On the anti-tank capabilities of Krasnopol-type shells

70
On the anti-tank capabilities of Krasnopol-type shells


Cumulative or high explosive?


Perhaps we should start with the main thing - domestic artillery Krasnopol ammunition today successfully demonstrates its versatility. They are successfully fired at various fortifications and at enemy combat equipment - once even the American Abrams got it with sad consequences for it. Therefore, discussions about their anti-tank capabilities against the background of current events look at least inappropriate. But that is today.



In the 152s, when shells of this type (XNUMX mm caliber) were just beginning to come into use in the USSR, there were doubts about the possibility of using special warheads in their design to destroy tanks they did exist. In many ways, of course, due to the appearance in the US of the Copperhead projectile, which was equipped with a cumulative high-explosive warhead capable of penetrating about 500 millimeters of homogeneous steel armor, and even at an angle unfavorable for this armor, which reduced its protective properties.


Copperhead approaches the tank

There is no need to say much about what will happen when a Copperhead hits a tank - even if the cumulative jet does not penetrate the armor, the vehicle is guaranteed to be disabled due to the shrapnel flow (it will blow away the sights and everything else that is on the outside) and the impact loads at the moment of the shell's detonation. In the event of a penetration of the armor, the tank, as well as its crew (completely or partially), will most likely be simply destroyed. So the benefit of creating some kind of analogue of the "American" seems obvious.

On the other hand, a guided artillery shell is a rather expensive thing (compared to a regular artillery shell, the cost is many times higher) and technologically complex. Based on this, which is logical, the versatility of its use should be at the forefront or at least not in the background, and with this, the cumulative-high-explosive warhead has some problems. Yes, in addition to tanks and other military equipment, it is capable of working on openly located manpower and fortifications, but its effectiveness in any case will be significantly lower than that of a high-explosive fragmentation warhead.

As a result, due to these contradictions, Soviet researchers conducted many tests to determine the anti-tank capabilities of high-explosive fragmentation warheads within the design of adjustable artillery shells. We will get acquainted with the report on one of them - it is interesting because it includes not just a dry description of the damage to the fired upon vehicle, but also the condition of its crew after the arrival of the high-explosive fragmentation "club".

OFBC for T-72 and T-80


In this experiment, mock-ups of 152mm caliber guided artillery shells with the control compartment located in the nose were used — almost identical to the Krasnopol. The word "mock-up" should not be confusing: this is a full-fledged shell with explosives, only non-working ballast is stuffed into it as electronics and other equipment, which is quite acceptable. They were fired from a D-20 gun-howitzer from a distance of 500 meters at an estimated impact speed of 200-230 meters per second.

The tanks "Object 172" (T-72) and "Object 219" (T-80) were used as targets. Before each attack, experimental animals (possibly rabbits) were placed in the commander, gunner and driver positions in order to evaluate the damaging effect of the shells on the crew. The impact loads from the shell hits, expressed in impulse force (Newtons per second), were measured using special equipment.

The hits occurred in several places: the roof of the turret, the upper frontal part of the hull, the left side of the fighting compartment (hull), and the rear of the turret.

Now about the results.

First of all, it is worth talking about the consequences of a shell hitting the roof of the Object 219 turret - they are interesting in that the explosive charge in the ammunition detonated at a distance of a couple of calibers from the armor due to insufficient removal (crushing) of the head control compartment, which sharply reduced the impact load on the armor of the vehicle. The total impulse transmitted to the armor part was only 8 kilonewtons per second, and the high explosive component, which is quite expected, was at the level of 2 kilonewtons.


Detonation of a mock-up shell on the turret of Object 219

This was not enough to jam the turret of the "test" tank - and, by the way, the internal equipment and mechanisms will not suffer much from this. However, the rest of the impact was impressive: the gunner's sight was destroyed, as well as the commander's and driver's observation devices. Also, the shell fragments blew apart the external fuel tank, causing the fuel to ignite.

Conclusions: the tank's firepower was completely lost due to broken sights and observation devices, and its mobility was somewhat reduced due to a fuel leak. The crew (animals) also suffered - according to the results of pathomorphological studies, the driver-mechanic's combat capability was completely lost, and that of the commander and gunner was reduced.

The hit on the upper frontal part of the Object 219 hull was no less destructive. Since the explosion was already a contact explosion (the explosive detonated upon contact with the armor), the impulse transmitted to it was quite significant: 16 kilonewtons in general and 7,5 kilonewtons specifically of high explosive action. As a result, the control compartment was depressurized, due to which the detonation products of the shell caused a fire in the electrical equipment of the tank's movement control system.

As in the first case, the tank actually lost its combat capability. The only difference is that its sights and observation devices remained intact, but its mobility was completely lost - with such damage, a tank on the battlefield is usually not a survivor. The crew in this case may remain alive and even be able to abandon the vehicle - its combat capability, judging by the inspection of animals, was assessed as "reduced", but not lost.

The hit of a 152 mm shell on the left side of the tank (this time "Object 172") in the area of ​​the fighting compartment also did not go without consequences, although less in terms of damage to the crew - an examination of the animals showed that if tankers had been sitting in their place, they would not have received much harm, so the report dryly says: "Combat capability maintained." The same cannot be said about the tank: the impulse force (total value 14,2 kilonewtons and 7 kilonewtons for the high-explosive component) hit the chassis hard - several road wheels were destroyed at once and the fender was torn apart.


Destruction of the Object 172 chassis after the explosion of a dummy shell

The tank, while maintaining its firepower - sights and other things remained intact - completely lost its movement, which basically means that the vehicle has lost its combat capability. There is little use in an immobilized tank - it can no longer perform a combat mission, only defend itself with gloomy prospects for the crew.

"Object 172" received significant damage when a 152 mm shell hit the rear part of the turret. The total impulse value in this case was 14,7 kilonewtons, and its high explosive component was 7,2 kilonewtons. This was more than enough to completely jam the vehicle's turret. Shrapnel and the force of the explosion destroyed the cover of the engine-transmission compartment. Shrapnel also destroyed the engine cylinder block. Thus, the vehicle not only lost its speed, but also the ability to fire due to the jammed turret.


The destroyed MTO of Object 172 after the explosion of a dummy shell

Unfortunately, no data is provided on how much the crew could have suffered - in this case, most likely, the animals were not used or their condition was not analyzed after the experiment. However, even without this, it is clear that such a blow from a high-explosive fragmentation "suitcase" would definitely not have improved the health of the tank crews.

Conclusions


As was said earlier, this experiment was far from the only one and was not decisive in the matter of choosing combat units. However, it clearly demonstrated that high-explosive fragmentation guided/corrected artillery shells can be suitable not only for hitting fortifications (stationary objects) or enemy manpower, but also for firing at armored vehicles - any hit on a tank will deprive it of combat capability, and a light combat vehicle will be completely torn to pieces.

This versatility has a positive effect, firstly, on the nomenclature - there is no need to produce several types of shells and carry them in ammunition racks. Secondly, high-explosive fragmentation ammunition, to put it simply, does not care about the improvement of tank armor - it will hit even a heavily armored vehicle with dynamic protection and other elements with good effect. Therefore, the version of the combat filling of the "Krasnopol" chosen by the Soviet developers is completely justified.

The source of information:
"Study of the damaging effect of guided munitions with OFBC on armored vehicles". A. I. Arkhipov, A. A. Dolotov, S. A. Lukyanov, et al.
70 comments
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  1. +2
    11 January 2025 05: 24
    Therefore, the variant of combat equipment for the Krasnopol chosen by Soviet developers is entirely justified.
    belay Well, thank God, we came to the obvious conclusion. request
    1. +3
      11 January 2025 15: 20
      Yes, in addition to tanks and other military equipment, it is also capable of operating against openly located manpower.

      The author of the article clearly got carried away and overdid it. Reading nonsense sucked out of a finger is simply disgusting. We have a problem with target designation for such shells. The large size and weight of the laser target designator, more than 5 kg, forced us to create a special UAV for these purposes - "Orlan-30". And the tactics of its use cause surprise and numerous questions. It does not hang in the air in the review mode, it is launched after the target is detected by another UAV - a reconnaissance aircraft. These UAVs are not part of the batteries and divisions of self-propelled guns, and the options for their use together with the "MSTA-S" self-propelled guns require additional inter-service coordination and are organized for show on holidays. And such a bundle does not work in real time. Maybe the reconnaissance aircraft will detect the target while the "Orlan-30" is launched and it flies, and the enemy has worked and left. And only the author of this article shoots such shells at manpower. The tactics of using "Krasnopoly" have not been worked out and are not widespread and are not practiced. We do not believe in old tales about a new war. And we do not have new tactics of conducting combat for a modern war...
      1. 0
        11 January 2025 19: 53
        Quote: Okko777
        It's just disgusting to read this far-fetched nonsense. We have a problem with target designation for such shells.

        What's the nonsense? What complaints do you have about the author? What did he say about how Krasnopoly was tested in the USSR?
        1. -2
          12 January 2025 02: 58
          No, he considered it normal to use "Krasnopol" for manpower. Is that not enough? And the conclusions at the end? No comment. Is that normal?
          1. +2
            12 January 2025 03: 43
            In 2022, they smashed Krasnopol right into a crowd of VSU members. Does this upset you? Are you normal? You have some kind of wild mess in your head - either the eagles are flying incorrectly, or they are shooting at the wrong people, nonsense, disgusting, sickening! The arguments are like those of an old woman at the entrance. And what conclusions make you hysterical? That Krasnopol is universal? Does this make some part of your body ache?
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      2. -1
        12 January 2025 14: 46
        And the tactics of its use cause surprise and numerous questions. It does not hang in the air in the review mode, it is launched after the target is detected by another UAV - a reconnaissance aircraft. These UAVs are not part of the batteries and divisions of the self-propelled guns, and the options for their use together with the MSTA-S self-propelled guns require additional inter-service coordination and are organized for show on holidays.

        Tell me honestly, do you know exactly how Krasnopol and Orlan-30 are currently being used? belay
        1. -3
          12 January 2025 17: 24
          I know how it is not used and how it should be used. In most cases, it is used with ground illumination. The conditions for the use of precision ammunition have not been created. There are no permanent active Combat Information Systems that monitor the enemy at tactical depth in real time throughout the entire space and provide target designation for precise destruction. Enemy columns move freely in tactical depth and strike our troops with impunity. The latest example is how 6 M142 HIMARS MLRS were accidentally discovered upon return after striking, but they could not be destroyed... Note that there is no information about the use of the ESU TZ "Sozvezdie-M" and the ASUV "Andromeda-D", and there cannot be. They only work on paper...
          1. -1
            12 January 2025 18: 16
            I'll be brief - you are very much mistaken. And first of all, because you live in a world of pre-war fantasies on the topic
            I know how it is not used and how it should be used.

            Yes, pre-war views turned out to be unrealized in many respects in the conditions of the Central Military District, but this does not mean that they were the only correct ones and that nothing else came to replace them.
            There is no information about the use of the ESU TZ "Sozvezdie-M" and the ASUV "Andromeda-D", and there cannot be any.

            Well, I'm sorry that for some reason they don't send you copies of the reports and papers. laughing
      3. -1
        14 January 2025 08: 51
        Quote: Okko777
        Large dimensions and weight of the laser pointer, more than 5 kg

        The LPR-1, which has been in service since 1985, has dimensions of 221×226×116 mm and weighs 2.5 kg.

        Quote: Okko777
        These UAVs are not part of the batteries and divisions of self-propelled guns.

        They are already entering
        1. 0
          14 January 2025 15: 22
          The laser reconnaissance device cannot be used to target the Krasnopol US. What can we talk about with you? What are your assumptions and speculations worth?
      4. 0
        17 January 2025 18: 47
        And only the author of this article fires such shells at living forces.

        And a firing point, a command post, a DShG, a group of repairmen or engineers - aren't targets for Krasnopol? Not enough value?
    2. +2
      12 January 2025 14: 44
      Well, thank God, we came to the obvious conclusion.

      Inappropriate sarcasm.
      Firstly, at the time of the described tests, the conclusion was not at all obvious, since the completely different, previously unused design of the projectile body did not provide grounds for any obviously correct predictions.
      And secondly, in the USA (and not only there) for such shells they chose a cumulative warhead, and not a high-explosive fragmentation one. And the Soviet designers had every reason to find out, including experimentally, the reasons and grounds for such a choice on the part of the designers of a not very backward power.
      1. +1
        17 January 2025 18: 52
        at the time of the described tests the conclusion was not at all obvious

        And what about the rich experience of WWII in firing HE shells of 122-152 mm caliber at equipment?
        since the completely different, previously unused design of the projectile body did not provide grounds for any obviously correct predictions

        That is, these shells were not fired at the ground and concrete in advance, they did not take into account in advance how the shell would work, they did not have prior knowledge about shells with an HE warhead and a control unit in the nose?
        for such shells, they chose a cumulative warhead, not a high-explosive fragmentation one. And the Soviet designers had every reason to find out, including experimentally, the reasons and grounds for such a choice on the part of the designers of a not very backward power

        But yes, it was necessary to try it so that there would be no questions left.
        1. 0
          17 January 2025 19: 35
          And what about the rich experience of WWII in firing HE shells of 122-152 mm caliber at equipment?

          All previous experience concerned firing at armored vehicles with projectiles with steel or cast iron (steel cast iron) casings, which in themselves, upon contact with the target, carry a significant reserve of kinetic energy and do not have any instrument compartments in their composition that "move" the explosive charge away from the affected surface at the moment of detonation. The experience of the Great Patriotic War in assessing the impact of "soft" casings of guided projectiles on various obstacles, alas, was very limited. I would even say - none.
          ...didn't have any prior knowledge about projectiles with HE warheads and a control unit in the nose?

          Of course they didn't. Where from?
          That is, these shells were not fired in advance at the ground and concrete, and they did not take into account in advance how the shell would work.

          I think the word "in advance" is unnecessary here. The article is about time Development of shells of the "Centimeter" and "Krasnopol" types. That is, somewhere in parallel with the described tests (possibly a little later or earlier), work was also carried out to evaluate the effectiveness of their impact on wood-earth fortifications, concrete barriers, brickwork, etc.
          1. 0
            17 January 2025 20: 20
            "pushing" the explosive charge away from the target surface at the moment of detonation

            That is, there were no HE hits on the side screens during the Great Patriotic War? Detonation on the side screen, tracks, rollers, attachments and external elements of the structure did not happen? A person sits in the GRAU Research Institute and does not even guess how it happens, how fuses and detonators work.
            "soft" guided missile bodies

            The case has nothing to do with it, the question is in the sensitivity of the fuse.
            Work was also carried out to assess the effectiveness of their impact on wood and earth fortifications, concrete barriers, brickwork, etc.

            And this is taken into account in advance, even at the moment of developing the concept, at the moment BEFORE the formation of the TTT.
            First, theoretical development, determining the possibility of creating a projectile of this type, and only then calculations, drawings and testing.
            Of course they didn't. Where from?

            KAB-500 was accepted into service in the mid-70s. Kh-29 in 1980. Kh-25 in the 70s.
            How many weapons with HE warheads and homing heads in the nose were there before this, and you think that Krasnopol was the first and that Soviet designers have no idea about the operation of fuses and various warhead designs.
            At least by that time, there already existed a wide range of semi-armor-piercing shells and shells with radio fuses, including for howitzers.
            1. 0
              17 January 2025 20: 48
              Dear Alexander, You have written a lot, but it is all irrelevant.
              I understand that from your point of view it seems as if, having data from the Second World War on the decrease in the effectiveness of the HE shell when overcoming the side screens of German tanks and the dynamics of the formation of fragmentation fields and the features of the high-explosive action of free-falling aerial bombs, one can easily take and recalculate all this for a completely new artillery shell with high ballistics and be so confident in the results of the calculations that one can insist on the stupidity of organizing an experimental verification of the data obtained.
              But my experience tells a different story. It doesn't work that way even today, let alone in the 80s and the knowledge that our ancestors had half a century ago.
              Sorry, I won’t give you a lecture on this topic here - it’s not the time, not the place, and it’s not necessary.
  2. 0
    11 January 2025 07: 42
    Hmm. And to consolidate, so to speak, the result, is it not possible to place a rearguard cumulative charge behind the main explosive charge, with the simultaneous detonation of both?
    I think that the cumulative jet will not be washed away too much, and the main charge will detonate quite well.
    1. +3
      11 January 2025 09: 52
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And to consolidate, so to speak, the result, it is impossible to place a rearguard cumulative charge behind the main explosive charge, ........
      Look at the length of the projectile - where else can you add anything?
      1. 0
        11 January 2025 11: 38
        Quote: Bad_gr
        Look at the length of the projectile - where else can you add anything?

        Due to the main charge. The cumulative charge is not for penetrating a meter of armor, but a dozen centimeters of the roof. Accordingly, the funnel and counter-funnel for formation, not very long, will be ineffective in filling.
      2. +4
        11 January 2025 11: 50
        Quote: Bad_gr
        where else can I add anything?

        "Krasnopol-M1" length 960 mm, it is mainly for self-propelled guns, warhead weight 22 kg, explosive weight 8.5 kg. "Krasnopol-M2" length 1200 mm, warhead weight 26.5 kg, explosive weight 11 kg, the rear parts of both are, in theory, approximately similar, bottom generator and 6 blades. The old-style "Krasnopol" 152/155 mm length 1305 mm.
        The significant difference between the "Kasnopol M" series and the old-style Krasnopol is the single body, they do not need to be assembled from 2 parts. There is a flight program input into the head unit using a computer.
        1. +2
          11 January 2025 16: 02
          What are the new and what are the old "Krasnopol"? Before the start of the SVO, the army had one Soviet rarely used US "Krasnopol", consisting of two blocks and manual input of parameters. There were developments, but they were not ordered for our army, not at all, although they were sold to other countries with production. What input of the "flight" program? US "Krasnopol" flies like a regular projectile and only at the final section, after capturing the laser beam, it accurately turns to the target. You need to know the coordinates of the target and your coordinates in advance. The working area for "Krasnopol" is a sector of 18 degrees, in other versions it will not be able to compensate for a miss. Well, US "Krasnopol" at least survived, and KS "Santimetr" was killed. The production technology was lost, the general designer Vishnevsky died. The plant was destroyed ...
    2. +3
      11 January 2025 10: 43
      even simple dynamic protection knocks down a cumulative jet sad
      and the projectile's explosive charge will not only knock down the stream but also prevent it from getting close to the armor am
      1. +1
        11 January 2025 11: 42
        Quote from: nepunamemuk
        even simple dynamic protection knocks down a cumulative jet

        Just not by an explosion as such, but by throwing or shifting a metal plate.

        Quote from: nepunamemuk
        and the projectile's explosive charge will not only knock down the stream but also prevent it from getting close to the armor
        As for whether it will knock down or not, that's still debatable, explosives are a complicated thing, after all, it is the cumulative jet that can serve as a means of initiating the detonation of the main charge, but as for getting closer, it's the opposite, it is the detonation of the KS at a distance that is better than the detonation at the armor itself - that's the basics.
        1. +1
          11 January 2025 12: 07
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Just not by an explosion as such, but by throwing or shifting a metal plate.

          Are you suggesting to push the explosives directly into the godfather's funnel? After initialization, the main charge will push the funnel back and turn it into a pipe. laughing
          1. 0
            11 January 2025 12: 22
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Are you suggesting to push the explosives directly into the godfather's funnel? After initialization, the main charge will push the funnel back and turn it into a pipe.

            Something like that. And also cumulative explosives have a higher detonation velocity than HE explosives.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Due to the main charge. The cumulative charge is not for penetrating a meter of armor, but a dozen centimeters of the roof. Accordingly, the funnel and counter-funnel for formation, not very long, will be ineffective in filling.
            1. 0
              11 January 2025 16: 13
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Something like that. And also cumulative explosives have a higher detonation velocity than HE explosives.

              Why do you think it's "bigger"? Kum doesn't need high-explosive explosives. And it doesn't matter, Kum doesn't collapse the funnel, but turns it inside out. In order for the rod to form, it needs free space in front. That's why the RPG carrot is so long and empty inside. And if there is explosive in the funnel, it will immediately detonate, at the very beginning of the central part's extension, and the funnel will simply be blown apart. And if there is no rod, then there is nothing to penetrate it with. wink
              1. 0
                12 January 2025 09: 11
                Quote: Saxahorse
                And it doesn’t matter, the godfather doesn’t collapse but turns the funnel inside out.
                In general, after this statement the discussion could have been closed. Because it is fundamentally opposite to reality. Oh well.

                Quote: Saxahorse
                Why do you think it's "bigger"? My godfather doesn't need high-explosive explosives.
                And this statement contradicts reality, but not as much as the previous one.
                https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/en-ru.ru.d59ed140-67835a41-7f0b46f5-74722d776562/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_charge

                Quote: Saxahorse
                In order for the rod to form, it needs free space in front. That's why the RPG's carrot is so long and empty inside. And if there is explosive in the funnel, it will immediately detonate, at the very beginning of the central part's extension, and the funnel will simply be blown apart.
                Well, here it's just simple inattention. Or I didn't write it clearly enough.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Accordingly, the funnel and counter-funnel for formation that are not very long will be ineffective in filling.

                To put it simply, "ineffective in terms of filling" means empty...

                But in general, I understand that this is a complication of the projectile, which is most likely excessive. But it was, and now, in connection with the mass "omangalization" and the corresponding removal of the detonation site from the armor itself, it may become very relevant.
                1. -1
                  12 January 2025 14: 19
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  And it doesn’t matter, the godfather doesn’t collapse but turns the funnel inside out.
                  In general, after this statement the discussion could have been closed. Because it is fundamentally opposite to reality. Oh well.

                  You surprised me. Although the idea itself already suggests that you do not understand how the cumulative works.
                  1. 0
                    12 January 2025 14: 40
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    You surprised me. Although the idea itself already suggests that you do not understand how the cumulative works.

                    read the classics and not Wiki wink
                    The detonation wave is initiated by the detonator cap and propagates along the axis of the charge, consistently collapsing the notch. In this case, mechanical and thermal energy is concentrated along the axis of the cone.

                    If the funnel simply collapsed as our amateur journalists like to write, the longitudinal speed of the rod would be close to zero, but we have up to 16 km/sec.

                    https://old.bigenc.ru/physics/text/2121693
                  2. 0
                    12 January 2025 14: 42
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    You surprised me. Although the idea itself already suggests that you do not understand how the cumulative works.

                    Hmm. Cumulation is concentration, accumulation. Here, "collapsing" in your words - it looks like concentration, but "turning inside out" is not. So it is you who do not know the basics, and also are not able to understand what is in the description of the cumulative process, to which I gave you a link.
                    1. 0
                      12 January 2025 14: 56
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Hmm. Cumulation is concentration, accumulation. Here, "collapsing" in your words - it looks like concentration, but "turning inside out" is not.

                      Please, use common sense. The detonator is at the bottom, you can even see it in the Wikipedia picture. The shock wave (spherical by the way) spreads forward from it. How will you get a collapse if it first reaches and starts moving the center of the funnel forward?
                      1. 0
                        12 January 2025 17: 18
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Please, use common sense. The detonator is at the bottom, you can even see it in the Wikipedia picture. The shock wave (spherical by the way) spreads forward from it. How will you get a collapse if it first reaches and starts moving the center of the funnel forward?

                        Study the topic so as not to embarrass yourself.
                        https://studopedia.ru/3_3134_fizicheskaya-sushchnost-kumulyativnogo-deystviya.html
                        What you are writing about refers to the impact core, with completely different angles and shape of the notch.
                      2. -1
                        12 January 2025 20: 30
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Study the topic so as not to embarrass yourself.

                        That's right, don't embarrass yourself! In Russian it's called "looking at a book and seeing a fig" laughing

                        Note the location of points 5', 7' and 9' in the stream compared to the location of the same points 5, 7 and 9 in the funnel. The funnel does not collapse from the sides but turns inside out and stretches out from the center!
                      3. 0
                        13 January 2025 03: 29
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        That's right, don't embarrass yourself! In Russian it's called "looking at a book and seeing a fig"

                        If this were an eversion, then points 4, 6, and 8 would be next to points 3, 7, and 5.
                        You can't even handle the picture?

                        As the cumulative recess lining approaches the axis, the thickness of the cross-section of the compressed lining increases. Thus, the metal lining, initially having the shape of a funnel, collapses, as it were, flowing toward the axis of the recess. When the lining collapses along its axis, particles of metal from the inner surface of the lining splash toward the base of the recess at a very high speed, forming a thin metal stream.

                        When the lining collapses, compresses, or squeezes, its inner surface is pushed forward by the metal of the lining, rather than being turned inside out by an explosion. Otherwise, points 6 and 5, 3 and 4, 7 and 8 would be next to each other, rather than at opposite ends of the jet and pestle.
                        If even this is not clear, then put these numbers on a plastic bag, inside and outside, and turn it inside out. Maybe this way you will understand the meaning of the word "turn out". If of course this is not difficult for you.
                      4. 0
                        13 January 2025 08: 47
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Otherwise, points 6 and 5, 3 and 4, 7 and 8 would be located next to each other, and not at opposite ends of the stream and pestle.
                        If it is not clear even this way, then put these numbers on a plastic bag, inside and outside, and turn it inside out.

                        If point 5, which is initially located in the depth of the funnel, ends up on the tip of the rod, isn't this an eversion? What?

                        A plastic bag is a simple, two-dimensional object. Its outer and inner surfaces are connected, and here a three-dimensional liquid object is turned inside out. Pinch a drop of liquid by the surface film and pull (or a balloon filled with water), after a couple of seconds you will see that the bottom point remains on the surface and liquid rushes into the spindle that is formed from the sides, reducing the diameter of the drop. All this is clearly depicted in the picture YOU provided. Try to understand it.

                        What kind of nonsense won't people write in order not to admit their mistake? fool
                      5. 0
                        13 January 2025 09: 06
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        What kind of nonsense won't people write in order not to admit their mistake?

                        That's it...
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Pinch a drop of liquid by the surface film and pull (or a balloon filled with water), after a couple of seconds you will see that the bottom point remains on the surface and liquid rushes into the resulting spindle from the sides, reducing the diameter of the drop.

                        How can THIS be called a reversal?!
                        Well, if you didn't succeed with the bag, remember how you squeezed pimples, like the rest of us. Can squeezing a pimple be called turning it inside out? You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word "turn it inside out".
                      6. 0
                        13 January 2025 21: 39
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word "turn inside out".

                        If the inner surface of the funnel becomes the outer surface of the rod, and the outer surface, on the contrary, flows down to the base of the rod, then you can’t call it anything other than “turning inside out”.

                        You have found a very good link that describes in detail and clearly the process of moving the cumulative funnel material and turning it into an armor-piercing rod. Due to some unusualness, they even described experiments with galvanic coating of surfaces, which clearly confirm the behavior of the material similar to the behavior of liquids. However, you yourself cannot comprehend this detailed and interesting picture.

                        In general, God be with you, think what you want. Just don't be shy about giving this link to others, that article is one of the best in terms of describing the godfather's behavior.
                      7. 0
                        14 January 2025 08: 08
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        If the inner surface of the funnel becomes the outer surface of the rod, and the outer surface, on the contrary, flows down to the base of the rod, then you can’t call it anything other than “turning inside out”.

                        This is called "stretching", and what you described above is called "pulling".
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Pinch a drop of liquid by the surface film and pull
    3. +1
      12 January 2025 14: 49
      I think that the cumulative jet will not be washed away too much, and the main charge will detonate quite well.

      Most likely, the "leading" HE charge of such volume in this case will work as an element of the most powerful DZ. The cumulative effect will be reduced to zero with a simultaneous weakening of the high explosive action due to the reduction in the mass of the charge.
      1. +1
        12 January 2025 17: 17
        Quote: Bogalex
        Most likely, the "leading" HE charge of such volume in this case will work as an element of the most powerful DZ.

        It is possible, but given that modern K-charges are made from high-explosive explosives with a higher detonation velocity than explosives for HE charges, then most likely not.
        So the K-charge can act as a detonator for the leading F-charge. And the jet will penetrate the F-charge and reach the armor without undergoing significant deformation.
  3. -3
    11 January 2025 08: 56
    As a result, due to these contradictions, Soviet researchers conducted many tests to determine the anti-tank capabilities of high-explosive fragmentation warheads within the framework of the design of adjustable artillery shells.

    We had and still have a strong imbalance: there are more researchers than creators.
    1. +2
      11 January 2025 11: 15
      We had and still have a strong imbalance: there are more researchers than creators.

      Researchers are usually the creators. During the development process, mock-ups and prototypes are tested.
      1. -3
        11 January 2025 11: 30
        Researchers are usually the creators.

        Excuse me, but in what field do you work, where researchers are creators?
        1. +2
          11 January 2025 11: 35
          In Soviet times, I worked at the Aviation Institute. After Gaidar said that we don't need airplanes and stopped paying salaries, I left the aviation industry. Now I work in geophysical instrumentation, we develop and manufacture equipment for oil workers, and we test it ourselves.
          1. -2
            11 January 2025 11: 37
            experiencing

            We test, but do not research. I also periodically go to the Sofrinsky testing ground to test my own, but I do not draw tables, graphs and other beautiful pictures, but develop design documentation.
            1. 0
              11 January 2025 11: 48
              For me, testing also involves research. I don't really chase beauty, I create tables and graphs based on test results, if necessary, in Excel for analysis. Sometimes I have to do more complex processing.
              1. -2
                11 January 2025 12: 05
                You are not a designer, but a researcher.
                1. +1
                  11 January 2025 15: 15
                  Well, it's not for you to judge who I am. I've always considered myself a development engineer, I've been working in the profession for 44 years, the last twenty years as the head of the design department, I've received three dozen patents for inventions, I could have received many more, but there's no time for registration, I work at a private enterprise, we live from the sale of products, we don't have a ruble from the budget - we only pay taxes. Well, I defended my dissertation (PhD) - the committee was simply stunned when I presented a list of equipment implemented in the oil and gas industry.
                  I wonder, how do you judge the conformity of products to technical requirements if you do not conduct any experimental studies and do not analyze the results? Although, perhaps, your products do not need such analysis - if everything is simple and obvious. Although, it seems to me, even galoshes require research - how long they are worn before the sole wears out.
                  1. -2
                    11 January 2025 15: 44
                    received three dozen patents for inventions

                    Three dozen? Why work? Or is it just that, unsaleable? Patents that cannot be sold or you cannot get personal benefit from selling patented products...what's the point of registering...to satisfy ambitions...
                    1. 0
                      11 January 2025 16: 08
                      You have no idea about patent work. In the presence of competition, patents are simply necessary, otherwise competitors will block the possibility of producing products with their patents - they will register patent rights for themselves and prohibit the production of products if they violate their patents and will also impose fines. Or do you think that in the USA and China patents are registered (in number many times more than in Russia) solely to amuse their vanity? In fact, the number of registered patents is used to judge the technical development of any country.
                      As I understand it, you deal exclusively with the design of drawings? - Well, that means all this is not for your level of understanding.
                    2. 0
                      11 January 2025 16: 17
                      I'm not even talking about the fact that now, during tenders for the supply of products, serious customers require the presentation of patents in order to verify the copyright to the product, that it is not stolen, and that the patent court will not prohibit its release.
                      1. -2
                        11 January 2025 18: 19
                        customers require patents to be presented

                        We are required to have certificates of conformity. Now the Ministry of Industry and Trade requires a certificate for one installation so that we can sell it to Kazakhstan. Previously, we bothered with patenting, but ... we realized that there is no great sense in patents, it is elementary to bypass them. And we sold machines to Belgium without a patent, since it is impossible to make a profit by manufacturing such machines, repeating their design completely, the qualifications of workers and equipment allowed manufacturing only here with low costs. And in the USA, by the way, there is a system of two envelopes and a lot of patent firms work like that.
                      2. 0
                        12 January 2025 06: 29
                        ...we realized that there is no great sense in patents; it is easy to get around them.

                        Yes, it is elementary to bypass a patent if you work according to the Soviet school of patenting (one patent = one item of the invention formula). In recent years, I have been working almost exclusively with US patents. They make it so that bypassing their patents is, if not impossible, then at least very difficult. Firstly, a whole system of patents is filed. Secondly, the formula of each patent includes from 30 to 60 independent items (both devices and methods), thus "pillaring up" a whole area of ​​technology and it is difficult for competitors to find a "crack" into which to fit and prove the novelty of their product. We have also now begun to work according to a similar system.
                        As for using the competitive advantage in the form of low cost price - China rose precisely due to the low cost price of production. It was mainly determined by low salaries. In my opinion, this is not a very promising path. In the end, people will get tired of working for pennies and salaries will have to be increased. Now salaries in China are already higher than ours (at least in the cities).
                      3. 0
                        12 January 2025 07: 05
                        competitive advantage in the form of low cost -

                        That's the point, with a high salary and high qualifications. But that was before.
            2. 0
              11 January 2025 21: 36
              Quote: Konnick
              I also periodically go to the Sofrinsky testing ground to test my stuff, but I don’t draw tables, graphs and other pretty pictures.
              This is your PZ that is not working properly. They could have included it in the list of reporting documents or as one of the PMI items.
  4. +1
    11 January 2025 10: 40
    When I was studying, we had this projectile in section, everything was very tight there, and the explosive seemed to me to be very small, it takes up at least a fifth of the entire huge projectile. It seems to me that everything needs to be reworked there, a new elemental base or something, to reduce everything, and increase the explosive.
  5. +2
    11 January 2025 11: 02
    Well, since the Second World War it has been known that a 152mm shell turns any tank into scrap metal. And it doesn't really matter where it lands. The amount of explosives was what mattered.
    1. 0
      12 January 2025 14: 50
      It's not just the amount of explosives, but also the design and material of the hull. And here additional research was really needed, since the designers of the 80s did not have our hindsight.
  6. +2
    11 January 2025 12: 03
    Unfortunately, there are no descriptions of other schemes for constructing a multi-purpose guided projectile... including in a 152 mm caliber! Other possible schemes for a multi-purpose projectile: 1. High-explosive armor-piercing projectile with plastic explosive (example: British high-explosive armor-piercing projectiles); 2. High-explosive cumulative projectile (example: "Copperhead"); 3. Multi-purpose projectiles with a special nose section (SNCH) that can be shot off and multi-point initiation: a) cumulative + SNCH; b) SFZ + SNCH...
    1. 0
      11 January 2025 21: 41
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Unfortunately, there are no descriptions of other schemes for constructing a multi-purpose guided projectile... including one in a 152 mm caliber!
      Look at the Americans. They are now promoting a single high-explosive-cumulative-concrete-piercing round (M1147 AMP) for the Abrams. They want the new round to replace the M830 cumulative round, the universal M830A1 anti-tank round, the M1028 canister anti-personnel round, and the M908 high-explosive concrete-piercing round.
  7. +2
    11 January 2025 12: 05
    "They were fired from a D-20 howitzer gun from a distance of 500 meters."
    "Awarded posthumously again"
  8. -1
    11 January 2025 19: 57
    There is an acute shortage of 120mm cluster mines and cluster shells of various calibers.
    And the discussions about the combat unit of Krasnopol are somehow very abstract from real problems.
  9. 0
    11 January 2025 20: 48
    Does the 203mm have a similar projectile?
    1. 0
      12 January 2025 14: 53
      No. The gun was created for completely different purposes; its participation in repelling tank attacks, as well as fighting enemy field fortifications on the front line, was not envisaged by Soviet doctrines at all.
      1. -1
        12 January 2025 21: 15
        What do tanks have to do with it...either there is a high-precision projectile or not. 203mm is the level of Khimars
  10. 0
    11 January 2025 21: 33
    I thought the effect would be more severe.
  11. -1
    12 January 2025 12: 50
    Thus, as I have written here many times, feel the ideal armament for a tank is a 160mm universal low-ballistic gun (similar to those on the Nona and Lotos), with high elevation angles. Both guided and unguided missiles (or Krasnopol-type shells - in the upper projection) can be used as anti-tank ammunition. A direct hit by an HE shell of this caliber on a moving tank, due to the low speed of the shell, will of course be difficult, but this can probably be compensated for by a more modern design of the ballistic computer. At the same time, if a shell of this caliber hits a tank, it will turn into a bucket of bolts...
  12. 0
    12 January 2025 15: 51
    So super-duper Krasnopol can't even kill rabbits in a tank? There are plenty of videos of this product being used, but the effect on private homes is very weak.
  13. 0
    13 January 2025 12: 00
    Krasnopol was first used in Afghanistan for ground-based laser illumination.
    Then in SAR with Orlan-30. Now its use is episodic. It costs a lot - 2,5 million, and a regular 152mm OF - 200k. That's why there are few videos of Krasnopol being used.
    From the last 2025:
    https://vkvideo.ru/video-70204174_456302402
    Weak explosive effect.
  14. 0
    19 January 2025 10: 13
    Why all this fuss with Krasnopol? After all, there is a drone, put laser equipment there and guide targets. And I think the artillery system from MSTA S or Giatsint will fit on the T-90 tank. Just shorten the barrel and make it smoothbore. Moreover, 125 mm is morally obsolete, tanks have already become stronger (however, the sides are still cardboard). Back in 2012, they were discussing the topic of 152 mm Armata, most considered it an unprofitable and expensive pleasure. As a result, in 2022-2023, most tanks were lost to mortars, howitzers, drones, ATGMs. When with 152 mm it was possible to fire at targets from 7-8 km and there would be enough time to leave the position. And the larger the search area, the longer it takes.