"Mad Max" from "Tiger": how not to get carried away with armoring

Recommended composition of the additional armor kit for the Tigr-M vehicle. Source: "Material and technical support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation", November 2024

Is there much armor?

Artifacts of the domestic art of naming equipment never cease to amaze. We ask you to love and favor - ASN-233115-0000010-10 "Tiger-M". The vehicle was first presented at the Army forum in 2023 and differed from the serial vehicle by a set of additional armor. More precisely, it did not differ, but shone throughout the entire Patriot park. It turned out to be a kind of "Mad Max", only in a careful factory execution. In some publications, the new product received a flattering name - the super-protected "Tiger". According to some sources, several vehicles were purchased by the Ministry of Defense, but since 2023, the tightly armored vehicle has not appeared to the general public.

Meanwhile, specialists from the 21st Research Institute of Military Automotive Equipment in Bronnitsy have carefully studied the potential capabilities of the Tigers clad in armor. The results were published in the journal "Material and Technical Support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation" in November 2024. The authors are research associates from the Research Institute in Bronnitsy Sergei Zavyalov, Natalya Kudryaeva and Boris Kornilov. According to these materials, in addition to testing in the Moscow region, "experimental operation was organized on the basis of military units located in the Western and Southern military districts."

ASN-233115-0000010-10 "Tiger-M" at "Army-2023"

The first glance at the Tiger-M with a set of additional armoring gives rise to several thoughts. The first is that the vehicle clearly appeared as a response to the realities of a special operation. The authors of the project proposed an alternative to armoring combat vehicles with improvised means. As is known, at the beginning of the conflict, not only sheets of rolled steel, which are of dubious value, were used, but even tree trunks.

The situation is somewhat different now. If in 2022 – early 2023 the main threat was bullets and shrapnel, now drones with cumulative grenades. Slatted platoon screens are sufficient against such a threat. Maybe that is why the additional armor kit with sheet steel did not become popular in the troops? But first things first.

The second thought that comes to mind after getting to know the vehicle is the understanding of the recklessness of some decisions. The most controversial are the armor screens for the front and rear wheels. The decision seems logical if the improved Tiger-M intends to move exclusively on roads with hard surfaces. Some commentators hinted at this, predicting a career for Mad Max as a protector of military convoys. Otherwise, the additional armor kit, which can be mounted on any Tiger, was already somewhat outdated at the time of its appearance.

The kit includes six items: armor screens for protecting the engine compartment on the front guard, armor screen for the central part of the hood, armor screens for protecting the front shield above the hood, armor screens for protecting the rear wheels, armor screens for the side doors, armor screens for protecting the front wheels and the engine compartment. The authors did not provide anything to protect against impacts from above, but over time this became the number one threat.

An example of field armoring of the Tiger vehicle

During the tests at the 21st Research Institute, military engineers treated the noticeably heavier armored vehicle with all severity. The tests provided an answer to how the vehicle behaves in difficult road conditions. According to the article:

"The average technical speed of movement on various types of roads was analyzed, the fuel efficiency and power reserve were determined. In addition, the convenience of boarding and disembarking, the placement of the crew in the habitable compartment in gear, the level of visibility from the driver's seat, as well as the evacuability and evacuability of the vehicle, and reliability indicators were assessed."

Child of compromise

It is clear from the report that the extra ton of unladen weight was not given to the Tiger-M for nothing. Tests on wet soils, that is, on elementary mud, showed the inability of the armored car in armor to climb even a 10-degree slope. And when it came to swampy and waterlogged rough terrain, the vehicle gave up completely. The additional ton of armor had a negative impact on the average technical speed of the vehicle. Let us recall that this concept means the average speed on a certain segment, taking into account all forced stops and downtime. If the Tiger with additional armor fought alone, then the average technical speed would not be so relevant for it. But when the armored car is forced to work as part of a convoy, its lag in average speed due to the overload of armor turned out to be critical. Especially when it came to the route on broken terrain.

The additional protection of bulletproof glass deserves a separate comment: "The presence of protective curtains on the windshields and side windows is impractical due to the large number of blind spots". And really, what did the developers expect when they left narrow slits in the windshield? The crew would not die from a point-blank machine gun, but would crash from the driver's chronic "blindness"?

History The controversial armored shields on the wheels continued when the Tiger was driven into the mud. In the free wheel niches, the tread, even clogged with mud, had a chance to clean itself - chunks of soil simply flew around the area. On the experimental vehicle, the mud was carefully compacted under the shields, seriously limiting mobility, and sometimes leading to a forced stop. But even without mud, the shields caused problems. On rough terrain, they touched the ground with all the ensuing consequences. At a decent speed, the units threatened to fall off altogether. It can be assumed that the wheel shields had another unpleasant function - they did not allow the shock wave from the mine to freely leave the wheel arch. The Tiger compares favorably with its analogues precisely in its solid anti-mine resistance. Eyewitnesses even talk about anti-tank mines that destroyed the entire front of the vehicle, but the crew remained alive. The shields on the front wheels threatened to worsen the consequences of the explosion.

The researchers' fair criticism was directed at the layout of the armor plates. For some unknown reason, the authors decided not to armor the troop compartment with additional armor. At the same time, the control compartment was awarded increased protection. The 21st Research Institute pointed out that this was insufficiently and recommended that the troop compartment be reinforced.

"Tiger" in the "Mad Max" version during testing in Bronnitsy. Source: "Material and Technical Support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation", November 2024

In the results of the work of specialists from Bronnitsy on the product ASN-233115-0000010-10 "Tiger-M" one can find the following recommendations:

"Consider the possibility of reducing the weight of the KDB by optimizing its composition and using new materials (as an option, it is possible to exclude the armor screen for protecting the front shield above the hood and reduce the size of the armor screens for the side doors); study the issue of changing the design and reducing the size of the armor screens for protecting the wheels; study the issue of changing the design of the armor screens for protecting the headlights with the ability to fix the armor screens in the open position at night; study the issue of excluding the protective curtains for the side windows; in order to improve visibility from the driver's seat and eliminate cases of loss of visibility due to damage to the windshields, it is necessary to study the possibility of installing external video surveillance cameras with image output to the monitor."

Summary diagram of the results of a comparative analysis of individual technical characteristics and operational properties of the Tiger-M vehicle and the Tiger-M with additional armor. Source: "Material and Technical Support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation", November 2024.

Apparently, there is no talk of any development of the proposals of the 21st Research Institute. The agenda is protection from drones, and shields on the wheels and armored screens on the headlights do not pose any threat to these products. At the same time, one cannot but agree that there is nothing wrong with additional armoring of the "Tiger". Only it must be implemented with a set of measures - forcing the engine, strengthening the transmission and suspension, as well as installing anti-drone protection elements. The result will be a vehicle of a new quality level, which can in no way be called a "Tiger". Technical happiness lies in the balance of all parameters, which the standard Russian armored car fully meets.

Based on the article by Zavyalov S. A., Kudryaeva N. S., Kornilov B. A. "New armor for the Tiger. Results of operational tests of the Tiger-M armored car with an additional armor kit" in the journal "Material and technical support of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation", November 2024.

Comments

[The popuas]

It is not necessary to armor, but to send more to the troops... Everything is better, even without additional armor, a tin "loaf" on the front!

[Lapa]

It is not necessary to reserve, but to send more to the troops...

There is no point in throwing away what has fallen into the hands of the troops. It is money down the drain.
You need to be patient. The evolution of armored vehicles is not a quick process.
For example, in the 70s, the rescue from mines and landmines in South Africa gave birth to a new class of armored vehicles from the Bedford RL truck, first into the freak Hippo APC, then into the normal first-born Buffel, and then into a grandiose brood of MRAPs of all sizes and numbers of wheels.
There is currently an active rethinking of protection against new threats and a variety of options are being tried, even the most idiotic ones at first glance.
He who does nothing makes no mistakes.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This does not look like a rethinking. Before the start of the SVO, who did not exhibit samples of DUBM. They especially focused on machine guns. Probably, it was possible to count about fifteen samples. But when a DUBM capable of fighting enemy drones was needed, the designers and manufacturers suddenly disappeared from sight.
Drones will still have to be shot down, hit with shrapnel, and caught with net throwers.
But where are these samples now, when they are sorely needed?

[Askold65]

Quote from Lapa

There is currently an active rethinking of protection against new threats and a variety of options are being tried, even the most idiotic ones at first glance.

I saw photos from LBS, where they additionally install bundles of wire on anti-drone sheets, sticking out with their ends in all directions. Apparently, so that the drone gets entangled in them during the approach.

[Lapa]

I saw photos from LBS

In turn, the Ukrainian Armed Forces cover pickups with rubber. They claim that it helps against discharges. The procedure costs $4

[Konnick]

Meanwhile, specialists from the 21st Research Institute

They conduct pointless tests of the "creations" of pointless engineers... Both seem to be involved

[Lapa]

They conduct pointless tests of the "creations" of pointless engineers...

This is a normal process, by the way. You won't know until you try. For example, in the 70s, the tires on the Buffel APC were filled with water, adding about 500 kg per wheel to the weight of the vehicle. As a result, they abandoned centralized tire inflation and massively switched to polyethylene liners.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Konnick

They conduct pointless tests of the "creations" of pointless engineers...

So if we don't conduct tests, then dozens of war correspondents will immediately spread the "burning truth" that the gold-shouldered enemies are oppressing the super-necessary and super-useful set of additional armor for no reason at all.

[Konnick]

It looks like some general wanted to travel in comfort and safety. And even tanks are sometimes powerless to resist drones. I don't think this is an initiative development, most likely the desires of the Ministry of Defense.

[Iskanderwantstoknowyour_location]

How useful is this upgrade? doesn't seem like a big difference to a normal variant.

[Aristarkh Verkhozin]

Meanwhile, soldiers are using GAZ-69, Muscovites, and loaves.

[Konnick]

Meanwhile, soldiers are using GAZ-69, Muscovites, and loaves.

A compact vehicle is needed, simplified and easy to repair. During the Great Patriotic War, auto factories produced trucks with one headlight, with brakes only on the rear axle, with canvas curtains instead of doors, with sides that did not fold down... they made them as cheap as possible, what prevents them from doing this now, perhaps private ownership of the means of production. And turning every vehicle into a "tank" is impractical. And for the Chief of the General Staff, such a "wonder weapon from a tiger" will do... drive through Moscow traffic jams... a clearly visible target.

[The popuas]

Stop talking about WWII already... wrong time, completely different war...! Would you go to zero in a car with a tarpaulin cover!?

[Konnick]

Would you drive to zero in a car with a tarpaulin cover!?

I would go, because I need a car that is fast and maneuverable on rough terrain, and not a turtle that is easy to aim at.

[The popuas]

Then a motorcycle would be better...

[Konnick]

Then a motorcycle would be better...

Better, but a buggy is also possible...

[would]

And these already exist and they are made in so many places. They are called combat buggies.

The only nuance is that the Tiger will not replace the buggy, and the buggy will not replace the Tiger. These are fundamentally different machines.

[EpIvIaK]

And yet, everything depends on the details. The general formulation is soldiers, SVO, such machines. The conclusion is that it's brutal, horrible. But maybe in their situations at the moment it's okay to use it. Without justifying if there are serious mistakes and the danger is really zero.

[Demon]

Would soldiers exchange their crafts for the Tiger? Most likely yes, so it's all due to the lack of more suitable equipment. The presence of non-all-wheel drive equipment is very surprising, it is very limited in movement in the conditions of the SVO.

[Vadim S]

Again endless tests and recommendations! Finally, do something serially, even if it's crooked and scary, but a lot! Why is everything only in single samples? Why is everything so difficult and slow for us?

[K-50]

At the same time, one cannot but agree that there is nothing wrong with additional armoring of the Tiger. Only it must be implemented with a set of measures - forcing the engine, strengthening the transmission and suspension, as well as installing anti-drone protection elements. The result will be a machine of a new quality level, which cannot be called a Tiger.

Maybe it’s easier to create something new?
Simply, if we start changing one thing, let's say we make the car heavier, this will entail the need for a more powerful engine and suspension. Then the brakes and tires will "crawl out", and the suspension elements will require strengthening.
So this circle is almost endless, and will ultimately lead to a car that is not capable of moving even on paved roads.
You can try to gain weight by reducing the dimensions.

[Vlad2012]

As far as I understand, the lattice and platoon screen are two different screens. The lattice should cripple the cumulative funnel with about a 50/50 probability and prevent the standard activation, and the platoon is simply a hope that the cumulative jet will not reach the armor, and the high-explosive effect will be weakened. But if the grenade does detonate on the lattice screen, then the bulletproof armor will be broken through due to the high-explosive effect.
In addition to drones with cumulative grenades, there are a ton of high-explosive fragmentation equipment. That's the kind of armor that will work against them.

As for maneuverability and speed, on the one hand, the road network in the LPR and DPR is one of the longest in Ukraine. On the other hand, you have to drive with an eye on mines. So this opportunity also needs to be implemented safely.

[papas-57]

More, more, more armor. That's so good. How come it doesn't move? Take off the fucking armor.

[Tektor]

On the roofs of all transport and combat vehicles used in areas with a high risk of kamikaze UAVs, I would place not so much armor as net-throwers. And each infantryman should have an all-angle net-thrower loaded in his under-barrel grenade launcher with a supercam video sight and scanning narrow-beam microphones.

[air wolf]

Idiocy, what don't you like about the BTR-70, 80, 82? You can find them in warehouses. We upgrade them, install a diesel engine and off we go. Ukrainians

[Aristarkh Verkhozin]

Quote: air wolf

Idiocy, what don't you like about the BTR-70, 80, 82?

Soldiers are scared to ride inside these Soviet coffins. They still ride on the armor despite the swarms of drones. The Lampas continue to buy this scrap metal. An armored car like the MRAP is even better.

[max702]

Woe from Wit..(p.)
Sometimes you look at all these crafts from certified institutes with decades of experience and you are stunned, what are you thinking? Really? Wasn't it clear that the car wouldn't go anywhere with these caps on the wheels? Is that clear? Then why did they do it exactly like that? And so it is in everything.. Here either the customer set idiotic requirements or the level of competence is such.. What does a tiger need to survive? Of course, a more powerful engine, because there is always not enough of it, we put a YaMZ -535 instead of 534 in Euro -0, and here you have a 300-350 hp engine, an anti-drone net on the roof along the entire length of the car body, which is also a trunk for all sorts of things, armoring of the landing compartment was required, so we make it, and what about them? Did they even imagine how this thing would drive on the landscape?

[_Ugene_]

what's the point? a cheap FPV with an RPG shot will still burn through all this armor, and they are the main threat to armored vehicles now

[pathnuty]

There was an article on VO about barbecue construction:
https://topwar.ru/237406-kogda-zaschita-tehniki-ot-dronov-stanet-serijnoj.html , где в том числе приводились рекомендации ГАБТУ.
And the conclusion is this: enterprises produce what the Ministry of Defense orders, everything else is at the discretion and directness of the users, and only if the bosses allow them to “mock the entrusted property”!

[Alf]

The Tiger stands out from its analogues by its solid anti-mine resistance. Eyewitnesses even tell of anti-tank mines that destroyed the entire front part of the vehicle, but the crew remained alive.

A very strange statement, because all the "experts" unanimously shout that the Tiger's PMZ is in total disrepair. Maybe they know better from the couch?

[Zaurbek]

To increase it, they made Tiger-2 and Typhoon 4x4, but Tiger has no such task. There should be many of them and they should replace UAZs, carry, drag. Analog of Hummer. (at the next level)

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

As tractors for the ZU-23-2 and 2B9 "Vasilek", at least.

[would]

Depends on the modification. The Tiger-M has a resistance to detonation of 600 grams of TNT equivalent. That is, nothing. And this is not "from the couch", but official data published, including in state media.

But there have been talks about modifications with enhanced anti-mine protection for a long time. But no one has seen them personally.

And the author most likely simply did not understand the issue.

[Zaurbek]

Somehow, TIGERS stopped appearing in newsreels from the SVO.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

That's true. Most likely it's a matter of inertia of thinking and sabotage. How many Tigers are there in a regiment in peacetime? I suppose 4-5, no more. And if the BMP and APC are knocked out, they won't be replaced quickly.
It's high time to review the wartime organization charts and give one or two Tigers to each company, several to a battalion, and another twenty to a regiment, a reconnaissance company, an orchestra, and sappers with a political officer.

[Warlord]

I think that we need to increase the protection of the landing force, what's the point of armoring the front part, and armoring the wheel arch interferes more. It seems to me that the limit of the Tiger M has already been exceeded, only the Ural 375 chassis will help here. And there is more space there and the engine is more powerful 350 horsepower.

[Demon]

There is no such thing as a completely universal car. And trying to hang additional armor on a more or less balanced car is like making a grandpa out of a grandma. Well, if there is not enough armor, then you need to develop a new vehicle and adjust all the other units to the increased weight. And so from one problem they created a bunch of other problems.