of guns on a merchant vessel and the presence of military sailors on it. Also, the introduction of "WAR RISK PREMIUMS" influenced the determination of shipowners to continue the delivery of goods.
        1. +2
          3 March 2025 09: 35
          Quote: 27091965i
          We must remember the moral effect

          Yes, that's true of course:))))
          1. +2
            3 March 2025 10: 20
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Yes, that's true of course:))))

            There are, in my opinion, very good publications, figures, orders, instructions. They show very well the actions of German raiders and they did not have a serious impact on the delivery of goods, unlike newspaper publications. Therefore, the influence of the same "Edmen" on the delivery of goods is greatly exaggerated.
            1. +2
              3 March 2025 11: 01
              Quote: 27091965i
              They show the actions of German raiders very well and they did not have a serious impact on the delivery of goods.

              And they couldn't, in general, it wasn't on the same scale, if we're talking about WWI. And in WWII, they were too cautious. In global terms, they would have lost anyway, of course, but they could have made the British suffer greater losses than they did themselves, having invested in the fleet.
              1. +3
                3 March 2025 11: 50
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Globally, they would have lost anyway, of course, but they could have forced the British to suffer greater losses than they themselves had suffered by investing in the fleet.

                This is very little consolation for Germany, given the reparations after WWI. Wars are not started in order to inflict economic damage on the enemy and lose the war.
                1. +1
                  3 March 2025 14: 45
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  Wars are not started in order to inflict economic damage on the enemy and lose the war.

                  Of course. Wars are started to win. And cruiser warfare can be part of a winning strategy, even if it cannot itself bring victory.
                  In order to achieve victory, it is not necessary to win all the battles of the war. It is enough to win the decisive battle:))))) Including - and by dispersing the enemy's resources to other, secondary directions. If we, having sent a division, created the impression on the enemy that there are 15 of them and he transferred his forces, weakening the main army in the general battle - this is a winning strategy, although the division that we sent will not be able to defeat the forces sent against it.
                  The same is true of cruiser warfare. It is not for victory, but for the diversion of resources.
                  1. 0
                    3 March 2025 16: 03
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    The same is true of cruiser warfare. It is not for victory, but for the diversion of resources.

                    Theory is good, of course, but what resources were the German raiders able to divert in WWI? Admiral Jeram's Far Eastern squadron. The battlecruisers Invincible and Inflexible are on the conscience of Admiral Cradock.
                    1. 0
                      3 March 2025 18: 52
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      Theory is good, of course, but what resources were German raiders able to divert during WWI?

                      And the Germans did not even try to conduct it in any noticeable form. It was conducted only by those specially built cruisers that were in the ocean at the beginning of the war - the Germans did not strive to send others (except auxiliary ones) on raids.
                      1. 0
                        3 March 2025 21: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And the Germans did not even try to conduct it in any noticeable form. It was conducted only by those specially built cruisers that were in the ocean at the beginning of the war - the Germans did not strive to send others (except auxiliary ones) on raids.

                        This does not agree with your comments.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of course. Wars are started to win. And cruiser warfare can be part of a winning strategy, even if it cannot itself bring victory.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The same is true of cruiser warfare. It is not for victory, but for the diversion of resources.

                        The Germans are not so stupid as to deploy "trade destroyers" onto communications for the sake of "sports interest".
                      2. +1
                        3 March 2025 21: 14
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The Germans are not so stupid as to deploy "trade destroyers" onto communications for the sake of "sports interest".

                        How to say.
                        "Deutschland" and "Spee" ended up in the ocean precisely out of "sporting interest".
                        Both went to sea on August 21, when it was still unclear what would happen and where they would go.
                        Probably, if the Allies had come to an agreement with the Germans, the battleships would have calmly returned from their "training cruises" and no one would have found out (maybe much later) about the true purpose of the ships' departure to sea...
      2. +1
        4 March 2025 10: 27
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        With rare exceptions - still no, usually the German auxiliary cruisers quickly resolved the issue with the armed British steamers. Yes, it happened differently, the same "Mewe" got a lot of damage from "Otaki", but in general such protection still did not justify itself

        But what if we look at the situation a little more broadly? The TR's armament increased the shell consumption of the intercepting VSKR (and the cellars were not bottomless) and deprived it of the prize - by the time the most stubborn TR stopped, all that was left was to remove the crew of this wreck. Plus, return fire inflicted at least some damage on the VSKR, which was not so easy to repair during the raid.
        And yes, there are many TRs, but few VSKRs. Sooner or later, for every "Stier" there will be a "Stephen Hopkins". smile
  10. 0
    3 March 2025 09: 19
    Accordingly, the only role left for cruisers in the fight on communications was to destroy enemy convoys. This use of cruisers seems entirely justified.

    To successfully complete such tasks, cruisers must have a clear advantage over escort forces.
    The defeat of PQ-17 was largely due not to the threat of cruisers, but to the presence of a powerful battleship; without the Tirpitz, the escort would hardly have withdrawn to join the main forces. Let us recall Operation Rainbow, where the German heavy cruisers Admiral Hipper and Lutzow were repulsed by light escort forces that had waited for reinforcements to arrive. Wasn't this what enraged Hitler, with a hasty demand to scrap all large ships, and for Raeder to be replaced by Doenitz?
    To this it is necessary to add that it is necessary to take into account who has supremacy at sea, and it did not belong to Germany, therefore the participation of large ships in attacks on Allied convoys could have only temporary success, since the weather and fortune could not favor the Germans forever, especially with an ever-increasing lag in the number of warships and aircraft. If the German plan "Z" had been carried out, perhaps the nature of the naval war would have become different from what happened in reality, but the implementation of this plan is already from "alternate history".
    1. +1
      3 March 2025 09: 42
      Quote: Per se.
      To successfully complete such tasks, cruisers must have a clear advantage over escort forces.

      Both Scheer and Hipper destroyed their convoys, having superiority in forces. Scheer was opposed by an auxiliary cruiser, Hipper - by no one at all. In the New Year's battle, the Germans also had an undeniable advantage
      Quote: Per se.
      Let us recall Operation Rainbow, where the German heavy cruisers Admiral Hipper and Lützow were repelled by light escort forces that waited for reinforcements to arrive.

      They did. But their capabilities were practically exhausted, and the Lutzow came within visual range of the convoy ships. That is, despite the Germans' very cautious manner of fighting, without the intervention of the British cruisers the convoy was doomed. In fact, if the Germans had been persistent, it would have been doomed even with this intervention. But they were not.
      Quote: Per se.
      Isn't that what made Hitler furious?

      He was furious that 2 heavy cruisers were unable to cope with an enemy that was inferior in strength, taking into account 2 light cruisers, of course.
      Quote: Per se.
      therefore, the participation of large ships in attacks on Allied convoys could only have temporary success, since the weather and fortune could not favor the Germans forever

      In the next (and final) article I will present some statistics on this matter.
      Quote: Per se.
      Had the German plan "Z" been carried out, perhaps the nature of the naval war would have been different from what actually happened.

      Where else, really?:)))) The Kriegsmarine has already done a lot, and if they hadn't stopped in Norway, they would have been priceless:))))
      1. +2
        3 March 2025 10: 50
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Kriegsmarine has already done a lot, and if they hadn't stopped in Norway, they would have been priceless:))))
        The first loss, "Admiral Graf Spee", then "Blücher", "Bismarck", "Scharnhorst". The conversion of "Gneisenau" for 380 mm guns, with the cutting of a section, was never completed, the remaining heavy ships ended their days in the German fleet, being destroyed by bombs or blown up by their crews at anchor (repair yards). The Germans could not solve anything in the defeat of the convoys more than what was.
        Without dominance at sea, even approximate equality, all surface fleet operations become problematic and success temporary.
        1. +3
          3 March 2025 11: 18
          Quote: Per se.
          Without naval dominance, even approximate equality, all surface fleet operations become problematic.

          We will take a closer look at this thesis in the next article. hi
          1. 0
            4 March 2025 06: 16
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Just in the next article
            We will wait. Now I would also like to note that the idea of ​​sending battleships and heavy cruisers on a virtually single raid is hardly a good idea. "Bismarck" and "Prince Eugen" were spotted already when passing the Danish Straits, then, already in the Danish Strait, the Germans were tracked by a British cruiser, unfortunately, its radio did not reach the addressees. With the advent of radar and aviation, such raids increasingly turned into an adventure. The Germans lost "Bismarck" in vain, if they had not scattered their forces, but kept the large ships in an operational fist, it would probably have been more useful. The death of "Scharnhorst" was also due to its single raid.
  11. 0
    3 March 2025 09: 23
    Andrey, you cleverly sidestep the aircraft carrier option with the phrase "aircraft carriers had enough tasks without destroying transports." Didn't cruisers have tasks? I wrote in the previous thread that the best option for fighting merchant tonnage was the Japanese Zuiho. 7800 miles of range, 30 aircraft for reconnaissance and attacks on single ships and convoys, as well as combating enemy air reconnaissance. There is no armor, but as you correctly noted, it is not required. 28 knots of speed is enough to slip past hunters or maintain distance from them while carrier-based aircraft are engaged.
    1. +1
      3 March 2025 09: 58
      Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
      Andrey, you cleverly avoid the option with aircraft carriers with the phrase "aircraft carriers had enough tasks without destroying transports."

      Not "cleverly", but "objectively".
      Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
      I wrote in the previous thread that the best option for fighting merchant tonnage is the Japanese Zuiho.

      Wrote. And I didn't argue with you, you have the right to your point of view. But since you insist...
      Firstly, an aircraft carrier is not very suitable for fighting on communications for one single reason - it can only conduct such a fight in violation of all the maritime laws of the time. And even the Germans tried to comply with these laws at the initial stage. An aircraft carrier cannot detain and inspect a ship, it cannot even properly determine its affiliation. An aircraft carrier can only sink, and without determining who it has come across - a British ship, a neutral, its own auxiliary cruiser... An aircraft carrier cannot give the crew time to stop the ship, cannot wait until the crew lowers the lifeboats and leaves it, etc.
      But let's say that we already have massacres going on without regard for the laws. Then what?
      And the fact is that you don't need an aircraft carrier. You need an aircraft carrier with an air group of the level of good Japanese pilots of the period 1941-42. Who are actually a rare commodity. Whom the same Japan simply could not reproduce. And who were head and shoulders above all other carrier-based aviators in the world. Because if you put average pilots on your "Zuiho", you will get approximately the same as what the Germans had in the North. Yes, their planes flew. Yes, they attacked convoys. Yes, sometimes they even sank someone. But in general, they were nowhere near being able to destroy a convoy from the air. And your "Zuiho" without pilots of the level of "Genda's chicks" - will not be able to either.
      And with such pilots, spending such a precious resource on raids by single aircraft, on sinking transports... To put it mildly, it is irrational.
      1. 0
        3 March 2025 10: 08
        Genda's chicks are only needed to attack a carrier's gun-studded escort formation, moving at 25-30 knots and actively maneuvering. What can a normal transport do against a torpedo bomber?
        The British stools with torpedoes showed themselves to be excellent against both the Germans and the Italians, and those were not at all peaceful transports, and the British clearly did not have the best planes and pilots.
        And Zuiho doesn't necessarily have to be Japanese, it can be German. It's just an example of how to get an effective raider cheaply and without violating treaties - rebuild a suitable hull into an aircraft carrier, equip it with mediocre pilots and planes. And try to catch it in the vastness of the ocean.
        1. +2
          3 March 2025 10: 40
          Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
          Genda's chicks are only needed to attack a carrier's gun-studded escort formation, moving at 25-30 knots and actively maneuvering. What can a normal transport do against a torpedo bomber?

          Exactly what they opposed to the German air force's raids on the polar convoys. And that was enough. The German pilots, having some experience of working over the sea, could not destroy the convoys with their close escort (destroyers/frigates in not too large numbers)
          Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
          The British stools with torpedoes showed themselves to be excellent against both the Germans and the Italians, and those were not at all peaceful transports, and the British clearly did not have the best planes and pilots.

          And again you are wrong. The British had highly professional carrier-based aviation pilots, who in a number of skills gave 100 points ahead even to the American carrier-based pilots of 1944. Let's remember the battle at the Mariana Islands - the Americans lost 80 planes during a night landing. The British flew at night all the time, it was not a problem for them.
          The British were able to keep their carrier-based aviation as part of the Royal Navy, they did not give it to the Royal Air Force. That is where the results came from, but the British also had few carrier-based aircraft.
          Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
          And Zuiho doesn't necessarily have to be Japanese, it can be German too.

          You didn't hear the main idea - Zuiho could be from Alpha Centauri, the issue is not the ship, but the pilots for it.
          Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
          rebuild a suitable hull into an aircraft carrier, equip it with mediocre pilots and aircraft

          And you won't get anything out of it - such a ship won't be able to destroy an average convoy
          1. +1
            3 March 2025 14: 00
            The not-so-average PQ-18 with a good experienced escort and even an escort aircraft carrier attacked 43 not-so-maneuverable torpedo bombers. As a result, minus 8 transports at a time.
            What are the chances of a regular British convoy escort saving transports somewhere in the Atlantic, or where can you get a comparable escort with an aircraft carrier for each convoy? And what are the chances of some British colonial port repelling a raid by 30 bombers and torpedo bombers? And most importantly - how can you parry a truly elusive ship that can get you from over the horizon, remaining completely safe?
            And besides this, there is another nuance. A regular raider only hits the one he caught up with, while aviation gets everyone within range, which significantly increases the raider's efficiency.
            1. +2
              3 March 2025 15: 05
              Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
              The not-so-average PQ-18 with a good experienced escort and even an escort aircraft carrier attacked 43 not-so-maneuverable torpedo bombers. As a result, minus 8 transports at a time.

              You forgot to mention 35 bombers, whose attack was coordinated with torpedo bombers to achieve a better effect. A total of 78 aircraft, which is a little two and a half times more than the "Zuiho" you propose can fit in general. And considering that the "Zuiho" will also need reconnaissance floatplanes, for such a raid you will need about 3 "Zuiho"
              You also forgot to mention that the second and third air attacks on the convoy were not successful, although, for example, 71 aircraft participated in the third one. But only 1 transport was sunk.
              And, of course, you completely forgot that, according to German data, 10 aircraft, including 44 torpedo bombers, had to be used to sink 38 ships.
              Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
              The most important thing is how to parry a truly elusive ship that can reach you from beyond the horizon, while remaining completely safe?

              It is not elusive and far from completely safe. The silhouette is extremely recognizable, impossible to confuse. Late evening, night, early morning, bad weather - planes do not fly, but it is easy to meet a ship. But even on a clear day, aviation does not provide omniscience. Even a modern aircraft carrier, with its AWACS planes and powerful SAR can sometimes be caught "with its pants down"
              Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
              And besides this, there is another nuance. A regular raider only hits the one he caught up with, while aviation gets everyone within range, which significantly increases the raider's efficiency.

              And again - wrong. Look how many attacks aircraft carriers of those years actually managed to prepare. Well, you found a convoy at dawn, attacked it during the day once or twice, that's it, night. But a merchant ship, even at 8 knots, will travel 12 km in 178 hours, look for it later...
              1. 0
                3 March 2025 15: 12
                attacks on a very representative order in the conditions of the polar night are not very effective in themselves. In addition, on the second day a Soviet escort was added to it, and the main target was an escort aircraft carrier. Hence the losses and only 1 accidentally destroyed transport. But these are very specific weather conditions, a powerful experienced escort and large, non-maneuverable Heinkels-111 and Junkers-88.
                Now give such an escort to half of the British convoys in the Atlantic and the British fleet will be finished. There won't even be any need to sink anyone in these convoys.
                It is enough to conduct reconnaissance directly along the course of movement in the evening to reduce the chance of meeting someone to a minimum. Well, again, a single ship will not be able to chase an aircraft carrier, it will simply be sunk, which means an increase in the number of hunters again. And where to get ships, they ran out at the convoy escort stage.
                1. 0
                  3 March 2025 19: 10
                  Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                  attacks on a very representative order in the conditions of the polar night are not very effective in themselves

                  Where did you find the polar night in September?
                  Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                  and the main target was an escort aircraft carrier

                  In the second attack, not the third.
                  Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                  Moreover, on the second day, a Soviet escort was added to it.

                  Yes. But alas, our EMs were not at all leaders in air defense, which was rather mediocre.
                  Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                  Now give such an escort to half the British convoys in the Atlantic and the British fleet will be finished.

                  Why do you need it like this? A third of it is enough, considering that your air group will be three times smaller than the one that attacked PQ-18
          2. 0
            3 March 2025 20: 25
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The British had highly professional carrier-based aviation pilots who, in a number of skills, were 100 points ahead even of the American carrier-based pilots of the 1944 model.

            I think the issue is in the airplanes used... :)
            It seems to me that the Wildcat or Dauntless would not take off or land with a pitching range of 50 feet... But the Swordfish could do that.
    2. 0
      3 March 2025 13: 51
      The planes on a small aircraft carrier quickly run out of gas. The squadron needs to be driven with the aircraft.
      1. 0
        3 March 2025 14: 04
        not so fast, besides, no one has cancelled the supply ship.
        1. 0
          3 March 2025 18: 17
          An aircraft carrier, a supply ship, three or four more destroyers for that, and better yet, a couple of cruisers.)) An aircraft carrier of those times had a lousy feature - a straight flight deck with elevators in the middle. If something happens, you either only accept planes or only release them. So, you need two aircraft carriers. For combat stability.
          There are some application features such that in order to operate aircraft, you need to maintain full speed or close to full speed against the wind. That is, go where you need to, and not where you want to.
          This is a small part of why no one even thought of cruising on an aircraft carrier. Not even the Americans. They only broke into the internal Japanese seas with their units at the very end of the war. But that was already a pogrom. And what's more, of the remnants.
          1. 0
            4 March 2025 09: 19
            What's the point of destroyers? All raiders managed without them. And supply ships did just fine without them.
            Why combat resistance if the carrier itself should not participate in combat?
            Prepared the squadron for takeoff, lined it up on the deck, picked up speed, lifted it up. The rest of the time, no one limits it. Besides, these tricks are only needed for the takeoff of attack aircraft with weapons, air reconnaissance and fighters take off without them.
            1. 0
              4 March 2025 10: 13
              Let's go back to the beginning. The smaller the aircraft carrier, the faster the planes run out of gas. And without security, the aircraft carrier is doomed.
              1. 0
                4 March 2025 11: 38
                Let's get back. 500 tons of aviation fuel is 500 flights. Enough for a month.
                The aircraft carrier is finished, only if you get close to it. But the aircraft carrier sees you and knows your course and speed, and you don’t even know that it’s somewhere nearby. What are the chances of crossing paths with it?
    3. 0
      4 March 2025 10: 37
      Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
      I wrote in the previous thread that the best option for combating merchant tonnage is the Japanese Zuiho. 7800 miles of range, 30 aircraft for reconnaissance and attacks on single ships and convoys, as well as combating enemy air reconnaissance.

      Everything would be fine... but such an aircraft carrier will be sent to hunt for tonnage only when the AUGs of the "Big Fleet" are equipped. To distract a full-fledged light aircraft carrier for extraneous tasks, when the enemy's aircraft carriers and battleships are sailing calmly? No way! smile
      And yes, the aircraft carriers will also go hunting for this raider. The Yankees could have made a mistake with the strategy before the war, considering battleships as the main force, and aircraft carriers as reconnaissance and counterintelligence aircraft for the squadron. But they guessed the tactics correctly: the main task of the Yankee aircraft carriers, which they worked on from year to year, was the long-range detection and destruction of enemy aircraft carriers. Because the best fight against enemy reconnaissance aircraft is the destruction of their base.
      And yes, this AV raider won't be able to operate covertly. A single-engine aircraft over the sea simply screams about the presence of AVs in the area.
      1. 0
        4 March 2025 11: 42
        substantial forces will be dispatched to hunt for one light aircraft carrier converted from a tanker; it can sink merchant tonnage in a huge radius, unlike artillery ships. Assess the effectiveness.
        1. 0
          4 March 2025 15: 32
          Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
          A significant force will be dispatched to hunt for one light aircraft carrier converted from a tanker

          Ah, so what we have is no longer a light special-built aircraft carrier, but a rebuilt tanker?
          Well then, they'll send an AVE to find and destroy it - fortunately, the Yankees built more than a hundred of them. Kaiser alone delivered 50 of them in a little over a year.
          Plus basic patrols - even shooting them down will give an approximate search area.
          1. 0
            4 March 2025 15: 54
            Why already? Zuiho is a submarine floating base, although it was originally intended to be built as a squadron tanker. So this is a conversion.
            In this approximate area, catch a vessel with a speed of 28 knots, which is actually designed for aerial reconnaissance.
            US escorts have a maximum speed lower than the same Zuiho - economic, by the time they reach the area where the patrolman was lost, there will be no one to look for there. And these are American escorts. But what if the raider is German, simply built as an analogue of the Zuiho and in 39-40 is terrorizing the British in the Atlantic?
  12. +2
    3 March 2025 11: 01
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Grossvater
    Auxiliary cruisers could only operate in the godforsaken bear (probably more correctly - whale) corners of the ocean.

    Where the Spee operated, an auxiliary cruiser could also operate.

    Perhaps I didn't express my thoughts clearly enough. Monday morning, give me a discount.
    We compare different methods of fighting on communications, without taking into account the different economic and shipbuilding capabilities of the opponents. Actually, you are writing about the same thing. While Spee was hanging around in the corners, sinking single transports (I don’t remember if he had any unprotected convoys to his credit), there was no need for such a powerful ship. You are absolutely right here. As soon as he met with a group of cruisers, Amu was basically screwed, because you are absolutely right, with the holes in his design he received, it was categorically not recommended to sail in the NWA. Now if Germany had built not three, but six battleships, and sent them in pairs, then three Englishmen would hardly have had time to do anything.
    When discussing cruiser warfare in WWII, one should not forget about the economics of the parties. Just as in WWI, about geography.
    1. 0
      3 March 2025 12: 10
      Sorry, WNA. Winter in the North Atlantic.
  13. 0
    3 March 2025 14: 28
    Dear Andrey, as always, you make me happy!
    Thank you, we are waiting for the continuation!
  14. 0
    3 March 2025 15: 06
    When comparing the effectiveness of the Scheer and auxiliary cruisers, the author forgets to mention the fact that the pickpocket and auxiliary cruiser had almost the same ability to detect ships in the open sea. The only difference was the height of the observation point, aka the signal bridge.
    Aviation? Yes, the Scheer had it on the books, but was it used in part? What percentage of the ships sunk by the Scheer were those that were discovered by seaplanes?
    But auxiliary cruisers took seaplanes on board, this was written about in the article right here on this site, that is, the capabilities of the Scheer and the auxiliary cruiser to detect ships WERE THE SAME.
  15. 0
    3 March 2025 16: 34
    The importance of the third point may not be obvious, but let us look at the history of the naval war of 1939-45. The small number of German battleships and heavy cruisers had so tied the hands of the Royal Navy that it was unable to provide its Mediterranean Fleet with the modern ships that Admiral E. B. Cunningham desperately needed.

    The lack of modern battleships in the ABC is not due to the actions of the German fleet, but to the RN's severe shortage of these battleships. In fact, the Limeys had two combat-ready post-Washington ships until 1943: the lead "King", "Prince" and the "Duke" that replaced the sunken one. And "Anson" and "Howe" were no longer in time for the Mediterranean battles.
    Plus the funny policy of the Admiralty, when the ABC howls like a wolf about the lack of a battleship, and a little further south, on the other side of the Suez Canal, Somerville's 5 battleships play hide and seek with Kido Butai - just to avoid meeting.
  16. 0
    3 March 2025 18: 17
    The departure of the German squadron, led by the battleship Tirpitz, led to the convoy being scattered

    Not so... The order to disperse was given on the evening of July 4th, the Tirpitz with the squadron left in the afternoon of the 5th.
    On the basis of what information the Admiralty disbanded the convoy is unknown, and, I think, will never be known.
    The British promised to declassify almost all documents on PQ-17 in 2017 (by the 75th anniversary), but nothing happened...

    Everything is true, but there is a nuance.

    The nuance is that Kranke's main task was to indicate the presence of warships in the south in order to facilitate the "twins'" raid, scheduled for December 40 - January 41 (but storms ruined everything).
    The convoy turned out to be, so to speak, a pleasant bonus for the Germans...
    1. 0
      3 March 2025 19: 22
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Not so... The order to disperse was given on the evening of July 4th, the Tirpitz with the squadron left in the afternoon of the 5th.

      The coming exit:))))))) The British knew that the Germans were preparing.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      On the basis of what information the Admiralty disbanded the convoy is unknown, and, I think, will never be known.

      They'll invent a time machine and... "I envy the descendants. They'll learn so many interesting things!" (c)
      1. 0
        4 March 2025 16: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        They'll invent a time machine and... "I envy the descendants. They'll learn so many interesting things!" (c)

        Yeah ...
        It wasn't like that at all. It wasn't like that at all.
        © attributed to IVS - regarding the film "Unforgettable 1919".
  17. -1
    3 March 2025 19: 29
    Dear Author, thank you very much for another very informative article.
    For the sake of completeness, it would be very interesting to reflect on the methodology of assessing the mutual influence of the simultaneous presence at sea of ​​"pocket battleships" and specially built cruisers on the effectiveness of the Allied air and naval forces in combating them. To put it more simply, could it not be that the high success of specially built cruisers is largely due to and determined by the fact that the same British concentrated their main attention and efforts on finding and destroying "pocket battleships", without which the results would have been completely different?
  18. 0
    4 March 2025 07: 22
    Thank you, Andrey, for continuing!
    A little late with the answer.
    Of course, cruisers of the Second World War could be engaged in the destruction of single enemy merchant ships. But according to the criterion of "cost/effectiveness" such use of them looks completely unjustified. This task was solved by auxiliary cruisers and submarines at much lower costs; there was no need to build cruisers for such a hunt.
    Accordingly, for cruisers in the context of the fight on communications, there was only one role left – the destruction of enemy convoys.

    I think that this is where the main mistake lies. The destruction of a strong convoy (10-20 transports + 6-12 escort ships, including a cruiser) is beyond the capabilities of a single cruiser, be it the Scheer or the Hipper. The fight against polar convoys proves that this is far from always possible even with a squadron of cruisers and destroyers. Success requires a complex operation of surface forces, aviation and submarines, such as Rosselsprung, and this is by no means a raid, and it was carried out in fairly cramped conditions, and not in the open ocean.
    The task of the naval blockade of Great Britain was not solved by the actions of surface forces and submarines on communications, but by the creation of the Strategic Air Command (SAC) of Germany somewhere in 1935-1936 with the development of appropriate aircraft and means of attack, as well as the training of crews. Moreover, the actions of submarines were also to be coordinated by the SAC.
    All this does not negate raiding as a means of fighting in the ocean expanses, but this is a completely different task.
    1. 0
      4 March 2025 08: 50
      Good morning! hi
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The destruction of a strong convoy (10-20 transports + 6-12 escort ships, including a cruiser) is beyond the capabilities of a single cruiser, be it the Scheer or the Hipper.

      Of course. But the vast majority of Atlantic convoys could not even dream of such an escort. And a cruiser does not always have to be alone - in the same "New Year's battle" 2 German heavy cruisers with destroyers generally outnumbered the British forces protecting the convoy
      1. 0
        4 March 2025 14: 01
        Hello again.
        So we come to the main point:
        - boundary conditions for the use of a raider against convoys.
        From here the following can be determined:
        - the appearance of a cruiser-raider;
        - application strategy;
        - combat/withdrawal tactics;
        - basing, support and interaction with other forces fighting on enemy communications.
        Looking ahead: what I wrote about a ship of 20-25 thousand tons is not about a squadron battle.
        1. +1
          4 March 2025 14: 28
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          So we come to the main point:

          Absolutely right. That is, just in time for my next article. Or maybe two - I assumed that there would be an extreme one, but there are so many arguments that I either need to add more to make two, or cut something to fit into one:)))))
          1. 0
            4 March 2025 16: 14
            Absolutely right. That is, just in time for my next article.

            Let's look forward to it!
          2. -1
            4 March 2025 23: 35
            Andrey, are you familiar with the novel "Variant Bis"? Even if it is an alternative, how can one evaluate the effectiveness of a raid by a detachment of a battleship, a battle cruiser and an aircraft carrier against enemy communications?
          3. -1
            4 March 2025 23: 44
            Andrey, are you familiar with the novel "Variant Bis"? If so, how can one evaluate the effectiveness of a raid by a detachment consisting of a battleship, a battlecruiser and an aircraft carrier against enemy ocean communications?
            1. +1
              6 March 2025 11: 13
              Quote: Slug_BDMP
              Andrey, are you familiar with the novel "Variant Bis"?

              Good afternoon! Yes, of course, I read it with great pleasure.
              Quote: Slug_BDMP
              If so, how can one evaluate the effectiveness of a raid by a detachment consisting of a battleship, a battlecruiser and an aircraft carrier against enemy ocean communications?

              Depends on the conditions. In 1940, such raids would have had a much higher chance of success than in 1944. A one-off raid, as described by Anisimov, is quite realistic and possible. By the way, I don’t see anything super impossible in the effectiveness of the raid under “Option Bis”, except for one thing - as you remember, at the final stage our detachment was intercepted by 3 KG5. The British, even having received damage to one battleship, but having two more, would not have left the battle
              1. 0
                6 March 2025 17: 37
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                A one-time raid, as described by Anisimov, is quite realistic and possible.

                First, tell me how you could complete the Soyuz and Kronstadt, I will simply keep quiet about the Chkalov and its air group...

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                except for one - as you remember, at the final stage our detachment was intercepted by 3 KG5.

                Night battle... in November '44... without fire control radars.
                It's a kind of fantasy.
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 18: 09
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  First, tell me how you could complete the Soyuz and Kronstadt, I will simply keep quiet about the Chkalov and its air group...

                  Maxim, I have already told you about this, but I can repeat it.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  to the question whether the T-72 can destroy a hundred cataphracts, I will answer - yes. Because the cataphracts have nothing to counter the T-72 with. And you will answer - no, because when there were cataphracts, there were no T-72s, and when the T-72 appeared, there were no cataphracts. We are both right, but I am considering the alt-historical version (they coincided in time), and you - the historical one (they did not coincide in time)

                  I am asked about
                  Quote: Slug_BDMP
                  how can one evaluate the effectiveness of a raid by a detachment consisting of a battleship, a battlecruiser and an aircraft carrier against enemy ocean communications

                  Note that no one asks me about SOVIET LKR, LK and AV, I am asked about "spherical raid of spherical LK/LKR/AV in a vacuum" and its possible effectiveness.
                  And I answer this question, again without saying anything about SOVIET ships.
                  But, by the way, Anisimov quite organically integrated their construction into his alternative. Have you read it?
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  Night battle... in November '44... without fire control radars.
                  It's a kind of fantasy.

                  Now you are again setting conditions that were not in the task given to me:))))))
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2025 18: 26
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Maxim, I have already told you about this, but I can repeat it.

                    I noticed that when you want to get away from an uncomfortable topic, you start to talk your interlocutor away... ;)
                    I can do that too, but I'm too lazy to turn my brains inside out.
                    Therefore, at this point in the discussion, allow me to take my leave. hi
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2025 18: 34
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      I noticed that when you want to get away from an uncomfortable topic, you start to talk your interlocutor away... ;)

                      You simply do not understand me, because you have not seriously studied alt-history and do not want to do so. This is normal. Although for me it is sad. For you, what I say on this topic will always remain heresy, and that is a pity. But I understand you.
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      Therefore, at this point in the discussion, allow me to take my leave.

                      We continue it in your other comment:)))))))
                      1. 0
                        6 March 2025 18: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        because you have not seriously studied alt-history and do not want to do so.

                        Andrey, the thing is that in my opinion, in order to "alternative globally" you need to know global history at a very good level. For me, this is a luxury, because even in the local area of ​​history that I am interested in, there are so many blank spots that it would be enough for 10 lifetimes ahead.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is normal.

                        Thank you, doctor... wassat

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        For you, what I say on this topic will always remain heresy, which is a pity. But I understand you.

                        Well... You are not Giordano Bruno, and I am not Torquemada... laughing
                        I also like to think alternatively, but locally and within the framework of the current reality, for example, would the Eugen have survived if it had stayed with the Bismarck or how the German Baltenflotte could have looked with our Red Banner Baltic Fleet at the end of September 41...
            2. 0
              6 March 2025 17: 28
              Quote: Slug_BDMP
              Andrey, are you familiar with the novel "Variant Bis"?

              Unlike Andrey, I hurt my hand and forehead while reading...
              In terms of content, it's an owl stretched over a globe (and during the stretching process, the owl was treated five times and the globe was repaired the same number of times), with enough pianos in the bushes to make 100 Hollywood movies... :)
              Harris's "Fatherland", in which the Germans took Moscow and recaptured "Overlord", is simply a history textbook.
              1. 0
                6 March 2025 18: 12
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Unlike Andrey, I hurt my hand and forehead while reading...

                Ok, so you read it. Your reaction to it is quite predictable.
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                In terms of content - an owl stretched over a globe (and during the stretching process, the owl was treated five times and the globe was repaired the same number of times), with the same number of grand pianos in the bushes

                I tell you as an old, gifted, alt-historical grandfather - there aren't that many royals there:)))))) But the world has been changed very much in relation to the real one, that's true.
                1. 0
                  6 March 2025 18: 22
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Ok, so you read it. Your reaction to it is quite predictable.

                  It was so interesting why the friends from VIF were so pissed off. :)

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  But the world has changed very much in relation to the real one, that’s true.

                  So much so that "SovSoyuz", which in peacetime, under the most optimistic scenarios, would have been handed over to the fleet only by the fall of 44, was already cutting through the sea in full combat readiness in the summer of 44... About "Kronstadt", which did not even have artillery in an experimental state, which is why they wanted to install German 38-cm, too...
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2025 18: 32
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    So much so that "SovSoyuz", which in peacetime, under the most optimistic scenarios, would have been handed over to the fleet only by the fall of 44, was already cutting through the sea in full combat readiness in the summer of 44... About "Kronstadt", which did not even have artillery in an experimental state, which is why they wanted to install German 38-cm, too...

                    Absolutely right. In the current reality, SovSoyuz could not enter service in 44 or 45, and it is generally unclear when it could. Kron - if we still put a 12-inch domestically developed one on it, the beginning of the 50s is generally possible.
                    But if I feel like putting them into operation in the alternative, then it is possible. It's just that the bifurcation point (the place where history went differently than in the Russian Empire) will have to be taken somewhere around 1915. Or maybe even earlier. And the civil war will have to be rewritten, and the subsequent events,
                    1. 0
                      6 March 2025 18: 35
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      But if I feel the urge to put them into operation as an alternative, then it is possible.

                      Well, in general, Anisimov depicted how to do it... But, IMHO, it turned out more than stupid.
                      1. 0
                        6 March 2025 18: 42
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Well, in general, Anisimov depicted how to do it...

                        Anisimov was writing a work of fiction after all. In order to justify his alternative among people knowledgeable in history, he would have to write notes approximately three times thicker than the book itself, and it is not a fact that this would be enough. Does he need it?
                        I would start not even from 1915, but would go even earlier, to the 19th century, would slightly accelerate the processes of industrialization of the Russian Empire to start with, in order to raise the base of 1913, but a revolution is still needed, and a charismatic leader will be needed and a number of other circumstances that would allow the civil war to end much earlier than in the Russian Empire (I would not start it at all, but for Anisimov's USSR it is still needed).
                        Honestly, when I tried to get by with relatively little bloodshed, with minimal rape of history and with bifurcation points in the GW or the USSR, the maximum that I managed to build before the war was heavy cruisers.
                        But the Bis universe is theoretically possible. Only it will have to change deeply and a lot. Having accepted this, most of Anisimov's things cease to be grand pianos
                      2. 0
                        6 March 2025 18: 50
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But the Bis universe is theoretically possible. Only it will have to change deeply and a lot. Having accepted this, most of Anisimov's things cease to be grand pianos

                        But as you rightly noted
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        To justify his alternative among people knowledgeable in history, he would have to write notes approximately three times thicker than the book itself, and it is not a fact that this will be enough.

                        That's why the work is hard to digest, just like "The Year of the Dead Snake"... Fortunately, he didn't write the third book of the trilogy.
                      3. 0
                        6 March 2025 20: 31
                        Let's say this is a budget option or "Encore for the poor"
                        Instead of Sov.Soyuz, completed Izmail, armed/re-armed with 406mm artillery
                        Instead of Kronsh, modernized according to the Italian model, i.e. converted into a battle cruiser Sevastopol
                        Chapaev - well, there are no changes here
                      4. 0
                        6 March 2025 20: 40
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        Chapaev - well, there are no changes here

                        One problem: the air group, which did not exist at all...
                      5. 0
                        6 March 2025 21: 58
                        Well, if they make an aircraft carrier, they will form an air group.
                      6. 0
                        6 March 2025 22: 07
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        Well, if they make an aircraft carrier, they will form an air group.

                        Please provide the aircraft models if you don't mind...
                      7. 0
                        7 March 2025 15: 35
                        Please provide the aircraft models if you don't mind.

                        for example Yak-3K and/or Yak-9K.
                        When the decision is made to complete/rebuild the cruiser "Chapaev" into an aircraft carrier, then the decision will be made to create carrier-based aviation. And then the designers (Mikoyan, Lavochkin, Polikarpov, Yakovlev) will either start creating a new carrier-based aircraft, or adapt the existing one to the carrier-based version.
                      8. 0
                        7 March 2025 18: 56
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        When a decision is made to complete/rebuild the cruiser Chapayev into an aircraft carrier, a decision will also be made to create carrier-based aviation.

                        Anisimov makes it all easy... :)
                        In life, everything is much more complicated. Look at the British, for example.
    2. +1
      6 March 2025 00: 10
      With the right defensive tactics, a large escort is not required to prevent a single raider from destroying a convoy.
      Convoy HX-84 of 37 transports had as an escort one single ship - a passenger liner, on which ancient guns of 19th century manufacture were installed. This was enough for "Admiral Scheer" to be unable to destroy the convoy. Although the case, of course, is special, but in general it shows that when choosing the right tactics of defense against a raider, a large and strong escort is not necessary.
  19. 0
    4 March 2025 18: 37
    This is how it turns out that the construction of the giant battleship Tirpitz, which many fans of naval history consider nothing less than “money down the drain,” essentially paid for itself with the destruction of a single convoy, which was forced to disperse under the threat of attack by this ship.

    The ships were sunk by submarines and aircraft, but Tirpitz did not sink a single ship from the convoy. His merit is rather conditional, since without submarines and aircraft not a single ship could have been damaged because of Tirpitz - he returned to base when he realized that intelligence had discovered his exit.
    And without its existence, boats and aircraft would have sunk many ships.
    In addition, boats and aircraft also cost a lot of marks. A lot of effort and money was spent on the protection, basing and maintenance of Tirpitz.
    1. +1
      5 March 2025 11: 47
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The ships were sunk by submarines and aircraft, but Tirpitz did not sink a single ship from the convoy.

      So the submarines and aircraft were able to operate as if they were on a proving ground precisely because the departure of the Tirpitz led to the disbandment of the convoy. The air defense and anti-submarine systems were destroyed - and the transports turned into isolated targets, whose crews could only pray that they would not be discovered.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And without its existence, boats and aircraft would have sunk many ships.

      Convoy PQ-16: 7 ships sunk out of 35.
      Convoy PQ-17: 22 sunken ships out of 35.
      Convoy PQ-18: 13 ships sunk out of 43.
  20. 0
    5 March 2025 12: 12
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Convoy PQ-16: 7 ships sunk out of 35.
    Convoy PQ-17: 22 ships sunk out of 35.
    Convoy PQ-18: 13 ships sunk out of 43.

    Convoy without Tirpitz and without aircraft: HX 229/SC 122 - 22 ships sunk by submarines only.
    Convoy PQ-17 from Tirpitz only: 0 ships sunk, 3 ships sunk by boats BEFORE the convoy was disbanded.
    1. +1
      5 March 2025 18: 04
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Convoy PQ-17 from Tirpitz only: 0 ships sunk, 3 ships sunk by boats BEFORE the convoy was disbanded.

      There are a couple of nuances...
      1. There were two ships: "Christopher Newport" and "William Hooper".
      2. Both were damaged by aircraft, the crews were removed, and the ships were left drifting without any movement.

      Quote: Kostadinov
      Convoy without Tirpitz and without aircraft: HX 229/SC 122 - 22 ships sunk by submarines only.

      It is incorrect to compare the Atlantic and polar convoys - the conditions of the passage are completely different.
    2. +1
      5 March 2025 19: 42
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Convoy without Tirpitz and without aircraft: HX 229/SC 122 - 22 ships sunk by submarines only.
      Convoy PQ-17 from Tirpitz only: 0 ships sunk, 3 ships sunk by boats BEFORE the convoy was disbanded.

      You can't compare the Atlantic and the North - the conditions of the passage, the cover of the CON and the enemy forces are completely different.
      In CON HX 229 and SC 122 there were only 90 escort ships for 16 ships, and in total - some of the escorts arrived during the battle, replacing those that had left. It is no wonder that with such an escort, three German wolf packs, which deployed 38 submarines, staged a massacre.
      In CON PQ-17, for 35 ships there were 19 escort ships only in direct cover of the ships.

      If the RN and USN had found as many escort ships for the Atlantic as they did for the Northern CONs, then HX 229 and SC 122 would have covered a total of 45-50 escorts. And we would be reading about "hunting Doenitz's wolves." smile
  21. 0
    6 March 2025 13: 06
    If the RN and USN had found as many escort ships for the Atlantic as they did for the Northern CONs, then HX 229 and SC 122 would have covered a total of 45-50 escorts. And we would be reading about "hunting Doenitz's wolves."

    If... and so on, conventions. If they use "if" then PC 17 should not have been dissolved because of Tirpitz.
    A comparison of the two most successful German operations against convoys showed that nothing depended on the German battleships. Everything depended on the mistake of the Allied command and on the ratio of the escort ships and submarines. The money for the battleship only guaranteed big profits for the shipbuilders from Wilhelmhaven.
  22. 0
    24 March 2025 12: 27
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    In terms of content - an owl stretched over a globe (and during the stretching process, the owl was treated five times and the globe was repaired the same number of times),

    laughing laughing laughing