Su-25 and Mi-28 – all of them, into history?

174
Su-25 and Mi-28 – all of them, into history?

Tank. Since its appearance on the battlefields of the First World War, the multi-ton monster, bristling with barrels of various calibers, not afraid of practically any natural obstacles, became the basis of attack in all armies that could afford tank troops.


During the First World War, tanks had virtually no opponents, armor-piercing shells for land forces artillery were not invented due to the lack of targets for them, grenades existed exclusively in fragmentation form, so the only means of disabling a tank were mines, and anti-tank mines were invented quite quickly by all warring parties. No one bothered much, the Germans buried large-caliber shells with the fuse facing upwards, many countries simply used a box with 3-5 kg ​​of explosives and a pressure fuse.




The Second World War brought to the battlefield anti-tank artillery with armor-piercing and cumulative shells, “normal” mines, anti-tank rifles and grenades.


Plus appeared aviation, which by that time had grown from airplanes to planes. And quite naturally, military heads began to think about how to apply this new weapon against tanks, which were becoming an increasingly difficult target.

The pioneers in attacking tanks from the air were the Germans. Their Henschel Hs-129 (1939) became the world's first armored anti-tank aircraft. At least, that's what it was designed to be.


The Hs-129 was a completely unsuccessful aircraft both in terms of flight capabilities and armament. But more than enough has been written about this. 20 mm aircraft cannons were already worthless in 1941, an attempt to install a 30 mm Mk.101 or Mk.103 in a suspended container did not give any tangible results, and the 37 mm BK 3.7 was produced in small quantities and was used in the Junkers. Installing the BK 7.5 on the Hs-129 brought certain results, the cannon penetrated the T-34-85 very easily, but here's the problem - the Hs-129, which was already flying in the "devil's iron" category, practically stopped responding to the controls with such a container.


The effect of the Hs-129 was negligible. It is very hard to believe the figures of destroyed Soviet equipment that the Germans cite, because you read the memoirs of pilots who spoke about how difficult the Henschel was to control and how difficult it was to aim.

But, having understood the “zen” of aviation, the Germans continued their experiments, and so in 1942 the Junkers Ju.87G appeared, equipped with container 37-mm cannons under each wing, specifically for fighting tanks.


This Rustsatz was somewhat more effective than the Henschel, but only under reliable cover, because the already slow Ju.87 with two huge containers was a very easy target for Soviet fighters. Not as easy as the Hs-129, after all, was the gunner defending the rear hemisphere, but usually this only prolonged the agony and nothing more.

Well, it is not surprising that by 1944 only the very sad-headed Rudel was flying the Ju.87G, while the rest of the pilots preferred to switch to the FW.190...

The British tried to equip their Hurricane with 40 mm Vickers S cannons, but there was little use in this experiment: the 40 mm cannon shell penetrated the armor of German and Italian light tanks in Africa very well, but the Hurricanes themselves were very vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire, since the Hurricane, which was not distinguished by its maneuverability, with the installation of two large containers, became equal to the Junkers-87. But the Hurricanes of the IID version, albeit in small quantities, played the role of anti-tank aircraft.


The United States took a different approach by mounting a 75mm cannon on the B-25 Mitchell bomber.


But shooting at tanks was not used; during the process of creation, this aircraft changed orientation, and its targets became Japanese submarines in the Pacific Ocean.

Perhaps the most successful anti-tank aircraft of that war was our Il-2.


It is a paradox, but the aircraft's rather decent (compared to the Germans) number of destroyed armored vehicles was not provided by the guns, on which all the developers in the world relied. The 23-mm VYa gun was powerful for the aircraft, but it was completely insufficient for penetrating tank armor. The rockets, which were widely used from the Il-XNUMXs, flew, to put it mildly, "at whomever God sent."

The most effective means of destroying tanks and other armored vehicles were the PTAB-2,5 cumulative anti-tank bombs. A bomb weighing only 2,5 kg easily hit any German tank in the upper projection near the engine compartment, putting it out of action. Having dropped a bunch of such bombs, a squadron of Il-2s could easily burn down an entire column on the march. And they did, which is typical.


This is not an Il, this is a Yak, but this photo perfectly demonstrates the use of the PTAB-2,5.

It is clear that all this is the beginning of a whole journey, therefore the numbers of armored vehicles disabled by air attacks, understandably, are not impressive in quantity. And if we take into account certain factors, then the available numbers should be divided by 4 or 5.

Overall, the results show that while tank destroyers played a role in the war, admittedly their role was largely limited to exerting psychological pressure on the enemy, and their direct involvement in destroying tanks was limited.

In general, the value of attack/anti-tank aircraft was in attacking more vulnerable targets, disrupting supply lines and forcing the enemy to maneuver their equipment in order to preserve it, rather than in destroying tanks.

After all, if one tank superfighter Rudel destroyed 2530 tanks in 547 combat sorties, and the rest of the Reich's "heroes" were at least a little bit his equal, then the question is: who entered Berlin then? Infantry on camels and horses?


It must be admitted that the value of anti-tank aircraft was not great, but this was really the initial stage.

Having assessed the capabilities of tanks following the Second World War, many countries began not only to build tanks, but also to develop anti-tank weapons. Especially in Europe, when the Cold War began, the design bureaus were hot: something had to be put up against the armadas of Soviet tanks, which, according to many, were sure to reach the English Channel.


The 60s became the years of mass production of anti-tank weapons, and the evolution of these weapons rushed forward as if on steroids. And it was precisely in this era that new principles for the creation of new aviation anti-tank devices began to be laid. Moreover, helicopters joined airplanes, which had even greater prospects than airplanes.

A helicopter that doesn’t need a runway, that can land on any terrain, and if necessary, quickly take off, detect targets (tanks) and fire ATGMs at them – this was a prospect that appealed to everyone except the tank crews.


The Mi-24A and Bell AH-1 Cobra, born in those years, changed the generally accepted tactics of combat. And indeed, the tactics had to be changed: a helicopter cannot be detected in advance, like an ATGM operator in position, and then attacked with artillery or some other method. But helicopters were planned to be used exactly like this: approach at low altitude to previously detected enemy tanks, reach attack distance (including altitude), attack the tanks with ATGMs, and leave.

Considering that both the Americans' TOW and our "Falanga-M" were simply "from the heart", it is probably not surprising that such a terrible weapon for aviation as the ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" appeared in those same years. An ideal means to calm down any helicopter. By the way, the Germans got the "Gepard" "only" 10 years later, and the Americans never managed to protect their armored vehicles. "Stingers" on jeeps appeared much later.

And the planes. And not just any planes, but attack planes.

In general, this class has never been large. We understand stormtroopers a little differently than they do in the West, but in principle, if we brush aside the herd that the US calls "stormtroopers", then according to our canons they had 2-3 models worthy of being called that.

The main one, of course, is the A-10 Thunderbolt II, also known as the Warthog.


It appeared in 1972, that is, when the concept of using helicopters had already been thought about, accepted, and it was understood that a helicopter is not really for the battlefield. That is, it is possible on the battlefield, but there the helicopter does not last long: it becomes like a colander.

So, the US Air Force, using the Vietnamese experience of using helicopters, realized the need for flying equipment capable of withstanding intense ground fire and delivering precise and powerful strikes on armored vehicles. Soviet, Vietnamese – it’s not so important. What’s important is that an airplane appeared, which was quickly built around a six-barreled cannon.

The GAU-8 Avenger is, of course, to a Soviet tank what grapeshot is to an elephant: unpleasant, but not fatal. But for armored vehicles of a lower class, such as infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, yes, it is fatal.

Plus, the unique features of the A-10 include a titanium "bath" that protects the pilot and vital systems of the aircraft, allowing it to withstand significant damage and continue flying. In general, the Warthogs demonstrated all their skills in the wars around the Persian Gulf, destroying an impressive number of armored vehicles there.

The Su-25 is practically an analogue of the A-10, which has been compared to the American aircraft more than once.


However, if the A-10 was originally planned as an anti-armor aircraft, the Su-25 is more of a general-purpose attack aircraft, similar to the Il-2, with all the ensuing consequences in terms of equipment.

The Su-25 design lacks a radar, which limits the use of guided weapons with visual and laser guidance.

Both attack aircraft have been through the crucible of many military conflicts, confirming their importance on the battlefield. And at present, Su-25s are participating on both sides of the war between Russia and Ukraine.

Half a century has passed since anti-tank helicopters were “registered” in the troops, and these fifty years have given birth to true monsters of destruction: the AN-64 Apache, the Mi-28N, and the Ka-52.


In essence, different names, helicopters are almost equal in their capabilities (although, if anything, of course, I would prefer the Ka-52) in terms of destruction. You can argue for a long time about which is cooler, "Attack", "Whirlwind" or "Hellfire", but ... For a tank, the difference is very small. You can throw a turret from any missiles from this list.

With 10-degree radars on top of the hub, advanced targeting systems that allow the ability to track and engage multiple targets simultaneously, and the ability to fly at extremely low altitudes while hiding behind terrain, the development of these specialized aircraft and helicopters advanced anti-tank doctrine throughout the Cold War and for another twenty years afterward. The A-25 and Su-64, the AH-52 and Ka-XNUMX have proven their effectiveness in a variety of conflicts, adapting to new roles and technologies over the decades.

Their legacy lies not only in the innovations they brought to military aviation, but also in how they changed the tactics of warfare on the ground, moving from passive defense to active precision strikes against one of the most formidable threats on the battlefield: tanks.

And now what, that's it?

In general, the development of different types of weapons began in different years, and each made its own path up the evolutionary ladder.

The advent of man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS) has dramatically changed the nature of air-to-ground combat. These compact, shoulder-fired missile systems are highly effective against low-flying aircraft, whether airplanes or helicopters. Their unspoken motto of “simplicity and lethality,” as well as the ability to use them with minimal training, make them the weapon of choice for infantry units in various armies and rebel groups.

Today, MANPADS are commonplace, the latest modification of the Stinger costs only $70. And you can launch 000, 21, 000 missiles at a helicopter that costs $000 (the price of the Ka-52 for the Russian Aerospace Forces). The game will still be worth the candle.


And if you hit an Apache with an Igla, everything will be even sadder: the Igla is cheaper than the Stinger (not much, $50), but the Apache "weighs" about $000 million. So there will be universal sadness, like in November 50, when the Houthis landed an Apache of the Saudi Arabian Air Force with some homemade device. Or maybe not a homemade device, who can tell the truth.

In modern conflicts, the MANPADS threat continues to dictate air tactics. Modern close-in support aircraft must operate with increased caution despite their advanced defenses. Technological advances in MANPADS, with improved targeting and resistance to countermeasures such as flares and electronic jamming, further complicate the operating environment for these combat vehicles.

ATGMs are not at the level of the 70s of the last century either. Missiles have become smarter and more independent and are capable of hitting not only tanks. A helicopter is now a completely legitimate target for an anti-tank missile. And what does a cumulative jet designed to burn through 700 mm of armor do, no need to say, everyone probably saw the video from 2022, when an ATGM hit a helicopter. No chance. And again, it is the same system as MANPADS - “fire and forget”, the missile is smart, it will figure out where to go. And they figure it out.

In general, frontline aviation in the form of helicopters and attack aircraft has a very hard time. At altitudes above 1 km there is nothing to catch at all, except for anti-aircraft missiles, and they themselves will catch anyone.

But there is nothing good below either: MANPADS, ATGMs at very low altitudes, and what can I say, if the ZSU-23-2 acquired a personal radar five years ago, capable of operating at short distances, but the large 23-mm twins are not needed at all - at low altitudes it is also tense.

All that remains is to work from safe distances, but here too there is a problem after a problem: yes, the Su-34 is capable of launching the UMPK from its territory, and the operator will guide the bomb to the desired location practically without straining himself, if necessary. Modern radars easily draw a map of the area in the radar range, take it and use it.

But the Su-25 has no radar and will not have one. It is a direct contact aircraft. Yes, we have seen this stupidity - launching NURSs with a pitch-up attitude. Somewhere there, towards the enemy. Normal NURSs have never been particularly accurate, and here we have them throwing them around in general.

Yes, generals at the headquarters of many countries will have to reconsider all strategies and concepts regarding support of the front line.

Well, here comes His Majesty Drone.


And effectively put an end to the anti-tank war. UAVs They have a unique combination of stealth, accuracy and low cost, making them ideal for engaging heavily armored targets without risk to operators and pilots.

What can I say, you can't even compare it to an ATGM operator. A simple comparison:
1st generation, wire control. You shoot, unmask yourself, but you sit and work the joystick, aiming the missile.
2nd generation, laser. This is a total boredom for the operator, not only does the shot give away the camouflage, but the tank can easily detect the laser radiation and fire somewhere there...
3rd generation, IR guidance. Yes, good, fired and didn't forget, but ran very fast. There are chances for survival.

Everything is at point-blank range. In position, as they say. And if an enemy drone is hanging over the battlefield, in front of the positions, and its operator, God forbid, notices an ATGM operator with the characteristic Javelin canister - that's it, consider him dead. The tank itself will hit it or they'll send some petty nasty thing - the result will be the same: the ATGM operator won't have time to cool the matrix, so he'll end up in heaven with an uncooled one (possibly).


The drone operator sits at a relatively safe distance, he does not need to see the target to aim at it, like an ATGM operator or a Su-25 pilot. Usually, a reconnaissance aircraft hangs at a high altitude and transmits a picture of the area, and the killers follow his data.


And unlike a missile, a UAV can repeat the approach if something goes wrong. In general, different UAVs can be used in different ways. There are devices that can bring missiles to the launch range and illuminate targets with a laser.

And without human losses.

And when an ordinary modified household drone costing $1000 easily destroys a tank or, even worse, an air defense system costing millions of these same dollars, then there is a feeling of some kind of universal injustice: people developed, tested, and perfected a real combat vehicle, and then a buzzer assembled in a garage with an RPG-7 munition suspended on it simply reduces all their efforts to scrap metal.

That's all true, but we're talking about planes and helicopters, aren't we?


Helicopter. It is still a very useful character in the frontline: it can quickly throw ammunition into the encirclement or behind the front line, take out the wounded, bring in fresh fighters, move the sabotage and reconnaissance group, and so on. The anti-tank and combat role in general is increasingly questionable. The battlefield is now too saturated with weapons systems that can turn a helicopter into a pile of junk: MANPADS, ATGMs, large-caliber machine guns and small-caliber cannons - all of this, in addition to the SAMs, for which the helicopter is also a tasty target, can disable the helicopter.

And the FPV drone can light up the helicopter's body, and the speed to catch up and the altitude will be enough. Well, the helicopter won't climb high today. Above 1000 meters is already mortally dangerous.

But the main thing is that chasing tanks, infantry fighting vehicles/armored personnel carriers and other means of delivering anything is much more efficient and cheaper using drones.

"Vikhr", which is 9M-127-1, is a great missile! It flies 10 km in 28 seconds, can rise to a height of 4 km and hit someone there with a cumulative charge, penetrates 1000 mm of homogeneous armor, in general, it is much better than their "Hellfire", and, according to the assurances of the Tula gunsmiths, there is room for development.


I don't know how much one 9M-127-1 missile costs, but it's much more than a battery-powered ground beetle with an RPG-7 warhead attached with electrical tape. But the essence is the same.

Besides, this unhealthy excitement at the front, when they detect the roar and whistle of the blades, with the words "now we'll get them", unsheathing the MANPADS and gently stroking the tanks with liquid nitrogen - it forces the helicopters to work either at very low altitudes at night, or at a distance from the zone of possible destruction. Well, and I have already spoken about the effectiveness of launching a pack of NURS with a pitch-up "there".

The helicopter's biggest problem is its relatively low speed, which prevents it from properly maneuvering to evade enemy weapons.

It's a bit easier for a Su-25-type aircraft: more powerful engines provide higher speed and allow for more active maneuvering. But that's at, let's say, normal altitudes. And there are enemy aircraft and air defense systems. The same set of problems as a helicopter.

On the ultra-small ones, it's all the same. And even the "flying tank" of the attack aircraft, despite its armor, has problems above the keel.

And all this ends with one thing: losses in crews and combat vehicles. Yes, it would be nice to provide statistics on losses here, maybe not ours, which we don’t have, but the ones the British keep, but here you understand, all this is a lie and discreditation with all the consequences. Therefore, let’s just say this: given the current situation with personnel, the losses could become critical in terms of their replenishment.

And why not?

And because, if you look at the official website of the Ministry of Defense, military pilots in Russia are trained by only one educational institution - the Military Educational and Scientific Center (VUNC) of the Air Force "Air Force Academy named after Professor N. E. Zhukovsky and Yu. A. Gagarin", located in Voronezh.

Of course, not everything is so sad and clear-cut, because VUNTS also has branch faculties, where they train flight personnel, who never show their noses in Voronezh because they are completely unnecessary. It is a pity, of course, that once full-fledged schools with a glorious history have shrunk to the size of faculties, but at least something and somewhere:
- Fighter pilots are trained in Armavir;
- in Borisoglebsk – attack aircraft and bombers;
- in Balashov – crews of long-range and transport aviation;
- in Chelyabinsk – navigators;
- in Syzran – helicopter pilots;
- in Krasnodar – managers;
- in Voronezh – airfield specialists and aircraft technicians.

Does VUNC graduate enough personnel? Let's leave this question aside. We can only note that, for example, ChVAKUSH plans to recruit 500 people every year, another question is how many it recruits and how many reach graduation. It has long been known that we have so-so personnel for aviation. The matter is both in the somewhat complicated attitude towards the army as a whole, and in the fact that the people have not gone for health reasons in the majority.

That is, every pilot who is trained and experienced is worth his weight in diamonds. Gold can no longer be a measure, so to speak, due to its low cost. Therefore, if it is really possible to replace attack aircraft and helicopter pilots with the help of drone operators and destroy enemy armored vehicles as is happening now, it must be done.

Each Ka-52 helicopter costs the budget 21 million dollars. How many tanks can a Ka-52 destroy is a question, because everyone understands perfectly well that it may not have time to destroy even one, depending on how things go.


"Lancet", which is great at gutting European tanks, costs $35. That is, instead of one helicopter, you can order 000 "Lancets". Let's take it broadly and from the lordly shoulder that to destroy one "Leopard-600" you need 2 "Lancets". Misses, work EW enemy, breakdowns and everything else. 10 per tank. That is, with such a set you can take out 60 tanks. "Leo-2" costs from 4 to 10 million dollars depending on the modification and configuration. Let's take the average - 6 million.

That is, for the price of one Ka-52, you can knock out 60 tanks, the cost of which will be 360 ​​million dollars.

Will one Ka-52, even taking into account that it is the best attack helicopter in the world, be able to score so many? No. Even the Americans couldn't do that, although they beat Iraq's tank divisions to the punch.

It must be recognized that forward support aviation requires a complete revision of the concept of its use in light of recent changes on the battlefield.

Both attack aircraft and fire support helicopters can no longer be used in the same way as they were just 10 years ago. More precisely, they can, but this leads to losses of both equipment and crews.

In fact, the Su-25 has already been sentenced: it is being replaced by the Su-34, which can iron out the enemy's front line of defense, but do so from absolutely safe distances. And the UMPKs will be more accurate than the Su-25's NURS and bombs, everyone understands that.

And with the use of helicopters, the generals will have to rack their brains. However, conflicts on our planet are not always caused by the dense use of Defense, so the "turntables" will have work. Just reconsider their use.

But what else should we do if cheap drones are actually more effective in terms of combating enemy equipment than multi-million dollar flying combat vehicles?
174 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +7
    25 November 2024 05: 29
    Each Ka-52 helicopter costs the budget 21 million dollars.

    The Ka-52 helicopter is not worth a single dollar. It is worth a lot of rubles. And where do these rubles go? First of all, they go to pay the salaries of Russian helicopter builders, the salaries of Russian engine builders, the salaries of Russian electronics manufacturers, the salaries of Russian metallurgists who smelt duralumin for the helicopter, Russian power engineers who generate electricity that powers the machines that make helicopter parts and the furnaces that produce aluminum, and so on. All these people pay income tax, which is returned to the budget, and also buy sausage and underwear, the manufacturers of which receive a salary and pay taxes on it. I apologize to all my colleagues for writing these well-known truths, but reading Gaidar's lies in 2024 is simply disgusting.
    1. +19
      25 November 2024 06: 51
      Quote: Amateur
      but reading Gaidar's lies in 2024 is simply disgusting.

      Did you read the article to the end?
      It's NOT about economics at all, but about efficiency on the battlefield, about saving the lives of crews...
      1. -3
        25 November 2024 06: 53
        I mean what is written!
        Each Ka-52 helicopter costs the budget 21 million dollars.
        1. +4
          25 November 2024 06: 55
          Quote: Amateur
          I mean what is written!
          Each Ka-52 helicopter costs the budget 21 million dollars.

          Well, this is taken out of context and I still haven't received an answer to my question. Really, did you read the article TO the end?
          1. +3
            25 November 2024 09: 36
            Bravo Roman! Great article, finally!
            The Su-25 and the attack aircraft as a class in general are already a thing of the past, just like the cavalry regiments were in their time, you are right.
            But attack helicopters probably still have a future if they are rearmed and their use is reconsidered.
            1. +6
              25 November 2024 10: 39
              Quote: ramzay21
              But attack helicopters probably still have a future if they are rearmed and their use is reconsidered.

              In fact, the author of the article wrote about the need to review the tactics of combat use of both helicopters and attack aircraft. I am ready to assume that armored attack aircraft cannot be "written off" either, but rather that they need to be stored (mothballed) in case and when the nature of combat operations in the future changes again, as has happened more than once. After all, in the new and unknown realities of the future, they may again become necessary.
              1. +5
                25 November 2024 23: 28
                Quote: alex-defensor
                Actually, about the need to revise the tactics of combat use of both helicopters and attack aircraft

                The author is simply not aware that everything is already being revised and applied in accordance with the new realities. The helicopter is combat, armored, with an on-board radar and missile weapons, i.e. the Ka-52 PTR "Vikhr" is now being used differently. Firstly, laser target designation is now provided by a reconnaissance and target designation drone (Orlan-30, if memory serves) with a laser target designator from Krasnopol - unified. Thanks to this, the range of the "Whirlwind" was increased to 12 km instead of the previous maximum of 10 km, and the helicopter itself can launch missiles even from behind folds in the terrain, without direct visibility of the target - the target will be illuminated by the UAV. Since the "Whirlwind" missile is supersonic (unlike the "Helfire") and has a supersonic speed at the target at maximum range, there is a fundamental possibility of making small adjustments to the software to ensure the maximum range of the "Whirlwind" of the same design at an even greater range - at least 15 km. And if you try with the software and make the missile fly to the target along a flat ballistic trajectory, then with high-quality target designation / illumination, the range it will be possible to raise it to almost 18 km. The rocket's energy should be sufficient.
                But the Ka-52M helicopter is a whole battery of anti-tank missiles (from 12 pcs.+) and with this method of reconnaissance and target designation, even one or in a pair can eliminate a breakthrough of enemy armored vehicles and tanks on any section of the front within reach from the base. Speed ​​of reaction, large ammo, very powerful cumulative warhead that takes any tank head-on. No "Lancet" or "Tweezers" provide such an opportunity - such a speed of reaction to a threat, such ammo on one unit of aircraft (from 12 to 24 anti-tank missiles on one Ka-52M), and FPV may not be in such quantity in the right place, electronic warfare can be suppressed, and the power of the RPG-7 grenade against a modern tank is limited.
                The same goes for attack aircraft. They will ALWAYS be needed. That is why they should not be “stored”, but rather their production should be resumed in a modernized form. A battlefield aircraft will be needed for a long time to come. It is like a firefighter over the battlefield. And new weapons, including high-precision ones, can be guided from the RiTs UAV in the same way as is already happening in the case of the Ka-52. Only the attack aircraft will arrive faster. In addition, not every theater of military operations will be so saturated with air defense systems, so attack, fly-by and dive bombing will also be useful. If not in Europe, then in some other theater of military operations. Light, cheap, armored, maneuverable and thrust-armed, as well as light and easy to maintain, which ensures high combat performance - the number of sorties per day, preparation time between sorties.
                Quote: alex-defensor
                After all, in the new and unknown realities of the future, they may again become necessary.

                There will always be a need for combat helicopters and attack aircraft. Therefore, the fleet of Soviet attack aircraft must be maintained, but at the same time, production must be prepared and construction of an updated version of the Su-25 must be resumed. Belarus also wants this and even offered to build them at home. Our new allies and old partners in arms procurement will also probably be interested in them.
                I think a justified fleet of such attack aircraft for the VKS is from 300 to 500 units. And it is definitely worth it.
                1. 0
                  26 November 2024 13: 44
                  Great information. Thanks!
                2. +1
                  29 November 2024 15: 24
                  Bravo!
                  This is a direct, detailed answer to the question of the article!
                  Yes, the approach and means are changing and everything is no longer so clear-cut.
                  At least rotary-wing aircraft have the advantage of efficiency and maneuver speed, and that's a fact. Unmanned reconnaissance and target designation vehicle + ATGM with increased range. That's it!
                  And the SU-25 has not exhausted its potential; some modernization, installation of a radar in a suspended version, and guided bombs with a rocket engine increasing the range could increase the effectiveness of its use.
            2. +9
              25 November 2024 12: 18
              Well, the author has come up with another ode to drones, and this is short-sighted. The SVO is the first full-scale war, where +/- balanced opponents began to massively and mutually use kamikaze drones. Add to this the inertia of the thinking of the leadership of our Ministry of Defense. And over time, various antidotes to these drones will appear - optical jammers, and specialized cheap APS, and interceptor drones, etc., etc. ... and then - helicopters, artillery, and tanks - will again become relevant.
              1. +10
                25 November 2024 17: 42
                And not for the first time odes to drones. Only Roman probably does not understand that NATO will fight Russia not with drones, but with high-precision cruise missiles, aircraft, tanks, artillery. It is the Papuans who fight with drones, because they can’t do anything really. If Russia waged a war of extermination, Ukraine would no longer exist. And there would be no one to launch drones!
      2. +2
        25 November 2024 18: 36
        Another fan of drones has written another article. All this has happened in history before and more than once. UAVs came out and demonstrated themselves beautifully. Well done. Now specialized organizations and research institutes will strain their mental muscles and make the necessary systems. Any electronics can always be crushed or damaged. And after that, the drone will be one of the means, and not the king of the battlefield. And commercial crafts will disappear altogether. Everything depends on how quickly the budget is sawed off.
    2. +4
      25 November 2024 10: 46
      Quote: Amateur
      Each Ka-52 helicopter costs the budget 21 million dollars.

      The Ka-52 helicopter is not worth a single dollar. It is worth a lot of rubles. And where do these rubles go? First of all, they go to pay the salaries of Russian helicopter builders, the salaries of Russian engine builders, the salaries of Russian electronics manufacturers, the salaries of Russian metallurgists who smelt duralumin for the helicopter, Russian power engineers who generate electricity that powers the machines that make helicopter parts and the furnaces that produce aluminum, and so on. All these people pay income tax, which is returned to the budget, and also buy sausage and underwear, the manufacturers of which receive a salary and pay taxes on it. I apologize to all my colleagues for writing these well-known truths, but reading Gaidar's lies in 2024 is simply disgusting.

      All this is true, but not entirely correct. A manufactured truck, for example, will work and be useful for 10-15 years, but a downed plane or helicopter will not. Yes, the worker will receive his salary and pay taxes, but the output will be zero, and expensive materials will be wasted. Therefore, the author is right somewhere when he suggests directing money to drones
      1. +4
        25 November 2024 13: 19
        the author is right somewhere when he suggests directing money to drones

        There was once a leader of the USSR named Nikita "the corn man" Khrushchev. He decided that all the issues of the USSR's defense could only be resolved with missiles. And therefore the Soviet army did not need airplanes, ships, or barrel artillery. And he ordered that all of this be cut up for scrap metal. But as soon as Nikita "the asshole" "got a kick in the ass," the military had to rebuild it all from scratch.
        Therefore, the conclusion: everything in the army must be balanced. Therefore, there is no need to rush from one extreme to another. I predict: in the near future, a new generation of electronic warfare will appear and drones will quickly "fly away" from the battlefield.
        1. +4
          25 November 2024 17: 48
          Thanks to the fact that, as you put it, "maize man" focused on rocket engineering, we are now communicating with you not under the protectorate of NATO, since only the strategic missile forces prevent the West from going to war with us. So before you start slandering us, think first. Yes, Khrushchev did a lot of stupid things, but he was not afraid of the West, and he was not afraid to show Kuzkina's mother.
          1. +1
            25 November 2024 20: 25
            Thanks to the fact that, as you put it, the "maize man" focused on rocket science, we are now communicating with you not under the protectorate of NATO, since only the strategic missile forces prevent the West from going to war against us.
            Do you seriously believe that in order to develop the Strategic Missile Forces it was necessary to reduce the army, destroy the aviation, artillery and navy (which is what Khrushchev Kukuruzny did)?
            1. +3
              25 November 2024 23: 18
              The mass construction of nuclear submarines, both torpedo and strategic, began under Khrushchev. And our first aircraft-carrying cruisers weren't laid down under him?
              1. -1
                26 November 2024 07: 57
                And our first aircraft-carrying cruisers weren’t laid down under him?
                No, not under him, especially since they demanded aviation, which was destroyed.
            2. +2
              26 November 2024 01: 37
              I seriously believe that fighters and the navy will not solve anything in an exchange of intensive missile strikes. I seriously believe that even Khrushchev, with all his tyranny, clearly understood that armadas of tanks would not save us from hundreds of missile launches, and I seriously believe that he understood that even the mighty and great USSR would not survive in a confrontation with the NATO bloc. Even if he did not understand this, then even for the fact that he simply guessed the development of the direction for the country's security, he should be thanked. There is no need to take individual negative consequences and write about them. This way you can make anyone look negative. Everyone has pros and cons.
              1. +1
                26 November 2024 08: 00
                I seriously believe that fighters and the navy will not decide anything in an exchange of intense missile strikes.
                Do you seriously believe that there will be no other war except a global war? You reason like Khrushchev. History has shown that proxy wars have been going on continuously since the 40s and until now, and they have required modern weapons.
                1. -1
                  26 November 2024 17: 47
                  Russia has enough strength for proxy wars, only for wars, and not for its own, who, and so on.
            3. -1
              26 November 2024 06: 23
              Quote: Aviator_
              Thanks to the fact that, as you put it, the "maize man" focused on rocket science, we are now communicating with you not under the protectorate of NATO, since only the strategic missile forces prevent the West from going to war against us.
              Do you seriously believe that in order to develop the Strategic Missile Forces it was necessary to reduce the army, destroy the aviation, artillery and navy (which is what Khrushchev Kukuruzny did)?

              Let's put it this way. Army reduction led to war? Someone attacked us? Until 2022, no one even thought about attacking a nuclear power, and when everyone realized that red lines don't work, it all started.
              1. +1
                26 November 2024 08: 03
                Let's put it this way. Army reduction led to war? Someone attacked us? Until 2022, no one even thought about attacking a nuclear power,
                Why attack with nuclear weapons if everything can be done with proxy wars of attrition? And proxy wars require conventional weapons, not nuclear ones. There have been enough proxy wars: Vietnam, Angola, the Middle East, Afghanistan.
                1. +1
                  26 November 2024 08: 24
                  Quote: Aviator_
                  Let's put it this way. Army reduction led to war? Someone attacked us? Until 2022, no one even thought about attacking a nuclear power,
                  Why attack with nuclear weapons if everything can be done with proxy wars of attrition? And proxy wars require conventional weapons, not nuclear ones. There have been enough proxy wars: Vietnam, Angola, the Middle East, Afghanistan.

                  Why get involved in these wars? Have you forgotten about Angola? Or Afghanistan? I won't ask about Egypt and Vietnam, both of these countries are now quite friendly with the US, and we are friends with Israel. Someone wrote there that American missiles would be stationed there.
                  1. 0
                    26 November 2024 08: 30
                    Have you forgotten about Angola? Or Afghanistan? I won't ask about Egypt and Vietnam, both of these countries are now quite friendly with the US,
                    Do you think that if we sit and keep a low profile, like the Russian Federation did from 1991 to 2022, then there will be a "beautiful dissolution of the air"? Not at all. Then the country will fall apart and become a mass of small Bantustans. In 2022, this suddenly dawned on our leaders.
                    1. 0
                      26 November 2024 09: 47
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      Have you forgotten about Angola? Or Afghanistan? I won't ask about Egypt and Vietnam, both of these countries are now quite friendly with the US,
                      Do you think that if we sit and keep a low profile, like the Russian Federation did from 1991 to 2022, then there will be a "beautiful dissolution of the air"? Not at all. Then the country will fall apart and become a mass of small Bantustans. In 2022, this suddenly dawned on our leaders.

                      Was Russia preparing to disintegrate into many bandustans? Right from the 2000s to 2014? It somehow hasn't fallen apart since the 1990s.
                      1. 0
                        26 November 2024 18: 34
                        Somehow it hasn't fallen apart since the 1990s.
                        Are you serious? The destruction of the USSR doesn't count? Then I'm ending the conversation. hi
                      2. -2
                        27 November 2024 06: 28
                        Quote: Aviator_
                        Somehow it hasn't fallen apart since the 1990s.
                        Are you serious? The destruction of the USSR doesn't count? Then I'm ending the conversation. hi

                        So are we talking about the USSR, which got into these Angolas and Afghanistans, or about Russia? You decide.
            4. -1
              27 November 2024 06: 41
              Quote: Aviator_
              Thanks to the fact that, as you put it, the "maize man" focused on rocket science, we are now communicating with you not under the protectorate of NATO, since only the strategic missile forces prevent the West from going to war against us.
              Do you seriously believe that in order to develop the Strategic Missile Forces it was necessary to reduce the army, destroy the aviation, artillery and navy (which is what Khrushchev Kukuruzny did)?

              To maintain all of this at the same time, enormous resources are required. And in this regard, both Khrushchev and Gorbachev acted correctly, reducing military expenditures. No economy can withstand maintaining a five-million-strong army in peacetime. Even now, no one is planning to increase it beyond 3 million people.
              1. 0
                27 November 2024 07: 47
                To maintain all of this at the same time requires enormous resources. And in this regard, both Khrushchev and Gorbachev acted correctly, reducing military spending.
                Both of them first ruined the economy with their reforms, then began to cut military spending. What is right here?
          2. 0
            27 November 2024 00: 43
            Quote: Igor Viktorovich
            Thanks to the fact that, as you put it, "maize man" focused on rocket engineering, we are now communicating with you not under the protectorate of NATO, since only the strategic missile forces prevent the West from going to war with us. So before you start slandering us, think first. Yes, Khrushchev did a lot of stupid things, but he was not afraid of the West, and he was not afraid to show Kuzkina's mother.

            Well, if you, Igor, want to be honest, then the foundations of rocketry were not laid by the maize grower at all, but by Joseph Visarionovich Stalin together with Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria. And it was Beria who supervised the entire nuclear project and rocketry in absentia. And all the first ICBMs were launched precisely during the time of Beria and Stalin, and the maize grower simply screwed up the aviation and navy and many other things, and redirected most of the resources to rocketry, but not only ICBMs but even missiles to replace barrel artillery!!! And I don’t even want to talk about the economy. I’ll just point out that before him the USSR exported grain, and during the Khrushchev era they began to import it!!!
            1. -1
              27 November 2024 05: 45
              the cornfield just screwed up the air force and the navy and a lot of other things,

              nedgen, this is a stupid idea, for some reason loved by many people

              If the corncob destroyed the aviation - then in what year did the MiG-21 enter service? the most produced jet aircraft in history

              And if the Khrushchev destroyed the fleet, in what period were they built? 10 missile cruisers (projects 58, 1123, 1134) or for example 20 Project 61 missile destroyers (BPK)
      2. +4
        25 November 2024 17: 45
        Here and now, and tomorrow a war with NATO and the entire West. Will the author fight them with drones? We'll send a hundred drones at them, they'll send a hundred high-precision missiles at us. This is a long trap for our military-industrial complex. Of course, we need to develop this area, but we shouldn't forget about hypersonics and missiles. And aviation and artillery have been buried more than once.
    3. +1
      25 November 2024 13: 33
      Is it worth producing helicopters for the sake of this chain, which are not particularly relevant?
      Reminds me of the support for AvtoVAZ. Why should taxpayers support inefficient enterprises?
      Production for the sake of production.
    4. +6
      25 November 2024 14: 41
      Quote: Amateur
      buy sausage and panties

      And those who produce Lancets - don't they buy sausages and panties?
      Don't pay taxes?
    5. +2
      25 November 2024 19: 49
      You forgot to mention:
      1) to pay taxes to this very budget, from which military-industrial complex enterprises receive money for the production of orders;
      2) on interest on bank loans, which (interest) constitute the profit of Russian banks, which (after covering expenses and paying taxes) goes, among other things, to paying remuneration to members of the Management Board (Board of Directors), to extra bonuses for top management, to organizing New Year's and other corporate events, and so on, bankers are well-known inventors)), and of course to dividends to shareholders of Russian banks, where the dividends of shareholders go, if the shareholder is not the state (!), I think there is no need to explain;
      3) for dividend payments to shareholders of military-industrial complex enterprises (yes, imagine, most military-industrial complex enterprises have their own shareholders, among whom is our God-preserved state with different sizes of share packages);
      Further, we can mention the profits of energy companies and producers of raw materials, semi-finished products and materials...

      Profit is the main, the most important and the only thing for which all production processes are undertaken under the capitalist mode of production!

      Well, yes... then all this "salary-underwear-sausage-taxes..."

      And, yes, the budget pays for the helicopter in rubles, although most of these rubles appear in the budget from the sale of dollars (export revenue from the sale of oil), but these are just details)))

      Quote: Amateur
      Reading Gaidar's lies in 2024 is simply disgusting

      By the way, this same memorable Gaidar explained to ordinary Russians the need to increase prices on everything several times in 1991, exactly the way you are doing it...
      1. -1
        25 November 2024 21: 44
        By the way, E. Gaidar was in the government (in various positions) for no more than a year from November 1991 to December 1992. 32 years have passed since then, and who hasn't run the government! It seems to me that we can forget about Gaidar.
      2. 0
        29 November 2024 17: 05
        I was surprised that (if you believe the author) the NEEDLE costs $50000 (wiki says 60000-80000), given that in the mid-90s the price was $12-14 thousand. What happened that the price increased several times?
    6. 0
      26 November 2024 09: 38
      If these helicopters are sold abroad so that the money spent is returned, then you are right, but the author is right when he talks about how much they cost the budget.
    7. -2
      26 November 2024 14: 27
      Quote: Amateur
      receive a salary and pay taxes on it

      My dear, what about Lancets and panties?
      For 24 hours now I have been burning with desire to continue the conversation.
      Are you shy?
    8. 0
      29 November 2024 15: 26
      Rubles can be used to build pyramids and a great wall of curbstone. Everything will stay in Russia, and will provide jobs for millions of workers. They will buy sausage and clothes, and the economy will develop.
      1. -1
        29 November 2024 20: 06
        Quote from Kuziming
        Everything will remain in Russia, it will provide jobs for millions of workers

        Are you going to import migrants to build walls from curbstone? Have you read Marx's Capital? Or at least some basics of economics? Have you ever wondered why Russia's standard of living is somewhere on the level of Pakistan, Angola and Syria?
        1. 0
          30 November 2024 18: 37
          Quote from Kartograph
          Have you ever wondered why...


          Now is not the time to think. No time. And no reason. Everything has already been thought up before us. Turn on the TV - they will explain everything to you there. No need to strain your brain once again...
  2. +9
    25 November 2024 05: 34
    The attack aircraft and helicopter move at speeds of hundreds of km/h.

    The speed of movement of the PU with Lancets from one to another section of the front is tens of km/h and long hours of waiting, if not days
    1. +4
      25 November 2024 05: 38
      The attack aircraft and helicopter move at speeds of hundreds of km/h.

      The speed of movement of the PU with Lancets from one to another section of the front is tens of km/h and long hours of waiting, if not days

      Why not transport the Lancets with their crews using cheap Mi-8s?
      1. +11
        25 November 2024 06: 02
        Why not transport the Lancets with their crews using cheap Mi-8s?

        In short, it can be formulated like this - you will get tired of loading and carrying). And time, time, time

        About cheap Mi-8. Everything connected with aviation is not cheap
        1. +7
          25 November 2024 06: 06
          Continuing the thought
          The speed of movement of the PU with Lancets from one to another section of the front is tens of km/h and long hours of waiting, if not days

          It was this logic that allowed aviation to grow and develop in its time.

          When 10 plywood shelving units from the 1910s dropped fewer bombs in an hour than one battery of howitzers could fire in a minute. But try to get those howitzers to where they are needed most quickly…
        2. +3
          25 November 2024 14: 53
          That is why the Lancet needs to be integrated into the ammunition load of attack helicopters. And there is no need to unload anything. Promptly on request, it moves to the required point. It is launched from the near rear. The pilot draws circles in the sky at low altitude. The weapons operator leads the Lancets to the target.
          Something similar was discussed 10 years ago, though in the context of a long-range ATGM and a reconnaissance drone paired with a helicopter.
          And it seems like they tested some models on Apaches and tried something.
          But with Lancet this can be done more easily.
          1. 0
            27 November 2024 16: 06
            Something similar was discussed 10 years ago, though in the context of a long-range ATGM and a reconnaissance drone paired with a helicopter.


            Before

            Due to the absence of a second helicopter crew member, who is usually engaged in searching for targets and aiming all guided weapons, it was planned to use unusual combat tactics when the Ka-50 received external target designation from its partner (a reconnaissance helicopter).

            The lighter B-60 helicopter, which was being developed at the same time (later designated Ka-60 Killer Whale), was initially going to be used as a reconnaissance and target designator helicopter. But the program to create it almost completely stopped after the construction of the first model in the early 1990s. And the Kamov Design Bureau chooses for this role the two-seat Ka-52 Alligator, which was a more universal product, since in addition to performing the tasks of a “command” vehicle, it could be successfully used as an attack helicopter, capable of independently fighting, even in the dark and in difficult weather conditions.

            In parallel, in the 1990s, unmanned reconnaissance helicopters were developed for the Ka-50: Ka-37 and Ka-137 (predecessors of modern drones).

      2. +3
        25 November 2024 12: 03
        Quote: Konnick
        Why not transport the Lancets with their crews using cheap Mi-8s?

        And then cross a snake with a hedgehog, getting a helicopter carrier of a UAV. smile
        Or long-range ATGMs operating on data from a reconnaissance UAV.
      3. +1
        25 November 2024 13: 59
        Why not transport the Lancets with their crews using cheap Mi-8s?


        Because it is more effective to hang normal ATGMs or guided missiles with a powerful warhead on the same Mi-8, rather than roll a team of gamers and their firecrackers.
        1. +2
          25 November 2024 17: 35
          Modern wheeled self-propelled guns have a range of 40 km, and their shells are highly accurate, including self-guided ones.
          And the 155 mm projectile really does have a powerful warhead.
          1. +4
            25 November 2024 17: 44
            Modern wheeled self-propelled guns have a range of 40 km, and their shells are highly accurate, including self-guided ones.
            And the 155 mm projectile really does have a powerful warhead.


            That's true, but their mobility is worse than helicopters'. The principle is that the smaller the army, the higher the mobility should be.
            1. +1
              25 November 2024 17: 59
              They should complement each other.
              1. +2
                25 November 2024 18: 06
                They should complement each other.


                This is also true. Unfortunately, those at the top do not understand this. And, for example, the same DShBr was abolished.
      4. -2
        25 November 2024 17: 14
        Quote: Konnick
        Why not transport the Lancets with their crews using cheap Mi-8s?

        Why not use self-aiming ammunition in cassettes instead of drones? Even electronic warfare won't help here. We launch 5 missiles at 100 km with a tornado, each missile contains 5-10 self-aiming ammunition. Such ammunition was already produced in the USSR
      5. +1
        29 November 2024 15: 28
        Create more calculations, no need to work on all fronts alone.
    2. +2
      25 November 2024 07: 29
      Quote: Santa Fe
      The attack aircraft and helicopter move at speeds of hundreds of km/h.

      The speed of movement of the PU with Lancets from one to another section of the front is tens of km/h and long hours of waiting, if not days

      1 lancet 1 ka52. To the front section
      And if so: 600 lancets 1ka52?
      1. 0
        27 November 2024 05: 32
        Ivan, I didn't notice your comment right away.

        600 lancets per front line - looks tempting in theory

        In practice, for a large group of troops on a 1000 km front, the presence of at least a hundred attack helicopters seems a reasonable necessity. The Armed Forces can afford it. And there will be a use for the Ka52

        Instead of the idea of ​​stamping out only lancets, lancets, for all occasions in life - 100500 lancets. Why go to extremes?
        1. +1
          29 November 2024 17: 09
          Reminded me of Khrushchev's extreme - why artillery if there are missiles, and now, why helicopters if there are UAVs
    3. -1
      25 November 2024 21: 25
      Fuck???!!! (I mean, why?) Regular units in the army/division. What's the problem? Well, everything has already been proven/tested in practice. And not with the Papuans.
  3. +9
    25 November 2024 05: 49
    It seems like this has already happened. Why do we need aviation, artillery, etc. when we have KUZ'KINA and orbital....
    You can't be forgetful.
  4. +2
    25 November 2024 06: 05
    The next one - infantry, artillery, tanks, ships, EVERYTHING!
    But it doesn’t just end right away, there are options...
  5. +6
    25 November 2024 06: 19
    Somehow I wasn't even surprised when I saw the author of the article. The author has already cancelled a lot of things.
    1. +3
      25 November 2024 06: 25
      As soon as I see an article that starts with a picture and the ratio of the image area to the text is more than 1, I immediately recognize the author and get comfortable. I know: each such article is a masterpiece and unbridled fun laughing
      1. +4
        25 November 2024 08: 02
        I agree entirely!
    2. +4
      25 November 2024 06: 34
      Somehow I wasn't even surprised when I saw the author of the article. The author has already cancelled a lot of things.

      Why did you cancel it? The problem exists and aviation no longer influences the course of military operations proportionally to the costs of it. Combat equipment in the form of a Ka52 helicopter for 2 billion rubles is idle at airfields and why should we keep silent about this and watch with delight the launches of unguided rockets from a pitching position...
      1. 0
        25 November 2024 08: 04
        You obviously have a good understanding of NAR launches from pitching up, since you state this so authoritatively!
        1. -3
          25 November 2024 08: 09
          You obviously have a good understanding of NAR launches from pitching up, since you state this so authoritatively!

          It was a long time ago, but I visited the plant that produced this weapon for attack aircraft, and back then they didn’t even mention pitched launches...
      2. +3
        25 November 2024 09: 32
        Landing of troops in Gostomil. They were delivered by UAV. The problem is not in the technology, but in the proper use. And the generals of the Russian Armed Forces have big problems with this. I just don’t want to write about our generals, because they are not up to our level.
        Why didn't they land troops in Izmail and from there didn't they go to join Transnistria? Why did the landing ships stand like targets in the port of Berdyansk? And there are many other questions that can be asked.
        1. +2
          25 November 2024 21: 46
          Landing of troops in Gostomel. One.
          Can you name two?
      3. -3
        25 November 2024 14: 10
        Why did you cancel it? The problem exists and aviation no longer influences the course of military operations proportionally to the costs of it. Combat equipment in the form of a Ka52 helicopter for 2 billion rubles is idle at airfields and why should we keep silent about this and watch with delight the launches of unguided rockets from a pitching position...


        Launching unguided rockets from a pitched position, because there is a shortage of ATGMs, as well as helicopters themselves.
        Here is a video from Chechnya, when the command still understood that saving was fraught with danger, therefore the minimum order of forces was four Mi-24 and two Mi-8 providing PSO.
        The enemy no longer had any armored vehicles at that time, so they only hung up four ATGMs. But they still found targets for them.
        Nowadays, we can only dream of something like this.
        1. 0
          25 November 2024 21: 29
          They launched it from the CBR because they were afraid of MANPADS and air defense
          1. 0
            25 November 2024 21: 31
            They launched it from the CBR because they were afraid of MANPADS and air defense


            Another "specialist". lol
            1. 0
              25 November 2024 21: 48
              It's time for amazing stories
              1. 0
                25 November 2024 22: 06
                It's time for amazing stories


                You are not the first one here. lol
                1. 0
                  25 November 2024 22: 23
                  I don't get it. Are you looking for those who think that launching bunkers from a pitched position is an effective way to use bunkers, or are you one of those who think that our helicopters are not, and have not been, threatened by the VSU air defense?
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2024 22: 48
                    I don't get it. Are you looking for those who think that launching bunkers from a pitched position is an effective way to use bunkers, or are you one of those who think that our helicopters are not, and have not been, threatened by the VSU air defense?


                    There are many things you don't understand. NARs have never been known for their accuracy, their job is to cover an area. Launches from a pitched position are harassing fire, the same as artillery shelling squares. And in this case, helicopters act as mobile MLRS.
                    This method allows increasing the range to 15 km.
                    1. 0
                      25 November 2024 22: 57
                      Have you seen the dispersion tables? Who are you disturbing with this fire?
                      1. +1
                        25 November 2024 22: 59
                        Have you seen the dispersion tables? Who are you disturbing with this fire?

                        I not only saw it, but I also did it at one time. lol
                      2. 0
                        25 November 2024 23: 00
                        I don't know what you were doing there. In any case, you weren't doing much.
                      3. +1
                        25 November 2024 23: 01
                        I don't know what you were doing there. In any case, you weren't doing much.

                        Of course, you can see it better from the sofa. lol
                      4. 0
                        25 November 2024 23: 04
                        Once again for the especially gifted practitioners - why let the bunkers pitch up and into the milk, if you can fly up and land within line of sight? With a much greater effect?
                      5. 0
                        25 November 2024 23: 17
                        Once again for the especially gifted practitioners - why let the bunkers pitch up and into the milk, if you can fly up and land within line of sight? With a much greater effect?


                        Once again, for the armchair warriors, this is harassing fire, designed to make life difficult for the enemy in the rear.
                        If you want to hit targets in the enemy rear at a distance of 1200 - 2000 meters, then you need to start a whole operation, organize an air defense system, and suppress air defense.
                        But this requires intelligence data and worthy targets.
                        And if there are no such goals, then what, let the enemy feel safe there?
                        Have you asked the artillerymen why they fire at squares instead of moving their guns into the enemy's rear for direct fire? lol
                        Do you even have any idea what combat helicopters are for?
                      6. 0
                        25 November 2024 23: 21
                        Do you understand that this is essentially just a waste of missiles to nowhere? That the experience of WWII and WWII largely shows that harassing fire is a profanation (well, what can you do?) And the air defense does not allow you to fly closer and hit, not just with bunks, but with the same assault or attack. Do not pass off necessity as virtue.
                      7. 0
                        25 November 2024 23: 46
                        Do you understand that this is essentially just a waste of missiles to nowhere? That the experience of WWII and WWII largely shows that harassing fire is a profanation (well, what can you do?) And the air defense does not allow you to fly closer and hit, not just with bunks, but with the same assault or attack. Do not pass off necessity as virtue.


                        Were the night regiments on the U-2 also engaged in profanation? After all, they also bombed the deployment areas. Go, I repeat, when the artillery works in squares?
                        It's only in your gaming consciousness that there are two modes: hit or miss.
                        And the fact that damage to the enemy can be inflicted without direct damage.
                        The task of the same U-2 was simply to give the Germans sleepless nights. Because a chronically tired soldier is not a fighter.
                        And even the banal disruption of the relocation deadlines due to shelling, the need to change the location of deployment, also means a lot.
                        The task of combat helicopters is to support ground forces at the front line. Because only helicopters can work precisely when the opposing sides are in combat contact. That's what they were created for. The closest tactical depth is already the business of frontline aviation.
                        But if there is a lull at the front, then why just sit there if you can make a stir in the enemy's rear. Although this does not apply to the tasks of combat helicopters.
                        But just sending a couple of planes behind the front line, just in case, has the same effect as working under voltage with bare hands.
                      8. 0
                        26 November 2024 05: 16
                        Interrogation of a prisoner of war, a non-commissioned officer of the combined company of the 61st Infantry Division, captured on 19.3.44 in the area east of SOOKYULA, south of mark 33.9. /8149/
                        Interrogated on 22.3.44.
                        ZACHER OSKAR, born in 1914, German, born and lived in Erfurt. Education: 8 grades and 3 years of vocational school.
                        ...
                        During the period from 15.03.44 to 19.03.44 the company of 80 people lost 14, of which 3 were killed, the rest were wounded. The losses mainly occurred from anti-tank artillery fire /shooting direct fire/ and from tanks firing cannons and machine guns.
                        On 16.3.44, the air force bombed almost the entire day from the front line into the depths, but there were no losses. Subsequently, they were subjected to systematic bombing, but there were also no losses. The results of the bombing were not effective. On the night of 18.3.44 to 19.3.44, U-2 aircraft bombed, dropping more than 160 aerial bombs, which fell mainly on the neutral zone and depth, where there was neither manpower nor equipment.
                        During the period from 16 to 19.4. 44, 50-3 aerial bombs were dropped on the company's section along the front of 250 meters and 300 km deep, but they did not cause any damage, they only had a moral effect. Soldiers assess the inaccuracy of the bombing as the inexperience of the pilots and lack of knowledge of the location.
                        From conversations with soldiers I heard that the Russians also intensively bombed the artillery positions on the coast of the Gulf of Finland, where a large number of field, anti-aircraft and coastal artillery were located along the road leading to the coast, but the results of the bombing were also inaccurate.
                      9. 0
                        26 November 2024 05: 51
                        Well, why use helicopters for tasks that are not their natural ones? Not enough artillery? Can't suppress air defense, can't do reconnaissance and interact with infantry? So you have to PRETEND combat work with a worthless tool?
                      10. 0
                        26 November 2024 22: 41
                        Well, why use helicopters for tasks that are not their natural ones? Not enough artillery? Can't suppress air defense, can't do reconnaissance and interact with infantry? So you have to PRETEND combat work with a worthless tool?


                        All claims are directed at the Russian leadership, which is unable to establish production of a sufficient number of ATGMs.
                        That's why the tasks are unusual.
                      11. 0
                        27 November 2024 16: 28
                        Well, why use helicopters for tasks that are not their natural ones?
                        Apparently there was no artillery in that area and it would be more expensive to lift the plane.
                    2. 0
                      29 November 2024 03: 43
                      vovochkarzhevsky
                      +1
                      This method allows increasing the range to 15 km.
                      is this for c-8 and from what height?
                      In general, maybe there is a longer-range unguided rocket for the SU-25?
                      1. 0
                        2 December 2024 12: 37
                        is this for c-8 and from what height?


                        Yes, since WWI.

                        In general, maybe there is a longer-range unguided rocket for the SU-25?


                        Of course, C-12, C-24, C-25.
                    3. 0
                      29 November 2024 03: 51
                      is this what you're talking about?
                      https://topwar.ru/226517-novaja-neupravljaemaja-aviacionnaja-raketa-s-8kl-s-kassetnoj-boevoj-chastju-poluchila-uvelichennuju-dalnost-porazhenija.html
      4. -2
        25 November 2024 17: 54
        In a real war, aviation will have a great influence, in a war like this, no. Let Russia have hundreds of kr per day, for a month, and aviation would have finished everything, over the battlefield. But someone thinks that there are still brothers there, and we have to live with them.
        1. +2
          25 November 2024 18: 54
          But someone thinks that there are still brothers there, and we have to live with them.


          Are the Chechens your brothers?
  6. +6
    25 November 2024 06: 29
    Not only are ATGMs remotely controlled, although not all of them, but ATGMs, in addition to laser and radio, can also be guided via fiber optics... And this already dramatically increases operator safety and the range of ATGM use. Not only that, it was the ATGM that was forced to develop the KAZ, and the ATGM target for the KAZ is much more difficult than a drone, after modifications, of course. For ease of understanding, a drone can be shot down with a machine gun, but an ATGM cannot!
    Well, a helicopter or an airplane can be quickly transferred to a threatened direction, over significant distances. It was helicopters that largely stopped the breakthrough of the Ukrainian Wehrmacht in the Kursk region.
    But the Su-25's effectiveness has certainly decreased. Only the mass use of 100-250 kg UAB can increase its significance.
    In general, the author of FPV was blinded by the picture... As well as the Lancets. A good picture, no doubt, and good means, but these are means that strengthen the infantry, albeit significantly, and do not at all replace either attack helicopters or assault aircraft.
    1. -2
      25 November 2024 06: 46
      Well, a helicopter or an airplane can be quickly transferred to a threatened direction, over significant distances. It was helicopters that largely stopped the breakthrough of the Ukrainian Wehrmacht in the Kursk region.

      Are you serious? That is, the breakthrough was "cut short"???
      1. +3
        25 November 2024 06: 51
        Quote: Konnick
        Are you serious? That is, the breakthrough was "cut short"???

        And what is the fact that the Ukrainians didn't reach the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant? Not stopping the breakthrough? Sorry, but conscripts and border guards could do little to counteract the first days of the invasion.
        1. -2
          25 November 2024 11: 24
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          What does it mean that the Ukrainians didn’t reach the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant?
          Yes, the chances of reaching the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant are much less than losing Kuyev and its surroundings to...!
          1. +2
            25 November 2024 11: 42
            Quote: vik669
            Yes, the chances of reaching the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant are much less than losing Kuyev and its surroundings to...!

            It became, but it wasn't... And it became, largely due to the work of army aviation. Well, and in the Great Patriotic War, the German and other Nazis were driven out of the territory of the RSFSR on the 1096th day... And what day of the SVO is it now? And against which Nazis?
        2. 0
          25 November 2024 13: 37
          They could have countered with a lot of things.
          Or again, no one is taught, etc. Why couldn’t the army hold back the breakthrough?
          Why do we need such an army?
          Maintain it so that when the enemy comes, he can pass by calmly?
      2. +1
        29 November 2024 17: 06
        And not just "cut off"! Gerasimov then said that the enemy had been thrown back!
        Don't you believe it!? wassat
    2. 0
      25 November 2024 15: 00
      The aircraft must either dump on the front what the barrel artillery or missiles cannot carry there.
      Or hit where the artillery can’t reach.
      So a 100 kg UAB on the front of your rear is not relevant. Tulip and Malka will cope. And flying where the barrel does not reach is more expensive. Su 34 with 1000+ and UMPK. More effective.
      So there is no work for a stormtrooper. There is no routine work.
      1. 0
        26 November 2024 08: 11
        Quote: garri-lin
        So UAB of 100 kg on the front of your rear is not relevant. Tulip and Malka will cope.

        And these systems are left!!! And how many of them are left?! And what about their mobility? And operational mobility?
        Well, a 100 kg bomb is much more filled with explosives than a shell of comparable mass. 203 mm, 18 kg of explosives versus 42 kg of OFAB-100.
        No, the Su-25, given the mass use of hundreds with a conditional UMPK and the ability to drop at least a dozen bombs per sortie from a pitched position at a range of even 20 km, is an excellent solution, a long-term solution.
    3. 0
      25 November 2024 23: 13
      But it turns out that the ATGM (except for the Javelin and Spike) is a much easier target for the KAZ than the FPV
      1. 0
        26 November 2024 08: 24
        Quote: Calm_type
        But it turns out that the ATGM (except for the Javelin and Spike) is a much easier target for the KAZ than the FPV

        And where did you see the KAZ working on ATGMs? Well, and I didn't just write the words "after modification" for no reason. Because to work on FPVs, you need to at least turn the KAZ mortars up, which is not the case.
        1. 0
          26 November 2024 09: 29
          The Kaz is poor in terms of anti-tank weapons, but it works for the Jews. They didn't bring any Kaz to their country. Plus, the same arena ignores targets with a speed of less than 70 m/s.
          1. 0
            26 November 2024 09: 34
            Quote: Calm_type
            According to the ATPU, the Kaz is doing poorly, but it works for the Jews.

            And what about FPV? No way, because there are no applications.
            Quote: Calm_type
            They didn’t deliver the Kazakhs.

            That's exactly it, so where does this idea of ​​an easy target come from?
            Quote: Calm_type
            Plus, the same arena ignores targets with a speed of less than 70 m/s.
            This is achieved by calibration, however, the KAZ schemes are not limited to counter-detonation, machine-gun KAZs were also tested, and besides, the arena is a 30-year-old development...
  7. 0
    25 November 2024 06: 44
    Another cancellation from Skomorokhov, well, this has already been said more than once, what's the point of the same articles? Samsonov's laurels don't let you sleep?
    1. -1
      25 November 2024 08: 06
      What does laurels have to do with it? It seems to me that the problem is deeper!
  8. -2
    25 November 2024 06: 48
    Weapons are not defined by their cost first and foremost. First of all, it is necessary to determine how they cope with their task and the cost of enemy losses from their use.
    1. 0
      25 November 2024 13: 38
      Quote: Yuras_Belarus
      Weapons are not defined by their cost first and foremost. First of all, it is necessary to determine how they cope with their task and the cost of enemy losses from their use.

      In short - efficiency?
  9. BAI
    +3
    25 November 2024 07: 09
    However, helicopters are constantly operating in the SVO zone.
  10. +2
    25 November 2024 07: 13
    It's sad, of course.

    From the incorrect prices of Stingers to Brimstone or Spike with their ranges and "lock-on after launch" - everything went by the wayside.

    About the "historical excursion" - well, it's funny...
  11. +4
    25 November 2024 07: 36
    This is all correct and logical, of course, but it may turn out that the electronic warfare system disables all drones except those on fiber optics, and they have their own limitations. Or a miracle may happen, and normal cannon air defense will appear, taking out any drone with 1-2 shots.
    1. -3
      25 November 2024 07: 50
      Or a miracle might happen and a normal anti-aircraft gun will appear, taking out any drone with 1-2 shots.

      But this wonder weapon will not return attack aviation to its previous form...
      1. 0
        25 November 2024 07: 53
        I don't understand what the problem is with making guided missiles launched from a pitch-up position? The air defense didn't cancel bombers - gliding bombs were quickly completed, but with unguided rockets, a cheap upgrade option should also be made, and then 1 attack aircraft will become more valuable than a swarm of drones.
        1. -1
          25 November 2024 08: 06
          I don't understand what the problem is with making guided missiles that can be launched from a pitch-up position?

          What do you understand here? You need to see the object where to direct it, you can't send it beyond the horizon.
          And why then do you need a reservation on planes and helicopters... unnecessary
          1. -2
            25 November 2024 11: 20
            Quote: Konnick
            What do you understand here? You need to see the object where to direct it, you can't send it beyond the horizon.

            Bombs were dropped from a pitched position before and now. Even throwing them over hills. What is needed is not expensive guided missiles, but inexpensive 100-250 kg with UMPK, which are thrown from a pitched position along a hover trajectory, launching them into flight. The range will be relatively small, but the effect of such "gifts" will be higher than from the NUR series.
          2. 0
            27 November 2024 16: 40
            You need to see the object where to direct it.

            attach a reconnaissance drone to a helicopter?
        2. +2
          25 November 2024 09: 45
          I don't understand what the problem is with making guided missiles launched from a pitch-up position? The air defense didn't cancel bombers - gliding bombs were quickly completed, but with unguided rockets, a cheap upgrade option should also be made, and then 1 attack aircraft will become more valuable than a swarm of drones.

          That's what they do. They convert NUR into guided missiles. They add a control system.
          The control system of the APKWS II rocket is executed in the form of a cylindrical compartment connected to the units of the base rocket. It is noteworthy that the authors of the project decided to execute the guidance system in the form of a block placed not on the head of the rocket, but installed between the warhead and the engine. This arrangement was chosen to protect the laser homing head from the flames and smoke of other missiles or other negative factors.

          https://topwar.ru/64133-upravlyaemaya-raketa-apkws-ii-ssha.html
        3. -1
          25 November 2024 11: 57
          Our attack aircraft and their development are simply a huge no-no. Azerbaijan has added guided weapons systems to its Su-25s, we don't need anything like that. A guided S-13 at a parade won't impress anyone, and the money saved can be spent on a mansion
        4. +2
          25 November 2024 13: 40
          They don't want to. It's probably too expensive. The Americans have a system for nuros (becoming controlled).
          On VO there was an article with pictures.
        5. 0
          26 November 2024 18: 15
          I don't understand what the problem is with making guided missiles that can be launched from a pitch-up position?

          And who said that there is no such thing? Guided weapons are also dropped from a pitched position.
          The problem is in the type of guidance. A pitched strike either does not allow the target to be seen or gives a very short period of time to visually find the target. If the target coordinates are known in advance, it is possible to drop weapons with optical guidance. Navigation guidance does not have any problems with this, as does homing weapons, which search for a suitable target in a predetermined area. Laser, of course, is not applicable, only through an "intermediary". And here the problem is in the dimensions of the unguided rocket; it is irrationally expensive to stick a smart head into a small-caliber unguided rocket. There are unguided rockets with laser guidance, the same American Hydras.
          But the author confuses warm with soft. A NAR strike is an area strike, a massive strike in a short period of time, at once, against area, lightly armored or completely unprotected targets. It is possible to make high-precision ones. When the author comes up with a way to make drones similar to MLRS capabilities, especially highly mobile ones like the Su-25, then we will talk
  12. +2
    25 November 2024 07: 47
    Yes, war brings strong adjustments, after it ends, much will be revised, both tactics and technology, this is evolution.
    1. 0
      26 November 2024 02: 39
      Much will be revised based on the results of THIS war, and the next one will be completely different. And we are in felt boots.
  13. +1
    25 November 2024 07: 55
    A small clarification: the navigation school mentioned in the article is correctly called ChVVAKUSH, not ChVAKUSH, such a designation does not exist.
    Now the school is a branch of the Zhukovsky Academy and has a rather complicated name, but it remained ChVVAKUSH as it was, and is currently experiencing a real boom.
  14. +2
    25 November 2024 08: 14
    History usually moves in a spiral, and many weapons written off by experts often return in the most unusual roles. And the stupidest thing is to forget about these weapons, stop developing them, and then find yourself in a position of catching up, proving at the same time that Mosin rifles are the best weapons and will give odds to modern analogues...
  15. +2
    25 November 2024 09: 36
    Tank... not afraid of practically any natural obstacles...

    Swamp, forest, river... And not all the ravines are passable. The introduction is so-so)

    In 1944, only the very sad-headed Rudel flew the Ju.87G, while the other pilots preferred to switch to the FW.190…

    Rudel also switched to the FW-1944 in June 190.
  16. fiv
    +3
    25 November 2024 09: 56
    Drawing global conclusions on weapons systems and their use based on a local and rather specific conflict is wrong. As usual, an overblown article of dubious value.
  17. +1
    25 November 2024 10: 54
    For the price of one Ka-52, you can build 60 tanks, which will cost 360 million dollars.

    Here they forgot to calculate that it is not the helicopter itself that “hits” the tanks, but rather that it fires missiles, which also “don’t cost pennies.” Yes
    Plus the cost of training pilots, aircraft technicians, gunsmiths, aircraft engineers, as well as logistical support (fuel and lubricants, airfield infrastructure and equipment), and much, much more.
    Maintaining a helicopter is very expensive. sad
  18. 0
    25 November 2024 11: 03
    But what else should we do if cheap drones are actually more effective in terms of combating enemy equipment than multi-million dollar flying combat vehicles?
    Just don't get ahead of yourself. On the one hand, the age of radio-controlled drones will soon be over - there are already means of destroying them on the way, on the other hand, homing munitions (missiles, gliding bombs) to destroy everything on the front line need to be delivered to the front line by someone. In this regard, aviation is much more dynamic than ground-based means. As for the flight crew, such tasks can be performed by unmanned vehicles.
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. +2
    25 November 2024 11: 51
    Install normal onboard defense systems on planes and helicopters, and not just those discussed in the article, and everything will fall into place. If you don't have your own, take them from the Belarusians, they have long since perfected them!
  21. +2
    25 November 2024 11: 55
    What can I say, you can't even compare it to an ATGM operator. A simple comparison:
    1st generation, wire control. You shoot, unmask yourself, but you sit and work the joystick, aiming the missile.
    2nd generation, laser. This is a total boredom for the operator, not only does the shot give away the camouflage, but the tank can easily detect the laser radiation and fire somewhere there...
    3rd generation, IR guidance. Yes, good, fired and didn't forget, but ran very fast. There are chances for survival.

    Everything is at point blank range. In position, as they say.

    As I understand it, the author judges ATGMs based on domestic systems and NATO battlefield ATGMs?
    Otherwise, it is unclear where the Spike went with its tens of kilometers of range and seeker, which allows searching for and capturing a target after launch.
  22. +3
    25 November 2024 12: 08
    The very first impression of the article.



    Now in detail.
    To judge the effectiveness of SHA and AA, at least two things are needed:
    1. So that there would be these very SHA and AA.
    2. Be an expert in the given topic.

    In this case, there is neither one nor the other. A person far removed from the essence of the issue is discussing something that does not exist.
    And in order not to become like him (even though I understand SHA much better than he does), I will focus on AA.
    So, this very AA (army aviation, if anyone didn’t understand) does not exist in the Russian Federation.
    This can be safely stated for the simple reason that it cannot cope with the tasks facing it due to its small numbers.
    The USSR had about 7 helicopters. And if we draw an analogy by population, then the Russian Federation should have no less than 200.
    But the USSR, according to the statements of the Supreme Leader, is a country of galoshes, and the Russian Federation is a superpower (at least, he spoke about an energy superpower), which means there should be no less than 5.
    However, at the beginning of the SVO there were slightly more than 1300 helicopters of all types in service. And no growth in numbers has been noticed; at best, losses are being replenished.
    This is enough to hold parades and demonstration exercises, but it is clearly not enough for the entire territory of the Russian Federation.

    I don’t know how much was allocated for the SVO, but it’s clear that it was much less than the USSR allocated to Afghanistan.
    Hence the "Trishka's coat" effect. The command, trying to cover all directions with available forces, trampling on tactics, disperses them, which reduces efficiency and increases losses.
    After all, in most cases, attack helicopters operate in pairs. At the same time, electronic warfare is not performed, enemy air defense is not suppressed, air defense is not provided, and there is no interaction with ground forces.
    Here, the author of the article stated:
    I don't know how much one 9M-127-1 missile costs, but it's much more than a battery-powered ground beetle with an RPG-7 warhead attached with electrical tape. But the essence is the same.

    The point is not even that the popular saying on the topic is more appropriate here: what's the difference, one...
    All these "ground beetles" in most cases only tickle, the warhead is too weak, and if the target is covered by screens, then nothing at all, the kinetic energy is too low.
    But the main thing is that these ATGMs themselves simply aren't available in sufficient numbers. Helicopters take off with four, two, or even none at all.
    Plus another fact, the crews are not trained in dynamic launches. They copy Western tactics, hover for launches, which again increases losses.
    So what can a couple of cars do in this situation? Just sneak up on the PMV, then spit the NRS with a pitching up, - in that direction.
    It is clear that such “support” is of little use to the ground forces; it is simply an imitation of it.
    Hence this “superiority” of UAVs, where victory is due to the absence of the enemy.
    At the same time, supporters of replacing frontline aviation with UAVs forget that two important criteria for an air strike are massing and efficiency. UAVs cannot provide either.

    In fact, we have been observing the result of the absence of AA for several months in the Kursk region. The absence of helicopters and, as a consequence, there is no mobility or fire support.

    What are the main "arguments" of opponents of AA? Ineffective, but this has been sorted out (because it does not exist), air defense and in particular MANPADS, and the "pricelessness" of pilots' lives.

    So, in the presence of a front line, to declare that AA cannot operate due to the enemy having air defense systems, and in particular MANPADS, is to declare a complete lack of professionalism.
    During the Soviet era, the AA gained a lot of experience in combat operations even over hostile territory, when MANPADS can arrive immediately after takeoff. And when there is a front line, these are practically training ground conditions for combat helicopters. Working with WWI and the presence of MANPADS behind the front line can be ignored.
    But it seems that the command of the Russian Armed Forces has its own path.

    Now about the “pricelessness” of the pilots’ lives.
    During the Great Patriotic War, the losses of Soviet Air Force flight personnel amounted to about 30. Is this a lot or a little?
    If we judge by all the combat losses of the army, about 8, then this is in the category of error.
    But a completely natural question is how much could the army's losses have increased if the pilots had started to take care of their lives?
    Yes, training a pilot is expensive, but compared to human life, it is an insignificant part.
    And in strategic terms, the loss of even two young guys from the infantry is much more painful for the country than one pilot. Because these guys will not return to the economy after the war, they will not leave heirs.
    And with a loss ratio of 1:300, talking about the "pricelessness" of the flight crew is cynical and criminal. Especially about the money that our state has legally donated to the West in an unimaginable amount.
    What can I say, the money that the Ministry of Defense stole would have been enough for 10 helicopters.

    So where do these songs about the uselessness of helicopters and how UAVs are our everything come from?
    Yes, it's simple, we have capitalism. Which is interested in only one thing, profit. And if the deaths of soldiers bring in a good income, then the capitalist will send them to the slaughter without a second thought. We went through this during the first Chechen war.
    And in this paradigm, UAVs are like that type of weapons, the production costs of which are minimal, and the price is quite reasonable. That is, the difference between investments and price is greater than in the production of helicopters.
    And what about combat effectiveness? The capitalist will remember about it only if the competitor offers something better.
  23. +1
    25 November 2024 12: 16
    The author misses such a paradox - everything is developing everywhere - missiles, drones, even radar is being installed on Zushkas. And only attack aircraft and helicopters are equipped with weapons developed more than 30 years ago and are surprised by something. The advantage is that it is the army that is fighting, not individual units of equipment. It has always been ineffective to fight head-on against the enemy's defense with attack aircraft. A competent command should find a weak spot and put pressure there, and then send significant forces there. And it is easy as pie to transfer helicopters to another spot. However, in our country they fly on request of units evenly distributed along the front line, of course there is little benefit from this. Lmurs work mostly against various PVDs and apparently replace red-field ones.

    Separately, we can say about the cost. In 2015, the Vikhr cost about 6 million rubles. And here the question arises in all its glory - and if our industry started to make FPV drones from scratch, would they cost less than 6 million? I doubt it. And if a host of factories in Asia, currently producing drones, set a goal to fill the world with Vikhr, would they cost as much as an apartment in Moscow, or maybe 50 thousand rubles apiece? The prices of military products look prohibitive when compared to civilian ones, hypercars are equipped with 2 thousand horsepower engines, everything is filled with electronics, and they cost little compared to a tank, although there are also limited series and most of the money goes to all sorts of show-offs and designers.
  24. 0
    25 November 2024 13: 36
    if cheap drones are really more effective in terms of combating enemy equipment than multi-million dollar flying combat vehicles
    Yeah, after all, fighting is quite expensive, a lot of things cost a lot of money.
  25. 0
    25 November 2024 13: 46
    Quote from alexoff
    And if a host of factories in Asia, currently producing drones, set out to fill the world with whirlwinds, would they cost as much as an apartment in Moscow, or maybe 50 thousand rubles each?


    No, they would not be worth it, definitely. They are not worth it anywhere. And military equipment in any case was and will be more expensive than civilian products everywhere.
    Let's take China for example. Well, that's where this "host of factories" is. So what? Do you think specialized military equipment costs the PLA pennies or cents? No, it's not cheap either. And drones for 50 thousand rubles - only civilian, forcibly mobilized ones. And analogues of "lancets" are not pennies everywhere and will be, even if the circulation goes to millions.
  26. 0
    25 November 2024 15: 41
    The electronic warfare will change, the firing range of the Vikhr missiles will increase, decoys and false targets will appear. It is too early to write them off, tanks as offensive weapons have already been written off a couple of times.
  27. VlK
    +1
    25 November 2024 16: 16
    What will be the effectiveness of loitering munitions or copters with a drop in conditions of the absence of reconnaissance and external target designation due to the suppression of the communication system - the question, of course, is interesting ... Probably, therefore, the presence of strike platforms, controlled directly by a person, will be relevant for quite a long time. Although it is obvious that in modern conditions both manned vehicles and UAVs should be only elements of reconnaissance and strike complexes, sometimes interchangeable.
    In general, of course, IMHO, the need for a series of review articles on modern drones, reconnaissance and strike, their classes, performance characteristics, communication and control systems, and capabilities has LONG BEEN AGAINST VO. Starting from the simplest copters to strategic reconnaissance UAVs, including the X-37 orbital aircraft. Preferably, of course, strictly technical in nature, without jingoistic excesses in assessments. Purely to create an idea of ​​the subject as a whole at the present moment. Perhaps the site administration will see this wish.
  28. -1
    25 November 2024 16: 25
    And to Gostomel on a drone on horseback? Now the concept of the Airborne Forces is changing to helicopter landing.
  29. +1
    25 November 2024 16: 42
    Su-25 and Mi-28 – all of them, into history?

    some time ago, an article about MiG fighters was posted here, with approximately the same content...
    Unfortunately, back then, almost everyone agreed that we have Su and we don’t need any MiG...
    but a little time passed and the MiG - a carrier of ballistic missiles...
    the same here - time will pass and the essence of the indicated technique will be rethought...
  30. +1
    25 November 2024 16: 44
    The author's free handling of technology is amusing, although he writes easily.... bully
    "armor-piercing shells for land artillery were not invented due to the lack of targets for them, grenades existed exclusively in the fragmentation version, so the only means of disabling a tank were mines,"
    Author - even at the Kakhovka bridgehead, the Red Army artillery fired at tanks with shrapnel set to strike... and even during the Great Patriotic War:
    "In the initial period of the war, due to the shortage of armor-piercing shells against armored targets, shrapnel was often used, placed "on impact." The armor penetration of such "ersatz armor-piercing" ammunition was about 30 mm at close combat distances." hi
    "uncovering the MANPADS and gently stroking the tanks with liquid nitrogen,"
    yeah, it would be good for the author to read about cooling systems, about thermodynamic cycles request
  31. 0
    25 November 2024 16: 52
    I read in G.K. Zhukov's memoirs that in two (2) MONTHS of fighting for Berlin, we lost about 800 units of armored vehicles. And during the entire Great Patriotic War, we produced more than 100 pieces of armored vehicles. And how many of them remained in service by the end of the war? Question. This is about camels and horses.
  32. +1
    25 November 2024 17: 30
    I have already lost count of the types of weapons "buried" by Skomorokhov.
    This whole bacchanal with the burial of conventional weapons systems by drones reminds me very much of "Khrushchev's missile fever". Then they also thought to replace everything with missiles, and then, out of breath, they had to catch up on the lost decade in the development of traditional weapons. Missiles were also supposed to replace tube artillery, and look how it turned out.
  33. DO
    0
    25 November 2024 17: 31
    This is a direct contact aircraft /*attack aircraft Su-25*/. Yes, we have seen this stupidity - launching NURSs from a pitched position.

    But what if instead of NURS there are autonomous kamikaze drones, for example, Lancets, and instead of a manned attack aircraft - an unmanned highly maneuverable jet aircraft the size of an attack aircraft?
    1. 0
      25 November 2024 22: 35
      The fact is that in the first half of this year Ukrainians one million FPV drones were delivered to the troops. This allows them to saturate literally all units and subdivisions along the LBS. Well, then why drive a jet carrier back and forth?
      1. DO
        0
        25 November 2024 22: 50
        Calm_type, the Russian jet carrier of autonomous drones is needed so that as few drones, other weapons and reinforcements as possible reach the LBS from the deep rear of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
        1. 0
          25 November 2024 22: 59
          There is a revelation for this. And for otrk we need reconnaissance. And we're talking about FPV, attack aircraft, helicopters - the cutting edge
          1. DO
            0
            25 November 2024 23: 28
            Calm_type, it is clear that a manned attack aircraft has nothing special to do on the LBS today.
            I am talking about the work on the rear logistics of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Tactical missiles can only work on stationary targets. And autonomous drones (for example, Lancets) - on mobile targets. For example, on trains during a run, on military vehicles on the roads, on columns on the march. However, they do not fly far, they need to be delivered to the deep rear by an external carrier.
            1. 0
              26 November 2024 09: 25
              The same Heimars worked perfectly on warehouses in the frontline zone. And even on columns. It's all about online reconnaissance and tsu
              1. DO
                0
                26 November 2024 12: 36
                Quote: Calm_type
                It's all about online intelligence and tsu

                That's right. For the Russian Armed Forces, this is a problem for the deep rear of the enemy. Autonomous kamikaze drones can reduce the severity of this problem, because they have built-in "additional reconnaissance" means in real time - these drones only need to be delivered to the area of ​​approximate/predicted coordinates of targets, including moving ones. And then, for example, Lancets independently search for targets by their optical and/or thermal images in memory, select a priority target and attack it, with the option of distributing targets between the drones of the swarm.
  34. +1
    25 November 2024 18: 09
    At the heart of all this "drone red tape" is the mass production "in Asia))" of brushless motors, lithium-ion batteries and video cameras. All these things have their limitations - for example, any battery is 10 times inferior in energy capacity to organic fuel (1 MJ per 1 kg versus 10 MJ per 1 kg), in addition, there is the electronic warfare factor ... at first, electronic warfare was incredibly overestimated, and now it is underestimated, but the fact remains - drones need a radio range to operate, and it is not infinite (otherwise, cellular companies would not compete with each other, and would not pay huge amounts of money for frequency bands, would not invent FDMA / TDMA / CDMA) - therefore, if there are 1000 "electronic warfare drones" in the offensive zone, most likely any enemy drones will simply fall. I will express an extremely unpopular point of view - but all our and "their" problems are of a banal organizational nature - well, there are no good-level commanders.
    1. DO
      0
      25 November 2024 22: 16
      Quote: Dmitry Eon
      the fact remains that drones need a radio range to operate, and it is not infinite

      You forget that on the LBS SVO on both sides there are more and more fiber-optic controlled drones and autonomous drones with advanced electronics.
  35. +1
    25 November 2024 18: 39
    This debate will die down as soon as some "Arena" appears that shoots down drones as they approach a tank/helicopter/airplane. And judging by how much effort is currently being spent on this development, it won't take long to wait. This is inevitable, since progress cannot be stopped. And then again in a circle, instead of drones a new nasty thing will appear whose appearance has begun to manifest itself.
  36. 0
    25 November 2024 20: 54
    In the USSR, there were military institutions whose task was to analyze military conflicts around the world. What they fight with. What is used and how successfully. Based on this data, information was issued on what military equipment would be needed in future wars. But with the collapse of the USSR, all this was curtailed.
  37. 0
    25 November 2024 22: 15
    again a wide-format specialist. The tanks have already been buried, as well as the self-propelled guns, but the history of the operation puts everything in its place.
  38. 0
    25 November 2024 22: 28
    the author forgets how tanks equipped with barbecues can withstand more than one drone hit. There is a video where our abandoned T72 even without a barbecue withstood nine hits from PF drones. More powerful lancets also cost a pretty penny. So the best combination of guaranteed tank destruction is when a PF drone immobilizes a tank, but Krasnopol is guaranteed to destroy a tank; a barbecue is no obstacle for it
  39. 0
    25 November 2024 23: 16
    ..first a note..GAU-8 Avenger, it seems not 6- and but 7-barreled no???..secondly the problem of all frontline aviation is..enemy communications..yes the same StarLink allows you to see the battlefield (what one has detected, everyone sees...and of course they are preparing MANPADS or ZU with FPV, which are also controlled by StarLink..)..as for the SAMs, here too NATO ears are visible..in addition to the network connecting individual SAMs into a SYSTEM allowing one to shoot at the target designations of others (+AWACS somewhere over Poland or Romania and a GlobalHawk hangs over the Black Sea at rest)..but our Armed Forces do not fight with this (from the word absolutely_the only UAV driven into a tailspin in 1000 days is...what is it there..it is some kind of shame..)..where are our HARM_analogues against Radars...our airborne forces are sitting at 0 and not fighting in the rear of the Ukrainians (everyone remembers that there is no special attention in the Zone)..and where are our sabotage and reconnaissance groups then? But the Alliance in the war against Iraq to gain air superiority (in the first days) threw everything...and Apaches and sabotage and reconnaissance groups and strategists with JDAM & HARM...they suppressed the air defense and that's it...they simply did not allow reserves to be brought up...
    Of course, on the 1000th day it is difficult to do what you had to start with, but... I assure you that it is worth removing the component "stable communication (and therefore guidance)" from the equations, as the situation on the LBS will become the same as in the same Syria... well, something like that
    1. 0
      26 November 2024 09: 28
      A small note - the exchange of information in real time (what one sees, everyone sees) is not starlink, but link 16.
  40. 0
    26 November 2024 11: 26
    How much does Ka52 cost? Maybe you can drop the price by half?
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. 0
    27 November 2024 13: 36
    Quote: VlK
    What will be the effectiveness of loitering munitions or copters with airdrops in the absence of reconnaissance and external target designation due to the suppression of the communication system is, of course, an interesting question...


    Drones with AI are already being developed, which will search for and identify targets themselves. And the connection can be different, not necessarily radio... It can be via fiber optics, and lidars (laser communication) are on the way.
    1. 0
      27 November 2024 22: 56
      lidars (laser communication)


      This type of communication has been used for a long time - the same as a TV remote control, but for it to work, greenhouse conditions are needed - 1. direct visibility, 2. clean air without dust, fog or rain, I think the military will not like it if the connection drops due to rain/fog/dust

      AI drones


      Earthlings are as far from AI as they are from the moon on foot, neural networks, but that is also for greenhouse conditions, usually a computer is needed for it, which takes up 300 cubic meters, this is a drone the size of three Boeings, in short, the military will not like it

      Possible via fiber optics

      And who will pull fiber optics across the battlefield? And why won't our tank or bomb damage his enemy? It's already more interesting and the military uses it to a limited extent, but it won't solve the problem completely.
  43. 0
    27 November 2024 13: 39
    Quote: Calm_type
    This allows them to saturate literally all units and subdivisions along the LBS. Well, then why drive a rocket carrier back and forth?


    And should we take into account the power of the ammunition? Even "Baba Yaga" is not capable of carrying ammunition capable of hitting well-fortified targets. A KAB or a regular "cast iron" weighing a ton with a planning module can destroy an object that even a hundred kamikaze drones would not cause damage to.
  44. 0
    28 November 2024 13: 41
    Quote: t7310
    This type of connection has been used for a long time - the same TV remote control


    The TV remote does not use a laser, it is just IR.

    Quote: t7310
    Earthlings are as far from AI as they are from the moon on foot


    No, this is already a reality and the near future.

    Quote: t7310
    And who will pull the fiber optic cable across the battlefield?


    The UAV itself (a spool of fiber several kilometers long). Already used in this conflict
    1. 0
      29 November 2024 14: 23
      I noticed the answer completely by accident. If anything, there is a reply button for answers.
      So how did it all start?
      in the absence of reconnaissance and external target designation due to the suppression of the communication system - the question is, of course, interesting... Probably, therefore, the presence of strike platforms controlled directly by a person will be relevant for quite a long time


      You answered that robots with AI, for which they will invent laser communication, will fill the entire planet and will drag fiber optics along with them, well, so what, considering that AI is dumb and laser communication only works in good weather and direct visibility, then fiber optics will definitely come in handy, right?


      This type of connection has been used for a long time - the same TV remote control



      The TV remote does not use a laser, it is just IR.


      And what is IR? It is a light source like a laser, have you even looked at the history of lidar in Wikipedia?

      The acronym LIDAR first appeared in Middleton and Spilhaus's 1953 paper "Meteorological Instruments," long before lasers were invented.[6] Early lidars used flashlamps or flashbulbs as light sources.


      I'm too lazy to look for it, but in the 70s and 80s, using a laser and lidar, there was communication with a satellite where there was also a laser and lidar, and now it is used in some places for communication with satellites, but in a limited way because good weather is needed for the laser beam to reach the satellite. Why a laser and not a radio? Because the laser signal will reach the satellite faster and this is relevant for space distances, and if the radius is hundreds of kilometers, then the radio speed is quite sufficient. It can also be useful if you unexpectedly completely block all frequencies in good weather. Then such communication can be used at least until the enemy guesses to fire smoke shells and it will not work for soldiers because there is dust and no direct visibility in a trench or in a room..., for some stationary communication points... but once again - the light source can be any and such communication has been used since the fifties, if not earlier.

      and you say it is being developed... and they have been developed since 1900 +-, here is the 1927 film Metropolis, and only recently have they received neural networks in which there is no intelligence, maybe they can perform some functions of intelligence, but in general they are very, very stupid, and this is about neurons that occupy 300 cubic meters and consume a significant part of the electricity of the nearest nuclear power plant, NVIDIA has some neurochips measuring 10x10x2 +- cm, but will they be enough for these tasks? In addition, NVIDIA is a pro-Western company, and even the Americans do not mass-produce such technology, but all this is not intelligence and with great difficulty, with reservations and difficulties, it is enough for recognition and destruction, so there is no serial production, and until it appears, more than one generation of human-controlled platforms will change

      well and a UAV on fiber optics, how many km of optics are in a coil? and compare with the range of human-controlled platforms, will one complement the other and will be both
  45. 0
    28 November 2024 18: 14
    We just need to develop new weapons, Anya write off the equipment, and by the way, onboard defense systems perfectly protect our helicopters from MANPADS. Here is the izd.350 with a range of 25 km, they will develop a UAV with a range of 40-50 km, the navigator operator will control it at this distance, he does not need to hide, encrypt, the helicopter is capable of taking 2000 tons of combat load. And what efficiency, it is possible to create a flying company of UAVs within half an hour within a radius of 300 km.. so it is too early to write off helicopters, they have potential. The Americans are already trying to put UAVs on the Apaches.
  46. +1
    29 November 2024 00: 23
    The article is globally correct. But there are many inaccuracies and controversial judgments in small details.

    1. The PTABs showed maximum effectiveness at the time of first use.
    2. The Americans never got around to protecting their armored vehicles...
    And what about the Volcanoes on M113? Equivalent to the Shilka.
    3. The Su-34 is capable of launching the UMPK from its territory, and the operator will guide the bomb to the desired location with virtually no effort...
    What operator is this and what does it have to do with it?

    4. Actually, the Su-25 has already been sentenced: it is being replaced by the Su-34, which can iron out the enemy's front line of defense, but do so from absolutely safe distances. And the UMPKs will be more accurate than the Su-25's NURS and bombs, everyone understands that.

    The aircraft, when using the UMPK, is just a platform. And the Su-25 could become such a platform with minimal modifications. Which is significantly cheaper than using the Su-34. Apparently, the military is not interested in this.
  47. 0
    29 November 2024 17: 07
    Are you serious? That is, the breakthrough was "cut short"???

    And not just "cut off"! Gerasimov then said that the enemy had been thrown back!
    Don't you believe it!? wassat
  48. 0
    30 November 2024 08: 53
    Quote: t7310
    You answered that robots with AI, for which they will invent laser communication, will fill the entire planet and will drag fiber optics along with them, well, so what, considering that AI is dumb and laser communication only works in good weather and direct visibility, then fiber optics will definitely come in handy, right?


    I didn't say that, no need to distort things.
    Laser communication is for large attack drones that operate at significant altitudes, and laser is for satellite control. At high altitudes, there is little interference for lasers, and the data transfer rate for lasers is higher than in the radio range.

    Optical fiber - for small drones, the same quadcopters. It already works.

    Quote: t7310
    And what is IR? It is a light source like a laser, have you even looked at the history of lidar in Wikipedia?


    IR is definitely not a laser. It's just data transmission in the infrared range.
    And a regular flashlight is also a source of light. A laser is not just a source of light.

    Quote: t7310
    Why laser and not radio? Because the laser signal will reach the satellite faster and for space distances it is relevant


    Light and radio waves have the same speed. It looks like you successfully passed the school physics course... past, down the hall. laughing

    Quote: t7310
    and only recently have we received neural networks in which there is no intelligence, maybe they can perform some functions of intelligence, but in general they are very, very dumb, and this is about neurons that occupy 300 cubic meters and consume a significant portion of electricity


    Most combat missions don't require a lot of computing power. A wasp or a mosquito has a small brain, but it's enough to hunt and attack.

    You can read more about it here
    https://habr.com/ru/articles/768202/
  49. +2
    30 November 2024 22: 41
    The article is complete nonsense. Everything is mixed up and jumbled. For starters, the Ka-52 is no better in survivability than the Su-25 or Mi-28. Let me remind you again and again that at the beginning of the SVO it was shot down to hell by a MANPADS hit in the PYLON! Not in the engine, not in the cockpit, in the PYLON! Therefore, there is no need to make a wonder weapon out of it - it is no more than a Mi-28 on a coaxial configuration.
    Now I repeat 10 times. Both Vikhr and Ataka fly much further than 5-6 kilometers. And 7, 8 and further. The problem is not in firing a missile over the horizon. The problem is in FINDING and RECOGNIZING the TARGET! Why are you Skomorokhovs so slow-witted? You can't just fire missiles somewhere. You need to confidently RECOGNIZE the target. And now there is only ONE reliable way - the eyes of the OPERATOR! There is no AI in nature and there will not be, and the machine vision system can only separate a large vehicle such as a "tank" from a vehicle such as an "SUV". But it cannot and will not be able to distinguish a T-72 from a T-64 or a Leopard. Therefore, in the coming decades BEFORE firing even under your nose, even at 10 kilometers, the operator must be able to see and recognize the target. And it is precisely THIS - the distance of image transmission that limits the range of the ATGM. And it makes no difference whether Vikhr can fly 10 kilometers or not. Until one of the crew members identifies the target in the targeting and navigation system, there will be no launch. And the operating range of the PNK for the Mi-28 and Ka-52 is the same, 5 km. And even if you hang a 52th Caliber on the Ka-14, it still won’t fire anywhere beyond 5 kilometers.

    Another issue is the change in the concept of the attack manned aircraft and its weapons. Previously, the "visual organs" of the weapons system were located on the helicopter, and the missile was simply a remotely controlled command receiver. In the 70s, at least in the USSR, they tried to change the concept of the missile to a "flying TV camera". But for the Mi-28, the military chose the "classic scheme" with cameras on the helicopter. Now, for the Mi-28M, they have made the Product-305, a video signal repeater missile, which solves the problem of the vehicle's remoteness, since it carries a camera on board.
    But still, the "picture" needs to be transmitted to a human operator and here the question of CONFIDENT transmission of the stream from the camera and commands arises. That is, COMMUNICATION. And you can hang anything on the Ka-52, even an intercontinental missile, but it will only work at a distance confident communications. If we are talking about a guided missile weapon of the "fire and hit" concept and an INDEPENDENT combat vehicle. And not a semi-independent nonsense that requires two more target designation and relay helicopters and a platoon of suicide scouts behind the front line.
    This is the concept that modern close support aircraft, attack aircraft and attack helicopters implement. These machines can independently solve a task, for example, emergency fire support for surrounded infantry. And massive support. And not throwing one grenade 20 kilometers.
    Drones have their niche, and missile-carrying aircraft have theirs. And they do not replace, but complement each other. Just as systems of barrel and rocket artillery, tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled guns, coastal anti-ship systems and combat ships, submarine-launched ICBMs, strategic aviation aircraft and the Strategic Missile Forces do not replace each other.

    Now everyone is literally crazy about drones. Just like in the 50s they were crazy about missiles. But there is NO such thing as a wonder weapon. And drones are not it. They have many shortcomings. They are slow, vulnerable and require constant contact with the operator. And they are not universal. They supplement the firepower of the ground army, but do not replace combat aviation.
    And firing NURS is not stupidity or foolishness, not the last century and not a waste of ammunition. There are AREA targets, for example, dispersed infantry. And you won't hit them with any kamikaze drone.
  50. 0
    2 December 2024 08: 21
    The Americans never got around to protecting their armored vehicles. Stingers on jeeps appeared much later.

    Those stupid Americans didn't even think of making an m163.
  51. 0
    Yesterday, 12: 39
    I don't know why the author delved into the history of the Second World War...
    However, facts are stubborn things - during Operation Rumyantsev, it was aviation that stopped the Soviet tank units and the losses from air strikes were so great that they were worth the attention of headquarters.
    As for the current state, the future of aviation is in completely unmanned vehicles, the war clearly showed that we need a lot of cheap aircraft. And the expensive ones can be considered as battleships of the First World War in the Russian Empire. A lot of money, little benefit
  52. 0
    Yesterday, 23: 47
    How many years have I not looked at VO and then suddenly there is an article with a bright yellow title. I scroll down, sure enough, the author is still the same armchair analyst! And a bunch of the same, like him, far from LBS and the "described" technology fans! Well, gentlemen, how did I pass by the entrance bench with grannies, listen to the "analytics" with deep "conclusions". winked