Surviving a Nuclear Apocalypse: Low-Rise Development vs. "Human Anthills"

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Surviving a Nuclear Apocalypse: Low-Rise Development vs. "Human Anthills"

The Russian special military operation (SVO) in Ukraine has led to a significant deterioration in relations with Western countries. Due to the aggressive escalation imposed by Western countries by actually conducting military operations against Russia using Ukraine as a weapon of war, the situation is close to or even exceeds the Cuban Missile Crisis in terms of the risks of a nuclear apocalypse.

For the first time in stories a combat use of a medium-range ballistic missile was carried out, so far in a non-nuclear version. The nuclear doctrine of the Russian Federation has been adjusted, lowering the threshold for use and expanding the list of threats that, if they arise, would trigger a nuclear weapon can be applied.



The next stage of escalation could be Russia's nuclear weapons tests - We have already spoken about the need to do this, because those living today have completely lost their fear of this weapon, considering it, if not non-existent, then somehow "inapplicable". At the same time, some people are experiencing something like euphoria - they say, we must definitely "hit", and at the USA, and we will somehow survive the retaliatory strike.

Well, I would like to disappoint those who like to survive on the couch in radioactive wastelands – our country is currently extremely vulnerable to the use of nuclear weapons against us, and Russia is even more vulnerable in this regard than the Soviet Union was at the time of the emergence and first use of nuclear weapons, however, in many ways this is also true in relation to other developed countries of the world.

Below we will compare what has changed for the worse in our country compared to the USSR of the mid-20th century and modern Russia of the 21st century in terms of resistance to the massive use of nuclear weapons by the enemy, and what needs to be done to correct this.

It is worth noting that we are not talking only about a global nuclear apocalypse, but about any serious crisis - an epidemic, an asteroid impact, superflares on the Sun, which can lead to a total failure of not only "delicate" electronics, but also power grids.

So, first of all, let's look at the housing problem.

USSR in the mid-20th century


Let's start with the fact that in the USSR a significant part of the population lived in rural areas or in urban-type settlements. It is logical that the more settlements there are, the fewer people there are in each of them, the lower the probability that something nuclear will fly to them - you can't stock up on atomic bombs for all the villages.


It may not be the most comfortable place to live, but it is the most autonomous housing. Image: deni-spiri.livejournal.com.

Given the lack of gasification at that time, almost all houses had such an achievement of civilization (without quotes) as a Russian stove, which could heat the house in any frost. Of course, it is simpler and more efficient to heat the stove with coal, but in its absence this was perfectly carried out with firewood.

Water supply was carried out by transporting water by brute force from a well, spring and/or from a nearby body of water. To ensure long-term storage of perishable products in the summer, there was a cellar and an icehouse.


Cellar

Natural needs were met by using such an environmentally friendly and carbon-neutral invention as a cesspool. And for carrying out hygiene procedures, another great invention was used (also without quotation marks!) – the Russian bathhouse.

As for the cities, if we don’t take into account the center of Moscow and Leningrad (now St. Petersburg), everything was similar in many ways.

The population lived mainly in low-rise buildings two or three stories high. These were mainly buildings with fairly thick walls, often with stove heating, and even in the case of centralized heating, many houses and apartments had potbelly stoves.


Even in the late 80s and early 90s, water heating for the bath in some two-story houses in the villages of the Tula region was carried out using a Titan type heater, which ran on coal or wood. Of course, this created significant household inconvenience, but as an autonomous source of heat in a crisis situation it was of great importance.


Also in cities and towns there were quite a lot of private one-story houses with all the attributes corresponding to them, discussed above. Within walking distance there was usually a well or a spring, later they were supplemented by water columns.

In the courtyards of low-rise buildings, even in fairly large cities, most residents had their own garages and/or sheds with a basement/cellar, and many still have them - the fight against sheds has only begun recently, after all, you have to stick another "candle" somewhere.

In general, in the USSR in the mid-20th century, the population lived in the most dispersed way possible for such a powerful industrial power, and at the same time, it was as independent as possible from centralized public services.

However, negative processes began to develop even then and reached their peak in our time.

Russia at the beginning of the 21st century


The increase in the number of storeys began in the USSR in the form of "Khrushchyovkas" and "Brezhnevkas". From five-storey apartment buildings, the country quickly moved to nine-storey ones, then to sixteen-storey ones, and then the height of the apartment buildings being erected exceeded twenty storeys. As the number of storeys of buildings increased, their dependence on various auxiliary devices and urban infrastructure increased, first of all, their dependence on electricity increased.


If you can climb up to the fifth floor on foot without any problems, the ninth is more difficult, but quite feasible for most people, then in buildings of 12-16 floors and more, in case of elevator failure or power outage, climbing to the upper floors becomes a huge problem. In five- and nine-story buildings, water, including in the heating system, comes under the pressure of pumps from the local water utility, and in buildings with more floors, additional pumps are required, which require electricity to operate.

In some high-rise buildings, rooftop boilers are installed, but in addition to gas, they also require electricity to power the pumps. In buildings with twelve floors or more, for safety reasons, gas is not supplied for domestic use, that is, the stoves for cooking are also electric.


Based on my own experience in the 90s, when problems with utilities were, if not the norm, then a completely ordinary phenomenon, as well as the experience of wars and armed conflicts in other countries and regions, in the event of a crisis, electricity is the first thing to go out. Then comes water - hot and cold, and heating. Gas usually lasts the longest, however, this depends on the scale of the crisis - in principle, everything can "go down" almost simultaneously.

After this, the multi-story “human anthills” will quickly begin to turn into places of mass burials – multi-story crypts, especially in winter.

The seismic resistance of modern domestic multi-story buildings is also questionable. It seems that the author came across an article a couple of years ago about the resistance of buildings to earthquakes, from which it followed that of all possible options, panel multi-story buildings with a beam load-bearing structure had the best seismic resistance, but this is not certain.

In any case, it is unlikely that in our time of total savings and profitability, anyone would include excessive strength in structures during construction without good reason and strict control.

What's the result?


If the enemy had used nuclear weapons against cities and towns, respectively, in the USSR in the mid-20th century or Russia in the early 21st century, in the first case there would have been significantly more survivors.

Firstly, the population density was significantly lower, private houses and low-rise buildings were distributed territorially, so that the enemy, in order to cover them all, would need many more nuclear charges than are now needed to destroy millions of people living in the “human anthills”.

Many houses or their vicinity had basements and/or cellars where one could quickly take cover when the alarm was sounded. In this sense, the basements of multi-story buildings are also more likely to become mass graves, buried under tens to hundreds of tons of charred reinforced concrete and brick, and they are now most often closed, as are bomb shelters, even if they are somewhere nearby.

Secondly, living in the “human anthills” of modern cities will become impossible or practically impossible in the event of the destruction of critical urban infrastructure, primarily due to the lack of heating and water, as well as the difficulty of climbing to the upper floors.

Due to overcrowding, intense competition between survivors for the remaining resources is inevitable. The non-functioning sewage system combined with the lack of water supply will cause outbreaks of infectious diseases, which in cold conditions will lead to numerous deaths, primarily among children.


Screenshot from the computer game "Metro 2023"

Attempts to heat multi-story buildings using stoves or gas cylinders will lead to fires and the collapse of entrances, since with such a high density of living, at least one inattentive and illiterate idiot will be found.

At the same time, in the low-rise development zone it is much easier to get access to water, the sewerage problem is less acute. Even in those houses where there is no stove heating, it can be implemented relatively easily with the help of "potbelly stoves".

Conclusions


One of the most important factors in the country's resilience to a massive nuclear strike is the dispersed low-rise development.

Ideally, individual or low-rise houses under construction should have autonomous heating (at least additional, for example, a fireplace) and a basement.

Considering the interest of large holdings in building “human anthills,” it is difficult to imagine whether it is possible to stop this process and reverse it.

Of course, many citizens have a demand for individual housing, but it is very difficult to implement. Firstly, due to the huge prices for building houses - people cannot buy an apartment, and a capital individual building will cost two to three times more.

Secondly, because individual construction in Russian cities is organized in the most senseless and illogical way. You can save up for your house all your life, build it, and a year later, fifty meters away, a microdistrict with multi-story buildings will be built, from the windows of which tens of thousands of people will stare into your previously cozy courtyard, and the adjacent territories will be filled with hundreds and thousands of cars.

There are no multi-year plans for the development of urban and suburban areas, and even if they exist, they can be adjusted at any time to please the developer holdings (most likely, not on a free basis).

The situation can only be changed by some kind of systemic decision at the level of the country's leadership, which will make low-rise development a priority, ensure zoning, within the framework of which the joint development of low-rise and high-rise buildings will be excluded, as well as the development of the corresponding infrastructure, primarily connection to utility networks and the construction of wide highways and interchanges.

Nowadays, in our time, there is a huge number of modern construction technologies, starting from frame houses and ending with the use of block, modular or 3D-printed construction structures. In mass construction, individual houses in low-rise buildings may be no more expensive than apartments in modern multi-apartment buildings-"human anthills", but for this it is necessary to moderate the appetites of construction holdings, reorienting them to a new direction of activity.


3D printed house

In addition to the increased resilience of Russian cities to various crises, including full-scale military operations with the use of nuclear weapons, individual housing and low-rise development will help reduce social tensions arising from overcrowding in “human anthills,” and therefore increase labor productivity, as well as the increase in the birth rate so desired by the government.

And finally, let's remember the cult of low-rise housing in the USA and the decentralization of their population's residence in small towns, and think about who has an advantage in this area?
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  1. +25
    28 December 2024 04: 52
    Unfortunately, human anthills will only grow upwards, many would like to live in their own house, cottage, townhouse, but it is all expensive, very expensive, although now everything is expensive, even a studio of 20 square meters. I am sure that such a problem as a nuclear strike is not even considered by us, although some shout: Let's bang and show everyone! Before banging, it is worth at least looking at the state of our shelters, there is not just a nuclear explosion, there you can at least enter and exit there intact, the civil defense and emergency infrastructure in the cities is destroyed, everything has long been sawed up and handed over for scrap metal, and the shelters are abandoned. And the most offensive thing is that we are not Singapore, we have enough land to resettle everyone normally, but no one is interested in this, and the lives of ordinary people do not bother anyone, especially their daily life, the main thing is to have someone to cut cash from. And it is enough to strike Moscow, and here you go, 20 million as if from a bush, management bodies, production, well, it is not stupid to concentrate everything in one city... And to strike at ordinary cities, will this somehow affect our construction oligarchs? Well, a couple of million will die, well, okay, the main thing is that the house in Spain is intact, the family in France is resting, there is money in the accounts, live without worrying, well, of course, for the sake of decency there will be patriotic speeches, puffing out the cheeks, and about the need for heroic volunteers, the main thing is not to forget to buy a plane ticket in advance, because in the evening you want to go home, to the beach of Miami or the Cote d'Azur....
    1. +6
      28 December 2024 06: 44
      I am also for everything good, against everything bad. laughing
      Quote from turembo
      Unfortunately, human anthills will only grow upwards, many would like to live in their own house, cottage, townhouse, but it is all expensive, very expensive, although now everything is expensive, even a studio of 20 square meters.

      Unfortunately, this is our objective reality. The cost of a "candle" for 300 apartments (the price of land, communications, their supply and maintenance) will never be comparable in price with a cottage village for 300 houses.
      The second point is that buying a house is not cheap, and maintaining it is also not a pleasure for the poor. If in a "candle" the costs of communications and maintenance of the adjacent territory are more or less spread among all the residents, then in a cottage everyone is on their own.
      Well, and finally - transport. Near a multi-story microdistrict, they "stuck in" a metro station, 2-3 bus stops, and the problem seems to be more or less solved. In a cottage village, this won't work, the distances are completely different, which means universal ownership of personal vehicles, and more than one car per family.
      Hence the conclusion that low-rise construction can be afforded by a non-poor country with (point) high income level population. And with this we are somehow "not very good" request
      And as the "icing on the cake", for some commentators and authors of VO laughing
      Private home ownership implies a fairly high priority of the concept of the culture of "private property". At the very least, if not opposition, then distancing from communism... (crossed out, sorry laughing ) "communal apartment" "human anthill". Concentration of attention and efforts on the development of "your own household" and increasing the well-being of your family (well, just some kind of "fists", mother of them recourse), and from there it's not far to liberal values. Do we really need it? laughing hi
      1. +12
        28 December 2024 10: 19
        Quote: Adrey
        if not opposition, then distancing from the communist... (crossed out, sorry) "communal apartment" "anthill". Concentration of attention and efforts on developing "one's own household" and increasing the well-being of one's family (well, just some kind of "fists", mother of them

        In fact, according to the post-war housing construction program approved by Comrade Stalin, the main emphasis was placed on the construction of individual housing, with the allocation (FREE!) of land plots for construction, the issuance of a state loan and the issuance of building materials to developers at a fixed state price. There were also benefits and the write-off of part of the amounts lent by the state for the birth of children, but I don’t remember with which child this began. And the housing standards according to Stalin, and the building standards for multi-story urban housing construction were ... different. Very high ceilings (there should be a lot of air, large rooms, a large kitchen ... Then they thought about people and the QUALITY OF LIFE of all citizens ... under Khrushchev, everything was reduced to panel cells, small apartments, tiny kitchens, low ceilings of 2,5 m.
        So the topic raised is correct, both for the quality of life, and for survival in the event of a cataclysm, and for families with many children. There is a lot of land in the country, construction companies as well as cockroaches, and the state has money.
        High housing prices?
        And who got them into trouble? And have you tried to use state regulation of profit rates?
        So, where should officials steal from then?
        So maybe the officials are not the right ones?
        Maybe our state does need an Ideology? A positive, life-affirming, forward-looking one? Putting first the care of each member of Society - a full-fledged member of the Solidary Society of the Human Type. Where collectivism and mutual assistance, mutual aid, protection of the weak, care for the elderly, education of the younger generations as builders of the Bright Future of their Country, education of future Defenders of the Motherland, Creators and engines of Progress - Science, Culture, Technology are instilled from childhood. The creation of such a Society, looking at which everyone who did not dare to do this would envy... as it already was... With us... In Our very recent History.
        Then, upon hearing the news of Mobilization, young men would not rush headlong to "storm Upper Lars", but would calmly and businesslike wait for a summons from the Military Registration and Enlistment Office, or would go there themselves as volunteers... As it already WAS in our previous - Best History. Where military service in the Army was mandatory for all Men, because every man is a Warrior, a Defender. Through which almost without exception all the guys went... and returned after service as established young men, with an acquired military profession, skills, life experience and social adaptation.
        and what these ... privatizers of the National, All-National Property have done to the Country ... we all see now. The War came, and they stole everything ... as soon as they took it out at the grassroots level of national unity and self-organization ... at the people's collections\funds they equipped the fighters, drones, sights, heat pads, socks, underpants ... and the thieves of the Ministry of Defense, although they were removed (in the third year of the war!!!), were not imprisoned, criminal cases were only for some minor ones ... and not a single guilty verdict ... The Untouchable Caste ... Only in a caste society were the very scum of the caste society called untouchables, who could not even be touched, like lepers.
        Maybe these untouchables are driving the population into human anthills for this very reason? To make it more convenient? Easier? To waste less ammunition for the "esteemed partners"? Maybe Serdkov carried out/implemented his reform for this very reason? When he decided to place the entire Aviation at "five large, but well-equipped air bases"? When he closed the Military Academies? Military universities/schools? And he didn't conduct recruitment in the remaining 5 years? Just to time it right, so that the Army would be deprived of its command staff during deployment? So there is nothing to guess/discuss here, everything has already been done for us - the untouchables have already prepared everything and are now quietly rejoicing in anticipation of the final chord. Annushka has already spilled the oil.
        Quote: Adrey
        Do we really need it?

        Commune (from where both communal economy and communism come from) - Solidarity Society of Free (!) People. There can be no slaves in a commune, slaves do not create communes. Slave is a status. Especially if accepted by a person voluntarily - a sentence and self-curse. Whether it is a slave of some god (and why does god need slaves, and what kind of "god" is this then, that he needs slaves) or a slave in the galleys ... Slave is a Status.
        And a slave always has a master. As a rule, an unkind one with bad intentions. Like that "good shepherd" for the Sheep, who was afraid of the wolf all her life... and the Shepherd ate her.
        And in the Soviet School, when fighting illiteracy, they wrote on the board in large letters: "We are not slaves! We are not slaves!!" Thus, the citizens of the Soviet Union renounced the damned past and the slave status imposed on them.
        That's why we were happy later.
        1. -4
          28 December 2024 11: 32
          Quote: bayard
          Maybe our state does need an Ideology? A positive, life-affirming, forward-looking one? Putting first the care of each member of Society - a full-fledged member of the Solidary Society of the Human Type. Where collectivism and mutual assistance, mutual aid, protection of the weak, care for the elderly, education of the younger generations as builders of the Bright Future of their Country, education of future Defenders of the Motherland, Creators and engines of Progress - Science, Culture, Technology are instilled from childhood. The creation of such a Society, looking at which everyone who did not dare to do this would envy... as it already was... With us... In Our very recent History.

          Quote: bayard
          That's why we were happy later

          A happy, fabulously happy state, happy people. But where is it? What happened to it? And who did it? If not those happy people who
          Quote: bayard
          Where military service was mandatory for all men, because every man is a warrior, Defender

          then where were they at that moment? What were they doing?
          1. +7
            28 December 2024 12: 53
            Quote: Adrey
            . But where is it? What happened to it?

            He was killed.
            Quote: Adrey
            And who did it?

            Enemies. Those same Enemies of the People who unleashed state terror against Stalin's will (he twice asked to re-vote on this resolution introduced by Khrushchev) in 1937, and which Stalin managed to stop with such difficulty in the fall of 1938, by appointing L.P. Beria as head of the NKVD. Who immediately established a commission to review cases and convictions. And the review was thorough, many were saved, including the future Marshal Rokossovsky. They didn't have time to do it for my great-uncle - they shot him on the day of his arrest, covering up the traces of their conspiracy ... they starved his wife to death in the camps ... the daughter - to an orphanage.
            Quote: Adrey
            who did this?

            Trotskyists. That's how this term caught on later. Although Enemies of the People is a much more precise and capacious term. But the name of their leader and inspirer will do, too.
            Quote: Adrey
            every man is a warrior, a defender
            then where were they at that moment? What were they doing?

            They were betrayed and deceived by the top leadership of the degenerated party elite... already renamed by the Trotskyists of the VKPb party into the faceless CPSU. The Trotskyists of the USSR leadership and the KGB are their instrument and communicator.
            Quote: Adrey
            What they were doing?

            We looked at what was happening in amazement and could not even imagine that we would end up like this.
            They've reached the end. The Trotskyists were notorious thugs.
            Quote: Adrey
            those happy people who

            The enemies seized power immediately after ... Stalin's death. But they seized it completely only in 1955, when Khrushch seized power completely, liquidated the Government of the USSR, the State Planning Committee (later restored), all industry ministries. He destroyed, taking away from the people (shareholders) all production cooperatives, sharply reduced the standard of living (disposable income) of Soviet citizens with his malicious monetary reform, changed the wage scales downwards, driving entire categories and professions into poverty ... This beetle-pests did a lot. Some things were restored after his removal, but not everything and not in full. And the main thing is the STAFF placed by him and his clique. Who waited for their time for another 20 years, when generations would change, veterans-front-line soldiers would leave power and the "Pepsi Generation" would grow up. By that time, all power was already in their hands and they succeeded.
            But while they were preparing to destroy our State and were waiting for their turn, people lived. Not as richly and beautifully as they could and should have, but still it was a Solidary Society of the Human type, where people felt free and safe, where children played in the street all day long, and parents were not afraid that something would happen to them. Where crimes were rare, and the school brought up a Creative Man, gave not "knowledge for money" as a service without education, but namely Educated, instilled in the younger generation all that is most correct and useful. And on TV there was no pornography, no cruelty and violence, no propaganda of greed and happiness to avoid responsibility for a crime. It was the most Reading country in the world. With the best Education System in this World.
            Quote: Adrey
            where is it?

            Everything was stolen, gobbled up, privatized and mastered by the Enemies. Now they are in power, now they are the "Owners of Russia". Everything is like under Nicholas II. Everything is the same as before... until the Ipatiev House and the fall of the Empire... what kind of "empire" do these people have... just a colony... Now it is a bit rowdy, rebellious, but it fulfills its obligations and delivers what is necessary.
            A slave is not just a status, it is a Destiny.
        2. +2
          28 December 2024 17: 03
          Thank you bayard for your comment! Right on the mark.
        3. +1
          30 December 2024 11: 32
          I would add about slaves. Orthodoxy is being intensively imposed now. And what does every prayer begin with? "We, the slaves of God..." And some activists in black clothes even explain why "one must be a slave"... Black clothes seem to hint at their status as overseers... Only not of bodies, but what is more terrible - of souls...
          1. +1
            30 December 2024 12: 42
            Quote: futurohunter
            Orthodoxy is being intensively imposed now. And what does every prayer begin with? "We, the servants of God..."

            Do you know what words begin the most important church service of this egregor? Liturgy?
            "As Israel walked on dry land
            Stepping into the abyss
            Seeing the Pharaoh's tormentor drowned
            Let us sing a song of victory to God, we cry out
            (and as befits SLAVES)
            "Have mercy on me, God, have mercy on me...".
            Only the Condemned Slave asks for pardon.
            Quote: futurohunter
            the figures in black clothes also explain why "one must be a slave"

            Yes This is their main task. According to their own book scriptures, "You will be fishers of human souls"!!!
            Quote: futurohunter
            The black clothes seem to hint at their status as guards... Only not of bodies, but what is more terrible - of souls...

            There it is even more terrible. This is not just a religion that imposes a slave status on its adherents, it is also a religion of SACRIFICE. And not a sacrifice of seeds, fruits and human handiwork, not an animal sacrifice (which is already disgusting), and not even a human sacrifice (!! which is practiced by a number of closed cults), but ... a sacrifice of a certain God, whose symbol is the Circle, which is depicted and filled with prosphora. And what do they do with the "bread doll" of this god at the proskomedia ... what words do they pronounce ... how they then drink his blood and eat his flesh, and feed their flock (sheep and rams in human form). And all the adherents gathered in the temple at this time shout at the top of their lungs "Receive the Body of Christ, taste the source of immortality" ... That is, there was a devouring not even of a person... but of some God. Yes, in a substituted form, but it is like a sorcerer casting spells over a doll - rag, clay, dough (that's where it is), wax, sticking in needles, knitting needles or a knife, pronouncing spells... That's roughly the same thing, only even more terrifying, that happens at the proskomedia. First they torture, and then they cut into pieces and eat some God. And they call it a Sacrament.
            What God are they trying so hard against?
            And it doesn’t matter what kind of confusing tale they tell in their defense that “it’s necessary.”
            The only thing that matters is WHAT THEY DO.
            And there, to the accompaniment of collective singing, they Torture, then Kill, and then Devour... God.
            And whose servants are these then?
            It doesn’t matter what they call themselves (shepherds, i.e. overseers), what matters is WHAT THEY DO.
            And this is indeed a very strong magic of enslavement... of free People - by god-fighters... god-eaters.
            This is some trash accompanied by harmonious chants.
            Well, all the symbolism is imbued with death, suffering and murder.
            How could one believe in such a thing without Morok... see, hear, but not understand the meaning of what is happening...
            It was from this darkness that the Soviet Power saved the Russian People and all the peoples of Russia, by banning obscurantism and separating the church from the state. Giving all the peoples of the world an alternative - the Bright Path of Creation, Freedom, Peace, Goodness and Progress. hi
            1. 0
              30 December 2024 19: 48
              Well, personally, I was repulsed by the church with all its priests. And, from my observations, specifically the Orthodox one. I will never forget how I went into the church in the winter wearing a hat, from the cold. And then some activist knocked it off my head. Who are you anyway? Who gave you the right to be so rude?
              By the way, why is there an article about insulting the feelings of believers, but not about insulting the feelings of non-believers?
              In my opinion, there is some kind of spirit of death, inanimate, beyond the grave in the church...
              I remember visiting churches in Montenegro... I had the opportunity to compare. The oldest Catholic cathedral in Europe - over 1000 years old. Yes, instead of a bell, it's as if they were striking a rail. And it's not clear at what time, and how many times. But it's comfortable inside. Quiet. Fresh air. Light coolness. I sat down on a bench. I didn't even want to go anywhere... After that, I went into an Orthodox church. I almost suffocated - they filled me with smoke and burned up all the oxygen. The atmosphere is heavy - the walls are pressing. I couldn't even dream of benches in my worst nightmare. No, I'm not a Westerner. But why is it like that? Why do they care about people, but in our church, people are just a "flock", a herd?
              But 500 years ago in Rus' people were publicly flogged if they didn't go to church! There were monastery prisons that were not subject to secular authorities! And ordinary "laymen" sat in them!
              These are just completely brazen bandits in cassocks! And how many churches were built with criminal money! And where are the most "believers"? In prisons! First they rob and kill, and then "it's a pity for the bird"!
              1. 0
                30 December 2024 21: 17
                Quote: futurohunter
                But 500 years ago in Rus' a person was publicly flogged if he did not go to church!

                It was even worse in the West. Just look at the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. But all this "Uncle Remus Tales" is simply more effort in the so-called Para-Orthodox Church to intoxicate - nard is more persistent, naturally drawn to Truth and Justice, intuitively senses Falsehood, so they fumigate it with incense 3-4 times per service, and the services are many times longer than Catholic ones. Buy incense in a church shop and take it to a drug lab for testing, you will be very surprised by the result - it is opium on cedar resin. That is why lightness and joy, especially in old people and the sick, appear after fumigation - the pain goes away, lightness appears. Have you heard the expression "breathing on incense"? A dying person was fumigated with incense so that he would pass away without severe torment.
                Quote: futurohunter
                Catholic Cathedral - more than 1000 years old.

                Yes, the age is a lie. Have you ever thought about the nature and etymology of the name of this "church"? Why "Catholic"?
                What does the word CAT mean?
                Executioner, torturer, torturer. Surprised? Wait a little longer.
                Do you know why Catholics call a church a catholic church?
                Have you heard anything about the very first "cathedrals" made of human bones? Absolutely everything there was made of human bones... and the bones... were boiled.\ they were heat treated and analyzed. And this is considered "normal" among them. And there are many such "cathedrals" in Western Europe, people go there like to a museum for fun. Each one is made of hundreds of thousands of human skeletons, and some creepy, inhuman designer worked on it. Others (like in the Paris catacombs) were made of several million human skeletons... chandeliers made of skulls, ribs, everything was so artistic, there was a lot of material... There are some on the Internet, google it, maybe then the charm of Catholicism (murder, torture) will subside. A person feels better in such old buildings for another reason - the architecture there is special.
                And Catholic services are short, simple, uncomplicated simply because for a Western person there is no special effort to control it. request not required. He is as simple as a nickel, why do they even call Germans robots? Because they are so easy to manipulate. So why be sophisticated? For Russia and a number of other Slavic countries, everything is different - there a fairy tale is needed, a lie must be sophisticated, more opium, longer service, stricter rules and mandatory state propaganda and obligation. In the Russian Empire, the church was given state functions of accounting, control and registration of the population - like a modern registry office and even more. The church did not pay taxes, the state paid salaries to priests, allocated land ... The Bolsheviks first of all separated the church from the state and removed all benefits, took away the functions of accounting and control of civil status and, like any enterprise (after all, it conducts activities/trade, receives income), the most ordinary taxes ... And - that's it. Previously, the state strictly held people accountable for not attending church, for regular confession and communion, but when the obligation disappeared, people stopped going there... and the priests who remained without a salary began to suffer from the offerings. The Soviet Government did not need their services and... churches began to go bankrupt, close, priests to leave the state... to socialize. Some even (but this is in the provinces) began to organize gangs, rob, kill... there were several high-profile well-known cases. The film "Born by the Revolution" (about the history of the Soviet Militia) was filmed using archival materials, one such case of a priest-ataman is shown there. Many ministers of the cult were drawn to the White Guard, in the hope of returning "everything as before".
                But the Soviet Government began to open Schools, teach children (and adults too) to read and write in huge letters on the board with soap the Vow of Renunciation of Obscurantism: "We are not slaves! Slaves - not us!". Thus the USSR became the most well-read country in the World, with the best Education System in the World, advanced Science, a country of advanced Technical Achievements. It defeated internal and external enemies, created the Fairest State on our Planet ... And then they killed it. Enemies. And the "gentlemen" - robbers, thieves, crooks and Obscurantists returned. And everything became like under Nikolai-2 again. Irresponsibility, Impunity, Untouchability. And the current government cannot do without the Obscurantists.
                1. 0
                  30 December 2024 21: 35
                  Let me correct you a little. It was Lenin who said: "Religion is the opium of the people." Frankincense contains cannabinoids - psychoactive substances similar to those in hashish, hemp, etc.
                  In short, "I went to church and smoked some weed."
                  But still, why do non-Orthodox churches (even in Egypt) care about people, but in the Orthodox church they treat people like cattle? Well, it's clear with us, but why is it like that with them?
                  1. 0
                    30 December 2024 21: 46
                    Quote: futurohunter
                    But still, why do non-Orthodox churches (even in Egypt) care about people, but in the Orthodox church they are treated like cattle?

                    There are robots there anyway, you seat them, rattle off for 15 minutes and go home - the job is done. But with us, with people who want Justice and Truth... you have to work, that's why there are so many efforts, and no chairs, no benches - so that they can stand and Listen and Attend. Three hours - a full liturgy for the laity and five (!!) hours in monasteries. Those who want Truth and Justice - stand, listen, breathe. And then MAYBE you will be "saved".
                    Quote: futurohunter
                    Why do they do it like this?

                    But these people don't need anything like that.
                2. +1
                  30 December 2024 21: 36
                  I will add that our people understood everything even before the Revolution. Priests were called bloodsuckers. And Pushkin wrote down the fairy tale "About the priest and his worker Balda" from folk words. "From the first click the priest jumped up to the ceiling..."
                3. +1
                  1 January 2025 18: 49
                  Zadornovism in its purest form.
                  Kastel comes from kastel - castle, since both churches and monasteries were built as fortified structures in the Middle Ages.
                  The Catholic Church does not come from the Catholic Church, but from the Greek word meaning universal church.
                  And everything else in your crap is of the same quality.
                  1. 0
                    1 January 2025 23: 25
                    Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                    Castle from castle - castle

                    Wall-mounted? Or recessed?
                    What does a prayer house and a stone fortress have to do with it?
                    And the simplest question: have you, young man, seen their bone churches? Search in a search engine, admire the work of the "designers", think about where millions of bones came from for such a grandiose construction.
                    Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                    The Catholic Church is not from the words "cats" but from the Greek word

                    Maybe then, straining your brain, you will remember that there was such a people in Europe once - the CATARS. And they lived all over Europe in fortresses in garrisons. Also from a Greek word? Aren't there too many "Greeks"? Have you seen that Greece?
                    Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                    from the Greek word meaning universal church.

                    There is no such word in Greek or in "ancient Greek". There is a similar word, but it has a completely different consonant, and this whole "history" is like an owl on the globe of Ukraine.
                    Quote: Kitun Evgeniy
                    Zadornovshchina

                    Much worse. Zadornov at least tried to get to the truth... but he only dug into the books of "historians"... who simply made up these books - uncomplicatedly and from the Lantern, like a Fairy Tale. In it are "worldwide Catholics", and "orthodox Catholics", and other heresies, fantasies and... fellow mi-ra-de-sa!! laughing fool An ordinary, not very old - Fairy tale. With a very unkind motivation and content. Pushkin's fairy tales were more interesting.
                    1. 0
                      2 January 2025 13: 46
                      Because all these prayer houses were essentially fortresses. The population took refuge in them during attacks.
                      There were plenty of bones in the dungeons, where corpses were stored for a long time, until the concept changed and they began to bury them.
                      The Cathars are not a people at all, they are Christian heretics. Or do you think that the Baptists are also a people?
                      The word exists, and the meaning there is quite clear for the time when it began to be used to name a branch of Christianity.
                      1. 0
                        2 January 2025 18: 06
                        Not long ago, they started repairs with replacement of heating in the Trinity Lavra of St. Sergius, they wanted to undermine the wall, but it doesn’t end, they dug a trench three or four stories deep, and there were already pieces of the old marble cladding, and ancient figures in tunics and naked, elements of marble decor, they raised all this outside, and then they got scared and cordoned everything off - all the buildings turned out to be just the tops of rather tall multi-story buildings of ornate architecture with marble cladding and the remains of full-fledged communications ... And who composed that history that was taught in schools? I saw it with my own eyes, there is footage from the locations. And absolutely no Christian symbolism. No obscurantism. Only high technology and high Culture.
                        I know written history well, but it doesn’t fit with the facts/artifacts.
                      2. 0
                        2 January 2025 18: 10
                        Photo studio. With antique statues)
                      3. 0
                        2 January 2025 18: 15
                        There is a channel called "Chairman of SNT" he has a whole episode about this, where he walks around these excavations and among marble scrap with pieces of statues, he will film. There were other materials, but I don't remember who. In my Lavra (in the Theological Academy) a student studied at the Regent School.
        4. -2
          31 December 2024 10: 34
          Quote: bayard
          Very high ceilings (there should be a lot of air, large rooms, a large kitchen... Then they thought about people and the QUALITY OF LIFE of all citizens... under Khrushchev everything was reduced to panel cells, small apartments, tiny kitchens, low ceilings of 2,5 m.

          But here's the thing: with the high ceilings, the need for housing - not even the general one!! - but the annual one - was only covered by 1/6.
          And it turned out that, given the current rate of population growth, the need for housing will never be satisfied, and the waiting list will stretch for 10-12 years.
          And there was NSH FORCED abandon Stalin's Empire style with its columns
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 15: 11
            Quote: your1970
            But here's the thing: with the high ceilings, the need for housing - not even the general one!! - but the annual one - was only covered by 1/6.

            And Stalin's housing construction programs should not have been closed. Then the emphasis was on individual housing, including to stimulate the birth rate. In addition, the pace of development of the construction industry was constantly increasing, under Khrushchev a number of areas were closed, and the French technology of large-panel housing construction, designed for the Mediterranean climate, was taken as a basis. But Khrushchev didn't give a damn, as long as the quality was worse. The allocation of plots for individual construction was curtailed and they began to build God knows what with a resource of 40-50 years at most, with mandatory major repairs after 25 years. WHAT was that? They threw a lot of time/money/resources down the drain, settled people in concrete cages, which often, while they were still alive, were to be torn down due to dilapidation??
            Why was the production of high-quality bricks using low-cement technology curtailed? Including facing bricks? So that people could build houses that were as scary, cold, and uncomfortable as possible? And what about the housing standards per family member? The same ones from the minimum standards for European prisons? Who came up with this?
            Or is Stalin again to blame for the "galoshes"?
            What do you know about Stalin's Economy? Most citizens had to live in their own homes! Land was allocated for this, all communications were installed, interest-free loans were issued and building materials were ordered at state prices. A person could build either himself or hire a construction team. And salaries were much, sometimes many times higher than under Khrushchev. Khrushchev simply mocked people after Stalin, cutting their salaries, banning freedom of enterprise, piecework wages were abolished almost everywhere, he tied up and killed all entrepreneurial initiative, created a monstrous deficit of consumer goods, which even his successors did not overcome.
            Quote: your1970
            And the NSH was FORCED to abandon the Stalinist Empire style with its columns

            On Khrushch's orders. Well, Khrushch didn't like people or Beauty - a Trotskyist and that same mole of British intelligence. Recruited by MI6 in 1943, before that he worked for German intelligence through Trotsky's network, they re-recruited him through his father - a former Polish land magnate, who was then living in London. And they held this ghoul by the gills with compromising evidence FIRMLY. And when he tried to kick up a fuss, they tried twice to blow up the cruiser on which he first arrived to England, and then to Indonesia. After the second time, he got so scared that he immediately fulfilled all the demands, abandoned the newest warships in Indonesia - supposedly as a gift, without training, evacuating the crews by planes ... My godfather's stepfather served on that ship at the time, he told some details of those hysterics. He immediately gave the Kwantung fortified area with our bases to China, although according to the lease agreements we were supposed to be there for a long time... And he ordered a two-seater MiG-25 and an ejection seat with a toilet for escaping from Moscow in case of WWI. Of course, he set this up for the People...
            And what's wrong with Stalin's Empire style? The most beautiful buildings still adorn our cities, and we're not ashamed of them... unlike Khrushchev's legacy.
            1. -2
              31 December 2024 15: 22
              Quote: bayard
              There was no need to close Stalin's housing construction programs.

              slowly - under Stalin's programs - 1/6 of the annual housing requirement,
              During Khrushchev's time, it reached 100% in some years.
              If it weren't for the NSH, one of the main arguments of Sovietophiles today - "They gave us a free apartment!!" - would have gone to waste - the 2-year queue under the NSH would have automatically become 12 years under Stalin's program.
              And the people had to be shut up - otherwise they would start getting nervous and arranging a Novocherkassky
              Quote: bayard
              The majority of citizens were supposed to live in their own homes! Land was allocated for this, all communications were provided, interest-free loans were issued and building materials were ordered at state prices.

              в which place?
              and in the Zavolzhye Saratov region sheet glass became available only in the early 1960s.
              Simultaneously with electrification, and water pipes in the 1970s, and gas since 1997 belay
              Where did they connect the communications? In Moscow, in Kuntsevo or in Peredelkino?

              Quote: bayard
              Khrushchev after Stalin simply mocked people,
              - the same thing again. Either Trotsky harmed the Soviet power, or Khrushchev, or Andropov - there is no way the Soviet power could and/or did not know how without saboteurs at the helm.
              1. 0
                31 December 2024 23: 07
                Quote: your1970
                slowly - under Stalin's programs - 1/6 of the annual housing requirement,

                Are you comparing a spherical horse in a vacuum? Before the war, two five-year plans were devoted to industrialization, the third was supposed to solve housing construction issues, but then the war happened. After the war, the country was raised from ruins, cities, industries, and infrastructure were restored. By the beginning of the 3s, they got around to solving the housing issue, the program provided for ... what I described above. After Stalin's death, Khrushchev curtailed all these programs. And a few years later, when the housing problems began to mount, he began to act strangely with panel houses.
                Quote: your1970
                The 2-year queue under the NSH would have automatically become 12 years under Stalin’s program.

                I wouldn't. Most of those in need of housing received plots of land, money and materials for construction. Construction teams built quickly and efficiently. So most of the queue was excluded for this very reason. But in the cities, plans for city development were drawn up. BEAUTIFUL houses, with large and bright apartments.
                Quote: your1970
                and in the Zavolzhye Saratov region sheet glass became available only in the early 1960s.

                Do you know what year Khrushch abolished the State Planning Committee? My friend's father worked there at the time and told me that Khrushch also stopped collecting reparations from Germany. And they built so many factories for us at that time, both under the Communist Party and for money. Meat-packing plants alone, as many as in the whole country. And glass factories, too. So without Khrushch, and under the State Planning Committee, glass would have appeared even earlier in the Saratov region. What can we say about a country without a government and industry ministries!! This ghoul established economic councils to organize party management of the country and the economy. And immediately there was a collapse and implosion of consumer goods production, which only deepened. With such management, if he had not been removed, you would not have seen glass in your Trans-Volga Saratov region until the 70s.
                Quote: your1970
                Where did they connect the communications? In Moscow, in Kuntsevo or in Peredelkino?

                Everywhere. Because individual construction was then being developed all over the country. Electricity, running water with water columns were supplied to the plots. Heating was by stove, amenities were outside or as the developer determined. Back then, this was also a blessing, people were not spoiled, but it was much better than unauthorized construction with its ordeals. Here, the state took on all the organization - to supply roads, the above-mentioned communications, sometimes gas, where possible.
                Quote: your1970
                in Moscow in Kuntsevo or in Peredelkino?

                In the Southern Urals, Chelyabinsk region.
                And how much did the German prisoners build all over the country... A LOT. And quite well. And what kind of parks did they build then, what kind of city planning. Stadiums, skating rinks, hockey rinks in the courtyards. While the state allowed and helped, people preferred to build their own houses. But they were forbidden. Khrushchev.
                Quote: your1970
                twenty-five again. Either Trotsky harmed the Soviet power, or Khrushchev,

                So Khrushch, an old Trotskyist from the Civil War until Davidych's expulsion from the USSR, was obvious, openly professed the stupidity of permanent revolution and "Russia as a bundle of brushwood in the fire of this revolution." Then he professed it secretly, but actively. It was he who put forward the proposal to carry out purges in 1937-1938. And the greatest number of death sentences of that period were handed down by the "troika" headed by him. That was how "remarkable" this sv0L04 was.
                Quote: your1970
                then Andropov

                Andropov is a cousin of Sverdlov and Yagoda, a nephew of the main Moscow jeweler. A personality, like Khrushch, extremely legendary, with a falsified biography. All these forgeries and the true origin of this pepper were revealed more than once even in the Komsomol years, several times they were going to expel him from the Komsomol. But he was always covered up. All of the above were agents of the same residency, and even before the revolution such were introduced into revolutionary parties and movements beyond all measure.
                Quote: your1970
                There is no way that Soviet power could and/or did not know how to exist without saboteurs at the helm.

                The tsarist and bourgeois regimes were even worse off. What heights the USSR reached even under the wreckers, how many wars and confrontations it won in such a short period... The little tsars and bourgeois are increasingly famous for the wars they lost, the plundering of treasuries, and the shame of our fatherland. Our land has had very little luck with its little tsars and bourgeois guards. Almost without exception, they are incompetent, lazy, embezzlers, and loafers. Look how many airplanes they built - 0 by 1100... in promises from Manturov, who is unaccountable, irreplaceable, and absolutely irresponsible by definition. It will get even more fun from here. Like under Nikolai-2030 - all the way to the Ipatiev House. They are so goal-oriented in the "golden age" - they will take you all the way to the basement.
                If they don't come to their senses.
                But is there anything to think about?
                1. -2
                  1 January 2025 01: 58
                  Well, it's clear - everything would be great and great if it weren't for 5 (FIVE!)General Secretaries are a bunch of traitors and turncoats.
                  That is, despite all the praise, the system is unviable because only scoundrels and scoundrels get to the top.

                  I have indicated the deadlines for connecting communications...
                  1. +1
                    1 January 2025 07: 38
                    Quote: your1970
                    The system is unviable because only scoundrels and scoundrels get to the top.

                    And who gets "to the top" under a monarchy and oligarchic democracy? Are there any better examples? The Russian Federation?? How do you rate the quality of public administration in the Russian Federation? The affordability of housing for young families? The national question? The personal safety of citizens? The state of industry? Science? Aircraft manufacturing? Automotive manufacturing? Machine tool manufacturing? Shipbuilding? The level of real inflation? The quality of work of law enforcement agencies? The level of the country's defense capability and the combat readiness of the Army? The level of dependence of our industry on supplies of components from abroad? The authority of the Russian Federation? The work of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs? How many millions of migrants with a criminal and terrorist past did the Soviet Union accept on its territory per year? And how many did the Russian Federation accept? How was the situation with the safety of citizens? Can you compare the level of defense capability? Did anyone dare to encroach on the territory of the USSR? To seize and hold its territories? Can you compare the level of competence of Manturov and at least ... Malenkov?
                    I live in Donetsk in a house built/restored under Stalin, the ceilings in my apartment are more than 4 m high.

                    Quote: your1970
                    The timing of the communications connection - I have indicated...

                    The timeframes were different. At that time (post-war) there was not enough power generation, but electricity was supplied to everyone. Can you tell me until what year they cleared the ruins of cities in Germany? Italy? When food cards were abolished in England? In the USSR they managed to restore the country faster, although half of the European part of our country lay in ruins.
                    Maybe you want to compare with the periods of the tsars? How many people died in the Russian Empire from regular hunger? How was it in your Saratov province under the tsars? I know exactly how, I have a friend who lives there - in Engels, and his roots are from there. And I know what the Trans-Volga steppes are like.
                    1. -2
                      1 January 2025 21: 00
                      Quote: bayard
                      but electricity was supplied to everyone.
                      -I will repeat
                      Quote: your1970
                      otherwise in Zavolzhye Saratov sheet glass can only be obtained at the beginning 1960x.-Simultaneously with electrification,


                      Quote: bayard
                      When were food rationing abolished in England?
                      - So you don’t understand that the abolition of cards has hit the population?
                      Since you don't know, the price of food on the cards was fixed PRE-WAR(cereals within 1 ruble, for example).
                      And with the abolition of cards came two troubles:
                      1) the cost of food has risen sharply
                      2) with cards, store directors reported both in money and cards - that is, a store, for example, could not simply sell 100 kg of sugar. A shortage of cards is an article of the Criminal Code, even if the money was available.
                      And when the ration cards were cancelled, all the products were bought up by the market traders who had forked out a small share and taken out of the stores completely. The store directors presented the money down to the last kopeck and said, "The population bought everything up!!" The prices at the markets danced from 10 to 30 times the state prices... And the people howled - and reports from the localities went up...
                      And it was necessary to urgently carry out a monetary reform, reduce food prices, and conduct punitive raids on trade - but it didn’t help much.

                      ss
                      Quote: bayard
                      How many millions of migrants with criminal and terrorist backgrounds did the Soviet Union accept into its territory each year?

                      I noticed a very interesting thing: all supporters of the USSR are sharply against migrants. Friendship of peoples - no, we don't know. lol, the USSR is good - but without the Central Asian region and the Caucasus....
                      But the migrants are those Kazakhs, Tajiks and Uzbeks whom the USSR resettled across the territory of the USSR by force, including removal through the army, guards and prisons.
                      We have Kurds (!!!) - yes, those same ones - they were brought in in 1970. Gypsies, compared to them, are Germans with an order
                      1. 0
                        2 January 2025 00: 14
                        Quote: your1970
                        Quote: bayard
                        but electricity was supplied to everyone - I repeat

                        And who dragged you to such a remote place? You might as well have wandered into Taiga and complained from there that they didn't build you a warm toilet.
                        In order for window glass and electricity to appear, glass factories and power plants had to be BUILT first. And they were built. Only under Stalin as reparations for what had been done, and under Khrushchev at their own expense and already without the State Planning Committee.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Don't you understand that the abolition of cards has hit the population?

                        The abolition of rationing abolished wartime rationing and normalized trade.
                        Quote: your1970
                        1) the cost of food has risen sharply

                        There were state prices in the country, and speculators were fought. And how do you think speculative prices on the market are compatible with "totalitarianism" and "state over-organization"? Maybe it was the other way around - in Stalin's Economy the state sector of the economy and freedom of entrepreneurship of citizens were harmoniously combined? But at the same time with state regulation and planning.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And when the rationing was cancelled, all the products were bought up by the market traders who had paid a small share and taken out of the stores completely.

                        Wow. And you weren't afraid of "Stalin's terror"??
                        The transition from a military economy to a peaceful life always leads to temporary imbalances until everything is regulated. And the difficulties of the post-war period were in all the warring countries, with the exception of the USA, on whose territory the BD was not conducted. But even there it was not without a strong shake-up of the entire economy.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And it was necessary to urgently carry out a monetary reform, reduce food prices, and conduct punitive raids on trade - but it didn’t help much.

                        This is the fight against speculation and concern for citizens. And prices in the post-war USSR were constantly falling, as the economy was recovering, right up until Stalin's death. Under Khrushchev they only rose. With wages falling.
                        Quote: your1970
                        I noticed a very interesting thing: all supporters of the USSR are sharply against migrants. Friendship of peoples - no, we don't know.

                        You can be friends with houses, families, countries and peoples. But there was no organized import of savages into Russian cities in the USSR.
                        Quote: your1970
                        USSR is good - but without Central Asia and the Caucasus...

                        It is difficult for the Middle Ages to fit into Civilization. But they tried to pull them up to an acceptable level - they taught, treated, educated, created infrastructure and jobs there - in the national republics. And if there was such migration, then it was on an insignificant scale and within the framework of a single country. There was no hint of rampant crime then.
                        Quote: your1970
                        We have Kurds (!!!) - yes, those same ones - they were brought in in 1970.

                        Are you talking about Barzani's group? Well, they were taken out little by little, but with a completely different aim. My friend was friends with Barzani.
                        Quote: your1970
                        .Gypsies against their background are Germans with an ordnung

                        Of course - savages as they are. When I told my friend the story of the appearance of this people according to the Avesta ... oh, he laughed ... "Uneaten". This is from the story of Zakhaki.
                        Quote: your1970
                        .Friendship of Nations

                        This is a good thing. When nations are friends. Friends, but do not mix. Especially when savages do not break the cultural code of Civilization.
                      2. -2
                        2 January 2025 17: 43
                        Quote: bayard
                        And who dragged you to such a remote place? You might as well have wandered into Taiga and complained from there that they didn't build you a warm toilet.

                        slowly - it's only 1000 km from Moscow, not 3-5 km. With its own hydroelectric power station built in 000 - electrification of the region from 1956 to 10 years - well, normal. This fits right into your:
                        Quote: bayard
                        Land was allocated for this, all communications were installed, interest-free loans were issued and building materials were ordered at state prices.

                        I wrote about building materials and plumbing above.

                        Quote: bayard
                        But there was no organized import of savages into Russian cities in the USSR.
                        - No need to lie!!!
                        I repeat - if you didn't see it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Kazakhs, Tajiks and Uzbeks whom the USSR resettled across the territory of the USSR by force, including removal through the army, guards and prisons.

                        Where do 3 Moldovan streets in my village come from?
                        Where did the 4 Kazakhs come from? Well, okay, these are ours, locals?
                        Where does 2 Georgian come from?
                        Where does 1 Armenian come from?
                        Where do 3 branches of collective farms come from - completely Dagestani?
                        and this is all the 1970s and an ordinary regional center of the Saratov region.....
                        We have 4 Kyrgyz left in the training camp near Gorky (Inzhenerny settlement) to serve as crickets - with their wives...
                        The USSR did everything to mix people within the country

                        Quote: bayard
                        Are you talking about Barzani's group? Well, they were taken out little by little, but with a completely different aim. My friend was friends with Barzani.
                        -No, I mean Conventional Kurds who have lived with us since the 1970s. Several branches of collective and state farms - completely them. They drove everyone out instantly. Kazakh taxi drivers still fight them to the death
                      3. 0
                        2 January 2025 19: 05
                        Quote: your1970
                        If you didn't see it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

                        If it was not conspicuous, did not explode society, did not create a criminal situation, then it is:
                        1) It was of limited scope.
                        2) It was not in the cities, but in remote settlements. Beyond the Volga there is a semi-desert turning into a desert, only after the war in the 50s, under the program for the development of virgin and fallow lands, on Komsomol vouchers, did they begin to bring young people. Including from the union republics. You did not notice that you are listing for me citizens of ONE single state. Except for the Kurds of course, although they were also found in Transcaucasia.
                        Quote: your1970
                        I'm talking about ordinary Kurds who have been living with us since the 1970s.

                        Well, then they were taken out of Turkey, where they were slaughtering the Turks, from the PKK. The USSR sponsored them for a while, supported them, shook Turkey as a NATO member, so it couldn’t abandon them. And the head of this Kurdish community was Barzani. The KGB kept an eye on them. Then there was no one left. But they brought in a few.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - it's only 1000 km from Moscow, not 3-5 km.

                        Well, I was born 2000 km from Moscow in the Southern Urals. My grandfather was a forester, and lived near the forestry when he retired. In the mid-60s, he built himself a house (wooden, with stove heating), a well with a "crane" in the garden, electricity was connected immediately, but there were consumption standards, the voltage often dropped, and so that the TV showed normally, my grandfather had a stabilizer with regulation to raise the voltage to 220 V. That's how everyone lived, and Stalin generally took over the country in bast shoes, after WWI, the Civil War and 10 years of intra-party struggle for power, until his program won.
                        Do you remember how electrification began there? And what was the first thing to be powered? Industrial enterprises. And as soon as industrialization was completed in 10 years, the War came. How many people did it take? How many cities and villages did it leave in ruins? And all this had to be restored while simultaneously solving the issues of creating Nuclear Weapons, ICBMs, MRBMs, jet and strategic aviation, and the army under Stalin was kept at 11 million, because remembering the experiences of the war, they understood that if something happened, they would not be able to carry out mobilization normally and there would be no time for it. Or are you still riding on a spherical horse?
                        Half of Europe lay in ruins, half of the European part of the USSR was in general twice in the war (and somewhere more, like with Kharkov) rolled like a fiery shaft. The front-line soldiers, returning home after 10-15 years, began to die from the consequences of wounds and undermined health. At least they managed to give birth to children after the war ...
                        You didn't know this?
                        Do you need a dump truck full of pretzels right away? And mansions with running water and steam heating? In the Trans-Volga steppes where black storms still happen to this day?
                        Stalin had his own plans for the Trans-Volga steppes - greening (planting forests and windbreaks with gradual development for agriculture. And turning several tributaries of Siberian rivers to create a large water surface, which was supposed to bring water to these steppes, soften the climate and instead of a lifeless desert get a subtropical climate with palm trees and pineapples in the south of Central Asia. And by distributing water through canals, plant fruit orchards, rice growing and other useful things. "The Program for Changing Nature" was adopted during his lifetime, but only the south of the Ukrainian SSR, Stavropol and up to the Volga managed to be planted with forests and windbreak forest plantations. The Trans-Volga region was supposed to be greened from the mid-50s. Khrushchev gave up on this, but sent the youth to develop the Virgin Lands. I hope you know how it ended. But first it was necessary to plant forests and planting and only then develop.
                        But you like Khrushchev better.
                        Like with the Mile chainsaw.
                      4. -1
                        3 January 2025 00: 50
                        Quote: bayard
                        Do you need a dump truck full of pretzels right away? And mansions with running water and steam heating? In the Trans-Volga steppes where black storms still happen to this day?
                        -
                        and you (pardon me, not you - Stalin) promised:
                        Quote: bayard
                        In fact, according to the post-war housing construction program approved by Comrade Stalin, the main emphasis was placed on the construction of individual housing, with the allocation (FREE!) of land plots for construction, the issuance of a state loan and the issuance of building materials to developers at a fixed state price.

                        Well, then shove Stalin's plans into the realities of life. Everything that they dreamed up in Moscow - the NSH tried to implement in life. But everything turned out as usual - a bit of a mess
                        First they swung and then when they counted - like in the old joke "We'll pour beer on the cat's nose!!" (c)

                        Quote: bayard
                        You didn’t notice that you are listing to me the citizens of ONE single state.
                        - that is, if now the USSR is back (together with Uzbek, Tajik and KirgSSR) - then you are not immediately against Tajiks and Kurds? And you will not scream "Down with migrants"? And demand their return to their homeland?
                        I am tormented by vague doubts...
                      5. 0
                        3 January 2025 08: 54
                        Quote: your1970
                        and you (pardon me, not you - Stalin) promised:

                        Stalin promised to build "Paradise on Earth", that's why the Coat of Arms of that time had the whole Earth globe enclosed in bunches of wheat ears. And construction implies a certain process, efforts, a path from point "a" to point "P". And if you have strayed from the indicated path, wandered around wastelands and swamps, if you have stopped building your house according to the Palace project, and built it according to a mixture of two projects - a barn and a prison (remember the prison norms for housing construction of 9 square meters from Khrushchev). And since you did this with Khrushchev, then maybe you are to blame? Stalin in 1953 believed that the USSR had not yet built Socialism and was only on the way to it, then Khrushch promised "Communism in 20 years... and immediately robbed all Soviet people of wages, real disposable income, raising prices and devaluing the ruble. Many categories of the population immediately became poorer by several times.
                        So where did you and Khrushchev lead the country after seizing power?
                        The fact that in your Trans-Volga region in the 60s and 70s there was no electricity or window glass is not Stalin’s fault, but your beloved Khrushchev’s with 9 square meters of living space per person - his norm, on the model of European prisons.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Well, then shove Stalin's plans into the realities of life. Everything that they fantasized about in Moscow, the NSH tried to implement in life.

                        And they did it. Stalinist architecture, Stalinist style, Stalin-Beria planning of Soviet cities... Haven't you traveled around the country? Haven't you seen WHAT kind of buildings, what kind of apartment buildings were built back then? What kind of construction technologies were introduced, when bricks were made right on the construction site... and VDNKh was completed in exactly the same way after the war, cities were raised from ruins. Haven't you heard anything about mobile brick factories of that period? About the introduction of low-cement pressing technologies from the ruins of destroyed cities processed in mobile stone mills... Where has all this gone since 1955? Why did high-quality building materials disappear, and "lime-lime brick" appear? Why, instead of strong houses with thick walls, did they start building concrete (in our climate!!! even beyond the Arctic Circle!!!) panel houses, 25 cm thick.?? Really for the sake of the people? Or to change "R" to "a"?
                        Quote: your1970
                        First they swung, and then when they counted, it was like in the old joke: "We'll pour beer on the cat's nose!!"

                        No. First they started building the Palace according to a perfect design, and then, having killed the Author of the design and driven out his foremen, they built a prison according to European standards. So I'm talking about the Palace, of which they also managed to build quite a few, and not about the "prison" that you and Khrushchev built and are pointing at me. And stop making fun of the cat, he is not to blame for your talents.

                        Quote: your1970
                        - that is, if now back to the USSR (together with Uzbek, Tajik and Kyrgyz SSR)

                        The USSR is a State, Law, Order, Constitution (Stalin's, of course), System, State Ideology of a Healthy Person. And not borders. Borders imply an exit to the boundaries that optimally ensure the security and defense capability of the Country. Right now it is more profitable and correct for us if the Uzbeks, Tajiks and Kyrgyz remain on the other side of the border.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And you won't scream "Down with the migrants"?

                        But it is you who want them. I and the citizens of my country do not need them here. Neither the new ones, nor those who have arrived in the last 15 years. If 15-20 million of those who have arrived leave my country, it will definitely become calmer, safer, competition will increase among employers, who will have to not hoard money in offshore accounts, but raise salaries, improve social guarantees and working conditions, and finally worry about increasing labor productivity using methods of scientific organization of production processes, as well as automation, mechanization, robotization, i.e. Technical Progress.
                        You don't like it\you don't want it?
                        Welcome the hell out of the license-deprived business.
                        Don't you remember that in the USSR there was such a fundamental and obligatory thing as Registration? That's the dear thing that held back internal migration. In order to move from the wild outskirts to Civilization, you first had to get an education, a profession, find a JOB in a new place and only then could you get the right to stay/reside, and eventually Registration. And there was also the "Law on the Right to Work" and the "Law on Parasitism".
                        Quote: your1970
                        demand that they be taken back to their homeland?

                        Take an example from Trump. That's exactly what he's going to do. And finish building the Wall in his name on the southern border.
                      6. -4
                        4 January 2025 13: 26
                        Quote: bayard
                        Khrushchev promised "Communism in 20 years... and immediately robbed all Soviet people of their wages, real disposable income, raising prices and devaluing the ruble.

                        boo-hoo - the 1947 reform and the abolition of ration cards, right?

                        Quote: bayard
                        Have you seen WHAT kind of buildings, what kind of residential buildings were being built back then?

                        it was these buildings that did not allow us to cover the annual housing demand by more than 1/6 - for people this meant a housing queue of not 1-2 years, but from 6 to 12 belay years.
                        And they began to sharply simplify Stalin's Empire style already by 1950 - Stalin, unlike you, understood that it was impossible to feed people with promises of housing - at 50 years old..

                        Quote: bayard
                        But it is you who want them. I and the citizens of my Country do not need them here. Neither the new ones, nor those who have arrived in the last 15 years.

                        - this is exactly what I was talking about - as a fan of the USSR - so "down with the blacks"
                        Quote: bayard
                        This is a good thing. When nations are friends. Friends, but do not mix. Especially when savages do not break the cultural code of Civilization.
                        - although in the USSR it was strictly the opposite.
                        Moreover, what you are pushing was punishable by the Criminal Code in the USSR.
                        II. Others public belay crime

                        Article 74. Violation of national and racial equality
                        Propaganda or agitation with the purpose of inciting racial or national hatred or discord, as well as direct or indirect restriction of rights or establishment of direct or indirect advantages of citizens depending on their racial or national affiliation -
                        shall be punishable by imprisonment for a term of six months to three years or exile for a term of two to five years."


                        Quote: bayard
                        In order to move from the wild outskirts to Civilization belay it was necessary to first get an education, a profession, find a JOB in a new place and only then could one obtain the right to stay/reside, and eventually a residence permit
                        -I noticed yeah...Problem with registration- lo-ga-ga...I'll repeat-
                        Quote: your1970
                        Where do 3 Moldovan streets in my village come from?
                        Where did the 4 Kazakhs come from? Well, okay, these are ours, locals?
                        Where does 2 Georgian come from?
                        Where does 1 Armenian come from?
                        Where do 3 branches of collective farms come from - completely Dagestani?
                        and this is all the 1970s and an ordinary regional center of the Saratov region.....
                        - and their children have been living in Saratov/Moscow/St. Petersburg, etc. for a long time (30-50 years).
                        But this they are They piss you off.
                        Although it is quite possible that you live in this city less than they do.
                      7. 0
                        4 January 2025 17: 34
                        Quote: your1970
                        boo-hoo - the 1947 reform and the abolition of ration cards, right?

                        Do you think that the rationing system should be maintained in peacetime? Actually, even during the war there were rationed prices for goods and free/commercial prices, including at markets. And it was precisely these prices that were constantly falling at the time of the abolition of rationing. Under Stalin.
                        Under Khrushchev they grew.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And they began to sharply simplify Stalin's Empire style already by 1950 - Stalin, unlike you, understood that it was impossible to feed people with promises of housing - at 50 years old...

                        I am not talking about artistic delights, but about the QUALITY of housing construction under Stalin and after. In addition, the program of mass housing construction of quality (!) housing should have begun in the mid-50s. Before that, the Country was raised from ruins.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - this is exactly what I was talking about - as a fan of the USSR - so "down with the blacks"

                        They made their own choice at the turn of the 80s and 90s. They were the ones who expelled, robbed and killed Russians from their republics, and then from their states. I remember how this exodus began. And not at all because the Russians oppressed them in any way, quite the opposite - MI6 agents inflated their local nationalisms and feelings (which is generally funny) of their own exclusivity. And since they made their SOLID choice then, then we must support this choice in every possible way. If they made the choice "to live without Russians", they must live in their own enclave/state without Russians. And Russia's borders must be closed with a visa regime and border control. Because this is their free and solid choice.
                        And those who have in their heads (up to 80% of those who have arrived) “Allah built Moscow for us” - a suitcase, a train station, a village.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - although in the USSR it was strictly the opposite.
                        Moreover, what you are pushing was punishable by the Criminal Code in the USSR.

                        So let's judge the Wahhabis to the full extent of the law. According to all these articles about incitement, intolerance, and other exclusivity in hijabs.
                        Quote: your1970
                        -I noticed yeah...Problem with registration- lo-ga-ga...I'll repeat-
                        Quote: your1970
                        Where do 3 Moldovan streets in my village come from?
                        Where did the 4 Kazakhs come from? Well, okay, these are ours, locals?
                        Where does 2 Georgian come from?
                        Where does 1 Armenian come from?
                        Where do 3 branches of collective farms come from - completely Dagestani?
                        and this is all the 1970s and an ordinary regional center of the Saratov region.....

                        Where from?
                        And you don't know for sure??
                        To develop the Virgin Lands, on Komsomol vouchers. And these were the ones who had professional knowledge, knew Russian, and were brought up in a single state. They wanted to live without Russians at the end of the 80s, with the arrival of Gorbachev and with the beginning of the work of the KGB and party elites in the union republics to collapse and destroy the Single State.
                        Quote: your1970
                        They drive you crazy.

                        Only demons can irritate, but I am not that emotional. But you are already in a tizzy.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Although it is quite possible that you live in this city less than they do.

                        I live in Donetsk, where historically there is a very diverse national composition. I have friends and acquaintances who are Dagestanis, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Greeks. But these are people who have been socialized for a long time and they have been living here for a long time.
                        But when Khusnulin brought Tajiks, Uzbeks and other Kyrgyz here... EVERYONE was outraged.
                        And I'm not even talking about Moscow, which has long been Moscowbad. I have a friend who is a lawyer and former diplomatic worker, a polyglot - he knows all the Eastern and European languages. And in his house, in his entrance, in the shops at the checkouts where he goes, there are only Uzbeks, Tajiks, Kyrgyz. He hears and understands what they say in their dialects. So there is no need to "sing Zatulin songs" here - he is a paid traitor and lobbyist for Wahhabism and everything foreign in the Russian Federation. And you are the same.
                        So don’t get mad, don’t irritate, and then you will definitely be heavenly in Russia.
                        But you are not from Russia, right?
                      8. -2
                        5 January 2025 01: 26
                        Quote: bayard
                        I have friends and acquaintances from Dagestan, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Greece. But these are people who have been socialized for a long time and they have been living here for a long time.

                        That is, you have no complaints about the Kurds (1970), Koreans (1950) and Vietnamese (1960) - since they have been socialized here for a long time?
                        What is your socialization period in general?
                        I'll tell you a secret - they are leaving and a lot of them are leaving. The ruble exchange rate is unfavorable. A lot of people have left in the corridor, for mobilization...
                        If you cut the salaries of locals in Moscow to 100 thousand, there will be no migrants left in Moscow.
                        And no visas will be needed...

                        Quote: bayard
                        Do you think that the rationing system should be maintained in peacetime?

                        - the price ratio in WWII: a destroyed tank costs 1000 rubles, a bucket of potatoes costs 100, a bottle of vodka costs 400, and a soldier's life at the front costs from 32 to 62 rubles.
                        And then they cancel the cards that sell cereals for 1 ruble - and the German tanks are already gone... And at the market cereals are 10-12 rubles a kilo.

                        After the war the ratio did not change.
                      9. 0
                        5 January 2025 02: 16
                        Quote: your1970
                        That is, to the Kurds (1970), Koreans (1950) and Vietnamese (1960)

                        I'm not familiar with the Kurds, but according to my friend's stories, they're real gypsies, so no need.
                        There are no complaints about the Koreans at all, they have lived with us for a long time, have socialized and are excellent soldiers, including officers.
                        There are no complaints about the Vietnamese either; they have not been noticed doing anything reprehensible.
                        Claims to the Wahhabi bandits, into which the Turkish-British mullahs and preachers have turned the population of the Central Asian region. There should only be a visa regime with them. And an extremely strict one at that.
                        Quote: your1970
                        What is your socialization period in general?

                        There is no period for the socialization of a Wahhabi. They simply should not be here. They wanted to live without Russians, so they are obliged to live in their villages. For some reason, the same Turkmen do not come to us in such crowds.
                        Why
                        For them, the Ruhnama is the main law. And not the heavy nonsense of British preachers with Turkish passports. The SA simply throws out all its criminal elements to Russia. They themselves have criminal punishment for wearing a hijab in a public place or for a Wahhabi beard, and quite severely, and they dump all this Nazi-criminal cattle on us. Like into the sewer. And the British network lobbies for accepting these bandits here and oversees their import to the Russian Federation. And it goes all the way to the top, look how Zatulin tries, how he bulges his eyes - lobbying is paid for very generously by the communities.
                        Quote: your1970
                        If you cut the salaries of locals in Moscow to 100 thousand, there will be no migrants left in Moscow.

                        Moscow needs to be cleared of Wahhabi migrants, and salaries will become even higher, the streets will be calmer and safer. And there is no need to build new human anthills - there is enough for everyone already.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - the price ratio in WWII: a destroyed tank costs 1000 rubles, a bucket of potatoes costs 100, a bottle of vodka costs 400

                        At the market?
                        And in the store?
                        Quote: your1970
                        d/d of a fighter on the front line from 32 to 62 rubles.

                        Military store vans came to them, do you think the prices there were... market prices?
                        Quote: your1970
                        And then they cancel the cards that give cereals for 1 ruble - and the German tanks are already gone... And at the market cereals are 10-12 rubles a kilo

                        And were cereals sold only at markets? Or were they also available in stores? And where did speculators get them from? They were the ones they fought against after the abolition of ration cards. And Stalin's post-war monetary reform was designed to nullify the capital accumulated by speculators, because they began to corrupt Soviet officials.
                        And prices in state-owned stores dropped every year.
                        The same picture was in all of Europe with ration cards, market prices and speculators. Only there it was even tougher, and the ration cards lasted longer. In England, where there was no war at all, they just bombed a little.
                        Quote: your1970
                        After the war the ratio did not change.

                        It has changed.
                        And the key word is "after the WAR".
                        But you, apparently, even in war, want to serve all the blessings on a platter, without exception, and for free or with extra payment. The soul of a parasite knows no boundaries or limits. I have never heard of Leningrad under siege, or of teenagers at their machine tools making shells, airplanes, and small arms for the front - I would rather have my belly stuffed and my ears scratched...
                        And in the USSR and after the war, from the age of 15, young people were recruited to work in the villages. But we won the War, saved the Country and the People and rebuilt everything anew. And Nikolka-2, who reigned before, lost two wars, conjured up THREE revolutions, destroyed the Empire, almost burned the entire nation in the Civil War... Aren't you a good man?
                        Quote: your1970
                        After the war the ratio did not change.

                        After the war, a miner in Donetsk could buy a Pobeda car for one salary. Under Stalin. But under Khrushchev he could no longer.
                        Do you know what Donetsk was called back then?
                        Stalino!
                        And the region is Stalin's.
                        And on the medal for participation in the Debaltseve operation in 2015, which the fighters were awarded, there is a profile of I.V. Stalin. And his bust was installed in Donetsk at the same time.
                        You can choke on your bile, we have our own Stalingrad here.
                      10. -2
                        5 January 2025 10: 27
                        Quote: bayard
                        After the war, a miner in Donetsk could buy a Pobeda car with one salary
                        or 10 buckets of potatoes......
                        And in Donetsk there were at least 200 thousand cars - before the NSH?!!! After all, the miners could buy...
                        By 1990, the number of deposits over 10 exceeded 000 million - they all FORMALLY could have bought a car - but for some reason they were embarrassed...

                        Quote: bayard
                        Only there it was even tougher, and the cards lasted longer. In the same England, on whose territory there was no war at all, they just bombed a little.
                        - in England it was impossible - probably stupid - to take and drive the entire protest rally against the abolition of rationing to where Makar did not drive calves - well, there was no article there for anti-Soviet propaganda. Otherwise they would have abolished it earlier too.....

                        Quote: bayard
                        I haven't heard - she'd rather have her belly stuffed and her ears scratched...
                        Of the 56 generals executed during the war, about ten were slapped for embezzlement. Of the 1500 pre-war and about 3000 embezzled during the war,
                        There are no statistics on colonels, majors, lieutenants, and sergeants...
                        They probably haven't heard about the war, right - when were they dragging it?

                        Quote: bayard
                        Under Stalin, but under Khrushchev he couldn't anymore.
                        It is clear that you are a fan of Stalin. According to your logic, all the other 5 (five!!) General Secretaries only did harm.
                        Do you understand that the state and the system are not viable - if everything is so bad that the leader died and the state after him??!!
                        You can't reproduce Stalin on a Xerox machine...

                        Quote: bayard
                        At the market?
                        And in the store?

                        In the commercial - the same as in the market, a little cheaper. In regular stores there were none nothing - except for food products on cards.

                        Quote: bayard
                        For some reason, the same Turkmen don’t come to us in such crowds.
                        Why
                        For them, Ruhnama is the main law.

                        Everything is simpler - bank collateral for return. In order to leave for the Russian Federation, a citizen of Turkmenistan must deposit 20 dollars into a special account or provide a bank guarantee.
                        That's why there are no Turkmens anywhere...
                        By the way, everything is also fun with entry there - it is easier to go to Afghanistan than to Turkmenistan.
                        But the fact that they reproduce there is certain. There are habitations on the satellites where there were no settlements at all during the USSR.
                        Apparently they live quite poorly - since they reproduce and leaving is practically prohibited.
                        By the way, Ruhnama has not been in trend there for a long time - its past lol the sultan promoted
                      11. 0
                        5 January 2025 13: 17
                        Quote: your1970
                        or 10 buckets of potatoes...

                        Stop lying !
                        Quote: your1970
                        And in Donetsk there were at least 200 thousand cars - before the NSH?!!!

                        Donetsk was rising from the ruins then, people were BUILD with the money they earned. The state did not build for them - they built themselves, getting out of dugouts. They settled in after the war, because everything that had been before had burned down. The state housing construction program began later, when the ruins had been cleared away, enterprises had been restored, people had been given jobs, factories had produced building materials and construction equipment. In order to give people the same window glass, it was first necessary to restore glass factories, glaze factory workshops, schools, government agencies, hospitals, kindergartens. And until the economy was restored, there were no materials or resources for mass housing construction. And the state was not obliged to do this (as in the rest of the world), it created infrastructure, jobs and paid fairly high salaries. And people built themselves - individually, in housing cooperatives, by business means or by hiring construction teams. And the state issued loans for construction, allocated (free of charge!!) land plots. Since then, in Donetsk, we have preserved a very interesting urban layout, when entire blocks almost in the city center are built up with private houses - several streets long. And around there are high-rise buildings, or Stalin-era buildings (4-5 stories, but with thick walls and high ceilings, like my house, for example) or later, Khrushchev-era districts, but brick ones, 4-5 stories. Therefore, fairly high wages in that period helped people to build up and settle in, and cars were bought by those who had already resolved these issues. And there were no special lines for cars, although they were inexpensive. My friend told me how, when he was little, he went with his father to choose a car at a car dealership. Father - an ordinary miner - brought his salary and annual bonus before the New Year, divided the money into two piles (they were large then) and said "we'll live on this for a month and for the New Year, and now we'll go and choose a car with this" ... And in the showroom the boy saw a luxurious black ZiS fenced off behind a screen, brought to someone to order ... and he started saying "Dad, this is the kind of car we need" lol . But they still bought a "Pobeda" and drove home in it. And my father told me about those times (because he was also a miner) that back then you could buy a car for one salary... Only people needed housing. And not everyone knew how to drive/maintain it. And I heard these stories in Donetsk, and in the Southern Urals, and in other regions.
                        Quote: your1970
                        take and drive the entire protest rally against the abolition of ration cards where Makar has never driven calves

                        Enough lying, everything settled down pretty quickly, prices were regulated, supplies were established, and the post-war food problem was solved very quickly. So much so that even in the village stores of remote villages there were such delicacies (by late Soviet standards) as red fish, red and black caviar, sausages, smoked hams. This is in the Southern Urals, according to my mother's stories. And some interruptions in meat were compensated by the appearance on the shelves of a huge amount of whale meat, which cost mere pennies, but people did not particularly like it. The largest whaling fleet in the world was created in the shortest possible time for this. And Kamchatka crabs? They were considered the cheapest snack back then and cost less than sprats.
                        So there is no point in lying.
                        And the shops back then were really mostly commercial - a multi-structured economy is like that, everything is on the initiative of the workers. That's why both the assortment and the offer were of high quality. As soon as they dealt with the post-war devastation.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Of the 56 generals executed during the war, about ten were slapped for embezzlement. Of the 1500 pre-war and about 3000 embezzled during the war,

                        You see, there are only 56 traitors out of 4500 generals.
                        And now? The entire top of the Ministry of Defense turned out to be embezzlers, traitors and swindlers! Only a few are under investigation, the head of the embezzling ministry is in a new honorary position. And "geniuses" like Lapin and that Dagestani butcher who repeatedly exposed entire tank columns to frontal assaults... Under Stalin, a long time ago, by decision of the Military Tribunal, they were sentenced to the highest measure of social responsibility through execution. The number of the Red/Soviet Army then was an order of magnitude greater than that of the Russian Federation now, and there were many times fewer traitors and embezzlers during the entire war. And mandatory, INEVITABLE punishment. That is why it was effective - RESPONSIBILITY was personal, and the higher the post, the higher the responsibility. This is right.
                        Quote: your1970
                        According to your logic, all the other 5 (five!!) General Secretaries only did harm.

                        Not all. The same dear Leonid Ilyich corrected and returned much of what Khrushchev had broken. Thus, he restored the Government of the USSR (abolished by Khrushchev), the State Planning Committee (disbanded by him), abolished the mocking and extortionate taxes on household plots, fruit trees and livestock (!!!) right down to chickens, introduced by the scoundrel Khrushchev. He restored cooperative stores and consumer cooperation in some forms, but unfortunately on an extremely limited scale. But the reform prepared by Kosygin with the return of ALL the norms of the Stalinist Socialist Economy ... was "postponed" - frightened by the events in Czechoslovakia, which the traitor Andropov presented as the result of "such reforms", which was a deliberate monstrous Lie.
                        Andropov himself shouldn't be considered a General Secretary at all - he made a mess and dragged a lot of trash into the Central Committee/Politburo, but he himself didn't rule for long. Chernenko was deeply ill, but continued Brezhnev's policies, and he can't be counted either. So it turns out that after Stalin and the monstrous pogrom of the fanatic Khrushchev, the situation was partly rectified by Brezhnev (but he himself wasn't a star and acted/led within his competence) and after Andropov's "personnel hurricane" by Chernenko. And only Khrushch and Gorbachev remain, who together with Andropov ruled for 15-16 years at most. So we lived on Stalin's legacy thanks to L.I. Brezhnev's "stagnation".
                        Quote: your1970
                        the state and the system are not viable - if everything is so bad that the leader died and the state after him??!!

                        The state is the Management, Control and Security Apparatus. What Stalin built was largely destroyed, and only partially restored under Brezhnev... just so that this state could work and cope with tasks. But the state is also STAFF, which, as we know, "decide everything". And it is also an Ideology. Which, like Khrushchev, was not a crumple, but all the main priorities and principles of a Solidarity Society, could not be eradicated and changed. Until the betrayal of Gorbachev and the traitor Yeltsin.
                        Quote: your1970
                        There was nothing in the regular stores except for food products with ration cards.

                        "Regular stores" appeared later. Before Upyr, the majority of stores, restaurants and cafes were commercial. But the state monitored prices. And so prices DECLINED.
                        And in your "Saratov wilderness" (if you really are from there) apparently you were not only unlucky with the climate, but also with the regional leadership. Even in the late USSR, everyone who visited the "starving Volga region" and especially the Saratov region described the horrors of the supplies there - "there is only pasta and rusty herring in the stores" belay . Which was almost nowhere else. At that time, in the USSR, in the union republics, clan-corporate groups of local nationalists ruled, who, by corrupting the union leadership of the Ministry of Trade, knocked out increased supply quotas for themselves, as well as centralized subsidies and increased financing. That is why the sterile and stupid Armenian SSR, which had almost no serious industry and agriculture, but had nosy suppliers and lobbyists, ensured the highest level of consumption per capita in the USSR!! Consuming more than twice as much as it produced itself. And Georgia had a twice higher level of consumption than it produced itself. Further, the record holders in terms of consumption were the Baltic republics, of which Estonia stood out in particular. Having a consumption level at the level of Armenia. At the same time, retail prices in the Estonian SSR were surprisingly very seriously lower than the all-Union ones. And it was so striking, especially against the backdrop of the abundance of supply - “there is everything and cheaper than everyone else.”
                      12. -2
                        5 January 2025 23: 16
                        Quote: bayard
                        And there were no special lines for cars, although they were inexpensive. My friend told me how, when he was little, he went with his father to a car dealership to choose a car. My father, an ordinary miner, brought his salary and annual bonus before the New Year, divided the money into two piles (they were large then) and said, "We'll live on this for a month and for the New Year, and now we'll go and choose a car with this."

                        Quote: bayard
                        But they still bought a "Pobeda" and drove home in it. And my father told me about those times (he was also a miner) that back then you could buy a car for one salary...

                        You apparently don't understand that miners and the rest of the country are two very different things.
                        ".....By the Resolution of the Council of Ministers No. 1437 of May 7, 1947, the price of the "Pobeda" was set at 16 rubles. This amount included the cost of selling the car in the amount of 000 percent of its retail price - that is 6 rubles.
                        But our already familiar comrade Pavlov from the Ministry of Trade stubbornly stuck to his guns and after an unsuccessful comparison of the cost of Soviet cars with foreign ones, he began to compare the prices of cars and men's suits. Thus, according to his calculations, the cost of a Citroen 11CV was equal to the cost of 16,6 "best custom-made wool suits". But in the USSR, for 16 rubles, you could only buy eight suits, which indicated a very low price for the "Pobeda". But Pavlov chose the eternal market law of supply and demand as his main argument: As of January 12, 1955, the waiting list for the Pobeda was 58 people, and for the Moskvich – 500.
                        According to the plan for 1955, it was supposed to produce only 33 Pobedas, but only 000 of this quantity were allocated for retail sale. 17 400 — with the old prices the queue would have stretched for three years."
                        And the cherry on the cake is about the difference in salaries
                        Quote: bayard
                        And my father told me about those times (because he was also a miner) that back then you could buy a car with one salary.

                        if dad didn't lie to you and the miner received 16 belay per month belay -the rest of the country received
                        "In 1954, the average monthly wage in industry was 792 rubles, in construction - 711, on water transport - 897, in agriculture - 440, in the state apparatus - 768, in trade - 556, in education - 739, in healthcare - 509 rubles. "
                        that is, in any industries - several years of full salary.
                        "People just needed housing."- In 1956, your grandfather built a 60 sq. m. adobe house for 1 - uteruses, doors, boards, slate. It was very expensive - but 800 times cheaper than Pobeda - which, according to your dad, he could buy with his salary.


                        Quote: bayard
                        And "geniuses" like Lapin and that Dagestani butcher, who time after time put entire tank columns under attack in frontal assaults... Under Stalin, a long time ago, by decision of the Military Tribunal, they were sentenced to the highest measure of social responsibility through execution.
                        -What are you talking about????
                        Voroshilov was cut into pieces for collapse People's Commissariat?" 27 Kremenchug artillery warehouse - of the 10% inspected of 70 000mm shells in storage - 76% do not fit into the inspection chamber, 37% have expired gunpowder, all 10% of those inspected are equipped with fuses prohibited for assembly, 100% are stored in boxes with 50mm stencils belay shells" and so on on 11 sheets of deficiencies
                        Do you know what it means - "the shell does not fit into the test chamber"? This is when "Tanks!!!" - and the shell does not fit into the loading chamber, does not fit at all. And "fuzes prohibited from assembly" - this is when the shell was shoved in, fired and even hit - but it did not explode. And boxes with a stencil "107mm" were brought to the 107mm division, and there were 76 mm - and German tanks are already crushing the division. And this is only 1 artillery depot and only 1 position of shells - and there were a mountain of such depots.
                        Was Zhigarev's head chopped off for failure to deliver aircraft to the front in November 1941?
                        Was Zhukov impaled as the Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army - for screwing up the start of the war?
                        You understand as well as I do that if a person's SOVIET character reference says that he is "unfit for staff and teaching work" - then that's the end of the line; such things were not written about adequate, normal military personnel.


                        Quote: bayard
                        Everything settled down pretty quickly, and prices were regulated, and supplies were established, and the post-war food problem was solved very quickly. So much so that even in the village stores of remote villages there were such delicacies (by late Soviet standards) as red fish, red and black caviar, sausages, smoked hams. This is in the Southern Urals, according to my mother's stories.
                        -You have been living under capitalism for so many years and still haven't understood why the stores are full of products... Yes, the population doesn't really have money for them. Then the same effect was
                        On average, the collective farmers' wages outside of the harvest season - sowing and harvesting - were at the level of 90 rubles. During the harvest season, they could earn 1000 per month (a family with a combine harvester 600 + 300-400) - but spreading these 1500-2000 we get an average annual wage - oops 200-220.
                        and everything you listed cost from 6-7 rubles a kilo... Can you often afford sausage for 2 now? - the ratio is the same


                        Quote: bayard
                        "Regular stores" appeared later.
                        - No. They have always been there. These are commercial ones that opened during the war, several per city, one per regional center - no more.
                      13. 0
                        6 January 2025 00: 54
                        Quote: your1970
                        You apparently don't understand that miners and the rest of the country are two very different things.

                        And I specifically emphasized the salaries of miners. And at one time I looked through the wage scales of that period, the highest salaries (except for professors, academics and test pilots) were for miners and metallurgists.
                        Quote: your1970
                        if dad didn't lie to you and the miner got 16 a month

                        Firstly, in addition to the actual salaries, there were also bonuses if the plan was fulfilled or, even more so, overfulfilled, monthly, quarterly, annual, and also at the end of the year the 13th salary was paid.
                        You haven't forgotten that my friend's story was about New Year's Eve, have you? So December's salary, annual bonus (and the mine was fulfilling or even exceeding its plan) + 13th salary, that's even more than necessary. That's why he divided the salary he brought in a bag (and that's how people went to get their salaries back then, because it didn't fit in their pockets) into two piles: "We'll live on this for a month, and we'll take this with you to choose a car." This boy, who went with his father to choose a car, later became a general. And not just a general. And before that, his older brother became a general. This is by the way, about equal opportunities in the USSR. I knew other generals - the son of a rural teacher, a factory worker, a shoemaker... And they were good generals, Vietnam several times (several business trips), Afghanistan, Egypt.
                        My father also told me that at the end of the year some miners bought cars with their salary and bonus. And high salaries in the mine or at the open-hearth furnace or rolling mill were due to difficult conditions, high risk to life and high injury rates. My grandfather (father's father) died in the mine when my father was 10 years old. Six children were left orphans... my younger sister had not yet been born.
                        And people built in different ways - some made adobe, some put up a log house, some built a brick house, if they had the opportunity. Some joined a cooperative and chipped in to build an apartment building. And it came out to different amounts. Moreover, in addition to the walls and roof, you had to buy things for family members, and get furniture, there were different expenses. And not everyone who could afford it wanted to buy a car, it was not in the culture. My father had such an opportunity in the late Soviet Union - both money, and they offered it at work when cars arrived according to the quota. But he did not need it. And in those days, even more so. After all, a car needs a garage, maintenance ... not everyone is interested in this, when there is public transport. Owning a car was not yet part of the national culture. For ordinary people, which miners and metallurgists were.
                        Quote: your1970
                        27 "Kremenchug artillery warehouse - of the 10% of 70 000mm shells inspected, 76% do not fit into the inspection chamber, 37% have expired gunpowder, all 10% of those inspected are equipped with fuses prohibited for assembly, 100% are stored in boxes with stencils of 50mm shells" and so on on 107 sheets of deficiencies

                        I hear about such a fact for the first time, but I am not very surprised. There was a lot of chaos then, discipline (as after any revolution) was lame, there were few competent military specialists/professionals, but there were still plenty of saboteurs and enemies of the people. Moreover, according to your description, those shells were laid 10+ years before the inspection (since the gunpowder was expired). And false stencils could have been specially applied, which would have worsened the mess during the war. Only Voroshilov was engaged in cleaning up this mess. And from the post of Minister of Defense he left for a higher post - to oversee the entire defense industry. And as part of the Headquarters of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, he was Stalin's first deputy. And Budyonny was the second deputy.
                        Are there any complaints about the organization of the work of the Defense Industry during the Great Patriotic War, in the conditions of the evacuation of the majority of defense enterprises beyond the Urals? And about the organization of the evacuation of these enterprises themselves, when they were taken out from under the noses of the advancing Germans? And Beria was also involved in this. And he managed to command the Caucasian Front.
                        And Budyonny, besides being Stalin's second deputy at Headquarters, also led the entire Partisan Movement. And was he a bad leader? When entire partisan divisions operated behind enemy lines? Remember Kovpak? He was a collective farm chairman before the war. Together with his friend (my old friend's grandfather), they formed a division and crossed almost all of Ukraine behind enemy lines and then moved on. Both friends were chairmen of neighboring collective farms before the war, and my friend's grandfather was Kovpak's deputy (division commander).
                        And you are wrong about Zhukov. Yes, he missed the Germans' preparation, but what a sophisticated and risky game they were playing - they were creative on the eve of the war with us (and with others) no worse than the 95th quarter. And what experience did our generals and marshals have then? The experience of the Civil War? Or maybe Pavlov, who ruined his entire mighty Western District and put it in cauldrons, was a genius? But before the district, he had never commanded anything higher than a brigade. Our generals learned operational and strategic art during the war itself. And as you can see, they surpassed and routed their teachers. If a boxer started a fight unsuccessfully, but later managed to turn the tide of the fight and won a confident, uncontested Victory by knockout ... is it worth pointing out his unsuccessful start to the fight even 80 years later? We withstood the blow and defeated the one who had previously conquered all of Europe playfully and had never known defeat before.

                        Quote: your1970
                        "unfit for staff and teaching work"

                        And this was a completely fair characterization. Staff and teaching work were not his thing. But operational command of troops and conducting strategic offensive operations were very successful for him. And he stopped the enemy on the approaches to Leningrad and built a defense. And he routed the Japanese at Khal-Khin-Gol to dust, so that, remembering that example, they never dared to open a second front against us. And he stopped the enemy near Moscow and turned it back. And he conducted the Berlin offensive operation in such a way that it is still considered exemplary. There is no need to poke at the diseases of rapid growth in numbers against the background of the total rearmament of the Red Army. In a matter of years, they only grew numerically from 400-500 thousand to 5,3 million, where did it get so many ready commanders from? From such a low base and without a reliable base of the old generation. The roots of the Red Army grew from the recent Civil War.
                      14. -2
                        6 January 2025 21: 52
                        Quote: bayard
                        This is by the way about equal opportunities in the USSR.

                        I can bet 1000 against your 1 ruble that I will name 3 names and you will say - that it would have been better if there had never been equal opportunities in the USSR.NSH, EBN and MSG had no connections, they are not rich kids or children of oligarchs, they did everything themselves - thanks to the social lifts of the USSR...

                        Quote: bayard
                        Are there any complaints about the organization of work in the Defense Industry during the Great Patriotic War, in the context of the evacuation of most of the defense enterprises beyond the Urals?
                        - I already wrote about the reduction of defects to 48% by the end of the war and tanks made of substandard iron instead of armor - there were articles here on VO, chemical analysis was carried out. About the fact that tanks from different factories had incompatible parts - which is nonsense with one set of drawings. About magazines that were individually adjusted to a specific PPSh.
                        This makes it easier to find what was done correctly, qualitatively and in accordance with the documentation - individual things
                        But you will refer to evacuation problems...


                        Quote: bayard
                        And what experience did our generals and marshals have then? Experience of the Civil War? Our generals learned operational and strategic art during the war itself.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And he smashed the Japanese to dust at Khal-Khin-Gol

                        Quote: bayard
                        And "geniuses" like Lapin and that Dagestani butcher, who in frontal assaults entire tank columns exposed to attack time and time again

                        Did Lapin have experience fighting with regular troops?
                        You allow Zhukov to destroy a hundred and something tanks and armored vehicles at Khalkhin-Gol during the attack of the Yakovlev brigade - "to practice on cats" so to speak, but you do not give Lapin such an opportunity (and I am sure that we are talking about significantly smaller losses than Zhukov)
                        Moreover, Zhukov had training sessions regular enemy armies - Khalkhingol, Poland, Finland, Lapin has no such experience in principle - he had nowhere to study. But you diligently defend Zhukov
                        Quote: bayard
                        If a boxer starts the fight poorly
                        - and you don't give right to make mistakes Lapinu

                        Quote: bayard
                        And he carried out the Berlin offensive operation in such a way that it is still considered exemplary to this day.
                        - Yeah, you did it especially well with the searchlights - even the last Mudanjiang would have guessed that 280 guns per kilometer would create a dust fog that searchlights couldn't penetrate - but the searchlights would illuminate it beautifully SILHOUETTES our infantry - shoot like in a shooting gallery!!! They should be hanged for such "exemplary behavior", and not by the neck...
                      15. 0
                        7 January 2025 00: 04
                        Quote: your1970
                        They are not rich kids or children of oligarchs, they all did it themselves - thanks to the social lifts of the USSR...

                        I disagree.
                        Khrushchev is the son of a large Polish land magnate, who had a child with his housekeeper. His entire biography of his origins and before the Revolution is falsified. His father migrated after the revolution, and his son was introduced into the so-called revolutionary movement, got married, his wife was on the revolutionary and Komsomol line and pulled, then fading into the background. He was an ardent supporter of Trotsky (after his expulsion from the USSR, he pretended to repent), as his agent he worked for German intelligence during the first half of the war, our failures in the defense of Kyiv (1941), the unsuccessful and unwise offensive on Kharkov (1942) - in many ways his and his agents' work. In 1943, he was re-recruited by the British MI6 right at the front by an English military representative, who brought him a letter from his father, who was then in London. It was about this most valuable MI6 agent that our agents from the Cambridge Group reported to the Central Committee and the Politburo. But they did not know his name or anything at all, except that a member of the Central Committee and the Politburo was a most valuable MI6 agent, information about whom they guarded more than the apple of their eye. Stalin was never able to identify this agent, and this cost the USSR too much.
                        EBN is the grandson of a local regional magnate, who had the only mill in the entire region, everyone brought grain to him for grinding, had many workers, was dispossessed... And I'm not even talking about "beautiful Naina", whose influence on her husband's career was in many ways decisive. In such families it is always like that.
                        The same thing happened with Gorbachev (regarding the role of his wife in his career). He himself is not Gorbachev by his biological father, but a TURK - the son of a Turkish prisoner of war, who got married and settled in Russia\USSR, but when foreigners\aliens began to be checked\sifted in the second half of the 30s, he took his eldest son with him and fled to Turkey, leaving his wife with their youngest son Misha. There is information that during the German occupation, Misha served the Germans, for which they treated him to chocolate and even promised to take him to Germany after the war (after the collapse of the USSR, they did take him). Together with his stepfather, he worked on a combine during the harvest and thanks to continuous alternating work, they set either a union or regional record ... and both were awarded orders (I think Lenin, which is VERY serious for a school graduate). That's why he entered the University without exams (ORDER!), and already there young MI6 agents noticed him through the secret international youth organization "De-Mol" (a kind of Masonic "Komsomol"), introduced him to a beautiful classmate ... and Misha got hooked and followed Raya like a bull on a leash from then on. Recruiting him was even easier when it became known about his real father and brother, living in the NATO country Turkey. Misha and Raya's friends from student days (also a couple) who introduced them, later after graduation became one of the leaders of the "Prague Spring", and they maintained correspondence and friendly relations right up until Misha's General Secretaryship and presidency. And in their younger years, they were simultaneously members of the "De-Mol" organization with Margaret Thatcher, which Margaret Thatcher's daughter later told British journalists about.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - about the reduction of marriage to 48% by the end of the war

                        And how can we be married alone, when even by the end of the war, marriage still made up 48%... so in 1941-1943, the barracks made up all 90-100%... did we win the war? laughing The British and Americans did save us (by the way, they really did save us). How come our soldiers didn't kill themselves, fighting with nothing but trash?
                        Quote: your1970
                        I already wrote about tanks made of substandard iron instead of armor - there were articles here on VO, chemical analysis was carried out.

                        War is a special time. It is when the QUANTITY and rhythm of arms supplies almost always beat the quality.
                        The Germans tried differently (betting on quality), but lost in quantity, strategy, resources, and, at the end of the war, in combat tactics.
                        Quote: your1970
                        tanks from different factories had incompatible parts - which is nonsense with one set of drawings.

                        No nonsense, but the everyday life of that time. There were certainly inconveniences, but the factories had a production plan, for the fulfillment of which their managers were responsible. Therefore, questions of standardization faded into the background, and questions of optimizing the technological process for the production of the maximum possible number of tanks for the front came to the fore. And it worked.
                        Quote: your1970
                        You allow Zhukov to destroy a hundred and something tanks and armored vehicles at Khalkhin Gol during the attack of the Yakovlev brigade

                        But the victory was loud and bright. And the memory of it kept Japan from opening a second front throughout WWII. In my opinion, not too high a price for such a significant result. After all, if Japan had intervened in WWII, and at a critical moment, we might not have survived it.
                        But the Jesuits always have their own Falsehood for this.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Zhukov had training on regular enemy armies - Khalkhingol, Poland, Finland, Lapin has no such experience in principle - he had nowhere to study. But you diligently defend Zhukov

                        And you surprisingly stubbornly defend Lapin.
                        Zhukov - Marshal of Victory who took the Victory Parade on Red Square... does not need anyone's protection. He also had mistakes and shortcomings, but everyone knows him as an outstanding military leader and commander, one of the authors of the USSR's Victory in the Great Patriotic War. Although purely as a person and in terms of the brightness and expressiveness of his talent, Rokosovsky is still closer to me.
                        And Lapin had his chances, but in the people's memory he is already imprinted as a symbol of the defeat and retreat of our troops from the Kharkov region and the missed attack from the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the Belgorod region. And he has not yet run out of time for correction and rehabilitation... only it would be better not to allow another general to command in a conflict of such significance. And such (a general) as Kisel. But we are fighting with what we have, and this is the homespun truth of the bourgeois, untalented reality.
                        Yesterday I learned that another friend of mine died. Near Kursk. One of the most desperate and successful commanders of the reconnaissance unit of the 5th brigade of the DPR... He had not been wounded in the 5 years that he fought since 2014. True, he was shell-shocked during the Debaltseve operation. Four children. He did not fight from the beginning of the SVO, because he had to feed his family, but he could not resist and signed a contract with his friend.
                        For the general, DPR officer ranks and combat experience are of no importance and are not recognized, and they signed the contract as privates. And both died. In the second half of December... but I only found out about this yesterday.
                        This is the price of the general's foolishness, when an experienced intelligence officer with 5 years of war experience, whose deputy was a Hero of Russia, an officer of the Special Operations Forces - all 5 years his deputy, a man for whom that war was already the fifth. But the general does all this on a Turkish drum and an experienced intelligence officer dies in one of the first exits from FPV. This is the general, such quality of management, and this is against the background of an acute shortage of command personnel, especially with such combat experience.

                        Quote: your1970
                        - Yeah, it’s especially beautiful with the spotlights.

                        No, yeah, in my practice we also used this experience back in the winter of 1990 during the suppression of the rebellion in Azerbaijan.
                        Quote: your1970
                        the last Mudanjiang would have guessed that 280 guns per kilometer would create a dust fog impenetrable to searchlights

                        And where will they create this "fog"?
                        In the foreground of enemy positions? lol (of course NO!)
                        Or over the enemy positions themselves and in their immediate rear?
                        And who will they highlight then?
                        Have you ever had an anti-aircraft searchlight shining in your eyes?
                        Even for a split second?
                        But I happened to catch such a "hare" ... the size of a giant kangaroo ... I lost my sight for 15-20 minutes. I thought that my retina was completely burned. So for me, the searchlight only waved a beam, but the searchlights were deliberately shining into the Germans' eyes.
                        At night !
                        When the pupil is maximally open in the dark!!
                        And the illuminated smoke above the enemy positions created additional diffuse, but wider (not only in the beam zone) illumination. And the silhouettes of our approaching fighters could really be seen... It is difficult to aim. And sometimes almost impossible.
                        Once again, I have personally experienced the use of anti-aircraft searchlights.
                      16. -2
                        7 January 2025 15: 13
                        Quote: bayard
                        Khrushchev is the son of a large Polish land magnate, who had a child with his housekeeper. His entire biography of his origins and before the Revolution is falsified.

                        Quote: bayard
                        EBN is the grandson of a local regional tycoon

                        Quote: bayard
                        He himself, according to his biological father, is not Gorbachev at all, but a TURK - the son of a Turkish prisoner of war, who got married and settled in Russia/USSR, but when foreigners/aliens began to be checked/sifted in the second half of the 30s, he took his eldest son with him and fled to Turkey, leaving his wife with his youngest son Misha.

                        the problem here is that either what you wrote is true and then the OGPU/NKVD/MGB/KGB is a gathering of talentless, stupid, sell-out sheep who are incapable of anything, or it is a lie and the glory of one of the strongest intelligence agencies in the world is deserved.
                        The figure of the General Secretary was too great and too small All three of them were at the level of district/city committees - so that someone would start covering them up, falsifying and promoting them.

                        Quote: bayard
                        But the victory was loud and bright.
                        - boo-hoo. And for some reason the People's Commissariat of Defense didn't consider this a victory.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And you surprisingly stubbornly defend Lapin.
                        Zhukov - Marshal of Victory who took the Victory Parade on Red Square... does not need anyone's protection. He also had mistakes and shortcomings, but everyone knows him as an outstanding military leader and commander, one of the authors of the USSR's Victory in the Great Patriotic War.
                        -hhh ....
                        THEN he became outstanding in about 30 years. But right after For some reason, Khalkhin-Gol did not consider him outstanding - some comrades even spoke out in obscenities in favor of the Yakovlev Brigade's attack.
                        Moreover, for example, Japan did not regard the battles at Khalkhin Gol as a defeat at all.
                        He is outstanding - in retrospect, but Lapin was not given such an opportunity to learn.
                        Quote: bayard
                        But the generals did all this according to the Turkish drum and an experienced officer
                        - and Yakovlev, who died due to Zhukov's fault, doesn't count?




                        Quote: bayard
                        And how come we only had marriage, when even by the end of the war the marriage rate was still 48%... so in 1941-1943 the barracks made up all 90-100%... did we win the war? The British and Americans saved us (by the way, they really did save us). How come our soldiers didn't kill themselves, fighting with just one lousy marriage?
                        -once again slowly- if the armor of a tank produced in 1942 does not contain a single chemical element provided for by the composition of the armor and giving it special armor properties - then this is 100% marriage, it is not armor, but simply thick iron. This particular tank fought and was simply lucky. And someone was unlucky and the iron was pierced by a German shell - and the armor could withstand this blow.
                        And on the other side there is our 45mm armor-piercing projectile - which is 97% for the sake of the plan belay they slapped together a marriage and the German armor held it - it just pricked. And on the third side, colleagues from the warehouses - who prohibited(!!!) the shells were equipped with fuses (and there were also used howitzer shells, shrapnel, gun harnesses, etc.)...
                        So yes, you are right - 100% of the wars were fought with defects in 1941-43 at the very least.
                        My grandfather, a heavy howitzer artilleryman, said that when shrapnel good I received it - against the German infantry it was more terrible than machine guns, no trenches/craters could save us.

                        Quote: bayard
                        No, yeah, in my practice we also used this experience back in the winter of 1990 during the suppression rebellion in Azerbaijan.

                        fool fool
                        In your fervor for defending Zhukov, you don’t even understand what the problem is and compare it to something other than a finger or something...
                        Opposite Zhukov stood: “The Seelow Heights were defended by units of the 9th German Army and the 56th Panzer Corps, consisting of 14 infantry divisions, 587 tanks (512 in operation, 55 under repair, 20 on the way), 2625 artillery, including 695 anti-aircraft guns. To the south of the front was the 4th Tank Army, aimed against the 1st Ukrainian Front."
                        I hope it finally dawns on you that there is something against you 1990 there were slightly less than 14 divisions of 120 Wehrmacht soldiers with 000 guns???!!
                        Which SUDDENLY FOR SOME REASON belay started shooting at the advancing spacecraft???
                        Quote: bayard
                        And where will they create this "fog"?
                        In the foreground of enemy positions? (Of course NO!)
                        Or over the enemy positions themselves and in their immediate rear?
                        And who will they highlight then?

                        For Zhukov and you - my grandfather said that sometimes during the day an outstretched hand could not be seen because of a veil of dust from explosions, soot and smoke.
                        And along the Seelow Heights in 20 minutes more than 500 the shells have been fired.
                        What the hell are searchlights?? Considering that the width of the German defense line is 15-25 km???
                        You and Zhukov together do not understand that our artillery, working along the German lines of defense, created a dust curtain for the Germans, and the German artillery, working along our front line and the battlefield, created a second dust curtain.
                        And this is all in width up to 30 km (!!!!!!) - a solid cloud of dust..
                        "retina of the eye" recourse yeah...two strategists...
                      17. +1
                        7 January 2025 17: 08
                        Quote: your1970
                        the problem here is that either what you wrote is true and then the OGPU/NKVD/MGB/KGB is a gathering of talentless, stupid, sell-out sheep

                        Did you know that since 1955 the KGB was forbidden to investigate representatives of the party nomenklatura? And nevertheless, dossiers on these protégés of Andropov (Yakovlev, Gorbachev, Shevardnadze and Co.) were compiled, but it was impossible to launch the cases into production. That colonel (later general) who had been handling Gorbachev's case since the time of his regional committee "exploits" compiled this dossier ... and presented it to Andropov. And there were not only minor pranks, but also international drug trafficking in the interests of the British crown ... But Andropov ordered the case closed, and Gorbachev was immediately transferred to the Central Committee. And there he was promoted to General Secretary. The British network in the late USSR acted especially actively and assertively. And at the very top echelons. For the time was already approaching for the long-planned coup and liquidation of the USSR. I was a young man when I heard about Gorbachev and his exploits in drug trafficking (from Afghanistan... in those same "zinc coffins" that were later written about and even filmed)... but due to my youth I treated it as wild stuff... I didn't believe it despite the high rank of the interlocutor, because it was too incredible for a young Soviet officer. But everything was confirmed.
                        But the competent comrades were unable to do anything, because their superiors were also in the conspiracy.
                        So the authorities acted quite professionally, but they could not work against the party leadership - they did not have the authority.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Quote: bayard
                        But the victory was loud and bright - boom. But the People's Commissariat of Defense did not consider it a victory for some reason.

                        And this is not true. Besides, it was the first time that massive use of tanks in an offensive operation was tested. And the experience gained from that attack was later taken into account. Including the experience of numerous spontaneous combustions of BT from gasoline vapors and sparking electrics. As a result, tanks began to be converted to diesel engines. And the insufficient armor of light tanks led to the fact that by the beginning of the war with Germany and Co. we already had T-34 and KV in serial production.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - and Yakovlev, who died due to Zhukov's fault, doesn't count?

                        What do you mean "through fault"? It was a war, and in war it happens that not only privates die.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Japan did not regard the battles at Khalkhin Gol as a defeat at all

                        Maybe they considered this a victory?
                        The fact that this was a probe of the USSR on the part of Japan in this direction, and having received a beating on the brains, they fled back to Manchukuo, defeated both in air battles and on the ground - this is a victory. These events did not continue, the Japanese preferred to make peace. And they came to Moscow for peace, and not vice versa. And they did not come out against us on Hitler's side, remembering their past experience. And this is already the result of that victory. The scale of that short war was limited, they made peace quickly, but the conclusions from the first fairly large-scale combat use of tanks in an offensive operation were made correctly and the modernization of the Armored Forces began.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Lapin was not given such an opportunity to learn.

                        They gave it, and how they gave it. After the collapse of the front in the Kharkov region, he also missed the enemy's attack in the Belgorod region in exactly the same way and plugged the holes with conscripts. Perhaps this is simply not his level. But no one handed him (Lapin) over to the Tribunal like Pavlov in 1941. And Kisel, who left so many trophies from his farm to the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the first phase, was also not presented with any claims - he was sent to command in Syria ... he distinguished himself there in exactly the same way. Should he also be given another chance? Isn't such science too expensive for us?

                        Quote: your1970
                        This is not armor, but simply thick iron. This particular tank fought and was simply lucky. And someone else was unlucky and the iron was pierced by a German shell - and the armor could withstand this blow.

                        The Germans also had problems with the quality of armor, but at the end of the war.
                        Quote: your1970
                        the armor of the tank produced in 1942 does not include

                        And what happened on the fronts in 1942, do you remember? Mariupol, which provided a fair share of armor steel, when the Germans took it? And the manganese deposits? But tanks were needed. That's why they were made from the steel that was available at that time.
                        Or do you think that production should have been stopped? No.
                        Quote: your1970
                        What the hell are spotlights?

                        Besides, Zhukov wanted to achieve a surprise attack, so he scheduled it for night time. And the searchlights were used for two purposes - to blind the enemy and prevent him from firing accurately at the troops advancing in the open, and to illuminate the terrain for his troops so that they wouldn't break their arms and legs in the dark and so that their infantry wouldn't be crushed by tanks. Because when you stand with your back to the searchlight, the terrain is illuminated very well. Or would you still dispute the success of such a tactical move and the result achieved with its help?? The Seelow Heights were taken practically on the move, and the losses were minimized, and the Germans offered much weaker resistance than they could have. And Berlin was taken quickly.
                        Quote: your1970
                        "retina" yeah...two strategists

                        Before this mess with the searchlights began, I captured the Minister of Defense of the People's Front of Azerbaijan and sent him to headquarters under escort... And they let him go. After which he and his henchmen drove the entire population of the neighboring (across the fence from us) oil workers' settlement to a rally and wanted to throw them into storming our warehouses. But two searchlights removed from the runway (they illuminated the runway during night flights) did their job. And you only have dust in your head. Half with smoke. What is Anika the warrior famous for? That he dared to crumble a loaf of bread on Soviet marshals? What battles did he win?
                        Quote: your1970
                        You and Zhukov don't understand each other

                        Well, where do we go lol with Zhukov then laughing to understand such a genius. You will remain misunderstood... unappreciated. fool "genius".
                        But then this incident with the searchlights immediately reminded me of the Berlin Offensive Operation. And in my own practice I appreciated what it was like to be under such a searchlight, and how the steppe/flat terrain is well illuminated by searchlights when they shine in your back.
                      18. -3
                        8 January 2025 01: 06
                        Quote: bayard
                        But then this incident with the searchlights immediately reminded me of the Berlin Offensive Operation.

                        Once again, slowly - maybe it will get there - the depth of the German defense from 15 to 25 km was shot through by our artillery, the battlefield and our line of defense were fired upon by German artillery.
                        Even a strategist like Zhukov would not have thought of placing searchlights in the infantry line - a total of at least 30 km for illumination.
                        Slowly - once again - 500 shells in 000 minutes of ours and several thousand of the Germans.

                        Quote: bayard
                        After which he and his henchmen drove the entire population of the neighboring (across the fence from us) oil workers' settlement to a rally and wanted to send them to storm our warehouses. But two searchlights removed from the runway (they illuminated the runway during night flights) did their job.

                        and now I will remind you - 14 divisions * 1380 machine guns =19 machine guns belay
                        For some reason I suspect that there weren't even 5 machine guns against you - it's not the Seelow Heights


                        Quote: bayard
                        And what happened on the fronts in 1942, do you remember? Mariupol, which provided a fair share of armor steel, when the Germans took it? And the manganese deposits? But tanks were needed. Therefore, they made it from the steel that was available at that time.
                        Or do you think that production should have been stopped?

                        and at that time, steel was available - not armor either in composition or in manufacturing quality, that is, 100% defective by any criteria. Precisely due to the lack of components required by the standard composition
                        That's what you needed. to myself prove in response to your post -
                        Quote: bayard
                        And how can we be married alone, when even by the end of the war the marriage rate was still 48%... therefore, in 1941-1943 the barracks made up all 90-100% ... did we win the war?

                        Have you explained it to yourself?

                        Quote: bayard
                        What do you mean "through fault"? It was a war, and in war it happens that not only privates die.
                        - I know. But if you remove the full name, you will stamp your feet and be indignant about how the damned modern "generals" destroyed 100 tanks in a day.
                        I repeat - Zhukov, who destroyed a lot of equipment and people, is a great guy, modern ones - they had no combat experience and lost significantly less than Zhukov in ANY moment of his military career - stupid mediocrities?
                        Double standards, right?
                        If all this had happened during the Soviet era, you would have whispered quietly with your wife in the kitchen at night, at most. Just like what happened about Afghanistan.

                        ZY
                        Quote: bayard
                        I was a young man when I heard about Gorbachev and his exploits in the drug trade (from Afghanistan... in those same "zinc coffins" that were later written about and even made into films)... but due to my youth treated like game... did not believe despite the high rank of the interlocutor ,
                        -
                        you did the right thing - your interlocutor was carrying deliberate nonsense. I don't know for what purpose I was impressing you, to show off, or out of stupidity...
                        At the time of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the cost of 1 kg of heroin in Kushka was from 10 to 20 rubles - there was simply no point in delivering 000-100 kg at a time, worth 150-1 million Soviet rubles. There were too few wealthy elite - there would not have been enough buyers due to the too expensive pleasure.
                      19. 0
                        9 January 2025 14: 54
                        Quote: your1970
                        Once again slowly - maybe it will get there - the depth of the German defense is from 15 to 25 km

                        The objective of the night attack was to capture the first line before dawn, which was achieved and even more. They blinded the first line in order to make it difficult to shoot at the advancing troops and thereby reduce losses and speed up the capture of difficult defensive positions on the heights. Which was achieved - the assault on the Zielov Heights occurred quickly, the enemy was demoralized, overthrown, put to flight and partly captured. The tactical move fully justified itself.
                        Quote: your1970
                        -Zhukov, who destroyed a bunch of equipment and people, is a great guy; modern ones, who had no combat experience and lost significantly less than Zhukov at ANY moment in his military career, are they stupid and incompetent?

                        Result ??
                        A victory was won at Khalqingol, which led to the Japanese retreating behind the Mongolian state border and concluding a peace treaty that was beneficial to us on OUR TERMS. It would be a sin to even talk about the significance of the Berlin Offensive Operation - it marked the end of the Great Patriotic War. And your protégés have had every chance for 3 years now, but as soon as THESE are allowed back to command at the front, they do the same thing AGAIN. Conclusion - THEY ARE UNTRAINABLE, Stalin would have demoted them to battalion commanders. Or even company commanders.
                        Gain some intelligence.
                        Quote: your1970
                        For some reason I suspect that there weren't even 5 machine guns against you - it's not the Seelow Heights

                        There was 400-500 m of demolished fence (they didn't have time to finish building a new one) and completely no lighting - the military town was completely open to storming by an UNARMED crowd, as expected in color revolution scenarios. That's why they used searchlights to disperse the rally, and not small arms, which everyone had in their hands, because Martial Law was introduced. We are talking about the EFFECTIVENESS of using searchlights to blind and demoralize the enemy. Blinding the enemy with searchlights has proven its effectiveness during a number of naval night battles, for example at Guadalcanal.

                        Quote: your1970
                        steel - not armor either in composition or in manufacturing quality, that is, 100% defective by any criteria.

                        And this "marriage" broke the enemy's back at Stalingrad, drove them all through 1943 to the Dnieper line and, having crossed the Dnieper almost immediately, drove the enemy further? Some kind of successful marriage turned out. And low-quality armor-piercing weapons somehow began to cope, and new technologies for casting tank turrets, and then hulls for the IS-2 were introduced. So once again, SLOWLY, do you have any complaints about the defense industry during the Great Patriotic War?
                        Quote: your1970
                        Your interlocutor was talking obvious nonsense.

                        You are talking nonsense, because bile is already spurting out of your ears.
                        Quote: your1970
                        At the time of withdrawal from Afghanistan, the cost of 1 kg of heroin in Kushka was from 10 to 20 rubles

                        Did you buy it?
                        Quote: your1970
                        There was simply no point in delivering 100-150 kg at a time for a batch costing 1-2 million Soviet rubles.

                        These supplies were not for the USSR, but in transit to Europe, under the control of Gorbachev and two other first secretaries of regional committees. This is a long-known fact, but as usual you defend spies, traitors and outright enemies. Both the enemies of our Motherland in the period before and during the Great Patriotic War, the Enemies of the People of the post-war period, the Enemies of the Soviet People in the late USSR, as well as the enemies, saboteurs and/or outright mediocrities of our time. Enviable consistency.
                      20. -2
                        9 January 2025 23: 13
                        Quote: bayard
                        They created the first line in order to make it difficult to fire accurately at the advancing troops and thereby reduce losses and speed up the capture of difficult defensive positions on the heights. Which was achieved - the assault on the Zielov Heights occurred quickly, the enemy was demoralized, overthrown, put to flight and partly captured. The tactical move fully justified itself.

                        justified themselves 500 shells in 000 minutes - and not light in the fog. And if you throw 1 million in an hour - then in theory you could just march and that's it..
                        Without shells - at least it would have been possible to illuminate...

                        Quote: bayard
                        A victory was won at Khalqingol, which led to the retreat of the Japanese behind the state border of Mongolia and the conclusion of a peace treaty that was beneficial to us on OUR TERMS.

                        Have you ever wondered why we entered Poland? 17.09.1939
                        And yes, later, when the non-aggression pact with Japan was concluded, the territory, based on the results of the commissions' work, was given to Japan. The same one for which Comrade Zhukov fought and destroyed tanks...
                        And yes - the commission from Moscow consisting of Mekhlis and Kulik hint that Moscow at least did not approve of Zhukov's tricks. Mekhlis was too specific a figure.

                        Quote: bayard
                        We are talking about the EFFECTIVENESS of using searchlights to blind and demoralize the enemy.
                        - if it weren't for 500 shells, then the Germans 19 320 machine guns these bulbs would have instantly extinguished. It was effective against you UNARMED crowds - you understand this yourself, if they had machine guns - searchlights would not have saved you - not to mention tanks and thousands of guns like on the Seelow Heights.


                        Quote: bayard
                        Some kind of successful marriage turned out. And the low-quality armor-piercing ones somehow began to cope,
                        -nobody knows how much less our losses would have been - if the armor-piercing shells had not been punctured, and the armor had been armor, and not raw material.
                        Given my quiet, good-natured nature, I would have put every 10th engineering and technical worker at those factories, and every single one of the quality control and military acceptance departments, on the Honor Roll and would have banned their removal.
                        Whatever they were, whatever they were - a defect, one way or another, 96%. But for the tankers who burned in NOT armored tanks and shooters NOT armor-piercing shells at the enemy - it would be nice to have at least a little bit of remembrance about them.

                        Quote: bayard
                        Did you buy it?
                        - lol lol lol helped the border guards catch lol lol


                        Quote: bayard
                        These supplies were not for the USSR, but in transit to Europe, under the control of Gorbachev and two other first secretaries of regional committees. This is a long-known fact.
                        - idiots who don't understand that Gorbachev didn't do more dirt than collapse the USSR - they are also trying to pin drugs on him in Europe... It's not even funny...
                        The drug market in Europe was divided after WWII. The outsiders who tried to make a profit by supplying large quantities of heroin would have been killed immediately or handed over to the local cops. They obviously did not have any serious protection in Europe, they were nobody there at the local gangster level. The European security forces did not need this either - they had enough of their own cash cows...
                        Everything is the same as now - the markets are divided, outsiders don't go, dumping is being cut off, only those who have been doing it for a long time or have serious protection - conditionally!! - like the US Army, survive.

                        ZY
                        Quote: bayard
                        As enemies of our Motherland in the period before and during the Great Patriotic War,

                        Quote: bayard
                        Enemies of the People of the Post-War Period

                        Quote: bayard
                        Enemies of the Soviet People in the late USSR

                        -hmm, you're old school- until the label is hung- It's difficult for you.
                        Link - where I defended pre-war, post-war and late Soviet enemies, is it possible?!!!!!
                        So that I would directly write "Tukhach/Levushka are cool", "Khrushch is a real guy and not a piece of crap", "Gorby/EBN are the best"??!!! So that my words!!
                        Only here for some reason I am sure that you will not find such a link - because you do not read your opponent but make up your own mind - having previously hung a label - for him.
                      21. 0
                        10 January 2025 00: 56
                        Quote: your1970
                        500 shells in 000 minutes paid off - not light in the fog.

                        All the measures taken and the means used justified themselves, fortunately the command had enough experience over 4 years of war. But I will repeat once again - the searchlights both ensured blinding the enemy and did not allow direct fire, and illuminated the front line for our advancing troops AT NIGHT. The enemy positions are on a chain of heights, in front of the heights there is a flat open space, it was necessary to ensure minimal losses during an attack ON OPEN TERRAIN in sight of the enemy at a sufficiently large distance. This was achieved precisely by using searchlights. Smoke and dust, although they complicated the task, nevertheless solved it - our troops quickly approached along the area illuminated by the searchlights, which blinded the enemy. It's like a fighter coming in to attack from the sun, and once again - similar techniques have been used many times in the navy during night battles, when searchlights not only illuminated the enemy ship, but also blinded its gunners. So the technique is well-known, but it was used for the first time in a land battle by advancing (!) troops.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Have you ever wondered why we entered Poland on September 17.09.1939, XNUMX?

                        Because by that time the Polish government had already left its country and we were taking back our territories lost in 1920 - the western regions of Belarus and Western Ukraine (Galicia and Volyn). But I know that at the time of signing the Non-Aggression Pact with Germany, the fighting on Khalkhin Gol was still going on.
                        Quote: your1970
                        When the non-aggression pact with Japan was concluded, the territory was transferred to Japan based on the results of the commissions' work.

                        So it turns out that Zhukov defeated the Japanese on the territory of Manchukuo?? What a fine fellow he was. And here you are cursing him with the worst words.
                        Quote: your1970
                        the commission from Moscow consisting of Mekhlis and Kulik hint that in Moscow Zhukov's tricks were at least not approved. Mekhlis was too specific a figure

                        laughing Yes, the usual commission in such cases, which, among other things, had to figure out why so many tanks burned. It figured it out - an unsuccessful magneto design that sparked strongly and ignited gasoline vapors. And actually weak armor and ... gasoline engines (aircraft engines, by the way) of the tanks. After that, the necessary measures were taken, and diesel engines began to be installed on the BT-7. As on all medium and heavy tanks. This is a textbook story.
                        And also, do you even remember WHAT rank Zhukov had then? Let me remind you - corps commander. And immediately after that he rose to the level of the General Staff. Apparently, that's how he was punished. lol For "inept command of troops" and for "an incorrectly won victory". And after that Stalin apparently "stupidly" used him as a fireman in the most important areas - to hold Leningrad and build a defense so that it remained impregnable despite the blockade ... near Moscow, when after a series of failures, having fewer forces in everything, it was possible to carry out a brilliant counteroffensive and throw the enemy back from the capital ... and in other operations. But now you will definitely give the example of the "Rzhev meat grinder" ... Right?
                        And it certainly won’t occur to you that at this time the enemy forces were being pulled away from the Stalingrad and Caucasian fronts... It happens.
                        This happens to you all the time.
                        Quote: your1970
                        It was effective for you against the UNARMED crowd - you understand this yourself, if they had had machine guns - the searchlights would not have saved you

                        They didn't have machine guns, except for the bodyguards of that "minister" (they arrived in five cars - two Volgas and three Zhiguli). And the locals would hardly have gone to storm it, because firstly the village is small, and we have the command of the radiotechnical brigade and a military airfield. Besides, they knew almost all of us there by sight, and we were many, and about fifteen warrant officers from that village. And they themselves drove those brutes away as soon as the searchlights turned on. But the fact is the fact - less than a minute had passed, and there was not a soul in the square. There were many provocations, sometimes simply brutal. In Sangachal, a child was thrown under the lead vehicle of a column of paratroopers (Lebed's division). Luckily, there was an officer at the controls and he managed to hit the brakes, but about ten vehicles got stuck in each other (they were moving in alternating order, armored and flatbed), and they then spent two weeks near our command post undergoing repairs, but while they were being repaired, they helped us ensure the safety of the runway during the evacuation of the families of the servicemen. We had a LOT of troops in Transcaucasia at the time, but even more were transferred to suppress the mutiny. Seventeen helicopter regiments alone (Mi-8, Mi-6, Mi-26, and Mi-24) arrived in one day, with 17 to 42 helicopters in each, and I provided their escort myself. So, according to the organizers, everything that was happening there was intended to provoke and cause unnecessary bloodshed. And order was restored quickly and harshly. As many participants in those events agreed, it was the last manifestation of the Great Army in all its glory and power. In terms of organization, clarity and speed of execution, demonstrated Power and Professionalism.
                        Quote: your1970
                        I would hang every 10th engineering and technical worker at those factories, and every single one of the quality control and military acceptance departments

                        Well, well, otherwise there weren't enough controllers there.
                        Quote: your1970
                        marriage, at least this way or that, is 96%.

                        Enough of this nonsense, it's already HURTING. You can't wave the same heresy around like dirty pants. All changes in the technical process were usually agreed upon, but the Front received tanks and with this the enemy was first stopped, then driven, and then finished off in the Lair. "Defective" - ​​in your opinion.
                        Quote: your1970
                        to the burnt tankers

                        As well as pilots, artillerymen, infantrymen... NOT OFFENDED.
                        Because it is NOT IN VAIN.
                        For such was the price of Victory.
                        Because they did not have time to re-equip the Army with high-quality armor-piercing weapons, with new tanks and aircraft (those that entered the troops in 1940-1941 on the eve of the war were not even properly mastered by the troops, they were not freed from "childhood diseases", everything was brought up to standard already during the War. In all fairness, we lacked about two years for readiness. 10 years from the beginning of Industrialization is too little to not only create an advanced Industry, but also to bring the latest models of military equipment to the world level, saturate the troops with them and master them for full and high-quality combat use. But since 1943, even in the conditions of evacuation and the loss of huge territories and enterprises, they were already able to.
                        But you need to dig up some kind of nastiness so that you can pollute the Country, which 10 years before the war was still digging the earth with a plough in bast shoes, and in 10 years in 1940 became the SECOND (!!) Economy in the World... with your feces.
                        After all, our Red Army was not commanded by generals-veterans of WWI. Our entire country was brand new from scratch. The management, the command personnel, the economy, the engineers and designers, they only matured during the war, and only after the Victory did they reveal themselves in all their glory.
                        Today (yesterday already) on the channel "Zvezda" a new film by Prilepin "Time Vered" in 4 parts was released. About our Soviet Country, about Stalin, about what would have happened if the Country had continued to develop according to His Plan... Zakhar and I discussed this topic in correspondence about half a year ago... on VO. And precisely on this topic. And now his film has come out. I haven't finished watching the last episode yet, now I'll finish my answer to you and finish watching it... But our communication with him then was not in vain... it didn't go down the drain. This is encouraging.
                        Quote: your1970
                        -hmm, you're old school

                        Life hardens.
                        Quote: your1970
                        where I defended enemies

                        Everywhere. And almost always.
                        Quote: your1970
                        I'm sure you won't find such a link

                        I won't even look for it, you've already written enough in this post.
                      22. -1
                        10 January 2025 16: 34
                        Quote: bayard
                        and once again - similar techniques were used more than once in the navy during night battles, when searchlights not only illuminated the enemy ship, but also blinded its gunners. So the technique is well-known, but it was used for the first time in a land battle by advancing (!) troops.

                        the discussion has gone round in circles. You don't understand that there is no land on the sea and therefore there is an effect of illumination and possible blindness??!!!
                        Once again - ask Prilepin - since you are talking to him and he will confirm to you that after 100 shells you can't see an outstretched arm across the field and what 500 shells in 000 minutes are.
                        Think about it - in the navy it's all over the place, but on land - just once and that's it?

                        Quote: bayard
                        Because by that time the Polish government had already left its country.
                        - it had nothing to do with the specific date of the Red Army's entry into Poland. Everything is clear...

                        Quote: bayard
                        Stop spouting NONSENSE, it's already HURTING. You can't wave the same heresy around like dirty pants. All changes in the technical process were usually agreed upon, but the Front received tanks and with this the enemy was first stopped, then driven, and then finished off in the Lair. "Defective" - ​​in your opinion

                        same as with Poland - you just don't know history. But you talk nonsense

                        Quote: bayard
                        "Marriage" - in your opinion.
                        - not according to me, but according to GOST. But GOST is crap, the main thing is to agree
                        Quote: bayard
                        All changes in the technical process were generally agreed upon.
                        -And you can make tanks out of cardboard. Of course, agreed...
                        I recognize the Soviet Army - the main thing is the report and the cantik...


                        Quote: bayard
                        After all, our Red Army was not commanded by generals who were veterans of WWI
                        - Why all of a sudden???
                        In my opinion, Shaposhnikov is quite sufficient, as are the other marshals of the Red Army who had officer ranks in the army of the Russian Empire - but the list is Tsar's generals in the Red Army it was unexpectedly long - more than 300 people.
                        For example, Nikolay Aleksandrovich Danilov - "from August 10, 1921 - dean of the military-economic faculty of the Military Engineering Academy. Then professor of the Military Academy of the Red Army, taught at the Leningrad Institute of Railway Engineers.
                        In 1931-1933 - inspector of the Red Army headquarters."
                        Baltiysky Alexander Alekseevich - "On June 1, 1931, he was dismissed from service, then senior head of the department of naval disciplines at the Military Transport Academy."
                        and so on
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_генералов_Русской_императорской_армии_на_службе_в_РККА
                        Naturally, they did not participate in the Great Patriotic War en masse - the generals in 1914 were at least 40 years old and by 1941 they were generally well over 60...
                        and the next since you don't know history..

                        Quote: bayard
                        I won't even look for it, you've already written enough in this post.
                        -That's exactly what I was talking about
                        Quote: your1970
                        You don't read your opponent, but you make up your mind - having previously hung a label on him.

                        In my opinion, it is precisely you, blockheads and bookworms, who are incapable of debating when faced with real life - they destroyed the USSR. They hid behind "Marxism/Charter/Moscow order" - and blinked their eyes, thinking - why...
                        Naturally, given the circumstances, the USSR was torn apart into corners
                      23. +1
                        10 January 2025 17: 52
                        Quote: your1970
                        ask Prilepin

                        What should I ask him about? He visits us (in Donbass) occasionally, and we have been at war for 11 years.
                        Quote: your1970
                        100 shells across the field are too big to be seen with an outstretched arm, and what is 500 shells in 000 minutes?

                        Once again - searchlights to illuminate the area for advancing infantry and tanks, as well as to blind the enemy, which was achieved. But according to you, it turns out that the Germans could not shoot at all because of the boom - after all, "you can't see a damn thing." No.
                        Quote: your1970
                        This had nothing to do with the specific date of the Red Army's entry into Poland.

                        Are you insisting that you were waiting for a treaty with Japan? And that was the case, no one wanted to have two military conflicts at the same time. That is why the negotiations with Japan were accelerated. But one does not exclude the other - the Polish government had abandoned the territory of its country by that time, and the Red Army entered and took back its own. And they did not covet the extra (and Germany offered). The Baltic "states" joined the USSR voluntarily and at their own request, and Romania returned Bessarabia voluntarily.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - not according to me, but according to GOST. But GOST is crap, the main thing is to agree

                        Enough of this nonsense, GOST began to be implemented as soon as it became possible. Enough of pedaling temporary deviations from GOST due to the difficulties of evacuation and the loss of Mariupol and manganese deposits.
                        Quote: your1970
                        -And you can make tanks out of cardboard. Of course, agreed...

                        Once again - stop talking nonsense.
                        Quote: your1970
                        I recognize the Soviet Army - the main thing is the report and the cantik...

                        This is your manual and grant. lol
                        Quote: your1970
                        In my opinion, Shaposhnikov is quite enough, as are the other marshals of the Red Army who had officer ranks in the army of the Russian Empire - but the list of TSAR'S generals in the Red Army is unexpectedly long - more than 300 people.

                        They were, they taught, but the overwhelming majority of generals made their initial careers during the Civil War. Yes, former non-commissioned officers, sometimes warrant officers. And Timoshenko was there. But they were nowhere near the staff of the General Staff and the top command staff of the Hitler coalition at the start of the war in terms of experience. All the experience was provided by the Great Patriotic War itself. In addition, the number of the Red Army from the mid-30s to the summer of 1941 increased by at least 10 times. Many commanders had not yet mastered their positions. The same Pavlov (who was the entire district commander) had never commanded anything larger than a brigade before. And that is exactly what I am talking about. The Red Army needed at least another 2 years to become fully ready, but they had to learn and gain experience during the war itself.
                        Quote: your1970
                        it's exactly you who are blockheads and bookworms

                        laughing Are you talking about this after the nonsense about smoke and dust on the Seelow Heights and the need to stop producing tanks if the quality of armor steel temporarily does not meet GOST standards? During the War? laughing And who is the "bookworm" here? fool
                        Quote: your1970
                        Hid behind "Marxism/Charter/Moscow order"

                        And what did the RIA generals hide behind in February 1917?
                        And I was not a general in 1991. I was quite a young, promising officer. But you and those like you had already prepared everything and were quietly rejoicing at the collapse and death of the Great Country.
                        And now you are spreading chutzpah on the website.
                        Quote: your1970
                        debate when faced with real life

                        What do you know about real life, Alien?
                        About "clever Khrushchev" and "cute Lapin"?
                        About substandard armor during the period of debugging tank production after the evacuation? Well, we got to Berlin on tanks made of such armor. And the "cuties Lapin" are not even capable of liberating Donbass in THREE years. Everything is like under Nicholas II! The stupid, lazy, thieving nobility is wasting wars and losing the "peace". "The unbearable lightness of being", it will lead to the basement of the Ipatiev House again.
                        Quote: your1970
                        The USSR was torn apart into corners

                        People like you stole it.
                        And now watch how the Russians are fighting with themselves and quietly REJOICE.
                      24. -1
                        10 January 2025 19: 02
                        Quote: bayard
                        and we have been at war for 11 years.

                        if you are at war, then you know what it is like to have at least 100 shells on a field. But since you completely reject the dustiness after shelling, you are apparently living in some OTHER war. Not a real one...

                        Quote: bayard
                        and about the need to stop producing tanks , if the quality of armor steel temporarily does not meet GOST standards? During the War? And who is the "bookworm" here?
                        hmm, as I said - you don't read the opponent - you made it up yourself, you answer for yourself. I never suggested stopping the production of tanks - how you imagined it!!!
                        I stated the fact that the armor was defective. I stated the fact that the pre-war production of 45mm shells was defective.
                        It was you who carried nonsense about "coordination" of marriage and unbelief.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And how can we be married alone, when even by the end of the war, marriage still made up 48%... so in 1941-1943, the barracks made up all 90-100%... did we win the war?

                        And the funniest thing is that you yourself write about the loss of deposits and your eyes bulge: “What defect??!!”

                        Quote: bayard
                        What do you know about real life, Alien?
                        About "clever Khrushchev"
                        - Well, for example, I know that not one of the delegates to the 20th Congress stood up and said, "Damn it, comrades!!! You're faggots if you're badmouthing Stalin!!! I wish I'd be sitting in the same hall with such idiots and disgraced myself!" And they didn't slam their party card on the floor...

                        "Khrushchev. Comrades! 1355 delegates with a decisive vote and 81 delegates with an advisory vote have been elected to the XNUMXth Party Congress.
                        I declare the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union open. (Stormy, prolonged applause. Everyone stands.)
                        Comrades! During the period between the 19th and 20th Congresses we lost the most prominent figures of the communist movement: Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin, Klement Gottwald and Kyuichi Tokuda. Please honor their memory by standing. (Everyone stands.) Please sit down."
                        - and went to pour feces on Stalin. Although his own hands were covered in blood...
                        Well, and "stormy, prolonged applause" throughout the entire congress
                        Every nation deserves the kind of government that it has....

                        Quote: bayard
                        The stupid, lazy, thieving nobility wastes wars and loses the "peace".
                        -They screwed up the USSR TOO - just in case...
                        Because if the security forces cannot work with the elites, Any elite and любые the security forces are becoming lazy, stupid and corrupt
                      25. +1
                        10 January 2025 20: 30
                        Quote: your1970
                        -They screwed up the USSR TOO

                        It wasn't them, it was yours who worked - Trotskyites, Khrushchevites, Andropovites, Gorbachevites. Well, now there are already quite enough former surnames in the nobility. And they are screwing up again.
                        Quote: your1970
                        hmm, as I said, you don’t read your opponent - you made it up yourself and you answer for yourself.

                        Oh oh smile
                        Who was it that claimed that he would hang all the engineers and technologists of that plant? For failure to comply with the armor steel recipe? On some board? And that it was "unacceptable" to produce such tanks?
                        So what does this mean?
                        That without the ability to obtain high-quality armor steel after a hasty evacuation... winked WHAT? Were they obliged to stop production?
                        And how much did the steel lose in strength? By 20%? By 30%? Did you know that the cast turrets of the T-34 and the turrets and hulls of the IS-2 had a strength 20%+ less than that of rolled steel? Because they are cast! Maybe this is also a defect?
                        And the IS-3 turrets?
                        And the towers of the T-54, T-55, T-62, T-64, T-72, T-80?
                        After all, their turrets are less durable than welded turrets made from rolled armor plates.
                        Stop shitting under the door and screaming that "this is unbearable."
                        Quote: your1970
                        I have established the fact of defects in pre-war production of 45mm shells.

                        This is a well-known case, and it was known then. Only the industry could not produce armor-piercing anti-tank missiles. And properly hardened shells were not produced then. Solutions were sought and found. Our Industrialization began 10 years before the war, many technological processes were still being mastered, there were not enough specialists. That is why Stalin was stalling for time, in order to properly prepare the Army. And you started to run away from the door with my instruction that Voroshilov, as Deputy Supreme Commander-in-Chief, headed the defense industry then (on the eve of the Great Patriotic War), he, together with Beria, prepared the evacuation of industry beyond the Urals and the launch of these industries in new places. And when asked "complaints about the work of the Defense Industry during the War", you went off. "Defective, but I would be for that." No. And this was a period of establishment of production in new places.
                        I could also talk about defective aircraft (fighters), and about the falsifications on them by the Minister of Aviation Industry in collusion with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force. Do you know that after the war they were tried and shot? But no one was tried for substandard armor in 1942 or even in 1943. At least I don’t know about it. But we got through two of the hardest years with those same “substandard” tanks. And as soon as the industry started working at full capacity in 1943 (and especially in 1944), the front rolled westward.
                        But you howl - "my pile stinks, it's unbearable!!", "Bunglers, they ruined the soldiers". But for those soldiers it was much more convenient to fight with those same tanks than without them at all. And they thanked Industry for this.
                        But you don't howl that Shoyga and Co. screwed up and stole mobilization reserves, didn't provide secure communications, a reserve of rounds for ATGMs, didn't carry out timely mobilization, but stubbornly ruined the Small Army in battles with vastly superior enemy forces. You defend Lapin. And other ignoramuses.
                        And blame your defecation on Zhukov, while you yourself don’t even stand for his trimmed nail.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - Well, for example, I know that not one of the delegates to the 20th Congress stood up and said, "Oh, my God, comrades!!! You're faggots if you're badmouthing Stalin!!! I wish I'd be sitting in the same hall with such idiots and disgracing myself!!"

                        I heard about something else - about the reaction of party members to Khrushchev's heresy. For them, everything that was happening was such a shock and unreality that they just shook their heads, saying "the Party is fucked with such scum". In addition, Stalin's most reliable cadres had already been removed, demoted, many were convicted on trumped-up charges (like Sudoplatov). And Khrushchev also organized the reduction of the Army for the sake of conducting hidden purges. Just like in 2008 under Taburetkin. Only Khrushchev purged the Army and the organs of loyal Stalinists, and Taburetkin "purged the Army of the Soviets".
                        Quote: your1970
                        (Stormy, prolonged applause. Everyone stands up)

                        There was no "applause" after Khrushch's report - they dispersed silently. But Khrushch's henchmen also tried to select deputies. So that this pig's neck wouldn't be broken right in the hall.
                        Quote: your1970
                        If you are at war, then you know what it is like to have at least 100 shells fired across a field.

                        I know. Do you know? Especially if it's not the Negev desert, but spring fields, damp earth covered with fresh grass and vegetation. It's about "dust in a column and smoke in a yoke."
                      26. WIS
                        0
                        10 January 2025 21: 10
                        Quote: bayard
                        And you started to run under the door on my orders.

                        I like you both, nice discussion.
                        Just don't ask: Who's here?
                        Is it really possible that at the current stage, “without the ideological development of our state,” society as a whole, due to the fault of those in power, someone can be amused by such showdowns of mistakes or simply shortcomings committed by someone from the past, at a time when there is an opportunity to act differently!?
                      27. 0
                        10 January 2025 21: 45
                        Quote from WIS
                        Just don't ask: Who's here?

                        Conspiracy?
                        Quote from WIS
                        at the moment when there is an opportunity to act differently!?

                        Well, I already have difficulties with acting differently, but I have been showing off on the "Peacemaker" website since January 2015. So there were actions, both this way and that way. And with this guy it's just chatter.
                      28. -2
                        11 January 2025 00: 31
                        Quote: bayard
                        Who was it who claimed that he would hang all the engineers and technologists of that plant?

                        Yeah, but here's the rub - I was writing about marriage. pre-war shells when he spoke about hanging engineering and technical personnel.
                        But you, as usual, brought your own story to me.
                        I will repeat for you once again - I never wrote that it was necessary to stop the production of tanks during the war. I stated that steel was not armor and in fact it was a defect.

                        Quote: bayard
                        But you don't howl that Shoyga and Co. screwed up and stole the mobilization reserves.
                        booga, holy Voroshilov - moved further away from the army - managed to sow 320 tanks and 500 armored cars somewhere. And such a trifle as a mobilization plan in the Red Army simply did not exist with him. Even the exact number of the Red Army was unknown lol
                        And as for rifles that are not cleaned to the point of being unsuitable for shooting...
                        But he is SOVIET (practically a saint) - so his mess cannot be compared with the current one...

                        Quote: bayard
                        the reaction of the party members to the Khrushchev heresy. For them, everything that was happening was such a shock and unreality that they just shook their heads, saying "the Party is screwed with such scumbags"
                        then these party members continued to shake their cabbage heads for another 30 years - until they destroyed the USSR.


                        Quote: bayard
                        blame your defecation on Zhukov, while you yourself don’t even have to stand for his trimmed nail.
                        -
                        That's why Stalin politely kicked this genius out with a kick in the ass. Or they could have shot him - the Criminal Code article for looting allowed it, it was before the death penalty.
                        And it was Khrushchev, whom you hated so much, who brought this genius back. A bit strange, isn't it?
                        And yes, his looting and Rokossovsky’s characteristics are quite enough for me to understand his essence.
                        And I am sure that if given such an opportunity, Rokossovsky would have done just as well.

                        You've tired me out - I realized that it was I, in the company of 5 General Secretaries, who destroyed the USSR.
                        You don’t provide any arguments or facts, you just distort things and attribute to me things I didn’t write.
                        Are you one of the political officers by any chance?
                      29. 0
                        11 January 2025 02: 21
                        Quote: your1970
                        Are you one of the political officers by any chance?

                        From combat control.
                        Quote: your1970
                        nastiness - I wrote

                        You are so tireless in your mischief...
                        Quote: your1970
                        I never wrote that it was necessary to stop the production of tanks during the war.

                        Whatever you write No. it turns out to be nothing but nastiness.
                        Quote: your1970
                        boogaha saint Voroshilov - moved away from the army

                        Yeah - Deputy Supreme Commander-in-Chief, second in command at Headquarters. And to lead the entire defense industry because the war was approaching. And he did just fine - just before the war, he took charge of the defense industry and we got tanks, planes, guns and new generation ammunition. For those same one and a half years won. They won the war with them.

                        Quote: your1970
                        managed to somehow sow 320 tanks and 500 armored vehicles.

                        Are you again in your delirium piling up another pile? No.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And such a trifle as a mobilization plan in the Red Army simply did not exist. Even the exact number of the Red Army was unknown.

                        It was under him that new regulations were adopted and mobilization plans were drawn up. And how mobilization was carried out in the USSR is beyond the memory of today. And the mobilization of the Economy, and the evacuation of defense and all industrial enterprises were carried out with such brilliance - from under the noses of the advancing Wehrmacht troops. Today's quadrobers could not even dream of such a thing.
                        And in Leningrad, when the Germans approached him, he led the evacuation of defense enterprises. If necessary, he temporarily led the front, stopped the Germans on the approaches to the city and handed over command to Zhukov. His tasks then included the evacuation of industry beyond the Urals and the deployment of production at new industrial sites. And new factories at those sites were built precisely in the last 1,5 years before the war, and power plants, and networks were connected, and roads to them. Some workshops did not even have time to close back then, but production began immediately after unloading from the stock that had been brought in. This is an organization! These are not festive matinees for fun during the war.

                        Quote: your1970
                        And as for rifles that are not cleaned to the point of being unsuitable for shooting...

                        Have you cleaned yours, Anika-Warrior?
                        Quote: your1970
                        His mess can't be compared to the current one...

                        It is difficult to compare with the current one. Of course, we can keep silent about the rusty machine guns for the mobilized and the lack of clothing supplies in 2022 and the first half of 2023. And if back then there simply wasn't enough, there was (in the early 30s) no industry, no experience, no personnel. And the Army was tiny, and for the sake of saving money... a territorial formation... a kind of semi-partisan militia. Then in the RF Armed Forces they simply stole, but in the statements and reports everything was listed as available.
                        The Red Army began to grow in numbers, modernize and receive modern weapons only from the mid-30s - following the results of the 1st Five-Year Plan. When new factories started working. Before that, there was post-revolutionary semi-partisanship. From the mid-30s, the Red Army was created practically from scratch. Only the Enemy, who is putting another pile under the door, can "not know" and "not understand" this.
                        Quote: your1970
                        then these party members continued to shake their cabbage heads for another 30 years - until they destroyed the USSR.

                        Party members came to congresses from their factories back then; there were no parasitic deputies back then.
                        And all those dissatisfied with Khrushchev's actions were purged from the leadership, from the elected bodies, and sometimes from the party. After 10 years, the blockhead was finally removed and sent into retirement. But they were his own, all tainted with a conspiracy against Stalin and the blood of Beria, whom they had killed. And "dear Leonid Ilyich" was also tainted with this. That is why all the decisions to eliminate Khrushchev's innovations were so ... half-hearted. And he ended up in power essentially by accident - they put him in as a temporary, transitional figure, but he removed the security officials who wanted to restore Stalin's norms from power and installed as head of the KGB ... his "faithful" (as it seemed to him) friend Andropov, who had NO relation to these bodies AT ALL. And this turned out to be his main mistake.
                        Quote: your1970
                        That's why Stalin politely kicked this genius in the ass.

                        He kicked out correctly - the star disease of banopartism and intemperance in trophies - did not paint the Minister of Defense in a good light. And Zhorik chatted too much at the feasts.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And it was Khrushchev, whom you hated so much, who brought this genius back.

                        He needed Zhukov to deal with Beria. He was terrified of him. And he received an order from London - to exterminate him. For this purpose, Zhukov pulled in generals loyal to him (including Brezhnev) and Beria was simply killed. All the tales about the "arrest", "investigation", some of his "testimony", nonsense about hordes of mistresses and other abominations were made up on Khrushchov's orders and in order to spread "reliable rumors" they carried out a very cunning operation - all senior officers (I won't say about the generals, I don't know, but from the major and above from eyewitnesses) were summoned one by one to the Special Department and, under a non-disclosure agreement, were given "excerpts from the court materials" to read about "the monstrous immorality of Comrade Beria's crimes". And many of those "initiated" into such secrets really believed that he had been given top secret materials about the true moral character of Marshal Beria. But this was simply a specially fabricated lie.
                        Zhorik was called back from his "Ural exile" and offered a deal - you take down Beria, who is about to return from Germany, and we immediately return him to the post of Minister of Defense. And Zhorik agreed, without really getting into it. Everything suited him.
                        I wrote about Zhukov above as a military leader and commander, but not about his moral character. For me, the example of a real commander is rather Rokosovsky. But "moral character" did not reduce and certainly does not cancel out the military talents.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Rokossovsky's characteristics are quite sufficient for me to understand his essence.

                        Have you read this description?
                        Rokosovsky gave Zhukov an excellent character reference as a commander, but at the same time indicated that he was not suitable for staff and teaching work. This is a character reference about SPECIALIZATION. That he could easily handle career growth along the command line, but not along the staff line. Which, in principle, was confirmed in practice. Staff work requires somewhat different qualities than command work. It is different. Simply different.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Rokossovsky would have done just as well

                        Rokossovsky was released from the NKVD dungeons just before the war and barely had time to recover. He simply did not have time to prove himself in high command positions. His career took place during the war itself. But the brilliantly planned and executed operations to encircle Paulus's troops and the simply spectacularly successful Belarusian Offensive Operation certainly indicate that he would have coped. And no worse. And in a number of cases, most likely even better. But history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood; Rokossovsky's star rose in all its glory at the end of the war.
                        Quote: your1970
                        You're boring me

                        You me too.
                        But your fresh piles under the door... do not leave anyone indifferent.
                      30. -1
                        11 January 2025 12: 56
                        Quote: bayard
                        From combat control.

                        and you write like a dyed-in-the-wool political deputy from the USSR era - with naked slogans...
                        The great and brilliant Voroshilov:
                        Quote: bayard
                        It was under him that New the statutes were adopted, and mobilization plans have been drawn up .

                        "Act on the acceptance of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR Comrade Timoshenko S.K. from Comrade Voroshilov K.E.
                        In pursuance of the Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR of May 8, 1940, No. 690, during the reception of the People's Commissariat of Defense by Comrade Timoshenko from Comrade Voroshilov in the presence of Comrades Zhdanov, Malenkov and Voznesensky, reports were heard from the heads of the central departments and the following was established:
                        ..............
                        1. The current regulation on the People's Commissariat of Defense, approved by the Government in 1934, obsolete, does not correspond to the existing structure and does not reflect the modern tasks assigned to the People's Commissariat of Defense.
                        5. Control over the execution of orders and decisions issued by the Government was not sufficiently organized. There was no living, effective leadership in training the troops. On-site inspections were not carried out as a system and were replaced by receiving paper reports.
                        1. By the time of the acceptance and surrender of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, there was no operational plan of war, operational plans, both general and private, were not developed and lacked.The General Staff has no information about the state of border coverage. belay
                        1. The People's Commissariat does not have a precise determination of the actual number of the Red Army at the time of acceptance. belay
                        3. The regulations on the service of privates and junior command personnel, issued in 1931, are outdated and unsuitable for management belay , and nobody uses it. belay
                        1. In connection with the war and a significant redeployment of troops, the mobilization plan was violated. The People's Commissariat of Defense does not have a new mobilization plan. belay

                        2. The People's Commissariat of Defense has not yet eliminated the following shortcomings of the mobilization plan, which were revealed during the implementation partial mobilization fellow in September 1939:
                        a) the extreme neglect of the registration of military reserve personnel, since a re-registration has not been carried out since 1927( belay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) years; belay
                        ...
                        c) the weakness and lack of work of the military commissariats; belay
                        d) lack of priority in the mobilization of units, which led to an overload of the first days of mobilization;
                        e) the unreality of plans for the deployment of troops during mobilization;
                        e) the unreality of the plan for the supply of uniforms during mobilization;
                        .......
                        The state of registration of aircraft and engines is unsatisfactory, and high-quality registration is completely unorganized and not conducted.
                        The issues of service of flight and technical personnel have not been worked out, as a result of which, since 1938, there has been an incorrect situation when Red Army soldiers on active military service after a year of study in schools junior specialists(!!!!) are issued by category middle(!!!!) commanding(!!!!) staff(!!!).
                        The organization of intelligence is one of the weakest areas in the work of the People's Commissariat of Defense. There is no organized intelligence and systematic receipt of data on foreign armies.
                        3. Mobilization application 1937/38 belay gg. is outdated and requires revision.
                        The military economy continues to remain in a state of neglect. Accounting and reporting on property is not established. belay
                        In matters of supply and economic management, the troops are guided by a large number of orders of the People's Commissariat of Defense issued over the past two decades. A large number of units, especially those formed in recent years, do not have these orders. belay

                        There is no proper order in the expenditure, accounting and reporting of food and forage in the units. belay

                        The experience of the war showed that military councils and district supply chiefs do not know the actual provision and needs of the units belay in the property. That's why the units were sent to the front unsecured or oversecured on exaggerated requests and abandoned belay property during the performance.

                        The 1935 Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) on the creation of the "Defense - a Cart with Harness" fund has not been implemented. The Directorate of Cart and Economic Supply and the Main Directorate of Management did not control or achieve belay creation of this fund.

                        5. As of 1.1.40, there were 64 party candidates with expired service in the army, of which 797 had 8 years of candidate service and 3135 had 10 years of service.

                        6. The Political Directorate violates the procedure for issuing documents established by the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) 10-day the term of party documents accepted into the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) and delays this issuance for a period up to a year. belay 9166 party cards and 16 candidate cards have not yet been issued. The Political Directorate violated three-month reporting period and did not report to the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) 211 000 issued party documents.



                        well okay "the great and brilliant Voroshilov" didn't know the size of the Red Army, didn't have plans, didn't conduct training, didn't see any accounting at all in principle - but how, how the hell could a party organizer have a party card year (!!!!!!!!!!!) write???
                        And there are also appendices and reports from the Directorates - there are reports about the absence of 320 tanks and 500 aircraft, about 700 AWOLs in the division (4 people in total) in one night, about rifles uncleaned to the point of being unusable for shooting and many, many more funny things.

                        Voroshilov was saved from the tower solely because of his participation in the "Defense of Tsaritsyn" cooperative lol - anyone else would have received a bullet in a couple of positions of the Act.
                      31. 0
                        11 January 2025 14: 14
                        What are we laughing at? Haven't you seen revolutionary armies? In a revolutionary state, where the entire system of state and military administration had just been replaced? After a series of purges in 1937-1938, when the entire command staff of the Army was combed through, as well as a bunch of innocent military leaders, according to the slander of the Trotskyists. However, Beria came to the NKVD in the fall of 1938, and order began to be restored. Here Timoshenko with his experience of working in the General Staff of the Republic of Ingushetia came in handy, and the cases of other military leaders, after being reviewed by Beria's commission, were returned from the dungeons. The experience of the Winter War again revealed many shortcomings, and (what a miracle for the revolutionary Red Army) in just 1,5 years it was possible to largely correct and eliminate them, and during the Great Patriotic War this decisively helped to overcome the most difficult 1941 and the unsuccessful 1942. The problems of the growth and maturation of the Red Army from a revolutionary militia into a mature military force of the Soviet Army.
                        Voroshilov? A hero of the Civil War, without any quotation marks, an ardent revolutionary, a participant in the Second Party Congress, where he met and became friends with Stalin, and with Lenin. By that time, he already had to his credit the seizure and retention of power by the Bolsheviks in the industrial provincial city of Lugansk. And during the Civil War itself, he was a Legend with a capital L - on charisma, will and a lively mind. And the defense of Tsaritsyn was only an episode of that period. But every war has its heroes, its commanders. And you somehow bypassed the topic ... the chief of the General Staff of the Red Army. Whose responsibilities included the preparation of regulatory documentation, the organization of intelligence, the drafting and improvement of charters ... So why the claims against the minister (although this is fair), who should be more involved in the defense industry? So Voroshilov switched to the defense industry. And also, does anyone remember the name of the USSR Minister of Defense during the Great Patriotic War? Oops... but everyone remembers and knows the heads of the General Staff. And what kind of claims are these about "no plans for border defense"? And where is the General Staff? Shot? For what? For treason and collusion with the enemy? And how many accomplices did he have? And isn't that why such a mess appeared in the Army under them? And isn't that why they dealt with these conspirators so harshly and harshly? After all, their previous (and still de facto) leader Trotsky was already actively collaborating with Hitler, had already received the "True Aryan Diploma" from Goebbels and had already handed over his entire network of agents in the Red Army, the party and state apparatus to German intelligence. So, not only negligence and incompetence, but also to a significant extent SABOTAGE in the command staff of the Red Army took place, and the above, including the consequences thereof.
                        All this is the process of transformation of the "revolutionary state" and "revolutionary army" into the State and Army of the classical type. With all the internal squabbles, intra-party struggle and the process of promoting professionals and removing loudmouths and slackers.
                        It was a complex process of formation of a young state, and the Exam for its solvency, this State and its Army took place in 1941-1945. And they passed this exam (the State and the Army) with honor, having defeated the best armies of fascist Europe. Here, as in Sports - how a fighter prepared for a fight and what difficulties he experienced with it, is a third matter, the main thing is the Fight itself and its Result. The result was Victory, the creation of the World System of Socialism, the creation of the Military Bloc of the Warsaw Pact countries, the CMEA and the nuclear bomb in 1949.
                        And the problems of the coubertate age during the period of maturation, this is of course interesting and instructive, but this is simply the nature of things. As a result of practical tests by the War, our Economy turned out to be stronger, the Army more resilient and capable of self-training, development, improvement, our commanders are more talented (of course, when they have gained practical experience) and the best illustration of this was the brilliantly conducted Belorussian and Berlin offensive operations.
                        Quote: your1970
                        anyone else would have received a bullet in a couple of positions of the Act.

                        So Tukhachevsky and his conspirators each received a bullet.
                      32. -1
                        11 January 2025 16: 51
                        Quote: bayard
                        What are we laughing about?

                        Well, that's it.... Here one comrade stood up for Voroshilov with his chest.
                        Quote: bayard
                        It was under him that new regulations were adopted and mobilization plans were drawn up. And how mobilization was carried out in the USSR is beyond the memory of today.

                        And suddenly bam and the team of comrade.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Timoshenko in the presence of comrades Zhdanov, Malenkov and Voznesensky
                        - says "And comrade Voroshilov destroyed everything to hell!!" And piled it on the door - they probably learned it from me
                        Quote: bayard
                        And also, does anyone remember the name of the USSR Minister of Defense during WWII? Oops.
                        And what Oops? What's wrong?

                        Slowly for you personally - the act is written in 1940 and there haven't been any for 1 years...
                        Quote: bayard
                        oh, a miracle for the revolutionary Red Army) in just 1,5 years it was possible to correct and eliminate many things,
                        that is, they haven't kept records of those liable for military service since 1927, and then bam, they fixed it? The same people who 1940 They didn't do anything about mobilization - did they correct themselves in the fall of 1941?

                        Quote: bayard
                        So Tukhachevsky and his conspirators each received a bullet.
                        The problem is that they were slapped a long time ago by the time the Act was written - the genius Voroshilov ruled the NPO for 4 years....

                        Quote: bayard
                        And what are these claims about "no plans to defend the borders"? And where is the General Staff? Shot? For what? For treason and collusion with the enemy? And how many accomplices did he have? And isn't that why such a mess appeared in the Army under them?
                        - mmmm. belay belay
                        Who are you crumbling the loaf of bread for?
                        On Shaposhnikov - whom Stalin respected or on Zhukov - for whom you threw yourself at me? Or they both together did you screw up the assigned task and didn't do any work?
                        You should make up your mind - otherwise your accusation of Zhukov for what I accused him of looks somehow strange...
                      33. 0
                        11 January 2025 19: 15
                        Quote: your1970
                        Here one comrade stood up for Voroshilov with his chest

                        And what's wrong with the "First Marshal"? A hero of the Civil War, an old party member, a participant in the 2nd Congress of the RSDLP, he headed the NKO not as a military specialist, but as a representative of the party, he exercised control over the military department so that Trotsky's chicks would not frolic too much. He had no military education - a natural born of the Civil War. As a former factory worker, he wanted to deal more with industrial issues, including defense. That's what he moved to do.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And suddenly bam and the team of comrade.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Timoshenko, in the presence of comrades Zhdanov, Malenkov and Voznesensky, says, "And comrade Voroshilov ruined everything to hell and back!!"

                        Yeah. And immediately for a promotion. Stop lying! I described the reasons for the mess above, they are well-known and understandable to everyone. The army only began to turn into a more or less serious force in the mid-30s, before that all military plans in the event of external aggression from the enemy coalition implied ... a transition to guerrilla warfare methods. There were no funds or resources. That is why there was no registration of those liable for military service. And the Red Army was mainly on a territorial staffing ... Red Army soldiers often simply lived in their homes, and went to service as if to work. And then, over the course of 5-6 years, the number of the Red Army increased from "about 500 thousand" to 5 bayonets. With tens of thousands of tanks (300 units) and armored vehicles (with machine gun and cannon armament). With one of the most numerous Air Forces in the world. With a Navy for which cruisers and battleships were suddenly built at several shipyards at once. And just a few years ago - cavalry, tachankas and infantry on foot. And command staff in the appropriate quantity and quality. On the one hand, dizziness from the success of the first five-year plans, on the other hand - command staff with experience of the Civil War. Yesterday, the maximum was accounting for horse-drawn transport, and today the formation of tank corps.
                        And yet the Finnish campaign was completed quite quickly - neither England nor France managed to gather and transfer their troops to help the White Finns - the Mannerheim Line was taken, a territorial buffer for Leningrad was secured, Finland accepted all the conditions of the USSR. And all the shortcomings revealed by this war were analyzed and corrected over the next 1,5 years.
                        Quote: your1970
                        the act was written in 1940 and there have been no1. 5 years....

                        Slowly, personally for you - we look at the date of the act and count to 22.06.1941. Those same 1,5 years. And already in the fall-winter of 1941, the Red Army in sheepskin coats, earflaps (instead of Budenovkas), in felt boots and on skis. Hot meals in field kitchens, the work of medical battalions and field hospitals is debugged like clockwork, soldiers regularly wash in the bathhouse and change their linen - the experience of WWI was taken into account. Gradually, combat aircraft and tanks are equipped with radios.
                        Quote: your1970
                        pile up on the door - they probably learned it from me

                        No, it's yours. You just need to change your glasses.
                        Quote: your1970
                        The same people who did nothing about mobilization in 1940

                        Quiet, quiet Sirozha, these who supposedly "nothing" by this point have already won THREE companies (wars):
                        - Halkingol,
                        - Polish company,
                        - Finnish company.
                        The shortcomings were revealed and by June 22.06.1941, XNUMX, the vast majority of them had been corrected. The army was gaining experience, becoming more complex structurally, and new command personnel were identified and promoted. It was necessary to strengthen control and quality of management of the military-industrial complex and prepare enterprises in the European part of the country for evacuation beyond the Urals. This is what Voroshilov was doing. And Beria's department helped him with this (especially with the beginning of the war). They managed to build new factory buildings beyond the Urals, and power plants, roads and communications, and the whole world was amazed at how organized and fast the evacuation was. This is why Voroshilov was transferred to a new position and at the same time became the Second Person at Headquarters - Stalin's first deputy.
                        And here is your nonsense and another pile at the door.
                        Quote: your1970
                        - mmmm.
                        Who are you crumbling the loaf of bread for?
                        On Shaposhnikov - whom Stalin respected, or on Zhukov - for whom you attacked me?

                        He respected Shaposhnikov Yes , Zhukov - appreciated Yes , but with Voroshilov - he was friends from his youth, knew him and trusted him. That is why he entrusted him with such a serious task - to prepare Industry for Evacuation in the conditions of the beginning of the war and the launch of production in new places. And all this was done with the utmost secrecy. The American embassy knew that a huge number of duplicate factories were being built beyond the Urals and in Siberia and were waiting for a new wave of orders for machine tools and equipment ... but they did not come. Then they mistakenly believed that the USSR was counting on equipping new factories with machine tools and equipment of its own production ... and this was preparation for evacuation.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Who are you crumbling the loaf of bread for?

                        On you Sirozha, on you.
                        Because the lack of plans for border defense is about the New Borders in the west of the country, which the USSR reached. And they appeared in this form for us precisely at the end of 1939 - 1940. laughing You're back in your own pile under the door, you've plunged in. You need to be more careful. You're spinning like a grass snake on a frying pan. Only it's not a frying pan, it's a baking sheet. You can't jump off it.
                        And all plans for securing the new (and old) borders were drawn up in a timely manner. New border fortifications were built, troops from the western districts were deployed in two echelons, and the Third Strategic Echelon was formed.
                        Zhukov really screwed up in the first phase of the war, when he tried to turn the tide with counterattacks, to launch flank attacks, to wage a war of maneuver... but he lost. Against the German General Staff, well-trained infantry, amazing inter-service interaction, excellent communications, superb mobility (all infantry on wheels) and numerical superiority... Zhukov had newly formed tank corps, with which he tried to undercut the flanks of the advancing enemy groups. But he did not succeed. And because he drove our large groups to the very border on the eve of the war (although Stalin gave him clear orders to withdraw the main forces from the border, so as not to expose them to the first blow), our entire armies and army groups ended up in giant cauldrons. In fact, the majority of the regular Army was defeated, destroyed, captured during the battles of the summer and autumn of 1941. Zhukov then overestimated his own talents and the capabilities of our Army. This is what can and should be blamed on him.
                        But he later corrected all his previous mistakes. Because he was young then for the Chief of General Staff, and Rokossovsky's characterization in this part turned out to be correct. Command positions, not staff positions, suited him better. So Stalin sent him to the most important areas during the war.
                        If a guy plays the accordion well, it is not a fact that he will play the piano just as well. Talent also has its own specialization. And character traits.
                        Quote: your1970
                        accusing Zhukov of what I accused him of...

                        You accused him of stupidity. Confusing the dry sands and loams of the Negev desert with the wet spring (April) fields at the Seelow Heights.
                      34. -2
                        11 January 2025 23: 22
                        Quote: bayard
                        And what's wrong with the "First Marshal"? A hero of the Civil War, an old party member, a participant in the 2nd Congress of the RSDLP, he headed the NKO not as a military specialist, but as a party representative, he exercised control over the military department so that Trotsky's chicks would not frolic too much.

                        no, everything's fine.
                        The problem is that if you change the dates and the People's Commissariat to the Ministry, you would scream like a half-killed person "Shoot!!! No - hang!!! No - burn alive!!"....
                        and this is 100% a fact - this is exactly how you would treat this Act.
                        You shouldn't make excuses like, "Well, he's a builder, he didn't serve in the army, he's more of an organizational guy" - how? are trying get Voroshilov off the hook.

                        Quote: bayard
                        Slowly, personally for you - we look at the date of the act and count to 22.06.1941/1,5/XNUMX. Those same XNUMX years.

                        You have the same problems with the calendar as with reading - there is no way 07.05.1940 years could have passed from 22.06.1941/1,5/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. Physically...
                        It was 1,5 years in November 1941...
                        But this is still a trifle - as usual when you drag an owl onto a globe...

                        And yes - if the People's Commissariat dealt with all the problems in 1 year and 2 months
                        Quote: bayard
                        the vast majority of them were corrected by 22.06.1941.
                        -then it means one thing: People's Commissar Voroshilov previous 4 years before the Act was written I was kicking the can down the road, but People's Commissar Timoshenko fixed it in 1 year and 2 months.

                        Once again, slowly - a boss who is unable to make people do what they are required to do for 4 years and then do the same thing in 1 year and 2 months under another boss - complete crap as a leader and wasted his time in his position.
                        This applies to all times and organizations, including the present.
                        But you can criticize the current ones - but the Soviet ones are sacred, even the birds pooped marshmallows there. How could I think that Voroshilov simply fucked everything up, everything he could, and stupidly sat behind Stalin's back???!!

                        Quote: bayard
                        You accused him of stupid things.
                        - Oh, no. You're distorting things as usual. You had some kind of complaints about the Chief of General Staff of the Red Army.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And what is this claim about "no plans for border defense" ? And where? GSh ? Shot? For what? For treason and collusion with the enemy? And how many accomplices did he have? And isn't that why such a mess appeared in the Army under them? And isn't that why they dealt with these conspirators so harshly and harshly?

                        Or are you accusing the commission of bias - slandering the holy man comrade Voroshilov?
                      35. -1
                        12 January 2025 01: 47
                        Quote: your1970
                        you would scream like a half-killed person "Shoot!!! No - hang!!! No - burn alive!!

                        laughing I can't stand these sounds, but you made me laugh.
                        Quote: your1970
                        You shouldn't make excuses like "he's a builder, he didn't serve in the army, he's more of an organizational guy" - like you're trying to make excuses for Voroshilov.

                        Oh Sirozha, burn with napalm laughing
                        There it is, where the dogs rummaged - you tear Kuzhugetych’s trousers. laughing It’s ridiculous.
                        But the funniest thing is that the Tuvan "marshal" almost destroyed the Little Army entrusted to him by the beginning of autumn 2022, demonstrating all the brilliance of his "talents" and only the status of a "prince of the blood" and the immunity of a "family member" ... however, "we are not 37th". You have to bet - Voroshilov is comparable to Shoiga. bully
                        By that time, in a short period of time as head of the military department, Voroshilov had won victories in THREE wars:
                        - Halkingol,
                        - Polish company, when the USSR grew ZU and ZB,
                        - The Finnish company, when we moved the border away from Leningrad, took the ENTIRE Mannerheim Line and concluded peace on their own terms, not allowing England and France to interfere in the conflict.
                        Oh yes - there was also Bessarabia, also known as the Moldavian SSR, which was returned to the USSR. But there was no war with it at all.
                        Somehow the comparison with Shoyga is not very good... And not at all with Lapin...
                        Quote: your1970
                        you have the same problems with the calendar as with reading - from 07.05.1940/22.06.1941/1,5 to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX is no way XNUMX years

                        Well, they started summing up the results of the Finnish campaign earlier, and correcting them accordingly. So, exactly 1,5 years. Many issues were already being resolved during the campaign itself, heavy tanks were dragged in to pick at the Finnish pillboxes. They even mounted an 35" gun on the T-8 chassis, but it didn't make it to the war, the KV-2 managed there. This was in such conditions - in winter, in Budenovkas and boots, through forests and swamps, but they broke into and took one of the best-equipped long-term defense lines. And they did it quickly. Wagner took longer to take Artemovsk/Bakhmut. What miracles - Voroshilov did and won, but Shoiga couldn't. But he built a temple... gloomy, in the backyards... It would have been better to become a builder.
                        Quote: your1970
                        And yes - if the People's Commissariat dealt with all the problems in 1 year and 2 months

                        So it wasn't such a big deal, right?
                        I don’t look at reference books when I talk to you, I rely solely on my memory and personal knowledge.
                        Quote: your1970
                        People's Commissar Voroshilov had been kicking his ass for the previous 4 years before the Act was written,

                        No, Sirozha, he was building the Army. It was actively growing in numbers, receiving new weapons systems, military towns, barracks, training grounds, housing for the command staff. None of that existed. It was all being built, deployed, and Trotsky's henchmen were just messing around, sabotaging, and... yes, yes - kicking ass. Like Yakir in the Far East.
                        Quote: your1970
                        and People's Commissar Timoshenko corrected this in 1 year and 2 months.

                        So it means that not much had to be corrected. Especially since Timoshenko is a well-educated officer of the General Staff of the Russian Empire, so he had the cards in his hands. The Red Army then was expanding from a Small Army to a Big Army just like now. Only the pace was much higher, and the starting base was orders of magnitude lower. Can you even imagine from what number to WHAT by the spring of 1940 the Red Army expanded? And what were the problems of such rapid growth? Here, professionals had to deal with both personnel and the registration of those liable for military service, because then the law on service in the Army was changed so that those who had not served in the Army - up to 27 years old - could be called up for military service without any mobilization.
                        And Voroshilov, after that commission, was promoted. Not "behind Stalin's back", but to prepare the defense industry for the imminent and inevitable war, for the Evacuation. And this task was certainly no less important than establishing order in the rapidly growing Army. It was as if it were no more important, because an Army without weapons, ammunition and a reliable Rear is not capable of fighting. And in this part, Voroshilov worked both in the remaining pre-war period and during the war itself, not even at 5, but at 5+. In those conditions.
                        So again you, Sirozha, piled up piles under the doors and squealed Yes yes, yes... sometimes for Lapin, sometimes for the great Tuvan "marshal". Aren't you ashamed? laughing
                        No! Sirozha is not ashamed. lol Sirozha is in high spirits and has another portion of chutzpah.

                        Quote: your1970
                        Once again slowly

                        Sirozha, no need to sing slowly, you better sing. Or dance.
                        Quote: your1970
                        a boss who is unable to make people do what they are supposed to do for 4 years

                        Yes Having won victories in THREE wars in less than a year and a half and having achieved the annexation of Moldova without war by the threat of force. soldier Having increased the Red Army's numbers by almost 4 times during his (10 years?) term as People's Commissar!! Having begun (and quite successfully) the rearmament of the Red Army from horses and carts to modern types of world-class weapons... Sirozh doesn't like him??
                        Why doesn’t Sirozha like the successes of the Soviet Union and its Army? angry Because Sirozha is an enemy?
                        But at the same time he really likes Shoigu, Lapin and other parquet-candy characters. Who for THREE years of war\SVO to this day have not liberated "Forester's Hut" (Donbass).
                        Here Voroshilov was able to expand the Red Army to a strength almost 4 times greater than the original in 10 years, and these, over the past THREE years of the War request couldn't. Now others are trying, and things seem to be going well... but (what does Sirozha say?)
                        Quote: your1970
                        slow

                        And if you look at what the leadership of the Russian Ministry of Defense became famous for in the previous 8 years before the SVO... don’t you want to compare?
                        Quote: your1970
                        total crap

                        Quote: your1970
                        even the birds pooped marshmallows

                        Quote: your1970
                        I just fucked it all up,

                        Quote: your1970
                        stupidly sat behind the scenes

                        Now, substitute here another, more modern surname. smile And it will turn out to be much more relevant.
                        But Siroja went into extremes... it happens... probably some kind of disorder... It needs to be treated.
                        There is one good remedy - Truth.
                        But Sirozha is more interested in other products of his own life activity... maybe this is a disease?
                        Quote: your1970
                        Did you have any complaints about the Chief of General Staff of the Red Army?

                        So you also decided to stand up for Tukhachevsky? The one who poisoned Tambov villages with poisonous gases? What a company you have gathered for yourself... nothing but enemies. negative
                      36. -2
                        12 January 2025 14: 10
                        Once again you read and do not understand what you read.
                        The deficiencies were indicated in the Act as of 07.05.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX - this means that they were not corrected on this date, otherwise they would not have been included in the Act at all. Therefore, the count of corrections can only be made from this date.
                        And with Voroshilov everything is fun, you write
                        Quote: bayard
                        Hero of the Civil War, old party member, participant of the 2nd Congress of the RSDLP, he not as a military specialist He headed the NGO, but how? party representative control over the military department carried out so that Trotsky's chicks would not frolic too much belay

                        And right there
                        Quote: bayard
                        By that time, in a short period of time as head of the military department, Voroshilov had won victories in THREE wars:
                        - Halkingol,
                        - Polish company, when the USSR grew ZU and ZB,
                        - Finnish company,

                        You decide...
                        Quote: bayard
                        On shoulder straps or on a Budenovka?
                        Judging by the shoulder straps, this was not earlier than 1943.

                        By order of the NKO, the Budenovkas were abolished in 1940. Which the dear Voroshilov "exchanged for hats based on his experience of the war with the Finns" - without specifying, however, when he managed to do so if the war ended 2 months before he was kicked out of the NKO?
                      37. 0
                        12 January 2025 17: 32
                        And again Sirozha is knocking down piles... Aren't you tired of it?
                        Quote: your1970
                        With Voroshilov everything is fun, you write

                        Quote: your1970
                        And right there

                        I also wrote that Voroshilov is a nugget of the Civil War. He is not a career military man in the sense of basic education, and in the conditions of such high growth rates in the number and deployment of the Red Army, the military department should have been headed by a career military man with an excellent education and experience in the General Staff of the IRA. And for Voroshilov, the task was the Defense Industry and the preparation of the Evacuation at the beginning of the war.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Quote: bayard
                        By that time, in a short period of time as head of the military department, Voroshilov had won victories in THREE wars:
                        - Halkingol,
                        - Polish company, when the USSR grew ZU and ZB,
                        - Finnish company,

                        This is the result.
                        And I don't have much confidence in the veracity of that note that you're trumpeting. Although a lot of shortcomings were revealed. But these were problems of growth and rapid rearmament of the army, with a shortage of well-trained personnel.
                        Quote: your1970
                        By order of the NKO, Budenovkas were abolished in 1940.

                        In the Soviet Army, gymnasterkas were abolished in the late 60s and early 70s, but “partisans” continued to wear them in the late 80s.
                        So WHAT should I pay attention to?
                        To the Budyonovka?
                        Or maybe on shoulder straps, a new uniform and a clean collar? What is this photo for? I have seen many similar ones - photos of students of officer courses in the deep rear. In Budenovkas. So what?
                        What did you want to say?
                        Was there a shortage of hats in the USSR?
                        Quote: your1970
                        his kicking out of the NGO?

                        Sirozha!! Have you ever been kicked out of somewhere?
                        Voroshilov left to manage the military-industrial complex, prepare for the evacuation and deployment of industry beyond the Urals and (at the same time!) to the post of First Deputy Supreme Commander-in-Chief at the Supreme Command Headquarters. Where neither Shaposhnikov nor Zhukov ever jumped. Although both were Ministers of Defense.
                        Thanks to the exceptional organization and precision of the Evacuation and deployment of Industry beyond the Urals on PREPARED sites and in BUILT new buildings, the USSR withstood the blow of the united forces of Europe and won that truly terrible war. It would have been fundamentally impossible with the courage of our soldiers alone. The decisive role was played by the Defense Industry deployed by Voroshilov in extreme conditions beyond the Urals. We defeated the united Europe precisely with our Military Economy, for which Marshal Voroshilov, whom you, Sirozha, so hate, was responsible.
                      38. -2
                        12 January 2025 21: 28
                        Quote: bayard
                        And I don't have much confidence in the veracity of that note that you're touting. Although a lot of shortcomings have indeed been revealed.

                        Because you have split individuals - “I don’t believe the report, but it revealed many shortcomings” - further discussion is out of the question.

                        Z. Y.
                        Meaningless slogans I heard enough from political officers and other professional demagogues in the USSR.
                        You don't have to write more sheets - I won't read them. I'm tired of reading slogans that aren't supported by anything.
                      39. 0
                        12 January 2025 23: 05
                        And you won't get sick. Treat diarrhea, control bile secretion and after leaving Russia... just forget about it.
                      40. -1
                        12 January 2025 23: 26
                        You are gushing with bile - strange as it may seem: you distort the name, someone is constantly screwing with you - apparently this is your reality, you have not provided a single document - to refute my arguments. Only old man's ideas and slogans.
                        Voroshilov physically could not plan and do something for the defense industry in 1 year - he did not manage to do anything in the army in 4 years, and the industry is much more serious... Everything was planned and prepared - BEFORE him. Otherwise he would have blown it too...
                      41. 0
                        13 January 2025 00: 34
                        Quote: your1970
                        You are emitting bile - oddly enough -

                        Why would I? laughing I'm all positive.
                        Quote: your1970
                        you are distorting the name

                        This is from my whole positive Soul for heresy and insults towards Soviet Marshals. For such a pathetic nonentity throwing its own feces at Soviet commanders who defeated fascism... is ridiculous. fool And pathetic. No.
                        Quote: your1970
                        Just old people's ideas and slogans.

                        Sirozha, I'm not that old. laughing But at heart he is still so young. bully
                        Quote: your1970
                        Voroshilov physically could not plan and do something for the defense industry in 1 year.

                        SIROZHY!! He had been doing the same thing before, it was just decided to separate the issues of the Defense Industry and the issues of command, planning, forming new units, issues of Mobilization, personnel, combat training. Voroshilov took over the leadership of the entire Defense Industry, which included several (!!) ministries. For example, the Ministry of Ammunition. And the defense industry he headed outweighed and won the combined defense industry of all of Europe united by Hitler.
                        Sirozha, you are pathetic and ridiculous, drop this dispute, go and swim in the sea.
                      42. -2
                        11 January 2025 23: 40
                        Quote: bayard
                        And already in autumn-winter November 1941, XNUMX The Red Army in sheepskin coats, earflaps (instead of Budenovka hats), felt boots and on skis.

                        ]Please note
                      43. -1
                        12 January 2025 01: 53
                        Quote: your1970
                        ]Please note

                        For what ?
                        On shoulder straps or on a Budenovka?
                        Judging by the shoulder straps, this is no earlier than 1943. There are no awards or wound marks on the tunic, so it's not a hospital. The tunic is new, the collar is neatly hemmed, i.e. it's definitely not from the front. I'll assume that this is a cadet at an officer's course in the deep rear. Where on such people, so as not to waste their hats in vain and somehow distinguish them from ordinary soldiers, they issued Budenovkas that were already out of use. And what - it's convenient and all the property is put to use.
                        I think I guessed right.
                        A relative, or just a random thought?
                      44. 0
                        9 January 2025 17: 09
                        Quote: bayard
                        He himself, according to his biological father, is not Gorbachev at all, but a TURK - the son of a Turkish prisoner of war, who got married and settled in Russia/USSR, but when foreigners/aliens began to be checked/sifted in the second half of the 30s, he took his eldest son with him and fled to Turkey, leaving his wife with his youngest son Misha

                        Where did you get such fantastic information about Gorbachev’s father?
                      45. -1
                        9 January 2025 17: 54
                        No fantasy, and the sources are quite accessible in the works of Mukhin, Platonov and a number of other authors. Well, and a few exclusive ones. Everything is quite reliable and the authorities (who were supposed to) knew about it.
                      46. 0
                        9 January 2025 19: 26
                        The future father of M.S. Gorbachev, Sergei Andreevich, managed to get an education up to four grades. Later, with the assistance of his grandfather Pantelei, when he was the chairman of the collective farm, he learned to be a machine operator and then became a famous tractor driver and combine operator in the region.

                        G. Gorlov testifies:

                        — I knew Mikhail Sergeyevich's parents well, his father Sergey Andreyevich — a tractor brigade foreman, an intelligent man, a modest worker, an honest soldier who had gone through the crucible of the Great Patriotic War, awarded combat and labor orders and medals. He was a member of the district party committee bureau for a long time. I often had to visit them at home.

                        People loved him. He was a calm and kind man. People came to him for advice. He spoke little, but weighed every word. He did not like speeches.

                        Former Minister of Defense of the USSR, the last Marshal of the Soviet Union, member of the State Emergency Committee in August 1991 D. Yazov:

                        — Gorbachev's father, Sergei Andreevich, served in a sapper unit in a rifle brigade, then the brigade was reformed into the 161st rifle division, and Sergeant S.A. Gorbachev served in the sapper battalion until the very end of the war. He was wounded twice, awarded two Orders of the Red Star, several medals for the liberation of European capitals. Sergei Andreevich joined the party after the war, at the age of 36, and worked conscientiously as an ordinary machine operator.
                      47. -1
                        9 January 2025 20: 49
                        According to the sources I referred to, it was his stepfather, a truly highly respected man.
                        And even if he really were his biological father, this would not in any way whitewash the Traitor and Judas, who was marked as the Rogue should be.
                      48. 0
                        9 January 2025 21: 02
                        About the stepfather - fiction. About Judas - truth.
                      49. -1
                        9 January 2025 21: 18
                        I can’t check it from my sources now - the paper books in my library are now on the other side of the front, so for me it will still remain 50/50, although there is a resemblance from the photograph of my father/stepfather.
      2. +1
        28 December 2024 10: 50
        Quote: Adrey
        Hence the conclusion that low-rise construction can be afforded only by a not poor country with (most importantly) a high level of income of the population. And with this we are somehow "not very good"

        That is, from your conclusion we can draw the following conclusion: the USSR with its low-rise buildings and transport accessibility of even the most remote village, which had its own school, at least a first aid station, a club and local government, was a rich country until it was plundered by the "democrats" who seized power in the 90s?
        And how then can we characterize this period, Mamai’s next invasion? wink
        1. -4
          28 December 2024 11: 37
          Quote: Sovetskiy
          That is, from your conclusion we can draw the following conclusion: the USSR with its low-rise buildings and transport accessibility of even the most remote village, which had its own school, at least a first aid station, a club and local government, was a rich country.

          Of course. Certainly. But any wealth has one interesting feature - it arises at the expense of someone else, who has become poorer. "If something has increased, then something has decreased." request
        2. +1
          28 December 2024 15: 59
          There is no need to exaggerate, there was not a school, club and first aid post in every small village. Usually it was on the central estate of a collective or state farm and (or) in the main settlement of the village council (usually it was one settlement). Although in my childhood I lived in a village council where there were two state farms. The center of the village council was simultaneously the central estate of one, larger, state farm.
        3. -3
          31 December 2024 14: 30
          Quote: Sovetskiy
          transport accessibility of even the most remote village,

          when in 1974 my mother-in-law, pregnant with my wife, was being taken to Kirovets belay to give birth in the regional center in winter - is it transport accessibility?
          If you take a Kirovets for a ride off-road, you will give birth in 9 months, without stress, but with toxicosis. belay
      3. -4
        31 December 2024 10: 41
        The author relies on firewood - which was burned in the first winter of besieged Leningrad - taking into account that at least half of the houses (beams, doors, roofs, floors, ceilings) consisted of wood, and many houses were destroyed.
        He simply forgot that in the European part of the Russian Federation there are not many forests near cities - how many people will come for them.
        And yes, a power outage will automatically cut off all communication.
        About such a small thing as watches (and alarm clocks) belay - of which there are basically no 'mechanics' left...
    2. +5
      28 December 2024 08: 03
      Before we start banging, we should at least look at the state of our shelters.
      In the shelters there are liquor stores or chain beer bars or night clubs.
      1. -1
        28 December 2024 21: 22
        Well, this will give an opportunity to while away the time well and cheerfully, while it will be "unsafe" up there. And then everyone will come out of there in an elevated mood, full of optimism and determination. So the "idea" is good. laughing
    3. +1
      28 December 2024 11: 26
      The issue here is not only and not so much the cost of houses, but the cost of creating all the necessary infrastructure and maintaining its functioning, and also lobbying the interests of large developers who make a lot of money on human anthills. Many will build private houses themselves, and an even greater part will turn to small companies. As a result, construction giants will lose the market. It is not a problem to build your own house in Russia even now! And it will cost, with the right approach, no more than an apartment of a smaller area in any of the country's major cities. BUT this will be housing for pensioners, and not for economically active, potentially large families!
    4. +4
      28 December 2024 12: 38
      human anthills will only grow upwards, many would like to live in their own house, cottage, townhouse, but it is all expensive, very expensive, although now everything is expensive, even a studio of 20 square meters.

      Human anthills are only profitable for those who build them. In 20 years the pendulum will swing in the other direction, as in other countries, and these human anthills will be torn down by the same companies.
      I moved from a 3-room apartment to a house with a slightly larger area. I pay 2 times less for utilities than in an apartment. Living on your own land is cheaper, better, more profitable for a person, but not for oligarchs.
      That's why we have plenty of land, but instead of private houses they make human anthills, where there's nowhere to even park. A vote of no confidence in the government of the largest country in the world, where there aren't enough parking spaces.
      1. -2
        28 December 2024 17: 59
        I moved from a 3-room apartment to a house with a slightly larger area. I pay 2 times less for utilities than in an apartment. Living on your own land is cheaper, better, more profitable for a person, but not for oligarchs.
        and in our nearest suburbs they have imposed a normal fee for garbage removal with a progressive price on the square footage. It's about half a kilometer to carry it to the garbage container. Well, if you have a 200 square meter house, then it's already normal to pay, because it's obvious that three people on 70 square meters produce much less garbage than if they lived in a house twice as big. Even if these people live in the house only in the summer request
    5. +1
      28 December 2024 19: 47
      And it’s enough to strike at Moscow, and here you go, 20 million out of nowhere,

      Yes, Moscow is a city that in the future will be a city of big problems even without a nuclear strike. The current unreasonable policy attracts many people to Moscow. Moscow is inflating like a soap bubble. And when will this bubble burst? Let's think: what does Moscow give to Russia? Culture, science, education ... ... yes, it does. But this is not enough. Serving billionaires, high-ranking officials and their offices ... yes. But is this the main thing for 20 million? Not enough industry. Shopping and entertainment centers? And to support the extra millions of people, the state spends billions on infrastructure to the detriment of the rest of Russia. No! Moscow is not Russia. It is a parasite on the body of Russia.
      1. 0
        30 December 2024 21: 15
        Moscow "inflates" historically. Moscow has been the center of Russia for 500 years. Well, with the exception of a little over 200 years, when Peter the Great made St. Petersburg the capital. But now, in fact, Moscow and St. Petersburg form an agglomeration with the greatest concentration of everything that Russia has and the highest standard of living. And this situation will persist until a strong-willed decision is made at the top to develop other regions. And the Moscow agglomeration is so big that it would take many megaton strikes to destroy it. You are also forgetting that the Russian missile defense umbrella covers Moscow.
        Although, the situation with bomb shelters in Moscow is terrible. We tried to find at least one...
        1. 0
          30 December 2024 21: 23
          A high standard of living is good, but at what expense? What benefit does Moscow bring to Russia and is this benefit worth Moscow living well against the backdrop of poor Russian small and medium-sized cities? That is the question. And a large crowd of people on a small area leads to an increase in the cost of their maintenance. Yes, and in military terms it is bad. In the USSR - they understood this and the institution of registration greatly limited the growth of Moscow.
          1. +1
            30 December 2024 22: 01
            Moscow is the legacy of the USSR. In those days, Moscow was the center of science and industry. The best education. Now science is languishing. Industry has been taken out. But education, whatever it is, is still in Moscow - the best. The logistics center remains. All goods are delivered from Moscow to the country.
            I don't know what they understood in the USSR, but Moscow was growing even then. Compare it with pre-revolutionary Moscow
            1. 0
              30 December 2024 22: 10
              I don’t know what they understood in the USSR, but Moscow was growing even then.

              The restrictions were serious. Without a residence permit, they wouldn't hire anyone. And there were practically no residence permits. Only for serious reasons. And Moscow was growing, of course, but it would have grown even faster if there had been no restrictions. After all, Moscow was better supplied than anyone else in the conditions of shortages.
        2. -2
          31 December 2024 11: 10
          Quote: futurohunter
          You also forget that the Russian missile defense umbrella covers Moscow.

          In the USSR, Moscow was covered by 3 air defense rings - but Rust did not notice them and flew calmly....
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 11: 11
            It's incomparable. Firstly, they were leading Rust, they were just afraid to give the order after the story with the Korean Boeing. And secondly, missile defense is not air defense...
            1. -2
              31 December 2024 11: 25
              Quote: futurohunter
              First, Rust was led,
              just lost for 3 hours. Accidentally...

              Quote: futurohunter
              They were simply afraid to give the order after the incident with the Korean Boeing.
              и whole the world saw that SA is ungovernable - no one to take responsibility. Everything is pissed...
              Given my character - quiet and calm - I would have shot all those involved in the courtyard of the Ministry of Defense in front of the line. And I would have given an obituary - "After a sudden acute illness, without regaining consciousness, they died....."
              And so the entire army and the people saw that they could dodge their duties: “There was no order from Moscow, we are enslaved people, so what if the entire USSR was stolen - there was no order!!!”

              Quote: futurohunter
              And secondly, missile defense is not air defense...
              What if there are 500 conventional Tomahawks with a kiloton warhead instead of 50 ballistic missiles? What then?
              What if there are 10-20 unmanned AN-2s with megaton warheads?
              1. 0
                31 December 2024 11: 34
                only lost for 3 hours

                There were MiG-29s in the air. It was enough to fly up to Rust... It wasn't even necessary to shoot...

                the whole world saw that SA is uncontrollable
                By then the country was already in chaos...

                I would have shot all those involved in the courtyard of the Ministry of Defense in front of the line. And I would have given an obituary
                Wrong answer. A public trial with wide public coverage was needed. And nothing secret.

                500 conventional Tomahawks with a kiloton
                Well, first of all, it's not a kiloton on the TG. Secondly, it won't reach that much. And if something does reach it, it won't be enough for the Moscow metropolis. By the way, a kiloton is not that much. It won't even destroy a plant. If it hits a residential area, it will only destroy buildings near the epicenter. The rest will survive. And there are no such heads. Not serious...

                10-20 unmanned AN-2s with megaton warheads?
                The AN-2 won't lift a megaton. They're too heavy. And the dimensions of the Annushka are too big. This isn't a drone from an aircraft modeling club.
                1. -3
                  31 December 2024 14: 20
                  Quote: futurohunter
                  There were MiG-29s in the air. It was enough to fly up to Rust... It wasn't even necessary to shoot...

                  and also the Mi-24 of the 2nd squadron conducted flights - and they could catch up, escort and cut into pieces from 30mm if necessary.
                  But there were no brave enough to give the order...

                  Quote: futurohunter
                  By then the country was already in chaos.
                  in 1987?


                  Quote: futurohunter
                  Wrong answer. A public trial with wide public coverage was needed. And nothing secret.
                  -It's quite possible. I won't argue. In any case, not for retirement.

                  Quote: your1970
                  conditional
                  -specially indicated- CONDITIONAL
                  Quote: futurohunter
                  Regarding your kiloton.
                  - what difference would it make if the buildings survived or not if 500 tomahawks with a TEMPORARY kiloton charge hit Moscow?
              2. 0
                31 December 2024 11: 42
                Regarding your kiloton. Below is a photo of Hiroshima after the bombing. Note the remaining stone buildings. The building on the left photo, in the foreground, was right next to the epicenter...
                And it was far from a kiloton...
              3. 0
                31 December 2024 11: 47
                More before and after photos of Hiroshima. Note the surviving complex of buildings near the epicenter.
  2. +5
    28 December 2024 05: 18
    It's scary to even think about critical situations. We are vulnerable to all everyday conveniences. Once there was no water for only a day and a half. And then it's all over. The sewer system requires a huge amount of water. In my fifties I would have run to the corner to get water from the hydrant. Now I have to go to the store to buy a drop of water for the devouring toilet. We have become incompetent. We are unable to survive in critical situations.
    1. -4
      28 December 2024 08: 52
      yes, and we won't go out against a bear with a knife anymore... ))
      and we don’t collect herbs and roots...

      come on, there is no goal in abandoning the achievements of civilization in the name of hardcore "survivalist"... ((
  3. BAI
    +2
    28 December 2024 06: 30
    Of course, it is easier and more efficient to heat the stove with coal,

    It's not simpler at all. Coal must be mined in a mine and delivered hundreds of kilometers away. Which will be very problematic in wartime conditions.

    Did the author see a lot of coal in Russian villages?
    In Soviet times, coal was only brought to cities. Now there is none at all and never will be.
    1. +5
      28 December 2024 07: 55
      My wife's late grandmother, who lived in a small village, had coal brought to her and she used it to heat her stove.
      She was a War Veteran and a Labor Veteran.
      I received coal from the Village Council.
    2. 0
      28 December 2024 11: 27
      When I served in Transbaikalia, in order to heat the titanium I took a hammer and went to the boiler room to look for coal, which burned better and did not clog the chimney. But in Primorye there was nothing to choose from, the coal there was resinous
    3. +3
      28 December 2024 16: 04
      My parents in the countryside, both in Soviet times and in the post-Soviet period, until gas heating was installed in the early 2000s, heated the stove with coal. Firewood was needed only for kindling. And the locals were well supplied with coal. No one heated the stove with firewood alone.
      1. +2
        28 December 2024 19: 54
        My parents, who lived in a rural area, both during Soviet times and in the post-Soviet period, until gas heating was installed in the early 2000s, used coal to heat the stove.

        This was obviously the case in the 70s and 80s and later. And what did they use for heating in the 50s: firewood, brushwood, peat and, excuse me... dung in some areas.
    4. +2
      29 December 2024 16: 44
      In the Oryol region in the 70-80s, most people in rural areas heated their stoves with coal, and firewood was used for the initial kindling of the stove. Hard coal was used, less often brown coal briquettes from the Tula region. Sometimes even anthracite was found.
  4. +2
    28 December 2024 06: 45
    Everybody to the dugouts!! Everybody to Siberia, beyond the Urals, disperse as much as possible!! And no nuclear missile of the enemy will be scary for us!!
    I hadn’t even had time to recover from Samsonov’s latest exhalation, and then hello to another one...
    1. +2
      28 December 2024 06: 53
      Quote: Andrey VOV
      I hadn’t even had time to recover from Samsonov’s latest exhalation, and then hello to another one...

      Don't read Samsonov in the morning during breakfast laughing .
      - "What if there is nothing else?"
      - "Then don't read anything."
      Do you remember where from? laughing hi
      1. +1
        28 December 2024 07: 09
        The film turned out to be anti-Soviet. Now they also call not to watch YouTube and there is no other way.
  5. 0
    28 December 2024 06: 54
    Building some kind of nuclear-resistant skyscrapers is an oxymoron in itself. Evacuation and dispersal have long been invented; a nuclear crisis does not occur suddenly.
    [media=https://vkvideo.ru/video-8161590_456239492]
    The evacuation of industry is a big problem, but the experience of the Great Patriotic War will help.
    1. +2
      28 December 2024 07: 32
      Quote: Ambrose
      Evacuation and dispersal have long been thought up; a nuclear crisis does not occur suddenly.

      However, evacuation is so expensive that during the Cuban missile crisis no evacuation was carried out in the USSR. They lived as usual, and the USA carried out only partial evacuation in the southern regions.
      Too expensive and will be hoping for the best until the final whistle
    2. +3
      28 December 2024 07: 46
      Every year here winter with snow and frosts comes unexpectedly. And you are talking about evacuation during a nuclear war. Hide everything in holes in an hour?! How do you imagine 12 million people in Moscow simultaneously diving into the metro?! Have you never seen what happens at sales or rallies?! In one word - a herd of sheep. Simple numbers 2 people live one in an apartment in a 5-story building in the district center and one in a two-apartment in the village. The area of ​​the apartments is 58 (r.c.) and 63 (d) meters. In the district center, the monthly payment for utilities is already almost 6 thousand rubles, in the village for a YEAR!!! 15 thousand is barely collected. Another thing is if there is nowhere to work in the place of residence in the village. Stores do not count except for groceries, for everything else you have to go - the price of delivery without your own car is already biting. When building high-rises, they don't take into account the current reality - there is no one to manufacture and service the same elevators. Cranes for construction are expensive. In case of fire, you can survive by jumping from the 3rd floor at most - the higher you are, the less likely you are to survive (as well as driving a car faster than 90). In a cottage village or a village, you can also organize transportation to work or schools by bus - and this is not like in a city where one bus at the first stop in the morning can be packed to capacity. Here you can write such a sheet on the economy of a village and a city - you will drown in nuances.
    3. 0
      30 December 2024 21: 17
      Actually, only megatons can destroy skyscrapers. Remember that in Hiroshima all the stone buildings were preserved, and the people in them survived
  6. +9
    28 December 2024 08: 02
    I am writing this in a 2-story private house in the suburbs of New York. The population of our town is a little over 30000. There is one building with 5 floors (the first floor is commercial, above are offices of small businesses like law firms or realtors). There are several more three-story buildings, the rest, including my house, are two-story (well, three, if you count the semi-basement, or, as they call it here, basement). The heating is steam on gas, but if you really need it, the boiler can be converted to liquid (diesel) or even solid (coal, firewood) fuel. By the way, the original, in 1929, was coal-fired, gasification was presumably in the 1980s, although gas for the stove and water heater in the house was there from the very beginning. There is a stream a couple hundred meters away, and a river a mile away, a dozen buckets will fit in the car, and from the stream you can take it in a wheelbarrow if the gasoline supply is cut off. Unfortunately, I won't carry it - I feel sorry for my back. The sewerage system works by gravity, so even a complete loss of electricity will not affect it.
    If things get really bad, the lawn can be dug up for potatoes and tomatoes. There are plenty of geese and ducks in the surrounding parks, and deer, so there will be meat, at least for a while. There will also be plenty of predators, especially bipeds. But for a while, a supply of canned food and ammo will mean much more than money in the bank. Although even after a direct hit from Hurricane Sandy in 2012, there were no particular problems.
    In New York, only Manhattan has solid multi-story buildings (and even then, mostly office buildings, with relatively few residents), and in the other four boroughs, high-rises are closer to Manhattan, and otherwise low-rise private buildings interspersed with 6-story residential buildings. Another thing is that power and gas outages will be felt much worse there. Across the river, in New Jersey, high-rises look out onto Manhattan, and then the number of floors drops significantly.
    1. 0
      28 December 2024 10: 56
      Quote: Nagan
      If things get really bad, the lawn can be dug up to plant potatoes and tomatoes.

      The worst thing would be a nuclear explosion of 10 or more MT in a 10-20 mile zone from the city you named in shallow water. In this case, even funeral directors won't need your lawn. I don't think you'll have to solve the problem of lost electricity on a global scale for any other reason than I mentioned. The most likely problem today is not sabotage at nuclear power plants and hydroelectric power plants, but a crazy deep state that has lost its shores. Good luck to all of us in the new year.
    2. +4
      28 December 2024 11: 35
      Quote: Nagan
      In New York, there is only continuous high-rise development in Manhattan (and even then it is mostly office buildings, there are relatively few residents there), and in the other four boroughs there are high-rise buildings closer to Manhattan, and otherwise low-rise private development interspersed with 6-story residential buildings.

      Well... traditional American development - downtown candles and endless fields of low-rise buildings around. On one coast, on the other, and in between. For example, Los Santos... ugh, Los Angeles, view from the Griffith Observatory.
      1. -1
        30 December 2024 21: 41
        Alexey RA
        The valley is almost perfectly horizontal, like a table. A ground or low-altitude nuclear explosion will blow away your cottage development with a shock wave. And the light radiation will set fire to what is burning... You don't even need megatons. Tactics are enough, kilotons for 100-400. Even 20 kilotons would have caused trouble here... The skyscrapers on the horizon would have stood... if there hadn't been a blast between them
    3. -3
      28 December 2024 12: 04
      If your back hurts, you won't be able to withstand blacks and Latinos even with a machine gun wassat
      1. +1
        28 December 2024 19: 43
        Quote from: nepunamemuk
        If your back hurts, you won't be able to withstand blacks and Latinos even with a machine gun wassat

        A rifle is not a bucket of water, it won't break your back, and a revolver even less so. And my son will soon be 20, although if it comes to the extreme, he can be mobilized.
    4. +1
      28 December 2024 18: 07
      As if the question of a nuclear war is more than three days of direct attack. The gas will disappear immediately, the ducks will be eaten in a couple of weeks, the canned meat reserves in a few months. The gasoline will quickly run out. And then the question will arise - how many people can the territory feed in the conditions of the economy of the 17th-18th centuries, without internal combustion engines, antibiotics, fertilizers, tractors and other things
      1. +1
        28 December 2024 19: 57
        Quote from alexoff
        And then the question will arise - how many people can the territory support in the conditions of an economy at the level of the 17th-18th centuries?
        You forgot to mention the lack of medications, which a considerable part of the population is on, and the older they are, the more so. Well, let's say you can take away statin for cholesterol, but while the plaques there clog the vessels, either the emir or the donkey will die, especially if you don't overeat - and there won't be much food. But if you take away those that regulate blood pressure, the probability of a heart attack or stroke jumps up considerably. A heart attack is okay, quick and relatively clean, but a stroke, and with paralysis, is not the most pleasant way, you'll envy those who were covered by a nuclear explosion.
        So life expectancy will drop to the 17th century level, and I personally have already passed that level.
        1. 0
          28 December 2024 20: 43
          Quote: Nagan
          You forgot to mention the lack of medications, which a significant portion of the population is on, and the older they are, the more so.

          Well, I wrote about antibiotics, it is clear that those who, for example, had their thyroid removed (I know two such people) will live until the supply of drugs runs out
          Quote: Nagan
          But those that regulate blood pressure, if you remove them, the probability of a heart attack or stroke jumps up quite a bit. A heart attack is okay, quick and relatively clean, but a stroke, and with paralysis, is not the most pleasant way, you'll envy those who were covered by a nuclear explosion.

          yes, I think those who have a heart attack knocking at their door will catch it in the first hours after the explosion from nerves
          Quote: Nagan
          So life expectancy will drop to the 17th century level, and I personally have already passed that level.

          but the free will begin for healthy men of 20-30 years old, who now toil for their grandfather-boss and have nothing, and here you suddenly find yourself the strongest, you are immediately a promising male, choose the most expensive outfit and the most expensive car in the stores. Well, until you run into the same impudent men. In general, a bright life, albeit short laughing
          1. 0
            28 December 2024 20: 50
            Quote from alexoff
            yes, I think those who have a heart attack knocking at their door will catch it in the first hours after the explosion from nerves
            This is unlikely (C). If the pills have stabilized the pressure, then it will not go away until the pills run out.
            Quote from alexoff
            Choose the most expensive outfit and the most expensive car in the stores.
            The most suitable outfit would be camouflage and unloading, and the most suitable car would be a Niva, it eats little and has cross-country ability no worse than a Jeep. True, it is not sold here, but there are similar oneslol both local and Japanese.
            1. -1
              28 December 2024 21: 21
              People are "strange survivalists"
              the first person in camouflage and unloading will be removed as very dangerous either by a burst from a machine gun or a shot from a rifle am
              1. +1
                28 December 2024 22: 32
                Quote from: nepunamemuk
                with a burst from a machine gun or a shot from a rifle
                VSS "Vintorez" was not sold here, at least officially, it does not comply with the restrictions, and the 9x39 cartridge is not the most common not only here, but in the world in general, although, if possible and the price was reasonable, I would be glad to acquire such a barrel for my collection and just in case. There are very few machine guns in the hands of private owners, only those registered before 1986, and for illegal storage a ticket to Club Fed, all inclusive, up to 20 years.
            2. 0
              28 December 2024 22: 23
              The most suitable outfit would be camouflage and unloading
              Well, camouflage is unlikely to help much, but when else will you be able to put on a watch that costs as much as an apartment and a jacket that costs a couple of tens of thousands? laughing
              1. 0
                28 December 2024 23: 42
                Quote from alexoff
                The most suitable outfit would be camouflage and unloading
                Well, camouflage is unlikely to help much, but when else will you be able to put on a watch that costs as much as an apartment and a jacket that costs a couple of tens of thousands? laughing
                What's the point? In the post-apocalypse, gasoline and bullets will be more expensive than money and gold, and the more ordinary the clothes look, the better. Whoever shows off and stands out, for example, in raspberry Jacket from Armani tongue , will be one of the first to get into the sight. Or rather, not even in the sight, but on the pen, because there is no point in wasting bullets on something like that. A watch worth an apartment? Yes, easy, since the apartments will be free, come and occupy them, but how will you survive there without water and electricity? And camouflage will come in handy, so as not to stand out - not in the area, but from those with whom it is better not to mess. Approximately like a harmless fly is painted in black and yellow stripes like a wasp with a sting.
            3. 0
              30 December 2024 21: 44
              Revolver
              the most suitable car is "Niva"
              Small and weak. We need something stronger, like a UAZ-Patriot, Land Rover, or even better - a Toyota Hilux
              1. 0
                30 December 2024 21: 55
                In the post-apocalypse, if there is gasoline, it will be more expensive than gold. And all the models you listed guzzle like crazy. A simple 1.5-liter naturally aspirated engine is the best for low-octane.
                1. 0
                  30 December 2024 22: 08
                  How can I say... There will be a bunch of abandoned vehicles - drive up and take a leak. And the Niva will quickly collapse into a wreck, with all due respect to it. And you won't be able to carry much on it
                  1. 0
                    30 December 2024 22: 56
                    Quote: futurohunter
                    There will be a bunch of abandoned vehicles - drive up and take a leak

                    This resource will not last long. Gas stations, or rather underground tanks underneath them, will last a little longer, but they will be immediately distributed (or undistributed) among the gangs, because they are not only gasoline, but also a repair base for at least a couple of lifts. As for oil extraction and processing, one can only guess whether it will happen or not.
                    1. 0
                      31 December 2024 11: 15
                      Well, there will be abandoned transport for several days. Moreover, there will be one that did not leave for some reason (for example, due to damage or malfunctions), but the fuel remained.
                      In fact, it will only be possible to use motor transport for the first day, maximum two or three. After that, all transport will be of interest to either the military or gangs. Or the target of attacks from both "friends" and "foes". Therefore, if you were unable to "get away" far right away, then it is better not to.
                      A car is acceptable only if you manage to put together your own "gang". At least for self-defense. And only if there is a weapon on board. A machine gun is best
                    2. 0
                      31 December 2024 11: 17
                      On oil. Oil fields will either be destroyed (maybe multi-day fires will start). Or captured by armed groups that will feed on them. Look at Syria
        2. 0
          30 December 2024 21: 42
          Revolver
          If someone is so nervous, then no medicine will save them from a heart attack or stroke. They won't live long with a stroke, in ruins, dust, fires and radiation contamination
          1. 0
            30 December 2024 21: 51
            The nervous ones will really get a blow. But there are a lot of people, including yours truly, whose blood pressure on pills is like that of astronauts, and without them it jumps up on its own without any nervous irritants. And according to the terms of the insurance, the pills are given out in a three-month ration once every 3 months, a few days before the end of the previous portion. So if the availability of pills disappears, then I will live from a few days to a few months until the pills last, and then as God wills. A jump in blood pressure does not necessarily cause a blow, but it greatly increases the likelihood.
  7. -5
    28 December 2024 08: 03
    The situation can only be changed by some kind of systemic decision at the level of the country's leadership, which will make low-rise construction a priority,

    There was already such an experience when Khrushchev stopped at 5 floors precisely for the purpose of dispersing the population. He was later blamed for this in 1964...
    1. +8
      28 December 2024 11: 46
      Quote: Hagen
      There was already such an experience when Khrushchev stopped at 5 floors precisely for the purpose of dispersing the population.

      There, dispersion was not the main goal. If I remember correctly, 5 floors were taken based on the maximum (at that time) cheapness of city construction in general, including not only buildings, but also communications with infrastructure. Fewer floors - the blocks spread out in width, and this means more money for infrastructure. More floors - the buildings become more expensive. For example, according to the standards, elevators are already required, which immediately inflates the stairwell in width. Plus, it is necessary to increase the water pressure in the water supply and heating, and this means new pumps and re-laying pipes.
      We needed the cheapest possible serial building for the existing networks. Because it was no longer possible to keep people in communal apartments, barracks, basements and rented corners.

      And yes, the Khrushchev-era "nine square meters per person", with a kitchen, hallway and combined bathroom - that's foo-foo-foo, the damned Soviet Union. But today's studio (the same thing, but without a separate kitchen and rudimentary hallway) is stylish, fashionable, youthful. smile
      1. -1
        28 December 2024 14: 07
        Quote: Alexey RA
        There, dispersal was not the main goal.

        Historians who described all this, referring to documents, said that it was precisely dispersal that was the purpose of the 5-story limitation. And when Khrushchev was removed from office at the October Plenum of 1964, the document accused him of increasing the cost of construction due to the floor limitation. If you want to refute, then preferably with documents. History is not what we imagined, thought about and thought was logical, history is documents (to a large extent). All construction is, first of all, projects with justifications. They can be found, if desired.
      2. 0
        28 December 2024 14: 20
        Quote: Alexey RA
        But the current studio (the same thing, but without a separate kitchen and rudimentary hallway) is stylish, fashionable, and youthful.

        If you don't like the studio, buy a different layout or order a redevelopment. In a Khrushchev-era building, for example, the wall panels themselves were the building's power frame. And it was very difficult, and sometimes impossible, to redevelop. Today, in modern projects, redevelopment is quite feasible, both to do and to legalize. By the way, in a Khrushchev-era building of the 1-464 type, the estimated cost of 1 square meter of living space was 111 rubles. So, a Khrushchev-era two-room apartment cost an average of 3330-3400 rubles. It would have been quite affordable if it had not been inflated many times over, as in the case of cooperative construction in the USSR. An interest-free long-term loan could have solved the housing problem of the USSR, and not only in the capital, but everywhere where people lived. Read Spitsyn, you can find a lot of interesting things there, things that were not taught in school and university textbooks.
      3. 0
        30 December 2024 21: 48
        All this "youth fashion" is an advertising scam... like the iPhone. iPhones are fashionable, but stupid and expensive. You can sell a bad and expensive toy to stupid hamsters.
        In general, poverty is becoming fashionable. Moreover, poverty is becoming cool. For example, lofts are essentially ruins, abandoned factory buildings. Studios are from the same opera. Well, a person doesn't have money for normal housing. But they need to make money on it somehow. So they foist off on him a closet without windows and doors. It's good that at least there is a toilet... Although, with such "progress", soon the toilet will be combined with the bathtub and sink
  8. +4
    28 December 2024 08: 09
    There is no pre-New Year mood anyway, and here... "Dear editor! Maybe it would be better - about the reactor? There, about the beloved lunar tractor? After all, it is impossible! - for a year in a row they scare with saucers - they say, vile, they fly, then your dogs bark,
    "the ruins speak!"(c)
  9. +4
    28 December 2024 08: 34
    And finally, let's remember the cult of low-rise housing in the USA and the decentralization of their population's residence in small towns, and think about who has an advantage in this area?
    Nobody has an advantage!
    Of the nine nuclear powers, only Russia and the United States have the capability to carry out a retaliatory strike, since they have the necessary operational and technical base for this. The other countries possessing nuclear weapons do not have significant counterforce potential against American or Russian forces and developed missile attack warning systems.

    If the two above-mentioned countries use nuclear weapons against each other, then that part of humanity that survives will begin its civilizational path from the Stone Age, since the entire infrastructure that supports modern civilization will be destroyed, and the people who survive in the human anthills will move toward low-rise buildings in search of food.
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. 0
    28 December 2024 09: 08
    As a fantasy and analysis on a free topic - it will do... But globalization dictates its own. As for the cult in the USA, it is one of the embodiments of the "American dream" and not everything is so clear-cut either smile
  12. +1
    28 December 2024 11: 07
    "twelve floors and more, for safety reasons, gas is not supplied for domestic use" - in the 16-story building next to my house, there are gas stoves in the kitchens. The article is simply teeming with such discrepancies with reality.
    I have written on VO several times and I will repeat myself - the danger of gas equipment in residential buildings has been artificially exaggerated in recent years, electricity is no less dangerous, it is just not fashionable to write about it now.
    1. 0
      28 December 2024 18: 14
      There is electricity in all houses, and without gas, a neighbor who has gone crazy can start a fire, but not an explosion. I have experience of evacuating a house at 4 am, when a woman living on the first floor with a certificate set fire to the apartment and watched from a bench near the entrance as the residents ran away in panic, and the firefighters, on the contrary, ran up. There were no casualties, but if she had decided to blow up the gas, there obviously would have been
      1. 0
        28 December 2024 19: 14
        "a crazy neighbor can start a fire, but not an explosion" - it is much more difficult to cause a household gas explosion than illiterate journalists try to force on the population, even on purpose. But anyone can overload an electrical system, you don't have to be crazy about it. For example, I was beaten by a brand new electric stove, I saw melted circuit breakers, I saw a fire spreading across the balconies of a nine-story panel building...
        1. 0
          28 December 2024 19: 23
          A fire from wiring can happen with or without gas. An air conditioner, a heater, all sorts of mining gadgets will overload the electrical system of a Khrushchev-era building in no time. Where there are electric stoves, there is a thicker cable and often the staircase is separated from the stairwell by a fireproof balcony.
          Of course, it is not so easy to blow up an apartment with the entire entrance, but the effect is very strong. There is a probability of an event, and there is a mathematical expectation, the effect multiplied by the probability. And an infrequent explosion of an entrance is an undesirable phenomenon.
          1. 0
            28 December 2024 20: 04
            Quote from alexoff
            Air conditioner, heater, all sorts of mining gadgets will overload the electrical system of a Khrushchev-era building in no time.
            Well, a person in his right mind and sound memory wouldn't drive one against another at his own expense, mind you. At least, not the one who was smart enough to install mining gadgets.lol
            1. 0
              28 December 2024 20: 34
              The air conditioner can also work for heating, you just need to switch the mode from snowflake to sun fool
              Soviet apartments generally counted on four sockets, where you could stick a floor lamp or a vacuum cleaner at most, now after major repairs they make at least six sockets per room. It is difficult to predict how the general house network will handle all the multicookers-air conditioners-microwaves, especially if you multiply this by the quality of electrical installation in the apartment itself
              1. 0
                28 December 2024 20: 42
                Quote from alexoff
                The air conditioner can also work for heating, you just need to switch the mode from snowflake to sun
                Not all of them are reversible. Of course, there are some, but they are much more expensive than regular ones, and they are not very effective when there is real frost outside. They are mainly sold in the southern states, where cold weather is rare and not severe, and such gadgets are more profitable there than installing a separate heating system, which is not turned on every year for several days. My brother had one of these when he lived in TX (a suburb of Houston).
                1. 0
                  28 December 2024 20: 46
                  In our latitudes it is difficult to find a condenser without heating, I have one at home, and my predecessors made one at work. Both work quite well at -10, although the home one makes a lot of noise and groans, so I do not abuse it
                  1. 0
                    28 December 2024 23: 56
                    I have 3 air conditioners in the Moscow region without heating, which I definitely don’t need, and I didn’t want to overpay for an extra function.
          2. 0
            28 December 2024 21: 00
            Am I arguing that a gas explosion in an apartment building is good? Of course, this "charm" should be avoided. I mean that gas in an apartment building is no more dangerous than electricity. A gas stove with gas control is practically a safe thing. I'm talking about a fool with a motor. But if you set yourself the task of deliberately arranging a gas explosion, then this is really no problem. True, to collapse the entrance with an explosion, then in the conditions of one kitchen it is practically unrealistic, the amount of explosive mixture is too small, the cubic capacity is small. Any specialist knows how to blow up an entire entrance, but an ordinary person, especially with the level of the Unified State Exam, does not know this.
            "but the effect is very strong" - I don't argue, but the probability is so tiny that it can be ignored. It's a pity that there are no statistics on deaths and damage from electricity in everyday life, so that these two energy sources could be compared.
            1. 0
              28 December 2024 23: 05
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              What I mean is that gas in an apartment building is no more dangerous than electricity.

              but now we have one danger instead of two, that's not bad
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              A gas stove with gas control is a practically safe thing.

              but someone should put them to every crazy granny. My grandmother, a social worker, had a ward who was completely crazy, she called from her home phone and said that she was taken to the forest and other nonsense, and when they came to her house, it turned out that with her old lady's daring she was able to tear the stove off the pipe and gas was just leaking from there directly. It's surprising that there was no fire. But the house is private, where it is appropriate that if you make a mess then only you suffer, and in the apartment there are also neighbors. I remember there was a news story about an old woman who simply killed her entire neighboring family with gas, at first no one could understand why everyone died.
              Plus gas in the house = matches in the house, and here we need to make sure that no one at the age of 8 decides to test the curtains for fire resistance
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              It is a pity that there are no statistics on deaths and damage from electricity in everyday life.

              so you need to compare where fires are more common - with electric stoves or without them. A separate cable is stretched to the electric stove with a powerful socket, it seems to me that it is quite difficult to set fire to the stove or a large socket behind it. And there is usually nothing to burn near the stove.
              1. 0
                28 December 2024 23: 53
                "My grandmother, a social worker" - my wife worked in this system for over 20 years, going all the way from a social worker to a manager. I heard countless miracles from her, but there were no gas stories. True, this is a local sample.
                "gas in the house = matches in the house" - not at all necessary, I haven't used matches for 20 years, piezo ignition has been installed for a very long time.
                "We need to make sure that no one aged 8 decides to test curtains for fire resistance" - but here, rather, we need to fight smoking.
                "a separate cable is pulled with a powerful socket, it seems to me that it is quite difficult to set fire to a stove or a large socket behind it. And there is usually nothing to burn near the stove" - ​​so the problem is usually not in the cable, but in bad contacts, the power there is considerable, I have seen how plastic sockets/plugs/machines melt. And as for a fire, yes, not in every case, but not every gas leak causes an explosion. By the way, a gas leak is detected by smell very quickly and easily, but a bad contact is very difficult, there may not be any sparks.
                1. 0
                  29 December 2024 00: 55
                  so the problem is usually not in the cable, but in bad contacts, the power there is quite decent, I have seen how plastic sockets/plugs/circuit breakers melt.

                  But it's hard to imagine this with an electric stove, the socket usually sticks out right behind the stove, there's nothing to burn around there. It will melt, smoke, soot and that's it. Something is more likely to happen in the living room. Tinkov has some kind of summary of statistics from the Ministry of Emergency Situations, there, fires are more often caused by refrigerators. Given that only 2% of fires are caused by household appliances, and the number of fires from cigarettes and electricity in general is almost the same.
                  Cables are already everywhere.
                  As far as I know, gas is simply not being installed in apartment buildings now, and has been since the early 80s. And old Khrushchev-type buildings burn down because of flimsy wiring, where water heaters and other energy-consuming junk are hung on rotten wires.
                  and the kitchen furniture???
                  it's not that easy to just set a chipboard on fire so that it flares up. Or there should be sheaves of sparks flying from a short circuit and so that the fuses don't blow and no one runs to put it out
              2. 0
                29 December 2024 00: 08
                "there's usually nothing to burn near the stove" - ​​I almost forgot - what about kitchen furniture???
        2. -1
          30 December 2024 21: 51
          Sergey Valov
          It is much more difficult to cause a domestic gas explosion than illiterate journalists try to impose on the population, even specifically

          Don't make it up. To make a "goat", you need to at least know how to do it. Just a pin in the socket will knock out the machine, and nothing more. Exploding gas is as easy as pie. If there is no gas control in the stove, then it is enough to turn the gas to full, wait a little, and then light something
          1. 0
            30 December 2024 22: 12
            Reasoning of an amateur.
            1. 0
              30 December 2024 22: 13
              That's what I'm talking about amateurs. Even an amateur can arrange a gas emergency. An electric one - you have to try really hard.
              1. 0
                30 December 2024 22: 54
                As for electricity - it is amateurs who overload the electrical network, after which it is not the cables that burn, but the sockets/plugs, and you don't have to try hard here. A fairly close relative of mine, being too lazy to turn on the heating in a room of a private house in the fall (he turned it on in others), connected an oil radiator there, as a result the house burned down. I will repeat once again - the danger of household gas is artificially exaggerated, and the danger of electricity is hushed up.
                1. 0
                  31 December 2024 11: 26
                  Well, I know the "electricians' nightmare" - 3 or more extension cords in a row.
                  But there shouldn't be a fire from the radiator. Apparently, the radiator was faulty, or the wiring was bad. The wiring could have been done incorrectly. In short, write in more detail - the reasons are unclear
                  But the wiring "suffers" more. Even damaged insulation is unlikely to cause a fire (more likely to cause an electric shock, especially in a damp room). But damaged gas pipe or joints...
                  Don't underestimate the danger of gas. Look, even at combined gas stations, the gas station is moved away from the petrol pumps.
                  And how many times have gas cylinders exploded on vehicles! Personally, I saw it twice. Fortunately, I was far away from it
                  1. 0
                    31 December 2024 11: 45
                    The oil radiator itself is a very reliable thing, but its illiterate operation... In that particular case, the cats knocked over the working radiator, and off we go...
                    "Don't underestimate the danger of gas" - I tested combustion chambers for gas-pumping turbines on a ground stand for 20 years. The conditions there were not like home greenhouses, but pressure up to 200 atm. We always had leaks because there were dozens of joints and reassembly was carried out constantly, so I know the topic very well.
                    Motor transport is a separate topic, the operating conditions there are very “fun”.
  13. +2
    28 December 2024 11: 20
    Great article! Plus to the author! Only the priorities are a little wrong. Indeed, a nation in low-rise buildings is more resilient in a nuclear conflict. However, taking into account the nuclear potential, with its full use of course (which has recently become a matter of strong doubt under our snot-nosed leadership), the only difference will be in the time of population extinction. In high-rise buildings, people will suffer quickly, and in private homes they will die for a long time from diseases associated with radioactive impact on people and nature.
    The main advantage of low-rise construction is the complete solution of the demographic problem. This is evident in the example of the USA. IT HAS BEEN ABSENT THERE AFTER WWII precisely because of the high birth rate of the population resettled to the land! Despite the crises (which also took place), pederasty, and the decline in moral standards. These are objective data from official statistics! Migration also exists and it also makes a significant contribution to the country's population, but this contribution is not predominant, so migrants in the USA do not establish their own rules, as has become customary in our country... What the author did not mention is the high cost of such resettlement of people. The issue here is not only and not so much the cost of houses, but the cost of creating all the necessary infrastructure and maintaining its functioning. It is not a problem to build your own house in Russia even now! And it will cost, with the right approach, no more than an apartment of a smaller area in any of the country's major cities. BUT this will be housing for pensioners, and not for economically active, potentially large families!
  14. +5
    28 December 2024 12: 10
    Alas. We have human anthills, they have low-rise buildings.
    And they also have, according to various sources of information, decentralized management, private small boiler houses and generators, local government, a large number of private vehicles, airplanes, boats, airfields, workshops, etc.

    By the way, this is often played out in normal science fiction. In their case, when there is an emergency, everyone unites into communities. In our case, people flee from cities, don't trust the authorities, everyone is on their own. (as an example, Cruz, who lived in different places in both our country and theirs)

    And, according to the popular anthropologist Drobyshevsky, Russians' housing is becoming increasingly unsuitable for reproduction. (with examples and statistics from him)

    Tricky plan?
    1. 0
      28 December 2024 20: 11
      Quote: Max1995
      And they also have, according to various sources of information, decentralized management, private small boiler houses and generators, local government, a large number of private vehicles, airplanes, boats, airfields, workshops, etc.

      You're right. The town's police department reports to the city council, but not to the state or the feds. The fire departments, too. State governments are pretty autonomous from Washington. And with transportation, yes, that's right, as long as there's fuel to fill it up.
      1. 0
        29 December 2024 16: 59
        But in the US you have state police services, and there are several federal police services. Your town is probably part of a county or a district, and that level also has its own police structures.
        1. 0
          30 December 2024 02: 49
          Yes, there is a sheriff and his service in the county, but they do not patrol the streets, but rather act more like bailiffs, plus court security and a county jail. There is a police force in the state, but they mostly patrol the roads and issue speeding tickets. I have never heard of a federal police force, the closest thing to this is the FBI. There is no direct subordination between them, but when necessary they cooperate, and if something is really bad somewhere (like Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and the epidemic of pogroms and robberies after it), police teams were sent from all over the country to help restore order. Well, there are also armed forces under federal subordination, plus in each state a national guard (in reality, a real army with armor and aviation), legally subordinate to the governor of the state, and operationally to the Pentagon.
    2. 0
      30 December 2024 21: 56
      Maks1995
      They also have a large number of private vehicles, planes, boats, airfields, workshops, etc.
      This cannot be taken away. But we have many private workshops now.

      In case of emergency, everyone unites into communities.
      Yeah, and they loot everything they can get their hands on. You mean gangs? Remember BLM? New Orleans?
      1. 0
        31 December 2024 10: 09
        Yes. They loot. And not only theirs.
        It seems they wrote that there was looting during the emergency situation in Asia, and here, and in Latin America...
        1. 0
          31 December 2024 11: 08
          Well, I haven't heard anything about it here. Although I don't rule it out.
          But you said that they unite into communities. Is that what they call gangs? I haven't heard about any mutual aid "among them"
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 21: 42
            Read the original comment more carefully.
            "....it is played out in normal science fiction. In their case, when there is an emergency, everyone unites into communities. In our case, people flee from the cities, do not trust the authorities, everyone is for himself. (as an example, Cruz, who lived in different places both here and there)"
            i.e. as an example he cited science fiction and the supposed actions in a post-apocalypse.

            And according to the info, news, etc. - there are gangs and robberies there. It's just that here the population finds out about all sorts of Tsiplaks only later... or doesn't find out at all. But there, perhaps, they don't slow down with the coverage...
  15. +4
    28 December 2024 12: 44
    Bravo, Andrey! I definitely give you a thumbs up for raising the topic. I regularly pass by the "pencils" under construction near Sheremetyevskaya in Moscow and every time I think about how hard it will be for their residents even in the most minimal problematic conditions.
    1. +1
      31 December 2024 11: 09
      Knell wardenheart
      Well, that's their problem! Nobody is driving them to these human anthills. Personally, when I look at them, it makes my eyes twist. For some reason, they really like eye-catching coloring, especially stripes and checks. Personally, it reminds me of some kind of prisons for damned people.
      But I upvoted))) Although I usually argue with you))))
  16. +2
    28 December 2024 13: 17
    Human anthills, and even without them - just multi-story buildings, which account for the overwhelming majority of residential square meters, are in themselves an atomic bomb planted under society. Well, there can be no normal society and adequate Citizen, when the majority owns some cube of air at the height of tens of meters, hears every quarrel and every sneeze of neighbors, hates everyone around. What do you get, cramming a couple of hundred families into a concrete beehive with cells of 20-40 square meters? Social atomization, mental degradation and nothing more.
    A person torn away from the earth slowly degrades.
  17. 0
    28 December 2024 13: 23
    there was information on the site, the level of about 3000 special ammunition was pushed through by the American side, and already at that time there were slightly less than 3000 targets for destruction of nuclear weapons in Russia and about 13000 in the USA. We can stop at this...
  18. +1
    28 December 2024 13: 34
    It seems that the author came across an article a couple of years ago about the resistance of buildings to earthquakes, from which it followed that of all possible options, panel high-rise buildings with a beam load-bearing structure had the best seismic resistance, but this is not certain.

    It is so.
    BUT it is necessary to take into account that there are ribs of rigidity in the form of monolithic (capital) lintel walls.
    And what have citizens done with them during the years of "freedom"...
    What about the ribs, I saw how they made huge holes in a load-bearing column (this was on the 1st floor, and then, to the screams of the residents, the holes were plastered over (!) and covered with paint wassat).
  19. +2
    28 December 2024 13: 59
    I'll throw a little on the fan. A few Vanga thoughts for a mere mortal. laughing

    1. The number of nuclear weapons has decreased 10 times since the Cold War. There will be no nuclear winter, and no apocalypse either. After the Impact, everything will only begin... wink

    2. After Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Americans view the population (including civilians) as a RESOURCE. The same as gold, weapons, food, etc. Even children are potential soldiers and workers.
    Therefore, the strike will be on places where large numbers of people gather - cities, military and strategic facilities.
    The locations of the Strategic Missile Forces and Command Post silos are particularly dangerous.

    3. According to the type of reaction to the Impact, our elite is divided into 2 groups. One part, at the slightest sign of a threat, will rush to the Southern Hemisphere. Those who have nowhere to run - to their dens.)) laughing But considering point 1... you can SIT OUT the Impact in the den. But you won't be able to SIT OUT at all. After the Impact, those who want to finish it off and grab a piece will rush here from all sides. All the dens will be opened and the bears will be driven out under the spears. bully

    4. No one is planning to save the population MASSIVELY, at least there are no exercises, training, sewing masks in schools, etc., as in the times of the USSR. Even in the conditions of a regular war, residents of border territories are essentially left to their own devices. Khinshtein's movement does not count. No.
    Hence the conclusion: the salvation of drowning people is the work of the drowning people themselves.

    5. The chances of surviving in the city at the time of the Impact for a mere mortal are minimal. It is necessary to be ready for evacuation right now.
    The most banal things:
    a) All family documents are in a separate briefcase.
    b) A set of hiking clothes for everyone.
    c) Food and hygiene for a week.
    d) First aid kit.
    d) A couple of 12 gauge semiautomatics with a BC. Order now, if you don't have one.)) soldier
    e) Light, radio, navigation, etc. Don't forget the power sources.
    g) Gasoline for transport and generator.
    z-ya) ....... at your own discretion.....

    6. When choosing an evacuation base, consider its distance from cities, military and strategic facilities. It should also not be located in the zone of a probable radioactive trace (usually a strip 10 km wide and 40-80 km long to the East from the city or object of a possible strike).

    And the main thing is that nothing is over for those who are alive. This planet has already survived many mass extinctions, and it will survive another one! love
    1. +1
      28 December 2024 19: 49
      Quote: Arzt
      I'll throw it on the fan a little.

      Everything was "thrown on" correctly. Only the Geiger counter and masks were forgotten. laughing
      Well, and determination, goal-setting, purposefulness, lack of principles, the desire to survive at any cost and readiness for this
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. +1
    29 December 2024 11: 56
    It is clear that the USSR was "more resistant" to nuclear strikes. The population was largely dispersed among villages. And now 10% of Russia lives in Moscow... And in other large cities, too, there is overcrowding. At the same time, even in villages, the skill of autonomous living has been lost. Gas has been supplied to many villages, which has led to the demolition of wood-burning stoves, and central heating in many is provided by circulating electric pumps. In private houses, there is a centralized water supply, which has eliminated the need for wells.
    A striking example: 3 weeks ago in the Tver region there was a heavy snowfall. It snowed over the power poles (poles, Karl!), and tore down the wires. As a result, in some villages there was no power for 2 weeks! Without any bombing. At first, we saved ourselves with beneogenerators, those who had them. But the gasoline ran out, and the local gas station had not yet repaired its generator and could not sell gasoline, and it was impossible to pay for purchases with money on a plastic card, because there was no connection! The same thing happened in the village stores. Well, after a week without power, the stores and gas stations got their own generators. But the frost had already begun to thaw both in the stores and in the residents. The supplies were at the limit of their shelf life - people buried them in the snow. In the second week without power, villagers with small children were already crying. And you should have seen how old women, with tears in their eyes, met the electricians who came to restore power to their villages at the end of the second week ...
    I observed everything myself, because living on the farmstead, I felt this snowy apocalypse.
    Conclusion: It is necessary to carry out a number of measures to decentralize the population. It is necessary (perhaps at the legislative level) to have backup wood heating in rural houses. It is necessary to restore and maintain wells in rural areas in good condition.
    1. 0
      29 December 2024 17: 13
      Why did the commentators study the economic geography of the USSR so poorly in school? We must remember that the USSR, and first of all its Slavic and Baltic republics, was already a highly urbanized state by the 70s. The urban population was already significantly larger than the rural population at that time. Yes, Moscow now officially has 13 million people, but at the end of the 70s it was already 9 million. And Leningrad had 4 million. In most regions and territories of the RSFSR, from a quarter to two-fifths of the population lived in the regional center. Plus, there was a higher population density in the suburban area around these centers. In the districts, a significant part of the population also lived in the district centers, plus there was a higher population density around the district center. In turn, in most village councils or, which is almost the same thing, in collective and state farms, half, or even more, the population lived in the largest settlement, the so-called central estate. Residents of small villages, both now and in the 60s-80s, constituted a minority not only of the population of the USSR in general, but even a minority of the rural population of the Union.
  22. +1
    29 December 2024 13: 59
    The topic "raised" in the article by Andrey Mitrofanov is relevant, timely, but on one condition: when the once socialist slogan "Everything for man and for the good of man!" is the MAIN, unconditional and absolute program of action for the entire State, starting from the Head of State, ending with the last village official.... And when this program is another "campaigning" for the next elections or upcoming changes in laws and does not particularly concern those who must implement it - then what is this whole "bazaar" about? Dear Andrey Mitrofanov! Please, no offense... Your articles and notes, against the background of other experts - columnists, are always relevant, interesting and informative. Thank you!
  23. 0
    29 December 2024 20: 59
    I agree with the author that we have become much more vulnerable, and not only from what is described above. If in our time the government cannot restore order in the 3rd year of the war, then what will happen in the event of a nuclear war? Will regional authorities (or their successors) solve the problems? Local ones? Or some princelings of different levels that have appeared, which is more likely? In the USSR there was a good chance that the remaining population would unite and try to restore life in the country, and then the country itself, but today how high is this probability? I don’t even want to describe my thoughts on this matter.
  24. +1
    2 January 2025 04: 20
    Siberia and the Far East are vast undeveloped territories. It is not a problem to build a cottage from pine and make a dream come true. But people live one day at a time, here and now, as they say nowadays. They exchange the freedom of the periphery for a mild climate and transport accessibility of the European part of Russia. But as we know from history, wars took place in the western part of the country. In the east, only the civil war took place, and even then not in the active phase. I think that partly because of the cold climate, no one really wants to fight here.
    In general, anyone who looks to the future will draw conclusions.
  25. -1
    3 January 2025 08: 45
    That is, Russia is MORE VULNERABLE compared to Western countries because ONLY RUSSIA is affected by solar flares, natural disasters and apartment buildings. For example, the US is NOT affected by solar flares (I don't know why, they probably wear tinfoil hats) and the backward Americans live mainly in wooden one-story houses with stove heating and an outside toilet.