Russia's main problems in the sphere of import substitution of microelectronics

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Russia's main problems in the sphere of import substitution of microelectronics

Import substitution in microelectronics is one of the key tasks of Russian industry against the backdrop of unprecedented economic sanctions. This industry is critical to ensuring the country's technological independence, but its development faces a number of serious problems, the solution of which requires a systematic approach and cannot be delayed.

One of the main difficulties is the high dependence on foreign technologies and equipment. Modern microelectronics production is impossible without the use of lithographic installations, materials and components, which are mainly supplied from the USA, Europe and Asia. In conditions of limited access to these resources, Russia is forced to look for alternatives, but their development requires huge investments and time.



Technological lag is another serious problem. Leading global manufacturers such as TSMC and Intel have already mastered the production of chips with a 3-5 nanometer process technology, while Russian enterprises are still working at a level of 28 nanometers at best. This lag limits the ability to create competitive products, especially in the field of high-performance processors, mobile devices and advanced industrial equipment.

At the same time, the shortage of specialists and competencies remains critical. Highly qualified personnel – engineers, developers and technologists – are needed to design and manufacture microelectronics. However, there is a shortage of such specialists in Russia due to insufficient attention to specialized education and weak links between universities and industry. Many talented personnel prefer to go abroad, which exacerbates the problem.

Another significant obstacle is limited funding. The development and launch of modern microprocessors into production requires billions of dollars in investments, which are difficult to provide under budget constraints and sanctions pressure. Government support programs, such as the development of the Baikal and Elbrus processors, undoubtedly produce results, but their scale is insufficient for a global technological breakthrough.

In addition, Russian companies face difficulties integrating into global supply chains. Modern microelectronics is created in the context of international cooperation, where each country specializes in a certain stage – from design to assembly. Sanctions and trade restrictions make access to these chains difficult, which also narrows the possibilities for local production.

Finally, the lack of stable domestic demand remains an important problem. Most Russian companies, especially in the civilian sectors, prefer to purchase proven foreign solutions, considering them more reliable and productive. This slows down the development of domestic companies, which lose incentives for large-scale production and innovation.

A comprehensive approach is needed to solve these problems. The state must increase investment in infrastructure and R&D, develop programs to support personnel, and stimulate cooperation between research institutes and businesses. It is also important to create conditions for expanding domestic demand for domestic microelectronics, including through mandatory quotas for its use in strategic industries (which, in fact, is already being done).

Large-scale reforms and long-term investments can become the basis for a technological breakthrough, but this will require the consolidation of efforts by the state, science and the private sector. In turn, without systemic changes, Russia risks remaining among the catching-up countries in the microelectronics market, losing its chances of achieving real technological independence.

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  1. +12
    24 December 2024 13: 56
    Here we need to understand and accept the simple truth that a Russian official and the development of the country are two incompatible concepts.
    1. 0
      5 January 2025 22: 32
      Chip production is profitable when production programs amount to billions of units. Russia does not have such markets for electronic products. That is the problem. The solution is to form domestic demand for electronic products in such volumes. China started with chips for telephone payment cards in pay phones. This allowed it to start working profitably and develop the industry.
  2. +12
    24 December 2024 14: 01
    That's how it comes back to haunt you, but millions have been wasted in nanotechnology with Chubais and his sharash montage, a cluster of idlers, otherwise if we buy something, why build our own, it's cheaper to buy, and not that's why we need to create software yesterday and build factories for the production of chips and microelectronics by buying production technology and equipment, and something can be copied, maybe this is not good, and industrial espionage has not been cancelled by anyone, everything that is for the good of the Motherland is not criminal, especially since they do not disdain it, because the Anglo-Saxons and China are ripping off technology, don't cry
    1. +3
      24 December 2024 14: 25
      Quote from: tank_killer156
      That's how it comes back to haunt you, but millions have been wasted in nanotechnology with Chubais and his scam installation

      Three years before Chubais's New Year's speech that he had received so much money from Putin at Rusnano that his team was unable to spend it all, I spoke with people who assured me that a salary of 20 rubles in microelectronics was considered very, very high. I was actually speaking with an engineer, not a manager.
      1. 0
        25 December 2024 11: 56
        Well, an engineer is not a manager, and not a relative, so it’s quite possible.
    2. 0
      30 December 2024 01: 24
      According to the microelectronics engineers themselves, that same Chubais took care of domestic microelectronics whenever possible. I have not heard any negative feedback from them.
  3. +6
    24 December 2024 14: 03
    But why does the state impose all sorts of restrictions on the purchase of cars, and for some reason it still does not develop? Even now there is no impetus for the development of unmanned systems, military correspondents write, the state does not help talented firms, the Maviks that the fighters praise are donated by the people, Everything is monopolized 1 2 firms and that's it, so where. what will develop, Even the troops are still only going to introduce units of unmanned systems,
  4. +1
    24 December 2024 14: 09
    There is only one problem, these are resources, Russia does not have (nobody does) millions of man-hours, microelectronics is increasingly involved in the division of labor. The last mastodon Intel has practically collapsed, for a long time it was a company that did everything, developed processors, developed factories for their production and, in fact, organized production. And as a result, fabless companies AMD, Nvidia are winning the market from Intel, and so successfully that there are already talks about the extinguishment of Intel by Qualcomm, plus Intel is cutting people and is going to transfer production to a separate company.

    Microelectronics is also an industry that needs a huge market to recoup investments and generate funds for further development.
    1. +2
      24 December 2024 14: 36
      Quote: Oldrover
      And as a result, fabless companies AMD, Nvidia win the market from Intel, and so successfully that there is already talk about paying off Intel,

      For my own needs, I buy all sorts of small things from Chinese manufacturers, such as buttons, buses, terminals, jumpers. They recently expanded the list and offered jumpers for grounding. This jumper can be made in an unheated room. Wire and 2 tips. The cost of a piece of wire is 5 rubles, the cost of 1 tip is 5 rubles. The cost of a tool for cutting the wire, stripping the insulation, crimping is a maximum of 5000 rubles. A chair and a workbench for the worker. The jumper itself costs 100 rubles from the Chinese. I can make it in 30 seconds. That is, an entrepreneur receives from an electrician 85 rubles * 2 jumpers per minute * 60 minutes per hour, approximately 10 rubles per hour of profit. Surely the same is true for electronics. The concept of a giant market comes down to the simplicity of horizontal connections and obtaining a commodity loan.
      1. 0
        24 December 2024 16: 07
        Probably, it's all about scale, for example, if you need to spend (if you believe open data) $10 billion on a conventional modern 40 nm factory, then in addition to operating costs, the price of the chips produced will also include a part necessary to recoup the initial investment in a reasonable period of time. If the factory produces 100 thousand chips per year, this will be one price per chip, if 100 million, then it will be completely different.
      2. +1
        17 January 2025 22: 22
        That is, the entrepreneur receives from the electrical installation worker 85 rubles * 2 jumpers per minute * 60 minutes per hour, approximately 10 rubles per hour of profit.

        In words, it's all simple. But in our reality, there are few people willing to do this. In our country, producing something will cost you more. There is no motivation at all. They will fleece you. In our country, you can make a profit by extracting natural resources, speculating (buying and selling) and providing some services. This is what people are mainly engaged in. Until economic conditions, the tax system and the state's attitude towards the manufacturer change, nothing serious is expected in the development of our own production. So only empty chatter and good wishes, as in the notorious import substitution program.
        1. 0
          17 January 2025 22: 43
          Quote: wladimirjankov
          It's all simple in words. But in our reality, there are few people willing to do this. In our country, producing something or other will cost you more.

          In Russia, high production costs are largely due to the disproportionately large share of management and office personnel.
    2. 0
      29 December 2024 09: 07
      Quote: Oldrover
      And as a result, fabless companies AMD, Nvidia win the market from Intel

      They may be winning the market, but Intel's profits are growing and exceeding AMD's profits.
  5. +8
    24 December 2024 14: 09
    The 3-5 nanometer process technology is largely a marketing invention. In reality, everything is somewhat different. For those interested, there is a good article on this topic... https://www.ixbt.com/platform/nanometers-2020.html

    Again - the message of the article is not very clear. No - of course, in this area we need to actively overcome the lag. But! All these sophisticated chips of recent years are used in rather narrow areas - the same smartphones. I hope - no one is going to compete with the Chinese here? At least - in the coming years? But in the industrial and especially the military sphere - such cannot be used. Because of extreme tenderness... And nothing like that is needed there by and large. Even an ancient Pentium is quite a processor there. If you remove the graphical shell and start writing software for it manually...
    1. 0
      24 December 2024 14: 22
      Yes and no, back in the 2000s they also said that 90nm was more than enough, all these 60-45-32 are unreliable excess for gamers, and now it turns out that you can’t make your own modern FPV drone, AWACS aircraft, etc. on such a technological process.
      1. +2
        24 December 2024 14: 24
        And who told you not to do this? what Would you like to find out what technologies are used to make the electronics of, for example, the F-22? what
        1. +3
          24 December 2024 14: 37
          And who told you not to do this?


          It can be done, but it will be inferior in capabilities (performance, energy consumption, dimensions) to a product made on modern chips using modern technology.


          Would you like to find out what technologies are used to make the electronics of, for example, the F-22?


          What F-22 are you talking about, the one that was in 97, it was made on processors that were modern at that time.

          The Common Integrated Processor (CIP), developed by Raytheon Systems Company, provides the memory,
          I/O, data, and signal processing capability required for the IAS. It has an open, expandable architecture
          radar supporting, EW, CNI, mission software and Controls, and Displays processing requirements. The
          F-22 core processing system uses two installed CIPs (with growth space for a third). Each CIP contains
          66 SEM-E slots in two rows. Due to the wide utilization of common modules, only 13 unique CIP module
          types are utilized. To provide for additional growth, each CIP is about two-thirds populated.
          32.3.1.1 CIP LRM Types
          The Dual Data Processing Element (DDPE) is the backbone of the CIP's digital processing capability. Each
          DDPE has two independent, 32-bit, 25-MHz Intel 80960 (i960®) microprocessors on each side of a SEME module. Each side of the DDPE operates as a general purpose computer executing Ada code. The DDPE
          module is Liquid Flow-Through (LFT) cooled, weighs 1.2 lb and is connected to the CIP backplane by
          a standard connector which uses 332 electrical pins and 4 fiber optic and two coolant connections. The
          IAS employs13 DDPEs to support radar, EW, CNI, and MS/W functions. Currently, product improvement
          programs plan to replace the Intel i960® with a state-of-art processor in 2005.
          The Dual Signal Processing Element (DSPE) is a generic signal processor that executes mathematically
          intensive functions such as the state matrix multiplications used in Kalman filter propagation and Fast
          Fourier Transform (FFT) algorithms used in radar signal processing. Each DSPE uses two independent
          pipelines to perform high bandwidth signal processing. Each individual SPE can execute a fixed point
          instruction within one 25 MHz clock cycle and can operate at up to 18 operations per instruction. The
          DSPE consumes nearly 80 W of power, resides on a Liquid Flow-Through (LFT) cooled SEM-E module,
          and is connected to the CIP backplane by a standard connector (332 electrical pins and 4 fiber optic and
          two coolant connections). The IAS employs 9 DSPEs to support radar, EW, and MS/W functions.
          The DPE/Mil-Std-1553 I/O Port (DPE/1553) features a Data Processing Element (DPE) on side A and
          a Mil-Std-1553 I/O interface port on side B.
          The Global Bulk Memory (GBM) is a memory complex available to modules residing on the CIP
          backplane. Each GBM features 12 Mbytes of available bulk memory, consumes about 60 W of power,
          resides on a Liquid Flow-Through Cooled (LFT) SEM-E module, and is connected to the CIP backplane
          by a standard 360-pin connector.
          The Gateway module (GWY) provides a bi-directional communications path between Parallel Interface
          (PI) bus segments within a CIP. The GWY module also provides communications between two CIPs via
          the fiber-optic HSDB.
          The Low Latency Signal Processor (LLSP) uses a Texas Instruments SMJ320C31 (C-31) processor to
          provide the interface between the CNI front end and the CIP backplane via a fiber optic line. It performs
          low latency signal processing for the CNI system.
          The Graphics Processor/Video Interface (GPVI) features a fiberoptic interface to the cockpit MultiFunction Displays (MFDs). One side of the GPVI module is a standard DPE, the other side performs
          graphics processing and I/O, generating up to 30 frames per second and supporting up to two MFDs
          displays simultaneously.
          The Non-RF Signal Processor (NRSP) is an Infra-Red (IR) signal processor that includes a pipeline
          processing structure optimized to perform IR impulse-response high-pass filtering, two-dimensional
          windowing for spatial filtering, data normalization, and thresholding for IR sensors. One NRSP can
          support up to three Missile Launch Detectors (MLDs).
          The Data Encryption/Decryption Device (KOV-5) is an integrated Communications Security (COMSEC)
          unit housed in a SEM-E module. It can perform any 2 of 17 different COMSEC, data encryption, data
          decryption, cryptographic functions. The KOV-5 supports encryption/decryption functions of voice,
          text, data, and communications links. The encryption/decryption engine is National Security Agency
          (NSA) certified. The IAS employs 5 KOV-5 modules to support various crypto functions.
          © 2001 by CRC Press LLC
          Voltage Regulator modules (VR) receive 270 VDC aircraft power and output 5 VDC and 5.2
          VDC to the CIP backplane.
          The User Console Interface (UCIF) is a two-sided LRM featuring a DPE on side A and UCIF hardware
          on side B. The UCIF is a nonproduction module which supports instrumentation and access to the CIP
          I/O backplanes during integration and test activities.
          The Fiber Optic Transmit/Receive Network Interface module (FNIU) provides low latency, high bandwidth
          communications between a CIP processing cluster and the sensors. The FNIU supports bi-directional
          communications to the Parallel Interface bus or directly into the GBMs at the rate of 400 Mbps to the GBMs.

          https://helitavia.com/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_32.pdf
    2. +4
      24 December 2024 14: 30
      There is one area that cannot be ignored - artificial intelligence. It requires processors with a very large number of cores, like NVidia, the more the better. And here the smaller the topological size, the more cores, the better.
      1. 0
        30 December 2024 01: 28
        AI requires a lot of thought before churning out a multi-core monster like Nvidia. It turns out to be too gluttonous and requires supervision and care.
        1. 0
          30 December 2024 15: 15
          [https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%80]
          The AI ​​processor contains
          ... Cerebras' experimental superprocessor contains 1,2 trillion transistors organized into 400 AI-optimized computing cores...


          [https://hightech.plus/2024/12/25/xai-ilona-maska-reshila-problemu-nehvatki-energii-dlya-superkompyutera-colossus]
          supercomputer for AI contains

          ...100 graphic cards...
          AI requires a lot of thought before churning out a multi-core monster like Nvidia. It turns out to be too gluttonous and requires supervision and care.

          You can offer your solution. I am sure you will be listened to with interest.
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 20: 09
            The decision has already been made. Think, think a lot. Because an organic specimen, even in the most primitive creatures, is billions of times more effective and reliable.
            1. 0
              1 January 2025 16: 26
              In connection with what I said to you (see the next post), I think there is nothing to talk about with you.
              The conversation is over
            2. 0
              9 January 2025 07: 52
              Quote from barbos
              The decision has already been made. Think, think a lot. Because an organic specimen, even in the most primitive creatures, is billions of times more effective and reliable.

              Well, yes, the monkey brain is capable of performing multi-billion dollar calculations. Theoretically.
    3. +4
      24 December 2024 14: 41
      If you remove the graphical shell and start writing software for it manually...


      So write software by hand, you will earn billions if you can make software (for example, a hypervisor, on which everything else will be raised, or a DBMS) that will show performance on ancient Pentiums comparable to modern Xeons.
      Banks, providers, data centers, etc. will line up to you if you can provide software that will save them on hardware/servers. I understand that people who are far from programming think that in the past there were programmers who built operating systems on punch cards, and now everyone is stupid and lazy.
      1. +1
        24 December 2024 21: 30
        Quote: Oldrover
        I understand that people who are far from programming think that in the past there were programmers who created operating systems on punch cards, but now everyone is stupid and lazy.
        to be honest, when you work with software from Sberbank or GSU services, that's exactly how it feels
      2. 0
        30 December 2024 01: 30
        It takes millions of man-hours and people themselves to write and debug it. These little people, if you believe the rumors, can be a little capricious and want a lot of money for it.
  6. +4
    24 December 2024 14: 09
    In our country the main thing is that banks and oligarchs have money. They need it more. Science and production will count pennies because they don't give money there.
    1. 0
      24 December 2024 14: 44
      Quote: Ignatius555
      In our country the main thing is that banks and oligarchs have money. They need it more. Science and production will count pennies because they don't give money there.

      For example, Stankin. It positions itself as a manufacturer of CNC and PLC, but the programmable controller is short and expensive. On the other hand, there is a Tatar grandfather who designs and single-handedly produces CNC for electrical discharge machines, generators for electrical erosion, and his main problem is who to sell or transfer the production and technology he has developed. He is probably ready to sell to the Chinese or Iranians for 3 rubles, and he can give it to a Tatar or Tatar woman who is really ready to design and produce. But there are no takers. His Chinese friend has already built a plant with a full cycle of machines, including electrical discharge machines of all models from cutting to drilling and simply does not know where to invest funds and what to come up with.
  7. +4
    24 December 2024 14: 15
    "The Main Problems of Russia in the Sphere of Import Substitution of Microelectronics"
    She is not.
    1. +3
      24 December 2024 14: 46
      That's why it's stuck on photolithographs, microelectronics requires materials of very high purity, not only semiconductors, but metals, chemical reagents, plastics, dielectrics. Installations for the formation of semiconductor structures, where the chambers must have an ultra-high vacuum, or an extremely aggressive working environment, or temperatures from nitrogen to 3000..4000K and other extreme conditions. We need a developed chemical, metallurgical, light and heavy engineering industry and developed education from vocational schools to universities, and not one plant with a photolithograph on a pedestal.
      1. +1
        24 December 2024 14: 56
        Quote: Sensor
        That's why it's stuck on photolithographs, microelectronics requires materials of very high purity, not only semiconductors, but metals, chemical reagents, plastics, dielectrics. Installations for the formation of semiconductor structures, where the chambers must have an ultra-high vacuum, or an extremely aggressive working environment, or temperatures from nitrogen to 3000..4000K and other extreme conditions. We need a developed chemical, metallurgical, light and heavy engineering industry and developed education from vocational schools to universities, and not one plant with a photolithograph on a pedestal.

        But then it will be obvious that Autarky is the path to permanent backwardness and cooperation is needed. And this will be against the political course
        1. +2
          24 December 2024 21: 29
          a constant lag is when the calculation was that we would sell oil and buy everything else, but it turned out that we would only buy what we were allowed to buy
      2. +3
        24 December 2024 17: 06
        either an extremely aggressive working environment, or temperatures from nitrogen to 3000..4000K and other extreme conditions.
        There is no need for 3000 K there, 1200 Celsius, or even lower, is quite sufficient for diffusion furnaces.
        1. +2
          24 December 2024 17: 31
          There is no need for 3000 K, 1200

          The application of thin films from which conductors are formed is carried out either by ion sputtering or evaporation conductive material, including refractory metals: chromium, nickel, titanium - these are sublayers and the main layer of aluminum.
          The diffusion of impurity into silicon occurs at about 1000 K, but in silicon carbide it is twice as high. SiC PP devices remain operational up to 800 K, extremely expensive for promising devices.
          1. 0
            24 December 2024 19: 30
            SiC PP devices remain operational up to 800 K, extremely expensive for promising devices.
            The performance of SiC devices at high temperatures is greatly exaggerated. Yes, they do not fail, but their parameters deteriorate catastrophically at high temperatures. They are still expensive, but they have found their niche. The price will fall over time.
  8. +7
    24 December 2024 15: 26
    Our problem is not with electronics, but with the people at the top who don’t know, can’t and don’t want to do anything. Hucksters!
    1. 0
      30 December 2024 01: 38
      I've been to the housing office for household needs. They sit in the basement and cope with what they have as best they can. The management company doesn't give me any more money or people. An opportunity brought me to the village paramedic station. There are no words. I don't know how people work. I go to the post office. There aren't enough people. Our problems are not at the top. Everything is right next to us. Horror is happening on the ground. On the ground they put a device on everything and do whatever they want. If you don't like it, go complain. The sky is high, God is far away.
  9. +1
    24 December 2024 16: 16
    Given limited access to these resources, Russia is forced to look for alternatives, but their development requires huge investments and time.

    If the issue is being raised so acutely, isn't it time to voice this unaffordable sum for the state and put pressure on our 125 billionaires and their common banks, who have managed to report profits even under the current conditions? Or: "Everyone to fight Zelensky!" doesn't concern them?
    1. +2
      24 December 2024 17: 38
      If the question is put so sharply,

      Only in nanotechnology was an immediate return expected after an investment of money.
      Decades will pass, creating from scratch destroyed industries, cultivating leading specialists.
      1. +1
        25 December 2024 07: 57
        Decades will pass, creating from scratch destroyed industries, cultivating leading specialists.

        Maybe not dozens, but it is definitely not within the framework of a market economy.
    2. +1
      25 December 2024 09: 08
      "Or: "Everyone to fight Zelensky!" doesn't concern them?"
      It doesn't concern them. hi
  10. +1
    24 December 2024 16: 39
    Let's roughly estimate the scale of the problem. So, yesterday we woke up (not for the first time in the last decades) and began to frantically paddle our flippers in a certain direction.
    Specifically this time it's microelectronics. To be fair, we didn't wake up yesterday, but we were lying in bed for a really long time - the alarm rang in 2014 (and if you consider the creaks with which we were sold photolithographs even in the best years, and even earlier). It's just that until a certain "for X" we still had high-level expectations that everything would be like in the old days. Well, or that everything would go "backwards". That is, of course, "backwards", a-haha..
    In short, at a certain moment, someone up there snapped a seven-tailed whip and ordered "come on, do it!" and then after some time, everything repeated itself again with the addition of "urgently, urgently!". This kind of fall of the heavens on the firmament is nothing new for us, as I already noted at the beginning, but the problem is that tomorrow the focus of attention may shift or something may change, for example, we will come to an agreement with the Chinese. And then, within the country, the focus of the Eye of Sauron may shift from this topic and there will begin hocus-pocus with financing, resolving compatibility issues, organizational implementation, and so on.
    Well, just like the kid played and played with a dump truck and then they gave him a Robocop and he, how can I say, abandoned the dump truck. Are there such risks? Definitely.
    And business understands this - that's why they are in no hurry to get involved in this business. We had many projects that were launched with bravura, spent a lot of money, and then all this... well, you know it yourself.
    In turn, those who will launch this production - they understand this. However, this trend is beyond their control, and no one is particularly sweating over bringing interested parties and potential producers under one roof and simply grinding with them, convincing them that a dump truck is a "favorite toy". Because it is not appropriate to communicate when there are high matters where the fate of universes is decided.

    Can we create our own lithograph? We can. And we even need to. And even the day before yesterday. There are very many "epic excommunicated" in the world, to whom we can palm off our "cheburchips" and make a profit from this, not to mention our growing needs. But we definitely don't WANT TO GET INTO THIS to the end. Both those who decide and those who should be interested inside the country. Because everyone understands that everything can change tomorrow...
  11. +1
    24 December 2024 18: 40

    Finally, the lack of stable domestic demand remains an important problem. Most Russian companies, especially in the civilian sectors, prefer to purchase proven foreign solutions, considering them more reliable and productive.

    In the civilian sectors, NO ONE buys domestic microelectronics, they buy only for the military, because they are forced to do so. It is clear why, both the technical lag and the hyper-high prices. It is not worth expecting that the production of microelectronics will be profitable in the coming years or even decades. Therefore, gigantic infusions of state money are needed for the development of microelectronics. And it is time to pay engineers and technologists more than pizza delivery people.
    Where to get money? - obviously from those who earn money on the export of natural resources. It is clear that this requires a strong will at the level of the government and the president.
    1. +1
      25 December 2024 07: 59
      It is clear that this requires a strong will at the government and presidential level.

      For this, first of all, a planned economy is needed. For example, see China
      1. 0
        25 December 2024 09: 11
        For this, first of all, a planned economy is needed. For example, see China

        I think there is no need to contrast planned and market economies. Clear planning is certainly necessary when solving global problems, but, for example, retail trade, the service sector, agriculture and many other industries only lose from government intervention.
        1. 0
          25 December 2024 09: 25
          but, for example, retail trade, the service sector, agriculture and many other industries only lose from government intervention.

          In the past (1950s) it was like that. Now it is not necessary. Now thanks to technology there is a different logistics, see, for example, Ozon, and other online traders. And these Internet companies are very large enterprises. So progress in technology has done its job and retail trade is now a large enterprise that can be perfectly managed by the state.
          1. 0
            25 December 2024 10: 52
            Ozone, Wildberries - these are private enterprises, which, thank God, the state has not yet gotten its hands on! My life experience shows that the state manages processes extremely clumsily, private individuals do it much more successfully, and if a private individual screws up, he goes bankrupt. The state can screw up endlessly due to its monopoly position, and corruption flourishes precisely under state management. But there are, of course, tasks that only the state can handle, in our country this is microelectronics, for example (although in the West this industry is developing much more successfully in private corporations). I really hope that Korolevs and Tupolevs will appear in our new industries, and the state will not send them to concentration camps and sharashkas.
            1. +1
              25 December 2024 11: 05
              Ozone, Wildberries - these are private enterprises, which, thank God, the state has not yet reached with its little hands! My life experience shows that the state manages processes extremely clumsily, private individuals do it much more successfully, and if a private individual screws up, he goes bankrupt. The state can screw up endlessly due to its monopoly position, and corruption flourishes precisely under state management

              My life experience and the experience of the USSR and the PRC say the opposite.
              I really hope that we will have Korolevs and Tupolevs in new industries.

              They won't appear. For them to appear, a socialist system is needed.
              1. +1
                25 December 2024 11: 50
                My life experience and the experience of the USSR and the PRC say the opposite.

                I was in China 20 years ago. Private entrepreneurship is very developed there.
                As for the USSR, engineers were never so oppressed anywhere else; engineers were never considered anything other than "rotten intelligentsia", and at any factory an illiterate worker had a higher salary than an engineer who had studied for 19 years (10 years at school, 5 at the institute and 4 in graduate school).
                1. +1
                  25 December 2024 12: 43
                  I have already cited an excerpt from the PRC constitution the other day. [https://asia-business.ru/law/law1/pravo/constitution/]
                  Article 6. The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, public ownership and collective ownership.

                  Article 7. The driving force of the national economy is the state economy, i.e. the socialist economy with public ownership. The state ensures the strengthening and development of the national economy.

                  There is NEP, it will pass in due time.
                  As for the USSR, engineers were never so oppressed anywhere else; engineers were never considered anything other than "rotten intelligentsia", and at any factory an illiterate worker had a higher salary than an engineer who had studied for 19 years (10 years at school, 5 at the institute and 4 in graduate school).

                  They paid for their work, not for their pretty eyes (for their diploma). If engineers had been "oppressed", it is unlikely that the USSR would have become the state it became.
                  After graduate school, you are generally supposed to be a candidate.
                  1. +1
                    25 December 2024 15: 30
                    I have already cited an excerpt from the PRC constitution the other day.

                    We also have a lot written in our constitution. I am speaking from the facts, there is a market economy, very active entrepreneurial activity (I had and have contacts with Chinese industrialists), for example, the number of dollar billionaires in China in 2021 was 1185 people.
                    They paid according to work, and not for pretty eyes (for a diploma).

                    It seems you are completely out of the loop, the engineer's salary was in no way connected to the results of his work and was always lower than the workers' salary. The phrase "Punish the innocent, reward the uninvolved" - has been around since then.
                    If engineers had been "oppressed", it is unlikely that the USSR would have become the state that it became.

                    Yes, the USSR became a decaying state and eventually collapsed due to problems in the economy. Including due to the technical backwardness from the West. I hope it is not difficult to find a logical connection between the technical backwardness and the attitude towards engineers.
                    After graduate school, you are generally supposed to be a candidate.

                    Not necessarily, "perestroika" came, there was no time for that, there was nothing to eat, and two children on my hands. So I defended my thesis much later in another place, working not at a state enterprise (where at that time they stopped paying salaries altogether), but at an LLC (I can compare) and on a different topic.
                    There is much to argue about regarding socialism; what most people call socialism was called "state capitalism" by the classics, and in Stalin's time it was also called "state capitalism" with a decent admixture of eastern despotism, while what looks more like socialism was built by social democrats in some countries like Sweden, where they tried to reduce the income gap between rich and poor by various measures, primarily tax measures.
                    1. +2
                      25 December 2024 18: 00
                      We also have a lot written in our constitution.

                      Usual liberal demagogy to pass off their blissful dreams as truth. I lived long enough in the USSR and the Russian Federation, the constitution directly influences life.
                      It seems you are completely out of the loop, the engineer's salary was in no way connected to the results of his work and was always lower than the workers' salary. The phrase "Punish the innocent, reward the uninvolved" - has been around since then.

                      I have been working as an engineer since 1986, right after graduating. Electronics engineer.
                      The phrase "Punish the innocent, reward the innocent" has been around since then.

                      I am 60 years old, and this phrase, which you present as commonplace, is the first time in my life I have heard it.
                      Yes, the USSR became a decaying state and eventually collapsed due to economic problems.

                      Economics has nothing to do with this at all. I wrote 4 articles on the topic, if you are interested I will provide links. Discussing this in one sentence simply does not make sense.
                      Including because of the technical lag behind the West. I hope it is not difficult to find a logical connection between the technical lag and the attitude towards engineers.

                      The launch of Buran was made, of course, due to the technical lag behind the West. Don't talk nonsense.
                      Not necessarily, "perestroika" came, there was no time for that, there was nothing to eat, and two children on my hands. So I defended my thesis much later in another place, working not at a state enterprise (where at that time they stopped paying salaries altogether), but at an LLC (I can compare) and on a different topic.

                      Yes, I also defended my thesis not in the USSR for personal reasons. But in a state institution.
                      There is much to argue about regarding socialism; what most people call socialism was called "state capitalism" by the classics, and in Stalin's time it was also called "state capitalism" with a decent admixture of eastern despotism, while what looks more like socialism was built by social democrats in some countries like Sweden, where they tried to reduce the income gap between rich and poor by various measures, primarily tax measures.

                      There is much debate about socialism, but the truth is simple - it was the most democratic state of workers and peasants with an advanced planned economy. Everything else is liberal nonsense, which is confirmed only by reference to Gorbachev's betrayal.
                      1. 0
                        25 December 2024 18: 24
                        Typical liberal demagogy

                        I have never considered myself a liberal
                        I have been working as an engineer since 1986, right after graduating. Electronics engineer.

                        And your salary was higher than that of the workers at the factory?
                        The launch of Buran was made, of course, due to the technical lag behind the West.

                        I had little to do with the Buran tests, I remember that project well. It was 90% a repeat of the Shuttle (with a big delay in terms), although it had its own special features - for example, an automatic landing system.
                        There is much debate about socialism, but the truth is simple: it was the most democratic state of workers and peasants with an advanced planned economy.

                        The only objective indicator of economic development is labor productivity, and in this indicator we have lagged and continue to lagging behind advanced countries by a factor of five.
                        It’s not interesting to argue with you, you don’t provide arguments, and everything you disagree with you declare to be nonsense.
                      2. +1
                        25 December 2024 19: 48
                        I have never considered myself a liberal

                        It is important that you consider yourself an apologist for capitalism, which means you are a liberal.
                        And your salary was higher than that of the workers at the factory?

                        A strange question. In some cases, a piecework worker could earn more than the plant director. What case are you talking about? Or is this just an abstract question?
                        Then the abstract answer is that I consider payment for work to be fair.
                        I had little to do with the Buran tests, I remember that project well. It was 90% a repeat of the Shuttle (with a big delay in terms), although it had its own special features - for example, an automatic landing system.

                        Well, yes, just like any airplane has wings, a tail and an engine. They all have the same thing, right?
                        The only objective indicator of economic development is labor productivity, and in this indicator we have lagged and continue to lagging behind advanced countries by a factor of five.

                        Blatant lie. If you are a candidate of science, you should understand that when citing such facts you are obliged to cite the source of the data, which you have never done. I am not obliged to take your word for it. Will you provide the source?
                        It’s not interesting to argue with you, you don’t provide arguments, and everything you disagree with you declare to be nonsense.

                        see above about the source
                        And I will show you some figures according to Ioffe Ya.A. We and the Planet: Figures and Facts
                        7th edition, supplemented. - M.: Politizdat. 1988. - 256 p.
                        On page 84 there are figures for the growth rate of national income for 1961-1986. You can take a look.
                        I won’t rewrite everything, I’ll say USSR - 5.5, USA - 3.1.
                      3. 0
                        26 December 2024 02: 16
                        It is important that you consider yourself an apologist for capitalism, which means you are a liberal.

                        I do not consider myself an apologist for capitalism. You have a specific manner of conducting a discussion, you stick labels on your opponent, invent his views for him, and then successfully destroy these positions. It is not necessary to read the opponent's posts. Let me remind you of my first post:
                        It is not reasonable to expect that the production of microelectronics will be profitable in the coming years or even decades. Therefore, gigantic infusions of state money are needed for the development of microelectronics.

                        I'd say USSR - 5.5, USA - 3.1.

                        The well-known low base effect.
                      4. 0
                        26 December 2024 07: 34
                        The well-known low base effect.

                        Well, yes, 70 years after the revolution, 40 after the war and still a low base. In general, there is nothing to tell you.
                      5. 0
                        26 December 2024 02: 25
                        By the beginning of the 90s, growth had stopped, which led to the collapse of the USSR.
                        In terms of economic power (in terms of gross domestic product, GDP) in 1970-1977 the USSR occupied 2nd place in the world after the USA; in 1978-1985 – 3rd place after the USA and Japan, in 1986 the FRG took 3rd place, pushing the USSR to 4th, and finally, according to the results of 1991 the USSR was in 7th place in the world. Moreover, if in 1970 the US GDP was 2,5 times greater than the USSR GDP, then in 1991 it was already 8 times greater. During the same time, the GDP in the USA increased 5,7 times, in the USSR – 1,8 times, reaching its maximum value in 1983 (2,3 times higher than in 1970). Read more: https://investfuture.ru/news/id/za-dvadcat-let-do-raspada-sssr-paradoksy-ekonomik-sovetskogo-soyuza-i-ssha © Investfuture.ru
                      6. 0
                        26 December 2024 07: 37
                        Read what GDP is and how it relates to reality
                        [https://svpressa.ru/economy/article/410984/?utm_source=finobzor.ru]
                      7. 0
                        25 December 2024 18: 28
                        The phrase "Punish the innocent, reward the innocent" has been around since then.

                        I am 60 years old, and this phrase, which you present as commonplace, is the first time in my life I have heard it.

                        Well, I'm older, but that's not the point. Google, for example, knows this phrase well.
                        https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85%2C+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85
                      8. +1
                        25 December 2024 19: 35
                        Google knows this phrase well, for example

                        From this it follows that
                        The phrase "Punish the innocent, reward the innocent" has been around since then.
                        ?
                        Among people like you, maybe. But that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the USSR.
                      9. +2
                        26 December 2024 09: 18
                        Among people like you, maybe. But that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the USSR.

                        This only means that you have never stood next to any developments, since the folklore is unknown. The picture is widely known to those who are engaged in development, production and implementation.
                      10. 0
                        26 December 2024 09: 20
                        This only means that you have never stood next to any developments, since folklore is unknown.

                        I've been dealing with them all my life.
                        You and I come from different layers of the USSR, I suppose. And it's good that I didn't meet people like you there.
                      11. +1
                        26 December 2024 14: 14
                        This is definitely not our man, and don't get involved in the discussion - no need to feed the troll.
                  2. 0
                    30 December 2024 01: 50
                    I have already cited an excerpt from the PRC constitution the other day

                    You don't have the self-control and Stalin's constitution? They say the contents were quite democratic for those times.

                    If engineers had been "oppressed", it is unlikely that the USSR would have become the state that it became.
                    In Starinov's memoirs there was a little about his meeting with Ilyushin, who, like many engineers, lived and worked in a separate room. In a separate room from his family and relatives. Well, the founder of domestic cybernetics did not serve time and his relatives were not avoided like lepers?
                    1. 0
                      30 December 2024 15: 21
                      You don't have the self-control and Stalin's constitution? They say the contents were quite democratic for those times.

                      Judging by your answers to other questions, showing ignorance of the facts when answering them, it is not for you to discuss the issue of the influence of the constitution on the life of the state. Learn first.


                      If engineers had been "oppressed", it is unlikely that the USSR would have become the state that it became.
                      In Starinov's memoirs there was a little about his meeting with Ilyushin, who, like many engineers, lived and worked in a separate room. In a separate room from his family and relatives. Well, the founder of domestic cybernetics did not serve time and his relatives were not avoided like lepers?


                      If you called Ilyushin the founder of domestic cybernetics, then this means again that you have absolutely no knowledge in this area. What is the point of discussing anything with a person who, having absolutely no knowledge, starts spitting on the history of the USSR?
                      1. 0
                        31 December 2024 20: 23
                        If you called Ilyushin the founder of domestic cybernetics, then this means again that you have absolutely no knowledge in this area.
                        Aren't you ashamed not to know one of the founders of Soviet cybernetics, engineer-admiral and academician A. I. Berg? What sense can we talk about after this?
                      2. 0
                        1 January 2025 16: 24
                        Above you called another person a cyberneticist:
                        Starinov's memoirs contained little about his meeting with Ilyushin.

                        and now instead of an apology, another person appeared in your words
                        Academician A.I. Berg

                        with simultaneous claims against me
                        Aren't you ashamed not to know?

                        If you think that I will waste my time arguing with you, then you are hoping in vain. I think that there is nothing to talk about with you, given your level of knowledge (see previous posts) and your behavior.
                        Conversation is over.
              2. 0
                30 December 2024 01: 46
                For them to appear, a socialist system is needed.
                Our country is rich in nuggets and unique individuals. But not all of them survive and the system has nothing to do with it. For example, we can take the history of our own I. Musk. How many technical geniuses ended up in the ground under the socialist system? How many and where did Korolev and Tupolev do their time under the socialist system? The fact that they survived and worked is simply fantastic and a coincidence. S. P. Korolev was a goner in the camp, the fact that he survived is a great miracle.
                All microelectronics of the socialist system are KT315 transistors and K155 series microcircuits.
                1. 0
                  30 December 2024 15: 18
                  Our country is rich in nuggets and unique individuals. But not all of them live long enough and the system has nothing to do with it. For example, we can take the story of our own I. Mask.

                  Musk is just a bag of money and nothing more. Don't even try to put him next to Korolev.
                  He has a lot of money and he throws it around, hoping to make money on breakthrough technologies (although he probably has an amateur interest in science).
                  In electric cars, in Hyperloop, in space, in AI, etc. It would be good if he understood at least one of these areas at the level of a simple engineer, which is not a fact.


                  How many technical geniuses ended up in the ground under the socialist system?

                  And how much?
                  In numbers:
                  THE USSR:
                  In the mid-1980s, the USSR accounted for a quarter of all scientific workers in the world. According to WIPO data, the USSR was more than twice as likely to produce inventions as the United States and almost twice as likely to produce inventions as Japan. [Ioffe Ya.A. We and the Planet: Figures and Facts. Moscow: Politizdat, 1988. 256 p.]
                  China:
                  here it says that China has overtaken the US in the number of patents in the field of semiconductors
                  [https://hightech.plus/2024/10/24/kitai-operedil-ssha-po-chislu-patentov-na-poluprovodniki]


                  How much and where did Korolev and Tupolev serve under the socialist system?

                  Let's get to work.
                  This is what Korolev said about Stalin
                  https://vk.com/wall-27569095_1862354?ysclid=m5awtia5zm384077965

                  The fact that they survived and worked is simply fantastic and a coincidence. S. P. Korolev was a goner in the camp, the fact that he survived is a great miracle.

                  Leave your liberal fantasies for schoolchildren.


                  All microelectronics of the socialist system are KT315 transistors and K155 series microcircuits.

                  These words mean that you are a complete layman in electronics. I will not even write facts and links, for telling lies in such a brazen, categorical form, without having any knowledge in this area.
                  1. 0
                    31 December 2024 20: 16
                    In the mid-1980s, the USSR accounted for a quarter of all scientific workers in the world. According to WIPO data, the USSR was more than twice as likely to produce inventions as the United States and almost twice as likely to produce
                    What's the point of this? Where are the results of all this? Everything from simple to the most complex devices is foreign or based on foreign architectures and protocols. Once again. Where are the results of the work of these parasites? Even encryption is almost universally based on foreign developments.

                    These words mean that you are a complete layman in electronics. I will not even write facts and links, for telling lies in such a brazen, categorical form, without having any knowledge in this area.

                    Nothing to say about the facts?
                    1. 0
                      1 January 2025 16: 26
                      In connection with what I said to you (see the next post), I think there is nothing to talk about with you.
                      The conversation is over
        2. 0
          25 December 2024 15: 30
          Until recently I thought so too. And now I'm not comparing the industries in their slavish planned and democratic periods... Is the quality higher? Yes, the wrappers are prettier. Is the consumption higher? Overproduction is no sweeter than deficit. 100 types of bad sausages will not replace one, but real one.
  12. -1
    24 December 2024 21: 25
    we need to clearly understand that trying to catch up is stupid and pointless, at one time, when the atomic bomb was being developed, they understood this and didn’t start to whine and reflect, what was needed was STOLE, and then they started to do their own thing
    no less importantly, it is necessary to clearly understand that the private sector WILL NOT develop anything, the state needs it, and therefore the state should do it
    1. 0
      26 December 2024 10: 16
      what SPOOLLY needed

      Everything that was needed was simply impossible to steal, here's a small example.
      For the first atomic bomb, uranium isotopes were separated by diffusion, no matter what, the main thing is that terribly chemically active uranium hexafluoride was used. The USSR did not have corrosion-resistant alloys, no gasket materials, no time to create them. Therefore, the first separation unit was made of gold. Later, appropriate materials were selected and centrifugation began to be used.
  13. 0
    26 December 2024 14: 24
    By the end of 2024, budget investments in the Russian electronics industry should exceed the 2020 figure by 15 times.
    From 2020 to 2024, 430,4 billion rubles were invested in the industry.
    China has invested more in the electronics industry than the United States, Taiwan and South Korea combined.
    1. +1
      30 December 2024 17: 47
      430 billion rubles is far from comparable to 4 billion dollars. A ridiculous figure.
  14. 0
    26 December 2024 16: 43
    I think there are much more chances to buy equipment in China for triple the price, in 5 years, than to create your own without human resources. Much more needs to be invested in chip design in order to actually get the most energy-efficient and productive processors. For autonomous killer/interceptor drones, their requirements are very high, because they need to calculate hundreds of video frames per second
  15. +1
    27 December 2024 09: 46
    For some reason, the authorities only repeat: "lack of money, lack of investment"? And recalling old experience - is it weak? How did Peter I build the Baltic Fleet? By decree of the Tsar, large nobles/merchants united into "companies" and built ships at their own expense (I think there is no need to write what awaited the disobedient in case of failure to comply with the decree). Are there really no oligarchs in the Russian Federation? Rather, there is no power capable of forcing, if necessary.
  16. 0
    30 December 2024 17: 45
    Problems of "overheated" economics. 300 billion dollars in investments... Not a single economist suffered. And I would name five electronics factories that croaked.
  17. 0
    6 January 2025 16: 59
    They created a processor in Russia with outstanding characteristics that surpass all Western ones by hundreds of times. The Americans bought it and began to disassemble it. They opened it up, the Professor looks at the insides through a microscope and faints. Everyone got scared, they bring the professor to his senses, he comes to and says - it's on lamps.
  18. 0
    10 January 2025 23: 22
    In general, it is quite funny to read the opinions of people who are ready to discuss a topic they understand nothing about. Electronics is a huge industry, for which the whole world works. Lithographic machines are made in Holland, chemistry is made in Japan, production is done in Taiwan, and system engineers and programmers work in the USA. There is no country that can do everything. Maybe China will succeed someday. But for now, it buys the most advanced MCs. We have nothing. The article says that we can do 28 nm? That is a lie! We can only make the Troika card and that is very good. Therefore, my answer is never. The whole country simply does not have enough resources. To understand the problem, I will only say that MC production begins with growing a large-diameter silicon crystal. Even in the Soviet Union, we had big problems with this. The yield of suitable ones after slicing was 2-3%.