The buzz around the Su-57M: and kiss it on the… nozzle!

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The buzz around the Su-57M: and kiss it on the… nozzle!

The show that started in Zhuhang is not going away, and perhaps that is a good thing. The Russian "criminal" has been in the shadows for quite a long time, so now it will not hurt at all to bask in the rays of attention of experts and the press from all over the world.

Basically, that's all story The Su-57 looks quite decent in the sense that there was no crazy PR like with the F-22, there were no promises of a super-aircraft like with the F-35, and there were no disappointments associated with the declared characteristics not corresponding to what actually happened.



And there was nothing like that about the Su-57, there is nothing to reproach. They wanted to sell it, but there were not many buyers, because the plane did not go into large-scale production for the VKS, and the world does not like such situations since the mega-deception with the F-104 Starfighter. And then India fled the joint project...

They built for themselves, refined, licked, created new and adapted old types of weapons. They developed methods of use, studied combat capabilities in various conditions.

And let's not forget about the stream of criticism that from time to time poured out on the Su-57 from the West. Mostly it concerned its stealth, this fetish of modernity on that side of the world. In fact, stealth and secrecy are useful, but it should not be elevated to a cult. The same F-35, if detected by fighters of other countries, despite all its stealth, will be doomed, since its speed will not allow it to escape pursuit, including fourth-generation fighters. And what is most offensive for an American is that these may not only be Russian fighters.

So when images of the Su-57 appeared, equipped with a new type of engine nozzle with controlled thrust vectoring, American experts and "experts" (there are plenty of those there too), to put it mildly, soared and flew a little. Approximately to the orbit of Mars or a little further.

"Mantis":
What happened to all those Russian fans who kept saying that 3D targeting is the best targeting and that super-maneuverable fighters are the kings of the battlefield?

All this maneuverability seems to be the focus in Ukraine. Right after electronics, speed, payload, armament...

Gray Buckleton:
Well, yes and no. Have you listened to the tapes of that Su-34 pilot dodging Patriots? He must have used all of his maneuverability. And we gave the F-22 thrust vectoring for the same reasons the Russians did. Ukraine is not a true air battle. It's more of an asymmetric GBAD...

Yes, until recently everything looked like this: American fighters are about stealth, Russian ones – about speed and maneuverability. It is clear that stealth is an advanced option, and speed and maneuverability are for those who could not progress.

And seeing that the Russians can do it not just in stealth, but also in an original (one of The War Zone readers put it this way: perverted) way, spoiled the mood of many.

The radical-looking exhaust design is intended to improve the Su-57's stealth, although the future of the new nozzle is far from clear. But it is there, which gives the Americans some pretty decent food for thought.

The video and photographs show the rear of the second flying prototype of the Su-57, the T-50-2, which first flew in March 2011. Subsequently, after fulfilling its program, it was this example that was used to test the improved AL-51F-1 turbofan engine (also known as "Item 30"), which first flew in December 2017. At that time, the aircraft was equipped with only one of the engines, along with one of the original AL-41F-1s.

What is notable about the new generation turbofan engine installed in the left nacelle of the T-50-2 is its nozzle, which is an example of the new flat version intended to power the AL-51F1 when it is installed on an improved version of the Su-57M fighter.


Another view of the flat version of the nozzle for the AL-51F1 (in the left engine nacelle) next to the original version (in the right nacelle).

The AL-51F-1 was developed as a "clean" design, intended to provide more thrust, less weight, and lower operating costs than the previous AL-41F-1 engine. Another shortcoming of the earlier engine is its inability to provide the Su-57 with "supercruise" - flight at speeds greater than Mach 1,0 for extended periods without the use of afterburners.

At this point, it is worth paying attention to the AL-41F-1, the original engine for the basic model Su-57, and its nozzle configuration. This turbofan engine is also used in a simplified form in the Su-35 multirole fighter. The AL-41F-1 (also known as "Item 117") was created by upgrading the AL-31F engine, which was used in the earlier Su-27 and Su-30 fighters.


Su-35 and Su-57 aircraft at the air show in Akhtubinsk, dedicated to the 95th anniversary of the establishment of the flight test center of the Russian Ministry of Defense. Photo: AP

The AL-41F-1 engines installed on the Su-57 and Su-35 use a nozzle with a controlled thrust vector of an axisymmetric type. This is also known as three-dimensional thrust vector control and provides control in pitch, yaw and roll. Note that this is not yet available to American manufacturers, because the most advanced US aircraft have control only in the vertical direction, and not at the same angles as Russian ones.

In its original form, the AL-51F-1 also has a three-dimensional nozzle attachment for thrust vectoring, but the new images show an alternative attachment, this time of a two-dimensional type, that provides pitch control as well as limited roll control when asymmetrically engaged. It is unclear whether the angled attachment of the attachment is intended to provide additional roll control, and there is no data on this subject, only personal speculation.


The original thrust vectoring nozzle for the Su-57, top view, compared to the new XNUMXD nozzle, bottom view.

This type of low-observable "flat" engine nozzle shape is also used, for example, on the F-22 Raptor and is primarily intended to reduce radar signature compared to an axisymmetric nozzle design. It also provides advantages in the infrared range.


A close-up of the F-22's distinctive vectored exhaust nozzles in action. Their unique "hemispherical design" increases the F-22's stealth, even when viewed from the rear. It is said that even the F-35 can't match the F-22's stealth when viewed from the rear.

According to Evgeny Marchukov, general director of the Arkhip Lyulka Design Bureau responsible for the AL-51F-1, in comments published by Aviation Week, Sukhoi was not interested in using a flat nozzle for the Su-57 when the program was launched. Only later, after the Su-57 and AL-51F-1 had been tested, was a new XNUMXD nozzle ordered.

Since Sukhoi "resists changes to the airframe itself," which is generally understandable, the principle of "don't interfere with the plane's flight," Marchukov explained: "That's why we came up with a rather complex flat nozzle attachment."

As the diagram below shows, the nozzle has four independently controlled flaps that work by changing the cross-section of the exhaust air and the thrust vector. Of these flaps, which are set at an angle, two are reportedly designed for subsonic use and two for supersonic flight. The images also show that the wing guides are ventilated, which, combined with the air being forced through these areas, would help cool the exhaust gases and reduce the aircraft's infrared signature.


Two diagrams of the new nozzle from the company's official website

Speaking in the summer of 2023, Marchukov confirmed that the new nozzle chamber had been successfully tested on a ground stand, including with afterburner. He added that the first flight was expected before the end of 2023, although there is no information that this actually happened.

For the Su-57, a flat nozzle section would bring noticeable advantages in terms of lowering the signature from the rear. The original Su-57 design optimized low signature from the front, paying less attention to the sides and rear. At the same time, the modified nozzles will reduce thrust to some extent, but this is clearly considered a justifiable disadvantage given the improved stealth characteristics that are so necessary for this type of aircraft.

It is also worth noting that a different flat nozzle design was developed for the AL-41F-1 engine version used in the Sukhoi S-70 Okhotnik heavy subsonic unmanned combat aircraft. In this case, the two-dimensional nozzle is designed to reduce infrared and radar signature, but it is much simpler and does not have thrust vector controls, which is generally logical for an unmanned aircraft.


The first flight of the Okhotnik took place with an intermediate engine with a standard round nozzle, but the second aircraft, which was unveiled in December 2021, was equipped with an improved nozzle tip, which can be described as unobtrusive.


As for the AL-51F-1 version with a flat nozzle, its future largely depends on the future of the proposed Su-57M. There is a lot that is unclear to the Western reader, but over time everything will become more or less clear to them what will follow and why.

Work on this improved version of the Su-57, which was actually the serial version according to the project, was already actively underway when the Su-57 was launched into production and entered service. True, not with the AL-51F-1, but with the previous generation engine, the AL-41F. And now that same model with the AL-51F-1 engine will become a modernization of the Su-57M. Well, it's a bit confusing, but what can you do. But it flies, and the way we need it.

In the West, they complain that only 76 copies of the aircraft were manufactured/ordered, which is very little, and it is not a fact that the Su-57 has room for further development.

But it is not visible there, here, in Russia, everything looks simpler: there is a new engine (and who will say that the AL-51F is old) - there is a modernization of the aircraft. There is a path for further development. From the point of view of Russia, everything looks very logical and natural. In the West, everything may be seen in a slightly different light, but here, to each his own.

In fact, despite what the US believes, official work on the “modernized” Su-57M began when Sukhoi received a contract from the Russian Defense Ministry to build the aircraft for the Aerospace Forces in October 2018. At one point, there were reports that the T-50M prototype would begin flight testing in mid-2022, with serial production to begin by the end of 2024.

Obviously, these goals were not achieved, but here it is a question of time, which, oddly enough, plays into Russia's hands. The exhibition in China attracted unprecedented interest to the aircraft, which, we note, was more than deserved, since the Su-57, although produced in small quantities, is used in real combat conflicts much more extensively than all the world's fifth-generation fighters. That is, Chinese and American.

Considering that China, if it sells its planes, will not sell them to everyone, and not every country can afford American ones, the Su-57 has export potential. Sanctions from the US are, of course, serious, but planes are planes, and they, as we know, should be the first thing.

Export orders will be able to greatly accelerate mass production of the Su-57M, but the engine must pass all stages of testing. And after the tests, the Russian Defense Ministry will come and place an order for the VKS, since it will be time to compensate for the losses incurred during the SVO, and we are talking not so much about combat losses as about aircraft that will have exhausted their service life by that time.

So, for some reason, there is no particular doubt that we will see the Su-57M with the AL-51F-1 engine with a two-dimensional thrust vector control system in the not-so-distant future. Even if, yes, it took quite a long time to get it ready.


And all the non-believers and critics in the West, especially in the US, will then be able to kiss the Su-57M's nozzle. And it doesn't matter whether it's the left or the right one, they will still have the same engines and thrust vector control systems.

Yes, there are things that can be doubted. Atomic planes, nuclear underwater robots and so on. All this is our science fiction of yesterday, so to speak. But there are things that only a fool would doubt, and if I were many “experts,” I would not doubt Russian planes, Russian rockets (it doesn't matter which ones) and Russian systems EWWell, it’s not that it would be reckless, it’s just that disappointment can hit your pride harder than hazel crowbars hit Yuzhmash.
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  1. +20
    15 December 2024 06: 24
    Considering that China, if it sells its aircraft, will not sell it to everyone, and not every country can afford American ones, the Su-57 does have export potential.
    This is the part I don't really like - it turns out that our niche is among those who have no money and who are not favored by the Chinese, some kind of poor renegades (nothing more than quoting the implanted opinion of unscrupulous competitors)
    Then I didn't understand (this is not to the author of the article), why the Su-57 with AL-41 is not the 5th generation, and the Chinese with our clones of 31 and 93 are in the fifth with both feet. By the way, the Su-57 with AL-41F1 seems to provide "supercruise" M1,1 and it is precisely in this configuration that it should be supplied for export, you never know what someone wants.
    1. +4
      15 December 2024 06: 39
      Quote: mark1
      it turns out that our niche is among those who have no money
      Most likely, among those who have few of them
      1. +7
        15 December 2024 06: 47
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Most likely, among those who have few of them

        Well then this fundamentally changes the picture. sad
      2. +7
        15 December 2024 07: 23
        Do you think India and Algeria have little money?
        1. 0
          15 December 2024 07: 46
          Quote: Alexey Alekseev_5
          Do you think India and Algeria have little money?
          I think it's not enough
        2. +8
          15 December 2024 07: 52
          I don't count anything, I give a quote, draw conclusions based on it and say that I don't like the state of affairs that they are trying to create for us, because they are trying to remove us from competition while simultaneously declaring us technologically inferior. Is that clearer?
          1. +5
            16 December 2024 02: 43
            Quote: mark1
            I don’t like the state of affairs that they are trying to create for us, because they are trying to remove us from competition while simultaneously declaring us technologically inferior.

            Well, let's consider\list potential buyers of our Su-57E\ME:
            - Algeria (they have money, they buy our weapons in decent quantities),
            - Iran (not poor but not in dollars, trade turnover with the Russian Federation is growing, we need a lot of planes, we will pay in rubles from our revenue... let's say energy gas turbines for our thermal power plants, we need a LOT of planes),
            - India (we need a lot of planes, up to 300 units, negotiations are underway again, there is money),
            - OAI (there IS money, the 5th generation has been wanted for a long time and wants it very much, the US refused the F-35),
            - KSA (Saudi Arabia - has money, wants planes, the US refused F-35),
            - Egypt (it wants planes, it has the money, the US won’t sell the F-35, but it will experience external pressure... which can be tolerated for the sake of good planes),
            - Venezuela (wants planes, has problems with money due to sanctions, but has OIL, gold, cocoa, can provide space for military bases for the Aerospace Forces, Strategic Missile Forces and Navy, is in the Mir payment system and will be able to pay in rubles from the proceeds of its own deliveries),
            - North Korea (the state is not rich, but it can pay with counter deliveries).
            There are other contenders, but these are more than enough to fill new and still expanding production lines and recoup their costs with interest.
            And also - it doesn’t really matter how rich your customers are, what matters is what profit they can bring you.
            Quote: mark1
            They are trying to remove us from competition while simultaneously declaring us technologically inferior.

            If our “inferiority” in this area were real, the United States would not fight so fiercely against our military exports, and especially aircraft equipment.
            If the Su-75 takes off soon and turns out (the first takeoff is promised before the end of this year, in December), and with the new AL-51F, then we may have a boom in orders and sales. But this will most likely happen in the next decade.
            And now we just need to win in the Northern Black Sea region, returning the original Russian Lands to Russia, and the Russian people to Russia.
            1. +1
              21 December 2024 19: 20
              Quote: bayard
              - Algeria (they have money, they buy our weapons in decent quantities),
              - Iran (not poor but not in dollars, trade turnover with the Russian Federation is growing, we need a lot of planes, we will pay in rubles from our revenue... let's say energy gas turbines for our thermal power plants, we need a LOT of planes),
              - India (we need a lot of planes, up to 300 units, negotiations are underway again, there is money),
              - OAI (there IS money, the 5th generation has been wanted for a long time and wants it very much, the US refused the F-35),
              - KSA (Saudi Arabia - has money, wants planes, the US refused F-35),
              - Egypt (it wants planes, it has the money, the US won’t sell the F-35, but it will experience external pressure... which can be tolerated for the sake of good planes),
              - Venezuela (wants planes, has problems with money due to sanctions, but has OIL

              Algeria can buy. The cost of ownership is not very clear...
              Iran poor and the supply of aircraft is a direct conflict with Israel and, therefore, with Trump. Until we resolve the SVO issue, I don't see any chances. Israel is close and will be very much against it.
              Mossad agents will pull out all the characteristics. If they don't hijack the whole plane. The Hezbollah catastrophe - hints at it.
              India can say whatever it wants, but its main task is to pull production out of China. The acquisition of the Su-57 will greatly hinder this.
              United Arab Emirates и KSA They won’t buy it so as not to conflict with the West.
              Egypt - poor as a church mouse and is kept by the KSA. The States have already prevented him from buying a Su-35. They certainly won't give him a Su-57. Israel is close and will be very much against it.
              Venezuela does not need 5th generation aircraft.
              North Korea - even China won't be happy. Not to mention all the neighbors.
              In the current situation, there are no buyers for the Su-57, so I suppose that is why the development of the Su-75 was started. hi
              1. +1
                22 December 2024 05: 54
                Quote: Alex777
                Iran is poor and supplying aircraft is a direct conflict with Israel and, therefore, with Trump. Until we resolve the SVO issue, I don't see any chances. Israel is close and will be very much against it.

                There is already a contract with Iran for "about 70 Su-35SE", so the delivery of Su-57 is a second-priority task. In addition, the start of the execution of contracts will not be earlier than the end of the SVO. All negotiations are being conducted in secret and will definitely not be advertised especially with Iran.
                Israel is of course against it, but it is against many things, the question is what it will propose so that we will listen to it. Let's say its firm desire for our bases to remain in Syria, and if possible with a protectorate zone on the scale of two coastal provinces... this would be a good proposal in order to hold on to the contract for Su-57 for Iran. But this does not concern the contract for Su-35SE.
                Quote: Alex777
                India can say whatever it wants, but its main goal is to pull production out of China. The acquisition of the Su-57 will seriously hinder this.

                The creation of an alternative to China from India as a Mirofoy Factory will be greatly hampered by Trump's victory, he will drag and drive all production to the USA, setting prohibitive duties and introducing sanctions. And this will last a long time. But the J-35 is already entering service with Pakistan, and China is nearby. It was not for nothing that India imprisoned the initiators and participants of the scam with the "Rafales", besides, Modi in Kazan asked Putin not only about the Su-57, but also about the Su-75. They also calculate the prospects and do not have any special alternatives.
                Quote: Alex777
                The UAE and KSA will not buy in order to avoid conflict with the West.

                It's like saying - the region is getting hotter and hotter, a big war is possible and they really want planes.
                Quote: Alex777
                Egypt is as poor as a church mouse and is supported by the KSA. The US has already prevented it from buying Su-35. They certainly won't give it Su-57. Israel is close and will be very much against it.

                I think they remember the attack on the Su-35SE well, but they also remember what happened to Libya. And they also remember the "Muslim brothers", those Turkish devils. In addition, now there will be Russian bases in Libya. It is difficult to make such decisions alone, but if everyone together (UAE, KSA, Egypt), then it will be more difficult to put pressure, and it will be harder to find arguments against.
                But you are right, the most important thing for us now is Victory in the North-Eastern Military District. And until that is achieved, many decisions are difficult. I think that the negotiations that are currently underway are considering the start of deliveries under contracts closer to 2030. Algeria may begin receiving a little earlier.
                Quote: Alex777
                Venezuela does not need 5th generation aircraft.

                This is "right now". But it will have to write off its old F-16s, and the Su-30s that we supplied them with at the time are not at all state-of-the-art. Economic difficulties are also gradually being resolved, and if we approach this wisely, our business could participate in this very well. And we should remember that at one time Shoigu held negotiations there about the deployment of our bases. It is entirely possible and promising to link the interests of our business, the development of the Venezuelan economy and the deployment of bases with the delivery of Su-57s.
                Quote: Alex777
                North Korea - even China won't be happy.

                Why ??
                In case of an escalation of the confrontation with the USA and their stooges, their AUKUS, such a well-armed ally is always useful. The DPRK needs to modernize its air defense and rearm its air force. And in general, the PRC was not very indignant when the DPRK created nuclear weapons and adopted new and new IRBMs and ICBMs. Why shouldn't they be happy about the rearmament of Kim's air force?
                Quote: Alex777
                In the current situation there are no buyers for the Su-57

                In fact, the UAC management claims that there are already firm requests, and work is underway on contracts; it seems that they have already signed with Algeria - we will supply 24 units.

                But the World is really unstable and at any moment, maybe even in a few days, the TMV trigger can be activated by the explosion of two or three nuclear warheads in Kyiv, which will be passed off as a strike by Russia. This is exactly what the general killed by the Uzbek said in his last speech. The nuclear warheads will be English, but no one will bother to figure it out. This is exactly why the green clown is so desperately provoking Russia to serious, and personally against him, Revenge. At the moment of the explosion (they will time it to coincide with our raid on Kyiv), he will no longer be there, but for everyone he will become a "fallen victim of Putin's Revenge" and "burned in a nuclear tornado of retaliation." All of his and his close associates' funds and assets have already been withdrawn, with the arrival of Trump, he will definitely be finished, and the physical End will simply have nowhere to migrate - the American Themis will be looking for him. And so cleverly reset, unleashing the TMV and fly away somewhere to New Zealand... to this Earthly Paradise, to the Southern Hemisphere, where the war will not reach... wink Isn't this the Way Out?
                And he and his team certainly have no shortage of creativity and unscrupulousness. Besides, this is an MI6 plan and the ammunition is English.
        3. +3
          15 December 2024 14: 17
          Quote: Alexey Alekseev_5
          Do you think India and Algeria have little money?

          Depends on what for? For solving the problems of guaranteed security of the state from any kind of military threats - clearly not enough. For solving individual defense problems - more than enough.
      3. +1
        15 December 2024 12: 46
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Most likely, among those who have few of them

        But we need to promote it as “among those who know how to count them and don’t waste them.”
    2. +6
      15 December 2024 07: 21
      Not every country really needs the fifth generation with all its bells and whistles. But many want it. For various reasons, even just to show off in front of their neighbors. This is where a niche is formed...

      Moreover, the price of purchase and, most importantly, further maintenance of the penguin somehow does not correlate very well with its real capabilities. Not everyone is ready to pay purely for a tag with a cool brand.
      1. +3
        15 December 2024 20: 23
        In my opinion, the penguin, i.e. the F-35, is not that cool in itself. But if it is built into the American real-time data transmission system, then that's a different story. That is, a potential buyer of the F-35 must be a true US citizen for the US to include it in their system.
        1. +4
          16 December 2024 13: 54
          But the Su-57 is not integrated into the information system because we don't have one. And therefore, it can conditionally be a 5th generation aircraft. So, it may not be completely ours?! And it can be sold to those who don't know this.
          The F-35 is a poorly flying, low-observable computer for the global information system. But this is what makes it a full-fledged 5th generation aircraft. And it was the 1st, because the F-22 was fully integrated into the information system later, after modifications...
          1. +2
            17 December 2024 01: 41
            Quote: Vitov
            The F-35 is a poorly flying, stealthy computer

            The fact that the F-35 flies poorly is only written and said in the Russian Internet. It is not clear why this conclusion? The Swiss Air Force needs powerful, maneuverable aircraft and the pilots of the Swiss Air Force are considered to be among the best in the world, if not the best aces. After a big tender, with the participation of Grippen, F-16, F-18, Eurofighter, in my opinion, and Rafale and F-35, the F-35 won, overtaking all the others in a combination of criteria. But the most important criterion for the Swiss Air Force is the maneuverability and reliability of the aircraft, the ability to fly between the Alps and take off / land on small sections of highways. That is why they have been using the F-18 in recent years, precisely because it is a strong aircraft, created for aviation pilots. Switzerland, which is serious and attentive in any area, especially in matters of its security, in particular the Air Force, will never trust its security to a poorly flying aircraft.
            1. -1
              17 December 2024 02: 03
              But here they screwed up, your Swiss. The F-35 is only valuable in the American Combat Information System. Without it, it is useless. And Switzerland does not have such systems and never will have them...
              1. +2
                17 December 2024 02: 09
                The Swiss Air Force has the most complex theater of operations for supersonic fighters. And the Swiss Army has had a combat information and control system, as standard in all NATO and allied armies, for over a decade. Kampf verbundener Waffen is what the Swiss Army and Bundeswehr call it.
    3. -4
      15 December 2024 08: 41
      By the way, a new recording of pilots' negotiations recently appeared, where the Su-34 has already dodged 5 missiles fired by the Patriot air defense system. The negotiations are at the link below.

      . The FighterBomber channel dedicated to combat aviation published the negotiations of the crew of the Su-34 frontline bomber. During the combat sortie, the crew had to withstand heavy fire from the ground - the plane dodged five anti-aircraft missiles. And safely returned to base.


      https://rg.ru/2024/12/13/su-34-uvernulsia-ot-piati-raket-opublikovany-peregovory-ekipazha.html

      By the way, the Su-57 with AL-41F1 seems to provide M1,1 "supercruise" and it should be supplied for export in this configuration, you never know what someone wants.


      The Su-57 will be exported with the Product 177 S engine, an improved AL-41F1 that used engineering solutions and materials from the AL-51F1.
      1. -2
        15 December 2024 08: 48
        The company did not say what aircraft it is intended for, it only talks about the use of 177S in operational-tactical aviation. But since serial Su-57s are equipped with AL-41F1 engines (their second name is "product 117"), it is logical to assume that 177S will be used in the modernized Su-57.
        1. +1
          15 December 2024 11: 30
          It's simple: 177S instead of 117S (Su-35S, Su-30SM2), 177 instead of 117 (Su-57E).
    4. +1
      15 December 2024 13: 24
      Quote: mark1
      This is the part I don't really like - it turns out that our niche is among those who have no money and who are not favored by the Chinese, some kind of poor renegades (nothing more than quoting the implanted opinion of unscrupulous competitors)
      Lately our experts have been calling this the "countries of the global south".
    5. 0
      17 December 2024 00: 43
      Quote: mark1
      Why is the Su-57 with AL-41 not the 5th generation, while the Chinese with our clones of 31s and 93s are in the XNUMXth with both feet.

      And who puts the Chinese in the 5th generation except the Chinese themselves? Supercruise is in 5th place of importance for the 5th generation. The most important thing is the maximum possible reduction of the RCS, which in addition to the shape of the airframe provides a coating, such as the F-35 6-sided nanotubes that "absorb" part of the radar wave energy, reflecting only part in comparison with the usual aviation varnish of the 4th generation aircraft. This in itself is a whole branch of stealth technologies not only for aircraft, but also for ships, armored combat vehicles, etc. The Chinese, as was recently written here in one article, cover their "5th generation" aircraft with some kind of silicone layer with "steel scales", which somehow raises doubts about the outstanding capabilities of radar wave absorption by the anti-radar coatings of the Chinese "5th generations". Then the AFAR radar, which opens up new combat capabilities, sees more and better, including on the ground and above the ground and simultaneously works as electronic warfare. The next criterion of the 5th generation and probably one of the most important, is the network centricity of the machine. For this, of course, the entire army must be able to be network centric, the interaction of all branches of the armed forces, on land, at sea and in the air in one combat information and control system. Even if the Su-57 is brought to the level of the F-35 in all the above criteria, the Russian Armed Forces will not be able to simply use it for its intended purpose, there is no network centricity, communication in the air defense is carried out on whatever and anyhow, between aviation, artillery, armored fists, infantry, etc. there are a lot of gaskets and command chains. And for the Su-57 to simply fly and carry out single missions, it is redundant, the Su-35 is much cheaper and can essentially do the same. Just as an example of the consequences of the lack of a combat information and control system. The Su-57 flies on a mission along a certain route based on intelligence information. But the enemy has set traps, sleeping radars with air defense systems in passive mode. These air defenses were noticed by reconnaissance on the ground, say, by a sabotage and reconnaissance group or someone else, but since they do not have a direct connection with the combat information and control system, while they managed to get through to someone on their Bafang, they passed it on, they realized that the Su-57 was flying somewhere there, in the end too much time passed and the Su-57 crew was hit by an air defense strike. With a modern combat information and control system, the Su-35 crew would immediately know that there were air defenses on their route and could either adjust the route or even destroy the air defenses using the coordinates that appeared right there on the screen. NATO countries and allies, F-4 operators, buy these machines because they already have a network-centric system common with NATO and a national system, which has already been tested on 35th generation aircraft, and in this case, of course, the F-5 significantly increases the combat potential. So the 35th generation is not just an airplane, it is a part of the general organism, a technologically modern army. For this reason, by the way, the Indians are not interested in the F-XNUMX at the moment, since they do not have network-centric communication of all branches of the armed forces, although I am sure they are working on it. The Chinese are probably also working in this direction and are far advanced in terms of communication systems. The problem with the Chinese is in the hardware, they are not yet particularly good at making machines themselves. Sorry for the long text.
      1. 0
        17 December 2024 15: 35
        What do we know about the Su-57's stealth? - Nothing, except that experts, having measured various parts of the nose, determined it to be 0,1-0,3 M2, and the Russian side does not seem to dispute this. I doubt that work on the coating is in its infancy (I heard about such work back in the early 80s). Another question is, is it worthwhile to massively use a coating of this type, like the Americans have, with almost daily replacement?
        Network-centricity - chaos in the army does not cancel such a possibility of the Su-57 and the presence of ground equipment (although of course the crisis with the presence of aviation and satellite components of the AWACS is colossal, but this is a terrible chronic disaster, everyone understands everything, but does nothing), of course it exists (tea is no stupider than all the others)
        Indians are not interested in the F-35 because of its crooked handles
        But in general, I just wanted to point out the blatant (to the point of primitive impudence) unfair competition on the part of the American Chinese, with all the pseudo-smart fakes thrown into the pages of the press, which many people fall for (out of the simplicity of their souls)
  2. +22
    15 December 2024 07: 21
    The idiotic habit of Soviet generals and other leaders to look back at the Americans, unfortunately, has not died.
    Personally, when I participated in a closed exhibition of "our homemade products" in 1979, organized for one of the ministers of the USSR, I heard from him: "And how did the Americans do it?" and having received the answer: "I don't know", he was sincerely surprised and asked: "What, did you come up with this yourselves?"... And this was repeated with many more participants. When leaving the exhibition, he quietly said to our minister: "You're a good guy! Your guys have come up with a lot of interesting things, not like my research institutes.
    ps The result of the exhibition was that all participants were awarded a bonus in the amount of 3 monthly salaries. It's nice to remember good
    1. -2
      15 December 2024 17: 19
      The Tsar Martyr is a different matter, he walked past domestic cars at a car show with the phrase "I won't even look, foreign ones are better"
  3. +21
    15 December 2024 07: 52
    We need to forget about exporting the SU-57 for now. Who can we really sell it to? I don't see a single country other than Belarus that would be our true ally. We don't need 76 SU-57s, but at least 1076 to defend the country in the world situation that is becoming increasingly heated.
    And to train pilots for them by opening new flight schools, both purely military and with a military department.
    A nozzle with a 3D design will still show itself if designers figure out how to make any kind of hole from the nozzle petals in the desired flight mode. soldier
    1. -4
      16 December 2024 03: 03
      Quote: V.
      We don't need 76 SU-57s, we need at least 1076.

      Su-57 will be purchased for the VKS in quantities of at least 300 units. 76 units are simply the first two contracts.
      Quote: V.
      A nozzle with a 3D design will still show itself if designers figure out how to make any kind of hole from the nozzle petals in the desired flight mode.

      Why such perversions if a flat nozzle is necessary to reduce the radar and thermal signature of the aircraft? The saw-tooth cut of the axisymmetric nozzle slightly reduces the radar signature, but not the thermal signature. It is possible that the BCDT aircraft will be produced in two modifications:
      - in a strike with flat nozzles and maximum implementation of stealth,
      - and to gain air supremacy with an axisymmetric design that provides greater thrust and maneuverability.
      Quote: V.
      We should forget about exporting the SU-57 altogether for now. Who can we really sell it to?

      Algeria, India, Iran, UAE, KSA (Saudis), Iraq (if they manage to free themselves from the US presence), Egypt (if they show willpower against the pressure of the US and Israel), Venezuela, Vietnam and a whole host of other countries. The only question is about production capacity, but it is currently expanding.
  4. +9
    15 December 2024 07: 55
    It seems to me that Israel flew and shot more on their F35s than we did on the SU57.
    1. +5
      15 December 2024 08: 06
      I don't understand why the nozzle attachment is "three-dimensional"? After all, it is controlled only in two directions? Why the controlled thrust vector is three-dimensional, I can still assume, and even then it is exactly three-dimensional if there are two engines, with a single-engine aircraft it will become two-dimensional.

      Couldn't "those crazy Russians" make a flat one-dimensional nozzle rotating around the engine axis? It's very difficult technically, slower than with an axisymmetric nozzle, but it allows for a three-dimensional change in the thrust vector (with two separately controlled engines, of course)
      1. 0
        16 December 2024 01: 08
        Quote: VicktorVR
        I don't understand why the nozzle attachment is "three-dimensional"? After all, it can only be controlled in two directions?

        Because they don't understand what they are writing about. The nozzle flaps are deflected only in one plane. Therefore, the flat nozzle is not installed horizontally, as on the F-22, but is turned at the angle at which the round nozzle was deflected.
        Quote: VicktorVR
        Why is Thrust Vector Control 3D?

        Asymmetrical deflection of nozzle flaps on two engines, engine spacing and non-parallel installation of engines in the plane of the construction horizontal, controlled engine thrust difference.
    2. +1
      16 December 2024 03: 10
      Quote: VicktorVR
      It seems to me that Israel flew and shot more on their F35s than we did on the SU57.

      Israel is only now catching up, bombing a decapitated and non-resisting Syria. One raid on Iran and episodic strikes on Syria before, such statistics as in the SVO are not given. And the level of counteraction is much higher. Lately, the Ukrainian air defense is being taken out by the Su-57 and "Hunters".
      But Israel really does have the most experience in combat use of the F-35. Indeed, it is practically the only one among the operators of this aircraft that has it (combat experience).
      1. +2
        17 December 2024 01: 59
        Quote: bayard
        Lately, the Ukrainian air defense has been battered by the Su-57 and the Okhotniks.

        Where did you get this information? What kind of air defense systems, where and when were they carried out by Okhotnik and Su-57?
        1. -1
          17 December 2024 04: 19
          In the Odessa and Kharkov directions, the Ukrainian Armed Forces themselves testified to this, demonstrating fragments of the Kh-59 and Kh-69 anti-aircraft missiles, and this is precisely from the Su-57 air defense system. Ours confirmed this. But without details, in general terms - yes, they are used, yes, we work on air defense, yes, the "Hunters" are already in use. By the way, one such "Hunter" had to be shot down by a missile point-blank from a Su-57 right over the heads of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, who were filming it. That is, both devices were over territory controlled by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but the air defense did not work on them. Didn't see? Was it suppressed? Just a lack of air defense assets? Again, due to high losses from such hunters. And objectively, the Su-57 is the optimal means for suppressing air defense from the zone of its own radar invisibility.
  5. 0
    15 December 2024 08: 36
    American experts and "experts" (there are plenty of those there too), to put it mildly, took off and flew a bit. Approximately to the orbit of Mars or a little further.

    What kind of stand-up is this?
  6. +2
    15 December 2024 09: 04
    The flat nozzles that are now becoming fashionable have one very serious problem - a significant loss of engine thrust and, as a small but still negative addition, the difficulty of deflecting it in different planes. For example, from what I read on F-22 I remember that it is recommended to control the nozzles only if there is a need to overcome the enemy's air defense system. And in general, F-22 Americans are somehow quiet. And regarding the engine with such flat nozzles, I read a long time ago that they were going to attach a reverser to it. Whether they have it now or not, the article doesn't say...
    especially in the US, they will then be able to kiss the Su-57M on the nozzle
    Oh, how beautifully said! Respect!
    1. 0
      15 December 2024 12: 09
      The flat nozzles that are now becoming fashionable have one very serious problem - a significant loss of engine thrust and, as a small but still negative addition, the difficulty of deflecting it in different planes.
      - they have been used for a long time, it was only in Russia that they decided to try it.
      The "add-on" is easily corrected, only the length of the "block" will increase.
      1. +2
        15 December 2024 14: 08
        Quote: Deadush
        they have been used for a long time, it was only in Russia that they decided to try it
        Remind me, on what machines, besides F-22, are there still flat nozzles? And also feathering ones for roll and pitch...
        1. 0
          15 December 2024 17: 16
          and it is not necessary to put flat ones directly on the engine... I hope you know some examples?
          as well as experimental ones.
          and don't forget about the side effects of the F-22 engine: consumption, noise and exhaust temperature.
    2. 0
      16 December 2024 01: 13
      Quote: Luminman
      The flat nozzles that are now becoming fashionable have one very serious problem - a significant loss of engine thrust.

      There is already a slight loss of traction.
      Quote: Luminman
      and as a small, but still negative addition - the difficulty of its deviation in various planes.

      Likewise, round nozzles deflect only in one plane.
      Quote: Luminman
      For example, I also remember from what I read about the F-22 that it is recommended to control the nozzles only if there is a need to overcome the enemy’s air defense system.

      No. At high angles of attack for pitch control with increased efficiency of roll control.
  7. +3
    15 December 2024 09: 20
    It's just water, author you're probably out of the loop, but the metal parts of the afterburner made of heat-resistant steel also glow from the outside with any nozzle, so here everything is a little different - if you need super maneuverability, then the old Soelas are the best there is, and if you need stealth, then this is achieved constructively, and to be honest, the Su-35 will cope with any task in the air, like the MiG-31, they just need more and more, like other aircraft ...
    1. 0
      15 December 2024 10: 42
      Quote: air wolf
      the metal parts of the afterburner made of heat-resistant steel also glow
      This refers to IR stealth.
      1. +1
        15 December 2024 13: 56
        No afterburner diameter up to square meter ERP
      2. -1
        15 December 2024 14: 27
        Quote: Dutchman Michel
        Quote: air wolf
        the metal parts of the afterburner made of heat-resistant steel also glow
        This refers to IR stealth.
        If two engines with different nozzle shapes burned the same amount of fuel at relatively the same temperature, then the thermal wake of the aircraft will be comparable regardless of the nozzle shape.
        But for radar, the shape of the nozzle is important (a flat one with chopped shapes will give much less illumination than a round one)
        1. -1
          15 December 2024 14: 41
          Quote: Bad_gr
          If two engines with different nozzle shapes burned the same amount of fuel at relatively the same temperature, then the thermal wake of the aircraft will be comparable regardless of the nozzle shape.
          Just now I thought:
          no one denies that a flat nozzle leads to a loss of thrust (approximately 10%) - where does this energy loss go? Most likely, it is converted into heat. That is, an airplane with a flat nozzle on its engine should leave a larger thermal trace than a similar airplane with a standard, round nozzle on its engine.
          Where am I mistaken?
          1. +3
            15 December 2024 16: 31
            Quote: Bad_gr
            no one denies that a flat nozzle leads to a loss of thrust (approximately 10%) - where does this lost energy go?

            At the transition point from the circular cross-section of the engine behind the turbine and afterburner to the rectangular nozzle, there is a loss of pressure, which leads to a loss of effective engine thrust. Thrust losses can also be associated with profile resistance, which occurs due to the presence of a gap between the supersonic and outer flaps of the nozzle in its outlet section. Probably, one can also say about the energy costs at
            resistance of the flow passing through the flaps and defocusing of the gas jet coming out of the nozzle...

            Quote: Bad_gr
            That is, an aircraft with a flat engine nozzle should leave a larger thermal trace behind it than a similar aircraft with a standard round engine nozzle.

            Everything is exactly the opposite. The rectangular nozzle flaps do not simply throw out a hot stream of escaping gases from the nozzle - they defocus it, thereby reducing the angles of visibility of the heated parts of the engine behind the turbine available to the homing heads. This ensures a decrease in infrared visibility...
          2. +1
            16 December 2024 01: 14
            Quote: Bad_gr
            no one denies that a flat nozzle leads to a loss of thrust (approximately 10%)

            About 3%.
            1. +1
              16 December 2024 05: 46
              Until seventeen, they say
              1. 0
                16 December 2024 21: 43
                Quote: Calm_type
                Until seventeen, they say

                This was the case with our first sample in the 90s. The losses depend on the profile of the transition from round to rectangular, on the length of this section, on the ratio of the nozzle width to its height. Now everything has been worked out, and the losses are relatively small.
                1. 0
                  17 December 2024 02: 03
                  Wasn't the engine originally made with flat nozzles, and not just nozzles glued onto some engine?
                2. 0
                  17 December 2024 21: 58
                  They also say that the ratio of the length to the width of the nozzle should be at least one to four. Or better yet, like on the Nighthawk. The way it's done on the Raptor doesn't make sense.
        2. +2
          15 December 2024 15: 06
          Quote: Bad_gr
          But for radar, the shape of the nozzle is important (a flat one with chopped shapes will give much less illumination than a round one)
          For radar, it is not the geometric shape of the nozzle that matters, but these very, as you called them, chopped shapes. Such a nozzle is installed on the F-35, but it has a round shape. But the use of a flat nozzle with a changing cross-section is achieved by reducing the available angle of visibility of heated parts of the engine, such as the low-pressure turbine and the outlet device. The flaps of such a nozzle spray and disperse the hot stream, which ensures a decrease in infrared visibility. Theoretically, such an aircraft should be invisible. But you and I know...... wink
    2. -1
      16 December 2024 03: 29
      Quote: air wolf
      you're probably out of the loop, but the metal parts of the afterburner chamber made of heat-resistant steel also glow from the inside with any nozzle,

      Flat nozzles were invented for low visibility in the radar range, as well as to reduce the IR signature in the front hemisphere (there are comparative photographs of the F-22 and F-15 in the IR range on the frontal surface.
      In addition, in our flat nozzle design, the flaps are additionally cooled by the flow of the second circuit, creating a so-called "cold jacket" for the hot stream, also reducing the IR signature in the front hemisphere and at course angles. In the rear hemisphere, any flat nozzle is visible in the IR range as well as a round one.
      Quote: air wolf
      to be honest, the Su-35 will cope with any task in the air, like the MiG-31, they just need more and more, like other aircraft...

      Quantity is certainly important, but the advantage of covert approach to the launch range of the RVV and the advantage of the first shot will still remain with the low-observable aircraft. So it is necessary to increase production and numbers mainly of the Su-57 and if the Su-75 appears, then its too. Because the importance and advantages of the low-observability factor have been proven to us by the practice of combat use in the Air Defense Forces. And this is much more significant than theoretical reasoning.
      But the 4++ generation will still serve its purpose well.
  8. +11
    15 December 2024 09: 27
    Ugh. One impression - the writing started.
    And why not find and cite the opinion of some professionals? No.
    They refer to bloggers, to some “Western media in general”, etc., without giving any specifics.

    Well, they screwed up one! The nozzle. It's clearly experimental. Now it's time for fine-tuning, testing, reworking, time, money...
    Now the writing...
    1. +4
      15 December 2024 10: 00
      Overall it's not that request a resource where they refer to professionals. And even more so where they are published...
  9. +3
    15 December 2024 10: 00
    Not a single reference to opponents with criticism. Water, fiction and nonsense.
  10. 0
    15 December 2024 10: 09
    Wow! It hasn't even been 25 years since domestic designers did what the US did on the F-22! Looking at this optimistic trend, the army can finally hope to get normal jeeps, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles in 50 years, created for people, not circus monkeys.
    1. 0
      15 December 2024 14: 31
      Quote: cast iron
      Wow! It hasn't even been 25 years since domestic designers did what the US did on the F-22!
      There was information that the Sukhoi Design Bureau had no intention of making a flat nozzle. The order for a flat nozzle came from outside, so they only started working on it now.
      1. 0
        15 December 2024 19: 53
        ....... In addition, ensuring the necessary strength
        the rigidity and design rigidity of the flat nozzle
        inevitably accompanied by an increase in the mass of the explosive device.
        So the F100 (P&W) engine with a flat nozzle has
        weighs 180 kg more than with axisymmetric
        nym. This problem can be partially solved.
        the use of composite materials such as "carbon-
        "carbon - carbon", but the problem of the transition part-
        fabric from the circular section behind the turbine (nobody has yet
        made a square turbine!) to a rectangular one
        at the entrance to the nozzle remains... So when tested with-
        NPO "Motor" pla thrust loss in a flat nozzle
        the flow transformation score reached 14...17%

        What is used on our planes now
        The most understandable from the point of view of the design of the UVT system is the scheme of changing the thrust vector using a rotary unit located between the afterburner and the nozzle. In this case,
        the flow is turned in its subsonic part of the nozzle. Such a design allows modernizing existing RS designs by introducing a rotary unit. An example of such a nozzle is the VU of the AL-31FP engine (NPO Saturn).

        https://studfile.net/preview/6881899/page:86/
      2. 0
        16 December 2024 01: 26
        That's exactly it. Designers don't work on their own. They create machines according to the technical specifications. Apparently, someone in the Ministry of Defense woke up from hibernation and remembered that the SU-57 was designed to be stealthy. It's harder to do that with a round nozzle.
    2. -3
      15 December 2024 17: 55
      And where are these F-22s? Maybe that's why they weren't made, because the need for them wasn't obvious.
      1. +2
        16 December 2024 01: 23
        F-22s have been in service since 2005. In production since 2001. 187 units have been produced. Su-57s only fly during parades in quantities of 7-10 units. Are Americans still "stupid"? :)
        1. -1
          17 December 2024 23: 21
          So the production of the F-22 ceased in 2011. Or are the Americans so stupid that they abandoned such a wonderful machine.
    3. 0
      16 December 2024 01: 17
      Quote: cast iron
      Wow! It hasn't even been 25 years since domestic designers did what the US did on the F-22!

      No, that's not how it's done on the F-22.
      Quote: cast iron
      Looking at this optimistic trend, the army can finally hope to get normal jeeps, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles in 50 years, created for people, not circus monkeys.

      In terms of super-maneuverability, installing a flat nozzle on the Su-57 does not change anything. In the control loop, the flat one works the same as the round one.
      1. +1
        16 December 2024 01: 20
        The point of a flat nozzle is to reduce visibility. The US did this 25 years ago. Ours have finally gotten around to it.
        1. 0
          16 December 2024 01: 31
          Quote: cast iron
          The point of a flat nozzle is to reduce visibility. The US did this 25 years ago.

          No. The point is in the aerodynamic coupling of the nozzle (engine) with the "wide rectangular" fuselage. Some reduction in the RCS is a consequence of the coupling.
          1. +1
            16 December 2024 01: 40
            What's the point of making a conjugation for the sake of conjugation, if it also reduces thrust? A "square" nozzle for the sake of stealth. Otherwise, they would have made it round, like on all previous aircraft with various fuselage sections.
            1. -2
              16 December 2024 01: 43
              Quote: cast iron
              What's the point of doing pairing for the sake of pairing if it also reduces traction?

              I missed the word "aerodynamic". It was about aerodynamic coupling, optimization of flows, primarily over the tail section of the fuselage. The round nozzle with the shape of the F-22 fuselage noticeably worsened the aerodynamics, which was not compensated for by the greater thrust.
  11. -4
    15 December 2024 10: 12
    It must be admitted that the Su-57 resembles another scam - just a re-badged Su-35, what can it do better than the Su-35? And where is the air supremacy?
    1. -1
      16 December 2024 01: 18
      Quote: eskulap
      It must be admitted that the Su-57 resembles another scam - just a re-badged Su-35, what can it do better than the Su-35?

      You just never saw them in real life.
      1. +1
        17 December 2024 02: 18
        Quote: Comet
        You just never saw them in real life.

        This is not an answer. Why does the Russian Aerospace Forces need a Su-57 when the army does not have network centricity? Besides, it still has the PFAR from the Su-35. In general, I am of the opinion that the Russian Aerospace Forces need a lot of aircraft, which is why even the Su-35 and Su-34 raise questions given their price. There are about 200 of them in service in total. All over the world, they use MFLA, one aircraft for both air and land, and in my opinion, the Su-30MK, which is significantly cheaper than the Su-35 and Su-34, may be the same, or may be better because it is more versatile.
  12. -5
    15 December 2024 10: 24
    Quote: eskulap
    It must be admitted that the Su-57 resembles another scam - just a re-badged Su-35, what can it do better than the Su-35? And where is the air supremacy?


    baby talk.

    The Su-57 is not only a fighter, but also a strike aircraft that can carry cruise missiles in its internal compartments. And in this capacity, it has shown itself to be excellent in the air defense. At the very least, this is what stealth is needed for - to increase the radius of destruction of strike weapons in conditions of strong enemy air defense.
    1. -1
      15 December 2024 11: 11
      Stop echoing the author - how did the Su-57 "perform excellently in the SVO"? Maybe it gained air superiority? No. Or did it become a hunter of air defense systems? Also no... it is not clear at all whether it is used or not, the only thing that is clear is that 1 of the less than 30 available was damaged/destroyed right on the parking lot...
      P.S.: I would call the Su57 a failed PR project - for almost 15 years from the date of the first flight, they have not brought it up to the required parameters, there is no serial production, no export.
      1. +4
        15 December 2024 11: 49
        Quote: parma
        Maybe he gained air supremacy? No.

        The Ukrainian Armed Forces shot down aircraft, but one type of aircraft cannot achieve dominance in principle
        Quote: parma
        Or did he become an air defense system hunter? Also no...

        Yes, that's exactly what he did very well.
        1. 0
          15 December 2024 12: 00
          Let's be honest - "presumably shot down", because there were only statements in the press from unnamed sources about shooting down from either 250 or even 400 km (or I haven't seen any reports with credible evidence).
          There is also a question about air defense - I saw drones or Iskanders striking Western systems, but what role the Su-57 played in this is also a lot of questions.
          1. +4
            15 December 2024 12: 17
            Quote: parma
            well or I haven't seen any reports with reasonable evidence

            I'm afraid to even ask what evidence is needed for sanity if the target fell far away on the territory of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
            Quote: parma
            There is also a question about air defense - I saw drones or Iskanders striking Western systems, but what role does the Su-57 play?

            X-59, a series of operations
      2. 0
        15 December 2024 18: 03
        This war has destroyed many myths. And one of them is that air supremacy can be achieved with better aircraft. As long as the enemy has territory where he can place SAMs, you will not achieve supremacy. And the joke that the best means of air defense is your tanks on the enemy airfield turned out to be no joke at all.
        1. +2
          15 December 2024 21: 20
          Quote: eckons
          And one of them is that air supremacy can be achieved with better aircraft technology.

          What do myths have to do with it, if this was actually performed by the Americans in Yugoslavia and Iraq? Maybe it's just that either it doesn't work (we don't know how) or there was no command?
          1. +1
            15 December 2024 21: 27
            Would they have been able to do this if Yugoslavia or Iraq had been supplied by 50 countries of the world?
            1. 0
              15 December 2024 21: 35
              Quote: eckons
              As long as the enemy has territory where he can deploy air defense systems, you will not gain dominance.

              I answered this. And what does it have to do with how many are being supplied? They started supplying them with air defense missile systems in May-June, 3 months after they started... in 3 months, in theory, you can roll everything out... besides, they haven't supplied them with that many modern air defense missile systems...
              1. 0
                15 December 2024 21: 53
                Besides. Actually, the Ukrainian air defense was taken out long ago. Now the sky of ruins is protected by the combined air defense of 50 countries, that's why there is no air superiority. And you can't help but understand this. What SAM systems are not modern Patriots, Nasams, Irises. Crotales? Not counting various MANPADS and other small stuff like Hawks in incredible quantities.
                1. 0
                  15 December 2024 22: 15
                  Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                  They started supplying the air defense missile system in May-June, 3 months after it started... in 3 months, in theory, everything could be rolled out into nothing...

                  but this was not done - why?
                  Quote: eckons
                  Now the sky is covered in ruins and is protected by a combined air defense system from 50 countries, so there is no air superiority.

                  Well, at the beginning of Yugoslavia and Iraq there was no superiority either... and again - this is NOW... and the superiority in the first months was not realized for some reason...
                  Quote: eckons
                  Which air defense systems are not modern Patriots, Nasams, Irises, Crotales?

                  Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                  They didn't supply them with that many modern air defense systems.

                  several batteries do not cover the entire sky and they can be taken out if you know how... anti-radar missiles to the rescue...
                  1. -1
                    16 December 2024 00: 22
                    Well, at the beginning of Yugoslavia and Iraq there was no superiority either.
                    During the 15 days of the operation, NATO combat aircraft carried out more than 1700 sorties, and about 450 sea- and air-launched cruise missiles were used. How could it not have happened? This is not superiority?
                    a few batteries do not cover the entire sky

                    And there is no need to cover the entire sky. Either objects or threatened directions are covered.
                    1. 0
                      16 December 2024 09: 28
                      Quote: eckons
                      During the 15 days of the operation, NATO combat aircraft carried out more than 1700 sorties, and about 450 sea- and air-launched cruise missiles were used. How could it not have happened? This is not superiority?

                      Well, yes.. that's why I wrote it in the beginning
                      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                      They started supplying the air defense missile system in May-June, 3 months after it started... in 3 months, in theory, everything could be rolled out into nothing...

                      it turns out that ours can't do that... or there was no order... so no myth-busting hi
                      1. -1
                        16 December 2024 10: 11
                        Well, yes.. that's why I wrote it in the beginning
                        Quote: 2 level advisor
                        They started supplying the air defense missile system in May-June, 3 months after it started... in 3 months, in theory, everything could be rolled out into nothing...
                        Well, at the beginning of the SVO, the Ukrainian Air Defense Forces had about 80 S-300 batteries, about 70 BUKs, Tors, S-125s and other OSAs, Tunguskas, MANPADS. We would have lost all our aviation in three months. And what could the Yugoslavs counter the Americans with?
          2. 0
            16 December 2024 01: 20
            Quote: Level 2 Advisor
            What do myths have to do with it if this was actually performed by the Americans in Yugoslavia and Iraq?

            There were completely different air defense systems there.
            1. +1
              16 December 2024 09: 26
              Quote: Comet
              There were completely different air defense systems there.

              The SAM systems are about the same age as the Ukrainians had, so it’s comparable. hi
              1. 0
                16 December 2024 22: 09
                Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                The SAM systems are about the same age as the Ukrainians had, so it’s comparable.

                But do SAMs turn into something identical with age? The new S-75 can only fire at one target at a time, while the new S-300PS can fire at 6. And when the S-300PS reaches the age of the S-75, it will also be able to fire at only one target at a time? In what literature on air defense did you find such an indicator when evaluating a SAM as its age?
                1. +1
                  17 December 2024 02: 22
                  So the losses of the Americans and NATO are almost non-existent in comparison with the Russian Aerospace Forces in the North-Eastern Military District.
                2. +1
                  17 December 2024 09: 51
                  Quote: Comet
                  But do air defense systems turn into something identical with age?

                  Well, the planes are changing, the EPR is decreasing, the missiles are more accurate and have a longer range, the interference they put up is completely different from before... so it's a very debatable question hi
                  1. -1
                    17 December 2024 22: 22
                    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                    Well, planes are changing, the EPR is decreasing, missiles are more accurate and have a longer range

                    So what? Neither jammers, nor cruise missiles, nor anti-aircraft missiles could hit the Iraqi SAMs. But the Ukrainian SAMs could. How much time does it take for the SA-75 (Iraq) to start moving to change its position, and how much does it take for the S-300PS (Ukraine) to start moving to change its position? How much time does it take for the Kub SAM (Iraq) to start moving to change its position, and how much does it take for the Buk SAM (Ukraine) to start moving to change its position? What is the reaction time of the SA-75 SAM and the S-300PS SAM? Can the SA-75 SAM search for targets while tracking a target, and the S-300PS?
                    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                    the interference is completely different from before.

                    Not the same at all? And which ones and how? Even the "simplest" interference makes the SA-75 completely inoperable, but any only reduces the probability of defeat for the S-300PS.
                    Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                    so - it's a very debatable question

                    Only if you are not familiar with the material.
      3. -4
        16 December 2024 04: 04
        Quote: parma
        the only thing that is clear is that 1 out of less than 30 available was damaged/destroyed right in the parking lot...

        Ooh, how it's all messed up. You, young man, probably have evidence of such "destruction"? Or just two photos: a Su-57 parked, and the same place with traces of a UAV's landing? But no debris, no traces of anything burning there, and the second photo looks more like Photoshop, but still without debris.
        Quote: parma
        How did the Su-57 "perform excellently in the SVO"? Maybe it gained air supremacy? No.

        Gaining air superiority is a process that the Su-57, and now the S-70 Okhotnik, are engaged in. Regularly and very effectively. Because such superiority implies not only the destruction of everything that takes off from enemy territory, but also the suppression of air defense. Aircraft are shot down (often from record distances), and air defense has been destroyed so actively lately that even in NATO countries, air defense is running out, due to continuous supplies for used ones. And in the suppression of air defense, the Su-57 shows itself most actively and effectively. And this is recognized in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, collecting and demonstrating the wreckage of the Kh-69 and Kh-59 (PRLR), which are now used ONLY by this aircraft. And these missiles arrive for the Armed Forces of Ukraine "out of nowhere" - the air defense systems do not see them, and only by the wreckage of the missiles can they determine what kind of aircraft used them. Read your sources, young man.
        Quote: parma
        there is no serial production,

        Last year, 12 Su-57s were delivered, this year - 20 units (although they promised a little more), next year they plan to deliver 30 units. In addition, new production and assembly shops are now being put into operation, so the production rate will continue to increase. That is why they offered it for export, because in 2-3 years the production capacity will be able to satisfy not only the needs of the Aerospace Forces, but also the export requests of our customers. And there are already orders/contracts, but of several customers, only one has been publicly named - Algeria.
        Quote: parma
        How did the Su-57 "perform so well in the SVO"?

        By all possible means, methods and images - your air defense does not see it, but regularly catches its missiles, decreasing at a record pace, planes are shot down at record (for the whole world) distances, targets on the ground are hit with pinpoint accuracy, but no one sees the carriers of the X-69 and X-59 cruise missiles. That is why there is great interest and demand for it abroad.
        1. +3
          16 December 2024 09: 02
          Is there something more than words? For 8 years I have heard that the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be destroyed in a couple of days, and if we want, we can get to the English Channel in a week, now for almost 3 years I have been hearing how the Ukrainian Armed Forces have been destroyed for the 146th time with all their forces, but for some reason footage of the destruction of T-64 and BTR-4, which there is simply no one to supply, is still published, sometimes it seems that even more often than M113 and Bradley.
          P.S.: What kind of air defense is this? They can’t see the SU-57, I’m a Russian citizen…
          1. -4
            16 December 2024 15: 47
            Quote: parma
            I am a citizen of Russia

            You are an XRe.N0y citizen and a chatterbox.
            Quote: parma
            Is there something more than words?

            There is the fact of the collapse of the air defense of Sumeristan. The fact of the destruction of the entire legacy of the entire legacy of the three best Soviet military districts (three air defense armies and the Air Defense Forces of these three districts), all the air defense systems of the former Warsaw Pact brought from the countries of Eastern Europe and the SAM systems of Soviet production bought up all over the world, and a fair number of SAM systems of NATO production. This is a colossal job, and it continues.
            Quote: parma
            For 8 years I have been hearing that the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be defeated in a couple of days

            And who told you that? About three days to take Kyiv? Definitely the General Staff or maybe Putin? The SVO was launched to disrupt the Ukrainian Armed Forces' offensive in Donbass, to force them to peace and refuse to join NATO. No one prepared an invasion group, no mobilization or accumulation of forces was carried out. They tried to force the Clown to flee and facilitate a change of power in the former. But they had to get involved in a protracted conflict.
            Quote: parma
            for some reason there are shots of the destruction of the T-64 and BTR-4, which there is simply no one to supply

            Well, there were about 64 used T-4000 tanks in storage (except for combat vehicles), so there is a place to get/restore them from. Only Western equipment is increasingly appearing in the chronicles, and these same BTR-4s are almost never seen. The Ukrainian Armed Forces are already fighting on NATO territory. For a long time. But they are all burning. Read everything Soviet, even armored vehicles collected from former Warsaw and around the world, have already burned. The chronicles are full of NATO armored vehicles. But there was so much of everything... Soviet-made.
            Quote: parma
            what air defense can't the SU-57 see

            Your air defense, young man. But regarding the means of destruction used by your air defense, your own representatives of the Ukrainian Armed Forces testify that their air defense means are destroyed by Kh-59 and Kh-69 missiles - the standard armament of the Su-57. This is what your military representatives, Arkasha, assert. Read them more carefully.
            Quote: parma
            I am a citizen of Russia

            You, Arkasha, are the Bad Boy from the film about Kibalchish. And I even think that you are worse.
            1. +1
              16 December 2024 20: 49
              Well, as always with the turbo-drivers, as soon as I asked “what is your evidence”, immediately “CIPSA!”…
              By the way, the PVV also figuratively promised to quickly finish the SVO, for example, when he addressed the Ukrainian Armed Forces soldiers with calls to overthrow the government...
              It is also absolutely unclear what kind of collapse of the Ukrainian air defense is being discussed, our (Russian!) planes also never set foot behind the front line (and sometimes even this does not help, if anyone has forgotten, they shot down 2 A-50s)...
              It's also funny about the "great darkness of T64", as of 2021 the Ukrainian Armed Forces had about 800 in service and 500-600 in storage, the rest are most likely scrap, it's easier to produce a new one than to assemble a Frankenstein. But to be honest, I haven't seen any photos or videos of damaged Soviet modifications, everything I've seen is already Ukrainian (and I doubt that the Ukrainians can modernize anything now). Regarding the BTR-4 - I only saw video reports in October with 3 or 4 being defeated (although they may be "canned" videos).
              In general, young man, you are a boor who has nothing but words...
              1. 0
                17 December 2024 03: 14
                Quote: parma
                The PVV also figuratively promised to quickly finish the SVO, for example, when he addressed the Ukrainian Armed Forces fighters with calls to overthrow the government...

                He addressed officers and generals. And by the way, in the first days of the SVO, Russian troops were given the order... "not to shoot at the soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, only at the national battalions". I don't know from what moon he fell and what he thought, if all the national battalions had long been integrated into the Armed Forces of Ukraine for "cementing the personnel".
                Quote: parma
                as always with turbos

                Young man, my turbine hasn’t turned in this direction for a long time; I’ve been in this war for 11 years.
                Quote: parma
                It is also absolutely unclear what kind of collapse of Ukraine's air defense is being discussed.

                Collapse is a "collapse" \ a sharp reduction in numbers \ volume, which is what we are now observing. And its air defense has been constantly replenished for a long time from NATO reserves, the Soviet systems from the available ones have apparently run out. The number and density of Ukrainian air defense has dropped very sharply today and it is no longer possible to fully replenish the losses. But nevertheless, this is like the case with a swimming pool, where it pours in from one pipe, and pours out from another. Today, much more is pouring out and Sumerian publics are screaming about it, and Zelensky himself is constantly begging for more and more air defense systems.
                Quote: parma
                our (Russian!) planes also never set foot behind the front line

                What are they supposed to do there? Run into ambushes and bomb from above?? We've played enough with these toys in the first phase. Pilots are too valuable and expensive a resource to risk them without special need.
                The Russian Armed Forces are not currently conducting a maneuver war, with deep breakthroughs and raids on the rear of armored columns - FPV, flocks of UAVs over the battlefield and high-precision munitions have made this impossible. The Russian Armed Forces are currently chewing up the Ukrainian Armed Forces along the entire front line, and FABs with UMPKs are making this increasingly effective. But until an antidote to massive FPV attacks is found, the war will be exactly like this - slowly gnawing and chewing up enemy forces, but across the entire width of extended fronts. And we don't even have parity in FPV yet, numerically in this segment we are inferior by about 3 times. Next year, industry promises to provide a numerical advantage. and possibly a qualitative one.
                Quote: parma
                if anyone forgot, 2 A-50s were shot down

                Yes, they were shot down from an ambush by a nomadic Patriot, these air defense systems were later destroyed, but we lost two valuable aircraft. True, by the end of last year, the Aerospace Forces received two freshly modernized A-50Us and the numerical strength was restored... Calculations cannot be returned... This year, two more A-50Us were supposed to join the Aerospace Forces - the pace of work on their modernization from old A-50s has been increased by 4 times compared to pre-war ones. By the way, two A-100s are already undergoing flight tests and, it seems, successfully. And while they are not in production, it was decided to build the A-50U from scratch, because the old A-50s are running out. I am a former combat control officer of an air defense unit, and several of my classmates flew A-50s. They retired 5 years before the Air Defense Forces.
                Quote: parma
                The "darkest darkness of T64" thing is also funny

                Laughter without reason? Actually, Yanukovych spoke about 4000 T-64s in storage bases more than once even before Maidan - they pressured him to dispose of them. Like the Tu-160, Tu-95SM, Tu-22M3 in their time... He resisted.
                Quote: parma
                As of 2021, the Ukrainian Armed Forces had about 800 in service and 500-600 in storage

                Storage can be different. There is a first-priority storage facility, from which the Ukrainian Armed Forces pulled tanks on the very first day (night!) of the introduction of the "military threat regime" when Crimea announced a referendum. And in the first couple of days, 5 or 6 tanks were burned due to faulty wiring - 4 tanks in boxes and another one or two in trenches when the engine was turned on to warm up. Have you seen any photos of the storage areas at the Malyshev Plant? With trees growing through the MTO? That's far from all. And the tank is not a Zhiguli, the hull will not rot, and the engines and dismantled devices/equipment are usually stored separately in warehouses. At the Malyshev Plant, they were restored/modernized, a new, more powerful engine was installed, everything was disassembled, as is done here. When they started bombing Kharkov, the repair facilities were dispersed and some were taken to Lvov, some to Poland and the Czech Republic. And the entire NATO collective farm restored these tanks. The caterpillar tracks were set up to be produced in England... War is much more complicated, multifaceted and multi-level than any guard-"patriotism".
                Quote: parma
                It's easier to produce a new one than to assemble Frankenstein.

                Have you tried? At least set up the smelting and hardening of armor plates? And the welding of armor plates, so that there are no cracks or temperature deformations?
                And here - ready-made armored hulls, chassis in oil - disassemble, replace bearings and go. Even the tracks are disassembled. In war, it is always easier to restore and modernize than to build a new tank. In Russia, the same thing - the overwhelming majority of new tanks are restored and modernized tanks with dynamic protection. Only they are disassembled to the bare hull and after defect detection reassembled anew, with a new engine, avionics, sighting system, new dynamic protection. The T-72B3M that came out of the factory is equivalent to a new tank, because in essence it is new. But in the old hull. And this is many times faster and cheaper than making a T-90M from scratch.
                Quote: parma
                But to be honest, I haven't seen any photos or videos of damaged Soviet modifications, everything I've seen is Ukrainian.

                What, what?? They built only a few new tanks from scratch in the entire post-Soviet period. Everything else, including those that were exported, were Soviet tanks from storage and availability. Reassembled, with a new engine (and they did end up with a good engine of 1000 hp), with updated avionics. So everything that runs with crosses is a re-badged Soviet one. Even their new armored personnel carriers were initially welded/reassembled from old T-70 and T-80 hulls. Then they started welding them themselves - for export, but the hulls turned out to be cracked, there was a scandal with the Iraqi customer.
                Quote: parma
                Regarding the BTR-4 - I only saw video reports in October with 3 or 4 losses

                I haven't seen it. But in principle they could have been preserved as part of previously non-combatant rear brigades. But there are only a few of them now - the footage of our FPV destroying them shows almost exclusively NATO equipment.
                Quote: parma
                You are a boor who has nothing but words...

                Is this how you talk to the mirror?
                Be careful, you can poison yourself with your own bile.
                Quote: parma
                As of 2021, the Ukrainian Armed Forces had about 800 in service and 500-600 in storage

                This is due to incompetence, inattention and recklessness. In a word, due to ignorance of the subject. Do not continue the argument.
  13. Eug
    +3
    15 December 2024 12: 12
    Made me smile "they would help cool the "EXHAUST GASES"" (as in the article). According to reports, I thought that both the Su-35 and Su-57 with AL-41F can fly supersonic without afterburner, but it is impossible to overcome the compression shock to reach supersonic speed without afterburner with AL-41F. Am I wrong?
  14. 0
    15 December 2024 12: 29
    I would say that it is a question of physics how to reduce stealth in a radar pulse. And in any case, not by a method that violates aerodynamics. The question is rather in electromagnetic processes and how to control the polarization of the hull when it is ionized by air flows. And besides, there is every reason to see and understand that the so-called flat nozzles reduce the efficiency of the mass ejection process. And using a more thoughtful Laval Nozzle as a principle and process, it is possible to radically improve both maneuverability and cruising speed above Mach and more.
    1. +2
      15 December 2024 14: 12
      Quote: gridasov
      And using a more sophisticated Laval Nozzle
      How else can you design a Laval Nozzle? wink
      1. +2
        15 December 2024 16: 30
        How else can you design a Laval Nozzle?
        If you think it through, it will no longer be a Laval nozzle, but a nozzle named after the one who thought it up.
    2. +2
      15 December 2024 16: 29
      Gridasov, you're finally back! Better tell me how Odessa lives these days, and about "controlling the polarization of the hull during its ionization by air currents" some other time.
      1. +1
        15 December 2024 17: 06
        If you don't become a zombie, then there is no chance.
        1. 0
          15 December 2024 17: 56
          If you don't become a zombie, then there is no chance.
          I mean, there is no chance. What kind of chance? To resist the TCC people?
  15. +2
    15 December 2024 13: 08
    How long can we call our weapons NATO nicknames!? What the hell, a "criminal"?! Why isn't the F-35 nicknamed "jackal" or "penguin"?
  16. +5
    15 December 2024 13: 18
    And from seeing that the Russians, it turns out, can not only be invisible, but also original (one of The War Zone readers put it this way: in a perverted way) spoiled the mood of many.

    Author, how is it "original" if you yourself write that such a nozzle was used on the F-22 many years before?
    This type of low-visibility "flat" engine nozzle shape is also used, for example, on the F-22 Raptor

    This is also known as 3D thrust vector control and provides pitch, yaw and roll control. Note that this is not yet available to American manufacturers.

    Author, in the States this “inaccessible” thing was built a long time ago, they conducted comprehensive tests and considered its use impractical (whether this is true is a moot point, but certainly not because they couldn’t do it).
    There was a whole line of aircraft with UVT, including three-dimensional (even more - with two-dimensional)
    McDonnell Douglas F-15 ACTIVE and F-18 High Alpha (HARV), General Dynamics NF-16D (X-62 VISTA), the Japanese Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin (ATD-X) and the German-American Rockwell-Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm X-31.
    1. 0
      16 December 2024 01: 27
      Quote from solar
      Author, how is it "original" if you yourself write that such a nozzle was used on the F-22 many years before?

      No. On the F-22 the nozzle is not positioned like that.
      Quote from solar
      Author, in the States this “inaccessible” thing was built a long time ago, they conducted comprehensive tests and considered its use impractical (whether this is true is a moot point, but certainly not because they couldn’t do it).

      Your statement is false. You are missing the chronology.
      Quote from solar
      and the German-American Rockwell -Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm X-31

      But this is the only one on which the use of supermaneuverability in air combat was studied. Now put the rest of those you listed in chronological order. And remember when the X-31 made its first flight and when the F-22.
  17. +2
    15 December 2024 15: 00
    Regarding the four flaps on the flat nozzle. The picture shows a flat nozzle where all 4 are visible.
  18. 0
    15 December 2024 15: 34
    The Russian Ministry of Defense will of course study the characteristics of the aircraft with different nozzle options and decide which one we need more. And the possibility of implementing it in several versions will simply increase the export potential: if you want super-maneuverable or low-noise - any whim for your money!
  19. -2
    15 December 2024 15: 43
    I didn't even read it. And I started with a small letter. smile Roma, goodbye love Mom's Ekperd feel
    1. -3
      15 December 2024 15: 47
      A nozzle in your drawbar fellow The comment is short, so good health to you drinks
    2. +2
      15 December 2024 16: 34
      I didn't even read it. And I started with a small letter smile Roma, goodbye love Ekperd mamin

      And to laugh? The author often eliminates the gloomy mood.
  20. Des
    +4
    15 December 2024 16: 45
    "Foreign Military Review", early 80s.
    An article about the prospects for the development of aviation. A sketch of a twin-engine military aircraft with rectangular nozzles.
    1. +3
      15 December 2024 17: 48
      There were not only sketches then.
      In 1977, Langley began a systems integration study of thrust vector control, thrust reversal, and 2-D nozzles on the F-15 in conjunction with McDonnell Douglas.
      1. Des
        +2
        15 December 2024 17: 54
        Yes, I doubted it based on my memory)). The magazine had a photo of an F-15. But it was of such quality that I am now on the safe side.
  21. +1
    15 December 2024 17: 01
    No aircraft in the world has a mass series and most likely will never have one, it is enough to simply inquire about the conditions of mass production. And even if there are 1000 fighters, it will still be a series. But this is hardly possible, if the cost of all the yachts of the oligarchs of the Russian Federation exceeds the cost of the entire Navy of the Russian Federation, I mean that money is being stolen and it is hardly possible to find a lot of it for the Air Force in the current situation in the country.
    For the Indian Air Force, those who will gladly sell our secrets to the Saxons, as happened with our submarine and wake search system leased to the Indian Navy. Whatever the export modification, there is still a lot of secret information in it. Our Su-30MKI has already been examined in the West in all its internal and external "cracks", with all the secret modes of operation of the radar.
    In fact, we are not allowed to sell these fighters to anyone at all.
    1. +1
      15 December 2024 17: 30
      That's why in Soviet times they sold planes with simplified avionics
      1. 0
        16 December 2024 06: 36
        And simplified electronics and simplified engines make our equipment obviously weak, which greatly affects combat effectiveness and, as a result, reputation.
  22. +3
    15 December 2024 17: 28
    The noise in the West about the nozzles? Has anyone even noticed it there? The F-22 Raptor, which was invented in the last millennium, also has flat nozzles, and what's more, when the PAK-FA appeared, the Americans wrote that because of the round nozzles it would have worse stealth compared to the Raptor, to which domestic experts and commentators wrote that all this was nonsense and the flatness of the nozzles did not affect anything... And then almost 15 years passed, and so I suppose the same commentators and journalists admire the flat nozzles on the Su-57, and boast that they wiped the nose of the damned Americans
    1. +1
      15 December 2024 21: 22
      They don't have the same ones and they're not as flat. Remind me that the Penguin Fu35 has flat nozzles.
    2. 0
      16 December 2024 01: 35
      Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
      to which domestic experts and commentators wrote that all this is nonsense and the flatness of the nozzles does not affect anything...

      You wrote it correctly. The EPR depends on the coupling of the nozzle (engine) and the fuselage.
  23. 0
    15 December 2024 17: 47
    Perché i russi devono sempre pensare di vendere la loro tecnologia militare più avanzata? gli americani hanno vietato la vendita del F22 da subito..
  24. +1
    15 December 2024 17: 52
    And if we make this flat nozzle rotate along the engine axis, it will become three-vector.
    1. +1
      15 December 2024 20: 48
      Judging by the photo, it is already rotating. The doors are at an angle.
      1. -1
        16 December 2024 00: 24
        Well then this is an obvious technical solution.
      2. 0
        16 December 2024 01: 36
        Quote: malyvalv
        Judging by the photo, it is already rotating. The doors are at an angle.

        Does not rotate. The nozzle is positioned to maintain the same jet deflection control as the previous round nozzles.
        1. 0
          16 December 2024 06: 22
          Well, that is, all-round, like on the previous nozzles, and not just up and down.
          1. 0
            16 December 2024 21: 45
            Quote: malyvalv
            Well, that is, all-round, like on the previous nozzles, and not just up and down.

            The previous nozzles also deflected only in one plane.
            1. 0
              17 December 2024 08: 52
              If in simple terms, then up and down and right and left and diagonally. If geometrically, then the possible deviations of the vectors formed a volumetric cone with the apex at the engine nozzle.
              1. 0
                17 December 2024 22: 33
                Quote: malyvalv
                If in simple terms, then up and down and right and left and diagonally. If geometrically, then the possible deviations of the vectors formed a volumetric cone with the apex at the engine nozzle.

                No, only in one plane. This one forms an angle with the plane of symmetry, if my memory serves me right, of 15 degrees. In terms of the thrust vector, installing a flat nozzle did not change anything.
                1. 0
                  18 December 2024 08: 46
                  If the word "all-perspective" gets along with the concept "in one plane" for you, then that's fine.
                  1. 0
                    18 December 2024 19: 02
                    The PU is made using a single-hinged design. The PU rotation axis relative to the horizontal axis is rotated by an angle of 32° 44' clockwise (view according to n.p.) for the right engine. For the left engine by an angle of 32° 44' counterclockwise. The rotation axis rotation is achieved by rotating the PRS at the joint with the front device.



                    The chief designer of the Su-57 said about the flat nozzle:
                    since the nozzle installation angle is maintained with axisymmetrical, all the aircraft's super-maneuverability capabilities are also maintained
                    1. 0
                      19 December 2024 07: 18
                      This should have been sent to my opponent, who claims that "it doesn't rotate".
                      1. 0
                        19 December 2024 11: 22
                        Well, it doesn't actually rotate. The axes of the engine's rotary devices are not parallel, the nozzle of the left engine deflects left-up and right-down, and the right one deflects right-up and left-down relative to the neutral position. The flat nozzles are installed in the same way, only the deflection is not performed by a separate rotary device, but by the flaps themselves.
  25. 0
    15 December 2024 18: 59
    "If I were in the place of many "experts", I would not doubt Russian planes, Russian missiles (no matter which ones) and Russian electronic warfare systems." - Roman, of course, writes this while calmly flying over Kiev and the capitals of Europe. Then yes, there are no doubts.
  26. +1
    15 December 2024 19: 34
    The images also show that the wing flaps are ventilated, which, combined with air being forced through these areas, would help cool the exhaust gases and reduce the aircraft's infrared signature.

    It is difficult to judge the cooling and dispersion of exhaust gases from the nozzle shape. Perhaps Sukhoi engineers solved the problem by compacting the inlet flow and exhaust jet while optimizing the thrust force and fuel consumption, and the resulting low exhaust temperature.
    Well done!
  27. -2
    15 December 2024 21: 00
    then they will divide these attachments into parts and make a drive for each part of the attachment in order to achieve the necessary characteristics... and they will control the position of the engine in the plane... There will be more - there are more drives than muscles in a person...
    And so, it seems like it was simply copied from the Americans... without thinking... and why they didn't develop a ready-made nozzle is not clear...
  28. 0
    15 December 2024 21: 21
    Well, the atomic planes returned to the hazel grove, they didn't believe it either and didn't know
  29. 0
    15 December 2024 22: 08
    The noise and excitement are understandable. The Chinese and Indians have been waiting for the second stage engine to appear for a long time. That's why they didn't buy with the old engine. I don't know how the Indians will behave in the future, the Chinese want to rip off the engine. They already have the airframe.
    1. 0
      16 December 2024 20: 26
      Dear Ogurtsov! If we are talking about the Chinese, then we can "rip off" everything and everyone... But! Margarine will never be butter... The same goes for the airframe and especially for aircraft engines, the technological secrets of their production are the most guarded information in the world... Only Russia, the USA, Britain and France know and can make aircraft turbines from "A" to "Z". All the others work either under license, but with the purchase of the most critical units and parts from the licensor, or they "sharpen" everything as best they can themselves... And then it's all "margarine".... There are technological "subtleties" in the production of aircraft turbines that neither India nor China can "grasp" to this day, although they have been trying to "grasp" them independently for over 50 years now....
  30. +1
    16 December 2024 20: 09
    Let's "filter the market" as "very influential businessmen" used to say in the 80s, regarding export-import "wants" of ours and "foreigners" regarding aviation equipment... Always and everywhere they wanted that "airplane" that "can" very well in combat, is quite affordable and is acceptably simple to operate and prepare for takeoff... And everything else is from the "evil one": politics, bribery, blackmail, banal deception... So it was, is and will be at all times... The "Su-57" has a complex design and production "fate", but, a fairly high technical and combat potential... And the measure of everything and everyone is only experience and real statistics... So far, the "Su-57", both with experience and statistics of combat use, is very, even, not bad, which speaks of a decent expected export potential of this combat vehicle...
  31. +2
    16 December 2024 23: 05
    Engine AL-51F1 — is a true fifth-generation engine because it will be the first of its kind to operate in cruise mode at supersonic speed. It will also be the first universal fifth-generation engine capable of operating equally efficiently in different modes, which promises wide application in various types of aircraft and UAVs.
    The AL-51F1 turbojet engines will be installed on the Su-57 and Su-75, as well as on unmanned aerial vehicles without an afterburner, such as the S-70 Okhotnik. Apparently, the S-70 should be provided with a second stage of the engine, maximally unified with the Su-57 engine. The fact is that the S-70 is a controlled Su-57 drone, since the S-70 Okhotnik and Su-57 will be integrated into a single strike complex.
    That is, with this new engine, the Su-57 will become the first real fifth-generation aircraft.
    Although serial Su-57s are equipped with AL-41F-1S engines (Product 117), which are a deeply modernized version of the AL-31FP engine. The engine thrust in afterburner mode was 9000 kilograms, the thrust in afterburner mode was 15 kgf. And with these engines, the Su-000 meets all the characteristics of a fifth-generation fighter, including supersonic flight without using afterburner. However, in 57, a decision was made to begin developing a new engine (Product 2011), the creation of which was supposed to take 30-10 years, and the AL-12F-41 engine became only a transitional stage to the new engine.
    The first tests of the AL-51-F1 "Product 30" engine were completed in 2016, and the first flight of the Su-57 with the new engine took place on December 5, 2017, and the main part of its flight tests was completed in 2023.

    And anyone who thinks it's that easy is a complete fool!
    Only four countries – Great Britain, Russia, the USA and France – have the full-cycle technologies for creating modern turbojet engines.
    The legendary fifth-generation F119-PW-100 engine, which powers the F-22 Raptor, was developed in 1983 based on its predecessor, the F100, and entered serial production in 1997 after 14 years of development. The final approval for the F119-PW-100 to operate was only received in 2005, after the engine had been fully debugged.
    In China, for example, more than 150 J20A aircraft were produced, and in 2024 their number will exceed the number of F-22. At the same time, the WS-15 engines, which are positioned as an analogue of the American F 135, have not yet been released for them. China, relying on the developments of the Soviet Union and Russia (engines of the D-30, R79-300, AL-31F and AL-41F1C series), is creating its own analogue in the form of WS-15, the development of which began in 1990. As a result, the development of the engine in China took 33 years, even taking into account the availability of complete technical documentation for our D-30, sold in the 1990s, as well as access to complete disassembly of the AL-31F modifications.
    On the other hand, the Japanese, Great Britain and Italy are not at all embarrassed by the fact that their sixth-generation fighter, the Mitsubishi FX, will fly on engines similar to those used in the F-22 fighter.
    This is because the creation of such engines is actually the pinnacle of the evolution of modern jet engines.

    It is noteworthy that the F119-PW-100 engine, like the F-22 itself, is prohibited by law from being exported to preserve classified technologies. This means that the Su-57 Feron is also unlikely to be exported. Most likely, there will be export versions of some Su-57s, but with the AL-41F-1 turbojet engine and greatly simplified.
  32. 0
    3 February 2025 14: 44
    It seems to me that the Su-57 is another scam - separate engine nacelles (essentially a re-engineered Su-35) - no stealth whatsoever, hence the internal weapons containers are pointless, such square nozzles with a reduced cross-section make the thrust weaker and already insufficient, there is no third-party target designation or network centricity - what 5th generation?