Military Review

Tank T-90MS: Analysis of the main characteristics and possible ways to further improve the combat qualities

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This material by G. Malyshev is given in the order of discussion from the point of view of the average man and does not pretend to any profound military scientific knowledge. Since some of the points in this publication look controversial or superficial, we asked the armored vehicle technician to briefly comment on the statements of the author.


In the recent past, Nizhny Tagil tank the plant released a new model of the main battle tank called the Tagil T-90MS. The tank immediately attracted attention with interesting technical solutions that were not previously used on mass-produced domestic vehicles. It looks very impressive and modern - the design, although not from the Pininfarina studio, was definitely a success. The tank can claim the right to be considered one of the most powerful tanks in the world today.

It would be very curious to analyze the design of this tank as far as possible. Find out what the designers did right and what did not, and what further improvements are possible in the design of this interesting machine.

Brief characteristics of T-90MS are as follows:

Dimensions:
- Mass 48 tons.
- Length 9530 mm.
- Width 3780 mm.
- Height 2228 mm.

Armament:
- The gun-launcher 125-mm 2А46М-5 or 125-mm 2А82 - the main fighting means of the tank, designed to destroy all types of ground, surface (within reach) and low-speed air targets. Ammunition 40 artillery shells of various types: BOPS, OFS, KS or guided missiles (UR) 9K119М Reflex-M.

- 7,62-mm 6P7K machine gun (PKTM), paired with a cannon. It is designed to combat the enemy manpower, which is within the angles of fire of the main armament. The machine gun is paired with a gun and has the same firing sector. Ammunition 2000 of 7,62mmx54R cartridges of various types. This weapon is installed in a completely new tower of circular rotation with a developed zabashhennoy niche.

- Remotely controlled machine gun installation T05BV-1 with 7,62-mm machine gun 6P7K (PKTM). Designed to fight the enemy's manpower, which is sheltered or higher than the main artillery shelling sector, for example, on the upper floors of buildings, on steep mountain slopes. Either below the sector of shelling of the main armament, in shelters, dugouts, or directly at the tank in the so-called. "Dead zone" for a tank gun and a machine gun paired with it. Thus, according to the designers, the combat stability of the tank should be ensured in cramped and urban combat conditions. Ammunition 800 of 7,62mmx54R cartridges of various types.

Fire control, surveillance and target detection systems:
- Fully digital, highly automated automated control system “Kalina” with integrated BIUS. Thermal and television devices intended, including, for circular observation.

Security:
- Multi-layer combined armor of the latest scheme in the frontal part.
- Spaced booking in the side section.
- The latest built-in dynamic protection "Relic".
- Local protection of ammunition.
- Activities that reduce the thermal and noise signature of the tank.

Mobility:
- Multi-fuel diesel engine V12 В-92С2Ф2 with power 1130л.с. (831kW) + automatic transmission.
- Power supply ~ 23l.s./t.
- Maximum speed 60-65 km / h on the highway.
- Power reserve 500 km.

The tank was created on the basis of previous modifications: T-90A and T-90С. Now let's understand in more detail what differences we see on this machine. What immediately catches the eye can be listed by points:

1. New tower with a developed feed niche.
2. New 125-mm gun 2A82.
3. New dynamic protection "Relic".
4. The complex of active protection of the KAZT “Arena-E” tank is absent on the tank.
5. The set of optical-electronic suppression of the CEP "Blind" on the tank is missing.
6. Finally, the tank received a normal rigid armored hull, the “Relic” generously “arched” with elements of dynamic protection (DZ) and latticed screens in the rear part.
7. Anti-aircraft gun with a large-caliber 12,7-mm machine gun NSVT sunk into oblivion. It was replaced by a new machine gun with an 7,62-mm 6P7K machine gun.
8. Somewhat more powerful engine In-92C2F2 + automatic transmission.
9. The tank received an additional power unit in an armored container, mounted in the rear of the hull on the left.
What else can you say about this car?
1. The case, like the previous modifications, mainly remained from the T-72.
2. The chassis also does not show significant differences from the T-72.
3. The new “Kalina” SUO is clearly superior to the 1А45Т “Irtysh” of the T-90А tank.
Now we will try to analyze all these points. What was done and what could theoretically be done in my opinion. So, let's begin.

Comment specialist. The sample of the upgraded main battle tank T-2011С shown at the REA-90 weapons exhibition was primarily aimed at foreign customers, therefore, part of the systems mounted on it was for export. In this regard, I would like to point the author to the fact that the 125-mm 2-82 cannon is not put on the export tank, the 2-46-5 gun is installed on it.
As for the dynamic protection kit, 4C22 elements are installed on this tank, since 4C23 is not allowed for export.
The author complains in vain about the lack of an active protection system for the Arena-E tank, as it can be installed upon the customer’s request. Similarly, at the customer's request, the TShU-1-2М system can be installed. In addition, the upgraded T-90С is equipped with the SPMZ-2E electromagnetic protection system (SEMP) from mines with magnetic fuses.

About the power unit. While on the tank put the engine B-93 power 1100 hp There is no automatic transmission (automatic transmission), but there is an automatic gearshift.


New tower with a developed feed niche

As done. At first glance, the tower looks vulnerable compared to the T-90A or T-72B towers. Most likely, this is the case. The T-72B and T-90A towers were of relatively small size and special shape. The stern vulnerable part of the tower was narrowed and closed with a powerful armored front part within course angles ± 30º. And even such towers managed to punch from the RPG and ATGM into the most vulnerable feeding zones. Needless to say, getting into the aft or onboard part of the T-90MS tower, which is the size of the Leopard-2 or Abrams tower, is not a problem at all. Thus, in terms of security, the aft part of the T-90MS tower is inferior to the security of the towers of all previous tanks of the T-72 model line.

It would seem - a clear regress? By no means. The fact is that the result of penetration of the stern or rear side of the T-72B tower, very often, was a fire or detonation of the ammunition set (BC) and, respectively, partially or completely dead crew. It's all about the location of the BC: in all T-72 series tanks, as well as in T-90, T-90C and T-90А only 22 shots of separate cartouche loading are located under the combat compartment (AM) of the carousel type This carousel, in contrast to the loading mechanism (MH) of the T-64 and T-80 tanks, is relatively well protected: in front of the most powerful frontal armor of the hull, in the back - by the engine, from the sides - supporting rollers and side screens. In addition, the terrain screen itself rarely allows you to hit a tank in the lower part of a regiment of combat.

The problem was mainly in the placement of the rest of the BC. These 23-26 shots with projectiles or SD were located literally everywhere: on the floor, on the walls of the hull, and practically throughout the entire rear hemisphere of the tower. The limited internal space of the T-72 tank simply does not allow placing this firepower that does not fit into the AZ carousel, somewhere else. As a result, this "non-mechanized" ammunition most often ignites or detonates - this is how lucky you are (it is not yet known what is worse).

You can argue, they say, on old tanks T-34-85, KV-85, T-54, T-55, EC-3 and T-10, the ammunition kit was located approximately the same. In this case, the comparison is inappropriate. The ammunition of these tanks consisted of unitary shots. The powder charge was placed in a metal sleeve and the fire hazard of these old machines was incomparably lower. And the charges in the partially burning T-72 sleeve are ready to flare from any contact of the cumulative jet.

The way out of this situation can be like this - do not take into battle that part of the ammunition set, which is located in a non-mechanized ammunition. But then you have to rely only on those 22 shots that are in the carousel AZ. Often they did. But this, of course, does not suit either tank crews, or self-respecting designers. The problem was finally solved in the T-90MS tank: the roundabout on the 22 shot was left, additionally protecting it with local reservations, and the remaining 18 shots were placed in the stern niche of the tower, providing it with expelling panels like the Abrams and Leopard-2. If desired, these 18 shots can also not take with you. In the context of urban combat, it will probably be better to do so.

As a result: in spite of the fact that the T-90MS tower has become more vulnerable to enemy fire than the predecessor towers - T-72B or T-90А, the survivability of the tank, and more importantly, the crew survival rate, has become incomparably higher. The level of survivability of the T-90MS and the survival of its crew in the event of a tank defeat in principle began to correspond to Western tanks. Another plus of such a tower is greater comfort and greater internal space of the habitable compartment of the tank.


Stern niche of the tower T-90MS


How could it be done. Apparently, no way. If you do not take into account any extravagant innovations, then other technical solutions to this tank are not suitable. The old Soviet layout with the placement of the whole BC, along with the crew, has become obsolete. And to place the whole BC in the feed niche following the example of “Abrams” from a certain point of view is unwise and within the limits of the given mass in 50 tons it is practically unrealizable. So off.

Comment specialist. The author is greatly mistaken in drawing conclusions about the decrease in the security of the turret of the new tank. The tower projected onto the plane still provides protection within the course angle 30 degrees, and from the stern it is securely closed with an armored box.
In general, the combat compartment of the upgraded T-90С tank, including the turret, is far less vulnerable than its predecessors. In other words, the whole paragraph about the new turret of the tank contains a lot of reasoning about the one that does not exist.
Refinement on the location of the ammunition. The 22 shots automatic loader, 8 shots in non-mechanized installation at the MTO partition and 10 shots in an armored box isolated from the fighting compartment at the stern of the tower.

New 125-mm gun 2А82

Tank T-90MS: Analysis of the main characteristics and possible ways to further improve the combat qualities

As done. The most powerful 125-mm smoothbore gun of the latest design 2А82 is a completely new development. It is believed that this gun is significantly superior to the previous 125-mm guns of the 2А46 series, the 122-mm threaded 2А17 and 120-mm NATO Rhinemetal guns with 44 and 55 barrel calibers. 2А82 surpasses them both in accuracy and in power of fire. The same applies to the Chinese 125-mm cannon tank ZTZ-99A2 (Type-99A2), which is only an improved "pirated" version of 2A46. However, the former 90-mm gun 125А2М46, which is installed on the T-5А, can apparently be installed on the T-90MS. From this we can conclude that the tanks with the new 2А82 cannon will be supplied to the Russian army, while the 2А46М5 will be equipped with tanks for export. At the same time, knowing the realities of today, it is possible that everyone will do exactly the opposite.

How could it be done. Numerous experimental electrochemical and electromagnetic guns have not yet reached the stage of their installation in a real tank, so we immediately discard them. Alternatively, one could install a new 90-mm or 140-mm cannon on the T-152MS (for example, from an “292 object”). But, in addition to technical difficulties, this could provoke Western countries to a similar modernization of their tanks, which means a new round of the caliber race. So at this stage we decided to develop the 125 mm caliber, which has not yet fully revealed its full potential. A 140-152 mm gun left in reserve. Offset

Comment specialist. It is completely incomprehensible how suddenly the author describes the possibility of installing a 2А82 gun on export tanks. I repeat that this gun is incompatible with ammunition with 2А46 modifications and is prohibited for export.

As for the powerful 152-mm 2А83 guns, which the author proposes to install on the T-90, this is impossible.


New dynamic protection "Relic"

As done. Dynamic protection of the new generation "Relic" refers to the built-in type DZ. It increases armor resistance to cumulative ammunition 2 times and 1,5 resistance to sub-caliber armor-piercing shells. Front and top DZ closes the tank tightly and without gaps. The weakened zones near the gun are also closed by elements of the DZ. The roof over the hatch of the driver is also closed. This is set off. But there is also a "fly in the ointment": the bottom frontal sheet does not have it. This miscalculation - in the lower front sheet of the tank can be pierced. The T-72B had at least one NDZ contact-1 row. The T-90MS has nothing, although theoretically it is possible to install hinged screens on hinges.

Next - the hull board. It is closed to the MTO itself, as well as that of the T-72B, and then the grid screen goes. T-72B had only rubber-fabric screens, therefore this solution is not better than T-90MS. I will explain. The T-72B and T-72 rubber-fabric screens simply initiated the explosion of a cumulative warhead (warhead) of a rocket-propelled grenade at some distance from the main board armor (70 mm). The lattice screen breaks down the body of a rocket-propelled grenade or an anti-tank guided missile, they collapse against these sharp grates. A warhead may not work at all.

The side of the tower - things are not so good. At T-72B, the tower was closed to a DZ to half the length. The role of protivokumulyatnyh screens of the rear hemisphere was played by boxes of spare parts and accessories of OPT. The T-90MS tower is large and long, there is no DZ on the sides of the aft niche, and in fact there is an ammunition. Another vulnerable area is the hull's stern sheet and the back of the tower. There were cases when a rocket grenade that hit the stern sheet of the hull penetrated the MTO right through the engine and hit the fighting compartment of the tank, and there people and ammunition. It is not noticeable that the designers paid at least some attention to this important aspect of protection on the new T-90MS. In terms of resistance to impact in the rear of the hull, it is no better than the base T-72 "Ural".


How could it be done. To protect the tower and the body along the entire perimeter, including the lower frontal part of the body, with elements of the Remote Device "Relikt". It will increase the mass of the tank slightly, but the defense will become much stronger, and most importantly - from all sides, which plays a huge role in urban battles. In general, despite the clear progress, an unambiguous offset can not be put. Although a clear failure too.

Comment specialist. As for the alleged "miscalculation" of designers who did not protect the lower frontal part of the case. I inform the author that NLD accounts for less than one percent of hits - even from the experience of fighting in a flat desert area. At the same time, the elements of dynamic protection installed on the NLD are definitely damaged when performing any prolonged march off-road.
The author’s statements about the tank’s vulnerability to hitting the side and the stern of the turret do not correspond to reality at all. DZ blocks on the sides of the tower cover the entire projection, and the armor box securely closes the stern.


The complex of active protection of the KAZT [1] "Arena-E" tank is absent

As done. On the newest T-90MS there is no KAZT, and after all similar systems were installed on old T-55AD and T-62D tanks. Sadly, such a necessary tank complex is missing.

How could it be done. Install the latest KAZT on T-90MS. Expensive? The cost of a T-90MS tank exploded from an ATGM or RPG is even greater, not to mention the lives of tankers. No

Comment specialist. Again, I repeat: this is a question for the customer. If there is an order for equipment, a full-fledged KAZT will be installed on the tank without any problems: for the Russian army this is “Afghan”, and for export deliveries - “Arena-E”. Both complexes are mated with Kalina.


A set of opto-electronic suppression COEP [2] "Curtain" on the tank is missing

As done. On the T-90MS there is no CEP “Blind”, although it is on previous models T-90, T-90А, T-90С and even on Iraqi T-72М1. And here it is not. Meanwhile, the thing is useful because it significantly reduces the likelihood of the guided missiles entering the tank.

How could it be done. Install on the tank KEPA "Blind-1". Only not instead of elements DZ, as unsuccessfully made at T-90А, and on them. No

Comment specialist. Same as above: upon request of the customer, this system is installed on the tank without problems.


Hard armored bulwark of the case with elements of DZ "Relic" and lattice screens

As done. At last, our tank received a normal hard armored bulwark, besides generously “flavored” with elements of dynamic protection. This is not the case either on previous versions or on T-72B tanks.

In order to create something up-to-date, you need to catch the correct trend, “where the wind blows,” so to speak, and then attach a ruler to this correct vector and extend the line by 10 lengths of this vector. An example is the heavy tank EC-2. How did it come about? Our designers caught a tendency to increase the caliber of tank guns: from 45 mm to 76 mm and, subsequently, to 85 mm, and from the Germans from 50 mm to 75 mm and, finally, to 88 mm. Without following the saying “an hour a teaspoon”, but simply taking and attaching a ruler to this vector and “extending” it, they immediately put a powerful 122-mm gun, which provided the EC-2 with simply overwhelming superiority in firepower over any tank of the world period

But, unfortunately, this correct approach to design, for some reason did not spread to the onboard screens. I will explain to the reader the meaning and purpose of the onboard screen. Its essence is that the screen initiates the operation of a cumulative warhead at such a distance from the main armor ,. when her piercing power drops sharply. If the screen is rigid and metallic, it also reduces penetration and kinetic ammunition, as it can change the angle of contact of the projectile with the main armor, tear off the “Makarovsky tip” from it, or simply damage the core. Hard steel screens of armor 10-20 mm thick appeared even during the Second World War on the German tanks Pz.IV and Pz.V "Panther", the British "Churchill" and "Centurion". They were on the domestic tanks T-28 and T-35. Since then, our western neighbors have not rushed to abandon them.

Paradoxically, but the fact is that despite the fact that on domestic tanks (T-28 and T-35) these screens appeared in step with the times, their further use and elements of their design in domestic combat vehicles followed a dubious path of development. While most Western tanks had developed and fully “adult” onboard screens, which were already an integral part of their spaced-out booking, we did the same.

On the post-war T-54, T-55 and T-62, there were no side screens at all. All of their onboard reservations consisted of the actual armored hull board with a thickness of 80 mm, which was somewhat shielded by relatively large support rollers. Thus, these types of tanks were an easy target even for the first-generation RPGs. On the EC-3M and a series of powerful tanks of the T-10 family there were such “germs” of onboard screens, which only slightly covered the side from above.

Next - a new generation T-64A tank. On it were six “skinny”, turning “vents” with dubious effectiveness. It was the same at the first T-72. The next stage of the long-suffering path of development of onboard screens of domestic tanks appeared on the T-64B, T-72A and T-80. They finally got a solid 10-mm side screen, BUT - rubber-fabric! It is clear that such screens with a small gain in weight compared with metal, almost do not protect against kinetic shells, it is very easily damaged and torn off, exposing the low-armored side of the hull. After a few touches of obstacles or hits (and the tank as a whole), I don’t even talk about how such a screen looks.

The next stage of evolution - tank T-72B. It has the same rubber-fabric screen as the T-72, but the 4C20 elements of the “Contact-1” dynamic protection elements (up to the MTO zone) were hung over the entire area. This greatly enhanced the protection of the onboard projection of the T-72B tank. But not everything is as good as it seems: the weight of the resulting structure turned out to be a large, thin rubber-cloth screen that bends under the weight of NDZ blocks. After two or three hits from an RPG or an ATGM, all this “economy” can simply fall off with all the ensuing consequences.

On the T-64BV introduced power screens under the side elements of NDZ. This appearance has improved, strength - almost none.

Finally we come to the "flying" tank T-80U. He received an almost normal onboard screen - 10-mm armor with built-in elements of dynamic protection "Contact-5". Why "almost"? Because all this “wealth” reaches only half the length of the corps, and even the vulnerable T-80U combat pack does not overlap with a fully powerful screen. Next to the stern is the same rubber screen, as in the T-72A or T-80.

The T-90 series is generally a regression and a return to almost T-72. Instead of the relatively normal T-80U, T-72B and T-64BV on-board screens, the T-90 has the same screen as the T-72A, and six such “squares” of armor with dynamic protection “Contact-5” - three each board And they do not close the middle of the case opposite the ammunition, which would be logical, but its front part. Strange construction. When the enemy is everywhere, turn his forehead to him will not work.

And now, finally appeared T-90MS. He has a normal armored side screen with grilles in front of MTO. All right


How could it be done. Everything was just as necessary, but it had to be done FORTY years ago - on the T-72 Ural tank! But still - Offset


Old British tank "Centurion". Steel side screens 16mm thick do not bend and make the appearance of this tank "powerful" and quite decent. Good example


The anti-aircraft installation with a large-caliber 12,7-mm NSVT machine gun was taken by a new remote installation with an 7,62-mm machine gun 6П7К

As done. The design of domestic medium and main battle tanks is interesting because with the continuous improvement of the quality of the main weapons, there was no progress at the auxiliary. Auxiliary weapons remain virtually unchanged for decades. The period of searches and experiments in this area for medium tanks remained in the distant past of the military and pre-war years. From T-55 to T-90, auxiliary armament consists of an 7,62-mm machine gun paired with a cannon and an anti-aircraft gun with an 12,7-mm machine gun on the turret roof. Of course, this scheme is outdated and needs to be changed.

On the T-90MS, such an attempt was made, but it was unsuccessful. At the cost of abandoning a large-caliber anti-aircraft installation, the designers tried to adapt the tank to combat in urban environments and to ensure the possibility of an effective fight against enemy manpower, primarily with grenade launchers. To do this, instead of 12,7-mm machine gun set more "smart" and maneuverable anti-personnel machine-gun installation with 7,62-mm machine gun and very large vertical angles of guidance.

What happened? With regards to the zenith component. The tank T-72B in the event of an air threat had at its disposal two echelon of air defense:

1. Long range - provided by guided missiles, allowed to fight with helicopters and other low-speed air targets, the range from 1,5 – 2 to 4 – 5 km.

2. If the target broke through to closer, then a short-range echelon came into play - an anti-aircraft gun with a 12,7-mm machine gun NSVT "Rock". He operated at ranges up to 2 – 2,5 km. Everything is quite logical. The T-90A had an even more advanced remote-controlled anti-aircraft gun, similar to the T-64 and T-80UD.

But the T-90MS tank this "short-range" was cut off, which, without doubt, worsened its protective anti-aircraft properties. To cause any serious damage to the modern attack helicopter, and even more so to bring it down, a 7,62 mm bullet is unlikely. But, maybe, now the tank will successfully fight the enemy infantry nestled in the urban jungle? Also no. The main problem of the tank in such a situation - to see in the window opening of the enemy. At the landfill, the living force is simulated by bright and multi-colored balloons that hang in the window openings. It is not difficult to guess that a real grenade thrower will not flaunt in a window opening with a grenade launcher at the ready before the barrel of a tank gun aimed at him. He will hide next to the window, behind the wall and look out occasionally, being sure that the crew of the tank does not see him, and wait for a convenient moment.

Now, they have not yet invented any devices capable of seeing x-ray through concrete walls, so there’s only one way out for the tank - to shoot a high-explosive fragmentation projectile into the empty window where the enemy is supposed to be. Sometimes it helps when they guess, but there will not be enough ammunition to shoot through all the windows, doors and hatches. There is still a way to shoot a machine gun at a wall next to a window or under a window sill. If an enemy is hiding there, he will be amazed. But for this bullet must pierce the wall of the house. Can this be done by a 7,62-mm bullet of a coaxial machine gun or anti-personnel installation of a T-90MS tank? Hardly. And that means almost no sense from it. But 12,7-mm bullet from NSVT is quite capable of this. Conclusion: The new remote install looks beautiful, but - No


How could it be done. The main battle tank T-64А “grew” from the medium tank T-64, which, in turn, was a revolutionary machine, which absorbed the latest advances in design and industry, as well as the best technical solutions of Soviet medium and heavy tanks.


The T-10M is a cold and precise death machine. The most powerful tank in the world of the period 50-x - the beginning of the 60-ies of XX century. It was about the size of an “Abrams” and possessed an optimal combination of high mobility, powerful armor protection and enormous firepower with a weight of 51,5 tons


Why did I suddenly mention heavy tanks? Because a very powerful and perfect tank was in service with the Soviet army for a long time, a meeting with which in battle for any other tank of that time would most likely be the last. His name is T-10M. Powerful, 52-ton handsome, released in the number of 8000 units and stood in service with the Soviet army for about 40 years. This tank had a lot of technical solutions, which distinguished it favorably from medium-sized tanks and from the main battle tanks too (including T-90MS).

The auxiliary armament of the T-10M consisted of an 14,5-mm KPVT machine gun paired with a cannon and one more of the same in an anti-aircraft installation on the roof of the tower. Armor-piercing 14,5-mm bullet B-32 from the distance 500 m calmly penetrates the armor with thickness 32 mm. The total rate of fire of both machine guns - 1200 shots per minute. This allowed the T-10M tank to “cut” in half any BTR or BMP without any problems, even without using the main 122-mm M-62-T2C cannon. The concrete walls of houses and shelters such machine guns also punch "with a bang."

Thus, T-10M with regard to firepower was completely adapted to combat operations in the city. If necessary, he could "saw through" the wall across the floor, where the enemy could hide. These same machine guns had to be put on the T-90MS. At least one - in the anti-aircraft installation on the roof. For the machine gun coupled with a gun, there is a good alternative - the 12,7-mm machine gun YakB-12,7 from the attack helicopter Mi-24В.


Installing USPU-24 with 4-barrel 12,7-mm machine gun YakB-12,7


This machine gun gives out 5000 rounds per minute and is air cooled — this is what T-90MS needs. If there was one such 12,7-mm “lawn mower” in the tank and a powerful 14,5-mm KPVT machine gun in an anti-aircraft gun, the issue of air defense and operations in dense urban areas for T-90MS would have been resolved. With an independent vertical guidance system paired with an 125-mm 2-82 cannon, the 4-12,7-barrel X-machine gun of the YakB-12,7 tank will have all the qualities of the widely advertised BMPT and will not lose the main advantage of the tank - a powerful gun. By the way, BMPT is not the first car of this class in the world. If we analyze - T-28 and T-35 are direct ideological ancestors of the BMPT.

Comment specialist. A lot of words for nothing. Let it be known to the author: in addition to the PCT, the 90-mm machine gun and the 12,7-mm AGS grenade launcher can be supplied to the remote installation platform of the upgraded T-30 tank, depending on the wishes of the customer. Moreover, the digital ballistic tract of the Kalina OMS allows replacing the armament of a remote installation in field conditions, depending on the assigned tasks.


More powerful B-92C2F2 engine with automatic transmission

As done. The engine produces power 1130 hp, which is 130 hp more than the previous T-90A tank (1000 hp). Initially, it was rumored that the engine would be power 1200 hp, but to achieve it, apparently, did not succeed. The engine has a pleasant, smooth sound operation and provides T-90MS power density 23 hp / t. The maximum speed of the tank on the highway - 60-65km / h. This is not bad, but not the best indicator. To match the saying “armor is strong and our tanks are fast ...” T-90MS should accelerate at least to 70-75km / h. A lighter tank should be faster than heavy, western ones. And in order to bring the mobility indicators of T-90MS to the level of T-80, he doesn’t even need an engine, and, most likely, it will be enough to redo the transmission. For example, the tank T-80BV with a mass in 43,7 tons and engine power 1100 HP Accelerates to 80 km / h. What prevents the T-90MS from traveling in the same way? The engine is normal. So you need to improve the transmission.

How could it be done. The limited amount of MTO tank T-72 makes increasing engine power challenging. The same applies to the hull of the T-90MS, which is a direct heir to the T-72. It is necessary to improve the transmission of the tank, which was done, and to choose the right gear ratios. So all the same - Set off.

Comment specialist. The installation of the B-93 engine, despite the increase in the mass of the upgraded tank, increased its power density to 23,5 hp / t versus 21,5 hp / t in T-90А and T-90С tanks. The planned installation of the В-99 engine will give an even greater increase in power density (up to 24,5 hp / t). As for the alleged "automatic transmission", I wrote about it above.



Additional power unit in armored container
Body almost identical to T-72
Chassis is almost identical to the T-72

As done. These three points are summarized in one paragraph, because they are the result of one - too small volume of the T-72 case. The firepower, protection and mobility of the modern MBT has long since “grown” from the dimensions of the T-72. In the photo T-90MS from the side you can see how the large heavy tower literally hangs over the small tank hull, how the equipment hung on it behind the hull that did not fit inside. What does this entail? Here's what:

1. The driver is, in fact, trapped. Its hatch is very small, a gun and a wedge of armor of the tower hangs from above. If something happens - do not get out.
2. The driver’s observation devices had to be positioned not on the roof of the hull, but in the cutouts of the VLD, thus creating a weakened zone - a “decollete” near the hatch.
3. Powerful engine does not deliver - no place.
4. The fuel tanks (part) and auxiliary power unit are outside the armored hull. Obviously, all this is extremely vulnerable to enemy fire.
5. The short six-axle chassis has a load limit and is already approaching a reasonable limit on such an important parameter as the specific pressure on the ground. In a word fat No

How could it be done. Let's go back to T-10M. Its body had an ideal shape with a wedge-shaped nose, curved side walls and large dimensions. A soft, semi-support suspension is also available.

The design of the hull and undercarriage of the T-10M tank allows you to:
1. Install complete tower T-90MS.
2. Position the front plates at very high angles and, at the same time, equip a large and convenient driver's hatch through which he can always get out at any position of the gun.
3. The shape of the walls with curved walls greatly enhances its resistance to the effects of various ammunition and, at the same time, leaves the volume reserved niches for the placement of fuel tanks, electronics or auxiliary power unit.
4. Large-sized MTO allows you to install a powerful engine + auxiliary unit.
5. The seven-suspension chassis allows you to withstand weight in 60 tons and more. So the reserves of the T-10M modernization are very wide. It remains only to add rubber bands to the support rollers.


The lower part of the housing T-10M. It is clearly visible how the hull sides are made.


The drawings of the T-10M probably remained. It will hardly be very expensive to revive it in a modern form. In any case, everything will pay off quickly. The second option is to follow the path of the “187 object” - an improved modification of the T-72B. That is just to slightly extend the regular hull of the T-72 tank. By the way, the Chinese went along this path, as a result of which one of the most powerful tanks in the world appeared today - ZTZ-99А2. Equipped with a 125-mm cannon, guided missiles, this Chinese tank ZM-87 is a very dangerous enemy. It is better to overestimate than to underestimate. To fight with him on T-72B is unlikely to work, but on T-90A or T-72BM it will also be oh, how not easy. The days of Damansky are long gone - it is time for the leadership of our armed forces to understand this.


The Chinese main battle tank ZTZ-99A2 is one of the most dangerous opponents for our tank. Unlike the T-90MS, the Chinese look proportionally and not so heavy. It is longer than the T-72, although the Chinese are smaller in height and weight than we


The first version with the T-10M case, in my opinion, still looks more progressive. On the "Type 99" and "object 187" and asked seven-bearing chassis.


The “187 Object” is larger than the T-90A and much more spacious. That, in theory, should have been the base tank T-90 "Vladimir"


Comment specialist. On this point, I consider commenting the flight of thought of “sofa designers” unproductive. This layout is over 50 years old! Here every thesis strikes with deep ignorance. Although, however, for a simple man in the street it would be excusable.


New fire control system "Kalina"

As done. The Kalina SUO clearly surpasses the 1A45T Irtysh system of the T-90A tank: a complete set of thermal imaging devices, automated guidance weapons taking into account all sorts of data including bending of the barrel of the gun, automatic target tracking and much more.
The difference from the T-90A is that the gun can be induced by a not-yet-visible target according to the data of the tank information control system (TIUS). As soon as the target appears in line of sight - the next second shot! Another important aspect is that the OMS is fully computerized. In order to equip a tank with new ammunition, for example, it is not necessary to reconfigure the sight. Simply update the firmware of the LMS and all things conveniently and quickly. However, the missile system remained the same - 9K119М “Reflex-M” with a range of 5 km. This is no longer enough.

For example, guided missiles of the tank “Merkava” Mk.IV - LAHAT have a launch range of 6 – 8 km. Thus, a powerful Israeli tank for the first time surpassed domestic tanks "in their sandbox." The presence of guided missile weapons (URO) has always been an advantage of domestic tanks over Western ones that did not have [3]. Now everything has changed. For separation from competitors on the T-90MS, it is necessary to install a universal anti-aircraft anti-tank missile system with dual-mode guidance. Semi-automatic for firing at tanks and purely automatic (“shot-forgotten”) for firing at aircraft. As for the firing range, it should be at least 10 km (especially for Zour).

In addition, it is unclear how the T-90MS will fight the ZTZ-99A2. After all, an attempt to measure the distance to it with the help of a laser rangefinder will end with a response T-90MS irradiation with a powerful laser setup and instant failure of all optics (it will darken). What will happen next - I think it is clear. Against this background, the statements of some authorities have a ridiculous look, they say - "we are not going to fight with China." All this is reminiscent of the Chamberlain Pact. And if they get together with us, gentlemen? The laser machine ZM-87 is often referred to as “inhuman” weapons. It can damage the sight of the gunner and tank commander. Yes, inhumane, but it is even more inhumane to send people into the battle against the newest XT of the 21 century, people on the 40 technology developed a year ago. This is really inhumane!

On modern tanks, the gunner and the commander observe the target through color monitors. So the laser system of the Chinese tank can not harm their eyes. But it will only damage the tank's optics, and even then, if it does not have special anti-laser filters. Are there any devices on T-90MS? I do not know, but if not, it is urgent to install. Otherwise, the meeting with the “Chinese” will end badly, very badly. And it would not hurt T-90MS to have a combat laser system similar to the Chinese tank ZTZ-99А2.

In general, the LMS and other electronics of the T-90MS are of course modern, but nothing special is visible in it. Unambiguous offset can not be put. However, the failure too.


Comment specialist. As for the author's reasoning about the lack of firing range of the Reflex complex in 5 km, I would like to remind you that the direct vision range on 95% of the terrain of a Central European theater does not exceed 2,5 km.

I can only say one thing about anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles for a tank with a range of 10 km: this is another thesis within the framework of the trend of dense ignorance. Well, about the statements about laser weapons and their effects - the author urgently learn a school course in physics.



Conclusion: The T-90MS is a good, fit modern tank and can be considered one of the most powerful in the world. However, unfortunately, he doesn’t really pull on the compliance with the loud epithet “breakthrough”. Maybe it's the price of the tank. But there are things that can not be saved. Modern weapons of this class simply can not be cheap. The optimal “hodgepodge” of the world's best main battle tank looks something like this:
- body and chassis from T-10M
- tower and side screens from T-90MS
- 125-mm gun 2А82
- 12,7-mm twin machine gun YakB-12,7 from the Mi-24В helicopter
- charger (remote) with 14,5-mm KPVT machine gun from T-10M
- gas turbine or diesel engine with power> 1500 HP
- additional power unit (inside the T-10М case)
- automatic transmission
- DZ "Relikt" around the perimeter.
For "gland" like this.

As for electronics, the following systems should be installed on the tank:
- The complex of active protection of the tank "Arena-E"
- The complex of optical-electronic suppression "Blind-1"
- Universal anti-aircraft anti-tank missile system (UZPTRK) with a launch range> 10 km. Guidance - dual-mode (automatic / semi-automatic), as on the Ka-50/52 helicopter. Missiles can be either universal, or there should be two types of them - SAM and ATGM.
- Fighting laser system, similar to the Chinese tank ZTZ-99A2. It is very important. Plus filters on optics to protect against such systems.
- The system of psycho-physiological monitoring of the state of the crew. It is not a secret that in battle a person can be simply scared. He may also experience other negative emotions: anger, rage, confusion, hysteria, etc. All of this has a negative effect on its combat capability, or even can lead to death. In the new tank you need to mount a special powerful computer that matches intellectual suits and helmets of tankers. Sensors located in them inform the computer about what emotions a soldier is currently experiencing. A computer, in turn, should use special pulses to massage certain areas of the human cerebral cortex through sensors mounted on the head, completely removing harmful emotions that are completely unnecessary to him in battle. The system must be under the control of the tank commander with the ability to turn off and on as desired.
- Means allowing the tank crew to see the enemy through concrete walls. A sort of "X-ray". The fact that it can be harmful to the health of the enemy, there is nothing terrible - this is the enemy. The system is necessary to ensure effective combat operations of tanks in the city. This is the next epoch after the appearance of thermal imagers.
- Devices that provide at least commander visibility on the principle of "glass cabin".
- The system of electromagnetic protection from mines, reducing heat and radar visibility, aerosol and smoke screen.
- It must be possible to control the movement of the tank in battle by the commander with the help of a joystick. This will reduce the crew crew to two people. Commander and gunner. In this case, the workplace of the driver is left as a backup in case of a break in the joystick.
- CIUS integrated into the tank's SLA. It should be common to tanks, helicopters, attack aircraft, radar and air defense systems. This will allow tankers to see the approach of the enemy for many kilometers. aviation and aim your missiles at it in advance.

A “stuffed hodgepodge” of the T-10М / 90MS with a mass of ~ 55-60 tons in a similar way will be an order of magnitude greater than any existing and prospective battle tank of a potential enemy. Yes it will be expensive. Even more. But if this is not done, then the entire foreseeable future will have to fight on the "ageless" T-72B:


The famous T-72B. The coolest and battle tank of the end of 20-th - the beginning of the 21-th century. But today he is like Mike Tyson - still fighting, but many are already beating


Comment specialist. Regarding the proposals on the composition of the “hodgepodge”, “iron” and other conclusions, it is better to refrain from commenting at all, if not to say even worse.


Notes:
[1] KAZT using small-sized radar detects ammunition flying up to the tank, after which it is knocked down by counter fragmentation ammunition. Basically effective against relatively slow ammunition - cumulative shells, rockets and RPG grenades. Does not respond to bullets, shrapnel and small-caliber shells.
[2] Works as an active jammer. In 3-5, the probability of hitting a guided missile with a semi-active laser guidance system in a tank decreases.
[3] Guided missile weapons were hitherto available only on domestic tanks. Recently, they acquired Chinese and Israeli tanks.
Author:
Originator:
http://otvaga2004.ru
125 comments
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  1. dastan13
    dastan13 14 March 2013 09: 43
    +1
    Of everything that is written and the photos I saw, I have one question:
    What will the crew do in case of failure of one of the modules (especially optics)?
    1. Krilion
      Krilion 14 March 2013 15: 18
      0
      Quote: dastan13
      Of everything that has been written and the photos seen, I have one question: What will the crew do if one of the modules (especially the optics) fails?


      I am also interested in this question, because judging by the video reports from Syria, all these optical bells and whistles will live in city battles for no more than a day ... snipers will increase all these glasses perhaps even faster ...
      1. the47th
        the47th 15 March 2013 11: 16
        +3
        Letting a tank into a city battle without harming tank dangerous means first is an inadmissible luxury. What a paradox: earlier tanks would have been worse protected from guns, and almost ideally from small arms. Now the tank can withstand the ATGM hit, but it can be disabled from the rifle.
      2. Dmitry Belyaev
        Dmitry Belyaev 21 June 2019 07: 37
        0
        And tanks sniper snipers. Once at a time.
  2. Slevinst
    Slevinst 14 March 2013 09: 57
    +3
    expert comments are very scarce especially the latest, thanks for the article, I want to
    1. I think so
      I think so 14 March 2013 22: 59
      +4
      I would also like to add about the comments of the "specialist" ... The impression is that he is not a specialist at all, if he cannot reasonably explain his position, but confines himself to a "transition to personalities" of the type: "... strikes with dense ignorance ...", "... sofa constructors ... I think it is unproductive ..." and so on ... A professor who does not know how to explain to a cleaner what he does is not a professor, but emptiness ... so here too ...
  3. Slevinst
    Slevinst 14 March 2013 09: 58
    0
    expert comments are very scarce especially the latest, thanks for the article, I want to
  4. bright
    bright 14 March 2013 10: 12
    +3
    There is a good alternative for a machine gun coaxial with a cannon - a 12,7 mm YakB-12,7 machine gun from a Mi-24V attack helicopter.

    YakB-12,7 in Afghanistan was famous for having a large percentage of failures. But PCT did not fail. Regarding KPVT it would be really not bad.
  5. kotdavin4i
    kotdavin4i 14 March 2013 10: 15
    +1
    Some of the comments of the "specialist" are incomprehensible - for example, about the shape of the hull and the seven-wheel suspension.
  6. qwert
    qwert 14 March 2013 10: 20
    0
    But you can in more detail about the new weapon A82 ????
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 March 2013 14: 31
      +1
      It’s just interesting how they were able to so sharply increase their power. There was no news about new ammunition and taking them into service. The caliber is the same barrel length.
      1. viktor_ui
        viktor_ui 15 March 2013 08: 38
        -4
        Kars - how could they sharply increase the power of the navel without new supplies and lengthening the length .... yes it is very simple! Turbo boosted and all things wassat
      2. the47th
        the47th 15 March 2013 20: 13
        0
        If they talk about the adoption of new ammunition, then they mean exactly the shell. The propellant charge remains in the shade, so they could silently increase the weight of gunpowder.
    2. YuDDP
      YuDDP 14 March 2013 20: 42
      0
      qwert], at the request of Pupyrchaty ask questions?
      1. qwert
        qwert 15 March 2013 07: 06
        0
        Well no. I have no relation to the promised land. I am most curious.
  7. RPG_
    RPG_ 14 March 2013 10: 26
    +1
    At least with regard to the tower, I agree with the author of the article, this is not even a step to the side, it is a step back. But the comments of a specialist are meager and not supported by any arguments, and I don't want to believe him as the last resort. Especially the phrase that the rear of the tower is "securely covered with an armored box" I wonder how much the thickness of the reliable box is 10 or 20 mm. And the knockout plate does not guarantee the preservation of the crew's combat effectiveness, for after the detonation of two dozen charges behind the back of the head, it is not pleasant.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 14 March 2013 12: 12
      +5
      Quote: RPG_
      Especially the phrase that the rear of the tower is "securely covered with an armored box" I wonder how much the thickness of the reliable box is 10 or 20 mm. And the knockout plate does not guarantee the preservation of the crew's combat effectiveness, because after the detonation of two dozen charges behind the back of the head, it is not pleasant.


      I completely agree with the expert. The back of the tower is covered:
      trellis screen
      basket
      armored box with extra shots (10pcs)
      and only then comes the armor of the tower.
      Other teshek rear only boxes with zip and immediately the armor of the tower.

      The sides of the tower, if I remember correctly, the T-90ms are covered with active armor (under the skin).
      In previous tacheks, the board is covered only by boxes (spare parts, cartridge, etc.).

      In general, the residential part of the tower remained as on the previous teshes, but the additional dimension of the tower is precisely the additional protection of the crew.
      1. RPG_
        RPG_ 14 March 2013 14: 34
        -3
        What does it mean and only then comes the armor of the tower? it’s practically not there, as well as shells, it’s necessary to get it without getting out of the tank. So the old version of the tower overlaid with bars and dynamic protection would be much better. And take into account small ammunition as a given and build the tactics of using cars on the basis of this.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 14 March 2013 16: 24
          0
          Quote: RPG_
          What does it mean and only then comes the armor of the tower? it’s practically not there, as well as shells, it’s necessary to get it without getting out of the tank.

          Who told you that there’s no armor at the back of the tower? Additional shots (10 pieces) are in a separate box behind the tower and there is no access to them from inside the tank.
          If my memory serves me, the same was done by the Ukrainian "Oplot", only there are only 5 additional shots there.
          1. I think so
            I think so 14 March 2013 23: 08
            -1
            Well, well ... Shells overboard? So what for then are they at all, if they are not taken during the battle? It turns out that they are, that they do not make any difference - so what is the improvement in general, here I see only the DECREASE in the properties of the machine ... Miracles ...
        2. Explore
          Explore 14 March 2013 22: 51
          +1
          It’s getting out. This is a separate module - storage of shells outside the BO and without hatches.
      2. What-to-make fun
        What-to-make fun April 1 2019 14: 26
        0
        screens of course protect from crowbars)))))))))))))))))))))))) or RPG from above)))!
  8. Alekseev
    Alekseev 14 March 2013 10: 30
    +3
    Well conceived article!
    The author's thoughts, which are largely amateurish, are given a professional "shock"
    The "break" is, probably, a little succinct.
    But in order to understand the detailed comments of a specialist, one must be one himself, and the volume will come out pretty well.
    1. I think so
      I think so 14 March 2013 23: 11
      -4
      As for the "professional shock" I doubt it ... rather, the same answers to the considerations of one amateur ...
  9. Avenger711
    Avenger711 14 March 2013 10: 48
    0
    There is a good alternative for a machine gun coaxial with a cannon - a 12,7 mm YakB-12,7 machine gun from a Mi-24V attack helicopter.


    Yeah, only he was "supposedly shooting" in helicopters. I have doubts about the reliability of this system (4-barreled) on the ground, gattlings are still quite a capricious weapon. What does not suit the installation of the standard Large-caliber Machine Gun Vladimirov Tank or alteration of any 12.7 mm, if the variant with KPVT (almost twice as much as 12.7 mm in muzzle energy) seems too brutal.

    In general, a heavy machine gun does provide many advantages and penetrates many types of shelters. The Americans in Iraq improvised, removed the anti-aircraft machine gun and put it on the barrel of the gun, altering along the way the electric trigger. There are options for arming the tank with a 20 mm gun instead of 12.7 mm anti-aircraft.

    You can also pay attention to such a hit as the "Bakhcha-U" module with as many as three barrels.

    As for the firing range, it should be at least 10 km (especially for SAM).


    Even 5 km for ATGMs is already doubtful because of the difficulty in finding the target.
  10. Avenger711
    Avenger711 14 March 2013 10: 48
    -1
    There is a good alternative for a machine gun coaxial with a cannon - a 12,7 mm YakB-12,7 machine gun from a Mi-24V attack helicopter.


    Yeah, only he was "supposedly shooting" in helicopters. I have doubts about the reliability of this system (4-barreled) on the ground, gattlings are still quite a capricious weapon. What does not suit the installation of the standard Large-caliber Machine Gun Vladimirov Tank or alteration of any 12.7 mm, if the variant with KPVT (almost twice as much as 12.7 mm in muzzle energy) seems too brutal.

    In general, a heavy machine gun does provide many advantages and penetrates many types of shelters. The Americans in Iraq improvised, removed the anti-aircraft machine gun and put it on the barrel of the gun, altering along the way the electric trigger. There are options for arming the tank with a 20 mm gun instead of 12.7 mm anti-aircraft.

    You can also pay attention to such a hit as the "Bakhcha-U" module with as many as three barrels.

    As for the firing range, it should be at least 10 km (especially for SAM).


    Even 5 km for ATGMs is already doubtful because of the difficulty in finding the target.
  11. Chaplain
    Chaplain 14 March 2013 11: 05
    0
    The article is, to put it mildly, controversial, regarding the knock-out panels, the question is very interesting. During the operation of the abrams, there were isolated cases of saving the crew or the tank at the expense of the ones. An explosion and subsequent detonation, whether of unitary shells or separate loading, leads to 99 cases out of 100 fatalities. and this 1 case to the smallest degree depends on the knock-out panels. Also, any tank should be considered not biased, as a complex of weapons, and not measured by organs. Abrams and the T-72 are the two most warring tanks in the world, and in many respects the T-72 is larger than Mohammed Ali, that is, it was not defeated, while Abrams is a very worthy opponent, and not a parquet tank (such as a leopard or leclerc).
    But undoubtedly the T-72 requires either a replacement or a deep modernization. The T-90 is not what our army needs. Since this modification is more like a wrapper (wrapper), but not really needed.
  12. Avenger711
    Avenger711 14 March 2013 11: 33
    -1
    There is a good alternative for a machine gun coaxial with a cannon - a 12,7 mm YakB-12,7 machine gun from a Mi-24V attack helicopter.


    Yeah, only he was "supposedly shooting" in helicopters. I have doubts about the reliability of this system (4-barreled) on the ground, gattlings are still quite a capricious weapon. What does not suit the installation of the standard Large-caliber Machine Gun Vladimirov Tank or alteration of any 12.7 mm, if the variant with KPVT (almost twice as much as 12.7 mm in muzzle energy) seems too brutal.

    In general, a heavy machine gun does provide many advantages and penetrates many types of shelters. The Americans in Iraq improvised, removed the anti-aircraft machine gun and put it on the barrel of the gun, altering along the way the electric trigger. There are options for arming the tank with a 20 mm gun instead of 12.7 mm anti-aircraft.

    You can also pay attention to such a hit as the "Bakhcha-U" module with as many as three barrels.

    As for the firing range, it should be at least 10 km (especially for SAM).


    Even 5 km for ATGMs is already doubtful because of the difficulty in finding the target.
  13. wolland
    wolland 14 March 2013 11: 41
    0
    At the moment, the most balanced combat vehicle in combat qualities, created back in the bright past of the USSR, has no analogues, I would like it to not be .......
  14. candy bar140105
    candy bar140105 14 March 2013 12: 40
    +1
    Why did we cling to the T-72 so that it was the basis? maybe it's really better to take the hull from a heavy tank with 7 rollers? The T-10 is a gorgeous tank of its time, and in vain the "expert" dismissed it like that. After all, we only need a body from it, and the tower, electronics and mto can be installed new, or am I mistaken? enlighten ........
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 14 March 2013 13: 30
      0
      Well, if you take only the form and apply the combined reservation, something interesting may well come out, but only by that time (I hope and believe) Armata will appear, so there is no sense in twitching. Spending money on the development of another MBT when one is already preparing for the exit is sheer nonsense and only the USSR can afford it, in the days of its highest prosperity.
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 14 March 2013 20: 49
      0
      Quote: baton140105
      why did we cling to the t-72 so taking it as a basis? maybe it’s really better to take the hull from a heavy tank with 7 rollers?

      Then it will turn out not modernization, but already another tank. And another tank is already being made (Armata) on a completely new basis, taking into account the most modern requirements.
      I was somehow interested in an informed person with UVZ, whether they plan to put the hull on object 187 on the T-90, because it is only 72cm longer than the T-30 hull, but it no longer has a weakened zone in the area of ​​the viewing devices of the driver’s mechanic In this case, X-shaped engines of 1200 horses are completely placed.
      He replied that new lines were being built at the plant near Armata and there was no sense investing in expensive modernization.
      Although, I think, there would be an order from the military - they would do it without problems.
    3. What-to-make fun
      What-to-make fun April 1 2019 14: 36
      0
      bent armor against crowbars can and will give an effect, but it will give a gain in weight, but finally can’t protect against kmuliation! Lengthening the body is a good idea and in armata like 7m rollers!
  15. NAPOLEON
    NAPOLEON 14 March 2013 14: 10
    +5
    it says here that the tank has poor air defense. Air defense tasks are not for the tank. The tank should not operate where enemy aircraft operate freely. Although it will be inferior to its enemy than its complement.
    1. vadson
      vadson 14 March 2013 14: 32
      0
      I hope that the rejection of the anti-aircraft machine gun is due to the calculation that on the battlefield tanks should cover vehicles like the BMP or armor shell from a threat from above
      let's see what will happen on the armature
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 14 March 2013 16: 35
        +1
        Read the article again:
        Commentary by a specialist. A lot of words for an empty reason. Let the author know: in addition to the PKT, on the platform for the remote installation of the upgraded T-90S You can put a 12,7 mm machine gun and a 30 mm AGS grenade launcher, depending on the wishes of the customer. Moreover, the digital ballistic path of the CMS Kalina allows you to replace the armament of a remote installation in the field, depending on the tasks.
      2. Prohor
        Prohor 15 March 2013 20: 04
        0
        The word "anti-aircraft" is an atavism, you just need a large-caliber machine gun. And better are removable modules with KORD, KPVT, PKT, but even with an ATGM, an al-slingshot shotgun.
        1. Evgen2509
          Evgen2509 16 March 2013 16: 40
          0
          The word "anti-aircraft" is an atavism

          And why a machine gun that shoots only Suba under his feet?)
          Seriously, an "anti-aircraft" gun can fire not only at helicopter planes, but also at windows, so here you are not entirely right.
  16. Svityaz
    Svityaz 14 March 2013 14: 48
    -3
    Hi Everyone!
    And why is a tank, with the current armament of infantry, generally needed?
    1. BruderV
      BruderV 14 March 2013 16: 20
      +1
      Quote: Svityaz
      And why is a tank, with the current armament of infantry, generally needed?

      But at least then that in conditions of radiation and chemical contamination, there will be nothing to fight except tanks. In addition to the BTT, no other ground equipment has yet been invented that can provide comparable maneuverability, firepower, and protection of soldiers on the battlefield. Even ordinary modern infantry needs means for fast movement, infantry in dead defense is cut off from supplies and methodically destroyed. That is, infantry is vital for armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, MRAPs, and to cover them, tanks with increased firepower are needed, which will quickly and reliably destroy enemy infantry fighting vehicles along with infantry and resist enemy tanks. Everything needs to be considered in a complex, because the battles are now combined arms. MBTs are certainly not quite suitable for local wars, here I agree.
    2. Explore
      Explore 20 March 2013 14: 38
      +1
      To maximize the firepower of the same infantry.
      Until now, the tank is the most protected self-propelled vehicle with high firepower. Infantry without a tank greatly slows the pace of the offensive, because not every BMP has sufficient firepower to suppress enemy firing points, moreover, its armor protection, as a rule, is significantly inferior to the tank. In turn, a tank without infantry protection also becomes an easy target for anti-tank vehicles. The refusal of the symbiosis of the Tank-Motorized Rifle platoon / squad in the near future is not possible when conducting military operations of large armies.
      And against the partisans - MRAPs to help ...
  17. Georgs
    Georgs 14 March 2013 14: 50
    -1
    Who would explain to a layman on tank technology why such a monstrous zaman was formed in front of the tower? And if the sub-caliber slides in there? And what will happen if at least a 12 mm bullet gets into all these crazy bells and whistles? And even cooler if 14 mm? Oh, and not about grenade launchers.
    1. BruderV
      BruderV 14 March 2013 15: 42
      0
      Quote: GeorGS
      And if there is a caliber slip

      At such angles of contact with the armor will fragment (fly apart).
      Quote: GeorGS
      And what will happen if at least a 12 mm bullet gets into all these crazy bells and whistles? And even cooler if 14 mm? Oh about grenade launchers and do not talk

      The feed niche is generally separate from the tower. It is for the transport of additional BC and loading it through the hatch into the tank.
    2. Crang
      Crang 15 March 2013 23: 27
      -2
      As the author of the article already wrote, due to the small size of the case. The mechanics simply cannot get out - the hatch is right at the base of the tower. I had to do the lure. The T-10 would not have such problems.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 15 March 2013 23: 55
        +1
        Quote: Krang
        The mechanics simply cannot get out - the hatch is right at the base of the tower. I had to do the lure. The T-10 would not have such problems.

        If you lower the cannon in combat, then on both tanks the driver has problems leaving the tank. I don’t know how on T-10 but in T-90 a mechanic can leave the tank through the fighting compartment. This is not as fast as through his hatch, but he has the opportunity to get out of the tank.

        And what kind of "lure" are we talking about? The reverse bevel of the dynamic protection boxes is not so that it would be more convenient for the driver to climb out, but because the remote sensing operation at such angles is the most rational.
        1. Crang
          Crang 16 March 2013 08: 13
          0
          Take a closer look at the T-10 hull. The hatch of the driver is not located on the roof, but slightly tilted forward like the Abrams. In addition, it is very large - triangular. Even if the cannon is straight and lowered down to the end, the mechanic will still be able to get out. It's just that even in any direction from the cannon - the hatch allows it. Now look at the small oval mechanic drive hatch on the T-90. Which is pushed close to the tower. The cannon does not even have to go down - even if it is just above the hatch - the fur cannot get out. The casing covers.
    3. Evgen2509
      Evgen2509 16 March 2013 16: 42
      +2
      As for the "lure", learn the materiel. This is not a lure, but a remote sensing device, the efficiency of which increases with an increase in the contact angle.
  18. understudy
    understudy 14 March 2013 14: 53
    -2
    guided missiles of the Merkava tank MK.IV - LAHAT have a launch range of 6-8 km
    __________________________________
    In this case, the "Merkava" is not an indicator, for it was sharpened exclusively on the desert area of ​​a clearly defined theater of operations. Something I do not know the facts of the export of this object to states with different climatic conditions.
    I agree with the expert's comment. However, I would like to know the "regalia and services" for the defense of all opposing sides. smile
    1. Crang
      Crang 16 March 2013 08: 36
      -1
      You know, I'm looking at you and I understand one thing - the saying "History teaches one thing - history teaches nothing" will live forever. You don't need more than 5 km, right? Because further 2,5 km type "not visible". How many times have already stepped on the same rake ..... How many times ... In the Russian-Japanese war - and why there are more than 20 cables not to get there, so you don't need to train! And all the rare practice shooting was carried out at distances up to 20 cables. In a real battle "suddenly" it turned out that it was necessary to fight with 40 and 60 ... In 41 - 76mm cannon copes with all targets! No more! The "Tiger" appeared and the result - hundreds of burning T-34s .... Operation "Desert Storm" - our T-72Ms were drenched like blind kittens because they did not see more than 1300m at night, and the Abrams were seen at 2500-3000m. It was also "not necessary" right? On a perfectly flat surface of the globe, two people of average height see each other's heads from a distance of 8 km. I can show you and in central Russia a full full of places from where you can see for all 20-25 km.
      You understand that in this situation a single-iron rule should apply: "The further the better" This concerns the detection and firing range. And then there will be no such nightmarish situations as in 41st. If this homebrew specialist called the author of this article "a dense ignoramus", then let him officially call the guys who provided the Israeli tank "Merkava MK.4" with a guided missile firing range of 8 km. The path will call the Americans idiots who are developing a TERM guided missile with a launch range of more than 10 km for the Abrams .... What do you think they are sitting there? With these TERMs they will be able to burn our tanks while still over the horizon (with external target designation).
      1. not good
        not good 16 March 2013 11: 42
        0
        A good note. The rejection of the 140-150mm gun is also not clear, they say a new round of the race of calibers, nonsense. If we are the first, let them catch up if we can.
      2. understudy
        understudy 16 March 2013 22: 42
        0
        So what is there ... you give a firing range of 45 kilometers and a cannon of 203 mm caliber. Well, about the vaunted "Merkava" ... delve into the infe on its chassis. I sincerely hope to be surprised.
  19. Nayhas
    Nayhas 14 March 2013 16: 05
    +2
    Placement of additional b / c in the aft tower niche is progress on the one hand, but the use scheme is extremely inconvenient. There is no access to it from the inside of the tower, it is necessary for one crew member to get out and serve in the tower to charge the automatic loader. In battle, this is simply impossible, for this you will have to leave the battlefield, find a safe place and reload. Those. in fact, the ammunition is limited to shells located in a / z ... Well, why the hell then is this niche?
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 March 2013 16: 21
      0
      Quote: Nayhas
      Well, then why the heck is this niche?

      There is such a concept of transportable ammunition. Abrams also can’t use shells on a turret without leaving the tank.
      and the removal of part of the BC is the correction of a long-standing lack of tanks of the Soviet concept and with AZ / MZ the deployment of charges and shells in the combat compartment.
    2. BruderV
      BruderV 14 March 2013 16: 22
      +2
      Quote: Nayhas
      Well, then why the heck is this niche?

      So that the crew did not sit on the shells.
    3. PLO
      PLO 14 March 2013 16: 27
      +2
      judging by the experience of operating tanks in Chechnya, tankers equipped only AZs, and they didn’t take additional shots because it was extremely inconvenient to reload in a battle, after the bk was used up, the tank left the battlefield and reloaded AZ

      so this arrangement is justified
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas 14 March 2013 23: 49
        0
        Well, having left the battle, the tank was leaving for a certain basing place to where the rear axles brought fuel and fuel. But if you leave the battle, is it better to recharge in full, and not 50%?
    4. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 14 March 2013 16: 30
      +1
      Quote: Nayhas
      Well, then why the heck is this niche?

      The manufacturers believed that 30 rounds (22 + 8) inside the tank was enough. The military insisted on an additional 10 pieces of ammunition
    5. Lieutenant colonel
      Lieutenant colonel 15 March 2013 09: 24
      0
      If you remember in a turret in a mechanized installation of AZ or MZ (differences - the AZ projectile charge is located one above the other. The drive is electromechanical, MZ - the shells are arranged in the shape of the letter G lying on the back, the charge is vertical, the shell horizontally - the drive is electro-hydraulic) is located from 21 to 22 shells. The tower (T-80) has 6 shots in stacks (behind the back of the commander), and 5 shots in the tank rack on the right hand of the driver’s mechanic, another 3 shots are mounted behind the back of the mechanic. So - for indicating in the MH or AZ shells located in the fighting compartment it is not necessary to leave the battle, but the rest .... the participation of all crew members is necessary.
  20. Director
    Director 14 March 2013 16: 20
    +1
    The author Grigory Malyshev-replayed in the world of tanks. The T-80BV accelerated to 80n due to the transmission: it has 4 of them (transmission), and due to the torque of the gas turbine engine, and the diesel engine reaches such revolutions as China's Peshkom, But in general the T-72 (90) is a tractor, it’s not in vain fathers under Ebna took up the destruction of the Omsk KBP so seriously. And Uravagon supported, I am not Against Tagil but objectively the Black Eagle would be better a hundred times
    1. PLO
      PLO 14 March 2013 16: 29
      0
      I myself really like the Black Eagle and the T-80, but how are they fundamentally better than the same T-72/90?
      crazy AZ? a ball like that on the T-90
    2. BruderV
      BruderV 14 March 2013 16: 31
      +1
      Quote: director
      he has 4 of them at all (deliveries), and due to the torque of the gas turbine engine, and to a diesel engine at such speeds as before China on foot

      So torque or revs? Maximum torque is not issued at maximum speeds. In diesel, on the contrary, starting from the bottom.
    3. Crang
      Crang 16 March 2013 08: 21
      +1
      You probably had problems with physics at school. On fingers. Torque is an abstract quantity. Even with my hands I can create the same N * m as the T-80 engine if they give me a lever many, many meters long. It is also referred to as Newton per meter. But the trick is that I will twist with such effort very slow - the damn long lever will turn out. To do this fast - you need something more powerful with shorter length lever. It's like a DT-50 tractor - and its dead 50-horsepower diesel engine can steal anything through a special transmission. But slowabout. DT-50 will never be able to accelerate to hundreds in 5 seconds and develop 200km / h. The same is in tanks. Maximum speed - this is in pure form a characteristic of engine power. Yes, and the dynamics of acceleration in principle, too. The torque here is so - bake on the side.
  21. homosum20
    homosum20 14 March 2013 17: 42
    +3
    After reading all this, I thought. Is the armor strong? Are they so fast?
    That in the city it is necessary to break through a wall from a machine gun and hit the upper floors, after Chechnya, it is not clear to a political observer or a member of the Duma. What is the weight of the tank nsvt or kpvt - doesn’t matter, either. What is it that makes a tank an impeccable tool for killing bearded with RPGs? Again, helicopters from a probable enemy are up to a fig and more. And what is stopping you?
    When I don’t understand something, I start to be afraid.
    There is one thing you can’t save on. The lives of people. This is our future - this is war.
    1. Ingvald_Bueny
      Ingvald_Bueny 14 March 2013 18: 19
      0
      The new MBT would be useful for the tank's air defense by a small-sized air defense missile system with Igla missiles and a 30-mm gun placed on the turret behind the crew hatches. To combat the infantry, you can mount modules with AGS and a flamethrower on new MBTs. But why all this if there is BMPT and "Tunguska".
  22. Ingvald_Bueny
    Ingvald_Bueny 14 March 2013 18: 12
    0
    The article did not report anything new about the T-90SM; all this was known in advance from UVZ brochures, scans of which are walking on the website of Gurkhan Khlopotov. The commentator professionally points out the blunders of the author of the article and draws a conclusion between the lines, read the technical characteristics of vehicles from the source, and not to lead citizens far from tank building.
    It is especially interesting when the author tries to simulate a model of ideal MBT, given that the T-90 body is several times more progressive than that of the T-10, if we compare the thickness of the T-10 armor about 150 mm, the upper vld is a pike nose type welded from several parts (monolithic) , against the 230-mm T-90 and its water pressure from one frontal plate (KB), it becomes clear that the T-90 has more chances against modern ammunition than the long-gone T-10M. At the same time, the T-10 chassis as an ideal model also seems doubtful, since it is not designed for the long dynamic loads that the T-72 chassis can handle, and the T-10 chassis will not provide modernization resources when the tank mass is increased, it is weaker than T-72, this led to the fact that in the USSR, the modernization of the T-10M did not go further than the installation of new airborne and night sights, as well as the modernization of radio communications and individual weapons and fire control systems.
    Regarding the author's worries about the fact that the powerful engine will not fit into the "tight" MTO T-90SM, the author apparently does not know about the Ukrainian T-72-120 in which there is a powerful two-stroke. In any case, it is not clear what the author means by a powerful engine, probably according to the principle the more the more powerful, then of course the engine from the USS Orli berk will hardly fit into the MTO T-90SM.
    The rest of the article is a plus for what makes you dig into the reference literature.
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 March 2013 18: 23
      +2
      Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
      if you compare the thickness of the armor T-10 about 150

      Speech in the article about bot armor and its shape, the T-10 is thicker.
      Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
      as it is not designed for continuous dynamic loads

      And what should not drive on TTX T10? Or are there restrictions on the duration of the dynamic load?

      As for the Specialist, it would be interesting to find out who is hiding under this nickname, title, academic degree that he invented, what he designed.
      1. Ingvald_Bueny
        Ingvald_Bueny 14 March 2013 18: 39
        0
        Quote: Kars
        speech in the article about bot armor and its shape, at T-10 it is thick

        The T-10M side armor has a thickness of 80 mm, like the T-90 side armor, in both it is monolithic. So, on this basis, the T-10 does not exceed the T-90.


        Quote: Kars
        And what should not drive on TTX T10? Or are there restrictions on the duration of the dynamic load?

        Compared with the T-90, the undercarriage of the T-10 has a shorter life. And of course, there are different conditions for the use of T-10 tanks for a European theater of war, while the T-90 tank is suitable for use in almost any climate zone from the desert to the mountains (except for the northern latitudes).

        Quote: Kars
        As for the Specialist, it would be interesting to find out who is hiding under this nickname, title, academic degree that he invented, what he designed.

        ?
        1. Kars
          Kars 14 March 2013 19: 03
          0
          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          The T-10M side armor has a thickness of 80 mm, like the T-90 side armor, in both it is monolithic. So, on this basis, the T-10 does not exceed the T-90.

          Board of the case (top), mm / city. 120/47 ° [1]
          80/62 ° [1]
          At the same time, the T-90 is vertical, so angles of inclination must be taken into account.
          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          Compared with the T-90, the undercarriage of the T-10 has a shorter life.

          Where is it written? What is expressed?
          Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
          And of course, there are different conditions for the use of T-10 tanks for a European theater of war, while the T-90 tank is suitable for use in almost any climate zone from the desert to the mountains (except for the northern latitudes).

          Naturally, there is no confirmation that the T-10 could not be operated under the mentioned conditions.
          1. Ingvald_Bueny
            Ingvald_Bueny 14 March 2013 19: 26
            0
            Quote: Kars
            Board of the case (top), mm / city. 120/47 ° [1]
            80/62 ° [1]
            At the same time, the T-90 is vertical, so angles of inclination must be taken into account.


            And what of the fact that the bent side sheets of the T-10 body had a thickness of 80 mm and a variable angle of inclination from 0 to 62 °, what does this speak in favor of the T-10 body?

            Quote: Kars
            Where is it written? What is expressed?


            http://www.redov.ru/transport_i_aviacija/tehnika_i_vooruzhenie_2010_04/p10.php


            Quote: Kars
            Naturally, there is no confirmation that the T-10 could not be operated under the mentioned conditions.

            Do you have what you could?
            1. Kars
              Kars 14 March 2013 19: 43
              -1
              Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
              T-10 had a thickness of 80

              Quote: Kars
              Board of the case (top), mm / city. 120/47

              Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
              from 0 to 62 °, what does this speak in favor of the T-10 case?

              armor calculator to help you
              http://vn-parabellum.com/mis/armorcalculator.html
              Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
              http://www.redov.ru/transport_i_aviacija/tehnika_i_vooruzhenie_2010_04/p10.php

              is it possible to give a specific quote from the text? what is the given running gear in that one in that, or possessed an X-axis ---, while the running t-72 had a reserve of X - + 100500
              Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
              Do you have what you could?

              It turns out you do not have confirmation of your words. This was expected.
              1. Ingvald_Bueny
                Ingvald_Bueny 14 March 2013 20: 04
                +1
                Quote: Kars
                armor calculator to help you
                http://vn-parabellum.com/mis/armorcalculator.html

                Thank you for such a useful vesch. All the same, do you think that Morozov made a mistake in designing the sides of the T-64 hull without making it like the Kotinovsky T-10?

                Quote: Kars
                is it possible to give a specific quote from the text? what is the given running gear in that one in that, or possessed an X-axis ---, while the running t-72 had a reserve of X - + 100500

                Do you think that the T-10 has a longer running gear resource compared to the rubber bandages of the rinks of the T-72 tank? At the same time, the T-10 has a large mass, weaker reservation and is inferior to a couple of millimeters in the main caliber.

                Quote: Kars
                It turns out you do not have confirmation of your words. This was expected.

                If we proceed from the fact that the T-10 could not participate anywhere else except for the Danube, then yes.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 14 March 2013 20: 58
                  0
                  Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
                  Morozov made a mistake in designing the sides of the T-64

                  I believe that they made a mistake when they abandoned the IS-7
                  Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
                  Do you think that the T-10 has a longer running gear resource compared to the rubber bandages of the rinks of the T-72 tank?

                  No, you are trying to prove that the T-10 can’t move for a long time.

                  Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
                  Moreover, the T-10 has a large mass

                  So what kind of loss in dynamic loads of the T-10 chassis are you trying to talk about if the t-72 chassis was originally designed for a mass of less than 40 tons.
                  Quote: Ingvald_Bueny
                  If we proceed from the fact that the T-10 could not participate anywhere else except for the Danube, then yes.

                  And this? T-64 was also not exported, so what? At the same time, the IS-3 fought in the Arab-Israeli wars. Is it better than the T-10?
                2. Crang
                  Crang 15 March 2013 23: 15
                  0
                  The 122mm gun T-10M M-62-T2S was rifled and designed for a pressure of 4000kg / cm2. It was more powerful and much more accurate than the 125mm T-64 smoothbore. Why did you choose a smoothbore? Then there was a boom in cumulants and with a smooth barrel it is easier to make a powerful COP. And so compare BOPS BM-11 from T-10M and ZBM-10, ZBM-13 from T-64 in terms of characteristics. BM-11 from T-10M with a mass like that of "Abramsovsky" M829A2, it took off at a speed of 1620 m / s. So there is no need for a weak T-10M cannon. She would have done any tank of that time without any problems.
    2. Crang
      Crang 15 March 2013 23: 08
      0
      You pick on a little over trifles. If the author of the article pointed to the hull of the T-10M tank and its chassis, this does not mean that it should be taken without any changes. This refers to the T-10M hull with modern combined armor in the frontal part, side armored screens and road wheels with rubber bands and new torsion bars and morters. What's so hard to do? Which one would be stupid to copy? The sides of the T-10M not only have a slope due to which they are much stronger than those of the T-90, but even so, the niches in them leave a lot of space. Why is the T-90 hull "several times more progressive" than the T-10? The T-90 just has a box like the KV-1 only with a straightened VLD. Count T-44. Were you in the mechanic's place in the T-90? There's a cannon right above you and if something happens, you get out the hell. Burn and that's all there. And compare how the T-10 was made.
    3. Crang
      Crang 16 March 2013 10: 57
      0
      Ukraine is now a different country. Yes, and two-stroke shit. We need a normal V12, a normal diesel volume. And so it is possible in the T-72 and put the engine from the F1 car. A Th - the power is suitable. Yes, just he will not pull, despite the power.
    4. Lieutenant colonel
      Lieutenant colonel 19 March 2013 07: 25
      0
      By the way - the running part of the T-10 migrated in detail to the T-64 (which is why 64 weren’t groomed in the army.).
      1. Crang
        Crang 19 March 2013 21: 42
        -1
        The T-10 chassis has nothing to do with the T-64 chassis, except for the very principle of a metal roller with internal shock absorption. Then there was simply no normal rubber capable of a long service life under a weight of 52 tons. But the size of the road roller for the T-10 is normal, and not "plate-shaped" like that of the T-64. Naturally, taking the base and chassis of the T-10M as the basis for a promising tank, the road wheels should be replaced with "eighty" ones with rubber bands.
        But the T-64 was not liked for many reasons:
        - unreliable and moody engine
        - Thin plates of rollers because of which the caterpillar often subsided.
        - hellish Ministry of Defense, which cut off the mechanics of the way to the BO (to the exit) and strove to send the entire crew into orbit together with the tower. Well ... there were a lot of problems.
        1. Kars
          Kars 19 March 2013 21: 55
          0
          Quote: Krang
          This was the MH, which cut off the mechanics of the way to the BO (to the exit) and strove to send the entire crew into orbit together with the tower. Well ... there were a lot of problems

          And for some reason, this hellish MZ was transferred to the T-80, well, if on the T-80 and T-80A when there was a unification with the T-64 tower. But how did it come to B, BV and U which in principle could be called new tank compared to the T-80A than the T-90 compared to the T-72a
          1. Crang
            Crang 19 March 2013 22: 20
            -1
            Oh - what is new then? And why by comparison?
            1. Kars
              Kars 19 March 2013 22: 31
              +1
              Quote: Krang
              Oh - what is new then? And why by comparison?

              These issues are considered in the history of the T-80. And in principle, it is visible to everyone who compares the T-80B / BV and T-80U / UD
              1. Crang
                Crang 19 March 2013 22: 35
                0
                If you read it, then I would like to hear from you a few of the most important points from this book. If you haven’t read it, then I don’t have to offer to read what you yourself don’t know. Yes, and I would like to see how the issue of the superiority of the T-80U over the T-90 was considered there. At least a couple of sane words.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 19 March 2013 23: 04
                  0
                  Quote: Krang
                  I would like to hear from you

                  You never know what you wanted.

                  http://mirageswar.com/2008/02/14/t80._luchshijj_v_mire_tank.html
                  Quote: Krang
                  T-80U over T-90

                  http://mirageswar.com/2008/01/11/tank_t_80.html
                  This issue is not considered there. Because only people like you are not able to draw logical conclusions.
                  From such facts as the transfer from T-80U control system to T-90. Lower specific power of T-90, etc. And this despite the fact that the T-90 was made LATER than the T-80U and in theory should have exceeded it. But UVZ is not destiny .
                  1. Crang
                    Crang 20 March 2013 08: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    From such facts as the transfer from T-80U control system to T-90. Lower specific power T-90 and so on.

                    And at the expense of "etc." can be more? Because the power density is practically the only advantage of the T-80U. And what about the MSA? I have already said this a hundred times and will repeat myself:
                    - T-80 including and the T-80U is Russian tank, not Ukrainian.
                    - As for the LMS, its components were developed and created in different parts of the country, by a bunch of allied enterprises, and it is fundamentally incorrect to consider the LMS 1A45T "Irtysh" as belonging to the T-80U. Nothing was transferred to the T-90, but simply also delivered the OMS 1A45T "Irtysh".
                    - And in the end, the electronics on the T-90 are still more modern than on the T-80U, and the level of protection (like its mass) is higher.
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 20 March 2013 13: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Krang
                      T-80 including and the T-80U is a Russian tank, not a Ukrainian

                      SOVIET
                      Quote: Krang
                      They did not carry anything on the T-90, but simply also installed the OMS 1A45T "Irtysh".

                      It was sawed.
                      Quote: Krang
                      and in the end, the electronics on the T-90 are still more modern than on the T-80U

                      Quote: Kars
                      T-90 was made LATER T-80U and in theory was supposed to surpass it

                      cannot be))))
                      Quote: Krang
                      and the level of protection (as well as its mass) is higher.

                      And you try to prove it, especially on the first modifications of the T-90

                      So you will have to reconcile that the T-90 is almost 10 years spent in the empty t-72 to reach the T-80U
                      Quote: Krang
                      into the account "etc." can be more?

                      Are you unable to read, in principle? For example, reduction in ammunition. Reduction in ammunition base AZ / MZ.
                      1. Crang
                        Crang 20 March 2013 15: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        SOVIET

                        Created by Russians in Leningrad at the Kirov Plant. Today it is the territory of Russia.
                        Quote: Kars
                        It was sawed.

                        How was it sawed? Did you create a "clone" of 1A45T like the Chinese? Or that 1A45T was created in Kharkov? Don't talk nonsense. 1А45Т "Irtysh" is our MSA and we ourselves had nothing to "saw through".
                        Quote: Kars
                        And you try to prove it, especially on the first modifications of the T-90

                        The mass of the first modification of the T-90 "Vladimir" is known - 46,5 tons. The T-90A weighs 48 tons. The mass of the T-80U was exactly 46 tons. The equivalent level of forehead firmness of even the basic T-90 is still secret and you don't need to know about it.
                        Quote: Kars
                        So you will have to reconcile that the T-90 is almost 10 years spent in the empty t-72 to reach the T-80U

                        The T-80U was put into service in 1985 with the Buran-PA combined infrared sight. The T-90 was created in 1989 and put into service in 1992 with the TO-PO-2T "Agava-2" thermal sight. What are 10 years? Before the T-90, the T-72BM already existed - a very powerful tank that can be compared in some aspects with the T-80U.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Are you unable to read, in principle? For example, reduction in ammunition. Reduction in ammunition base AZ / MZ.

                        Ammunition T-80U - 45 shells. The T-90 has 43 shells. Almost the same with a significantly higher survivability of the latter. At least I can bring this picture. I know - the guys from Kharkov really do not like her:

                        [img] http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ukCzciaRJU4/TuJkwl6ZrBI/AAAAAAAAACMg/DhGxUULvoJQ/s
                        640/% 25D1%81%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0_1.jpg[/img]
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 20 March 2013 16: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Krang
                        Created by Russians in Leningrad at the Kirov Plant. Today it is the territory of Russia.

                        Created by citizens of the USSR of different nationalities, including Jews.
                        ))))))
                        Quote: Krang
                        How was it sawed?

                        Stupid question. Could you guess how they adapt the systems. Including changes in the design of the tower.


                        Quote: Krang
                        assa of the first modification T-90 "Vladimir" is known - 46,5 tons.

                        as much as 500 kg heavier.

                        Quote: Krang
                        -90A weighs 48 tons
                        And what was used up 2 tons 20 years after the appearance of the T-80U. For information T-80U is 1985, T-90A is 2005)))) what progress.

                        Quote: Krang
                        the equivalent level of forehead resistance even of the base T-90 is still secret and you don’t need to know about it

                        Moreover, you will prove that it is more powerful than the T-80U with the same elements of built-in dynamic protection.

                        Quote: Krang
                        What are 10 years old?

                        You're right, rather, as much as twenty years trampling on the spot.

                        Object 630A - the main tank T-80UK. Adopted in the early 1990s. Commander version of the T-80U. Installed: “Shtora-1” system, “Agava-2” thermal imager, new atmospheric parameters sensor, R-163U and R-163K radios, TNA-4 navigation system, remote-controlled projectile remote sensing system, autonomous power plant AB-1-P28

                        T-80UE - modification of 1995. Option T-80UM, designed specifically for the Greek tender; installed hydrostatic transmission and new controls.
                        Object 219AM-1 - the main tank T-80UA. Option for upgrading the T-80U tank.
                        Object 219AS-M - the main tank T-80UM. 1992 modernization. Upgraded version of the T-80U (thermal imager "Agava-2", radar absorbing coating, radio station R-163-50U
                        Quote: Krang
                        Ammunition T-80U - 45 shells. The T-90 has 43 shells.

                        T-80U 46.A T-90A 42
                        Quote: Krang
                        higher survivability of the latter

                        Why would it? It’s either about the same, or even inferior due to the design of the tower of the T-90, for sure, the T-90A will give him 20 years of handicap.
                      3. Crang
                        Crang 20 March 2013 17: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        as much as 500 kg heavier.

                        But harder.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what was used up 2 tons 20 years after the appearance of the T-80U. For information T-80U is 1985, T-90A is 2005)))) what progress.

                        On the armor.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Moreover, you will prove that it is more powerful than the T-80U with the same elements of built-in dynamic protection.

                        As you will not prove otherwise. It can be proved by indirect evidence. The T-72BM weighing 44,5-45 tons had the same level of security as the T-80U and T-80UD. The T-90 weighing 46,5 tons has even more reinforced armor. You don't have to remember about the T-90A at all. He has increased the size of the armor, new filler. In addition, the "pie" is not only in the frontal parts of the hull and turret, but also in the hull side. The level of protection is incomparable.
                        Quote: Kars
                        T-80U 46.A T-90A 42

                        T-80U 45, T-90 43, T-90A 42 (but which ones).
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why would it? It’s either about the same, or even inferior due to the design of the tower of the T-90, for sure, the T-90A will give him 20 years of handicap.

                        Well, yes - the design of the tower even of the basic T-90 is more modern. In addition, in the aft parts of the T-72 and T-90 towers, there are boxes of spare parts that are filled in battle with any "filler" of your choice. This greatly increases the durability of the aft and so very narrowed zone of the T-72 and T-90 towers. In the T-80U and T-80UD, the wide stern of the almost square tower is not protected by anything. Only the thin armor itself and that's it. Except for the OPVT pipe located above. The welded tower T-90A is generally new and cannot be compared with any T-80. So you have to give it a 20-year head start. We were stuck in place with our T-64BM and T-80UD. Soon you will go to the museum to take them. With their old cannons and antediluvian shells from the late 80s.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why would it? It’s either about the same, or even inferior due to the design of the tower of the T-90, for sure, the T-90A will give him 20 years of handicap.

                        The T-90A tower has a "pie" on the sides and rolled armor plates. It is much more powerful than that of the T-80.
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 20 March 2013 18: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Krang
                        But harder.

                        Quote: Krang
                        On the armor.

                        Really? Confirm your words.
                        And as many as 20 years, wasted))))
                        Quote: Krang
                        T-72BM weighing 44,5-45 tons, the level of protection corresponded to T-80U and T-80UD

                        He does not match.
                        Quote: Krang
                        T-90 weighing 46,5 tons has even more reinforced armor
                        also no.

                        Quote: Krang
                        You can not even remember about the T-90A. He has increased the size of the armor, new filler. In addition, the "pie" is not only in the frontal parts of the hull and turret, but also in the hull side. The level of protection is incomparable.
                        Compare, while twenty years have passed.
                        Quote: Krang
                        T-80U 45, T-90 43, T-90A 42 (but which ones).

                        46 of them are 28 in the machine, 42 and only 22 in the machine.

                        Quote: Krang
                        The T-90A welded tower is generally new and cannot be compared with any T-80.

                        20 years have passed, less than 500 cars have been built, while the tower is almost copied from the T-80UD

                        Quote: Krang
                        Stuck in place with their T-64BM and T-80UD

                        We are doing what we have, and you are trying to modernize the flawed T-72, even Russia does not want to buy the MS. And so far no one has become interested in foreign countries.
                        The result of the T-80 is better than the T-72. The T-90 ate barely reached the level of T-80U, T-90A after 20 years reached the modifications of the T-80 of the 90s.
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 20 March 2013 18: 56
                        0
                        _____________________
          2. svp67
            svp67 April 14 2013 21: 06
            0
            The answer is simple. When the T80 was designed, only the MZ was able to provide rocket firing for a new tank, tanks with AZ at that time did not know how to .. bully
            1. Kars
              Kars April 14 2013 21: 37
              0
              Quote: svp67
              The answer is simple. When the T80 was designed, only the MZ was able to provide missile firing for a new tank, tanks with AZ at that time did not know how

              And can you find evidence for such a simple answer?
              where does the AZ and MH to the CWF? The dimensions of the missiles are the same, they are separate charges. So justify, for example, what changes have been made in the AZ so that he could CHARGE UR
              1. svp67
                svp67 April 15 2013 19: 01
                0
                Not in AZ, but in the rocket itself ...
                You yourself know very well the history of KUVs of Soviet tanks, and you know the year when he appeared on the tanks of the T72 series ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 15 2013 19: 07
                  0
                  Quote: svp67
                  You yourself perfectly know the history of KUVs

                  Not that I know, but I have somewhere to write about her.
                  Quote: svp67
                  and you know the year when he appeared on the tanks of the T72 series.

                  what does it matter?
                  Quote: svp67
                  only the Ministry of Defense was able to provide missiles firing a new tank

                  Or did they put MZ on the T-72B? Or did they make a special missile to the KVV Svir? ​​This is why it is not mentioned.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 April 15 2013 19: 19
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    Or did they put MZ on the T-72B? Or did they make a special missile to the KVV Svir? ​​This is why it is not mentioned.


                    9m112 well, not as originally in the AZ "did not climb", but in the MZ it turned out ...



                    Until 9 to 120 came up with
                    1. Kars
                      Kars April 15 2013 19: 26
                      0
                      Quote: svp67
                      9m112 well, not as originally in the AZ "did not climb", but in the MZ it turned out ...

                      Strange, originally, and so was the MOH.
                      But all the same, I would like confirmation that the physical dimensions of the cobra did not allow the use of AZ, and not the whole body in the LMS.

                      the cider with reference to any source.
                      1. svp67
                        svp67 April 15 2013 19: 32
                        0
                        Didn't understand the question a little. "Body" of what? The rocket itself or the whole complex?
                        Have you had to deal with 9M112?
                    2. Kars
                      Kars April 17 2013 16: 51
                      0
                      Quote: svp67
                      9m112 well, not as initially in the AZ "did not climb", but in the MZ it turned out.

                      Well, you can all the same link?

                      Quote: svp67
                      Until 9 to 120 came up with

                      Nothing in the bottom photo of the Cobra?
                      Quote: svp67
                      Didn't understand the question a little. "Body" of what?

                      The whole thing, sealed up.
                      Quote: svp67
                      Have you had to deal with 9M112?

                      I personally do not, but so far you have not confirmed your qualifications either.

                      http://topwar.ru/9920-kobra-dlya-t-72.html

                      Ok let's get out of your
                      Quote: svp67
                      only the Ministry of Defense was capable of firing rockets of a new tank, tanks with AZ at that time did not know how

                      phrases imperfection of AZ compared with the Ministry of Health, as it can not provide the correct docking missiles.
                      At the same time, a certain orientation of the Cobra blocks was required, which was ensured when using automatic loading loaders with a basket-type conveyor installed on tanks of the T-64 and T-80 families. On tanks of the T-72 type with a different automatic loader - with a conveyor of the "roundabout" type - the Kobra complex was not used.

                      add a quote
                      Based on this, by the beginning of the eighties, the development of the 72K9 Svir complex intended for the main battle tank T-120 was carried out, as well as its more advanced version 9K119 Reflex for the T-80.

                      The Svir complex intended for the T-72 was closer in construction to the previously created Bastion and Sheksna and did not provide for the use of weapons while the tank was on, and the maximum range was limited to 4 km
  23. Algor73
    Algor73 14 March 2013 19: 22
    0
    This tank is most likely an advertisement for a foreign customer, this is the maximum that can be squeezed out of the layout of the 60s of the last century. I doubt that he will enter the troops. For the current wars, something fundamentally new is needed ...
  24. stalker
    stalker 14 March 2013 19: 43
    -2
    in my opinion, the current combat vehicle before the armata release, maybe it does not pull on a "breakthrough", but we go in the right direction, only the so-called "zaman" is straining the lower part of the tower, it looks weakly protected, will there be a ricochet under the tower request
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 14 March 2013 20: 32
      +1
      Quote: stalker
      here the lower part of the tower is straining, the so-called "zaman" looks weakly protected, will there be a ricochet under the tower

      Why ricochet? from a box with DZ? The fact that it will not harm the tank will not be able to bring, but the fact that it breaks will be hit by dynamic protection or stuck in the cheekbones of the tower (the most armored part of the tank)
  25. NAPOLEON
    NAPOLEON 14 March 2013 20: 09
    0
    what happens with the format is unknown. but in my opinion the next generation of tanks should be able to remotely control. why drones are only possible in aviation.
  26. Patton5
    Patton5 14 March 2013 20: 16
    0
    Who will tell you in the second photo from the bottom, is it wiring? And if so, why is it so poorly protected (fragments, machine gun and sniper fire)
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 14 March 2013 20: 35
      0
      Quote: Patton5
      Who will tell you in the second photo from the bottom, is it wiring?

      That hoses from the air conditioner. Their penetration on the tank’s vitality will not affect absolutely, it will only affect the crew’s comfort (and even in a very hot climate).
      On the surface of the tank there is not protected wiring (for example, to the headlights), but there are no vital for the tank there.
  27. Ruslan_F38
    Ruslan_F38 14 March 2013 21: 07
    0
    Cool tank! Install the missing systems in the troops to replace the t-72!
  28. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 14 March 2013 21: 43
    0
    What was bad about “Object 187”?
    Why was the topic closed?
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 14 March 2013 22: 41
      +1
      Quote: Ivan Tarasov
      What was bad about “Object 187”?
      Why was the topic closed?

      He was good to everyone, but dear. Choose an option for cheaper.
      Some of the developments on the 187th were then introduced on the later T-90 (in particular, on the tower).
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 14 March 2013 22: 46
      0
      Because the main thing was to become the t-84 Kharkov alteration of the Leningrad T-80, so we decided to go along the simpler path of modernization of the T-72, later renamed the T-90
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 14 March 2013 22: 57
        +1
        Quote: Patton5
        Because the main was to become t-84 Kharkov alteration of the Leningrad T-80

        And what does Kharkov have to do with it, if the decision on a new tank was made after the collapse of the USSR?
        We chose between object 187 and object 188 (which became the T-90) - both UVZ designs.

        Petersburgers could have muddled up something interesting, but with the cost of the T-80, which is almost 2,5 times higher than the cost of the T-72, most likely with its new development (certainly not cheap) they would fly the same.
        Well it is, guesses ...
        1. Patton5
          Patton5 14 March 2013 23: 17
          0
          So work on the object was carried out even during the Soviet era, it would be logical to assume that only one machine was to be the main one (Kharkov was chosen), and they decided to abandon 187 and bring the existing fleet of T-72 to the level of 188. And after the collapse of the root cause, finance here again 188 looked "attractive" (But that's my opinion)))
          1. Kars
            Kars 14 March 2013 23: 45
            0
            Real estate and facilities in Lenegrad were more expensive and privatized faster.

            And project 292 died

            as for efficiency, the question also arises - to continue mass production of the T-80UD even if it is time to buy engines in Ukraine, or to force Omsk to fit the diesel engine from the T-72 (future T-90) according to ready-approved drawings. / just make the T-80U even if it’s more than twice as expensive as T-72 ---- or to twirl T-72 by putting on it the TMS from the T-80 while spending a lot of money on NIIKOR to make about 500 tanks for the Russian Armed Forces.
            1. Crang
              Crang 20 March 2013 09: 44
              +1
              As I have repeatedly said, we will do well without you and your shitty engines. The fact that you are trying to impose something on us there only reinforces rejection.
              1. Kars
                Kars 20 March 2013 13: 20
                0
                Quote: Krang

                As I have said many times,

                You are just a little behind in development and poorly read.
                Quote: Krang
                -80UD even for some time to buy engines in Ukraine,

                This is a DESCRIPTION of the opportunity FOR the early 90's, not modern realities.

                Quote: Krang
                your shitty engines

                China buys them in hundreds for their tanks. And which tanks did your tank engines mount on? Voluntarily, and not because they got stuck in the T-72
  29. alert_timka
    alert_timka 14 March 2013 23: 20
    -1
    a decent gap between the hull and the tower. And I think there isn’t much armor there, if something gets there, then at best it will jam the tower in the worst there will be a hole (I could be wrong. Although most on the forums put a minus abrams on this subject, and here it even exposes as a plus )
    1. BruderV
      BruderV 14 March 2013 23: 29
      0
      Quote: alert_timka
      decent clearance between the hull and the tower

      If the turret is the same in design as on the T-72, it’s just with built-in DZ blocks that are mounted on top and from which, in principle, it will not be able to bounce, just break.
  30. Nitup
    Nitup 14 March 2013 23: 21
    0
    it is not clear whether they will upgrade the T-72 or purchase the T-90MS, or neither of them, but will wait for Armata. Anyone in the know?
  31. alert_timka
    alert_timka 14 March 2013 23: 22
    0
    And if only 1% of the shells get into the NLD, then does the abrams also face nothing ????
    1. Kars
      Kars 14 March 2013 23: 39
      0
      Quote: alert_timka
      NLD hits only 1%

      Challenger 2 in Iraq hit twice))))
      1. Crang
        Crang 15 March 2013 23: 17
        0
        And they shot from the RPG-29 "Vampire". The mechanic's leg was torn off there.
  32. krot00f
    krot00f 14 March 2013 23: 44
    -1
    A strange article, so much effort is spent on discussing tank duels, but the likelihood of such collisions is negligible. Do you need an ultra-powerful, modern tank to deal with an underdeveloped enemy (which has no tanks) probably not. For some reason, one of the main problems is not addressed - the fight against tank dangerous targets. For some reason, it is generally accepted that guided ammunition is a panacea for all ills, sub-caliber shells suddenly became the main ones. In a T-72 tank ammunition, the main ammunition for the gun is a high-explosive fragmentation projectile, it solves most of the tasks (they are most in the ammunition set). And for this type of ammunition, our country is still far behind. Correct the tankers if I am not writing this.
    1. Patton5
      Patton5 14 March 2013 23: 59
      0
      So in the BC of the majority of NATO tanks it is not at all
      1. krot00f
        krot00f 15 March 2013 09: 41
        0
        Yes, right, no, or rather, he evolved and began to be called differently. Probably heard DM 11. (multi-purpose)
      2. krot00f
        krot00f 15 March 2013 09: 42
        0
        Correctly he is not there, He evolved and began to be called differently. Heard-- DM 11.
    2. Lieutenant colonel
      Lieutenant colonel 15 March 2013 09: 06
      +1
      B / k a tank is very dependent on the theater of operations and is not constant for tanks in the middle zone and the Far East. If, according to our previous views, it was believed that the PLA had few tanks, then the number of guided ammunition on the DVO tanks was low - about 3 shots per vehicle. This is due to the fact that the PLA had few armored objects, but there were a lot of human resources, the COP and BPS were 30 percent (now I can be mistaken by 3-5%), the rest of the b / c was occupied by the OFS, there were also ammunition with ready-made lethal elements. In the central theater of operations, on the contrary, it was believed that they would have to stumble with well-armored targets - based on this, the side-mounted tank already included 5 guided shots and 30-35% of the percent was occupied by the OFS, the rest was given under the KS and BPS (somewhere in equal shares ). But this is pure theory - in practice, the cars were not always loaded with a stopped wagon. The OFS cannot be the main projectile - the main target of the tank is the tank, respectively, the main projectile will be the one that hits one or another armored object. And this, in turn, depends on the enemy (his weapons) with whom to fight. This is pretty hard mathematics. I was taught in the "school" that it is better to use KS against Abrams at a distance of 2,5 - 3 thousand meters, at a distance of less than 2 thousand meters. better than BPS - due to the fact that the CS with increasing range is not as critical a loss of speed as the angle of encounter with an obstacle, the BPS has a critical range and the same angle of encounter. Up to 3 thousand meters of BPS could be fought with tanks from Germany and Britain, since it was believed that their booking was worse. I don't write about guided weapons as they have always been considered a "distant" hand. Our OFS had to "lead" into this or that action to wind and twist the cap in order to achieve a fragmentation or high-explosive fragmentation action.
      1. krot00f
        krot00f 15 March 2013 09: 54
        0
        You are very lucky if you had ammunition in your ammunition with ready-to-use striking elements, there are only a few tanks with the Aynet system.
      2. krot00f
        krot00f 15 March 2013 09: 55
        0
        You are lucky if you had ammunition in your ammunition with ready-to-use striking elements, there are only a few tanks with the Aynet system.
      3. BruderV
        BruderV 15 March 2013 10: 01
        0
        Quote: Reserve lieutenant colonel
        Up to 3 thousand m BPS could be fought with the tanks of Germany and Britain, since it was believed that their booking was worse.

        It’s very strange. What tanks and what modifications are we talking about? Is a Challenger reservation worse than Abrams? Well, if Abrams modifications M1A2 SEP and higher then it can be. At Abrams, depending on the modification, the resistance of the frontal armor against BPS varies from 550 to 900 with an extra mm, the same with Leopards2, but there is less scatter there. So the meaning of such instructions is not clear. Or is it about some Chiftein?
        Quote: Reserve lieutenant colonel
        it was believed that the PLA had few tanks

        What kind of years are we talking about? 60s, 70s?
        1. krot00f
          krot00f 15 March 2013 11: 59
          0
          So he writes correctly. manuals are written based on the available weapons and their characteristics. In such instructions, they write "aim at the ceiling" when shooting at buildings. How the same gunners should be taught. And the instructions are not meaningless, because they are based on the practical use of a specific ammunition. And not just on TTX numbers.
  33. krot00f
    krot00f 15 March 2013 10: 28
    0
    It’s not the worst thing to twist the cap.)) Moreover, tanks cannot shoot without a cap, it is forbidden to shoot in the rain. The fuse tank installation is traditionally O with a cap. So they turn from Z to O, but this is only at boot time. With such installations, it is not necessary to speak of a high-explosive action and defeat behind an obstacle. About fragmentation with a fuse of times of the Second World War it is better to be silent so as not to be ashamed. Since then, the main goal of the tank is the tank. They can’t hit anything else, especially since a direct hit is needed to defeat the OFS. And you won’t shoot at Lomami in terms of manpower.) OFS needs to be replaced by a multi-purpose projectile, this is like evolution for living organisms. The enemy’s tanks are considered as armored banks that must be knocked out for launch, as in fashionable action movies, but here you need sub-caliber shells.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 15 March 2013 13: 29
      0
      Quote: krot00f
      OFS needs to be replaced by a multi-purpose projectile

      Based on what such conclusions?
      It painfully looks like trying to combine a hunting shotgun with a sniper rifle.
      1. krot00f
        krot00f 17 March 2013 19: 02
        0
        The fact is that, formally, the OFS is used both to combat manpower outside the fortifications and to defeat a target behind an obstacle. Moreover, in both cases, the characteristics leave much to be desired. If to operate on "gentlemen of great scientists" Odintsov writes about this, he calls the shell "Puchkov" only now he cannot realize the ideas, the crude concept does not fit with the industry. For that, the guys from Search tried to realize these at least industrialists. This is now the OFS a cross between a shotgun and a sniper rifle with an ancient one.)
        1. Kars
          Kars 17 March 2013 19: 06
          0
          ______________________________
    2. Prohor
      Prohor 15 March 2013 20: 25
      0
      BPS has no development prospects, it is at the top of its evolution, and KS has.
      This, of course, is unrealistic, but if you make the lining of the cumulative funnel of gold (plasticity and very high density), and make the shape of the funnel not a cone with a direct generatrix, but with a generatrix of variable curvature (like a musical pipe), or cylindrical - the KS will pierce the armor in times thicker than BPS guns of the same caliber.
      We were told at the military department that they tried to introduce "pipe-like funnels" into production, but they turned out to be very difficult to manufacture.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 15 March 2013 23: 04
        +1
        Quote: Prokhor
        but if you make the lining of the cumulative funnel of gold

        By the way, we were armed with cumulative shells with funnels made of iron (steel?) And copper, and so, shells with a copper funnel have more penetrating ability than with iron.

        Quote: Prokhor
        .... and make the shape of the funnel not a cone with a direct generatrix, but with a generatrix of variable curvature (like a musical pipe), or a cylindrical ...

        I came across similar material for a long time. I wanted to refresh my memory, but in net found only cumulative charges with a classic funnel sad
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 20 March 2013 21: 54
          +1
          Quote: Bad_gr
          By the way, we were armed with cumulative shells with funnels made of iron (steel?) And copper, and so, shells with a copper funnel have more penetrating ability than with iron.

          I wonder why the minus is set?
          Is there any doubt that the funnel made of copper has more breakdown effect than the iron one? So after all, there are guides on shells - the information is from there and you don’t need to double-check that big mind. Or was it even lack of traction?
      2. Crang
        Crang 16 March 2013 16: 46
        +1
        You know in the 50s they thought that too. In the late 50s, when all tanks had only monolithic armor, powerful cumulative shells were created that penetrated any tank armor and far exceeded BPSs. Moreover, cumulative shells do not lose their effectiveness with increasing distance. The transition to smoothbore guns is also partly related to this. And what happened? 10-20 years passed, and the main fighting vehicle of the tank to fight their own kind became BOPS. It is the shells of this type that are now actively developing and improving. Why? There are two main reasons for this:
        1. BOPS is much more difficult to parry than the COP. A lot of things were invented against the COP - composite armor, DZ, KAZT, semi-active plates, etc. All this is very effective against cumulative shells. At the same time, the effectiveness of all these drugs against BOPS is much lower.
        2. The most important is probably speed. Under the conditions of reliable operation of the warhead of the CS, as well as the power of the projectile itself, its initial speed is limited to 900-1000m / s. Even with the current SLAs, this limits the effective firing range in terms of accuracy to ~ 1500m. Today it’s not enough. So forget about cumulative shells. The cumulative warhead is now the inheritance of ATGMs and rocket propelled grenades.
      3. alex86
        alex86 17 March 2013 10: 06
        0
        The "pipe-like funnel" has different velocities of the generated cumulative jet - at the top (where the opening angle is small), the velocity is higher than at the outlet, where the opening angle is large; when detonated at a greater than optimal distance from the armor (with a screen), the effectiveness drops sharply. True, the armor action is higher due to the larger diameter of the punched hole.
  34. Val_y
    Val_y 15 March 2013 15: 38
    -1
    Most likely exemplary, since it seems to me that the bow projection of the tower is very weak in terms of holding the projectile to the reserved volume. Ricochet of a shell from the bottom of the DZ tower and that's it soldier the tower is jammed. I think in front of either re-planning, or you need to put a barbet.
    1. Prohor
      Prohor 15 March 2013 20: 28
      +1
      "Reschedule" ??? !!! So are you the tower designer? good
    2. BruderV
      BruderV 15 March 2013 23: 48
      +1
      Why are you all pestering this lure? There will be no ricochet there, a long crowbar is not a bullet, it does not ricochet, but is scattered into pieces. How many more times does this need to be written?
  35. SOUTH,
    SOUTH, 18 March 2013 04: 34
    0
    When put into service and how much?
  36. Crang
    Crang 20 March 2013 08: 19
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    You never know what you wanted.

    Accordingly, I absolutely care about your opinion and desires.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 March 2013 13: 22
      0
      Quote: Krang
      not absolutely a light bulb for your opinion and desire

      Me too. My main thing is to discredit your fantasies.
  37. Crang
    Crang 20 March 2013 15: 26
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Me too. My main thing is to discredit your fantasies.

    My fantasies are reality. We don’t need your engines. At the moment, due to their threat-grabbing design, the T-64B, T-64BV and T-64BM tanks almost from the USSR have already been cut into scrap metal for scrap. So you are fantasizing. Or not - you dream.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 March 2013 16: 20
      0
      Quote: Krang
      My fantasies are reality

      Naturally, in your inflamed imagination.
      Quote: Krang
      We don’t need your engines

      Well these are your problems, and the Indians are true too.
      Quote: Krang
      Scrap tanks T-64B, T-64BV and T-64BM that were almost left over from the USSR.

      Well, you are reducing the tank fleet, you don’t have spare parts for them - so it’s natural. UVZ does not allow them to be sold by lobbying the T-72. And we have almost completely sold the T-72, and we have been actively operating the T-64 for 20 years.
      Quote: Krang
      Or not - you dream.

      What? Can you formulate?
  38. Crang
    Crang 20 March 2013 16: 31
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Well these are your problems, and the Indians are true too.

    Yes, we do not have problems like that. And it was not with the engines.
    Quote: Kars
    What? Can you formulate?

    As I understand it, what would you sell us your stupid 2-stroke engines.
    Quote: Kars
    And we have almost completely sold the T-72, and the T-64 has been actively operated for 20 years.

    You are now almost defenseless.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 March 2013 18: 55
      -1
      Quote: Krang
      but we don’t have problems like that. And it wasn’t with the engines

      Oh yes, from this the specific power of the T-90 and T-90A directly rolls over. And the Indians call the T-90C a night butterfly.
      Quote: Krang
      As I understand it, what would you sell us your stupid 2-stroke engines.

      Strange, they are already selling them with success. Nobody put your tanks, even China.
      Quote: Krang
      You are now almost defenseless

      it is strange to hear it from those who hold only on the SNF
      1. Crang
        Crang 20 March 2013 20: 50
        +2
        Quote: Kars
        Oh yes, from this the specific power of the T-90 and T-90A directly rolls over. And the Indians call the T-90C a night butterfly.

        Engines in 1000hp and 1200hp We can start making a gas turbine engine again at 1500hp. A diesel of the same power is being prepared. Moreover, these 1200hp. with the B-99, these are full-fledged mustangs of a large and powerful V12. Your 1200 half-dead ponies with a 6TD working volume like that of a "Kamaz" is the same as a gasoline lighter with a resource of 50 km, boosted to death by three turbines and wildly screaming from the strain.
        Quote: Kars
        it is strange to hear it from those who hold only on the SNF

        Well, you are not holding on to anything. And who needs you? You are no longer visible. You and NATO are not needed for hell. Like Georgia.
        1. Kars
          Kars 20 March 2013 22: 21
          0
          Quote: Krang
          Engines in 1000l.s.

          Here's the reason for the weight gain compared to the T-72
          Quote: Krang
          1200l.s

          which you don’t put anywhere except the T-90MS running layout
          Quote: Krang
          We can start again GTD in 1500l.s

          as you start, and right away. Although why then from the gas turbine engine in 1250 the T-80U was nomad.
          Quote: Krang
          with a resource of 50km.

          yes yes of course just don't be nervous
          Quote: Krang
          And who needs you?

          It pleases me.
          Quote: Krang
          You and NATO do not need to hell
          Enough partnership
    2. Kars
      Kars 20 March 2013 18: 57
      -1
      ______________
  39. stalker
    stalker 20 March 2013 17: 34
    0
    The fact that it will not harm the tank will not be able to bring, but the fact that it breaks will be hit by dynamic protection or stuck in the cheekbones of the tower (the most armored part of the tank)
    I hope so
  40. say
    say 20 March 2013 17: 53
    0
    Good article thanks!
  41. Crang
    Crang 20 March 2013 18: 57
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    And as many as 20 years, wasted))))

    Have you spent? I know. No? "Prove your words."
    Quote: Kars
    We are doing what we have, and you are trying to modernize the flawed T-72, even Russia doesn’t want to buy an MS. And so far no one has become interested abroad. As a result, the T-80 is better than the T-72. The T-90 barely reached the T level. -80U, T-90A after 20 years reached the modifications of the T-80 of the 90s.

    Our armor is more powerful, guns are more powerful, shells are more powerful, SLA is better. And stop bringing here nonsense from the site of Andrew. Written the same as you.
    1. Kars
      Kars 20 March 2013 19: 03
      -3
      Quote: Krang
      Have you spent

      Russia with the T-90. At the same time, having refused to please UVZ from the T-80 UE Bars
      Quote: Krang
      "Prove Your Words"

      just as you prove yours))))))
      And this is evident with a naked eye.
      Quote: Krang
      our ronya’s more powerful, guns more powerful, shells more powerful, SLA is better

      Your armor is worse, the guns are more powerful only in your imagination, as are the Chinese. Shells - you froze when you were asked to prove your words that you have only training mangoes.
      1. Kars
        Kars 20 March 2013 19: 21
        0
        ____________
      2. Crang
        Crang 20 March 2013 20: 45
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        Russia with the T-90. At the same time, having refused to please UVZ from the T-80 UE Bars

        Well, I know that for you time has stopped since the times of the USSR. But we are developing. We create new tanks. Here's the T-90MS made. "Armata" will be coming soon. However, the T-90A will easily fry any of your tanks like a stupid pig.
        Quote: Kars
        just as you prove yours))))))

        Very interesting. On the Russian the site is a Ukrainian nationalist who frankly trample into Russian tanks into the ground (and Russian people in this way too) and he also demands that they prove the opposite! Moreover, he himself does not bother to give at least some arguments confirming his point of view. And only gives time after time pictures of what rubbish, which was outdated 30 years ago.
        Quote: Kars
        Your armor is worse, the guns are more powerful only in your imagination, as are the Chinese. Shells - you froze when you were asked to prove your words that you have only training mangoes.

        Our armor is much more powerful than yours. With your old 2A46M cannons and antediluvian ZBM-42 projectiles, you will not be able to penetrate the T-90A not only from 2 kilometers, but even when firing point-blank. And the new high-power BOPSs from the powerful T-90A cannon will sew your old T-64 and T-80 like a knife for opening cans of these cans. Here we need to film a new episode of the Polygon program. About T-90A. The target problem. Shooting at the old broken-down T-34s is somehow not spectacular. Do a favor. Come on any of your tanks. Even take the shells - we are confident in our T-90A. And the program will be interesting, and look at the pictures of the "Scimitar tower in flight"
        1. Kars
          Kars 20 March 2013 22: 29
          0
          Quote: Krang
          And here we are developing

          In a circle, coming to the 1985 results in 2004
          Quote: Krang
          That T-90MS did

          And we already sell Oplot))))
          Quote: Krang
          However, the T-90A will easily fry any of your tanks like a dumb pig.

          Yes, of course, drink valerian.
          Quote: Krang
          On the Russian site sits a Ukrainian nationalist who frankly trample into Russian tanks into the ground (and Russian people in this way too) and he also demands that they prove the opposite!

          But are you really? Again go to the unconscious? You are humiliating yourself with this.
          Quote: Krang
          And only gives time after time pictures of what rubbish, which was outdated 30 years ago.

          You have almost none. And why is it out of date?
          Quote: Krang
          Our armor is much more powerful than yours.

          I can do that too)))) We have more powerful armor than yours, you even have almost no Relic, and we have better ones on Bulaty.

          Quote: Krang
          ZBM-42

          We have Mango and most of the art shots exported along with the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Germany to the GSVG
          Quote: Krang
          Here we need to film a new episode of the Polygon program. About T-90A.
          You better review the impact force.

          Quote: Krang
          give me the brand of your new BOPS of increased power


          But the joke is that you have hysteria again, and slide into babble))))
          1. Crang
            Crang 21 March 2013 08: 47
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            In a circle, coming to the 1985 results in 2004

            We are again ahead of the world level. But you stayed there - in the 80s.

            Quote: Kars
            And we already sell Oplot))))

            Who are you selling to? Papuans? However, you are even poorer than the Papusas. You yourself cannot buy your Oplot.
            Quote: Kars
            Yes, of course, drink valerian.

            And a bucket of vodka will not hurt you.
            Quote: Kars
            But are you really? Again go to the unconscious? You are humiliating yourself with this.

            I’m afraid that you are humiliating Russia and the entire Russian people. I do not understand why the administration is silent. You just need to be banned from this site for life. That would carry all the nonsense there in their Ukraine. Here is a good video about you Ukrainian-nationalists:
            http://www.dentv.ru/content/view/o-sovremennom-russkom-natsionalizme/
            This is a clown about you. I have the same question. If you love Ukraine and Ukrainian tanks so much - what are you doing with us?
            Quote: Kars
            I can do that too)))) We have more powerful armor than yours, you even have almost no Relic, and we have better ones on Bulaty.

            Without any remote control, our armor itself is thicker and more powerful than yours. Well, and with the "Relic" that superiority is ours.
            Quote: Kars
            We have Mango and most of the art shots exported along with the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Germany to the GSVG

            "Mango" is an old BOPS of the Soviet period. its ultimate armor penetration at close range is 600mm, from a distance of 2km: 500-550mm. This projectile cannot penetrate the T-90A even at close range. As well as any modern Western MBT. How, then, can you so brazenly declare that your tanks are better than ours?
            Quote: Kars
            But the joke is that you have hysteria again, and slide into babble))))

            This is called verbal diarrhea. Let me remind you - my question is:
            Quote: Krang
            And also Kars - give me the brand of your new BOPS of increased power, which is more powerful than "Mango". I brought Russian and not one. Can't lead? Then, despite all the verbal diarrhea that will flow from you - the public will consider them simply no.

            And here is what he answers me:
            Quote: Kars
            But the joke is that you have hysteria again, and slide into babble))))

            It? Of course it is.
            1. Kars
              Kars 21 March 2013 14: 19
              0
              Quote: Krang
              We are already ahead of the world level again

              Maybe if the MS goes into the series, but this is not provided.
              Quote: Krang
              But you stayed there - in the 80s.

              Yes, there are no T-84s, BM Oplot and BM Bulat are at the world level and are superior to Russian production cars. So there are few of them - so we do not entertain imperial ambitions.
              Quote: Krang
              Who are you selling to? Papuans?

              But you weren’t able to get involved in MS even with lured Indians. And you make the main supplies of tanks on credit, with your own loans.
              Quote: Krang
              I’m afraid that you are humiliating Russia and the entire Russian people.

              The truth cannot humiliate, in contrast to the hysterical behavior of the defective representative of the Russian people with an inferiority complex.
              Quote: Krang
              You just need to be banned from this site for life.

              Contact the administration.
              Quote: Krang
              If you love Ukraine and Ukrainian tanks so much, what do you do with us?

              It has not yet been written that the site is exclusively for Russians, and it is rumored that it was not registered in Russia .. And I am here because it is a military site, and I like the topic, and especially the interface. Yes, and most visitors are adequate people, unlike you childish infantility.

              Quote: Krang
              With this shell T-90A can not even be punched point blank.

              Really? And the board? And maybe all the same you can somehow prove this thesis?

              Quote: Krang
              As well as any modern western MBT

              But to keep this in mind is the main BPS of the Russian army, you could not bring any information about adopting, manufacturing and delivering more modern troops to the troops.

              Quote: Krang
              And here is what he answers me:
              There was a picture. Did you not recognize the shells?

              Quote: Krang
              Russian cited and not one

              You haven’t brought anything, and now you’re just lying.
              Quote: Krang
              It? Of course it

              There is a hysteria, which is the end in itself of my interest in you. From a technical point of view, you are slightly more than zero.
          2. Alexander
            Alexander 8 September 2014 10: 56
            0
            You only sell strongholds to militias and, by the way, don’t willingly take those, because they too easily turn into a pile of metal. So you can not boast, the war showed what he is capable of.
  42. Crang
    Crang 20 March 2013 20: 59
    +1
    And also Kars - give me the brand of your new BOPS of increased power, which is more powerful than "Mango". I brought Russian and not one. Can't lead? Then, despite all the verbal diarrhea that will pour from you, the public will consider them simply no.
  43. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 15: 13
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    Maybe if the MS goes into the series, but this is not provided.

    Why T-90MS? T-90A is already the best.
    Quote: Kars
    Yes, there are no T-84s, BM Oplot and BM Bulat are at the world level and are superior to Russian production cars. So there are few of them - so we do not entertain imperial ambitions.

    You don’t have them at all. The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine bought 10 T-84BMs on loan, which took part in the parade, but could not pay the money. The tanks had to be returned to the factory. Now T-84MS you do not have a single one. Only the old T-64. We have only the T-80BV and T-80U - 4000 pieces - more than you have all the tanks of all types combined, including the T-34 monuments.
    Quote: Kars
    But you weren’t able to get involved in MS even with lured Indians. And you make the main supplies of tanks on credit, with your own loans.

    We sold them the T-90S. And they are satisfied.
    Quote: Kars
    The truth cannot humiliate, in contrast to the hysterical behavior of the defective representative of the Russian people with an inferiority complex.

    Or the whole "flawed Russian people"? You already finish talking. In principle, everyone already sees who you really are. You will burn yourself with your hatred for us.
    Quote: Kars
    Contact the administration.

    I will certainly turn.
    Quote: Kars
    It has not yet been written that the site is exclusively for Russians, and it is rumored that it was not registered in Russia .. And I am here because it is a military site, and I like the topic, and especially the interface. Yes, and most visitors are adequate people, unlike you childish infantility.

    Oh oh oh. And you, I suppose, are such a respectable middle-aged uncle, in a jacket and with such a deep baritone in your voice. They do the very nasty job. Such "baritone" and vparivayut the most rubbish.
    Quote: Kars
    Really? And the board? And maybe all the same you can somehow prove this thesis?

    Well, of course - the T-34s could also have "pushed the Tiger" into the side, but that the ratio of losses was not in favor of the T-34. A typical tank battle starts from 2-3 km. Our T-90A will be the first to detect you due to more modern thermal imagers and will not turn sideways towards you. They will simply shoot your T-80s. Like partridges in a shooting range.
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 15: 48
      -1
      Quote: Krang
      The T-34s could also "punch the Tiger" into the side, but that the ratio of losses was not in favor of the T-34.

      The T-34 was in a different weight category. It was a medium tank. And there are no statistics of losses from direct collisions with the Tiger, but it will have to include those tigers that the crews blew up or threw without fuel and ammunition when the T-34 bypassed them and surrounded.

      Quote: Krang
      Peak tank battle begins with 2-3km. Our T-90A will find you first due to more modern thermal imagers and will not turn to board you.

      Oddly, we have the best thermal imager. You could put an analogue only on the MS.
      and besides, you couldn’t prove that the T-84 or BM Oplot couldn’t penetrate you, and the fact that the T-90A couldn’t beat its forehead with our dynamic defense was understandable.
      So the question remains valid
      Quote: Kars
      And maybe all the same you can somehow prove this thesis?

      Even a simple T-84U
      1. Kars
        Kars 21 March 2013 15: 49
        0
        Quote: Krang
        T-90A is already the best

        He reached only the level of T-80U, and is inferior to the modifications of the T-80UM UE
        Quote: Krang
        You don’t have them at all. The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine bought a loan of 10 T-84BM,

        Well, there are a hundred Bulatov, just parity with your T-90A
        Quote: Krang
        We have only the T-80BV and T-80U - 4000 pieces - more than you have all the tanks of all types combined, including the T-34 monuments.


        T Equipment and weapons

        T-55 USSR medium tank 112 [6] in storage
        T-64Б USSR main battle tank 1667 [6]
        T-72 USSR main battle tank 1032 [6] in reserve
        T-80 USSR main battle tank 167 [6]
        T-84U “Oplot” Ukraine main battle tank 10 [6]
        BM "Oplot" Ukraine main battle tank 1
        BM "Bulat" Ukraine main battle tank 98

        for a small country, even in abundance. We have no border with China, thank God, at least in the short term, who knows.
        Quote: Krang
        We sold them the T-90S. And they are satisfied.

        When was this? And they are not particularly happy if they throw so much dough into Arjun. They didn’t have a choice either. In the USSR, they also built a tank repair / production plant under T-72
        Quote: Krang
        Or the whole "flawed Russian people"? You already finish talking

        There are no you personally, and a few more personalities, the percentage of visitors to this resource.
        Quote: Krang
        In principle, everyone already sees who you really are

        Is it all that you also have a multiplication of personalities? Maybe a few more of all will respond, only with a registration date of at least two weeks ago.

        Quote: Krang
        You yourself will burn yourself with your hatred for us.

        But I do not hate you, but I am sorry.

        Quote: Krang
        And you must assume that such a respectable uncle of middle age, in a jacket and with such a deep baritone in his voice

        Almost pleased, except that the jacket is now gone.


        and what about BM Oplot already to say, T-90A to him as if to the moon on foot.
  44. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 15: 13
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    But to keep this in mind is the main BPS of the Russian army, you could not bring any information about adopting, manufacturing and delivering more modern troops to the troops.

    And I will not bring anything to the Ukrainian spy. This is what a "surprise" if something happens.
    Quote: Kars
    There was a picture. Did you not recognize the shells?

    I have already told you a hundred times. Write in your own words. Are you a photographer or something? Photos they cannot replace dialogue. If you want to prove something - write in your own words. Describe the performance characteristics and principle of operation. While this is not there, you are no one.
    Quote: Kars
    You haven’t brought anything, and now you’re just lying.

    Read the topic about "Yatagan". Led. If you don't find it, I'll stick it with a snout. about 740mm ammunition. Although I'll stick it, otherwise you won't find it:
    The rounds "Lead-1" ZVBM-22, with the ZBM-59 projectile, 740 mm long, charge 4Ж96, and the Lead-2 ZVBM-23, with the ZBM-60 projectile 740 mm long, 4Ж96 high-power charge can only be used for the 2A46M5 gun, with modified AZ, which are installed only on the modification of the T-90A tank and the new T-72BM. So you are lying.
    Quote: Kars
    There is a hysteria, which is the end in itself of my interest in you. From a technical point of view, you are slightly more than zero.

    What do you mean. I can "talk" with you in this way endlessly. Until they take you to the durka. Where is the most suitable place for you.
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 15: 33
      -1
      Quote: Krang
      And I will not bring anything to the Ukrainian spy. This is what a "surprise" if something happens.

      Yes, yes of course. Everything you have, heaps like that shoe polish))))
      But at the same time, for some reason, I must tell you about the latest BPS of Ukraine.
      Quote: Krang
      Photos they cannot replace dialogue.

      They are proof. In words, I can say what you want to say, how you do it when you lie.

      Quote: Krang
      rounds "Lead-1" ZVBM-22, with a projectile ZBM-59, length 740mm, charge 4Ж96 and "Lead-2 ZVBM-23, with a projectile ZBM-60, length 740mm

      Well? There are a lot of names, tattoos, leads - and you make them? Besides, these are still Soviet times and general developments. There are no troops in the army.
      Quote: Krang
      ogut can only be used for the 2A46M5 gun

      There was no mention of this weapon at all when they were developed in the USSR, the point here was not the weapon, but in the AZ, where they could not fit in, while the MZ T-80U with minimal overheads.
      Quote: Krang
      I can "talk" with you in this way endlessly.

      And who is against?
      Quote: Krang
      Until you are taken to Durkee. Where is the place for you, by the way?

      I will not be interested in you in the same room.

      Quote: Krang

      And one more thing: the T-90A surpasses the T-84BM "Oplot-M" in all basic characteristics and will easily destroy it on the battlefield.

      Yes, yes, of course, get the orderly out of the way. Maybe you feel better and you can try to substantiate your fantasies.
    2. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 16: 03
      0
      Quote: Krang
      And I will not bring anything to the Ukrainian spy. This is what a "surprise" if something happens.

      By the way, yes, tanks are equipped with rails and power shields, but I won’t justify anything for you as a Russian spy))))))))))))
  45. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 15: 15
    +1
    And one more thing: the T-90A is superior to the T-84BM "Oplot-M" in all the main characteristics and will easily destroy it on the battlefield.
  46. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 16: 48
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    But at the same time, for some reason, I must tell you about the latest BPS of Ukraine.

    So the ones that I have given are no longer the newest. Newest Secret. And if you have "secret" ones that are still being developed after the Soviet "Mango" of the 80s, then this is a complete UG in general.
    Quote: Kars
    Yes, yes, of course, get the orderly out of the way. Maybe you feel better and you can try to substantiate your fantasies.

    Yes, this is reality. And this is your nightmare from which you will not wake up. Your "Oplot" cannot penetrate the T-90A at close range, but our T-90A will sew your "Oplot" from 3 km. Your "Oplot" will be able to see our T-90A at night only from 3 km, and our T-90A will see yours from 5 km. Everything is kaput for you.
    Quote: Kars
    They are proof. In words, I can say what you want to say, how you do it when you lie.

    Oh, how interesting. And what is photography? What does she give? An idea of ​​armor penetration, armor and electronics? Just a picture and that's it. And the old one. We still had such under the USSR.
    Quote: Kars
    Well? There are a lot of names, tattoos, leads - and you make them? Besides, these are still Soviet times and general developments. There are no troops in the army.

    We produce. The troops have and are supplied. And all of you are sitting with "Mango".
    Quote: Kars
    and what about BM Oplot already to say, T-90A to him as if to the moon on foot.

    It looks like a steroid concrete-hung T-34. There was such a model in EMNIP in the 42nd. Have you decided to repeat it? Shit wrapped in candy wrapper?
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 19: 36
      0
      Quote: Krang
      then I brought this is not the newest

      And even their production and delivery to the troops is not proven by you.
      Quote: Krang
      The latest secret.

      Quote: Kars
      by the way, tanks are equipped with rails and power shields, but I will not justify anything to you as a Russian spy) I will not justify anything)))))))

      Quote: Krang
      Yes it's a reality

      Quote: Kars
      base their fantasies.

      ?
      Quote: Krang
      Your "Oplot" cannot penetrate the T-90A at close range, but our T-90A will sew your "Oplot" from 3 km.

      Really? And I say the opposite))))))
      Quote: Krang
      And the old one. We still had such under the USSR.
      So bring, otherwise you will look like a liar, which you are.

      Quote: Krang
      Your "Oplot" will be able to see our T-90A at night only from 3 km, and our T-90A will see yours from 5 km. All of you are kaput

      Really?
      "Buran-M" This increases the range of target recognition (from 1200 to 1800 meters).
      How much do you and Katrina have? More than a couple of dozen (and this is for such a huge country)))

      bastion
      Thermal imaging sighting system PTT-2
      Working range, m, not less than:
      • detection range in a narrow field of view
      8000
      • recognition range in a narrow field of view
      4500
      • identification range in a narrow field of view
      2500
      http://www.morozov.com.ua/rus/body/oplot_mbt.php
      Now prove your words with reference to an official source.

      Quote: Krang
      We produce. The troops are and are being supplied.

      Really? Can you prove it?
      Quote: Krang
      Shit wrapped in candy wrapper?

      Why are you talking about the T-90? Its Indians and Algeria are buying. The only country with a developed industry and tank-building industry that bought tanks from Russia is South Korea, and then it took Soviet-made tanks T-80U
      1. Kars
        Kars 21 March 2013 19: 47
        0
        First, for reference, I’ll say the following (because from experience in communicating even with tank experts I know that they have little idea what the T-90S is). T-90S - there is nothing more than a T-72 tank with weapons, defense, guidance systems, etc. etc. from ... right, from the T-80U developed in KB-3 of the Kirov plant
        power of the V-84MS diesel engine - 840 hp, GTD-1250 - 1250 hp. (I don't even go into details that the T-90S receives less than 800 "horses" for the "star"), and the masses of the tanks are the same - 46 tons each. By the way, in Omsk it was announced that the T-90S had a diesel engine with 1000 h.p. (you should have heard the laughter that was heard among the experts on this matter). But ... this is a pure bluff. This engine does not exist! Those. there are prototypes, but the engine, as they say among engine engineers, does not work. He failed to pass the state tests, burned down on tests in India. And from the performance of the T-90S it was clear that as he lacked strength, he still lacks.

        For the uninformed, it is necessary to inform the following that in Russia there is a state program according to which it is FORBIDDEN to criticize the T-90S tank, and therefore the command is given to PROMOTE this tank everywhere. Do you know why? Because at one time Yeltsin said that the best tanks and engines are made in the Urals. And now, incl. and big generals with stripes don't know what to do about it. We have done enough with the "rivalry" of the T-80U and T-90S so much that they themselves got confused.


        http://www.alexfiles99.narod.ru/library/0001/diesel_or_gasturbine_critiques.htm
  47. Ilya Gurenko
    Ilya Gurenko 21 March 2013 18: 49
    +1
    Our designers rape themes that could be embodied about 15 years ago, but in general this excellent modification +
  48. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 20: 39
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    And even their production and delivery to the troops is not proven by you.

    You clown can’t even name the brand of your latest BOPS, and you still have the audacity to accuse me of not proving the fact of delivering the most famous new ones to the troops. To the fool.
    Quote: Kars
    Really? And I say the opposite))))))

    Prove it. Or did you call the armor penetration figures and the level of resistance with this word? The armor penetration of your "Mango" has long been known. 25 years ago. we had a tank which he could not penetrate.
    Quote: Kars
    So bring, otherwise you will look like a liar, which you are.

    Well, what did you show? Russian T-80UM "Bars" in the photo? So this Our Russian tank
    Quote: Kars
    How much do you and Katrina have? More than a couple of dozens more (and this is for such a huge country))) stronghold PTT-2 thermal imaging sighting system Operating ranges, m, no less than: • detection range in a narrow field of view 8000 • recognition range in a narrow field of view 4500 • range of identification in a narrow field of view 2500 http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/oplot_mbt.phpA now prove your words with reference to an official source.

    Ti-sight "Essa" has a target recognition range characteristic in any conditions not less than 3000m. The history is silent about identification, but according to some sources it is about 6000m. There is no data on "discovery".
    Quote: Kars
    Really? Can you prove it?

    I already told you. You can’t even name, even those that have just been created and are not delivered anywhere. And you want something from me.
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 20: 58
      0
      Quote: Krang
      brand of your latest BOPS

      BM-44U1
      Has it become easier?
      Quote: Krang
      I have not proved the fact of delivery to the troops of the already known latest.

      But he didn’t prove the network. And if he could, he would have already run.
      Quote: Krang
      To Durkee
      Say hello there from me.

      Quote: Krang
      Prove it.

      I do the same as you.
      Quote: Krang
      The armor penetration of your "Mango" has long been known

      like yours.
      Quote: Krang
      Russian T-80UM "Bars" in the photo? So this is our Russian tank

      Yes, yours is really promising, unlike the T-90. But you profiled him.

      Quote: Krang
      Ti-sight "Essa" has a target recognition range characteristic in any conditions not less than 3000m. The history is silent about identification, but according to some sources it is about 6000m. There is no data on "discovery".

      And? Where is the confirmation of your words? I don’t believe you as a liar.
      Moreover, he lied and admitted

      Quote: Krang
      Your "Oplot" will be able to see our T-90A at night only from 3 km, and our T-90A will see yours from 5 km.

      Quote: Krang
      I already told you.

      Yes, I do not care what you said, you're not a word that lies)))))
  49. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 20: 39
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    First, for reference, I will say the following (because from my experience of communicating even with tank specialists I know that they have little idea of ​​what a T-90S is). T-90S is nothing more than a T-72 tank with weapon systems, protection, guidance, etc. etc. from ... right, from the T-80U, developed in KB-3 of the Kirov plant, the power of the V-84MS diesel engine is 840 hp, the GTD-1250 is 1250 hp. (I don't even go into details that the T-90S receives less than 800 "horses" for the "asterisk"), and the masses of the tanks are the same - 46 tons each. By the way, in Omsk it was announced that the T-90S had a diesel engine with 1000 h.p. (you should have heard the laughter that was heard among the experts on this matter). But ... this is a pure bluff. This engine does not exist! Those. there are prototypes, but the engine, as they say among engine specialists, does not work. He failed to pass the state tests, burned down on tests in India. And from the performance of the T-90S it was clear that as he lacked strength, he still lacks. For the uninformed, it is necessary to inform the following that in Russia there is a state program according to which it is FORBIDDEN to criticize the T-90S tank, and therefore the command is given to PROMOTE this tank everywhere. Do you know why? Because at one time Yeltsin said that the best tanks and engines are made in the Urals. And now, incl. and the big generals with stripes don't know what to do about it. We did so much with the "rivalry" of the T-80U and T-90S that they themselves got confused.

    Oh, how this clown got me .... With his stupid specialists on the BTV website where the same clowns are sitting ... T-90S is an export modification of T-90 and T-90A. The tanks are different, but the export modification is called the same. T-90S is completed under the order. Depending on the wishes of the customer, they will install everything he needs, except for secret cannons, shells and armor. But even unclassified ones are better than yours. You have not done anything in all 20 years. All your new tanks are T-80UD shit-hung with more and more powerful (on paper) engines. Well, it’s fashionable to paint so that it looks good in the photo, too, do not forget. Nothing fundamentally new. Only the form changes - the content remains the same - 20 years.
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 21: 01
      -1
      Quote: Krang
      BTVT site

      ))))))))) the link is strangely clear that it is not with BTT.
      Quote: Krang
      depending on the wishes of the customer, they will install everything he needs, except for secret cannons, shells and armor

      Yes, yes, of course, the Indians simply kicked their arms and legs so that they would not put a 1000 strong engine.
      Quote: Krang
      Only the form changes - the content remains the same - 20 years.

      But better than yours. Our even 50 year old is better.
  50. Crang
    Crang 21 March 2013 21: 14
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    like yours.

    What do you know how much "Lead-2" breaks through? Well, how much?
    Quote: Kars
    Say hello there from me.

    I’ll tell you that you will come soon. I myself am a doctor there.
    Quote: Kars
    And? Where is the confirmation of your words? I don’t believe you as a liar. Moreover, I myself lied and admitted

    And as I believe you, "a respectable uncle with a deep baritone."
    Quote: Kars
    Yes, yours is really promising, unlike the T-90. But you profiled him.

    He was abandoned because he was inferior to the T-90.
    Quote: Kars
    )))))))) the link is strangely clear that it is not with BTT.

    I know. I even looked. Well, this does not change the essence.
    Quote: Kars
    But better than yours. Our even 50 year old is better.

    I'm afraid that your best tanks today roughly correspond to our base T-90s around the mid-90s.
    1. Kars
      Kars 21 March 2013 21: 22
      -1
      Quote: Krang
      What do you know how much "Lead-2"

      You only have mango
      Quote: Krang
      I myself am a doctor there
      Yes of course.

      Quote: Krang
      And as I believe you, "a solid uncle with a deep baritone"

      Yes, I do not care, I give links, and then I do not care for someone like you to dissuade, and I write here not for this.
      Quote: Kars
      There is a hysteria, which is the end in itself of my interest in you. From a technical point of view, you are slightly more than zero.


      Quote: Krang
      I know. I even looked. Well, it doesn’t change the essence
      Where are they compared to your baseless conviction bordering on fanaticism.

      Quote: Krang
      I'm afraid that your best tanks today roughly correspond to our base T-90s around the mid-90s.


      Do not be afraid, it’s your tanks that didn’t go much further than 1985.