On the use of the 10-dm/45 gun model 1892 as the main caliber of Russian battleships

196
On the use of the 10-dm/45 gun model 1892 as the main caliber of Russian battleships


Some errors


В previous article I pointed out that the armored cruiser "Azuma" was protected by Krupp armor. In all honesty, I had serious doubts about this, but Russian-language sources talk specifically about Krupp, and I had no refuting data. Thanks to the respected Igor, writing under the nickname "27091965i", such data appeared - "Azuma" was protected by "Garvey" armor, apparently of improved quality. Thus, we can say that the only armored cruiser of Japan that could carry Krupp armor (and, most likely, did carry it) was "Yakumo".

My second mistake is that I completely forgot to point out an important nuance regarding the turret-like protection of the barbettes of the Fuji-class battleships. They were covered by comparatively light 152 mm armor, which, however, was positioned at a significant angle to the horizon. At close range, 12-inch shells would ricochet off such armor, but as it increased, the deviation from the normal would gradually decrease by the angle of incidence of the shell. Therefore, if in other cases the distances indicated in the tables should be interpreted as "the armor of this ship will be penetrated at this distance or less", then for turret-like protection a different interpretation would be correct - "the armor is penetrated at the specified distance or greater". That is, for example, if for the 12-inch/40 gun mod. 1895 indicates 10 cables, then the Fuji “tower” can be penetrated at any distance, up to a distance of 10 cables, and if you approach closer, there is a risk of ricochet.

"Ten-inch" main caliber


Of course, the 10-inch gun as the main caliber of domestic battleships in the 1890s looks extremely strange. It is well known that before the appearance of the 10-inch/45 gun model 1892, the Russian imperial fleet was not inclined to "smaller". In 1872, the construction of "Pyotr Velikiy" was started, which received 12-inch guns, and it was this caliber that became classic for our battleships. Since the early 80s of the XIX century, Russia was looking for the optimal type of armored ship for squadron combat, the projects were very different. There were "six-barreled" "Ekaterina II" for storming the Straits, there were Baltic battleships-rams of the "Emperor Alexander II" type, there was "Navarin", whose four pipes resembled an inverted stool, as well as relatively small battleships "Twelve Apostles" and "Sisoy Velikiy".



After a decade of searching in the Baltic, the Poltava-class squadron battleships and the Black Sea Tri Svyatitelya were laid down, which at that time could rightfully be considered, if not the strongest, then one of the strongest battleships in the world. And all of them carried 12-inch guns as their main caliber, which were constantly being improved: not even counting the guns of the Pyotr Velikiy, from the 12-inch/30 artillery system of 1877, capable of accelerating a 331,7 kg projectile to 570 m/s, to the 12-inch/40 gun of 1895, capable of giving the same projectile an initial velocity of 792 m/s.

And suddenly - an incomprehensible decision about unification with the land forces artillery and the move to a 10-inch caliber, which was justified by the army's requirement to retain the ability to manually load the gun. I didn't dig deep history creation of the 10-inch gun model 1892, but I can assume that the main leitmotif of its adoption into service was banal savings combined with the desire of the fleet to obtain battleships that, at the cost of a certain weakening of combat power, would receive relatively high speed and the ability to conduct cruising operations.

The economy, as it usually happens, led to the fact that the ten-inch guns did not work out from the start. As follows from the Journal of the Artillery Committee No. 401, Lieutenant Colonel Brink drew up two projects for a 10-inch gun 45 calibers long. In one project, the gun consisted of 5 layers, and the "elastic limit in the shell" was to be 2500 atmospheres. In the second project, the gun consisted of only 4 layers, and the corresponding elastic limit was to reach 3100 atmospheres. The MTK was satisfied with both options, leaving the final choice to the Artillery Committee of the Main Artillery Directorate. The latter, of course, chose the "four-layer" artillery system, because it was cheaper, and recommended that the fleet order it. As for the greater strength of steel required for a "four-layer" gun, AK GAU took this into account, but considered that the Obukhov plant was well equipped and would easily meet the required parameters. And if something went wrong, a solution was immediately proposed: drill out the casing and add a fifth layer.

The result is well known: the 10-dm/45 gun mod. 1892 was over-lightened, which required reducing the charge and muzzle velocity of the projectile. As a result, three coastal defense battleships and the Peresvet with the Oslyabya received guns capable of accelerating a 225,2 kg projectile only to 693 m/s, and only the Pobeda received heavier and more powerful guns capable of sending a projectile of the same weight into flight with an muzzle velocity of 777 m/s.


However, it cannot be said that interaction with land forces had only a negative impact on the fleet. In those years, our sailors were sure of the need to use lightweight shells, but the 10-inch/45 gun mod. 1892 received quite hefty shells for its caliber of 225,2 kg. But, perhaps, the most important difference from the 12-inch shells (in addition to the caliber, of course) was that the armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of domestic 10-inch/45 guns by the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War were equipped with pyroxylin, and not smokeless powder.

This led to the fact that in terms of explosive content, the Russian 10-inch high-explosive shells were more explosive than the 12-inch shells. It is reliably known that the 10-inch high explosive shell contained 16,39 pounds of pyroxylin (apparently, we are talking about wet pyroxylin), and the 12-inch shell only 14,62 pounds of smokeless powder, which, when converted to the metric system, gives 6 g and 712 g, respectively. However, this advantage was largely offset by the longer fuse action time - the 5-inch high explosive shell was equipped with a Brink tube with a longer action time compared to the 987 model tube.

As for the 10-inch armor-piercing shell, I, unfortunately, do not know the explosive content in it. But the "Album of Naval Artillery Shells" indicates that after the Russo-Japanese War, the 10-inch armor-piercing shell, equipped with an armor-piercing tip, was equipped with 3,89 kg of TNT. It should be said that large-caliber shells with such tips were only slightly short of being ready for the battles at Shantung and Tsushima, despite the fact that the 2nd Pacific Squadron managed to receive a certain number of 6-inch shells with tips. It is also known that the drawing of a 12-inch shell with an armor-piercing tip differed from that without a tip. The body of the "tipless" projectile was longer: 807,7 mm versus 751,8 mm (another 77,5 mm of length was "chosen" by the tip), but the explosive content, oddly enough, was less. The projectile with a tip contained 6 kg of TNT, and without a tip only 5,3 kg.

Assuming that a similar proportion existed for 10-inch shells, and using the data on the conversion of the explosive mass from TNT to pyroxylin, which I used earlier, we find that the armor-piercing "tipless" shell of the "Tsushima" model contained 2,79 kg of wet pyroxylin versus 4,3 kg of pyroxylin, which could be supplied with an armor-piercing 12-inch shell. If the explosive content of the "capless" 10-inch shell corresponded to that of the "capped" shell, then the armor-piercing 10-inch shell contained approximately 3,16 kg of pyroxylin.

I cannot know which of the above figures is more accurate. But I think we will not be mistaken in assuming that the mass of pyroxylin in a 10-inch armor-piercing shell was in the range of 2,79–3,16 kg. At the same time, a 12-inch armor-piercing shell contained about 2,6 kg of smokeless powder. From which it follows that the 10-inch armor-piercing shell, equipped with pyroxylin, also turned out to be more powerful than its 12-inch counterpart, equipped with smokeless powder.

Is it possible to assert on this basis that it was the 10-inch/45 guns of the 1892 model (or at least their version, which the squadron battleship Pobeda was armed with) that better met the tasks of squadron combat than the 12-inch/40 guns of the 1895 model, whose shells were equipped with smokeless powder? Let's take a look.


Mikasa


"Asahi", type "Shikishima"


Fuji type


"Yakumo"


Azuma, Izumo type and Tokiwa type


"Nisshin" and "Kasuga"

Conclusions


As can be seen from the calculations presented above, the 12-inch/40 gun model 1895, when using projectiles with pyroxylin filling and a Brink tube, has obvious advantages over the 10-inch/45 gun model 1892. Moreover, this advantage is significant even in comparison with the improved model with an increased muzzle velocity of the projectile to 777 m/s. When compared with the original version of the ten-inch gun with an muzzle velocity of 693 m/s, it is almost absolute.

Firstly, the better armor penetration of the 12-inch artillery system is obvious. Thus, the citadel of the "Mikasa" in the area of ​​coal pits could be hit by a twelve-inch shell from 20-25 cables, and a 10-inch shell with an initial velocity of 777 m/s - only from 15-21 cables. The barbette of the "Mikasa" with a thickness of 345 mm was penetrated by a twelve-inch shell from 4-11 cables, and a 10-inch shell - with a deviation from the normal of 25 degrees was not penetrated at all, and with an ideal hit - only from 6 cables.

It would seem that 4-5 cables - is there much difference? But in the realities of the Russo-Japanese War, it turned out to be a lot. Let's take, for example, the Asahi, Shikishima and Hatsuse with their 356 mm barbettes made of "improved Harvey" armor. According to calculations, their barbettes could be penetrated by 12-inch Russian shells from a distance of 9-15 cables, but if we assume that the armor was weakened due to the bending of the plate, then at 12-18 cables. Such distances, at least as an exception, were still possible. But up to 8-13 cables, at which in the best case for us we could count on hitting these same barbettes with 10-inch shells - no longer. The Japanese could only get so close to a completely battered battleship, whose main caliber was no longer effective. Thus, the 10-inch armor-piercing shells had virtually no real chance of hitting the barbettes of the Japanese battleships.

The situation could have been improved by armor-piercing tips, thanks to which it was quite possible to increase the destruction zone of the barbette of the same "Shikishima" with a 10-inch shell to 16-19 cables. But, as was said earlier, in 1904-1905 our large-caliber shells were not equipped with them.

All of the above shows that the 12-inch/40 guns of the 1895 model were significantly superior to even the improved 10-inch/45 guns of the 1892 model, which were only issued to the Pobeda. As for the Peresvet, Oslyabya and the coastal defense battleships, the armor-piercing shells of their 10-inch guns could not count on hitting the citadels, turrets and barbettes of the Japanese battleships. In order to have a chance of hitting the Shikishima citadel, these ships had to get closer to the Japanese battleship by no more than 10-15 cables, but even closer would be better.


All of the above was "firstly", now let's move on to "secondly". Even at distances where, according to armor penetration formulas, a 10-inch shell would penetrate the armor belt, the coal, and the bevel, it still had a much smaller chance of hitting the citadel of a Japanese battleship than its 12-inch "brother". This is due to the extremely thick (in comparison with domestic) bevels of Japanese battleships.

As was already described in the previous article, 12-inch shells, hitting with a deviation from the normal of 55 degrees, could penetrate 110-111 mm of armor, while the Mikasa outside the coal pits had a bevel thickness of 114,3 mm. Asahi, Shikishima and Hatsuse were no worse protected: although their bevel was 101,6 mm, it was located at an angle of 30 degrees to the surface, and not 35 degrees, as on the flagship of H. Togo. Accordingly, the deviation from the normal was 60 degrees, and not 55, and the maximum armor penetration for 12-inch shells was 95-96 mm.

In other words, 12-inch shells should have ricocheted off the Japanese battleships' bevels in theory. But given the probabilistic nature of armor penetration and the fact that the tabular armor penetration, although not quite up to par, was still close to the actual bevel thickness, it was quite possible to count on the fact that if not the first, then the second shell that hit the bevel would still penetrate it. But in the case of a 10-inch shell, its caliber plays a cruel joke on it, since the thickness of the armor penetrated in this case directly depends on the caliber of the shell. Thus, if a 12-inch shell could penetrate a 55-110 mm bevel at a 111-degree deviation from the normal, then a 10-inch shell could only penetrate 93-94 mm at a 114,3 mm bevel on the Mikasa. At a 60-degree deviation from the normal, A 10-inch shell could “overcome” 79-80 mm of Japanese battleships with slopes of 101,6 mm.

Not only did a Russian ship armed with 254 mm artillery have to approach at a closer distance to hit the citadel of a Japanese battleship than a battleship with 12-inch guns, but even in this case, hitting the citadel with 10-inch shells was less likely than with 12-inch shells.

Thirdly, a 12-inch armor-piercing shell could carry approximately 1,5 times more pyroxylin than a 10-inch shell.

But not only armor-piercing shells... High-explosive 12-inch shells with pyroxylin filling would also have had a significant advantage over 10-inch shells. As I have said many times before, domestic high-explosive 12-inch shells could well be considered semi-armor-piercing. Their thick bodies, although made of relatively cheap steel, were still capable of penetrating armor half the thickness of their own caliber.

I do not know exactly what kind of steel was used to produce the 10-inch high-explosive shells, but the 12-inch high-explosive shell weighed (roughly) one and a half times more than the 10-inch shell. At the same time, according to “Calculation No. 1 of the cost of shells and other items in the amount of half of the second combat set for ships going to the Pacific Ocean,” attached to the testimony of the assistant to the head of the construction department of the main directorate of shipbuilding and supply, Major General Ivanov, the cost of a 12-inch high-explosive shell was 155 rubles, while a 10-inch high-explosive shell was 100 rubles.

That is, a twelve-inch projectile cost one and a half times more than a 10-inch projectile, but it also weighed more in the same proportion, from which we can conclude that the steel used to make both was approximately equivalent. And this, in turn, means that the armor-piercing capabilities of a 10-inch high-explosive shell were limited to armor half the caliber of the projectile.

But the half-caliber of a 12-inch shell is 152,4 mm, while the half-caliber of a 10-inch shell is only 127 mm. At the same time, the upper armor belt and casemates of Japanese battleships were protected by 148–152 mm of armor, which 12-inch high-explosive shells could easily penetrate, but 10-inch shells should not. Again, due to the probabilistic nature of armor penetration, anything is possible, but in general, a 12-inch high-explosive shell had a much better chance of causing a full-fledged rupture in a casemate than a 10-inch shell.

Thus, the 10-inch gun model 1892 was inferior to the 12-inch/40 gun model 1895 in all respects, but if only the fleet had received 12-inch armor-piercing shells with pyroxylin filling. Unfortunately, our ships did not have such shells in their ammunition, and with “gunpowder” shells everything was not so clear-cut.

In the battle with Japanese battleships, in terms of high-explosive shells, in my opinion, the 12-inch caliber had an advantage, even despite the slightly smaller quantity (and quality) of explosives. Firstly, the 12-inch shell had a much better chance of giving a timely explosion due to an adequate fuse for a high-explosive shell - a tube model 1894. And secondly, the 12-inch shell won due to the ability to penetrate armor up to 152 mm inclusive.

But it would be quite difficult to award the palm in terms of armor-piercing shells. At distances of 20-25 cables, from which, according to the instructions, our ships switched to armor-piercing shells and which sometimes occurred in battles of the Russo-Japanese War, neither 12-inch shells with gunpowder filling, nor 10-inch shells with pyroxylin could ensure the destruction of the citadels and barbettes of Japanese battleships. On the other hand, even 222-229 mm armor belts were quite penetrable for them, not to mention 148-152 mm casemates, and here the 10-inch shell with its more powerful filling could have an advantage. Therefore, I would risk claiming that 10-inch armor-piercing shells were still superior to 12-inch gunpowder shells, but this superiority was insignificant, since neither one nor the other ensured the infliction of decisive damage on Japanese battleships.

Another matter is the Japanese armored cruisers. Despite the fact that for their class they were superbly protected, their armor was absolutely unable to withstand 10-inch armor-piercing shells with an initial velocity of 777 m/s at 25-30 cable lengths (except for the 14-inch conning tower, of course). Here even the weaker guns of the Peresvet and Oslyabya could show themselves very well, since they had a good chance of penetrating the citadel (except for the Yakumo) at 20-25 cable lengths.

This leads to a very obvious conclusion: the 10-inch guns of the 1892 model were a bad solution for a squadron battleship, but an excellent option for an armored cruiser. Not as heavy as the 12-inch/40 guns of the 1895 model, they, taking into account the smaller weight of the turret mounts and ammunition, freed up hundreds of tons of displacement, which could be spent on increasing speed, but at the same time they perfectly solved the problem of confronting armored cruisers and were not at all useless in combat with enemy battleships.

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  1. +2
    30 November 2024 03: 50
    Of course, the 10-inch gun as the main caliber of domestic battleships in the 1890s looks extremely strange.

    Nothing strange, since this is not a caliber for EBR, but a main gun for Russian anti-anti-raiders, "steel cruisers of 12674 tons".
    Against the British anti-raiders, 10"s are more than enough.
    1. 0
      30 November 2024 03: 58
      could penetrate 110-111 mm of armor, while the Mikasa’s bevel thickness outside the coal pits was 114,3 mm.

      The word "armor" is not appropriate here, because the only thing that came close to armor was one layer of 38mm extra-soft nickel steel.
      1. -1
        30 November 2024 04: 02
        the shell pierced both the armor belt and the coal,

        For "Mikasa" the thickness of the coal that can be penetrated is incorrectly indicated in the table: in the best case for protecting "Mikasa", the coal thickness there is 0,6 m, not 2,5.
        All this must be recalculated for 12" shells too.
    2. +1
      30 November 2024 07: 17
      Nothing strange, since this is not a caliber for EBR, but a main gun for Russian anti-anti-raiders, "steel cruisers of 12674 tons".
      Against the British anti-raiders, 10"s are more than enough.

      If only I knew where I would fall, I would put some straw under it….
      In the reality of the Russo-Japanese War, even coastal defense battleships stood in the same column with squadron battleships, so the participation of Pobeda, Peresvet and Oslyabya as the core of the main squadron was determined from the very beginning. The Japanese "finished off" the main forces with armored cruisers with 12 and 8-inch guns. By the way, it worked.
      1. +2
        30 November 2024 13: 07
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        If only I knew where I would fall, I would put some straw under it….

        the grand ducal ghoul anticipated the feat of Shoigu's deputies and took out all the straw. There was no money even for testing new shells on a real target, as well as spare barrels.
        1. +2
          30 November 2024 20: 39
          Quote: clou
          The grand ducal ghoul anticipated the feat of Shoigu's deputies and took out all the straw.

          But the mistress is covered in diamonds.
          And now we have "a state like under Nicholas II." (The Kremlin's moustache)
      2. +2
        2 December 2024 22: 07
        I remember in Melnikov's "Rurik was the first", in the table the armor penetration of 10" is also indicated higher than that of 12". And he complains that at least "Gromoboy" could have received single-gun turret mounts of 10", according to the model of "Peresvet" that was being built at that time. That in the battle with Kamimura this could have become a trump card.
        The use of "Peresvet" and "Pobeda" in the line was not a particular problem, in the Yellow Sea they were not some kind of burden. With "Oslyabya" of course everything turned out worse, but there was such a hodgepodge there that there was no time for choice. Here it is still more tactics. Especially since he had a chance to knock on the Argentine Italians. hi
    3. +1
      30 November 2024 09: 26
      Quote: Jura 27
      Nothing strange, since this is not a caliber for EBR, but a main gun for Russian anti-anti-raiders, "steel cruisers of 12674 tons".
      Against the British anti-raiders, 10"s are more than enough.

      It can be added that some of the old English battleships, intended for coastal defense and convoy escort, were rearmed with 8-inch guns. It is clear that it was difficult for armored deck cruisers armed with 6-inch guns to attack enemy convoys and ports, given the presence of rearmed battleships. The only option was to retreat without completing the task.
    4. +3
      30 November 2024 12: 46
      It must be admitted that this idea failed miserably. The Oslyabya-type EBMs had a speed of 18,5 knots only during testing, and their cruising range was not that of a cruiser. It was not for nothing that they were called "coal eaters" in the navy. In short, it was an unsuccessful experiment that had a very painful effect on the Russian Navy.
      1. +2
        30 November 2024 14: 05
        Quote: TermNachTER
        It must be admitted that this idea failed miserably.

        "Actually, you know... the plan was not bad. The execution was a bit of a letdown" (c)
        1. +2
          30 November 2024 14: 28
          I think the plan and execution were bad from the start. And those who did it couldn't help but understand it. EBR "Tsesarevich" ("Prince Suvorov") - 20 boilers of "Belleville" - 2 PM, 18 knots. EBR "Oslyabya" - 30 boilers of "Belleville" - 3 PM, 18,5 knots. speed during trials. What's the point?
          1. +2
            30 November 2024 14: 38
            Quote: TermNachTER
            EBR "Tsarevich" ("Prince Suvorov") - 20 "Belleville" boilers - 2 PM, 18 knots speed.

            If you take it into account, our "Borodinites" had less than 18, but that's not the point. The point is that "Tsesarevich" and "Peresvet" are not the same age, there is a three-year difference between the start of work on the first and second. During this time, progress has been moving forward quite briskly. Ours already proposed building an improved 1896-knot "Peresvet" in 20, and that was already possible then.
            1. +1
              30 November 2024 14: 47
              I don't see much of a difference. Both the Tsarevich and the Peresvet had Belleville boilers and triple-expansion steam engines. The difference is in the number of boilers and engines. I readily believe that there was a project for an improved Peresvet, but I have strong doubts that it turned out to be the best. The Peresvets were also made with the best intentions.
              1. 0
                30 November 2024 15: 18
                Quote: TermNachTER
                I don’t see much difference.

                Look at the specific power of the Tsarevich, Borodino and Peresvet machines - everything will become clear at once. The same problem happened with the Dianas
                1. 0
                  30 November 2024 15: 22
                  The specific power of machines is a very elastic and relative concept. Because the speed and range depend not only on them, but also on the length, width of the hull and draft. Not to mention other accompanying trifles, such as fouling of the hull, wear of the machines, etc. Cruisers of the Diana type are another loud failure. It would have been a shame to build such a thing - under Stalin they would have shot everyone to hell and rightly so.
                  1. 0
                    30 November 2024 16: 07
                    Nikolay, the whole point is that in those years, power plants were developing in such a way that the power per ton of the installation's own weight was growing rapidly. That is, the machines were becoming much more powerful at the same weight, or it was possible to reduce the weight at the same power. Therefore, Dianas are essentially covers for machines, and many of their other foreign peers were similarly laid down. Several years passed, and it became possible to build relatively balanced armored deck cruisers at the same weight.
                    1. 0
                      30 November 2024 16: 56
                      Why then were the Germans able to squeeze normal performance characteristics into the 5 t "Askold" or 900 t "Bogatyr" tanks, but we couldn't do it into 6 t?
                      1. +2
                        30 November 2024 17: 37
                        Nikolay, I answered this question TWICE above
                      2. +1
                        30 November 2024 17: 54
                        I didn't see your answers, but that's not so important. The question was rhetorical.
                      3. +1
                        30 November 2024 21: 06
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Why then were the Germans able to squeeze normal performance characteristics into the 5 t "Askold" or 900 t "Bogatyr" tanks, but we couldn't do it into 6 t?

                        Well, "Bogatyr" was heavier. And "Askold" had three engines with a capacity of almost 24 hp. That's why the speed was 000 knots during testing.
                        "The engine curse" - it has been hanging over us ever since. The best efficiency and specific power turned out to be in German cars.
                        And the worst is in domestic ones. This is especially evident in "goddesses" and "peresvets".
                        If they really were going to fight Japan then, there was time and opportunity to order a series of ships from foreign shipyards in the quantities necessary for the war, and at home to intensively and quickly master modern ships and steam engines for them. So the American Crump was ready (and counted) to build two battleships and two armored cruisers for Russia (i.e. he could build 4 high-speed battleships in the same time and with the same capacity). In France it was also possible to build several ships, but even just instead of the "Bayan" in the same time and on the same slipway to build a second "Tsarevich" type. And Germany could build remarkable cruisers for the Pacific Fleet. Moreover, two of the "Askold" and "Bogatyr" types and 4 of the "Novik" type. Moreover, they counted on it, but instead of a normal order and quick receipt of ships for less money, spies from all over Rus' began to steal technical documentation for the Novik, and for the Askold they simply burned it. Because the cunning curators decided to buy only prototypes, although they promised to order a small series, in order to reduce the price. And then deception, refusal, theft and ... the failure of the shipbuilding program and a huge cost overrun. It turned out to be at least one and a half times more expensive to build it themselves. Well, the General-Admiral's appetite for diamonds for Kshesinskaya was boundless.
                        What kind of government is this - EVERYTHING.
                        "Goddesses" were built on antediluvian machines using antediluvian technologies. That's why such a fantastic nonsense was built.
                      4. 0
                        30 November 2024 21: 52
                        Well, even if the "Bogatyr" is 6 tons, there is nothing to compare it with the 900 "goddesses". Both in armor and speed. The British also had good boilers and engines. The "Bogatyr" had only 7 "Norman" boilers and they gave results. It's scary to even talk about the "Varyag" - 700 "Nikloss" boilers. How did they even fit in there?
                        Crump promised a lot of things, but when it came to action, he "played the fool." It was possible to buy Italian cruisers, especially since they first offered them to Russia and only then sold them to the Japanese. A lot could have been done if they had seriously prepared for war.
                      5. +1
                        1 December 2024 01: 48
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, even if the "Bogatyr" is 6 tons, there is nothing to compare it with the 900 "goddess" type.

                        Well, you shouldn't compare normal and full VI, "Bogatyr" has 7428 tons (I looked it up in Wikipedia), and "Diana" has 6897 tons. "Bogatyr" had a little armor (which is why it was classified not just as an armored deck, but as "reinforced"), and two turrets. And "Bogatyr" is 134,1 m long, while "Diana" is 126,8 m. I don't even want to discuss the fact that these cuttlefish were not even the bottom, but the bottom of military shipbuilding. Three low-power machines, but heavy...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There were only 16 Norman boilers on the Bogatyr and they produced results.

                        Yes 24,35 knots. These are the machines that had to be installed on domestic battleships and cruisers... but these machines were ready only by 1899.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        It's scary to even talk about the "Varyag" - 30 "Nikloss" boilers. How did they even fit in there?

                        They managed to get in, but the pipes burst with steam. The technical requirements were uniform: VI 6000 tons, speed no less than 23 knots. The Germans exceeded the technical requirements and made reliable machines, but the Varyag barely reached 23 knots, and the pipes began to burst even during testing. But on the Retvizan, these same boilers worked quite reliably.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Crump promised a lot of things, but when it came to action, he "played the fool."

                        He counted on a lot - he was invited as the main foreign contractor, he was going to build two high-speed battleships and two armored cruisers of the "Asama" class for the Pacific Fleet + 50 destroyers. In addition, he promised to build a shipyard in Artur or Dalniy with the help of his friend and was even ready to head it or entrust this to his son.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "played the fool"

                        And then a relative from the French Rothschilds (on his grandmother's side) came to Witte and convinced him to screw Cramp and give the order to the French shipyards. And that's what he decided to do. If that had happened in full, the French would have certainly missed the deadlines and we wouldn't have received the ordered number of ships. Cramp raised a scandal - he had been in Russia for over a year, coordinating the battleship project, waiting for the completion of the "Prince Potemkin" project ... and then they screwed him. As a result, the order was divided equally - the battleship and armored cruiser were ordered from the French, and Cramp was ordered a battleship and an armored cruiser. At the same time, they twisted his arms so much with the price that he was simply furious about the time wasted. He took the unfinished "Prince Potemkin" project and went home to fulfill the order. "Retvizan" cost the Russian treasury only 8 million rubles. Of course, without weapons. But compare this with the price of "Tsarevich" (although it is seriously more difficult to make, but the combat value is the same) and especially the "Borodinets" series.
                        Now let's just imagine that the Russian Empire is really preparing for war and is distributing orders as rationally as possible in order to receive the ships on time. Cramp wanted to build two Retvizans and two conditional Asams, but the order could have been adjusted and four Retvizans could have been received in the same amount of time and for a little more money. With a speed of 19 knots!! He achieved this speed after replacing the propellers with more rational ones in Japan. FOUR.
                        - Kramp has only two slipways, they will object to me.
                        - The slipway period takes only about 15 months, and after launching, in a month or a month and a half, the next ship can be laid down. So I would have managed to build all four by the deadline. Moreover, the last two battleships would have been built faster, since all the bumps with the new project were made on the previous ones.
                        And the French should order two "Tsareviches"... But it would be better to have two battleships based on the "Retvizan/Potemkin" project - the project is simpler, cheaper, would be built much faster, and the squadron would be uniform again.
                        And instead of two battleships of foreign construction, in 1903 we would have had SIX identical (!) battleships of foreign construction, plus three Poltavas and three Peresvets.
                        Oops belay And no armored cruisers were needed. 4 "Retvizans" with a speed of up to 19 knots could chase Japanese cruisers. But 9 (nine) battleships with a speed of at least 18 knots for the Pacific Fleet (and this is without taking into account the "Borodinets"), this is power. And only 12 units in a single formation. And if the "Garibaldians" were bought from Italy, then it would be "chocolate" altogether.
                        If they started building the "Borodintsevs" like the "Retivisans/Potemkinets", then the entire series would have been completed by 1903. Because it was easier to build them, and therefore cheaper and faster.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        A lot could have been done if they had prepared for war seriously.

                        But theirs back then were like ours today. hi
                      6. +1
                        1 December 2024 11: 53
                        1. Wikipedia is a so-so source. I read about "Bogatyr" in Melnikov's "Cruiser "Ochakov". I don't think that the Sevastopol copy was very different from the German original. Therefore, I think that the VI was less than 7 tons - the Germans are careful shipbuilders and their weight discipline was very good. "Askold" turned out to be even a little lighter than it should have been. We have already talked about the goddesses, I don't want to repeat myself. As for the speed of "Bogatyr" - let's not forget that experienced factory stokers and excellent quality coal were present at the sea trials. However, all of them - 000 knots. gave confidently.
                        2. The problem is that Nikloss's thin-tube boilers turned out strange. They worked quite well on the Retvizan and some gunboat, but on the Varyag the tubes constantly broke and scalded the stokers. There were several such accidents. The stokers were simply afraid to approach the boilers. No one really explained why this happened.
                        3. Kramp, like any huckster, wanted more money. And as soon as he received a contract, he immediately began to "play the fool". Or refused to make changes to the design, although this was in the contract. Or demanded additional payment and a shift in deadlines in law. In principle, many did this.
                        Alas, history cannot be changed, what has grown, has grown. Let's start with the fact that no one prepared Nikolashka to be a tsar. The heir was Georgy. Well, and then it went on as usual. Well, and we should not forget that Russia fought not so much with Japan, but with the Anglo-Saxons.
                      7. +1
                        1 December 2024 12: 33
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        They served quite normally on the Retvizan and some gunboat

                        They didn't work properly! Neither "retvizan" nor "brave"!!!
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        but on the Varyag the pipes were constantly breaking and the stokers were getting scalded.

                        The exact same thing happened on the "retvizan" during its first cruise. After that, its boilers were protected and high steam pressure was never increased. It did not go at full speed, did not participate in battleship races. It went into its only battle with a hole in its bow, which did not allow it to go at full speed even if it wanted to.
                      8. 0
                        1 December 2024 13: 11
                        Well, at least the Retvizan and Khrabry didn't have as many accidents with human casualties as the Varyag. I don't know how they achieved that.
                      9. +1
                        1 December 2024 13: 45
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, at least on the Retvizan... there weren't as many accidents with human casualties as on the Varyag.

                        In fact, everything is exactly the opposite.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I don't know how they achieved this.

                        I can't say for sure, but I'll risk guessing that it's the case
                        a) in boiler manufacturers. For "Khrabry" they bought French ones, directly from the Niklossov brothers' factory.
                        The American ones turned out to be worse.
                        b) Still, the operating modes of the cruiser and gunboat power plants are slightly different.
                      10. 0
                        1 December 2024 22: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I don't think that the Sevastopol copy was very different from the German original. That's why I think that the VI was less than 7 tons - the Germans are careful shipbuilders and their weight discipline was pretty good.

                        Wikipedia does not specify what displacement this is - normal/standard, full or even maximum. But it is obvious and visible that two twin-gun turrets (152 mm of armor, by the way, probably unified with the 6" turrets of the "Borodinets") and some barbettes, whatever they are, add weight. In addition, the design of the "Asamite" that Vulcan built for Japan was taken as a basis, only without an armor belt and other armor. So there is unlikely to be an error here, most likely the full displacement is simply given. Although in the same Wiki, but on another page I came across the displacement for "Bogatyr" of 6600 tons.+, which is most likely just the standard displacement.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Askold" turned out to be even a little lighter than it should have been.

                        Yes, among his classmates, "Askold" looks like a simple ballerina. However, he ran well.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        2. The problem is that Nikloss's thin-tube boilers turned out strange. They served quite well on the Retvizan and some gunboat, but on the Varyag the tubes constantly broke and scalded the stokers.

                        On the "Retvizan" too, the pipes were breaking, even during sea trials. There is a description of those sea trials in one of the American newspapers, whose correspondent was then on board the battleship. Crump decided to make a show by achieving a record speed - according to his calculations, the "Retvizan" should have given 19 knots and this was announced. But it did not ... The boilers were stoked so that sparks flew from the pipes in a column ... and the speed was only 17,99 knots. Crump was in despair, he himself ran to the stokers and almost threw coal himself. But to no avail, and the boiler pipes began to break. The customer's representative asked to stop the tests and not to force the machines, because the ordered 18 knots were supposedly achieved ... and signed the act. The problem was in the irrational propellers. Later, the Japanese changed them and immediately gave 19 knots on the first run.
                        With the "Varyag" it was either a manufacturing defect or such a subtle revenge for wasted time and a large order that was thwarted. By the way, upon arrival in the USA, Crump immediately received orders from the government and was inundated with orders - he did not suffer financially.
                        Or maybe the thin-walled pipes simply couldn't withstand such pressure, after all, the Varyag declared a power of 20 hp - a record for a two-shaft power plant. But the Germans got a "twenty-thousand" power plant that was pretty good. And the British, of course. They then managed to get 000 hp on a two-shaft power plant...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. Crump, like any huckster, wanted more money. And as soon as he received a contract, he immediately started to "play the fool".

                        I was overwhelmed with orders, plus I was offended for wasting a lot of time. When you have clients lined up, then such a passing order with no further prospects, you just want to quickly get rid of it ... so I got rid of it - "Varyag". And with "Retvizan" ours themselves were rushing to change - the war is coming. Then they were going to put in new screws.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        No one prepared Nikolashka to be a tsar. George was the heir.

                        Well, yes. And no one expected his father's death so quickly. And SUCH a "Miracle" appeared on the throne.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Russia fought not so much with Japan as with the Anglo-Saxons.

                        The more you delve into the history of that war, the more you become convinced that the Russian Empire leadership managed not only to screw up all the preparations for the war, in all sectors, but also... came up with something else. angry and failed. Yes It's just some kind of theater of the absurd. Then it struggled for another 12 years in the agony of revolutions and... ended.
                        And now it's under a new brand again - "like under Nivola-2" ... and what are they leading to? Somehow the methods are like carbon copies. And such feigned, reckless and ostentatious "stupidity" ...
                      11. 0
                        2 December 2024 09: 34
                        Melnikov's "Cruiser Ochakov" says that the armor of both the turrets,
                        and its barbettes are thinner than those of the EBR, so changes were made there. Well, and the weight of the armor belt of the "Yakumo" is also not small. Therefore, I think that the standard VI was 6500 - 6600 tons. And 7 is the maximum, with everything required - in overload.
                        Regarding the Nikloss boilers, it is understandable that the Retvizan had a test run, a bonus was given for exceeding the speed limit. Later, its boilers did not cause any particular problems, but for the Varyag - this was a constant problem. In other fleets, Nikloss boilers were also used and I do not remember any particularly bad reviews about them.
                        Perhaps there was an offense, I do not argue. But the standard contract of that time included a clause that the changes made to the design of the ship during the construction process, the builder makes at his own expense. Although some customers abused this clause. But Kramp immediately began to brush them off or demand additional payment, or a shift in the delivery date of the ship. And often both. Let's say, not very nice either.
                        Alas, Russia was unlucky. Alexander III died early and did not prepare an heir for himself. And purely in terms of human qualities, Nikolashka was not suitable for this position.
                        All the problems of the Russian Empire of that time stem precisely from the personality of the ruler, who was weak and suggestible.
                      12. 0
                        2 December 2024 20: 03
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        armor and towers,
                        and its barbettes are thinner than those of the EBR, so changes were made there. Well, and the weight of the Yakumo armor belt is also not small.

                        The difference is not only in the absence of an armor belt and casemate armor, but also in the composition of the artillery weapons and ammunition for it. Still, 4 x 8 "+ 12 x 6" for "Yakumo" and 12 x 6" is a big difference, as is the weight of the ammunition. And the size / weight of the turrets, barbettes. But "Bogatyr" is still a very large ship, with a powerful propulsion plant (20 versus 000 hp for "Yakumo") and, accordingly, a large supply of coal, water - a cruiser-raider after all. And the difference between 15 and 000 tons is a classic difference between a standard VI and a full VI, without any overload - the cruiser took a lot of coal.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Regarding the Nikloss boilers, it is understandable for the Retvizan to test, a bonus was due for exceeding the speed. Later, his boilers did not cause any special problems, but for the Varyag - this was a constant problem.

                        It's just that these boilers had just appeared then - new technologies, thin-walled fire tubes... there could have been a manufacturing defect on the part of the manufacturer (who supplied the tubes), and record steam pressure - such powerful machines were just beginning to be introduced, "Bogatyr", "Askold" and English cruisers with 20 hp machines were just being built then. If "Varyag" really had 000 such boilers, and the machines were about the same as "Retvizan", then it turns out that the increase in power was achieved by increasing the steam pressure... which could have been higher than the maximum permissible for these tubes. And there was no time for experiments and add. there were no more tests - all the plans of the Russian Empire with the shipbuilding program went to hell and it was necessary to assemble a combat-ready group in the Pacific Fleet already in 30, and not "not earlier than 1903", so they rushed, accepted raw ships. These were essentially prototypes, on which all designs and technologies had to undergo thorough testing and refinement - that's what they are prototypes for. And there was no time left.
                        In addition, the shipbuilding race began and all the leading countries rushed to order battleships and armored cruisers. In the USA, the future "White Fleet" was being built and there was a queue of customers for battleships to Cramp ... And then some cruiser with an experimental propulsion plant ... and the customers were in a hurry. So it turned out that some pushed out an inconvenient order, while others willingly and happily signed the acceptance certificate, because "it was really necessary". In addition, they did not want to pay for additional work. And this is a prototype, an experimental machine, there were no such things yet, so you can't foresee all the expenses and deadlines. This ALWAYS happens with new machines. I am not justifying Cramp, but I look at it soberly, from the perspective of those years and the circumstances. All such claims would have been made if this had been a serial ship and a finished project from the customer. But the customer himself didn’t really know what he wanted and in the technical specifications he only indicated the general parameters of what he wanted.
                        The same thing happened with the Retvizan. Due to the low qualifications of the Russian designers, the Potemkin project dragged on for a long time and with difficulty. When Kramp left, he took an unfinished project, expecting to receive the final one during construction... but he received nothing, and when he asked the customer's representative questions like "so what now?" he received the answer "yes, do it as is, as long as it's faster." That is why the Retvizan really does have flaws in the armor of the ends, but the Potemkin has very good armor and no such flaws. And the casemate battery is more advanced (16 guns instead of 12). But in the technical specifications, Kramp had exactly 12 x 6" guns.
                        My interest in Kramp is precisely in the fact that it is his "Retvizan/Polemkin" project that is most convenient for the construction of a large series. And it was precisely a LARGE series of such ships that was implied.
                        10 pieces!!!
                        2 battleships are being built by Kramp, 3 units in the Black Sea and 5 units at the Baltic Shipyard. And this is not only a saving of time and money, it is a unification of spare parts kits, training of engineering personnel, crew training, and convenience when transferring from ship to ship.
                        Did you like "The Tsarevich"?
                        Its curved spaceship shapes?
                        Is it too much of a stretch to repeat this for a large series?
                        It turned out to be weak! And we had to rework the project for about a year and a half to fit our own realities and capabilities... and the result was a badly armored one. Which you can't look at without amazement. And why was it necessary to build this nonsense? Didn't you have enough fun with building the "Poltava" ships?? How much did you suffer with them until you built them? And you got already outdated ships as brand new. And you repeated the same experience on the "Borodin" ships... and lost the War.
                        Well done, really?
                        But if they had chosen the right one, and specifically a domestic project - "Retvizan/Potemkin", they would have received the ships on time. The vacated slipways of the Baltic Shipyard would not have been idle for more than a year due to the project not being ready. And Kramp would have built a series of 4 ships without stress, without being pushed in the back by new customers, and all the shortcomings and flaws of the lead ship would have been identified and eliminated on the other ships of the series.
                        Kramp is no better or worse than other talented shipbuilders, but he was not just ready, he wanted to work with us. And the carrot of prospects would force him to build very high quality and with a guarantee.
                        Just look at WHAT the customers from the Russian Empire were doing at the same German shipyards - stealing technical documentation, refusing to fulfill previously taken obligations, bragging in the PRESS (!!) about their crimes in Germany, deceptions and forgeries... That was the "mirror of the Russian Empire" of that time. And you say "Kramp is a crook". Yes, a businessman like everyone else. A talented shipbuilding engineer (like not everyone else). And simply a man of his time.
                        The personification of the Russian Empire of that time is stupidity, incompetence, dishonesty, laziness, corruption, impudence (not everyone at the top, but the decisive ones), arrogance and lack of talent. It is bitter to realize this, but even now we have come to practically the same thing. "Like under Nika-2".
                        "This has never happened before and here it is AGAIN."
                      13. 0
                        Yesterday, 08: 01
                        Quote: bayard
                        Did you like "The Tsarevich"?
                        Its curved spaceship shapes?
                        Is it too much of a stretch to repeat this for a large series?
                        It turned out to be weak! And I had to spend about a year and a half reworking the project to suit my own realities and capabilities... and it turned out to be a really good armored one. Which you can't look at without amazement. And why was it necessary to build this nonsense?

                        The battleships "Tsesarevich" and "Borodino" are the embodiment in metal of the tactical views of the French Navy on conducting a squadron battle with the superior English fleet. In terms of concentrating fire of medium-caliber artillery, the arrangement of guns in the turrets is better than that of ships with casemate gun arrangement. The height of the guns allows firing in any weather.
                        As for the Asama for the RIF, given the limited budget, the choice will always be in favor of a more powerful ship, that is, a battleship.
                      14. 0
                        Yesterday, 13: 19
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The height of the guns allows firing in any weather.

                        Very wise and calculated - a high forecastle, high-positioned turrets along the sides (very inconvenient by the way), large upper weight... as well as the "handsome" Peresvets. And very low-positioned anti-mine artillery ports. lol good Got a hole in it, scooped it up with ports and capsized. Very smart.
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        As for the Asama for the RIF, given the limited budget, the choice will always be in favor of a more powerful ship, that is, a battleship.

                        And that's why the Vladivostok ridiculous raiders and the eccentric handsome "Peresvets" built it?
                        And of course, the "bayans" with their amazing armament. And the even more amazing "Bogatyrs", which, if they did install turrets, at least they could have shoved a more serious caliber in there, like the "Bayan" at least. Is the "Bayan" not quite "Asama" due to budget shortcomings, or intelligence? But they were also purchased in series, although only one got to the war. And the "Bogatyrs" were built in series. winked Is it really strong? But with such machines, but with armor and artillery, it would be a beauty. Just add some "water" (money). Or some brains.
                        Just don't steal the technical documentation of the Novik, but order 4 cruisers as promised, they would have given you the documentation, and they would have helped with the organization of construction of such cruisers in Russia. And the technical documentation for the Askold would not have burned. After all, they were going to build them for the Pacific Fleet, not the Bogatyrs.
                        It seems that the Russian Empire at that time was ruled by a madman who chose the worst of all options... or even invented them himself, and even more intricate ones.
                      15. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 57
                        Quote: bayard
                        Very wise and prudent - a high forecastle, high-mounted turrets along the sides (very inconvenient by the way), large upper weight... as well as the "handsome" Peresvets. And very low-mounted anti-mine artillery ports

                        There is a design displacement, and there is an actual one. No one has cancelled overload.
                        What didn't you like about the turrets on the sides? A perfectly normal arrangement for concentrating medium-caliber artillery fire.
                        And that's why the Vladivostok ridiculous raiders and the eccentric handsome "Peresvets" built it?

                        No one has cancelled cruiser warfare. It was considered one of the most important factors of war at sea. That is why such cruisers were built and they fully corresponded to their purpose.
                      16. 0
                        Yesterday, 18: 34
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        There is a design displacement and there is an actual displacement.

                        And there is a bad project with a large upper weight.
                        And what about the low-lying ports of the 75 mm. guns, are they also "the height of engineering thought" for you? One of these "Borodinets" even grabbed water through its ports during the tests. No. Almost drowned.
                        It doesn't matter what motivates this or that arrangement, what matters is how justified, healthy and useful it is. And in this series it was absurd and destructive.
                        And I'm not even talking about the fact that shooting from 6" turrets was inconvenient for the crews (cramped, uncomfortable, accumulation of powder gases), which is why they showed much lower combat performance, and the crews quickly got tired, which is why the tempo dropped even lower. Despite all the heroism of the sailors. At that time, casemate batteries were much more rational, faster-firing, more convenient for crews and cheaper/easier to build and operate.
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        No one has cancelled the cruiser war.

                        Therefore, some cruisers (huge ones!) were deprived of rotating main battery turrets and thus the broadside salvo of 8" guns was halved. The armor was incomplete + the masts were positioned absurdly (right in front of the conning tower, impairing visibility).
                        And it's a sin to even talk about "Peresvets" - EVERYTHING there is irrational. But they looked beautiful and had really good seaworthiness. But a ship is created for FIGHT! But in battle, their value was limited - too weak an arsenal of 6" guns (5 pieces per side) and the absurd placement of another one right in the bow of the ship's hull, which was constantly flooded with spray, and in strong waves, by waves. And at the same time, for some reason, an excessive number of 75 mm guns, which in battle have almost zero value, and against attacks by destroyers their number is excessive. If they had lowered her forecastle by one deck, lowered the bow turret to this level, installed 12" guns as main guns and added 2-3 six-inch guns per side, while slightly increasing the armor, we would have got a quite successful high-speed battleship on old-style machines. And these would have been quite useful ships. Only a blind person cannot fail to see this. And it is not for nothing that in the Western and English press this type of "battleships" was called the "Weakened" type.
                        Everything that was built for the 1st squadron of the Pacific Fleet was... absurd and irrational, motley and poorly combined into a single formation.
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        That is why such cruisers were built and they fully corresponded to their purpose.

                        And how did they show themselves?
                        There was indeed one relatively successful raid, but it was short-lived and did not have much of an impact.
                        The raiders were also supposed to be "bayans", "bogatyrs", "Askold" ... and "goddesses" were not suitable at all. Everything was motley and absurd. And even the ubiquitous and fast "Novik" had too short a cruising range and insufficient armament, which did not allow for a full-fledged battle with cruisers. Only to chase/drive away enemy destroyers.
                        This is a very negative, but at the same time extremely INSTRUCTIVE example from our history of how NOT to prepare for war and how NOT to (!) build a Fleet. Without learning this lesson, our VPR will forever walk on the rake of History and be surprised by new bumps. hi
                      17. +2
                        1 December 2024 12: 50
                        Quote: bayard
                        He was counting on a lot - he was invited as the main foreign contractor, he was going to build two high-speed battleships and two armored cruisers of the Asama class for the Pacific Fleet + 50 destroyers

                        But no one invited him anywhere; he came up with such proposals himself.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And then a relative from the French Rothschilds (on his grandmother's side) came to Witte and convinced him to screw Kramp and give the order to the French shipyards.

                        Nobody has ever screwed him over, if only because nobody has ever promised him anything. Besides, RIF already had experience working with Crump... very negative.


                        Quote: bayard
                        "Retvizan" cost the Russian treasury only 8 million rubles. Of course, without weapons. But compare this with the price of "Tsarevich"

                        Let's compare. "Retvizan" with armament cost 11 rubles, not counting ammunition, "Tsarevich" without it - 516. Given that "Retvizan" was objectively worse than "Tsarevich".
                        Quote: bayard
                        Kramp wanted to build two Retvizans and two conditional Asams, but the order could have been adjusted and four Retvizans could have been obtained in the same period and for a little more money.

                        You can not.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And the French should order two "Tsareviches"...

                        one came at the very beginning of the war, the second would not have made it at all
                        Quote: bayard
                        At a speed of 19 knots!! This is the speed he achieved after replacing the propellers with more efficient ones in Japan.

                        And with, according to rumors, the replacement of Nikloss boilers with Miyabara or something like that.
                      18. +1
                        1 December 2024 13: 22
                        I completely agree with you. Kramp himself came to St. Petersburg and promised everyone everything at once. He didn't inspire much confidence and as a basic project he brought, I think, the Japanese "Chitose", although I could be wrong, I don't remember exactly.
                        It is difficult to say whether the Retvizan was worse than the Tsarevich? The Japanese had all their 152mm caliber in casemates. Somehow they fought through the entire war on the new Mikasa and others, they also did not switch to a turret
                        scheme.
                        The boilers were most likely replaced with Japanese ones not to increase the speed, but to avoid problems with the stokers.
                        The Miyabara boiler was apparently better than Nikloss, in terms of weight and steam output, and the machines withstood it. Hence the speed increase.
                      19. 0
                        1 December 2024 13: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Somehow they fought through the entire war and on the new Mikasa and others, they also did not switch to the turret

                        Actually, we have crossed over.
                        starting with "Katori" where they added four turrets for the intermediate caliber, and then on "Satsuma" the entire SC in two-gun turrets.
                      20. 0
                        2 December 2024 02: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Kramp himself came to St. Petersburg and promised everyone everything at once. He didn't inspire much confidence and brought what I think was the Japanese "Chitose" as a basic project.

                        Nikolay, what I am now writing about the history of Kramp's adventures in Russia is taken from an article (translated) based on the historiography of Kramp's shipyards\shipyards, which I read several years ago... I even thought that it was on VO, that's why I wrote about it as if it were common knowledge for forum members. But that was another site, the name of which I can't remember now. The article is very interesting, very informative in terms of details and particulars, and at the same time very complimentary in terms of Kramp's memories of Russia. But he could have simply laid it out and would have been right in many ways... But he lived in Russia for more than a year, communicated with many members of the Naval College and others involved, made big plans and understood very well WHO exactly ruined all these plans... as it turned out - to the detriment of Russia and for its defeat. This is based on his diaries, memoirs, stories about that period. So this is a view from the other side. But that's what makes it interesting.
                        Kramp, like many other shipyards in the world, received an invitation to submit ship designs for the competition, and the battleship Alabama was being built on its slipways at the time, and no other orders were in sight. Leaving the shipyard in the hands of his son, he left for St. Petersburg, taking with him the Alabama design and a number of other designs. It was received very well, especially since none of the world's leading shipyards responded to the call - they were all overloaded with orders. Therefore, it was received especially well. The Russians did not like the Alabama design, others also considered it outdated, and the project/technical specifications were agreed upon. The Prince Potemkin, which was then called the "improved Peresvet", was being designed as a new battleship for the World Cup, and Kramp immersed himself in work with the participants of this project, intending to build the one that the customers would choose. He also proposed several versions of the cruiser, but the choice of the project was also delayed. Kramp also proposed building all 50 destroyers, with assembly in Artur and in the context of building a large shipyard in Artur or Dalniy. For the construction of the shipyard, he proposed his friend, who specialized in building large factories and shipyards, and even offered to head this plant himself or send his son, who was already in business and very talented as an engineer and production organizer. So this is not a fairy tale, but the official history of the shipyards\shipyard and the Kramp family. And to make up such things, especially about a country that screwed you over with a large order ... and with such warmth ... No way, Kramp really did have very big plans then. That's why he hung around in Russia, establishing connections, making acquaintances, participating in the development of projects. His members of the Board invited him to England to the presentation of "Asama", he was part of the Russian delegation. And he was very inspired by Asama, as well as by his acquaintance with the work of English shipyards. He was fired up to build a cruiser "the same as "Asama" but better", considering it the best project for an armored cruiser.
                        And then a man from the French Rothschilds came to Witte. And yes, he brought the "Tsarevich" project. And the chaos began - Witte decided to give the entire order (2 + 2) to the French, the opinions in the Collegium were divided, Kramp was beside himself - he had been in Russia for over a year, making plans, and then ... a scandal occurred, the result was what happened, I described above. Kramp was not even allowed to build his "Asama" ... and in order to leave him in the project, they twisted his arms with the price - those same 8 million rubles in gold.
                        At this time a telegram arrived from his son that the customers had arrived and it was time to return. Kramp took the still unfinished project of "Potemkin" and hastily left for the USA.
                        But he always remembered his life in Russia with warmth and regret - he liked it there. And yes - he wanted to attach his son to a new business. He supported our people in the RYaV, followed the fate of the Retvizan and, by the way, was very proud of this project, although he built many ships. And although in Russia Witte's hysterics poured all sorts of dirt on him, spreading all sorts of nastiness about a "crook", "rogue", "adventurer" and other epithets. request The Rothschilds are not allowed - the Russian Empire owed them 11 billion rubles in gold during the war... because of that and under the pressure of this, it joined the Entente, and WWI, and sent troops to defend Paris... But Kramp - it is allowed.
                        I thought that VO knows this story. hi
                      21. 0
                        2 December 2024 09: 13
                        I have nothing against Kramp. But he is first and foremost a businessman interested in making a profit. And some of the technical decisions made at his shipyard are highly questionable. I don't remember everything, I only remember the ball valves, which turned out to be at least useless. His plans, let's say, are not supported by anything other than his enthusiasm. Whether he would have succeeded or not is a moot point. Russia has already built the city of Dalny, to no avail for itself. I haven't read his memoirs, somehow I haven't come across them.
                      22. 0
                        2 December 2024 17: 10
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I have nothing against Crump. But he is first and foremost a businessman interested in making a profit.

                        So I think of him as a businessman who was fired up by plans to build ships for the Pacific Fleet, he really wanted to build four armored ships (he simply would not have had time to build more, and it was four foreign-built ships that were approved by the government of the Republic of Ingushetia). And yes, he wanted to receive orders for the construction of destroyers, and for the construction of the shipyard, and for organizing work on it (up to personally heading it and sending his son to manage it). But at that time, Russia lacked competent managers and engineers, organizers of complex production, and invited specialists from Europe. That time, no one came from Europe, but Kramp did.
                        About ball valves... are you sure that Kramp had something to do with the development of this design? As far as I remember, they were installed on many ships and were generally accepted in world shipbuilding.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        His plans, let's say, are not supported by anything other than his enthusiasm.

                        Well, why not? Exactly during the period in question (before 1903) Kramp built three battleships and a cruiser. So he could have done it, just as he could before and could after. The trick here is that at the time of his departure to Russia, no large orders were in sight and he went on a journey to the other end of the planet in order to take part in grandiose projects. He took part in the coordination and layout of those plans together with the members of the Collegium as an invited foreign specialist. He had already become one of his own (and in Russia there were a lot of foreigners working and serving... What can I say - our tsars and half of the aristocracy were foreigners... they were... and now again. For the Collegium he was nothing less than "our Kramp", his competence was valued - specialists of this level were worth their weight in gold in the Russian Empire. Remember HOW and how long the "Poltavtsy" were built, how the "Peresvetovtsy" were designed and how long they were built, how good the "Borodintsy" ("improved Tsarevich") project turned out to be, what they built there under the nickname "goddess". And now look at the technical specifications from the Naval Staff and the Collegium for "battleships of foreign construction" and look at Kramp's implementation of this... And look at the "Potemkin", the project was also laid out with his participation, only the machines were installed "what was there" \\"a-la Poltava". I know for sure that Kramp would have done better, that if "Retvizan/Potemkin" had been established as a single type of battleship, they would have been built much faster, without the hassle of "innovations" and complex geometry for "beauty". After all these squiggles, you look at "Retvizan" and understand, here it is - rationalization and conciseness of forms and optimization of technological processes, which later distinguished the American shipbuilding school. As far as I understand, "Retvizan" became a textbook for all American shipbuilding "how to design and build ships". Nothing superfluous, but at the same time everything necessary and optimization of the project and technological process for the construction of a large series. Yes, there were some flaws in the project, but that was because the Potemkin project was unfinished, and there was no time to delay and make corrections - the Russians themselves were rushing it. But the same Prince Potemkin had a much better thought-out armor, and no shortcomings that the Retvizan had. And the boilers and their tubes... Record power was needed, the Retvizan was the lead ship - the first with such engines and boilers, and the propellers, which they simply did not allow to recalculate and replace. On the same Askold, the propellers were changed three times. Well, and the Varyag was apparently simply pushed out as quickly as possible for the same reasons - "come on, hurry up, we have a war coming up", and Kramp had a queue of battleships to build.
                        And yes, Kramp noted the very weak engineering and rudimentary design and engineering training of Russian specialists, which is why all the work with design, project selection and execution (and operation) was so difficult, long, and decisions were made so slowly. With Kramp, the Russian Empire had a chance to cut off at a sharp turn in history, not to lose the war, to gain a foothold in the Far East in the warm seas, and not to stick out there to this day "with the bare heels of the empire."
                      23. 0
                        2 December 2024 20: 44
                        Kramp had enough orders even without Russia. He built for both the USA and Japan. As for the ball valve - I don't know who designed it, but Kramp used it wherever possible. Other not very well thought-out solutions were also used. Kramp insisted on Nikloss boilers, the Russians wanted Belleville. Let's say that the capabilities of Kramp's shipyard were by no means unlimited. He wanted to get a firm contract, and only then solve problems as they arose, possibly at the expense of the Russian order.
                        The fact that in Russia they designed and built for a long time, and not always well, is already a byword, but this does not mean that with Kramp everything would have been great. I do not think that the Potemkin is a copy of the Retvizan. There is a similarity, but the Potemkin is a product of the Black Sea branch of the RIF development. Ships with local specifics were always built there.
                        Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism that the Russian Empire would have won the Russian War with Crump. There were a lot of other problems there besides the fleet. Starting with the general unpreparedness of the entire state apparatus for war.
                      24. 0
                        2 December 2024 21: 52
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Cramp insisted on the Nikloss boilers, the Russians wanted Belleville.

                        We were familiar with the Belleville boilers, and Kramp was trying to squeeze the maximum out of the machines - the most productive boilers were needed. It was just a novelty then and perhaps there was simply insufficient debugging of their operation, perhaps excessive forcing of the "Varyag" machines by increasing the steam pressure, which the tubes simply could not withstand, perhaps there was simply a defect in the production of these tubes. Thin-walled tubes for heat exchangers (I am a little familiar with this topic and even the author of these technologies for nuclear and other power plants ... these are very complex and responsible technologies, so at the dawn of the use of thin-walled tubes there could simply be a defect. In any case, testing and debugging of the "Varyag" had to be continued and brought to mind, but ... I already wrote what happened then - EVERYONE was in a hurry.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The capabilities of the Kramp shipyard were by no means unlimited. He wanted to get a firm contract and then solve problems as they arose, possibly at the expense of the Russian order.

                        Surely this was so. Especially since by that time he had already become familiar with the work of English shipyards (at the inspection of the "Asama") and an order for 4 armored ships at once allowed the shipyard to be modernized and new solutions to be worked out and their refinement, which is much easier with a large order.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I don't think that "Potemkin" is a copy of "Retvizan".

                        Rather the opposite - "Retvizan" is a somewhat simplified, unfinished scheme of armoring and arrangement of casemate battery and armoring of the ends ... but with a much more powerful propulsion plant and much higher speed. The "Potemkin" project was unfinished when Kramp left, and the completed project was not sent to him, although this was agreed upon.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism that with Crump, RI would have won the RYAV.

                        But what if the Retvizan/Potemkin project had been chosen as a single project? And they would have simply had time to build them? And send them to the Pacific Fleet. According to my calculations and taking into account the delay in the construction of the Borodinets, by mid-1903 we could have had 6 battleships of this project in the Pacific Fleet. Not two battleships of different projects, but six battleships of the same project, but built at different shipyards. Conventionally, at least 2 units built by Kramp would already be there, 2 units of French construction, but according to our project, and another two built by the Baltic Shipyard, but according to the same project. At the same time, two more of Kramp's battleships would have received armament and crews at that time, the crews would have been trained and passed tests, and the remaining four "Borodinets" of the correct design (four, because the year+ during which the plant's slipways were idle, we would not have lost waiting for the modified design of the future "Borodino", but would have simply laid down two battleships of the Unified Design.
                        As a result, in the Pacific Fleet we would have 6 high-speed battleships of the Unified Project + 3 Poltavets + 3 Peresvets (which it would be desirable to build precisely as high-speed battleships with a three-shaft propulsion plant on old-type machines). A total of 12 squadron battleships. And another 6 newly built battleships in the Baltic, ready to sail in the first half of 1904 to Arthur. To which we can add 2 Garibaldians bought from Italy, as well as the modernized Sisoes and Navarin, if such a thing is suddenly required. That is, the combat core of the Second Squadron.
                        With such forces, there could be no talk of any Japanese landing in Korea, or it would have been doomed to perish in the event of such an adventure. We would not have given up dominance at sea, but on the contrary, we would have chased the Japanese fleet like hounds chasing a hare. And with the arrival of the Second Squadron, we would have simply forced them to capitulate, annexed everything due and imposed a contribution to cover the costs of the war. It would simply not have come to a land war and the Japanese would have had no chance.
                        Japan in reality had a window of opportunity of only about a year, until the Second Squadron with the "Borodinites" (whatever they were) came to the Pacific Fleet and simply smashed our Pacific Fleet piecemeal, seizing and maintaining supremacy at sea, thereby providing logistics for their landing force... which defeated the stupid "Russian" generals (there, the corps were increasingly commanded by German barons/rams) in Manchuria and took Arthur. The Japs were then constantly balancing on the brink of a foul, but they always had a situational numerical (and not only) advantage. The presence of new battleships in Arthur by the end of 1903 would have deprived them of even a shadow of such an advantage. And even with the stupid leadership that existed then, we would have definitely won the war. We would have simply won it at sea.
                        But this is just mental gymnastics; history does not tolerate subjunctive moods.
                      25. +1
                        2 December 2024 22: 28
                        1. Why didn't Crump insist on Yarrow or Thornycroft boilers, or his own Fosters? But chose the ones that were poorly tested in operation? In any case, his haste came back to haunt him RIF.
                        2. That is, we return to the fact that Kramp wanted to modernize and expand his production at the expense of Russia. This was the main thing, his good intentions are secondary.
                        3. The Black Sea Fleet has always followed its own path of development, somewhat different from the Baltic. This was the case in the future.
                        4. The problem is not only in quantity, but also in quality. And in combat training. Samurai prepared for war in all seriousness, crews worked themselves to exhaustion. And we, for the winter, moved to live in the crew. There was no money for shells, there was no money to increase the number of mobilized. And there was much more. War is much broader and more complex than just a confrontation of fleets. The version that if the RIF had seized supremacy at sea, it could have cut off the Japanese army on the continent from Japan itself or even blockaded Japan. Alas, with a simple calculation of forces and means, this seems very unlikely. Moreover, the gentlemen in London and New York were clearly not satisfied with such an outcome and they would have come up with something else.
                      26. 0
                        2 December 2024 23: 44
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Why didn't Crump insist on Yarrow or Thornycroft boilers, or his own Fosters? But chose those that were little tested in operation?

                        He built ships with record-breaking characteristics for the Russian Empire, so the most efficient boilers and the most powerful engines were needed. And indeed, the Retvizan produced 17 horsepower on the shafts, and no other battleship in the world had such a powerful propulsion plant at that time. I have already expressed my opinion about the Varyag. Once again, both ships were experimental and designed to achieve maximum speed characteristics. Both ships were PROTOTYPES! They could not be treated as serial ones, they were supposed to undergo testing and fine-tuning. But Kramp was rushed by the Russian customers!! They turned a blind eye to many flaws, shortcomings and childhood illnesses that needed to be identified and eliminated. The ships were urgently needed for the Pacific Fleet. But before that they still had to be driven to Kronstadt, armed, re-equipped, populated with a crew, settled in, developed and driven to the Pacific Fleet. And on the other hand, new customers were pushing - the USA needed to build a "White Fleet".
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        2. That is, we return to the fact that Kramp wanted to modernize and expand his production at the expense of Russia. This was the main thing, his good intentions are secondary.

                        What does "good intentions" have to do with it? belay He is a businessman, not an altruist or philanthropist. He wanted to load his shipyard with orders, that's why he came. But the fact that he stayed here for more than a year, took part in the design and approval of the project, was going to build a shipyard in Kwantung... this just shows that he had much broader plans and aspirations. And the fact that he has such warm and positive memories of his stay in Russia only shows that he liked it here. I don't know why... The House of Romanov and the ruling class of the Russian Empire had not just a "cart" of Black Ingratitude, but a wagon and a large cart. Remember at least their gratitude to Germany for its help and support on the eve of and during that war. German colliers who supplied the 2nd and 3rd squadrons, really very good ships built by their shipyards - cruisers and destroyers, the transfer of technology (despite theft, intrigue, breakdowns in agreements and other dishonesty of the Romanov agents), despite the real support in the European press in defiance of the British... How did the Romanovs, who had lost utterly, repay Germany?
                        They concluded a military alliance against her with her enemies - England and France!!! By joining the Entente! And then they fought against her on their own initiative. Although the alliance or at least complimentary neutrality was objectively beneficial to the Russian Empire.
                        So who were the Romanovs and their servants for Russia?
                        Enemies and parasites. And quite stupid, lazy, greedy and untalented ones.
                      27. 0
                        Yesterday, 00: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. The Black Sea Fleet has always followed its own path of development, somewhat different from the Baltic. This was the case in the future.

                        Yes, shipbuilding capabilities at the World Cup were simply limited. And there was no access to new-type steam engines. So they installed the same engines that were already on the Poltava ships on a really successful battleship. As a result, the Potemkin's speed turned out to be even lower than theirs - due to its larger VI and probably due to its slightly greater draft. 16 knots is somehow... not serious even for the World Cup. But then they thought it was enough. But its sister ship, the Retvizan, with the same VI and contours, had 19 knots on rational propellers.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        4. The problem is not only in quantity, but also in quality. And in combat training.

                        In terms of quality, the Retvizan and especially the Potemkin were in no way inferior to the Mikasa. Especially if the entire series was built using the Potemkin layout, but with the Retvizan's engines on rational propellers. Imagine a squadron battle of such battleships with the Japanese, when it is not the Japanese, but we who have the advantage in speed. Or at least parity, but with superiority in artillery (let me remind you that the Potemkin ships had 16 6" guns against 14 on the Mikasa). And the armor system of the Potemkin ships was even better than that of the Mikasa ships. So imagine a formation of six Potemkin ships + three CORRECTLY built Peresvet ships + three more Poltava ships, which would really bind the entire formation with speed. And this was at the end of 1903.
                        And already at the end of 1904, 6 more fast "Potemkin/Retvizan" ships and 2 "Garibaldians" were added to them. At no point in time since 1903 have the Japanese been able to have even a shadow of not only superiority, but also parity. As a result, war is either simply impossible for them, or suicidal. Even without any consideration of the balance of ground forces.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There was no money for shells, there was no money to increase the number of mobilized people.

                        But there was money for Kshesinskaya’s diamonds and for Witte’s whims.
                        And how did we... and what did we use to build the Trans-Siberian Railway in 8 years?? belay And they didn't get into debt. And they didn't strain the budget, on the contrary - they only sharply increased its filling. How is that? And why is it completely different from now on?
                        And because Alexander III died, and soon the ghoul Witte, who had broken through to power, removed the Russian genius Sharapov from affairs and began to destroy and ruin all his achievements and programs. He dragged the Russian Empire into the premature Far Eastern Adventure, tore it apart in the war, did EVERYTHING for the crushing (exactly THIS) defeat of the Russian Empire in the Russian Empire and, as a result, "rewarded" it (the Russian Empire) with a monstrous and unpayable foreign debt of 3 billion gold rubles. And precisely - GOLD! A debt to his relatives on his grandmother's side - the French Rothschilds.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        gentlemen in London and New York were clearly not satisfied with this outcome and would have come up with something else.

                        They came up with it. In case of our victory in the Russian Empire, they were going to arm the Chinese proxies and then send the American fleet. It was for THIS purpose that the so-called "White Fleet" was built, which in 1908 made a round-the-world voyage... and was supposed to arrive in the Asia-Pacific region for... for us.
                        If we had a smarter tsar and intelligence like under Alexander III, we would have had the Path to Victory even in this scenario. But his sonny pr3s.... missed even that which was in principle impossible to miss. But Niki-0 - CAN.
                        Under Alexander III and Sharapov, the Russian Empire would never have had a shortage of funds to build a fleet, equip a naval base, and staff an Army with sufficient numbers for the Far East. The enemy knew this, so they killed them. So yes, they came up with it.
                      28. 0
                        Yesterday, 10: 23
                        1. The machines could be ordered in St. Petersburg or abroad. All Black Sea battleships had a speed of 14-16 knots. Why one battleship with a record speed? The next pair, "Evstafiy" and "Ioann Zlatoust", also had a speed of slightly more than 16 knots.
                        2. The problem was that initially no one believed in war with Japan and did not prepare for it. Everything else is already a derivative of this premise.
                        3. Alas, history has gone the way it has. Now we can only guess and regret.
                      29. 0
                        Yesterday, 13: 53
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Cars could be ordered in St. Petersburg or abroad.

                        In St. Petersburg, the shipyards were overloaded, and the deviant behavior and mysterious decisions of the government of the last Romanov are no longer surprising.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Why one battleship with a record speed?

                        Why one? The Potemkin class was built in a series of 3 units. But if the Potemkin had been accepted as a project for the Unified Battleship for the Russian Imperial Fleet, they would have been built in a series of 10 units.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The next pair, "Eustathius" and "John Chrysostom", also had a speed of slightly more than 16 knots.

                        And this trio could sail at 18-19 knots.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        2. The problem was that initially no one believed in war with Japan and no one prepared for it.

                        Yes, yes, the young king was VERY perceptive.
                        Just like the Unreplaceable before the SVO - he didn't believe and didn't prepare. "They won't dare."
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. Alas, history has gone the way it has. Now we can only guess and regret.

                        But it is necessary to learn lessons from History.
                        Otherwise she will learn lessons from you.
                        Already extracting.
                        "The long state" and "deep people" (we are not talking about the Russian people, of course), as well as the Great Grandmaster/Geostrategist - everything is "Like under Nicholas II".
                      30. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 41
                        1. Machines and boilers could be ordered abroad, there were more than enough people who wanted them - just pay up.
                        2. There was simply no room to build 3 EBRs in the south. Two at once is the maximum. And why three 18-knot EBRs when there are already dreadnoughts approaching with a speed of 21 knots?
                        3. Do you think GDP is bad? Look at Ukraine (USA). Is it better there? In general, this is my opinion, which I do not impose on anyone. Monarchy is a much better way of governing than democracy (oligarchy).
                        Lessons must be learned. That is what the science of History is for.
                      31. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 07
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Machines and boilers could be ordered abroad, there were more than enough people who wanted them - just pay up.

                        The "sun-faced" Count Witte could not allow this. Remember his famous: "Let's support domestic producers"? Under this slogan, he laid down his bones not allowing the purchase of ships abroad, and when the Naval Ministry finally pushed through the purchase of two battleships and cruisers, he did everything so that this contract did not go to Kramp, so that there would be no single contractor and so that the ships were ordered from different projects - prototypes. And no more than one of each type. So he could not allow the purchase of machines either. Especially under the pretext that ships from the Black Sea Fleet would not be sent to the Pacific Fleet. So they installed the machines that were available - low-power, but domestically produced.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        2. There was simply no place to build 3 EBRs in the south. Two at once is the maximum.

                        At first, only one - "Potemkin", which they even wanted to send to the squadron of Rozhdestvensky with the 3rd squadron ... but its crew rebelled. But the second and third were built simultaneously, but at two different shipyards. But at the time of the project development, it was implied that all battleships would be built according to a single project - according to the project of "Potemkin/Retvizan". And after all, wonderful battleships would have turned out. If they had been built the way the sailors wanted, and not as the "sun-faced Count" was causing harm.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And why three 18-knot EBRs when there are already dreadnoughts approaching with a speed of 21 knots?

                        At that time, no one had heard of a dreadnought, and there were no machines for such powerful propulsion plants - no one had yet installed steam turbines on warships.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        why three EBR 18 knots

                        And you remember how helpless this trio was when they went out to intercept the "Goeben". If they had been producing 18-19 knots, they would have had a much greater chance of hitting. In a word, it was sheer sabotage and staging of defeat in the war. Remember (?) - "When there are more than two coincidences, they are no longer coincidences".
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. Do you think GDP is bad?

                        And Nikola was such a handsome man. And what about the managers? Almost all of them? Just count the coincidences. The king is played by his retinue, and in our case there is no king.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Look at Ukraine (USA). Is it better there?

                        And look at the readiness for war - a country with many times (an order of magnitude) fewer resources, but it turned out to be much better prepared for war (taking into account the difference in resources). Remember HOW the mobilization was carried out there at the very beginning of the Central Military District ... and compare WHAT we had. I don't want to paint everything in black paint, but the parallels with the Russian Nuclear War and WWI are too striking and clearly staged. No one in their right mind, even the most inexperienced and limited ruler would allow this. But it is not the ruler who rules here.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In general, this is purely my opinion, which I do not impose on anyone. Monarchy is a much better way of governing than democracy (oligarchy).

                        Monarchy is justified and can be effective if it:
                        1) Sovereign Monarchy.
                        2) If the monarch receives power BASED ON MERIT and meets his/her competencies.
                        3) If the ruling class, on which the monarch relies, has a national nature and represents a single ethnic and mental whole with the Society.
                        And the monarchy does not provide any guarantee against tyranny, stupidity, betrayal and degeneration. On the contrary - it always and everywhere confirms this. So Nikola sat on the throne legally, but destroyed the Empire, lost two wars, did not understand personnel, did not delve into the management of the country ... Is this really better?
                        Or, on the other hand, the phenomenon of Comrade Stalin - here is an example of a truly People's Monarch ... but within the framework of People's Democracy (his term), a republican state structure and the communist ideology of the Solidarity Society. And all this appeared between two World Wars and during the monstrous Civil War ... which determined all the flaws in its construction and the bloodiness of its methods. Their (the Bolsheviks') opponents were no less bloody, and if they had received power and resources, they would have flooded Russia with blood worse than the Bolsheviks - they would have taken revenge on the People.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Do you think GDP is bad?

                        He was quite good until 2007. And the one after... there are results, statistics, documentary evidence... At least he used to speak more interestingly. Not anymore. But the main thing is that a non-sovereign non-monarch is even worse than a non-sovereign monarch. And just look at the environment. How they behave, how they perform... remember their behavior during the "pandemic"? And in vain, you need to REMEMBER such things.
                        But compared to the rest of the degenerates, yes, it looks good. Even though it's not an eagle.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Lessons must be learned. That is what the science of History is for.

                        We should carefully analyze the history that we know for sure, and using examples of miscalculations, mistakes, betrayals and treachery, develop methods for identifying and stopping such mistakes, eradicating betrayal, avoiding treachery and exemplary punishment of enemies and traitors. In order to prevent relapses.
                        And we have many more “coincidences” than “two”.
                      32. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 27
                        Quote: bayard
                        History tenderly

                        Well, of course, History NEEDS to be analyzed.
                      33. 0
                        Yesterday, 19: 45
                        1. Witte's idea that we should produce it ourselves is quite sound. Another thing is that we should have found a reasonable compromise. Alas, cruisers of the Diana type would have been better not built at all.
                        2. The problem is that, in reality, large battleships could be built
                        only Nikolaev. Sevastopol, smaller in size, did not allow the slipway. Therefore, the construction of three "Potemkin" type would have dragged on for a long time.
                        3. "Dreadnought" entered service in 1906, "Invincible" in 1907, if we think ahead, then the "Evstafiy" class is no longer needed. They were completed because they were already in high stages of readiness, like the Baltic ones, and not because they were needed. "Evstafiy" and "Zlatoust" put up quite a good fight against "Goeben". Let me remind you that the Germans broke off the battle, and did not try to destroy the Russians.
                        4. Management problems exist everywhere. In any country, bureaucracy works for its own benefit. This cannot be changed. There are no other scientific methods.
                        5. People became monarchs in all sorts of ways. Not necessarily by inheritance. "People's democracy" - this can only be perceived as a joke by Comrade Stalin)) there was no hint of democracy.
                        6. I don't think VVP is bad. He took over the country in ruins and didn't let it be finished off. Maybe not everything is as good as we would like. But this is life, not a computer game.
                      34. 0
                        Yesterday, 21: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Witte's idea that we need to produce at home is quite sound. Another thing is that we had to find a reasonable compromise.

                        Who would argue? But we simply couldn't build ships for the Pacific Fleet by the time the Japanese fleet was built, because they had a year and a half head start before they came to their senses and built their fleet at the best English shipyards, i.e. quickly and efficiently. But for us it was long, expensive and all sorts of stuff. The only way out was to order the bulk of the ships for the 1st squadron from foreign shipyards, where both the quality and the pace of construction were higher, and during that time we would modernize our shipyards, work out the designs, select the best possible engines and boilers and build the second squadron ourselves. But given that the forces of the 1st squadron were sufficient to at least confront the Japanese on equal terms. That would have been reasonable. And when this swindler started lying and spreading hysterics in the press that "we are depriving our shipbuilders of orders and thus not developing them", and at the same time simply laying down his bones to prevent orders from abroad. So we lost at least a year, until the Naval Ministry finally pushed through the purchase of two battleships and cruisers. But even here he stuck his nose into every crack, stalling and making nasty noises. And his silk-flayers spread nasty things about Kramp. And Kramp was already in St. Petersburg and working on projects (there were few of his own specialists and they were frankly weak).
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Alas, it would have been better not to build cruisers of the Diana type at all.

                        The "Diana" has an interesting and very revealing story. Initially, according to the technical specifications, these cruisers were supposed to have two 8" guns and eight 6" guns (exactly like the "Bayan"), but at the same time armored decks. The propulsion plant is two-shaft with the best available machines and boilers.
                        What did Witte do?
                        He found some crooks who had never built normal ships and on his orders they cobbled together some kind of scam on their knees like "at least cheap with domestic technology". He proposed a three-shaft installation on an ancient machine made of shit and sticks. And he pushed this decision through the tsar, bypassing the Naval Ministry ... under the flag of "patriotism". And the little tsar signed off on this heresy. The sailors involuntarily accepted the tsar's decision but insisted on maintaining the previous composition of armament ... But no such luck!! The propulsion plant and boilers took up so much space and were so heavy, and ate so much coal ... that the guns no longer fit in there. And without a second thought, the same Witte pushed through the decision ... to abandon the 8" guns ... and not add 6" ... but add 75 mm. because they... "protect bases from destroyers! With such speed and shitty maneuverability. That's how this disgrace of domestic shipbuilding was born.
                        By the way, Witte also slowed down the transfer of new ships to the Pacific Fleet in every way possible. It was because of this that the Retvizan and Tsarevich barely made it to Arthur on the eve of the start of the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area, and the Oslyabya got stuck in Suez along with a number of other ships. So Witte tried AS HARD AS HE COULD. And he achieved his goal.
                        The little king, deceived by him, later called him “my personal enemy.”
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. Dreadnought entered service in 1906, Invincible in 1907.

                        Well, yes, when the Russian Empire was still wiping away the bloody snot of the Russian Empire and paying contributions in the amount of 200 million gold rubles. Only then was it possible to build new ships... Witte managed to collect 11 billion rubles in gold (!!!) in debt from his relatives... a monstrous debt, loss of territories and simply a SHAME of universal proportions. All this is the merit of Witte/Rothschild in the service of the Russian Empire.
                        But our dreadnoughts also turned out so-so.
                        Normal ships appeared only during the USSR, and even then with some nuances.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Evstafiy" and "Zlatoust" put up quite a decent fight against "Goeben". Let me remind you that the German broke off the fight rather than trying to destroy the Russians.

                        But how could he, a cruiser, fight a direct and stubborn battle against two or three squadron battleships with 12" guns? That's not why he was created so fast. But he could always avoid a fight in an unfavorable situation. And our 16-knot irons were absolutely/completely incapable of chasing him.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "People's democracy" - this can only be perceived as a joke by Comrade Stalin))

                        No joke - just an amendment to the word democracy, changing the nature of the term. For since all power and all wealth according to the Constitution belongs to the People, it follows that they are the richest, most powerful and most possessive in the country. A sort of collective Socio-Demos. lol Socialism was not built immediately in these countries.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        6. I don't think VVP is bad. He took over the country in ruins and didn't let it be finished off.

                        Well, I don't think he's bad either, especially compared to Yeltsin or Medvedev. It's just that he's a "hired manager" - that's what he's called himself many times. And he certainly wasn't the one making the decisions (at least until this spring). Remember his response to Kvachkov's letter on behalf of the Officers' Union? True, Kvachkov decided that he had removed himself from the picture... but in fact, he never removed himself from the picture. It was just that way from the start. It's neither good nor bad, it's like in the US, where the personality of the president is not important, the deep state rules, and another... actor... does the voice-over. It's just that in the US, the "deep state" rules everything, and in the Russian Federation, some "deep people". But in Russia, there is a president as a brand with a specific name.
                        Perhaps something is changing with this now, but judging by the personnel of the upper echelons of government and parliament... not really.
                        stability.
                        So not much depends on the personality of the GDP.
                        And that is precisely why I have no particular complaints about him.
                      35. 0
                        2 December 2024 02: 55
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        It is difficult to say whether the Retvizan was worse than the Tsarevich? The Japanese had all their 152mm caliber in casemates. Somehow they fought the entire war on new Mikasa and others

                        The casemate placement of auxiliary artillery was the most optimal at that time - in a casemate the crew has more space, more room, better ventilation, it is possible to accumulate more shells, and during the battle only charges can be supplied by the elevator, due to greater convenience the crews get tired less, provide a higher rate of fire and can maintain a high rate of fire for much longer. This was shown by combat practice, including the Russian Nuclear Forces. And that is why in many countries both before and after WWI auxiliary artillery was placed in casemates, and only later, when gun turrets for VK of perfect design appeared, with good ventilation and convenient for the crew, casemates were gradually abandoned. VK turrets on Russian battleships were far from perfect and showed lower productivity and accuracy of fire than casemate batteries.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The boilers were most likely replaced with Japanese ones not to increase the speed, but to avoid problems with the stokers.

                        Most likely, this is exactly it, and possibly because they were disabled before the delivery or from the fire of siege artillery. The authentic boilers and machines on the shafts of the "Retvizan" produced up to 17 hp, this could have provided it with a speed even higher than 400 knots. The problem was in the propellers. Simply because of the rush with acceptance (the Russian customers were in a hurry - the war was just around the corner) there was simply not enough time to make new ones and replace the propellers with more rational ones. This was postponed for later. Then the Japanese did it.
                        If we had managed to order a series of such battleships from Kramp, and with rational propellers... and with armored ends like the "Caesar"... that would have been... then EVERYTHING would have been different. The war would have been won and all of History would have gone differently. For the better for us.
                      36. 0
                        2 December 2024 09: 06
                        In general, yes, the casemate placement of anti-mine caliber was abandoned only after the PVM. Although, the casemate system was also criticized. In the event of armor penetration and an explosion inside the casemate, several guns and crews were put out of action.
                        It is possible, of course, that the crew tried to disable the machine. Although, according to the memoirs of the Japanese, the damage to the ships sunk in Port Arthur was insignificant. Excluding what they did with their 11 - dm. The samurai were not particularly worried about the personnel, especially about the private.
                      37. 0
                        1 December 2024 23: 48
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But no one invited him anywhere; he came up with such proposals himself.

                        Actually, invitations to participate in the competition were sent to many shipyards, and Kramp's slipways were being vacated and there were no new orders in sight. This is from one big article on this topic, sort of translated from "The History of Kramp's Shipyards" with a photo of the battleship "Prince Potemkin" on the title page, the unfinished project of which served as the basis for the "Retvizan" project. The article began with approximately the following words: "Why are these battleships so similar that at first glance they can be confused." What I am citing is precisely from that article. I don't remember on which resource. That's where the whole story about Kramp's adventures in Russia is laid out. It is clear that this is an American view, but Kramp is still an American and this is from a book about the history of his shipyard/shipyards. That is why there are so many details there. Perhaps based on the memories of his descendants or even diaries, I can’t remember now, several years have passed.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        He himself came up with such proposals.

                        That's right - having learned that the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Empire needed battleships, cruisers and destroyers, he decided to offer everything at once. Moreover, the Russian side was interested in building a shipyard in Artur or Dalniy. Kramp offered this too, promising to involve his friend, who specialized in building large factories and shipyards. And he himself offered to organize production and even head it or put his son, who was also in business and at that time replaced him in the management of the shipyard, in charge. This is all from there too - i.e. a view from the opposite side of the dispute. In our country, Kramp was always called a crook and other bad words, in the history of his shipyard he appears as a romantic and an ascetic, and it is there that it is indicated that he wanted either to head the construction and management of the shipyard in Artur/Dalniy himself, or to put his son in charge of this business. And yes, he wanted to grab the entire order, including 50 destroyers (that was the number planned to be built for the Pacific Fleet).
                        I don't think that our authors are objective enough in everything and it would be useful to consider some questions of our own history from different angles... otherwise, for one-sided observers, it is either triangular, or square, or round. Until you turn it from different sides, an objective picture will not emerge. Our historians sometimes make "Sevastopol" look like "miracle battleships"...
                        The history of the Russian Empire is interesting and significant in that it marked the beginning and became the prologue and one of the main reasons for the demise of the Russian Empire. And the deeper you delve into this history, the more clearly you see that both before and on the eve of the Russian Empire, literally EVERYTHING in the Russian Empire was already... not like that. Almost nothing at all. Just like now in the Russian Federation. The same stupid leadership, stupid and thieving officials, careerist generals/admirals with the seal of professional incompetence, sabotage and wrecking at all levels, the fifth column and the sixth column dancing in a squat, a spy sitting on a wrecker and driving a saboteur... That's when sometimes there is a desire to find key points and consider alternative solutions for lost wars and confrontations. Sometimes just for mental gymnastics.
                        Based on the "history of the shipyards\Krump shipyard" I know that he proposed and the Naval Board considered the issue of building two battleships and two cruisers. Kramp proposed building cruisers according to the "Asama" project, and battleships according to the "Alabama" project. But the Board wanted a different battleship. And the project approvals began. "Retvizan" really is like two peas in a pod with "Potemkin", only faster and with four 6" guns less. So what is wrong then?
                        And yes - before leaving home he received a telegram from his son to come back soon, customers were coming. But before that Kramp had no customers and he quite seriously intended to build 4 armored ships. For an armored ship and an armored cruiser you need the same slipway and their construction takes about the same amount of time. So there is no particular difference for the shipyard to build 2+2 or just 4 armored ships. That is why I consider my proposal to order 4 armored ships instead of 2+2 quite realistic, and for Kramp even more profitable - 4 ships of the same project. And even earn more.
                        The same thing with the French - to order another "Tsarevich" instead of "Bayan" means to receive them at the same time as they were received. Especially since "Bayan" arrived in Arthur earlier than "Tsarevich".
                      38. 0
                        2 December 2024 01: 01
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        "Retvizan" with weapons cost 11 rubles, not including ammunition, "Tsarevich" without it - 516.

                        There was some story with the settlements on "Retvizan" with the sharply cheaper silver, perhaps because of this the price grew. The contract price of the construction was 8 million rubles in gold (actually in dollars but in gold). When the time came to settle the accounts, Witte decided to settle in silver. But then, as luck would have it, the world price for this metal fell and he had to pay according to the new rate. In gold the price was the same. So the contract price is indicated in dollars or at the rate of 8 million rubles in gold. At that time they still paid in metallic money.
                        And yet the difference is 1 million+, and that’s serious money, Witte spent all his time on it... and the general-admiral simply squandered it.
                        But let's look at these ships not by the principle of beauty of forms and implemented innovations, but compare their combat value. And it is the same for them - the same guns and their number, the same degree of protection (the Caesar's is slightly better thought out, but in principle the level of protection is of the same order), the same speed (but with optimal screws, the Retvizan would have been faster) ... but there are already questions about the fire output. Of course, we are not talking about the main battery, but about the auxiliary one. So, the casemate battery had by definition greater fire output and could maintain it at this level for much longer. The reason is simple - casemates are much more spacious and convenient for calculations, better ventilation can be organized there, less powder gases accumulate, so the calculations are less tired, they are more comfortable and they shoot faster. And auxiliary caliber gun turrets were just beginning to be introduced then, they were cramped, rather inconvenient (because they were round) and at that time showed much lower fire performance, which decreased much faster in the event of a protracted battle. That is why many fleets both in WWI and after it preferred casemate batteries to VK gun turrets.
                        So, in terms of all parameters, the ships are equivalent in combat. But at the same time, the Retvizan is simpler, cheaper, and faster to build. So, as a single battleship for the Russian Navy, I would definitely choose the Retvizan, but with the hull armor system from the Tsarevich.
                        And regarding the price comparison... this is when one ship costs 1 million+. But what if we are talking about a series of six ships? What if the "Borodinets" were built according to the same project, which cost more than 15 million each to build? And considering that due to their simpler design they would also be built faster and would be completed on time?
                        The problem must be considered as a whole. Then the solutions will be correct.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: bayard
                        At a speed of 19 knots!! This is the speed he achieved after replacing the propellers with more efficient ones in Japan.
                        And with, according to rumors, the replacement of Nikloss boilers with Miyabara or something like that.

                        But the machines are the same. And the power on the shafts of the "Retvizan" was given with the original boilers. So the boilers are problematic. But the main thing is the propellers.
                      39. +1
                        2 December 2024 09: 13
                        Quote: bayard
                        In our country, Kramp was always called a crook and other bad words, but in the history of his shipyard he appears as a romantic and an ascetic.

                        Dear bayard, who was Kramp, a devotee or a swindler, is perfectly illustrated by the fact of the construction of the cruiser "Zabiyaka", which Kramp made for us in 1878-1879.
                        1. With a two-month late;
                        2. With submerging at 1 foot - it must be said that under the terms of the contract, when the ship’s draft, which is more than a foot draft, the Navy had the right to refuse the cruiser altogether;
                        3. With a maximum speed in 14,5 knots - that is, half a node below the contract;
                        4. And, finally, with the consumption of coal and a half times greater than it was supposed under the terms of the contract.
                        But with such data (an epic fail, in fact) on February 22, 1879, the "Bully" went out for trial runs, from which Charles Crump created a real show. The cruiser easily reached a maximum speed of 15,5 knots, exceeding the contract speed by half a knot:)) Of course, there were journalists on board the ship and the unexpectedly high performance of the ship literally blew up, as they say now, the "information space" - the "New York Herald" spoke of the "Bully" in superlatives, and the most respectable magazine "American Ship" even managed to declare that "the ship surpasses any military cruiser built in the world."
                        The journalists, not being professionals, overlooked one very important nuance – the "Zabiyaka" went on the run not just underloaded, but totally underloaded. With a design displacement of 1 tons, in which it was supposed to be tested, C. Crump took the cruiser out on the run with a displacement of only 236 tons. Of course, shipbuilders from other countries were guilty of similar methods, but... with a THIRD of the displacement?!:))))
                        Crump proposed to build a cruiser with a speed of 15,5 knots for $250, but then gradually increased its price to $275, that is, $25 more. However, this amount did not satisfy C. Crump at all, and therefore, during the construction, he, insisting on all sorts of nuances not specified in the contract, managed to demand for himself over-the-contract payments in the amount of $50! Thus, the full cost of the "Bully" was approaching $662, which was more than 325,6% higher than the initial price of the Boston shipyard.
                        At the same time, I do not argue with the fact that Crump could be both a romantic and an ascetic. But the fact that he was also a swindler is absolutely certain:))))) In big businessmen, such things often coexist.
                        Quote: bayard
                        There was some story with the calculations for Retvizan with the sharply cheaper silver

                        And what does silver have to do with it? Why is it here at all? If my sclerosis doesn't lie to me, the Retvizan with armor but without weapons cost $4 under the contract. The Tsarevich - 328 francs or $000 US dollars.
                        But at the same time, the "Tsarevich" was built, although without armament, but with French turrets, the cost of which I do not know exactly, but could well have reached 550 thousand dollars (eight pieces - 12-inch and 6-inch). We made 12-inch turrets for the Retvizan ourselves (this is about 253 thousand dollars). Another 489 dollars were over-contract payments to Kramp. And also - the Franks made the ship turnkey without armament, and we had a lot of additional deliveries for the mechanical part, not included in the contract.
                        That's all, and no silver prices have anything to do with it. The cost of the ships was determined not by the price of some silver, but by the dollar to ruble value on the date of payment. And as a result, the total cost of the ships (with ammunition and other things) was, according to the "Most Submissive Report on the Naval Department for 1897-1900", "Tsarevich" - 14 rubles and "Retvizan" - 004 rubles "with mechanisms, armor, artillery, mines and combat supplies."
                        Quote: bayard
                        If only we could order a series of such battleships from Cramp

                        No, it couldn't have been like that - Kramp got by with Nikloss' boilers "on the sly", no one would have let him build another battleship with such boilers, there was a direct ban from the MTC
                        Quote: bayard
                        The same thing with the French - to order another "Tsarevich" instead of "Bayan" means to receive them at the same time as they were received

                        How so?:)))) Actually, Bayan's construction began 10 months later than the "Tsesarevich", if there had been a second "Tses" in its place, it would have only been ready for the 2nd Pacific War
                        Quote: bayard
                        But the machines are the same. And the power on the shafts of the "Retvizan" was given with the original boilers. So the boilers are problematic. But the main thing is the propellers.

                        What difference does it make what kind of propellers a ship uses if, when trying to reach maximum speed, its boilers boil the stokers?
                      40. -1
                        2 December 2024 20: 56
                        I don't even know where this legend came from, that "Bogatyr" is a smaller, BP-less copy of "Yakumo". Only because they were built by the same shipyard? Otherwise, the ship was developed according to the Russian TTZ for the requirements of the Far East, while all the "aces" had their cruising qualities sacrificed to armor and artillery. They had two 152-mm., more than the much larger "Rossiya" and "Gromoboy". Each of the German firms that built cruisers for the RIF proceeded from their own
                        possibilities and how she saw these ships, because the cruisers built according to the same technical specifications - "Askold" and "Bogatyr" - turned out to be completely different.
                      41. +1
                        2 December 2024 21: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I don't even know where this legend came from, that "Bogatyr" is a smaller, BP-less copy of "Yakumo". Just because they were built by the same shipyard?

                        This is not a legend, but the truth of life.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Otherwise, the ship was developed according to the Russian technical specifications for the requirements of the Far East, while all the "aces" had cruising qualities

                        So what? Did it somehow prevent them from taking the theoretical drawing of Yakumo, modifying it for increased speed, removing the side armor, etc.? It didn't prevent them at all. Therefore, the Germans simply modified the drawings to the new technical specifications. These are cruisers after all, so to make them from the BRBO "Bogatyr", yes, it is easier to draw everything from scratch.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        They had two 152mm guns, more than the much larger Rossiya and Gromoboy.

                        So 14 is two more than 16? Well... okay, if you say so:)))
                      42. 0
                        2 December 2024 22: 55
                        The differences in armor are the differences in ship designs. Their strength and weight in "Yakumo" should be significantly thicker and heavier. Frames, stringers, beams, etc. And therefore, the project had to be recalculated very seriously. So, they have in common only the general layout and even then, not quite. "Yakumo" has a solid casemate of 152 mm. And "Bogatyr" has four separate casemates and four are open, only the shield. And its engine is significantly different - 24 "Belleville" boilers took up much more space. So, I do not see anything in common between them, except for the appearance.
                        Regarding "Russia" and Co", I apologize - I forgot. It's been a while since I refreshed my memory.
                      43. 0
                        2 December 2024 21: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        They had two 152mm guns, more than the much larger Rossiya and Gromoboy.

                        Yeah. Asama and her sisters have 14-152mm. Yakumo and Azuma have 12. The Rurikovichs have... 16.
                        You should already get the materiel so as not to embarrass yourself.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The cruisers built according to the same design specifications - "Askold" and "Bogatyr" - turned out to be completely different.

                        Strange. And Boyarin seems to you to be a continuation of Novik, although the difference between them is about the same as between Bogatyr and Askold
                      44. 0
                        2 December 2024 22: 37
                        Yes, about "Rossiya" and "Gromoboy", I somehow forgot. However, in the battle it had little effect, in the broadside the Japanese still had more.
                        Not quite similar - this does not mean different types. It's just that the ships were very different visually. The Russians gave the Germans carte blanche and each company sculpted a cruiser as it saw it. The same applies to the "Boyarin" and "Novik". The Russians only gave a common technical specification, and then, the builder's imagination took over. There was no thought about unification back then.
                      45. 0
                        30 November 2024 22: 29
                        Quote: bayard
                        So the American Crump was ready (and expected) to build two battleships and two armored cruisers for Russia (i.e. he could

                        The fact that counted that's one thing, but what could completely different. request
                        He has only two slipways. Look at the real load and think who he would prefer, his government or someone else's? feel
                      46. 0
                        1 December 2024 03: 51
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        He has only two slipways.

                        The slipway period of a battleship like the Retvizan is about 15 months. The lead ship may have a little more. Then - launching for completion afloat and laying down of the next one. So he would have made it before 1903. Especially if they hadn't dragged out the order for so long. Cramp spent about 1,5 years in Russia and was counting on much more - four battleships of the Retvizan and Asama classes, 50 destroyers with delivery in disassembled form and assembly in Artur, construction of a large shipyard in Artur or Dalniy and his own move there or the appointment of his son there). When he was thwarted and almost deprived of the order altogether, there was a huge scandal. The Russian Empire showed itself in this case worse than India with airplanes today - the dance was something else. As a result, he was given an order for a battleship and an armored cruiser, while his arms were twisted so much with the price that he left Russia in a rage.
                        And all because Witte conspired with his relatives the Rothschilds in France and wanted to transfer the entire order to the French. But because of the scandal that arose, the order was divided "equally". But the French were overpaid, and Kramp ... He built "Retvizan" for 8 million rubles!!! At the same time, he was paid in silver, although they agreed to pay in gold.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Look at the real load and think about who he preferred, his government or someone else's?

                        The US government had not ordered anything from Crump at the time of those negotiations. But having heard that he was ready (apparently) to even move to Russia (they say they don't value him here) and build ships there, they rushed to place an order. I suspect that he could have used the quality of the Varyag to take revenge on us for such an attitude. But they could have not only built the ships, but also lured away a wonderful shipbuilder. feel
                      47. 0
                        1 December 2024 09: 12
                        Quote: bayard
                        Next - launching for completion afloat and laying down of the next one. So it would have been done before 1903.

                        Where will you get guns?
                        "Slava" did not make it to the VTE not because the hull was not ready.
                        Quote: bayard
                        was counting on much more - four armored ships of the Retvizan and Asama classes

                        The Americans couldn't make the Asama at that time.
                        They could have made the Pennsylvania. Same armament, slightly faster, but a displacement of almost 15 tons.
                        Our people would never agree to such a ship. And in fact, the American government was a little... stunned by what happened.
                        Quote: bayard
                        He built "Retvizan" for 8 million rubles!!!

                        Compare the cost of the Varyag with German-built cruisers. Overall, everything was fine with the price. No one worked at a loss.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The US government had not ordered anything from Crump at the time of those negotiations.

                        And then it ordered.
                        You are trying to proceed from hindsight, aren't you? So be consistent.
                        Quote: bayard
                        (sort of)

                        That's exactly what "sort of" is. Gossip and nothing more.
                      48. 0
                        1 December 2024 16: 41
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You are trying to proceed from hindsight, aren't you? So be consistent.

                        Let's try. Japan's shipbuilding program was adopted in 1895. In response, we started our own program in 1896. That's the date we should start from. Around that time, consultations with Cramp began (even before his arrival in Russia) and the search for foreign contractors for the design and construction of ships. That is, there was enough time, and there were foreign shipyards ready to accept such orders. After all, we proceed from the fact that in the Russian Empire (unlike in reality) the threat of war was realized, as well as the extent of this threat, and they began to take retaliatory measures responsibly and consistently (which was not the case in reality). The first candidate for such a contract for the construction of battleships was precisely Cramp - he had experience, he was not overloaded with orders, and he had two slipways for their construction. And for some time he was considered as the main contractor, and he willingly agreed, because the order was very appetizing and had further prospects. In any case, Cramp was counting on it. That is why he came to St. Petersburg and began to coordinate the contract and the project of the battleship and cruisers. During the process of coordination in England, the launch of the "Asama" was already being prepared and Cramp went to England to look and be present. And he was impressed and inspired - he immediately proposed to build the cruisers according to the project based on the "Asama".
                        Could / couldn't?
                        The "Asam" had engines with a capacity of 17 hp. And he could definitely do this even on the "Retvizan", so his cruiser would most likely have reached a speed of 000 - 20 knots. How successful it would have been in other respects, who knows, but his "Retvizan" turned out to be even with rational propellers giving 20,5 knots (though already at the Japanese). So I think it would have been quite possible, and even with 19" guns of 10 calibers long.
                        But we are not talking about building a series of "Asamites" for the Pacific Fleet (although that would be nice), because based on hindsight we know for sure that it was precisely the fast battleships that needed to be built - they decided everything in that war. Therefore, Kramp could well have built 4 "Retvizans". Especially if the project approvals had been completed at least half a year earlier. And those six months were spent on scandals and the usual delays.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Where will you get guns?
                        "Slava" did not make it to the VTE not because the hull was not ready.

                        And again, armed with hindsight, we remember that the artillery department for the Pacific Fleet wanted to equip the battleships with 12" guns of a length of ... 45 calibers. But the machine tool stock did not allow it (they could only have 40 calibers of 12", or 45 calibers of 10"). New machine tools could have been ordered in France, but ... the general-admiral spent all the money on Kshesinskaya's diamonds. And if he hadn't spent it? If he hadn't been a fool or if a completely different person was responsible for the matter? After all, we are considering an alternative, when the Russian Empire is really preparing for war. So, during the specified period, it would have been possible to order and receive new machine tools and we would have received not only the opportunity to produce all the necessary guns for ships and coastal artillery by the deadline, but also to receive guns for the battleships that would penetrate the defense of Japanese battleships at a much greater distance, and at a normal combat distance - guaranteed and from any angle. That is, the very same qualitative advantage that was so lacking in the RYA would have been achieved. And the "old" machines instead of 40-caliber 12" could have sharpened 45-caliber barrels for 10" guns for cruisers. But more about cruisers later. As a conclusion on guns - timely purchase of new machines and expansion of production would have led not only to the fact that there would be enough guns for all ships under construction, but also for coastal artillery. And they would have been ready on time - by mid-1903.
                        Regarding the construction of ships in France, it would also be rational to order TWO high-speed battleships there. Moreover, armed with hindsight, demand to build according to the design/configuration of the "Potemkin/Retvizan". This would save time (ships are easier to manufacture), some money (since such battleships are cheaper) and would receive not the "Bayan" with its absurd armament, but two high-speed battleships, and on time and of the same type as the "Retvizans".
                        Here for the Pacific Fleet and 6 high-speed battleships of foreign construction by mid-1903. Moreover, with a high degree of probability with 45-caliber main guns. Let's add to them the already built "Poltavets" and "Peresvetets" - here you have the core of the armored forces of the Pacific Fleet in 12 pennants. And this is without taking into account the construction of "Borodintsev" according to the design of the same "Potemkin\Retvizan" (because it is simpler, faster, cheaper, more reliable ... and also on time), the possibility of buying out "Nishin" and "Kasuga" (it was necessary to do this, at least so that the Japanese do not get them).
                        This way, with the same capacities, the same contractors and the same projects, it was possible to obtain a homogeneous and very high-quality Pacific Fleet configuration.
                      49. 0
                        1 December 2024 18: 43
                        Japan's shipbuilding program was adopted in 1895. In response, we started our own program in 1896. This is the date we should start from.

                        At the end of 1897.
                        During the approval process in England, the launch of the Asama was already being prepared, and Crump went to England to watch and be present.

                        Did he tell you about this himself?
                        Quote: bayard
                        Crump - he had experience, he was not overloaded with orders and he had two slipways for their construction.

                        It's certainly busy.
                        After 1895, when two ocean liners of 15000 tons each were delivered, the Iowa was built (1893-1896) and at the same time the Brooklyn, followed by the Alabama (1896-1900) and at about the same time the Kasagi, then the Maine (1899-1902) and the Medjidie (1901-1903)
                        This schedule could have fit two ships. Crump did it. There's no more room!
                        It's about the same with the other points.
                        By God, colleague, I appreciate your flight of fancy, but before you come up with such pearls, try to at least somehow reconcile it with reality.
                      50. 0
                        1 December 2024 21: 29
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        At the end of 1897.

                        I agree, but work on this shipbuilding program began in 1895, and was accepted in 1897, when the projects were agreed upon and contractors were determined. But it was known that they were working on such a program in Japan.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Did he tell you about this himself?

                        I'm not that old. I read, of course, that he went as part of the Russian naval delegation - to the presentation of the "Asama". Perhaps even on this site, but it's not certain, years have passed. A fairly detailed narrative about the history of Kramp in Russia and why the "Retvizan" and "Prince Potemkin" are so similar.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It's certainly busy.
                        After 1895, when two ocean liners of 15000 tons each were delivered, the Iowa was built (1893-1896) and at the same time the Brooklyn, followed by the Alabama (1896-1900) and at about the same time the Kasagi, then the Maine (1899-1902) and the Medjidie (1901-1903)

                        When Crump was in Russia, the Alabama was being built at his shipyard, the design of which he immediately proposed for the Pacific Fleet. But our Naval Collegium (or whatever it was then) did not like the design and Crump joined in the development of the Potemkin design, which was then called an "improved Peresvet" (of course, at an early stage). While waiting for the project to be completed, a message came about the presentation of the Asama and Crump went to England as part of the Russian naval delegation. Everything from that publication.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        "Maine" (1899-1902) and "Medjidie" (1901-1903)

                        These orders were received by Crump AFTER the order for the Retvizan was received and it was clear that there would be no other orders. If he had received the order for 4 ships, as he wanted, the US government order would have simply gone to another shipyard, and Crump, quite pleased with himself, would have built four ships for the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Empire.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Before you come up with such pearls, try to somehow reconcile them with reality.

                        This is the basis for planning and management based on reality. On the current reality. The Kramp shipyard had a window of orders, there was no queue at that time, he received an offer, he replied that he could build 4 armored ships and went to Russia for a contract. What's wrong? The order in Russia turned out to be smaller, and new customers started pouring in again. You look not only at the graph, but also at the dynamics of the process. It was then - in 1897-1898 - that the Russian Empire had the opportunity to place an order for 4 armored ships. But in 1899, there was no longer such an opportunity. And the graph you provided only confirms this.
                        I simply considered the optimal option for planning and management at a specific moment in the history of the Russian Empire with a practical solution to specific problems based on known facts. The Russian Empire then missed almost all the opportunities it had for the correct solution to the problems and tasks that arose then. Missed everything, lost everything. Which became the prologue to its imminent demise.
                      51. 0
                        1 December 2024 18: 37
                        Well, a little more about cruisers.
                        A high-speed wing for the armored forces of the Pacific Fleet would certainly not hurt us, but the problem here is that this required machines with a capacity of 17 - 000 hp. In fact, we ordered such and even paid for the development - from the German company "Vulcan" (it turned out more than) and from Kramp (on "Varyag" it turned out quite ... so-so, but on "Retvizan" it turned out quite well). But since we are considering an alternative, then ... let's remember about the Japanese order for their cruisers. In England, we managed to order only battleships and 20 cruisers. And two more cruisers were ordered from Germany and France ... Oops! But we could have easily bought up these orders ... or rather, beat the Japanese orders with our own, even with an overpayment. And they would have killed two birds with one stone - they would have received two additional armored cruisers for the Pacific Fleet on time, and they would have disrupted the Japanese program for completing the construction of the fleet in 000. And their curators in England would have had to solve a dilemma: build two more cruisers for the Japanese at their shipyards to the detriment of building cruisers for their own fleet, or ... extend the construction cycle of the Asamite series for at least another year. Both birds turned out to be very fat ... and even a third one got in among them - England in any case would have built these two cruisers to the detriment of its own program, and therefore would have had two cruisers less by time "H".
                        What would we get? Firstly, two cruisers. Not the best in comparison with the "Asama", because both the German and French cruisers had less powerful engines (about 15 hp), 000 instead of 12 auxiliary caliber guns (14") and a speed of 6 knots. If we could have installed our 20-caliber 8" main guns instead of 45" main guns without losing speed ... that would have been quite good. And then we could have immediately agreed on an option for two more cruisers, but of an improved design - with 10 hp engines from the Vulcan company. And the next two cruisers could have turned out to be VERY successful.
                        Would Germany not agree to build armored ships at the expense of its own program?
                        Well, it depends on how you approach the matter, there is more work for diplomats. We have already helped Germany get a base and trading post in Jindao... why not promise another one... say in Korea? Or even in Japan, if we decide to bend them over completely? It would have been possible to come to an agreement. If we had done it wisely, diligently and honestly - without stealing technical documentation and refusing to fulfill agreements. Germany could well have built us two more armored cruisers... but with the French, there is a question. But in any case, we could well have gotten 4 armored cruisers with the speed and level of protection equal to the Asama, but with 10" main battery guns. Although, of course, we would have liked 6 pieces. And the Garibaldi are not an alternative here - their speed is really no higher than 18 knots and they are not suitable for a high-speed wing. But 4 such cruisers would have been quite enough for us.
                        And ... about the "Peresvets". After all, we are considering an alternative starting from 1896. When the "Peresvets" are already being laid down and built ... the project must be revised right on the slipway and the following changes must be made:
                        - the forecastle needs to be cut by one deck,
                        - also reduce the height of the casemates by at least one deck, and the casemates themselves, instead of sticking out from behind the cut side, are moved approximately 1,5 meters toward the axis of the ship - to provide greater stability and eliminate the risk of rapid capsizing.
                        - the architecture of the casemate itself should be changed according to the model of the Potemkin or at least according to the model of the Retvizan, there should be 6 16" guns (8 pieces per side as on the Potemkin), because the length of the ship is greater than that of any domestic battleship and the length of the casemate allows this),
                        - due to the weight savings from reducing the height of the forecastle and casemates, we increase the armor of the armor belt to 225 mm, and the casemates to 152 mm.
                        - and we change the main gun to 12" guns... if we're lucky - 45 calibers long.
                        As a result, instead of strange and unsuccessful "cruisers" we get quite decent and (yes) fast battleships with a speed of 18 knots, excellent armament, on THREE old-style machines, but providing the necessary squadron speed for action in the same formation with new battleships. Three pieces. That is, instead of a headache from "where to put them!!?" we get three full-fledged battleships with an acceptable speed.
                        As a result, even without the "Borodinets" we have in the Pacific Fleet 9 new high-speed battleships + 3 small, but very strong and combat-ready "Poltavets" + 4 armored cruisers with 10" main battery guns.
                        With such main forces of the Pacific Fleet it is quite possible to fight even proactively - i.e. to start first, and not wait for the Japanese to attack. Especially since we still have 3 "semi-armored cruisers"\raiders in the Vladivostok detachment... And in the Baltic, brand new 6 "Borodinets" + 2 "Garibaldians" and modernized "Sisoy" and "Navarin" are already ready. Which could be sent to the Pacific Fleet as a fully-fledged and combat-ready squadron, capable of single-handedly meeting the main forces of the Japanese fleet or simply changing the balance of power so radically that Japan's capitulation would simply be the only option, despite its defensive alliance with England.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Compare the cost of the Varyag with German-built cruisers. Overall, everything was fine with the price. No one worked at a loss.

                        It's not that Kramp built something at a loss, but that he spent too much effort, time and energy to get a very promising order, and in the end they twisted his arm with the price. After all, he wasn't building ordinary ships, but was striving to achieve record speed characteristics, to make "the best battleship in the world" and "the best cruiser". These were just prototypes. And he had very big plans for Russia ... but the Evil Genius Witte intervened and ruined and broke everything for everyone ... led Russia to defeat, burdened it with simply unbearable debts (11 billion gold rubles) to the French Rothschilds and prepared the basis for revolutions and the collapse of the Russian Empire.
                      52. 0
                        1 December 2024 20: 06
                        And a little more about armored cruisers. Since we're on the subject.
                        First about the "Noviks". As we know, the company "Shihau" expected and was promised an order for 4 such cruisers... but they were deceived, and even the documentation was stolen. No. Not good. In our alternative reality, we will not allow such a dirty trick and we will keep our word - we are ordering 4 cruisers as promised. But we are making some changes to the project. 25 knots is great, of course, but we remember the shortcomings of this cruiser - lack of cruising range and weak artillery armament, which did not allow normal combat with enemy armored deck ships. Therefore, we are changing the technical specifications - speed 24 knots, VI 4000 - 4500 tons. And no restrictions on the hull length in connection with these changes, say up to 130 m. +. Thanks to this, we are increasing the artillery, moreover, we are ordering its composition in two versions:
                        - 10-12 120 mm. guns,
                        - and the second option - 8 6" guns.
                        And we order two cruisers with this artillery configuration.
                        And at our shipyards we order 8 more of these cruisers according to the same projects. And also equally. As a result, we will get 6 cruisers with 120 mm. and 152 mm. guns. Which will surpass any enemy armored deck ships in speed and armament.
                        By mid-1903 we certainly won't build everything, but we'll definitely be able to build at least 6 of them and transfer them to the Pacific Fleet. Plus there will be "Boyarin"... which it would also be desirable to build according to the same or similar project, and since this is a gift to the Russian Tsar from his mother's family - the Danish royal family, it wouldn't be a sin for the Russian monarch, as a relative, to add his own money, but to receive a ship according to the required project.
                        "Gods-inis"... we know what will come of this... That's why we cut Witte's initiative ("let's support our manufacturer") at the root, and kick him out for sabotage. We are building these armored deck ships according to a completely different project, which was what the naval ministry wanted (or whatever it was then), namely:
                        - we order machines in Germany with the purchase of a license and all technical documentation, the same ones that Figma "Germany" installed on "Askold", but not 3 pieces, we install two ... which will give a power on the shafts of about 17 hp and have very compact and efficient boilers,
                        - We limit the upper limit of VI to 7000 - 7500 tons.
                        - we are strengthening the armor of the deck slopes as in the Askold,
                        - the composition of the artillery should be the same as they originally wanted to receive - two 8" guns in light barbettes and light turrets with anti-splinter armor except for the frontal plate, and 8 guns of 6" caliber, anti-mine 75 mm. no more than 12 pieces.
                        - hull length 130 m.+ (but less than 140 m.),
                        - the speed on such machines and with such a hull will be within 21-22 knots, even if the machines assembled under license produce slightly less power.
                        As a result, we get some kind of unarmored "Bayans", but with a speed no lower than Japanese armored deck ships and higher (albeit not by much) than Japanese armored cruisers.
                        And we are building 6-8 of these. Even if we only manage to send 4 of them to the Pacific Fleet, the rest will become part of the Second Squadron.
                        Instead of "Bogatyrs", as we remember, we are building armored cruisers on the same machines, but "Askold" can and should be ordered 2-3 units. Two will definitely be in time. But Askolds can be allowed VI up to 6500-7000 tons for the sake of a larger coal reserve and overall autonomy, the speed will still remain above 24 knots (during testing, of course). We leave the composition and placement of artillery the same - they will work as leaders of light forces ("noviki", destroyers) and raiders for compatibility.
                        And of course we do not spare money on deepening the fairways in Artur, building batteries in Artur, Dalniy and Vladivostok, and building a dry dock in Artur.
                        Now you can fight.

                        Where to get the money for all this?
                        Yes, from the same place where they took money for the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway and the CER. The Russian financial genius Sharapov is still alive and well, so he should be appointed Minister of Finance in Witte's place - he will find money for everything and will not get into debt.
                        This is an alternative reality, if... there had been a normal tsar in the Russian Empire (at least Alexander III had lived another 3-10 years) and he had put in charge not thieves and sycophants, but people of Word and Deed. hi
          2. 0
            30 November 2024 22: 25
            Quote: TermNachTER
            EBR "Tsesarevich" ("Prince Suvorov") - 20 boilers "Belleville" - 2 PM, 18 knots. speed. EBR "Oslyabya" - 30 boilers "Belleville" - 3 PM, 18,5 knots. speed on trials. What's the point?

            The point is not in the boilers. More precisely, not only...
            Quote: TermNachTER
            Both the Tsarevich and the Peresvet were equipped with Belleville boilers and triple-expansion steam engines.

            It's just that the cars are a little different.
            The Peresvets and their predecessors had three-cylinder engines.
            That is, with one high-pressure cylinder, one medium-pressure cylinder and one low-pressure cylinder.
            But more modern ships had four cylinders!
            Two low-pressure cylinders allowed steam to be used more efficiently. That is why three Peresvet engines produced 15 hp, while two Tsesar engines produced 000. Retvizan had even more - 16700 (though with problems).
            Our people couldn't make four-cylinder cars without foreign help. request
            1. 0
              30 November 2024 22: 34
              What prevented them from buying German machines? They used to buy them and nothing happened? And boilers as well. Instead of Belleville, the same German Schulz-Thornycroft. They showed themselves very well on the "Askold". Again, I repeat, machines and boilers are not the only factor. The length and width of the hull and the draft. And the construction overload - where would we be without it?
              1. 0
                30 November 2024 22: 46
                Quote: TermNachTER
                What prevented you from buying German cars? We used to buy them and nothing happened?

                For which of our ships did they buy machines in Germany BEFORE the laying of the keel of the Peresvets?
                But in general there was a role model. "Kaiserin Augusta" six-thousander, 12000 hp design capacity, three machines. Weak armament (later, however, they strengthened it) Almost everything is like goddesses wink but 21 knots!
                Quote: TermNachTER
                And also the boilers. Instead of Belleville, the same German Schultz - Thornycroft.

                Who knew these were normal boilers? The Nikloses tried them...
                Quote: TermNachTER
                They showed themselves very well at Askold

                As much as 20 knots on the breakthrough in ZhM without some artillery...
                Quote: TermNachTER
                Again, I repeat, machines and boilers are not the only factor. The length and width of the hull and the draft. And construction overload - where would we be without it?

                The fastest battleship of the PTE was precisely "Peresvet". With so-so boilers, engines and a solid overload...
                1. 0
                  30 November 2024 23: 16
                  Well, okay, they didn't buy from the Germans, they bought from the English. The problem wasn't that there was nowhere to buy, but that they didn't think.
                  Finding out about the reliability and other performance characteristics of the boilers was not a problem. Statistics on all the most popular types of all manufacturers were freely available. If only there was a desire. They bought into Kramp's tales about Nikloss boilers, right? Both "Askold" and "Bogatyr" were made with their boilers and machines. Nothing got in the way?
                  Regarding the breakthrough in ZhM, I want to note that "Askold" had been fighting for a year without normal maintenance, without dry docking. And with its 20 knots, not a single Japanese caught up, although there were those that were supposedly 22 knots.
                  It was the fastest on the measured mile, with factory stokers and excellent coal. In reality, it, like the others, went 15,5 - 16 knots. Like the record-breaking "Varyag"))) when I read that Rudnev did not want to abandon the "Koreyets" in Chemulpo, I laugh like Przewalski's horse))) where would it go at 16 knots? Only the losses would be greater, because in the open sea it would be sunk without looking back, so as not to hit the neutrals.
                  1. 0
                    30 November 2024 23: 27
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Well, okay, we didn’t buy it from the Germans, but from the British.

                    And there are not always good relations with them.
                    That's why we tried to avoid unnecessary contact.
                    By the way, it's the same with the Germans. After the Berlin Congress, we have never been friends. And the story with "Pilau"\"Elbing" confirms this.
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Statistics on all the most popular types of all manufacturers were freely available.

                    They just appeared.
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    You fell for Kramp's tales about Nikloss' boilers, didn't you?

                    You won't know until you try request
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Both "Askold" and "Bogatyr" were made with their boilers and machines. Nothing interfered?

                    Because normal companies didn't respond, I had to shout.
                    With "Askold" and "Bogatyr" it was a piece of cake. With "Varyag" not so much. request
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    And with its 20 knots, not a single Japanese caught up,

                    Because no one was chasing...
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Rudnev didn't want to leave "Koreyets" in Chemulpo, I'm laughing like a Przewalski's horse)))

                    Have a laugh at "Bogatyr", which in Yegoryevsk in real use accelerated only to 19, like... "goddesses" winked
                    1. 0
                      30 November 2024 23: 40
                      For the destroyer "Novik" they ordered the propulsion plant from the Germans - nothing prevented it. The cruisers were ordered right before WWI. Situations when ships ordered for others were confiscated for themselves - all the time.
                      Norman, Yarrow, etc. boilers had been in use for quite a long time, and there were some statistics on them. So, there was plenty to choose from. The English would have sold them. When the Royal Navy did not want to buy a six-foot rangefinder, Barr and Strud offered it to the Russians, but ours also refused.
                      Are the companies that built "Askold" and "Bogatyr" abnormal? They built for both the Germans and the Japanese. What could be better?
                      I don't know whether he was chasing or not, the fact is that they didn't catch up.
                      I don’t know about “Bogatyr”, but “Oleg” and the Black Sea ones built according to his designs ran quite well at 22,5 knots.
                      1. 0
                        1 December 2024 09: 31
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Situations where ships ordered for others were confiscated for themselves are common.

                        That's right. So sometimes it's better to be on the safe side.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Norman, Yarrow, etc. boilers have been in use for quite some time now.

                        No problem. Name me some large ships where they were used for a long enough period of time to accumulate statistics.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Are the companies that built "Askold" and "Bogatyr" abnormal?

                        "Askold" was built by "Germania". A practically bankrupt small shipyard without any significant experience in large-scale construction. Of the warships, it built only destroyers and "Kaiserin Augusta", which the Germans themselves did not replicate, despite its supposedly high performance characteristics. Why?
                        In 1896, Krupp bought her and began a reconstruction that was completed only in 1902. In fact, the ship was built by an experimental production facility that was in a permanent crisis due to modernization. It is a miracle that anything was built at all.
                        The situation is better for Vulcan, which built Bogatyr. But there are also problems. A major modernization was carried out in 1907.
                        Something like that.
                      2. 0
                        1 December 2024 12: 03
                        The British had been using Yarrow thin-tube boilers since about 1890. What prevented them from buying a license to use them from Yarrow? He was a private owner - he was interested in profit, not Whitehall's problems. Many British ships had Yarrow boilers, the reliability of the power plant was more than acceptable. There were also Thornycroft boilers, of quite decent quality. Which the Germans later converted into their Schulz-Thornycroft. There was plenty to choose from, if they wanted.
                        In terms of technical equipment and personnel qualifications, even the less advanced German shipyards were much better than the Russian ones. Read Melnikov about the state of the Sevastopol or Nikolaev Admiralty.
                      3. 0
                        1 December 2024 12: 29
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The British used Yarrow thin-tube boilers from about 1890.

                        Yeah. On destroyers. Where mass is most critical and the runs are short.
                        But they started installing them on large ships about ten years later. I think it was on one of the battleships of the "Lord Nelson" type. But even then, the second one had "Babcock-Wilkes". They tried, tried to understand what would happen. Because the first "Yarrow" boilers (and not only them) were unreliable!
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There were also Thornycroft boilers

                        Same song. Nobody knew how reliable they would prove to be in real use. And they weren't perfected right away.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Read from Melnikov

                        Was reading.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Sevastopol or Nikolaev Admiralty.

                        What do they have to do with it? Are you planning to build ships for Arthur at the Black Sea Fleet?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In terms of technical equipment and personnel qualifications, even the less advanced German shipyards were much better than the Russian ones.

                        1) It happened later.
                        2) And if you take an unbiased look at the ships they built BEFORE 1898, you must agree that the quality of construction and the level of design among the Germans were not the highest.
                      4. 0
                        1 December 2024 13: 06
                        What difference does it make where the boilers are installed? The dimensions, weight and steam capacity are important. They worked on destroyers, so they will work anywhere. Nobody knew whether Yarrow or Thornycroft would be reliable, but were they sure that Belleville or Nikloss were much more reliable? I don't see the logic.
                        In the south, the same cruisers as the Bogatyr were built, and the level of technical capabilities of these shipyards was approximately equal to St. Petersburg.
                        Later (1907-09) it happened that the Vulcan shipyard was simply moved to another place. Because at the old one, there was no longer room to extend the slipways.
                      5. 0
                        1 December 2024 13: 42
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What difference does it make where the boilers are installed?

                        Actually there is.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What matters is the dimensions, weight and steam capacity.

                        Reliability has been forgotten.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Nobody knew if Yarrow or Thornycroft would be reliable, but they were sure that Belleville or Nikloss would be much more reliable? I don't see the logic.

                        The Belvilis appeared earlier and were tested earlier.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I do not see the logic.

                        This happens to you)))
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In the south, the same cruisers as the Bogatyr were built and the level of technical capabilities of these shipyards was approximately equal to St. Petersburg.

                        1) St. Petersburg could be very different. Let's say the Baltic Shipyard and the New Admiralty or Nevsky...
                        2) "Oleg" was laid down on June 6, 1902, and commissioned on October 12, 1904.
                        "Kahul" was laid down in the summer of 1901 and commissioned in 1905.
                        We won’t talk about “Ochakov”; the uprising there has slowed down.
                        Well, the level is kind of visible. In the Baltics, many things are different.
                      6. 0
                        1 December 2024 14: 00
                        Explain the difference, for the boiler, where is it located? On a destroyer, a cruiser or on the shore? By the way, Yarrow boilers were installed on the "Boyevoy" in 1898, you could see their reliability.
                        As for Petersburg and the south - it's not that Petersburg was better, but that even not the most modern shipyards managed the construction. German shipyards would have managed it without problems.
                        Construction delays in the south occurred for a variety of reasons, not just due to technical backwardness.
                      7. 0
                        1 December 2024 14: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Explain the difference, for the boiler, where is it located? On a destroyer, a cruiser or on the shore?

                        That is, the difference in operation is not clear to you?

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        By the way, the "Boyevoy" had Yarrow boilers in 1898, so you could see their reliability.

                        Is this the one that used to be "Som"?
                        And it doesn't matter that it was accepted into the treasury in the summer of 1900 and only from that moment on the exploitation began, during which it was possible to be convinced of something. And it wasn't a week or two. It would have to take at least several years...
                      8. 0
                        1 December 2024 15: 22
                        1. How does a torpedo boat boiler work and how does it differ from a cruiser? How does this difference affect operation?
                        2. And the officers who accepted the ship in England, during the construction and sea trials, including the mechanics, are they blind and deaf? Or do they not know English? Just talking to the shipbuilders, to the workers - is it not their destiny? Or do they have no brains? For example, before buying something for myself,
                        I find a smart person who explains to me what is better, what is worse, where I can get the same thing, but cheaper. And only after consulting, sometimes with more than one, I buy. Do I need to have three higher educations for this?)))
                      9. 0
                        1 December 2024 18: 52
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And the officers who accepted the ship in England, during the construction and sea trials, including the mechanics, are they blind and deaf? Or do they not know English? Just talking to the shipbuilders, to the workers - is it not destiny? Or do they have no brains? For example, before buying something for myself,
                        I find a smart person who explains to me what is better, what is worse, where I can get the same thing, but cheaper.

                        You know what's funny?
                        You have now described quite accurately how you made the decision to purchase Niklos boilers.
                        Abaza did exactly that. He found a smart man (the commander of the "Friant"), who sang to him...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        How does a torpedo boat boiler work and how does it differ from a cruiser? How does this difference affect operation?

                        I already explained it to you, but apparently it was a waste of time.
                        I'm sorry, but I - stop pass.
                      10. 0
                        1 December 2024 19: 03
                        And who said that the commander of the "Friant" is a smart person? When I said that I was looking for a smart person, it didn't mean that I grabbed the first person I came across off the street.
                        Sorry, but I didn't understand anything from your explanations. Personally, I don't see any difference for the boiler, where it is installed. And later, the fleets switched to standard boilers.
                        There are two boilers on a destroyer, 4 on a cruiser, 8 on a battleship - simple and convenient. And no one needs to be retrained. A boiler engineer comes to a ship and sees the same boiler as on the previous one and the next one will have the same.
                      11. 0
                        1 December 2024 12: 55
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The British used Yarrow thin-tube boilers from about 1890.

                        On destroyers
                      12. 0
                        1 December 2024 13: 09
                        What is the fundamental difference between where the boiler is located on a destroyer or a cruiser? Saving weight and volume of the propulsion plant for a cruiser does not matter? From my point of view, the more compact and lighter the propulsion plant, the more volume in the hull can be allocated for armament or weight for armor, or for fuel reserves, or many other useful things. "Askold" even managed to be made a little lighter than was assumed in the project.
                      13. +1
                        1 December 2024 13: 51
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What is the fundamental difference between where the boiler is located on a destroyer or on a cruiser?

                        Well, try installing an engine from a passenger car on a quarry dump truck.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        From my point of view, the more compact and lighter the power plant, the more volume in the body can be allocated for weapons.

                        A cruiser is designed for long ocean voyages, a destroyer has "slightly" different operational requirements. That is why the British themselves even in the late 1890s installed Belleville on their cruisers. Their large armored deck ships, the same Diadem, did not go 20,25-20,75 knots (they were the same age as Diane, by the way)
                      14. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 41

                        Well, try installing an engine from a passenger car on a quarry dump truck.

                        Better on a tank. Do you need a list of tanks, including medium ones?
                      15. 0
                        Yesterday, 18: 26
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Better on a tank.

                        Or even better - for a passenger car. Can you give me a list?
                        But we were talking about a quarry dump truck.
                      16. +1
                        1 December 2024 13: 54
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What is the fundamental difference between where the boiler is located on a destroyer or on a cruiser?

                        Destroyers at that time were small ships not intended for long voyages. Roughly speaking, it sits in the base, goes on the attack once, and if it returns, it can go to the workshops.
                        A cruiser has to go on raids, where there is no one to repair it. Therefore, reliability is more important for a cruiser.
                        It's like rally cars and formula one.
                      17. 0
                        1 December 2024 14: 03
                        Well, the cruiser has more than one boiler, and not even ten. Some repairs at sea, on the move, were initially planned.
                      18. 0
                        1 December 2024 14: 08
                        Well, the Novik with its Schulz-Thornycroft has been completely overhauled...
                      19. 0
                        1 December 2024 15: 25
                        What's wrong with Novik? It served practically the entire war and not badly at all, considering that it had no normal maintenance or repairs or docking during the entire war. Well, and the fact that it met Tsushima near Sakhalin, alas, it was unlucky. And its technical condition was already not so hot.
                      20. 0
                        1 December 2024 18: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What's wrong with Novik?

                        That it is an overgrown destroyer. That is, a visible embodiment of what you propose. To build a cruiser with destroyer engines.
                        the result is so-so.
                      21. 0
                        1 December 2024 18: 58
                        Cruisers of the II rank were built in many fleets. In the British for example and for some reason no one said that they were bad. For each job its own tool. Whether the "Novik" is good or bad can be argued for a long time. But on its basis both "Boyarin" and "jewelry series" were made.
                      22. 0
                        1 December 2024 19: 00
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        But on its basis they also made the "Boyarin"

                        My God, what are you talking about?!!
                      23. 0
                        1 December 2024 19: 05
                        Go to your beloved Wikipedia and read it. It's written in big letters.
                      24. +1
                        1 December 2024 19: 12
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Go to your beloved Wikipedia

                        Don't try to insult me. You won't succeed. You don't have enough knowledge.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        It's written there in big letters.

                        There's nothing like that there not it is written.
                        Despite the fact that the technical specifications for these cruisers were identical, the projects were completely different. And these ships were as different as two ships formally belonging to the same class can be.
                        And of course the statement
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        But on its basis they also made the "Boyarin"

                        does not correspond to reality
                      25. 0
                        1 December 2024 20: 52
                        Ships of the same class, built at the same time, according to the same technical specifications, literally next door)) well, of course, absolutely different. In the almanac "Gangut" there is an article about "Boyarin", it says this directly.
                      26. +1
                        2 December 2024 17: 21
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, of course, they are completely different.

                        Imagine.
                        One is a flush-deck ship, the other has a forecastle, one has a three-shaft propulsion system, the other has two. The "German" has 12 Schultz boilers, the Dane has 16 Bellevilles.
                        That is, structurally the ships are completely different.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In the almanac "Gangut" there is an article on "Boyarin", it says this directly.

                        Yep. Authored by Skvortsov. And here's what he wrote:
                        One of four rank II cruisers of the Russian fleet, created within the framework of the shipbuilding program of 1898. Built in 1902 according to an individual project on the stocks of the Danish shipyard "Burmeister og Vein", the cruiser differed from the other ships of the series - "Novik", "Zhemchug" and "Izumrud" - by its lower speed, but better seaworthiness.

                        how did you manage to read this like that But on its basis they also made the "Boyarin" a mystery to me
                      27. 0
                        2 December 2024 20: 49
                        Both are rank II cruisers by classification and tasks. The fact that the Danes slightly altered the project is a local specificity - it is more convenient for them. The forecastle appeared because the very sharp ends of the Novik led to flooding, an improvement of the original project taking into account the operating experience. The fact that they installed Belleville boilers was insisted on by the Russians, the Danes basically did not care. So, the Boyarin is a further development of the Novik, admittedly not the most successful.
                      28. 0
                        2 December 2024 21: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The fact that the Danes slightly altered the project

                        In order to rework the project, it must first be received. At least in the form of drawings. And we did not even receive them in full when the cruiser was ready. The option that the Germans handed the project over to the Danes ten months after the laying of the foundation is simply impossible.
                        "Boyarin" is a completely different project from the start. The only thing it has in common with "Novik" is its formal affiliation with the same class.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, "Boyarin" is a further development of "Novik"

                        Only in your fantasies.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The sharp ends of the Novik led to flooding, improvement of the original design taking into account operating experience

                        Don't talk nonsense, it hurts her. What kind of "operating experience" is there if at the time the Danish ship was laid down the German one was still on the slipway?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I must admit it was not the most successful.

                        At the very least, a controversial statement. However, it is impossible to confirm or dispute it because the "Boyarin" was lost at the very beginning of the war. But in any case, the Danish project is much more like a cruiser than the German "car cover"
                      29. 0
                        2 December 2024 22: 45
                        There were very loose technical requirements, which each of the builders interpreted as they saw it and were comfortable with. And you think that Danish shipbuilders have no brains at all. They have never built or seen ships with sharp ends and did not understand what this leads to? Why did the Germans go for it? It must be understood that they wanted a ship with record-breaking performance characteristics, as an advertisement for their capabilities. Do you think that some engineer from Burmeister og Van could not go to Germany and see what is standing there on the slipway? It's elementary, you can spit there.
                        We can guess whether the "Boyarin" was good or bad, but its speed, as a reconnaissance cruiser in a squadron, is definitely insufficient. And the Danes understood this perfectly well when they built it.
                      30. 0
                        Yesterday, 13: 36
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        We can guess whether the Boyarin was good or bad, but its speed, as a reconnaissance cruiser in a squadron, was definitely insufficient.

                        Strange. So 22,5 knots is not enough for Boyarin to be a scout, but for Kasagi it is just right?:)))
                      31. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 29
                        You can appoint anyone as a scout. What's so difficult about it - take a piece of paper, write it down, register it in the office))) But what about speed? If the EBR has a speed of 18 knots, then for a scout 22 knots is somehow not enough.
                      32. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 43
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Anyone can be appointed as a scout.

                        Actually, the dogs did a great job.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        If the EBR has a speed of 18 knots, then for a reconnaissance aircraft 22 knots is somehow not enough.

                        21 is quite enough. Where more?
                      33. 0
                        Yesterday, 19: 51
                        1. Be more specific about your thoughts - what were they coping with?
                        2. In fact, it was generally accepted that the speed of a scout should be 5 knots higher. 22 knots - that's what they gave on a measured mile, during tests. The real speed was lower.
                      34. 0
                        Yesterday, 20: 25
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Be more specific about your thoughts - what were they coping with?

                        With reconnaissance for the squadron. Where else more specifically? They were constantly hanging around ours, finding out where we were and reporting "upstairs".
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        2. In fact, it was generally accepted that the speed of a scout should be 5 knots higher. 22 knots - that's what they gave on a measured mile, during tests. The real speed was lower.

                        Generally accepted by whom?
                        Battleships with 18 knots speed will go at a squadron speed of about 15 knots. A cruiser with 21-22 knots will give 20 or so. That's all the arithmetic.
                        A single ship will always give more than a line of ships with the same speed. A cruiser is single, battleships are not.
                        Not to mention that the scout didn't need any 5 knots of difference. Why would he need them?
                      35. 0
                        Yesterday, 13: 34
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Both are class II cruisers.

                        In 1917 we had the battleship Zarya Svobody (formerly Alexander, a battleship-ram) and the battleship Sevastopol, also ships of the same class.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, "Boyarin" is a further development of "Novik", admittedly not the most successful.

                        Perhaps more successful than "Novik" itself.
                      36. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 31
                        Such jokes with classification were not only in RIF.
                        "Novik" showed itself in the RYaV, but "Boyarin" did not. On what basis are such far-reaching conclusions?
                      37. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 56
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Such jokes with classification were not only in RIF.

                        So there is no need to refer to them.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Novik" showed itself in the RYaV, but "Boyarin" did not.

                        And "Bogatyr" did not show, but is considered a good armored deck. And so, in general, the only case when a Russian cruiser played the role of a reconnaissance ship in a squadron - and that was Boyarin.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What is the basis for such far-reaching conclusions?

                        On the obvious. "Boyarin" is a small cruiser. And "Novik" is a large destroyer. That's why "Novik" has problems with seaworthiness, and "Boyarin" does not. "Novik" has problems with the strength of the hull (the deck sagged when walking), and "Boyarin" does not. Only the lazy did not remember Novik's linoleum. But the most important thing is that Boyarin was a stable artillery platform, and "Novik" was not, which its commander wrote separately. For a reconnaissance aircraft, not only speed but also range is important, and Boyarin was very good - even after switching to PA and maneuvers, coal consumption was very low. Generally speaking, Novik was not a coal eater either, but it had worse things to do.
                        In general, the Novik is an ordinary record-breaking ship, it really dominated the destroyers (but could not catch up with them) and was inferior in combat power to any Japanese cruiser. Not because there were few guns, or the caliber was not the same, but because the pitching parameters made aiming much more difficult than on an ordinary cruiser. Boyarin could stand up for itself.
                      38. 0
                        Yesterday, 19: 57
                        1. When did "Boyarin" prove itself as a reconnaissance vessel for the squadron?
                        2. Depending on the swell, it could be so rough that even larger ships were not good artillery platforms. Who could the Boyarin fight off with its 120 mm? Almost all of the Japanese armored decks had 152 mm or a combination of 152 + 120 mm. The Novik could at least run away.
                      39. 0
                        Yesterday, 20: 30
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. When did "Boyarin" prove itself as a reconnaissance vessel for the squadron?

                        You seem to have studied RYaV at some point? Well, remember. The very beginning, one might say:)))))
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Depending on the swell, it could be so rough that even larger ships were not good artillery platforms.

                        No need to tell me about typhoons. Novik was never a stable artillery platform, neither on small waves nor on large ones.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Who could "Boyarin" fight off with its 120 mm?

                        See the result of the only hit on the Japanese cruiser in the battle with Novik.
                      40. 0
                        Yesterday, 22: 58
                        1. The very beginning - is it when he stepped on a mine?
                        2. Perhaps his tasks were somewhat different than artillery duels with the EBR?
                        3. So you are claiming that if the Boyarin had been in the place of the Novik, the outcome of the battle would have been the opposite?
                      41. 0
                        Today, 08: 24
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. The very beginning - is it when he stepped on a mine?

                        That is, you do not even know the history of the Russian Navy at the level of major naval battles. January 27, 1904
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Perhaps his tasks were somewhat different than artillery duels with the EBR?

                        Of course. Why would a cruiser shoot somewhere, hit someone? It has other tasks, and the guns are just for show and parades.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So you are saying that if the Boyarin had been in the place of the Novik, the outcome of the battle would have been the opposite?

                        I claim that the cruiser Tsushima, having received one 120 mm shell, received a strong list and was forced to leave the battle to repair the damage. Which hints at the fact that the 120 mm artillery was not at all powerless and that the same Boyarin, with sufficiently trained gunners, could well have fought off a small armored deck cruiser of the Japanese
                      42. 0
                        Today, 11: 06
                        Ah, you mean the heroic shelling of "Strong")))? I agree with you, it's good that the gunners didn't hit the Red Army, it wouldn't have been good if they had.
                        "Tsushima" scored 14 direct hits, including three underwater holes. I seriously doubt that "Boyarin" would have been better in such a situation.
                      43. 0
                        Yesterday, 12: 58
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, of course, they are completely different

                        Absolutely right. COMPLETELY different ships.
                      44. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 32
                        As different as "Bogatyr" and "Yakumo".
                      45. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 57
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        As different as "Bogatyr" and "Yakumo".

                        You have already been explained why this is not so.
                      46. 0
                        Yesterday, 20: 12
                        The explanations, to put it mildly, are so-so. I was overcome with curiosity, and decided to return to my youth, when I was interested in the RYAV. Unfortunately, I did not find any good drawings with the division of the hull into sections and the assembly of the hull either in my books or on the Internet. Therefore, I will assume.
                        So, "Yakumo" is 3 m wider - this means that it has, at least,
                        one additional bottom stringer and carlings (on all decks or platforms), on each side. The length of the beams, respectively, is also. That is, longitudinal and transverse strength are calculated differently. The 203 mm. turrets are larger and heavier, the recoil of 203 mm. guns is stronger. Accordingly, the strength of the structures at the ends is calculated differently. The same is about the conning tower. Next, two armored traverses are tens of tons of armor, accordingly, the strength of the beams, carlings, stanchions is calculated differently. Next, the main armor belt and the upper one, respectively, the frames, beams, carlings are calculated differently. Next, 24 Belleville boilers, they are larger and heavier, accordingly there are more foundations and they are larger and heavier.
                        Again, steam lines and pipelines to them, from them, from condensers. That is, the entire power plant must be redesigned. So what is easier? Recalculate all the longitudinal and transverse strength of the hull or calculate from scratch?
                      47. 0
                        Yesterday, 20: 20
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I was overcome with curiosity and decided to return to my youth, when I was interested in RYAV

                        Well, if it's not interesting now, why are you confusing our heads?:)))))
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, "Yakumo" is 3 m wider - this means that it has, at least,
                        one additional bottom stringer and carlings

                        At the very least, you should brush up on the basics of shipbuilding. Where does a ship begin? With a theoretical drawing. Then look at Yakumo and Bogatyr and stop making me look pregnant already:)))))))))
                        Your carlings and the strength of the structures in the ends are scalable. The two-shaft power plant on Yakumo and Bogatyr is scalable, and it doesn't matter what kind of boilers will be installed there. But three shafts on Novik, or two shafts on Boyarin, are a fundamental difference both in terms of placement in the hull and in theory.
                        In general... If you don't want to listen to us, learn the basics yourself.
                      48. 0
                        Yesterday, 20: 22
                        Got it))) I won't go on. It's very simple for you, apparently you haven't worked with hardware much)))
                      49. 0
                        Yesterday, 20: 27
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In general, it's very simple for you, apparently you haven't worked with hardware much)))

                        I'm too lazy to even comment. This is said by a person for whom a two- or three-shaft installation is nonsense, but a heavier tower is a Distinction with a capital D
                  2. +1
                    1 December 2024 06: 56
                    We thought, but it seems like our thoughts were limited to how to get a kickback
    5. 0
      30 November 2024 14: 44
      Quote: Jura 27
      Against the British anti-raiders, 10"s are more than enough.

      In this case I agree. The project was an analogue of the English battleships of the 2nd class and was composed under their influence. In general, ships of the Peresvet type were built for
      The ship's main purpose was to serve in distant seas, and the correspondingly lightened 10" caliber artillery was considered correct. The design of the spar deck (or extended forecastle) was also approved, which, unlike the flush-deck English prototype, allowed the bow turret to operate successfully in bad weather.

      despite the fact that even in the papers of those years they were called
      On July 29, 1895, the MTC reported to the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supply (GUKiS) that on July 24, "based on the report of the above-mentioned drawings to His Imperial Majesty the Sovereign Emperor, the Highest permission was given to build two armored cruisers, each 12674 tons." The vagueness of the terminology is characteristic: the MTC apparently considered these ships to be cruisers, and only for the sake of prestige were they officially classified as armored cruisers.
      1. -1
        30 November 2024 15: 48
        The project was analogous to the English 2nd class battleships

        The Peresvets were not analogous, either in terms of missions or architecture - they were cruisers with 10-inch main guns, for the destruction of English anti-raiders.
  2. +4
    30 November 2024 05: 46
    Thank you very much Andrey!
    I especially like the long-running “sea” story in the Author’s cycles - I read it with sincere pleasure, including the comments of Comrades!!!
    Sincerely yours, Vlad!
    1. +1
      30 November 2024 11: 55
      Good afternoon, Vladislav! hi We are trying:))))
  3. +3
    30 November 2024 09: 28
    This leads to a very obvious conclusion: the 10-inch guns of the 1892 model were a bad solution for a squadron battleship, but an excellent option for an armored cruiser. Not as heavy as the 12-inch/40 guns of the 1895 model, they, taking into account the smaller weight of the turret mounts and ammunition, freed up hundreds of tons of displacement, which could be spent on increasing speed, but at the same time they perfectly solved the problem of confronting armored cruisers and were not at all useless in combat with enemy battleships.

    Tongue removed Yes
    Greetings, dear namesake hi
    This solution suggested itself - to increase the speed of the "Peresvets" at least to 20 knots and we would have a kind of Russian analogue of a battle cruiser. "Pobeda" with "Peresvet" could act separately, influencing the armored cruisers of Togo. Well, this is on paper. But as we know from experience, any commander is tempted to put them in a line ... As a result, if "Peresvet" withstood the battle at Shantung, then "Oslyabya" presented itself at Tsushima request
    Plus is already worth it hi
    1. +2
      30 November 2024 11: 56
      Good day! drinks
      Quote: Rurikovich
      "Pobeda" and "Peresvet" could act separately, influencing Togo's armored cruisers.

      You don't even have to say it. Oh, dreams, dreams...
    2. +1
      30 November 2024 13: 10
      Quote: Rurikovich
      As a result, if Peresvet survived the battle at Shantung, then Oslyabya presented itself at Tsushima.

      passed away (I will die)
      Oslyabya and Aurora should have been in Vladivostok, not running to the Mediterranean and back. He couldn't give 20 knots no matter how hard he wanted to
      1. +2
        30 November 2024 14: 04
        Quote: clou
        He couldn't give 20 knots no matter how hard he wanted to

        This is a possible project, not an actual one.
      2. +2
        30 November 2024 14: 28
        Quote: clou
        passed away (I will die)

        This is a typo. feel After the walk you yourself understand what state you are in request
  4. +4
    30 November 2024 09: 41
    Thanks for another great article, Andrey!
    Over the years, I have come to understand that the concept that is embedded in a particular type of weapon inextricably links all other qualities of the carrier of this weapon.
    The same thing happened with the 10" caliber. It really came out "out of place" in the era of battleships and armored cruisers. A battleship, even a fast one (in reality, two or three knots to the standard speed of a squadron battleship), becomes inferior in a battle line and quite useless as a mobile wing of a squadron. For the first, it lacks the power of the main battery, for the second - the speed. The only niche for the 10" caliber is the role of the main caliber of a coastal defense battleship, which was confirmed in practice right up to the diesel "Väinämöinen".
    1. +2
      30 November 2024 11: 57
      Thank you, dear Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The same thing happened with the 10" caliber. It really came out "out of place" in the era of battleships and armored cruisers.

      I still think that it is quite appropriate for the BRKR, but I agree with you, the question is interesting and debatable
      1. +1
        30 November 2024 12: 34
        Good day, Andrey!
        In essence, the first full-fledged armored cruiser was built by the Japanese, in which they demonstrated remarkable analytical skills.
        In February 1904, the Japanese parliament authorized the allocation of 48 million yen for an additional shipbuilding program. It was supposed to build two battleships and four armored cruisers. The initial design for an armored cruiser assumed the combination of the Cressy hull, the Devonshire power plant with the armor and armament of the Izumo, the displacement should be greater than that of its ancestors, and the cruiser, to improve seaworthiness, should have a developed forecastle, and was intended, like the County, primarily for operations on communications. In all characteristics, the new cruiser was to surpass the Cressy, which had the same displacement. The results of the battle in the Yellow Sea influenced the replacement of the main caliber with 12" guns, which proved their high effectiveness at long distances.

        So the 10" caliber was out of the game, just like Peresvet against Izumo or Oslyabya against Asahi, and Rurik II against Ibuki. The small chance that history gave Rurik II to compete with Tsukuba more or less on equal terms was cancelled a year later.
        There are many such paradoxes in the history of the fleet: if the high-speed 283-mm German shell still had some chance against the British battlecruisers, then the 254-mm did not. The 381-mm shell of the Queen Elizabeth was effective at the main combat distances in World War II, but the 356-mm of the newest King George V was not.
        1. +4
          30 November 2024 12: 42
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          So the 10" caliber was out of the game like the Peresvet against the Izumo

          Well, why not? Peresvet vs Izumo looks really good. But Izumo vs Peresvet, not so much:)
          1. 0
            30 November 2024 12: 52
            Well, why not? Peresvet vs Izumo looks really good. But Izumo vs Peresvet, not so much:)

            Only the maneuverability of the Peresvet against the Iwate-Yakumo pair (that's right - the Japanese will always put a pair of their armored cruisers against our "fast battleship") looks depressing, and the long-range and destructive power of high-explosive shells leave it no chance in a long battle.
            All this was confirmed in the battle of the coastal defense battleship "Admiral Ushakov" against the above-mentioned pair on 15 (28) May 05.1905. And the ratio of the main calibers corresponds.
            1. +2
              30 November 2024 13: 05
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Only the maneuverability of the Peresvet against the Iwate-Yakumo pair (that's right - the Japanese will always put a pair of their armored cruisers against our "fast battleship")

              Only we had 2 of them in Arthur - and no one stopped them from acting in pairs too
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              and the long range and destructive power of high explosive shells leave him no chance in a long battle.

              Well, why not? Gromoboi fought with Russia for 5 hours in the conditions you described, but they were much worse protected than Peresvetov.
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              All this was confirmed in the battle of the coastal defense battleship Admiral Ushakov against the above-mentioned pair.

              No. Ushakov was hit and had a broken bow turret at the very beginning of the battle, he did not have the opportunity to properly aim the 120-mm, in general, it is unlikely that this can be attributed to overexposure
              1. 0
                30 November 2024 15: 01
                Only in Arthur we had 2 of them.
                Well, really not two but three (or two and a half) taking into account the "Bayan". And they had (which sadly remains) as many as six. They control the distance. The rate of fire is in their favor. So, count this kind of battle with high-explosive shells.
                I myself do not value Kamimura's six very highly. But they were useful to the Mikado fleet, unlike.
                1. 0
                  30 November 2024 15: 04
                  No, there are still "unlucky" calibers for the fleet. For ours, these are 10" and 14". Moreover, they were quite in demand as coastal and railway artillery.
                2. +1
                  30 November 2024 15: 17
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Only in Arthur we had 2 of them.

                  There were 4 Japanese cruise missiles near Arthur, although it would have been difficult to constantly fly them in fours.
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  They control the distance.

                  Yes. But controlling the distance here will come down to a fight on the retreat. And one failure, like what happened to the Asama in Tsushima, will most likely be fatal.
                3. +2
                  30 November 2024 15: 32
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  So they had (which, sadly, remains) as many as six.

                  Victor, don't forget that four ("Izumo", "Tokiwa", "Azuma" and "Iwate") guarded the VOK. At first, Togo had only two cruiser brigade under the P-A - "Asama" and "Yakumo". Then "Kasuga" and "Nissin" joined. So Kamimura's four had an impact only at Tsushima. And then, purely hypothetically, if we fantasize, then Rozhdestvensky proceeded from the results of the battle of the 2st TOE at Shantung and most likely assumed (this is purely my opinion) that in a fight in wake columns he had a chance. Four "Borodino" against four Japanese EBRs, and eight BrKr against eight Solyanka from the Russians ("Oslyabya", "Sisoy", "Navarin", Nakhimov, "Nikolay I", "Nakhimov" and three BrBr) is quite normal. 1 to 12. Given that, although outdated, the 12 "and 12" guns of the 10nd and 2rd detachments will cope well with the armor of the BrKr of the Japanese. But this is ideal. And I personally see this version of Rozhdestvensky's thoughts. But it is precisely the superiority of the squadron speed predetermined the choice of That. And we get what we have request
                  Togo simply chose his position relative to the Russian column based on speed. That's it, curtain...
                4. 0
                  1 December 2024 16: 06
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Only in Arthur we had 2 of them.

                  only due to the stupidity of the authorities - Oslyabya in 1904 could easily enter PA with Aurora request
                5. +1
                  2 December 2024 23: 47
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  I myself do not value Kamimura's six very highly. But they were useful to the Mikado fleet, unlike.

                  I looked at the effectiveness of Japanese BrKr after partially reading Japanese combat reports. The effectiveness was low. In ZhM they were cultivating "Poltava" without result. At Ulsan they achieved modest results. At Tsushima they did not achieve any decisive results, the main striking force was the battleships.
            2. 0
              30 November 2024 22: 36
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Only the maneuverability of Peresvet against the pair of Iwate and Yakumo

              The trick is that the Russian 254mm 152mm Harvey will penetrate from about 30 cables at almost any reasonable angle. And the Japanese/English 203mm 229 GBP "Peresvet" will not penetrate under any circumstances. request
              1. 0
                1 December 2024 01: 39
                There are enough penetrations outside the citadel, as well as fires. The Second Pacific Squadron perished not from penetrations, but precisely because of the mass destruction of high-explosive shells 6" - 8", losing combat capability and stability, but not buoyancy.
                1. 0
                  1 December 2024 08: 54
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  namely, due to the massive destruction of high-explosive shells 6" - 8",

                  In other words, if Peresvet had normal shells, it would have covered the Asamoids like a bull covers a sheep. Did I understand you correctly?
                  1. +2
                    1 December 2024 09: 11
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    namely, due to the massive destruction of high-explosive shells 6" - 8",

                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    In other words, if Peresvet had normal shells, it would have covered the Asamoids like a bull covers a sheep.

                    Good afternoon, dear Ivan.
                    In this matter, the statement of one English admiral is more appropriate:
                    " It doesn't matter how fast your guns fire in battle, what matters is how many hits the enemy ship gets. ".
                    Therefore, it is not a fact that "Peresvet"I would cover the "Asamoids" like a bull covers a sheep".
                    1. +1
                      1 December 2024 09: 35
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      good afternoon

                      My regards hi
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      "It doesn't matter how fast your guns fire in battle, what matters is how many hits the enemy ship gets."

                      Here, of course, I agree. But... we are still discussing the design, and not the level of combat training feel
                      1. +1
                        1 December 2024 10: 26
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But... we are still discussing the design, and not the level of combat training.

                        If we take only the performance characteristics, then in my opinion the advantage is on the side of the Peresvet. The main caliber, armor, in terms of speed characteristics they are approximately equal. W. White calculated the expected speed of the Asama based on the design and engines. He came to the conclusion that the real speed of the Asama would be 17-18 knots. The disadvantage of the Peresvet can be considered the large size of the target. But this is all theory.
                      2. +1
                        1 December 2024 16: 28
                        In my opinion, our three armored cruisers of the Peresvet type are absolutely useless ships for the Russian Navy; it would be better if they built normal battleships.
                      3. 0
                        Yesterday, 12: 57
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        It would be better if they built normal battleships.

                        Of course. But it would be more expensive, of course.
                  2. +1
                    1 December 2024 09: 39
                    Good afternoon, Ivan!
                    Not Peresvet, but Pobeda. Good ballistics are needed.
                    And so - yes, during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905, the 10" caliber was a death sentence for Japanese armored cruisers.
              2. -1
                1 December 2024 07: 07
                What is the point of analyzing and fantasizing about who will hit whom from what distance, if it was more than 100 years ago and the results have long been known. Even if the Russian ships were better, and the war was lost, this only shows that even having, say, better performance characteristics than the enemy, you can lose the war in one wicket, and accordingly, vice versa, having weaker performance characteristics but better organization and wiser leadership, you can win
                1. +2
                  1 December 2024 08: 56
                  Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
                  What is the point

                  Well, why did you come here, read the article, and participate in the discussions?
                  Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
                  The results have long been known.

                  But there is still no reason. request
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 05: 17
                    And the reasons have long been known, and there are many books and memoirs on this topic. But if you say that they are not known, then that is true.
                    1. 0
                      Yesterday, 12: 54
                      Quote: Mikhail Krivopalov
                      And the reasons have long been known

                      No, they are not known. There are known interpretations, although they are often either completely incorrect (wet pyroxylin), or contradict each other (Russian navy shells are either good or bad). Or, for example, the supposedly disgusting shooting quality of the 2TOE. Or... a lot of things.
          2. +1
            1 December 2024 16: 04
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            It's just Peresvet versus Izumo

            so the displacement is almost 1,5 times greater request
            1. 0
              1 December 2024 16: 59
              Quote: DrEng02
              so the displacement is almost 1,5 times greater

              Peresvet's displacement is 13,8 thousand tons, even taking into account the overload, while Izumo's is 9,9, as planned, and there was clearly an overload.
              1. 0
                1 December 2024 18: 03
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                and there was clearly an overload

                The English were less guilty of this.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                almost 1,5 times more

                13,8 / 9,9 = 1,39 hi
                we take Aurora 6,7*1,39=9,3 kt and compare it with Kasuga... 8,2 kt
                and we are surprised...request
                1. 0
                  1 December 2024 18: 45
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  The English were less guilty of this.

                  Well, a few hundred tons didn't matter anyway
  5. +1
    30 November 2024 09: 44
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    This leads to a very obvious conclusion: the 10-inch guns of the 1892 model were a bad solution for a squadron battleship,

    In this matter, one can refer to the opinion of the French that such a ship will not have sufficient firepower to fight enemy battleships. At the same time, it will not be able to catch up with armored cruisers due to insufficient speed. In general, such a "hybrid" is not advantageous for the fleet.
    but an excellent option for an armored cruiser.

    This is already to the British, who believed that for fire support of battleships in battle, the most acceptable guns for cruisers were 234 mm caliber guns. But they mainly focused on the weight of the projectile, so they refused to arm their cruisers with 8-inch caliber guns.
    1. +1
      30 November 2024 12: 01
      Glad to welcome you, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      In this matter, one can refer to the opinion of the French

      Thank you, I didn't know it existed.
      Quote: 27091965i
      This was already for the British, who believed that for fire support of battleships in battle, 234 mm caliber guns were most suitable for cruisers.

      As an option. In general, I see the British 9,2-inch/47 as an extremely successful gun. But, it seems to me, this gun is much closer to our 10-inch than to the 8-inch
      1. +2
        30 November 2024 13: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thank you, I didn't know it existed.

        I wrote about this in some comment. Based on the Peresvet, the French developed their own project, 240 mm main battery guns, due to the reduction in armor thickness, the calculated speed should have been 20 knots. But for the reasons stated above, this project was rejected.
        As an option. In general, I see the British 9,2-inch/47 as an extremely successful gun. But, it seems to me, this gun is much closer to our 10-inch than to the 8-inch

        This is true, the 8-inch gun was "pushed" onto English cruisers by Admiral J. Fisher, I will not describe in detail how this happened, I will post the answer he received;

        " Penetration of Armor.—The statement made in your minutes of the meeting, dated June 24, does not correspond with the calculations. With the present quality of armor, the penetrating power of a projectile should be measured by its energy per inch of circumference. Thus, with equal velocities, the penetration does not depend on the caliber of the guns, but on the ratio of the weight of the projectile to the caliber. The 9,2-inch gun has a projectile weighing 380 pounds, and the 8-inch 210 pounds. Thus the relative coefficient of penetration is not 8 to 9, but about 26 to 40. Of course, it may be added that the 8-inch gun could be equipped with a heavy projectile, as designed for the 9,2-inch gun. However, to fulfill this condition, the 8-inch gun would have to have a projectile weighing not 210 pounds, but about 260 pounds, and if the weight of the projectile were increased to this weight, it is obvious that rapid fire could not be achieved. For this reason, the 9,2-inch gun is preferable for arming cruisers, both in terms of armor penetration, damage inflicted, and rate of fire ratio."
  6. 0
    30 November 2024 09: 50
    However, the main targets for the 10-inch 1892 were not squadron battleships, especially those that entered service in the XNUMXth century, but something “softer”...
    1. 0
      30 November 2024 12: 02
      Quote: Lynnot
      and something "softer"...

      Well, how can I say it? German battleships and British 2nd class battleships were taken into account
      1. +3
        30 November 2024 12: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        German battleships

        Calling German EBRs "soft" with their 225...240 mm belt is somehow completely inappropriate.
        The British with their 6-8" belts are still okay...
      2. +2
        1 December 2024 00: 54
        Good day!
        Thank you for your work!
        As for the targets for 10" x 45
        then in our case greed breeds poverty - no one interfered with the creation of reinforced five-layer 10" x 48 (if they could make 12" x 40 on the same equipment)
        You could even write an alternative using a long-barreled hole punch.
  7. +3
    30 November 2024 20: 43
    Andrey, good article again!
    As for the appearance of the 10-inch caliber, the reason for this was the appearance of English 2nd class battleships with 10-inch guns. Moreover, later the question of whether it was worth returning to 12-inch or staying with the 10-inch caliber was seriously discussed. They decided to return to 12-inch, and forgot about 10-inch until the second Rurik.
    1. 0
      2 December 2024 09: 16
      Good morning, dear Andrey! Thank you for your kind words.
  8. +4
    1 December 2024 11: 28
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    It is clear that our 10-inch guns were a formidable force against the Japanese armored cruisers.

    You guessed right by the weight of pyroxylin in a 10-inch armor-piercing shell. It contained 7,57 lb of wet pyroxylin and 0,19 lb of dry pyroxylin in a tube. The information is in the Manual ... of the battleship "Peresvet"
    1. +2
      1 December 2024 12: 57
      Quote: rytik32
      The information is in the Manual ... of the battleship "Peresvet"

      Right, thanks, I forgot about that.
  9. 0
    1 December 2024 15: 53
    The article is good, but with the conclusion "about an excellent option for an armored cruiser"
    It's hard to agree - of the new BRKRs in RIF, only Bayan - 10 dm won't fit on it, but a pair of 229 in place of 8 dm - quite possible! It's like the English 234 - good penetration, but manual loading... request
    By the way, a 10 dm BRK is nonsense - like the Rurik 2, it seems to be a strong ship, but you can't deploy a LKR once it's penetrated... request
  10. 0
    1 December 2024 22: 57
    I could never understand the navy's pursuit of caliber size. In my opinion, the accuracy of fire is much more important than the weight of the "suitcase". And the armor-piercing ability of a shell is determined not only by its mass, but also by its speed at the moment of impact. Therefore, in my opinion, it was more promising to focus on increasing the length of the barrel and improving the guidance and fire control systems. And not on the diameter of the shell.

    By the way, why do naval ships measure distances in miles and cable lengths, and speed in m/s? Since you're going to show off so systematically, measure the speed of a projectile in cable lengths per minute... Convenient, right? :) :) :)
    1. 0
      2 December 2024 01: 33
      I tried to support your opinion, but the number of arguments did not fit into the Procrustean framework of the message)))
      1. 0
        2 December 2024 02: 35
        Firstly, this is a factor of lightening and reducing the cost of, for example, a 10" x 45 gun relative to a 12" x 40...
        This gives us, according to Lomonosov-Lavoisier, a one and a half-fold increase in the number of main battery and ammo guns, which in turn gives us the following cute features:
        1. 0
          2 December 2024 02: 38
          Instead of an acute deficit, we get abundance and even more than that - some excess of both... Due to which, for example, a person is trained in practice, therefore:
          1. 0
            2 December 2024 02: 40
            Accuracy is increased and the practical rate of fire is accelerated...
            In addition to the practical, there is a sort of technical one, about which Klado has a very funny table
            1. +1
              2 December 2024 02: 46
              In this table, the rate of fire increases with decreasing caliber everywhere except at the 10" and 12" line.
              Somehow it doesn't fit with primitive logic... It seems there are reasons for this and opponents will not miss the opportunity to cite them - let's read)
            2. +1
              2 December 2024 10: 06
              Quote: Dmitry24
              Accuracy is increased and the practical rate of fire is accelerated...

              Why would the increase in the number of barrels in those years increase accuracy?:)))
              1. 0
                Yesterday, 09: 15
                Why does an excess of guns and shells increase accuracy?
                Well, it's like Ohm's law: no money - stay at home...
                I mean, who would allow a scarce resource to be squandered?
                We practice with the sailors the marching step on the parade ground and repelling boarding at the pier....
                And if there are enough guns and shells, why not go out and shoot? And then, you see, along the way, all sorts of screw-ups will pop up.
                1. 0
                  Yesterday, 09: 23
                  Any skill is given through practice, including shooting. Experience Data Tutashkhia to help)
                  But there, in reality, in addition to the human factor, there were a lot of other technical nuances with fragility and unreliability - they would have been identified in bulk, if such an opportunity had arisen.
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 12: 52
                    Quote: Dmitry24
                    Well, it's like Ohm's law: no money - stay at home...

                    :)))) And Ohm's law, does it completely ignore physics?:)))
                    You have a brand new ship with 4 main battery guns. And the crews of these guns need to be trained, for which they will undergo a full training course (let's say this course will eat up 10% of the barrel's survivability, the figure is conditional). In total, you will train 4 crews and the resource of all 4 guns will be 90%.
                    You get a ship with 6 main battery guns. You need to train their crews for EACH gun:)) So, you will have 6 main battery crews, and 6 guns with a resource of 90%. Where is the profit?:))))
                    1. 0
                      Yesterday, 13: 04
                      But wouldn't 6 guns instead of 4 increase accuracy (or rather, increase the number of hits), at least due to statistics? - 6 guns will fire more shells than 4...
                      1. +1
                        Yesterday, 13: 41
                        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                        But wouldn't 6 guns instead of 4 give an increase in accuracy (or rather an increase in the number of hits), at least due to statistics?

                        Accuracy, that is, the percentage of hits, with equal preparation will be the same. But the number of shells that hit the enemy will be greater.
                        In our example, let's say for 10-inch and 12-inch guns with equal gunner training, the accuracy is 10%, resulting in 10 hit for every 1 shells fired.
                        An EBR with 4*12-inch will fire 40 shells and achieve 4 hits, an EBR with 6*10-inch, if it can fire all of them at one side, will fire 60 shells and achieve 6 hits. Hits are one and a half times more, only a 10-inch shell is one and a half times smaller, so in terms of the weight of metal delivered to the enemy, that's what it will be. And considering that a larger caliber gives a greater chance of decisive damage...
                      2. 0
                        Today, 10: 58
                        Yes, I originally meant something else)
                        Comparing crayfish in threes, but small, with large ones, but fives, can take a long time - six chances against four to hit a vulnerable spot - that's also an option...
                        But I do not know.
                        My remark implied the merciless shooting of excess guns and ammunition during practical exercises... Since the creation of the Internet, we have been reading that the issue was not just hardware, but mostly people - they could be trained and educated during real training.
                      3. 0
                        Today, 11: 10
                        And with such a setup there was a chance to fix a legion of big and small bugs in the equipment.
                        As for comparative effectiveness, the original post suggests lengthening the 10" x 45 to 48 caliber. The question is certainly interesting - such a gun would probably surpass the 12" x 40 in armor penetration and simply
                        must have a higher rate of fire... These are like bonuses to improved training of personnel...
                        And half a kiloton saves weight...
                        No, not like that...
                        HALF A KILOTON OF WEIGHT SAVINGS
                      4. 0
                        Today, 11: 18
                        Half a kiloton is almost a foot of draft - i.e. it is a choice - bringing the coal reserve to "oceanic" sizes or, thanks to the reduction of resistance, raising the actual speed by half a knot plus savings in the consumption of the same coal
    2. +4
      2 December 2024 09: 24
      Quote: abc_alex
      In my opinion, what is more important is not the weight of the "suitcase" but the accuracy of the shooting.

      Which doesn't really depend on the caliber, but in general - a larger caliber projectile is more accurate
      Quote: abc_alex
      And the armor-piercing ability of a projectile is determined not only by its mass, but also by its speed at the moment of contact.

      At the same time, a heavier projectile maintains its speed better in flight, which is why a large caliber again has an advantage.
      Quote: abc_alex
      Therefore, in my opinion, it was more promising to focus on increasing the length of the barrel.

      This was well understood by artillerymen of all countries, but they were limited by the parameters of gun steel and production capabilities. In essence, they tried to make guns with the maximum available barrel length.
      Quote: abc_alex
      and improving guidance and fire control systems

      Rangefinders and optical sights had only just appeared. But our ships had fire control systems on them since 1876.
      Quote: abc_alex
      And not on the diameter of the projectile.

      You see, it's important not just to penetrate the armor, but also to do something bad there. It is the large caliber that allows you to penetrate the thickest armor and produce the most extensive behind-the-armor destruction.
      Quote: abc_alex
      By the way, that is why the navy measures distances in miles and cable lengths,

      Because the node is based on the nautical mile. A movement of one nautical mile along the meridian roughly corresponds to a change in geographic coordinates of one minute of latitude, this is simply convenient for navigational calculations.
      Quote: abc_alex
      and the speed in m/s?

      Who told you that?:))) In those years, speed was measured in feet per second, and projectile mass in Russian pounds, by the way. I'm converting this to meters and seconds:)))))
      1. 0
        Yesterday, 09: 37
        You are right in everything, but you did not take into account the specifics of domestic shipbuilding - a combination of construction overload with gluttonous engines and a modest supply of coal (excluding Ruriks and Peresvets).... Reducing the main engine breaks the vicious circle - the overload is reduced by about half a kiloton (by reducing the upper tower weight, you can rummage through the ballast or lighten the foundations of the crane manipulators)
        1. +1
          Yesterday, 12: 49
          Quote: Dmitry24
          Reducing the GC breaks the vicious cycle

          "Peresvet" and especially "Oslyabya" with their 10-inch caliber and very significant overload look at this thesis with deep bewilderment.
          The vicious circle is broken not by switching to a smaller caliber, but by creating a large reserve of design displacement. If there is none, you can design a battleship with 120 mm main guns, but the overload will still come out later.
          1. 0
            Yesterday, 14: 03
            And I'll call the Germans - they'll support me)
            No, well, really - the Germans have started building their own fleet...
            They are reasonable people, for them the motto "show-off is more important than money" is not a decree...
            Their level allowed them to create their own technologies, including technologies for producing as many large guns as they wanted, but no - they were stuck at 11", but with a lot of armor and a humane draft...
            And the fleet turned out to be quite competitive - maybe not on equal terms, but they competed with Britain.
            The Austrians also followed the same path and even more so - they used "multi-barrel" turrets on their, again, not bad semi-EBRs
            Both of them eventually lost, but without a rout, "on points", and not to some monkeys, but to the leader-hegemon...
            As for "Weaken" - the first pancake is lumpy. If we built five "Pobedas" instead of "Borodintsy" (cheap and fast - a tried and tested project, but old yeast) you'd see that today would be the day to write

            Having scientific and technical potential
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 14: 14
              Sorry for the typos)
              What about "Oslyabya" -- even "Sisoy" can be turned into a gem, but again with a 10" GK.... Only perhaps 2 x 1 x 10" -- the dog is too overloaded
              1. +1
                Yesterday, 15: 22
                Quote: Dmitry24
                And I'll call the Germans - they'll support me)

                Even the Mongols. And yes, they won't support you:))
                Quote: Dmitry24
                but no - they ran into 11", but there is a lot of armor and a humane draft...

                Do you understand how a ship is designed? The technical specifications are given - let's say we want a 4*12-inch and 12*6-inch EBM, full belt armor of 229 mm, speed of 18 knots, etc. Normal displacement within 12 tons.
                Let's count. The dimensions are clear +-, hence the mass of the hull is 4 tons, armor - 500, artillery - 3000, coal - 1500 tons, supplies and crew - 1000 tons, machines to accelerate this to 700 knots will require such and such power and will weigh 18 tons.
                So we come out to 12 tons. Can we build? No, because all our estimates are just estimates, life will add to them. We take and finish off 100 tons in reserve.
                It comes out to 12 tons, and here we understand that the machines are already too weak for this, they won’t give 600 knots, we need to add, and if we add machines and boilers, the hull will be longer, more armor will be needed, and taking all this into account + 18 tons of reserves, we get 500 tons.
                They laid down the battleship and it began - let's not have a common casemate, but separate ones, that's cool, but +200 tons. Let's add a couple of guns, with ammunition another 50 tons. Let's...
                But the point is that until the 500 t reserve is selected, there will be no overload. That is if there is a reserve.
                And what do you have? Well, you took 12 dm instead of 10 dm. And immediately the displacement in the project will not be 12, but 100. That's what everyone will focus on, and then it will be "Let's do this, let's do that" and that's it - overload.
                The issue of overload is not in the caliber, but in:
                1) Adequate reserve displacement, not occupied by any cargo during design.
                2) Knocking on the hands of admirals so that improvements are made on subsequent ships, and not rebuilt those already laid down