Military Review

Crossbows in the army. Do you need?

75
Recently, more and more often, crossbows can be seen on the screens with which the characters of movies are armed, the action of which occurs in our time and sometimes in the future. It is remarkable in this disgrace that almost always directors or scriptwriters, I don’t know whose fault it is, endow it weapon the most incredible abilities, fully equating its characteristics to modern long-range sniper rifles and at the same time making it completely silent. In general, the topic of discussing a crossbow for the army has long been brewing, but without Hollywood inventions. And although I am not a master in crossbow sports, I had a chance to try such weapons with my own hands, so I think I’ll draw on the topic, but if something is controversial or I’m mistaken about something, we’ll be happy to talk about the crossbow in comments.


It’s probably worth starting with what place the crossbow found among the throwing weapons. Initially, the crossbow was a weapon that was shunned by people who attributed themselves to the upper class, so that a crossbow was born, like a “mob” weapon. Oh, and in vain at the time of the crossbow refused. Judge for yourself. Good archers have been trained literally since childhood, and the reason for this is not only the archery wisdom, but to a greater extent that the tension of the effective bow was not an easy task from the point of view of physical strength. The bow itself was a weapon that was far from precision-guided in combat and was most often used for firing at squares, and not at specific single targets. The crossbow was a weapon less long-range, less rapid-fire, but it was easy to pierce heavy armor and shields of knights. Now imagine a situation where you are a knight, you were prepared from childhood to wield a sword, a spear, rescue beautiful virgins and terrify dragons. And then you left your castle on a white horse to accomplish feats, and at that time a crossbow bolt and a grimy commoner flew out of the bushes into you and apologize, you haven’t trained to wipe your ass, take your sword, armor, horse, and the beautiful maiden remains to grow old in a high tower. But this I, of course, exaggerate, whatever one may say, and the crossbow was a fairly expensive weapon even when its shoulders were made of wood, although after a couple of exits “on the road” such a thing completely paid for itself.

No matter how hard nobles tried to exclude themselves from these weapons of commoners, the high combat effectiveness of crossbows against an enemy-protected enemy did their job, and soon crossbows gained their maximum distribution. It is said that even the church once declared that it was not good to use a crossbow against Christians and threatened to excommunicate such an act, but I want to live more than being a good Christian, because this ban simply did not give a damn, but the court was not the twentieth century. In general, the crossbow took its place and took quite firmly. It was used along with bows, but if bows were now relatively long-range weapons, crossbows were used as armor-piercing weapons.

Well, now let's go through the myths that created the cinema. Crossbow weapon silent. Haha three times. The one who says so apparently held in his hands those crossbows, which are sold now only on presentation of a passport and even weapons, such as, according to the law, are not considered, but only an object that is structurally similar to a weapon. Although recently the law on weapons has so many amendments that appear like mushrooms after rain, that you will not follow everything.

In fact, a full-fledged crossbow, with which there are chances to survive on the hunt for the same boar when fired, a rather loud bang is emitted, or rather not a bang ... well, in general, the sound. At the same time, if we compare it with the same self-loading silent pistols, from which the sound is in fact formed only when the shutter moves when reloading, then a good block crossbow “sounds” much louder. But oh well, let's say it can be compensated by a greater armor-piercing crossbow bolt and a greater effective range, although it all depends on the specific model of the crossbow. But the fact that the crossbow between the shots will be a huge amount of time, which is even longer than that of non-self-loading silent pistols, cannot be compensated for. Yes, the dimensions with weight are simply incomparable, or rather comparable, but already with sniper silent weapons, and here the crossbow is already losing in all respects. It turns out the crossbow can not replace the silent pistol, and the pistol will be in a better position, and the crossbow in the span.

Now, regarding the effective range of weapons. Well, it’s impossible to shoot thousands of meters with a crossbow, unless the crossbow’s bolts are not reactive, although with a light arrow, but from the top of Everest ... In general, everything is possible in theory, but in practice, when efficiency also comes into play and practicality can be much less. So, alas, but with a long-range sniper rifle crossbow can not. However, the goals of the sniper are far from his position by far from hundreds of thousands of meters, sometimes you need to work on closer goals. So, within the city limits, a good crossbow can very well compete with a sniper rifle at distances up to 150 meters, but let's not forget the rate of fire of the weapon, but that it is impossible to cock it without taking your eyes off the target, but that the weapon has large dimensions and so on. In general, and here the crossbow, despite its aerodynamic properties, flies by. By the way, you can increase the crossbow rate of fire, one of the options for increasing the rate of fire is described in this article about a quick crossbow, but along with the rate of fire increased the size, weight, and this approach can be used only with very weak shoulders.

But we will not write off such a weapon completely, after all, if you already persistently seek the use of a crossbow, then you can really find it.

For example, with the help of a crossbow, you can throw the antenna to a sufficiently large height, although if you use a crossbow for such purposes, then why not start up the trained monkey, it’s better to cope with the task, and if you have a camera, you can make money a case where a squad is forced to produce food for itself, and each cartridge is worth its weight in gold, but who will drag such a fool especially for this occasion? In the end, the crossbow can be used simply for entertaining shooting, because the soldier also needs to have a rest, although here I think it would be more preferable to consume food and sleep. In short, the use of a crossbow in a modern army can be found, but it will not be a combat application, and I will not look for it, although I really like the weapon itself, there is something attractive about it, and it’s not for nothing that movie characters still use it.
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  1. scrabler
    21 March 2013 08: 29
    +3
    By the way, I remembered here ... It seems exactly how a crossbow bolt cut short the life of Richard the Lionheart sad
    1. Landwarrior
      Landwarrior 21 March 2013 10: 29
      +3
      Quote: scrabler
      By the way, I remembered here ... It seems exactly how a crossbow bolt cut short the life of Richard the Lionheart sad

      Aha yes
      On March 26, 1199, during the siege of the Chaliou-Chabrol castle in Limousin, Richard was wounded in the neck with a crossbow bolt by the French knight Pierre Bazil and died on April 6 due to blood poisoning ...
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 23 March 2013 09: 18
        +1
        Moreover, Richard himself was an ardent supporter of the crossbow and was very fond of shooting all kinds of Saracens from him ... well, and not only ...
  2. vladsolo56
    vladsolo56 21 March 2013 08: 51
    11
    The crossbow is entertainment and sport; today it cannot be used anymore. There are many devices in the army that are both more efficient and more compact.
    1. avt
      avt 21 March 2013 09: 11
      +4
      Quote: vladsolo56
      The crossbow is entertainment and sport; today it cannot be used anymore. There are many devices in the army that are both more efficient and more compact.

      I completely agree! He promoted the topic of silent special weapons for Hollywood superberets. Yes, the thing is interesting, cool and the designs are sometimes very interesting in terms of the selection of material for production and execution. But how combat in modern conditions ...... request Rather, for general development. Article +
      1. scrabler
        21 March 2013 09: 29
        +2
        Yes, what kind of development is there, rather like that, for show and somewhere they can laugh, ask: "Why not with spears?" laughing It would have been smaller in size and weight, then it would be okay, there would be no silent shooting equipment, would also go only on the way, and so ... Sport, hunting, recreational shooting, reconstruction of some battles, a museum exhibit and on this, perhaps all.
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 21 March 2013 14: 10
          +4
          Quote: scrabler
          Yes, what kind of development is there, rather like that, for show and somewhere they can laugh, ask: "Why not with spears?" laughing It would have been smaller in size and weight, then it would be okay, there would be no silent shooting equipment, would also go only on the way, and so ... Sport, hunting, recreational shooting, reconstruction of some battles, a museum exhibit and on this, perhaps all.


          My friends gave me a block "Legat" of domestic production, while I'm not waiting for spring a little, I think the bolts will need to be improved. I did not draw up because the declared tension is 43kgf just under the Law. And arrows and bolts can be strengthened because no one will see.
          1. Kir
            Kir 21 March 2013 21: 54
            +1
            I did not quite understand what the difference between bolt and arrow is, just how much I talked and the names in the books are different. I suspect you most likely mean shoulders? If so, look for detailed information on your model how much it holds to the maximum, and then get shoulders like I heard you can buy it and you can hold it, but to exploit it ........... I also looked closely at this, but I definitely changed the stocks, if only there was a catch with a change. And with regards to domestic production, then ..... from another question, for most Interloper puts their shoulders, by the way they have centers of the same name in Russia, and they also have shooting ranges.
    2. Joker
      Joker 21 March 2013 13: 03
      +4
      There is VSS Vintorez, which is beyond competition both in our army and all over the world. Americans even buy it from us.
  3. Egoza
    Egoza 21 March 2013 08: 56
    0
    ".... although I really like the weapon itself, there is something attractive in it, it's not for nothing that movie characters still use it." (quote)

    "A crossbow is a weapon in the form of a bird, but with a snake's sting" - apparently this is its appeal. And how many heroes use it in various science fiction books and films ..... romance, sir! But most likely people feel that this is an "honest" weapon - like a sword, a pistol, etc. Much depends on the warrior himself. This is not a bomb or a weapon of mass destruction. hi
    1. baltika-18
      baltika-18 21 March 2013 11: 21
      +2
      Quote: Egoza
      But most likely people feel that this is an "honest" weapon - like a sword, a pistol, etc.

      We are actually in the 21st century.
      Of course, we can slide down in the Middle Ages .......
      But better not ...
      A crossbow, fun, sports .... No more.
  4. Wedmak
    Wedmak 21 March 2013 09: 37
    +5
    Beautiful weapon, powerful. Yes, and modern onions look very .. scary in the good sense of the word.

  5. antibanukurayza
    antibanukurayza 21 March 2013 09: 55
    +1
    and Rambo turntables knocks down from a crossbow ..... belay
    1. scrabler
      21 March 2013 10: 00
      +1
      Well then, Rambo laughing They say the next film is being prepared, so to speak, the continuation follows Ex ... what would I look like in their years, how their oldies make up for movies smile
    2. Zerstorer
      Zerstorer 21 March 2013 10: 09
      +1
      There he seemed to have a bow.
    3. Joker
      Joker 21 March 2013 13: 04
      +4
      At Rambo tips were made of charges for the grenade launcher wink
      1. nerd.su
        nerd.su 21 March 2013 15: 24
        +3
        Quote: Joker
        At Rambo tips were made of charges for the grenade launcher

        So is it like that of Schwartz in the first Predator? Rimbaud is already cool, he disinfects wounds with a powder charge, what for does he need a grenade in an arrow? what
        1. Wedmak
          Wedmak 21 March 2013 15: 30
          +3
          To shoot down turntables with arrows ... this is of course the highest skill. A massive volley except ... Pilots will die with laughter, the device will fall stuck like a hedgehog. smile
        2. dmitreach
          dmitreach 21 March 2013 20: 28
          +3
          that even in Avatar arrows tried to knock down turntables
          1. nerd.su
            nerd.su 22 March 2013 01: 36
            0
            So in the Avatar, wild Aborigines have contact with animals through bioUSB ...
            So maybe there are some special bows! laughing
          2. Passing
            Passing 23 March 2013 16: 31
            0
            In the Avatar, the aborigines were four meters tall, and accordingly they did not bullet arrows the size of a spear. Filling such a turntable with an arrow is not a problem; nevertheless, it is not a tank.
      2. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 22 March 2013 00: 51
        +2
        Quote: antibanukuraza
        and Rambo turntables knocks down a crossbow.
        The legendary character in the series of the same name films, the invincible Rambo. The cold steel that he used became the ultimate dream of many boys around the world. After 1985, the block bow from the movie “Rambo 2” became especially popular.
        When filming this film, Sylvester Stallone used a Spectra bow from Hoyt / Easton. The model was upgraded specifically for this film. And for some fans of the film, the dream of possessing such a bow came true. After some time, the company Hoyt / Easton released a commercial version of this model. Moreover, in a fairly advanced configuration. In addition to the bow, the kit included a tactical flashlight, a knife, a compass, a survival kit, several arrows and a bag for transportation.
        1. studentmati
          studentmati 22 March 2013 00: 55
          +1
          I think, Lesh, an article about our yard slingshot will be equally successful, especially with good promotion of the product and the ammunition for it?
          1. Thunderbolt
            Thunderbolt 22 March 2013 01: 25
            +2
            "Brick is the weapon of the proletariat!" Why are there no articles about Bulygans?)))) In general, under certain circumstances, I don’t know for a crossbow, but my good friend is fond of historical reconstruction: I held a combat bow in my hands and saw how aptly the Master arrows "lay down" and with what infernal power they bite into the targets ... so that everything new is a well forgotten bow bully
            1. studentmati
              studentmati 22 March 2013 01: 29
              +2
              Accurate and effective shooting is always an art, that a crossbow, that SVD ...
    4. Ghenxnumx
      Ghenxnumx 21 March 2013 15: 36
      11
      Quote: antibanukuraza
      and Rambo knocks turntables off a crossbow ....

      And he can shoot from a grenade launcher while in a helicopter
      Who shot RPGs - they checked out the humor, presenting the consequences of this action laughing
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 22 March 2013 00: 58
        +1
        Quote: Ghen75
        And he can shoot from a grenade launcher while in a helicopter
        a real Indian, forever, everywhere ---- nishtyak, tsezh Hollywood fellow )))
    5. SAFON 1
      SAFON 1 16 September 2013 08: 14
      0
      He shoots RPGs in the cockpit of a helicopter there, so what to believe in everything.
  6. Landwarrior
    Landwarrior 21 March 2013 10: 02
    +2
    Oh, this Hollywood and computer games laughing
    Well, how would I say it right ... Here's a quote, it's true, about the bows, but nonetheless:

    Surprisingly, the old English bow surpasses modern small arms in many ways. He punched a rider two hundred meters away. Through. The same Makarov pistol is effective only when shooting up to fifty meters. But the onion is silent, plus reliability. What about the rate of fire? Four arrows per minute! Only half as much as a pistol.
    But why then they do not use it, why did it hang forever on the walls of museums?
    Not even because it had large dimensions. Archery has been prepared for years, starting at the age of four. And only at thirty did he master this weapon perfectly. Very expensive pleasure. Killed in battle - and all in vain. What about the gun? Six months shot and, in principle, you can keep the defense ...
    (c) A. Kivinov "Full saucer of secrets"
    1. scrabler
      21 March 2013 10: 07
      +7
      And if we compare with a modern machine? wink Plus, the author of this text kept silent about such an interesting moment as the low speed of the arrow, and believe that only a few of those who were prepared to become an archer from childhood could move into a moving target from a bow. There, as far as I know, the emphasis was precisely on training the shooter’s strength, accuracy was already a secondary moment, since in battle the archers did not hit single targets, but shot across the square, so to speak, in one gulp.
      1. Ascetic
        Ascetic 21 March 2013 14: 21
        +2
        Quote: scrabler
        Plus, the author of this text kept silent about such an interesting point as low arrow speed


        My passport has nach.sk. 106 m / s, for fancy American - 115-120
        But this is only for the public with a tension of not more than 43 kgf, but they are also not cheap from 100 thousand and above. And here sv. 43kg. are considered weapons and in free sale we at least have none. It’s quite possible to shoot at crows, but I wouldn’t risk such a boar or moose, I need a more professional help.
        1. Ascetic
          Ascetic 21 March 2013 14: 25
          +3
          For example, the American fancy "TenPoint Carbon Fusion CLS"

          New in 2011, TenPoint Carbon Fusion CLS ™ is the world's first crossbow with a barrel made of carbon fiber. This made the crossbow lighter and even less noisy than all its predecessors.
          The technology for manufacturing the carbon barrel of this crossbow is similar to that used to make the body of the Boeing 787 Dreamline. The use of this modern high-tech material made Carbon Fusion CLS ™ as much as 565 grams lighter than its predecessor, a crossbow of the same design as TenPoint Phantom CLS ™.
          The carbon barrel is attached to the bed with aluminum threaded blind rivets, so that it “floats” inside it. This helps to significantly reduce noise, as well as the transmission of vibration from the shot to the bed, and from it to the shooter. The trigger mechanism, made of aluminum alloy by extrusion, is firmly fixed in the rear of the barrel. In addition, the Carbon Fusion CLS ™ Guide has an extremely low coefficient of friction, which significantly extends the life of the bowstring.
          Just like its predecessor, the Phantom CLS ™ crossbow, the Carbon Fusion CLS ™ has a narrow front part (called the CLS). Its distinctive feature is that with a small crossbow width from the axis of one eccentric to another, it allows you to create a significant supply of kinetic energy (150,5 J!) With a pulling force of 185 lbs. and the working stroke of a bowstring 33 cm long. Thanks to this, an arrow from this crossbow can develop high speed - as much as 115 m / s! The Carbon Fusion CLS ™ Crossbow Lodge and Block are camouflaged by Realtree APG®. The crossbow is equipped with the patented GripSafety ™ system, which serves to prevent injury to the shooter's fingers during the shot. There is also a crossbow variant with fully camouflaged arcs.
          You can use one of two patented TenPoint tensioners to tension the crossbow: manual ACUdraw 50 ™ or mechanical ACUdraw ™.
          The new RangeMaster Pro ™ *** variable-speed optical sight, designed for crossbows with different boom speeds, is only sold with new crossbows.

          That's how the manufacturer praises him
          1. Iraclius
            Iraclius 21 March 2013 15: 40
            +1
            Quote: Ascetic
            crossbow whose trunk

            Uh ??? belay
            1. Wedmak
              Wedmak 21 March 2013 15: 48
              +2
              Apparently we are talking about the guide.
              1. Iraclius
                Iraclius 21 March 2013 16: 25
                +1
                I already did this and that picture. I thought, maybe there really is a trunk instead of a bed. Apparently, the translator tried very literate.)))

                ***
                By the way, I remembered that there were crossbows firing bullets.

                Ballast with a tensioning mechanism placed in the groove of the bed and consisting of a gear rack, driven by a cranked handle on the butt; the ballast has a complete bowstring: double, with spacers and a nest for a bullet; the aiming fork (“boat”) is bent. OK. 1580
                1. Ascetic
                  Ascetic 21 March 2013 17: 30
                  +2
                  Quote: Iraclius
                  I thought, maybe there really is a trunk instead of a bed. Apparently, the translator tried very literate.)))


                  Maybe in English the bed translates as a trunk? Everywhere where I do not read descriptions everywhere-trunk request
                2. Hemi cuda
                  Hemi cuda 21 March 2013 18: 26
                  +1
                  Now there are also crossbows shooting balls.
                3. anomalocaris
                  anomalocaris 23 March 2013 09: 41
                  0
                  Some balletters (aka Shneppr) did have trunks ...
            2. Ascetic
              Ascetic 21 March 2013 17: 23
              +2
              Quote: Iraclius
              Uh ???


              Well, the English language is probably not so rich and diverse, I did not see the description in the original. and here is the original video on the south tube
              link
              1. Kir
                Kir 21 March 2013 22: 09
                +1
                I don’t know what about the trunk, but the Slot slot, the groove, and the bowstring on top are clearly audible in the text, incomprehensibly.
          2. SAFON 1
            SAFON 1 16 September 2013 08: 19
            0
            Something in the advertisements flickered about the possibility of attaching a grenade launcher to the crossbow. Americans for the sake of advertising any crap can convincingly come up with anything. We laughed!
        2. Kir
          Kir 21 March 2013 22: 02
          +1
          You are mistaken (though I mean by free I mean everything that is not by special permissions) up to 75 kgs, my friend’s shoulders are at 60, and so the model holds up to 93! Kgf., But of course it’s bought for hunting, and pulling without block is the same let's say not much of the majority is enough.
        3. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 23 March 2013 09: 39
          0
          Not necessary. All the same, the arrow is not a bullet, and the mechanism of its action on the target is completely different. But here I wouldn’t dare shoot even from the most sophisticated crossbow. To live, you know whether you want to ...
          1. bl79
            bl79 26 June 2013 09: 49
            0
            I saw a film about hunters who shot boars from bows. The wild boars were small, half a meter or more, specially grown for hunting. Arrows sat on trees, fired from a distance of 10-30 meters. Basically, the animals became wounded, ran away, some were heaped in place with several arrows.
            The arrow will not stop the big boar, especially since it has a weak stopping effect.
      2. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 23 March 2013 09: 36
        0
        And then by accident ...
        The archer himself shot particularly well-aimed arrows, and the mass-produced arrow was suitable only for shooting at areas over 50 m.
    2. Wedmak
      Wedmak 21 March 2013 10: 08
      +1
      The bow also pierced armor because the quality of the metal was low and it was relatively thin. The arrow with the tip "pushes" the chain mail, pierces the armor. But the question is - will an arrow or a bolt pierce a modern armor? 100% no. Even the lightest.
      1. scrabler
        21 March 2013 10: 17
        +2
        Now calculate smile Vika says that a certain "heavy crossbow" accelerated a bolt weighing one hundred grams to a speed of 90 meters per second, which is already 405 Joules. As far as I understand, once the projectile was projectile had such a weight, then there was a lot of steel in its design, which means that you can not take into account the energy that is spent in a regular bullet for deformation ... In general, for a throw, 2, 2a class meters with 50 will take such a weapon yes
        1. Landwarrior
          Landwarrior 21 March 2013 10: 32
          +1
          Quote: scrabler
          In general, offhand, 2, 2a, a class of 50 meters will take such a weapon yes

          Which brings us back to modern pistols laughing
          1. scrabler
            21 March 2013 10: 40
            0
            So modern pistols successfully pierce these classes of body armor. From domestic 9х21, from foreign all that was mentioned in recent articles about PP smile We are not talking about 9X18PM, right?
            1. Landwarrior
              Landwarrior 21 March 2013 11: 17
              +1
              Quote: scrabler
              We are not talking about 9X18PM, right?

              And not even about 9 * 18PMM wink
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 21 March 2013 11: 01
          +5
          Everything is more complicated than with bullets.
          Modern soft bulletproof vests do not protect against such types of knives as an awl, sharpening, or stylet. The fibers just push apart.

          So of great importance is the very shape of the tip of the crossbow bolt.
          1. Hon
            Hon 21 March 2013 11: 16
            +1
            What are soft body armor ?! In principle, they protect only against knives and splinters, since the bullet also pushes the fibers and the armored injury will be too strong. The army does not use soft body armor; soft armor is necessarily located behind the armor plate.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 21 March 2013 11: 33
              +2
              Sorry, but I punched the fabric screen of my full-time body armor with a pig cutter. Moreover, the shelf life of this screen (most manufacturers give a five-year warranty) has not yet passed
              "Soft armor" not in all variants "is located behind the armor plate"
              1. Hon
                Hon 21 March 2013 11: 42
                +1
                Such bulletproof vests are anti-fragmentation, they make their way even with a stabbing knife, if you look at the design of the army bulletproof vests, the back and chest are protected by plates, you will not be able to install plates on the sides, as this will restrict movement too much.
          2. Iraclius
            Iraclius 21 March 2013 13: 33
            +5
            Plus. Even medieval arrows with armor-piercing tips had either multifaceted (expensive) geometry or stylet-like (cheap and cheerful!), Which stitched not only ring armor, but also heavy plate with chain mail and doublet. good

            In the photo - the bottom row - armor-piercing tips. Brrrr!



            Armor-piercing tips of Russian arrows and crossbow bolts of the Novgorod case of the period of the 10th - 15th centuries
            The arrowheads located in the bottom row are mainly represented by faceted-awl-optimized, optimized for piercing chain mail armor. The gradation between heavy (large) lugs intended for stowing a short distance, but with guaranteed penetration and lighter (smaller in size) for long-range shots, is also clearly visible. It is also noteworthy that the ratio of petiole and sleeve (by the method of attachment) tips. In contrast to Western Europe, petiolae prevailed in Russia, either as simpler to manufacture, or because of other historical traditions. Although the skills of the blacksmiths were quite enough for widespread use and the sleeve ones.
            It is noteworthy that for the tips of the crossbow bolts the ratio is almost the opposite. Here, sleeve bushings predominate. Perhaps this is due to heavy loads on the crossbow bolt, at the time of the defeat of the armored target. The sleeve tip did not allow the shaft of the bolt to splint and due to this more fully transferred the kinetic energy of the bolt to hit the target.
            Exhibited exhibits of the Novgorod Museum of Local Lore
        3. Hon
          Hon 21 March 2013 11: 06
          +2
          Quote: scrabler
          I understand that a projectile being thrown had such a weight, then there was a lot of steel in its design, which means that you can not take into account the energy that is spent in a conventional bullet on deformation

          Penetration is ensured by high pressure on a small area, so bullets of small caliber have the best penetration, I am armor-piercing projectiles. I doubt that even a 100 gram arrow at a speed of only 90 m / s can break through a bulletproof vest.
          Here is the formula for calculating armor penetration, if you take the characteristics of body armor, you can accurately calculate whether it will penetrate or not, I personally consider laziness)))


          b = (V / K) ^ {1,43} \ cdot (q ^ {0,71} / d ^ {1,07}) \ cdot (\ cos A) ^ {1,4}, where b-- the thickness of the armor, dm, V, m / s is the speed at which the projectile meets the armor, K is the armor resistance coefficient, it ranges from 1900 to 2400, but usually 2200, q, kg is the mass of the projectile, d is the caliber of the projectile, dm, A is the angle in degrees between the longitudinal axis of the projectile and the normal to the armor at the time of the meeting (dm --- not inches, but decimeters!)
          1. scrabler
            21 March 2013 11: 18
            0
            To be honest, too lazy to count smile but it must be borne in mind that the bolt tip may be pointed, and even then I strongly doubt that the diameter of the bolt body itself exceeded 5-6 millimeters, although here it is necessary to take a closer look at what their comrades used at that time smile Plus, we also take into account what is written above, the same Kevlar-based fabric fibers will move apart and not be torn, which is also a plus for armor-piercing ... But with armor plates, I’m wondering if they will take) It’s a pity that full-length crossbows are not allowed for hunting, it would be possible to verify this experience (((
            1. Hon
              Hon 21 March 2013 11: 34
              +1
              Quote: scrabler
              Plus, we also take into account what is written above, the same fibers of fabric based on Kevlar will be moved apart and not torn, which is also a plus for armor-piercing ...

              The aramid material is either solidified with a special resin or located behind the armor plate. I think that the arrow simply does not have enough speed to break through a steel plate, for example, even with a large mass.
              1. scrabler
                21 March 2013 11: 42
                0
                Well, let's take the example of a smoothbore with a coil-type bullet. The speed is also small, the contact area is huge and still breaks smile In general, we will not find the truth like this, we need to look for specific examples. smile
                1. Hon
                  Hon 21 March 2013 11: 54
                  +2
                  Quote: scrabler
                  Well, let's look at the example of a smooth-bore with a coil type bullet. The speed is also small, the contact area is huge and nevertheless breaks through smile In general, we won’t find the truth like that, we need to look for specific examples. smile

                  I don’t know much about such weapons, so I didn’t understand what a bullet is a coil, but the approximate initial velocity of a bullet is 12 caliber 400 m / s, and the muzzle energy is 3000-4000 J. That is, the characteristics with an arrow are not comparable.
                  1. scrabler
                    21 March 2013 11: 59
                    +1
                    Sorry, I missed a bit. Blondeau, the one who carried the engines to fascists in motor transport, has a weight of 33 grams and a speed of about 475 meters per second, so it is really incomparable. So say blurted out without thinking recourse
            2. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 23 March 2013 09: 53
              +1
              You are very mistaken. The diameter of the shaft of an ordinary bow arrow in the Middle Ages was 12-14 mm, the crossbow bolt was 14-20 mm.
              It will not break through the armor plate, but it can split ...
        4. Wedmak
          Wedmak 21 March 2013 13: 46
          +3
          Will it take? How much will the arrow go?
          50 meters, this is the pistol distance, and there it is necessary not so much to flash through the enemy as to incapacitate him. Bullet deformation helps transfer the kinetic energy of the bullet to the body and increases the stopping effect. An arrow can simply enter the body without causing significant damage. The enemy will remain combat ready and while you take out the next arrow, it will reach you and knock it down. Or shoot.
      2. Joker
        Joker 21 March 2013 13: 06
        +2
        Quote: Wedmak
        But the question is whether a modern armor will pierce an arrow or bolt? 100% not. Even the easiest.

        The easiest to break through, I watched the video where they experienced all this. Of course they shot from a modern bow, which is not like the old.
        1. Iraclius
          Iraclius 21 March 2013 13: 30
          +2
          Even if it doesn’t break through, then broken ribs and an extensive hematoma are guaranteed. I'm talking about military crossbows, of course.
          1. Wedmak
            Wedmak 21 March 2013 13: 52
            +1
            Even if it doesn’t break through, then broken ribs and an extensive hematoma are guaranteed

            Which gives the enemy a chance to break their ribs and not only you. smile
            1. Iraclius
              Iraclius 21 March 2013 14: 13
              +2
              Well I do not know. People with broken ribs and a strong concussion of soft tissue are a weak military unit. lol
              1. Wedmak
                Wedmak 21 March 2013 14: 22
                +1
                People with shot and damaged parts of the body, including those vitally important (lungs, abdomen, etc.) in a state of affect or under adrenaline, didn’t do this ...
                I really strongly doubt the ability of a bolt or arrow through a light armor to break ribs. Maximum hematoma.
                1. Iraclius
                  Iraclius 21 March 2013 15: 18
                  +1
                  Testing reconstructed medieval crossbows equipped with composite bows
                  (Beschusstest mittels rekonstruierter mittelalterlicher Fernwaffen ... von Andreas Bichler)
                  taken from here
                  PKL translation

                  There are several medieval crossbows in European museums equipped with composite bows, but they are in such poor condition that no shooting experiments can be carried out.

                  The next experiment is designed to study the effectiveness of such crossbows by testing reconstructed models on reconstructed armor typical of the 13 and early 14 centuries.

                  These tests help you learn more about the capabilities of medieval weapons. We can also get a better idea of ​​the defensive and offensive arms race.

                  The main conditions of the experiment:
                  1 Crossbow (left):
                  Length 75cm
                  Tension: 131kg
                  String Length: 206mm
                  Total weight: 2 kg

                  2 Crossbow (right):
                  Length 74cm
                  Tension: 280kg
                  String Length: 230mm
                  Total weight: 3 kg.

                  We read further - a lot of photos and data on the armor penetration of classic crossbows with composite bows.

                  We constantly keep in mind that modern block crossbows look at medieval composite crossbows, as at UG.
                  http://druzjina.ru/forum/98-609-11
                  1. Wedmak
                    Wedmak 21 March 2013 15: 43
                    +1
                    Thanks. There are true questions about the chain mail used - it does not protect against the arrow, but it is so interesting. Should this thing be applied to modern technology? Nevertheless, I think that neither a bow nor a crossbow will strike. From 10 meters, it may be lucky and it will strike it will scratch and leave a bruise, from a greater distance - only bruises. This applies to conventional army body armor.
                    1. Iraclius
                      Iraclius 21 March 2013 16: 28
                      +1
                      The witcher, I myself have not tried it, but acquaintances from the club of military-historical reconstruction claim that the Kevlar vest does the lancet tip of the bolt without any problems. What type of vest was right now I won’t say, but I can ask the guys.
                      As for chain mail - would pierce any - 100%. Not even a riveted canoe.
                      1. Wedmak
                        Wedmak 22 March 2013 09: 38
                        0
                        Well, about chain mail we are not talking at all, it only saves from cut wounds.
                        Kevlar breaks through, say, as I understand it, that a vest only from Kevlar is the easiest one possible? Or not?
          2. Hon
            Hon 21 March 2013 14: 19
            +2
            Broniks have fenders, so the armor injury will be insignificant, if any.
            1. Iraclius
              Iraclius 21 March 2013 15: 42
              +1
              I'm talking about Kevlar vests.
  7. shurup
    shurup 21 March 2013 10: 49
    +1
    In terms of weight and size, I would prefer ... a slingshot. When using specialized shells, you can not only throw the antenna.
    But you need to train from childhood and can be worn secretly.
    In the USA, hunting options made of ultra-modern materials are sold in stores.
    1. scrabler
      21 March 2013 10: 56
      +5
      Laughing is laughing, but there is even a slingshot even with the model LCC, and pay attention to how wisely and simply done, depending on the angle of tension of the harness, the angle of the target indicator changes.

      And I would prefer ATP, he's Gyurza wink As in a joke:
      - I challenge you to a duel! What choose a sword or a gun?
      - I choose a sword!
      - Then I am a gun wassat
      1. shurup
        shurup 21 March 2013 15: 03
        +1
        After sharing the swords, the duelists ate bitten nuts with a pistol, figured out the provocateurs and reconciled.
        A LZU is good, but the handle lacks a speaker and a LED flashlight.
    2. Wedmak
      Wedmak 21 March 2013 13: 53
      +2
      In terms of weight and size, I would prefer ... a slingshot.

      Throwing grenades, nice thing. )))
      1. Hon
        Hon 21 March 2013 14: 20
        +1
        For this there is a grenade launcher
  8. maxvet
    maxvet 21 March 2013 11: 04
    +1
    She smiled about a monkey, and why not fantasize about animals for an army horse in the mountains, deer in the Arctic, dolphins, seals, seals, in the Navy, etc.
  9. pum boom
    pum boom 21 March 2013 11: 25
    +3
    Somewhere in the mid-90s in Mytishchi, a criminal with the aim of taking possession of a weapon, shot from a crossbow and killed a sentry at a military train. I don't know more cases of "successful" use of crossbows in modern history.
  10. Iraclius
    Iraclius 21 March 2013 11: 43
    +6
    Powerful crossbows require physical strength to reload and a certain amount of time. Very low rate of fire. In fact, a fighter with a crossbow is somewhat akin to a sapper - he can make a mistake only once, because the enemy is armed, most likely, with a firearm. lol
    So, Hollywood is Hollywood, and in real life, humanity has better come up with nothing better than a silent murder to better firearm with devices for silent shooting.

    ***
    The article is written well, plus. Note to the author - a crossbow is not an invention of medieval peyzans, but appeared much earlier - in Hellas.
    Gastraphet (Greek γαστραφέτης - gastraphetes, "abdominal bow" or, more precisely, "belly thrower") was invented around 400 BC. The Syracuse tyrant Dionysius was preparing the city for defense against the Carthaginian invasion. A serious matter was planned. The best mechanics and engineers of the Greek world were invited to Syracuse. The result of the brainstorming session was the gastrophet, a hand-held throwing weapon based on a powerful bow. Diodorus mentions the siege of the fortress of Motia on the western coast of Sicily in 397 BC, when some new throwing machines took part in the battle, with the help of which the attack of the fleet of the famous Carthaginian commander Gimilkon was repulsed. It is believed that gastrophetes became this military novelty.
    The only Greek source that contains a detailed description of this weapon is Heron's treatise "Belopoeica" (Ηρωνος Κτησιβιον Βελοποιικα).

    1. scrabler
      21 March 2013 12: 02
      +1
      Thank you, I did not know such a moment, for some reason I thought that the Chinese are listed smile
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 21 March 2013 13: 20
        +3
        It's my pleasure! hi
        Here are a few more quotes, drawings, photos:
        In the breech section, the gastrafet bed had a horizontally attached arc segment (Greek καταγωγις) with handles. This segment was used to charge the deli. The fact is that the bow at the gastrafeta was specially made very tight to increase power and it was not possible to pull it by hand. Therefore, they charged the gastrafet, leaning their belly on the breech with the arc segment, and resting the opposite end with the bolt protruding forward in the ground (Fig. 4). At the same time, the shutter began to slide back until the dogs engaged with any pair of teeth on straight ratchets attached to the bed. The shooter placed the arrow in a longitudinal cut on the upper surface of the shutter in front of the bowstring, aimed and, pulling the trigger back, fired.


        Gastrafet loading on reconstruction of the German explorer Schramm


        Gastrafet (by Scar)
  11. Old skeptic
    Old skeptic 21 March 2013 11: 57
    +6
    The crossbow has several interesting features:
    1. the crossbow bolt is not subject to examinations and identifications, neither ballistic nor identification of weapons,
    2. no speaker system can determine the direction of the shot,
    3. no heat exhaust,
    you need more penetration - take the "lupar" bolt (a flying barrel, when it hits, it fires a point-blank shot, and the victim's body works as a silencer.)

    But this is more suitable for a killer.
    I like these cars. repeat
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius 21 March 2013 13: 24
      +3
      As an indisputable advantage of crossbows, one can point out the huge stopping effect of the bolt and the terrible wounds that the multifaceted tip inflicts. On the Internet you can find a video where a middle-range shooter literally knocks down a decent boar.

      ***
      In principle, the tension force of modern bows and crossbows is not limited by anything (within reasonable limits, of course), except as the physical strength of the shooter, taking into account the spectrum of the applied tension mechanisms.
      Another thing is that when the arrow is launched and it hits the target, it is physically destroyed. In addition, there is increased wear of the bowstring.
      1. Hon
        Hon 21 March 2013 14: 22
        +2
        Quote: Iraclius
        As an indisputable advantage of crossbows, one can point out the huge stopping effect of the bolt and terrible wounds

        Easier expansive bullets to use
      2. Kir
        Kir 21 March 2013 22: 31
        +1
        I know from experience with fans of this type of weapon that many people prefer a three-fingered cutting tip, they say a guaranteed outcome, there is nothing more than a blunder about it, at least because the descent system works only up to a certain load, plus a little more from above, and a limited length of tension, coupled with the fact that the block systems give a uniform load, unlike the classical ones, where everything is really limited only by the strength of the aunt and the strength of the shoulders. And the shaft is preferred from carbon fiber, instead of aluminum, when zheya hinted and what if from titanium, the answer was short, well, what are you going to shoot at?
  12. bunta
    bunta 21 March 2013 12: 10
    +3
    A crossbow, not a crossbow, but it would not hurt to have something compact for throwing a couple of kilograms of useful mass of meters behind the 50. Cat with a tench, WU, a container with products, BP etc.
    1. scrabler
      21 March 2013 12: 13
      +1
      Well, here you can come up with something like a powder charge, IMHO is more compact and more efficient, and the noiselessness condition is quite doable.
    2. Landwarrior
      Landwarrior 21 March 2013 12: 45
      +8
      Quote: bunta
      A crossbow, not a crossbow, but to have something compact to throw a couple of kilograms of useful mass for 50 meters would not hurt

      At one time there was such a thing - KS-23 "Drozd". The OTs-06 "Cat" nozzle was attached to it, for shooting a rope with a cat hook at a distance of 35 meters and a height of 20 meters
  13. Peacemaker
    Peacemaker 21 March 2013 12: 22
    +3
    But the ammunition can be reused, and it’s handicraft smile
    1. scrabler
      21 March 2013 12: 32
      +3
      As for handicraft work, I would think, firstly, an article, and secondly, there is an example of when a person made a crossbow from a spring, then in a hospital he lay down with a brain injury — the spring burst in half, got his ears. And of course the device turned out to be a good one)))) it was necessary to cock a separate tension block, and it was getting dark from the tension laughing
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius 21 March 2013 13: 28
        +1
        Steel bows for crossbows are already an anachronism. In addition, steel springs are not designed for this type of load. And onions usually burst at low temperatures, when carbon steel becomes brittle.
        1. scrabler
          21 March 2013 13: 44
          0
          Well, because how it is .... use what is at hand and do not look for another for yourself)))))
  14. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 21 March 2013 12: 41
    +2
    The crossbow can be used exclusively as additional equipment for arranging (deploying) cp-communications (antennas), laying cable communications, and engineer. communications in inaccessible places (forwarding the end through a ravine, from house to house, etc. ...) As a popular type of standard weapons? .. It is unlikely. What other, special tasks can he solve that are inaccessible to regular means of arming?
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak 21 March 2013 13: 56
      +4
      And also with a small crossbow, pistol type, it is convenient to forward wires under suspended ceilings !!!! drinks
  15. Landwarrior
    Landwarrior 21 March 2013 13: 02
    +3
    Well, and a little more in the continuation of the "crossbow" theme:
    There’s nothing better in the world
    How to shoot people with a crossbow!
    From the wall the whole world in full view
    Everyone yells, but I'm so quiet.
    Everyone yells, but I'm so quiet.

    We will not forget our calling
    And we will not change the profession.
    Is it bad if the poet’s eye
    Sees the world in crossbow sight?
    Sees the world in crossbow sight?


    laughing
  16. nnz226
    nnz226 21 March 2013 15: 01
    +1
    Mach application - throw the end onto a rock or somewhere where you need to hook a rope
  17. Stoik
    Stoik 21 March 2013 15: 13
    +1
    If we talk about noiselessness, the best thing is a wind pipe with poisoned needles. lol
    1. maxvet
      maxvet 21 March 2013 16: 22
      +1
      it is not very quiet and noise, and the range leaves much to be desired, and the size of a decent wind pipe (a battle or hunting one used by the Indians in South America) is far per meter
  18. Skavron
    Skavron 21 March 2013 16: 35
    +3
    The crossbow is for entertainment purposes only, although I really like these weapons. In my childhood there were no computers, the Internet, mobile ...
    And there were bows, crossbows, self-propelled guns ... by the way, I still remember a crossbow made of a steel plate (I don’t remember where the plate came from), a wooden self-planed bed and a cable. The arrow is from the electrode. I punched a board of 20 meters from 10)
    1. maxvet
      maxvet 21 March 2013 16: 56
      +2
      but didn’t explode in the hand? They made of tubes for frion in the refrigerator
      1. scrabler
        21 March 2013 17: 45
        +5
        Now I understand the secret, why no one can ever beat us))) The thing is, we had the right childhood laughing
    2. Landwarrior
      Landwarrior 21 March 2013 20: 02
      +1
      And if you also remember the "bullets" with U-shaped bullets made of aluminum wire, welded from elastic, clothespin and a board from a box ... repeat
  19. saygon66
    saygon66 21 March 2013 17: 55
    +1
    - They wrote that there were cases of the successful use of hunting crossbows during the war in Vietnam. Allegedly, from such a thing they managed to bring down a light (piston) attack aircraft (hell -1 skyrader, it seems). So, larger devices were installed in the crowns of trees, triggering from the air flow from a flying helicopter ... The question is how true is this ...
  20. Humpty
    Humpty 21 March 2013 20: 01
    +1
    Exotic hunting weapons. May be acceptable for roe deer and ibex. I wouldn’t go on a boar with a crossbow)). I can’t imagine how to get into a wolf from it. Of course, the main disadvantages - it is impossible to make a second shot and the bulkiness of the structure. Thing for an amateur.
  21. kamakim
    kamakim 21 March 2013 21: 50
    +1
    hmm ... watched the historical program, there the Chinese had a crossbow, could shoot bursts ...
    1. Passing
      Passing 23 March 2013 16: 47
      0
      Probably still not a crossbow firing bursts, but a crossbow with a magazine, multi-shot.
  22. Cpa
    Cpa 21 March 2013 22: 19
    +1
    I know the case of the use of a crossbow in combat conditions - a guard post at the fuel and lubricants warehouse.
    In the Navy, the standard line-throwing gun is of a firearms type, which causes difficulties with reporting and accounting; it can be replaced by a crossbow launch or pneumatic launch. smile
  23. studentmati
    studentmati 21 March 2013 22: 56
    +1
    Very beautiful and impressive weapon. good It is a necessary accessory for newly made boyars. good
  24. Nuketorn
    Nuketorn April 10 2016 11: 58
    0
    Add arbalest arcs to the gun - and close the question ©

    A normal crossbow is not sensitive to caliber. Hosh nut, hosh bolt, hosh cat, charge the hosh cartridge.
    Normal crossbow is several times quieter than a normal shotgun. No options. And - no - special cartridges and silencers - these are NOT normal gunshot accessories
    A normal crossbow is not a sniper or a machine gun. This must be remembered. He is closer to the grenade launcher.
    The fact that the crossbow, in principle, does not penetrate the armor is nonsense. Rare. Collectible. There are armor that can be sewn through and a weak crossbow, there are "crossbows" that will not pierce drywall.
    It’s better to figure out how to combine the advantages of different types of weapons than to stress the disadvantages that are definitely outside the scope of the application niche.