BEC vs. helicopters: so, have we waited? Or not yet?

169
BEC vs. helicopters: so, have we waited? Or not yet?


BEC-kamikaze as an unsolved problem


When the Russian special military operation in Ukraine began, no one could have imagined that the Ukrainian Armed Forces (UAF) would be able to resist the Black Sea the fleet Navy of the Russian Federation (Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Navy).



How is that possible? Russia has mighty frigates and corvettes, submarines, the cruiser Moskva, the “unsinkable aircraft carrier” Crimea, while Ukraine has a couple of rusty tubs and small-sized artillery boats? Everyone was expecting if not a landing on the coast of Odessa, then a complete blockade of Ukraine from the sea.

But then the first cases of the use of Ukrainian unmanned kamikaze boats (UCB) equipped with American Starlink satellite communications systems appeared, and the attitude towards them was ambiguous: some immediately assessed the threat, while others, as usual, engaged in the fascinating process of boasting.

The author first wrote about the threat posed by the BEC kamikaze in May 2023 in an article With the delay of the NMD, the destruction of the ships of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Navy by Ukrainian naval drones is just a matter of time. We subsequently returned to this issue several times; links to articles on the topic are attached at the end of this material.

The further development of events, I think, is known to everyone. If the author were asked who currently holds the initiative in the Black Sea, priority would undoubtedly be given to the Ukrainian Armed Forces, since it is the Ukrainian Armed Forces that conduct offensive operations, and we are looking for ways to defend ourselves against them. As sad as it may sound, we must acknowledge the reality - sticking your head in the sand is only good for a cartoon ostrich.

However, now we are not talking about the threat that kamikaze submarines pose to surface ships and coastal facilities, but about how they decided to fight them and what consequences this led to.

The Russian Armed Forces decided to fight the BEK kamikaze with the help of combat helicopters.

"Vertical" vs. BEC


It was immediately clear that the idea was so-so: helicopters are not a very economical solution for patrolling over water surfaces, although they are more economical, for example, than using combat aircraft such as the Su-30SM, Su-35 or Su-34 for this purpose.

With the constant use of helicopters, the risks of failure and subsequent landing/falling into water increase significantly, with the corresponding consequences for the crew - by the way, such cases have already occurred.


In addition, it has been clear for a long time that the enemy would try to counteract Russian combat helicopters hunting for BEK-kamikazes – it was not even hidden, Ukrainian sources were bragging about BEK-kamikazes equipped with machine gun turrets and rockets air-to-air, adapted for surface application.


Footage from a video of a battle between a Russian Ka-29 helicopter and a Ukrainian kamikaze BEK, which attempted to launch a surface-to-air missile (a modified air-to-air missile), but missed and was destroyed by machine gun fire

We discussed all of this in detail in the article from April 25, 2024. Helicopters against Ukrainian unmanned boats and kamikaze UAVs: a temporary solution with high risks.

In this article, we examined the advantages and disadvantages, risks and feasibility of using combat helicopters to hunt kamikaze drones, as well as ways to replace them with alternative solutions.

“The use of combat helicopters to search for and destroy kamikaze BEKs with modules with small-caliber rapid-fire automatic cannons and/or anti-tank missiles integrated into their design may become too risky and lead to unjustified losses <...>

<...> the use of combat helicopters and attack aircraft for the search and destruction of kamikaze UAVs and kamikaze BEKs is a temporary measure, both from the point of view of the effectiveness and risk of loss of these combat vehicles, and from the point of view of the cost of operation <...>

It is important not to miss the moment when enemy kamikaze BEKs are equipped with weapons that can be used against our helicopters, in order to avoid unnecessary losses of equipment and personnel."

It was proposed to use Orion unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) as the main means of countering enemy BEK kamikazes, with their subsequent addition/replacement with a combination of Sirius UAVs and Helios-RLD UAVs.


The Orion UAV is the only Russian medium-altitude, long-duration UAV that is being mass-produced and accepted into service. It is capable of not only conducting reconnaissance, but also using guided weapons.

As a temporary solution, yes, helicopters were quite effective, but it seems that their success in combating BEK kamikazes led to a “it works, so what” solution, and other methods of hunting BEK kamikazes were apparently not considered.

Uncertain realities


Now, information has appeared in foreign sources that over the Black Sea, Ukrainian Magura V5 kamikaze aircraft attacked two Russian Mi-73 helicopters using R-8 SeeDragon missiles, one of which, according to the enemy, was shot down and the second damaged.

So far, there is no confirmation of this information from Russian official sources; there is only a video of the alleged attack, of extremely low quality, from which it is not possible to establish the veracity of the information claimed by the enemy.


Video footage of the alleged Ukrainian attack by a Mi-8 helicopter with a Magura V5 kamikaze BEC

By the way, Ukrainian sources also talk about another helicopter – the Mi-28, lost due to friendly fire, the risks of which we also discussed in the above-mentioned material.

“In particular, when hunting for kamikaze UAVs in the area of ​​operation of Russian air defense systems, there may be cases of ‘friendly fire’.”


Image TG channel fighter_bomber

There is no official confirmation of the information about the loss of the Russian Mi-28 helicopter yet.

Conclusions


Even if the Ukrainian statements about the destruction and damage of Russian helicopters hunting for the BEK are false, as is the information about the loss of the Mi-28 helicopter from friendly fire, then sooner or later these negative events will definitely happen – it is almost inevitable.

Or has it already happened?

Even the unsuccessful launch of the R-73 missile at the Ka-29 helicopter could not be ignored, not to mention if successful cases of defeating Russian BEK helicopters actually take place.

Regardless of whether the information published by the enemy is reliable or not, there is only one thing that is certain – the enemy is constantly improving its BEK, and they will definitely shoot down our helicopters. As we have already said in the above material, the enemy will definitely integrate the Stugna-P anti-tank missile systems (ATGM) into the BEK armament, and the helicopters' on-board self-defense systems do not help against anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM).

"There is no doubt that in the near future, Ukrainian kamikaze BEKs will also be equipped with guided weapons, for example, the Stugna-P anti-tank guided missile system (ATGM)."


For installation on the BEK, the Stugna-P ATGM will require almost no modifications, since they are equipped with remote control

And in general, perhaps it is time to talk not about kamikaze BEKs, but about multifunctional BEKs, whose self-destruction by the enemy is not supposed, but the use of the said multifunctional BEKs is supposed to attack various targets, including air targets, with onboard weapons. Of course, multifunctional BEKs will operate in conjunction with kamikaze BEKs, according to the combat missions distributed between them.

According to open data, about thirty Orion UAVs were produced in Russia as of March 2022. Of course, there is no evidence that this figure is reliable, but it is already January 2025, so some number of the said UAVs were probably produced?

Maybe it would be worth sending some of them to hunt for kamikaze BECs over the Black Sea, rather than risking expensive combat helicopters with crews?

However, there are other ways to detect and destroy enemy BECs, but we will talk about them in a separate article.
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  1. +1
    5 January 2025 04: 26
    An immodest question: why doesn’t Starlink choke on electronic warfare?
    If you just shit in the sky on the same frequencies as the Starlink terminal, then data will not be able to leave the terminal and the TCP connection will go down the drain.
    And for this you don't need some kind of extreme power - about 10 times more powerful than what the terminal gives out. It's pretty weak.
    1. +23
      5 January 2025 05: 09
      Quote: General Failure
      Why doesn't Starlink choke on EW?

      Probably because there are too many devices over one area. And terminals, like transponders, in the Ku and especially in the Ka-range have a very narrow beam. It is practically impossible to suppress such a beam on the side lobes of the DNA. The power needed is a thousand or more times higher than that of the terminal. As an option, launch a jammer at least into the stratosphere directly above the area of ​​​​Starlink use or simply burn out satellite receivers with powerful EMP.
      1. +2
        5 January 2025 05: 20
        What other beam does the satellite have? Does it know where to shine? Does it transmit the coordinates of each transmitter on Earth via an alternative communication channel? Disassemble the terminal, assemble an analogue with a more powerful transmitter that will send requests to the satellite at the maximum possible power at maximum speed, DDOS it to death. And making the power a thousand times more is not so difficult, they say there is electricity in Crimea, probably more than on a boat
        1. +13
          5 January 2025 06: 31
          Quote from alexoff
          Does he know where to shine?

          It has a narrow beam that covers only a couple of square kilometers. Moreover, there are dozens of such satellites over each region and as they move away, they transmit the connection with the subscriber to each other. Jam one, the connection will be picked up by another. In general, it is not so simple there. Otherwise, our electronic warfare would have jammed everything long ago.
          1. +1
            5 January 2025 12: 03
            This narrow beam from the AFA analogue is not transmitted from a laser. Nothing covers the antenna from unnecessary sides. In order to jam the EW, it needs to be created. But here we see that the BKO on helicopters does not work against not the most modern missiles with heat guidance, so why be surprised that the EW is standing still?
            1. +9
              5 January 2025 13: 48
              We started the SVO, having, as we (and worse, the country's top leadership) were told by representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex, a bunch of similar stuff - the best air defense, electronic warfare, etc. in the world. In order to really start working on something new, we need to honestly admit that everything we supposedly had was a Potemkin village and throwing dust in the eyes. But despite the numerous arrests of managers at the rank of deputy ministers and heads of departments, higher-ranking figures are still in high positions, albeit transplanted "to the side". And who will actually do military R&D if only demented grandfathers and effective managers remain in the specialized research institutes and design bureaus? Well, and a couple of people who know how to make beautiful models and presentations. No matter how much money you give them, it will all go away like water through a sieve. It is easier and more effective to disperse all these "research teams" and create everything anew. Only this should have been done the day before yesterday, yesterday it was already too late, and today it is impossible.
              1. 0
                5 January 2025 20: 37
                UAZ 452, who should re-dial and, most interestingly, will the new ones be better than the previous ones?)
                1. -1
                  5 January 2025 20: 49
                  No, not exactly. But the "previous" ones definitely won't cope - they simply don't exist in reality, the designers. The representatives of the Soviet school, who really forged the shield of the Motherland - are long dead, even those who were on hand to help them - have reached the age of senile dementia. And in the 90s and 2000s, no one came to replace them, and those who were there ran away from lack of food, only those who were not hired anywhere else remained. And in the 2010s, instead of real R&D, there was mostly PR, marketing and embezzlement of budgets, and the role of "designers" (standing in the appropriate positions) was reduced to preparing tons of reports, colorful presentations, so that effective managers could endlessly hang noodles on the ears of top management, convincing them to wait for the results and continue funding projects.
                  So whether the new ones will be better is far from certain. But they certainly won't be worse - how much worse could there be than a complete zero?
                  1. +2
                    5 January 2025 22: 33
                    Soviet pessimist... If anything, I am a representative of the Soviet school and technical school in the literal sense. Higher education is almost entirely Russian.
                    1. +1
                      6 January 2025 20: 04
                      Quote: Evil_critic
                      Soviet pessimist... If anything, I am a representative of the Soviet school and technical school in the literal sense. Higher education is almost entirely Russian.

                      I understand))) I also have a Soviet school (I graduated a year after the collapse of the USSR), the technical school is de jure new, but de facto Soviet, since in the early 90s the education and teaching staff were still Soviet... But the higher education, especially the second one, is already a full-fledged "newspeak"! And it was much easier for me to get it than a technical school diploma! And this was not some commercial scam, but the Ural State Mining University! An institution with more than a hundred years of history! But... correspondence, paid education, in our country, is a fiction! I judge from my own experience - when half of the group fails the exam, and then on the retake, half of the half also fails... And? In our technical school this would have been - academic leave! But here - they got together, chipped in, bought a plasma TV for the teacher... And they installed it for everyone "pass"! And a thought comes to my mind - why am I trying when I can do it this way? And, in essence, this diploma is no different from "one bought in a passageway"... Except that it is on FIS FRDO. But in fact, there is no knowledge behind it... Just a crust!
                      P.S. To be fair, the rector was later removed and imprisoned... I don't know, maybe the situation at my alma mater has gotten better now...
                      1. 0
                        7 January 2025 01: 19
                        Soviet technical school is yeeeeess ...
                      2. 0
                        7 January 2025 19: 47
                        Quote: Evil_critic
                        After finishing my technical school, they couldn’t accept me into the second year at MAI.

                        After graduation, they usually took me straight to the third... Or were there some special rules at MAI?
                      3. 0
                        7 January 2025 19: 53
                        I haven't heard of it right away for the third year, but anything is possible.
                  2. 0
                    6 January 2025 19: 46
                    Quote: UAZ 452
                    But certainly not worse - what could be worse than complete zero?

                    So, Oreshnik is "cartoons"?
              2. 0
                6 January 2025 19: 42
                Quote: UAZ 452
                if only demented grandfathers and effective managers remain in specialized research institutes and design bureaus?

                How much do you know about the topic? Based on what information do you draw such conclusions?
                For example, I have a nephew Vector works. So from his stories I got a different impression...
              3. 0
                6 January 2025 20: 34
                And who will actually do military R&D?

                Forget it! R&D won't give quick results (if at all). Now is the time to "tie it down with a wire"! Time for DIYers!
                The task is to find a herd of BECs, and we'll find something to tear them apart with!
                You could even patrol the waters in a hot air balloon.
                By the way, the ball has an advantage in a machine gun duel. And not all missiles can be aimed at it. And ready-made ones are sold by the dozens. But no! Everything needs to be complicated, let's build a satellite jammer...
          2. -1
            5 January 2025 20: 13
            You are fantasizing. Such a narrow DN cannot exist. 550 km orbital altitude and 1-2 km on the earth's surface, calculate the angle using a right triangle. And even if there were such a narrow DN, which subscriber would need such a connection?
        2. +13
          5 January 2025 07: 35
          Educational program in pictures :D : how does starlink work, why is the beam narrow and it is not jammed normally by electronic warfare, how can you send a signal to a satellite without rotating the antenna, etc.


          Starlink is the most terrible weapon (since it gives connection to anything anywhere), and not the Internet for every child in the hypothetical "Bangladesh"
          1. +4
            5 January 2025 09: 42
            Quote: Last centurion
            how does starlink work, why is the beam narrow and it is not jammed normally electronic warfare

            It is useless to suppress transmission; you need to suppress reception.
            And now clogging the satellite's receiving antenna is already quite achievable. And without reception there is no remote control.
            1. +15
              5 January 2025 09: 51
              Which satellite exactly? You can see how many of them are above you right now https://satellitemap.space/ . If you hit one satellite (a narrow beam from a dish the width of a dish), the beam will go to another. There are about 5949 of them so far. Musk wanted 42000 and is working in this direction. Hitting them will make you sweat. Shooting them down is unrealistic. The ultimate weapon.

              P.s. Russia has only 160 satellites. All of them and different. I think there are less than a couple dozen connections there. So it is possible to shoot them down. Why? Because the nineties and other pilots hit the ground instead of doing their job
              1. -3
                5 January 2025 10: 18
                Quote: Last centurion
                Which satellite exactly? Right now you can see how many of them are above you https://satellitemap.space/ . if you hit one satellite (a narrow beam from a dish the width of a dish), the beam will go to another. There are about 5949 of them so far.

                What, all 5949 hanging over the plate? Fear the Mask. laughing
                As far as I remember, a specific dish in a specific area has only a couple of them shining, and the area is several hundred km*2 and in the area there are hundreds of dishes being serviced, and another couple is flying up, a couple is leaving. And this working pair can be easily suppressed by directional interference. Since the terminal shines a couple of tens of watts in the direction of the satellite, no more.
        3. +2
          5 January 2025 10: 10
          Take it apart and you'll see one chip. Well, then you know what to do - cut it layer by layer like 8080 and take pictures of millions of transistors
          1. -6
            5 January 2025 15: 25
            Take it apart, figure out the frequencies of operation, then turn it on and start jamming with a high-frequency signal. If the signal from the satellite starts to get lost, then you are on the right track.
            1. +5
              5 January 2025 15: 58
              Load the jammer onto the airship, rise up and look for the main petal that forms the PAR.

              Political officers should not interfere with equipment
              1. -5
                5 January 2025 16: 29
                Place jammers along the shore so that enemy satellites can't see the boat. Political officers don't interfere, we have two types of equipment - either Soviet modified serial or riveted in garages, exceptions can be counted on the fingers of one hand
    2. BAI
      0
      5 January 2025 11: 04
      Why doesn't Starlink choke on EW?

      Already choking. This year the funds appeared and were tested at the front
    3. +7
      5 January 2025 13: 47
      One thing is clear: technology is developing at a rapid pace these days. Every month there is something new. The Anglo-Saxons and Ukrainians succeed in this field. Ours - no. Why don't we succeed? The answer is simple: our army top brass has become sluggish, has grown old, they don't need anything except a bathhouse, vodka and a position. Talented, smart, young and active people are not allowed to the top. Or they are artificially slowed down and removed. They are afraid of competition, afraid of losing power and money. So what do we want in the end? There will be nothing, everything will get stuck in endless approvals, meetings and deliberations. By the time we come up with effective countermeasures, the enemy will have prepared new surprises.
      1. 0
        5 January 2025 14: 30
        What does the "army top brass" have to do with it? Firstly, scientific discoveries and advanced developments are not made in the army or at the top; and secondly, what prevents young scientists from making discoveries and developments that are necessary for the army? I am convinced that these are not the aging army top brass. And none of the "management" will slow down the really important discoveries of young employees, since traditionally this is also the merit of the leaders of the organization in which the discovery was made. I think that the reason is a significant lag behind the Soviet physics and mathematics education (both secondary and higher).
        1. +3
          5 January 2025 15: 11
          Do you think there are no proposals "from below"? There are plenty of them! Where are the same Orions/Inohodtsy? They are being slowed down! Artificially. Either there is no engine, or this, or that... The issue is not only with the military brass - everything is extremely slow and sluggish here. The system has been built this way for decades. Gogol and the official - the eternal "Inspector General". But time has changed - it has sped up a lot. This slowness can be fatal for the state today. Let's remember the endless postponements of civil aircraft manufacturing. Where is the replacement for the An-2? Where is the MS-21? Where are at least the promised old/new Tu-214s!? I look - and I am quietly stunned. In fact, there is outright treason going on at all levels. Even what was successfully produced yesterday - today we no longer produce under various formulations.
          1. +2
            5 January 2025 17: 04
            That's what I'm talking about. People here don't really understand how the military-industrial complex and industry are developing and who decides whether to move forward or not. And the decisions are made by old, not very bright individuals who not only don't understand modern technology, they don't even know how to use a smartphone. And these individuals decide whether we need a "good engine" or not. To develop drones or to hell with it, so that nothing happens. And if they get a kick from above, they will immediately try to "smear" the decision of the issue, calling a bunch of meetings, discussions, approvals and so on. In order to protect their position and distribute responsibility for failure horizontally and not lose their chair. And there will be failures, especially if the leader doesn't have a clue.
        2. +3
          5 January 2025 16: 34
          Quote: Andrey Gladkikh
          What prevents young scientists from making discoveries and developments that are necessary for the army?

          and what kind of money will be used to make these developments? The scientific lower classes are obviously not philosophers who only need pencils and paper. Our money evaporates without a trace on its way from the budget to the lower classes. Not long ago, in an interview, a person related to aviation said that he asked aircraft engine specialists why they were developing a hybrid system for aircraft that were not even in the design stage, when we have all sorts of MS-21s without engines? Is it possible to simply make a good engine, without hydrogen fuel and the like? They said that no one would give money for a simply good engine, and there is no need to even make an analog in metal, no one will remember why it was needed in a month.
    4. 0
      5 January 2025 22: 41
      Quote: General Failure
      An immodest question: why doesn’t Starlink choke on electronic warfare?
      If you just shit in the sky on the same frequencies as the Starlink terminal, then data will not be able to leave the terminal and the TCP connection will go down the drain.
      And for this you don't need some kind of extreme power - about 10 times more powerful than what the terminal gives out. It's pretty weak.

      There is a video in Russian on YouTube about the design of the Starlink antenna and its operating principles. I highly recommend everyone to watch it. I can say that our manufacturers found it not just interesting, but educationally interesting!
      Educational!!!
  2. +10
    5 January 2025 04: 26
    Please correct the text. Ukrainians The ATGM is called "Stugna-P" and not "Sguna-P"
    1. +2
      5 January 2025 09: 40
      Quote: Daemon
      The Ukrainians call the ATGM "Stugna-P" and not "Sguna-P"

      Ah, it doesn't matter. Because these systems only pose a threat to helicopters if the helicopter is hovering.
      necessarily integrates the Sguna-P anti-tank missile systems (ATGM) into the armament of the BEK, and the helicopters’ on-board self-defense systems do not help against anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM).

      But against small ships this is already a threat.
    2. BAI
      0
      5 January 2025 11: 06
      This also caught my eye. The author does not know the terminology.
  3. +21
    5 January 2025 05: 07
    Everyone was expecting, if not a landing on the coast of Odessa, then a complete blockade of Ukraine from the sea.

    This has been discussed many times at VO...they didn't do this and waited for the Black Sea Fleet blockade in their ports.
    And there were too many of these stupid...unforgivable mistakes made at the beginning of the SVO. That is why we now have a protracted conflict with unclear results.
    Well, BECs have not yet revealed their full potential.
    Our Black Sea Fleet will continue to have problems with them...imagine a situation where BEKs will start to be used as a swarm...where each BEK will perform a specific role in attacking our ships and aircraft.
    One will monitor the surrounding environment using radar, the second will suppress communications using electronic warfare, the third will provide target designation, the fourth will strike with missiles, the fifth will launch kamikaze drones, and so on...what a nightmare it will be. request
    1. -11
      5 January 2025 05: 40
      Imagine then the situation when this entire expensive swarm of BEKs with electronic warfare, radar, missiles and other equipment will be destroyed by the same swarm of cheap BEKs - hunters with an acoustic homing head, like those used on torpedoes for 50 years.
      Will you repeat the experiment?
      1. +8
        5 January 2025 05: 52
        Quote: malyvalv
        Will you repeat the experiment?

        We will.
        This experiment and confrontation between sword and shield will be repeated vertically endlessly...from the club to satellite weapons...humanity does not want peace.
    2. GGV
      +18
      5 January 2025 06: 40
      Was there anyone to land? The SVO started with such a small number of personnel that it is not clear what they were hoping for. And so they struck with spread fingers, and three days later the hohols' army was already almost twice as big.
      1. +12
        5 January 2025 09: 46
        Quote: GGV
        and after three days the Ukrainian army was already almost twice as large.

        Still, after half a year they mobilized a sufficient number of troops for an offensive. The question is different. And what did our leaders do during these six months? Did they watch how mass mobilization and training were systematically going on in Ukraine?
        1. Eug
          +10
          5 January 2025 10: 21
          The leaders, it must be understood, hoped that they would not be deceived again.
        2. BAI
          +1
          5 January 2025 11: 08
          Have you seen how mass mobilization and training is systematically underway in Ukraine?

          Exactly. And they hoped that the strong Ukrainian Armed Forces would serve as an excuse for their mistakes.
    3. -3
      5 January 2025 07: 28
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Well, BECs haven't yet revealed their full potential

      They will be opened and closed as well. Minefields have not been cancelled yet. They will be made more compact and manageable for small vessels.
    4. +2
      5 January 2025 10: 47
      If everyone sees how it should be, but the opposite is done, and it also predictably leads to defeat in the area in question, then this is not a chain of mistakes, but competent sabotage in the interests of the enemy.
      1. +2
        5 January 2025 11: 00
        All that remains is to decide who the enemy is.
        1. 0
          5 January 2025 12: 55
          The enemy is too tough for us.
          Short but true.
    5. 0
      5 January 2025 13: 59
      A cluster bomb with self-targeting warheads (SPBE) can be used against a swarm of sea drones.
  4. +17
    5 January 2025 05: 15
    Passive defense - waiting at home for when and from which side the enemy will sail - cannot lead to victory. Especially if tactics are developed only in response to the enemy's actions and with a great delay. Unfortunately, those who should come up with and implement measures do not sit in helicopters and on ships, at most they will be removed from their positions without being deprived of awards. Therefore, our unmanned boats and other Orions in single copies appear in the news once a year, whether we have any hydrophones along the Ukrainian coast can only guess
  5. +18
    5 January 2025 05: 16
    Is the Black Sea Fleet command afflicted with the same disease as their predecessors during the Great Patriotic War? Are they unable or unwilling to think for the enemy?
    1. +2
      5 January 2025 11: 53
      Quote: Grencer81
      Is the Black Sea Fleet command afflicted with the same disease as their predecessors during the Great Patriotic War? Are they unable or unwilling to think for the enemy?

      Maybe the place is cursed? what
  6. +4
    5 January 2025 05: 27
    In order to use helicopters, we seem to have learned to determine the location of BEKs in advance. Otherwise, it would be hard to catch them in the sea. They probably hung acoustic buoys along the coast. That's already very good.
    The best option will of course be when BEKs - hunters appear on our side. With an acoustic guidance system like on torpedoes. I hope such are already being developed and tested, since such a solution is obvious.
    1. +1
      5 January 2025 13: 54
      There is a task of detecting drones and a task of destroying drones.
      The task of destroying drones also needs to be divided, depending on the distance.
      It seems they forgot about the Bereg complex, which is capable of operating near the coastline at medium distances.
      The Bereg complex is hopelessly outdated and does not meet the tasks of fighting enemy ships or unmanned boats. The 203-mm howitzers that were sent to help at one time also did not solve the problem.
      It is necessary to equip individual artillery installations with their own guidance systems and means of interaction with drones capable of adjusting fire.
      A separate task is equipping 130-mm guided and cluster munitions.
      And if modernization is impossible, then it is necessary to reorient to land-based 152-mm systems like "Koalitsiya" or at least "Malva", in the ammunition set of which there are already both guided and cluster munitions. Although, judging by the video from the front, cluster munitions of 152-mm caliber exist only in theory.
      And in the immediate vicinity of the coast, one should focus on land systems similar to the BMP-2 with the Berezhok combat module.
      1. 0
        6 January 2025 01: 45
        The next generation of such BECs will be fully submersible. Only the camera, satellite antenna and snorkel will stick out above the water. Visually detecting them from a UAV or helicopter will be almost impossible. Including with a thermal imager.
        The only protection against this can be the same as against conventional torpedoes. Mini anti-torpedoes and boats with RBU.
  7. +10
    5 January 2025 06: 01
    Yes, we've played enough with our brothers. We've had enough at parades. Now it's who will win. And we can't leave the Black Sea to our "brothers".
    1. +2
      5 January 2025 08: 20
      It is obvious that we need to take Odessa and Nikolaev (not to mention the "second half of Kherson")
      1. 0
        5 January 2025 18: 10
        It’s obvious that we need to take Odessa and Nikolaev?

        State the acceptable losses that we are prepared to bear. You speak so casually, we will take this, we will take that later. It's funny.
  8. +3
    5 January 2025 06: 09
    I think the primary task is Starlink. Whether to jam or disable receivers or what other methods will be used is up to the specialists to decide. But the enemy must be deprived of this system, it cannot be that it is absolutely invulnerable.
    1. +5
      5 January 2025 07: 07
      There are no means yet against the Starlink system, which increases its capabilities monthly. Starlink satellites are regularly updated, their power and functionality are increased. If the first satellites weighed 250 kg, then the latest 1250 kg.
      1. +1
        5 January 2025 09: 20
        Quote: Puncher
        There are no means against the Starlink system yet

        And it won't be. It was necessary to create such a system. The Chinese will certainly do it in the near future.
        1. -1
          6 January 2025 07: 30
          Quote: Stas157
          It was necessary to make a similar system

          We don't have such resources. Even together with ESA it didn't work out.
          Quote: Stas157
          The Chinese will certainly do this in the near future.
          It is doubtful that this will work, for this a heavy and cheap launch vehicle is needed, and China does not have one.
      2. KCA
        0
        9 January 2025 15: 08
        Satellites do not work by themselves, they need precise positioning, and it is carried out through ground stations, one is definitely in Poland, several sabotage, and over the entire outskirts there is a linkless sky
  9. +8
    5 January 2025 06: 19
    Maybe it’s worth sending some of them (UAVs) to hunt for UAV-kamikazes over the Black Sea, rather than risking expensive combat helicopters with crews?

    Why did they make expensive combat helicopters then? To be shown on the Zvezda TV channel? Consumer qualities determine the real cost, and these helicopters are worthless if they can only be protected. And these Orions are not suitable for this, if they were good, they would have been furrowing and causing nightmares long ago...
    1. -3
      5 January 2025 06: 37
      Plus to the author for raising this topic. I learned about the possible helicopter shootdown from the TG channels of the country. And there is never too much truth there. There is a problem and our Ministry of Defense needs to solve it.
    2. 0
      5 January 2025 07: 17
      These are weapons from past wars.
    3. +3
      5 January 2025 14: 04
      Helicopters should be used with guided missiles from a long distance, unreachable for ATGMs or even MANPADS. Helicopters should be armed with something like "product 305".
      And working with machine guns in the spirit of the Vietnam and Afghan wars has become unsafe.
  10. +2
    5 January 2025 06: 26
    It turns out that we need to revive the production of the Chaika I-153 with 4 ShKAS. Cheap and cheerful, instead of one useless Ka-52 you can make 50 of them. It dives and maneuvers, it can even launch unguided rockets accurately
    1. +4
      5 January 2025 07: 16
      Only in unmanned version.
      1. +2
        5 January 2025 09: 31
        Only in unmanned version.

        This will be expensive. A piston aircraft is practically not locked onto by a MANPADS, and the speed of 300 will not allow the machine gun on the BEK to lock onto the target.
        1. 0
          5 January 2025 15: 31
          Back is also not the cheapest weapon, enemies simply do not count money for war. And here initiative fucks the initiator, what if the executor steals everything, like his boss? Was there an order to think? No! Therefore it is better not to stick your neck out, there are Soviet Mi-8 on staff, issue machine guns from the warehouse and let them fight.
    2. +7
      5 January 2025 07: 34
      I've been saying this for a long time, take any propeller-driven aerobatic plane, a couple of machine guns and you're a hunter.
      1. 0
        5 January 2025 09: 15
        Quote: novel xnumx
        any propeller-driven aerobatic pilot

        In December, there was news about the arrival of the first two UTS-800 training aircraft into the army.
        1. +3
          5 January 2025 09: 37
          I remember a joke about the Chinese army in the 70s:
          - We'll send small infantry units of a million people on the right and left. Tanks will go in the center!
          - What, both at once?
          1. +2
            5 January 2025 11: 28
            Quote from Kuziming
            I remember a joke about the Chinese army in the 70s:
            - We'll send small infantry units of a million people on the right and left. Tanks will go in the center!
            - What, both at once?

            -And aviation?
            -There will be no aviation, the pilot is sick.
        2. +5
          5 January 2025 09: 58
          Quote: Stas157
          Quote: novel xnumx
          any propeller-driven aerobatic pilot

          In December, there was news about the arrival of the first two UTS-800 training aircraft into the army.

          Only they didn't write there that the engines on them are imported and there are only a couple of them. The Russian engine hasn't been finished yet. Probably they wanted to report to the higher-ups at the end of the year.
        3. 0
          5 January 2025 11: 07
          Quote: Stas157
          Quote: novel xnumx
          any propeller-driven aerobatic pilot

          In December, there was news about the arrival of the first two UTS-800 training aircraft into the army.

          Yeah, with a Chinese airframe and a GE engine.
        4. +4
          5 January 2025 12: 01
          Wow! Tucano is awesome!!! Where can it be better?
    3. -2
      5 January 2025 11: 10
      Quote: Konnick
      It turns out that we need to revive the production of the Chaika I-153 with 4 ShKAS. Cheap and cheerful, instead of one useless Ka-52 you can make 50 of them. It dives and maneuvers, it can even launch unguided rockets accurately

      It's very funny, all of Polikarpov's fighters were unstable in flight, not to mention the fact that the ASh-62 has no PD, and there are no PDs at all.
  11. +4
    5 January 2025 06: 40
    a battle between a Russian Ka-29 helicopter and a Ukrainian kamikaze BEK, which attempted to launch a surface-to-air missile (a modified air-to-air missile), but missed and was destroyed machine gun fire
    recourse Yeahhhhhh. "He hit me with a hammer, and I hit him with a slipper, slipper." feel
  12. 0
    5 January 2025 06: 46
    It is necessary to detect BEKs already in the territorial waters of Ukraine. Therefore, patrolling submarines is necessary for this, otherwise why are they kept at bases, for what purpose? Where are they warming their sides, in Novorossiysk?
    1. +3
      5 January 2025 07: 36
      Is there anything to detect it with? Well, yes, submarines don't risk anything
      1. -2
        5 January 2025 07: 52
        Is there anything to measure it with?

        What do you mean? Nothing has been invented except for a noise finder. Although in the case of BEKs, a noise finder will do. The main thing is to find the BEK's exit from the base. In principle, this way, the bases can be found.
        1. -1
          5 January 2025 11: 59
          So, in principle, it is possible to find bases.

          And this is the most important thing!!
        2. 0
          7 January 2025 10: 27
          Nothing has been invented except for the noise direction finder. Although in the case of BEKs, a noise direction finder will do. The main thing is to find the BEK's exit from the base. In principle, this way, the bases can be found.

          This is not the case if you do not launch the BEKs from the decks of the "merchants", do not tow them with barges...
          1. 0
            7 January 2025 11: 02
            This is not the case if you do not launch the BEKs from the decks of the "merchants" and do not tow them with barges

            Nobody launches them, much less tows them with barges. The Black Sea Fleet command came up with this as an excuse
            1. 0
              7 January 2025 11: 13
              Nobody launches them, and even more so, nobody tows them with barges. The Black Sea Fleet command came up with this as an excuse for itself.

              And you exposed them!
              How do they lower them? Like in the movies: the gates in the rock open and they continue on their own to the destination. Or do they roll them from trailers right into the water at the base?
              They have a limited range, so the direct path is to drag them to the area of ​​action, allowing you to save your own resources on "afterburner tricks."
      2. -3
        5 January 2025 10: 55
        Well, how can I say it!
        The same swarm of BEKs controlled via Global Hawk can consist of both GAS and outback. And the loss of a submarine with a crew will be more fraught with the loss of a helicopter.
        1. -1
          5 January 2025 12: 03
          So, should I sit under the bunk??
          1. -3
            5 January 2025 13: 00
            Good question, and the answer is simple: if you can't hit him in the temple, hit him in the groin, and the temple will open. So we need to organize a landing in Reni with passage through Moldova and the PMR and further. As they sing: he was heading for Odessa, but came out at Kherson.
            1. +1
              5 January 2025 13: 03
              Well, yes, the first navigator of the Soviet Union
              1. -2
                5 January 2025 13: 13
                With the appropriate cover and processing of coastal threats - it should work. It is important not to be shy about the disproportionate use of force. Otherwise - having the initiative, they will organize a blockade of Crimea.
                1. +1
                  5 January 2025 15: 21
                  There are few people, just manpower
                  1. -1
                    5 January 2025 15: 23
                    Mobilization is needed, and total mobilization at that. The strategy of attrition and a thousand cuts, adopted by the West, works. And if the enemy's plan is not thwarted, then the result planned by him will be achieved.
      3. 0
        6 January 2025 19: 52
        The British have given Ukraine three anti-submarine helicopters. The loss of a submarine would be too much of a gift for a country without a navy; a cruiser would be enough.
  13. +6
    5 January 2025 06: 53
    Starlink gave them a huge advantage, which they fortunately did not realize 100%, because the Pentagon itself has not yet realized what gold they got their hands on and is still using the Link-16 communication system, which is worse than Starlink, like a Startak phone compared to a modern 5G smartphone.
  14. 0
    5 January 2025 07: 15
    I will repeat on duty the need to use a large number of floating air defense and anti-drone defense batteries, drone carriers to protect our infrastructure and suppress the enemy’s coastal defenses.
    1. 0
      7 January 2025 10: 35
      I will repeat on duty the necessity of using it a large number floating air defense and anti-drone defense batteries, drone carriers

      Oh! "Tie it down with wire." Drive everything that can be anchored out to sea, gut the warehouses with searchlights and small rapid-fire guns. Recruit and train crews.
  15. +5
    5 January 2025 07: 16
    I'll express my opinion. I think they won't be very popular. But still.
    Usually, generals order weapons. As they see it. Maybe we should give freedom to designers? There is a problem. It needs to be solved. And let the designers come up with it. And the generals are already using them on the battlefield, as they say. This concerns not only the problem with the BEKs on the Black Sea. But also other theaters of military operations. And then, as we know, the generals are preparing for the last war...
    1. +2
      5 January 2025 07: 38
      There is a grain of truth in your reasoning. The task is set correctly!
      1. +4
        5 January 2025 07: 41
        Well, you must admit: flying around in helicopters with PCs after BEKs is just crazy! The SVO has been going on for a long time, and they still haven't come up with a system, like the Americans' Javelin, for example. After all, the BEK has a good thermal signature on the surface of the water! One BEK, one missile. And no problem!
        1. 0
          5 January 2025 07: 43
          Expensive
          I am still a supporter of light aircraft, with machine gun and cannon armament.
          1. -1
            5 January 2025 10: 26
            Expensive
            I am still a supporter of light aircraft, with machine gun and cannon armament.


            And where will you get it? We don’t have engines for it.
            1. 0
              5 January 2025 12: 02
              Is it really that hard for our engine designers to come up with a turboprop engine capable of 2000 hp?
              1. -1
                5 January 2025 12: 15
                Is it really that hard for our engine designers to come up with a turboprop engine capable of 2000 hp?


                Oh, you made me laugh. In 1978, the TVD-20, 1500 hp, was created in Omsk, it was produced in small series and installed on the An-3. And where is this engine today?
                What can I say, in the Russian Federation they cannot currently produce a sufficient number of TV3-117, renamed VK-2500.
                1. -1
                  5 January 2025 12: 16
                  Where is the Soviet legacy??? Where are our galoshes???
                  1. +2
                    5 January 2025 12: 23
                    Where is the Soviet legacy??? Where are our galoshes???


                    What can I say... it can't be explained in simple words.
                    Look, how unique aircraft are “stored” in the Russian Federation.

                    1. 0
                      5 January 2025 12: 24
                      It would have been better not to show it.... Shame on the jungle
                      1. +1
                        5 January 2025 12: 31
                        It would have been better not to show it.... Shame on the jungle


                        In the early 24s, I still lived in Tula. So, the newly-minted owners of the airport there managed to scrap the flying An-14s, which were only XNUMX years old. Of course, everyone worshiped Boeings back then.
                        And now they sell toilets in the airport building. Quite symbolic.
        2. 0
          5 January 2025 12: 02
          Quote: Panadol
          The SVO has been going on for a long time, but they still haven’t come up with a system, like the Americans’ Javelin, for example.

          Even the trophy ones alone would have been enough.
    2. 0
      5 January 2025 10: 25
      I'll express my opinion. I think they won't be very popular. But still.
      Usually, generals order weapons. As they see it. Maybe we should give freedom to designers? There is a problem. It needs to be solved. And let the designers come up with it. And the generals are already using them on the battlefield, as they say. This concerns not only the problem with the BEKs on the Black Sea. But also other theaters of military operations. And then, as we know, the generals are preparing for the last war...


      Designers must work on the basis of a well-written technical specification, travel from unit to unit, listen to the wishes of those who fight with that very equipment. As it was in the USSR.
      Now, both designers and generals are concerned with one thing: how to profitably divide up the military budget.
    3. BAI
      -1
      5 January 2025 11: 14
      As they see it. Maybe we should give freedom to designers? There is a problem. It needs to be solved. And let them invent a designer.

      This also cannot be done. They will come up with something like haute couture designers - expensive, you can look at it, but you can't wear it.
      The soldiers should put forward the requirements - what exactly is needed. Although now the requirements for the models of military equipment are put forward by the specific Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
  16. +8
    5 January 2025 07: 41
    After the Serdyukov defeat and Shoigin's biathlonism, commanders and commanding officers capable of showing initiative and taking responsibility have virtually disappeared from the Russian Armed Forces. The situation is being corrected, but, like everything that is done in modern Russia, slowly and ineffectively. Therefore, one should not expect a prompt response from the command of the Russian Armed Forces and the Navy, including in this case.
    1. -2
      5 January 2025 14: 07
      We have plenty of commanders, you could say a ton, but we don’t have enough combat helicopters with guided missiles, nor drones.
  17. +1
    5 January 2025 07: 44
    UAVs vs. BECs: is there no imagination to destroy the places where they are launched from?
  18. +3
    5 January 2025 07: 52
    It would be necessary to understand the reason for the helicopter being hit by a missile, and was there a MI-8 "Vitebsk" on board, was it in working order? Maybe it all comes down to carelessness? Why do they use MI-8 to intercept BEKs? The competent authorities should understand the reasons for the death of helicopters. Helicopters are needed to combat BEKs, but they need to use attack vehicles equipped with air defense systems and capable of hitting BEKs at long distances, and these are the VIKHR and ATAKA ATGMs.
    1. +1
      5 January 2025 09: 37
      To combat BEK helicopters are needed, but it is necessary to use attack vehicles equipped with BKO and having the ability to hit BEKs at long distances, and these are the VIKHR and ATAKA ATGMs.

      You think you haven't tried it? Attack helicopters are too difficult to maneuver, the BEK changes its trajectory very quickly. The Mi-8 turned out to be better, even with the PC
      1. +1
        5 January 2025 10: 21
        A BEK won't run away from a supersonic ATGM, but apparently there is another reason why ATGMs with LLKUs are not used against BEKs.
        Although saving on matches also cannot be ruled out.
  19. -3
    5 January 2025 08: 28
    The best weapon against BEK is not helicopters, Orions, etc., but our infantry on the Odessa beach.
    They can also launch from Romania, but that, as they say, is a completely different story.
    1. 0
      7 January 2025 10: 45
      Our infantry on the Odessa beach.

      Which will float out there in the form of carcasses, having come under fire from the "Rapiers" from the catacombs. I had a map of the Odessa catacombs (local speleologists gave it to me), when the Arabs did not have tunnels yet.
      My opinion is that without control in the catacombs, there is no point in talking about control over Odessa.
  20. +3
    5 January 2025 09: 05
    The bottom line is that the article says:
    - the author warned everyone about everything;
    - there is a lot of data, but it is not exact;
    - the author warned everyone about everything again.
    If he guesses right, he will remind everyone for a hundred years. If he doesn't guess right, who will remember him anyway?
  21. -1
    5 January 2025 09: 05
    Maybe it's worth sending some of them to hunt for BEK kamikazes over the Black Sea.

    A full-scale blockade of Ukraine on the Black Sea needs to be arranged. Potential landings of troops, at least for sabotage, need to be ensured... Our fleet must have at least some initiative and offensive strategy in war. Otherwise, what is it for?
    1. 0
      7 January 2025 10: 49
      A full-fledged blockade of Ukraine on the Black Sea needs to be established.

      Since the times of the USSR, there has been a task of preventing a blockade of our coast by capitalist countries.
      Well, yes. Now Russia is a capitalist country and you propose to test in practice what the USSR has prepared there....
  22. -5
    5 January 2025 09: 05
    I wonder if 8-10 BEKs is a swarm or not? To date, is there any success from using BEKs? Is there any confirmation of successful use of air defense from BEKs, except for very dubious information from the enemy? And, has anyone tried to hit a flying target remotely, during rough seas and active maneuvering of the BEK? And, the last attempt to use FPV drones from the BEK, what was its result?
    1. +2
      5 January 2025 09: 45
      The BEKs broke into the Sevastopol harbor several times.
      And several times they sank ships outside of it.
      Because of them, the Black Sea Fleet was transferred to Novorossiysk.
      1. +2
        5 January 2025 09: 59
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Because of them, the Black Sea Fleet was transferred to Novorossiysk.

        No. Because of the missile strikes.
  23. +8
    5 January 2025 09: 05
    There is no war in Moscow, no one is responsible for the mistakes. The result, as they say, is obvious.
  24. +1
    5 January 2025 10: 11
    Delaying the SVO operation leads to unforeseen results.
    There will be more, there will be more, There will be more oh-oh-oh!
  25. +9
    5 January 2025 10: 16
    Empty talk.
    "If Elon Musk had been born in Russia, he would have already served his second term"
  26. -1
    5 January 2025 10: 27
    Use helicopters and use machine guns at the same time? Hand face...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      5 January 2025 14: 11
      What's so unusual about that? Didn't they do the same thing in Kabul at the very beginning of the Afghan war? And with the advent of the Stingers, the situation got much worse. Military history took a spiral turn.
      Well, or we stepped on the same rake again, you could say.
      1. -3
        5 January 2025 14: 29
        What's so unusual about that? Didn't they do the same thing in Kabul at the very beginning of the Afghan war? And with the advent of the Stingers, the situation got much worse. Military history took a spiral turn.
        Well, or we stepped on the same rake again, you could say.


        There were MANPADS in Afghanistan before the Stingers. And with their appearance, some flights were moved to night, more flights began to fly during WWI and more flights in general. That's all.
  27. -6
    5 January 2025 10: 52
    Well, how else could it be - the author is smart, and there are idiots around. But spitting is not like lifting sacks. Now if he had suggested something worthwhile, or even better - done it. But here is the problem: criticism has developed, but creativity is in its infancy.
    1. -1
      5 January 2025 12: 59
      Quote: Papa Igor
      Well, how else could it be - the author is smart, and there are idiots around. But talking shit is not like lifting sacks.

      Are you satisfied with everything or do you think it is impossible to change the situation for the better?

      Quote: Papa Igor
      If only he would suggest something worthwhile, or even better, do it.

      Will the proposals be immediately taken into account and will the responsible persons salute them?

      There's poor Strelkov, he suggested a lot! And he could have done it himself, if he'd been allowed into leadership... But where is he now?
  28. -2
    5 January 2025 11: 01
    Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
    But the Black Sea cannot be left to the “brothers”.

    Of course we should leave it to the Turks.
  29. BAI
    0
    5 January 2025 11: 02
    Anti-tank missile systems (ATGM) "Sguna-P"

    Not Sugna, but STugna
  30. 0
    5 January 2025 11: 02
    Quote: Stas157
    A full-fledged blockade of Ukraine on the Black Sea needs to be established.

    Who will let you arrange it?
  31. -1
    5 January 2025 11: 05
    Quote: Mitrich73
    capable of hitting BEKs at long distances, namely the VIKHR and ATAKA ATGMs.

    And how can they be detected at long distances?
  32. 0
    5 January 2025 11: 12
    The helicopter is not as bad as the author writes. Only it is necessary to move away from defeating BEKs with machine gun fire, to using ATGMs.
  33. 0
    5 January 2025 11: 32
    Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
    The Black Sea cannot be left to the "brothers".

    If there are no Bandera Black Sea ports, there will be no BEKs with Stingers and Javelins on board.
  34. +1
    5 January 2025 12: 06
    There is no absolute weapon - the struggle between defense and attack is endless. They will find a way to deal with BEKs too.
  35. 0
    5 January 2025 13: 13
    Well, basically, everything is heading towards what some people were talking about even before the SVO. Towards the development of the concept of a mosquito fleet for closed waters using a BEC.
  36. -3
    5 January 2025 13: 35
    Quote: avia12005
    After the Serdyukov defeat... the commanders and commanding officers in the Russian Armed Forces have effectively disappeared

    Let's say it wouldn't be worth lying, especially so brazenly.
    Under Serdyukov, all rearmament programs were financed on time and 100%. Didn't he decide what to buy? His task was to control financial expenditures under financial constraints.
    1. +1
      5 January 2025 18: 52
      Quote: Dozorny_ severa
      Under Serdyukov, all rearmament programs were financed on time and 100%

      Yes, especially regarding the destruction of military education.
      Quote: Dozorny_ severa
      Wasn't he the one who decided what to buy?

      It was he who was trying to take over, setting up the purchase of weapons abroad.
      1. 0
        5 January 2025 19: 46
        What kind of education? The army was reduced to less than 1 million people. Why so many schools if so many officers are not needed?
        Large purchases in France and Italy were the initiative of the political leadership of the Russian Federation, which was then deceived. There is no need to fantasize. In a word.
        1. -2
          5 January 2025 20: 57
          Quote: Dozorny_ severa
          What kind of education?

          Well, then take an interest in the question. When leading educational institutions in the capitals were destroyed in order to free up land and sell it for diamonds to mistresses. Have you heard of the "Zhugarin Academy"?
          Quote: Dozorny_ severa
          Large purchases in France and Italy were an initiative of the political leadership of the Russian Federation

          No. The Mistrals were politics, and the Italians were Serdyukovism. But the financing of defense programs was not Serdyukov's merit, but the leadership of the Russian Federation, which finally found money for the country's armed forces.
    2. -2
      5 January 2025 21: 05
      That's exactly why dozens of military schools and academies were liquidated, recruitment to flight schools was stopped, the sailors' seafaring experience became equal to that of ice-fishing enthusiasts, and before the amnesty, the hero Serdyukov was found to have such mansions and means that even Vasilyeva asked only one question - what is this?
  37. DO
    -1
    5 January 2025 14: 22
    It was proposed to use Orion unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) as the main means of countering enemy BEK kamikazes, with their subsequent addition/replacement with a combination of Sirius UAVs and Helios-RLD UAVs.

    Orions, Siriuses, and Helius-RLDs are practically the only alternative as reconnaissance vehicles, a “net” of which must hang in shifts and around the clock over distant and near sea zones.
    But as strike weapons, they are too weak. What can a slow-moving, clumsy, poorly armed, low-carrying vessel do, and also controlled via a radio channel that can be jammed, against a dozen high-speed BEKs, today equipped with anti-aircraft missiles and electronic warfare? But the combat mission is to destroy the ENTIRE "wolf pack".
    Therefore, manned helicopters and airplanes were and remain reliable means of destruction.
    Of course, it is most convenient to work on BEKs with a machine gun or cannon from a helicopter. However, the appearance of anti-aircraft missiles on BEKs brought unacceptable risks to helicopters. And a fighter, although much less convenient for working on BEKs, can evade missiles due to its speed and maneuverability. And there is no particular need for fighters to constantly hang over the water area. A fighter, due to its speed, can manage to take off from the airfield and intercept BEKs in the far zone. Sukhoi jets are not required as BEK interceptor fighters; well-preserved MiG-29s can be used. And ideally - MiG-35s.
    And it would still be advisable for helicopters to patrol the near zone to intercept those BECs that broke through from the far zone. Because we have already seen the disastrous results of attempts to fight off a "wolf pack" with gunfire from the guarded ships themselves. Although, of course, in case of a breakthrough of one or two BECs, there should be adequate gunfire on board the guarded ship itself, and gunners on duty around the clock too.
  38. -1
    5 January 2025 16: 34
    Comrades, I read the comments. And I realized that we are still in the defense paradigm. I think this is bad. We need to think, first of all, about attack. About initiative. Otherwise, we will defend ourselves to the point that the Black Sea will become a NATO sea. Initiative is needed.
    1. DO
      0
      6 January 2025 17: 21
      I am also for everything good and against everything bad.
      But what happens if, under the current conditions, the Russian Black Sea fleet decides to take the initiative and attack? Attack what and who? The Ukrainian Armed Forces do not have a Navy in the classical sense of the word. So, a landing operation - for example, in Odessa. And how will this end in the completely fire-pierced Black Sea? With a high probability, the loss of a large number of Russian ships.
      Ultimately, the Russian world will take Odessa. But rather by land than by sea. And the Russian ships of the Black Sea fleet must be preserved until the possibility of their effective use appears in the future.
  39. 0
    5 January 2025 16: 50
    All this running around the World Cup for back-ups is all about causing us irreparable damage, we risk helicopters with crews, and they are just vessels that are worthless compared to a helicopter with a crew. It's a one-way game, there is a goalkeeper (us) and there is the enemy team, but he has no goal. Purely theoretically, he can "score" on us, but we cannot. The answer is very simple, but the lampasniks will never come to it themselves - just turn the board over, strike the enemy's shoreline with back-ups themselves. Their only advantage is starlink, and this can be overcome, there are options.
  40. 0
    5 January 2025 16: 56
    I read the "responses" to Andrey Mitrofanov's article... A strange feeling: Mitrofanov about "Pyotr", and the experts from "VO" - about "Erema".... This happens if you "can't see the forest for the trees".... In my opinion, the problem is that an effective way to combat BEKs of various "colors" exists and was "voiced" quite competently by Andrey Mitrofanov - "Orion UAV". However, for some reason someone does not want to implement this solution "in bronze and marble" over the Black Sea... But the answer to this question is in another department... There is a cautious hope that professional brains and hands will get to this problem, along with the Law....
    1. 0
      5 January 2025 18: 56
      Quote from nordscout
      In my opinion, the problem is that there is an effective way to combat BEKs of various "kinds" and it has been "voiced" quite competently by Andrey Mitrofanov - "Orion UAV".

      Mitrofanov once again wrote nonsense - Orion does not have enough payload capacity to carry long-range weapons that would allow it to effectively destroy BEKs equipped with self-defense systems or serious BEK detection systems.
      1. +1
        6 January 2025 19: 04
        Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I will risk to contradict you... There are long-range and light weapons and detection means "feasible" for the "Orion UAV"... The main thing is to want to implement.... Yes, and try to write not nonsense on this topic, I will be very grateful to you....
        1. 0
          6 January 2025 21: 49
          Quote from nordscout
          Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I will risk objecting to you.

          Why take risks? There is no risk - if a person conducts a discussion as befits cultured people, then on my part there will be respect and admiration, even if we do not agree on our views.
          Quote from nordscout
          There are long-range and light weapons and detection equipment "feasible" for the "Orion UAV"

          What? It has a maximum takeoff weight of one ton, and a payload of 60 kg. At the same time
          high resolution digital aerial photography system,
          compact multifunctional radar system,
          radio intelligence equipment,
          optical-electronic system.

          They are included in these 60 kg
    2. +2
      5 January 2025 19: 31
      It's all sad. The leaders don't read this site, they read references. Their horizons are low. The way to combat BEK and other small things is on the surface. Side-view radar plus long-range cluster munitions exploding over water. To close the area.
      https://topwar.ru/167279-vnezapnaja-peredislokacija-redkogo-vozdushnogo-radara-na-aviabazu-hmejmim-podspore-proverennoe-vremenem.html
      You can search for MRK-411 yourself. They have all been posted online a long time ago. And if you are really interested, there is the Tu-134CX. A radar from a height of 10 km will detect any small waterfowl in the sea at about 200 kilometers. There is a ton of response time. Then cover the square with cluster munitions. The question is if these are cluster munitions, but I think the problem is solvable. You have to tinker with semi-submerged and submerged ones (the periscope or antenna must be periodically extended), the operator may not have time to notice. To help AI, create a database for recognition. Helicopters are used because there are no normal means of detection. Visually or in the IR range, and the enemy is smart, there are acoustic sensors and the boat will detect the rattle before the helicopter sees it. Small UAVs like the Orion (and ours is big) will not cope with a side-view radar, there is no power plus a communication channel. Well, unless there is IR and a communication channel and processing on the ground. In the optical range, in principle, a trace on the water is visible. But this will be done for now, the SVO will end. The question is what can be done quickly now.
      1. DO
        0
        5 January 2025 22: 40
        The big Tu-134 is easy to shoot down. The crew is unlikely to have time/be able to parachute. And such a plane is expensive.
        Regarding the means of detecting thoughts, it seems correct.
  41. +1
    5 January 2025 19: 17
    You can ask the Koreans for a UAV with operators for monitoring, first find it and then think about how to destroy it.
  42. -1
    5 January 2025 19: 50
    Don't forget that this game can be played by two people. You can buy Starlink from us, any version, it works only in the SVO zone and over the Black Sea coast too.
  43. 0
    5 January 2025 21: 01
    The author mentioned the loss of a Mi-28. The same author, a day before his post, acknowledged the loss of three helicopters, with all crews killed. And called it the biggest losses in one day since the beginning of the SVO. But there is no official confirmation. And there won't be.
  44. 0
    5 January 2025 21: 12
    and the sea is rough and a hurricane is raging... Lately there has been no success from the five-legged BEKs. But the Turks say they have attached a man-portable air defense missile system to their Bayraktor in addition to satellite navigation
    1. 0
      6 January 2025 16: 11
      The goals are over. That's why there are no successes.
      1. 0
        6 January 2025 17: 27
        Yeah, the bridge is still standing, tankers and bulk carriers are still loading and sailing. Kalibrs and MRKs are still being launched in the open sea, and so yes, the targets have run out.
  45. -2
    5 January 2025 21: 42
    Now imagine that an underwater container with a small above-water part also attacks a NATO P73 Poseidon flying past with an R8 missile, or the same AWACS Hawk. In essence, the Ukrainians created an anti-aircraft mine, and it is unclear why such a weapon was not created earlier. The fact that they use the R73, and not a MANPADS is also explainable - the R73 has a very wide-angle homing head - the deviation of the missile axis from the direction to the target can be tens of degrees.
  46. +1
    6 January 2025 01: 09
    The "answer questions" strategy = defeat. Asking questions of the enemy is the path to VICTORY.
    1. 0
      6 January 2025 04: 45
      "The big Tu-134 is easy to shoot down. The crew is unlikely to have time/be able to parachute. And such a plane is expensive."
      Yes, it is easy to shoot down a large aircraft, only a side-view radar from a height of 10 km sees a target like the BEK at 200 km. For this theater of operations, with the dominance of our aviation, it will work. Naturally, you do not need to enter the enemy's air defense zone. This will not work for the Baltic.
  47. +2
    6 January 2025 13: 37
    The Black Sea Fleet shone only at parades and once under Ushakov. In other conflicts it hid and concealed itself, posing a weak threat to the enemy, as it does now. Maybe Ushakov should be found and appointed? Ships are fighting off BEKs with Kalashnikov assault rifles in the hands of sailors. But the SVO has been going on for more than a year, and the navy's leadership does not want to learn at all...
  48. 0
    6 January 2025 16: 09
    There is no need for illusions. The fleet is not a problem, but a misfortune for Russia since 1854, since the sinking of the flagships in Sevastopol. Therefore, there is no need to expect even minimal readiness from the fleet to perform even auxiliary tasks. Only a war on land and the capture of Odessa and Nikolayev will solve the problem of the backs.
  49. +1
    6 January 2025 22: 04
    Quote: UAZ 452
    . It would be simpler and more effective to disperse all these "scientific teams" and create everything anew. Only this should have been done the day before yesterday, yesterday it was already too late, and today it is impossible.

    Your requests have been heard and the most honest secretary of the Security Council, Shogu S.K., will be engaged in military developments.
  50. 0
    6 January 2025 23: 53
    A network of hydroacoustic buoys is probably terribly complicated and expensive than everything else? Oh yeah, we're not looking for easy ways, or rather, we're not thinking about the future.
  51. 0
    11 January 2025 16: 43
    The idea of ​​using drones against UAVs is, in my opinion, the right idea. But, in addition to this, it is possible to use the additional capabilities of the Mi-28, which can be armed with Hermes missiles, with a normal range of up to 20 km and a maximum of about 100 km. With such an air defense range, UAVs will not be scary for our combat helicopters for a long time. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гермес_(раскетный_комлекс). And so, drones can be in demand as long-range radar detection aircraft. Attempts to use the A-50 for this in the Black Sea region were not very successful.