Red flags over Kiel

54
Red flags over Kiel

By mid-1917, a stalemate had developed on the fronts of the imperialist First World War, with casualties numbering in the millions. Discontent with the war was growing among both the military and civilian populations of both warring parties, who were experiencing acute food shortages and a decline in their standard of living. Cases of fraternization between soldiers of the warring armies, mutinies, and desertions became more frequent. Thus, after an unsuccessful offensive in April 1917, which undermined the morale of the French troops, mutinies began in them, affecting 54 divisions, and 20 people deserted. Revolutionary, socialist, and national liberation movements were spreading more and more.

The German Imperial Army did not stand aside either. fleet (Kaiserliche Marine). The entry of the fleet into the age of steam and electricity required a large number of literate specialists among the sailors and petty officers, as well as "technical" officers, most of whom came from the middle class. At the same time, the overwhelming majority of line officers were still representatives of the nobility and wealthy strata of society. All this led to an increase in social tension in the fleet.



The navy was subject to the Prussian drill, which was degrading to human dignity and often quite senseless. Often at night, officers liked to amuse themselves with the so-called masquerade: the crew was driven out of their bunks and a competition was held - who would change from one uniform to another faster.

Although the large ships were mostly moored, the food of their crews was deteriorating with each passing day, as was the case with the rest of the German population: the sailors were eating dried vegetables, dried fish, potato bread and barley coffee, most of which had probably been stored earlier for long voyages. And the rations were becoming increasingly meager. All this contrasted with the luxurious food in the officers' mess.

When sailors on the cruiser Nuremberg tried to complain about the insufficient bread ration, the senior officer mockingly replied: "In that case, you will have to starve! And if any of you die of hunger, I solemnly promise to bury him with full military honors."

The more left-wing Independent Social Democratic Party of Germany (USPD), founded in 1917, gained increasing influence among the sailors, along with the moderate, conciliatory Social Democratic Party (SPD). At the end of 1918, the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) was created on the basis of the Spartacus League, which was part of the USPD, under the leadership of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht.

On the evening of July 10, 1917, the battleship Friedrich der Grosse left Kiel Bay for the Baltic Sea for routine exercises. The sailors, exhausted by combat alerts, received a well-deserved "reward" - for breakfast there was only barley coffee. The hungry sailors demanded normal food, and when they were refused, they collectively refused to stand watch, which was the first such case in stories Kaiser's fleet. The ship's commander was forced to give in to the sailors' demands.

On July 19, the crew of the battleship Prinzregent Luitpold refused to eat worm soup and went on strike. On July 20, 117 crew members of the light cruiser Pillau, which was moored in Wilhelmshaven, went ashore and organized a rally, protesting the deprivation of their vacations.


Battleship "Prince Regent Luitpold"


Stokers of the battleship Prinz Regent Luitpold

In the following days, the movement of the sailors of the Kaiser's navy became increasingly widespread and organized, and its ties with the USPD grew stronger. The recognized leaders of this growing movement were Albin Köbis and Max Reichpietsch.


Max Reichpich (left) and Albin Köbis

On August 1, a serious incident occurred on the battleship Prinzregent Luitpold. The officer on watch of the third stoker watch, instead of the scheduled free time, announced drill exercises. In response, 49 stokers went ashore without permission, for which 15 of them were arrested upon returning on board.

In response, the ship's crew decided to hold a protest demonstration demanding the release of their comrades. On the morning of August 2, about 700 members of the battleship's crew moved to the city, where, under the leadership of Albin Köbis and his group, a four-hour rally was held demanding the release of those arrested and an end to the war.

The harshest reprisals followed. On August 26, the naval tribunal sentenced Albin Köbis, Max Reichpietsch and four others to death for “acts of treason” and “incitement to mutiny,” 19 sailors were sentenced to prison terms of 5 to 15 years, and another 56 people to up to 10 years. Hundreds of people were demoted and sent to the front to penal battalions. The naval commander approved only two death sentences: Max Reichpietsch and Albin Köbis were shot.


Albin Köbis on a GDR postage stamp, 1967.

Between July 6 and August 16, 1917, many cases of disobedience, mass desertion, hunger strikes and acts of sabotage, involving more than five thousand people, were recorded on board the battleships Friedrich der Grosse, Prinz Regent Luitpold, Westfalen, König Albert and several others, as well as the cruiser Pillau.

The leaders of the sailors' protests established contact with the USPD faction in the Reichstag and began collecting signatures in support of peace without annexations and contributions, which they planned to present at the International Socialist Conference in Stockholm.

Although the German fleet's Operation Albion to capture the Russian Moonsund Islands was successful, Germany's future was not always decided in its favor at the front. The allies, Austria-Hungary and Turkey, were eliminated from the game.

On 24 October 1918, the commander of the High Seas Fleet (Hochseeflotte), Admiral Hipper, issued Order 269/AI, which was confirmed on 27 October by Admiral Scheer, Chief of Staff of the German Admiralty. By force of circumstances, this order changed the fate of Europe.


Vice Admiral Hipper


Admiral Scheer

The main reason for developing the operation was the armistice negotiations that began on October 5, 1918, between German Chancellor Prince Maximilian of Baden and US President Woodrow Wilson. One of the preliminary conditions of the negotiations put forward by the Allies was the cessation of Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare. The issue of internment of the main body of the German fleet was also considered. On October 14, Wilson declared that a possible armistice should be followed by the capitulation of the German armed forces.

In response, Admiral Reinhard Scheer declared that the fleet did not need an armistice and decided to conduct a decisive naval operation against the British fleet. According to the plan, the light forces of the fleet (cruisers and destroyers), operating off the coast of Flanders and in the Thames estuary, were to lure the main forces of the British Grand Fleet into the southern part of the North Sea, where 25 German U-boats deployed in six screens would await them. The British fleet, thinned out by torpedo attacks from submarines, would collide with the High Seas Fleet and suffer heavy losses. Data on the movements of British ships was supposed to be obtained from a screen of patrolling Zeppelins (German airships).


Proposed Fleet Actions Under Order 269/AI

The plan was clearly adventurous, given the British more than two-fold superiority in battleships and cruisers and three-fold superiority in destroyers and torpedo boats, and the lack of complete confidence that the British admirals would actually take the bait. As it turned out later, the Royal Navy command correctly foresaw the enemy's intentions, which was also facilitated by the fact that the British managed to crack the enemy's codes.

The crew members of the Hochseeflotte ships understood this very well, and therefore the number of those willing to lay down their lives for the Kaiser sharply decreased, as it had already for the Tsar-father and the "democratic" presidents on other sides of the fronts. Both revolutions in Russia also played a huge, and perhaps decisive, role.

Against this background, the statements about the almost "noble" goal of this imperialist war and the vile machinations of the Bolsheviks (delivered in sealed carriages with millions of gold German marks) who stabbed the Russian army in the back, which are being spread not only in our liberal media circles but sometimes also at official levels, sound strange. These are direct quotes from Nazi sources about the death of Germany! I wonder who, in their opinion, paid for the revolution in Germany? The English? The French? Ah, world Jewry.

In readiness for this “decisive” operation, the High Seas Fleet assembled at Wilhelmshaven. According to the plan, the fleet was to set out to sea and engage the enemy on the evening of October 31, 1918. During the movement of the ships, several hundred sailors attempted to desert, and there were a number of cases of disobedience and sabotage. Some of the crews of the battleships Thuringen and Helgoland revolted, which was only stopped by the threat of using weapons When the destroyers approached, the participants in the riots were arrested and sent to prison.

Given the obvious disloyalty of a large number of sailors, the naval command had to abandon its plans. In order to avoid the "spread of revolutionary contagion," the squadrons of large warships were dispersed to different bases. The third squadron was ordered to return to Kiel. The squadron consisted of five battleships and 5000 crew members. During the squadron's passage through the Kiel Canal, another 200 or so mutineers were arrested and sent to local military prisons. The total number of those arrested exceeded 600 (according to other sources, 800) people. By arresting the sailors, the command hoped to restore "law and order" to the fleet.

At this time, the senior naval commander in Kiel and commander of the 4th squadron of battleships was Vice-Admiral Wilhelm Anton Souchon, who also held the rank of admiral of the Turkish fleet. He became famous for the breakthrough of the Goeben and Breslau from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and had a significant impact on the entry of the Ottoman Empire into the war. Until 1917, he led the actions of the German-Turkish fleet against Russia in the Black Sea.

On October 31, the ships arrived in Kiel, and the following day, 250 representatives of the secret sailors' councils created on the ships, having established contacts with both social democratic parties, trade unions and soldiers of the army units, gathered at the headquarters of the local trade unions and adopted a resolution demanding the immediate release of the arrested crew members of the ships. The demand was rejected by the naval command, but this only complicated the situation. At a rally held on November 2, a decision was made to hold a large-scale demonstration on the streets of Kiel the following day. This was followed by more arrests of the instigators - more than 60 people were seized on board the battleship Markgraf and sent to a coastal prison.

One of the main leaders of the growing revolutionary movement in the German navy, as well as among the workers of Kiel, was Karl Artelt (1890–1981). As a teenager, he began his career in mechanical engineering. In 1908, he joined the SPD, and later became a member of the USPD. In the spring of 1919, he was one of the founders of the Communist Party of Germany, and in 1946 he became one of the initiators of the unification of the KPD and SPD into the SED (Socialist Unity Party of Germany). In the GDR, he was unofficially called the "Red Admiral".


"Red Admiral" Karl Artelt, GDR, 1964

From 1908, K. Artelt sailed on German merchant ships, and in 1911–1913 he was called up to the Kaiser's Navy and served on ships of the East Asian Squadron, where he witnessed the revolution in China. After the outbreak of the war, he was called up to the navy again and served at the shipyard (1. Werftdivision) in Kiel. In 1917, for revolutionary activities and participation in organizing a strike of shipyard workers, he was sentenced to 6 months in prison and then sent to the front to a penal battalion, but as a valuable specialist he was returned to Kiel, where he served in the repair shops of the 1st torpedo boat division.


Karl Altert with comrades, Kiel 1914

On the morning of November 3, Souchon, having assessed the situation, demanded that the battleships of the 3rd squadron be withdrawn from Kiel immediately, but its commander declared that he could not do this, since his orders would obviously not be followed. In the afternoon of the same day, between five and seven thousand sailors, soldiers and workers, including women, gathered for a rally. The speakers, the USPD activists Karl Artelt and Lothar Popp, the leader of the local trade unions, called for peace, civil liberties, the release of prisoners and an improvement in the food situation of the common people. Then the rally participants began a protest march, heading for the local military prison. Along the way, weapons were seized from one of the army barracks.


Revolutionary sailors in Kiel, November 3, 1918.

Around seven o'clock in the evening, the demonstrators, whose number had reached 20 thousand, encountered an armed barrier. The officer commanding them demanded that they disperse and, having received a refusal, ordered them to open fire. Seven demonstrators died, 29 were wounded, and the rest dispersed. An officer was also wounded by gunshot.

Admiral Souchon thought that the situation was now in his hands, but he was deeply mistaken. On November 4, 10 people took part in the demonstration. Sailors from most of Kiel's naval units stood under red banners. A train with an army unit that arrived at Souchon's request to suppress the mutiny was surrounded by sailors, the soldiers were disarmed without offering resistance.


Demonstration in Kiel, early November 1918.

In the barracks of the torpedo boat division, the first Council of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies in Germany was elected under the chairmanship of Karl Artelt, and demands were developed for the German government, which Artelt handed over to Wilhelm Souchon:

1. Abdication of the Hohenzollerns.
2. The abolition of martial law in Germany.
3. Release of all prisoners of the Third Squadron.
4. Release of all prisoners who took part in the 1917 mutiny.
5. Release of all political prisoners.
6. Introduction of universal suffrage for men and women.
7. Immediate conclusion of peace without annexations and contributions, with recognition of the right of all peoples to self-determination.

The result of the negotiations was the release of the arrested sailors. This was also facilitated by the order received by Souchon from Berlin not to use weapons under any circumstances, except for self-defense and the protection of the civilian population. The admiral refused to consider political demands as they were not within his competence.

On November 4, by order of Admiral Hipper, the rebellious Third Squadron, with the exception of the battleship König, which was in dock, moved from Kiel to Travemünde, but about 1000 sailors did not return to the ships. By evening, almost all of Kiel was under the control of the rebels. At a meeting of representatives of sailors, soldiers and workers, the "14 Kiel Points" were adopted, one of which stated that "any decisions of the command will be valid only after approval by the Soldiers' Council."

On November 5, the Supreme Soldiers' Council of this naval base was created in Kiel, headed by Altert. Red flags were flying over all administrative buildings and warships. At the same time, blood was spilled on board the battleship "Konig". The ship's commander and two officers stood up to defend the imperial naval flag. In the ensuing shootout, a sailor and both officers were killed, the commander was seriously wounded.


Revolutionary sailors of the German fleet, November 1918

For some time, small pockets of resistance by the Kaiser's supporters remained in the city; 10 people died in shootouts with patrols of sailors and workers, and another twenty were wounded. These were the last victims of the Kiel Uprising.


Revolutionary sailors in Wilhelmshaven, November 6, 1918.

In support of the revolutionary sailors, the workers declared a general strike, and Soviets of Workers' Deputies were created everywhere, taking control of the entire city administration and police. The revolutionary movement quickly spread to the coastal cities and on November 9 reached Berlin, where armed sailors appeared on the streets.


Revolution in Germany 1918-1919

This is how the November Revolution began in Germany. On November 9, Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated the throne, and the Social Democrat Philipp Scheidemann proclaimed a republic, becoming the first prime minister of the so-called "Weimar Republic". On November 11, an armistice was signed in Compiegne with the Entente countries, and the bloody First World War ended.

Sources of

1. David Woodward. The Collapse of Power. Mutiny in the High Seas Fleet. London, 1973
2. Accompanying brochure for the documentary film by Kay Gerdes and Klaus Kuhl “In Kiel ist Revolution!”
3. Sailors' revolt in Kiel (kurkuhl.de)
4. Henke, Helmut. People, Ships, Oceans. Moscow, 1976
5. Internet resources
54 comments
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  1. -1
    27 November 2024 05: 38
    Oh, an article on a topic that is not customary to recall in the Russian Federation. Because it immediately destroys a whole host of myths of propaganda of the "patriotic union of traitorous party members and criminals". About evil social democrats (Bolsheviks) agents of the Kaiser, about the absurdity of Lenin's calculations on revolution in Europe, about the Russian revolution as a purely local phenomenon, etc.
    Moreover, having learned about this, Russian and Ukrainian soldiers who are dying en masse at the front for the amusement of the Western masters of the “patriotic authorities” of the Russian Federation and Ukraine may start having all sorts of “extremist” thoughts: are these the people we are fighting with?
  2. +2
    27 November 2024 06: 24
    It turns out that Parvus held back money for the German revolution and spent it all on the October Revolution. laughing It was only in February 1917 that the Tsar was selflessly overthrown. laughing
    1. +1
      27 November 2024 06: 57
      Quote: parusnik
      It was only in February 1917 that the Tsar was selflessly overthrown.

      Well, they are noble gentry and patriotic bourgeois! Not like the grey-pawed ones... (Sarcasm)
  3. -3
    27 November 2024 07: 33
    Thanks for the article.
    but the money came from the Bolsheviks.
    first the official ones under the terms of the "Brest Peace", and then the revolution, but these seem to be later in the fall
  4. 0
    27 November 2024 08: 02
    The Weimar Republic lasted only eleven years and, as a parliamentary democracy, completely discredited itself, which made it easier for Hitler to seize power.
    The author of the article mentioned world Jewry with some humor, but in vain.
    The main result of the First World War was the destruction of four monarchies, which was what was required, and for the sake of which this entire world slaughter was started.
    1. +2
      27 November 2024 08: 45
      destruction of the four monarchies
      Was it part of the plans of world Jewry? smile
      1. +2
        27 November 2024 08: 53
        Quote: kor1vet1974
        Was it part of the plans of world Jewry?

        Yes, it was necessary to say so - to clear the ground, which was done: the Austro-Hungarian, Ottoman, German and Russian empires collapsed, then chaos began, to put it mildly.
        1. +3
          27 November 2024 09: 05
          Well, all of this collapsed and representatives of world Jewry came to power in these countries and in those that emerged from the ruins? In Russia Lenin and Trotsky, in Georgia Ramishvili, in Turkey Ataturk, in Armenia Katchaznuni, in Ukraine Skoropadsky, then Petliura, in Austria Renner, etc. These are all mercenaries of world Jewry, and Salazar and Mussolini, too, are mercenaries?
  5. +4
    27 November 2024 08: 44
    And who, in their opinion, paid for the revolution in Germany? The English? The French? Ah, world Jewry.
    World Jewry paid for the revolution in the Netherlands in the 16th century, in England in the 17th, in France in the 18th, and in the 19th century it did not have time to pay for the revolutions in Europe and Latin America. Yes, the slave rebellion in Haiti, world Jewry also paid for the rebellion of the sepoys and Mahdists in Sudan. laughing laughing
    1. -1
      27 November 2024 09: 05
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      World Jewry paid for the revolution in the Netherlands in the 16th century, in England in the 17th century, in France in the 18th century.
      World Jewry may not have paid for these revolutions, but it certainly supported them! The Dutch and English Jews were mostly Sephardim, mostly from Spain during the time of Ferdinand and Isabella. They controlled all trade and finance there and did not need any monarchy. Rhineland Jews lived in France and also felt quite comfortable in finance and trade. And monarchy was also alien to them. And the Haiti you mentioned, along with the sepoys, were not given to them for nothing...

      Let me remind you of the story of old Rothschild, who sent his five sons to Naples, Vienna, Frankfurt, Paris and London, where they founded their financial empires and were able to exert significant influence on the rulers of these countries...
      1. +1
        27 November 2024 09: 11
        In Spain, in the 19th century alone, there were five revolutions, was this also the work of world Jewry? In France, in the same 19th century, four were the work of world Jewry? The liberation war in Greece, it clearly could not have happened without Jewish finances? And as for the unification of Italy and Germany, here the Jews definitely tried as a whole kahal.
        1. -1
          27 November 2024 09: 18
          kor1vet1974, I don’t know the internal springs of these revolutions and I am not at all a supporter of the theory world jewish conspiracy, but I know for sure that any revolutions and various kinds of liberation wars are financed by someone and also ideologically supported. And who controls world finances and the main media? And when you answer this question for yourself, everything else will immediately fall away...
          1. 0
            27 November 2024 09: 39
            any revolutions and various kinds of liberation wars are financed by someone and also ideologically supported.
            That is, everything in the world does not happen free of charge, that is, for nothing? It was good in the dark ages, no one financed the barbarian campaigns against the Roman Empire, the Arab conquests, the campaigns of the Vikings, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, etc. But still, who paid for the slave rebellion in Haiti and the sepoy rebellion?
          2. 0
            28 November 2024 14: 31
            If there is no water in the tap -
            Means?)))
          3. 0
            Yesterday, 00: 45
            Quote: Luminman
            but I know for sure that any revolutions and various kinds of liberation wars are financed by someone and also ideologically supported.

            Around 2012 I was at the sorting point of the Russian Post. I had the feeling that if I shouted "Cut the bourgeoisie" and showed it with an example, in an hour all the bosses and not just the highly paid managers would be killed without exception. Sometimes money is not needed for a revolution at all.
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 18: 12
              Quote: gsev
              Sometimes money is not needed for a revolution at all
              Money fuels the enthusiasm of the masses...
      2. 0
        27 November 2024 09: 15
        Quote: Luminman
        Let me remind you of the story of old man Rothschild

        By the way, the English monarchy survived; it was not profitable to eliminate them.
        1. +2
          27 November 2024 09: 21
          Quote: bober1982
          By the way, the English monarchy survived, it was not profitable to eliminate them
          The entire monarchy there is a bunch of costumed scarecrows who decide absolutely nothing. Let them sit in Buckingham Palace and wave their hands to their subjects from the balcony once a year...
    2. 0
      27 November 2024 23: 04
      Haven't you put too much blame on the poor Jews? :-)
  6. -3
    27 November 2024 10: 58
    . the Royal Navy command correctly anticipated the enemy's intentions.

    The crew members of the Hochseeflotte ships understood this very well, and therefore the number of those willing to lay down their lives for the Kaiser sharply decreased, as it had already for the Tsar-father and the "democratic" presidents on other sides of the fronts. Both revolutions in Russia also played a huge, and perhaps decisive, role.

    Against this background, sound strange statements spread not only in the circles of our liberal media, but sometimes also at official levels, about the almost “noble” goal of this imperialist war and the vile machinations of the Bolsheviks (delivered in sealed wagons with millions of gold German marks), who struck the Russian army in the back.

    It is precisely the author's absurd statements that sound strange: not the THIEF, whose "noble and lofty" howls the Germans didn't give a damn about (see Brest), but only FEAR of imminent death from hunger, arranged by the allies and from the guns of the allies, i.e. -FEAR of inevitable retribution for what was done and aggression, prompted them to move.

    Before this, EVERYTHING suited them - both the Russian lands and the merciless robbery of Russia under Brest.
    Or will the author show how the noble German proletariat came out in millions for their class-robbing riches in Russia? What? No? The pgoletagies of all the stgans united? lol
    Absolutely the same thing happened again on June 22, 1941 - the same German proletariat joyfully and conscientiously destroyed Russian workers in the hope of robbing them.

    Moreover, they mercilessly and correctly crushed their VORs, analogs of the Bolshevik Apfelbaums - all sorts of Roses, Luxembourgs and Liebknechts.
    1. +2
      27 November 2024 11: 15
      Quote: Olgovich
      and they correctly crushed all sorts of roses, Luxembourgs and Liebknechts.

      Well, after all, Samara is an ancient patriarchal city, you can go for a walk along Karl Liebknecht Street, then go past the intersection of Lieutenant Schmidt Street and turn left onto Konnoarmeyskaya Street, go through and turn left onto Shevchenko Street.
      1. -3
        27 November 2024 11: 47
        Quote: bober1982
        Well, after all, Samara is an ancient patriarchal city, you can go for a walk along Karl Liebknecht Street, then go past the intersection of Lieutenant Schmidt Street and turn left onto Konnoarmeyskaya Street, go through and turn left onto Shevchenko Street

        Instead of Samara you can put any Russian city - and you will walk along... the same streets request ...
        1. 0
          Yesterday, 00: 56
          Quote: Olgovich
          Instead of Samara you can put any Russian city - and you will walk along... the same streets

          So these streets were named by those who organized the construction on this site. What's wrong with that? In the new microdistricts built under the oligarchs' rule, the streets are given different names.
          1. 0
            Yesterday, 08: 32
            Quote: gsev
            This is how these streets were named by those who organized the construction on this site.

            what nonsense?
            These streets were built long before the comics and had their own original names; no Schmidts or Liebknitzs had anything to do with them.
    2. +2
      27 November 2024 11: 35
      Moreover, they mercilessly and correctly crushed their VORs, analogs of the Bolshevik Apfelbaums - all sorts of Roses, Luxembourgs and Liebknechts.

      So it was right that they "crushed" those who tried to stop the "robbery and destruction of Russians" because they demanded to stop the war?
      What a consciousness unclouded by reason.
      1. +3
        27 November 2024 11: 48
        This character loves to distort and conceal. So, by and large, if the German Social Democrats hadn't sold out the revolution, look, Hitler wouldn't have been around in 1933. But no, like he's a patriot, he immediately remembers 1941.
      2. -4
        27 November 2024 11: 52
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        е

        I don’t communicate with the person - the Vile Skeptic - who called today’s Russia a fascist country on 19.11.2024/XNUMX/XNUMX, I’m disgusted.
        1. +4
          27 November 2024 12: 24
          1) You are lying
          2) You appeal to the personality, not to the arguments - this is a logical error (manipulation)
          Whether you communicate with me or not, having found a convenient pretext built on lies, will not change the fact that you are Jesuitizing - supposedly you care about the "robbery and destruction of Russians", but at the same time you welcome the fact that you "crushed" those who tried to stop the "robbery and destruction of Russians", because they demanded to stop the war.
          1. -1
            27 November 2024 18: 27
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            those who tried to stop the "robbery and destruction of Russians" because they demanded that the war be stopped.

            What nonsense! Not to stop the war, but to turn it into a civil war, which, by the way, caused significantly greater human and material losses in Russia than WW1... So you are manipulating empty talk... request
            Quote: Olgovich
            I am disgusted by the one who called today's Russia a fascist country on 19.11.2024/XNUMX/XNUMX.

            And so the Russophobe's guts were revealed... request
            1. +1
              27 November 2024 23: 31
              What nonsense! Not to stop the war, but to turn it into a civil war, which, by the way, caused significantly greater human and material losses in Russia than WW1... So you are manipulating empty talk...

              Liebknecht and Luxemburg the government at anti-war rallies in Germany in 1915-1916 they put forward demands not to end the war, but to turn it into a civil war? Are you able to realize the absurdity of your words? At least sometimes, before getting involved in something, try to do something unusual but necessary - think. Perhaps you will like it and you will start doing it on a regular basis.
              And now I will explain the stupidity of your brother in mind, Olgovich.
              German soldiers are killing Russians and robbing Russia.
              In Germany, those who demand that the German government end the war are being persecuted.
              If Germany ended the war, German soldiers would stop killing Russians and robbing Russia.
              Your brother in mind believes it was right that those who tried to prevent the killing of Russian soldiers and the plundering of Russia were persecuted.
              And so the Russophobe's guts were revealed...

              You decided to sign that you consume any nonsense, including slander, without checking the information, as long as it corresponds to your personal beliefs. You succeeded.
              1. -1
                28 November 2024 13: 19
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Are you able to realize the absurdity of your words?

                Attempt not counted! bully I wrote about Russia and VIL!
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Not to stop the war, but to turn it into a civil war, which, by the way, caused significantly greater human and material losses losses in Russia, than 1 MB... So you manipulate with empty talk..

                so you are lying and talking empty talk request
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                If Germany ended the war, German soldiers would stop killing Russians and robbing Russia.

                Are you really that stupid? Or do you consider others fools? However, one lady, at least by her nickname, has already voiced the new State Department manual - peace at any price in Ukraine, which echoes the Bolshevik thesis well, it's just that the Bolsheviks were stupider and immediately revealed the plan - GV!
                So it looks like you are not stupid, but an enemy of Russia and a Russophobe! request
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                without checking the information,

                you can't check everything, and the point is for you personally - it's in your style - see above...
                1. -1
                  28 November 2024 14: 29
                  Attempt not counted! bully I wrote about Russia and VIL!

                  I know. All that's left is to tell you why you wrote "about Russia and VIL" if you were talking about Germany and German socialists trying to stop the war.
                  so you are lying and talking empty talk

                  Seriously? Is it okay that you quote your own words as if they were mine?
                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  Not to stop the war, but to turn it into a civil war, which, by the way, caused significantly greater human and material losses in Russia than WW1... So you are manipulating empty talk.

                  Olgovich wrote about Germany, I wrote to him in response about Germany, you got into a conversation about Germany with accusations that you argued... with Russia. Have you seen the film "Seryozha"? There is a phrase-question about you.
                  However, one lady, at least by her nickname, has already voiced the new State Department manual - peace at any cost in Ukraine, which resonates well with the Bolshevik thesis, it's just that the Bolsheviks were stupider and immediately revealed the plan - GV!
                  So it looks like you are not stupid, but an enemy of Russia and a Russophobe!

                  An appeal to personality, not to arguments.
                  Please explain why, when Germany ends the war, Germany does not end the war. belay Well, you don't agree with this, apparently.
                  you can't check everything, and the point is for you personally - it's in your style

                  I repeat, you would find yourself in extrajudicial troikas
                  1. 0
                    28 November 2024 14: 35
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    Please explain why, when Germany ends the war, Germany does not end the war.

                    You don't understand such banalities? bully Remember - what did the Brest Peace Treaty lead to in Russia? The war stopped - no! On the contrary - the Germans occupied huge lands and the war began again, including the GW... Why, haven't you thought about it? The answer is banal - we need not just peace, but a compromise that suits large countries... request
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    you would find yourself in extra-judicial troikas

                    Are you being rude again, Russophobe? There is a strong understanding that you found yourself serving in the CIPSO or similar institutions of the Democratic Party... Well, you are very much in their trend... request
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2024 15: 34
                      Remember what the Brest Peace Treaty led to in Russia?

                      And on the German side, it was the socialists who concluded it?
                      What is needed is not just peace, but a compromise that suits the big countries...

                      Naturally.
                      Are you being rude again, Russophobe?

                      It's funny to hear this from a person who puts a label on every message.
                      There is a strong understanding that you found yourself in the service of the Central Institute of Socialist Policy or similar institutions of the Democratic Party... Well, you are very much in their trend...

                      Maybe it's worth considering the issue from the point of view of the problem of "understanding"? Due to bias. Everything will immediately fall into place.
                      1. 0
                        28 November 2024 16: 40
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And on the German side, it was the socialists who concluded it?

                        What's the difference? Formally, Mussolini and Hitler started out as socialists...
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        the question is from the point of view of the problem of "understanding"?

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I repeat, you would find yourself in extrajudicial troikas

                        pay attention to yourself request
            2. -1
              28 November 2024 10: 14
              Quote: DrEng02
              and transfer it to the Civil War, which, by the way, caused significantly greater human and material losses in Russia than WW1... So you are manipulating empty talk.

              it's all true: V. I. Lenin wrote that
              joined the Bolshevik slogan: “…the transformation of the imperialist war into a civil war…”
              and in Russia, and in Germany, and EVERYWHERE - for social revolution everywhere.. What did the GV lead to in Russia - you wrote. What would it lead to in the world - it's scary to even imagine...

              And they have already destroyed it after the end of the war, which saved the lives of, I think, millions of people.
              Quote: DrEng02
              And so the Russophobe's guts were revealed...

              don't doubt it - it's not for nothing that the liar is AFRAID to repeat that wild comment that he has been repeatedly asked to make publicly .
              1. -2
                28 November 2024 10: 47
                it's all true: V. I. Lenin wrote that
                joined the Bolshevik slogan: “…the transformation of the imperialist war into a civil war…”

                Wikipedia victim. Liebknecht was a member of the Internationale group, whose political platform was Luxemburg's theses. If you find "transformation of imperialist war into civil war" in these theses, come back. Speaking of slogans, Luxemburg used a phrase in her anti-militarist articles of 1912-1914 that sounds like "War on war".
                It's scary to even imagine what this would lead to in the world...

                Who is afraid? Weapons manufacturers? lol
                German soldiers are killing Russians and robbing Russia.
                In Germany, those who demand that the German government end the war are being persecuted.
                If Germany ended the war, German soldiers would stop killing Russians and robbing Russia.
                You think it was right to persecute those who tried to prevent the killing of Russian soldiers and the plundering of Russia.
                He is AFRAID to repeat that wild comment that he has been repeatedly asked to make publicly.

                The burden of proof lies with the approver.
                Therefore, I do not owe you anything, you can repeat my comment yourself and present it as an argument for your words.
              2. -2
                28 November 2024 11: 26
                А destroyed it after the end of the war, which saved the lives of, I think, millions of people.

                The exterminators (Pabst, Souchon, Runge, Stiege, both Pflugk-Harttungs), being fascists, like other fascists of the Third Reich, undoubtedly saved "the lives of millions of people". Especially in our country.
                1. +1
                  28 November 2024 13: 22
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  being fascists, like other fascists of the Third Reich

                  How illiterate you are - there were Nazis in Germany, and fascists were in Italy... request
                  1. -1
                    28 November 2024 17: 48
                    How illiterate you are - there were Nazis in Germany, and fascists were in Italy...

                    What kind of kindergarten is this?
                    Semirenka does not cease to be an apple just because Antonovka is an apple.
                    P.S. And your kindergarten is even more ridiculous for people who know that your supposedly smart comments did not stop the above-mentioned individuals from calling themselves fascists.
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2024 18: 10
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      What kind of kindergarten is this?

                      only you ... request
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Semirenka does not cease to be an apple just because Antonovka is an apple.

                      using your analogy they can all be called socialists - that's more accurate... request
                      look at modern socialists, for example in Germany - essentially the same Nazis... hi
                2. 0
                  28 November 2024 13: 37
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  nonentity

                  what an annoying, obsessive, itchy gnat with oh!. It's at the door, it's at the window...

                  Я I don't communicate I am disgusted by the person - Vile Skepticism - who called today's Russia a fascist country on 19.11.2024/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                  Leave me alone.
                3. 0
                  28 November 2024 13: 50
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  The exterminators (Pabst, Souchon, Runge, Stiege, both Pflugk-Harttungs), being fascists,

                  By the way, there are other versions of these events, for example, that Rosa and Karl were betrayed by a certain Radek, and that the article by Rosa Luxemburg, “Dictatorship and Democracy,” with the following words, was to blame:
                  "The dictatorship of a dozen party leaders, even outstanding ones, will dry up life in the Soviets to blind ugliness. Today in Russia there is not even a dictatorship of the working class, but there is a dictatorship of a clique - a handful of party leaders"
                  Or in another work:
                  "Without general elections, unlimited freedom of the press and assembly, free struggle of opinions, life in any public institution dies down, it turns into a semblance of life, the active element of which remains one
                  only bureaucracy. Public life is gradually dying out, several dozen party leaders conduct and rule with irrepressible energy and boundless idealism, among them a dozen outstanding minds actually lead, and the elite of the working class is called to meetings from time to time to applaud the speeches of the leaders, unanimously approve the proposed resolutions. So, in essence, this is the management of a clique; true, it is a dictatorship, but not a dictatorship of the proletariat, but a dictatorship of a handful of politicians, i.e., a dictatorship in a purely bourgeois sense, in the sense of the rule of the Jacobins (transfer
                  the timing of the convocation of congresses of the Soviets: from once every three months to once every six months). Moreover: such conditions must lead to the savagery of public life - attempts,
                  arrows of hostages, etc. This is a powerful objective law, the operation of which no party can escape"
                  And she was right, Trotsky also recognized that she was right, though later, when he himself found himself in the meat grinder... hi
                  1. 0
                    28 November 2024 16: 43
                    The problem with understanding historical events is that you want to understand them quickly. Therefore, kindly selected and replicated paragraphs from volumes of materials do a disservice.
                    It is impossible to judge Luxemburg's attitude to the revolution in Russia from her notes from early 1918, ignoring the transformation of her attitude throughout the year. She wrote her last letters to Lenin literally a month before her murder, in December 2018.
                    By the way, there are other versions of these events.

                    There is always enough of this stuff. There is little professional revisionism, mountains of unprofessional, and a cat's breadth of honesty.
                    A certain Radek betrayed Rosa and Karl

                    Radek was captured a few weeks after the murder, so who could he ask an interesting question to?
                    1. 0
                      28 November 2024 16: 48
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      It is impossible to judge Luxemburg's attitude to the revolution in Russia from her notes from early 1918, ignoring the transformation of her attitude over the course of the year.

                      How is it there: here we read, there we don’t read, here we wrap fish... What is written with a pen request
                      If you read VIL in time - it's also different... request
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      there's not a lot of honest stuff.

                      it's always like this in party sciences... request
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      that he could ask someone an interesting question.

                      if at the right moment interests converge and then diverge - nothing new request
                      1. 0
                        28 November 2024 17: 07
                        How is it there: here we read, there we don’t read, here we wrap fish...

                        So you just demonstrated this principle by showing notes from the beginning of 1918 and not showing further ones.
                        And we need to: read here, and read here.
                        If you read VIL in time - it's also different...

                        Naturally.
                        it's always like this in party sciences...

                        This is not a question of the "partisanship" of the sciences, but of the "partisanship" of the revisionists.
                        if at the right moment interests converge and then diverge - nothing new

                        The point is that they did not disperse in 1919. Therefore, one could allow for "surrender under duress" in the version with Radek, but as I wrote above, he was arrested later. I don't know such a version, who put it forward?
                      2. 0
                        28 November 2024 17: 20
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        and without showing further ones.

                        I proved my thesis, nothing more request I don't see any point in sorting out intrigues that are more than a hundred years old... request
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This is not a question of the "partisanship" of the sciences, but of the "partisanship" of the revisionists.

                        Not at all, it is a question of interpretation of facts in party sciences, it depends on the side... request
                        Ohm's law is the same here and in England, but the fact of the SVO is interpreted differently... request
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I don’t know this version, who put it forward?

                        enjoy ...
                        https://litrossia.ru/item/4711-oldarchive/
                      3. 0
                        28 November 2024 17: 25
                        to put it more scientifically:
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/diktatura-nad-proletariatom-kriticheskaya-otsenka-sovetskogo-opyta-v-nasledii-r-lyuksemburg/viewer
                      4. -1
                        28 November 2024 17: 44
                        to put it more scientifically:
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/diktatura-nad-proletariatom-kriticheskaya-otsenka-sovetskogo-opyta-v-nasledii-r-lyuksemburg/viewer

                        Stop these frantic attempts to find at least something.
                        It's getting worse and worse. Your link doesn't include a version about Russian socialists' involvement in the murder of Luxemburg and Radek.
                      5. -2
                        28 November 2024 17: 35
                        I proved my thesis, nothing more

                        Which one? With "another version"?
                        Not proven.
                        depends on the side...

                        This is the "partisanship" of the revisionists.
                        enjoy ...
                        https://litrossia.ru/item/4711-oldarchive/

                        You operate with SUCH sources?! belay
                        This is a dream of reason, not a version. History, like any science, has its own methodological base. Which allows us to differentiate between versions and fantasies.
                      6. 0
                        28 November 2024 17: 44
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This is the "partisanship" of the revisionists.

                        Not at all! Stop using stupid terms like revisionist in vain... this is simply a supporter of "political and scientific trends that revise some teachings, theories, etc." In other words, a real scientist, not a loyal Leninist... request
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Do you operate with SUCH sources?

                        How are they worse than others?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        History, like any science,

                        History is a party science! That's why historians constantly lie about modern history and rewrite the new one to suit the authorities... bully
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Which allows us to distinguish between versions and fantasies

                        they even lie about feel Tsarevich Alexei, what about something closer...
                      7. 0
                        28 November 2024 17: 54
                        How are they worse than others?

                        I've lost interest in you. Maybe for a while. But definitely now. You can't have a normal conversation when the person doesn't even understand the basics.
                      8. 0
                        28 November 2024 18: 08
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        when a person doesn't even understand the basics.

                        or maybe he just sees further than you? feel
                        And so - good luck... hi
  7. +2
    27 November 2024 17: 11
    Everything is like in a mirror adjusted for one year. If you read the history of our revolution, everything is similar even in photographs.