Military Review

10 terrible victories for Soviet submariners

211



The ten largest victories of Soviet submariners have a rather gloomy tint:

1. Goya (April 17 1945, killed about 7 Thousands of refugees from East Prussia, cadets and wounded soldiers);

2. "Wilhelm Gustloff" (30 January 1945, the official figure - 5348 dead);

3. “General von Steuben” (9 February 1945, killed 3608 wounded soldiers and refugees from East Prussia);

4. Salzburg (October 1 1942, killed about Soviet prisoners of war 2100);

5. Hindenburg (November 19 1942, Soviet prisoners of war 800 killed);

6. Tayto-Maru (22 August 1945, 780 refugees from South Sakhalin were killed);

7. "Struma" (24 February 1942, 768 refugees died from the countries of South-Eastern Europe to Palestine);

8. Ogasavara Maru (22 August 1945, 545 refugees from South Sakhalin were killed);

9. “Nordstern” (October 6 1944, 531 refugee from the Baltic states to Germany died);

10. Shinkyo-Maru (22 in August 1945 of the year, killing about 500 refugees from South Sakhalin).

As can be seen from the list, the odious "Wilhelm Gustloff", disputes about which have been going on for decades, was not the first and far from the last ship in stories greatest disasters of the sea. The 10 places exactly ten places, but the list goes on and on: for example, the honorable 11 is occupied by the German transport Zonniewick - October 8 1944, a torpedo salvo from the U-310 submarine killed the people of East Prussia (mostly evacuated population of East Prussia) . 448 place - transport “Göttingen” (sunk 12 February 23 of the year, again several hundred dead refugees) ...
Needless to say, success is simply terrible. How to classify these "atrocities of the Soviet submariners"? Are these war crimes or tragic mistakes unavoidable in any war?

Answer options are usually several.

The first categorical opinion: this is a lie of Western propaganda. The Soviet Navy is pure as a tear, and everything that hurts honor fleet must be classified in archives for a period up to 2145.

The second opinion is more tactful: were the dead Germans? So they should!

Of course, the Soviet people have many reasons for deadly offense - every family has a relative who fell at the front or was tortured to death in German captivity. But the question arises: how then will “we” be different from “them”? “An eye for an eye will blind the whole world” (Mahatma Gandhi).

Third, the masochistic democratic opinion sounds simple: Repent! Repent! Repent! Soviet submariners made an irreparable mistake and there is no forgiveness for them.

Someone will say that truth always lies in the middle. But this is a very naive and primitive idea of ​​truth! It can be shifted in one way or the other, which is why the truth is always so hard to find.
10 terrible victories for Soviet submariners

200-meter, ten-deck liner "Wilhelm Gustloff"

Life has long made a fair verdict for each of the maritime tragedies of World War II. Some of the circumstances can be blamed on submariners, in some cases there is every reason to put the blame on the victims themselves (not those innocent victims of the war, who, clutching children to their bosoms, went into the deep abyss, and those who traitorously foolishly planned an operation to evacuate refugees ). Of course, one thing - all this is a tragic concurrence of circumstances. Inevitability. The terrible costs of any war.

And if so, then you need to consider the problem in a broader sense. The list below does not intend to "praise" Soviet submariners, as well as "throw mud at" foreign sailors. Just statistics that directly confirm my thesis about the inevitable tragedies of any war.

The largest casualties of the Second World War:

1. Goya (April 17 1945, 7000 killed wounded German soldiers and refugees from East Prussia);

2. Junyo-Maru (September 18 1944, American, British and Dutch prisoners of war 1500 died and 4200 Javanese workers in bamboo cages. Junyo-Maru is a scary trophy of the British submarine Tradewind);

3. "Toyama-Maru" (29 June 1944 of the year, ≈5,5 thous. Victims. This time the democratic American submarine "Stezhen" distinguished itself ");

4. "Cap Arkona" (3 May 1945 of the year, among the dead ≈5,5 thousand prisoners of concentration camps. The Royal Air Force of Great Britain distinguished itself in battle);

5. "Wilhelm Gustloff" (January 30 1945, "Attack of the Century" by Marinesko. Officially 5348 dead);

6. “Armenia” (7 in November 1941, ≈5 thousand people died);

... German ships "General von Stoiben", "Salzburg", Japanese transport "Taito-Maru", Bulgarian-Romanian-Panamanian sloop "Struma", the British liner "Lancastria" (sunk by German aviation in 1940, the number of victims exceeded the losses of the Titanic and Lusitania combined) ...

General von Steuben hospital ship. The second "trophy" of Alexander Marinesko

Everybody was wrong and always. Someone will sarcastically notice that the Goya, sunk by the Soviet submarine L-3, is still in the first place. What is there to argue? Soviet accomplishments were great, Soviet mistakes were monstrous. Otherwise, we do not know how to live.

The list of WWII sea catastrophes is not “ultimate truth”. The only thing we know for sure is the names of the ships and the date of their sinking. Occasionally - the exact coordinates of the drowning site. Everything. These data on the number of victims vary from source to source and, at best, reflect official figures that are very far from reality.
Thus, according to the number of victims, some researchers put Wilhelm Gustloff in the first place - according to survivors' memories, there could be more than 10 thousand people on board, while, according to various sources, only 1,5 to 2,5 thousands could be saved!

The greatest maritime tragedy — the sinking of the Goya transport — has generally remained outside the bounds of official history. This is easily explained: unlike the “Attack of the Century”, in which the ten-deck handsome liner “Wilhelm Gustloff” was sunk, in the case of the “Goya”, the Soviet submarine destroyed an ordinary freighter full of people. Among the passengers are wounded servicemen, Wehrmacht soldiers, but the main part are refugees from East Prussia. Escort - 2 minesweeper, another steamer and tug. "Goya" was not a hospital ship and did not carry the corresponding coloring. At night, at the exit from the Danzig Bay, the vessel was torpedoed by the Soviet submarine L-3 and after just 7 minutes sank.

The cabin of the submarine L-3, sank the German transport "Goya". Exposition on Poklonnaya Hill, Moscow

Who is guilty? In fact - no one! L-3 had orders to sink German ships leaving Danzig. The Soviet submariners had no means of detection, except for the primitive periscope and sonar post. Using them, it was impossible to determine the nature of the cargo and the destination of the vessel. There is a German miscalculation in this story - evacuating thousands of people on a dry cargo ship in military camouflage, knowing that a couple of months ago, Wilhelm Gustloff and General von Steuben died under similar circumstances - the decision is rather dubious.

No less terrible events occurred in the Black Sea on November 7 1941 of the year - the German torpedo bomber He-111 sank the ship "Armenia". On board the Soviet vessel were the personnel and patients of the 23 evacuated hospitals, the staff of the Artek camp, and the members of the families of the party leadership of the Crimea — thousands of civilians and military personnel. Maritime history has not yet known such tragedies: the number of people killed in 5 times exceeded the number of victims of the Titanic disaster! According to official data, out of 5, thousands of people who found onboard “Armenia” managed to escape only eight. Modern historians are inclined to believe that official data were underreported in 1,5-2 times - “Armenia” may well claim to be “first place” in the list of the most terrible sea catastrophes. The exact location of the sinking of the ship is still unknown.

“Armenia”, “Gustloff”, “von Steuben” - from the official point of view, all of them were legal trophies. They did not carry identification marks of “hospital ships”, but they carried anti-aircraft artillery. On board were military experts and soldiers. On board the "Wilhelm Gustloff" there were 918 cadets of the 2 training submarine division (2. U-Boot-Lehrdivision).

Historians and journalists are still arguing about the number of anti-aircraft guns on board the “von Steuben” or “Armenia,” disputes over “dozens of trained submarine crews” aboard the Gustloff do not subside. But the conclusion seems simple: Alexander Marinesko, like the crew of the German torpedo bomber He-111, did not care about such trifles. They did not see any clear evidence of the “hospital ship” - neither the special white color, nor the three red crosses on board. They saw a goal. They had an order to destroy enemy ships and ships - and they fulfilled their duty to the end. It would be better if they did not do it, but ... who could have known! As already mentioned, seamen and pilots did not have any means to determine the nature of the cargo. The tragic coincidence of circumstances, nothing more.

Submarine Shch-213, Black Sea Fleet. One of the main suspects in the sinking of the sloop "Struma"

Soviet sailors were not bloodthirsty murderers - after the sinking of the motor-sailing sloop "Strum" the commander of the U-213 submarine, Lieutenant Dmitry Denezhko, was in a depressed state. According to the recollections of the foreman of Nosov, Denezhko spent the whole night studying nautical charts and verifying the data - trying to convince himself that it was not his torpedo that cut off the life of 768 Jewish refugees. It is noteworthy that the remains of the "Strum" in the specified place were not found - there is a certain probability that the Soviet sailors really had nothing to do with that - the "Strum" was blown up by mines ...

As for the accidental sinking of the Japanese "ships of hell" - "Dzunyo-Maru" and "Toyama-Maru", here everything is very clear. The bastards from the Japanese General Staff used ordinary bulk carriers to transport thousands of prisoners of war and people from the occupied territories. No security measures were taken. People were often transported in bamboo cages, brought to certain death - the construction of strategic objects on the islands of the Pacific Ocean. Special vehicles did not differ from ordinary military transport ships - it is not surprising that they periodically became prey for American and British submariners.

Japanese transport Kinai-Maru before drowning

Under similar circumstances, the Soviet submarine M-118 sank the Salzburg transport, which transported more than 2 thousands of Soviet prisoners of war from Odessa to Constanta. The blame for these events lies entirely with the Japanese and German war criminals - those who foolishly planned the transportation of prisoners of war and did everything to kill people.

Sometimes the question is: what is the point of sinking three Japanese transports overloaded with refugees from South Sakhalin? The tragedy occurred on August 22 of the year 1945 and killed almost 1700 people. The Soviet submarine L-19 shot torpedoes "Tayto-Maru" and "Shinke Maru" directly in the port of Ruma on about. Hokkaido With that, before the official end of the war, 10 days remained, and since August 20, the process of surrender of the Japanese troops was going on. Why did you want meaningless bloodshed? The answer is only one - this is the bloody essence of war. I sincerely sympathize with the Japanese, but there is no one to judge - the underwater mine layer L-19 did not return from a military campaign.

But the worst was the sinking of the CapArkona liner. 3 May 1945, a vessel overloaded with thousands of concentration camp prisoners, was destroyed by valiant British aircraft in the port of Lübeck. According to the reports of the pilots, they clearly saw the white flags on the caps of Cap Arkona and the living mass of people in striped camp uniforms rushing around the deck in despair, but ... continued to shoot the burning ship in cold blood. Why? They had orders to destroy ships in the harbor of Lübeck. They are used to shoot at the enemy. The soulless mechanism of war was unstoppable.

Monument to the victims of the "Cap Arkona" tragedy

The conclusion from this whole story is simple: tragic coincidences happened everywhere, but in the naval history of other countries such cases are masked against the background of numerous bright victories.
The Germans prefer not to recall the horrors of “Armenia” and “Lankastria”, the heroic pages of the Kriegsmarine history are connected with completely different events - the raid on Scapa Flow, the sinking of the battleships “Hood”, “Barham” and “Roma”, the destruction of the British aircraft carrier Koreyjes, Eagle and Ark Royal ... The tragic mistakes of the US Navy are lost against the background of night artillery duels, drowning of the Yamato, the Shinano or Taiho supercarrier. The assets of the British sailors - the sinking of "Bismarck", "Scharnhorst", the attack of the naval base of Taranto, the destruction of heavy Italian cruisers, won the "Battle of the Atlantic".

Alas, the Soviet Navy became a hostage of its own propaganda - choosing the sinking of the “Wilhelm Gustloff” liner as the “Attack of the Century”, the political consultants, without knowing it, opened the “Pandora’s Box”. No doubt, the Marinesko night torpedo attack is technically worthy of all praise. But, for all its complexity, it does not pull the military feat. There is nothing to reproach the brave sailor, but there is nothing to admire here either. All just a tragic coincidence.
Author:
211 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. NKVD
    NKVD 25 March 2013 09: 11
    47
    MINUS article !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! Winners are not judged !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Submariners did the right thing, these are the things that brought the victory hour closer
    1. UPStoyan
      UPStoyan 25 March 2013 09: 55
      40
      They drowned and did it right. The submariners did not know about the composition of the cargo and passengers, and could not know, therefore they attacked as an ordinary target, which could transport important supplies or reinforcements.
      1. vladimirZ
        vladimirZ 25 March 2013 11: 23
        26
        This is a feat of Soviet submariners!
        To go on a military campaign to simple military patrols, to search for a target, when at any moment the submarine itself could become someone else’s goal, to find and choose a worthy large reimbursable target guarded by a dozen security ships, to deceive them and come out as Winners in this battle - this Combat feat of sailors submariners! Glory to the submariners!
        The Germans used to have to think when they enslaved other nations and shouted "Heil" to their demoniac Fuhrer. The people who raised the sword of war will die from this sword.
        1. Hudo
          Hudo 25 March 2013 11: 39
          17
          Quote: vladimirZ
          This is a feat of Soviet submariners!


          It was this fact that worried the disrespected author. Look, how he (the author) in the article is othalsya in order to belittle, belittle and dump this great feat in the mud. It is from such "authors" that filthy carriers of bread and salt are bred to the invaders and invaders of our land. And this is not an article at all, but the malice of a vile mankurt.
          1. Delta
            Delta 25 March 2013 11: 59
            14
            no, it's easier. It's just that this "author" invented a new kind of trolling: not in the comments, but by creating such "works". Do not prove anything to him, he will not see the arguments point-blank, he does not need it. Psychologists call these energy vampires, so don't waste your energy on THIS.
            1. Hudo
              Hudo 25 March 2013 12: 12
              +7
              It’s even easier, Delta, they tried to spoil our forehead, but it doesn’t work out right away. Therefore, parasites and invent workarounds to find loopholes to advance their ugly fabrications and sow doubts about the great feat of our ancestors.
              1. crazyrom
                crazyrom April 8 2013 19: 31
                0
                As I understand it, these are 10 ships that we sunk? There is nothing "terrible" in this, excellent victories, so they all reptiles should, there was nothing to climb to us.
            2. Good Ukraine
              Good Ukraine 25 March 2013 13: 59
              +5
              Quote: Delta
              Do not prove anything to him, he will not see the arguments point blank, he does not need it.


              Vyacheslav, good afternoon.
              No, you need to talk about it. Youngsters really don't know nifiga now. They think the West has won the war. It is very good that the victory parade on May 9 is being held again, it is very good that they remembered the war of 1812. We have a lot to be proud of. Look what they are proud of abroad. They have excursions on all sorts of nonsense. We have - both in Ukraine and in Russia wherever you stick - an element of history, and a kind, "warm" and peaceful history. Even if the feats and historical dates are military, it is the defense of the Motherland.
            3. vyatom
              vyatom 26 March 2013 17: 08
              +1
              Quote: Delta
              no, it's easier. It's just that this "author" invented a new kind of trolling: not in the comments, but by creating such "works". Do not prove anything to him, he will not see the arguments point-blank, he does not need it. Psychologists call these energy vampires, so don't waste your energy on THIS.

              The most true comment. The mongrel barks - the caravan is on.
        2. Good Ukraine
          Good Ukraine 25 March 2013 13: 50
          +6
          Quote: vladimirZ
          This is a feat of Soviet submariners!


          Article "minus". Obviously a pro-Western order.
          Why does the author not write about the "exploits" of the fascists in Belarus, where hundreds of villages with the entire civilian population were burned? Or was it confused with military installations? I forgot - "Belarus did not succumb to democratisation even then, and now the Old Man is not giving up the country to defeat."
          Let the author better remember 10 "terrible victories" such as: Battle of Stalingrad, Battle of Kursk, Blockade of Leningrad, Battle of Moscow, Smolensk, Kiev, Sevastopol, Minsk, Tula, Odessa. Why does no one remember the executions of civilians? Where are the memories of Babi Yar, Khatyn?
          What memory has disappeared?
          "Great tragedy" = 10 ships were sunk with the military on board. Or did the Germans go to Antalya on vacation?
          In this case, why are there no recollections of convoys with food for the USSR? There were also civilian crews.

          ORDER. MINUS
          1. Andrew-001
            Andrew-001 25 March 2013 15: 27
            +2
            Quote: Dobryak Ukraine
            Article "minus". Obviously Westernized order

            I would not call the story about how the British pilots shot a liner with a raised white flag "pro-Western order".
            Quote: Dobryak Ukraine
            Why does the author not write about the "exploits" of the fascists

            These "feats" are painted more than once and paint them again in small article about unknown tragedies on the sea no need.
            I did not see the krigsmarin in the article of praise, I did not see the condemnation of our submariners. Moreover, it was emphasized that our submariners were in their own right and were obliged to sink these vessels.
            1. Good Ukraine
              Good Ukraine 25 March 2013 19: 34
              +8
              Quote: Andrew-001
              I did not see the kriegsmarin in the article praise, I did not see the condemnation of our submariners


              You, everyone respected here, say that everyone did not read the article correctly and say that no one condemns our submariners.
              Let me remind you that the article is called: "10 terrible victories of Soviet submariners"
              So, we don’t need to tell tales here.
              I will repeat about the "exploits" of the fascists, of whom you speak:
              Quote: Andrew-001
              These "exploits" have been described more than once and there is no need to describe them again in a small article about unknown tragedies at sea.

              I say a hundred times that we need to talk about this, because many have started writing articles like this one and do not write about the huge tragedy that happened, thereby diverting attention from who is really good in the world and who is evil. And who really is the "EMPIRE OF EVIL"
              1. Andrew-001
                Andrew-001 26 March 2013 21: 18
                0
                Ay-yay-yay, why juggle. I do not say to everyone, but only to those who, in my opinion (and I don’t consider myself always right in everything), did not read the article, but overlooked it. As for the title of the article - I can agree with you - the title is not clear. In the sense, it is not clear what the author had in mind. if "terrible victories" in the sense that many people died - then he is right, and if "terrible" in the fact that Soviet submariners drowned the Germans - then I cannot agree with him in any way, the first embroidery is closer to me.
                Concerning
                Quote: Dobryak Ukraine
                the "exploits" of the fascists you are talking about

                So you are talking about them. I'm not going to deny that the German Nazis attacked our country and caused it a lot of trouble - you decided to suspect me of this ?!

                As for the article - I urge discussion on the topic described in the article, and not verbiage in general. In this article, I am interested in descriptions of the actions of those who drowned enemy ships. But not at all multi-page descriptions of the crimes of German troops in Khotyn, or the reasons for the bombing of Nagasaki.
        3. Machito
          Machito 5 November 2018 00: 11
          0
          Swamp them all!
      2. Papakiko
        Papakiko 25 March 2013 12: 22
        +9
        Quote: UPStoyan
        Drowned and did the right thing

        Goya (April 17, 1945, killing 7000 wounded German troops and refugees from East Prussia)
        "William Gustloff" (January 30, 1945, the official figure is 5348 dead);
        "General von Steuben" (February 9, 1945, killing 3608 wounded military personnel and refugees from East Prussia)
        The Nordstern (October 6, 1944, killing 531 refugees from the Baltic states to Germany)
        Were drowned "refugees" from the Wehrmacht troops trapped in the Baltic.
        How many each of these ships had time to make a "walker" before sinking !?

        Refugees to Sweden burst, from which then into the "mattress" !!!!
        Many ships flying the Swedish flag sunk?

        Therefore, the question is closed!
        1. Proud.
          Proud. 25 March 2013 13: 15
          +6
          By the way, "E" (and) ... A very streamlined word-refugees. Anyone can be summed up under this category, including German bureaucrats and all Reichs managers. As the hero of one novel said: "In war, people are not killed (with weapons), in war destroy enemies. "
          1. Alex
            Alex 2 September 2013 17: 41
            +2
            Quote: Gordey
            By the way, "E" (and) ... A very streamlined word-refugees. Anyone can be brought under this category, including German bureaucrats and all sorts of Reich managers.

            For the most part, this is how it was. Something I strongly doubt that such scarce places on the ocean liner (and this was the long-suffering "Wiligelm Gustlov") were given to Polish peasants or Riga workers.
        2. Papakiko
          Papakiko 25 March 2013 14: 52
          +6
          Quote: Papakiko
          Goya

          He made 5 voyages, during the previous ones he took out almost 20 "refugees":

          Quote: Papakiko
          Wilhelm Gustloff



          Purely hospital ships, right?
          1. igordok
            igordok 25 March 2013 17: 38
            +7
            Quote: Papakiko
            Purely hospital ships, right?


            Could the author (the "respected author" is unacceptable here) point to the photograph "Hospital ship" General von Steuben. The second "trophy" Alexander Marinesco "on what grounds he ranked this ship as hospital.
            Article minus.
          2. valiant
            valiant 25 March 2013 21: 12
            +3
            Well, Gustlov was still a hospital ship at the beginning of the war, then it was repainted ... But Marinesko did absolutely right, according to the laws of wartime.
    2. ikrut
      ikrut 25 March 2013 16: 43
      20
      I agree. Article - MINUS !!! For liberal deceit in the first place.

      The FIRST and the largest crime at sea in the world was committed by the Nazis by sinking the hospital transport "Armenia" on November 7.11.41, XNUMX.
      The author writes: "According to official data, out of 5 thousand people who were on board the" Armenia ", only eight managed to escape ... The exact place where the ship was sunk is still unknown."
      It was necessary not to be lazy and read about "Armenia". And the place has long been known and the fact that there were SEVEN thousand people in Armenia. "Armenia" killed "the entire staff of four naval Sevastopol and Yalta hospitals." (C) And the "Armenia" was the emblem of the Red Cross.
      Here is what eyewitnesses say: “The motor ship had not yet managed to go out into the open sea, when a group of enemy planes flew in and, despite the fact that medical crosses were clearly visible on the sides of the ship, they began aimed bombing at the floating hospital ... Not only along the sides, but an identification mark - a red cross was also laid out on the deck of the ship. But the bombers ignored it. "
      This is not the sinking of a ship by a submarine, but a cynical and unpunished shooting of the wounded and sick people. And the author's statement about the "tragic coincidence of circumstances", as well as the comparison of the exploits of our submariners with the Nazi pilots - killers is, in my opinion, the highest degree of cynicism, loss of conscience and historical memory.
      1. gmajor
        gmajor 25 March 2013 17: 39
        +3
        Moreover, the pilots are not submariners, they see who is being drowned.
        1. Egoza
          Egoza 25 March 2013 21: 12
          +3
          Quote: gmajor
          Moreover, the pilots are not submariners, they see who is being drowned.

          Right! For some reason, the pilots did not hesitate to bomb our ships with refugees, despite the red cross! Our great-great-grandfather captain died - they tried to evacuate children from Odessa on a barge. And after all the children were sitting on the deck, they were clearly visible!
          But the "refugees" on the indicated sunken ships could also be different, including the Esseses with their families.
        2. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 26 March 2013 01: 18
          +3
          Quote: gmajor
          Moreover, the pilots are not submariners, they see who is being drowned.

          And once again, purely for information and understanding:
          Vessels intended for the transportation of refugees, hospital ships should have been marked with the corresponding signs - a red cross, could not wear camouflage, could not go in the same convoy along with military vessels. On board could not be any military cargo, stationary and temporarily placed air defense weapons, artillery guns or other similar means.
          "William Gustloff" was a warship, which allowed six thousand refugees to board. All responsibility for their lives from the moment they embarked on the warship lay with the relevant officials of the German navy. Thus, Gustloff was the legitimate military target of Soviet submariners in view of the following facts:
          "William Gustloff" was not an unarmed civilian vessel: it had weapons on board that could be used to fight enemy ships and aircraft;
          "William Gustloff" was a training floating base for the German submarine fleet;
          "William Gustloff" was accompanied by a warship of the German fleet (destroyer "Lion");
          Soviet transports with refugees and wounded during the war have repeatedly become targets for German submarines and aircraft (in particular, the ship "Armenia", sunk in 1941 in the Black Sea, was carrying more than 5 thousand refugees and wounded on board. Only 8 people survived However, “Armenia”, like “Wilhelm Gustloff”, violated the status of a sanitary vessel, “Armenia” was armed with four 21-K anti-aircraft guns. In addition to the wounded and refugees, there were military and NKVD personnel on board. boats and two I-153 fighters. In this regard, “Armenia” was a “military” target from the point of view of international law.
          Refugees are sorry, but war is war.
      2. vitlas
        vitlas 19 November 2018 18: 14
        0
        I fully support you!
    3. vjhbc
      vjhbc 25 March 2013 19: 24
      -1
      The second opinion is more tactful: were the dead Germans? So they should!
    4. QW4238
      QW4238 25 March 2013 22: 36
      +1
      We must not forget the main thing, all these ships marched under the NAVY FLAG of Germany, so these are legitimate military targets. To the author minus.
    5. nakaz
      nakaz 26 March 2013 11: 07
      -1
      This is all wrong. Whoever started first must be burned with a hot iron.
    6. postman
      postman 28 March 2013 00: 04
      -1
      Quote: NKVD
      MINUS article !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! Winners are not judged !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Have you ever read the article?

      Quote: Author
      But, for all its complexity, she does not pull on a military feat. There is nothing to reproach the brave sailor for, but there is nothing to admire here either. All just a tragic combination of circumstances.

      Where is the "court"?
      On the contrary, the author "whitewashes", which does not require "whitewashing":
      à la guerre comme à la guerre.
      He shot tea not in a concentration camp
    7. Kolya
      Kolya 29 March 2013 22: 14
      0
      That war was to annihilation. The fascist coalition set the task - the extermination of the Slavs. They are our 20 million. managed to destroy. The dead do not speak. And we were too humane, we left too much scum to live, and their descendants stink now because they live and live. And our dead are in the ground and cannot tell us to stop listening to nonsense about the crimes of the Soviet Army.
  2. Baron Wrangell
    Baron Wrangell 25 March 2013 09: 15
    18
    damned war! And submariners have always fulfilled their military duty! Drowned the enemy ships! Glory and honor to them! May their souls rest on the seabed!
  3. Tartary
    Tartary 25 March 2013 09: 25
    31
    Again call for a sprinkle of ash on the head?
    What was drowned, shot, starved to death ...

    Let the Amers with the Angles answer for their "training" in 44-45 in the cities of Europe, and especially for the "blunders" in the camps with hardworking prisoners and repatriates ...
    And most importantly, let the Americans answer for Hiroshima with Nagasaki in full!

    When will this finally happen?
  4. Alone
    Alone 25 March 2013 09: 26
    +6
    If you compare with the crimes and atrocities that the Nazis committed ... Article minus.
  5. redwolf_13
    redwolf_13 25 March 2013 09: 27
    18
    Maybe you still remember the words of the Pope of German submariners Doenitz "FLOW THEM ALL. I will be responsible for everything. And God will figure out who is to blame and who is not."
    The Germans fought on such a trailer and they wanted to put on everyone. The right of the strong to be right.
    Stop digging around in the dermis like pigs constantly pawing the tunic of HEROES OF WINNERS. It is not for us to judge them; they fought and defended us.
  6. qwert
    qwert 25 March 2013 09: 33
    10
    Normal article. The author writes that there were no signs that the ship was hospitalized or belong to neutral countries. And the submarines always drowned mostly not warships, namely transports. This, like the use of strategic aviation, is primarily a means to reduce the enemy’s military-industrial potential. According to the memoirs of submariners, it is clear that the goal was not to destroy the destroyer, but transport. So, putting them on a par with the Nazis firing at ambulance trains or the Americans opening fire on the wedding process is certainly not worth it.
    1. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 25 March 2013 14: 17
      +2
      Yeah, only the aircraft for some reason bombed exclusively those areas that later fell under Soviet occupation.
  7. Gazprom
    Gazprom 25 March 2013 09: 36
    +4
    There was a war, the soldier was carrying out the task. And he was doing perfectly well!
    and enough of this nagging about the dead German women and children.
    for me, Churchill’s option with the total annihilation of the whole nation is quite acceptable, it’s enough to go through Belarus, and there will be no questions.

    but in general the article delivers, I quote
    1. "Goya" (April 17, 1945, killed about 7 thousand refugees from East Prussia, cadets and wounded soldiers);
    binders, 7000, refugees wounded and young boys.
    open the German wiki, so they don’t cry-
    Das Schiff sollte im April 1945 verwundete Soldaten, flüchtende Zivilisten und 200 Angehörige des Panzerregiments 35 aus Westpreußen evakuieren. Die genaue Anzahl der Passagiere bei dieser Fahrt ist nicht bekannt. Der verantwortliche Zahlmeister zählte allein am Fallreep über 7.000 Personen. [2]
    I will translate
    In addition to civilian and wounded servicemen, there were 200 soldiers on board of the 35th Wehrmacht tank regiment. The exact number of passengers on this trip was not known. it seems like 7000 went
    you feel the difference between poor boys and 200 tankmen and horseradish how many people know
    Yes, it's time to repent for the fact that fascism was not accepted ...
    1. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 25 March 2013 10: 26
      +7
      The Hague Convention put forward several requirements for hospital courts:
      The ship should be clearly marked as a hospital ship;
      The vessel must provide medical assistance to representatives of any nation;
      The vessel should not be used for military purposes;
      Ships should not interfere in hostilities or obstruct enemy combat ships;
      Belligerents, as determined by the Hague Agreement, may search any hospital ship for violations of the above conditions.
      In case of violation of at least one of these requirements, the ship automatically became an enemy and could be destroyed legally. However, deliberate attack and destruction of a hospital ship that meets all the requirements was considered a war crime.
      To make the hospital ship easy to recognize at sea, it was usually painted in the international colors of the hospital ship: mustard-colored pipes, a completely white hull, a green stripe along the entire length of the hull, interrupted by three red crosses. Also, the ship went under the medical flag: a white flag with a red cross. Such livery guaranteed the ship safety from military operations and inviolable status.
      Goya with camouflage. Danzig Bay, 1945
      1. Gazprom
        Gazprom 25 March 2013 11: 25
        0
        Aleksys2

        Yes, I read the article, and so looked on the network that we can not be any charges.
        But this pity, this sadness for the dead Germans, which appears in the article .... it is all a matter. Some kind of vanity, the author for both those and those, but IMHO, there is nothing to choose, drowned and okay
        I personally do not feel sorry for them, they are us, and we are them, war.
        1. FC SKIF
          FC SKIF 26 March 2013 07: 04
          0
          I don’t feel sorry for them. Hooked a rag with a swastika on the mast - get a fist grenade.
      2. valerei
        valerei 25 March 2013 17: 15
        +4
        Definitely: If "Armenia" and was painted in international hospital colors, it would still be sunk by the Nazis. There are many examples of our ships.
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 25 March 2013 19: 05
          +3
          Quote: valerei
          If "Armenia" was painted in international hospital colors, it would still be sunk by the Nazis.

          "Armenia" was armed with anti-aircraft guns, so it was not a hospital ship, but an ambulance, and they are not protected by the Hague conventions.
  8. vlbelugin
    vlbelugin 25 March 2013 09: 38
    14
    Article minus. The ship is sailing under the enemy flag. The submariners do not know what is on the ship. If innocent people died, it is the fault of those who put them on the ship. The author has no right to belittle the exploits of our submariners. And in general, these strategists are too "smart" - now. Imagine yourself at the periscope. While. And make a decision. I think the author himself would have shot. And now the crocodile sheds tears. It is not the submarine commanders who are to blame, but those who started the war.
    Glory to our valiant submariners!
    1. Andrew-001
      Andrew-001 25 March 2013 15: 44
      +1
      Mr. Colonel, have you read the article?
      For I understood the article as follows: the author dug up somewhere and laid it out for all to see and discuss a list of 10 sunken ships with the largest number of dead. Phrases like "stupid and cowardly Rusish submariners only sunk sanitary ships" in the article I do not see point-blank. But the article repeatedly mentions that these ships: sailed under ordinary flags, had anti-aircraft weapons on board, there were soldiers or military cargo among the dead, etc. Any of these points, according to the author, already gives the right to sink these ships. And even the case of a sloop with Jewish refugees - the author specially emphasized -
      there is a certain probability that ... - “Struma” was blown up by mines
      . Although this sloop is sunk again in accordance with the rules.
      The only thing that is a pity is that the author did not indicate the primary reason why any submariners began to shoot ships "outwardly looking like civilians" - and it was still in the First World War, before the British began to use trap ships with camouflaged weapons from which they shot pop-up for inspection PL.
      1. ikrut
        ikrut 25 March 2013 16: 56
        +4
        Quote: Andrew-001
        the author somewhere dug up and put on public display and discussion a list of 10 drowned vessels with the largest number of dead

        And you, Mr. Lieutenant - do not be lazy and dig yourself into the information. Learn a lot of new things.
        Quote: Andrew-001
        the article repeatedly mentions that these vessels: sailed under ordinary flags, had anti-aircraft weapons on board,

        "Armenia HAD signs of the RED CROSS on board and on deck." And machine guns were delivered to it after the precedent of TWO shootings of completely unarmed Soviet hospital transports by German aviation.
        How can one generally compare the destruction of the hospital "Armenia" by bombers and the sinking of enemy transports of unknown purpose by our submariners?
        1. Andrew-001
          Andrew-001 25 March 2013 19: 18
          +2
          Quote: ikrut
          dig yourself

          Thank you, you are right, and I try to do so - do not take it as a mockery.
          Quote: ikrut
          How can you compare

          Both people died there and there. That's just the Germans were tried for violation of the Conventions, but we, as they did not violate, were not.
          As for some of the comments on the article - I'm just trying to bring to life some Urya-patriots who, unlike you, again - don't take it for flattery, instead of reading the article and thinking, they see only the words "Soviet", " sunk "," the Germans ", etc. - and on this they conclude that everyone is against them and it is urgent to get a checker and chop everyone without understanding.
          And in this article there are undoubtedly controversial points, and they should be pointed out. One headline is worth it. And for example, I pointed out why ALL submariners, violating the conventions, did not surface and sank "like unarmed ships" from a submerged position. And I expect the same approach from others, that is, clarifications like yours
          Quote: ikrut
          "Armenia HAD signs of the RED CROSS on board and on deck."

          And sometimes the meaning of comments comes down to a cry: All cattle, and we are infallible. Maybe so, but this must be explained and preferably with evidence.

          PS As for the actions of German aviation - in Kronstadt, too, all the signs were put on the hospital, and German aviation aimed precisely at the red cross on the roof of one of the buildings.
  9. Diesel
    Diesel 25 March 2013 10: 00
    +6
    Compared to the American bombing of cities, these are all flowers, and even those forced
  10. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus 25 March 2013 10: 02
    11
    It’s time to pass a law on criminal liability for denying the feat of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War and attempts to revise the outcome of the war. Something like the law on the denial of the Holocaust.
    What are liberal revisionists forgetting about burnt villages, bombed cities, hospital and civilian ships with refugees sunk and shot by fascist aircraft. We must block the attempts to instill a sense of guilt for our Victory!
  11. Kostjan
    Kostjan 25 March 2013 10: 05
    +5
    I didn’t read the article minus such crap a long time ago and couldn’t read it until the middle of the third paragraph where 6. “Armenia” (November 7, 1941, ≈5 thousand people died) and that’s all. And the point is not that the scribbler did not emphasize here who sank this hospital ship. I realized that once again they want to humiliate and insult us. To belittle the exploits of the heroes and somewhere even to de-characterize them altogether. If our fathers and grandfathers did what these conquerors did with the Slavic peoples, then even there would be no Baltic states, no Germans with the Japanese. And after that we are told you are uncivilized and wild. if civilization is to shoot women and children, to burn entire villages alive in barns, to poison in gas chambers, or to conduct experiments on them with bacteriological weapons, then I'm not a civilized savage. It’s time to kick such scribblers out of the country. angry
  12. Strashila
    Strashila 25 March 2013 10: 08
    +8
    Yes ... the author is clearly impressed by the numbers ... only he put EVERYTHING on the same line ... mixed cutlets and flies ... Wilhelm Gustloff the author quietly modestly says that he has been a training center for German submariners since 1943 ... and not for nothing, Britain highly appreciated this attack ... the reserve of the submarine fleet was actually destroyed and about 70 submarines did not go to sea.
    When the author read Wikipedia, and the article is clearly from there, then you need to read everything ... and not just what I wanted.
  13. avt
    avt 25 March 2013 10: 13
    +8
    A fussy article. And ours and yours, it will not work. negative We didn’t open any Pandora boxes, and we cannot hand over our heroes under any sauce! Enough of the Svanidze Chronicles from us.
  14. Gari
    Gari 25 March 2013 10: 22
    +3
    Admiral Karl Dönitz, commander of the submarine fleet (Befehlshaber der Unterseeboote), was the main lobbyist of submarines as a type of weapon in the Third Reich
    In the 1935-38, the Underwater Führer developed a new tactic for hunting enemy ships. Up to this point, submarines of all countries of the world acted alone. Dönitz, serving as commander of the destroyer flotilla, which attacks the enemy with a group, decided to use group tactics in submarine warfare. At first, he proposes a “curtain” method. A group of boats was walking in the sea in a chain. The boat that detected the enemy sent a report and attacked him, while the rest of the boats hurried to her aid.
    The next idea was the tactic of the “circle”, in which the boats were located around a certain part of the ocean. As soon as an enemy convoy or warship entered it, the boat, noticing the enemy entering the circle, began to lead the target, maintaining contact with the others, and they began to approach the doomed targets on all sides.
    But the wolf pack method, directly developed to attack large transport caravans, became the most famous. The name fully corresponded to its essence - this is how wolves hunt for their prey. After the discovery of the convoy, a group of submarines was parallel to its course. After the first attack, she then overtook the convoy and turned around for a new strike.
    During World War II (up to May 1945), German submariners sunk 2603 warships and Allied transport ships with a total displacement of 13,5 million tons. These include the 2 battleship, 6 aircraft carriers, 5 cruisers, 52 destroyers, and more 70 warships of other classes. At the same time about 100 killed thousands of sailors of the military and merchant fleet.
    As you can see no pity, I don’t think that anyone in Germany now sprinkles hair with ash
    Germany was the first to attack our country, the first to start drowning our civilian vessels, the example of Armenia, officially in Soviet times it was believed that about 5 thousand people were killed, at the beginning of the 7st century, estimates were increased to 10-XNUMX thousand people. Only eight were saved. The “Armenia” catastrophe in terms of the number of victims is one of the largest in world history.
    1. redwolf_13
      redwolf_13 25 March 2013 10: 37
      +4
      You still forgot one thing. After World War I, the laws of submarine warfare were adopted.
      The captain of the submarine must make sure that the ship belongs to the belligerent. To emerge to the surface, make sure that the ship is carrying military cargo, measures have been taken to save the crew, and only then sink the ship. So after Doenitz lost 3 boats according to these rules, he sent them very far and ordered to drown all the ships. And even the admiral was not convicted by the Hague court. A few words were enough about the American submarine fleet that fought on the tactics and instructions of the German fleet. Amer first used the shooting of the dead crew since the members of the sunken ship can tell the coordinates of the boat and the worst tactical number
      1. akm8226
        akm8226 25 March 2013 10: 48
        +9
        Laws, speak? And where, in what laws, is it written that it is possible to burn civilians of that very village of Khatyn? Where is it written that we can shoot our hospitals from the air, what has the Luftwaffe done more than once? Moreover, the hospitals clearly had red crosses in almost all cases.
        No mercy for the enemy. Not a single one. I don’t care who is on the ship - they are my enemies. This is quite enough for me. Once again, I did not start that war. I didn’t bomb Minsk and Kiev at four in the morning of June 22, but since they’ve already begun, get and sign. Marinesco and the others did absolutely right. In their place, I would have done the same.
        1. revnagan
          revnagan 25 March 2013 20: 45
          +5
          Quote: akm8226
          And where, in what laws, is it written that it is possible to burn civilians of that very village of Khatyn? Where is it written that we can shoot our hospitals from the air, what has the Luftwaffe done more than once? Moreover, the hospitals clearly had red crosses in almost all cases.

          I don’t remember which of the Nazi military commanders said: "We are not waging a knightly war with the Bolsheviks!" .Dot.
        2. NOBODY EXCEPT US
          NOBODY EXCEPT US 26 March 2013 01: 10
          +2
          Regarding Khatyn, there was a broadcast on TVC today about what was still hiding ..... Khatyn burned the formation of nationalists - Ukrainians some 118 division didn’t understand, they shot and burned the Belarusians, In the USSR it was hiding in view of the friendship of peoples such oh crap ...
      2. Alex
        Alex 2 September 2013 17: 58
        +2
        Quote: redwolf_13
        Yes, and the admiral [Doenitz] was not convicted by the Hague court.

        An interesting point. When Doenitz was to be tried at the Nuremberg Tribunal, he was charged with violating the rules of naval warfare. The English and American naval officers on the sidelines were gossiping that in this case they should be put on the dock next to Doenitz: they did not differ in their actions from the Germans. Yes, then the allies were more frank in their self-esteem.

        As for the rules, let those who invented them at the beginning of the century try to stick to them in the middle of the century. I somehow figured out how the English lords would observe their own rules of decency and treatment of ladies, if they had a suitcase in one hand, an open umbrella in the other, a lady holding a baby with one hand, and with a grocery bag the other while trying to get into a crowded bus at rush hour. Hyperbole, of course, but you know, not all rules are good.
  15. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 25 March 2013 10: 23
    +4
    All that information given in the article does not mean anything, but at the time of the sinking of these ships, there were some civilians on board. Who said that it was these ships that were not involved in the transfer of military and military cargo? None. Maybe someone notified submariners that it was on this flight that civilians were on board? However, if such a notice really existed, what of that? During the war, who is obliged to believe the enemy’s data, who would argue that under the cover of 100-200 civilians a huge ship would not carry several thousand tons of military cargo or several thousand soldiers.
    So it’s silly to put pressure on morality during the war, and after the war it’s already pointless
  16. akm8226
    akm8226 25 March 2013 10: 27
    +8
    Citizens - what the hell are you writing here! Viewed through the periscope - not covered by the periscope - WHAT DIFFERENCE? If Hitler hadn’t attacked the USSR, no one would have to be drowned or shot. I suppose everyone understands this? We did not start that war.
    Low-lying frank.
    1. NOBODY EXCEPT US
      NOBODY EXCEPT US 26 March 2013 01: 13
      0
      The war was a war, and following the results of Afghanistan, something about 4500 military personnel were convicted of war crimes, our Soviet guys ......
      1. vladsolo56
        vladsolo56 27 March 2013 05: 24
        0
        You may not be aware that there was no war in Afghanistan in the full sense of the word. There was a limited contingent presence. And the fact that the army is a cast of society and everything is happening in it as in society. And war crimes can be different, not necessarily directed against local residents. Theft and sale of military property is also considered by the military. A friend of mine served in the GDR and there was no war, but there were war crimes and military personnel were judged, though they were judged strictly enough, more strictly than in civilian life.
  17. shurup
    shurup 25 March 2013 10: 28
    17
    If each person evacuated from the Danzig district is given a Faustpatron and a carbine, then figure out how many of our soldiers will not return home.
    Marinesco sent the Wehrmacht division to the bottom. Perhaps because of this, my grandfather survived. For me, Marinesco is a hero, be he even a thrice drunkard and a womanizer.
    We did not call the Germans to our place, and the Japanese too on Sakhalin.
    1. svp67
      svp67 25 March 2013 19: 27
      +3
      Quote: shurup
      Marinesco sent the Wehrmacht division to the bottom. Perhaps because of this, my grandfather survived. For me, Marinesco is a hero, be he even a thrice drunkard and a womanizer.



      Yes, this is the tragedy of the war, that the majority of those killed on the "Gustlav" are women and children, but Marinesko cannot be blamed for this, Gustlav was a military transport, which means the legal prey of our submarines.
  18. chehywed
    chehywed 25 March 2013 10: 28
    14
    The infamous little article. How can you put Marinesco and the He-111 pilot in one row? And all the reservations of the author that they say the war and everyone can make a mistake lead to an equal sign between them. Ugh disgusting.
  19. Slevinst
    Slevinst 25 March 2013 10: 28
    +5
    I can’t understand something, war, a submarine, a goal, the Captain thinks, and suddenly there civilians are swimming, you need to land to see. comes closer to the ship and then bang a torpedo on it, what kind of nonsense ???? There is a WAR IS AN ENEMY SHIP, that he is lucky to spit there, he is an enemy! he can transport civilians along with weapons or military units, the ENEMY SHIP and WAR are two fundamental factors of that time, I fully support our submariners, and this is not revenge for compatriots, this is a war where you need to kill all enemies before they kill you, No mistakes in wartime, the mistake could not be considered the sinking of such a ship on which enemy units could be transported that could then kill your compatriots.
  20. Nayhas
    Nayhas 25 March 2013 10: 34
    +7
    As far as I know, no one in the world particularly condemns the accidental death of civilians. The bombing of a military plant will definitely lead to the death of civilians both at the plant and those living in the neighborhood, while the bomb can go to school and the hospital. The bombing of the railway junction will also lead to the death of civilians using the railway. But no one says that such objects cannot be destroyed. 2 The World War is terrible because it erased the line separating civilians from people in uniform. They drowned transports with refugees, it happened, but how does the submariner know what they are driving there, he is not visible. No one bears responsibility for this, and should not. Only in front of himself, in front of his conscience.
    1. Santa Fe
      25 March 2013 20: 08
      -4
      Shouldn't have appointed "Gustloff" the Attack of the Century, a very careless decision of Soviet propaganda. It is not surprising that such a "slippery" topic has caused an incessant dispute, only defiling the memory of the submariners.

      Submariner No. 1 and Attack of the Century - Soviet polytechnologists as if deliberately teased residents of Germany and the entire Western world, exposing our submarine as bloodthirsty animals

      As if no other heroes were found, they necessarily chose the sinking of the passenger liner, half full of civilians - even if it was de facto a military transport, with anti-aircraft guns and military personnel on board. But the very image of the 10 deck liner plunging into the abyss is a bad example for promoting the exploits of the Navy. That's why there is an endless debate on 70 years.


      According to the actions of Marinesco - everything is correct. He deserved his order.
      The mistake was made by Soviet propagandists who advertised this incident to the whole world. As if there were no other bright moments in the history of the Navy of the USSR
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 25 March 2013 21: 49
        +6
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Soviet polytechnologists seemed to deliberately tease the inhabitants of Germany and the entire Western world, exposing our submarine as bloodthirsty animals

        Something you have, the farther into the forest the meaner the parisians.
        Say the people of Germany were upset, but it’s sad but what can you do about the war, the truth was the war when the Dozen wolf packs hunted in the Atlantic, received orders and competed in who drew more tons, the most important question is what kind of vessels (passenger transport) are they I didn’t stand, I think the residents of Germany also need to remember this.
        And the whole underworld must be silent in a rag for their crimes, which are tens, if not hundreds of times greater than the victims of the civilian population of the attack of the century.
        Your article reminded me of Guskov's film "4 Days in May". Why should we seek reconciliation, it is with us that we should seek reconciliation for the fact that they burned down our cities and villages and destroyed many, many civilians.
        There was one concentration camp in Belarus, its essence was to breed typhus. People lived on earth without any dwellings in winter and summer (women, children), but we are Russians, Slavs, anything is possible with us, this is a scientific experiment of enlightened Europe.
        1. Santa Fe
          26 March 2013 00: 17
          -4
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          Say the people of Germany were upset, but sad but what can you do about the war

          Honestly, do not care about the morale of the inhabitants of Germany
          But why make Soviet sailors bloodthirsty idiots?

          Appointing the sinking of the "Gustloff" the Attack of the Century, and Marinesko as Submariner # 1, Soviet propaganda at the official level confirmed that the Soviet Navy was engaged only in sinking passenger ships.

          As if there were no more beautiful and bright feats. For example, tsarist propaganda made the right choice - the Varangian. ship for all time!
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          Why should we seek reconciliation, it is with us that we should seek reconciliation for the fact that we burned our cities and villages

          It is not a matter of reconciliation. It's about the image.
          The terrible image of the Soviet Navy should be associated with great victories and invincible power

          the sinking of "Gustloff" is a very bad example, no matter how many anti-aircraft guns and cadets there were, the main thing is that the very image of a sinking 10-deck titanic named "Wilhelm Gustloff" does not fit well with sea exploits

          The puncture of Soviet propaganda was subsequently used to the full to discredit the Soviet sailors. Marinesco did everything right, ideologists made a mistake
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 26 March 2013 01: 30
            +2
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Appointing the sinking of the "Gustloff" the Attack of the Century, and Marinesko as Submariner # 1, Soviet propaganda at the official level confirmed that the Soviet Navy was engaged only in sinking passenger ships.

            You have repeated this many times in the comments. However, this did not become a fact.
            Are you aware that Marinesco received the GSS in 1990? Posthumously. When they remembered him
            1. Santa Fe
              26 March 2013 02: 29
              -4
              Quote: Spade
              Are you aware that Marinesco received the GSS in 1990? Posthumously. When they remembered him

              I did not pay attention. Thanks for the valuable addition to the discussion.

              Then everything is put in its place - the USSR Navy did the right thing: the K-21 and S-56 were recognized as real "official" feats.
              Lunin and Shchedrin - serious moromani

              K-21 memorial in Severomorsk



              С-56 memorial in Vladivostok


              Marinesko -Submariner #! and stories about "Attack of the Century" - someone's ideological sabotage at the end of the Soviet Union.
              The Soviet Navy did not seem to attach much importance to the S-13 attack. Drowned the young man.
              And figs with Gustlov, we have feats and abruptly
          2. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 26 March 2013 19: 13
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            The puncture of Soviet propaganda was subsequently used to the full to discredit the Soviet sailors. Marinesco did everything right, ideologists made a mistake

            It seems to have understood your point of view.
          3. Alex
            Alex 2 September 2013 18: 10
            +2
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN (1)
            Appointing the sinking of the "Gustloff" the Attack of the Century, and Marinesko as Submariner # 1, Soviet propaganda at the official level confirmed that the Soviet Navy was engaged only in sinking passenger ships.

            Somehow it turns out strange. Their Princes, Krechmera and others buried helpless merchant ships with merchant marine sailors in packs - and even heroes of our liberals sail in heroes, and our Marinesko drowned military vehicles (whoever sailed on it - they didn’t introduce themselves) —and he is a fiend of hell, a product of the Soviet ideologies, and generally the stafnik and the immoral type. Is it any wonder that we are not held for people and laugh in the face ????
            1. BM-13
              BM-13 4 August 2014 16: 39
              +3
              Quote: Alex
              Is it any wonder that we are not held for people and laugh in the face ????

              Bravo!
  21. Avenger711
    Avenger711 25 March 2013 10: 37
    +3
    Go in the ass, the sinking of ships with their own prisoners is a typical phenomenon, it is not written on vehicles that they are carrying. And we don’t care about all kinds of civilian victims, especially since they are usually associated with a lack of identification.

    But "Gustlof" is a pity. It would have been confiscated after the War, but not a single German whore or cub on board is sorry for a single drop.
  22. Gari
    Gari 25 March 2013 10: 39
    +5
    Alexander Ivanovich Marinesko (January 2 [15], 1913, Odessa [1] [2] - November 25, 1963, Leningrad) - commander of the Red Banner Submarine S-13 of the Red Banner Submarine Brigade of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet, captain of the 3rd rank, known by " Attack of the Century. " Hero of the Soviet Union. Heinz Schön, a disaster researcher] concludes that the liner was a military target and its sinking was not a war crime, because: ships intended for transporting refugees, hospital ships should have been marked with the corresponding signs - a red cross, could not wear camouflage, could not go in the same convoy along with military vessels. On board could not be any military cargo, stationary and temporarily placed air defense weapons, artillery guns or other similar means.
    In legal terms, the "William Gustloff" was an auxiliary ship of the Navy, which allowed six thousand refugees to board. All responsibility for their lives, from the moment they embarked on a warship, rested with the relevant officials of the German navy. Thus, Gustloff was the legitimate military target of the Soviet submariners. Although people are always pitiful and always innocent people die in war through the fault of politicians.
    Alexander Marinesko- Hero!
    Glory to the Hero!
  23. Hort
    Hort 25 March 2013 10: 53
    +1
    wars have always been accompanied by losses. Moreover, the Second was generally a total war. Therefore, it is not clear about the "terrible" victories. about nothing article ... Is that so, for general development and statistics.
    Well, the people have already spoken about the right to judge the winners, I won’t repeat myself.
  24. radar75
    radar75 25 March 2013 10: 57
    +2
    The author correctly raises the question of the "bloody essence of war". This question will remain as long as there are wars on earth. I am afraid that it is impossible to solve it without ending the wars.
  25. sens17
    sens17 25 March 2013 11: 02
    +4
    What nonsense .. top in the number of victims.
    If we recall how many civil and merchant ships were sunk by German submarines and British ships in all oceans, then we will obviously close this "hit parade".
    In fact, this is just a search for negative extremes of statistics with the goal of not instilling the truth, but instilling a sense of guilt.
  26. Nightcrawler
    Nightcrawler 25 March 2013 11: 09
    +3
    What a provocative article .. Everyone is trying to denigrate our people ... It is strange that they do not write about the German prisoners of war camps, they do not write about Khatyn and the shooting of our inhabitants by the Germans, they do not write about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they do not write about napalm and Vietnam ... The list is endless ..worldly ..
  27. Orik
    Orik 25 March 2013 11: 54
    +3
    Who's guilty? In fact - no one! L-3 was ordered to sink the German ships leaving Danzig. The Soviet submariners did not have any means of detection, except for the primitive periscope and the sonar post. It was impossible to determine the nature of the cargo and the purpose of the vessel with their help.


    So why this article, do you want to write write about the Germans, the British. How many examples of the destruction of Soviet hospital and other civilian courts in 1941! Why do the site admins skip, because this is akin to Western propaganda!
  28. svp67
    svp67 25 March 2013 12: 15
    +2
    A special investigation was carried out on German courts and it was proved that they were all legal trophies ... So there are no complaints against our sailors. And there’s nothing to pour from empty to empty ...
  29. wulf66
    wulf66 25 March 2013 12: 39
    +2
    Article MINUS - another liberoid abomination.
  30. jayich
    jayich 25 March 2013 12: 44
    +2
    Oh, something a lot of participants appeared to the Nazis and other pi ... himself
    It’s a pity that they weren’t burned at 45, all of these fascists in their own concentration camps, I would have sent them to the blast furnace, one and all.
    Thank the granfather for the victory!!! Eternal memory to our old people for the bright sky above their heads !!!
  31. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 25 March 2013 12: 55
    +4
    "The first categorical opinion: this is a lie of Western propaganda. The Soviet Navy is clean as a tear, and everything that offends the honor of the Navy must be classified in the archives for a period of up to 2145.

    The second opinion is more tactful: were the victims German? Serves them right! "


    No, there is still a third opinion: it combines these two, plus it justifies everything for our submariners from the side of military art, and from the side of international law, and from the point of view of expediency in wartime. All attacks were remarkable military successes, no one drowned explicit civilian ships, all the sunken ones were MILITARY vehicles, that is, legitimate, and, moreover, the most valuable loot. What good is it from one sunk destroyer, but a sunken transport carrying equipment, manpower, strategic raw materials is the most valuable trophy. Nobody in the West sheds tears over the vessels sunk by the Germans with children evacuated from Leningrad on Ladoga. Therefore, the title of the article: terrible victories ..., incorrect and dishonest, article -.
  32. Sevastopol
    Sevastopol 25 March 2013 13: 14
    +2
    Enemy ships? Yes. What other questions might there be? The Germans did not disdain even to bomb our medical trains. And then what questions can be at all?
  33. viruskvartirus
    viruskvartirus 25 March 2013 13: 14
    0
    I don't quite understand why the author was subjected to such an "anaphime"? ... What did he write wrong? That war is a terrible thing? That war at sea is terrible? That everyone was "good"? All "distinguished themselves" .... to say that it is not correct to drown transports with people, so these people will arrive at the port and take up arms or create military equipment. This war should NOT BEGIN, and not wrinkle your nose and then talk about humanism. For me personally, the war at sea raises much fewer questions than the bombing of cities, and the number of victims is not comparable ...
  34. zmey
    zmey 25 March 2013 13: 26
    +1
    On a purely informative article, does not pull, everything is casual.
    and some far-fetched conclusions ?!
    1. "Russians" some not good sinking auxiliary vessels of the Navy (transports) with the military and refugees
    2. English pilots drowned a ship with a white flag and running people in striped clothes, which seems to be normal.
    Strange thoughts after the article and some strange conclusions - liberal or something !!!
    And the conclusion can be only one - non-compliance by the parties with the rules of safe navigation (ships must be in the appropriate coloring).
  35. Castor oil
    Castor oil 25 March 2013 13: 39
    +4
    After reading, there was a filthy residue - the author was trying to achieve this? Like "" ".. nothing diminishes the heroic account of Soviet submariners, but they say judge for yourself ..." ""
    Ugh! How much can you try to change the mind, ruin the history and doubt the exploits of the people who defended their homeland in the most bloody and terrible massacre in the history of mankind.
    Correctly noticed - an attempt to trolling stealthily with a pretty face mine.
  36. honest jew
    honest jew 25 March 2013 13: 41
    13
    What is it that comrades do? It turns out that the Soviet submariners did not comply with the Geneva Convention! It turns out the Russian Ivanes drowned the poor German people! directly the very victims of fascism! Who then riveted the Germans tanks, guns, planes? Probably captured Russians, and the victims of fascism, the German people were poor unfortunate refugees! And an honest, noble German soldier (not like the beasts Ivan) respected the Geneva Convention! And 30 million Soviet citizens who were tortured to death, starved to death in the besieged Leningrad, raped, robbed, burned alive, are a kind of petty prank! It is still an easy death for them to be sunk by Soviet submariners ... It was necessary to remove live skin from these bastards ...
    1. Son
      Son 26 March 2013 08: 39
      +1
      And, in general ... Returning to the essence of the problem, who attacked whom ..? Did we come to them ..?!
  37. Suvorov000
    Suvorov000 25 March 2013 13: 48
    +1
    Comrade Stalin, for such an article, he would pull the veins one at a time so that the author would feel that it’s worthless to shout against his people, when the war is over then show peacefulness, and during the war put morality in your ass and obey orders
  38. Strey
    Strey 25 March 2013 13: 49
    +2
    Soviet submariners acted in accordance with the law of wartime. I saw the enemy, destroying him. Not we all started. Honor and respect to Soviet submariners !!!
  39. SASCHAmIXEEW
    SASCHAmIXEEW 25 March 2013 13: 57
    +1
    The entire article from the series: we will review the results of WW2, then it will be that we bombed Hiroshima from Nagasaki, and the Reichstag and Berlin took amers! Who does not know history will believe! It is necessary to jam such "authors" in word and deed! Ovsky singers!
  40. Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 25 March 2013 14: 09
    +1
    The author probably had little time to calculate how many of our ships sank the Americans. And indeed, Americans and Europeans drowned civilian ships with ease starting from World War I. None of which are particularly tormented.
  41. rubber_duck
    rubber_duck 25 March 2013 14: 11
    +1
    They had orders to destroy enemy ships and ships - and they fulfilled their duty to the end. It would be better if they did not do this

    What are you saying?
  42. RPD
    RPD 25 March 2013 14: 13
    +1
    what did the author want ??
  43. akm8226
    akm8226 25 March 2013 14: 18
    +5
    No, I'm just shocked ... well, on some other site, but HERE? So many renegades, let's face it ... just a shock. Is this the result of the exam? The result of eating Big Macs? What questions can there be about this? For the number of innocently killed Russians, and not only, gentlemen from Germany cannot be washed forever and ever. Personally, my position here is unambiguous - everyone is at the bottom. All to one. Indiscriminately. The aggressor must be made aware of the erroneousness of his behavior - and it does not matter who it is - civilians or soldiers. Victory - it is forged in the rear. Those same civilians make weapons, which then kill our soldiers. If I, as commander of a submarine, had to make a decision on the attack, knowing that the transport was civilian, I would not hesitate for a second - just an attack. Because I saw and know what the Nazis did in the occupied territories. No mercy - all to one - to the bottom.
    All.
    More than 3,14 there's nothing to worry about.
    1. Santa Fe
      25 March 2013 17: 35
      -7
      Quote: akm8226
      If I, as the submarine commander, had to make a decision on the attack, knowing obviously that the transport was civilian, I would not hesitate for a second - just an attack

      In this case, are the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?
      1. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 25 March 2013 22: 42
        +1
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        In this case, are the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?

        Until now, the Americans keep the Japanese, and the Germans, in a position "on all fours" and they do not need any reconciliation, I suppose that the amers do not even have such a concept.
        And we need to restore order in our house, when we restore everything and reconcile.
        1. Santa Fe
          26 March 2013 00: 22
          -5
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          Until now, the Americans keep the Japanese, and the Germans in a "on all fours" position

          come on.
          American manufacturers groan under the yoke of Japanese and German technology (the same auto industry)
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          and they don’t need any kind of reconciliation

          what kind of reconciliation are we talking about?
      2. postman
        postman 28 March 2013 09: 19
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

        In this case, are the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?

        The answer is given in the "CHARTER OF THE INTERNATIONAL MILITARY TRIBUNAL
        FOR COURT AND PUNISHMENT OF MAJOR MILITARY CRIMINALS
        AXIS EUROPEAN COUNTRIES (Adopted in London 8 August 1945 year)
        and the Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 concerning the protection of victims of international armed conflict (Protocol I).
        Typically 30 days from the date of publication.
        ANY QUESTIONS? (BY DATE)

        THERE ARE DISSENTING (GERMANS):
        1. The law has no retroactive effect (why Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill did not publish this norm in 1939?)!
        2.Who are the judges? (and if Marinesku + some facts of rape on the territory of Prussia are 100% "extinguished" ONLY ONLY children's donor camps in the Baltics, then what about carpet Leipzig, Dresden, Hamburg, Hanover, and so on?)
        And also PARTLY ANSWERED here is the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC)
        ICC Member States (ratifying - greensignatories but not ratifying - yellow) as of October 1, 2009
  44. nnz226
    nnz226 25 March 2013 14: 19
    +6
    I recommend comparing the dates of the sinking of "Armenia" and a bunch of Soviet transports, some with Red Crosses on the sides, and all kinds of "Gustlovs" .... The Germans simply received a "return" in 1945 for their actions in 1941. And women and children on board drowned German ships: this is how Russian women and children in 1941 did not send husbands, sons and brothers to the eastern lands in order to acquire a land plot and a couple of dozen Slavic slaves. And the Germans sent, and "Heil" was shouting to the Fuehrer, and for this, too, you have to pay, and with the blood of women and children, and for the "feats" of the Wehrmacht to destroy "subhumans" also have to pay. Indeed, of the 27 million killed in the USSR in this WAR, about 9 million male soldiers died at the fronts. And the remaining 18 million are civilians of the country, women, children, the elderly. And the account of losses of 18 million we have against several thousand drowned by Soviet submariners, speaks for itself, the Germans should still be left ...
    1. Santa Fe
      25 March 2013 17: 36
      0
      Quote: nnz226
      and for this, too, you have to pay, with a female and child’s blood

      First, the mustache grow, a juvenile dictator))))
    2. Santa Fe
      26 March 2013 01: 01
      -6
      Quote: nnz226
      and you also have to pay for this, moreover, with a blood coat for women and children

      first graduate from school, the future dictator))))
  45. Humpty
    Humpty 25 March 2013 14: 25
    +3
    Satisfied with the result of attacks by Soviet submariners.
    To the author - do not dare to attach your liberal villainy to the feat of Soviet heroes.
  46. RPD
    RPD 25 March 2013 14: 40
    +3
    "Ie, you confirm - between a social-nationalist and a communist, in general, the difference is not great ..?" Think you asked a smart question? with a trick? :) here's your answer - we don't think so and there is no equality between a social-nationalist and a communist, these are diametrically opposite things, but the coca-Cola washed brains cannot understand this
  47. Vanek
    Vanek 25 March 2013 14: 44
    0
    I agree, war is a submarine is a target. And who is there and what is there, on the ship ........... well, from under the water you won’t especially understand.
  48. akm8226
    akm8226 25 March 2013 14: 49
    0
    Quote: Slobozhanin
    Next, do not bother. Personally with you and in a similar tone, there is nothing to talk about.
    ..a I thought - there’s a decent forum ...


    It’s not in vain for you, sir, a gray epaulet, oh not in vain.
  49. Fitter65
    Fitter65 25 March 2013 14: 50
    +3
    There is talk in Russia: the one who sowed the wind will reap the storm. Before talking about how many civilians died during the attacks of our submariners, I would like to ask our ALLIES — how many civilians did you KILL during the bombing of Dresden, Leipzig, Munich? How many non-combatants died during the bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? How many children, women, patients and the elderly died from German attacks on ships in the Tallinn crossing? Just answer you pisyacifists - how many pregnant women died on June 22, at exactly 4 hours in the city of Brest. And in other Soviet (then Soviet ) cities that were bombed by civilized German pilots, or German artillery men educated at European institutes, smashed from their cannons? Let these bastards say thank you that our grandfathers, carrying their retribution, left their children, wives and mothers to live, although they destroyed ours. Do not believe it? ask the Jews, they know who and how many these cultural warriors destroyed. Only unlike us they do not allow to mock the ashes of their ancestors. And we allow ... WHEN!?
  50. Ares1
    Ares1 25 March 2013 15: 21
    0
    Truth ... What is truth? For some, the truth depends on the side of finding - where I am, there is truth. And I disagree with the primitive (according to the author) judgment about the middle of the truth. Just in historical science, if you do not take the side of finding the reasoning, then the truth is in the middle. And, as for the specific events of the destruction of these ships, let's ask ourselves the question - how many civilian objects and the population were destroyed by aviation on land, and not at sea? What does any aviation from the warring parties? These are not participants in ground combat operations who see children and women in front of them and ... burn them from flamethrowers. And how to look at it - wasn’t the damage in street battles to our grandfathers from the side of the children from the Hitler Youth? Or did our glorious pioneers not avenge the Fritz? The army and the army, so that orders are not discussed, but executed.