The Myth of War Experience and Its Role in Nation-Building after World War I

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The Myth of War Experience and Its Role in Nation-Building after World War I

The memory of a glorious heroic past plays an important role in the formation and maintenance of national pride among members of a community – the French philosopher E. Renan, in particular, defined national memory as the foundation of a nation. Historical traumas are also factors of national consolidation. Thus, J. Hutchinson in his studies paid special attention to the importance of war in the formation of national identity and its maintenance and emphasized that war acts as a catalyst for the growth of a sense of responsibility to the homeland, and, as a result, explains the willingness of people to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the nation [2].

The state plays a major role as an actor in the politics of memory. As is known, images of the military past are actively used by the state in the processes of nation-building and to maintain national identity. The origins of the formation of such a view on the memory of wars can be traced back to the end of the 3th century: the French philosopher E. Renan was the first to speak about national memory as the foundation of the nation, and his position fit into the historical context - after the defeat of France in the Franco-Prussian War, the first "memorial boom" followed [XNUMX].



The role of the state in positioning the memory of war is examined in detail in the book by the American historian George Mosse, Fallen Soldiers: Reshaping the Memory of the World Wars. In this book, Mosse examines the formation and development of the so-called “Myth of the War experience,” which was the foundation of the ideology of civic nationalism in Western European states. In the myth of the war experience, war is seen as a sacred event [3].

This material will be devoted to the myth of military experience and its role in national construction after the First World War.

The Birth of the "Myth of Military Experience"



While World War I is often seen as a conflict between nations, in reality it was fought by bureaucratic states with a distinct gap between government and society. It is important to note, however, that multinational empires were the first to succumb to the scale and intensity of modern warfare. The introduction of conscription actually contributed to the collapse of these empires, since the armies created in this way were ineffective unless they were imbued with patriotism.

Not surprisingly, these empires were in most cases replaced by more ethnically homogeneous successor states. Thus, the war of 1914-1918 contributed to the spread of ethnic nationalism throughout Europe [5].

As Professor Anthony Smith points out, we can conclude from this that long and total wars tend to strengthen national or ethnic identities (and therefore destroy multinational states) and certainly create a host of images and stereotypes that governments can exploit for military purposes. A long war is thus the last chance for a state beset by internal contradictions to overcome these contradictions or else ultimately collapse [5].

The reality of the military experience of World War I was transformed into what might be called the “myth of the military experience” – a view of war as an intensely meaningful, even sacred, event. This view of war developed primarily, though not exclusively, among the defeated countries, where it was most needed. The myth of the military experience gave the memory of the war a sacred significance, offering the nation a host of heroes and martyrs, sacred sites, and a legacy worthy of emulation. The cult of the fallen soldier became a central element of nationalism after the war, exerting the greatest political influence in many countries, especially Germany, which had lost the war and was on the brink of chaos.[1]

Mosse connects the origin of the myth of military experience with the figure of the volunteer soldier of the era of the wars of revolutionary France, as well as the liberation struggle of the Germans against Napoleon. Mosse emphasizes that

"To study the origins of the myth of military experience means to understand the role of volunteers, who to a large extent gave birth to this myth [4]."

The formation of a myth about military experience, according to the historian, was a pressing need of states in the face of ever-increasing human losses in wars. However, it was the interwar period in Europe that became a kind of culmination of the myth about military experience.

Mosse notes that Germany was particularly susceptible to this myth, which had a strong influence on post-war politics – the defeat of the Second Reich, combined with the traumatic transition from war to peace and social tensions, contributed to the strengthening of the myth of the war experience. However, this myth was also of great importance in other countries, particularly Italy, France and England [1].

Cult of the fallen warriors



J. Mosse notes that the world wars of the 13th century became the first experience for humanity when it came face to face with the mass loss of life: Mosse cites calculations according to which the First World War took more lives (1790 million people) than all the wars in Europe from 1914 to 3. The consequences of this war, often referred to in Western literature as the Great War, significantly changed the “myth of military experience” [XNUMX].

The long-term trench warfare on the Western Front profoundly changed the perception of the war not only among those who fought in it, but also among future generations (especially through works of fiction). The volunteers who shared their emotions were in the minority, but since others remained silent, their poetry and prose found themselves in the spotlight. Writers such as Ernst Jünger were undoubtedly sincere in their recollections of the war, and their works eventually became part of the patriotic canon [1].


The war in both England and Germany reinforced stereotypes of masculinity, but in Germany the image of masculinity during this period was perhaps most strongly associated with the death of the enemy. Lieutenant Ernst Wurhe, who personifies the ideal German youth in Walter Flex's novel The Wanderer Between Two Worlds, wants to become a stormtrooper in order to experience what he calls the beauty of combat. Looking at his sword, the youth says that "war is in his blood" - paraphrasing Ernst Jünger's description of the ideal German soldier [1].

The Battle of Langemarck, fought on 16–18 August 1917, became a symbol of the transformative power of war in Germany, serving as a metaphor for the cultivation of masculinity (and later becoming the political myth of Langemarck). Masculinity was embodied in the figure of a warrior who symbolized youth coming of age. Poetry and prose about Langemarck often emphasize this transformation, as in lines such as:

"Here I stand, erect at my full height, proud and alone, delighted to be a man [6]."

According to Mosse,

“The First World War gave the myth of war experience its full expression and the possibility of a direct transition in people’s memory from the horrors of war to its significance and glorious moments [4].”

In Germany, throughout the Weimar Republic, the memory of the war was an important resource of power and meaning, on which political positions and demands could be legitimized, strengthened, or, on the contrary, delegitimized.

The sacralization of fallen soldiers through the construction of war memorials and monuments had a distinctly secular religious character. War graves and war commemorations were created like a temple of the nation, and the planning of such sacred places was given as much attention as the construction of temples. These were precisely the places where the myth of military experience, in contrast to the realities of war, found its complete expression [4].

The myth of military experience and the cult of heroes reached its apogee in the Third Reich, although it was also strong in Italy, France, England, Russia and the USA.

War as a factor of national consolidation


War acts as a catalyst for the growth of a sense of responsibility to the homeland and, as a consequence, explains the willingness of people to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the nation, regarding it as a moral duty. At the same time, the memories that remain after the end of the war are much more significant than the experience of its conduct itself. This is expressed in the practice of “remembrance” or “remembrance” (remembrance), which is supported by the state through various ceremonies perpetuating the memory of war heroes and depends on whether the community emerged from the conflict as a winner or a loser [2].

War can produce various myths that help to strengthen the national identity of a group. Thus, legends about the founding of a community (the Battle of Sedan as a prologue to the unification of Germany) and about a golden age (the Reconquista in Spain) can be singled out as a special category. Myths are often created about events that have traumatized a nation, but which then serve to explain the failures that haunt it in the present (the memory of the Battle of Kosovo in 1389).

J. Hutchinson notes that rituals of commemoration of those killed in wars serve to maintain a sense of unity among members of the collective and, moreover, to instill in them the idea that they have withstood the threat of death, and therefore, have overcome death. In this regard, the tradition of honoring fallen soldiers, which has become a kind of link between the living and the dead, is central to the nationalist cult. In the conditions of total wars during the industrialization era of the 2th century, the cult of individual heroism was replaced by the worship of the unknown soldier, personifying the sacrifice of the entire nation [XNUMX].

The formation of a myth about military experience was thus an urgent need of states in the face of ever-increasing human losses in wars.

The Decline of the Myth of Military Experience


After the Second World War, the "myth of military experience" is in decline everywhere. Fallen soldiers are gradually desacralized, from being war heroes they become victims of war, the general emphasis of war memory is shifted from the figure of the hero to the figure of the victim. The very forms of war commemorations are changing: from a cult, "liturgical" function (liturgical function), monuments change form in favor of a utilitarian function (parks, gardens, libraries [4].

Nowadays, state memory policy in relation to a particular war begins with the fact that the very use of the word “war” in the name of an armed conflict is an act of memory policy. After all, the state is not always ready to use the term “war” for a military conflict and recognize its political aspects.

The memory of past wars can also be used within the framework of symbolic politics to legitimize contemporary armed conflicts. Recently, there has been a decontextualization of the memory of wars, with special emphasis being placed on the memory of fallen soldiers as an example of the continuity of military virtues and devotion to the Fatherland. This separates the "the causes of war from its participants, and also encourages the refusal to publicly discuss the dilemmas of modern conflicts" [five].

This is happening, among other things, because modern states, which are increasingly experiencing the processes of globalization, are finding it increasingly difficult to conceptualize the nature of modern wars.

Использованная литература:
[1]. George L. Mosse. Fallen Soldiers. Reshaping the Memory of the World Wars. 1991. Oxford University Press, New York.
[2]. S. V. Kuznetsova. Historical memory and everyday nationalism in the interpretation of ethno-symbolism. // Bulletin of the Lobachevsky University of Nizhny Novgorod. - 2012. No. 6 (3) - P. 131-136.
[3]. Batishchev R. Yu. Theoretical and methodological approaches to the study of the memory of wars in modern MEMORY STUDIES. // Bulletin of Moscow University. Series 12. Political sciences. 2021, No. 3. P. 48-68
[4]. Batishchev R. Yu. Memory of wars and “memory wars” in modern memory studies: main approaches to study and key actors // Tempus et Memoria. 2021. Vol. 2. No. 1. Pp. 34–42.
[5]. Anthony D. Smith. War and ethnicity: The role of warfare in the formation, self‐images and cohesion of ethnic communities. – 1981. Ethnic and Racial Studies, 4, 4, 375-397.
[6]. From the play Langemarck, quoted by Theodor Maus, “Langemarck, Geschichte und Dichtung,” Zeitschrift für Deutsche Bildung, Heft 11, vol. 13 (November 1937), 503.
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  1. +9
    8 January 2025 05: 14
    The outcome of all empires is predetermined. In the end, they lose even what they had. Imperial desires end in great sacrifices. The spirit of the imperialists themselves is undermined. Kipling, an imperialist to the core, ceased to be one when he lost his son. Not finding him, he carved an inscription on a mass grave: "We lie here because our fathers lied to us." Sometimes the personal grows into the general.
    1. +15
      8 January 2025 06: 33
      "All empires are doomed to fall. They overestimate their strength, take too much land, make too many enemies. They are eaten up from within by corruption, greed, betrayal."
    2. +5
      8 January 2025 10: 10
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      The outcome of all empires is predetermined. In the end, they lose even what they had. Imperial desires end in great sacrifices.

      I personally believe that the Russian state is an empire. Only one oriented towards itself.
      China is somewhat similar, because it is also an empire and is oriented towards itself.
      That's why I disagree with you.

      Yes, such ugly empires as the English must be destroyed.
      But the Roman one was normal in the first 700 years, despite slavery. Also the Turkish one was better than the European ones, although it is alien to us.

      In general, when an empire brings development to its territories, it is right.
    3. +3
      8 January 2025 16: 30
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      The outcome of all empires is predetermined. In the end, they lose even what they had.
      How many states and tribes did the Roman Empire survive?
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      Imperial desires end in great sacrifices.
      Without the empire there would have been more victims. An example is Rus and Russia. Rus suffered greatly from the raids of the Crimean Khanate, the Russian Empire put an end to the Crimean Khanate and rebuffed its suzerain.
  2. +8
    8 January 2025 06: 13
    In my opinion, there is much more negative in war, in this case there should be a balance of unconditional respect for the soldiers who went through it with the mention of the victims that this war brought.
  3. +3
    8 January 2025 06: 59
    In the USSR, they tried to remind only a minimum about the glorious heroic past of Russia. Everything heroic in Russia began only in 1917. Monuments and memorials were opened to the victories of the Reds in the Civil War and the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War, they filled volumes of history textbooks, but they tried not to remember how and who from the small Moscow principality created the largest and most powerful Russian Empire in the world. Moreover, under Khrushchev and Brezhnev, they tried to forget not only the princes, tsars, emperors who created the Russian Empire, but they also tried to forget Stalin, who created and preserved the great Red Empire - the USSR. Not only did they throw mud at Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great and declare them tyrants, but they did the same with Stalin.
    In England and France, for example, their kings, as well as Cromwell and Robespierre, chopped off so many heads that in comparison to them, Ivan the Terrible and Stalin are just innocent babies. And there are still monuments to them, and the French are allowed to respect Napoleon, who lost and killed a million Frenchmen... So the state policy of memory has been under surveillance in Russia for at least a hundred years.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +4
        8 January 2025 10: 44
        Well, who would yelp. You, enemies of the USSR, who seized the republics of the USSR, have completely rejected the entire centuries-old history of our country and people. You have all equally slandered the Soviet period of the history of our country; for those who seized the largest republic of the USSR, the pre-revolutionary period begins and ends with the reign of the last Russian monarch falsified by them in order to create yet another of the heap of anti-Soviet myths.
        And for those who captured the national republics of the USSR, the pre-revolutionary period is that the Russians occupied and oppressed them.

        And there are also a bunch of young talents who, under the guise of patriotism, shit on Soviet soldiers.
        And they are invited on TV.
        1. +3
          8 January 2025 11: 31
          This scum is mastering German grants, and this garbage dump is run by people of democratic nationality.
        2. +1
          8 January 2025 20: 33
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          And there are also a lot of young talents who, hiding behind

          If it’s not a secret, why are you promoting this? feel
          1. 0
            8 January 2025 21: 45
            If it's not a secret, why are you promoting this? feel


            So, are "wanted" posters propaganda for crime?
            However, it is already clear which side you are on. On the side of the Nazis. Yes
            1. -2
              9 January 2025 01: 15
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              So, are "wanted" posters propaganda for crime?

              Are you a policeman? Or a CIPSO agent? I think the latter... request
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              However, it is already clear which side you are on. On the side of the Nazis

              You are a banal provocateur, it seems paid hi
              1. +1
                10 January 2025 23: 41
                The character makes excuses for the traitor Kuzminov, what else can be said about this?
                1. 0
                  12 January 2025 00: 51
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  Or a CIPSO agent? I think the latter...

                  In general, I answered above, it's strange that these people aren't banned request
        3. +2
          8 January 2025 21: 27
          And there are also a bunch of young talents who, under the guise of patriotism, shit on Soviet soldiers.
          And they are invited on TV.
          I don't get it: what's wrong with this video?
          what specific complaints, or did you just write it like that - to throw a piece of shit at the fan?
          1. 0
            8 January 2025 21: 48
            I don't get it: what's wrong with this video?
            what specific complaints, or did you just write it like that - to throw a piece of shit at the fan?

            Is it too much trouble to watch the video? Or are you not smart enough?
            Or do you think the Timin ratio of 1 to 10 is correct?
            1. 0
              8 January 2025 21: 54
              I consider it quite acceptable. But I cannot call it correct or incorrect - I have not done any research into this issue.

              And I don't see any grounds for criticizing Timin, except for his stupid jokes while filming the videos. But overall, the man has a completely correct critical-analytical approach to studying the materials.
              And the Archival Revolution project personally evokes only approval from me.
              1. 0
                8 January 2025 22: 01
                I consider it quite acceptable. But I cannot call it correct or incorrect - I have not done any research into this issue.

                You can count whatever you want, but in reality, with such ratios, one of the parties will disappear completely in less than a month. Without any chance of revival, which was not even close. And the final figures are very far from the insinuations of Mishka the pawnbroker.


                And I don't see any grounds for criticizing Timin, except for his stupid jokes while filming the videos. But overall, the man has a completely correct critical-analytical approach to studying the materials.
                And the Archival Revolution project personally evokes only approval from me.


                This is because you don't understand this issue at all. Just like your idol.
                1. +1
                  8 January 2025 22: 06
                  At such ratios, one of the sides will disappear completely in less than a month.
                  Will it disappear because it will disappear? laughing
                  Can you justify this somehow? And what exactly will disappear?
                  This is because you don't understand this issue at all. Just like your idol.
                  Timin is not my idol, I have no idols.
                  I really don't know much about Air Force losses, but that doesn't automatically make me an idiot. laughing
                  I will repeat once again: I also consider the APPROACH that Timin calls correct when conducting historical research to be correct - I completely share his thoughts.
                  And I seriously doubt that you personally will be able to retell this approach, much less criticize it in a reasoned manner.
                  1. 0
                    9 January 2025 09: 00
                    Will it disappear because it will disappear? laughing
                    Can you justify this somehow? And what exactly will disappear?

                    Doesn't the simple thought that an enemy with such superiority would simply destroy all materiel and flight personnel occur to you? lol

                    Timin is not my idol, I have no idols.
                    I really don't know much about Air Force losses, but that doesn't automatically make me an idiot.


                    Until you start judging issues that you admit you don’t understand. Yes

                    I will repeat once again: I also consider the APPROACH that Timin calls correct when conducting historical research to be correct - I completely share his thoughts.


                    Well, what is his approach? lol

                    And I seriously doubt that you personally will be able to retell this approach, much less criticize it in a reasoned manner.

                    I'll wait for you to tell me about the thymine APPROACH. laughing
                    1. 0
                      9 January 2025 13: 41
                      Doesn't the simple thought that an enemy with such superiority would simply destroy all materiel and flight personnel occur to you?
                      But doesn’t it occur to you that during the Great Patriotic War the USSR did not stop producing aircraft (on the contrary, the rate of production increased), and thousands of aircraft were also supplied by the Allies under the Lend-Lease program?
                      And it doesn’t occur to you that personnel were also constantly being trained to join the Air Force?
                      You don’t know elementary things, but at the same time you decide to indiscriminately accuse a historian of lying.
                      Until you start judging issues that you admit you don’t understand.
                      My dear, I do not judge matters that I do not understand.
                      You do this by indiscriminately accusing Timin of lying.
                      Or are you an expert on Air Force losses? Maybe you can provide a link to your work on this issue?
                      Well, what is his approach?
                      Well, as I expected: you know nothing about Timin's approach to conducting research, but that doesn't stop you from indiscriminately accusing him of lying.

                      The approach is simple: take a critical approach to all sources of information, double-check all information, when conducting research try to find and carefully study information contained not only in the documents of the Red Army, but also in the documents of the enemy, and then, by comparing data and analyzing sources, put forward final versions of how events actually occurred.
                      And not to write history by studying the memoirs of the participants of the Great Patriotic War, supporting what is stated in them with data from award sheets, naively believing that this is quite sufficient for the truth
                      1. -1
                        9 January 2025 14: 02
                        But doesn’t it occur to you that during the Great Patriotic War the USSR did not stop producing aircraft (on the contrary, the rate of production increased), and thousands of aircraft were also supplied by the Allies under the Lend-Lease program?


                        What, the Germans didn't produce airplanes? And all of Europe didn't work for this production? And what was the service life of Soviet-made airplanes due to the duralumin shortage, do you know?
                        However, you can compare the losses of the flight personnel of the parties, perhaps this will sober you up.

                        And it doesn’t occur to you that personnel were also constantly being trained to join the Air Force?
                        You don’t know elementary things, but at the same time you decide to indiscriminately accuse a historian of lying.


                        That's the point, I am the one who understands these issues, unlike you and Timin.

                        My dear, I do not judge matters that I do not understand.


                        Why are you arguing with me?

                        You do this by indiscriminately accusing Timin of lying.
                        Or are you an expert on Air Force losses? Maybe you can provide a link to your work on this issue?


                        Why? Soviet losses have long been calculated by categories. It is precisely Timin that they do not suit.

                        Well, as I expected: you know nothing about Timin's approach to conducting research, but that doesn't stop you from indiscriminately accusing him of lying.


                        You are lying. There is nothing special in Timin's approach, just a banal lie without any evidence.
                        On the Sky Artist channel we regularly analyze his works.
                        This one, Timin, even calculates the damage to planes as a percentage, like a gamer. lol

                        The approach is simple: take a critical approach to all sources of information, double-check the information, when conducting research carefully study the information contained not only in the documents of the Red Army, but also in the documents of the Wehrmacht, and then, by comparing the data and analyzing the sources, put forward final versions of how the events actually took place.


                        To do this, you need to at least know how office work is organized in the Red Army Air Force and the Luftwaffe, which Timin does not know at all.
                        Do you even know how many German documents have survived?

                        And not to write history by studying the memoirs of the participants of the Great Patriotic War, supporting what is stated in them with data from the award sheets


                        A typical point of view of a liberal humanitarian. Who doesn't even know that you need to be able to read a document, because those German documents are as subjective as the memories of their veterans.
                        As for the memoirs of Soviet pilots, the very fact that these memoirs were written proves that they fought better.
                      2. 0
                        9 January 2025 15: 58
                        What, the Germans didn't produce airplanes?
                        Dear Sir, arguing by asking your opponent a bunch of questions is the first sign of a demagogue.
                        If you have arguments, try to formulate them IN THE FORM OF CONCLUSIONS, and not in the form of questions.
                        Once again for those who are in the know: Timin arrived at the ratio he announced by studying numerous documents from the Red Army and the enemy.
                        That's the point, I am the one who understands these issues, unlike you and Timin.
                        Please provide a list of your scientific research on this issue and provide links where I can read it.
                        So far, from what you have written, I have not seen any signs of your great competence, everything is at the level of unfounded statements like "you and Timin are two fools - you don't understand anything about Air Force losses"
                        There is nothing special in Timin’s approach, just a banal lie without any evidence.
                        look above, your "trust me - I know" sounds unconvincing
                        A typical point of view of a liberal humanitarian. Who doesn't even know that you need to be able to read a document, because those German documents are as subjective as the memories of their veterans.
                        I don't understand at all, I think I wrote it clearly:
                        The approach is simple: take a critical approach to all sources of information, double-check all information, when conducting research try to find and carefully study information contained not only in the documents of the Red Army, but also in the documents of the enemy, and then, by comparing data and analyzing sources, put forward final versions of how events actually occurred.

                        Do you disagree with this, or are you just typing letters out of boredom?
                        As for the memoirs of Soviet pilots, the very fact that these memoirs were written proves that they fought better.
                        My dear, you should also count the number of memoirs written by Soviet pilots, compare them with the number of memoirs written by German pilots, and then, based on the numerical superiority of the number of memoirs, make some kind of super-global and equally super-idiotic conclusion.

                        As I understand it, you are a supporter of the belief that "the Germans constantly lied in their reporting documents and understated their losses."
                        I guess? laughing
                      3. -1
                        9 January 2025 17: 39
                        Dear Sir, arguing by asking your opponent a bunch of questions is the first sign of a demagogue.
                        If you have arguments, try to formulate them IN THE FORM OF CONCLUSIONS, and not in the form of questions.


                        Don't wiggle your butt, they're not asking you questions, they're demanding evidence.

                        Once again for those who are in the know: Timin arrived at the ratio he announced by studying numerous documents from the Red Army and the enemy.


                        Where did he prove this? Please provide the facts.

                        So far, from what you have written, I have not seen any signs of your great competence, everything is at the level of unfounded statements like "you and Timin are two fools - you don't understand anything about Air Force losses"


                        If you don't know, then it is Timin who proves that the Soviet pilots fought badly, and you agree with him, so the burden of proof falls on you. But for now you are just slapping your lips. lol
                        So will there be evidence or not?

                        look above, your "trust me - I know" sounds unconvincing


                        Stop lying? Where did I ask you to believe me? I demanded proof.

                        I don't understand at all, I think I wrote it clearly:
                        The approach is simple: take a critical approach to all sources of information, double-check all information, when conducting research try to find and carefully study information contained not only in the documents of the Red Army, but also in the documents of the enemy, and then, by comparing data and analyzing sources, put forward final versions of how events actually occurred.


                        Where is Timin's critical approach? This amateur even calculates the damage to an airplane in percentages. For which he earned the nickname, Mishka the pawnbroker.

                        My dear, you should also count the number of memoirs written by Soviet pilots, compare them with the number of memoirs written by German pilots, and then, based on the numerical superiority of the number of memoirs, make some kind of super-global and equally super-idiotic conclusion.


                        What are you saying anyway?

                        As I understand it, you are a supporter of the belief that "the Germans constantly lied in their reporting documents and understated their losses."
                        I guess?


                        No, you just tried to fart in a puddle and ended up shitting your pants again.
                        You, your liberal consciousness was informed of the fact that only crumbs remained from German documents. And Timin's accounting, between how much the Germans produced, how much in his opinion they lost and what was left at the end of the war, does not add up.
                        Although, you, fans of Nazism, have your own accounting. lol




                        .
                      4. 0
                        9 January 2025 18: 06
                        Don't wiggle your butt, they're not asking you questions, they're demanding evidence.
                        evidence of what exactly?
                        I don't think I said anything?
                        It is a You claimed that Timin is a liar, so prove it with something
                        Where did he prove this? Please provide the facts.
                        there are no facts, he hasn't published his work yet. But in his speeches he often uses documents and expresses a common sense approach - I have cited it above twice.
                        Stop lying? Where did I tell you to believe me?
                        you didn't call for belief, "believe me - I know" is a metaphor for evaluating the statements of people who declare something indiscriminately. In this case, you indiscriminately declare that Timin is a liar and illiterate in matters of conducting historical research

                        And I will ask again for the THIRD TIME:
                        Please provide a list of your scientific research on this issue and provide links where I can read it.
                        Can you show us something from your historical works, or are you just an internet critic?
                        No, you just tried to fart in a puddle and ended up shitting your pants again.
                        Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                        No, you just tried to fart in a puddle and ended up shitting your pants again.
                        Well, there you go - they've stooped to insults, a typical demagogic technique
                        You, your liberal consciousness, were informed of the fact that only crumbs remained from the German documents.

                        not a fucking pittance - a huge archive of German documents has been digitized in the US and made available to the public on the NARA website. And only part of the archive has been digitized - additions are constantly being made
                        Although, you, fans of Nazism, have your own accounting.
                        Dear Sir, argumentation by insulting an opponent is the first sign of a demagogue.
                        However, after your statement:
                        As for the memoirs of Soviet pilots, the very fact that these memoirs were written proves that they fought better
                        your level in matters of historical research is obvious laughing
                        You couldn't even come up with such stupidity on purpose
                      5. -1
                        10 January 2025 12: 59
                        You better support your vis-à-vis. At the moment he is being face-planted here.
                        https://vk.com/club201986375
                        Yes
                      6. 0
                        10 January 2025 19: 13
                        Timin is not my counterpart and I have no desire to delve into a matter with which I am not familiar and which does not interest me.

                        And I understood the essence of your argument:
                        1) the fact that Timin is a liar is convincingly proven by the fact that he is an idiot and a pro-Nazi;
                        2) the fact that our pilots were better than the German ones is convincingly proven by the large number of memoirs they wrote, therefore, since they were better, the ratio of losses of German and Soviet aircraft is approximately the same;
                        3) and the fact that the Germans always understate the number of their losses in their reporting documents is an axiom, therefore it does not need proof.

                        Well, the fact that in the matter of losses you are head and shoulders above Timin is convincingly proven by your statements (after all, what is the point in you lying?).
                        As far as I understand, you don't even have any publications online - nothing to brag about
                      7. -1
                        10 January 2025 20: 46
                        Timin is not my counterpart and I have no desire to delve into a matter with which I am not familiar and which does not interest me.


                        Well, how could it not be yours? You even have the same style. lol
                      8. 0
                        10 January 2025 20: 54
                        the style is the same with whom exactly?
                        With the guy who writes insults in the post?
                        Or with Timin's style?

                        Once again for those who are out of the loop: I don’t like Timin as a presenter; with his stupid jokes and slang expressions he only steals the lecturers’ time and creates a general lack of seriousness in the program.
                        But the idea behind the Tactical Media blog is positive - it provides a platform for very intelligent but little-known historians.

                        And I advise you to read the dialogues at the link, it echoes the issue we are discussing
                        https://vk.com/wall608419247_37?ysclid=m5r1llsdu7760645922
                      9. 0
                        10 January 2025 23: 53
                        https://vk.com/wall608419247_9878
                        here is about who you are talking to, about fakes and about how the percentages were calculated as knocked down.
                        I think everything is clear
                      10. +1
                        11 January 2025 00: 01
                        thank you, now it's clear - I was not mistaken in my assessment of this person's competence, and the arguments he gave me in this thread were enough for me
                      11. 0
                        11 January 2025 00: 06
                        Well, that's how it is. He told me everything about himself. laughing
                      12. -1
                        13 January 2025 10: 09
                        https://vk.com/wall608419247_9878
                        here is about who you are talking to, about fakes and about how the percentages were calculated as knocked down.
                        I think everything is clear


                        Are you talking about Kiselev? Who was caught red-handed in falsifications? lol
                      13. 0
                        13 January 2025 13: 44
                        About you, justifying a traitor
                      14. 0
                        13 January 2025 14: 14
                        About you, justifying a traitor


                        Are you lying? They justify when the fact of the crime is stated and they look for reasons that forced them to act this way.
                        As a person who actually flew the Mi-8, unlike the armchair patriots, I showed that the official version is false.
                        For the simple reason that it is technically impossible.
                        And what's funny is that the people who like to accuse others of betrayal the most are... the responsible filmmakers who are well shown in the film "Clear Sky". You look very much like one.
                      15. 0
                        13 January 2025 14: 47
                        You justify a traitor, named as such by the official bodies of the Russian Federation, and blame the Russian leadership.
                        Is this the Cossack with the forelock sent to St. Petersburg?
                      16. 0
                        13 January 2025 14: 51
                        You justify a traitor, named as such by the official bodies of the Russian Federation, and blame the Russian leadership.
                        Is this the Cossack with the forelock sent to St. Petersburg?


                        Calm down, poor thing. I repeat, I did not justify anyone, I only showed that the official version is false.
                        And the planted Cossack is you with your anonymity.
                      17. 0
                        14 January 2025 00: 26
                        but only showed, the official version is false

                        and according to her, Kuzmenkov is a traitor, continue to cover up the SBU agent
                      18. 0
                        13 January 2025 10: 07
                        But the idea behind the Tactical Media blog is positive - it provides a platform for very intelligent but little-known historians.


                        What is the idea? What are people who have neither aviation nor historical education talking about aviation? And with the specific goal of enriching the Red Army/KA?
                      19. 0
                        13 January 2025 13: 44
                        Do you have any historical background?
                      20. 0
                        13 January 2025 14: 18
                        Do you have any historical background?


                        I have aviation. And your clients have neither one nor the other.
                        And yes, I didn’t drink with you as brothers, and I don’t intend to.
                      21. 0
                        13 January 2025 14: 46
                        I only say "yes" to the defenders of traitors during interrogations
                      22. 0
                        13 January 2025 14: 51
                        I only say "yes" to the defenders of traitors during interrogations


                        Are you a guard?
                      23. 0
                        14 January 2025 00: 27
                        Should I give an account to all those who justify traitors? Ask your SBU.
                      24. +1
                        13 January 2025 19: 29
                        Well, perhaps one of the ideas is to try to hammer into the heads of such putriots as you that an objective historian reconstructing the events of the Great Patriotic War should present everything that happened, and not only the victories of the KA, keeping silent about its defeats.

                        And in order to judge someone’s competence, you first need to gain knowledge, not beliefs
                      25. 0
                        13 January 2025 20: 25
                        And in order to judge someone's competence, you first need to gain knowledge, not beliefs.


                        That's what I'm talking about. What is needed is knowledge, and these people from TM don't have it anywhere near.
                        They calculate the damage to the plane as a percentage, what can we talk about?
                      26. 0
                        13 January 2025 21: 04
                        and these from TM don't even come close to them.
                        Dear Sir, in order to evaluate someone’s special knowledge, you must first obtain it yourself.
                        Apparently, you do not have such knowledge - in response to my repeated offers to provide links to some of your publications on the issue of Air Force losses, you willingly responded with silence.

                        Well, as for the strength of your mind and ability to make logical constructions, I have a clear idea from the arguments that you presented in this thread.
                        So I don't see any point in continuing.
                        They calculate the damage to the plane as a percentage, what can we talk about?
                        So what?
                        If the Germans calculated damage as a percentage, why not calculate it in the same way for Tiimin?
                        Or is it okay for the fascist bastards, but not for our historians, because it’s stupid?
                      27. -1
                        14 January 2025 01: 37
                        Dear Sir, in order to evaluate someone’s special knowledge, you must first obtain it yourself.
                        Apparently, you do not have such knowledge - in response to my repeated offers to provide links to some of your publications on the issue of Air Force losses, you willingly responded with silence.


                        What, Timin has one? scientific publications? Since when is the opinion of an activist who does not even have a SHMAS more important than a person with a higher education in this field?
                        In short, then present Timin’s scientific works, and then we’ll talk. lol


                        Well, as for the strength of your mind and ability to make logical constructions, I have a clear idea from the arguments that you presented in this thread.
                        So I don't see any point in continuing.


                        I sympathize. I see you have a problem with this. But don't be upset, if you want, I'll give you Timin's level of argumentation. It will console you. lol

                        So what?
                        If the Germans calculated damage as a percentage, why not calculate it in the same way for Tiimin?
                        Or is it okay for the fascist bastards, but not for our historians, because it’s stupid?


                        Oh my God, you can't be so stupid and expose yourself like that.
                        Who told you that the Germans counted in percentages? Timin?
                        Do you have any idea about IAS?
                        In that case, please provide the technical literature that German engineers used to calculate these percentages.
                        And why are they needed at all? lol
                      28. 0
                        14 January 2025 11: 39
                        Since when is the opinion of an activist who doesn’t even have a SHMAS more important than that of a person with a higher education in this field?

                        You flew the I16, took part in battles on the Il-2, worked at the regiment headquarters in 1940--- no.
                        So what is your advantage in matters of history, you haven’t even been to the archives?

                        In short, then present Timin’s scientific works, and then we’ll talk.

                        Give us yours already, Timin has a number of books and articles, do you have anything other than tales - how I went to the Afghans and swapped my pants for sneakers? Nothing, for you even the fact that the %% losses were considered a discovery, which you couldn't even understand after all this time.
                        Not to mention that Tyk didn't prove that Timin says about the whole war 1 to 10
                      29. -1
                        14 January 2025 11: 43
                        You flew the I16, took part in battles, worked at the regiment headquarters in 1940, no.
                        So what is your advantage in matters of history, you haven’t even been to the archives?


                        The fact that I studied flying and flew, including in hot spots.
                        And there is no fundamental difference in flight work, IAS, or office work.
                        After all, we were taught using materials from the Great Patriotic War, and we were taught by front-line soldiers.

                        Let's have ours already, Timin has a number of books and articles, what do you have besides tales - how I went to the Afghans and swapped my pants for sneakers


                        And how are Timin’s books better than tales?
                      30. 0
                        14 January 2025 11: 47
                        And how are Timin’s books better than tales?

                        So your stories are also like Timin's? Right?

                        The fact that I studied flying and flew, including in hot spots.
                        And there is no fundamental difference in flight work, IAS, or office work.

                        And that's why the La-5 reached supersonic speeds?
                        And that's why you point-blank don't know how the headquarters works in 1940? And you also think about the tsarist army based on your work at the headquarters in 80 - a great historical approach!
                      31. -1
                        14 January 2025 11: 55
                        So your stories are also like Timin's? Right?


                        You are very slow-witted. There is nothing wrong with making up stories. And the fact that you have already recognized Timin's writing as stories is already progress.

                        And that's why the La-5 reached supersonic speeds?


                        Why do you demonstrate your stupidity so publicly?
                        Well, if you don’t understand what a sound crisis is, then ask instead of guessing. lol

                        And that's why you don't know how the headquarters of 1940 works?


                        Who told you that I don't know, I know perfectly well. They still work like that. Yes

                        and you also think about the tsarist army from your work at headquarters in 80 - a great historical approach!


                        I haven't mentioned it anywhere, but if you're curious, take the military regulations of 1914 and compare them with modern ones. You'll be surprised. Yes
                      32. 0
                        14 January 2025 12: 04
                        It's clear that you're not a historian, but a teller of tales.
                        Why do you demonstrate your stupidity so publicly?
                        Well, if you don’t understand what a sound crisis is, then ask instead of guessing.

                        It wasn't me but Yulin and Potapov who said this, and Yulin also said that Soviet pilots are cannon fodder, have you already made a video about him? Or was there no order from the SBU like with Kuzmenkov?


                        I haven't mentioned it anywhere, but if you're curious, take the military regulations of 1914 and compare them with modern ones. You'll be surprised.

                        .
                        Burn some more, there was no charter in 14, there was a charter in 15 and 12-13, expert, keep on burning, although after Kuzmenkov and Udelny you're blowing bubbles in a puddle really well, TsIPSota
                      33. +1
                        14 January 2025 12: 08
                        In short, then present Timin’s scientific works, and then we’ll talk.
                        My dear fellow, you are a demagogue, for you are changing the subject of the discussion.
                        Once again: you stated that Timin is not competent in the matter of Air Force losses, but you know this issue much better than he does, so you can objectively assess Timin’s level of competence.
                        But you cannot prove your competence in any way - it is not evident from the content of your posts. Moreover, your statement that Soviet pilots were better than German ones because they wrote more memoirs testifies to the weakness of your mind.
                        Sorry for the unpleasant truth.
                        Who told you that the Germans counted in percentages? Timin?
                        No, I saw this information on one forum in a topic On the issue of assessing damage to Luftwaffe aircraft in percentages.
                        See #10 here: https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10599&p=1

                        None of the participants in the discussion disputed the veracity of the information provided by the author of this post.
                        And once in the Luftwaffe there was a method for assessing aircraft damage in percentages, I don’t see anything wrong with Timin using this method when assessing damage to the Red Army Air Forces aircraft in percentages (I don’t know what he claims on this issue and what he argues with - I’m not interested).
                        And if he is familiar with this technique, known only to a narrow circle of specialists, this indicates a high level of his competence.

                        And the fact that you are not familiar with her is evidence of your low level
                        I sympathize. I see you have a problem with this.
                        My dear, thank you for your sympathy, even though I don’t need it.
                        It seems that I still have no problems with common sense and the ability to draw conclusions using the rules of classical logic.
                      34. +1
                        14 January 2025 13: 08
                        Does Timin have any scientific publications? Since when is the opinion of a figure who doesn't even have a SMAS more important than a person with a higher education in this field?
                        I understand that you belong to the galaxy of former colonels who served in the SA in the 70s and 80s, who seriously claim that only they know how the headquarters of the Red Army Air Forces and the Luftwaffe actually worked in 1941-45, because They have a lot of military experience behind them, so they don’t need to sit around in archives.

                        The Russian land is great, abundant and rich in idiots. laughing
                  2. 0
                    10 January 2025 23: 43
                    There are cases when the Germans shot down 10 of our planes and lost 1. The admirer of the traitor Kuzmin has his own story, they can't agree at the CIPSE
                    1. -1
                      13 January 2025 14: 53
                      There are cases when the Germans shot down 10 of our planes and lost 1. The admirer of the traitor Kuzmin has his own story, they can't agree at the CIPSE


                      You either have poor eyesight or weren't paying attention. Timin proves that this is a specific ratio.
                      1. 0
                        14 January 2025 00: 28
                        Well, besides justifying traitors, you're also deaf, well, it happens.

                        specific ratio.

                        Yeah, weight to volume, yeah, that's what I said
                      2. -1
                        14 January 2025 11: 45
                        Yeah, weight to volume, yeah, that's what I said


                        Are you also illiterate? Do you have a specific ratio exclusively in these two parameters? lol
                      3. 0
                        14 January 2025 11: 49
                        Are you also illiterate? Do you have a specific ratio exclusively in these two parameters?

                        No, you. You were taught poorly.

                        SPECIFIC1, -aya, -oh. East.

                        1. Relating to feudal ownership, appanage (in the 1st and 2nd meanings). Appanage prince. Appanage period.


                        SPECIFIC 2, -th, -th. Relating to a unit of measurement of the volume or mass of a body (substance) (usually a physical property). Specific gravity (weight of a unit volume of a substance). Specific resistance (resistance of a conductor with a cross-section of 1 cm2 and a length of 1 cm). Specific heat capacity (heat capacity of 1 g of a substance).
                      4. -1
                        14 January 2025 12: 05
                        No, you. You were taught poorly.

                        SPECIFIC1, -aya, -oh. East.

                        1. Relating to feudal ownership, appanage (in the 1st and 2nd meanings). Appanage prince. Appanage period.


                        SPECIFIC 2, -th, -th. Relating to a unit of measurement of the volume or mass of a body (substance) (usually a physical property). Specific gravity (weight of a unit volume of a substance). Specific resistance (resistance of a conductor with a cross-section of 1 cm2 and a length of 1 cm). Specific heat capacity (heat capacity of 1 g of a substance).


                        Have you heard anything about specific indicators, literate man? lol
                        However, it’s not hard to understand you, you have the so-called empty biography syndrome, which is when life has passed and there’s nothing to remember, even for yourself.
                        But others certainly won't remember.
                        So you're furious because you're nobody and have no name.
                        Okay, continue talking alone. It's a pity for me to waste time on you. Yes
                      5. 0
                        14 January 2025 12: 11
                        And have you heard anything about specific indicators, savant? lol

                        You screw up as usual, but you never admit it, you're still on
                        Specific indicators are secondary, clarifying indicators of the first order, which are volume indicators.
                        And here you go, where Timin talked not about 1.k 10 but 1k 4/5
                        and then I punched you in the nose, catching your lie.
                        Yes, a video about our pilots cannon fodder about Yulin, you are my patriot, the acquittal of Kuzmenkov the traitor
                        https://i.imgur.com/k3taGLZ.mp4
                        Okay, continue talking alone. It's a pity for me to waste time on you.

                        The chess-playing pigeon screwed up in everything, in 10 to 1, in specific gravity, in the 14th year charter and flew away proudly raising his head, oh how funny you are when you can’t ban.
              2. 0
                10 January 2025 23: 24
                I will note that this patriot Lisov is covering up the escaped criminal Maxim Kuzminov
                1. 0
                  10 January 2025 23: 55
                  Colleague, the Red Army Air Forces are not in my circle of interests and I have not delved into these in-between affairs.
                  But in general the problem is clear to me: there are many citizens who consider themselves patriots, who react very negatively when researchers of the Great Patriotic War period, studying the events, dig up some facts that present the actions of the Red Army in a negative light.
                  Or, to put it more simply, facts when units of the Red Army suffered defeats, and often these defeats occurred due to the stupidity of the command.
                  And for some reason, these so-called patriots begin to furiously refute these facts, and they refute them using some childish arguments like “Germans always lie in their documents” and “everything written in the award sheets of the Red Army is true from the first to the last word.”
                  And they call the researchers who unearthed these unsightly facts all sorts of nasty words, and even claim that they are specifically hunting for nastiness.
                  And it is pointless to discuss with such people, which is something that the same Timin (who personally I don’t like as a presenter) never tires of repeating in his videos.
                  1. 0
                    11 January 2025 00: 03
                    and it doesn't bother me, and I'm more into infantry, but here it's clear that there is a group of so-called patriots who don't care about memory, don't care about people who gave their lives for the Motherland, they will run around and prove that the Emperor is ALIVE, that everyone is a fool and Trotsky is a genius, that the Germans are all lying. etc. etc.
                    What I did in the search party at the time led me to the idea - let them write, they don’t bother us and that’s fine.

                    And regarding aviation, losses of 7-10 aircraft in 1 battle, with no losses among the Germans, any researcher who studied the war according to documents will tell you. Even the famous episode from Simonov - there they shot down 7 of our planes according to Soviet documents, and how many Germans - 1? I understand that the so-called "patriots" are in great pain, but were there such facts or is Simonov a liar? Like the facts of write-offs of our planes by %, and many other things that cause a blaze.
                    You can look at Khazanov, Gorbach, Bykov, Zamulin, Isaev (whom patriots will declare traitors, of course) about such episodes
      2. -3
        8 January 2025 20: 35
        Quote: tatra
        that the Russians occupied and oppressed them.

        That's how they were taught this in the USSR! They screwed up! However, you are a Trotskyist from the Democratic Party... feel
    2. +8
      8 January 2025 11: 55
      Moreover, under Khrushchev and Brezhnev they tried to forget not only the princes, tsars, and emperors who created the Russian Empire, but they also tried to forget Stalin, who created and preserved the great Red Empire - the USSR. Not only did they throw mud at Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great and declare them tyrants, but they did the same with Stalin.


      Literate.
      When were the films about Peter I "Youth of Peter", "At the Beginning of Glorious Deeds", "Young Russia" filmed?
      Just under Brezhnev: 1980-1981.

      The epic film where Stalin is shown as a competent leader, not a tyrant, and when was his tragedy (the captivity of his son Yakov) “Liberation” filmed?
      Also under Brezhnev: 1967-1972.
    3. +1
      8 January 2025 21: 05
      Quote: north 2
      Everything heroic in Russia began only in 1917.

      It's not true. Borodino was taught almost in elementary school. Suvorov's campaigns, the storming of Izmail, the war with Napoleon, the Battle of Poltava... The Battle of Kulikovo, the stand on the Ugra, Shipka... Didn't I? I don't think I named everything. No one kept silent about the victories of Russian arms... It was different with defeats. And who else had it differently?
  4. +3
    8 January 2025 09: 25
    The world wars of the 20th century became the first experience for humanity when it came face to face with mass death of people

    This is, of course, not true: for example, the Black Death, the second plague pandemic in history, killed tens of millions of people: according to various estimates, the disease killed 30% to 60% of the population of Europe

    The volunteers who shared their emotions were in the minority, but since others remained silent, their poetry and prose took center stage.

    But what about Remarque, for example?

    Sacralization of fallen soldiers through the construction of war memorials
    The myth of military experience and the cult of heroes reached its apogee in the Third Reich, although it was also strong in Italy, France, England, of Russia and the USA
    After WWI in the USSR, WWI monuments (in Vyazma, Tselo) and even cemeteries (the same Bratskoye in Moscow) were destroyed.

    After the Second World War, there is a general decline of the "myth of military experience". There is a gradual desacralization of fallen soldiers, from war heroes they become victims of war, the general emphasis of the memory of the war is transferred from the figure of the hero to the figure of the victim

    Defenders of Brest, Unknown Soldier-victims? But do victims perform feats? No, they are performedt heroes, which is what they are
  5. +5
    8 January 2025 11: 30
    Quote: north 2
    In the USSR they tried to remind about the glorious heroic past of Russia only at a minimum. Everything heroic in Russia began only in 1917

    What the hell are you talking about? Change your method. There were a huge number of films about Suvorov, Nevsky, Minin, Ushakov, Kutuzov, the liberation of Bulgaria in 1878, Varyag, a whole series of excellent films about Peter.
    And everyone knows how the sycophants of foreign capital present the history of the USSR.
  6. +1
    8 January 2025 11: 33
    Quote: bya965
    I personally believe that the Russian state is an empire.

    And what is an empire? For example, I don’t understand. Give me your definition, otherwise it’s not clear what it is?
    1. +1
      8 January 2025 17: 54
      Good question. Before discussing global issues, we need to agree on terms and definitions.
      The average definition of the concept of empire is approximately as follows:
      An empire is a large political entity that typically includes multiple peoples, cultures, and territories under a single rule. Empires can be formed in a variety of ways, including conquest, colonization, or the unification of different states under a single authority. Key characteristics of an empire include:

      Centralized Power: Empires have a strong central government that controls various regions and peoples.

      Multi-ethnicity: Empires can include many ethnic and cultural groups, making them diverse.

      Economic Exploitation: Empires often use the resources of colonized or conquered territories to support their economy.

      Military Power: Empires tend to have powerful military forces, which allow them to defend their interests and expand their borders.

      Cultural Influence: Empires can have significant influence on the culture, religion, and language of conquered peoples.

      Historically known empires include the Roman, British, Byzantine, Ottoman, Russian and Chinese empires. Each had its own unique characteristics and methods of governance, but they all shared the common features described above.

      Modern states may exhibit some characteristics similar to empires, but in the classical sense of empire as a political entity controlling vast territories and peoples. Several aspects that may help to understand whether modern states can exist as empires:

      Globalization: Modern states can influence other countries through economic, cultural, and political ties. For example, some states can dominate international politics or economics, creating informal dependencies similar to imperial ones.

      Neocolonialism: Some researchers argue that modern states can act as neocolonial empires, using economic pressure, cultural influence, and political intervention to control other countries, especially in developing regions.

      Multinational States: Modern states such as Russia or China may include many ethnic groups and regions, creating internal imperial structures. In such cases, the state may seek to maintain unity and control over diverse peoples and territories.

      Military action: Some modern states engage in military conflicts, which may also resemble imperial ambitions.

      International Organizations: Modern states may participate in international organizations that have elements of control and influence that may resemble imperial structures, but in a more complex and multi-layered form.

      Modern states may not be empires in the traditional sense, but they may exhibit some imperial characteristics through influence, control, and interaction with other states and peoples.
      And the question is: does modern Russia meet this definition? Or not?
  7. +3
    8 January 2025 11: 48
    In other words, all these smart people confirm my thesis that "hurray-patriotism" is a decoy, a kind of intellectual homunculus, which was thrown down from the top (including through support and use in the interests of propaganda of creativity of people with "correct thinking") for purely utilitarian purposes - the preservation of current states. Later, this experience was refined and deepened - in principle, experiments appeared with nations held together solely by a backbone idea (Japan during the time of Hirohito, Hitler's Germany, the Soviet Union, Maoist China, Franco's Spain, North Korea and so on and so forth, the same post-war Japan or South Korea can also fall into this category), using everything of the past and in general the maximum of everything that exists solely in the interests of this backbone idea as if it had always existed and was not written with white thread by petticoat makers literally on their knees.
    Propaganda is, in principle, an absolutely vile instrument, and the further into the forest you go, the more vile it is. Some people are trained to hate others or to swell up like a frog from some mythical thousand-year-old heroism, supported by various kinds of Nibelungs and Valkyries. People are fed masses of nonsense "in a case" that have no relation to either history or reality, and their ancestors suddenly tear out the Black Sea or own half the world, and their country, a couple of hundred years before that, which was a loose thing broken into principalities, turns into the ancestral home of all the great minds of humanity, or, for example, 100500 inventions.
    Under the juicy sauce of this is masked the fact that the more the model is gilded and tall, like a tower, the more it doesn't give a damn about each individual pawn, the more these pawns are abstract for it and increasingly resemble tools or tin soldiers. The more such a system begins to close in on itself, believing in the myth it creates itself. From the category of "design for everyone" they quickly evolve into "everything for the design" and "everything for the design".
    A state that has reached its apogee along this mountain path begins to resemble a cyclopean-sized totalitarian sect.
    So, probably, it is better without all this. Or very moderately. The loss of a rational link in activity threatens nations more than all the bonuses from fumigating bees.
    1. -2
      9 January 2025 11: 42
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      A state that has reached its apogee along this mountain path begins to resemble a cyclopean-sized totalitarian sect.

      Based on your statements, all more or less large and successful states are empires. The USA with its "America above everything!!", China, the Russian Federation, and so on...
      1. -1
        9 January 2025 11: 46
        Exactly! Indoctrination and imposition of supra-national values ​​within a single model, which claims to be comprehensive, including those that conflict with national values, trans-border ambitions to expand the zone of control, claims to dominance that goes beyond the regional boundaries - of course, these are empires.
        Perhaps not in some academic sense of the word, but in essence.
  8. +1
    8 January 2025 18: 54
    Quote: tatra
    Well, who would yelp. You, enemies of the USSR, who seized the republics of the USSR, have completely rejected the entire centuries-old history of our country and people. You have all equally slandered the Soviet period of the history of our country; for those who seized the largest republic of the USSR, the pre-revolutionary period begins and ends with the reign of the last Russian monarch falsified by them in order to create yet another of the heap of anti-Soviet myths.
    And for those who captured the national republics of the USSR, the pre-revolutionary period is that the Russians occupied and oppressed them.


    You write very harshly. In the comments. In 2004, did they elect deputies? And before that, and after, did they also elect? And did you explain to your friends who and why they should vote? Were you able to convince everyone you talked to? Those who disagreed with you, if there were any, were they all scum, turncoats and traitors?
    But for everything light against everything dark, everyone who lives in the world.
    Well, or name someone who is for everything dark and against everything light. Please!
  9. 0
    8 January 2025 18: 54
    Quote: balabol
    And the question is: does modern Russia meet this definition? Or not?

    The Russian Federation meets one definition: a raw materials appendage of economically developed countries; everything else is decoration.
    1. -2
      8 January 2025 20: 40
      Quote: Dozorny_ severa
      meets one definition - a raw materials appendage of economically developed countries

      If it’s not a secret, the US supplies gas to Asia and the EU, grain to China, are they also an appendage or is this something else? hi
  10. +1
    8 January 2025 18: 59
    Quote: Knell Wardenheart
    So, probably, it is better without all this. Or very moderately. The loss of a rational link in activity threatens nations more than all the bonuses from fumigating bees.

    I think you are mistaken - propaganda is a tool in the hands of the ruling class and not an abstract state. And this ruling class forms propaganda in its own economic interests.
    And what is the rational link of activity? Where is it, what is it?
  11. +2
    8 January 2025 20: 42
    Quote: DrEng02
    If it’s not a secret, the US supplies gas to Asia and the EU, grain to China, are they also an appendage or is this something else?

    Do they buy airliners in the Russian Federation?
    1. -2
      9 January 2025 11: 45
      Quote: Dozorny_ severa
      Quote: DrEng02
      If it’s not a secret, the US supplies gas to Asia and the EU, grain to China, are they also an appendage or is this something else?

      Do they buy airliners in the Russian Federation?

      They buy uranium - which they cannot produce themselves. And it is not much easier than building airliners.....
  12. +1
    8 January 2025 20: 49
    Quote: Knell Wardenheart
    In other words, all these smart people confirm my thesis that "hurray-patriotism" is a decoy, a kind of intellectual homunculus, which was thrown down from the top (including through support and use in the interests of propaganda of creativity of people with "correct thinking") for purely utilitarian purposes - the preservation of current states. Later, this experience was refined and deepened - in principle, experiments appeared with nations held together solely by a backbone idea (Japan during the time of Hirohito, Hitler's Germany, the Soviet Union, Maoist China, Franco's Spain, North Korea and so on and so forth, the same post-war Japan or South Korea can also fall into this category), using everything of the past and in general the maximum of everything that exists solely in the interests of this backbone idea as if it had always existed and was not written with white thread by petticoat makers literally on their knees.
    Propaganda is, in principle, an absolutely vile instrument, and the further into the forest you go, the more vile it is. Some people are trained to hate others or to swell up like a frog from some mythical thousand-year-old heroism, supported by various kinds of Nibelungs and Valkyries. People are fed masses of nonsense "in a case" that have no relation to either history or reality, and their ancestors suddenly tear out the Black Sea or own half the world, and their country, a couple of hundred years before that, which was a loose thing broken into principalities, turns into the ancestral home of all the great minds of humanity, or, for example, 100500 inventions.
    Under the juicy sauce of this is masked the fact that the more the model is gilded and tall, like a tower, the more it doesn't give a damn about each individual pawn, the more these pawns are abstract for it and increasingly resemble tools or tin soldiers. The more such a system begins to close in on itself, believing in the myth it creates itself. From the category of "design for everyone" they quickly evolve into "everything for the design" and "everything for the design".
    A state that has reached its apogee along this mountain path begins to resemble a cyclopean-sized totalitarian sect.
    So, probably, it is better without all this. Or very moderately. The loss of a rational link in activity threatens nations more than all the bonuses from fumigating bees.


    You tend to avoid emotions.
    What suddenly came over me?
    The publication provokes both rejection and even comparison with us today. But it is a publication.
  13. +1
    8 January 2025 21: 25
    Military experience is knowledge, skills or abilities acquired during or during military service.
    And what the author writes about is the transformation of public consciousness after the past wars.
    1. +1
      9 January 2025 15: 19
      Quote: Lewww

      And what the author writes about is the transformation of public consciousness after the past wars.

      So he simply translated what he quoted, without bothering to formulate it in Russian. While I was reading it, everything was spinning in my head: the myth of military experience, the myth of military experience, the myth of... And what is the myth? I kept waiting for the author to give a definition... In vain sad
      1. +1
        9 January 2025 16: 43
        What is the myth? I kept waiting for the author to give a definition... In vain
        This article is one of those articles written for a set of comments, where people discuss not what is written in the article (which they skimmed diagonally), but each other's judgments
  14. -2
    8 January 2025 23: 10
    Quote: Maxim G
    Moreover, under Khrushchev and Brezhnev they tried to forget not only the princes, tsars, and emperors who created the Russian Empire, but they also tried to forget Stalin, who created and preserved the great Red Empire - the USSR. Not only did they throw mud at Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great and declare them tyrants, but they did the same with Stalin.


    Literate.
    When were the films about Peter I "Youth of Peter", "At the Beginning of Glorious Deeds", "Young Russia" filmed?
    Just under Brezhnev: 1980-1981.

    The epic film where Stalin is shown as a competent leader, not a tyrant, and when was his tragedy (the captivity of his son Yakov) “Liberation” filmed?
    Also under Brezhnev: 1967-1972.

    What are you talking about! Under Brezhnev, the reference books of the unit commander, the deputy political officer, the school director, the plant director, and all party organizers at all levels were Brezhnev's books "Small Land", "Renaissance" and "Virgin Land". And try to put three volumes of Stalin's works in their place! You'll lose your shoulder straps, your position, and be kicked out of the party. Try to put even a small bust of Stalin in your office under Brezhnev - you'll get the same as for a volume of Stalin's works on your desk. The film "Liberation" does not dispel Khrushchev's slander against Stalin, allegedly for Stalin's unjustified executions of the top leadership of the Red Army before WWII, called repressions under Brezhnev. It turned out to be a paradox when watching the film "Liberation" - all sorts of Roy Medvedevs and Sakharovs shout that Stalin led the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War decapitated after the military repressions, and in the film "Liberation"
    No one is even going to refute or confirm that the pre-war repressions of the enemies of the people ultimately led to both Victory and liberation from fascism.
    Well, and with the film "Youth of Peter" it's a paradox. It's good that the film hasn't been called "Youth of Petya". After all, it's weak to call a film "Youth of Emperor Peter the Great" ... The title "Great" probably comes from the people and from the History of Russia, and the four stars on Brezhnev's chest are from the Central Committee. After all, it's scary that the title "Great" will outweigh them. That's why the film was called "Youth of Peter". There was a film called "Youth of Maxim". Well, he also released a film called "Youth of Peter" ...
  15. -2
    9 January 2025 13: 19
    Quote: your1970
    Quote: Dozorny_ severa
    Quote: DrEng02
    If it’s not a secret, the US supplies gas to Asia and the EU, grain to China, are they also an appendage or is this something else?

    Do they buy airliners in the Russian Federation?

    They buy uranium - which they cannot produce themselves. And it is not much easier than building airliners.....

    Yes, yes, that's how it is in Solovyov's book - they can't. Loyalists are ready to justify any betrayal - passing it off as an achievement. Aren't you ashamed?
  16. -1
    9 January 2025 13: 23
    Quote: north 2
    In the film "Liberation" Khrushchev's slander against Stalin is not dispelled, for, allegedly, Stalin's unjustified executions of the top leadership of the Red Army before the Great Patriotic War, called repressions under Brezhnev. It turned out that watching the film "Liberation" is a paradox - all sorts of Roy Medvedevs and Sakharovs shout that Stalin led the Red Army into the Great Patriotic War decapitated after the military repressions, and in the film "Liberation"

    You have horses and people all mixed up.
    The Sakharovs and Medvedevs started shouting not during the Brezhnev period, but during the Gorbachev period.

    When filming the film Liberation, they tried to avoid politics and put the main emphasis on historicity and, first of all, to show the contribution of the Soviet people to the Victory, and not the contribution of the party.

    Khrushchev raised the issue of repressions in order to gain popularity among the people on this background, although he himself was in tatters, participated in Stalin’s repressions and even organized his own.

    And in the Brezhnev era, they tried not to touch on the topic of repressions (to hush it up) because recognizing their reality meant admitting that the COMMUNIST PARTY had made criminal mistakes, and this was completely unnecessary.
    Brezhnev (when he was not yet decrepit) was a good politician, it was only later that the media made a clown out of him