Collectivization: What are they trying to hide from us?

233
Collectivization: What are they trying to hide from us?
Once upon a time, MTS were completely new, just built.


Now it's time to talk about scope and scale. Stalin's plan for the radical restructuring of agriculture, undertaken with the beginning of total collectivization in 1930. In my opinion, this entire zealous and passionate campaign to denigrate Stalin and his agrarian program, all sorts of hand-wringing on the topic of the “harsh drama of the people” pursues the goal of concealing precisely this scale and scope, and concealing it in such a way that no one remembers or even guesses that such a thing happened. Because the presence or absence of this fact in stories Russia is radically changing its understanding of this very history, of the possibilities and potential of the people and the state.



So, what are they trying to hide from us?

First, some well-known statistics.

Organization


Collective farms. In 1929 there were 57 thousand, in 1934 there were 233,3 thousand. 176,3 thousand new collective farms were created. At the same time, 23,7% of collective farms were formed in 1930, and 40,6% in 1931. In other words, 64% of collective farms were created in just two years.

Machine and tractor stations (MTS). In 1929 there were none, in 1930 1400 were created, in 1934 – 3533.

State farms. In 1929 there were 3042. At their peak in 1931 there were 5383, and in 1934 there were 4742. 1700 new state farms were created and continued to operate compared to 1929.

Tractorization


Collective farms. In 1929, there were 26,2 thousand tractors in collective farms, in 1930 there were 44,3 thousand, and in 1934 - 185,1 thousand. Thus, although the balance, of course, is inaccurate, collective farms received 158,9 thousand tractors during the years of collectivization. This refers to the tractors that were on the balance sheet of the collective farms themselves.

MTS. In 1929 there were none. In 1930 there were 31,1 thousand tractors, in 1934 there were 177,3 thousand tractors. MTS served collective farms that did not have their own equipment. In 1931, MTS served 51,7 thousand collective farms or 37,1% of their number, and in 1934 - 107 thousand collective farms or 63% of their number.

Thus, for collectivization, collective farms received a total of 336,2 thousand tractors, which they could use themselves or rent. Plus, we need to add to them 15,2 thousand combines and 19,5 thousand trucks in the MTS in 1934.

State farms. In 1929 there were 9,7 thousand tractors. In 1934 — 82,7 thousand tractors.

Interesting statistics are that collective farms had twice as many tractors of their own as state farms, and collective farms had almost exactly four times as many tractors as state farms. The surprising conclusion is that tractorization primarily envisaged the provision of tractors to collective farms, i.e., collectivized peasants.

Land management


During collectivization, land in the USSR, especially in grain-growing regions, was re-divided in the most radical way.
In total, the land fund in the USSR amounted to 2206,8 million hectares, including 223,9 million hectares of arable land, 53,2 million hectares of hayfields and 344 million hectares of pastures, both used and unused. There was a special term for unused arable land - arable.


Land surveying was carried out using the simplest and most accessible means.

In 1934, the collective farm-peasant sector used 441,4 million hectares, and state farms - 84,2 million hectares.

In 1930, according to the land management plan accompanying collectivization and the creation of state farms, it was planned to allocate 31 million hectares to state farms by land allocation and 12,5 million hectares by internal land management. In the same year, collective farms were allocated 92,5 million hectares by land indication and 27 million hectares by in-depth land management. In just one year, 31% of the used agricultural lands were re-marked. In subsequent years, large-scale land management work was also carried out with the redistribution of land between collective farms and state farms.

During land management work, individual peasant "strips" were mercilessly destroyed, and the lands were reduced to large plots suitable for tractor cultivation. In 1934, the average kolkhoz had 1891 hectares (including 452 hectares of crops), while the average state farm had 17,7 thousand hectares (including 2973 hectares of crops). At the same time, improved crop rotation with grassland and row crops was often introduced, that is, the structure of field cultivation was radically changed.


Peasant "strips" plagued land surveyors even before the revolution. Here is an example of the original peasant division of land.


The same lands after land management. During collectivization, land management was carried out in a similar way, only much larger plots were allocated for collective and state farms.


There must be a big map


Are these numbers not making your eyes water? The plan for reorganizing agriculture on a national scale, which included collectivization, was so grandiose that it is difficult to grasp even in general terms. And they implemented it in a very short time.

The overthrowers can make fun of the collective farms or criticize them as much as they want. Let them try to create at least one collective farm that would survive until the next harvest. And they created them by the thousands.

The detractors keep quiet about the MTS, because they understand that it is difficult to organize an enterprise in an almost open field, in which there are on average 50 tractors, to provide them with personnel, fuel and lubricants, spare parts, repairs, to build premises, and also to organize field work. But they created 3,5 thousand such enterprises.


Workshop in MTS. Even if it's like this, it's needed.

Land management is not mentioned at all by the overthrowers, which is understandable. It is difficult to go around 525 million hectares, let alone survey them with the primitive means available at that time, like a land compass, a typical surveyor's tool. But they surveyed them. They can say that there was a General Survey according to the manifesto of Empress Catherine II from September 19, 1765. This is also a great achievement, but we must remember that this surveying took a hundred years.

Finally, state farms. Before this whole epic began, it was impossible to even imagine a farm of 100, 200, 300-500 thousand hectares. The state farm plan failed to a large extent due to a lack of resources, but the scale there was difficult to imagine as grandiose.

Moreover, all of the above was done simultaneously and in a very short time. I came to the conclusion that the implementation of such a large-scale program for the reorganization of agriculture was impossible without a preliminary plan drawn up and drawn on a map. On a ten-verst map (ten versts to an inch or 4,2 km to 1 cm) it is quite possible to draw not only the lands allocated for groups of collective farms, for large collective farms and for state farms, but also to plan in rough the internal land management of the largest farms. For example, the land in the Gigant state farm, created in 1928, was divided into 330 "cells" representing a square of 2 x 2 km.


This is a later version of the internal land management of the same state farm "Giant" with larger plots.

With such a large-scale land re-division, it was necessary to solve many issues related to the placement of settlements, the placement of the created MTS, central estates of state farms, collective farm-commodity farms, road construction, construction of dumping points and elevators, and in general the relationship of the created farm with the existing objects and land plots. Of course, such a task is easier to solve on a fairly large map, and then, based on what was planned and drawn, give instructions to the lower bodies and demand a report from them. Using this map, it was possible to roughly calculate the harvests and grain flows, link them with the existing transport infrastructure and plan the construction of new objects. Without a map, it will not work - you will get confused.

It should be a large map, just like the General Staff map of the fronts. If it has survived, it should be somewhere in the archive.

A historic achievement, one of the most significant


The history of Russia with and without this plan are two very different things. Such a grandiose plan, even partially successful, is an outstanding organizational achievement. In this, Soviet agrarians were pioneers; before them, no one had done anything like this, nor even thought about it.

It becomes clear that Stalin's famous plan for the transformation of nature also stood on this plan for the reorganization of agriculture as its foundation. Indeed, if the land was radically redistributed to allocate large areas for collective and state farms, then it is quite logical to add forest belts to them in order to moderate the climate and prevent drought.
The very appearance of such a plan is evidence of high potential, intellectual daring. From here it becomes clear why dreams of space were developed in the USSR. If they have already redistributed the land over an area of ​​5 million square kilometers, which is 3,7% of the area of ​​the earth's land without Antarctica, then yes, you can dream about space and apple trees on Mars.

In short, the agricultural reorganization plan of the 1930s is our historical achievement, one of the most significant.

All theories of the "Holodomor" and "the harsh drama of the people" are primarily aimed at depriving us of this achievement, erasing it from our memory. Note that the adherents of these theories reduce everything to stupidity and violence. Why? So that we would be dumber and more stupid, so that it would be easier to subjugate and exploit us.
233 comments
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  1. +33
    20 November 2024 05: 43
    The agricultural reorganization plan of the 1930s is our historical achievement, one of the most significant.
    + industrialization! Grandiose...
    1. +44
      20 November 2024 06: 37
      Where is the solution for agriculture? Maybe in slowing down
      development of our industry in general, our nationalized
      industry in particular? No way! That would be the most reactionary,
      anti-proletarian utopia. Nationalized industry must and will
      develop at an accelerated pace. This is the guarantee of our progress towards
      socialism. This is the guarantee that it will finally be industrialized.
      agriculture itself.
      Where is the exit? The exit is in the transition of small and scattered peasants
      farms into large and united farms based on public processing
      land, in the transition to collective cultivation of land on the basis of a new, higher
      techniques.
      The solution is for small and very small peasant farms
      gradually but steadily, not in the order of pressure, but in the order of showing and
      convictions, to unite into large farms on the basis of public, comradely, collective cultivation of the land, with the use of agricultural machinery and tractors, with the use of scientific methods of intensifying agriculture.
      There are no other options.

      I.V. Stalin "The 10th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)" v.304 p.XNUMX.
      1. +4
        21 November 2024 22: 40
        So how is this different from TNCs (Transnational Companies)?! Nothing! This is a question for the adherents of capitalism. Why is this allowed for capitalism, but not for socialism? Why is management in the interests of the people bad, but in the interests of a narrow circle of people good? Did Stalin build state capitalism? But it turned out to be more effective than private capitalism! The process of globalization leads to the erasure of state borders and even greater (global) management by private individuals. Why can't Russia today return to Stalin's state capitalism? After all, it proved its high efficiency!
    2. +12
      20 November 2024 16: 34
      Quote from Uncle Lee
      + industrialization! Grandiose...
      + electrification + universal education + medicine!!!
    3. -12
      20 November 2024 21: 09
      yes yes yes. a little arithmetic.
      As is known, communism = electrification plus Soviet power. Then
      electrification = communism minus soviet power
      Soviet power = communism minus electrification
      1. +5
        21 November 2024 14: 49
        This is Chubaischina, which tore the global power grid of the country into sections, which devalued the production of electricity. Our country is large in extent. In the east it is night, electricity is transmitted at the speed of light to the European part and then released in the European part - there is a need in the eastern part. What kind of task should we have to liquidate the global grid? BETRAYAL! The same as the collapse of factories, plants, collective farms and state farms. Only a single economy of the whole country - this is labor productivity (in the USSR it was in the range of 5-15% by industry), and now in the region of 1-2% within the limits of calculation errors. This is how we suffer. Thanks to the author for the objectivity in conveying the situation of our USSR.
  2. +20
    20 November 2024 06: 22
    I still remember that in some naval issue of "Jane", in 2003, it seems, Russia was not considered a dangerous enemy for the West, but only if it does not switch to a planned economy...
  3. +32
    20 November 2024 06: 35
    The collapse of the country began with Khrushchev, namely with the liquidation of the MTS and the consolidation of collective farms. He "got rid" of the MTS, trying to economize on this, since the MTS were state-owned, and forced the collective farms to buy equipment. Just as our, or maybe they were not ours, presidents of Russia "got rid" of the housing and utilities sector, handing over this most important structure to private hands. For example, I pay for heating to Vekselberg, the ultimate beneficiary of "T Plus". And he buys Faberge eggs with this money and "gifts" them to the Hermitage so that all the serfs will be touched.
    1. +11
      20 November 2024 07: 52
      namely, with the liquidation of the MTS and the consolidation of collective farms

      As for me, ideological sabotage is more important. I mean the abolition of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the introduction of some stupid type of all-people's state. The rest is consequences.
      1. +10
        20 November 2024 07: 58
        In my opinion, ideological sabotage is more important.

        You rate Khrushchev too highly... he was not that smart. He simply got involved in developing virgin lands and ruined the state very much. The persecution of Lysenko began precisely with Trofim Denisovich's rejection of the "everything to virgin lands" policy... Lysenko proposed restoring agriculture in the European regions of the country that suffered from the war.
        1. +25
          20 November 2024 08: 05
          But why did he do it?

          And Lysenko - suggested investing money in indigenous Rus' not because of that. He just rightly said that there is no infrastructure on virgin lands. Well, let's say we got the harvest - but how to transport it, where to store it? But the main thing is that there is bare steppe there, the plowed land will simply blow away. Which, in fact, is what happened.

          That is why Lysenko postulated - let's turn those regions that already have infrastructure into candy. And with the income we receive, we will methodically plant forest belts in Kazakhstan, dig ponds, build roads and elevators. And in 20 years, we will be ready for the proper development of virgin lands.

          But the bald corn grower needed everything at once... And most importantly, not like Comrade Stalin.
          1. +22
            20 November 2024 08: 11
            That is why Lysenko postulated: let’s turn those regions that already have infrastructure into candy.
            This is Stalin's plan to transform nature, Lysenko was his supporter. Khrushchev Kukuruzny hated everything Stalinist.
          2. +11
            20 November 2024 08: 18
            where the infrastructure already exists.

            Especially one like MTS, with their repair base and qualified personnel. And Khrushchev dispersed these personnel... a milling machine operator to one collective farm, a turner to another... And about the consolidation of collective farms, my grandmother told me a saying - "Eat sweat, work cold"... i.e. they united and it became impossible to evaluate the work fairly. Previously, they worked in full view of each other, and then they did not even know their own from one collective farm, but from another village
          3. -2
            20 November 2024 19: 04
            "Before this whole epic began, it was impossible to even imagine a farm of 100, 200, 300 - 500 belay thousand hectares"
            It seems to me that the author has seriously missed the mark with the numbers.
            The state farm - grain trust "Giant" consisted of 10 farms scattered across the country with a total area of ​​200 hectares - and was a monster in size.
            My district is 412 hectares and this is half the size of Turkey or about 000 of the lands of Germany.
            So 500 hectares is very unlikely.
            1. +3
              20 November 2024 23: 42
              Quote: your1970
              My district is 412 hectares and this is half the size of Turkey.

              The area of ​​Turkey is over 78 million hectares.
              Quote: your1970
              or about 1 of the lands of Germany.

              Not counting the city-states of Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg, the smallest state is Saarland (257 thousand hectares), but all the other 12 are much larger: from 1,6 to 7 million hectares.
              Quote: your1970
              The state farm - grain trust "Giant" consisted of 10 farms scattered throughout the country with a total area of ​​200 hectares

              The lands of the state farm (about 240 thousand hectares, 90% of which are virgin lands) were located on the territory of two districts of the Rostov region. The main task was to develop this virgin land. Just 6 years after its foundation, due to the complexity of managing such a massif, "Giant" was divided into 4 independent state farms: "Giant", "Salsky", "Tselinsky" and "Yulovsky", each with about 50-65 thousand hectares.
              1. -3
                21 November 2024 07: 34
                Quote: FIR FIR
                My district is 412 hectares and this is half the size of Turkey.

                The area of ​​Turkey is over 78 million hectares.
                Quote: your1970
                or about 1 of the lands of Germany.

                Not counting the city-states of Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg, the smallest state is Saarland (257 thousand hectares), but all the other 12 are much larger: from 1,6 to 7 million hectares.

                I admit - I was wrong, I made a mistake.
                Just like Transnistria, Cape Verde or South Ossetia.

                Quote: FIR FIR
                The state farm lands (about 240 thousand hectares, 90% of which are virgin lands) were located on the territory of two districts of the Rostov region
                - This is exactly what I am writing about - that “300 - 500 hectares” in one state farm is nonsense.
        2. +4
          21 November 2024 06: 46
          I talked to an old agronomist. He explained: the middle zone is grass and dairy farming. But there, contrary to reason, they tried to sow corn. The south of the country is fields and wheat. But there, contrary to reason, they tried to do melioration, they raised the level of salinity in the soil.
          Kazakhstan is pastures, meat cattle breeding. But there, contrary to reason, they began to plow virgin lands, the wind blew away the fertile soil.
          Ideology set bad, initially unattainable goals for specialists.
          Voluntarism.
        3. 0
          21 November 2024 16: 45
          The persecution of Lysenko began precisely with Trofim Denisovich's rejection of the "everything to virgin lands" policy... Lysenko proposed restoring agriculture in the European regions of the country
          In my youth I had the chance to communicate with people who knew Trofim Denisovich personally. They said that Trofim Denisovich liked to scoop up black soil in the presence of journalists and eat this black soil like a handful of raisins. So don't talk about Lysenko as a famous political figure. Apparently, Trofim Denisovich was a clever opportunist.
    2. +3
      20 November 2024 14: 39
      I agree that it all started with Nikita's rule. And not only in the economy, but also in foreign policy. Well, the General Secretary did not rule the country alone. He had advisers, ministers, and the Politburo, after all. Only then did this lump of careerist hangers-on form. Which ultimately destroyed the country. The main problem was politics - a leader from the bottom to the top must be a member of the party. That's where the foam flowed. Working at a plant in the mid-80s as the secretary of the Komsomol, I was called on the carpet to the director, and they asked me why I didn't submit an application. I then referred to the fact that I was not ready, let me think. I thought about it and refused - from a good foreman they instantly made me bad
      1. +4
        20 November 2024 14: 50
        Working at the plant in the mid-80s as the secretary of the Komsomol, I was called to the carpet to see the director, and they asked me why I didn’t submit my resignation. I then said that I wasn’t ready, let me think about it. I thought about it and refused - from a good foreman they instantly made me bad

        And I, in 89, in order to become the head of the design department (40 people) at 27 years old, already being the head of the design bureau, on the advice of the chief engineer, submitted an application to the party, but they did not accept it from me in the party committee, they asked for 2 more, from the workers, explaining this by the proportional composition of the party, to which I said that I did not need such a party, which accepts by questionnaire... well, in general, I quit with a reprimand entered in the Komsomol registration card.
      2. -1
        21 November 2024 05: 35
        Quote from: dmi.pris1
        I agree that it started with Nikita's reign.

        Before collectivization, grain exports to the USSR grew. After collectivization, they began to fall until they were replaced by an increase in food imports until 1987. After decollectivization, grain imports were again replaced by exports. Putin at one time first decided on a temporary embargo on chicken imports from the USA, and then on a ban on food imports from Europe. The information that this summer the prices for 10 eggs in the Chizhik store in Russia were only 69 rubles is driving the TsIPS members into wild hysteria
  4. -5
    20 November 2024 06: 37
    So that we would be dumber and more stupid, so that it would be easier to subjugate and exploit us.
    What's wrong? In previous articles, you, the author, wrote about how the Japanese subjugated the Koreans, provided them with electricity, built railroads, led them by the hand into progress, the Koreans were happy, they became smarter. laughing laughing
    1. +3
      20 November 2024 08: 46
      During the 2018 Winter Olympics, outraged South Koreans demanded an apology from NBC after a commentator claimed that Korea's rise to global power was due to Japan's "cultural, technological and economic example." For many South Koreans, analyst Joshua Cooper Ramo's comments reopened old wounds inflicted by the Japanese generation that occupied the country.

      "Any sane person familiar with the history of Japanese imperialism and the atrocities it committed before and during World War II would find such a statement deeply offensive and outrageous," read a petition demanding an apology signed by tens of thousands of South Koreans.
      1. -3
        20 November 2024 17: 49
        Judging by the minuses I was given, few people want to be Koreans with railroads and electricity laughing But the fact that there are plenty of foreign cars in the yards, imported clothes, various imported equipment, even imported nails, etc. is something else. laughing laughing hi
  5. +21
    20 November 2024 07: 16
    Were there mistakes during collectivization? There were. The excesses were especially noticeable in the first years of collectivization. Stalin assessed such actions. But mistakes are one thing, and the chronic diseases of capitalism are another. Depression, inflation, wars - these are all things that accompany the entire life of capitalism. It is always more difficult to implement something new. But the results work for the benefit of the majority of people.
    1. -2
      21 November 2024 05: 53
      Quote: Nikolay Malyugin
      But mistakes are one thing, and chronic diseases of capitalism are another.

      Nowadays, the data on grain export and import in the USSR and Russia are not a secret. I recommend that after reading a similar article extolling Stalin and criticizing Khrushchev, you search the Internet for data on grain export and import in the 20th century. It will immediately become clear that grain export collapsed catastrophically after 2 years of collectivization. Imports began in 1960, but only sharply increased in the year of Khrushchev's overthrow in 1964. The first peak of grain imports occurred in 1964, 1965, 1966, when Brezhnev, Kosygin and Podgorny had to demonstrate that Khrushchev's removal was not a criminal stupidity. Around 1971, imports began to grow again. After decollectivization, Russia is an exporter of grain.
  6. +10
    20 November 2024 07: 38
    The most important thing is that plans were then created in the interests of the entire people. In those years, the ruling class had not yet formed and had not subordinated the interests of the entire people to its own interests.
    1. 0
      20 November 2024 21: 11
      Tell me, was the famine of the early 30s also in the people's plans?
  7. +17
    20 November 2024 08: 25
    Oh, how! What about the "collective farm serfdom"? It turns out, according to many here, that we were yoke-bound, passports were not issued, land was taken away, we were deceived as president. Let's compare that nightmarish past with the bright present. In that nightmarish past, we had a collective farm, slavery, they specialized in different things, they just didn't grow wheat, it was not the right area. But there were gardens, fish, honey, sheep, buckwheat. There were canning shops, a technical school, a breeding station, where Mendelians and Morganists fought together with Michurinists for new varieties of fruits and berries. They let us go free. The land, the new state, took from the state, which earlier, this state, gave to collective farms for perpetual use and distributed to the peasants, take what previously belonged to you in collective use, and now everyone will have their own piece, it can be sold and buy two or even three and a half "Volgas" ... Sold ... and what I wrote above basically disappeared .. But imported fruits and berries appeared ...
    1. -9
      20 November 2024 08: 38
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      Let's compare that nightmarish past and the bright present.

      The result of collectivization is the destruction of the village, they drank bitterly there in Soviet times, it was simply godless, or, to use your style, terrible.
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      And so gardens, fish, honey, sheep, buckwheat. There were canning shops, a technical school, a breeding station, where Mendelians and Morganists, together with Michurinists, fought for new varieties of fruits and berries.

      There were also dances in the collective farm club, there were also fights, debauchery, in a drunken stupor.
      1. +4
        20 November 2024 08: 50
        You, the enemies of the USSR, due to your evil, cosmopolitan mentality - both in the Soviet period and in your anti-Soviet period, for your country and people there has always been and is only a stupid, destructive AGAINST.
        You have never had and do not have anything or anyone for your country and people.
        The same with your malice against Soviet collective farms. And the alternative is only that under agriculture in the Russian Empire the country never got out of a state of chronic hunger, and that you poison the people with counterfeit Soviet products at high prices, and imported products.
        1. -3
          20 November 2024 08: 56
          Quote: tatra
          The same goes for your malice against Soviet collective farms.

          You are lucky, Irina, that you did not live in a Soviet village. I didn’t either, but I had to go to collective farm dances.
          1. +2
            20 November 2024 08: 59
            So I don’t need the eternal AGAINST the enemies of the USSR, which is no longer just a mentality, but also a psyche, let’s be FOR agriculture in the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation.
            If you can’t, then don’t be indignant against collective farms.
          2. +4
            20 November 2024 15: 49
            But I was born in a village and lived until I came of age, in the most Soviet years (the 60s and 70s). They drank heavily, but only on holidays, and not everyone. I rarely saw them during working hours. And if it was sowing time and, especially, harvesting, they slept for 4 hours, worked without days off, and earned well during this time. In the mid-70s, my classmates worked as machine operators, and during harvesting they received 350 rubles, or even more, what kind of drinking was there.
            And when I went to the city to study at the institute, I saw group fights there at dances. In the village there were some, but not like that.
            1. +3
              20 November 2024 21: 58
              I was also born and lived in the village before the army. I also received 350 per harvest (for August and September), the rest of the months from 60 (in winter) to 90 when there was work. Can you explain to me why you slept 4 hours during the harvest? I worked as a machine operator, in the harvest on a SK-5 Niva, we arrived at work at 9, inspection, greasing of bearings, etc. took about an hour, about 10 went out to the field because in the morning there was dew and the grain remained in the ear after the combine, after 8 in the evening dew fell and it was impossible to work again.
              They drank heavily and most of them, mostly moonshine, drunk driving is a common thing, the main thing is to be able to get into the cabin, if he can get in, then he can drive.
              Yes, I went to the city not to the institute, but to work, because the work is easier, the salary is higher. Of the entire class, only one person connected his life with agriculture - as a mechanic in agricultural machinery.
        2. -5
          20 November 2024 13: 10
          Quote: tatra
          The same is true with your anger against Soviet collective farms.

          I have already said that you do not like the history of your country and therefore do not know it. And that is true. Stalin himself spoke out against collective farm ownership in his last work on the economics of socialism, and Khrushchev continued this by enlarging them and reorganizing them into state farms. You should not even talk about imports today, because you are completely out of touch, for example, about the fact that the USSR imported bread in significant quantities so as not to introduce ration cards for it in the early 60s. You diligently forget about sausage "made from toilet paper" in the late 70s. Of course, Moscow was fed especially well under Soviet rule... It is not Chelyaba or Kurgan... wink There was no need to send meat there, they'll make do. The local authorities were already switching to barter in those years - machine tool workers were sent to the North Caucasus in exchange for stewed meat or sausage mince. Actually, you've never bothered with facts. You're talking nonsense, like a political officer about the inevitability of the victory of communism, like Bender about New-Vasyuki... laughing
          1. +7
            20 November 2024 14: 18
            Quote: Hagen
            about sausage "made from toilet paper"

            Here is the recipe for "Doctor's" sausage from 1938.

            Beef - 150 gr.
            Lean pork - 600 gr
            Fatty pork – 250 gr.
            Water - 100 ml.
            Nitrite salt (0,4% - 0,6%) – 9-10 g.
            Table salt – 9-10 g.
            Sugar - 1 gr.
            Cardamom – 0,3 g.
            I don't see any toilet paper here.
            Initially, doctor's sausage appeared as a dietary product and was intended for "...patients whose health was undermined as a result of the Civil War and tsarist despotism", which is how it got its name,
            But then, as agriculture developed, "Doctor's" went on sale widely.
            And yes, the USSR did not buy llama meat from Peru, as the current government does.
            1. -3
              20 November 2024 14: 27
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              I don't see any toilet paper here.

              Yeah, and did they check "Bush's legs" against the number of legs Joe Sr. had? laughing They made fun ...
              1. +5
                20 November 2024 16: 49
                Quote: Hagen
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                I don't see any toilet paper here.

                Yeah, and did they check "Bush's legs" against the number of legs Joe Sr. had? laughing They made fun ...

                Laugh, laugh. I would like to see your "laughter" if you had violated the GOST in those days. You would have been crushing cranberries with your butt for 8 years in the blessed Kolyma.
                1. +3
                  20 November 2024 16: 53
                  I once observed an experiment - at VDNKh they were handing out free ice cream in 2 briquettes, and then they asked which ice cream was tastier. Everyone pointed to the ice cream made according to Soviet recipes. Keep laughing
                  Quote: Hagen

                  Yeah, and did they check "Bush's legs" by the number of legs Joe Sr. had? That made me laugh...
                  1. +1
                    20 November 2024 18: 23
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Everyone pointed to ice cream made according to Soviet recipes.

                    Ice cream does not reflect the level of mechanical engineering technology. If everyone chose Soviet drilling rigs not in the absence of any options, but in a competitive market, it would be a source of pride. But we are proud that we invented the mobile phone and computer (digital computer), but we sit at IBM and other foreign analogues, and you can't find a cell phone of our production today. And this is not funny at all.
                    1. +3
                      20 November 2024 19: 51
                      Quote: Hagen
                      (digital computer) was invented by us, but we sit at IBM and other foreign analogues, and even today you can't find a cell phone of our production. And this is not funny at all.

                      What are you talking about? Look at what the Soviet government and the communists have brought Russia to - they still haven't made cell phones.
                      I have a childish question for you - can 140 million people produce the entire range of things that the world community produces? Considering that they don't sell us anything.
                      Why did China become the world's factory? Because, firstly, it has 1,5 billion people, secondly, they were given everything, hoping to grow an anti-Russia out of it. And we have to do everything ourselves. With the enormous "help" of your favorite embezzlers. After all, it was they who overthrew the Soviet power that you disliked so much.
                      So, address your complaints to this government, and not to the Soviet one.
                      1. +1
                        20 November 2024 20: 28
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        I have a childish question for you: can 140 million people produce the entire range of things that the world community produces?

                        I have the same childish answer for you. In the USSR under the Soviet power by 1979 there were 262 million people, and by 1989 - more than 290. Just enough for autarky. But the reformist itch in the leadership was precisely what prevented real technological achievements. The dissolution of the council of ministers and the introduction of regional economic councils in its place did not contribute to the consolidation of forces and resources for solving complex problems. So before giving advice to whom and what to address, delve into the topic. Read history books, and you will learn that the Soviet power was also rich in embezzlers. It is still unclear who took the "party gold" and where. And just one fragment of many stories that were described during the thaw and stagnation. You just apparently are not in the know...
                      2. 0
                        20 November 2024 21: 11
                        Quote: Hagen
                        people, and by 1989 - more than 290. Just enough for autarky. But the reformist

                        Well, autarky in its pure form does not exist. Even in a country like the USSR or the USA.
                        Quote: Hagen
                        But the reformist itch in the leadership was precisely what prevented real technological achievements. Dispersal of the council

                        This is not a "reformist itch", this is a counter-revolution from above in its purest form. Changing the forms of ownership, that is the goal of the "reformist itch"
                        Quote: Hagen
                        technological achievements. The dissolution of the council of ministers and the establishment of regional economic councils in its place did not contribute to

                        So from this point on Mikitka began to break the Soviet power, which you so denigrate. Gorby only completed what Mikitka had started. Brezhnev and his successors only went with the flow. They did not have enough intelligence to improve the Soviet power.
                        In my opinion, I.V. Stalin, I won’t assert, said that scientific communism is not a dogma, but a guide to action.
                        Quote: Hagen
                        Read history books and you will learn that the Soviet government was also rich in embezzlers. It is still unclear who took the "party gold" and where it went. And

                        Did the "party gold" disappear under Soviet rule?
                        The sign was still old, and the Soviet power actually no longer existed. Its final collapse began with the arrival of your beloved Gorby. And it was under him that large-scale embezzlement began, but even it pales in comparison to the modern one. There is no point in blaming the mirror if your face is crooked.
                      3. 0
                        21 November 2024 06: 24
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        So from this point on, Mikitka began to break the Soviet power that you so denigrate.

                        You decide on the authorities. In your opinion, is this how Soviet power ended in 1953? I think that Soviet power was somewhat similar to American democracy. That is, it formally had a name, but the essence was completely different. Well, Soviet power is the power of the soviets. But how were these soviets formed? All votes for deputies proposed by the top leadership took place on an uncontested basis. Elections without a choice. In essence, a fiction. An event for show... The top brass moved the pawns, and they knew in advance that they would become queens. Tell me what's wrong... In the Stalinist system, power was strictly centralized and personified, and therefore there was no continuity. Within a month, Malenkov stopped a number of projects launched by Stalin and began to roll back in the main directions. For example, the project to transform nature... And I do not denigrate this power at all, but I am trying to comprehend and understand how it happened that, in principle, a good idea could not be implemented for a sufficiently long time. And even more so, love for Gorbachev is not mine... It's just that the development of society is continuous, and today we have those in power who were brought up by the CPSU. But it seems that it was not brought up convincingly, if it was mainly communist and Komsomol activists who became those bourgeois who snatched their initial capital from the fragments of the empire. And hiding behind the slogan - "there are enemies of the communists all around and they are to blame for all the troubles" - means going down the wrong path. You can't build the right solution on mistakes in the foundation of justifying problems. Therefore, I believe that in 17 there was an event of a planetary scale in a positive direction, and the USSR is a grandiose progressive humanistic project. But the attempt to democratize it led to a weakening of the protective properties of this project, and the first victim was the ruling elite of the Union. As it turned out, democracy is not capable of resisting imperialist pressure. I do not want to evaluate this somehow, neither good nor bad. I simply state it as a fact that I see. That's it, in short.
                      4. 0
                        21 November 2024 09: 54
                        Quote: Hagen

                        You decide about the authorities. In your opinion, did the Soviet power end in 1953?

                        You are not reading carefully. I have to repeat -
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                        So from this point on, Mikitka began to break the Soviet power, which you so denigrate. Gorby only completed what Mikitka had started. Brezhnev and his successors only went with the flow. They did not have enough intelligence to improve the Soviet power.

                        Quote: Hagen
                        how were these councils formed? All votes for deputies proposed by the top leadership took place on an uncontested basis. Elections without choice. Essentially a fiction.

                        So who is your doctor? You, not knowing or understanding how the Soviet power was formed, immediately give the assessment - fiction.
                        But in reality it is a socialist democracy.
                        A certain work collective is asked to choose a candidate for elections, it doesn't matter whether it's a Soviet or party governing body, let's say a woman with such-and-such education, a worker. And the candidacy itself is chosen by the collective at a meeting of the work collective. And who proposes the candidacy? Of course, the one who knows all the members of the collective. And the collective could agree, but it could also disagree and propose another candidate. In another collective - a man with such-and-such education, an engineer, in a third - a male worker, etc. As a result, the elected body represents all strata of the population, levels of education, professional activity, gender, age, etc., etc.
                        The party bodies of the enterprise were engaged in this "pre-election work". And do not think that only idiots sat in these bodies to propose to the meeting a candidate who was obviously not going to pass, i.e., not respected by the team.
                        Now the question is: what would you do if you were tasked with forming representative bodies?
                      5. 0
                        21 November 2024 11: 43
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        A certain work collective is asked to choose a candidate for elections, it does not matter whether it is for the Soviet or party governing bodies, let's say a woman with such and such an education, a worker. And the candidacy itself is chosen by the collective at a meeting of the work collective

                        Yes, yes, I took part in these elections and nominations. No need to tell fairy tales about democracy here. Whoever the higher party committee approves, that one will be elected. And everyone above the district committee, heads of the city power sector to ministers, city executive authorities and everything similar at the city level were approved by a special department of the administrative bodies of the Central Committee of the CPSU. Without its approval, no one was allowed into the city and higher authorities. And you there at least put yourself forward... And how many candidates were there for one place? I answer from memory - no more than one. How to choose from one? wink Otherwise, the monopoly on power of the VKPb/CPSU could have fallen out of their hands. And here you are telling me about some labor collective... The main task of the CPSU, like any political party, was to retain power. And there is no need to beat around the bush here.
                      6. 0
                        21 November 2024 12: 40
                        Quote: Hagen
                        tell. Whoever the higher party committee agrees on will be elected. And everyone who

                        Here you go again, having read what I wrote, you still didn't understand anything. Or didn't want to understand. Try reading it again, but carefully. Or you can forget what I wrote, except -
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                        Now the question is: what would you do if you were tasked with forming representative bodies?

                        You still haven't answered the question. But there is a well-known slogan - if you don't agree, offer (your own version).
                        But I am sure you don't have it. That is why you are not engaged in criticism, but in carping. That is, empty blah-blah-blah, with the aim of shitting on something that is beyond your understanding. hi
                      7. +1
                        21 November 2024 13: 42
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        That's why you're not criticizing, but being critical.

                        Well, in general, it is quite communistic to get personal, to get personal with likes and dislikes, to add some love passions in the absence of facts. My proposal would be, like Stalin's - to separate the party from economic powers and to let the council of ministers engage in production based on technical progress, and not party voluntarism under the slogan "let's have a plowed Kazakhstan". And don't attribute to me the desire to cheat anyone, especially the CPSU. It did it successfully without my help. But you have problems with concepts. It is you who are in the clouds of "socialist democracy". As if there is some other... Democracy either simply exists, or there is fiction instead. You should read books on this topic, for example, Spitsyn. He is a completely pro-Soviet author, but he strives for objectivity and presents any opinion based on archival documents. Of course, this is boring, not at all "the three musketeers", but it is useful for general development.
                      8. 0
                        21 November 2024 15: 38
                        Quote: Hagen

                        Well, in general, it’s quite communistic to get personal, to get personal with one’s sympathies and

                        And again you didn't understand me. I didn't attack you personally, but your position, and the essence of it is criticism. You criticized the electoral system in the USSR, but despite my repeated requests, you still haven't presented what, in your opinion, it should be like.
                        I have read Spitsyn and watched videos of his lectures on YouTube. And I have great respect for him.
                        Quote: Hagen
                        You have problems with concepts. It is you who are floating in the clouds of "socialist democracy". As if there is any other.

                        I will surprise you - there is also bourgeois democracy, besides socialist. By the way, they differ significantly from each other. There is also "academic", "classical" democracy. It exists on paper, but in nature it has never existed anywhere.
                        Here you are, in the previous comment you write -
                        Quote: Hagen
                        Whoever the higher party committee agrees on will be elected. And everyone who

                        That's right, the party committee agreed, proposed it to the working meeting of the collective and the collective, knowing the candidate, voted "for" nominating him as a candidate for the city council elections. Other work collectives did the same. And then - election day, you take the list of candidates and... cross out Ivanov's name. And on what grounds? Do you know him? Then why didn't you propose another candidate at the work collective meeting? And didn't you defend your opinion. Did the collective disagree with your opinion? Social democracy - the minority obeys the majority. And if you don't know the majority, then what grounds do you have for not trusting the choice of a work collective in which you don't work?
                      9. 0
                        21 November 2024 15: 47
                        And to follow up. You say that the elections are uncontested. Okay, we agree. Although at the meetings of work collectives it would have been possible to put forward candidates other than those proposed by the party committee. Oh well.
                        Let's imagine that 10 people need to be elected to the city council. There are 30 people on the voting list so that you have an alternative choice. So what? You don't know anyone except one, two, at best. So? How will you choose 30 people out of 10?
                        Laugh out loud. But you are happy - the elections are alternative!!!
                2. +3
                  20 November 2024 18: 12
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  I would like to see your "laughter" if you had violated GOST in those days.

                  GOSTs were violated at every step in the USSR. And that's why milk soured in the retail chain ahead of schedule, shoe soles cracked in the slightest frost, and driving a Volga from Gorky to Chelyaba from the conveyor without overhauling and tightening was akin to a feat and terrible luck. At ChTZ, at the end of the block, in the assembly shop, if a bolt during tractor assembly wouldn't fit into the hole, they would simply hammer it in with a sledgehammer, because "the plan was burning." And this can be said about all industries. Not just sausage. And that's why, despite the presence of a bunch of tractor and automobile plants, Siberia was developed with Magiruses and Catarpillars from Komatsu. In those days. Our machines, which were built according to GOSTs only in photos and can be looked at so as not to hear the swearing of drivers and machine operators. Here you have the whole Kolyma... One driver once told me that the KrAZ 256 was designed by an engineer whose drivers raped his wife. laughing
                  1. -2
                    20 November 2024 19: 55
                    Quote: Hagen
                    In the USSR, GOSTs were violated at every step.

                    And when did this start? Was it during your hump?
                    Unlike you, I worked at a machine-building plant for 43 years, starting in 1971. Therefore, I know what I am talking about.
                    1. +1
                      20 November 2024 20: 37
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Unlike you, I worked at a machine-building plant for 43 years, starting in 1971. Therefore, I know what I am talking about.

                      As they say in Russia, a log can sail the seas for a hundred years, but will not become a captain. And there have always been defects and a lot of them. About 2 thousand Il-30s were made during the war, 10 thousand were lost in combat and the same number were lost due to technical faults. The topic of manufacturing defects was touched upon in films of the 30s, which means the phenomenon existed back then. Nostalgia or age-related changes in cognitive function probably prevent you from remembering this. I am younger, and my memory is not bad. And what I forgot, I remember in books. Useful...
                      1. -2
                        20 November 2024 21: 22
                        Quote: Hagen
                        to swim, but he won't become a captain. And there were always defects and a lot of them. About 2 thousand Il-30s were made during the war, 10 thousand were lost in combat and the same amount were lost due to technical malfunctions. In the films of the 30s

                        You have once again confirmed that you are being clever about things that you do not understand or do not know at all.
                        Marriage is not necessarily a consequence of a violation of technology.
                        Haven't you seen the photo of the boy standing at the lathe? Do you think this is an isolated incident?
                        Defects in work can be caused by malnutrition, fatigue, the temperature in the workshop, insufficient lighting, or very intense work.
                      2. +1
                        21 November 2024 06: 39
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Haven't you seen the photo of the boy standing at the lathe? Do you think this is an isolated incident?

                        Of course I saw it. Like narrow-gauge railways built on the ground and "living" a momentary life. And bolts driven in with a sledgehammer also had their reasons. And the harvested crops that rotted in the fields and on the threshing floors without conditions for storage or removal. You asked about when the defects began, so I answered you - a long time ago. The reasons for it are different, mainly in the minds of both the mass performer and the manager - what to give priority to - quality or quantity... Sometimes they made mistakes. It happens...
                      3. 0
                        21 November 2024 10: 09
                        Quote: Hagen
                        beaten with a sledgehammer, also had their reasons. And the grown crop, rotting in the fields and on the threshing floors

                        Once I was walking from the train stop to the village with an old man, this was back in the 80s, we were talking, as usual, about life, passing by, not exactly a swampy field of about 5 hectares, abandoned, overgrown with sow thistle. The old man said - and before this field was plowed and sown with grain. I remember - he says - it was a rainy autumn, the barley was not harvested here, but the secretary from the district committee came, talked to the chairman and the next day the whole field was harvested and nothing rotted or disappeared. There was Soviet power, and now... And the old man waved his hand.
                      4. +1
                        21 November 2024 12: 06
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Grandfather says - and earlier this field was plowed and sown with grain. I remember - he says - it was a rainy autumn, the barley was not harvested here, but the secretary from the district committee came,

                        And did this old man tell you why the USSR bought grain from its sworn "friends" from the USA and Canada and under what conditions until the collapse of the USSR, and at the same time how today we sell surplus grain for export when the fields are deserted? By the way, in the times from 1954-55 in the collective farms there were about 30 million hectares of uncultivated land, which "Molotov and comrades" proposed to "raise" instead of the Kazakh steppes. So even then there were lands that were not brought into crop rotation. I believe these stories only when it is confirmed by something documentary. It would be better if the old man told how in the early 60s they cut out dairy farming, which could not be restored until the end of the 80s. And not because something natural happened, but because the perverted system of socialist competition and party-economic pressure allowed individuals to receive GST for a one-time result and corn scam, and in the end the entire Union ended up without meat. This was also Soviet power... I mean that any power has its pluses and minuses. And we need to get to the bottom of the reasons for failures, so as not to repeat them later. Grandfather's stories, like any memoirs, are a specific and ambiguous historical source.
                      5. 0
                        21 November 2024 13: 02
                        Quote: Hagen

                        And this old man told you why the USSR bought grain from its sworn "friends" from the USA and

                        I knew this without my grandfather. Due to the failure of Khrushchev's corn epic, the USSR was forced to buy feed grain (corn) abroad to feed the cattle on dairy and meat farms. To increase milk and meat production. The good idea aimed at producing feed grain was distorted by local bureaucrats. As always happens with bureaucracy, be it Soviet or today's bourgeois.
                        Quote: Hagen
                        It would be better if my grandfather told me how dairy farming was cut out in the early 60s and that it took until the end of the 80s to restore it.

                        And I know this without my grandfather. If you don't know, ask, I'll tell you.
                        But, for a complete and correct understanding of the essence of the events of the 60s, we must first of all understand who Khrushchev was, in his views.
                      6. 0
                        21 November 2024 13: 53
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And I know this without my grandfather. If you don't know, ask, I'll tell you.

                        If you know everything, why are you agitating me for Soviet power? Or did Khrushchev and Brezhnev not call their power Soviet? Well, who has soiled this power here, perhaps it did so itself? Maybe, of course, you are ready to include all of the above among the advantages of our power of those years? I would not say so. The country had great achievements, but the fact that the CPSU itself lost the power transferred to it from the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks is a medical fact.
                      7. 0
                        21 November 2024 15: 52
                        Quote: Hagen
                        years? I wouldn't say so. The country had great achievements, but the fact that the CPSU itself lost the power transferred to it from the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks is a medical fact.

                        I don't argue with that.
      2. +11
        20 November 2024 08: 55
        Do you live in a village? I lived and live directly in the village and have something to compare with.. Now it's a fight, debauchery in a drunken stupor.. Now, the villagers have dispersed to the cities, looking for treasures, working on a rotational basis, and instead of gardens, there are empty houses, cottage-type, what if someone buys them, in the meadows where there were apiaries and sheep grazed, estates, and our LLC privatized the river and we raise fish, however, on this river, and earlier there was a collective farm fish farm, half the district was fed trout in canteens, rest homes, pioneer camps, kindergartens.. Now, at a good price, we feed people like you with clean nails and in unbroken shoes, who would beat prisoners with dirty nails and torn shoes with stones, like two fingers on the asphalt.
        1. +1
          20 November 2024 08: 58
          Quote: kor1vet1974
          how you with clean nails and unbroken shoes, who are captives with dirty nails and torn shoes, to stone, as easy as pie

          By the way, where did yesterday's article go? It's a miracle, nothing more.
          1. 0
            20 November 2024 09: 01
            Do you think I deleted it?
          2. +1
            20 November 2024 09: 25
            By the way, where did yesterday's article go? It's a miracle, nothing more.

            Well, how could it not disappear, there is such sedition in the comments. I am surprised that I have not been banned for life. Perhaps it is not evening yet.
            1. -3
              20 November 2024 09: 28
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              Well, how could it not disappear, there is such sedition in the comments.

              There was no sedition in the comments, but dirty insults, which, by the way, were not stopped.
              1. +2
                20 November 2024 09: 32
                An insult is always a) personalized b) unconditional
                If these points are not followed, then someone's overly sensitive essence will pass off (accept) as an insult what is simply unpleasant to hear. Regardless of whether what is heard corresponds to reality.
                1. -2
                  20 November 2024 09: 35
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  someone's overly sensitive nature takes as an insult what it simply doesn't like to hear

                  There, in the comments, there were just dirty curses.
                  This was the reality yesterday.
              2. -1
                20 November 2024 10: 43
                There was no sedition in the comments, but dirty insults.

                How do I understand this, stone, in my address? Did I insult you filthily and slander you with clean nails and unripped boots? And when such people stone you, that means I just spat into your soul, to the very depths?
                1. +1
                  20 November 2024 10: 44
                  Quote: kor1vet1974
                  As I understand it, this stone is directed at me?

                  Don't worry, it's not directed at you.
                  1. 0
                    20 November 2024 10: 48
                    Well, I'm not really upset about it, I just didn't notice any insults from the commentators towards each other. I was just curious.
        2. +3
          20 November 2024 12: 23
          Quote: kor1vet1974
          Previously, there was a collective farm fish farm, half the district was fed trout in canteens, rest homes, pioneer camps, kindergartens.

          Somehow it wasn't noticeable in the stores, but the country was buying food - from grain to meat... bully
          Quote: kor1vet1974
          .Now at a good price, we feed those like you with clean nails and unripped shoes,

          You'd think money was falling from the sky... the usual inferiority complex of villagers - we feed you by buying your products... feel
          Quote: kor1vet1974
          now there is a fight, debauchery in a drunken stupor...

          They drove us to state farms in Siberia in the 70s and 80s to harvest everything from grass to grain...
          the villagers were drinking, moonshine was flowing like a river and we got some - fortunately there was a dry law during the harvest... request
          Quote: bober1982
          There were also dances in the collective farm club, there were also fights, debauchery, in a drunken stupor.

          that's true... although it was fun in my youth... feel
      3. +7
        20 November 2024 10: 27
        Quote: bober1982
        The result of collectivization is the destruction of the village,

        An interesting "destruction" was happening, it was "destroyed and destroyed", but it grew and developed, "like yeast", multiplied and multiplied, sponsored cities with a young and passionate population, but did not die out, but on the contrary, villages became villages, villages turned into urban-type settlements, and urban-type settlements grew into cities. And this was not only in the Moscow region, as now, but throughout the country, including the far North. And now, wherever you look, there is continuous support for agriculture and the village, and tens of thousands of settlements have disappeared, even more will disappear in the near future. The village "miraculously" died under the capitalist paradise.
        Quote: bober1982
        There were dances in the collective farm club, there were fights, debauchery

        And now there is nothing there, no dancing, no fighting, no debauchery. The cemeteries remain, the abandoned houses, slanted...
        1. 0
          20 November 2024 11: 01
          Quote: Doccor18
          An interesting "destruction" was happening, it was "destroyed and destroyed", but it grew and developed, "like yeast", multiplied and multiplied, sponsored the cities with a young and passionate population,

          Let's leave dancing and village moonshine aside and remember the so-called Soviet village prose, the authors of which are Russian writers, outstanding Soviet writers.
          So, their main idea is that collectivization is a crime that broke the back of the Russian peasantry.
          1. +3
            20 November 2024 11: 39
            Let's remember the so-called Soviet village prose, the authors are Russian writers, outstanding Soviet writers.

            Could it really be Soloukhin?
            1. +2
              20 November 2024 12: 00
              Belov, Rasputin, Shukshin, Abramov, playwright Vampilov, poet Rubtsov
              1. 0
                21 November 2024 16: 12
                Quote: bober1982
                Belov, Rasputin, Shukshin, Abramov, playwright Vampilov, poet Rubtsov

                Quotes that say collectivization killed the village.
                Please bring it.
          2. 0
            20 November 2024 18: 16
            Quote: bober1982
            Quote: Doccor18
            An interesting "destruction" was happening, it was "destroyed and destroyed", but it grew and developed, "like yeast", multiplied and multiplied, sponsored the cities with a young and passionate population,

            Let's leave dancing and village moonshine aside and remember the so-called Soviet village prose, the authors of which are Russian writers, outstanding Soviet writers.
            So, their main idea is that collectivization is a crime that broke the back of the Russian peasantry.

            Indeed. modern agroholdings are simply geared towards the revival of the village. doubt.....
          3. 0
            21 November 2024 16: 10
            Quote: bober1982
            writers, outstanding Soviet writers.
            So, their main idea is that collectivization is a crime that broke the back of the Russian peasantry.

            Name at least one.
        2. 0
          20 November 2024 15: 34
          Well, sort of... So "stripes" were delivered? Hm... However, after the Great Patriotic War, faced with outright hunger and a shortage of any food products, we had to return to "stripes". Where do you think the notorious "6 hundredths" came from... wink
        3. -3
          20 November 2024 19: 40
          Quote: Doccor18
          and it grew and developed, "like yeast", multiplied and multiplied, sponsored cities with a young and passionate population, but did not die out, but on the contrary, villages became villages, villages turned into urban-type settlements, and urban-type settlements grew into cities.

          in your parallel reality.
          more than 100 SNP were destroyed in the 000s, 1930 thousand villages were destroyed in 270-1956, tens of thousands of schools, cultural centers and public institutions were closed

          Millions of abandoned lands - it's all the USSR
          1. +1
            21 November 2024 08: 40
            Quote: Olgovich
            your parallel reality

            Why "parallel"? I lived in it, my ancestors lived in it, they saw it all with their own eyes, they told us about it. And you won't be able to hang anti-socialist noodles on our generation. The future will most likely succeed, but we, while we are alive, will try to make sure that you don't succeed.
            1. -4
              21 November 2024 12: 19
              Quote: Doccor18
              Quote: Olgovich
              your parallel reality

              Why "parallel"? I lived in it, my ancestors lived in it, they saw it all with their own eyes, they told us about it. And you won't be able to hang anti-socialist noodles on our generation. The future will most likely succeed, but we, while we are alive, will try to make sure that you don't succeed.

              You are presented with the FACTS of the MURDER of a Russian village from DOCUMENTS.

              And you live in a fantasy world of pink Bolshevik ponies. But you won't be able to fool anyone anymore, your false truths/news are over
              1. +1
                21 November 2024 12: 39
                Quote: Olgovich
                You are given the FACTS of the MURDER of a Russian village from DOCUMENTS

                It was not "murder of the village", but at the initial stage serious mistakes, somewhere shortcomings, and somewhere excesses on the ground, which for the time of radical restructuring of the entire state/foundations/entire society are inevitable, although they should be unacceptable and condemned. No one tells you that everything was beautiful and ideal then. But the goals were sound and the result became visible to everyone, after all, mostly a positive result.
                As for the "murder of the village", it has been going on for the last decades to the bravura marches of capitalist "effective managers". And what is surprising is not that you are so persistently fixated on the mistakes of the distant past, but that you point-blank refuse to notice the harsh reality of the present. Or does the anti-Bolshevik faith not allow this, or do they not pay for it?
                1. -3
                  21 November 2024 12: 51
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  This was not a “murder of the village,” but at the initial stage serious mistakes, in some places shortcomings, and in some places excesses on the ground, which for a time of radical restructuring of the entire state/foundations/entire society are inevitable, although they should be unacceptable and condemned.

                  I am not saying that it was done intentionally. They wanted the best, yes, but isn't a good desire that led to millions of victims, hunger, suffering of millions, the death of hundreds of THOUSANDS of villages created by our ancestors for CENTURIES murder and a crime? It is.
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  the result became visible to everyone, after all, it was mostly a positive result.

                  millions do not see it: the borders of the 17th century, established in 1917-1940, the extinction of Russians by 1991, the heart of Russia - the Non-Black Earth Region - depopulated by 1991, the country with the largest arable land in the world - could NOT feed itself, lagging behind in everything, coupons for underwear, etc.
                  Quote: Doccor18
                  oh, that you point-blank refuse to notice the harsh reality of the present.

                  the faithful tens of millions people that Russia missed because of your "craftsmen" - and the country will flourish!
      4. +6
        20 November 2024 11: 17
        There is no collectivization now, but villages were destroyed in the 2000s, and now they have taken on small towns.
        1. -1
          20 November 2024 11: 22
          Quote: Gardamir
          There is no collectivization now, but villages were destroyed in the 2000s, and now they have taken on small towns.

          Life in small towns has always been difficult, under any government.
          1. +3
            20 November 2024 11: 29
            How small? With a population of 22, we had developed industry, a mechanical plant, an industrial complex, a sewing factory, a distillery, and other enterprises. That's why we were a city and not a village.
            But now the Internet tells me that there are only 14 left. By the way, in 000 there were 2000.
            For the first thirty years of my life, life was great, and then we moved to the market and life really became difficult.
        2. -1
          20 November 2024 19: 46
          Quote: Gardamir
          There is no collectivization now, but villages were destroyed in the 2000s,

          How can you not know your history like that?! Aren't you ashamed?

          В 1959 – 1979 years. the number of villages in the USSR decreased by 54,3% (to 383,1 thousand), RSFSR - by 60,2% (up to 177,1 thousand).. (Russian Encyclopedia)
          Only Russia, your people destroyed 270 thousand villages
      5. +7
        20 November 2024 13: 15
        And didn't they drink in the cities? Didn't they fight at dances? There were different collective farms then, just like villages. And enough of the tales about "peasant slavery".
        1. +3
          20 November 2024 13: 24
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          And didn't they drink in the cities?

          Everyone drank everywhere, and in the army they drank - privates, sergeants, sergeants, officers and generals.
          It turned out interestingly that the more socialism developed, the more drunkenness increased, it simply overwhelmed everyone.
    2. -1
      21 November 2024 07: 47
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      Back then, in our nightmarish past, we had a collective farm, slavery,

      Well, what kind of slavery can there be on a collective farm - if they drove the army, schoolchildren, students, "associate professors and candidates" there, and for cotton they drove everyone?
      In 1988, we were harvesting potatoes, and the collective farmers were walking around and kicking their asses: "We collected for ourselves (stole - that's more accurate), and let the army harvest the rest." We didn't harvest less than 2 fists - we had to clean it later, and the field with dug up and unharvested potatoes went under the snow.
  8. -4
    20 November 2024 08: 34
    And as a result of all these measures, the yield of 1913 was achieved in 1940, and exceeded in 1956, a fantastic success.
    1. 0
      20 November 2024 08: 55
      Yes, and during this period, of course, there was nothing bad for the USSR and the Soviet people? There was no destruction of tens of thousands of state and collective farms by the Nazis?
      The enemies of the USSR have a mental tendency to falsify everything for the sake of their own vile and criminal gain. And you yourselves, "effective", began to produce more grain than in the RSFSR - only after 26 years of your vaunted "market economy".
      1. -4
        20 November 2024 09: 04
        The problem with you communists is that you lie not only to others for propaganda purposes, but also to yourselves.
        1. -1
          20 November 2024 09: 09
          YOU, enemies of the USSR, the anti-Soviet period, proved that, compared to you, enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, Soviet communists and their supporters are examples of honesty.
          You lie always and in everything, you falsify everything as it suits you for your vile purposes, you falsified the pre-revolutionary, Soviet periods, your anti-Soviet, starting with your totally false anti-communist Perestroika.
          And you are NOT capable of either defending yourself or refuting the accusations against you, you cowardly act according to the principles of “we have nothing to do with it, it’s all others’ fault” and “defending yourself by attacking others.”
          1. -1
            21 November 2024 07: 55
            Quote: tatra
            ,starting with your totally false anti-communist Perestroika

            Tatra - so the CPSU started Perestroika. And all 16 million members cheerfully "approved" of it.
            And that means that the communists led anti-communist activity, and communist The Ministry of Internal Affairs and the KGB watched silently.
            Don't you find it strange that Did communists engage in anti-communism?
        2. +4
          20 November 2024 09: 12
          And you democrats, God forgive me, don't lie to yourselves, and don't lie for propaganda purposes. You cut the harsh truth to the core.
          1. 0
            20 November 2024 09: 18
            Not only have the enemies of the USSR, with their "freedom of speech", proven that they are all pathological liars and hypocrites, but they also believe all the lies from their anti-Soviet-Russophobic puppeteers. The perestroika people sold them the delusional anti-Soviet myth about the "abundant" Russia before the communists, which "fed the whole world", and they still believe it.
          2. -1
            20 November 2024 10: 34
            Quote: kor1vet1974
            And you are democrats, God forgive me

            laughing laughing laughing Democrats... laughing laughing laughing
            1. +5
              20 November 2024 10: 46
              One thing amazes me: all the anti-communists who consider themselves democrats, why don’t they want to stand in the same row with Hitler and Churchill and others, but they curse them with the worst words... probably because these are incorrect anti-communists. laughing
              1. -1
                21 November 2024 08: 04
                Quote: kor1vet1974
                One thing amazes me: all the anti-communists who consider themselves democrats,

                Doesn't it surprise you that
                Quote: tatra
                starting with your totally false anti-communist Perestroika .
                The CPSU began anti-communist Perestroika?
                Don’t you find it strange that all 16 million members of the CPSU cheerfully supported her?
                That there were no mass exits from the party because of the anti-communism that had begun?
                If communists began to engage in anti-communism - What do the mythical democrats of 1985 have to do with this?
                If the result of the anti-communist Perestroika was the collapse of the country, then who is to blame for this except the CPSU? At that time, the democrats had no army, no organs, no power, no...
                The communists succeeded in what neither Hitler nor Churchill could do - they drained the country from within...
        3. +2
          20 November 2024 18: 22
          Quote: Cartalon
          The problem with you communists is that you lie not only to others for propaganda purposes, but also to yourselves.

          Any permanent government, elected from lists handed down from above, is lying. In fact, this is an axiom.
    2. +4
      20 November 2024 09: 03
      The gross grain harvest in the Russian Empire in 1913 amounted to 92,5 million tons, the gross grain harvest in the USSR in 1940 amounted to 120 million tons.
      1. -5
        20 November 2024 09: 07
        You're lying, 120 ml is 1960, not 1940.
        1. +4
          20 November 2024 09: 10
          The Internet will help you... collect the gross grain harvest in the USSR in 1940
          Here is what I typed and what I got: The years 1938 and 1939 were average-yielding, while 1937 and 1940 were especially high-yielding. In 1940, a high grain yield was obtained - 7,3 billion poods [3, p. 12] or almost 120 million tons. This result was achieved due to the high grain yield - 8,6 c/ha, and also due to the increased, in comparison with other years of the period under consideration, area of ​​plowing land - 150,4
          1. -3
            20 November 2024 09: 16
            8.6 c/ha is exactly the yield of 1913, then the war and failure, these figures could be exceeded only with the beginning of the mass use of mineral fertilizers
            1. +1
              20 November 2024 09: 33
              You, enemies of the USSR, are an anomaly in everything, including the fact that you yourselves have been whining for 33 years that something or someone is always preventing you from doing anything useful for Russia and its people, that you are always “cleaning up” for others, but you make the highest demands on Soviet communists and their supporters, reaching the point of complete absurdity.
              Between the best year for the Russian Empire in 1913, including the largest grain harvest, there were 4 years of the First World War and at least 4 years of the Civil War, which, de facto, continued until the mid-30s as a war with the Basmachi in Central Asia.
              And during this period, Finland and Poland, which still occupied Russian territories, including Western Belarus, were separated from the USSR; Russian provinces were separated, from which the enemies of the Bolsheviks, having captured them, created their own states: Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.
              1. +4
                20 November 2024 18: 13
                Quote: tatra
                You are enemies of the USSR

                Irina, I wonder: in your opinion, is there? not enemies on the forum?
              2. 0
                20 November 2024 18: 29
                "Between the best year for the Russian Empire in 1913, including the largest grain harvest, there were 4 years of the First World War and at least 4 years of the Civil War, which, de facto, lasted until the mid-30s as a war with the Basmachi in Central Asia." Who are the Basmachi, are they aliens, the English expeditionary force or locals enslaved by tsarism, and they should have greeted the Russian Bolsheviks with flowers, as the guarantor of their mentality, and Afghanistan, too, was not happy with all the newcomers, and they even fought with them....
          2. +1
            20 November 2024 12: 28
            Quote: kor1vet1974
            due to the high grain yield - 8,6 c/ha,

            harvest 1913 - 8,2 c/ha.
            In 1913, they calculated barn weight, in the 1930s - in the field, before harvesting... request
            1. +2
              20 November 2024 13: 10
              In 1913, they calculated barn weight.

              This is a common myth. The data on the Russian Empire that everyone is distributing on the Internet are the data of the statistical committee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which received data from the reports of the zemstvos before the harvest, generally at the root, and not, for example, the Ministry of Finance, which received reports from tax inspectors. Therefore, the figures of the Central Statistical Committee are not a barn tax, the figures of the Ministry of Finance are a barn tax. There are so many pitfalls in the statistics of the empire that ordinary people simply do not have the opportunity to correctly interpret the figures. This is a serious problem and the cause of many disputes among specialists.
              PS 8,2 c/ha also cannot be attributed to the yield in the empire, this is the yield within the borders of the USSR, without Poland.
              1. +1
                20 November 2024 14: 04
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                8,2 c/ha also cannot be attributed to the yield in the empire; this is the yield within the borders of the USSR, without Poland.

                Not at all! Let's compare the data for the USSR.
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                This is a common myth.

                As I understand it, you don't mind about the USSR? feel Evil tongues talk about at least 25% losses... peasants in the Russian Empire did not allow this...
                And the technology was different - the grain was in embryo form, it was threshed in winter on quasi-stationary threshing machines - there the grain losses are a priori less!
                1. +4
                  20 November 2024 15: 18
                  Quote: DrEng02
                  Evil tongues speak

                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  There are so many pitfalls in statistics that ordinary people simply do not have the ability to correctly interpret the numbers.

                  For each of the periods that people like to argue about, you can read entire courses with analyses of nuances, interpretations, coverage, etc.
                  Previously, I was more willing to cover the above here. But you get tired of everything, and repeating yourself is even more annoying.
                  1. +2
                    20 November 2024 15: 50
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    But you get tired of everything, and repeating yourself becomes even more boring.

                    you can start a cloud...
    3. +4
      20 November 2024 09: 26
      And as a result of all these measures, the yield of 1913 was achieved in 1940, and exceeded in 1956, a fantastic success.

      Don't repeat the manipulative nonsense of others.
    4. +7
      20 November 2024 12: 05
      reached the 1913 yield in 1940 and exceeded it in 1956

      Scientists claim that crop yields depend more on climate than on the form of farming.
      At present, there is a lot of unplowed land, but we are getting quite decent harvests. Does democratic wheat give a bigger harvest, or does global warming play a role?
  9. +3
    20 November 2024 09: 52
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    I still remember that in some naval issue of "Jane", in 2003, it seems, Russia was not considered a dangerous enemy for the West, but only if it does not switch to a planned economy...

    Planned economy? You and all of us in the Eastern Bloc had that. We all went bankrupt.
    1. -1
      20 November 2024 10: 04
      Then why are you, enemies of the USSR, if you think that your economy is better than the Soviet one, so afraid to present the results of your economy?
      So, brag about how you managed to get it so that your milk yield is less than under the communists, but you produce much more dairy products than under the communists?
      1. -9
        20 November 2024 11: 06
        Quote: tatra
        how did you manage to do this?

        The main thing is that I have everything! Just now I had my second breakfast: pastrami, country butter, Dor Blue cheese, sandwiches with red caviar... from the places where it is found, excellent Brazilian coffee and Spanish grapes. For lunch there will be seaweed soup from the UK, baked trout, and pineapple slices. All this can be bought at any time, and there is no need to "get" anything. My wife makes yogurt herself from country milk - I bought her a yogurt maker. She bakes brisket in onion skins with curry herself - better than at the market. But at the market we buy ham with a tear, exactly like they had in the USSR. Only without a queue. But there were definitely no king prawns in the USSR. But now they are just like crayfish. Plus German Riesling - with the exact taste of childhood. And if I need something for creativity - I order from China. I like this life...
        1. +4
          20 November 2024 11: 23
          By the way, you don’t know where to get money to buy all this.
          1. -4
            20 November 2024 12: 14
            Quote: Gardamir
            By the way, you don’t know where to get money to buy all this.

            In the bank, of course, where else? Don't buy cigarettes... and here's 50% of the money for that. Don't buy crappy beer and vodka - and you'll have enough for everything else.
            1. +2
              20 November 2024 12: 48
              Don't buy crappy beer and vodka

              Nowadays all beer is lousy, but I used to love beer. Now experts will say that properly brewed beer is excellent. But beer is not brewed, only the wort is boiled, and beer should be obtained like all alcoholic beverages by fermentation... Zhigulevskoe according to GOST had to ferment for a month, and Leningradskoe three, and the productivity of breweries was measured by the area of ​​their basements. What they sell now is water with potato alcohol and flavor additives. And vodka has gone bad, you rarely find vodka made from grain alcohol... I sometimes drink expensive Chistye Rosy (Mordovian), in good Moscow restaurants they offer this and "Eugene Onegin", but also from Mordovian alcohol.
        2. +6
          20 November 2024 12: 10
          And where is food security in this scheme? If sanctions are imposed, you will go around the world, I mean, you will kick the bucket.
          1. -3
            20 November 2024 12: 14
            Quote: glory1974
            I mean, you'll kick the bucket.

            I was just walking and took a photo of how they sell farm milk near my house. There is also cottage cheese, sour cream and sausage. Natural, without additives. Cow meat, rabbits, cow tongue... - what sanctions, what are you talking about. This has always been and will be. Should I send you a photo with milk transport or will you take my word for it?
            1. +6
              20 November 2024 12: 31
              It was easier to survive in the village, no one argues. But we are talking about the country, not those who dug in in the village.
              Grudinin spoke in the State Duma and said that if counterfeit products are removed, the shelves will remain empty, like in the late USSR.
              1. -5
                20 November 2024 12: 32
                Quote: glory1974
                the shelves will remain empty

                Who knows what someone said. To trust people like him is to disrespect yourself!
                1. +5
                  20 November 2024 12: 35
                  and you don't believe it. You read the experts. Milk from 80% of producers, even large ones, whose products are presented in chain stores, is counterfeit with replacement of milk fat.
                  1. -4
                    20 November 2024 12: 37
                    Quote: glory1974
                    You read the experts.

                    I DON'T DRINK THAT. I drink from here:
                    You couldn't get any closer. You can't take pictures of people without their permission.
                    1. +3
                      20 November 2024 12: 42
                      Well, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the country and the people.
                      1. -2
                        20 November 2024 21: 16
                        Quote: glory1974
                        people.

                        The people are made up of people. If one is doing well, then the second, the third, the 10th-100th, then the people are doing well. We just need to take an example from the best, not from whining losers!
              2. -1
                20 November 2024 13: 22
                Well, yes, Grudinin was a master at passing off Turkish strawberries as his own...
    2. +5
      20 November 2024 10: 22
      Planned economy? You and all of us in the Eastern Bloc had that. We all went bankrupt.

      Because of the planned economy? Is that the reason? Or because they poured into your ears about "you'll live well", but didn't say that in a market economy you first have to get a place in the market. And when the market is already divided up for you - snatch it. Which you will never be allowed to do.
      GDP per capita in Bulgaria:
      1950 - 1651 dollars
      1989 - 6217 dollars
      2020 - $9293
      In 1988, it was ranked 25th in the world for this indicator, now it is in the seventh ten.
    3. 0
      20 November 2024 18: 34
      Quote: stoqn477
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      I still remember that in some naval issue of "Jane", in 2003, it seems, Russia was not considered a dangerous enemy for the West, but only if it does not switch to a planned economy...

      Planned economy? You and all of us in the Eastern Bloc had that. We all went bankrupt.

      Can you give an example of works on economics, leading economists, who would claim that a planned economy is worse than a market, provided, of course, that the plans are real and competently organized. This refers specifically to the principle, and not to individual aspects of economics.
  10. -6
    20 November 2024 10: 24
    Collectivization: What are they trying to hide from us?
    No one tried to hide everything written by the author - about these wasted The enormous material and labor resources spent were trumpeted as achievements from 1930 onwards.

    But the authorities were bashfully silent about the results of this bacchanalia. But the results are impressive:

    - in the USSR in 1930 happened 13 mass peasant uprisings (including 453 insurgent), 176 open armed uprisings, millions of peasants came out, who were brutally suppressed by the OGPU and the army,

    -mass starvation deaths of millions with cannibalism precisely in the areas of accelerated collectivization,

    -a sharp decline in food consumption and production, and why then were the Kolkhls created?

    -crop yields are low from 1913 to 1956, except 1937

    - a decline in the number of cattle compared to 1913 to the 1950s

    - the slave state of the peasants, who were forced to pay TRIBUTE (Stalin), working practically for free, the mass flight of peasants from the village by any means

    - gigantic crop losses, etc., up to 30% under snow, in mud, on threshing floors, etc. - everything is all wrong.

    --50% of livestock products, etc. were produced on... private farms of peasants-collective farms in full.

    - destroyed hundreds of thousands of SNPs in the 1930s, through the forced resettlement of peasants to the estates

    -in 1953 less grain was collected than in 1913 - that's the result
    1. +4
      20 November 2024 11: 35
      In 1953, less grain was collected than in 1913

      And in 1940?
      It’s very smart to compare without delving into the essence of the numbers.
      In 1953, less grain was harvested overall because less barley and oats were sown. And less barley and oats were sown because the livestock population had not yet been restored after the war losses. What's the point of sowing it? To eat it ourselves?
      But the harvest of wheat and rye in 1953 was 55,79 million tons, in 1913 - 49,01 million tons.
      -crop yields are low from 1913 to 1956, except 1937

      At Rastyannikov and Deriugina's? lol
      They took the data for 1913 from a source in which the yield is given not for the empire, but for 47 (even 51) provinces. Not to mention that they did not calculate the average yield for different periods based on the same number of crops.
      1. -2
        20 November 2024 20: 07
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        And in 1940?
        Otherwise, the essence of the numbers is very clear.

        Yesterday you called Russia a fascist country. After that you still dare to write to me?! Spare me your annoying communication, I'm disgusted.

        Please note that I will write this under every comment I make.
        1. +1
          21 November 2024 10: 38
          Yesterday you called Russia a fascist country. After that you still dare to write to me?! Spare me your annoying communication, I am disgusted.
          Please note that I will write this under every comment I make.

          1) This is a lie.
          2) I, a citizen of Russia living in Russia, will be told what to do by someone from Romania? There are many "lovers of Russia from afar" who know what is best for my country. At the same time, they are in no hurry to go to Russia.
          1. -3
            21 November 2024 12: 26
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            1) This is a lie

            This is true. Repeat your message about fascist Russia today from 19.11.2024/XNUMX/XNUMX in the article about Kappel word by word and let the citizens and moderators evaluate, COWARD
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            I, a citizen of Russia living in Russia, will be given orders by someone from Romania who knows who?

            It is not for you, Russophobes, who tore Russia into pieces, to determine what is Russia and what is not.

            Got it?
            1. +1
              21 November 2024 12: 38
              It's true.

              It's a lie
              Repeat your message about today's fascist Russia word for word and let the citizens and moderators evaluate it

              So that the whole article is deleted again? Even if only one message is deleted. There is no point.
              Citizens rated it as a plus.
              Because they understood what was written.
              Unlike you.
              to determine what is Russia and what is not.

              So welcome! Come and get citizenship. Such a fervent "patriot" will be welcomed.
              Then tell the citizens living here what to do. Got it?
              1. -2
                21 November 2024 13: 03
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                It's a lie

                it's true
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                So that the whole article can be deleted again?

                to prove your lie-let everyone appreciate it.
                You can ask the moderators, as the author of the comment.
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                So welcome! Come and get citizenship. Such a fervent "patriot" will be welcomed.
                Then tell the citizens living here what and how

                It is not for you, Russophobes, to tell who should do and live where.
                You, who consider Russia a fascist state, cannot be a citizen of Russia
                1. 0
                  21 November 2024 13: 11
                  It is not for you, Russophobes, to tell who should do and live where.

                  Everything, all the "love for Russia" immediately evaporates somewhere when it comes to deeds, and not just empty talk. wassat
                  1. -1
                    21 November 2024 14: 29
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    Everything, all the "love for Russia" immediately evaporates somewhere when it comes to deeds, and not just empty talk.

                    It is not for you, who called Russia a fascist country, to talk about affairs.
                    So where is your post from 19.11/XNUMX, coward?
                    1. -1
                      21 November 2024 15: 11
                      So where is your post from 19.11/XNUMX?

                      Isn't it obvious? In the same place as all the comments on the deleted article.
                      How is your nose, is it still bothering you? lol
                      1. -1
                        21 November 2024 15: 17
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Isn't it obvious?

                        Are you afraid, coward? That's right, be afraid
                        because you called today's Russia a fascist country.
                      2. -1
                        21 November 2024 16: 14
                        Where did you see fear? Your question was answered.
                        P.S. Remember, a coward is someone who allows himself to accuse others of cowardice, knowing that he is separated from these others by kilometers of Internet lines.
                      3. -1
                        22 November 2024 10: 19
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Where did you see fear?

                        you are dodging and AFRAID to repeat your post from 19/11 because, like YOU wrote it ourselves"get a lifetime ban" for YOUR accusation of Russia being fascist.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        -coward

                        Well, you're afraid of getting into trouble with the Horde.

                        Do not be afraid! lol
                      4. 0
                        26 November 2024 15: 35
                        because, as YOU yourself wrote, "you will get a lifetime ban."

                        Yes. AND?
                        Lifetime ban for "Insulting religious beliefs and feelings of citizens" (paragraph "d" of the Rules).
                        "the accusation of fascism" was invented exclusively by you.
    2. +4
      20 November 2024 12: 11
      -crop yields are low from 1913 to 1956, except 1937

      And what happened in 1937? Collectivization was temporarily cancelled?
      1. 0
        20 November 2024 20: 09
        Quote: glory1974
        And what happened in 1937? Collectivization was temporarily cancelled?

        fabulous weather conditions - everything came together.
        In 1937, people fled from hunger, yes - see Historical Materialism.
  11. +13
    20 November 2024 10: 29
    With collectivization, it is important to understand the reasons for its implementation.
    What was the state of agriculture in the USSR after the civil war?
    First: devastation, second: lack of mechanization, third: land shortage, fourth (the most important) - the land is worked by a scattered petty-bourgeois peasant. And the rural moneylender - the kulak - has not gone anywhere.
    And a new World War is on the horizon. We need to restore industry. Build new factories. And that means feeding workers in the cities. If there were no prospects for a new war, we could wait 50-70 years until the peasants become farmers. Some of them will not become farmers, they will go bankrupt and go to work as farm laborers or in factories. Then the farmers will go bankrupt and agroholdings will appear in their place (which is what is happening now). But, firstly, who would have given the USSR these 50-70 years? And secondly: did the Bolsheviks really make a revolution and win the civil war in order to calmly watch the natural process of ruining the peasantry, how the kulaks are getting fat - the process of initial accumulation of capital?
    So the question is: Was there a choice?
    Stalin was right when he said: "We must cover this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we will be crushed."
  12. -1
    20 November 2024 10: 43
    The enemies of the USSR, who captured the USSR, not only made EVERYTHING worse for their country and people than it was in the USSR, but also proved that they are for everything bad for their country and people.
    And it is an axiom that Soviet collective farms are the best way of managing agriculture - both in terms of agricultural productivity and for the majority of peasants - than it was before 1917 and became after 1991. And the enemies of the USSR, who rush to "refute" this with malice against Soviet agriculture, or "pride" in the fact that they poison the people with counterfeits of Soviet products at high prices, only confirm this.
    1. +9
      20 November 2024 11: 21
      Irina, take courage and answer the question: who among Stalin, Beria, Khrushchev were enemies of the USSR?
      Look, under Stalin, the Mingrelian affair began, many high-ranking officials were arrested, if you believe the documents, more than a hundred people, after Stalin's death, Beria wrote a note to the Presidium of the Central Committee of the CPSU about the improper handling of the case of the so-called Mingrelian nationalist group. April 8, 1953:

      At the end of 1951 and the beginning of 1952, state security agencies arrested a number of responsible party and Soviet workers of the Georgian SSR on charges of belonging to a Mingrelian nationalist organization that allegedly existed in Georgia.

      At the beginning of March of this year, the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs received signals that the case of the so-called Mingrelian nationalist group was fabricated and that the investigation into the cases of those arrested was being conducted with gross violations of Soviet laws.

      To verify the accuracy of the signals received, the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs set up a special investigative commission.

      As a result of checking the investigative materials and statements of those arrested, it was revealed that the entire case of the so-called Mingrelian nationalists is a provocative fabrication by the former Minister of State Security of the Georgian SSR N. RUKHADZE and his patrons from the Ministry of State Security of the USSR.

      Having long nurtured criminal careerist goals, N. RUKHADZE, having taken the post of Minister of State Security of the Georgian SSR, in every way contributed to the creation of an unhealthy atmosphere in the relations between leading party and Soviet workers.

      In the autumn of 1951, N. RUKHADZE falsely informed I. V. Stalin*, who was on holiday in Georgia, about the state of affairs in the Georgian party organization, presenting the shortcomings that had taken place in the work of party and economic bodies as the result of the subversive enemy activity of a group of Mingrelian nationalists he himself had invented.
      I. V. Stalin took RUKHADZE’s provocative information on faith without subjecting it to the necessary verification.

      Thus, the former Minister of State Security of the Georgian SSR RUKHADZE and some leading officials of the USSR MGB who were in collusion with him, misled I. V. Stalin* for their own criminal purposes, slandered a number of leading party and Soviet officials of Georgia and, having secured freedom of action against them, took all measures, including the most flagrant violation of Soviet laws, to achieve confirmation of their provocative fabrication.

      I. V. Stalin* systematically called Tbilisi - directly to the MGB of the Georgian SSR RUKHADZE and to the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) of Georgia comrade MGELADZE and demanded a report on the progress of the investigation, the intensification of investigative measures and the presentation of interrogation protocols to him and comrade IGNATIEV.

      I. V. Stalin*, being dissatisfied with the results of the investigation, demanded the use of physical measures of influence against those arrested, with the aim of obtaining their confession to espionage and subversive work.


      https://istmat.org/node/26467


      you see Beria essentially blames Stalin, says that he did not figure it out, and it is strange that Beria kept silent about this until Stalin's death. Let's move on to the Doctors' Case, a serious case, the MGB organs revealed a gang of Jewish doctors who deliberately treated the Kremlin leaders poorly, some were arrested, some were shot and again after Stalin's death, Beria initiated the closure of the case with the reinstatement of everyone to their jobs with the official announcement that the confessions were obtained under duress.
      And the third point is the case against Molotov’s wife and her relatives, an open trial was being prepared, serious articles, and again, only Stalin died, Beria stopped the case.

      You understand that everything you write here is about the enemies of the USSR, who have been in power for 33 years, but according to your terminology, two out of three (Stalin, Beria, Khrushchev) should be enemies of the USSR. If you look at what Beria did after Stalin's death and if he had won the fight for power with Khrushchev, I think that he himself would have started exactly the same "exposure" of Stalin's personality cult.
    2. +3
      20 November 2024 14: 17
      You are enemies of the USSR... you are enemies of the communists-Bolsheviks... you are vile enemies of the Bolsheviks-Leninists... (c).

      Tatra, calm down for now. You've had enough of your standard enemies. Can't you think of anything else but cheap cliches? You're becoming simply ridiculous. Maybe you're sick? Or are you just an ordinary bot-provocateur whose goal is to cause disgust and sarcasm towards everything Soviet and its adherents? But you're definitely not a Bolshevik-Leninist, whom you're trying to impersonate!
      And to all adherents of the USSR, to which I count myself, I suggest recalling the aphorism of Jean-Jacques Rousseau:
      “Il est plus dangereux d'avoir des gens trompeurs et faux comme amis que comme ennemis. Dieu nous interdit d'avoir de tels amis. »
      Jean-Jacques Rousseau
      Translated from French: "It is more dangerous to have lying and false people as friends than as enemies. God save us from such friends (c)."
    3. 0
      22 November 2024 06: 00
      And it is an axiom that Soviet collective farms are the best form of agriculture - both in terms of agricultural productivity and for the majority of peasants - than it was before 1917 and became after 1991.

      Not true!
      Even according to my memories, things were "not so good" in the collective farms. Things were much better in the state farms.
      The reason for the emergence of collective farms is that the peasant is a petty bourgeois owner. He is not capable of buying a tractor or a combine. And it is impossible, right now, to change his consciousness so that he becomes a proletarian. We had to help him: create MTS, unite them into collective farms and provide credit. In order to credit the collective farmer, it was necessary to create an agricultural bank and remove the kulak.
  13. +3
    20 November 2024 10: 53
    Quote: big_fun
    Did the Bolsheviks really carry out a revolution and win the civil war in order to calmly watch the natural process of ruining the peasantry, watching the kulaks live in luxury - the process of the initial accumulation of capital?

    Any artificial acceleration of the development of society increases the role of the human factor, the increase in the role of the human factor increases the probability of errors, and, accordingly, the severity of the consequences of these errors. This is the price for a fast road to the unknown!
  14. +6
    20 November 2024 10: 53
    In general, I have nothing against collective farming, but it seems that humanity is not yet ready for such a way of managing property, our vices (greed, envy, avarice, etc.) are ruining this idea at the root. I was born in a village and saw a collective farm already in the 80s, at least in our area, collective farms had huge problems with storing the harvest, labor efficiency, well, what can I say, and the collective farmers carried from the collective farm to themselves, agreed with the combine operators so that he would pour out the grain in a certain place, the bees in the collective farm apiaries "carried" honey somewhere past, etc.
    And looking at the farm that emerged on the site of the collective farm, you can see a completely different level, there is a struggle for every grain and the attitude towards technology is like towards one’s own child, and the control is completely different.
    1. 0
      20 November 2024 10: 59
      And looking at the farm that emerged on the site of the collective farm, you can see a completely different level, there is a struggle for every grain and the attitude towards technology is like towards one’s own child, and the control is completely different.

      Try to get sick...you can't do without farm laborers. Only large rural enterprises can be competitive, not individual farmers...they can only ask for subsidies.
      And I don’t understand those people who buy farm products from individual farmers without sanitary and veterinary control.
      1. +7
        20 November 2024 11: 02
        Try to get sick...you can't do without farm laborers. Only large rural enterprises can be competitive, not individual farmers...they can only ask for subsidies.


        That's right, that's what I meant by a farm, a completely commercial enterprise with owners and hired labor.
  15. +6
    20 November 2024 12: 12
    What ignorant propaganda... bully 90 years behind the times...
    The author's extremely low level is amusing; he doesn't understand what he's writing...
    "In 1934, the collective farm-peasant sector used 441,4 million hectares, and state farms - 84,2 million hectares."
    "Thus, for collectivization, collective farms received a total of 336,2 thousand tractors, which they could use themselves or rent. Plus, we need to add to them 15,2 thousand combines and 19,5 thousand trucks in the MTS in 1934.
    State farms. In 1929 there were 9,7 thousand tractors. In 1934 - 82,7 thousand tractors."
    Tractors are needed to cultivate the land - trivial, but true. We calculate the load on one tractor in collective farms in 1934 hectares of land for cultivation:
    441 thousand/400 thousand=336,2 ha/tractor
    also for state farms:
    84 thousand/ 200 thousand = 82,7 ha/tractor
    author's conclusion:
    "It turns out to be an interesting statistic that collective farms had twice as many of their own tractors as state farms, and in total, collective farms had almost exactly four times as many tractors as state farms. The surprising conclusion is that tractorization entailed First of all, the provision of tractors to collective farms, that is, collectivized peasants."
    Those. by author: 1312 < 1018 request
    My conclusion is that the author is an illiterate graphomaniac... bully
    1. +5
      20 November 2024 13: 35
      Those. by author: 1312 < 1018

      Here everything is somewhat more complicated than a simple comparison. And the author's conclusion ("first of all, the provision of tractors to collective farms, that is, collectivized peasants.") may have been obtained by a strange method, but the topic is no less consistent.
      To understand this, we need to look not at the "hectare per tractor" indicator, but at the "tractor per farm" and "hectare per farm" indicators. Then it turns out that in 1929, on average, there were 26200/57000 = 0,46 tractors per collective farm, and 9700/3042 = 3,19 tractors per state farm. That is, half of the collective farms had no tractors at all. Therefore, preference was indeed given to supplying the latter, so that at least some mechanization would be present in each farm. In 1934, there were 1,44 and 17,44 tractors.
      The numbers that the author shows in the article are, again, on the author's conscience, mine are different. I'm too lazy to look for the sources of his numbers.
      Of course, one could say that why then did they continue to increase the number of machines in state farms instead of giving these machines to collective farms? The fact is that their development followed different objective paths - in state farms, land coverage was due to an increase in the area of ​​the farm, and in collective farms, due to an increase in the number of farms. For example, in 1935, a collective farm had an average of 443 hectares, and a state farm - 3129 hectares (versus 544 hectares in 1928). Therefore, no matter how you look at it, you can't leave them without tractors.
      1. +4
        20 November 2024 14: 00
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        but the topic is no less contradictory.

        what a complex philological construction - is it so difficult to fit an owl onto a globe? bully
        The problem is that 1000, that 1300 ha/tractor is VERY much! If we take the plowing speed of 0,5 ha/hour, that is 2000/2600 hours! If you plow for 20 hours, then that is 100/130 days, and the tractors also pulled combines, etc.
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        Therefore, indeed, preference was given to supplying the latter,

        which, by the way, is natural! State farms have higher marketability and they are state property! request
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        "hectare per tractor", but on the indicators "tractor per farm" and "hectare per farm".

        You are complicating things for no reason - you are not cultivating the farms, but the land...
        1. +3
          20 November 2024 14: 44
          Is it so difficult to fit an owl onto a globe?

          You are constantly looking for a stone in the bosom of your interlocutor. Why? Who is pulling what where?
          The problem is that 1000, or 1300 ha/tractor is a LOT!

          Yes, that's a lot. But if it became 1300, and it was, say, 2300, then we need to note the improvement process. This is exactly the case where mentioning trends is appropriate.
          PS in 1934, when converted to 15-horsepower tractors, it came out to 405,1 hectares per machine.
          which, by the way, is natural! State farms have higher marketability and they are state property!

          Apparently there was a misunderstanding here.
          , And state farm 9700/3042=3,19 tractors. That is, in half collective farms there were no tractors at all. Therefore, preference was indeed given to supplying latest

          The last to speak here are the collective farms. They were the ones we were talking about.
          State farms have higher marketability

          The problem is that their share in crops in 1928 was 1,5% (collective farms - 1,2%). And in 1935 - 12,2% (and collective farms - 82%). Therefore, their marketability can be as high as you like, but they did not provide the gross harvest. In fact, it's the same story as in the Russian Empire - the marketability of landowners' farms is higher, but ultimately there is more grain from the peasants. Because there are simply more of them.
          You are complicating things for no reason - you are not cultivating the farms, but the land...

          I complicate things only where simplification leads to misinterpretations.
          Just to avoid wasting time on the conversation, let's end with the fact that there was a hectare for every "horse"
          state farms:
          1930 - 8,1 ha/hp
          1934 - 9,1 ha/hp
          Change 1 ha/hp
          collective farms:
          1930 - 69,4 ha/hp
          1934 - 36,4 ha/hp
          Change 33 ha/hp
          Whatever you say 33>1
          1. +2
            20 November 2024 14: 54
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            as in the Russian Empire - the marketability of landowners' farms is higher, but ultimately there is more grain from the peasants.

            It's hard to agree - not peasants in general, but wealthy ones... request
            The marketability of the poor is zero, and that of the middle class is small...
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            1934 - 9,1 ha/hp

            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            934 - 36,4 ha/hp

            According to the author, the main support is for collective farms.... bully
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            Whatever you say 33>1

            One horse can plow, but a hp cannot... request
          2. +2
            20 November 2024 15: 01
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            And in 1935 - 12,2% (and collective farms - 82%). Therefore, their marketability can be as large as you like, but it was not they who provided the gross harvest.

            Quote: DrEng02
            441 thousand/400 thousand=336,2 hectares/tractor also for state farms: 1 thousand/312 thousand=84 hectares/tractor author’s conclusion:

            It is interesting, but from this data the contribution of state farms is less than the land share - 16%...
            1. +3
              20 November 2024 15: 11
              Quote: DrEng02
              It is interesting, but from this data the contribution of state farms is less than the land share

              Quote: A vile skeptic
              The numbers that the author shows in the article are, again, on the author's conscience, mine are different. I'm too lazy to look for the sources of his numbers.

              But it’s not even about the numbers, but about what I always say - people don’t understand what’s behind the numbers, historical statistics are a little more than 4 arithmetic operations.
              The author gives figures not for the sown area, but for the total area of ​​farms. This includes meadows, forests, lakes with fish, private farms, etc.
              It's hard to agree - not peasants in general, but wealthy ones...

              It will be easier if you take my word for it. Honestly, I don't want to waste time finding documents for you.
              according to the author, the main support is for collective farms...

              After my last message this should have become clear.
              One horse can plow, but a hp cannot... request

              I think you can figure out that there is a relationship between power and performance.
              1. +2
                20 November 2024 15: 49
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                I think you can figure out that there is a relationship between power and performance.

                I know it's not linear... bully
                1. +1
                  20 November 2024 16: 08
                  I know it's not linear...

                  See how good it is.
                  If only they could understand what I wrote, it would be wonderful. hi
                  PS
                  It's hard to agree - not peasants in general, but wealthy ones... request
                  The marketability of the poor is zero, and that of the middle class is small.

                  If we return to this question, then memory still allows us to quickly search for information in its deposits - according to the data that Nemchinov gives for the period 1909-1913, the gross commodity grain of the poor/middle peasants exceeded that of the landowners' farms by a third - 7,4% of the gross harvest against 5,6%.
                  1. +2
                    20 November 2024 16: 14
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    by a third - 7,4% of the gross collection against 5,6%.

                    these are crumbs relative to the main source... request
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    If you could understand what I wrote, it would be wonderful.

                    if you can't write clearly, complain to the mirror... request
                    1. 0
                      20 November 2024 16: 28
                      these are crumbs relative to the main source...

                      Here are your words - "not peasants in general, but wealthy ones..."
                      You were shown that more grain came not from the wealthy peasants, but from the landowners. There is no contradiction. Why make a fuss.
                      This is the first. The second is that the word "crumbs" is not appropriate. Because "crumbs" are equal to "not crumbs".
                      Gross collection - 100%
                      Domestic consumption - 74%
                      Commercial grain - 26% (landowners - 5,6%, wealthy - 13%, poor/middle peasants - 7,4%).
                      And you get that 5,6+7,4=13 - crumbs and, at the same time, 13 - not crumbs lol
                      you can't write clearly - complaints to the mirror...

                      I would be concerned if other people who interact with me had the same problem understanding me. Then I would certainly attribute it to myself.
                      1. +1
                        20 November 2024 16: 34
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Commercial grain - 26% (landowners - 5,6%, wealthy - 13%, poor/middle peasants - 7,4%).

                        you think incorrectly, they were talking about marketability! 50% of the wealthy, 21,5% of the landowners, the rest -28,5. So find the main source...
                      2. 0
                        20 November 2024 16: 45
                        You think incorrectly, you were talking about marketability!

                        Well, let's remember together
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        Therefore, their marketability can be as large as desired, but they were not the ones who provided the gross collection. Actually, it's the same story as in the Russian Empire - the marketability of landowners' farms is higher, BUT THERE IS MORE GRAIN IN THE END from the peasants. Because THERE ARE SIMPLY MORE OF THEM.

                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        GROSS commodity breadand the poor/middle peasants exceeded those of landowners' households by a third - 7,4% in GROSS collection against 5,6%.

                        The point was that the marketability of the GROUP by itself will not show the CONTRIBUTION of the group, since the CAPACITY of the group has an impact.
                      3. 0
                        20 November 2024 16: 47
                        wealthy 50%, landowners 21,5, the rest - 28,5.

                        Are these someone's numbers or the result of your calculation? I just can't understand what you are trying to say with them.
                      4. +1
                        20 November 2024 17: 10
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Are these someone's numbers or the result of your calculation?

                        I think I referred to your data, I just recalculated it taking the marketability (26%) as 100%.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I just can't understand what you're trying to say with them.

                        I want to say that 50+21,5=71,5% is the share of the wealthy and landowners in the total volume of commercial grain! That is, the main share from them...
                      5. 0
                        20 November 2024 17: 49
                        I simply recalculated, taking the marketability (26%) as 100%.

                        So I couldn't understand correctly.
                        Marketability is calculated for isolated producers. Otherwise, an error occurs again due to the different capacity of the group. Now you have it that marketability is higher with the organization of labor characteristic of wealthy peasant farms, compared to that of landowners. Although this is not true, it was higher for landowners. The average marketability of a group of farms with the same organization of labor and the relative value of the gross harvest of this group in the total harvest of all groups are not the same thing..
                        Given that below you yourself formulate it correctly - "the share of the wealthy and landowners in the total volume of commercial grain"
                        I want to say that 50+21,5=71,5% is the share of the wealthy and landowners in the total volume of commercial grain! That is, the main share from them...

                        Why say this? After all, the question was put differently:
                        the marketability of landowners' farms is higher, but ultimately there is more grain from the peasants.

                        It's hard to agree - not peasants in general, but wealthy ones...

                        This is a substitution of the thesis. request
                      6. +3
                        20 November 2024 18: 00
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Commodity is calculated for separate producers. Otherwise, an error occurs again due to the different capacity of the group.

                        ran in? This is a contribution to the marketability of each group of economic entities... bully
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This is a substitution of the thesis.

                        only for you... request
                      7. 0
                        21 November 2024 11: 55
                        ran in? This is a contribution to the marketability of each group of economic entities...

                        Oh-ho-honyushki
                        let me remind you
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        talked about marketability! wealthy 50%, landowners 21,5, the rest - 28,5.

                        The figures you cite, you initially called marketability, and not "marketability contribution". To which you were criticized for not seeing the difference between marketability and the relative size (share) of a group in the gross collection.
                        Would it be difficult to name the marketability for all manufacturers, and not by groups? Well, since "50, 21,5 and 28,5" is an indicator of marketability lol
                        only for you...

                        Well, why? I'm not the only one on this ball who can use logic.
                        When you find where in your phrase "It's hard to agree - not peasants in general, but wealthy ones..." landowners are mentioned, whom you started adding in order to pass off wrongness as rightness by any means (by substituting the thesis), then we will return to this issue.
                        In general, let's agree that if the essence of the conversation for you is to have the last word regardless of the argumentation, then from now on you just let me know right away. We can save each other a lot of time. I'm already at the age when I value it very much.
                      8. 0
                        21 November 2024 14: 53
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I'm already at that age where I value it very much.

                        And that's why you write uninformative foot-dragging? bully
  16. +7
    20 November 2024 14: 56
    I will not challenge any of the figures cited by the author, but I would like to introduce a small dissonance into these beautiful pictures. Once upon a time, at the end of the glorious Soviet times, I argued with my friend about who fed the Soviet Union in the distant pre-war and earlier years. And as a source of the required information, I cited figures from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia "second edition - red" (GSE), so according to the information provided there until 1938 (from my memory), our large country, as strange as it may seem, was fed by ordinary individual peasants, which somehow does not fit with the information provided here! It is unlikely that anyone here will undertake to classify the GSE as a book published by liberal or anti-communist forces. So, I am ready to listen to the author's objections to this authoritative publication!
    1. +3
      20 November 2024 15: 32
      our big country, as strange as it may seem, was fed by ordinary individual peasants

      The devil is in the details. In the case you described, what is possible in an agrarian country is impossible in an industrial one. For example, if 85 individual farmers can feed 15 workers and employees in addition to themselves, then 30 individual farmers will not be able to feed 70 workers and employees.
      1. +2
        20 November 2024 17: 12
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        30 individual farmers will no longer be able to feed 70 workers and employees.

        somehow farmers in the EU cope... although there are less than 5% of them request
        "Agriculture is based mainly on small family farming. A significant proportion of those employed on small farms are seasonal workers and other categories of temporarily employed workers whose main source of income is in other sectors of the economy. In the period 1994-1997, the share of agricultural land holdings exceeding 50 hectares increased from 11,9 to 14,3%. Larger farms are located mainly in Schleswig-Holstein and in the east of Lower Saxony. Small farms predominate in Central and Southern Germany. At the same time, there was a sharp decline in the number of people employed in agriculture, from 24% of the total economically active population in 1950 to 2,4% in 1997."
        1. 0
          20 November 2024 17: 27
          somehow farmers in the EU cope... although there are less than 5% of them

          Those who organize tractor races as soon as subsidies are cut? ))
          Two thirds of farms in the EU are less than 5 hectares. More than 50% of agricultural products are produced by only 3,3% of farms (industrial type (agroholdings)). And family farms are pastoral, no doubt about it. But they are useless from the point of view of food supply.
          1. +1
            20 November 2024 17: 41
            we read you:
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            What is possible in an agricultural country is impossible in an industrial one.

            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            Two thirds of farms in the EU are less than 5 hectares in size.

            Are there industrial countries in the EU? Farmers are less than 5%, but they feed them - conclusion? bully
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            Those who organize tractor races as soon as subsidies are cut? ))

            This is not the USSR, they would have dispossessed everyone there... request
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            But it's pointless from a food supply point of view.

            in the EU there is a crisis of overproduction of agricultural products... request
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            And family farms are pastoral, no doubt about it.

            Not only that - for example, they produce snails, cheeses, etc.... feel
            1. +1
              20 November 2024 18: 04
              Are there industrial countries in the EU? Farmers are less than 5%, but they feed them - conclusion?

              There is only one conclusion - a false dichotomy))
              This is not the USSR, they would have dispossessed them...

              Everyone has their own thing, but the lousy one talks about the bathhouse ))
              in the EU there is a crisis of overproduction of agricultural products...

              This is an indicator of the efficiency of industrial enterprises))
              In your case, 1% of home farms produce 0,5% of agricultural output, while 1% of agricultural holdings produce 15,5%.
              That's why there is overproduction.
              Not only that - for example, they produce snails, cheeses, etc....

              Excellent. It remains to be proven that industrial production of these types of products is inferior to farm production in terms of cost or productivity.
              1. +3
                20 November 2024 18: 14
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                There is only one conclusion - a false dichotomy))

                Not at all, you have given a false thesis! feel
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                that's about what, and the lousy one about the bathhouse))

                But weren't the wealthy owners in the USSR who produced 50% of the marketable grain dispossessed? According to Zemskov, 4 million suffered... request
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                You have 1% of home farms, the output in agriculture is 0,5%
                but the cost of good wine, snails, cheese and other delicacies is significantly higher... It was in the USSR that they sold rotten vegetables and fruits - don't you remember?
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                It remains to be proven,

                to whom and why? bully All the data is in the EU reports, the bureaucracy there is worse than in the USSR... bully
                1. +3
                  20 November 2024 19: 23
                  "but the cost of good wine, snails, cheese and other delicacies is significantly higher... It was in the USSR that they sold rotten vegetables and fruits - don't you remember?"
                  We always had shrimps in the Soviet times and they cost pennies. But they were not bought, most likely they had no idea that it was a delicacy, I do not understand wine, I remember that there was a lot of it. There is no cheese now, real cheese can be produced in Altai and then only in four districts, earlier until the mid-90s it was still there, then and now it is not there, I think and will not be. At one time I treated the Japanese and Americans to it on a business trip, the only question was where I got it. When you talk to them, they always start their song that they have goods from all over the world and how I can surprise them, I was able to, but these were echoes of the Soviet times. About vodka, alcohol, yes, it is important, but vodka is a mixture of water and alcohol and the water must be appropriate, very soft, then it is drunk like juice. It is clear that the amount drunk will have an effect, but you will have to drink at least twice as much normal vodka. Now we don’t make it here either, only one plant could produce it, but its license was revoked, the market, competitors.
                  1. 0
                    21 November 2024 14: 51
                    Quote from Etwas
                    I don't understand wine, I remember there was a lot of it.

                    It seems you were very young in the USSR request
                2. 0
                  21 November 2024 12: 29
                  Not at all, you have given a false thesis!

                  Of course not.
                  It becomes false when it is taken out of context and put into other conditions. Did I do it? No. You did it.
                  but really...

                  ...your words are an argument for - "which [farmers] organize tractor races as soon as subsidies are cut?"?
                  That's why it's written, "Everyone has their own thing, but the lousy one has a bathhouse."
                  in the USSR, wealthy owners produced 50% of commercial grain

                  In an alternate reality? How else to explain the figure 50%.
                  but the cost of good wine, snails, cheese and other delicacies is significantly higher... It was in the USSR that they sold rotten vegetables and fruits - don't you remember?

                  1) I will know that the price affects the nutritional value of the product or its yield. And in the classical theory, the price is higher for goods whose supply is insufficient ))) But these are the little things in life, don't pay attention.
                  2) I remember that when talking about production, they don’t jump to distribution.
                  to whom and why?

                  1) me
                  2) to confirm your hints
                  1. 0
                    21 November 2024 15: 01
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    1) me
                    2) to confirm your hints

                    Quote: DrEng02
                    All the data is in the EU reports,

                    if you need to, dig in...
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    That's why it's written, "Everyone has their own thing, but the lousy one has a bathhouse."

                    decided to be rude again or show your stupidity once again? Let me remind you that any attempts by peasants in the USSR to defend their rights were considered counter-revolution and were brutally/bloody suppressed... Decided to dance on the bones? am
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    1) I will know that the price affects the nutritional value of the product or its yield. And in the classical theory, the price is higher for goods whose supply is insufficient )))

                    Once again, empty talk and a public demonstration of one's own narrow-mindedness... request I'll let you in on a secret - reread your answers - you think you're showing off your intelligence and knowledge - I'll disappoint you! request
                    1. 0
                      21 November 2024 16: 01
                      decided to be rude again

                      Well, if you take idioms literally when addressed to you, then I don’t even know what to say to that.
                      Let me remind you that...

                      ...this cannot serve as an argument for my specific text
                      Again empty talk and a public demonstration of your stupidity... I'll let you in on a secret - reread your answers - you think that you are showing off your intelligence and knowledge - I'll disappoint you!

                      says the person who joined the thread like this
                      Quote: DrEng02
                      We calculate the load on one tractor in collective farms in 1934 hectares of land for cultivation:
                      441 thousand/400 thousand=336,2 ha/tractor
                      also for state farms:
                      84 thousand/ 200 thousand = 82,7 ha/tractor

                      and which uses tractors to cultivate meadows, forests, lakes and buildings. After all, the author clearly stated "for the use of the collective farm-peasant sector"
                      The usual story is: “all people are like people, and I am the queen.”
                      Would you mind sharing a revelation - where did I take your phrase out of context?

                      You don't see what is written in what you copied
                      Quote: A vile skeptic
                      In the case you described - what is possible in an agrarian country is impossible in an industrial one.
                      1. 0
                        21 November 2024 16: 36
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Well, if you are idioms

                        as the classics say - a shy thief, and you, it seems, are a shy boor?
                        I would like to point out that after your idioms you still haven’t responded to my direct question:
                        Quote: DrEng02
                        Let me remind you that any attempts by peasants in the USSR to defend their rights were considered counter-revolution and were brutally/bloody suppressed... Have you decided to dance on the bones?

                        How does your idiom look in this context?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        and where tractors cultivate the meadows,

                        You'd be surprised, they do this! For example, they improve them! And most importantly, they mow the grass in the meadows with tractors - didn't you know? bully
                        I understand that any excuses are allowed! bully
                        But you don’t know how to think, that’s why you get into trouble... bully
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You don't see what is written in what you copied

                        Only in your fantasies, you answered the phrase:
                        "so according to the information provided there before 1938 (from my memory) our big country, as strange as it may seem, ordinary peasants, individual farmers, fed them, which somehow doesn’t fit with the information provided here!”
                        Then you got smart about industrial countries and now you're running! bully
                      2. -1
                        21 November 2024 17: 56
                        and you seem to be a shy boor

                        It's simpler, consider rudeness in an idiom - it's an attempt to play the "humiliated and insulted" card. A childish technique in disputes.
                        I would like to point out that after your idioms you still haven’t responded to my direct question:

                        1) I note that you were told why
                        2) When you make such claims, first reread whether you have answered all the direct questions yourself and whether you have ignored anything. Otherwise, it may turn out awkward.
                        You'd be surprised, they do this! For example, they improve them! And most importantly, they mow the grass in the meadows with tractors - didn't you know? bully
                        I understand - any excuses are allowed! bully
                        But you don’t know how to think, that’s why you get into trouble...

                        Oh-ho-honyushki
                        1) Works that were mechanized in the 30s: spring plowing, raising fallow land, re-plowing fallow land, plowing for winter crops, raising stubble, raising virgin soil, harrowing, cultivating and disking, stubbling, sowing spring crops, sowing winter crops, harvesting grain, harvesting sunflowers, harvesting corn with pickers, harvesting beets with beet lifters, flax pulling.
                        2) Are lakes, forests and buildings (which you, with your eyes downcast, decided not to notice) also "improved by tractors"? wassat
                        Only in your fantasies, you answered the phrase:

                        Uh-uh, yes. This phrase is the "described case".
                        That's what I said and it applies to him. And you, from the described conditions, switched to modern conditions of Europe, while ignoring what was said about subsidies, specific weight, etc. That's how agroholdings will disappear in the EU, they will remove subsidies, then you will be able to compare whether farmers will provide the same level of supply and prices, without transforming back into agroholdings.
                      3. 0
                        21 November 2024 18: 05
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This is how agroholdings will disappear in the EU,

                        In other words, do you run? bully
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Oh-ho-honyushki

                        Exactly - your foot wraps only confirm... hi
                        So tractors didn't pull hay mowers across the meadows?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) I note that you were told why

                        This is not an answer - this is a digression... I wonder - what is your clinical Russophobia connected with? request
                        And to have more than 4 million people dancing on the mountain during collectivization is just a clinic... request
                        The author is understandable - stupid and uneducated...
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        A childish technique in disputes.

                        To argue with you is to disrespect yourself... request
                      4. 0
                        26 November 2024 15: 02
                        In other words, do you run?

                        No. I am only showing your manipulation with the substitution of initial conditions.
                        Exactly - your foot wraps only confirm this... hi
                        So tractors didn't pull hay mowers across the meadows?

                        In the 30s, when in the middle of the second five-year plan you had two tractors for three collective farms (there are even calculations above) and those in the MTS?! You were told what work was mechanized during this period based on real annual reports of collective farms and MTS, and not on the collective farmer's handbook of the 3s. Horse-drawn mowers in the 40s were still pulled by horses.
                        This is not an answer - it is a digression.

                        No. This is ignoring an attempt to change the subject of conversation.
                        I wonder - what is your clinical Russophobia connected with? request
                        And dancing on the mountain of more than 4 million people during collectivization is just a clinic... request

                        lol They played their trump cards - an appeal to personality and an appeal to emotions. And they were sucked out of a finger ("sucked out of a finger" is an idiom, my note).
                        To argue with you is to disrespect yourself...

                        Your self-esteem is not my problem, really.
                      5. 0
                        26 November 2024 15: 35
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        appeal to personality and appeal to emotions.

                        A personality without emotions is impossible! And if you like the author's message - collectivization made stupid collective farmers happy with tractors, and that someone died of hunger and in exile - that's sacks, then carry your cross or a poster..... hi
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This is ignoring an attempt to change the subject of conversation.

                        you are funny and you are self-harming... request
                      6. 0
                        26 November 2024 16: 12
                        Personality without emotions is not possible!

                        I only stated two specific manipulations based on specific logical errors:
                        argumentum ad hominem - appeal to personality
                        argumentum ad passiones - appeal to passions (emotions)
                        Therefore, your expression about crosses and posters will remain unnoticed.
                        you are funny and you are self-harming...

                        It goes without saying.
                      7. 0
                        27 November 2024 12: 22
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Therefore, your expression about crosses and posters will remain unnoticed.

                        I don't really care - I understand who you are, essentially request I have always been amused by the suffering of a certain public over the exterminated tens of thousands of Bolsheviks in the mid-1930s and the complete denial of the suffering of millions of peasants at the beginning of the same decade... for me, this is a marker of Russophobes... feel
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It goes without saying.

                        so - for the sake of purity of the experiment - what is the subject of conversation? hi
                      8. 0
                        27 November 2024 12: 31
                        this is a marker of Russophobes...

                        and the "marker" of a witch is red hair and green eyes wassat
                      9. 0
                        27 November 2024 13: 18
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        and the "marker" of a witch is red hair and green eyes

                        I wasn't interested - read The Hammer of the Witches... request
                  2. 0
                    21 November 2024 15: 03
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    It becomes false when it is taken out of context and placed into other conditions.

                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    In the case you described, what is possible in an agrarian country is impossible in an industrial one. Let's say that 85 individual farmers can feed 15 workers and employees in addition to themselves, but 30 individual farmers will not be able to feed 70 workers and employees.

                    Quote: DrEng02
                    somehow farmers in the EU cope... although there are less than 5% of them

                    Would you mind sharing a revelation - where did I take your phrase out of context?
  17. +3
    20 November 2024 18: 53
    Quote: Olgovich
    Collectivization: What are they trying to hide from us?
    No one tried to hide everything written by the author - about these wasted The enormous material and labor resources spent were trumpeted as achievements from 1930 onwards.

    But the authorities were bashfully silent about the results of this bacchanalia. But the results are impressive:

    - in the USSR in 1930 happened 13 mass peasant uprisings (including 453 insurgent), 176 open armed uprisings, millions of peasants came out, who were brutally suppressed by the OGPU and the army,

    -mass starvation deaths of millions with cannibalism precisely in the areas of accelerated collectivization,

    -a sharp decline in food consumption and production, and why then were the Kolkhls created?

    -crop yields are low from 1913 to 1956, except 1937

    - a decline in the number of cattle compared to 1913 to the 1950s

    - the slave state of the peasants, who were forced to pay TRIBUTE (Stalin), working practically for free, the mass flight of peasants from the village by any means

    - gigantic crop losses, etc., up to 30% under snow, in mud, on threshing floors, etc. - everything is all wrong.

    --50% of livestock products, etc. were produced on... private farms of peasants-collective farms in full.

    - destroyed hundreds of thousands of SNPs in the 1930s, through the forced resettlement of peasants to the estates

    -in 1953 less grain was collected than in 1913 - that's the result

    What's the point of plucking pieces of history out of touch with the general development of the peasantry in Russia? If you listen to you, there was grace before. And the peasants did not rebel or flee. Name an era when this did not happen. Please... Peasants, as the main producing class, have always been robbed at all times. And the great reformer, the builder of the fleet and industry, and the capitalists, remember. Who was engaged in the destruction of the peasant community and the Bolsheviks with their industrialization. And the peasants did not only have economic problems. There was also Nikon's reform. The Tolstoyans also all fled. And the three peasant wars, this is not the Tambov Uprising. And the negotiations of Peter the First with the Cossacks about the extradition of fugitives. Now if you had written that the oppression of the peasants flourished about the Bolsheviks. It would have been more accurate.
    1. -1
      20 November 2024 20: 28
      Quote from Etwas
      What is the point of plucking pieces of history out of touch with the general development of the peasantry in Russia?

      FACTS are given about the complete uselessness and criminality of collectivization, what pieces?
      Quote from Etwas
      earlier. there was grace. and the peasants

      compared to collective farms, yes, it's a blessing
      Quote from Etwas
      If you had written that the oppression of peasants flourished under the Bolsheviks, it would have been more accurate.

      I wrote - serfdom - reincarnation.
  18. +2
    20 November 2024 18: 59
    Consequences of collectivization, industrialization and repression. Over 12 years, demographic losses of 12-14 million people.
    1. 0
      20 November 2024 19: 32
      And how many Old Believers were burned, maybe there are figures too? And in general, Lomonosov once wrote that at the turn of 2000 there would be 360 ​​million Russians, maybe you can explain this incident by the loss of 12-14 million from repressions or our rulers systematically and constantly, just victories in wars under tsarism were worth something..., I'm not even mentioning how many peasants were exterminated simply because of the whim of numerous "Soltychi"
  19. 0
    20 November 2024 20: 18
    You can talk a lot about the necessity or uselessness of collectivization, but without it, we would never have won the war. Do you think that a private owner would have fed the country during those years? Nikita Khrushchev, willingly or unwillingly, did a lot to discredit the collective farm movement in our country. But now we all see that private farms standing on the land in our country have a tendency to enlarge and create agrofirms. Working on the land alone is simply not promising and it is financially and physically difficult.
    1. 0
      21 November 2024 17: 38
      Quote from: odisey3000
      Do you think that a private entrepreneur would have fed the country during these years?

      Look at WW1 - they fed us well, the problems were with the delivery, not the production of food, and in 1917 there was obvious sabotage by the administration... request
    2. -2
      22 November 2024 10: 02
      Quote from: odisey3000
      You can talk a lot about the necessity or uselessness of collectivization, but if it hadn’t happened, we would never have won the war. Do you think that a private entrepreneur would have fed the country during those years?

      as a result of collectivization there was LESS food - remember this FACT
      1. 0
        23 November 2024 16: 42
        ... but there are MORE weapons - remember this FACT laughing
  20. +2
    20 November 2024 20: 36
    Quote: Olgovich
    I wrote - serfdom - reincarnation.

    Just think about what serfdom is, including the right to execute, sell, exchange, give away, whoever and whenever you want, and collectivization is already a type of exploitation at a new turn of history with major concessions. And the exploitation is no longer personal, but state, it is not the same thing.
    1. 0
      21 November 2024 06: 06
      In general, serfdom is simply a ban on frequent changes of profession. A peasant could always enlist as a soldier and become a military man, like Menshikov became a general. The serfs simply had the duty to feed, shoe and clothe the military man who protected them from the wild Crimean Tatar or Bashkir hordes in the 17th and 18th centuries. Before the advent of rifled weapons, the serfdom system was an effective state machine that allowed Russians living in a harsh climate to create a viable state. In the 20th century, when a person is required to quickly retrain, the caste or collective farm-serfdom system is destructive.
      1. 0
        22 November 2024 06: 58
        In general, serfdom is simply a ban on frequent changes of profession.

        Serfdom is a form of slavery.
        Of course, it cannot be denied that serfs had a large number of rights. Such as being beaten, or even beaten to death. Being sold. Being separated from family. The wonderful right to have sexual relations with their masters.
        A peasant could always enlist as a soldier and become a military man, like Menshikov, who became a general.

        Of course he could! All he had to do was visit the MFC and get a tear-off coupon. By the way, Menshikov was not a serf.
        The collective farm-serf system is destructive
        No, seriously, what a mess you have in your head.
    2. -1
      22 November 2024 10: 00
      Quote from Etwas
      Think for yourself what serfdom is.

      and you will learn what it is.

      for the 20th century, what they echoed with the peasantry is simply wild
  21. 0
    21 November 2024 05: 58
    Beautiful pictures in an article on economics are a sign of its anti-historicity or the author's attempt to fool or deceive his readers. This is not an article about weapons or medieval castles! If the author had provided a table of grain production per capita in the 20th century and its export and import by the USSR and Russia, this fact would have immediately refuted all the conclusions from the author's analysis.
  22. +1
    21 November 2024 12: 24
    The main problem is that they broke it over the knee and many still remember that crunch.
  23. -1
    21 November 2024 22: 12
    Quote: Timofey Astakhov
    Tell me, was the famine of the early 30s also in the people's plans?

    You took the question right out of my mouth! Thank you! The article is laudatory. The figures are mind-boggling, and there was no room in the article for the famine of the 1930s. I am not an enemy of my people, but I know for certain that my father was left an orphan in a large family at the age of 3 because of hunger. None of my relatives on my father's side were left alive. Not the backwoods. By modern standards, the Central Federal District. Author, can you imagine yourself an orphan at 3? No roof over your head. No heat, no light at night. No clothes, underwear, shoes, hats. Nothing to eat or drink. There was total hunger in the village. No food, no wash. But in spite of you with your tractors, combines and MTS, he survived! Now I understand how bad and difficult it was for my father. But he did not break! I never talked about it. Orphanage, FZO, etc. If karma exists, I wish you and your relatives to experience this at the age of 3 and not be eaten (cannibalism). I am not an evil person, but such smart guys deserve it. And then write an article about the famine of the 1930s and personal impressions.
    1. 0
      22 November 2024 07: 12
      Reading Wikipedia, 19th century. There was a famine:
      1822, 1833, 1840, 1842, 1873, 1880, 1883, 1891, 1892, 1893.
      And no Bolsheviks with their collective farms.
      1. 0
        22 November 2024 11: 29
        Quote: big_fun
        There was hunger:
        1822, 1833, 1840, 1842, 1873, 1880, 1883, 1891, 1892, 1893.
        And no Bolsheviks with their collective farms.

        There is a clear decrease in the frequency of hungry years with the abolition of serfdom and an increase in the frequency of hungry years with the development of capitalism, when it became profitable for landowners to sell grain abroad.
        1. 0
          28 November 2024 10: 18
          There is a clear decrease in the frequency of hungry years with the abolition of serfdom and an increase in the frequency of hungry years with the development of capitalism, when it became profitable for landowners to sell grain abroad.

          Is it clearly traceable? Are you sure? It would also be necessary to take the straits from the Ottomans, for duty-free sale of wheat abroad. Oh, how everything would have grown! Then it would have been possible not to overthrow the Tsar?!
          However, you are absolutely right! With the development of productive forces, the threat of famine receded. But I am right too. With the development of capitalism, it became absolutely impossible to preserve the monarchy. Was it possible to stop there and do without the Bolsheviks? If not for the War, then yes. I believe that the development of the SVO will still show us that the arming of the broad masses of the population will inevitably raise the question: Whose power is it here?
          1. 0
            28 November 2024 13: 16
            Quote: big_fun
            It would also be necessary to take the straits from the Ottomans, for duty-free sale of wheat abroad. Oh, how everything would flourish!
            If landowners owned land and it was cheap to transport grain for sale to Europe, there would be constant hunger in Russia. Partly, it was the construction of railways connecting Russia with Europe that provoked hunger in Russia. In the same way, Chubais sold electricity 4 times cheaper to China and to oligarchs for aluminum smelting and declared that it was unprofitable to sell a lot of energy to private individuals and small businesses. By the way, in Chubais's structures, the cost of a permit to connect the Interskol power tool plant to the power grid in the south of the Moscow region was higher than the construction of a new plant in China with all the permits.
            Quote: big_fun
            I believe that the development of the SVO will still show us that the arming of the broad masses of the population will inevitably raise the question: Whose power is it here?

            Arming the people allows to get rid of especially insolent parasites very quickly. Perestroika was carried out by FSB officers and prosecutors in the hope that they would be able to govern the country better than the communists and would get a great opportunity to milk not only the people but also business. Now in Russia there is a competition to see who will more effectively free the people from the oppression of the opportunity to milk not the common people but business.
  24. -1
    22 November 2024 08: 42
    Quote: gsev
    In general, serfdom is simply a ban on frequent changes of profession.


    Well, yes. There's no point in working for yourself alone. Five days a week - work for the master all day long (corvée). And the rest of the time - so be it, feed yourself with your labor, if you still have strength left. Not life, but a free ride! laughing

    Well, if the Tsar-father ordered the master to send the serf to the army (for 25 years) or to work in a state-owned factory - then you definitely won't change your profession. Pull the strap until you get a stroke...
    1. 0
      22 November 2024 11: 36
      Quote: Illanatol
      And the rest of the time - so be it, feed yourself with your labor, if you still have strength left. Life is a breeze!

      The same goes for the Soviet collective farm or state farm. In the village of Sibirovka between Tambov and Michurinsk, they worked on the collective farm for sticks that gave them the right not to be exiled to Siberia or shot for sabotage. And in the evening, on the garden plot, so as not to die of hunger, which only the most resourceful could do. The lazy poor in Stalin's collective farms died of hunger if they were not lucky enough to become leaders and not survive due to the death of kulaks and middle peasants. By the way, all the activists in Sibirovka died during the Great Patriotic War, when the state did not give any concessions to any of the collective farmers.
  25. -1
    22 November 2024 08: 48
    Quote: gsev
    A peasant could always enlist as a soldier and become a military man, like Menshikov, who became a general.


    Menshikov, by the way, came from a noble (gentry) family. A serf peasant could rise to the rank of general only in bad fantasy stories.
    1. 0
      22 November 2024 11: 43
      Quote: Illanatol
      A serf peasant could rise to the rank of general only in bad fantasy films.

      In the USSR, a person with kulak roots could not rise to the rank of colonel, even if he served on Novaya Zemlya. Although this information was voiced by the special officers only if they knew someone well, just before retirement, regretting that the person had wasted his time not knowing about the mark in his personal file about his relatives, the rebels and kulaks. Of course, it would not be a trivial task for the son of a former kulak or kulak to enter a military school of naval aviation instead of a vocational school, but people from the village of Sibirovka managed to do it.
  26. -1
    22 November 2024 08: 54
    Quote: Aleks24lion
    But in spite of you with your tractors, combines and MTS, he survived! Now I understand how bad and difficult it was for my father. But he didn't break! He never talked about it. Orphanage, FZO, etc.


    Of course, MTS and combines prevented your ancestor from surviving. Just like FZO, orphanages and so on. Well, two hundred years ago, when all this did not exist, it was, one must assume, much easier for orphans to survive. Or do you think that orphans appeared exclusively under the Bolsheviks, that this is an innovation of only Soviet times?

    It's strange... but it was precisely after the collapse of the USSR that the number of homeless children, of which there were practically none during the Soviet era under Brezhnev, became much, much more, and there are plenty of witnesses to this.
    Well, as Anatoly Borisovich (who is Chubais) liked to say - "the costs of the democratization process."
  27. 0
    22 November 2024 12: 47
    Quote: gsev

    In the USSR, a person with kulak roots could not rise to the rank of colonel even if he served on Novaya Zemlya.


    In the USSR, a descendant of a noble family who graduated from the cadet corps in Tsarist Russia, rose to the rank of general, ended up in a Nazi concentration camp, where he died heroically.
    His name was Dmitry Mikhailovich Karbyshev.
  28. 0
    22 November 2024 12: 52
    Quote: gsev
    The same goes for a Soviet collective farm or state farm.


    But when collective and state farms began to be dispersed (during the "democratic reforms"), collective and state farm workers did not always willingly leave them. They were not completely dispersed and on their basis agrofirms were created, which still produce the majority of agricultural products.

    Well, who really cares about the conditions under which seasonal migrant workers work? So put your crocodile tears aside. Unconvincing.
  29. 0
    22 November 2024 14: 14
    Quote: Illanatol
    Of course, MTS and combines prevented your ancestor from surviving. Just like FZO, orphanages and so on. Well, two hundred years ago, when all this did not exist, it was, one must assume, much easier for orphans to survive. Or do you think that orphans appeared exclusively under the Bolsheviks, that this is an innovation of only Soviet times?

    It's strange... but it was precisely after the collapse of the USSR that the number of homeless children, of which there were practically none during the Soviet era under Brezhnev, became much, much more, and there are plenty of witnesses to this.
    Well, as Anatoly Borisovich (who is Chubais) liked to say - "the costs of the democratization process."

    This is my father, not your empty talk. I was never interested in what it was like under Tsar Pea. I didn't live at that time. Under Brezhnev, my father was already, as they say, in office. Let me remind you, an orphan. Without any connections or support. All by his own labor. Not with words, but with concrete actions. After graduating from the factory school, the boy was appointed a foreman for the construction of Finnish houses. It worked! The family no longer had problems with food. The article talks about thousands of tractors and combines in the 1930s. There are propaganda photos. But there are also other photos, when women plow the land on their own during the war. "I am a woman, I am a bull. I am a horse, and a man!" That's roughly what they said in those terrible years. Where did hundreds of thousands of tractors and combines disappear to in 10 years? The same picture was observed after the war. When I first read about the famine in 1947, my eyes popped out of my head, because before that I had definitely read about food aid to occupied Germany. There, the Germans allegedly complained about the lack of marmalade. This was a country that had lost the war! Was there a famine there? By the way, I didn’t fall from the moon. Within the limits of my competence, I personally saw what it was like in the village, in an ordinary city, in Moscow, in the buffet of the Grand Kremlin Palace, in the army. I also wish for you to experience what my father experienced at the age of 3. Not out of spite, but out of fairness. I hope that they will hear me and understand.
  30. 0
    23 November 2024 08: 54
    Quote: Aleks24lion
    I was never interested in what it was like under Tsar Gorokh. I didn't live at that time. Under Brezhnev, my father was already, as they say, in office. Let me remind you, an orphan. Without any connections or support. All by his own labor. Not by language, but by concrete deeds.


    But it would be useful to live and compare, to clear your head. You don't care about your ancestors, you're not interested in how they survived before, so why should anyone care about the details of your family's biography?

    I doubt that "under Tsar Pea" your father would have held office, despite all his hard work.
    All by his own labor, yeah... and in the orphanage (organized by the Soviet government) he paid for a roof over his head, food, the work of educators - with his own cash? And for education at school, vocational training - also from his own pocket? Or did all these benefits form themselves and not cost a penny?
    And his specific deeds had value only as an integral part of social work as a whole.

    Conduct a thought experiment: send your dad or yourself to an uninhabited island - how much would you achieve "by your own personal labor"? Would you at least be able to avoid starving to death in a month or two?
  31. 0
    24 November 2024 06: 03
    The solution is for small and very small peasant farms
    gradually but steadily, not in the order of pressure, but in the order of showing and
    beliefs, to unite into large farms on the basis of public, comradely, collective cultivation of the land

    But in reality, all collectivization took place under pressure and at the barrel of revolvers and rifles...
    In fact, in the 30s, a slave-serf system was introduced for the peasants...
  32. 0
    24 November 2024 10: 55
    I don't know what they want to hide, but I see that few people understand the main tasks of collectivization. Of the 220 comments (as of "now"), only 6 mention the term "labor productivity" and only one of them is about agriculture. But several criticize "labor productivity".
    So here it is:
    In 1913, approximately (and further approximately) 145 million rural population (with children) collected 50 million tons of grain;
    In 1928, 121 million rural population harvested 50 million tons of grain;
    In 1937, 108 million rural population harvested 70 million tons of grain;
    And, for reference (war, what have you done, you vile thing):
    In 1945, 70 million rural population collected 25 million tons of grain - explanation: from 21 million able-bodied people in agriculture in 1940, in 1945 there were 13,5 million left, and there were many times fewer men, even those shell-shocked and crippled (both of my grandfathers, for example).
    And so, the conditional (since for the entire population, including infants and only for grain) labor productivity in agriculture increased by 60%, which made it possible to free up about 10 million peasants for industrialization, which (industrialization) in general made it possible to survive and win the war.

    I repeat the goals:
    1. increasing labor productivity
    2. liberation of the people for industrialization
    3. improvement of working and living conditions based on the previous points.
    The destruction of individual farms, kulaks, increasing education, creating machine and tractor stations, collective farms, reorganizing land management, etc. are tools
  33. 0
    24 November 2024 22: 18
    The destruction of small plots seemed to be a plus for tractor farming. The minus was the equalization and lack of motivation to work better and more efficiently. Which ultimately led to the outflow of population to the cities, the degradation of collective farming, a drop in the birth rate and, ultimately, to the banal extinction of Russians. I don't give a damn about apple trees on Mars.
  34. 0
    27 November 2024 06: 09
    Purchases of grain from abroad and economic growth during the NEP proved the utopian nature of universal collectivization, and we also have an example of the development of agriculture abroad. And I also remember the shortages and queues.
  35. 0
    29 November 2024 06: 29
    State structure, ideologies should be based on reason, on science! Stalin was guided, where there was none, such as law with repressions, he developed sciences. Putin relies on the fight against reason, against science! He is not guided, but destroys, the same repressions against minors, as a result of the destruction of the court, law. With agro-complexes, with lands, everything is at the start for transfer to the owners from the West!