The "floating" border between Europe and Asia

52
The "floating" border between Europe and Asia
Sverdlovsk region, obelisk on the conditional border of Europe and Asia at the Khrebet-Uralsky station


People have been trying to divide the earth into Europe and Asia for a very long time, the only problem is that there are simply no natural borders between these parts of the world. But it was the Europeans who, since ancient times, persistently tried to draw this border anyway - first of all, because it was supposed to separate them from people of another, incomprehensible culture, to become a clear reference point for the distribution of neighbors according to the principle of "friend or foe". At all times, this was considered very important - after all, in order not to be known as savages and barbarians, it was necessary to at least a little, but take into account "friends" and try to observe some decency. But with strangers it was possible not to stand on ceremony. Aristotle, for example, instructed his student Alexander the Great:



"One should be a leader to the Greeks and a despot to the barbarians; one should treat the former as one's relatives or friends, and the latter as one treats animals or plants."

Later, Aristotle's nephew Callisthenes dared to reproach Alexander for the fact that he, being a Macedonian on his father's side, that is, half a barbarian, dared to destroy the city of the true Hellenes - Thebes. By doing so, he insulted the conqueror so much that he ended his life in an iron cage.

The Venetians traditionally competed with the Genoese, and the Florentine Dante in his famous poem claimed that the right to first place on the road to hell belonged to the inhabitants of Genoa. However, this was a feud at the state level. In everyday life, the citizens of these republics did not shy away from each other, they could have common interests and even be friends. The Turks or Moors of North Africa were another matter. The Orthodox Romans of Constantinople occupied a border position. The Catholic Europeans did business with the Byzantines, but at the same time considered them "such heretics that it makes the Lord God himself sick." That is, the Orthodox Greeks of Byzantium, whose ancestors so carefully defined the borders of Europe, themselves turned out to be "second-class" Europeans - and in the eyes of the descendants of the barbarians despised by the Hellenes.

Later, the place of the Byzantine "heretics" was taken by the Russians, and in 1704, the Swedish pastor (and superintendent of Ingria) Nikolai Bergius, in a dissertation published in Stockholm, quite seriously considered the question of whether Russians could be considered Christians at all. You probably guessed that the answer was negative.

The borders of Europe in antiquity


Over the centuries, the eastern border of Europe changed its position so often that the English historian William Parker called this part of the world "tidal". As for its name, it seems to have come from the Phoenicians, whose native territory was the eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea (that is, modern Asia). The Phoenicians considered their lands to be the center of the world known to them, to the west of them was "Ereb" (sunset, darkness, darkness), to the east - Asu (sunrise, the place where the day is born). It was from the Phoenicians that these terms passed to the Greeks, and at the turn of the 6th-5th centuries BC, the word "Europe" was used in his work "Tour of the Earth" by Hecataeus of Miletus. By Europe he meant the Balkan Peninsula and the surrounding lands, and he called the Phasis (Rioni) River in the territory of modern Georgia its eastern border.


Europe, Asia and Libya (North Africa) according to Hecataeus

The colonization of the eastern coast of the Black Sea by the Greeks led to the fact that the Kerch Strait and the Don River, on which the northernmost Greek settlement, Tanais, was located, were considered the border of Europe. This point of view was held by Polybius, Strabo, Pomponius Mela and Claudius Ptolemy.


Ptolemy's Map

Ptolemy's authority was so great that the Don was considered the eastern border of Europe until the 1627th century. The border between Europe and Asia along the Don is also mentioned in the "Book of the Great Drawing" compiled in XNUMX, which is an accompanying text to the lost map of the Muscovite kingdom. And Peter I still separated Russia from other European countries, saying:

"We need Europe for a hundred years."

And even in 1765, in the French textbook “Road Geography, Containing a Description of All States in the World” printed in Russia, one could read that Europe ends beyond the Don and Poland. But already in 1767, Catherine II clearly and unambiguously wrote in the first chapter of the notorious “Instructions to the Commission on the Composition of a Project for a New Code”:

"Russia is a European power."

Agree, if Russia had already been officially considered as such by that time, there would have been no need to declare this in official documents.

On the other hand, the empress was not at all offended by Derzhavin, who 15 years later in an ode written in 1782 called her "the princess of the Kirghiz-Kaisak Horde." And he himself was so frightened that, on the advice of friends, he hid the ode and did not publish it for a whole year. But Catherine sent the author 500 chervonets in a gold snuffbox strewn with diamonds with a note: "From the Kirghiz princess to Murza Derzhavin."

By this time, the borders of Europe had long been fluctuating, and this part of the world was ready to move east. The only question was how far it would go in this direction. And along what line the new border between Europe and Asia would be officially fixed.

Europe and Russia


In his work "History In his book "Europe", British historian Norman Davies wrote:

“Throughout modern history… the cardinal problem in defining the boundaries of Europe has been whether or not to include Russia.”

By the way, look at how Russia is represented on this figurative map of Europe from 1877:


Its author would clearly like to fence himself off from our country, if not with an iron, then at least with a bronze or stone “curtain”.

It should be noted that up until the time of Peter I, Russians did not consider themselves either Europeans or Asians and showed no desire to become either. And they were absolutely right, because Russia is not only a state, but also a completely independent and self-sufficient part of the world. And the young Russian super-ethnos, which formed much later than the European one, is fundamentally different from all its neighbors. We can even determine the time when Russians clearly felt themselves to be representatives of a new - special and unique - civilization. The spokesman for this idea was the elder of the Pskov Eleazar Monastery Philotheus, who in 1523-1524 in his messages to the Grand Duke of Moscow Vasily III declared the moral decline of the Christian world and the transformation of Moscow into the Third Rome, issuing a minted formula:

"Two Romes have fallen, the third stands, and there will be no fourth."


M. Yu. Tikhonova. "The Third Rome" (Prayer of the monk Philotheus for the Third Rome)

At the same time, Russian rulers, contrary to popular belief, did not avoid mutually beneficial relations with foreigners and foreign sovereigns. Ivan the Terrible was an ally of the Danish King Frederick II and maintained such close ties with the English that his confidants called him the "English" Tsar (it would be more accurate to say "pro-English"). This line was continued by Boris Godunov, who pursued an active and very successful foreign policy, was going to marry his daughter to Prince John of Schleswig-Holstein (brother of the Danish King Christian IV) and sent young noblemen to study at European universities. But, as A.K. Tolstoy wrote, "unfortunately, the Pretender, out of nowhere...".

And under Alexei Mikhailovich, his son Fyodor and daughter Sophia, reforms developed so rapidly and actively that many of their initiatives were later attributed to Peter I.

Since the founding of the empire by Peter I, representatives of the Russian nobility began to study in Europe or at home, but in the European spirit. This contributed to the development of an inferiority complex among the Russian nobles, expressed in admiration for everything Western and contempt for their own people, who were no worse, but simply younger than the French, Germans or English. This age difference has become especially evident in our days, when it suddenly became clear that representatives of the old European ethnic groups are now unable to distinguish a man from a woman. And they do not even try to protect the borders of their states from more and more new streams of migrants, so that we are already talking about the beginning of a new era of the Great Migration of Peoples.

One of the undesirable consequences of Peter I's reforms was a deep split in Russian society: nobles and representatives of other classes (not only poor peasants, but also fabulously rich merchants) wore different clothes, ate different foods, and even spoke different languages. Here, for example, is an excerpt from Fonvizin's play "The Brigadier", written during the reign of Catherine II (staged in 1770):

“My body was born in Russia, it is true, but my spirit belonged to the French crown.”

It is clear that this is a replica of a negative character, but no one in Russia, either then or later, doubted the reality of the existence of such Russian nobles. No one said to the author, "Denis Ivanovich, you might lie, but you wouldn't lie to such an extent."

If you think that I am exaggerating and thickening the colors, remember the daughter of a high-ranking Russian official: her body was also born in Russia, but in 2022 she directly stated that she considers herself a "citizen of the world" and was extremely upset and outraged to learn that sanctions had been imposed against her. This young lady is not an exception to the rule, and she is in complete solidarity with the "businessmen" who robbed our country, and the liberals of the Russian "bohemia", and, as Mr. Chubais has shown us all, some representatives of the high-level "nomenklatura". And also their offspring - self-proclaimed "socialites" and rich kids who call themselves "golden youth".

I think you understand that the "world" in their minds is not Bolivia or Venezuela, not Kenya or Rwanda, not Lebanon or Pakistan. Their "world", to which they are infinitely devoted, is the "blessed" United States of America and the most prosperous countries of Western Europe. In extreme cases, the United Arab Emirates, where for most of the year the only place you can be outside during the day is on the seashore in swimming trunks under an umbrella on a sun lounger, and indoors - only if the air conditioner is constantly running. But our liberals are happier there than in Russia, which they deeply despise.

Let's go back a little and remember what Leo Tolstoy wrote in his novel War and Peace:

"The prince spoke that exquisite French language, which not only spoke, but also thought our grandfathers."

And again, no one even tried to object to Lev Nikolayevich on this matter. Here is his description of the Battle of Borodino, and in general the entire course of the campaign of 1812, only the lazy did not criticize. And no one argued with the fact that the Russian nobles of those years did not know their native language: it would be stupid to deny the well-known facts. Many still remembered how during the Patriotic War of 1812, Russian partisans from among the peasants could not distinguish Russian officers from foreign ones - they killed them equally with French, German, Italian or Polish. And even in 1825, many Decembrists did not know Russian or knew it so poorly that they were forced to use a dictionary when filling out investigators' questionnaires (among them were, for example, M. S. Lunin and M. P. Bestuzhev-Ryumin).

And already on July 15, 1833, Chaadaev addressed Benckendorff:
"I ask you to tell the Emperor that, having written to the Russian Tsar in a language other than Russian, I myself was ashamed of it. But I wanted to express to the Emperor a feeling full of conviction, and I would not have been able to express it in a language in which I had not written before."

The modern literary Russian language was created by Pushkin – his works became the first works of Russian literature that we can now read without effort and internal resistance. But in the first years of his life, our great poet spoke French better than Russian, and it was in French that he wrote his first poems.

The thoughtlessly Europeanized representatives of the upper classes of Russian society did not know their people and did not understand them, which ultimately led to the fall of the empire. Tsarist Russia can be compared to an oak tree on which a beautiful mistletoe plant was parasitizing. It all ended with the mistletoe being destroyed, and it turned out that the oak could do without it just fine. Having practically lost its already small layer of educated people after the revolution and the civil war, the new Soviet Russia did not collapse into the Middle Ages, but made an incredible leap in its development. In just 10 years, brilliant designers, engineers, architects, physicists, and chemists appeared in the Soviet Union, a new intellectual elite was formed, whose representatives were people who had no opportunity for self-realization under the tsarist regime.

But let's return to the main topic of the article and talk about the new borders of Europe and Asia.

Europe is going east


So, with the growth of geographical knowledge, it was not Russians, but European scientists who began to propose new borders for Europe. Already the German philosopher and scientist Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646–1716) called Russia the main outpost of Europe in the East. The French scientist Guillaume Delisle and his German colleague Johann Giebner (contemporaries of Peter I) proposed to consider the Ob River as the border of Europe! The naturalist Johann Georg Gmelin, a participant in Vitus Bering’s expedition, went even further, giving Europe the territory up to the Yenisei, which divides Siberia into Western and Eastern.

Vasily Nikitich Tatishchev and Lieutenant Colonel of the Swedish army Philipp Johann Strahlenberg (taken prisoner at Poltava and exiled to Siberia) were more modest - they decided that Asia begins beyond the Ural Mountains. Tatishchev proposed to draw the border between Europe and Asia from the Yugorsky Shar Strait along the Ural Mountains and the Ural River, then through the Caspian Sea to the Kuma River, and then through the Caucasus to the Azov and Black Seas and, finally, to the Bosphorus.


V. N. Tatishchev in a portrait by an unknown artist


Philip Johanvon Strahlenberg, self-portrait

In 1759, M. V. Lomonosov, in his treatise “On the Layers of the Earth,” advanced another version of this boundary:

"Along the low valley that extends from the mouth of the Don to the Northern Dvina."

And in the “Brief Guide to Geography for the Benefit of Students at the Youth Gymnasium,” published in St. Petersburg in 1742, one can read the following figurative description of Europe:

"How is Europe divided?
- Like a seated girl, whose fontange (hairdo) is Portugal, her face is Spain, her chest is France, her left hand is England, her right is Italy, under her left hand lie the Netherlands, under her right hand is Switzerland; before the body are Germany, Poland and Hungary, the knees are Denmark, Norway and Sweden; the skirt is Russia, the back is the Turkish provinces of Europe and Greece."

The question of where the "skirt of Europe" ends was left unanswered. But the "Brief" and "Extensive Land Description of the Russian State" published in 1787 named the Ural Mountains as the border between Europe and Asia. And in the Handbuch der Geographie published in 1833 by Wilhelm Folger, the border between Europe and Asia was also drawn along the Ural Mountains.

Yes, many liked the idea of ​​Tatishchev and Strahlenberg, especially the armchair scientists who had never seen the Ural Mountains. But already in the 19th century N. Ya. Danilevsky wrote in his work “Russia and Europe”:

"The Ural Range occupies about half of this border (between Europe and Asia). But what special qualities does it have that, of all the ranges of the globe, it alone can be given the honor of serving as a border between two parts of the world, an honor that in all other cases is recognized only beyond the oceans and rarely beyond the seas? This range is one of the most insignificant in its height, and one of the most convenient in terms of its passage; in its middle part, near Yekaterinburg, they cross it, as through the famous Alaunskaya Upland and the Valdai Mountains, asking the coachman: where, brother, are the mountains?"

And further:

"If the Urals separate two parts of the world, then what should be separated after that by the Alps, the Caucasus or the Himalayas? If the Urals turn Europe into a part of the world, then why not consider India a part of the world? After all, it is surrounded on two sides by the sea, and on the third by mountains - not a match for the Urals; and there are many more physical differences (from the adjacent part of Asia) in India than in Europe."

And then:

"But the Ural Mountains, at least, are something; further on, the honor of serving as the border between two worlds falls to the Ural River, which is already a complete nothing. A narrow river, at its mouth a quarter of the width of the Neva, with banks that are absolutely identical on both sides... Where there are no real borders, you can choose them for a thousand years."



That's right, there are no "real borders" between Europe and Asia. At a meeting of the Moscow branch of the Geographical Society of the USSR in 1958, the border between Europe and Asia was recognized as a cultural-historical, rather than a physical-geographical concept. Some even suggested recognizing the state border of the USSR as the border of Europe. This certainly made sense, since it is impossible to answer the question: what exactly, what mysterious signs and features allow us to consider Ufa a European city, while Chelyabinsk is forced to be unconditionally classified as an Asian city?


But the Ural Mountains nevertheless became the cornerstone of this conventional border. And now in the Urals you can see a huge number of obelisks symbolizing this conventional border - in Bashkiria, Perm Krai, Sverdlovsk, Chelyabinsk and Orenburg regions, as well as in Kazakhstan.


Obelisk Europe-Asia in the Orenburg region

And where the Ural Mountains end, the options begin. Most often, the border is drawn along the Ural River, but sometimes along another river, the Emba, which flows about 200 km to the east. And sometimes along the border between Russia and Kazakhstan. Fierce political disputes rage over whether Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan belong to Europe or Asia. If the border between these parts of the world is drawn along the Kuma-Manych Depression, then not only these post-Soviet states, but also Stavropol Krai, Krasnodar Krai, and the North Caucasian republics of the Russian Federation end up in Asia. And if the border is drawn along the Araks River, Transcaucasia becomes Europe.

Thus, we can safely conclude that there is no natural border between Europe and Asia, and the very concept of “Europe” is not geographical.

In the next article we will try to look at the problem from the other side and try to understand whether it is possible to find the invisible border between Europe and Asia using climate maps and isotherms.
52 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +1
    10 January 2025 05: 32
    Now it is necessary to analyze such a concept as European values ​​and how they differ from universal human values.
    1. 0
      10 January 2025 06: 21
      Quote: ee2100
      European values ​​and how they differ from universal human values
      It's almost a synonym. It's what's driving humanity to extinction and disaster.
      1. +1
        10 January 2025 16: 59
        Humanism leads to the degeneration of humanity both literally and figuratively. Some people understand this. The vast majority do not yet. Well...
        "Youth is raging in my soul,
        I cherish the dream of fury:
        Smother All Humanists
        And make humanity happy..."
        (C)
  2. Msi
    -2
    10 January 2025 05: 38
    about the moral decline of the Christian world and the transformation of Moscow into the Third Rome

    Isn't this a bit of an imitation? We looked to the West again, since Rome was mentioned. And again the idea that Moscow is the Third Rome appeared a bit earlier, when Ivan III married Sophia Paleologue, if I'm not mistaken.
    The article is good, informative, interesting.
  3. +4
    10 January 2025 06: 19
    Quote from Msi
    about the moral decline of the Christian world and the transformation of Moscow into the Third Rome

    Isn't this a bit of an imitation? We looked to the West again, since Rome was mentioned. And again the idea that Moscow is the Third Rome appeared a bit earlier, when Ivan III married Sophia Paleologue, if I'm not mistaken.
    The article is good, informative, interesting.

    The Western Roman Empire was destroyed by barbarians, and the Eastern Roman Empire was destroyed by the Ottomans. The division into the Western and Eastern Roman Empires is also a religious division, since the Orthodox religion was dominant in the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium. If it were not for the sovereignty of the Russian state after it threw off the Mongol-Tatar yoke, then the concept of "Moscow is the Third Rome, and there will be no fourth" would have remained unproclaimed. After the fall of Byzantium, Bulgaria and Serbia wanted to declare themselves the guardians of Orthodoxy, the Third Rome. But they themselves were under the Ottoman yoke ...
    1. 0
      10 January 2025 21: 53
      Quote: north 2
      The Western Roman Empire was destroyed by barbarians
      The Western Roman Empire was destroyed by civil wars. The barbarians simply plundered the corpse of the state.
      Quote: north 2
      The Eastern Roman Empire was destroyed by the Ottomans
      The Eastern Roman Empire was destroyed by traitors. The Ottomans simply plundered the corpse of the state.
  4. +4
    10 January 2025 06: 28
    Here the border should be drawn not by geographical and political markers, but by cultural and historical ones. In my understanding, Europe is a series of states that were once part of the Roman or Byzantine empires. Or states that at some historical period joined the cultural area of ​​these two empires. Of these markers, Christianity occupies a leading place
  5. +7
    10 January 2025 07: 13
    There is no need to get hung up on this, here is Europe, and here is Asia. The opinions of some abstruse figures should be of no concern to us Russians and those who consider themselves Russian, let them go...to hell. We are who we are, with our strengths and weaknesses, we cannot be changed. For foreigners, whether those who consider themselves "true Europeans" , like the Japanese, Chinese and other representatives of Asian peoples, Russians incomprehensible Here is a statement by Kipling, an ardent colonialist and Russophobe
    "Don't get me wrong: every Russian is a charming person as long as he wears his shirt untucked. As an Asian he is charming. But as soon as he tucks his shirt into his trousers, imitating the Europeans, and begins to insist that Russians be treated not as the most Western of Eastern peoples, but, on the contrary, as the most Eastern of Western peoples, he turns into an ethnic misunderstanding, which is really not easy to deal with."
    And in this spirit, statements about Russia, Russians from foreign figures - abound. There is no point in taking a stand and trying to convince someone, it is useless anyway. It was so, it will be so, their image of a gloomy Russia has been hammered into their heads, almost since childhood. But with this
    This contributed to the development of an inferiority complex among the Russian nobility, which was expressed in admiration for everything Western and contempt for their own people.
    You can't argue with that. By the way, during the years of Soviet power, I. V. Stalin spoke well about this phenomenon.
    “If we take our average intelligentsia, scientific intelligentsia, professors, doctors, they do not have a sufficiently developed sense of Soviet patriotism.
    They have an unjustified admiration for foreign culture. They all feel that they are still minors, not one hundred percent, they are used to considering themselves in the position of eternal students. This tradition is backward, it goes back to Peter.
    <...>
    First the Germans, then the French, there was admiration for foreigners-zats.
    A simple peasant will not bow down over trifles, will not break his hat, but such people lack dignity, patriotism, and an understanding of the role that Russia plays.
    The military also had such worship. Now it's less. Now no, now they too have their tails up.
    Why are we worse? What's the matter? This point needs to be hammered at for many years, this topic needs to be hammered at for ten years.
    It happens like this: a person does a great thing and doesn't understand it himself. Take such a person, not the last person, but before some scoundrel-foreigner, before a scientist who is three heads shorter than him, he bows down, loses his dignity.
    That's how it seems to me. We must fight the spirit of self-abasement among many of our intellectuals."
    Bull's-eye!
    1. +10
      10 January 2025 08: 05
      I don't remember who said: "Russia is a continent that pretends to be a country, Russia is a civilization that pretends to be a nation." When we understand and accept this, then we will be able to go our own way, and not strive to fit into someone else's fairway, sadly wandering in an unclear direction.
  6. +4
    10 January 2025 07: 24
    My body was born in Russia, it is true, but my spirit belonged to the French crown.

    In the recently shown on TV "Kholop2" there is also such a Fonvizin-like rich girl. The problem is that when she screams on the plane "let's not fly to Rashka" - it seems completely natural for her. When she grabs the idea that it would be nice if France conquered Russia - there will be oysters, croissants - too. But when she suddenly rushes at Bonaparte - you don't believe it. She and her kind are organically incapable of such actions.
  7. +9
    10 January 2025 08: 16
    Actually, back in the middle of the 20th century, there was a decision by the World Geographical Congress to consider the border not the Ural River, but the old Mugodzhary Mountains - a continuation of the Ural Mountains, and the Emba River. But the Orenburg governors did not follow this rule - they installed "Europe - Asia" signs on the bridge over the Ural.
    1. +7
      10 January 2025 08: 42
      continuation of the Ural Mountains and the Emba River

      The article does mention the border along the Emba. But the most important thing is probably Danilevsky's quote:
      Where there are no real boundaries, you can choose them for a thousand years"
    2. +6
      10 January 2025 11: 41
      [quote] Actually [/….quote]
      Good day Sergey! In essence, the USSR RAS realized the wishes of colleagues from the Kazakh SSR, who also wanted to be a little bit "European".
      As a native of the Urals, I adhere to the traditional approach of dividing Europe and Asia by the watershed and the Ural River. The position "we in Moscow know better" does not work in this case!!!
      The Orenburg governor, like his colleagues, has to be elected; they simply follow the aspirations of their electorate.
      This concerns the Sverdlovsk, Chelyabinsk regions, Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug and Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug.
      Obelisk Europe-Asia on Mount Berezovaya.
      1. 0
        10 January 2025 11: 56
        The USSR Academy of Sciences realized the wishes of their colleagues from the Kazakh SSR, who also wanted to be a little bit “European”.

        And, at least in football terms, they have become one! In European competitions with Barcelona, ​​Liverpool and Leipzig, they theoretically have the right to play.
      2. +3
        10 January 2025 16: 09
        Obelisk Europe-Asia on Mount Berezovaya.

        Good afternoon, Vlad!
        On the road from Uchaly to Beloretsk, near the bridge over the Ural River built in the 90s, two pillars used to be installed. On one side of the bridge was "Europe", and on the other was "Asia". A special charm was given to this place by the traffic police post located nearby with a poster with poems:
        It was as if Indian summer had been jinxed:
        The morning clouds hung grey...
        The first snow came from Asia
        And he rushed to Europe without a visa.
        Too small to be convincing,
        But dangerous in its hypocrisy:
        After all, drivers on summer tires
        This “happiness” was instantly believed in.
        And the pines, sleepy from autumn,
        Having awakened, they flapped their branches,
        And the snowflakes, almost weightless,
        They were decorated with wonderful vignettes.
        We are in doubt - not sure yet:
        So what's next: cry or celebrate?
        …This morning under the grey clouds
        The world sparkled with New Year's rhinestones.
        The route is ancient, albeit fascinating.
        But don't be simple - always wait for an opportunity
        Be extremely careful, driver.
        Driving to Europe from Asia (c)…

        We passed here on our way to Tirlyan in '94. We took photos. And the traffic police poster with poems simply amazed us with its originality.
      3. +2
        10 January 2025 18: 10
        In essence, the USSR Academy of Sciences realized the wishes of colleagues from the Kazakh SSR,
        Here it is either the Russian Academy of Sciences or the USSR Academy of Sciences, both are incompatible. It was not the USSR Academy of Sciences that decided, it was the international congress. This is not a wish list - purely geologically, Mugodzhary is a continuation of the Ural Mountains.
    3. 0
      10 January 2025 12: 22
      By the way, Emba is a small river, and if the Ural doesn’t look impressive as a border between parts of the world, then Emba is completely unsuitable.
      1. +2
        10 January 2025 18: 15
        By the way, Emba is a small river, and if the Ural doesn’t look impressive as a border between parts of the world, then Emba is completely unsuitable.
        Well, in spring, both the Urals and Emba are pretty good. Orsk residents won't let me lie. But the Urals in Orenburg in May
  8. +5
    10 January 2025 08: 41
    I have heard two opinions. The first: Orthodoxy is "to blame": supposedly, if Vladimir had accepted Christianity from Rome, Russia would have become a "normal" European country. The second: Russia accepted Orthodoxy precisely because it felt that its Western neighbors were enemies, not friends. Enemies to such an extent that they later preferred to cooperate with the Mongols against the Crusaders, and not the other way around.
    1. VLR
      +8
      10 January 2025 08: 58
      The Mongols gave Russian princes labels for rule and practically did not interfere in internal affairs. The scum came to Rus' mainly when the princes themselves brought them to their showdowns. They did not encroach on the rights of the clergy. The conquerors from the West destroyed the local elite, replacing it with their own - as in Prussia, Latvia or Estonia. And the locals for the new rulers were not compatriots, but foreign cattle. As after the Norman conquest of England, when even under Richard the Lionheart there was a division into Normans and Saxons. Walter Scott writes about this - Ivanhoe went to serve King Richard and was cursed for this by his own father.
      1. +2
        10 January 2025 11: 47
        For the new rulers, the locals were not compatriots, but foreign cattle

        The paradox is that now Latvians and Estonians associate themselves not with their ancestors, but with their masters - who, through hunger and sticks, "made them Europeans."
      2. ANB
        +1
        10 January 2025 17: 28
        . They did not encroach on the rights of the clergy.

        Tengrianism, however.
      3. +1
        10 January 2025 18: 02
        Ivanhoe went into the service of King Richard and was cursed for it by his own father.


        So Ivanhoe went into the service of King Richard only after he was expelled from his home and disinherited by his own father. And the reason for his son's exile was different - his father did not like his relationship with his ward Rowena - the last representative of King Alfred's line, whom he was going to marry to a descendant of the Saxon kings Athelstan and therefore did not give Ivanhoe consent to marry Rowena.
        1. +2
          10 January 2025 18: 15
          Remember, Valery, Ivanhoe will be pardoned by his father Cedric after King Richard reveals his true identity to Cedric and asks him to forgive his son. Which Cedric does.
        2. VLR
          +2
          10 January 2025 18: 16
          He banished and disinherited him for Rowena, and cursed him for the crusade he went on with the Norman king Richard:

          Palestine... a son who disobeys me is not my son, and I care about his fate no more than about the fate of the most unworthy of those people who, sewing a cross on their shoulder, indulge in debauchery and murder and even assure that this is what God wants.


          And Cedric's reconciliation with his son in the novel symbolizes the beginning of the unification of the Normans and Saxons and the formation of a single English nation.
    2. +3
      10 January 2025 11: 00
      Quote: vet
      If Vladimir had accepted Christianity from Rome, Russia would have become "normal"
      Russia adopted Orthodoxy because Byzantium was a superpower at that time, to use today's terms, and Rome was just a barbarian backwater.
      1. +1
        10 January 2025 11: 26
        But there was some scandal with a missionary bishop from the German Emperor, whom Olga expelled from Kyiv. And there was no division of churches yet, what difference did it make who would help with baptism. So, probably, there was something that was not attractive in the preachers from the West.
    3. 0
      10 January 2025 21: 57
      Quote: vet
      First: Orthodoxy is “to blame”: supposedly, if Vladimir had accepted Christianity from Rome, Russia would have become a “normal” European country.
      1. Rus' was baptized before the Great Schism (988 - baptism of Rus', church schism - 1054). 2. Rome was a miserable backwater, and Byzantium promised to give priests (only there was a university there at that time - Pandidakterion).
  9. +6
    10 January 2025 09: 12
    What mysterious signs and features allow us to consider Ufa a European city

    my native Ufa is a EUROPEAN city because it is located between Venice and Paris, Berlin is not far either!!! the evidence is simple:
    1. +4
      10 January 2025 09: 13
      fill in the message field
      1. +4
        10 January 2025 09: 13
        fill in the message field
    2. +1
      10 January 2025 11: 00
      Do you have an Eiffel Tower there? Or is that in another Russian Paris?
      1. +5
        10 January 2025 11: 03
        this is in other Parises... in the Chelyabinsk region..
    3. +4
      10 January 2025 11: 47
      Paris even has its own Eiffel Tower!
      1. +1
        11 January 2025 21: 25
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Paris even has its own Eiffel Tower!

        And in Paris, France, rats walk around the Eiffel Tower instead of geese. https://vk.com/video-112108541_456256859
  10. +4
    10 January 2025 09: 15
    Another thought: the events in the artificially created Ukraine may be a consequence of this very civilizational contradiction. The Westerners were part of the Catholic world for many centuries, the Little Russians were part of the Orthodox "Russian" world. And now the victorious Westerners - Catholics and Uniates - are breaking the Orthodox over their knees. They are behaving like conquerors.
  11. +5
    10 January 2025 11: 00
    The Chinese also considered the Celestial Empire to be the center of the universe, and all surrounding peoples to be barbarians; the Japanese did not consider all Europeans, both Western and Eastern, to be enlightened sailors, but barbarians. Modern Chinese probably still think so.
  12. 0
    10 January 2025 11: 28
    Thank you Valery, the above work is quite controversial. To be honest, I gave it a plus, although I don't agree with a number of points.
    Therefore, I will focus on something else:
    Later, the place of the Byzantine “heretics” was taken by the Russians, and in 1704 the Swedish pastor (and superintendent of Ingria) Nikolai Bergius

    By this time, most of the territory entrusted to him had already been annexed by Russia. Therefore, this theorist "spelt out" his "research" in the capital of the kingdom - Stoholm.
    1. VLR
      +6
      10 January 2025 11: 34
      Well, of course, not in Moscow. That's what I'm writing about:
      Nikolai Bergius in his dissertation published in Stockholm

      If he had written, for example, in captivity in Tobolsk, who knows what conclusions the cold Siberian air would have led him to smile
      And the article, of course, is initially polemical.
      1. +1
        10 January 2025 12: 02
        Good day, Valery!
        I am just clarifying your quote from the article. I apologize for not quoting it in full.
        The oxymoron of the situation was that he was filling the post of the territories already alienated by Russia and therefore had time to write libels!!! And while sitting around in the capital.
      2. 0
        10 January 2025 12: 05
        And the article, of course, is initially polemical.

        This is exactly why I love your work!!!
        "I've already found the globe in the trash, now I'm off to catch a kitty. Why not an owl? I haven't learned to fly yet. Kitty-kitty-kitty..."
        feel
    2. +2
      Today, 01: 47
      He simply could not write anything else; such were the relations between Catholics and Orthodox at that time.
      The official attitude of the Roman Catholic Church towards the Eastern (Orthodox) Churches not in communion with it, including the local Orthodox Churches, is expressed in the Decree of the Second Vatican Council “Unitatis redintegratio”:
      a considerable number of communities have separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, sometimes not without human fault on both sides. However, those who are now born in such Communities and are filled with faith in Christ cannot be accused of the sin of separation, and the Catholic Church receives them with fraternal respect and love. For those who believe in Christ and have been duly baptized are in a certain communion with the Catholic Church, even if imperfect... Nevertheless, having been justified by faith in baptism, they are united to Christ and therefore rightly bear the name of Christians, and the children of the Catholic Church with full reason recognize them as brothers in the Lord[2].

      That is, now Catholics recognize Orthodox Christians. But the decree Unitatis Redintegratio was written and approved by the Pope only in 1964, in the 18th century the view on this issue was different.
      Only here
  13. 0
    10 January 2025 11: 48
    The border depends on the weather, on the climate, and therefore it is floating, because the climate changes, the more or less stable border is the Ural Mountains.
    In Europe, the Atlantic makes the weather, in Asia it’s different, everything else is dependent on the climate, but the climate is constantly changing, all major historical movements are connected with climate change, the deeper into history, the more so.
    1. +1
      10 January 2025 12: 08
      Quote: Andobor
      The border depends on the weather, on the climate, and therefore it is floating, because the climate changes, the more or less stable border is the Ural Mountains.
      In Europe, the Atlantic makes the weather, in Asia it’s different, everything else is dependent on the climate, but the climate is constantly changing, all major historical movements are connected with climate change, the deeper into history, the more so.

      No way!!! It's all Pugacheva's fault, after whose speech the Ural Mountains appeared on the map! wassat
      1. VLR
        +2
        10 January 2025 12: 26
        Pugacheva is to blame

        Here, of course, the last letter "a" is superfluous.
        after whose speech the Ural Mountains appeared on the map

        Instead of Yaitsky? laughing
  14. -2
    10 January 2025 12: 35
    People have been trying to divide the earth into Europe and Asia for a very long time, problem only in that no natural boundaries between these parts of the world simply exist.

    There is no problem, actually, because it is of little importance for almost anyone.

    But there is, apparently, a conditional, blurred border: in Europe, the majority of people are Europeans, and Russians are also Europeans. The average Russian is practically indistinguishable from the average Pole, German, etc.

    the representatives of the upper classes of Russian society did not know their people and did not understand them, which ultimately led to the fall of the empire

    Well, yes, the representatives of the upper classes of German, Turkish, English, and Hungarian society, apparently, also did not know their people and did not understand them, which, ultimately, led to the fall of empires
    Russia can be compared to an oak tree on which a beautiful plant, mistletoe, was parasitizing. It all ended with the mistletoe being destroyed, and it turned out that the oak tree could do just fine without it.


    It is hard to disagree - not only Russia, but also dozens of other countries do just fine without mistletoe, which briefly struck Russia.
    In just 10 years in the Soviet Union появились brilliant designers, engineers, architects, physicists, chemists, a new intellectual elite was formed, whose representatives were people who did not have the opportunity for self-realization under the tsarist regime.

    You can even tell the author where they came from - from Russian universities, where they were taught by the "disappeared" Russian professors, scientists, academicians - this is Saint Petersburg Practical Technological Institute, outstanding scientists taught and worked there, including F. F. Belshtein, B. V. Byzov, A. V. Gadolin, G. I. Hess, A. A. Grinberg, V. K. Zvorykin, A. F. Ioffe, D. P. Konovalov, Yu. N. Kukushkin, S. V. Lebedev, F. F. Lender, D. I. Mendeleev, A. A. Petrov, B. L. Rozing, N. L. Shchukin, A. S. Zaraysky, Imperial Moscow Technical School (IMTS)., where N. E. Zhukovsky worked. P. N. Lebedev, P. P. Lazarev, V. S. Shcheglyaev, S. I. Vavilov.A. S. Ershov, P. L. Chebyshev N. I. Mertsalov Sidorov, P. K. Khudyakov, etc. Moscow State University and other Russian universities and their branches and offshoots.

    That is where physicists, chemists, etc. "appeared" from, that is where they appeared earlier and would appear later - always.

    It is unknown who tried but "could not" realize themselves...

    But in a "non-medieval" country, representatives of the "hostile" classes were deprived of the right to higher education
    1. 0
      10 January 2025 12: 39
      It is unknown who tried but "could not" realize themselves.

      The notorious "cook's children" from the decree of Alexander 3?
      1. 0
        10 January 2025 12: 49
        Quote: vet
        It is unknown who tried but "could not" realize themselves.

        The notorious "cook's children" from the decree of Alexander 3?


        Social composition of technical universities 1913-17?
        1. +1
          10 January 2025 13: 01
          It is clear that the nobility preferred gymnasiums and universities, and the raznochintsy preferred real schools and technical institutes. But in 1913, all Russian universities graduated 2624 lawyers (just like now - the most "needed" specialty!), 1656 engineers and 236 clergymen. Somehow, it is not impressive. And in the USSR, according to the government plan for the period from 1930 to 1935, about 435 thousand engineers of various branches of the economy were needed. And they were prepared.
      2. 0
        11 January 2025 17: 20
        There was a circular from the Minister of Public Education Delyanov, so unofficially called. There was no decree from the emperor. This circular was not particularly carried out.
  15. 0
    11 January 2025 00: 00
    And where was the Eleazar Monastery?
    And how should we now perceive the history of the Russian state?
    Was Tsar Ivan "the Terrible" pro-English or pro-Anglo-Saxon? Or, as is often written now, pro-Naglo-Saxon?

    Thanks for the interesting post!
    But why intertwine modern political squabbles with history?
    Personal opinion... Nothing good will come from mixing the present with the distant (more than 100 years ago) past.
    1. +1
      11 January 2025 08: 12
      Firstly, in my opinion, what you called "a mixture of the present with the past" is always very interesting and appropriate, it allows us to draw interesting parallels and even think about "not stepping on a rake". And secondly, there is no special "politics" in this article - such an academic view of the problem. Perhaps, the quite appropriate comparison of Chubais and Peskov's daughter with the character of Fonvizin's comedy? But, after all, they are similar (and how similar!), what can you do.