Shells and Armor of the Russo-Japanese War. Lessons and Conclusions

273
Shells and Armor of the Russo-Japanese War. Lessons and Conclusions

Well, the year 2024 is coming to an end. And with it, the cycle dedicated to the projectile and armor of the Russo-Japanese War era is coming to an end. All the calculations, tables of armor penetration and range of Japanese ships have already been presented by me in previous materials. In this article, I will share with the esteemed readers the conclusions that I personally made. Everything that I will say below is not the ultimate truth. It was not in vain that I scrupulously wrote out all the assumptions that I made in certain calculations, so that everyone can decide for themselves where I was right and where I was wrong, and draw conclusions different from mine.

But let's get down to business!

On the evolution of projectiles and armor in the Russian Empire


Russian Imperial fleet made significant efforts to ensure that his warships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries received the most advanced armor and means of destroying it – high-quality armor-piercing shells.

The Russian Empire, not being a leader in technical progress, acquired (and sometimes obtained by other means, indicated by the combination of the words "industrial" and "espionage", but mostly acquired) the latest and most advanced developments, mastered their production at domestic factories and, having gained the necessary experience, developed the obtained technologies independently. The Naval Ministry responded promptly to the appearance of Harvey's armor and reproduced its production in Russia. Later, "Harveyization" technologies were improved abroad, which is why this armor became much more durable (the so-called "double forging"). In Russia, it was apparently not made. However, this shortcoming was compensated by the rapid development of the production of even higher quality protection: we are talking, of course, about Krupp armor.

As a result, despite the fact that the Japanese fleet used the services of recognized leaders in naval affairs, of the six 1st class battleships with which they entered the war, only one, the Mikasa, was protected by Krupp armor (although it cannot be ruled out that the Asahi was at least partially protected by it). At the same time, of the seven Russian squadron battleships of the Port Arthur squadron, four ships were protected by Krupp armor: the Retvizan, Tsesarevich, Pobeda, and Poltava.

This result was achieved thanks to the energy of our naval leadership: it not only demanded that foreign suppliers use the best armor, which was Krupp's at that time, but also achieved, regardless of costs, the development of the production of this armor under license at domestic industrial facilities. It should be noted that the qualitative improvement of Russian armor occurred against the background of a sharp increase in its production volumes.

In Russia, they also approached the creation of high-quality shells capable of penetrating the thickest armor with all possible responsibility. They did not skimp on armor-piercing shells, making them from high-quality steel, and the testing methods for accepting shells into the treasury were constantly being improved. They tried to improve the armor-piercing properties of shells by using "Makarov caps", with which they conducted many tests.

In addition to the armor-piercing qualities of the shells, the Russian Imperial Navy made considerable efforts to equip them with a suitable explosive. Pyroxylin cannot be called an ideal "filler" for an armor-piercing shell, it had its drawbacks, but, without a doubt, among the explosives known at that time, it was a good, and perhaps even the best choice. A fuse (Brink's tube) suitable for this type of ammunition was also created, ensuring the detonation of the shell behind the penetrated armor and fully meeting the purpose of the armor-piercing shell.

It is impossible to deny the great progress of the Russian Empire in improving armor and projectiles in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But it is also impossible not to note the most serious mistakes made by our naval ministry.

Penetration tests were conducted regularly, but there was no money to test the destructive power of the new steel shells. But it is not enough to penetrate the armor; you also need to damage the enemy ship behind it. And the decision to equip 12-inch armor-piercing shells with smokeless powder and tubes of the 1894 model seems completely inexplicable, as a result of which they completely lost their armor-piercing status, turning into very weak semi-armor-piercing ammunition.

Conditions for the success of armor-piercing shells of the Russian Imperial Navy


Theoretically, Russian large-caliber armor-piercing shells (10-12 inch) could well have become weapons victories in the naval battles of the Russo-Japanese War. They were capable of inflicting decisive damage on the Japanese armored ships of the 1st and 2nd combat detachments. But only if two conditions were met:

1. Equipping not only 10-inch, but also 12-inch armor-piercing shells with pyroxylin and Brink tubes;

2. Formation of Russian squadrons of battleships, at a minimum not inferior, but preferably superior in speed to the ships of the main forces of the United Fleet.

The first condition was not met, Russian 12-inch shells received gunpowder filling and tubes of the 1894 model. That is, fuses suitable for high-explosive, or at best, semi-armor-piercing shells. At the same time, it can be safely stated that there were no insurmountable obstacles to equipping 12-inch shells with pyroxylin and Brink tubes - single ammunition of this caliber was equipped with pyroxylin and used in tests at least since 1904, and most likely - much earlier. It can be assumed that the rejection of pyroxylin equipping of the main weapons of the fleet was caused either by saving on the cost of shells, or by saving on technological equipment that allows for the production of pyroxylin equipment for them on an industrial scale.


It can be argued that the Russian Imperial Navy could have received 12-inch shells with a Brink tube before the Russo-Japanese War in sufficient quantities - this was entirely within the capabilities of our Naval Ministry. But the second condition could not have been fulfilled by the efforts of the Naval Ministry in any way and completely.

Both the 1st and 2nd Pacific Squadrons were a "hodgepodge" of modern battleships designed for a speed of 17,8-18,6 knots, and relatively old ships whose maximum speed during acceptance trials was 16-17 knots. No amount of trickery or shuffling of the budgets allocated to the Naval Ministry could have assembled an "18-knot" squadron in the Far East by the start of the Russo-Japanese War that would have been able to give a general battle to 6 first-class battleships and 6 armored cruisers of the Combined Fleet with a chance of success. And it was just as impossible to provide the 2nd Pacific Squadron, which was going to the rescue of Port Arthur, with such ships.

But even if we assume that the Russian Empire managed to achieve some alternative-historical miracle, so that by the beginning of the war in Port Arthur there would have been Peresvet, Oslyabya, Pobeda, Retvizan, Tsarevich and an additional three or even four ships of the Borodino type, this still would not have given us a squadron equal in speed to the Japanese. The latter, planning the war, carried out the necessary repairs on the battleships and armored cruisers of the main forces in order to fight "at the peak of their form." Our ships, having just completed the passage across half the world, and based in Port Arthur and Vladivostok, which were frankly weak in terms of ship repair capacity, would hardly have been in a technical condition that would have allowed them to equal the Combined Fleet in squadron speed.

In other words, in order to achieve not even superiority, but at least approximate equality in squadron speed with the Japanese squadron, the Russian Imperial Navy had to receive completely different and much greater funding than it actually had. It was necessary not only to ensure the presence of a powerful squadron of high-speed battleships in the Far East, but also to bring the ship repair capacities of Port Arthur and Vladivostok to a qualitatively different level in comparison with what Russia had in 1904-1905.

I can only state that in the realities of the Russian Empire of the late 15th – early XNUMXth century, such a thing was absolutely impossible. Accordingly, our lag in speed was predetermined. Only the Japanese could compensate for it, if they themselves were striving to conduct a decisive battle at a distance of XNUMX cables or less. But they were not striving for this at all.

This means that our armor-piercing shells, regardless of whether they were filled with pyroxylin or not, could not decide the outcome of the Russo-Japanese confrontation at sea.

Of course, there were cases when Russian and Japanese ships converged or could have converged at a distance of 20 cables or less. But such approaches were short-lived. As has been said many times before, in order to use armor-piercing shells, it was necessary not only to approach the Japanese ships, but to hold them in the desired position for a long time, measured in tens of minutes. This is due to the fact that even at 15 cables it was practically impossible to accurately inflict decisive damage on the enemy. To do this, it was necessary to point the guns at the citadel, barbette or turret and fire until the theory of probability gave the "go-ahead" to hit the desired part of the enemy ship.

If not armor-piercing, then what?


Could the Russian Imperial Navy have achieved victory without having an advantage in squadron speed over the Japanese? The answer is yes, it could have. But this required not high-quality armor-piercing shells, but:

1. No savings on high-explosive shells. If the Russian Empire had found the funds for high-quality steel for them, the fleet could have received very powerful high-explosive shells of all calibers, generally similar to the shells of the 1907 model. For example, the creation of a 12-inch shell containing 20-22 kg of wet pyroxylin and equipped with a sensitive fuse was quite within the capabilities of the Russian industry. But its price would have been close to that of an armor-piercing shell.

2. Conducting tests of high-explosive shells of the “correct type” on ship structures, which would demonstrate the high destructive properties of such ammunition.

3. Understanding the importance of being able to hit an enemy at a distance of 30 kbt or more, and taking measures that follow from this understanding:
- Providing the fleet with foreign optical sights (until they learn to produce their own) and rangefinders;
- Transition to systematic training of artillerymen in shooting at a distance of 30 cables and beyond no later than 1902.

And it would also be absolutely wonderful to equip our high-explosive shells with armor-piercing tips, which would bring them even closer to the shells of the 1907 model.


In such a development, the Russian Imperial Navy would have received the materiel and certain skills in long-range shooting, as well as high-explosive shells, which would have definitely surpassed the Japanese in terms of their comprehensive effect on the enemy. With the possible exception of observability - the explosion of pyroxylin is barely noticeable, but such shells would have retained the ability to penetrate armor half their caliber thick. And even if our gunners could not demonstrate the same accuracy as their Japanese "colleagues", the power of large-caliber high-explosive shells could well tip the scales in our favor.

Could the Naval Ministry of the Russian Empire have followed this path? Alas, no. It simply did not have the funds for this. In conditions when 22,6 million rubles were required to equip the fleet ships with a second set of shells (letter signed by Vice-Admiral Avelan dated July 19, 1900, addressed to the Minister of Finance S. Yu. Witte), and only 1,3 million rubles were allocated in 1900 and 1,8 million rubles in 1903, there was not the slightest possibility of achieving mass equipping of the fleet with high-quality high-explosive shells, optical sights, intensifying the training of gunners, etc., etc.

Conclusions


Without in any way claiming to have the ultimate truth, I will risk putting forward the following theses:

1. Inflicting decisive damage on the enemy with armor-piercing shells during the Russo-Japanese War was only possible during a long fire battle at a distance of about 15 cables or less.

2. The Russian Imperial Navy had no reason to believe that the battles of the Russo-Japanese War would take place at a distance of more than 20 cables and relied on armor-piercing shells, financing the supply of high-explosive shells on a residual basis due to forced savings.

3. The Japanese reliance on combat at distances of 30 cables and more was not predictable, as it was made on the basis of completely erroneous premises. In the end, the Japanese were successful, but it was not achieved in the way they expected.

4. During the Russo-Japanese War, the Russian Imperial Navy did not have the opportunity to use armor-piercing shells, since it could not form a squadron that would simultaneously have sufficient strength to defeat the main forces of the Japanese fleet and a speed not inferior to the 1st combat detachment of H. Togo.

5. The superiority of the Japanese in squadron speed along with the increase in distance artillery The battle put the Russian Imperial Fleet in a clearly losing position, since under these conditions its main weapon could not be used.

6. Before the Russo-Japanese War, the lower squadron speed of our units could not be perceived as a decisive disadvantage that would devalue armor-piercing shells. It was logical to assume that, despite their superior speed, the Japanese would seek to get closer to our battleships to use their armor-piercing shells, and therefore would fall within the range of our ammunition of the same purpose.

7. Equipping 12-inch armor-piercing shells with smokeless powder and tubes of the 1894 model instead of Brink tubes and pyroxylin did not play a significant role. Russian ships could not effectively use armor-piercing shells, regardless of the type of explosive and fuses used.

8. The main weapon of our fleet in the Russo-Japanese War was high-explosive shells, which before the war were considered auxiliary and which turned out to be of significantly worse quality than they could have been. The reason for this was economy.

9. Despite its lower squadron speed, the Russian Imperial Navy could still have achieved victory, but this required equipment (optical sights, high-quality high-explosive shells, etc.), which it did not have – again, as a result of savings.

As we know, victory has many fathers, but defeat is always an orphan. Of course, the loss of the war at sea in 1904-1905 occurred for many reasons, and not all of them were limited to the material part.

But, due to the above-mentioned reasons, in my opinion, the Russian Imperial Fleet was indeed significantly inferior to the Japanese Combined Fleet in its material part, and the “shell” issue became one of the key reasons for our defeat at sea in 1904-1905. Moreover, I estimate the influence of the “shell issue” coupled with the insufficient speed of our squadrons so highly that, again, in my opinion, it was impossible to compensate for it no matter how good the command of the 1st or 2nd Pacific Squadrons.

Lessons of the Russo-Japanese War



The defeat in the naval war of 1904-1905 taught the leadership of the Russian Empire many lessons. But I will risk highlighting two of them, which I consider the most important.

Lesson 1: It is unacceptable to economize on the main weapons of the fleet. The rejection of expensive high-explosive shells, the delay in equipping warships with optical sights, and the savings on exercises might have seemed acceptable for a fleet preparing to fight at distances of 15 cables or less. But the armed forces in general and the fleet in particular must be prepared for any scenario, including one in which the pre-war stratagems turn out to be false. They turned out to be false, but the fleet was completely unprepared for such a development.

Even leaving aside questions of strategy, one cannot skimp on the chances of inflicting damage on the enemy. If there is a possibility of inflicting losses on the enemy at a long distance, one had to learn to shoot at long distances, even if this did not give a chance to inflict decisive damage. Of course, one had to have the appropriate equipment to be able to hit the enemy at long distances as effectively as possible.

Lesson 2: When preparing armed forces for war, achievable goals should be set. After the unsuccessful Russo-Japanese War, a lot of criticism was directed at the Naval Ministry. This is, of course, correct, since the General-Admiral and the department he headed really did make many mistakes in the process of preparing for the war.

But the whole point is that it was impossible to expect a fundamentally different result with the funds allocated for the construction and maintenance of the Russian Imperial Fleet. While our fleet was relatively small, the budget of the Naval Ministry could still ensure its functioning according to the Makarov principle "at sea - means at home!" However, the tasks assigned to the fleet put the leadership of the Naval Ministry before dilemmas that it could not resolve in principle within the budgets allocated to it.

Politics required a fleet equal to the Japanese in the Far East, but such a requirement could only be met with a sharp, explosive increase in the number of squadron battleships, armored cruisers, and all other classes of warships. Even for this, the Russian Empire did not have enough money: despite the absolutely sensible and prophetic demand of the admirals to assemble a fleet of the required size, in 1903, at the insistence of the Minister of Finance, shipbuilding programs were extended until 1905.

The lack of budgets meant that shipbuilding programs were not up to the challenge of the threat that needed to be countered. But even so, there were still not enough funds to prepare the fleets that were being created. What kind of intensification of combat training could we talk about if we had to resort to such a blatant measure as putting warships into reserve? When ships of the active fleet were laid up for several months to save money?

How can one demand that the Naval Ministry be concerned with high-quality and expensive high-explosive shells when it could not beg for money for a second set of ammunition?

In my opinion, the fundamental problem of the Russian Imperial Navy was that the budget of the Navy Ministry, no matter how you look at it, remained "Trishka's coat". As of 1895, to prepare for war, it was necessary to:

1. To sharply increase the size of the fleet.

2. Create and obtain the highest quality equipment – ​​shells, sights, etc.



3. Intensify crew training.

But the money allocated for this was obviously too little! They tried to build more ships, putting up with savings on shells and exercises, but still got insufficient. Considering that Peresvet and Pobeda should have been considered more as armored cruisers than squadron battleships, the Pacific Ocean Squadron at the beginning of the war was inferior to the Japanese fleet in all classes of warships. Well, if they had concentrated on shells and exercises, they would have had to reduce the already insufficient number of battleships, cruisers, destroyers concentrated in Vladivostok and Port Arthur...


In view of the above, it may seem that the root cause of the loss of the Russo-Japanese War at sea should be sought not in the Navy Ministry, but in the Finance Ministry. But even such a judgment, in my opinion, would be only partially fair. Whatever one may say, S. Yu. Witte did not seek to cut the demands of the fleet because life was good: the budget of the Russian Empire, in essence, was the same "Trishka's coat" as the budget of the Navy Ministry, and it was simply not enough for all the needs of the Empire... We are talking about the shortages of the fleet, but the ground forces did not receive the required funding either.

Therefore, the true and key reason for the loss of the Russo-Japanese War at sea, in my humble opinion, should be considered the discrepancy between the economy of the Russian Empire and the political tasks that it set for itself.

End.

PS


In view of the above, Dmitry Peskov’s statement that the current leadership of the Russian Federation is striving to ensure that “the country was more reminiscent, I would say, from the point of view of historical analogies, of Russia at the end of the 19th century" seems, to my unenlightened opinion, a little ambiguous.

"This is one of the most wonderful times, with all sorts of big social cataclysms, difficulties and everything else, but this is a time when, as they say, serfdom has already been abolished, when we have a golden age of literature, when the economy is growing rapidly, when the ruble is strong, when we are competitive in the world, when we have strong science, when there is something to be proud of. This is a truly good image" (D. Peskov).

I can only assume that the continuity of views of those in power has already been observed: it is quite possible that the autocrat of all Rus', Nicholas II, when getting involved in a “small and victorious” war in the Far East, was thinking something like this about the Russian Empire…

P.P.S


In conclusion of my series, I would like to present to the esteemed reader a brief summary of the previous materials in terms of the strength of different types of armor, the capabilities of armor-piercing tips of those years, and the ranges of destruction of Japanese ships by domestic armor-piercing shells. I have recalculated the latter a little again, and here is the point.

Professor L. G. Goncharov in his work “Course of Naval Tactics. Artillery and Armor” recommends using the classic de Marr formula for calculating the resistance of cemented armor with a thickness of over 75 mm:


And for non-cemented armor less than 75 mm thick, he proposes a different formula:


At the same time, the durability of non-cemented armor less than 75 mm is assessed by him as extremely low, its “K” is only 1100. It was according to this formula that I calculated the durability of the slopes and ends of Japanese ships, including when their thickness exceeded 75 mm.

But, after thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that if in the case of the bevels (and they, although they had a thickness of 50,8-114 mm, were made of several sheets of steel with the addition of a maximum of one sheet of armor) the use of this formula is justified, then I “humiliated” the ends completely in vain - after all, the steel-nickel armor of those years could have “K” = 1500. Therefore, I recalculated the resistance of the ends according to the classic de Marr formula with “K” = 1500. Of course, for shells with a caliber of 10-12 dm nothing has changed, they penetrated such armor at any distance, but smaller calibers - no longer.

Vulnerability Ranges of Japanese Armored Ship Defenses


"Mikasa" (Krupp armor, "K" = 2275):




"Asahi", "Shikishima", "Hatsuse" (armor "improved Harvey", "K" = 2100):




"Fuji", "Yashima" (presumably "improved Harvey" armor, "K" = 2100):




"Yakumo" (presumably Krupp "K" armor = 2275):




"Izumo", "Azuma", "Asama", "Tokiwa" (armor "improved Harvey", "K" = 2100):




"Nissin", "Kasuga" (Terni armor, presumably - corresponded to "improved Harvey", "K" = 2100):




Strength of armor of various types according to domestic data



The strength of Harvey and Krupp armor



Reduction in the armor penetration rate provided by the Makarov caps


For 120 mm shells and 127 mm armor - up to 27% for Krupp armor produced by the Izhora plant;

For 120 mm shells and 171,45 mm armor - up to 12,7% for Krupp armor produced by the Izhora plant;

For high-quality 152-mm shells and 171,45-254-mm armor - approximately 17% for Krupp armor produced by the Obukhov plant;

For 254 mm shells and 171,45-254 mm armor - approximately 17% for Krupp armor produced by the Obukhov plant;

For 203 mm shells and 305 mm armor – not less than 7,3% for Krupp armor produced by the Obukhov plant;

For 254 mm shells and 305 mm armor - about 9% for Krupp armor produced by the Obukhov plant;

For 305 mm shells and 305 mm armor – 9-12% for Krupp armor produced by the Obukhov plant.

Calculation tables of armor penetration for guns of Russian ships that participated in the Russo-Japanese War:


Thank you for attention!
273 comments
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  1. +2
    30 December 2024 04: 32
    Later, “garveyization” technologies were improved abroad, which made this armor much stronger (the so-called “double forging”).

    In fact, the improvement consisted of using nickel steel (HNS, Harvey nickel) - this was the "second Harvey", and the "third" was the double forging of GN.
    1. +2
      30 December 2024 04: 35
      Only one "Mikasa" was protected by Krupp armor (although it cannot be ruled out that "Asahi" was at least partially protected by it)

      Only in terms of chemical composition, cementation using the Harvey method is an economical option.
      1. +2
        30 December 2024 04: 39
        Four ships were protected with Krupp armor: ...... and Sevastopol.

        Which is "Poltava".
        1. +6
          30 December 2024 04: 44
          No amount of trickery or reshuffling of the budgets allocated to the Naval Ministry could have been used to assemble an “18-knot” squadron of sufficient size in the Far East by the start of the Russo-Japanese War.

          It was entirely possible to replace the Varyag and Bayan with two EBRs, transferring money from other ships that had not yet been built. And then six 18-knot ships versus six.
          1. 0
            30 December 2024 04: 46
            Our ships, having just completed a voyage across half the world and based in Port Arthur and Vladivostok, which are frankly weak in terms of ship repair capacity, would hardly be in a technical condition that would allow them to match the United Fleet in squadron speed.

            On the contrary, the machines would be running in.
            1. +2
              30 December 2024 04: 49
              This means that our armor-piercing shells, regardless of whether they were filled with pyroxylin or not, could not decide the outcome of the Russo-Japanese confrontation at sea.

              They could have done it - sometimes the distances were sufficient for the BBS to operate. True, they had to hit the enemy.
              1. +3
                30 December 2024 04: 52
                For example, the Russian industry was quite capable of creating a 12-inch projectile containing 20-22 kg of wet pyroxylin and equipped with a sensitive fuse. But its price would be close to that of an armor-piercing projectile.

                Only a hundred rubles more expensive than a real common. And BBC is 400 rubles more expensive.
                1. -1
                  30 December 2024 04: 54
                  And it would also be absolutely wonderful to equip our high-explosive shells with armor-piercing tips, which would bring them even closer to the shells of the 1907 model.

                  Absolutely unnecessary and even harmful.
                  1. +1
                    30 December 2024 04: 58
                    And even if our gunners were not able to demonstrate the same accuracy as their Japanese “colleagues”

                    Why? The Russians had a better centralized SUAO model 1899, all that was left was to learn how to shoot with it.
                    1. +2
                      30 December 2024 05: 03
                      1. Inflicting decisive damage on the enemy with armor-piercing shells during the Russo-Japanese War was only possible during a long fire battle at a distance of about 15 cables or less.

                      In fact, it’s 22 cables and not very long, if you know how to shoot.
                      1. +3
                        30 December 2024 05: 06
                        5. The superiority of the Japanese in squadron speed, together with the increase in the range of artillery combat, put the Russian Imperial Fleet in a clearly losing position, since under these conditions its main weapon could not be used.

                        Russian commons (FS) were pretty good, for distances of 25kbt and more, again, - hits are needed, and not throwing ammo into the sea.
                      2. +5
                        30 December 2024 05: 08
                        Russian ships could not effectively use armor-piercing shells, regardless of the type of explosive and fuses used.

                        That's true if you can't hit the enemy and depleted uranium won't help.
                      3. +5
                        30 December 2024 05: 13
                        Moreover, I estimate the influence of the “shell issue” coupled with the insufficient speed of our squadrons so highly that, again, in my opinion, it was impossible to compensate for it no matter how good the command of the 1st or 2nd Pacific squadrons.

                        With a command like the Russians, nothing will help except protecting the queen of heaven. Who prevented the ZPR from going more than 11 knots and maneuvering when the enemy had zeroed in? Only blatant incompetence.
                      4. +3
                        30 December 2024 05: 17
                        The Russian Empire did not have enough money: despite the absolutely sensible and prophetic demand of the admirals to assemble a fleet of the required size, in 1903, at the insistence of the Minister of Finance, the shipbuilding programs were extended until 1905.

                        The war was lost in 1897. It was still possible to correct the situation in 1898, but cruisers and yachts with floating workshops were built when there were not enough ships in the line.
                      5. +3
                        30 December 2024 05: 21
                        Whatever one may say, S. Yu. Witte did not seek to cut the demands of the fleet because life was good: the budget of the Russian Empire, in essence, was the same “Trishka’s coat” as the budget of the Naval Ministry, and it was simply not enough to cover all the needs of the Empire...

                        There wasn't enough brains in the head, an extra 25 million on time, for a couple of EBRs, could have led to a billion or two not being wasted, in the event of a war.
                      6. +1
                        30 December 2024 05: 27
                        "Izumo", "Azuma", "Asama", "Tokiwa" (armor "improved Harvey", "K" = 2100):

                        "Izumo", - KHS, almost KC.
                      7. +9
                        30 December 2024 06: 54
                        Here it would be necessary to add that if there is not enough money and time, then maybe don't show off in Korea? And behave quietly and don't anger the Japanese. Take care of the economy. Because the peasant question, for example, was only taken up by the Pereporovs, having shot and hanged thousands of people. In general, if I were Peskov, I would have kept quiet about such an example.
                      8. +6
                        30 December 2024 15: 47
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        In general, if I were Peskov, I would keep quiet about such an example.

                        Yes, he means that the gentlemen lived well then - the "Golden Age". And that's what they were striving for - they arranged for themselves a "Golden Age" in the 21st century, having forgotten about Defense, Science, their own Industry, having built their enrichment on the export of resources and spending it on luxury, entertainment, Olympics and Spartakiads... Show-off, tank biathlons, and a funny, but thieving general.
                        And they came to exactly the same thing that Nikolka then came to like dyR@40k on a stick - starting the SVO as the Russo-Japanese War with a smooth transition into an analogue of WWI on the minimum. And demonstrating even to the most apathetic quadrobers their own worthlessness and qualifications in state management at the baseboard level.
                        As for the message about Witte, that supposedly "there was no money", "there wasn't enough for everything", I will answer with the words of his contemporary and opponent - the words of the Russian genius Sharapov. Who, if the father of this good-for-nothing Niki-2 (Alexander-3) were alive then, would have definitely taken the place of this swindler Witte as the Minister of Finance. Because thanks to his program and the personnel attracted, the Russian Empire built the Trans-Siberian Railway in just 8 years, without getting into debt, without straining the budget and, what's more, expanding the taxable base of the empire, increasing the export of industrial goods and saturating the economy of the Russian Empire with liquidity. So the economic takeoff of the Russian Empire of that period is precisely Sharapov's merit. But Alexander-3 managed to approve Sharapov's program only in relation to the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway. If he had lived, this program would certainly have been expanded to include a program for building ships for the Pacific Fleet and building its bases, docks, repair and shipbuilding facilities. And this would have led to an even greater takeoff of the economy as a whole, and naval power and the shipbuilding industry in particular.
                        Witte, after all, only in the pre-war period saved and cut programs for shipbuilding, equipping bases, producing high-quality shells and training in practical shooting of gunners. And as soon as the war began, in just over a year he grabbed loans from his relatives for the Russian Empire for as much as (drum roll!!) 11 billion GOLD rubles. And this is exactly what Sharapov blamed him for. After all, a tenth of this amount was enough for high-quality preparation for war. And to build a first-class fleet (including at foreign shipyards for speed and meeting the deadline), and to equip, equip and strengthen the naval bases of Port Arthur and Vladivostok to the first class, and to provide them FULLY with coastal artillery, and to build docks for ship repairs (!!), and to strengthen the Dalny commercial port, making it a second base for the fleet, and in many ways more convenient. And also for the preparation and transfer there (by sea !!) of sufficient ground forces. Not at once, but gradually, planned, during the entire preparatory period. There was time and money for all this. And they did not even need to be taken away from something else, as in Trishkin's caftan. It had to be done exactly as they did for the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway - INVESTMENT EMISSION of paper rubles (before that, metal money was in circulation). Specifically for the construction of ships and the development of the shipbuilding industry. And from there, through cooperative chains and wages, this money would flow into the general imperial economy, reviving and stimulating it even better and more efficiently than happened with the Trans-Siberian Railway. Because the Trans-Siberian Railway was built mainly by Chinese workers, who bought industrial goods with the money they earned and sent them in parcels to China. Even so, all the money in the Empire remained, and in the case of using this method for the development of military shipbuilding and equipment of the Fleet and Army in Manchuria... If the position of Minister of Finance had been occupied not by the swindler Witte, but by Sharapov (whom Alexander III knew and valued), the Russian Empire would have met the beginning of the Russian Empire in a completely different form, with a different Fleet in the Pacific Ocean, with a different Army in Manchuria and a different economy by that time.
                        This is from the works of that (post-RYaV) period of Sharapov, whom Witte persecuted in every possible way for criticism and sound proposals... But the fool Niki-2 did not need all this, it was uninteresting, incomprehensible, boring... what can you do if a major quadrober climbed onto the throne...
                        And now we have "Like under Nikola-2" built... and on the same rails they are rolling downhill... It is not right. It is not right. But only Stalin did the right thing.
                      9. +2
                        30 December 2024 16: 02
                        G. Peskov just gave it away yesterday and today. How wonderful everything was. No doubt, in some things there was something and could be wonderful. But in other respects, somehow not so much.
                        I don't even want to look for a quote. Especially since we already have a decent history. You can find any examples you want.
                      10. +4
                        30 December 2024 16: 42
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        G. Peskov just gave it away yesterday and today. How wonderful everything was. No doubt, there was something in some things and it could have been wonderful.

                        Yes, he constantly repeats this. Their goal is for the nobility to live to their heart's content and NOTHING to happen to them for it. Well, I'm already quoting from a toast from the Soviet era.
                      11. +1
                        31 December 2024 14: 01
                        Peskov knows nothing about the Russo-Japanese War...
                        It's a pity...
            2. +9
              30 December 2024 10: 58
              Yuri, with all due respect, I read your posts about armor, you apparently really understand this issue deeply. But for piston machines, one to two thousand miles is enough for running-in. 10-12 thousand - this already requires if not a complete, then a serious overhaul of the machines. Turbines were better in this regard.
          2. +1
            30 December 2024 06: 44
            Moreover, the speed of construction of the Borodino-type heavy cruisers depended less on funding and mainly on the organization of work at the shipyards, and with a certain (not strong) effort, in addition to Oslyabya, Alexander III could have been included in Virenius’s detachment, which, even if all the events accompanying his Mediterranean “walk” had been preserved, would have allowed at least one heavy cruiser to be transferred to Port Arthur in addition to Bayan at the beginning of military operations.
            1. 0
              30 December 2024 08: 48
              Moreover, the speed of construction of the Borodino-type heavy cruisers depended less on funding and mainly on the organization of work at the shipyards, and with a certain (not strong) effort, in addition to Oslyabya, Alexander III could have been included in Virenius’s detachment, which, even if all the events accompanying his Mediterranean “walk” had been preserved, would have allowed at least one heavy cruiser to be transferred to Port Arthur in addition to Bayan at the beginning of military operations.

              The course of events only allowed the Japanese to finally win the war faster. There would have been nothing to recruit a second squadron from otherwise.
              1. 0
                30 December 2024 11: 53
                No, it couldn't have been worse. Moreover, I am sure that the defeat at that historical moment was predetermined, even if we had only "Asams" in the first squadron and the Japanese only "Tsareviches" and "Retvizans". Alternative history is not a very respectable occupation for me (especially when they soar into the sky), but I believe that an extra (extra) EBR units could have increased the chances of a breakthrough to Vladivostok and the resulting not so shameful results of the overall defeat in the war.
                1. +2
                  30 December 2024 12: 05
                  The main defeat was inflicted on land, and the most offensive one was at sea. If, when developing the programs to counter Japan in 1895/98, steps had been taken to deploy a land group in advance at least 2/3 of what was needed, the Japanese would have thought very hard, since an attack on Port Arthur would have given them little.
              2. +1
                30 December 2024 21: 45
                After the defeat of the 1st Pacific, many said that sending the 2nd no longer makes sense. Therefore, it is possible to really have one, but strong squadron.
            2. 0
              30 December 2024 13: 30
              Quote: mark1
              Moreover, the speed of construction of the Borodino-class submarines depended less on funding and more on the organization of work at the shipyards.

              Not quite so. For example, the Baltic plant was well ahead of schedule, but at Rozhdestvensky's request, work on Borodintsy was slowed down so as not to exceed the annual budget.
              1. +3
                30 December 2024 18: 56
                Quote: Saxahorse
                For example, the Baltic plant was well ahead of schedule, but at Rozhdestvensky's request, work on Borodinets was slowed down.

                Please remind me where you got this from?
          3. 0
            30 December 2024 11: 37
            Shipbuilding programs are very relative and vague phenomena, more for intimidating the enemy than any real benefit. Since they are almost always delayed, or not carried out at all. The German shipbuilding program "Z" was planned until 1946))) it ended a little earlier.
  2. +1
    30 December 2024 04: 33
    Excellent. In general, thank you very much for your work on the RYA. I think no other domestic researcher has come close to you.
    1. +10
      30 December 2024 06: 35
      Quote: Denis Silaev
      In general, thank you very much for your work on the RYAV.

      Good morning and thank you for your kind words!
      Quote: Denis Silaev
      I think none of our domestic researchers have come close to you.

      It's hard to call me a researcher at all, since I have almost no opportunity to look for new sources, new information. I'm closer to journalism - I work with sources found by real researchers.
      1. +3
        30 December 2024 17: 38
        Andrey. I read it with pleasure. hi
        Thank you. Yes
        We look forward to your new works on the fleet.
  3. +2
    30 December 2024 05: 59
    I wonder if Marr's formula can be used to calculate the thickness of armor that can be penetrated by an armor-piercing AB, for example?
    1. +4
      30 December 2024 06: 35
      Quote: Tlauicol
      using Marr's formula, one can calculate the thickness of armor that can be penetrated by an armor-piercing projectile

      Of course. But you need to have actual shooting data on hand that would help determine the "K" in the formula
      1. +1
        30 December 2024 06: 57
        And what is the maximum? 2400?
        However, for ship armor it will be lower. 1900 is more than enough.
        Then why all this debate about Eugen, for example? After all, you can just count
        1. +3
          30 December 2024 07: 00
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Then why all this controversy about Eugen, for example?

          So K is unknown:) Probably:) What's the controversy?
          1. +1
            30 December 2024 07: 12
            Controversy around Kaptsov)). The case with Eugen and the bomb hit.
            Well, K can be the maximum for the Germans
            1. +2
              30 December 2024 10: 59
              Quote: Tlauicol
              The Eugen incident and the bomb hit

              What's there? I missed it. But in general, everything is not simple, here you need to know the speed on the plate, and the bomb itself is not quite a shell, so K is extremely mysterious
        2. 0
          30 December 2024 13: 29
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Then why all this controversy about Eugen, for example?

          What are they arguing about?
  4. +3
    30 December 2024 06: 50
    Thanks for the loop!
    And the conclusions too.
  5. +4
    30 December 2024 07: 27
    Andrey, thank you very much for the series of essays about the armor and shells of the battleships of the Russian-Japanese War!!!
    Health and creative success in the new year!!!
    With sincere respect, Vlad!
    1. +4
      30 December 2024 10: 58
      Happy New Year to you, dear Vladislav! Thank you for your kind words!
  6. +2
    30 December 2024 07: 37
    In view of the above, it may seem that the root cause of the loss of the Russo-Japanese War at sea should be sought not in the Naval Ministry, but in the Finance Ministry.


    And after 120 years, everything remained unchanged. Only the Central Bank was added to the Russian Federation.
    1. +6
      30 December 2024 10: 57
      Quote: avia12005
      Only in the Russian Federation the Central Bank has been added.

      That's for sure, you don't even need an external enemy here:))))
    2. -4
      30 December 2024 11: 38
      I would like to note that Russia is currently fighting alone against the collective West + hangers-on from the Asia-Pacific region. Therefore, it is at least incorrect to talk about lack of readiness. It is possible that not everything turned out as desired, but overall, it is working out.
      1. 0
        30 December 2024 18: 05
        Quote: TermNachTER
        I would like to note that Russia is now fighting alone against the collective West.
        But overall, it works out

        Russia is not in combat with NATO. The only thing that holds them back is the presence of nuclear weapons. But they are no longer afraid of them, because all the red lines have fallen.
        In Ukraine, 10 Khimars are causing a stir throughout the LBS. And what will happen when there are 50 of them? The Black Sea Fleet is locked in the base, drones are flying around all the cities.
        1. -2
          30 December 2024 18: 36
          There are slightly more than 10 Hymers, and the rustling is not all over the LBS. But the rustling is all over Banderland, including Transcarpathia. If the Black Sea Fleet is locked in the base, then where do the "Kalibrs" fly from? UAVs fly everywhere, in Tel Aviv for example.
      2. -1
        31 December 2024 14: 18
        And back then, was there no one behind Japan? These ships were not Japanese, the money was poured into Japan by our respected partners
        1. -1
          31 December 2024 15: 10
          They poured it in))) and what did they get in the end? A small bada - a boom in Pearl Harbor, well, and also, here and there, in small things)))
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 16: 40
            As a result, by 1945, the Americans had almost half of the world's GDP; by 1945, the Japanese were back in the fold.
            1. 0
              31 December 2024 16: 52
              GDP is a very relative figure. Yes, she came back, but before that she made her benefactors bleed quite a bit)
              1. -1
                31 December 2024 17: 03
                It often happens in capitalism that a watchdog bites its master. Germany also spoiled a lot of blood for the Anglo-Saxons, although they raised the Germans. As well as the Italians. But they spoiled much more blood for us
  7. +3
    30 December 2024 08: 05
    Good morning.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the series of articles, you have done a very large and laborious job. I hope that you will continue your publications in the future.
    Happy New Year !!!
    Sincerely. hi
    1. +4
      30 December 2024 10: 57
      Happy New Year, dear Igor! Thank you!
      Quote: 27091965i
      I hope that you will continue your publications in the future.

      The next cycle will be much simpler than this one and will not be dedicated to the Russo-Japanese War. Of course, I will return to it, but later. Or maybe it will all end in two parallel cycles at once :) I don't know yet
  8. +2
    30 December 2024 08: 17
    We are waiting for a new series of articles from the author - about torpedoes and about ships armed with them. How many destroyers did we have, and yet the torpedo did not become the weapon that turned the battles with the Japanese squadrons in our favor?
    1. -1
      30 December 2024 21: 48
      I support. It must be quite interesting, starting with the mine cruisers that were in Arthur, but for some reason were laid up, and ending with the cruisers of the 2nd rank.
  9. +2
    30 December 2024 08: 23
    Thank you very much, Andrey!
    A very useful cycle. As always, a wealth of hindsight allows us to determine the pattern of Russia's loss in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.
    But I disagree with two theses:
    Therefore, the true and key reason for the loss of the Russo-Japanese War at sea, in my humble opinion, should be considered the discrepancy between the economy of the Russian Empire and the political tasks that it set for itself.

    And what kind of economy was needed so that the available forces of the First Pacific Squadron would not sit and wait for the Japanese attack, but would start it themselves? The first, albeit not entirely prepared, blow could well overturn the "card table" of Europeanized policy, and put the enemy in the most Asian way before the collapse of his entire undertaking. Thus, the Chief of the General Staff, Adjutant General Viktor Sakharov, immediately warned about the possibility of an attack on the Russian fleet in the Port Arthur roadstead, as soon as it became known about the break with Japan. He proposed to immediately withdraw the Pacific Squadron from the port, which was more powerful than the Japanese fleet, and begin military operations in conditions favorable to it.
    But:
    In Port Arthur itself, only the viceroy, Adjutant General Yevgeny Alekseyev, and several of his confidants knew about the break in relations with the Japanese. No one in the military was warned. On February 8, late in the evening, a meeting was held on the battleship Petropavlovsk with the squadron commander, Oskar Stark. When it ended at 23 p.m., the chief of the naval staff, Rear Admiral Wilhelm Vitgeft, said goodbye to the ship commanders: "Gentlemen, there will be no war." Half an hour later, the war began.
    These are the moods of the command THERE WILL BE NO WAR!- and this is the main reason for all our failures, and not only in the Russo-Japanese War.
    And the second:
    But the whole point is that with the funds that were allocated for the construction and maintenance of the Russian Imperial Fleet, it was impossible to expect a fundamentally different result.

    Attention!
    But only if you prepare seriously. Neither the Japanese in 1904, nor the Germans in 1941 (and vice versa for the same Japanese on 07.12.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX) had any "decisive advantage", but they coped with the task of the first stage.
    This false belief that it is necessary to have overwhelming superiority in order to fight successfully, let us down later as well. And Z.P. Rozhestvensky is guilty twice, both as one of those who prepared the fleet for war, and as an incompetent commander.
    Happy you!
    1. +1
      30 December 2024 08: 35
      P.S. - The collage at the top of the article is awesome! Thank you very much!
      1. +4
        30 December 2024 10: 54
        Good morning, dear Victor!
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        And what kind of economy was needed so that the available forces of the First Pacific Squadron would not sit and wait for the Japanese attack, but would start it themselves?

        It was possible to start, but it was unlikely that you would win once you started.
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        The first, albeit not entirely prepared, blow could well overturn the "card table" of Europeanized politics, and put the enemy, in the most Asian way, before the collapse of his entire undertaking.

        Entering the war is the prerogative of the Tsar, not the decision of the admirals or the viceroy. An attempt to attack the Japanese at the base would have led to the same naval battle that we could not win with the available equipment.
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Neither the Japanese in 1904, nor the Germans in 1941 (and vice versa for the same Japanese on 07.12.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX) had any “decisive advantage”

        We had no way of beating the Japanese at their naval combat ranges and no speed to close in. If that's not a decisive advantage, what is?
        Happy New Year!
        1. -1
          30 December 2024 17: 07
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          It was possible to start, but it was unlikely that you would win once you started.

          I believe you are mistaken - the Japanese economy could not withstand the war! The problem is that the RIF relied on squadron battles at the initial stage (primarily during the SOM command), and not on the fight on communications. The RIF was supposed to make it difficult for the Japanese to deploy by acting on communications both to Korea and to Japan itself. There were forces for this! The same Virenius detachment!
          1. +1
            30 December 2024 19: 02
            Quote: DrEng02
            I think you are mistaken - Japan's economy could not withstand the war!

            She actually endured it.
            Quote: DrEng02
            The problem is that the RIF initially focused on squadron battles (primarily during the command of the SOM), rather than on the fight on communications.

            And rightly so.
            Quote: DrEng02
            The RIF was supposed to make it difficult for the Japanese to deploy by acting on communications both to Korea and to Japan itself. There were forces for this!

            There was no. The VOK could not be used for ocean communications, and to get between Japan and Korea... Well, the VOK got in, Rozhdestvensky tried to get through...
            1. 0
              31 December 2024 00: 28
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              She actually endured it.

              Only on loans...
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And rightly so.

              Mechem? bully Alas, war is logistics, the capacity of the Trans-Siberian Railway had to be measured for the Japanese...
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              There was no. The FOC could not be used for ocean communications.

              Lies,.. VOK sat on Privizi until SOM died, and this is the most important time! And remember about Virenius's squad - there are only raiders there! hi
              1. +1
                31 December 2024 07: 54
                Quote: DrEng02
                Doctors

                Well, don't be so offended by objective reality. Better study the only way out of the FOC to ocean communications.
                Quote: DrEng02
                And remember about Virenius' squad - there are only raiders there.

                Yes, as many as three auxiliary cruisers. Although, maybe the Donskoy
                1. 0
                  1 January 2025 01: 12
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Better study the only outlet of the FOC to ocean communications.

                  Long time ago... The problem is that they didn't take the coal miner request
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Yes, as many as three auxiliary cruisers.

                  And what about Oslyabya and Aurora, specially created for raiding?
                  1. +2
                    1 January 2025 01: 36
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    Long time ago... The problem is that they didn't take the coal miner

                    And now we smoothly move on to the question of the presence of coal in Vladivostok...
                    Quote: DrEng02
                    And what about Oslyabya and Aurora, specially created for raiding?

                    And what is the actual cruising range of these ships?:))))
                    1. 0
                      2 January 2025 12: 28
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      we smoothly move on to the question

                      It has long been described in a book about VOK
                      1. +2
                        2 January 2025 12: 47
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        It has long been described in a book about VOK

                        And if you read it, then why are you talking about coal miners?
                      2. 0
                        4 January 2025 22: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                        And if you read it, then why are you telling it?

                        It's funny, but why do you think that a coal miner (and not necessarily just one) must come from Vladik?
                        What amazes me most is that the RIF had been preparing for a cruiser war against England for many years, building special ships, but when it came to practice, alas.... One brave commander was found in India, and he got his hands on it.... The raider squadron in Djibouti, and it was recalled.... request
                        They sent the VOK on a raid, but didn’t think about supplies... stupidity or treason?
                        It's a pity that it's been 120 years since the war, but it continues request
                        Although you have destroyed one fable about bad shells, I hope you will also get to the EBR.... feel
                    2. 0
                      2 January 2025 12: 30
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      what is the actual cruising range of these ships?

                      we take the coalman bully , we look at the actions of the Emden cruiser feel
          2. +1
            30 December 2024 21: 50
            There were thoughts that Russia should have simply held out for another 3-4 months, without offensives or grand battles - just held the front line that had been formed at that time and Japan would have fallen apart on its own.
            1. -1
              31 December 2024 12: 27
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Russia simply had to hold out for another 3-4 months, without offensives or grand battles - just hold the front line that had formed at that time and Japan would have collapsed on its own.

              That's how we think now... just a little bit more and the enemy will fall apart on its own what
              1. 0
                31 December 2024 13: 29
                What's wrong? I can tell you that the people of the US and Europe don't give a damn about the Banderlands and their rulers. And the strengthening of the right-wing agenda in Europe is precisely why this is happening. And yes, the war of attrition shows that NATO can't handle it. They are used to fighting the Papuans, a big war is something completely different.
                1. 0
                  31 December 2024 14: 25
                  The people in the Jewish community will endure as long as they want, their patience has been twisted across the ocean. Since all the politicians in the Jewish community are 100% controlled from across the ocean. Today, the oppositionist is against Banderva and the IMF, and immediately after taking office, he runs to sign more sanctions against Russia and look for money to help Ukraine. There are no rallies, the Jewish community is still far from the turnip. But even the turnip could not immediately break the back of the Germans in 1916
                  1. +2
                    31 December 2024 15: 09
                    No patience is infinite, there is always a limit.
                    1. 0
                      31 December 2024 16: 42
                      There is still a long way to go to reach the limit. Where are all the yellow vests? They went home with the start of the SVO. The farmers also calmed down. And our economic authorities are doing everything possible to ensure that our limit comes sooner.
                      1. 0
                        31 December 2024 16: 55
                        They will come back together just as they did. Your limit will not come soon, because in the 90s, you were not "bursting with fat". But they have something to compare with, when they ate like crazy back then, and how they have to economize now.
                      2. -1
                        31 December 2024 17: 00
                        As long as the Jewish community has enough money for journalists and the police, they won't come together. The technologies are well-developed in Latin America or the same Ukraine on how to keep people in a stall. The leaders of real protests will be dealt with by CIA agents, and at the same time the bearded men will help the people to unite around all sorts of macaroni with their terrorist attacks.
                      3. 0
                        31 December 2024 19: 26
                        Many, until the last minute, were sure that the situation was under control. Then, they were very surprised if they survived.
                      4. 0
                        1 January 2025 01: 18
                        Somehow, in the post-war years, the Americans were quite in control of the situation in the Jewish world, although in the seventies many southern countries like Portugal were on the brink of civil war. In the USA and Canada, there were official execution lists, they still exist, there are people to carry them out. And the sharp historical turns and collapses for some reason fell to the lot of the CMEA, which was waiting for the enemies to fall apart and float face down the river. Helping them for the sake of immediate benefit with oil supplies, for example.
                      5. +1
                        1 January 2025 13: 47
                        No system lasts forever - everything breaks down. The EU is on the verge of collapse, strange things are happening in the US too. It is not worth elevating some particulars to the rank of absolute.
                      6. -1
                        1 January 2025 14: 59
                        The same things are happening in the US now that were happening in the Roman Republic at the beginning of the 1st century BC, a crisis and optimates against populares. And here we have - as Peskov said, the end of the 19th century, geniuses from the General Staff and a couple of their Wittes are bringing the revolutionary situation closer as best they can.
                      7. 0
                        1 January 2025 15: 14
                        The analogies are certainly curious and have a right to exist. However, I recommend reading the classics - Revolutionary situation. Vladimir Ilyich, not at all.
                      8. 0
                        2 January 2025 13: 41
                        Vladimir Ilyich is more than suitable
                      9. 0
                        2 January 2025 14: 21
                        Vladimir Ilyich wrote "in general" and in relation to capitalism. Your idea about the USA, the Optimates versus the Populares, is somewhat inconsistent, because both have opposite characteristics. Which of them do you consider to be the Populares?
                2. +1
                  31 December 2024 15: 13
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  And what is wrong?

                  The fact that this has been going on for almost three years now...
                  1. -1
                    31 December 2024 15: 16
                    Did you think that the game for a new world order was a game of preference?
                    1. +2
                      31 December 2024 15: 32
                      I just pointed out the obvious similarity. At first we wanted a small victorious war (Tokyo in three days), then it suddenly turned out that the whole world was helping the enemy, including our supposed allies, and so we had to endure it.
                      1. 0
                        31 December 2024 16: 06
                        There is a similarity, but a distant one. Russia now and Russia then are not the same thing.
        2. 0
          30 December 2024 17: 59
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          An attempt to attack the Japanese at the base would have resulted in the same naval battle that we could not win with the available equipment.

          At the beginning of the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area, the Japanese had problems with fuses, in the Yellow Sea there were many explosions in the barrels, there was no shimoza. The result of the battle in the Yellow Sea inspired Rozhdestvensky with the idea that it was possible to endure and break through.
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 12: 33
            And at the beginning of the war Shimoza was in place, but at first there was a wider use of less effective cast steel high-explosive shells, which by Tsushima were completely replaced by forged ones for 12".
            The use of semi-armor-piercing and especially gunpowder armor-piercing shells has almost completely disappeared...
            1. 0
              1 January 2025 13: 51
              Quote: 65-73
              increased use of less effective cast steel high explosive shells

              Please clarify in which battles did the Japanese fleet use 12-inch cast high-explosive shells?
              1. 0
                1 January 2025 20: 26
                Happy New Year!
                This is information from the work of S.A. Balakin: “By the beginning of the war with Russia, the Japanese fleet was armed with two types of 305-mm armor-piercing shells of its own production - steel forged No. 1 and cast No. 2. The latter, in the opinion of the attached British advisers, were of poor quality and often became the cause of various incidents. Nevertheless, they were included in the ammunition load of all battleships, and only they were used on the Fuji and Yashima. New shells that replaced them began to arrive only in the autumn of 1904. Traditionally, all armor-piercing shells were white, with the 305-mm No. 1 having one, and No. 2 - two red stripes; high-explosive shells of all calibers were painted brown with a yellow stripe. In 1904, the ammunition of Japanese battleships (per barrel) consisted of 90 305 mm shells (55 armor-piercing and 35 forged high-explosive)... Before the Battle of Tsushima, the ammunition of 305 mm guns was increased to 110 shells per barrel (30 armor-piercing and 80 forged high-explosive)...".
                1. 0
                  1 January 2025 22: 06
                  Thank you, Happy New Year to you too!
                  This information is from the work of S.A. Balakina

                  There were armor-piercing ones No. 1 and No. 2. And all the high-explosive ones were forged.
              2. 0
                1 January 2025 20: 33
                Accordingly, if we proceed from this data, cast high-explosive Japanese shells were used in all battles of the Russo-Japanese War, since there were no others until the autumn of 1904... request
                But in Tsushima there is only Fuji.
              3. 0
                1 January 2025 20: 35
                Apparently at Tsushima, Mikasa, Asahi and Shikishima used forged No. 1 land mines.
              4. 0
                1 January 2025 21: 04
                Forged steel high explosive projectile
                Japanese name "tanko:ryu:dan"
                Anglo-Saxon: "Drawn steel common shell"
                1. 0
                  1 January 2025 22: 09
                  Everything is correct here.
                  General Purpose Forged Steel Projectile (鍛鋼榴彈)
                  1. 0
                    1 January 2025 22: 27
                    But what about -
                    Cast steel common shell - Cast steel general purpose shell?
                    1. 0
                      1 January 2025 22: 47
                      There was one like that, but it was used very rarely, mainly for firing from obsolete guns.
                  2. 0
                    1 January 2025 22: 36
                    Apparently, the Japanese had not only armor-piercing shells, but also high-explosive shells, both cast and forged (more likely stamped).
                    1. 0
                      1 January 2025 22: 49
                      Are you sure that the armor-piercing shells were cast?
                      The armor penetration of such shells tended to zero.
                      1. 0
                        2 January 2025 05: 42
                        если верить http://fastpic.ru/view/66/2015/0107/42bd315d4dd9774d03d2ef6af3e1b0d8.jpg.html
                      2. 0
                        2 January 2025 08: 42
                        It is not clear from your picture what years you are talking about, what shells for what guns, etc.
                        There are other pictures)))
                        Summary tables of shell consumption in the Russian Navy. One by month. Another by ship. Shells are divided by type.
                      3. 0
                        2 January 2025 18: 32
                        I would be interested to watch it if you post a link.
                      4. 0
                        2 January 2025 23: 15
                        Table in Japanese
                        https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/meta/listPhoto?LANG=default&BID=F2006090101403694960&ID=M2006090101403694955&REFCODE=C05110112000
                        From 113 pdf file - table of summary consumption of shells with breakdown by ships and shell types
                        From 117 - ammunition consumption by month
                      5. 0
                        2 January 2025 23: 24
                        Thank you. But first I need to learn Japanese... belay
                      6. 0
                        2 January 2025 23: 34
                        Why are you scared? It's all simple there.
                        You can find the names of the ships in Wikipedia.
                        The names of the types of shells you have...
                        You can also find Japanese numbers, for example https://www.divelang.ru/blog/useful/yaponskie-chislitelnye-ieroglify-chisel/
                      7. 0
                        3 January 2025 14: 30
                        It is logical to assume that English-language or Japanese resources contain an album with drawings like our A.N.I.M.I. 1934. Everything would immediately become simpler...
                        http://i63.fastpic.ru/big/2015/0218/bf/b4a24fb3836711b26f4fc23c11eda2bf.jpg
                      8. 0
                        3 January 2025 14: 32
                        This is also from the Tsushima forums:
                        Some information about the actual 12-inch gun mounts of Japanese EBs from Yashima to Mikasa. Maybe it will be of interest to someone.

                        Developed by F. Armstrong (Elswick). According to the KF standard, they had the designation Mk V (pattern G). The Japanese had the designation 40 cal Type 41 30 cm.
                        They had a so-called "wire" design. The barrel consisted of an inner tube A, a breech with a breechblock, tubes B and C. Tube A extended from the obturator seat to the muzzle. The breech was connected to tube B by a thread. The wire was wound approximately 13 ft. from the shrink "collar" to the cut of tube C.
                        12dm\ 40 klb
                        Weight with bolt 49,343 kg
                        Length max 500,5 dm
                        Length of the barrel bore 484,5 dm
                        Length of the rifled part 34,29 ft
                        Length of loading chamber 63,6 dm
                        The volume of the charging chamber is 10893 sq. dm.
                        Pressure in the charging chamber 17 t/kV dm
                        Number of cuts 48
                        Twist from 1\600 to 1\30
                        The depth of the rifling ranges from 0,79 dm at the breech to 0,59 dm at the muzzle
                        The width of the rifling is from 0,0789 dm in the area of ​​the bolt to 0,300 dm at the muzzle
                        Weight of armor. Sn 850 lbs.
                        Weight of high explosive. Sn 850 lbs.
                        VV armored. Sn 26,6 f
                        High explosive. Sn 86,4 f
                        Charge weight 132,2 lbs cordite
                        Muzzle velocity 731,7 m/s (2400 f/s) armor and 1525 f/s HE.
                        Durability is approximately 100 shots
                        The mounts on Yashima and Fuji are similar to the B II as on Majestics with a pear-shaped barbette and a fixed angle of rotation during loading. In addition, the "turret" had several shells that could be loaded into the guns at any angle of rotation of the turret. On the remaining 4, the mounts were similar to the B IV, which allowed loading at any angle of rotation of the turret.
                      9. 0
                        3 January 2025 14: 51
                        Monthly combat expenditure of shells and bullets by the Japanese fleet in 1904-1905

                        Armstrong's 12-dm 40-caliber gun
                        Armor-piercing shells: February 1904 – 51, March – 91, August – 257, May 1905 – 31; total 430 pcs.
                        Forged steel high-explosive shells: February 1904 – 106, March – 68, August – 336, May 1905 – 424; total 934 pcs.

                        Armstrong's 10-dm 40-caliber gun
                        Forged steel high-explosive shells: April 1904 – 15, July – 5, August – 38, May 1905 – 50; total 108 pcs.

                        8-inch rapid-fire gun with a length of 45 calibers
                        Armor-piercing shells: February 1904 – 116, March – 66, April – 24, May – 23, July – 1, August – 689, May 1905 – 222, total 1141 pcs.
                        Forged steel high-explosive shells: February 1904 – 220, March – 58, April – 98, May – 15, July – 18, August – 836, May 1905 – 1173, total 2418 pcs.

                        15 cm Armstrong rapid-fire gun, 40 calibers long
                        Armor-piercing shells: February 1904 – 179, March – 193, April – 8, May – 25, July – 4, August – 2532, October – 153, November – 94, December – 151, May 1905 – 2732, total 6071 pcs.
                        Forged steel high-explosive shells: February 1904 – 1144, March – 104, April – 221, May – 77, June – 18, July – 31, August – 6279, September – 114, October – 759, November – 433, December – 29, May 1905 – 9295, July – 7, August – 4, total 18515 pcs.
                        Cast steel high-explosive shells: May 1904 – 4, September – 99, October – 659, November – 300, December – 87, total 1149 pcs.
                        Steel high-explosive shells: September 1904 – 118, October – 61, November – 425, December – 684, total 1288 pcs.
                        Conventional high-explosive shells: October 1904 – 178, November – 441, December – 141, total 760 pcs.
                        Practical shells: March 1905 – 1 pc.

                        12 cm Armstrong rapid-fire gun
                        Armor-piercing shells: February 1904 – 13, April – 4, May – 26, August – 3034, September – 504, October – 557, November – 1331, December – 696, May 1905 – 237, total 6402 pcs.
                        Forged steel high-explosive shells: February 1904 – 336, April – 44, May – 434, June – 54, July – 123, August – 2253, September – 163, October – 181, November – 87, December – 708, May 1905 – 2217, July – 58, August – 20, total 6678 pcs.
                        Cast steel high-explosive shells: August 1904 – 781, September – 2074, October – 1948, November – 466, December – 158, total 5427 pcs.
                        Steel high-explosive shells: September 1904 – 182, October – 549, November – 342, December – 107, total 1180 pcs.
                        Shrapnel shells: December 1904 – 2 pcs.
                        Conventional high-explosive shells: September 1904 – 718, October – 731, November – 550, December – 127, total 2126 pcs.
                        Practical shells: October 1904 – 4, November – 4, February 1905 – 4, total – 12 pcs.

                        12-pound rapid-fire gun with a length of 40 calibers
                        Armor-piercing shells: February 1904 – 16, March – 39, April – 3, May – 166, June – 88, July – 25, August – 8, September – 948, October – 54, May 1905 – 22, July – 9, total 1378 pcs.
                        Forged steel high-explosive shells: February 1904 - 503, March - 119, April - 260, May - 1250, June - 782, July - 3611, August - 16728, September - 1977, October - 3610, November - 3146, December - 1455, January 1905 - 58, February - 1, May - 9826, July - 369, August - 87, total 43782 pcs.
                        Cast steel high-explosive shells: April 1904 – 6, May – 5, June – 22, July – 1, August – 9, September – 1278, October – 2174, November – 1349, December – 1324, March 1905 – 5, July – 17, total 6190 pcs.
                        Steel high-explosive shells: June 1904 – 356, July – 5, August – 2, November – 17, July 1905 – 41, total 421 pcs.
                        Practical shells: March 1904 – 4, July – 4, August – 11, September – 36, October – 4, November – 6, total 65 pcs.

                      10. +1
                        3 January 2025 22: 45
                        Quote: 65-73
                        Monthly combat expenditure of shells and bullets by the Japanese fleet in 1904-1905

                        This is a translation of one of those signs.
              5. 0
                1 January 2025 21: 05
                http://fastpic.ru/view/66/2015/0107/42bd315d4dd9774d03d2ef6af3e1b0d8.jpg.html
                This is from the Tsushima forum:
                In short, if we are talking about what is called "drawn steel" in English, then this means piercing and drawing using a punch on a press. Now, in the context of shell production, this is called stamping. But in those wild times, when the term stamping itself had not yet been invented, it was generally called forging. On the third hand, the Japanese still use a specific name for the operation (drawn), which is necessary to distinguish it from an older manufacturing technology, when they forged not lengthwise, but crosswise, like cannon barrels, and when the term "forged" was used as a characteristic of the material (forged steel).ajh
          2. 0
            31 December 2024 13: 31
            An attempt to attack Sasebo is a better option than standing in the outer roadstead and waiting for the Japanese destroyers to arrive. Although, the approaches to Sasebo are very difficult from a navigational point of view. And if you take into account the coastal batteries and minefields, the difficulty increases many times over.
  10. +2
    30 December 2024 10: 50
    The first condition was not met, Russian 12-inch shells received gunpowder filling and tubes of the 1894 model. That is, fuses suitable for high-explosive, or at best, semi-armor-piercing shells.


    In this matter, the indicators are the experiments conducted in the Navy of different countries, with different, by weight, powder charges detonated overboard the ship and the impact on the bulkheads and decks. It is clear that it was desirable to have a more powerful explosive for equipping the shells, but 20-30 kg of gunpowder in a large-caliber shell also caused serious damage both behind the armored and unarmored side. These damages can be considered fatal in rare cases, but again everything comes down to the number of hits.
    1. +2
      30 December 2024 11: 24
      Quote: 27091965i
      but 20-30 kg of gunpowder in a large-caliber projectile also caused serious damage

      This is undoubtedly true. But our high-explosive one had only 6, and the armored one...
      1. -1
        30 December 2024 12: 53
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This is undoubtedly true. But in our high-explosive there were only 6, and in the armored one...

        In my opinion, the high-explosive shell weighs 12,4 kg, not much, but the effect of the explosion inside the case will be noticeable.
        1. +1
          30 December 2024 13: 02
          Quote: 27091965i
          In my opinion, the high explosive is 12,4 kg.

          No, we know for sure about the gunpowder content in a 12-inch high-explosive shell, from the documents of the investigative commission - just under 6 kg.
          1. 0
            30 December 2024 14: 29
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            No, we know for sure about the gunpowder content in a 12-inch high-explosive shell, from the documents of the investigative commission - just under 6 kg.

            I know this fact, but it requires detailed explanation and raises some doubts.
            1. +1
              30 December 2024 18: 53
              Quote: 27091965i
              I know this fact, but it requires detailed explanation and raises some doubts.

              It is confirmed by the Album of shells of 1934 - there are 12,4 kg of explosives, but we are talking about TNT... Translated into gunpowder, it turns out to be exactly 6 kg
              1. +1
                31 December 2024 12: 23
                Good morning.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It is confirmed by the Album of shells of 1934 - there are 12,4 kg of explosives, but we are talking about TNT... Translated into gunpowder, it turns out to be exactly 6 kg

                In 1894 there was no TNT, the Perm plant indicates a filling of up to 12 kg. The question arises, what explosive did the Perm plant mean?
                1. +2
                  31 December 2024 12: 35
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  The question arises, what kind of explosives did they mean at the Perm plant?

                  Pyroxylin with a cover?
            2. +2
              31 December 2024 12: 40
              Russian high-explosive shell model 1892:
              6 kg smokeless rifle powder;
              10 kg of pyroxylin, 25% humidity;
              12,3 kg trinitrotoluene.
              1. +2
                31 December 2024 12: 54
                Quote: 65-73
                10 kg of pyroxylin, 25% humidity;

                And plus the weight of the case itself
                1. +2
                  31 December 2024 12: 58
                  The resulting case weighs approximately 5 pounds (2 kg).
                  Based on the density of brass, 8,8 is normal, or 8,3 (brass for cartridge cases).
                  1. +2
                    31 December 2024 13: 00
                    Yes, that's exactly why I'm talking about 12 kg.
  11. +4
    30 December 2024 11: 57
    Andrey, thank you for the series of articles! They make you think about many issues and reconsider your views
    1. +2
      30 December 2024 13: 04
      Good day, Andrey, happy new year! Thank you for your help and literature!
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. +5
    30 December 2024 14: 33
    Andrei, good afternoon!

    Thank you for the informative series. The final conclusion about the correspondence between politics and economics is right on target.

    But I don't agree with you on everything...
    But only if two conditions are met.
    1. Equipping not only 10-inch, but also 12-inch armor-piercing shells with pyroxylin and Brink tubes;

    2. Formation of Russian squadrons of battleships, at a minimum not inferior, but preferably superior in speed to the ships of the main forces of the United Fleet.

    The most important condition is the ability to hit the enemy. And then the available shells would be quite enough.
    Inflicting decisive damage on the enemy with armor-piercing shells during the Russo-Japanese War was only possible during a long fire battle at a distance of about 15 cables or less.

    I disagree. Even at distances of 25-30 cables, our shells were capable of causing the enemy battleship to lose stability.
    Rejection of expensive high-explosive shells

    The shooting of the "Belisle" showed that even a large number of hits with lyddite shells is not capable of sinking a ship. Then why do we need expensive high-explosive shells? At that time, almost the key task for high-explosive shells was to work on coastal fortifications. And the existing shells showed themselves to be just fine.
    1. +2
      30 December 2024 17: 05
      Alexey, happy new year!
      Quote: rytik32
      The most important condition is the ability to hit the enemy. And then the available shells would be quite enough.

      Quote: rytik32
      I disagree. Even at distances of 25-30 cables, our shells were capable of causing the enemy battleship to lose stability.

      For my part, I substantiated my thesis by the fact that at such distances our shells had almost no chance of hitting the enemy's engines, boilers, magazines and minimal chance of hitting the main battery artillery. And to disable the Japanese battleships without the damage indicated, it was necessary to ensure more hits than the Japanese had on us.
      I would be happy to read your arguments about stability.
      1. +2
        30 December 2024 17: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        For my part, I substantiated my thesis by the fact that at such distances our shells had almost no chance of hitting the enemy’s main battery artillery, boilers, magazines and, at a minimum, the enemy’s main battery artillery.

        And what about the armor of armored cruisers? Half of the Japanese squadron consisted of non-armored cruisers that did not receive critical damage.
        1. +2
          30 December 2024 18: 50
          Quote from Kartograph
          And what about the armor of armored cruisers?

          They could. But our EBR line couldn't keep up with the Japanese battleships, let alone the BRCMs.
          1. -1
            31 December 2024 09: 05
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But our EBR line couldn’t keep up with the Japanese battleships, let alone the BRCMs.

            Sorry, but the armor of the BKR was penetrated at all distances. And there was no need to keep up for this. Maybe the problem is in the "Hit the head" setting?
      2. 0
        30 December 2024 23: 39
        Alexey, happy new year!

        Thank you, Happy New Year to you too!
        I would be happy to read your arguments about sustainability.

        I calculated the option if our 6-inch shells penetrated the unarmored side on the middle deck at the ends, penetrating the middle deck itself in a sufficient number of places so that water flooded both ends above the carapace deck. 12-inch shells would do this job with a much smaller number of hits.
        It turns out that the draft will increase by about 1,6 meters (by the way, where did you get 63,5 tons for every inch of draft?) - kind of bearable, but the MCC will decrease by 3 (three!!!) meters. If the MTSV was 1 meter, then it will become -2 meters. And this is a guaranteed overkill!
        1. +1
          31 December 2024 12: 29
          Good day! drinks
          Quote: rytik32
          by the way, where did you get 63,5 tons for every inch of sediment?)

          I think I took it from Balakin, but I didn’t find anything right away. I’ll look more carefully after the New Year:)))
          Quote: rytik32
          to flood both ends above the carapace deck. 12-inch shells will do the job with far fewer hits.

          Nevertheless, there must be quite a few such hits.
          Quote: rytik32
          It turned out that the draft will increase by approximately 1,6 meters

          It feels like it's similar, but I didn't count.
          Quote: rytik32
          but the MTS will decrease by 3 (three!!!) meters

          But here let me doubt your calculation. Have you shown it to anyone involved in shipbuilding?
          1. +1
            31 December 2024 13: 27
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I couldn't find anything right away

            I didn't find it either, even in Lengerer. I calculated it based on the area of ​​the gypsum fiber board, which I calculated by dividing the diagram into triangles and trapezoids.
            But here let me doubt your calculation.
            [/ Quote]
            The calculation is approximate, I took the coefficients of fullness, etc. from another Japanese battleship.
            [quote]Have you shown it to anyone involved in shipbuilding?

            No. I calculated using the formula from Yakovlev's work. In practice, these formulas work if applied to the damage to the Peresvet, Oslyabya and Siksisima - all of them had their MCC drop below zero at some point precisely because of flooding on the living/middle deck.
  14. +1
    30 December 2024 15: 14
    Andrey finally decided to draw some conclusions from his long series of articles about shells and armor penetration. Well... He got it - "as always". Lots of letters and numbers, but the conclusions themselves, oddly enough, have nothing to do with these numbers and are taken from somewhere out of thin air. request

    I will try to explain the assessment with examples.
    Russia also approached the creation of high-quality shells capable of penetrating the thickest armor with all possible responsibility. They did not skimp on armor-piercing shells, making them from high-quality steel, and testing methods for accepting shells into the treasury were constantly improved.

    Am I the only one who thinks that our author is a "time traveler"? In our real history, everything was just the opposite! wassat

    And the shells were made of some kind of junk, at first even from cast iron. And their filling was one of the worst in the world precisely due to the extremely low quality of steel. And there were no real tests, which caused a flurry of complaints about the shells and fuses, although often exaggerated.

    But at the same time, the author himself immediately and decisively refutes everything written in the first paragraphs.
    Penetration tests were conducted regularly, but there was no money to test the destructive power of the new steel shells. But it is not enough to penetrate the armor; you also need to damage the enemy ship behind it. And the decision to equip 12-inch armor-piercing shells with smokeless powder and tubes of the 1894 model seems completely inexplicable, as a result of which they completely lost their armor-piercing status, turning into very weak semi-armor-piercing ammunition.

    And how should we understand this split personality of the author? And this is not just one random paragraph, here, if you read carefully, half of the article decisively refutes the other half. laughing

    Let's try to dig a little into his conclusions.. Well, for example:
    3. The Japanese reliance on combat at distances of 30 cables and more was not predictable, as it was made on the basis of completely erroneous premises. In the end, the Japanese were successful, but it was not achieved in the way they expected.

    An example of a conclusion completely taken out of thin air. The author himself came up with some strange intentions and priorities and attributed them to the Japanese. And then he drew a conclusion from his invention. lol

    5. The superiority of the Japanese in squadron speed, together with the increase in the range of artillery combat, put the Russian Imperial Fleet in a clearly losing position, since under these conditions its main weapon could not be used.

    Another example of a far-fetched conclusion. The Japanese had no qualitative superiority in speed. It is enough to recall how in the Yellow Sea the Japanese chased the Russian squadron for several hours, barely squeezing out one and a half knots more. And not all Japanese ships could show the famous 18 knots, they would have had to match the slowest ones or they would fall behind and be destroyed by the enemy separately from the main forces.

    Well, and the main thing is that the Japanese need to achieve safety for their transports with landing troops. That is, the Russians are right in this matter, no matter what "superiority" the Japanese have, they will still have to approach the Russian main forces. Speed ​​is absolutely necessary for escape, and for ensuring the safety of convoys with landing troops, escape is not the best tactic.

    8. The main weapon of our fleet in the Russo-Japanese War was high-explosive shells, which before the war were considered auxiliary and which turned out to be of significantly worse quality than they could have been. The reason for this was economy.

    It's funny, but it's also hard to find grounds for such a conclusion in the previous articles. Unless the author insists that the Russians got not so much a purely high-explosive as a semi-armor-piercing shell, which of course could have been better. However, the main problem, the small number of hits, is not a complaint about the quality of the shells. But about the quality of planning and control of the Russian fleet.

    And here is the main conclusion, for which the entire series of articles was written:
    But, due to the above-mentioned reasons, in my opinion, the Russian Imperial Fleet was indeed significantly inferior to the Japanese Combined Fleet in its material part, and the “shell” issue became one of the key reasons for our defeat at sea in 1904-1905. Moreover, I estimate the influence of the “shell issue” coupled with the insufficient speed of our squadrons so highly that, again, in my opinion, it was impossible to compensate for it no matter how good the command of the 1st or 2nd Pacific Squadrons.

    It is not difficult to guess that the main goal of the author is just to justify the extremely bad management of both squadrons (and especially the 2nd TOE under the command of Rozhdestvensky), as well as the extremely disgusting planning and management of the Russian fleet as a whole. In which, a huge part of the blame lies with the same Rozhdestvensky. And it was precisely the shells that did not play a special role in the outcome of the war, which the author himself showed in his series of articles.

    Well, what the author wrote in his super-conclusions, what he called “lessons” are completely ridiculous banalities taken out of thin air.

    Do we need to spend more battleships? There are already twice as many of them in the Russian navy as the Japanese had. Two full squadrons against one Japanese one, and the fact that they were unable to concentrate and complete them in time is precisely a complaint against the management.

    Is it necessary to build high-quality and modern ships? No one argues, but any fleet is constantly in the process of renewal, and in addition to the newest ships, there are and will be old ones that are being prepared for decommissioning. The Japanese had the same Mikasa, but they also had Fuji, not to mention Chen-In wassat

    Not enough finances? Well, it's a question of planning and management again. The same Witte, while squeezing the budget of the Russian fleet, carefully and promptly paid Chinese reparations to the Japanese (with which they built their fleet). The same Witte, while limiting the budget of Port Arthur, poured millions into the advanced construction of Dalny (which Stessel later happily burned down). It was necessary to think with your head, and in a timely manner, and not rush for accelerated returns from the captured territories.

    In general, the article is "as usual", a sea of ​​words and letters, enough for a three-volume book, and the conclusions are empty.
    1. +5
      30 December 2024 18: 45
      Quote: Saxahorse
      In general, the article is "as usual", a sea of ​​words and letters, enough for a three-volume book, and the conclusions are empty.

      As I said, it is too complicated for you. That is why you do not see the logic in my articles.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Am I the only one who thinks that our author is a "time traveler"? In our real history, everything was just the opposite!

      You have simply forgotten the rules for testing Russian BB shells and materials about their quality.
      https://topwar.ru/236149-trudnyj-put-k-sovershenstvu-ili-ob-jevoljucii-metodik-ispytanij-snarjadov-morskoj-artillerii-v-period-1886-1914-gg.html
      https://topwar.ru/237600-ispytanija-120-mm-i-6-dm-morskih-snarjadov-1903-1906-gg-po-brone-kruppa.html
      https://topwar.ru/238053-ispytanija-morskih-krupnokalibernyh-snarjadov-i-opytnye-strelby-po-bronevomu-otseku-korablej-tipa-andrej-pervozvannyj.html
      Quote: Saxahorse
      And the shells were made from some kind of junk, at first even from cast iron... And their filling was one of the worst in the world precisely due to the extremely low quality of the steel.

      Whose fault is it that you are unable to distinguish a high-explosive shell from an armor-piercing one? High-explosive shells were made of junk, and armor-piercing shells were made of high-quality steel. But you cannot comprehend this, hence your
      Quote: Saxahorse
      here, if you read carefully, half of the article decisively refutes the other half.

      I write about high-explosive shells as bad, about BB shells as good, and poor Saxakhors, who doesn’t realize that we are talking about different shells, thinks that I am being illogical and contradicting myself.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      An example of a conclusion completely taken out of thin air. The author himself came up with some strange intentions and priorities and attributed them to the Japanese. And then he drew a conclusion from his invention.

      Saxahors, as always, you failed to understand logic.
      It is a fact that our BB shells could hit the boilers, engines, magazines, turrets and barbettes of Japanese battleships only at relatively short distances - 15-20 kbt and less.
      There is a second fact - the Japanese consciously tried not to get close to us at such a distance and, as a rule, they succeeded.
      From here, it would seem, the obvious consequence is that the Japanese have in fact turned off Russian BB shells from the artillery duel. But not for you, of course.
      You latched onto my conclusions about why the Japanese did this, declared them incorrect... but you failed to realize that my conclusion about the impossibility of using BB shells in the RYA is correct regardless of the reasons that forced the Japanese to keep long distances.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The Japanese had no qualitative advantage in speed. It is enough to recall how in the Yellow Sea the Japanese chased the Russian squadron for several hours, barely squeezing out one and a half knots more.

      And in about 3 hours, having reduced the distance by 10 miles between the squadrons... Saxahors, congratulations - you couldn't do either memory, logic, and now even arithmetic.
      Although even 1,5 knots of Japanese advantage did not allow them to get closer
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Well, and the main thing is that the Japanese need to achieve safety for their transports with landing troops. That is, the Russians are right in this matter, no matter what "superiority" the Japanese have, they will still have to approach the Russian main forces. Speed ​​is absolutely necessary for escape, and for ensuring the safety of convoys with landing troops, escape is not the best tactic.

      Alas, this doesn't even qualify as alternative history. It's not science fiction.
      The Japanese would have intercepted the Russian squadron and forced it into battle at a considerable distance from the landing site; there could have been no “cover for the transports” here.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      It’s funny, but it’s also difficult to find grounds for such a conclusion in previous articles.

      really? For this conclusion?
      The main weapon of our fleet in the Russo-Japanese War was high-explosive shells

      Let's try to repeat it
      It is a fact that our BB shells could hit the boilers, engines, magazines, turrets and barbettes of Japanese battleships only at relatively short distances - 15-20 kbt and less.
      There is a second fact - the Japanese consciously tried not to get close to us at such a distance and, as a rule, they succeeded.
      There is a third fact - at distances of more than 20-25 kbt it was necessary to shoot large-caliber high-explosive shells, and medium-caliber ones - at distances above 10-15 kbt. Because at such distances it was pointless to waste BB.
      There is a fourth fact - statistics. Russian ships used mainly high-explosive shells.
      All of the above has been said many times in my articles. The fact that you don't remember this, the fact that you can't add "2+2" - you are your own evil Pinocchio.
      1. -1
        30 December 2024 22: 50
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Let's try to repeat it

        Andrey, this is just ridiculous. I swear to God!

        It turns out that our AP shells were excellent, the HE shells were disgusting, so much so that we lost only because of their quality, and the fact that they were made in the same factory and from the same steel doesn't bother you? The fact that these "disgusting" HE shells simply didn't hit anywhere also has nothing to do with the results? fool

        I will repeat once again, for those who are "in the tank", the previous series of articles does not correlate in any way with the conclusions and results presented in this article. "In the garden there is an elderberry, and in Kyiv there is an uncle" - that's how it all looks. All these "conclusions" you simply sucked out of your finger.
        1. +3
          31 December 2024 08: 05
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It turns out that our AP shells were excellent, but our HE shells were disgusting, so much so that we lost only because of their quality, and the fact that they were made in the same factory and from the same steel doesn’t bother you?

          No. Because they were naturally made of different steel. The cost of the shells clearly indicates this, the high-explosive ones are much lower.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          I will repeat once again, for those who are "in the tank", the previous series of articles does not in any way correlate with the conclusions and results presented in this article.

          I will repeat once again, the fact that your conclusions did not correlate with the cycle is not the cycle’s fault:)))
    2. 0
      31 December 2024 01: 27
      About the ships.
      There were many useless ships built in the Russian Empire:
      3 battleships of the Peresvet type.
      3 armored cruisers included in the FOC.
      Armored cruiser "Bayan".
      Coastal defense battleships of the Sinyavin type.
      3 armored deck cruisers of the 1st rank of the Diana type.
      3 foreign armored cruisers of the 1st rank.
      2 rank cruisers "Novik", "Boyarin" with 2 mm guns.
      Cruiser of the 2nd rank "Almaz".


      For the money spent on this magnificence, it would have been possible to build/purchase from abroad normal squadron battleships with 305-mm guns, armored deck cruisers of the 2nd rank with 152-mm guns.

      And, if desired, armored cruisers with 203 mm guns, similar to the Garibaldi class.
      Which can perform a wide range of tasks, including cruising, stationary, reconnaissance, and reinforcement of squadron battleships in the line.
  15. +1
    30 December 2024 17: 01
    Thanks to the author! A good ending to an interesting series! love
    In general, I agree with the author in many ways, but:
    1) Command is of great importance. The same ZPR had 6 EBRs with a squadron speed of at least 15 knots, i.e. comparable to Togo!
    2) The author writes about expensive high-explosive shells, but they are no more expensive than AP shells! In my opinion, the emphasis on AP shells reflected the admirals' lack of understanding of the importance of the action of explosives on the ship's structure; they proceeded from the fragmentation, not the high-explosive/brisant action of shells! Hence the lack of understanding of the role of the explosive charge (including its mass) in shells, both high-explosive and AP! Therefore, if the adoption of a light AP shell is understandable, then a light high-explosive shell is impossible! request
    1. 0
      30 December 2024 18: 48
      Quote: DrEng02
      The same ZPR had 6 EBRs with a squadron speed of at least 15 knots, i.e. comparable to Togo!

      Usually they talk about 5, but who is the sixth?:))) And how to fight with 6 ships against 12?
      1. 0
        30 December 2024 21: 54
        Well, not against 12, but against 6. BrKr's chances in a direct duel with EBR are practically zero.
        1. +2
          30 December 2024 22: 13
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Well, not against 12, but against 6.

          The Japanese disagreed with this and chased 12
          Quote: TermNachTER
          BrKr's chances in a direct duel with EBR are practically zero.

          And who, with a ratio of 1:2, will expose him to a duel? What kind of fantasy is this? The main forces will tie up the fight, Kamimura will put the same stick over the T or put it in two fires...
          1. -1
            30 December 2024 22: 44
            This is all in theory. In reality, there was neither "T" nor two lights. Too bad, it would have been interesting to see what kind of sieve they would have made out of them.
            1. 0
              31 December 2024 08: 08
              Quote: TermNachTER
              This is all in theory. In reality, there was neither "T" nor two lights.

              In reality it wasn't 12 vs 6
              1. -1
                31 December 2024 11: 00
                That's right, Togo understood the vulnerability of these cruisers very well and tried to use them where the probability of hitting with 10- or 12-inch shells was minimal or completely absent.
                1. +2
                  31 December 2024 12: 00
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Togo understood the vulnerability of these cruisers very well and tried to use them there.

                  Where they will be of maximum use, which is why Kamimura in the same Tsushima met at fairly close range (with the "Eagle", for example, they exchanged fire with 30 kbt), and he had two BRCMs in the first combat, and, despite numerous hits, Nissin and Kasuga survived Tsushima
                  1. +1
                    31 December 2024 12: 21
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Despite numerous hits, Nissin and Kasuga survived Tsushima

                    Nissin and especially Kasuga received very modest numbers of hits.
          2. 0
            31 December 2024 00: 18
            Even funnier, draw the maneuvers for this request
      2. +2
        31 December 2024 00: 16
        Funny,,, this is Sisoy, wonderful 4 12 dm guns feel ...
        Do you want to compare the BRKR in line with the EBR? requestAsama's fate doesn't surprise you?
        By the way, just try shooting 12 ships at 6 bully There is such a science, geometry. request
        1. +2
          31 December 2024 08: 07
          So, your Sisoes should have been able to run at 15 knots of squadron speed?:)))
          No more questions.
          1. -2
            1 January 2025 01: 02
            Do you deny its speed?
            "then the battleship's senior mechanic, Lieutenant Colonel S. E. Borovsky, estimated the ship's capabilities significantly higher, believing that even in the Battle of Tsushima "the fullest speed could not have been more than 141/2 knots."
            1. +2
              1 January 2025 01: 35
              Quote: DrEng02
              the fullest speed could not be more than 141/2 knots

              14,5 knots maximum is 12 knots squadron speed at most. It's a shame not to know. It's no less shameful to think that I don't know Sisoj's maximum speed and not make any assumptions from it.
              1. +1
                2 January 2025 12: 26
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                14,5 knots maximum is 12 knots squadron speed at most. It's a shame not to know.

                You are so emotional! Are you so strict with Japanese EBRs? Sisoi is placed at the end of the column, and if it falls behind, it is not a problem. The desire to have ideal conditions in battle is idealism bully
                1. 0
                  2 January 2025 12: 46
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  Are you as strict with Japanese EBRs?

                  not me, but objective reality. Yes, the Japanese, who gave 18,5-more than 19 knots during tests, flew in squadrons at an average of 15 knots
                  1. 0
                    4 January 2025 22: 35
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    which during tests gave 18,5-more than 19 knots

                    I hope you know about the difference in testing methods of Russian and Japanese EBRs request
        2. 0
          31 December 2024 11: 03
          Well, actually, the Japanese have mastered squadron shooting tactics at a sufficient level. During exercises, they were even able to concentrate the fire of 4 EBMs on one target. But this is during exercises, in war, it works out differently.
          1. +2
            31 December 2024 11: 58
            Quote: TermNachTER
            During the exercises, they were even able to concentrate the fire of 4 EBRs on one target.

            Please clarify where and when these exercises took place.
  16. +2
    30 December 2024 17: 46
    With all due respect, there is no money, the land army needs to be strengthened. In 1914, 4 dreadnoughts were built in the Baltic, which did not participate in the war. In the 1930s, they began to build the Soviet Union battleships, although an analysis of WWI showed that they would not be able to go to the ocean. The result is that victory in the Great Patriotic War was achieved on the battlefield, not at sea, the same could have been done in the Russian Navy.
    1. 0
      30 December 2024 21: 55
      That's roughly what the generals said. Alas, the process of building the state's armed forces is much more complex and extensive.
    2. 0
      30 December 2024 22: 07
      Quote from Kartograph
      In the 1930s, they began building the Sovetsky Soyuz cruiser, although an analysis of WWI showed that they would not be able to go out into the ocean.

      Theoretically, it can be assumed that the "Sov. Soyuz" will not be able to pass through the Danish Straits due to its draft (although the "Bismarck" was not bothered by its draft at all), but what would have stopped the other three?
      1. 0
        31 December 2024 09: 02
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Quote from Kartograph
        In the 1930s, they began building the Sovetsky Soyuz cruiser, although an analysis of WWI showed that they would not be able to go out into the ocean.

        Theoretically, it can be assumed that the "Sov. Soyuz" will not be able to pass through the Danish Straits due to its draft (although the "Bismarck" was not bothered by its draft at all), but what would have stopped the other three?

        The draft is the last thing here. The question is where were they going to go? Disrupt communications? Shoot at the ports?
        Why didn't the four Svastopols go anywhere?
        And most importantly, no one knew that Britain would be our ally.
        1. +1
          31 December 2024 12: 14
          Quote from Kartograph
          The draft is the last thing here. The question is where were they going to go? Disrupt communications? Shoot at the ports?

          Wherever the Motherland ordered, there we would go...

          Quote from Kartograph
          Why didn't the four Svastopols go anywhere?

          The mine situation in the Baltic was not conducive to such adventures.
          Even if you remove the mines, you could easily run into vastly superior enemy forces, which might not sink you, but they would definitely damage you.

          Quote from Kartograph
          And most importantly, no one knew that Britain would be our ally.

          As they say, if I knew the winnings, I would live in Sochi...
    3. 0
      30 December 2024 22: 40
      Quote from Kartograph
      the same could be done in RYAV.

      Strongly unlikely.
      1. 0
        31 December 2024 09: 18
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Quote from Kartograph
        the same could be done in RYAV.

        Strongly unlikely.

        At the time of Mukden, Kuropatkin already had more troops than the Japanese. And they continued to arrive. Moreover, if it were not for the failures of the fleet, which had a demoralizing effect on society and the army, everything could have been different.
        1. 0
          31 December 2024 12: 04
          Quote from Kartograph
          At the time of Mukden, Kuropatkin already had more troops than the Japanese.

          They had never had a significant advantage before, which did not stop Kuropatkin and his ilk from losing all battles.
          Quote from Kartograph
          Moreover, if it were not for the failures of the fleet, which had a demoralizing effect on society and the army, everything could have been different.

          But let's not blame it on our own. While the navy had some successes, the army has nothing to brag about at all.
          There are, of course, many reasons for this, but the first is a complete failure in planning. Instead of transferring priority units from European Russia, our generals, with the persistence of a maniac, dragged second-class reserve soldiers from the internal districts and Western Siberia to the front, most of whom had never served and had never seen an NTV. As a result, our militia had to fight with a Japanese army that was not the most advanced, but was fully trained and European-style trained.
          Plus, there was a bacchanalia of nepotism, theft and general irresponsibility among the commanding staff of the Manchurian army.
          Kuropatkin was a smart and experienced staff officer, a good regiment commander and a strong manager. He could have easily become the head of a division, but the post of commander, as well as the post of minister, was beyond his capabilities. request
          We talk a lot, and quite rightly, about the guilt and incompetence of admirals, while completely forgetting that the generals' situation was no better. And in many respects even worse...
          Something like that.
  17. +2
    30 December 2024 19: 43
    A great ending to a great series. Respect.
  18. -1
    30 December 2024 20: 22
    And where is the money? And the money was spent in Paris on cabarets and prostitutes)

    Here it is, the end of the Romanov dynasty. From the formation of the Russian fleet to its collapse
    1. 0
      31 December 2024 16: 42
      Quote: FoxNova
      Here it is, the end of the Romanov dynasty. From the formation of the Russian fleet to its collapse

      And now?
  19. +4
    30 December 2024 21: 01
    Greetings, dear namesake hi
    Plus it's been standing since the morning Yes good
    Even at school, as soon as I started to get interested in the history of the fleet, I was overwhelmed by fantasy moods that if I were an admiral, I would give the Japs a good beating. But over time, when analytical thinking came, when you look at a problem from all angles, take into account all the circumstances, then you don’t want to steer the bridge. Because now we all know this, but then... That’s why I’m not particularly surprised by the stubbornness of some commentators who decided for themselves that their opinion is correct and nothing else and that’s it. They take a word out of context and build their “correct” version on it... request
    I agree with you on almost everything. The notorious economy did its dirty work in everything. And the ships were generally a little worse, and the weapons did not meet the changed conditions. Here, no matter how much of a genius you are, the enemy is faster, his shells do more damage, the gunners shoot more accurately... Alas, but this is reality. And you can't defeat the enemy with slogans...
    And only a number of dreamers will still foam at the mouth to prove that Tsushima could have been avoided and that Vitgeft was a genius under Shantung... And other "if only" and "would have"...
    But the truth seems to be on the surface: the advantage in speed allows you to impose your own conditions of battle - the choice of distance and place for the effective use of your weapons.
    And no matter what the "armchair" geniuses sing about the 15 knots of the "Fuji" and the 18 of the "Borodinites", the reality is still more terrible - Neither the Arthurians managed to endure, nor Rozhdestvensky. Because they were catching up and getting hit with 30 kbt. And this is just the consequences of savings and wrong decisions made before the war. And the same reality is that they did not even imagine that it would turn out like this. Unlike us with our hindsight...
    Congratulations, the cycle was a success for me good Material for those who have ears, let them hear smile
    We are waiting for further articles. And happy new year! drinks All the best, and most importantly health. soldier
    With u, I hi
    1. -1
      30 December 2024 23: 08
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And no matter what the "armchair" geniuses sing about the 15 knots of the "Fuji" and the 18 of the "Borodinites", the reality still turns out to be more terrible - Neither the Arthurians managed to endure it, nor Rozhdestvensky. Because they were catching up and hitting with 30 kbt.

      Well, let's say they were catching up. In the Yellow Sea, for example (after how many hours?) Well, they caught up. So what? The result was zero, not a single one sunk. The only thing they managed to do was scare them. Boo! And they themselves ran back in panic. At Tsushima, it was just the opposite, Rozhdestvensky himself stuck his head in the T-crossing guillotine, and a decisive result was achieved in the first minutes of the battle and at minimal distances. For some reason, reality does not coincide with your ideas about it. There were no special results from shooting at long distances.
      1. +4
        30 December 2024 23: 41
        Quote: Saxahorse
        So what? The result is zero, not a single one sunk.

        The result? The Pacific Ocean squadron ceased to exist - NOT A SINGLE pennant made it to Vladivostok. Those that were lost at dusk were either interned until the end of the war or self-sunk ("Novik"). So what, do they have to be sunk? And that's not a result?
        Rozhdestvensky himself stuck his head in the T-crossing guillotine

        Rozhestvensky received T-crossing because of Togo's superiority in speed. I repeat - you think with hindsight.
        A decisive result was achieved in the first minutes of the battle and at minimal distances.

        Yeah, but on average almost the entire battle was fought at 30(+-) kbt.
        There were no particular results from shooting at long distances.

        The Arturians didn't break through to Vladik, the Baltiians didn't either. If that's not a result, then I don't know what else is meant by the word "result"wassat For the yuppies, it's a victory in the war. Well, you have your own vision. To each his own. request
        1. +1
          31 December 2024 00: 15
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Rozhestvensky received the T-crossing due to Togo's superior speed.

          I wonder if Rozhestvensky read Chlodowski's "Experience with Squadron Combat Tactics" published in 1903? It describes evasive maneuvers as self-evident.
          1. +2
            31 December 2024 06: 32
            Alexey hi , you are an adult... and why didn't you deviate at Tsushima? Don't forget that a fight for the sake of a fight is one thing, but when you have a specific task, you have traveled half the world, connected with various slow-moving facilities that will be needed in the future, and you have an end point of the route - then no matter how many circles you cut, the course will still be HO23 wink
            Sometimes it’s funny to read kindergarten in reflections, where they’ve come to the same conclusion and are chewing over it and adjusting the possible reality to their conclusions. request
            I'm sure you've read it. But you haven't stood on the bridge of the Suvorov with a bunch of other inputs. When you have a hodgepodge, when there are a bunch of transports behind your stern, when you know the technical condition of all your ships at the time of the battle, when you have been given certain "wishes" from above and when you have the results of the Arthurian battles. When you know that the enemy is faster... That's the same...
            And now it’s easy to sit and show off your hindsight hi
            1. +1
              31 December 2024 12: 15
              fighting for the sake of fighting is one thing

              A general battle is the surest way to gain supremacy at sea.
              you have a specific task

              Let me remind you, the task is to “take control of the Sea of ​​Japan.”
              connected with different slow-moving economy

              here he is his own evil Pinocchio
              there is a final route point

              Rozhestvensky came up with the task of "breaking through to Vladivostok" himself. What Nicholas II ordered him to do I wrote above.
              You weren't standing on the bridge of the Suvorov

              No one stood on the bridge of the Suvorov during the battle; they were crouched in the conning tower
              1. +1
                31 December 2024 13: 00
                Quote: rytik32
                were crouched in the conning tower

                Where did you get this data from, please tell me.
                1. 0
                  31 December 2024 13: 40
                  Krzhizhanovsky's notebook
                  1. 0
                    31 December 2024 14: 37
                    Can I get a quote?
                    1. +1
                      31 December 2024 17: 19
                      You can't stick your head out above the wheelhouse because of the shrapnel. You can only look out and then hide your head.
                      Perhaps I've met him somewhere else
                      1. +1
                        31 December 2024 18: 18
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You can't stick your head out above the wheelhouse because of the shrapnel. You can only look out and then hide your head.

                        You can also remember Semenov
                        The admiral and the commander, both bending down, looked into the gap between the armor and the roof.
                      2. 0
                        31 December 2024 19: 24
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The admiral and the commander, both bending down, looked into the gap between the armor and the roof.

                        The deckhouse clearance was high, on the "Eagle" they even made a wooden stand for Jung so that he wouldn't stand on tiptoe. It's not clear then why the admiral and the commander were bending over... They were both not tall.
          2. 0
            31 December 2024 08: 10
            Quote: rytik32
            It describes the evasive maneuver as self-evident.

            Rozhdestvensky and rejected by the inner circle
            1. +1
              31 December 2024 12: 04
              Having waited until "Mikasa" was almost cutting off the course?
              Sorry, this is a disgrace and not a maneuver.
              1. +1
                31 December 2024 12: 59
                Alexey, you know that I do not agree with your picture of maneuvering. Therefore, my answer is no, there was no Mikasa at the crossing of the course. And there was no shame either.
                1. +1
                  31 December 2024 13: 31
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  no, there was no Mikasa at the crossing

                  Of course, it didn't come to an intersection. But even Semenov writes
                  In a quarter of an hour on the new course the Japanese had again moved forward a lot, and now the Mikaza, leading the column, was gradually leaning to the right to intercept us. I expected that we would also immediately begin to turn in the same direction, but the admiral held on the old course for some time. I guessed that with this maneuver he wanted to reduce the distance as much as possible. Indeed, this would have been advantageous for us, since with the rangefinders and observation posts knocked out, our artillery was only good for firing almost point-blank. However, releasing the enemy across the course and exposing ourselves to longitudinal fire was also not a good idea. Tensely counting the moments, I watched and waited... The thoughts flashed through my head: "It's time! Or not?.. No - it's time!.." - the Mikaza was getting closer and closer to our course. Now the right 6-inch turret was ready to fire... At that moment we quickly rolled to the right
                  1. +2
                    31 December 2024 14: 38
                    That is, according to Semenov, it turns out to be a completely reasonable maneuver with a reduction in distance, which is what we needed.
                    1. +2
                      31 December 2024 17: 21
                      But was the distance reduced? The Japanese write that it was not reduced.

                      Well, and secondly. What's the point of going to the enemy in a wake formation? We need to do it in front!
                      1. 0
                        31 December 2024 18: 15
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But was the distance reduced? The Japanese write that it was not reduced.

                        It seemed to be shortening, but the point is not in the opinion of the Japanese, but in how it was seen from the Russian side. I will say this, the distance was clearly shortening until the turn of the Japanese columns was completed - this is a self-evident fact.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Well, and secondly. What's the point of going to the enemy in a wake formation? We need to do it in front!

                        Yes, it was necessary to put a T crossing, but, damn, there were no such opportunities. Just as there was no time to turn to the front, and, to be honest, there was no point either.
                      2. +1
                        31 December 2024 18: 41
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the distance was clearly decreasing until the Japanese columns had completed their turn - this is a self-evident fact

                        Are we talking about different times of the fight?
                        I wrote about maneuvering 2:15...2:25 (Russian), i.e. before the Suvorov's formation left. As I understood, you are talking about the very beginning of the battle.
        2. 0
          31 December 2024 13: 03
          Quote: Rurikovich
          So what, do you have to heat it? And this is not a result??

          Yes! In a naval battle you have to sink! In the heat of the moment, have you forgotten what exactly we are discussing? Not the result at all, it has been known for a hundred years. We are discussing the reasons for the defeat of the Russian fleet. Panic is certainly a serious reason, but to rely only on it before a battle is, to put it mildly, naive. The guards crew of Alexander, like the crew of Borodino, fought hard, to the last. If it were not for the hopeless stupidity of Rozhdestvensky, the Japanese would have had no chance in this battle. And all these tales of Andrey about "grenades of the wrong system" are just garbage that only suits the most unpretentious fans.
          1. 0
            31 December 2024 18: 45
            Quote: Saxahorse
            We discuss the reasons for the defeat of the Russian fleet

            Duc yes Yes The author expressed his opinion with this cycle that one of the weighty reasons for the defeat was the lagging material and technical base of the ships and their weapons, which did not allow the battle to be fought on our terms. request As a result, due to lack of funding (or better to say, improper use in the main directions) we received ships with the main armament from the BBS, which, due to their lower speed, could not get close to the enemy for their effective use. And if you add the lack of more advanced optical sights and the lack of full-fledged combat training, then personally I also agree with the author's opinion. The rest of the mumbling from empty to empty is rather stretching an owl onto a globe in order to show with hindsight one's genius and the stupidity of the participants in those battles. request
            1. +1
              1 January 2025 13: 59
              Quote: Rurikovich
              The author expressed his opinion with this cycle that one of the weighty reasons for the defeat was the lagging material and technical base of the ships and their weapons, which did not allow the battle to be fought on our terms.

              No, that's not it. In a series of articles, the author discussed fuses and the contents of high-explosive shells, armor penetration and the distance required for this with armor-piercing shells. He noted that the fuses turned out to be better than was commonly believed and complained that Russian high-explosive shells were more like semi-armor-piercing shells than pure high-explosive shells. He praised the BB, but noted that they were only suitable for short distances. Which was obvious before. There was nothing about speed. There was nothing about tactics. There was nothing about shooting training in this series either.

              And suddenly, sudden conclusions, in which the author suddenly places the main blame for the defeat on the shells, and high-explosive ones at that. As they say - we didn't expect it! Such conclusions do not follow from the previous cycle at all! Where did he get the idea that it was high-explosive shells that could achieve a decisive result - is unclear. The battle in the Yellow Sea completely refutes this. References to the Japanese, who allegedly came up with a way to fight battleships, are entirely on the author's conscience, they are very delusional. Well, and it is complete nonsense to place the blame on a lack of funding. Funding is secondary to planning. The tasks that were considered priority were financed. So they did not use their heads when they were planning.

              In general, as I wrote above, this article is not the conclusion of the series but simply a collection of conjectures taken out of thin air. He did not substantiate this nonsense in any way in the previous articles and did not confirm it in any way. All these alleged "conclusions" are stupidly sucked out of the finger, the usual songs of bun-crunchers in every possible way justifying the tsarist admirals as well as the most simple-minded Nikolay.
              1. 0
                1 January 2025 19: 19
                Quote: Saxahorse
                Praised BB, but noted that they are only suitable for short distances. Which was obvious before. Nothing was said about speed.

                Oh, come on!!! But for some reason it seems to me that the author talked about this in the conclusions
                4. During the Russo-Japanese War, the Russian Imperial Navy did not have the opportunity to use armor-piercing shells, since it could not form a squadron that would simultaneously have sufficient strength to defeat the main forces of the Japanese fleet and a speed not inferior to the 1st combat detachment of H. Togo.

                5. The superiority of the Japanese in squadron speed, together with the increase in the range of artillery combat, put the Russian Imperial Fleet in a clearly losing position, since under these conditions its main weapon could not be used.

                6. Before the Russo-Japanese War, the lower squadron speed of our units could not be perceived as a decisive disadvantage that would devalue armor-piercing shells. It was logical to assume that, despite their superior speed, the Japanese would seek to get closer to our battleships to use their armor-piercing shells, and therefore would fall within the range of our ammunition of the same purpose.

                Or is the author right after all, that some people simply don’t read the material and follow their own desires? wink
                And the author mentioned preparation
                But the money allocated for this was obviously too little! They tried to build more ships, putting up with savings on shells and exercises, but still got insufficient. Considering that Peresvet and Pobeda should have been considered more as armored cruisers than squadron battleships, the Pacific Ocean Squadron at the beginning of the war was inferior to the Japanese fleet in all classes of warships. Well, if they had concentrated on shells and exercises, they would have had to reduce the already insufficient number of battleships, cruisers, and destroyers concentrated in Vladivostok and Port Arthur.

                But training is preparation.
                And here are your conclusions
                All these supposed "conclusions" are simply far-fetched, the usual songs of bun-crunchers who in every way justify the tsarist admirals as well as the most simple-minded Nikolay.

                confirm that instead of thoughtfully analyzing the materials and history, you rather follow the principle of "and Baba Yaga is against it."
                Write your cycle with proofs from the back, and we will read. Maybe we will agree if it will be based objectively on booms, books, memories... But I am more than sure that this will not happen wink smile Happy New Year! hi
                P.S. The author, by the way, writes as neutrally as possible, without slogans about stupid Rozhdestvensky and bloody Nikolay. And if he mentions them, then only in the context of documents and logical conclusions. Unlike you... feel Moral of the story - even criticism should be constructive and mutually respectful Yes
                1. 0
                  2 January 2025 00: 00
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  Oh, come on!!! But for some reason it seems to me that the author talked about this in the conclusions

                  Andrey Nikolaevich, forgive me for asking a direct question. Do you speak Russian well? Just above, I wrote to you in black and white that the so-called "conclusions" do not contain any justification in the previously published series of articles. You stupidly repeat the same conclusions sucked out of your finger... And where, excuse me, did you get all this nonsense?

                  I even got the feeling that it wasn't you who answered, but some other AI-based bot. There's a lot of this garbage out there now, they're quite noticeable because they're empty and verbose.
                  1. 0
                    2 January 2025 00: 15
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Just above, in black and white, I wrote to you that the so-called “conclusions” do not contain any justification in the previously published series of articles.

                    Well, that's your opinion. But personally, I understand from the cycle what the author wanted to say and why he made such conclusions that you will never accept, because it will not be your way. smile
                    You can pour from empty to empty forever. I could answer sarcastically, but I think we will cross paths in the comments more than once. Therefore, it is better to close this topic, because you will still remain with yours, and I will remain with mine. And there is no point in this squabble. You are stubborn, and with age I have at least some decency and conscience left, so as not to stoop to insults in front of the monitor (which is fashionable now).
                    So relax, I'm not a bot wink
                    P.S. And yes, write an article about your conclusions. Maybe they won't be far-fetched. It's already getting very interesting...Happy New Year
                    1. 0
                      2 January 2025 13: 14
                      Quote: Rurikovich
                      You can go on pouring from empty to empty forever.

                      It is necessary not to pour, and even shake, but simply to substantiate. They could have taken and quoted with references some parts of the cycle confirming this or that "conclusion". And "opinions" are about faith and not about knowledge.

                      Happy New Year to you too!
              2. +2
                1 January 2025 23: 51
                Bulkokhrusty, have you forgotten that before the war, the ships that were in the Pacific Ocean left for the Baltic, but the Oslyabya was unable to get to the war.

                Well, the purchase of a whole series of ships raises questions about why they were needed.
                If the fleet does not have modern battleships.
                1. +2
                  2 January 2025 00: 05
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  Well, the purchase of a whole series of ships raises questions about why they were needed.

                  Well, yes, there are plenty of questions. For example, work on battleships at the Baltic Shipyard was suspended in order to lay down the governor's yacht Almaz in 1902.
                  1. +2
                    2 January 2025 10: 05
                    But the money allocated for this was obviously too little! They tried to build more ships, putting up with savings on shells and exercises, but still got insufficient. Considering that Peresvet and Pobeda should have been considered more as armored cruisers than squadron battleships, the Pacific Ocean Squadron at the beginning of the war was inferior to the Japanese fleet in all classes of warships. Well, if they had concentrated on shells and exercises, they would have had to reduce the already insufficient number of battleships, cruisers, destroyers concentrated in Vladivostok and Port Arthur...


                    This is funny to read.
                    "Sisoy Veliky" and "Navarin" were transferred from the Pacific Ocean to the Baltic before the war.
                    "Nikolai I" left there much earlier, it could have been transferred there.
                    Move Oslyabya to the Far East faster.
                    Buy 2 armored cruisers of the Garibaldi type.
                    Move "Emperor Alexander III" to help the 1st Pacific Squadron, etc.
      2. +1
        31 December 2024 11: 06
        At Tsushima, Togo tried to make a crossing - it turned out very badly and only Rozhdestvensky's mistake did not lead to tragic consequences.
    2. +2
      31 December 2024 12: 03
      Good day, dear namesake, happy upcoming holidays! hi
      Thank you for your kind words. I have always valued your opinion, and will continue to do so. See you in the new 2025!:) drinks
  20. +1
    31 December 2024 00: 29
    Quote: TermNachTER
    There were thoughts that Russia should have simply held out for another 3-4 months, without offensives or grand battles - just held the front line that had been formed at that time and Japan would have fallen apart on its own.

    That's it!
  21. -2
    31 December 2024 10: 28
    Again this Andrey is trying hard to mislead everyone: supposedly our shells were bad and there was not enough money for test firing. At the same time, he does not want to remind the stupid readers with a single word that test firing was carried out back in 1892! Then, during the meeting of the two second emperors: Russian Nicholas II and German Wilhelm II, firing was carried out at shields. And everything is still practically classified: were those shields on an island or floating on the water in the sea? And most importantly: how did the Russian shells work - did they explode upon impact with the surface of the earth or sea or not? Until now, not a single naval historian has written a single word about this. But these were, in fact, test firings. And if many here believe that shells need to be tested by firing at armor plates - then wasn't such a test carried out upon acceptance of each batch of manufactured shells? The shameless deception or his complete delusion is that he compares only the force of the explosion of Russian and Japanese shells, that is, the weight of the explosives in them. But when an armor-piercing and even semi-armor-piercing shell penetrates armor, it knocks out a lot of steel fragments from the armor. Just remember the Second World War: Soviet tank crews received multiple shrapnel wounds and their faces were often disfigured by fragments of their own armor! And Andrey does not mention fragments of Japanese armor in a single word. But for comparison, Japanese shells did not penetrate Russian armor at all and therefore did not knock out any fragments from it.
    And most importantly: for the admirals of the nineteenth century, there was an immutable axiom: you can't sink an armored ship WITHOUT penetrating the armor! And in Tsushima, this axiom was violated. Whereas in the battle in the Yellow Sea, this axiom was fully confirmed. And why such a difference?
    To deceive his readers, Andrey does not mention that about 200 tons of sea water had accumulated in the central casemate of all four Borodino-class battleships, so much so that the gunners of the anti-mine guns of this room walked almost KNEE-DEEP in water. And on none of the battleships did the Russian officers think of draining this water into the hold, only on the Orel its sailors AUTHORITATIVELY drained this water, and almost sank their battleship, and all three others were constantly listing. So: the readers, just like those officers, do not think of grabbing Andrey by the collar and shaking him hard, asking: where did 200 tons of sea water come from in the casemates? After all, the central casemate was ABOVE sea level! So for what reasons did the water violate the laws of physics and flow UP? And why was sea water not poured into the casemates of the battleships of Vitgeft’s squadron?
    And most importantly: why were Japanese shells that could not penetrate armor able to sink Russian battleships, despite the pre-war axiom that without penetrating the armor it is IMPOSSIBLE to sink a battleship! And explain: for what reason did Borodino explode - after all, Japanese shells could not penetrate the armor of its turrets? And even if they had, the Japanese shells still could not have detonated Russian shells - for example, on the Askold racer, fragments of Japanese shells penetrated the loading compartment of a Russian torpedo prepared for firing and loaded with wet pyroxylin - but it did not explode! And Russian shells generally have very thick walls - you can't penetrate them with any fragments.
    1. +3
      31 December 2024 12: 18
      Quote: geniy
      So, readers, just like those officers, do not think to grab Andrey by the collar and shake him hard, asking: where did 200 tons of sea water come from in the casemates? After all, the central casemate was ABOVE sea level! So for what reasons did the water violate the laws of physics and flow UP? And why did sea water not pour into the casemates on the battleships of Vitgeft's squadron?

      As they say? Everything ingenious is simple. :)
      Read what Kostenko writes about this.
      1. -1
        31 December 2024 14: 51
        Macsen_Wledig As they say? Everything ingenious is simple. :)
        Read what Kostenko writes about this.

        And I don’t need to read what Kostenko wrote there - because it’s my reference book - I’ve been reading and rereading it since childhood and I know it almost by heart.
        I need Andrey from Chelyabinsk to write about this and explain to all of you - where did all the Borodino battleships get more than 200 tons of water in the casemate?
        1. 0
          31 December 2024 15: 49
          Quote: geniy
          I need Andrey from Chelyabinsk to write about this and explain to all of you - where did all the Borodino battleships get more than 200 tons of water in the casemate?

          Why do you think that all the readers of the public are dumber than you and haven’t read Kostenko?
          1. -1
            31 December 2024 16: 01
            Why do you think that all the readers of the public are dumber than you and haven’t read Kostenko?
            Yes, of course you all read, probably with difficulty finding familiar letters of the alphabet, but can any of you understand what exactly Kostenko wrote? I asked everyone in Russian: FOR WHAT REASON did more than 200 tons of water accumulate in the central casemate of all the Borodinites - after all, there were no holes in the sides of the casemate... And what is the answer? Complete silence, because no one understands anything.
            1. +1
              31 December 2024 16: 56
              Quote: geniy
              And what is the answer? Complete silence, because no one understands anything.

              Consequences of the struggle for survival, if you suddenly couldn't find the answer in Kostenko... :)
              1. -2
                31 December 2024 17: 06
                Consequences of the struggle for survival, if you suddenly couldn't find the answer in Kostenko... :)

                And that's all you could understand from reading that same Kostenko, whom most of you, Rozhdestvensky's fans, hate?
                But will you tell me: if the fight for survivability had been carried out correctly, was it not possible to remove the water from the casemate - either by pumping it out or gradually draining it into the hold?
                1. 0
                  31 December 2024 17: 12
                  Quote: geniy
                  And that's all you could understand by reading that same Kostenko.

                  I can't compare to your genius...

                  Quote: geniy
                  which one do most of you - Rozhdestvensky fans - hate?

                  Besides being a genius, you also love hanging labels... :)

                  Quote: geniy
                  But will you tell me: if the fight for survivability had been carried out correctly, was it not possible to remove the water from the casemate - either by pumping it out or gradually draining it into the hold?

                  And you need to look at how the drainage system was arranged.
    2. +3
      31 December 2024 12: 35
      Okay for "Orel", but "Borodino" and "Alexander"? There were practically no survivors there (I think there was one from "Borodino"). Did he personally tell you how they waded in knee-deep water in casemates, or did you make it up yourself in your erotic fantasies, our unrecognized genius?
      1. -2
        31 December 2024 14: 46
        Rakovor: Okay for "Orel", but "Borodino" and "Alexander"? There were practically no survivors there (I think there was one from "Borodino"). Did he personally tell you how they waded in knee-deep water in casemates, or did you make it up in your erotic fantasies, our unrecognized genius?
        Well, you need a little bit of intelligence to understand what was happening on the other Borodino ships. For example, before her death, Alexander III first had a HUGE list to the LEFT side - so that her guns almost touched the water - and of course you can't guess with your head - what was the reason for this list? And then - at the last moment, she suddenly switched with a list to the STARBOARD side, and began to scoop up water into the OPEN PORTS of the starboard side of the central casemate. I understand that it is difficult for amateurs to guess what was really happening there.
        And you don't know anything about Borodino either. But eyewitnesses said that before it died it was moving with a LIST TO THE STARBOARD.
        Well, and about Suvorov too: Semenov wrote in Russian that Suvorov was controlled by machines and the list was shifting from the left side to the right side. Of course, you don’t know why this happens? And then, when Suvorov was in circulation, Suvorov said in a conversation with another officer:
        But we have a fair tilt to the LEFT (side)
        Yes, it will be about eight degrees...
        And you don't suspect anything?
        But I studied at the shipbuilding faculty and at the military department we were told that for any ship, freely flowing masses of water from the starboard to the port side are very dangerous, which even create NEGATIVE initial stability.
        1. 0
          31 December 2024 15: 50
          Quote: geniy
          But I studied at the shipbuilding faculty and at the military department we were told that for any ship, freely flowing masses of water from the starboard to the port side are very dangerous, which even create NEGATIVE initial stability.

          Well... Now it's clear that you did read Kostenko... laughing
          1. -1
            31 December 2024 16: 03
            Well... Now it's clear that you did read Kostenko...

            And did you personally understand anything from Kostenko? For what reason did all the Borodino residents accumulate more than 200 tons of water in the central casemate?
            1. +1
              31 December 2024 16: 39
              Quote: geniy
              Well... Now it's clear that you did read Kostenko...

              And did you personally understand anything from Kostenko? For what reason did all the Borodino residents accumulate more than 200 tons of water in the central casemate?

              Water flowed from above from extinguishing fires. What a binomial theorem and why spread this question over ten posts?
              1. -1
                31 December 2024 16: 49
                Water flowed from above from extinguishing fires. What a binomial theorem and why spread this question over ten posts?

                My God! Finally, at least one person answered! And won't you tell me - did water from extinguishing fires also accumulate in casemates in hundreds of tons on all the ships of Vitgeft's squadron and freely wander around the deck, creating lists?
                And one more question: do you also understand that water for extinguishing fires does not appear by itself as if by magic - but is pumped by pumps. And this means that the fire pumps were actually pumping WATER into the Borodino residents - that is, they were drowning themselves. And you all call this a struggle for survivability?
                And also - wouldn't you tell me - why did the Borodino men have such big fires that the water from extinguishing them flowed into the central casemate, but the ships of Vitgeft's squadron didn't have such fires? Can't you guess why there is such a difference?
                Yes, and in addition: does the whole crowd of experts consider it the right state of affairs that 230 tons of water are wandering around the casemate deck, and couldn't it have been lowered down into the hold as they did on the Orel, even if it was done arbitrarily, but it should have been done under the control of some officer? Was the fight for survivability conducted correctly?
                1. +1
                  31 December 2024 17: 05
                  Quote: geniy
                  Oh my god! Finally someone responded!

                  You have a holiday, congratulations... Someone finally heeded your prayers and answered your rhetorical question

                  Quote: geniy
                  And could you tell me - is there also water from extinguishing fires on all the ships of Vitgeft's squadron?

                  Did the TOE-1 ships burn just as intensely?

                  Quote: geniy
                  And you all call this a struggle for survival?

                  This is ONE side of the struggle for survival...
                  There is also a second one - pumping out water.

                  Quote: geniy
                  And also - wouldn't you tell me - why did the Borodino people have such big fires that the water from extinguishing them flowed into the central casemate?

                  You have awesome logic... and the answer is classic.
                  Because gladiolus... (c)

                  Quote: geniy
                  Can you guess why there is such a difference?

                  You don't want to tell us, so we have no idea.
                  1. -1
                    31 December 2024 17: 28
                    Did the TOE-1 ships burn just as intensely?
                    But why didn’t the TOE-1 ships burn as intensely as the Borodinets of Rozhdestvensky’s squadron? You still can’t guess?
                    You don't want to tell us, so we have no idea.
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    Quote: geniy
                    Oh my god! Finally someone responded!

                    You have a holiday, congratulations... Someone finally heeded your prayers and answered your rhetorical question

                    Quote: geniy
                    And could you tell me - is there also water from extinguishing fires on all the ships of Vitgeft's squadron?

                    Did the TOE-1 ships burn just as intensely?

                    Quote: geniy
                    And you all call this a struggle for survival?

                    This is ONE side of the struggle for survival...
                    There is also a second one - pumping out water.

                    Quote: geniy
                    And also - wouldn't you tell me - why did the Borodino people have such big fires that the water from extinguishing them flowed into the central casemate?

                    You have awesome logic... and the answer is classic.
                    Because gladiolus... (c)

                    Quote: geniy
                    Can you guess why there is such a difference?

                    You don't want to tell us, so we have no idea.

                    Guys, on one of the previous threads, a Rurikovich replied to me that you have been revealing everything here for ten years already - so have you really not figured it out after all these years?
                    1. 0
                      31 December 2024 17: 47
                      Quote: geniy
                      Guys, on one of the previous threads, a Rurikovich replied to me that you have been revealing everything here for ten years already - so have you really not figured it out after all these years?

                      Well then, enlighten us, ignoramuses... laughing
                      1. -1
                        31 December 2024 17: 54
                        Well then, enlighten us, ignoramuses...

                        Well, yes, now on New Year's Eve I'll rush to write an article...
                        But perhaps I will say a few words: firstly - in mTsushima on all Borodinets boats were placed in № FLOOR on top of each other! and although they were all filled with water - but because of the fragments all the water leaked out and therefore on Borodinets boats burned with terrible fires - and on other ships there were no such fires! It was the scoundrel Rozhdestvensky who forbade the delivery of boats to transports. And I also think that the Japanese in Tsushima fired completely different shells than in the Yellow Sea. Perhaps in addition to pure shimoza, powdered aluminum was added to the new shells. Therefore, the temperature of the explosions of the new explosives was much higher than that of the old one...
                      2. +1
                        31 December 2024 18: 14
                        Quote: geniy
                        But perhaps I'll say a few words anyway

                        Wow, you rushed into an open door. :)
                        Only the lazy didn’t write about this 120 years ago.
                      3. -1
                        31 December 2024 18: 17
                        Wow, you rushed into an open door. :)
                        Only the lazy didn’t write about this 120 years ago.

                        I somehow didn't understand you. What exactly didn't the lazy one write about: about three-story boats or about shimoza with aluminum powder?
                      4. +1
                        31 December 2024 18: 18
                        Quote: geniy
                        I somehow didn't understand you.

                        They also wrote about three-story boats and some other explosive used in the shells.
                        Aluminum is nothing more than your imagination.
                      5. -1
                        31 December 2024 18: 31
                        They also wrote about three-story boats
                        Remind me - where exactly was this written?
                        And don't you and the entire community consider these 3-STORY boats a direct crime of Rozhdestvensky with this decision that destroyed the best ships of the squadron. And also the stupidity of Andrey from Chelyabinsk who does not mention this at all, but only about the shells?
                        They wrote... and about some other explosive used in shells.
                        So, so, so... So you, like me, think that in Tsushima the Japanese used some OTHER explosive (modified shimozu) in the shells?
                        But here the majority of false experts insist that there was supposedly no difference at all between the Japanese shells in the Yellow Sea and at Tsushima?
                        And if we agree with you, then it turns out that the technology was changed radically. And from this it follows that in the Japanese archives there should be tons of documents about this change. And every honest Japanese historian was obliged to write about it. But there are absolutely no documents about the change in technology at all? So - do you not agree that either there are secret departments in the Japanese archives, or the Japanese archives were plundered and there is nothing interesting there?
                    2. 0
                      31 December 2024 18: 27
                      Quote: geniy
                      that you've been revealing everything here for ten years now - so really, you haven't figured it out after all these years?
                      Well, not everyone is a genius lol we are trying to find out the reasons for defeat in the war in general and in individual battles in particular. But why does a particular ship have 200 tons of water on the casemate deck - we need to analyze the problems in battle for each individual ship. wink And this is not a single decade wassat And if the lost ships are subject to analysis, where there are survivors, then those that went to the bottom with the entire crew are already crossed out and go to the section of the possible, and not the true. And the water walking on the deck in the criterion for assessing the combat capability of the ship is equal to zero, if before that all its PUAO were destroyed by shells that do not penetrate armor and it, as a combat unit, no longer poses a threat to the enemy with its shooting in the milk...
                      1. -1
                        31 December 2024 18: 47
                        we are trying to find out the reasons for defeat in the war in general and in individual battles in particular. But why does a particular ship have 200 tons of water on the casemate deck - we need to analyze the problems in battle for each individual ship.

                        You see, it seems to me that one logical rule should apply here: if the IDENTICAL objects (and the 4 battleships of the Borodino type were practically identical) are affected in the IDENTICAL way (in relation to fires on the spar deck where the boats were located), then the result of this impact should be the IDENTICAL for all of them - water inside the casemate.
                        And the water walking on the deck in the criteria for assessing the combat capability of a ship is equal to zero, if before that all of its PUAO have been destroyed by shells that do not penetrate the armor and it, as a combat unit, no longer poses a threat to the enemy with its shooting into the milky way...
                        From
                        That's right - if most of you are only interested in the issue of artillery fire, then I, in contrast to you, am interested in the issue of the survivability of the ships - what did they sink from? And I don't give a damn whether they could shoot or not. According to my calculations, by 3 o'clock in the afternoon the Borodino men should have used up almost all their shells anyway and could only shoot VERY RARELY. So as combat units they ceased to exist not only because of the Japanese influence.
                        So none of you are interested in the topic of 200 tons of water in a walking casemate? Well, that's what I thought.
                      2. +1
                        31 December 2024 18: 55
                        So don't ask us questions, but answer your own. - why did our ships burn, that because of the fight against fires water accumulated on the casemate deck. It turns out that because of the enemy's impact there was no one to pour it into the lower compartments? Or because of the same impact at a certain point in time the pumps failed?
                        You accuse us of being such and such, and you are a genius. So tell us your point of view, and we will listen... Maybe, if it is logical and adequate, then we will agree with you... The thing is - put aside your arrogance and speak on the merits wink hi
                        You are our genius smile Or is it more difficult than blaming and slandering others???
                      3. -1
                        31 December 2024 19: 06
                        So don't ask us questions, but answer your own.

                        Why should I answer my questions? First, I need to find out the EXTENT OF YOUR IGNORANCE.
                        If I say that there are secret departments in the archives and everyone objects to me that there is nothing like that - then you supposedly know BETTER than me? Or about nutation and precession: does anyone of you know about this? After all, you all brazenly lie about what you know. And there are many other different topics and questions.
                        You accuse us of being such and such, and you are a genius. So tell us your point of view, and we will listen...

                        Yes, I would be glad to write - but the Topic is too voluminous - in fact, it would be necessary to write a new history of the Russian Navy at sea.
                      4. -1
                        31 December 2024 19: 29
                        that due to the firefighting, water accumulated on the casemate deck. It turns out that due to the enemy's impact, there was no one to pour it into the lower compartments? Or due to the same impact, at a certain point in time, the pumps failed??

                        No, the thing is that Rozhdestvensky paid more attention to the ceremonial part of the campaign, and he was not at all concerned with preparing the sailors for the fight for survivability.
                        p. 385 the commander initially resisted the removal of wood and furniture from the living quarters Jung gave in
                        Only the old ships Navarin and Nakhimov Donskoy have taken this path of furniture removal and wooden fixtures removal. On Suvorov and the other new battleships, all the officers' living quarters have been preserved in complete integrity.
                        At the last meeting the question of ... removing all boats and wooden boats from the rostra was raised again; Commander Jung agreed with the need... but this could only be done by order of the commander.
                        Removing the boats and launches immediately lightens the ship by 100 tons, located approximately 40 feet 12 meters above the center of gravity. which will immediately increase the metacentric height by 3 inches 76 mm...
                        And it was very easy to remove water from the casemate - and no pumps were needed for this - because it would flow DOWN BY GRADUALITY. Only this had to be done GRADUALLY. That is, an order from some petty officer - a midshipman - was enough and that was it! The Borodino battleships would have stayed afloat! But Rozhdestvensky did not prepare the Sailors for the struggle for survivability.
                      5. +3
                        31 December 2024 20: 07
                        Well, now it's more fun. smile But a small nuance - okay, you can believe someone that Rozhdestvensky himself ordered not to remove the boats. BUT the fight for survivability is under the priority of the ship's commander. Therefore, whether to drain the water or not on each individual ship is decided by the officer on this ship. No need to hang all the flies on Rozhdestvensky. I am not defending him, but speaking to the point. So, if we follow logic, and not your attitude to Rozhdestvensky, all ship commanders should have been written off for professional incompetence. Or are external objective factors to blame, such as the impact of Japanese land mines at long ranges, mowing down the crew and puncturing the superstructure and unarmored parts of the sides, causing fires and disabling equipment??? Which, with prolonged exposure, causes a cumulative effect and disables the ship. And 7 hours of combat is not 2 hours in total at Shantung. Here quantity turns into quality, which is proven by history. So there is no need to go to extremes and prove that Rozhdestvensky's failure and Tsushima might not have happened. No matter how good or bad the "Borodinites" were, they actually received much more than the Arthurians in the Yellow Sea. And even if the midshipmen (according to you) would have dumped water into the lower reaches, they, as combat units, even without penetrating the armor belt, after 2 hours of combat became zeros as the fire was transferred. So don't stretch an owl onto a globe - it is not only Rozhdestvensky who is to blame (which you and several other "comrades" are trying to foist off), but a combination of factors that led to the fact that the Russian fleet turned out to be weaker in all respects - speed, armament, training, quality of the PUAO...
                        You just can't accept reality. Yes request
              2. +1
                31 December 2024 17: 07
                Quote: clou
                Water flowed from above from extinguishing fires. What a binomial theorem and why spread this question over ten posts?

                This is a local expert on everything, who knows all the secrets, but is afraid to reveal the secrets of 120 years ago....
                This is his usual state.
                1. -1
                  31 December 2024 17: 36
                  This is a local expert on everything, who knows all the secrets, but is afraid to reveal the secrets of 120 years ago....

                  But here we must first understand: are there any secrets from the times of the RYaV hidden in the archives - or are there no secrets at all? So there is nothing to reveal... I personally believe that there are many undisclosed secrets in the military archives, but there are absolutely secret sections of the archives that no one is allowed into.
                  And the local lobby assures that everything is open and there are no secret departments. So is it worth revealing any secrets to you?
                  1. +1
                    31 December 2024 17: 48
                    Quote: geniy
                    So should I reveal any secrets to you?

                    So you can decide whether there are secrets or not... :)
                    1. -1
                      31 December 2024 18: 01
                      So you can decide whether there are secrets or not... :)

                      What do you all think: are there secrets or not?
                      Let me remind you that Japan was a very closed country in terms of military secrets. That is, everything that came to it from outside, from other countries, was perceived well. But military secrets leaked out of Japan badly. And that was the case until WWII. And then the war, Japan was defeated and the Americans robbed all Japanese military archives. So you can go into a Japanese military archive - and you won't see anything there. Do you agree with this or not?
    3. 0
      31 December 2024 16: 57
      Quote: geniy
      And explain: why did Borodino explode - after all, Japanese shells could not penetrate the armor of its turrets?

      It could have been the ignition of the first shots, like on the Orel. By the way, the Suvorov's turret was also blown apart.
      1. -1
        31 December 2024 17: 23
        It could have been the ignition of the first shots, like on the Orel. By the way, the Suvorov's turret was also blown apart.

        This answer demonstrates the public's misunderstanding of what actually happened. Because when the powder charges of the first shots ignite, there is no explosion - but a very intense fire of gunpowder with a fire force upwards of tens or even hundreds of meters. Orel's TWO medium-caliber turrets burned - but neither exploded.
        In fact, Suvorov probably fired prematurely: that is, the gun lock was pushed all the way in, but not turned so that it would catch on the rifling - and this caused the gun to fire into the turret.
        But notice - neither Orel nor Suvorov had fire penetrated inside the magazine of the BC and there was no explosion of the magazines, but Borodino had an explosion of the magazine of the BC - do you have any idea why this happened? That is, I will clarify the question: Do you really think that the shell from Fuji dove under the Waterline by about 5 meters and hit Borodino's magazine directly?
        1. 0
          1 January 2025 10: 21
          Quote: geniy
          and they didn't have an explosion of the cellars, but at Borodino there was an explosion of the BK cellar

          Firstly, this could happen someday, and secondly, Borodino also had a fire at first.
          At 19:00, the battleship was hit by two 12" shells from the battleship Shikishima, after which the flames from the aft battery rose 10 meters above the upper deck and quickly began to spread. The aft turret fell silent.

          At 19:10-19:12 the last 12" shell from the bow turret of the Japanese battleship Fuji exploded near the starboard stern 6" turret of the Borodino. A column of flame and smoke rose to the height of the smokestacks. The battleship was enveloped in clouds of smoke and steam. The fires got out of control. Suddenly the battleship fell onto its starboard side, capsized and soon sank.
    4. +1
      31 December 2024 17: 36
      Quote: geniy
      And explain: why did Borodino explode?

      Why did you decide that "Borodino" exploded?
      The author of the lines below was in the conning tower of the Orel, several hundred meters from Borodino.
      Do you see him mentioning the Borodino explosion?
      1. -1
        31 December 2024 17: 44
        Why did you decide that "Borodino" exploded?
        The author of the lines below was in the conning tower of the Orel, several hundred meters from Borodino.
        Do you see him mentioning the Borodino explosion?

        Because Borodino had a weak explosion. It wasn't the magazine of the 12-inch turret that exploded like the ships in Jutland, but only the 152-mm turret, which had weak gunpowder charges.
        Otherwise - if there had been no explosion in the magazines - then why did Borodino capsize? It is clear that an internal explosion tore the bottom on the right side - that is why it listed to the right.
        1. +1
          31 December 2024 18: 32
          Quote: geniy
          Because Borodino had a weak explosion.

          Did you personally see this explosion?
          then why did Borodino capsize?

          What don’t you like about the classic version voiced by Krylov, Matrosov, Kostenko and Muru?
          1. -1
            31 December 2024 18: 57
            Did you personally see this explosion?

            if you hit an egg with a hammer - do you need to see it with your own eyes to understand what happened? A smart person will understand. But here is a quote from their magazine Gangut No. 2 from Gribovsky's article squadron battleships of the Borodino type from page 40: "the shell hit ... Borodino and obviously caused an explosion of ammunition ... fire and smoke rose to the height of the smokestacks ...
            Maybe you think that this FIRE AND SMOKE were just a sign of a Japanese shell exploding? But I am personally sure that fire and smoke up to such a height is a clear sign of a 6-inch ammunition magazine exploding.




            Borodino
            1. +1
              31 December 2024 19: 02
              Quote: geniy
              from Gribovsky's article

              Gribovsky was also not present at the Battle of Tsushima...

              fire and smoke rose to the height of the chimneys

              A typical big fire...
              1. -1
                31 December 2024 19: 47
                rytik32
                fire and smoke rose to the height of the chimneys
                A typical big fire...
                A large fire does not start in one second and a fire does not cause a ship to capsize instantly.
                But the explosion of the cellars instantly throws out a column of fire and smoke and sinks any ship.
                1. +1
                  31 December 2024 19: 53
                  Quote: geniy
                  A big fire doesn't start in one second.

                  So, at Borodino, the fire did not break out immediately.
                  does not cause the ship to capsize immediately

                  Loss of stability causes instant capsizing
                  1. -1
                    31 December 2024 20: 10
                    rytik32

                    [quote][quote] The fire at Borodino did not break out immediately either.
                    [/quote][/quote
                    and prove that there was supposedly a LONG big fire on Borodino before its destruction
                    [quote] Loss of stability causes instant capsizing[/quote] And why would Borodino lose stability, you might ask?
                    1. 0
                      31 December 2024 20: 18
                      Quote: geniy
                      and prove that there was supposedly a LONG big fire on Borodino before its destruction

                      Read https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/71121.html
                      And why would Borodino lose stability, you might ask?

                      I have already given you a list of authors to read.
          2. -1
            31 December 2024 19: 43
            What don’t you like about the classic version voiced by Krylov, Matrosov, Kostenko and Muru?
            I can't immediately recall the versions of Krylov, Matrosov and Mura, but they are probably not too different from Kostenko's version. As far as I remember, he believed that the Borodino-type battleships had insufficient stability. But in fact, they even had a slightly NEGATIVE metacentric height! But this was easy to fix: if several hundred tons of water were to be taken into the double bottom, the metacentric height would immediately DOUBLE! But no one bothered with this at all, although any midshipman could do it on his own in one minute...
        2. +2
          31 December 2024 19: 07
          Quote: geniy
          Because Borodino had a weak explosion.
          belay what
          "- Do you see a gopher?
          - No...
          - And neither do I. But he is..."
  22. -2
    31 December 2024 13: 03
    The best way to win in the RYaV was to shoot Nikolashka along with his Abaza-Bezobrazovskaya clique.
    The funds had to be directed towards education in the technical field, the purchase of technologies, the recruitment of engineers and the development of productive forces.
    The most interesting thing is that history then repeated itself - the army bled to death due to a lack of technical resources, primarily heavy artillery and motor transport, and shipyards continued to utilize valuable resources.
  23. -1
    31 December 2024 13: 15
    Quote: TermNachTER
    I would like to note that Russia is now fighting alone against the collective West.

    Yes, it is fighting - it has increased gas pumping to Europe. https://ria.ru/20241225/gaz-1991129036.html
    How come your fingers haven't dried up from typing this nonsense? Who do you think these people are?
  24. +1
    31 December 2024 13: 19
    Thank you very much for the series of non-standard and extremely interesting articles, supported by mathematical apparatus!
    We are looking forward to the release of your book on fuses and shells from the Russo-Japanese War!
    Holiday greetings !!! drinks
    1. +1
      31 December 2024 14: 39
      Good day and happy holiday! Happy upcoming holiday to you too, and thank you for your kind words!
  25. +2
    31 December 2024 15: 39
    Quote: Jura 27
    It was entirely possible to replace the Varyag and Bayan with two EBRs, transferring money from other ships that had not yet been built. And then six 18-knot ships versus six.

    The admirals asked for them, the 6 thousandth built is a failure of the concept. Too expensive for mass production, too weak and unprotected in combat with an equal enemy. In fact, it would suit the British as a trade guard, but the Russian Empire had nothing to guard.
    In the current conditions, the Slava's bookmark was superfluous. It was categorically not in time for the war. But 14 million would not have been superfluous.
    Now they are also churning out "Yasens" and "Boreys" without modern torpedoes, anti-torpedo systems and other important things that are not visible at the parade, lest the ships named "Generalissimo Suvorov" and "Alexander 3rd" repeat the fate of their predecessors.
  26. +1
    31 December 2024 22: 47
    I agree with almost all of the author’s conclusions, with the exception of minor details, which are discussed below.

    At the same time, I would like to note that in the construction of the Navy, the inconsistent, sometimes frankly illiterate technical policy and attempts to give "more projects to the god of projects" were observed not only in the years preceding the Russo-Japanese War - but have simply permanently haunted the Navy for the past 150 years, no less.

    I agree with the author that the lack of necessary ship repair facilities in the Far East automatically meant that our squadrons in the Far East could not even hope for a comparable speed in battles with enemy squadrons. But in addition to problems with ship repair, trivial errors in the design and construction of RIF ships led to the lag. A simple illustrative example with the cruiser "Pallada", which after being raised, repaired and introduced into the Japanese fleet as "Tsugaru" the speed during trials increased from 19,17 knots to 21,85 knots.

    Domestic savings on the quality and/or range of ammunition, attempts to "pull out" on morally obsolete ammunition, again, are not a feature of the Russo-Japanese War, they are inherent in our military construction permanently, and are characteristic not only of the Navy, but also of other types of the Armed Forces. A simple illustrative example from, so to speak, "today": our frontline aviation still widely uses the M-54 family of high-drag aerial bombs, developed at the turn of the 50s of the 20th century for suspension in the internal bomb bays of subsonic bombers. And if we recall the oldest of the rifle-machine gun cartridges still in service with the world's armed forces, the 7,62x54...

    Therefore, within the framework of mentioning mere trifles in which I disagree with the author, I note that by the beginning of the 20th century wet pyroxylin was already an obsolete explosive. Specialists understood this. For example, I will quote Ipatyev V.N. "The Life of a Chemist. Memories":

    "Captain Maksimov was very friendly with me and consulted me on all chemical issues... He was the first to come up with the idea of ​​introducing compounds for loading shells that, while possessing sufficient detonating properties, would not explode when passing through solid barriers. For example, an armor-piercing shell loaded with such an explosive should penetrate the armor and then explode from the action of the detonator located in the shock tube. He shared this idea with me and suggested that we work on its implementation together. I readily agreed to this joint work, and began to study in the laboratory various combinations of aromatic nitro compounds with picric acid trinitrocresol and not only to study their suitability from a physicochemical point of view, but also to study their explosive properties in explosions in the Sarro and Vielle bomb. After a year of work, the data obtained were reported to the Commission, and it was decided to conduct experiments on loading shells with the planned explosives. After Maksimov's death, which occurred at the beginning of 1898, such combinations of nitro compounds found wide application in shell loading, and my student at the Academy, Captain A. A. Dzerzhkovich, who took Maksimov's place, successfully continued to develop this issue."

    But decisions on funding were NOT made by specialists, and ammunition so-called "R&D", both in the military and in the naval departments, was extremely poorly funded in the 1890s and early 1900s.

    Another small thing on which I disagree with the author is the Brink fuse. The fuse was poorly designed. The design flaws were aggravated by the fact that during the production process, the fuse, which was already structurally insensitive, received a softer aluminum striker than the one with which the fuse was initially tested.

    Unfortunately, the variant of Filimonov's bottom detonator with an intermediate detonator:

    “In 1890, for the final loading of shells with wet pyroxylin, Lieutenant Colonel Filimonov equipped his tube with a fuse glass with a detonator made of dry pyroxylin, i.e., essentially creating the first fuse for pyroxylin shells.”

    For reasons unknown to me, it was not adopted by either the military or naval departments in the early 1890s, and unlike the military department, the naval department had only one fuse for pyroxylin shells by the start of the Russo-Japanese War - the Brink. This, in particular, led to the fact that the RIF did not have shells with pyroxylin filling for either the 120 mm Kane gun, or even less so for the 75 mm Kane gun.

    However, the actual absence of 12" shells with pyroxylin filling is even more glaring than the absence of 120 mm and 75 mm shells with pyroxylin filling. But the fact that the cruiser Novik was doomed in its battle with the cruiser Tsushima, just as all our counter-destroyers were doomed in battles with Japanese counter-destroyers, was predetermined precisely by the fact that during the Russo-Japanese War the RIF had neither 120 mm nor 75 mm shells with explosive charges of high explosive.

    I agree with the author that the lack of necessary ship repair capacities in the Far East most likely technically predetermined the defeat of the RIF in the Russo-Japanese war at sea, but the fact that this defeat turned out to be devastating, without a single victory in naval artillery battles, was predetermined precisely by the morally obsolete ammunition of the RIF naval artillery, in whose arsenal the enemy had no modern high-explosive shells with a high filling factor of high explosives as a class.
  27. +3
    31 December 2024 23: 22
    Therefore, the true and key reason for the loss of the Russo-Japanese War at sea, in my humble opinion, should be considered the discrepancy between the economy of the Russian Empire and the political tasks that it set for itself.

    Agree to 1000%.
    1. +2
      31 December 2024 23: 57
      Quote: Grossvater
      Agree to 1000%

      The problem is that the economy of the Meiji Mikado Empire was even weaker.

      However, the high-explosive shells and Ijuin fuses for them used by Japanese sailors turned out to be the best in the world at that time.

      At that time, the British had high-explosive lyddite shells with a head fuse using a gunpowder petard - 100% incomplete detonation of the explosive charge.

      The French had melinite shells with cast iron bodies, they were fired using reduced powder charges, neither flatness nor range.

      The French again had fuses with gunpowder petards ("Armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of the French naval artillery were filled with melinite, but to detonate the latter, a black powder charge weighing from 3 to 6 g was used, pressed with a channel along the axis under pressure from 500 to 1000 kg/cm2. The shells were equipped with bottom shock tubes with ordinary cap-igniters"), as a consequence, also incomplete detonation of the charge of high explosive.

      It is not necessary to have the best economy in the world to at least temporarily have the best high-explosive shells in the world. You just need to set your priorities correctly. The naval department did not know how to do this.

      Eliza Balletta probably cost an order of magnitude more than all the work on new naval artillery ammunition in the decade preceding the Russo-Japanese War.
      1. 0
        1 January 2025 11: 07
        Quote: AlexanderA
        However, the Japanese sailors' high-explosive shells and Ijuin fuses for them turned out to be the best in the world at that time.

        The Ijuin inertia fuse is not the best choice for high-explosive shells. Often, the shells exploded on impact before the fuse worked. For high-explosive shells, a reaction fuse is better. And the inertia fuse is more suitable for semi-armor-piercing shells.

        Now about the Japanese shells. You will compare the sizes of the holes in the Japanese, English and French shells. And after that it will be clear whose were better.
        1. +1
          1 January 2025 12: 16
          Quote: rytik32
          The Ijuin inertia fuse is not the best choice for high explosive shells. Often the shells exploded on impact before the fuse could be triggered. A reaction fuse is better for high explosive shells.

          Undoubtedly. This is most likely the reason why Japanese shells with a caliber of 6" and above often did not break through even the thin armor of the roofs of the turrets of Russian ships with an explosion. Premature rupture of the explosive charge initiated not by the detonator of the fuse, but by the impact. As a result, incomplete detonation of the charge and the absence of breaches even in such thin armor. But here, most likely, not even the problem of the inertial (bottom) fuse, but NOT phlegmatized explosive. At the beginning of the century, only the first attempts were observed to use phlegmatized explosives based on trinitrophenol for equipping artillery ammunition, the same American "maximite". On the other hand, Idzyuin fuses were already equipped with a detonator of sufficient power, while the lyddite / melinite high-explosive shells used at that time in the British and French fleets were equipped with fuses, albeit head ones, but with gunpowder petards - which led to incomplete detonation of explosive charges. these shells. At that time, the only American fuses with safety (or semi-safety) type and detonators were probably better than the Idzyuin fuse, but it seems that since 1903, these fuses were most likely only used in serial production for American coastal artillery shells loaded with Maximit explosives.

          The disadvantages of the Brink fuse are known: Insufficient sensitivity of the fuse, aggravated in production by the fact that the aluminum striker with a blunt striker became softer during serial production of the fuse than the version that was used in test firing during the development of the fuse. The absence of a pyrotechnic retarder. Insufficient mass of explosive (45 grams of dry pyroxylin) in the intermediate detonator. American experiments in the 1890s showed that for reliable detonation of charges of wet pyroxylin > 15% humidity, an intermediate detonator with a mass of high explosive of ~ 90 grams or more is required. Insufficient strength of the thin-walled brass sleeve with an intermediate detonator that was threaded to the main body of the fuse. The dimensions of the fuse did not allow this fuse to be equipped with 120 mm and 75 mm steel shells of Canet guns.

          The Japanese fleet received the 76 mm high-explosive shell with "shimoza" after the war began. The Japanese field artillery also had a 76 mm high-explosive shell with similar equipment. The domestic 76 mm melinite shell for field guns developed by Rdultovsky actually did not have time to participate in the Russo-Japanese War.
          Now about the Japanese shells. You will compare the sizes of the holes in the Japanese, English and French shells. And after that it will be clear whose were better.

          I will quote the same Rdultovsky: “When the projectile falls, the resistance of the obstacle forces the striker 4 to cut the pin 3 and break the cap 2, which leads to the ignition of the firecracker 7 made of black powder and the ignition of the detonating mixture.
          With this method of detonation, lyddite shells almost never gave a full detonation.; in most cases they produced incomplete explosions with the release of yellow smoke. But this allowed the British to avoid the use of mercury fulminate caps, which they considered dangerous to fire."

          The French navy's melinite shells had a similar "detonation method" at the time.

          And yes, did the British have 12" high-explosive shells with lyddite back then? I think they had a maximum of 9,2" shells with lyddite back then. The French used cast iron casings and reduced powder charges for melinite high-explosive shells.

          Thus, in 1904-1905, in the matter of arming their naval artillery of all significant calibers with steel high-explosive shells with a high coefficient of filling with high-explosive explosive (which was even NOT phlegmatized trinitrophenol) and equipping these shells with sensitive bottom impact fuses with sufficiently powerful intermediate detonators, the Japanese were "ahead of the rest of the world."
      2. 0
        1 January 2025 14: 12
        Quote: AlexanderA
        Eliza Balletta probably cost an order of magnitude more than all the work on new naval artillery ammunition in the decade preceding the Russo-Japanese War.

        There won't be a war. We'll demonstrate the flag and the macaques will be afraid to fight.
  28. +1
    1 January 2025 01: 24
    Quote: AlexanderA
    The problem is that the economy of the Meiji Mikado Empire was even weaker.

    But no. Japan shook a huge contribution from China, and the loans with which China paid Japan were guaranteed by Russia. That's the paradox.
    Secondly, and this is the main and probably the most important thing, Japan was seriously preparing for war.
    In addition, the distance factor must be taken into account. Russia, having built a shipbuilding and ship repair base in the European part, needed to duplicate it in the Far East.
    In general, I can’t help but think about the initial meaninglessness of everything that happened.
    All the fuss was initially caused by the entry of cheap Australian and Canadian grain into the world grain market. In order to compete with the new players, it was necessary to ensure cheap, unimpeded export of domestic grain, primarily from the populated and developed Siberia.
    Vladivostok is a freezing port. So we went where it was warmer.
    Japan was not taken seriously at first.
    On top of this was the desire, not least of all of the imperial family, to get their hands on something.
    So, the thesis of the respected author about the disproportion between possibilities and desires, primarily relates to political goal-setting.
    Having abandoned "Yellow Russia", it would have been possible to settle down quite calmly in the first ice-free port in the North of Korea and maintain traditionally friendly relations with Japan.
    1. 0
      1 January 2025 13: 24
      Quote: Grossvater
      But no. Japan shook a huge contribution from China, and the loans with which China paid Japan were guaranteed by Russia. That's the paradox.

      "Some difficulties of the Japanese economy by 1905:

      Lack of own heavy industry. There was no metallurgical production or mechanical engineering. 1
      Low technical level of production. Small-scale production and craft workshops prevailed in the country. 12
      High land tax. It amounted to about 50% of the peasant's income and left consumer demand within the country at an unacceptable level. 2
      Heavy dependence on imported industrial equipment. It was needed to build railways, factories, mines and shipyards. 5
      Low wages. They were not enough for one person to live on, let alone support a family. 12
      In addition, the Japanese economy was exhausted by the war with the Russian Empire. The Japanese military expenditures reached 1,83 billion yen, which in 1903 was equal to 68% of Japan's GNP. Financing was mainly provided by the issue of government bonds, as a result of which the government debt as a share of GNP increased from the pre-war 23% to 70%.
      Quote: Grossvater
      Secondly, and this is the main and probably the most important thing, Japan was seriously preparing for war.

      That is, the main reason for the defeat of the Russian Empire in the Russo-Japanese War was not that the Russian economy was weaker than the Japanese economy, but that for the Mikado Empire and Korea it was an existential war, while for the Russian Empire it was a limited war in a remote theater of military operations, for which the Russian Empire prepared half-heartedly?

      Certain historical parallels with today are visible. Russia and Bandera's Ukraine are locked in an existential war. And for the US, this is a proxy war in a distant overseas theater of military operations, which they still do not want to lose.

      Or will you fight for the thesis: "By 1904, the economy of the Russian Empire was weaker than the economy of the Japanese Empire"?
      Having abandoned "Yellow Russia", it would have been possible to settle down quite calmly in the first ice-free port in the North of Korea and maintain traditionally friendly relations with Japan.

      That is, in your opinion, it was necessary not to participate in the “Triple Intervention” of 1895, when Russia, Germany and France forced Japan to abandon the annexation of the Liaodong Peninsula, and to refuse to conclude an alliance treaty between Russia and China in 1896?

      The problem is that the clash of interests between Russia and Japan in this region was inevitable one way or another. The young predator, who had recently emerged from feudalism, began his expansion to the continent very zealously as part of the beginning of the struggle for what was later called the "Greater East Asian Sphere of Co-Prosperity". As is known, later the Japanese expansion had to be stopped by the USA, albeit with the allied British and Soviet help.

      As it turned out after the results of this chapter, the formation of a tradition of long-term friendly relations (sovereign and vassal) is greatly facilitated if the Japanese are beaten well beforehand (you can even drop two atomic bombs). And the Japanese are still demanding something from us, in the sense of the southern part of the Kuril Islands.
  29. 0
    1 January 2025 01: 33
    Dear Andrew!
    Thank you very much for the titanic work you have done. I remind you that you promised to think about preparing the article series for downloading.
    Happy New Year!
    1. +1
      2 January 2025 12: 54
      Good day, dear Alexey! Happy New Year to you! drinks
      Yes, it happened. If I have time, I will definitely do it, besides, it will be useful to update my skills of uploading a book to samizdat
  30. +2
    1 January 2025 19: 07
    Thank you very much for the Cycle, and even with applications, deeply respected Andrey!
    It is written thoroughly and very interestingly.
    1. +2
      2 January 2025 12: 48
      Dear Valentin, Happy New Year to you!
      Thank you for your rating:))))) drinks
      1. 0
        3 January 2025 03: 45
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Dear Valentin, Happy New Year to you!

        Thank you, dear Andrey, and you too!

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thank you for your rating:))))) drinks

        Thank you for your work! The work is extensive, painstaking, and very impressive.
  31. -1
    3 January 2025 02: 01
    In general, the only chance was to prevent the war. There was no need to withdraw Nakhimov, Navarin and Sisoes from the Far East. And then drive Oslyabya out. Maybe they would have been scared, but would not have risked it.
  32. -1
    4 January 2025 15: 36
    They live in a country without a sea, and that is probably why I was interested in the Battle of Sevastopol and the subsequent Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05. Russia was able to win the war tactically thanks to the heroic actions of soldiers and generals, but the country's economy collapsed. That is why I first read the ballet about the war, and then tried to at least understand it. I still could not understand why the Russian fleet lost the battle. I really do not like to return to the country's economy, the author hinted at this here. All my life I have been on the side of Russian soldiers, the Russian army. Assessment of the "post-war period": here an educated historian can adjust the facts according to his needs. However, I still believe that Russia did not lose, the Russian army, on the contrary, demonstrated feats and we once again encountered service incompetence, logistics and ignorance and caution of responsible admirals. However, I will still stand and defend the Russian army and navy. I am also glad that I was able to read here, even if I did not use everything, I learned a lesson. Thank you,. am
  33. 0
    4 January 2025 16: 10
    The problem with explosives and fuses for armor-piercing shells is as simple as three kopecks: there simply wasn't enough production capacity. Well, the Russian Empire didn't have such a developed chemical industry to ensure sufficient volumes of pyroxylin production. Moreover, the ground army's ammunition also had to be loaded with something. The chemical industry was so "highly developed" that it couldn't produce the required amount of pyroxylin.
    And the production of more advanced fuses turned out to be an extremely difficult task for the semi-artisanal instrument-making industry.
    1. +1
      5 January 2025 19: 39
      Quote: Tank DestroyerSU-100
      Well, the Russian Empire did not have such a developed chemical industry to ensure sufficient volumes of pyroxylin production.

      The pyroxylin plant operated on a single shift basis, as far as I know.
  34. 0
    16 January 2025 19: 06
    Maybe I'm wrong, but in the series of articles one question remained unanswered: how does the "Makarovsky cap" work? The respected author quite convincingly rejected the option with soft viscous steel, so what then?