Galindas - Balts on the Oka

70
Galindas - Balts on the Oka
Spherical Balts in a vacuum. However, the Galindians, apparently, looked something like this


Since the emergence of Ukrainian nationalism, contemptuous words have been regularly used towards Russians - "Moksha", "Finno-Ugric", etc. I do not understand what is wrong with the Finno-Ugric peoples, but it is worth saying: if you look for non-Slavic roots among the Great Russians, it is the Balts.



More precisely, the "Golyad" of Russian chronicles is the Galindian tribe. It is funny that the self-name of this people is derived from the Baltic words (I take Lithuanian, but both Prussian and Latvian are very similar) "gal" - "end", "edge" and "liaudis" - "people". In fact, they are "Ukrainians", that is, living at the edge. In this case, the edge of the habitat of the Baltic tribes. It is understandable - the Galindians were carried away from the Baltic just terribly far!


The habitat of the "golyad" on the map is the heart of Russia!

The fact is that the Galindians lived right on the territory of Moscow and neighboring regions and a little further south. However, not only that: having set out on their travels together with the Goths, the Galindians reached Spain, where, by the way, the root galind- is found among toponyms and surnames much more often than in the Baltics. For example, the Spanish bishop of the 9th century Prudentius of Troyes was named Galindo at baptism...

In fact, the Galindians appeared in the heart of Russia about three hundred years earlier than the Slavs: they came from the Baltic coast in the fourth century, and the first Slavic settlements date back to the 1058th-1147th centuries. The first mention in Russian chronicles dates back to XNUMX, when the Kiev prince Izyaslav Yaroslavich went on a campaign against them. It is known that Yuri Dolgoruky made a campaign against Novgorod in XNUMX, and ordered his ally, the Chernigov prince Svyatoslav Olgovich, to conquer the Smolensk region, and then "...and Svyatoslav went and took the people of Golyad, the upper Porotva..." Moscow is also mentioned for the first time in the same year. It was here on the Protva that the Moscow prince Mikhail Khorobrit died in battle with the "Lithuania" in 1248:

“And Mikhail Yaroslavich of Moscow was killed by Lithuania on the Porotva.”

“Lithuania” on the Protva is most likely those same Galindians (however, there is a version that these were real Lithuanians who came to raise a related “Golyad” against their Moscow competitors).


In Poland, they make money on “our” Galindians: an ethnographic village called “Refuge Galindia” has been opened on the Masurian Lakes, although the Polish Galindians look very primitive!

But these are quite recent developments! Because the Galindians were first mentioned by Ptolemy in his "Guide to Geography" back in 150 AD! According to Ptolemy, the Galindians lived in the territory of "European Sarmatia", which:

“It is limited in the north by the Sarmatian Ocean along the Venetian Gulf (the Baltic Sea – G. f. C.) and part of an unknown land... From the west, Sarmatia is limited by the Vistula River (the Vistula – G. f. C.), part of Germany, lying between its sources and the Sarmatian Mountains... The southern border is made up of the Iazyges Metanasts (settlers) from the southern limit of the Sarmatian Mountains to the beginning of the Carpathian Mountains...”

Ptolemy settles the Galindians on the shores of the "Venedian Gulf", but already in the 11th-12th centuries they are found in the upper reaches of the Protva, the right tributary of the Moscow River. How did they get there? V. N. Tatishchev directly indicates that they arrived there from Prussia (one of historical regions of this region were called Galindia), but refers to some of his own sources that have not reached us. Why did they go from the Baltic shores to the forests of Central Russia?


Arrival of Glando Kambila in Novgorod. Miniature from the "Chronicle and Illustrated Collection of the House of Romanov" of 1913

Doctor of Historical Sciences Vladimir Kulakov believes that the landing of the Goths and Gepids on the lands of the Aestii most likely caused migration to the east between the first half of the 2nd and the second third of the 4th century AD. Why at this time? Ptolemy did not yet know about the Galindians on the Oka, but they were already mentioned in the Gothic saga about the conquests of King Hermanarich. In his opinion, the Galindians on the Oka formed (or merged?) the "Moshchinskaya culture" (most likely together with the Vyatichi). Incidentally, the name "Kuchko", which was borne by a boyar who owned villages along the Moscow River, is Baltic or Balto-Slavic. And the legendary (meaning not the famous one, but it is unclear whether he actually existed?) ancestor of the Romanovs, Glanda Divonovich Kambila, who came from Prussia, judging by his name, was related to the Galindians (especially since Glanda’s father, Divon, was from the Barts, a tribe of Prussians neighboring the Galindians).

But toponyms have survived: today in the Dmitrovsky and Klinsky districts of the Moscow region there are villages called Golyadi, and within the city of Moscow itself there is the Golyadanka River, a left tributary of the Moscow River. In the vicinity of Bryansk there was the village of Golyazhye (now renamed Otradnoye) founded in the 1000th century, and in the Komarichsky district of the Bryansk region there was the village of Golyadino, also with a XNUMX-year history. In the Borovsky district of the Kaluga region there is the village of Goltyayevo. Soviet geographer Yevgeny Pospelov believed that in a situation where a people lives in a foreign-language environment, geographical names are most often formed on the basis of an ethnonym. This theory is confirmed by the fact that the rivers Lama, Yauza, Nudol flow near the above-mentioned settlements, the names of which are undoubtedly Baltic!


Settlements of the Moshchinskaya culture in the Tula region

The Galindians lived in fortified settlements with an area of ​​0,4-0,5 hectares. The distances between settlements were about 30 km. Most often, they built their fortresses on the capes of rivers with high banks: thus, on three sides, the fortifications were surrounded by a river with high steep banks, and on the fourth - by a ditch and rampart. There are only two excavated settlements (Porechye and Ogubskoye) on remnants among the swamps. The ramparts were built from clay-sand soil, which was sprinkled on wooden structures, the palisade running along the top of the rampart was reinforced with stones.


Baltic ceramics from the Porechye settlement in the Tula region

Later, in the middle of the first millennium AD, unfortified villages began to appear near the hillforts. The main dwellings of the Galindians (if the Moshchinskaya culture really belongs to them, as Academician Vladimir Toporov believed) were "pillar houses": thin logs were laid horizontally between pillars spaced at intervals of 1-3 meters (according to another version, the distance between the pillars was sealed with wattle and plastered with clay). Sometimes the houses had two rooms, the floors in all were earthen, with hearths in the center of the room. All the houses were built around the central square of the hillfort, along its perimeter and along the rampart. The basis of the Galindian economy was slash-and-burn agriculture and cattle breeding. However, since the places where the Galindians lived were quite remote, hunting and fishing provided a tangible supplement to their diet.


"Turov knife" - weapon Galindians, presumably of Spanish ancestry

The Galindians were the only Baltic tribes to take an active part in the Great Migration of Peoples. From the Baltic coast they reached Italy and the Pyrenees, and some of them apparently returned back. At least, after 430, the Galindians began to use very distinctive "Turov-type knives" that have a clear resemblance to Spanish daggers and probably originate from Spanish falcatas and Roman swords. These knives have awl-shaped tips that can penetrate plate armor, unlike the scramasaxes, which had a mostly cutting function.

In principle, there is little information left about the Galindian military. However, according to the findings in the excavated settlements of the Moshchin culture, it was significantly different from that of other Baltic peoples, including the Lithuanians. It is known that the Lithuanians preferred darts to bows, while in the settlements of the Galindians the most common weapons were tanged arrowheads, and fragments of axes and spears were also found. Tales have survived about the robber Golyad, who threw an axe 30 miles away. Is this a memory of the real practice of throwing battle axes? It is unknown: there is too little data - the Galindians did not have their own written language.

Many Galindian settlements have traces of assault and fire. However, judging by the set of weapons and how quickly life was restored on the ashes, the settlements were stormed by... the same Galindians - "one clan rose up against another". Subsequently, Slavic settlements appeared on almost all sites of Galindian fortresses - the Slavs loved to live along river banks no less than their predecessors, but there are no traces of assaults. Scientists still cannot come to a consensus: either the Galindians left their settlements before the arrival of the Slavs, or they were simply absorbed by Slavic culture.

It is not typical for a normal person to run around with a skull measurer and calculate the percentage of "Slavicness", "Finno-Ugricness" or "Aryanness" in the ancestors of their contemporaries. It is difficult for me to understand why the Ukrainian nationalists did not like the Finno-Ugrics. But the Baltic peoples were worthy opponents on the battlefield of both the Germans and the Slavs. And the Galindians near Moscow, who mixed with the Vyatichi and became the ancestors of the Great Russians (one of many!) are a worthy people, whose genes one can be quite proud of...

P.S. And most likely, Muscovites owe their characteristic "akanye" to the Galindas: the Lithuanians still call Moscow "Maskavas". Among the surrounding "okanye" regions, this is a very characteristic feature!
70 comments
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  1. +2
    4 January 2025 05: 15
    And in the Irkutsk region there lived two villages of Hollanders and you can still find surnames like Ludwig.
    1. +8
      4 January 2025 07: 57
      And in the Irkutsk region there lived two villages of Dutchmen
      These are descendants of Dutch Protestants, Anabaptists, I think. They have nothing to do with the characters in the article...
  2. +6
    4 January 2025 05: 30
    "Baltic or Balto-Slavic."
    What's the difference?
    "The Galindians lived in fortified settlements with an area of ​​0,4-0,5 hectares"
    That is, 400-500 sq.m. And how many residents were there?
    1. +4
      4 January 2025 06: 16
      area of ​​0,4-0,5 hectares" i.e. 400-500 sq.m.

      ten times more; approximately eight summer cottages of six hundred square meters each.
    2. +7
      4 January 2025 06: 23
      A hectare is still 10000 square meters. And on 40-50 acres there is room for accommodation.
    3. +1
      4 January 2025 17: 25
      The Balto-Slavs are the ancestors of the Balts and Slavs, in other words, the community from which both the Balts and Slavs later emerged...
    4. 0
      8 January 2025 17: 53
      Half a hectare is 5000 sq. m or 50 acres.
  3. +5
    4 January 2025 05: 55
    Or maybe the prefix "Gal" means belonging to the Gallic tribes? After all, all these first mentions come from ancient authors who called the Celts Gauls. It would be interesting to know what this people called themselves? This would immediately put everything in its place.
    1. +1
      4 January 2025 17: 27
      I heard the interpretation of "Latgala" as an inverted "Galatians". In principle, Rybakov saw, if I'm not mistaken, a Celtic influence on the early Slavs and Balts, but I've read about this topic for a long time, I'm afraid to lie...
    2. +1
      4 January 2025 20: 48
      Moreover, among the Latvians, who are related to Lithuania, the sub-ethnic group is still called LatGALs.
  4. +7
    4 January 2025 06: 23
    At least, after 430, the Galindians were armed with very distinctive "Turov-type knives", which have a clear resemblance to Spanish daggers, and probably originate from Spanish falcatas and Roman swords. These knives have awl-shaped tips, capable of piercing plate armor, unlike the scramasaxes, which had a mostly cutting function.
    Now I wonder if the author of the falcata has ever seen it to trace the genesis of "Turov-type knives" from it?
    1. +1
      4 January 2025 15: 35
      Yes indeed! I saw it. It is hard to say why experts (I am not one) attribute the Turov knife to the falcata. I will assume (at least, this is often the case) that they find some similarity in the handles (I cannot say whether the word "hilt" is applicable to the knife), the blades are steel, they are poorly preserved, the handles are bronze or precious metal, so things are better with them. It seems that the shape of the handles and the scabbard plates is similar...
  5. +1
    4 January 2025 06: 50
    It is not a fact that Galinda and Golyad are one and the same.
    1. +1
      4 January 2025 15: 37
      In relation to pre-literate tribes, everything is not a fact, but certain moments in ceramics, brooches and other archaeological finds make one think that this is exactly the case. My opinion here is not authoritative, but archaeologists interpret finds from the Baltic coast and the Moscow region in this way.
      1. +1
        4 January 2025 20: 27
        It's good that we don't have a "Golyad" republic on our map. Otherwise, they would have told us now that Genghis Khan was from the Golyads and that they were the first on the planet, and everyone else served them as slaves. It's a common thing to search for great ancestors.
  6. +6
    4 January 2025 07: 00
    Remarks:
    1. In Rus' they were called Golyad, hence the trail of names that appeared with this ethnic group in toponymy should be used. Galindy is clearly not a typical name for Russian speech.
    2. In the currently fashionable genetics, in the most "Russian" haplotype R1a - there is a small trace of a haplogroup characteristic of the Balto-Slavic or Prussian tribes, which discourages many. With high probability, these are the descendants of that very Golyad.
    3. As for the strong Finno-Ugric component in the genetics of Russians, this is a fact proven by the Bashkir (Ufa) center of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the most competent in the Russian Federation. And perhaps it was precisely the fusion of linguistic and genetic groups that predicted what is now called the Russian nation, with its characteristic behavioral type of explorers of a gigantic space, different from that of the Western Slavs. This must be accepted rationally - as enrichment, and not be ashamed, showing one's ignorance.
    1. +4
      4 January 2025 08: 04
      As for the strong Finno-Ugric component in the Russian genetics, this is a fact
      Here we can also add the Turkic component. Slavs (west), Finns (north) and Turks (south) - this is the root from which the Russian ethnic group grew. Roughly the same group of peoples can include the Khikhly, only with a greater admixture of the Turkic component, and the Belarusians, in whom the Slavic component prevails over the other two...
      1. +1
        4 January 2025 20: 57
        The Belarusians are dominated by the Baltic rather than the "Slavic" component. Almost all toponyms there are read in Baltic: Polotsk - Paltiski, Mozyr - Mozis, Nesvizh - Nesvizus. Actually, Balta is "white" in Lithuanian, Belarus <-> Balta Rusija.
        1. 0
          5 January 2025 17: 17
          Belarusians have a predominantly Baltic rather than "Slavic" component

          No. Balts are different. Balts have different genetics.
          The Balts are dominated by N1C
          Belarusians, like Poles, are dominated by R1A
    2. +3
      4 January 2025 08: 12
      In the currently fashionable genetics, in the most "Russian" haplotype R1a - there is a small trace of a haplogroup characteristic of the Balto-Slavic or Prussian tribes, which discourages many
      What can be discouraging here, if in Russians the haplogroup N1c1 is as widespread as R1a. The entire Russian North is almost N1c1...
    3. +2
      4 January 2025 15: 41
      And no one argues with this fact - the okanye in the Russian language of the Volga region is precisely the Finno-Ugric influence. But much less is known about the Balts in the Moscow region. As for "being ashamed", who else but the "descendants of the ancient chickens" is ashamed? I do not claim "purity of blood": what is not mixed, from Karelians to Tatars... It is the inhabitants of the Carpathians who boast of the purity of Slavic blood (yes, it is funny, but they still consider themselves pure Slavs, I personally heard in Kolomyia))).
  7. +2
    4 January 2025 07: 28
    The Russian language has about 40 percent of coincidence with Sanskrit, and Lithuanian has 70 percent. The names of many peoples in Eastern Europe come from geographical names, and not vice versa. The most ancient and stable names are the names of rivers, hydronyms. Most of the rivers on the East European Plain have ancient Proto-Indo-European names, which are easily translated from Sanskrit. Let's start with Moksha, which gave the name to the Mordvin tribe. In Sanskrit, Moksha is "liberation", meaning liberation from reincarnation for the transition to nirvana. Moksha flows into the Oka, which in Sanskrit means "large stream". Oka flows into the Volga - "road to freedom" in Sanskrit.
    Now Protvá and Lama... Protvá, :pratvá:"- strong, mighty, well, and Lama is just another name for "guru". And how many Suras and Ganges we have in Russia... And there is no need to look for the Slavic or Finno-Ugric origin of the names of the rivers, these are more ancient names in the Proto-Indo-European language, which arose here and diverged from the people who created the language, to the west and south... and of course "someone" stayed here. Russia is the Homeland of Elephants drinks
    1. +4
      4 January 2025 12: 59
      there is no need to look for the Slavic or Finno-Ugric origin of the river names, these are more ancient names in the Proto-Indo-European language,

      Good afternoon, Nikolai!
      Well, they try, they search )))
      Here, for example, are the generally recognized Baltic names:
      Protva, Nara, Pakhra, Lama, Shosha, Dubna, Yakhroma, Sestra, Istra, Ruza, Yauza, Klyazma, Drezna, Gzhel, and apparently Moscow itself.
      The ones that surprised me the most were Dubna and Gzhel wassat )))
      1. +2
        4 January 2025 14: 14
        Protva, Nara, Pakhra, Lama, Shosha, Dubna, Yakhroma, Sestra, Istra, Ruza, Yauza, Klyazma, Drezna, Gzhel,

        Nara, Shosha, Lama are pure Sanskrit. Nara is a person, Lama is the title of a teacher, like a guru, Shosha, many rivers ending in sha, also Moksha, Shoksha, Koksha, and Shosha is an avatar of Vishnu. This is all a proto-language long before the separation of the Baltic, Slavic and Finnish languages. The Mordvins themselves do not know how to translate Moksha. The Middle Volga is a treasure trove of ancient hydronyms, for example, in Mordovia the Barakhmanka River flows into the Alatyr, and the Alatyr into the Sura, completely Mordvin names. laughing Alatyr is amber from the Baltic, and combustible stone and altar, and Sura is a god in Sanskrit, no one has yet proven the origin of the names of these rivers, only versions and it is impossible to claim that Protvа is a Baltic word, this is only one of the versions. And how many Voings or Vaengs are there in Russia... I have already explained the etymology of these river names. Vaenga in Severomorsk is considered to be Vazhenka, a female deer, in the Sami language. But where are the Sami, and where is the Vladimir region and the Voininga River, and Voininga is a frequently used name among the southern and western Slavs in ancient times, this is how they called children born without fathers who went to war. In Sanskrit, Ga or gat' is a road, and voin is simply a war, i.e. Voininga is a road to war... believe it or not
        1. +2
          4 January 2025 14: 48
          Nara, Shosha, Lama are pure Sanskrit.

          What did you expect? )))
          Just look at Scandinavia and the Russian North! There's not a single living place there because of the glacier! It melted somewhere around 12 thousand years ago, and what did our ancestors do then? Did they really just obediently expose themselves to kilometer-thick ice? Of course, because of the slowly advancing glacier (or maybe a fast one), they went south, got all sorts of things there, and then, as the glacier melted and went into the Arctic, they gradually began to return.
          I admit that since the "bottleneck" (approximately 70 thousand years ago) there have been more than one or two glaciations (they say there will be a new one soon). They did not return quickly and even created new words on the way home, the language underwent radical changes, and it is impossible to say what it was like at the very beginning among the people of the North. But some Sanskrit words did reach home, hence "lama" and others.
          1. +1
            4 January 2025 15: 22
            the language underwent radical changes,

            Yes, as we moved north, Voyninga gradually turned into Vaenga on the shores of the Barents Sea, and in Vologda it was still Voinga, in Karelia Voinga. They forgot their roots
    2. +1
      4 January 2025 17: 37
      As for the fact that peoples are named by their toponyms, and not vice versa, I think that Academician Toporov will not agree with you, and if we are guided by common sense, then this is ... It is difficult to imagine. I served in Primorye, there were originally a lot of Chinese names there, now there are almost none left, and it never occurred to any of the Russian settlers to name settlements by the names of the remaining "tinkans" and "pidans" - I try to remember at least one village with a Chinese name - nothing comes to mind. When moving to a new area, a person first of all gives a name to the surrounding landscape features, and he gives these names in his own language. That is why historians believe that where the names of villages are not of Slavic origin, most likely, non-Slavic tribes lived ...
      1. +1
        4 January 2025 17: 52
        to name settlements by the names of the remaining "tincans"

        I wrote - by hydronyms, there were no other geographical names, and not by settlements. The rivers in Primorye did not change their names
    3. 0
      4 January 2025 21: 00
      The suffix "-va" in toponymy is considered typically Baltic: Lithuania, Yatva, Sudva, Protva, etc.
      1. 0
        5 January 2025 06: 05
        The suffix "-va" in toponymy is considered typically Baltic: Lithuania, Yatva, Sudva, Protva, etc.

        This is according to V. Toporov, an honorary academician
        Academies of Latvia. Translate Protv from Baltic
  8. 0
    4 January 2025 08: 29
    The article is certainly interesting, but why were the Ugro-finans not good for the author?
    1. 0
      4 January 2025 08: 46
      The article is certainly interesting, but why were the Ugro-finans not good for the author?

      Not to the author, but to the Ukronazis. The editors of VO deleted the word mokshane as offensive and are deleting it again, I am forced to use the English spelling
    2. +1
      4 January 2025 15: 43
      And who said that they didn't please? I myself come from Tver, the most "Ugro-Finnish" OK territory)))
      1. +1
        4 January 2025 16: 21
        So he can not be embarrassed. That Russians are rather Ugro-Finnic. Who are the Slavs? Yulghars are Turks. Czechoslovaks are Germans. And some Chuvash is a Russian.
        1. +1
          4 January 2025 16: 53
          In principle, I am skeptical about digging into haplogroups. The only real marker of nationality is language. To a lesser extent - culture. And haplogroups... There was practically no Russian blood in the veins of Emperor Alexander III, however, it is difficult to call him a German. As for the Czechs, this is how the Poles explained to me the difference between the Czechs and the Poles: if you call a Czech a German, he will smile and thank you, but if you start a Pole like that, you can get punched in the face))) Although both are Western Slavs...
          1. +1
            4 January 2025 17: 15
            Although both of them are Western Slavs...

            They are different.
            1. +1
              4 January 2025 17: 39
              How different they are! Czechs are very strongly Germanized.
              1. +1
                4 January 2025 17: 41
                Yes. That's true. There are many assimilated Germans among the Czechs.
              2. +1
                4 January 2025 21: 06
                To be precise, the Czechs, Carinthians, Styrians, Slovenes, Bavarians, most of the "lower Austrians", some Croats and Serbs are Eastern Celts, partly Slavicized, partly Germanized. The phenotype is similar: Goering, Tito, Otto Skorzeny, Milos Bekovic - they are like twin brothers.
        2. +4
          4 January 2025 17: 47
          Russian is not a nationality at all, it is a supra-ethnic superstructure. Remember Stalin: "I am a Russian of Georgian origin." Or the great Russian navigator Bellingshausen Fabian Gottlieb. Which of them is Chuvash? My father is Polish, my mother is Buryat, and I am Russian, damn it. Or should I become Chuvash? laughing
          1. +3
            4 January 2025 18: 01
            Or - the great Russian navigator Bellingshausen Fabian Gottlieb
            "The great Russian artist Levitan was born into a poor Jewish family." laughing drinks
            1. +3
              4 January 2025 18: 25
              The great Russian artist Levitan

              Kuindzhi!
              You forgot about Kuindzhi, Anton. drinks )))
          2. +1
            4 January 2025 18: 09
            I come from the region where Chuvashes, Maris, and Udmurts live nearby. That's why the Finno-Ugric people are closer to me than the unknown Galindians.
            By the way
            In the Russian language, the concept of "nationality" has also remained a synonym for the term "ethnos" since 1926. The concept of "ethnos" was introduced into scientific circulation in 1923 by a Russian emigrant scientist
          3. 0
            5 January 2025 03: 39
            Quote: Doliva63
            Russian is not a nationality at all, it is a supra-ethnic superstructure. laughing
            Russian is a way of life...
            The people are determined by the general culture - customs and traditions.
            The nation is determined by the general History
  9. +3
    4 January 2025 08: 46
    1. The Balts and Slavs originally constituted the Balto-Slavic ethnic unity, inhabiting the region from the lower reaches of the Vistula to the upper reaches of the Oka, from the Baltic ("White") Sea to the southern tributaries of the Pripyat. Around the 4th century, the Slavs began to separate into a separate Proto-Slavic ethnic group. This occurred in the territory of Polesia (the Pripyat River basin). The language of the Proto-Slavs of the 4th century was still close to the languages ​​of the tribes-ancestors of modern Lithuanians and Latvians.
    2. The Great Migration of Peoples under pressure from the Goths, Avars, Huns and other steppe nomads draws our ancestors west and southwest from Polesia. The Proto-Slavic ethnos takes part in the campaigns of Alaric and Atila to the lands of the Roman Empire split into two parts, and also settles in the deserted lands from the Labe (Elbe) and the entire course of the Danube. Some tribes reach northern Italy, southern Greece and penetrate into Asia Minor. The Proto-Slavic ethnos is divided into western, southern and eastern branches of tribes.
    3. In the 9th century, states began to form where the Slavs became the majority of the population. Often these states were formed as a union of nomadic steppe dwellers and Slavic clans and tribes. The Slavs as a settled element gradually dissolved the nomadic ethnic groups in themselves.
    4. As a result of interaction with their neighbors, the Slavs enriched their dialects, which over time would give birth to modern Slavic languages. In addition, they adopted more progressive methods of farming from their neighbors (mainly the Byzantines), and also became familiar with cattle breeding - cows and bulls.
    5. Some of the Slavs do not remain in the new lands and return to their Polesia homeland with their spoils. But the territory of the Polesia swamps is inconvenient for raising large livestock and the Slavs continue to move in a wide stream to the north and northeast, where they hope to find convenient places for grazing livestock. On this route, the Slavs "push apart" the Balt tribes, who either move closer to the Baltic ("White") Sea or merge with the Slavs, who will later be called "Krivichi" (from the Old Slavonic "krava" (cow)). Another part of the Balts remains in their former habitats, but finds themselves under the strong influence of their Slavic neighbors both in terms of farming methods and linguistic influence. The Galindians in the Oka basin and the Latgalians in the Western Dvina basin are just such tribes.
    1. +4
      4 January 2025 09: 14
      Quote: Yuras_Belarus
      Some of the Slavs do not remain in the new lands and return to their Polesia homeland with their spoils
      Why should the Slavs return to their wild, remote corner when the lands of the rich Roman provinces opened up before them?
      1. +3
        4 January 2025 15: 47
        I will express a heretical thought: what if it was not the Slavs who moved, but only the leaders with their squads? The squads - unmarried youth, for the most part, those who found a wife on the spot - stayed, the married ones - returned home...
        1. +2
          4 January 2025 18: 34
          Quote: Flying_Dutchman
          What if it wasn’t the Slavs who were moving, but only the leaders with their squads?
          The times were too disturbing and dangerous. Someone had to protect the settled population. A squad in a new place is a guarantee of safety
    2. +2
      4 January 2025 11: 43
      One could agree with everything, if not for "getting acquainted with cattle breeding". The spread of genes for lactose digestion in adulthood clearly defines the ancient centers of cattle breeding. This is the north of Europe. In addition, there is a common myth for Indo-Europeans about the theft of cows.
  10. Msi
    0
    4 January 2025 09: 02
    It’s hard for me to understand why Ukrainian nationalists are upset about the Finno-Ugrians.

    I absolutely did not understand this proposal by the author... What kind of attempts are these to understand Ukrainian nationalism. negative Why sort out all this crap? They are nationalists... They wrote an interesting article, what are these proposals for? request
  11. +3
    4 January 2025 10: 23
    Quote: Feodor13
    As for the strong Finno-Ugric component in the genetics of Russians, this is a fact proven by the Bashkir (Ufa) Center of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the most competent in the Russian Federation.

    The Finno-Ugrians are actually a linguistic community, not a racial-genetic one.
    Before the arrival of the Finns, Balts, Germans and Slavs, there was already a population on the territory of Eastern Europe - where did it go according to Bashkir scientists?
    Maybe Bashkir scientists are charlatans and are busy constructing another great nation, for example, with Turkish grants?
    1. +2
      4 January 2025 17: 20
      The Finno-Ugrians are actually a linguistic community, not a racial-genetic one.

      In fact, the Finno-Ugrics may be a linguistic community, or they may be genetic.
      One does not cancel the other.
  12. -2
    4 January 2025 10: 26
    Quote: Konnick
    And there is no need to look for the Slavic or Finno-Ugric origin of the river names, these are more ancient names in the Proto-Indo-European language, which arose here and diverged with the people who created the language to the west and south... and of course "someone" stayed here.

    There is a version that Finnish and one of the Caucasian languages ​​became the basis for the Indo-European languages.
    1. +3
      4 January 2025 14: 26
      There is a version that Finnish and one of the Caucasian languages ​​became the basis for the Indo-European languages.

      The most popular one now is the Kurgan Hypothesis, put forward in the 50s by the American of Lithuanian descent Marija Gimbutas, who believed that the Proto-Indo-European language arose between the Middle Volga and the Southern Urals. More and more artifacts confirm this hypothesis. And it is funny to read that the Slavs were taught to handle cattle by the Byzantines
      1. +3
        4 January 2025 15: 09
        Quote: Konnick
        Proto-Indo-European language arose between the Middle Volga and the Southern Urals
        This is according to archaeological data, and not entirely confirmed. But according to the data linguistic anthropology, the Proto-Indo-European language arose in the north. And the main argument in favor of this theory is the so-called salmon argument or salmon versionAs you know, this fish is found in the north and no Kurgan or what other theories of the Indo-European homeland do not explain the appearance of this word among peoples living much further south. This is also a hypothesis, the same as the Kurgan theory and many others...
        1. +1
          4 January 2025 15: 15
          Proto-Indo-European language originated in the north

          How could it have appeared there? There was a glacier a kilometer thick, and between the Middle Volga and the Southern Urals there was the richest grass tundra steppe with the highest concentration of protein food in the form of large herbivores, such as the mammoth, for example. Or do you think that language appeared only after the glaciation?
          1. +2
            4 January 2025 15: 22
            Quote: Konnick
            How could it have appeared there, there was a glacier a kilometer thick
            Salmon don't live in kilometer-thick glaciers. They probably lived in places that weren't as harsh. Besides, it's just a theory, but it seems the most plausible to me.
        2. +1
          4 January 2025 20: 30
          Quote: Luminman
          But according to the data of linguistic anthropology,

          The Slavic script was created by the Solun brothers for worship. The bulk of the literature of Ancient Rus is Christian literature. When it was written or rewritten, the influence of the countries from which Christianity came to us can be traced: Greece, Bulgaria, Moravia, possibly Ireland. It is impossible to trace how the Slavic, Russian or Finnish languages ​​developed more than 1000 years ago. We can only judge a little about the Novgorod dialect of the Russian language. About 1000 birch bark letters written over about 500 years were found in Novgorod. What can be said about the dialects of Tver, Smolensk or Pskov if about 10 letters were found for each city in these cities?
  13. +3
    4 January 2025 10: 30
    Quote: Yuras_Belarus
    and also get acquainted with cattle breeding - cows and bulls.

    So the Indo-Europeans were cattle breeders - why did they need to relearn cattle breeding? And what could they borrow from Byzantium - the various agricultural technologies?
    1. +1
      4 January 2025 14: 35
      So the Indo-Europeans were pastoralists

      And not only that, the oldest burial of a domestic horse in the world was found in a burial ground near the village of Syezzhee in the Bogatovsky district of the Samara region. It was built in the forest-steppe on the bank of the Samara River around 5000 BC. Not in Egypt, not in Mesopotamia, and certainly not in Greece or Byzantium.
      Russia Homeland of Elephants drinks
      Yes, and the oldest spoked wheel is ours tongue
  14. +2
    4 January 2025 14: 45
    It immediately struck me: "liaudis" - "people". For those who don't know Lithuanian, it might work. "Liaudis" - people, and people - žmonės (zhmones).
    1. +2
      4 January 2025 15: 17
      It immediately struck me: “liaudis” — “people”

      From Golyad in the Russian language there remains the expression - Why the hell? Why the hell?
      1. +2
        4 January 2025 17: 28
        the expression "Why the hell" remains

        And also a reduced version of the phrase "big golyad" smile
  15. +1
    4 January 2025 17: 44
    Quote: Flying_Dutchman
    The Balto-Slavs are the ancestors of the Balts and Slavs, in other words, the community from which both the Balts and Slavs later emerged...

    But this is butter and butter! There lived Balts and Slavs and then they split into Balts and Slavs))))
    Or maybe it’s simpler, the Balto-Slavs are the Slavs who lived along the shores of the Baltic, and the Gulf of Finland.
  16. +1
    4 January 2025 17: 53
    Quote: Flying_Dutchman
    I will express a heretical thought: what if it was not the Slavs who moved, but only the leaders with their squads? The squads - unmarried youth, for the most part, those who found a wife on the spot - stayed, the married ones - returned home...

    Was it the leaders and their squads who created tribal unions on the territory of today’s Germany, from which Berlin, Rostock, Schwerin, for example, still remain?
  17. 0
    4 January 2025 20: 03
    Quote: Gardamir
    I come from the region where Chuvashes, Maris, and Udmurts live nearby. That's why the Finno-Ugric people are closer to me than the unknown Galindians.
    By the way
    In the Russian language, the concept of "nationality" has also remained a synonym for the term "ethnos" since 1926. The concept of "ethnos" was introduced into scientific circulation in 1923 by a Russian emigrant scientist

    I come from a region where mainly ethnic Azerbaijanis live, but this does not prevent me from thinking like this: the only state in whose name Russians were mentioned as one of the nationalities inhabiting it was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Then there were no others or have I forgotten something? And even the RSFSR was not Russian. Russian. That is, there really are no Russians for a long time. Are Russians identical to Russians? Logically, no. So Russians are not a nationality, but a "new community of people" that formed in the Russian Empire as a variant of a certain community of different nations and nationalities, united by the task of surviving.
  18. 0
    4 January 2025 22: 28
    Actually, Protvino is a left tributary of the Oka, not a right tributary of the Moscow. Be careful with your geography.
  19. 0
    4 January 2025 23: 21
    Well, words change their meaning over time, sometimes drastically. Hence, it is not a fact that the name of the tribe should be associated with the Baltics, with the same success it could be with a stump in the Pskov region.
  20. 0
    5 January 2025 16: 59
    Quote: Gardamir
    So he can not be embarrassed that Russians are more like Finno-Ugric peoples.

    That's right. And Belinsky with Bebik and De Ruzhinsky wrote about this. :)
  21. +1
    5 January 2025 18: 10
    Quote: cat Rusich
    Quote: Doliva63
    Russian is not a nationality at all, it is a supra-ethnic superstructure. laughing
    Russian is a way of life...
    The people are determined by the general culture - customs and traditions.
    The nation is determined by the general History

    But what if we all have overlapping history and culture?