"Washington" cruisers in light of the experience of the cruiser war of 1914-1918

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"Washington" cruisers in light of the experience of the cruiser war of 1914-1918

Let us compare the theses of Ya. Podgorny with the results of clashes between German raiders and the opposing English forces in World War I. In order not to turn the work into a long series of articles, I will not, for the most part, give detailed descriptions of these battles - I will limit myself to providing the esteemed readers with some conclusions on the results of cruiser clashes.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau


These two armored cruisers were the best armored, largest, most powerful ships among all the specially built "Kaiser's corsairs" that operated on British communications during the First World War. But at the same time, they were relatively slow.


As is known, Great Britain entered the war with Germany on August 4, 1914, and the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were lost on December 8, 1914. Accordingly, von Spee, who commanded these cruisers, had just over 4 months at his disposal.

As raiders, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau showed more than modest results, having sunk, according to Ya. Podgorny, 2 sailing ships and 1 steamship off the South American coast. I would also add two transport ships, which the French, in order to avoid capture, sank themselves when German armored cruisers attacked their colony on the island of Papeete (near Tahiti). But this does not change the essence of the matter - the number of intercepted transports turned out to be insignificant. Admiral von Spee still considered his ships more as a "Fleet in being", which would draw off the cruisers of the French and English, shifting to the western shores of South America, where it would operate on communications. Before that, von Spee believed it was possible to strike where and when it would be possible to achieve a great result: for example, he seriously planned to deal with the battlecruiser Australia by suddenly attacking it in the harbor and launching torpedoes.

It is well known that von Spee's squadron fought in two major naval battles. At Coronel it was intercepted by Cradock's British detachment and routed. The German admiral's victory was due to his global superiority in heavy guns - having 12*210-mm guns in a broadside against only 2*234-mm "Good Hope", he also significantly surpassed the British in the level of training of artillerymen. Undoubtedly, this success was not achieved by guns alone. Here, von Spee's correct maneuvering worked, and Lady Luck turned to face him, allowing him to knock out the bow turret of the 234-mm gun of the English flagship at the beginning of the battle.

But still, it is precisely the superiority in artillery became the key factor in the German victory at Coronel. In essence, von Spee destroyed the enemy ships at a distance of about 50-60 cables, where effective shooting with six-inch guns is difficult, and only then closed in to finish off the enemy.

But the good armor of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau did not seem to be of much use in this battle. According to Corbett, the Scharnhorst was hit by only 2 shells, and the Gneisenau by 4, although only one of these hits was serious: the shell hit the barbette of the aft turret of the Gneisenau. True, V. Muzhenikov mentions that the Scharnhorst had armor plates that were displaced in three places, which is why he assumes that von Spee's flagship was hit by 2 shells, not 5. But, unfortunately, V. Muzhenikov does not report the places where the armor plates were displaced, which makes it impossible to assess the damage that the Scharnhorst could have received if it had no protection at all. It should be assumed, however, that these hits were at best from 152 mm shells, and they could hardly have caused damage that would have prevented the ship from cruising. The auxiliary cruiser Mewe, which will be discussed below, received damage during one of her campaigns that could be described as extremely severe, but this did not prevent her from being repaired and continuing her cruising.

The second battle took place near the Falkland Islands, where the armor was of no help to the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Of course, they held out longer than any unarmored ship of similar displacement could have in their place, but everything was decided by the advantage in speed and the main caliber of the British battlecruisers. Having taken up an advantageous combat distance, at which the British admiral did not have to worry too much about the enemy’s 210 mm shells, he destroyed both German armored cruisers, albeit at the cost of a huge expenditure of ammunition. Only speed could have saved von Spee’s ships, but that was something they did not have.

Light cruisers


There were six of them in the British ocean communications. The cruisers Leipzig and Nuremberg, which were part of Admiral Spee's squadron, were too slow to escape the British ships, which was their death sentence. But the fifth cruiser of the German squadron, Dresden, had an advantage in speed: that is why it managed to survive. Later, the cruiser experienced constant problems with its engines, as a result of which it did not conduct active operations and tried to repair it off the coast of Chile. Where it was eventually caught in the bay of the island of Mas-a-Tierra (now Robinson Crusoe) by British cruisers and after a short exchange of fire, it was sunk.

The most successful German raider of the First World War, the cruiser Emden, fought in naval battles twice. The first time, it managed to destroy the Russian cruiser Zhemchug, which was not at all hindered by the weak armor of the Emden, since it managed to catch our crew by surprise. The second time, the Emden was forced to fight the British Sydney, and this encounter turned out to be fatal for the German ship. Again, it was not the armor protection that decided everything, which was frankly weak on both light cruisers, but the superiority in speed and artillery. The advantage in speed allowed the Sydney to catch up and not miss the Emden, and in the battle - to take a convenient distance for its 152-mm guns, from which it could inflict serious damage to the German cruiser, without suffering too much from the fire of its 105-mm guns.

In his report on the battle, Sydney's commander, Captain 1st Rank John S. T. Glossop, reported that he had managed to quickly suppress the German artillery:



"The enemy's fire, at first very accurate and frequent, soon began to slacken, as almost all the damage they had received had been inflicted in the first moment of the action." Glossop noted that the Sydney had been "probably hit ten times," but this may have included shrapnel. In any case, the crew's losses were three killed and thirteen wounded (one of whom subsequently died of his wounds), and the damage to the ship, according to her commander, was "surprisingly small."

The light cruiser Königsberg, unlike the Emden, did not achieve any noticeable results in the cruiser war, having sunk only one merchant ship. The reason for this was the lack of coal for its operations - the British tried to buy up all the coal in the area, and even detained the collier Königsberg, which was supposed to provide Königsberg with fuel. As a result, Königsberg, as a result of a surprise attack, destroyed the old British cruiser Pegasus and got stuck in the mouth of the river, tying down the superior British forces for 8 months, after which it was finally destroyed.

I have already written about the cruiser Karlsruhe in the previous article, so I will repeat briefly: it was precisely its speed that allowed it to avoid combat with both the armored cruiser Suffolk and the light Bristol. A short fire contact with the latter remained without consequences for both opponents. And then Karlsruhe, pirating on communications, sank 17 ships with a tonnage of 72 register tons and perished by a tragic (for it) accident from a magazine explosion.

Auxiliary cruisers


Let's look at the most interesting clashes. Perhaps the most epic was the battle between the auxiliary cruiser Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse, armed with as many as 6*105-mm guns, and the armored deck cruiser Highflyer with 11*152-mm guns on board. Highflyer managed to catch the German cruiser loading coal, when it, standing at anchor, had only a small number of boilers under steam and could not escape.


The battle lasted for an hour and a half, and the Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse remained at anchor the entire time. The Highflyer, having started firing at 9000 m (yards?), did not try to get closer, so as not to fall within the effective range of the German guns. Having spent 500 six-inch shells on a huge stationary target, it only managed to hit about 10 times. How significant they were is shown by the fact that the Germans suffered two wounded, although of the entire crew, 7 officers and 74 sailors took part in the battle, and the rest were transported to the shore. In the end, the Germans sank their own ship.

The outcome of the battle here was also decided by the advantage in artillery, which was realized even in spite of the extremely poor training of the British gunners. At the same time, if the Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse had been on the move, it could have avoided the battle with the Highflyer and fled, since it was superior in speed. Considering the quality of the British ship's gunners, even if it accepted the battle while retreating, the auxiliary cruiser risked little.

The battle between the German auxiliary cruiser Cap Trafalgar and the British auxiliary cruiser Carmania. In this case, the overwhelming superiority in artillery was also on the side of the English ship - 8*120-mm guns against 2*105-mm. Cap Trafalgar could not leave, since it was inferior in speed to Carmania, and was forced to fight, and the result was close to a draw. Cap Trafalgar was lost, but Carmania also received such critical damage that it was brought to the nearest port with difficulty.


Newspaper report of the sinking of the "Cap Trafalgar"

The British auxiliary cruiser Alcantra was not so lucky. It engaged its German counterpart Greif and, with the help of other British ships that approached the battlefield, managed to sink it. But it itself perished – the damage received from the German raider was too severe.

The auxiliary cruiser of the "second wave" "Mewe" achieved the most brilliant victory among all the Kaiser's corsairs - the battleship "King Edward VII" was destroyed by the mines it laid. It had a displacement of 15 tons, a speed of 600 knots, and armament of 18,5*4 mm, 305*4 mm and 234*10 mm, not counting smaller calibers. "Mewe" participated in battles with armed British steamers three times - in all cases, the superiority in artillery allowed the enemy's fire to be quickly suppressed. And if in the first battle there was nothing to suppress - the transport "Clan Mackintosh" heroically tried to shoot back from its only signal gun, then in the second battle "Mewe" received considerable damage.

The British steamship Otaki had a single 120mm gun against 4*150 and 1*105mm guns with two torpedo tubes of the Möwe. But the British opened rapid and surprisingly accurate fire. One British shell hit the bridge of the German raider and penetrated the boiler room, the second hit the coal bunker, causing a fire, and the third exploded under the side, making shrapnel holes in the hull through which water began to penetrate.

As a result, the fire on the Möwe was extinguished only after 5 days (!), and the list immediately after the battle reached 15 degrees. But the damage was repaired, the holes were patched, and the German raider managed to intercept two more British transports, after which it returned to its native land. In the third battle, the Germans, having learned from bitter experience, did not stick their noses into the fire of the British gun with which the transport they were pursuing was armed, and destroyed it from afar.

What conclusions can we draw from the above in relation to the "Washington" cruisers? I would like to draw your attention to the fact that here and below we are not talking about "Washington" cruisers in general, but about the concept of their first series - fast, well-armed and very lightly armored cruisers.

Speed ​​and area of ​​action


These two characteristics were indeed of key importance for cruisers intended for fighting on communications. Not to fight enemy cruiser-hunters, but to avoid them – that was the raider’s motto. And cruisers with a standard displacement of 10 tons, undoubtedly, could and did obtain the necessary qualities. For example, the Japanese heavy cruisers of the Myoko type, possessing a completely extraordinary speed of over 000 knots, could travel 35 miles at 14 knots. The British Washingtons of the Kent type, despite, let’s say, a traditional, if not to say archaic, power plant, generally exceeded the contractual 7 knots per knot and could travel over 000 miles at 31,5 knots, and over 14 miles at 10 knots. The famous German Emden, by the way, had a cruising range of about 000 miles at 12 knots.

Artillery


The battles of the First World War irrefutably demonstrated the advantages of a large caliber, which made it possible to suppress enemy fire from distances at which enemy guns could not or did not have time to cause much damage. And here, the "Washington" cruisers again fit perfectly into the "raider" concept, since high speed and range were organically combined with very powerful 203-mm artillery. It must be said that for a cruiser, an eight-inch caliber is preferable to a six-inch one in most combat situations. The only exceptions are, perhaps, night combat in the absence of artillery radars (but they were still a long way off) and repelling attacks by destroyers. In both cases, the rate of fire came to the fore, which was higher for 152-mm guns for obvious reasons.

But a clash in daylight with an equal enemy is a completely different matter. In the 30s, the level of artillery fire control systems allowed for fire combat at virtually any distance within visual range. However, at long distances, when the projectile flight time greatly exceeds the gun loading speed, the rate of fire of the guns was no longer a determining factor. In addition, due to the particular difficulty of firing at long distances, it was impossible to count on a high percentage of hits. Due to the above, the destructive power was a priority, and of course, it was significantly higher for an eight-inch projectile. If we compare the British guns of the interwar period, we get:

- The mass of a 203 mm projectile is 116,1 kg, the mass of explosives in a semi-armor-piercing and high-explosive projectile is 5,2 and 10 kg, respectively;
- The mass of a 152 mm projectile is 50,8 kg, the mass of explosives in a semi-armor-piercing and high-explosive projectile is 1,7 and 3,6 kg, respectively;

In addition, if the 203 mm gun could effectively hit targets within visual range ("I see the target - I can hit it"), then the 152 mm guns had problems with this. To ensure a similar effective firing range with eight-inch guns, it was necessary to impart an initial velocity of 152-920 m/sec to the 950 mm shells, but not all guns of this caliber had such a speed.

In practice, this meant that there were some distances at which a cruiser armed with 203 mm guns could fight effectively, while a cruiser with 152 mm guns could not. As an example, we can recall the battle in the Java Sea, when the Nati and Haguro with 203 mm guns received a noticeable fire advantage over five allied cruisers under the command of K. Doorman: mainly because three of them were armed with 152 mm guns. And this example is far from the only one.

This does not mean, of course, that light cruisers with six-inch guns had outlived their usefulness, but 203-mm guns were better suited to the tasks of a ship designed to fight on communications. In the event of intercepting an enemy raider in daylight, the battle obviously had to begin at a great distance and turn into pursuit. When running away from the enemy or catching up with him, it is very important to reduce the enemy's speed, and 203-mm guns had a much better chance of coping with this task than 152-mm guns. But even in a night battle, eight-inch guns did not turn into a pumpkin at all, remaining very effective: let us recall the defeat inflicted by Japanese cruisers at Savo Island.

Reservation and constructive protection


Of course, the usefulness of armor cannot be denied. But it is difficult to dispute the fact that in World War I, the outcome of clashes between cruisers on communications was determined not by the level of their protection, but by their speed and firepower.

The German armoured cruisers suppressed the fire of the Good Hope and Monmouth before the British gunners managed to score any significant hits on the German ships. In turn, the Bristol did the same in the battle with the Emden. The British battlecruisers were quite effective in destroying von Spee's ships with their twelve-inch guns, not allowing the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau to get close enough for their 210 mm guns to be dangerous to the British. The cruisers Leipzig and Nuremberg were intercepted with such superiority in forces that no amount of protection could decide anything - only speed could save them.

At the same time, in a sea battle, as well as on land, the saying "not every bullet hits the forehead" is true. Analyzing certain sea battles, we see that most hits fall on parts of the ship, damage to which does not pose a great threat to it. That is why the priority tactic for a cruiser-raider will be to minimize the time during which it will be under fire, and to avoid by all means a fight at a short distance, where even a short-term fire contact can be accompanied by a large number of hits. Consequently, there is no sense in the raider project to sacrifice artillery, speed or range for the sake of protection - and, in fact, there was nothing else to sacrifice.

Taking into account the above, the cruiser's protection can be strengthened only by increasing the ship's displacement beyond the 10 tons stipulated by international treaties. But the usefulness of such an evolution of a cruiser designed for fighting on communications is highly questionable. We must not forget one important point in the statistics of German specially built raiders. Not one of the 000 cruisers that entered British ocean communications returned home. All of them perished for one reason or another.


It seems to be the armored cruiser "Scharnhorst". At the bottom.


The risks of a cruiser going on a raid are enormous. At the same time, when operating on communications, a cruiser with a displacement of 20 tons, all other things being equal, will intercept no more merchant ships than a cruiser of 000 tons, and certainly fewer than two cruisers of 10 tons, operating separately. The increase in displacement gives the raider a greater chance of remaining the winner in a clash with enemy warships, but will add little to its ability to intercept transports under a hostile flag.

In other words, by producing fewer, more powerful cruisers, we risk that they will still be lost, but the damage to enemy shipping will be noticeably less simply due to their small numbers. There has to be a balance somewhere, and given the relatively high cost of the "Washingtons", building heavier ships that would have the same speed, range and artillery and also have advanced armor protection is unlikely to be optimal.

It is also necessary to take into account that the organization of counteraction to "Washington" cruisers operating on communications will seriously "puzzle" the enemy, because for each such cruiser ready to enter communications, two or three equivalent "hunters" will be needed, but the more - the better. In such conditions, it will be necessary to count every penny and, obviously, build ships similar to potential raiders in strength and protection. If a certain country builds fast, but weakly armored ships with heavy 203-mm artillery for a cruiser war, say, against England, then the answer will be the creation of the same cruiser-hunters - not more powerful, but equivalent, but in significantly greater numbers.

At the same time, the practice of the First World War showed that when two weakly protected but at least relatively equal in firepower ships meet in a decisive battle, as was the case with the "Cap Trafalgar" and the "Greif", the probability of their mutual destruction is high. Well, to go to the communications, "catch" a couple of dozen transports there, and then, if you fail to return home, and a decisive battle cannot be avoided, "exchange" the cruiser-corsair for a cruiser-hunter - not such a bad prospect. It is clear that "the king has plenty", and such a strategy will never lead to victory at sea, but in general, a country defending its communications will divert more forces and resources to defending communications than a power attacking them.

Conclusions


It can be stated that the experience of the First World War fully confirms the calculations of Ya. Podgorny. The "Washington" cruiser, as a well-armed, fast and long-range ship, whose armor protection was sacrificed for the above-mentioned qualities, had its own tactical niche, in which its performance characteristics look optimal. This niche is the fight on communications, both in terms of destroying enemy shipping and in terms of protecting its own communications from the encroachments of enemy cruisers.

But now the next question arises: was it worth filling this niche during the Second World War? Were large specialized surface ships needed at all to fight on the communications, or should priority have been given to other means of fighting at sea?

To be continued ...
127 comments
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  1. +3
    18 February 2025 05: 52
    Other means of combat, such as submarines?
    1. +4
      18 February 2025 08: 32
      Submarines, aircraft, auxiliary cruisers.
  2. 0
    18 February 2025 06: 21
    As raiders, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau showed more than modest results, sinking, by I
    There is some mistake here that completely changes the whole meaning.
    1. +4
      18 February 2025 08: 31
      What mistake? As raiders, they, one might say, failed, causing minimal damage to shipping.
      1. +1
        18 February 2025 11: 30
        What mistake?
        I highlighted this error in the quote in bold.
        1. +1
          18 February 2025 17: 45
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          I highlighted this error in the quote in bold.

          Let's clarify. Here is the quote, here is your bold font.
          As raiders, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau showed more than modest results, sinking, by I. Podgorny, 2 sailing ships and 1 steamship off the South American coast.

          Where is the mistake?
          1. +1
            18 February 2025 18: 23
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Where is the mistake?
            What's the by I?
            1. +1
              18 February 2025 18: 48
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              What is Po Ya?

              Yakov)))
              That is, according to the work of Yakov Podgorny.
            2. +1
              18 February 2025 19: 17
              Quote: Dutchman Michel
              by I?

              Already quoted
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              by Ya. Podgorny
            3. 0
              18 February 2025 21: 26
              A letter of the Russian alphabet, in this case an abbreviation of the name (most likely) Jan.
  3. +3
    18 February 2025 06: 40
    Interesting, I personally liked the article! hi
  4. +5
    18 February 2025 06: 43
    To some extent, this material confirms the thesis that a specialized (military) ship has its own performance characteristics to perform the tasks for which it was designed and built. Of course, within the technological and financial capabilities of the manufacturing country, if there are no political agreements (Washington, London, etc.). Therefore, even such a controversial ship as a "Washington" cruiser does not look so bad if it operates within the framework for which it was built. And since any military ship built within restrictions is a victim of compromises, any unsuccessful use of it will raise a lot of questions from critics. Because the latter will always look for a beam in the eye of the designers, regardless of the conditions for creating the ship.
    Plus. Clear and interesting. smile I am waiting for the continuation hi
  5. 0
    18 February 2025 08: 39
    Already in the era of the Great Patriotic War, ships shied away, fearing to meet a Spaniard or a Portuguese, a Dutchman or a Briton in the ocean. And what can we say about the 20th century - there were telegraphs everywhere!
    The Raider was a dead project from the start. Only the Confederate smugglers held on more or less, avoiding combat.
    1. +3
      18 February 2025 09: 12
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Raider was a dead project from the start.

      Emden, Mewe and other successful raiders of WWI and WWII are unlikely to agree with you
      1. +2
        18 February 2025 18: 43
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Emden, Mewe and other successful raiders of WWI and WWII are unlikely to agree with you

        Andrey, you are confusing warm with soft... You are mixing up warships and auxiliary cruisers, mixing up time periods.
        1. +3
          18 February 2025 19: 16
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          Andrey, you are confusing warm with soft...

          Maxim, calm down, please. I'm not confusing anyone or anything. To the statement
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Raider was a dead project from the start.

          I cite examples of successful raiders from WWI and WWII, both cruisers and auxiliary cruisers, that refute this statement.
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          You mix together warships and auxiliary cruisers, you mix together time periods.

          Absolutely right, that's how it was intended. Where do you think I'm wrong?
          1. +2
            18 February 2025 19: 21
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Maxim, calm down, please.

            Were you offended by the figurative expression? Well, I'll take that into account in the future.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Absolutely right, that's how it was intended. Where do you think I'm wrong?

            At the very least, you indirectly equate the tactics of a combat ship and a commercial raider, which is essentially nonsense.
            1. +3
              18 February 2025 19: 29
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              Were you offended by the figurative expression? Well, I'll take that into account in the future.

              It wasn't the expression that upset me, but the reproach that I didn't deserve. If I had, that would have been a completely different matter:))))
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig
              At the very least, you indirectly equate the tactics of a combat ship and a commercial raider, which is essentially nonsense.

              I am not equating the tactics of either. I am saying that there were successful raiders in both WWI and WWII, both among specially built ships (cruisers) and among auxiliary cruisers, which were essentially conversions of civilian ships. What gives you reason to believe that I am equating them in tactics? The tactics are obviously different, but both achieved success.
              1. 0
                18 February 2025 19: 39
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I am saying that there were successful raiders in both WWI and WWII, both among specially built ships (cruisers) and among auxiliary cruisers, which are essentially conversions of civilian ones.

                There is nothing special to discuss about auxiliary cruisers: as I already wrote in one of the parallel topics in WWII, for example, according to British calculations, there were 14 ships with a tonnage of 84,7 thousand GRT per one German auxiliary cruiser.
                Of the combat ships in WWI, these were the Emden and Karlsruhe.
                In WWII from cruisers Only "Scheer" can be noted - the "Jervis Bay" cruiser + 17 ships with a tonnage of 113233 GRT.
                I only take into account individual actions...

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                What gives you reason to believe that I am equalizing them in tactics? The tactics are obviously different, but both have achieved success

                At the very least, mixing them together. :)
                1. +1
                  18 February 2025 21: 20
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  In WWII, the only cruiser worth mentioning was the Scheer - the cruiser Jervis Bay + 17 ships with a tonnage of 113233 GRT.

                  And what about "Hipper" with his massacre at the Azores?
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  At the very least, mixing them together. :)

                  As selection criteria I took ships that were used to interrupt enemy communications and achieved success in doing so. Mewe, Emden, Pinguin and Scheer all meet these criteria.
                  1. 0
                    18 February 2025 22: 03
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And what about "Hipper" with his massacre at the Azores?

                    From December 1940 to March 1941, 9 ships with a tonnage of 40090 GRT, another four ships and the heavy cruiser Berwick were damaged.

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    As selection criteria I took ships used to interrupt enemy communications

                    There are no questions about the auxiliary cruisers, although their actions do not relate to interruption of communications (the scale is not the same).
                    "Emden" and "Scheer" are essentially the same. Yes, they are successful in terms of the amount of tonnage sunk, the first one essentially worked on the "wow effect" (appeared where it was not expected). "Scheer" worked as a "communications interrupter" only during the attack on convoy NH-84, then, in fact, it acted as a regular cruiser in areas where there were relatively few combat ships, until it met "Canadian Cruiser" and "Rantaupajang" near Madagascar. After that, 3 cruisers and 3 cruisers began to press it, and Kranke considered it prudent to go home.
                    Maybe if he had listened to SKL and moved to Antarctica to chase the whalers, the score would have been higher...
                    1. +2
                      19 February 2025 09: 01
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      From December 1940 to March 1941 - 9 ships with a tonnage of 40090 GRT,

                      This is if we count according to the British data. And are they correct? As I understand it, of the 19 ships of the SLS-64 convoy, the fate of 12 is known (7 sunk, 5 survived), and for the other 7 there is no data on either their death or arrival at the port. Is there any data that they survived?
                      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                      There are no questions about auxiliary cruisers, although their actions do not relate to interrupting communications (the scale is not the same).

                      Again, it's a question of terminology. The Germans hoped to interrupt British communications, the VKR is one of the tools of the interruption system (along with submarines and aircraft and so on) so I don't think my definition is wrong.
                      But to avoid misunderstanding, let's change the wording
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      to interrupt enemy communications

                      +
                      to destroy enemy ships on sea and ocean communications
                      1. 0
                        19 February 2025 18: 29
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Is there any evidence that they survived?

                        Oh, how I love conspiracy theorists from history... ;)
                        Convoy SLS 64

                        Shrewsbury - sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by Hipper
                        Warlaby – sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by “Hipper”
                        Westbury - sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by Hipper
                        Borgestad – sunk 12.02.41 by "Hipper"
                        Nailsea Lass – sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by Hipper
                        Perseus – sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by Hipper
                        Oswestry Grange - sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by Hipper
                        Derrynane - sunk 12.02.41/XNUMX/XNUMX by Hipper

                        Margot – sunk by U-588 23.05.42/XNUMX/XNUMX
                        Empire Energy - lost 05.11.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX (navigational accident)
                        Clunepark - damaged 12.02.41 (survived at least until May 43, as it took part in convoy SC 121)
                        Blairatholl – damaged in collision with J. Backe 27.11.42, sank 28.11.42 (possibly sunk by U-663)
                        Bur – damaged 29.08.42 (navigational accident, dismantled)
                        Anna Mazaraki – died 24.05.42/XNUMX/XNUMX (navigational accident, Sable Island)
                        Volturno - sunk 23.06.43 by aircraft
                        Varangberg – sunk by U-123 26.09.41/XNUMX/XNUMX
                        Lornaston – damaged 12.02.41/275/08.03.45, sunk by U-XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
                        Polyktor sunk by U-266 06.02.43/XNUMX/XNUMX
                        Kalliopi sunk by U-402 07.02.43/XNUMX/XNUMX
                      2. 0
                        19 February 2025 18: 32
                        Thank you very much, I will know!
                      3. +1
                        19 February 2025 18: 38
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Thank you very much, I will know!

                        Andrey, in fact, all losses of cargo tonnage are listed down to the last ton, you just need to dig around...
                        It is clear that there are questions. For example, the same Blairatholl...
                        According to British data, it lost its speed due to a collision and sank with its entire crew; according to German data (BdU), it was U-663 that sank.
                      4. 0
                        19 February 2025 19: 17
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Andrey, in fact, all losses of cargo tonnage are listed down to the last ton, you just need to dig around...

                        Maxim, the problem is that you need to dig into foreign-language literature. And I'm bad at that. In Russian-language literature... You know it yourself. By the way, since we're talking about it - please tell me how many ships and of what tonnage did the "Admiral Graf Spee" destroy?
                      5. +1
                        19 February 2025 20: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In the Russian language...

                        It is mostly translated... and as a rule "pop": highly specialized ones are not in great demand.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        By the way, since we're talking about this - please tell me how many ships and of what tonnage did the "Admiral Graf Spee" destroy?

                        Clement (5051 BRT) – 30.09
                        Newton Beach (4651 BRT) – 05.10
                        Ashlea (4222 BRT) – 07.10
                        Huntsman (8196 BRT) – 10.10
                        Trevanion (5291 BRT) – 22.10
                        Africa Shell (706 BRT) – 14.11/XNUMX
                        Doric Star (10086 BRT) – 02.12
                        Tairoa (7983 BRT) – 03.12
                        Streonshalh (3895 BRT) – 07.12
                        Total: 9 vessels (50089 GRT)
                      6. 0
                        20 February 2025 08: 48
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        It is mostly translated... and usually "pop"

                        Yes. I was analyzing our sources on pocket battleships here - the description of the battle at La Plata was especially amusing. Worthy of a separate article:)))
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Total: 9 vessels (50089 GRT)

                        Thank you very much. Because when reading our sources it turns out that there were from 9 to 11 of them.
                      7. 0
                        20 February 2025 18: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Because when reading our sources it turns out that there were between 9 and 11 of them.

                        There is such a thing ...
                        Sometimes it seems to me that detained and released neutrals are added here.
      2. +1
        18 February 2025 19: 42
        Andrey, good afternoon. How is success measured? Globally? In the economic damage caused. If you collect all the surface raiders of WWI and WWII, what is their commercial value? And the value of sunken ships together with cargo? I assume the comparison will be STRONGLY not in favor of the raiders, even without taking into account the conversions from civilian ships. Can you imagine the cost of one cargo and one first-class raider? And the cost of a trained crew that sank along with the raider? And if you also put the same Bismarck (Scharnohorst and all the pickpockets like it) on the balance sheet of the raiders? Even no increased insurance will cover this gap in the cost between spent/received….
        1. +2
          19 February 2025 09: 29
          Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
          And the cost of the sunken ships together with the cargo? I assume the comparison will be STRONGLY not in favor of the raiders, even without taking into account the conversions from civilian ships.

          So, you do the math. In WWII, by the way, the numbers are roughly like this
          For every ton of displacement of auxiliary cruisers lost in battle, there were 1 GRT of sunk and captured tonnage, while for pocket battleships it was 9,13 GRT. But a register ton is not a displacement, it is a cargo that a ship can take. Displacement is 13,88-1,6 times greater (again, approximately). This means that for every ton of a lost VKR, there were at least 2 tons of civilian ships destroyed by it, while for pocket battleships it was 1 tons.
          That is, even these figures already hint that raiding is economically feasible. But you missed the most important point - merchant ships are valuable not in themselves, but for the cargo they carry.
          1. 0
            19 February 2025 11: 07
            If we take the net weight of steel, then yes, they probably sank more. If we take the infrastructure and labor costs that a raider must acquire during construction, it is doubtful. Optics, shells, armor, radar - a combat ship cannot be considered net weight in terms of its filling. There will be X-infinity in the cost of the attachments. And what about the cargo in the cargo? Tanks? Aircraft? Machine tools? Optics? Right in every cargo? Oh well. Fuel and food, light industry goods. Yes, there were probably very valuable cargoes. But not in every transport ship - I'd have to go to hell to find out that such valuable cargo was sunk by surface raiders. I assume nothing. Because everything valuable went as part of convoys, and this is the work of boats, not individual surface hunters...
            1. +2
              19 February 2025 12: 02
              Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
              Optics, shells, armor, radar - a combat ship's filling cannot be considered pure weight.

              Of course, it is impossible. But here is a simple example - pocket battleships cost about 80-90 million marks, that is, 7,2 thousand marks per ton of standard displacement. Wilhelm Gustloff cost about 1000 marks per register ton. But it was still a liner, let's assume that a regular transport cost half as much - 500 marks per register ton. Accordingly, the sinking of the Graf Spee has been practically repulsed by the tonnage of the ships it sank (7,2 thousand marks per ton versus 6,9 thousand marks for 13 plus register tons of ships destroyed by pickpockets). Their cargo is already pure profit:)))
              Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
              Because everything valuable went in convoys

              And the German heavy cruisers actually destroyed two convoys.
              1. 0
                19 February 2025 16: 19
                Yes, your arguments are ironclad. Liberty cost about two million, at the rate of 1 to 2,5 it turns out to be about 500 marks per ton. The cost of the cargo is supposedly "in profit". But you forgot about the crew, the port infrastructure, the strategic loss from the loss of several transports and, for example, a pickpocket or... Bismarck? In general, your theory is viable, according to the evidence, but oh-so-very subtle... Otherwise, the artist would not have driven them into the ports.
                1. +2
                  19 February 2025 18: 12
                  Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
                  But they forgot about the crew, the port infrastructure, the strategic loss from the loss of several transports and, for example, a pickpocket or... Bismarck?

                  Well, why not? I haven't forgotten. I'll give some figures in the next article, let me not anticipate them. hi
                2. +1
                  19 February 2025 18: 31
                  Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
                  Otherwise, the artist would not have driven them into the ports.

                  The artist drove the heavy ships into ports for slightly different reasons... :)
          2. 0
            19 February 2025 11: 10
            And by the way, not all pickpockets were successful in hunting either... and in ideal conditions. If you divide it between three - zilch
          3. 0
            19 February 2025 11: 16
            The time of economically profitable raiders ended with the decline of the gold galleons that the Anglo-Saxons gutted. More or less successful results of individual "communication interrupters" are blurred in the overall indicator spent/received...
            1. +1
              19 February 2025 12: 03
              Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
              The more or less successful results of individual “communication interrupters” are blurred in the overall spent/received indicator…

              Apparently, for you this is a matter of faith, not knowledge.
            2. +2
              19 February 2025 18: 48
              Quote: Smirnov_Andrey
              The time of the profitable raiders ended with the decline of the gold galleons that the Anglo-Saxons gutted.

              During the Second World War, the economy did not quite rule: the schedule and regularity of deliveries were paramount. The raider's entry into the forward bases simply put the British in an awkward position. For example, when on May 21, "Bismarck" and "Eugen" were discovered in Kors-fjord, Tovey faced the question of what to do with the 11 convoys that could directly end up in the operational zone (to turn back or not) and what to do with the newly formed convoys...
              So, it's not that simple.
  6. +5
    18 February 2025 08: 51
    Thank you very much, Andrey, for continuing!
    Of course, with the advent of aviation, raiding in closed seas (Black, Mediterranean, Red) and semi-open seas (Japanese, Yellow, South China) became practically impossible. And the presence of carrier-based aviation and its growth during the Second World War greatly reduced the areas of possible raiding. But nevertheless, raiders fought, inflicted damage on the enemy and left their mark on history.
    I myself have not read Podgorny, but from your words, what he wrote looks sound and allows us to discuss the strategy, tactics and technical support of raiding.
    First of all, you need to decide on a strategy:
    - raiders are intended for operations on the enemy's OCEAN communications (conditionally Great Britain) with the aim of disrupting shipping and diverting naval forces to create a system of convoys and search groups to destroy the raiders;
    - raiders are NOT INTENDED for naval battles with enemy heavy cruisers;
    - returning to the Metropolis is not necessary for the raider.
    This allows us to immediately determine the cruising range, autonomy and requirements for the protection of the raider, as well as the provision of its activities.
    Tactical requirements are determined by the raider's methods of combat:
    - immobilization of pursued ships with the main caliber at the maximum possible distance;
    - the ability to pursue the maximum possible number of targets in succession at full speed;
    - when pursuing enemy cruisers, maintain a distance that excludes massive targeted fire from the enemy.
    This allows you to determine the required speed and weapons of the raider.
    Based on the above requirements, we will have a preliminary ship based on a liner of 20-25 thousand tons, with a continuous cruising speed of at least 30 knots, with a cruising range of 15-20 thousand miles at 15-18 knots, armed with guns of at least 8", as well as torpedoes and means of delivering them to targets without a course.
    1. +5
      18 February 2025 09: 16
      Greetings, dear Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Based on the above requirements, we will have a preliminary ship based on a liner of 20-25 thousand tons, with a continuous cruising speed of at least 30 knots, with a cruising range of 15-20 thousand miles at 15-18 knots, armed with guns of at least 8", as well as torpedoes and means of delivering them to targets without a course.

      A very interesting look at the raider's performance characteristics, thank you!
      1. +2
        18 February 2025 10: 28
        I am glad to convey my thoughts on this topic you raised.
        Didn't say anything about booking:
        - carapace deck + light side protection from 6" high-explosive shells. The main thing is to maintain high speed in battle (there is a chance to break away from cruisers in bad weather).
        Regarding torpedoes:
        - it is necessary to provide at least two seaworthy torpedo boats on board with two torpedoes each, this will free up the maneuvering of the raider itself during the destruction of the convoy.
        Such large raiders can be built under the guise of cargo-passenger, and accordingly, there is no need to bother with contractual restrictions. But the embedded elements and reinforcements for weapons should be installed at the construction stage. In this regard, the question arises: how to place the guns? Deck shield installations or towers?
        1. +2
          18 February 2025 11: 50
          Question: How to place the guns? Deck shield mounts or turrets?


          Oh, come on - what towers are there on an auxiliary cruiser!
          Why, for what purpose?
          To protect against enemy shells?

          Given their weight and size, where and how to store them while the raider is posing as a peaceful transport? How to install and adjust them with the help of a team?
          Etc.

          Of course, deck or "casemate" ones.
          Without options.


          P.S.
          Well, the raiders operating against the British had a hard time - the complete destruction of all the growth...

          Even Bismarck, which went out to sea to work as a raider, was annihilated.

          Although Scharnhorst (2) and Gneisenau (2) raided under the command of the same admiral. It seems they worked successfully.
          These are like "Washingtonians" on the contrary - their weapons are weak, but their defense is powerful.
          1. +1
            18 February 2025 12: 28
            Thank you for the informative answer, Miner (forgive me, the phone doesn't display names).
            Regarding the turrets. Installing the turrets on ready-made foundations is a matter of weeks. Before that, they can be in the arsenal or in coastal positions. With all other things, the firing angles and rate of fire are higher for turret eight-inch guns. Installation should be carried out in the pre-war period at shipyards before shipping. Artillerymen - from coastal positions, with operational experience. And most importantly - a large raider is not an auxiliary cruiser, but a full-fledged special-purpose combat ship. And it will not cost little.
            On supplies and repairs. Apart from bunkering, everything else is the crew's responsibility at sea (remote base). Spare parts and consumables for diesel engines - with you (that's why the liner has a medium-sized tonnage).
            Bismarck and Tirpitz were intended to play the role of the center of stability of the raider unit, like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in 1914.
            As for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau model 1939, it is unclear how their powerful armor belt helped them against transports, destroyers and aircraft carriers? Perhaps it slowed them down? And the cruising range of these ships was frankly insufficient. And of course, the capricious power plant was also a potential threat to their ocean raids.
            1. +2
              18 February 2025 18: 53
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Bismarck and Tirpitz were intended to play the role of the center of stability of the raider unit.

              According to the plans of the operations planners - yes...

              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              As for Scharnhorst and Gneisenau model 1939, it is unclear how their powerful armor belt helped them against transports, destroyers and aircraft carriers?

              No way, because they were used as raiders, not designed for that...

              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              And the cruising range of these ships was frankly insufficient.
              1. 0
                18 February 2025 19: 51
                Greetings, Maxim!
                I don't understand the idea of ​​Scharnhorst-type battleships at all. The armor is sufficient for a line battle, but the artillery is frankly weak. As battlecruisers, they are slow and very voracious. And with Bismarck and Tirpitz (I stubbornly consider them battlecruisers - competitors of Hood and Renown) there are complete misunderstandings. Plus problems with the power plants, which are clearly not suitable for the purpose of raiders.
                1. +3
                  18 February 2025 20: 04
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  I don't understand the concept of Scharnhorst-class battleships at all.

                  They were built as a counterweight to the Dunkirks. The main gun was a political compromise, against the background of the preparation of the treaty with Britain: the "artist" did not allow the 380 mm, Krupp did not allow the 330 mm (in the foreseeable future, because the gun had to be sawed from scratch), the only thing left was to somehow "force" the 283 mm.

                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Like battlecruisers, they are slow-moving and extremely voracious.
                  Well, they are not battlecruisers. :)

                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  And with Bismarck and Tirpitz (I stubbornly consider them to be battlecruisers - competitors of Hood and Renown) there are complete misunderstandings.

                  Actually, they are competitors of "Richelieu", if anything... :)
                  The British even allowed the Germans to build a third "Bismarck" despite the chosen displacement quota, if they agreed to a 14" caliber, but the Germans, looking back at the French, did not agree... And then Plan Z came along. :)

                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Plus problems with the power plants, which are clearly not suitable for the purpose of the raiders.

                  So both of them, four of them, were not built as raiders... they were used - yes.
            2. 0
              19 February 2025 12: 29
              I welcome you, Victor!

              Regarding what you said: I could be wrong, but it seemed to me that the auxiliary cruiser was created (modified along the way) as a merchant ship, with an eye to raiding in the event of war.

              For this purpose (in addition to its characteristics as a ship itself), it was supposed to accommodate artillery guns, which actually could (should?) have been stored on board.

              Well, they lie in the hold, greased. In case of receiving a report from the naval headquarters, op - the guns are installed by the team in places prepared in advance, even during construction (or modernization), sights are installed, the shells are raised closer and...
              .. and that’s it – the raider is ready to carry out the assigned task – causing damage to enemy maritime trade.

              That's why it seemed to me that how can you carry TOWERS with you?
              And it is completely impossible to install it by the team!

              Well, as you say, that the weapons are lying and waiting for their time not on board the ship, but in the port... Well, yes. It looks different.

              But here we were talking about German raiders, who, as we know, operated in the waters of the Southern Hemisphere - what kind of bases could the German fleet have had there? Even the existing base in China, and that, the winner of Cradock, was forced to abandon...

              And anyway, put turrets on an auxiliary cruiser? I don't think this has ever happened in history.

              And yes, you are right - the advantages of placing guns in turrets are well known.
              True, they are not always justified :-)

              Well, an auxiliary cruiser is still, in appearance, a purely "merchant ship", which to a large extent takes advantage of the fact that it is indistinguishable from a merchant ship. Until it gets close and starts shooting.

              "Sydney" (2) will not let you lie - "Cormoran" too, pretended to be a merchant. And if it had gun turrets...

              P.S.
              In general, it seems that the "Washington" cruisers were not created with the destruction of the enemy's maritime trade as their main goal.

              And as full-fledged combat ships.
              Who were forced to pay with the loss of some of their qualities in order to comply with the terms of the Treaty.

              The same British battleships with 356mm "small-bore" guns turned out to be such only because of the imposed treaty restrictions, and not because they were created for other tasks.
        2. +2
          18 February 2025 18: 48
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          light side protection against 6" high explosive shells

          If we take the near limit of 50 cables, then according to German armor shooting data Wh it should be no less than 30...40 mm
          1. 0
            18 February 2025 19: 45
            If we take the nearest limit of 50 cables, then according to the German armor shots Wh it should be no less than 30...40 mm

            Excellent cuirass (screen) for removing the tips of 6 - 8 inch projectiles!
      2. 0
        20 February 2025 16: 14
        The best raider is the Japanese Zuiho. Cheap, efficient, and can be built before the tonnage restrictions are lifted.
    2. +4
      18 February 2025 11: 45
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Based on the above requirements, we will have a preliminary ship based on a liner of 20-25 thousand tons, with a continuous cruising speed of at least 30 knots, with a cruising range of 15-20 thousand miles at 15-18 knots, armed with guns of at least 8", as well as torpedoes and means of delivering them to targets without a course.

      Everything would be fine if not for one thing. Even two: fuel consumption and reliability of the power plant without regular maintenance and repairs in the base conditions.
      Remember the raid of the "Admiral Spee": "from refueling to refueling". How many supply ships would such a liner-raider require?
      And yes, if my memory serves me right, from WWI experience, raiders from liners didn't really show themselves - gluttonous and unreliable. And in WWII, such specially built ships will still be too noticeable. The same "Komet" looks like another tramp from the air, of which there are dozens, and in camouflage it can even pass for one of its own up close. And a raider will be identified practically from the first sighting from the air - silhouette and size.
      1. -1
        18 February 2025 12: 37
        There is a reason for everything. But the raider himself must alternate active actions with bunkering and maintenance.
        As for gluttony - I disagree! Regarding the transported weapons and cruising range - liners are champions in efficiency. Plus low-speed diesel engines, capable of running on 90% fuel oil with 10% diesel fuel.
        What I agree with is that such a raider will cost MORE than a heavy cruiser. In this regard, the question of its effectiveness is most acute.
        1. +4
          18 February 2025 18: 38
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Plus low-speed diesel engines capable of running on 90% fuel oil with 10% diesel fuel.

          This is a cruising engine. What about the full-speed engines? If boilers, then for an emergency acceleration you will have to either keep some of them under steam (goodbye efficiency), or lose hours raising steam (which is not good when a raider is detected by the onboard hydrofoil of some enemy cruiser).
          The range of the cruise in "peaceful" and "military" waters was demonstrated by the large cruiser "Diana", which was estimated to lack coal to Vladivostok (a meeting with the enemy is likely, the boilers need to be kept steaming), but it was enough to Saigon (there is no enemy, most of the boilers are cold).
    3. +2
      18 February 2025 18: 44
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Of course, with the advent of aviation, raiding in closed seas (Black, Mediterranean, Red) and semi-open seas (Japanese, Yellow, South China) became practically impossible.

      This didn't particularly bother Unit K; it was only mown down by an unsuccessful approach to a minefield...
      1. +1
        18 February 2025 19: 24
        This didn't particularly bother Unit K; it was only mown down by an unsuccessful approach to a minefield...

        Autumn 1941 - all dive bombers are busy on the Eastern Front. As soon as the Germans concentrated their forces against the naval groups, the British quickly got worse, so they had to curtail operations completely or partially.
  7. +1
    18 February 2025 09: 21
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing the series of articles.
    The British "Washingtons" of the "Kent" type, despite, let's say, a traditional, if not archaic, power plant, in their majority exceeded the contract 31,5 knots per knot and could travel over 14 miles at 10 knots, and over 000 miles at 12 knots. The famous German "Emden" had, by the way, a cruising range of about 13 miles at 000 knots.

    In this matter, in my opinion, it is necessary to separate the time of ship construction and the fuel used. For the cruiser "Emden", too high a speed was not profitable, as it required a large consumption of coal, which ultimately affected the cruising range. In addition, to replenish coal reserves, an area with islands and "quiet" harbors is required. At the same time, it should be located not far from trade routes. All this creates problems for "coal" raiders and ultimately leads to their destruction.
    Of course, it was not the guns alone that achieved this success. Von Spee's correct maneuvering worked here, and Lady Luck turned to face him, allowing him to knock out the bow turret of the 234-mm gun of the English flagship at the beginning of the battle.

    Perhaps yes, luck played a significant role, and the mechanic of the battleship "Canopus" also played a role. He stated that the battleships' machines needed serious repairs, although in fact only the seals on the cylinder rods needed to be replaced. As it turned out later, "Canopus" could reach speeds of up to 16 knots. So luck for some becomes misfortune for others.
  8. +2
    18 February 2025 10: 24
    The armor seemed to help Sydney a lot in the battle with Emden. After all, the Germans shot more accurately at first. But oh well, Sydney is not a raider, so it is allowed)). You can think of some use for the ship, but no country, except Germany, built heavy cruisers as raiders, and in the end they did not fight as raiders. But in their real use, the armor would have come in handy.
  9. +3
    18 February 2025 13: 08
    The problems of the British in fighting raiders in WWI came not from technology, but from admirals. Credock at Coronel got into a fight against an obviously stronger enemy, with a completely understandable result. Troubridge, on the contrary, did not get involved with the Goeben, although he had quite comparable forces. At the Falklands, everything is clear, the Germans had no chance, except one - to calmly sail past the islands, somewhere in the direction of Europe.
    I don't see any logical connection between the PVM and the Washington cruisers of WWII, in light of the fight against enemy communications, since this was done by completely different ships.
    1. +1
      18 February 2025 17: 52
      Quote: TermNachTER
      I don't see any logical connection between the PVM and the Washington cruisers of WWII, in light of the fight on enemy communications

      Yes, I never doubted you:))))
      Quote: TermNachTER
      because this was done by completely different ships.

      Of course. Can there be a logical connection in the tasks of the battleships of the sailing fleet and the first armored steam battleships, or, to put it even higher, squadron battleships? After all, these are completely different ships. And the fact that they were all intended to gain supremacy at sea in an artillery battle, that the main battle tactics for them were linear, that they, as a rule, surpassed ships of other classes in the power of armament and the number of crews, but, often, were inferior in speed - completeness, are these logical connections? Well, one fiction:))))))
      1. 0
        18 February 2025 18: 14
        At least for me, at least without me. In the PVM there were no ships of a class close to the Washingtonians. And the Washingtonians would never have appeared if not for the treaty. And to draw some parallels is the same as discussing the effect of moonlight on the growth of telegraph poles))) a very fruitful activity.
        To more fully provide a logical basis for the complete absurdity, I suggest starting with the ancient Roman quinqueremes - they were also intended to seize dominance at sea)))
        1. +2
          18 February 2025 18: 55
          Quote: TermNachTER
          There were no ships in the PVM of a class close to the Washingtons.

          "Hawkins"?
          no, I haven't heard...
          1. +3
            18 February 2025 19: 12
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            "Hawkins"?
            no, I haven't heard...

            Theoretically, yes, since they were laid down in 16-17, but in practice they were late for the war, essentially because they were not needed...
            1. 0
              18 February 2025 19: 15
              I would add "Blucher" to them. It is, of course, larger, but the niche is about the same.
              1. +2
                18 February 2025 19: 18
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                I would add "Blucher" to them. It is, of course, larger, but the niche is about the same.

                The first one, as I understand it?
                It would be interesting if the war were postponed for six months and "Sh" and "G" were replaced by "Seydlitz"... :)
              2. 0
                18 February 2025 19: 38
                "Blucher" - singular, unclear "forgive me, Lord" what.
          2. +1
            18 February 2025 19: 36
            The Hawkins type appeared at the end of the PVM and practically did not participate in combat. It was on the Hawkins base that the Washingtonians appeared.
        2. +1
          18 February 2025 19: 14
          Quote: TermNachTER
          At least for me, at least without me. In the PVM there were no ships of a class close to the Washingtons.

          There were ships close to the cruiser class:))))) And you should first study what a ship class is
          1. +1
            18 February 2025 20: 09
            I started studying ship classes in 1990, at the VMP EGS)))
            1. 0
              19 February 2025 08: 51
              Quote: TermNachTER
              I started studying ship classes

              Then give a classification according to which Washington cruisers were a separate class of warships, Barzo prosch
              1. +1
                19 February 2025 10: 48
                A separate class from what? In different countries, at different times, the classifications were very vague. From a III-class cruiser to a battleship. And there were also "large cruisers" and scouts, and squadron cruisers. Armored, semi-armored, armored deck and auxiliary. Be more specific - what classification exactly do you want to get?
                1. +1
                  19 February 2025 10: 49
                  P.S. Mistake, cruiser of the 3rd rank, in the British fleet.
                2. 0
                  19 February 2025 11: 46
                  As expected, you cannot provide a classification according to which the "Washington" cruisers were a separate class of ships. So there is no point in bragging about having studied something there - you have not mastered the material.
                  1. 0
                    19 February 2025 12: 44
                    Give your classification))) and please include in it, starting with HMS Pegasus and ending with the aircraft carrier "Pyotr Velikiy")))
                    1. 0
                      19 February 2025 18: 11
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Give your classification)))

                      Unlike you, I do not use personal classifications in such matters.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      and please include in it, starting with HMS Pegasus and ending with the aircraft carrier "Pyotr Velikiy")))

                      Elementary. Cruiser:)))))))
                      1. 0
                        19 February 2025 18: 16
                        So 2200 tons and 24 tons are the same thing?))) Bravo - bravo, one can envy))) the ease of thought is extraordinary)))
                      2. 0
                        19 February 2025 19: 18
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So 2200 tons and 24 tons are the same thing?)))

                        This is belonging to one class of ships. Yes. Come to terms with it:))))))
                      3. 0
                        19 February 2025 21: 41
                        Who's arguing?))) A ship of the 4th rank and a ship of the 1st rank are still ships)))
        3. 0
          20 February 2025 22: 13
          American "Brooklyn", built in 1895.
          8×203mm, 10k displacement, 75mm side armor, speed 20 knots (quite fast for 1895).
          1. -1
            20 February 2025 23: 03
            Its armor was even better than you indicate. The Americans creatively reworked the Russian "Admiral Nakhimov".
            1. +1
              21 February 2025 08: 44
              The Americans worked according to French patterns.
              1. 0
                21 February 2025 10: 06
                You could say that. However, for the French it was a theory, and the Admiral Nakhimov had already been sailing for several years by that time.
    2. +1
      18 February 2025 18: 54
      Quote: TermNachTER
      I don't see any logical connection between the PVM and the Washington cruisers of WWII, in light of the fight against enemy communications, since this was done by completely different ships.

      For once in a blue moon I agree with my colleague... hi
      1. 0
        18 February 2025 19: 34
        Truth is born in argument)))
  10. +2
    18 February 2025 14: 38
    There is one more problem.
    A raider is only successful with proper targeting and threat warning.
    In addition to intelligence data, constantly updated information about the situation in the area of ​​operation is necessary for an accurate interception or to avoid unnecessary contact.
    So, over the ocean area where the raider and other means of attack operate, there must be aerial reconnaissance, maintaining constant communication with the raider.
    I can't say what kind of vehicle it is: a towed balloon, a zeppelin or a flying boat, but it is absolutely clear that it must be "far-sighted", withstand the weather conditions in the ocean and not give away the raider itself.
    1. +2
      18 February 2025 17: 57
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      So, over the ocean area where the raider and other means of attack operate, there must be aerial reconnaissance, maintaining constant communication with the raider.

      Yes and no. Of course, a successful raider in WWII is not a lonely loner, but an element of the armed forces system at sea. But generally speaking, the presence of deck aviation at the TCR gave them very decent opportunities to independently search for victims.
      1. 0
        18 February 2025 18: 16
        Who and what information was transmitted to Atlantis, one of the most successful raiders of WWII?
        1. +2
          18 February 2025 19: 13
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Who and what information was transmitted to Atlantis

          Can you read?
          Quote: TermNachTER
          A successful raider in WWII is not a lonely loner, but an element of the system of armed forces at sea.

          Where are the words exclusively about reconnaissance? The actions of the Atlantis were supported by other ships and vessels, for example, it interacted with the Penguin, which refueled the Atlantis with fuel from the tanker Stormstadt, which it had captured. The Atlantis, in turn, refueled German submarines.
        2. +1
          18 February 2025 19: 15
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Who and what information was transmitted to Atlantis, one of the most successful raiders of WWII?

          B-Dienst (Radio Intercept Service) was mandatory on commercial raiders.
          1. 0
            18 February 2025 19: 43
            This is the first time I've heard of such a thing. The Americans had a reconnaissance group on their "task force", and not a permanent one, but one from the "Rochefort team". True, there were cases of sympathy and antipathy. As a rule, the same teams went with some admirals. I've never heard of others. What to do with radio intelligence officers in case of a threat of capture? Put the ballast to your foot and overboard?)
            1. 0
              18 February 2025 19: 45
              Quote: TermNachTER
              What to do with radio reconnaissance in case of a threat of capture? Ballast to the leg and overboard?)

              I can't say... I haven't come across such instructions yet. :)
              1. 0
                18 February 2025 19: 58
                Therefore, I have very strong doubts in this matter. The probability of the raider being destroyed is quite high, as is the fact that some part of the crew will be captured. According to Murphy's Law, this part will include those who should not be captured. The British took interrogations of prisoners very seriously. The radio operator - cipher clerk, from U-33, I forgot his last name, was identified by cross-examination. After which they "squeezed" everything he knew out of him.
                1. 0
                  18 February 2025 20: 04
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Therefore, I have very strong doubts on this issue.

                  As you wish...
  11. -2
    18 February 2025 18: 06
    Having taken up a favorable combat distance for himself, at which the British admiral did not have to worry too much about the enemy's 210 mm shells, he destroyed both German armored cruisers, albeit at the cost of a huge expenditure of ammunition. Only speed could have saved von Spee's ships, but that was something they did not have.


    After this, you don't have to read the Anglo-Saxon chatter. I don't know of a single battle, starting with the "Defeat of the Spanish Armada", where either the British were just plain lucky or they were beaten, but their propaganda claimed otherwise.
    Ready to answer any sneeze from Chelyabinsk!
    1. 0
      18 February 2025 18: 33
      It is difficult to deny the obvious. Against the 210-mm main guns - 305-mm, Spee's cruisers have been underway for almost half a year, Sturdee has two battlecruisers that have undergone their required maintenance.
    2. +1
      18 February 2025 21: 28
      Can you clarify what exactly about the "Anglo-Saxon chatter" you didn't like?
    3. +2
      19 February 2025 12: 26
      Quote: bya965
      I don't know of a single battle since the "Destruction of the Spanish Armada" where either the British were just plain lucky or they were beaten, but their propaganda claimed otherwise.

      That is, we can say that you do not know at all the naval battles that the British fought. In what way were they "stupidly lucky" at Aboukir and Trafalgar? Or let's take the era of steam and armor - what was their luck in the Battle of Heligoland? In the Battle of Dogger Bank? At the Falklands? Or maybe in your universe the British lost these battles?:))))
      World War II? What was the British luck in the second battle in the Gulf of Sirte, when 4 light cruisers drove away an Italian battleship and 2 heavy cruisers from a convoy? At Cape Matapan?
      Quote: bya965
      Ready to answer any sneeze from Chelyabinsk!

      Bardzo is easier:))))
      1. 0
        19 February 2025 17: 42
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        How were they "stupidly lucky" with Abukir and Trafalgar?


        Despite the fact that many British ships were seriously damaged, the British losses were incomparable with the French. According to various estimates, Admiral de Brueys' fleet lost between 3000 and 5000 men killed and wounded. Against this background, the British losses look insignificant: just over 200 killed and about 700 wounded. The defeat of the French fleet at Aboukir had a monstrous effect on Europe. For Britain, it became one of the greatest triumphs in its naval history.

        You believe it, I don't.
        1. +2
          19 February 2025 18: 20
          Quote: bya965
          You believe it, I don't.

          Questions of faith are sacred to me, but your religious views do not interest me at all. I have given you battles in which the English were neither lucky nor defeated. Are there any objections to the substance of the question?
          1. -2
            20 February 2025 05: 50
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Questions of faith are sacred to me, but your religious views are of no concern to me.

            As a Soviet person, I was brought up that any faith is a delusion. There is no criterion of truth, as in natural sciences it is an experiment.

            Or am I back to that battle of armor and steam.

            Here is a detailed account of Horatio Nelson's mistakes
            By May 27, 1798, Nelson had managed to repair, gather his battleships together, and on June 7, he met with Thomas Troubridge's reinforcement of 11 battleships. The rear admiral now had a fairly significant force: he had 14 battleships, the brig "Mutin" - and not a single frigate. Meanwhile, in the XNUMXth century, frigates were the eyes and ears of the fleet: frigate patrols were sent out in all directions for reconnaissance and surveillance, and thanks to them, the squadron commander had full control of the situation at sea. Nelson had no frigates, that is, his squadron was blind and deaf. Its further actions resembled a blind boxer in the ring.

            https://homsk.com/begemot/srazhenie-pri-abukire-blizhnevostochnaya-pobeda-nelsona
            1. 0
              20 February 2025 08: 32
              About Trafalgar, here in detail
              The allies did not use the chances that gave them the opportunity to inflict serious damage on the enemy. Thus, due to the weak wind, the English ships entered the battle with a large time interval, which gave the allies the opportunity to attack the enemy ships separately. But indecisiveness and low cohesion did not allow the allies to use this opportunity. Moreover, the vanguard of the allies under the command of Admiral Pierre Dumanoir on the vanguard flagship Formidable broke away from the central group, and, ignoring Villeneuve's signals, continued to go to Cadiz. Dumanoir took nine ships of the vanguard with him and one ship from the central group that had joined the vanguard. As a result, at the most decisive moment, the admiral did not provide assistance to the main forces, leaving the scene of battle instead of continuing to fight.


              https://topwar.ru/84847-trafalgarskiy-razgrom.html
            2. +2
              20 February 2025 08: 39
              Quote: bya965
              As a Soviet person, I was brought up to believe that any faith is a delusion.

              Why do you refer to your Soviet past? Soviet people used dialectical materialism in their understanding of history, that is, they were able to analyze the system and its components in their understandable interconnections. Soviet people are, first and foremost, systems people, capable of arranging the subjective and incomplete data available to them into a coherent picture of historical events.
              And what about you?
              You write
              Quote: bya965
              I don't know of a single battle since the "Destruction of the Spanish Armada" where either the British were just plain lucky or they were beaten, but their propaganda claimed otherwise.

              You write about "luck", about "beats", about "propaganda". And when you are asked to confirm your theses, what do you do?
              Quote: bya965
              Here is a detailed account of Horatio Nelson's mistakes

              Mistakes. That is, you cannot confirm anything about "luck" and "bits" and are trying to get off topic by switching to British mistakes. Forgive me, but I am a Soviet person. And this trick won't work with me.
              First. Of course, the English made mistakes. And many of them. This is absolutely normal, "only he who does nothing makes no mistakes" (c). However, their victory at Aboukir was not a result of luck.
              Second, please learn to read your own links. You write
              Quote: bya965
              Here is a detailed account of Horatio Nelson's mistakes

              And what mistakes did Nelson make in your reference?
              The extreme individualism of the English and the frigate captains' penchant for acquisitiveness left Nelson's squadron without eyes and ears, made it possible for the French to land in Egypt and almost thwarted the execution of the main combat mission.

              How did it happen that the frigate commanders did this?
              and soon the storm completely scattered the English ships. Instead of hurrying to their commander, the captains began hunting the Spanish ships, and only the news of the French successes in Malta made them tear themselves away from this exciting activity.

              That is, a storm occurred (for which Nelson was not to blame), the frigates were left to their own devices (for which Nelson was also not to blame) and their commanders made inadequate decisions aimed at personal enrichment (for which Nelson had nothing to do with). An even more serious mistake was the decisions of Captain Foote, who managed to find out where the French were but could not find Nelson.
              And Nelson, in conditions of information deficiency and lacking resources, searches for the French, does not find them, and carries out a very risky and unusual measure - he divides his battle fleet, sending battleships to work as scouts. And this risk was crowned with success
              At 14 p.m. the 74-gun Zilus spotted the French fleet standing in the Aboukir roadstead.

              So what mistakes did Nelson make? Didn't guess right away where the French would go? :)))) Well, he guessed right, sending the "Mutin" to Alexandria, only he overestimated the speed of the French fleet, it arrived there later.
              In general, the British commanders did make a number of mistakes, but this does not apply to Nelson. He was the one who managed to find the right solution in a difficult situation. And you - could not understand who was guilty of the British mistakes, could not understand the short text of your own link. So please do not insult the Soviet past
              1. 0
                20 February 2025 12: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Why do you refer to your Soviet past? Soviet people used dialectical materialism in their understanding of history, that is, they were able to analyze the system and its components in understandable interconnections

                Philosophy is not a natural science discipline. It is somewhat reminiscent of religion. In any case, all my philosopher friends who had previously spoken about Marxism-Lennism suddenly became very religious. To pull the wool over people's eyes, since there is no criterion of truth, no experiment.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                That is, a storm occurred (for which Nelson was not to blame), the frigates were left to their own devices (for which Nelson was also not to blame) and their commanders made inadequate decisions aimed at personal enrichment (for which Nelson had nothing to do with). An even more serious mistake was the decisions of Captain Foote, who managed to find out where the French were but could not find Nelson.

                I wrote about how the British were lucky. You write to me that Nelson successfully extricated himself from the situation into which the British had driven themselves.

                We each have our own opinion. Therefore, I wish you further success in the historical field. But I advise you to pay more attention to the natural sciences, history is not included in them. hi drinks
                1. +2
                  20 February 2025 12: 53
                  Quote: bya965
                  Philosophy is not a natural science discipline.

                  And dialectical materialism as a form of knowledge was used, receiving the name historical materialism.
                  Quote: bya965
                  I wrote about how the British were lucky. You write to me that Nelson successfully extricated himself from the situation into which the British had driven themselves.

                  So where is the luck here? Nelson could not stop the storm. He could not cancel the commanders' right to a part of the property of the ships they captured. He made a clever and competent, albeit risky, decision, and it paid off. But the most important thing is that the risk here occurred even before the battle, at the stage of reconnaissance of the enemy. We are still talking about the battle itself.
                  Quote: bya965
                  We each have our own opinion.

                  It's as usual:))) All the best!
      2. -1
        19 February 2025 17: 46
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        at Dogger Bank?

        Which 1781 or 1915?
        1. +2
          19 February 2025 18: 21
          Quote: bya965
          Which 1781 or 1915?

          The answer to this question is contained in my comment.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Or take the age of steam and armour - what was their luck in the Battle of Heligoland? In the Battle of Dogger Bank?

          In your opinion, 1781 is the era of armor and steam?
      3. -1
        19 February 2025 17: 54
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Near the Falklands?

        I myself read the news from there, but as the international review wrote at the time, English commandos were using a super helmet to direct super-duper I don’t know what, but through satellites, everyone was screwed.

        Result:
        Losses Great Britain
        258 people, 2 frigates, 2 destroyers, 1 container ship, 1 landing ship, 1 landing craft

        Argentina losses
        649 people, 1 cruiser, 1 submarine, 1 patrol boat, 4 transport ships, 1 fishing trawler

        But in reality Argentina could easily win, because the British had everything, as I wrote, only for show. These are small deer antlers. Very healthy, a solid vitamin.
        1. +2
          19 February 2025 18: 24
          Quote: bya965
          I myself read the news from there, but as the international review wrote at the time, the English commandos

          They write to you about the battle of the Falklands, where Spee got caught by Sturdee and he crushed ShiG with his battlecruisers:)))) But I wrote to the Russians in plain language
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Or take the era of steam and armor- What was their luck in the Battle of Heligoland? In the Battle of Dogger Bank? At the Falklands?

          Do you even understand what they are writing to you? What era do you belong to? armor in 1982, when the Falklands conflict you mentioned took place?
          Maybe before you start answering "every sneeze from Chelyabinsk", you should at least learn the basics first?
      4. -2
        19 February 2025 18: 12
        Here, when Ushakov answers the words of a high-ranking official, he says everything he thinks about Horatio Nelson.
        Although I don't like believers very much, Ushakov is not only the greatest naval commander, he is also just a smart person. I'll drink a glass to him now. If all Orthodox Christians were like that, then on this basis I would truly believe that something exists. I wouldn't suggest Suvorov, a hero, smart, the greatest, but not very good as a person. He jumped on a chair
        https://sport.rambler.ru/other/40272126-zachem-feldmarshal-aleksandr-suvorov-prygal-cherez-stulya/

        https://rutube.ru/video/c4254c474653a94b7d6aa8c7da107dac/
  12. +6
    18 February 2025 18: 39
    Andrey, to be honest, I didn’t understand the idea of ​​this article...
    Continuing the discussions around Podgorny’s article looks like trying to fit an owl onto a globe.
    These two armored cruisers were the best armored, largest, and most powerful ships of all the purpose-built Kaiser's Corsairs.

    Armored cruisers were never "specially built corsairs": how they were supposed to operate was shown by the 1st reconnaissance group at Jutland.

    The logic of your further reasoning is not entirely clear to me: Are you trying to understand whether it was possible to construct a hypothetical cruiser-raider within the framework of the Washington agreements?
    Why break into an open door? These are British "counties": a specially built counter-raider will also perform raider functions quite well, the performance characteristics will allow it.

    The British "Washington" class "Kent", despite, let's say, a traditional, if not archaic, power plant, in their majority exceeded the contractual 31,5 knots.

    The British got the lines right: during testing, only the Cumberland significantly (and how significantly - by 4000 hp) exceeded the contract 80 kilohorses, the rest showed 80-82 thousand hp.

    The famous German Emden, by the way, had a cruising range of about 3 miles at 760 knots.
    And what do you want from a squadron cruiser whose purpose is to drive away enemy "torpedobots" from a column of "Linienschiffs" somewhere near Skagerrak.

    But even in a night battle, the eight-inch guns did not turn into pumpkins, remaining quite effective: let us recall the defeat inflicted by the Japanese cruisers at Savo Island.

    If it weren't for the "long lances" the fight would have been much more "interesting" for the Japanese...
    As for the "pumpkin" - remember what was the starting point for the design of "Des Moines". ;)

    Analyzing certain naval battles, we see that most hits fall on parts of the ship, damage to which does not pose a great threat to it.

    Theoretically, a hit to the Bismarck's bow did not pose any threat to the ship, but in practice, it can be said that it was because of it that she perished...

    We must not forget one important point in statistics
    German special purpose raiders
    . Not one of the 8 cruisers that entered British ocean communications returned home. All of them perished for one reason or another.

    Once again: German warships were not built as specialized raiders (like their descendants in the Kriegsmarine), they were used in this way to "sell themselves at a higher price".

    If a country builds fast but weakly armored ships with heavy 203mm artillery for a cruiser war, say against England, then the answer will be the creation of the same cruiser-hunters - not more powerful, but equivalent, but in significantly greater numbers.

    A spherical horse in a vacuum without taking into account the state of the economy... :)
    1. +2
      18 February 2025 19: 05
      Good evening!
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Continuing the discussions around Podgorny’s article looks like trying to fit an owl onto a globe.

      I do not think so.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Armored cruisers were never "specially built corsairs": how they were supposed to operate was shown by the 1st reconnaissance group at Jutland.

      I regret that I did not specify the definition, it seemed obvious to me. It means that the communications were operated by cruisers of special construction, that is, originally built as combat ships (but not necessarily built for raiding) and auxiliary cruisers, converted from civilian ships.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The logic of your further reasoning is not entirely clear to me: Are you trying to understand whether it was possible to construct a hypothetical cruiser-raider within the framework of the Washington agreements?

      No, the answer to this question is obvious. The purpose of the series is to speculate about the role that cruisers could play in the fight for communications in WWII and to determine how optimal the first "Washingtonians" were in it.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      And what do you want from a squadron cruiser whose purpose is to drive away enemy "torpedobots" from a column of "Linienschiffs" somewhere near Skagerrak.

      Am I making any claims against him? I am merely stating the fact that Emden successfully pirated in the ocean, having a shorter cruising range than the Washingtonians.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      If it weren't for the "long lances" the fight would have been much more "interesting" for the Japanese...

      Yes, and they did some damage there with their main caliber.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Theoretically, a hit to the Bismarck's bow did not pose any threat to the ship, but in practice, it can be said that it was because of it that she perished...

      In practice, he died due to his inability to withstand the attacks of carrier-based aircraft, which inflicted decisive damage on him, handing him over to two very angry British battleships in a state where he could not even stay on course.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Once again: German warships were not built as specialized raiders.

      Nobody argues with this.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      they were used in this way to "sell themselves at a higher price."

      They were used for cruising operations and thus showed which performance characteristics were important for these operations and which were not, which were sufficient and which could be sacrificed when creating a cruiser for fighting on communications.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      A spherical horse in a vacuum without taking into account the state of the economy... :)

      Quite the opposite - taking into account the economy. And without a vacuum
      1. 0
        18 February 2025 19: 28
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The purpose of the series is to speculate about the role that cruisers could have played in the fight for communications in WWII and to determine how optimal the first "Washingtonians" were in it.

        Thanks for the clarification...
      2. 0
        19 February 2025 06: 46
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In practice, he died due to his inability to withstand the attacks of carrier-based aircraft, which inflicted decisive damage on him, handing him over to two very angry British battleships in a state where he could not even stay on course.

        Andy hi , the hit on the "Bismarck" was insignificant to it, as a BATTLESHIP. But as a RAIDER, it caused damage that affected the execution of the task, which was canceled. All subsequent events were only a consequence. No one argues that aviation delivered the key blow, but would it have happened without that hit? It's all from the category of "if only, if only" smile
        Therefore, the conclusion was that the "golden" was the hit of the "PoU" in the nose of the "Bismarck", which led to the loss of fuel and an unmasking trail of the same fuel, which led to the cancellation of the operation and subsequent events.
        If it had been somewhere in the North Sea in a battle with an English battleship(s), it would have been a piece of cake, but in the middle of nowhere, when range (fuel) and relative (as far as possible for a specially built combat ship, not a cruiser) stealth are important, this hit became critical.
        With y, hi
        1. 0
          19 February 2025 08: 49
          Quote: Rurikovich
          the hit on the Bismarck was insignificant to it as a BATTLESHIP. But as a RAIDER, it caused damage that affected the mission, which was cancelled

          This is undoubtedly true.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          All subsequent events were only a consequence. No one disputes that aviation delivered the key blow, but would it have happened without that hit?

          Dear namesake, what was the reason for the hit on the Bismarck? Its interception by a British battleship and battlecruiser. So, maybe this fact led to the death of the battleship? And what was the reason for the interception? The detection of German ships? So can this be considered the reason for the death of the Bismarck? Or can we go to the roots and consider the fact of the laying of the Prince of Wales the reason for the death of the Bismarck, because if the battleship had not been built, it would not have been able to damage the Bismarck? But these are not the roots either, if there was no steel, the battleship would not have been built, if there were no factories for its production, there would be no steel. So, one can gradually look for the reasons for the death of the Bismarck in the Stone Age - and find that the most interesting thing is...
          You see, our existence and its history are generally permeated with cause-and-effect relationships, quadrillions of them... You just showed one such relationship. Of course, there is a connection between hitting a battleship and its destruction.
          But the cause of some event should be considered to be some something, the consequence of which this event was. The consequence of hitting Bismarck was the cancellation of the operation, loss of fuel, and an unmasking trail. However, all this, even taken together, did not predetermine the death of the battleship. The battleship could have broken away from pursuit (which it did), and had every chance of reaching the shores of France. The fact that it did not succeed is a consequence of other reasons. The presence of an aircraft carrier in the British fleet, the sufficient preparation of its air group, a successful torpedo hit, etc.
          At the same time, it is completely unclear whether Bismarck would have survived if this hit had not happened. Yes, it would have reached communications, but, as Sabaton sings - the fleet is coming and interception of Bismarck, say, on its return by carrier aviation was also quite possible.
          Therefore, hitting Bismarck was not the cause of its destruction, it only created the preconditions for the latter to enter the zone of action of British torpedo bombers, which delivered the fatal blow.
    2. +2
      18 February 2025 19: 40
      Andrey, to be honest, I didn’t understand the idea of ​​this article...
      Continuing the discussions around Podgorny’s article looks like trying to fit an owl onto a globe.

      you can’t say better.
      I won't be shy about being a captain and will add that Washington cruisers are first and foremost "Washington" and only then "cruisers". And the key to understanding them is precisely in this agreement. Almost all the answers are there.
    3. 0
      18 February 2025 19: 52
      1. Specially built corsairs that have not proven themselves as corsairs. The cost of the tonnage they have sunk would not amount to even 10% of the cost of one of them.
      2. The Britons themselves were initially shocked by what they had come up with. Cruisers with virtually no armor, but with 203mm main guns.
      3. Considering the chaos in the command near Savo, one can consider that the Anglo-Saxons were lucky.
      4. "Bismarck" is a great example of how not to build ships.
      5. WWII showed that the basis for the raiders' success was not the caliber of the main guns, but the naval experience and caution of their commanders (as applied to commercial raiders). However, this also applies to ships.
      1. +1
        18 February 2025 20: 57
        Quote: TermNachTER
        2. The Britons themselves were initially shocked by what they had come up with. Cruisers with virtually no armor, but with 203mm main guns.

        Compared to the "Duquesnes", the "Counties" are simply well protected... :)

        Quote: TermNachTER
        4. "Bismarck" is a great example of how not to build ships.

        Such as?
        1. +2
          18 February 2025 21: 22
          1. So all the first generation Washingtons had very weak armor, in the second they tried to correct the mistakes.
          2. "Bismarck" was built without regard for Washington, and the Germans "came out" with all their money, but it turned out that no restrictions had the opposite effect. Well, and as a bonus, the shipbuilding school in Germany deteriorated greatly during the interwar period.
          1. 0
            18 February 2025 22: 06
            Quote: TermNachTER
            1. So all the first generation Washingtons had very weak armor, in the second they tried to correct the mistakes.

            This is not really disputed...

            Quote: TermNachTER
            2. "Bismarck" was built without regard for Washington

            You are mistaken, it was initially designed as a "Washington" battleship, then "improvements" began...

            Quote: TermNachTER
            it just turned out that no restrictions have the opposite effect.

            Expand on this thought, if it's not too much trouble.

            Quote: TermNachTER
            The shipbuilding school in Germany deteriorated greatly during the interwar period.

            In which place?
            1. +1
              18 February 2025 22: 17
              I don't know how we started, but we got what we got.
              No restrictions - you can build a big one. But it turned out that big means large armor areas (horizontal and vertical) - it turned out that in terms of armor it is no better than the Washington ones.
              I read a German shipbuilder, he says that from the end of the 30th and the beginning of the XNUMXth, in order to enter the shipbuilding department of the Ministry, it was required - a specialized education, extensive experience working in state or private shipyards and only then, a very strict exam for the right to work in the shipbuilding department and then, on a "back-up" basis. In the XNUMXs,
              It was enough to graduate from a shipbuilding university and express a desire to work in the shipbuilding department.
              1. 0
                18 February 2025 22: 26
                Quote: TermNachTER
                I don't know how we started, but we got what we got.

                Well, read it: the data is no longer classified - there is a sea of ​​literature on it.

                Quote: TermNachTER
                But it turned out that large means large areas of armor (horizontal and vertical) - it turned out that in terms of armor it is no better than the Washington ones.

                Each school has its own peculiarities, if you don’t like them, then that’s your problem. :)

                Quote: TermNachTER
                I read a German shipbuilder

                Vague doubts torment me ...
                But this is still not a matter of degradation, but of personnel policy.
                Degradation, unfortunately, can be seen in the example of Russia/USSR with their revolutions, civil war and other accompanying things.
  13. +2
    18 February 2025 19: 12
    Hello, deeply respected Andrey!
    Thank you very much for the next article in the series, I was waiting for it any day now.

    Was it worth filling this niche during the Second World War? Were large specialized surface ships needed at all to fight on the communications

    In practice it turned out that it was not worth it. But admirals, like generals, always prepare for the past war.
  14. 0
    18 February 2025 22: 11
    Good article. I look forward to the continuation with interest.
  15. +2
    19 February 2025 05: 50
    The series of articles does not take into account that the maritime powers even before the war began have an asymmetrical disposition in naval power: someone dominates the sea, someone will have to challenge this dominance.

    The one who dominates has no particular need to raid himself. His strategy of fighting against the enemy's merchant shipping comes down to ensuring a blockade (this is one of the ways to implement dominance at sea). But for a blockade, it is not so much heavy cruisers (fast and powerfully armed) that are needed, as ships of other classes: numerous (to be omnipresent), not too fast (it is enough to be faster than 90% of its merchant victims - the remaining 10% will not make a difference, or will be intercepted by someone else). That is, for a blockade, light cruisers, destroyers, minelayers, submarines, patrol ships are needed... They are also (what a surprise!) the basis of the light forces of the fleet in the sense of "traditional" naval warfare. Heavy ships are also useful in a blockade, but only as support and ensuring combat stability of light forces - to prevent the opponent's fleet from "offending" them with its attempts to lift the blockade.

    On the other hand, the one who dominates the seas needs to protect his communications from enemy raiders. "Trade protectors" are needed for distant seas. If the enemy raiders are light and auxiliary cruisers (and they will still be there, since they are cheaper than heavy cruisers), then heavy cruisers will become reliable and ultimate counter-raiders against them. Destroyers and aircraft are more necessary against submarines. If the enemy sends a battleship to raid, you will have to respond symmetrically (as a result, the enemy will most likely have one less battleship; and this is despite the fact that the disposition at sea is not in his favor anyway). If heavy cruisers engage in raiding, then you will have to either deploy a larger number of your own heavy cruisers or linear forces against them.

    In summary: for someone who already dominates the sea, heavy cruisers are needed first and foremost to combat combat enemy ships. Both during blockades and in trade protection. Not to mention squadron duty, which is routine for 20th century cruisers.

    Now let us consider the opponent who is disputing the enemy's dominance at sea.

    For him, raiding is indeed an important part of the strategy of action. Including against the enemy's merchant shipping. Including in distant seas. However, exchanging your raider (especially if it is an expensive heavy cruiser) for a similar enemy ship will not shift the balance of power in favor of the contesting one. Quite the opposite. And this is not at all what is required to fight for supremacy at sea. The death of several transports in distant seas will not undermine the enemy's economy as much as an enemy blockade undermines its own economy. Not to mention the risk that the raider may simply perish without taking with him a single proportionate enemy warship (if he runs into the ultimate defenders of trade). The raider's ability to divert part of the enemy fleet's forces is meaningless if their temporary absence from the main theater of military operations is not planned to be used to his advantage.

    Raids should be targeted first to destroy enemy warships - to shift the balance of power in your favor. Possible strategy: knock out light blockade forces with your heavy cruisers, provoke their support (enemy heavy cruisers and battleships), chase raiders (to lure them into an ambush and destroy them), and send cheap auxiliary cruisers (suicide raiders) to distant communications - to divert part of the enemy light forces from the main theater of operations. Sending your heavy cruisers on distant raids is justified only if the "diversion" of part of the enemy heavy cruisers or battleships from the main theater of operations is required in order to to force a general naval battle on the enemy, in which it is intended to take away supremacy at sea. The departed heavy cruisers-raiders should, in such a situation, don't avoid a fight against enemy warships, but to impose it on the weakest forces in order to shift the balance in their favor. Here the more important criterion is no longer the sunken tonnage of merchants, but the extermination of the "defenders of trade" (examples of such actions: Emden against Zhemchug, Königsberg against Pegasus, Spee's plans to destroy Australia and Canopus...).

    In any case, it turns out that all sides in a naval war Heavy cruisers are needed primarily to combat enemy warships, and not with merchants. Even if they went on a raid against merchants. Which the author confirms in the article, considering the importance of 8-inch artillery for raiders primarily in terms of its effectiveness in the event of an encounter with an enemy warship.
    1. +2
      19 February 2025 09: 49
      Quote: Pushkowed
      it is not taken into account that even before the start of the war, the maritime powers have an asymmetrical disposition in naval power

      You are absolutely right. However, this will be taken into account in the article series - it just hasn't gotten to that point yet
  16. 0
    April 5 2025 12: 53
    It is more profitable for a raider to have many 6" guns than a couple of 8".
    It is better to escape from an equal enemy at the expense of speed. Against armed transports, 203 mm are excessive. And against a faster light cruiser, they are useless.
    At the Battle of Ko Chang, the well-armored but slow HTMS Thonburi/Dhonburi had four powerful 203mm guns in twin turrets.
    The light Lamotte-Piquet has 8 x 155 mm.
    Due to their superiority in the one-minute salvo, the French routed the enemy with minimal losses.