What a "fifth generation" you have!

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What a "fifth generation" you have!


Yes, it is hard to imagine today's world without a certain set of gadgets, the main feature of which is to demonstrate the power of their owner. In our case, the state. And the more elements from the mandatory list a country has at its disposal, the cooler it seems to be than others.



Nuclear weapon, intercontinental ballistic missiles missiles, strategic bombers, aircraft carriers - that's what's on this list. And it turns out that such, to put it mildly, economically unadvanced countries as Pakistan and North Korea are, due to their entry into the "nuclear club", seemingly laying claim to something.

In fact, nothing special, but they have to be taken into account. The situation, as they say, obliges. And the same Japanese, although they grimace when something like that starts from the territory of the DPRK in their direction, grumble, but they can do nothing except improve their system Defense in case something meaningful suddenly flies.


Well, now fifth generation fighters have been added to this list.


What the fifth generation actually is, the debates are still ongoing. The distinctive features are somehow not all sorted out on the shelves, and therefore this includes stealth, and internal bays for weapons, and "supercruise", that is, supersonic flight without afterburner, and super maneuverability. In general, there are no clear definitions, everyone really wants to build something like the fifth generation.

A fighter is simply a minimum expenditure with maximum return. It is significantly cheaper than a strategic bomber and an aircraft carrier, and we won't even mention nuclear weapons, here we need science in conjunction with industry.

So a fifth-generation fighter is the minimum that some countries can afford. Status…


The first was, naturally, the United States. They sawed up their F-22 in 2005. China was second, the J-20 flew in 2017, Russia was third, the Su-57 finally entered service in 2020.

And what can we say? Well, only that these are completely different machines. Perhaps the only similarities are in their weight and size characteristics, and even then, the takeoff run is decent, from 34 to 38 tons. So yes, these are heavy fighters (in every sense), designed to gain air superiority by destroying enemy aircraft. The set also includes modern materials, radars with AFAR and "supercruise".


The second in line were South Korea, Japan and Turkey, which created their fifth-generation aircraft at least at the prototype level. And this is already a decent step forward, since in Europe they have not yet advanced beyond mock-ups. And while European aircraft manufacturers are creating various combinations of alliances, countries that act alone are already getting ahead.

If we talk about the combat capability of already created fifth-generation aircraft, then only the American F-22A looks complete. Unlike the Chinese and Russian aircraft, the Raptor is theoretically completely complete as a combat vehicle and can (again, theoretically) fight enemy aircraft. In practice, everything is much sadder and the F-22A has carried out one fight with an air target in 10 years - an unarmed reconnaissance balloon of China.

In addition, the complete unwillingness of the United States to provide the aircraft to its allies under any conditions was particularly alarming. Even the loyal Japanese were refused, despite numerous requests. Instead, the allies received the F-35. But many experts deny this aircraft, the deliveries of which began in the summer of 2015, belonging to the fifth generation as not fully meeting the required parameters.

Moreover, the F-35 constantly reveals problems as it is used. For example, an unpleasant surprise was the impossibility of long-term supersonic flight due to skin defects. Yes, one F-135 engine from Pratt & Whitney accelerates the F-35 to a speed of 2M, and the aircraft does not lose its stealth, but the airframe and skin are subject to significant wear.


Interestingly, judging by the statements from the US, the F-35 program is considered more of a failure there than the F-22 program. And although the F-22 received the very controversial nickname "the lazy plane" with a hint at the limited number of functions (interception and air combat), the F-35 did nothing more than complement it, taking on strike functions when working with ground targets.

Yes, the Americans failed to produce a single universal fifth-generation aircraft, but there is no tragedy in this. We also have highly specialized aircraft such as the Su-27 and MiG-31, and this is normal for a country that can afford it.

But those who can’t, operate with a single aircraft like the Rafale or Typhoon.


And by the way, in aviation The US Navy has not experienced a qualitative leap either. The F-35Cs entering service with aircraft carrier wings complement the existing fourth-generation F/A-18s, taking on reconnaissance and coordination functions first and foremost, and only then strike functions. And here it is not that the F-35 is somehow bad, it is just that the F/A-18 is good.

And here is the result: the F-35A was received by the Air Forces of Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, Japan, and a number of other countries, including Germany, are next in line. The F-35B with short takeoff and vertical landing should be received by Great Britain and Italy.

By acquiring the F-35A, the importing countries have certainly strengthened their military aviation fleet. But at the same time, they have become even more dependent on the United States, since without the Americans, the combat use of these machines is impossible. Flight assignments are approved by a single center in North America, and software updates are available only with Washington's approval.

And now we are watching how, within the framework of their own programs, Germany, France and Spain are starting to develop their fifth-generation aircraft, and Great Britain and Italy are starting to develop their own. And Japan and South Korea are already taking to the skies with their prototypes. After all, combat independence is a very big deal.


NGAF program aircraft demonstrator mockup

And here, small but very unyielding Israel, which so successfully holds the entire Arab world by the throat, somehow managed to wring its own status in the F-35 program from the US. As a result, the exclusive F-35I "Adir" with an alternative weapon control system, Israeli avionics, and Israeli weapons allows, among other things, to pursue a completely independent policy in terms of planning and conducting operations.


It is clear from the examples given that purchasing such a complex type of weapon as aircraft, especially modern aircraft, is nothing more than becoming dependent on the supplier.

And this is understood in a number of countries, where they are trying their best to build their own planes. This is how new aviation powers appear, and not because they have nowhere to put their resources, but on the contrary, from a desire to gain a certain independence.

For example, Turkey. It was punished by abandoning the F-35 program for purchasing the Russian S-400 air defense system. It seemed that the country's defense capability would be weakened, but here it is worth assessing the situation that developed after the purchase of the S-400, today definitely one of the best air defense systems in the world. Turkey has more than enough aircraft, so abandoning the JSF program for the F-35A was not something significant. On the contrary, the Turks intensified work on their own aircraft within the framework of the Milli Muharip Uzak program, which began in 2010.

The result was an aircraft that was given the name Kaan.


Something far from perfect, and on imported engines. At the first stage, these are American F-110-GE-129 from F-15E and F-16C, at the second stage – a new engine from Rolls-Royce based on the existing EJ200 from Eurofighter Typhoon. However, it is not worth excluding the participation of Russian manufacturers in the project.

An interesting passage came out in Japan. The Japanese were the first to lift their fifth-generation aircraft, the experimental X-2016 Shinshin, into the air in 2, but for some reason they did not produce it.


Instead, American F-35A were purchased, and the Mitsubishi concern received the task of developing the sixth-generation fighter X-3, for which, however, there are already XF-9 engines, prototypes of which are undergoing bench testing.

South Korea is also trying to build its own fifth-generation fighter, and prototypes are flying successfully.


The KF-21 Boramae first flew in 2021, and six prototypes have already been built for testing. But the Koreans cheated a little and did not develop their own engine, limiting the project to buying American F-414 engines.

Indian dances are also around this engine. We have already written many times about what the Indian military wanted from their domestic project of the Tejas aircraft and what they got. It didn't turn out very well, but the road is mastered by the one who walks, and therefore in India two projects of promising combat aircraft on F-414 engines are being developed in parallel: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF).


In general, the two programs look crazy: the planes are almost identical in terms of weight and dimensions, the length-width-wingspan fluctuate within 0,5 meters, the mass of empty planes, as well as the maximum takeoff weight, are approximately the same, in fact, the only difference is that the AMSA project has more composite materials in its design.

The AMCA program aircraft is intended to replace our Su-2035MKI sometime there (in 30), and the TEDBF will replace the MiG-29K/KUB in the air groups of the Vikramaditya, Vikrant and Vishal aircraft carriers.


In general, it's quite a dance, especially since the French joined in, wanting to "help" with the engines. We remember how the epic with the SaM-146 for the Superjet ended, in general the idea is so-so, there can be no talk of any independence. Well, the Indians have not been able to finish their domestic Kaveri engine since 1986.

The engine is the heart of any aircraft and, strangely enough, an aircraft is created around the engine. Without its own engine, one can only dream of an aircraft. For India, for Turkey, which have ambitions but no design school, of course, engines will be found. American F110 and F414, European EJ200 and M88. No problem, especially if for money.

But these will be engines of the previous generation. And of course, when using them, Turkish, Korean, Indian engineers will never be able to achieve the level of aircraft characteristics that products from the USA, China and Russia demonstrate. We are simply silent about technological dependence here. The only ones who will really be able to show something will be the Japanese precisely because they have their own engine for the new aircraft.

Meanwhile, there was a very sensible Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program, which could have been crowned with the same success as the joint work of Russian-Indian designers on the BrahMos missile. A mountain of various agreements, protocols, and contracts on joint work were signed.

And the FGFA fighter, created on the basis of the T-50, had every chance to see the sky. And the sales prospects were estimated at up to 1000 aircraft, which in financial terms should have warmed the hearts no worse than curry.

But no. The Indians started their usual dances around the plane and danced the project to death. For starters, the FGFA demanded that it be made a two-seater. Yes, one cannot disagree with this, the quality of training of Indian pilots is such that it is better not to risk it and give the pilot a weapons operator to help. One flies, the other shoots. It will do. And the Su-30MKI operators, of whom there are already quite a few trained, also need to be put somewhere, they can’t be forced into retirement because of the aircraft replacement?

Naturally, as is customary in India, the aircraft had to be able to use Indian weapons and be assembled at local enterprises.

In general, the project was not liked, and the visibility is higher than that of American aircraft, and the avionics are worse than the Israeli ones... As a result, India rejected the FGFA in favor of its own AMSA and Tejas knockoffs, receiving as a result two very light quasi-fighters, in no way similar to the Su-57, which was eventually created in Russia.


Not "Mirage" but "Tejas"

Something strange happened in the final: instead of its own fifth-generation fighter, albeit with Israeli guts, India is buying French Rafales and Russian Su-30MKIs, which are in no way fifth generation. And it’s even funny to talk about local knockoffs in terms of their belonging to the “fives”.

But the main thing that the Indian military has lost is a clear perspective for the future development of aviation. Since AMCA and all other projects are very small aircraft of the Yak-130 class, then the heavy aircraft class will include imported aircraft. And this, as you understand, is not in favor of the Indian Air Force.

And here it makes sense to look towards India’s opponent/rival, that is, China.

China can serve as an excellent example of how to have nothing and end up with everything. If a country tries to pursue an independent policy in terms of developing military equipment and invests resources in the development of advanced technologies, sooner or later it will bear fruit. The principle of "What we can't make - we'll buy" - as Russian practice shows, is vicious to the point of ugliness and sooner or later leads to the complete degradation of individual industries. And those, no worse than a stone around the neck, drag everything else down.

In China, they did not focus on “production at home”, in the style of India, but instead focused on “we produce our own”. As a result, today the PLA Air Force is the owner of the world’s largest fleet of fifth-generation fighters, more than 300 J-20 fighters have already been built, and this is almost half as many as the US has F-22s left in service (about 180 units). F-35, you say? Well, I can’t bring myself to call it a “five”.


Yes, the first J-20 Black Eagles flew on Russian AL-31Fs according to the Indian scenario. Then they were replaced by WS-10Cs, and not long ago WS-15s came into play, which are more powerful and also equipped with a controlled thrust vector.

Are WS-15 better than Russian engines? Of course not. But the path of development of Chinese aircraft manufacturers is more fruitful than the path of Indian designers, who are ready to buy from outside everything that they are not able to produce. As a result, China will have complete independence from external sources of aviation equipment supplies, which is very useful in today's political instability.

It is worth noting another fact: the J-20 was developed much later than the F-22. About 15 years of difference is a lot, but the US had a century-old design school on its side, and China had only persistence and the ability to copy and draw conclusions from what was copied.

There is an opinion that in certain respects the J-20 is a more advanced aircraft than the F-22. The Black Eagle provides its pilot with much greater situational awareness of the tactical situation thanks to its electro-optical system, the sensors of which are distributed throughout the fuselage and provide a virtually XNUMX-degree view of the airspace. The Raptor does not have this, but we will add that information about detected targets is provided to the pilot after generalization with radar data.

Aerodynamics is not all that simple either. The Chinese fighter is much longer than the American one, by almost five meters. This affects the amount of payload, and although the planes have approximately the same takeoff weight (37-38 tons), the fuel supply in the internal tanks of the Chinese plane is almost twice as much as the Raptor. Two engines are not one, so the J-20 has a longer flight range than the F-22, but according to various sources, from 1000 to 2000 km. Not twice as much.


Five meters in length, according to American experts, is what gives the F-22 a big advantage in maneuverable combat. Plus the F-22's slight advantage in speed (about 300 km/h), this will also be in favor of the American in maneuverable combat. But the "Black Eagle" takes much more ammunition. Moreover, modern Chinese PL-15 missiles have a range of up to 300 km, while American AIM-120 - no more than 160 km.

Many may rightly note that it is still unknown how accurately Chinese missiles will fly and how far. Yes, there will be quite a lot of rational distrust in this, but: it is worth remembering that 100 years ago China was an agrarian backwater. 50 years ago, the whole world laughed good-naturedly at the Chinese weapons crafts. 25 years ago, there was no laughter, there were skeptical grins. And today China has nuclear weapons, builds aircraft carriers (and we no longer build them), creates 5th generation aircraft in simply terrifying quantities. We are silent about the Chinese auto industry. And this quantity will sooner or later turn into quality.

And what about the third ones? That is, us?


The Su-57 was the first aircraft in Russia developed using stealth technologies, and these technologies seem to work. Combat tests first in Syria and now in Ukraine have confirmed this. The Su-57 is equipped with the most effective digital flight control system and has super-maneuverability qualities due to a very successful combination of aerodynamic configuration and a power plant with all-aspect thrust vectoring.

The UHT of Russian aircraft is not subject to any criticism at all, because so far no one in the world has been able to create engines like those used by Russian aircraft designers.


And I think that further development of the Su-57 will go precisely along the engine line, because sooner or later, the AL-41F-1 will replace the AL-51F, that is, the very same "Product 30" that the A. Lyulka Design Bureau has been struggling with for so long. The aircraft will fly faster, and the payload will possibly increase.

The "Second Stage Engine" or AL-51F, the name is not as important as its essence - it is a promising improvement of the Su-57, which will make the Russian aircraft an even more dangerous opponent.

Many point to the frankly small batches of aircraft transferred to the Air Force, and this is true. However, it is worth looking at the question from this side: is it worth producing in large batches an aircraft that will soon have to be radically redesigned? Changing an engine is a very difficult moment, it is necessary to take into account and balance many factors. It would be quite frivolous to begin large-scale assembly of the Su-57 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in order to recall the aircraft and finish them later.

And, by the way, while the final stage of testing of the AL-51F (let's call it that) is underway, reconstruction and expansion of the plant complex is underway in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. I think it's clear to everyone why. The Superjet will definitely not be assembled in the new workshops.

In conclusion.


The monopolar world has somehow died out over the last 10 years. But a multipolar world has not yet emerged: there is a small group of states that other states are trying to put in their place. For now, through economic sanctions, but it is hard to say how it will go. BUT any cold war has every chance of becoming hot sooner or later.

Therefore, looking at everything that is happening, many countries in the world prefer to invest in the security of tomorrow - in their armed forces. Russia today is somewhat knocked out of the world arms market by those very sanctions, so the world is truly bipolar: one part buys its security by acquiring American and European weapons, the other trades with China. But everyone is increasing their military potential to the best of their ability.

Who knows how things will turn out tomorrow, but absolutely all countries in the world are trying to forge their shields and swords. Some by buying used fourth-generation aircraft, some by upgrading their third-generation aircraft, and some by creating new machines.

It is clear that all these "fives" are more of a show for the public and a demonstration of their own power. It is not for nothing that all the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan for the Americans were solved by F-15 and F/A-18, for Russia in Syria and Ukraine - Su-35 and Su-34, China on the border with Taiwan tenderly flies Su-30MKK... And where are the "fives"? Where are the F-22, J-20, Su-57?

And they are there, in the background. You could say, behind the backs of their cheaper and better-developed fourth-generation brothers. And this is the clearest indicator that the time for the "fives" has not yet come. Yes, that's how it turned out, for the F-22 it is, frankly speaking, already passing, and for the J-20 and Su-57 it really has not come yet. We won't even talk about all the other contenders, the Japanese have a chance to create something decent in the near future, and the Europeans will be able to come up with something very far away.

But in reality, this is not necessary. The fifth-generation fighter is still essentially the same object of admiration as a strategic bomber. There is no reason to use it, and it is expensive. But the fact is that the club of “fives” will expand over time. Aircraft carriers have been built.

But when the time comes for the “fives” to go into battle – I think it’s not a question of five years.
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  1. + 11
    3 October 2024 05: 49
    Is there a generally accepted criterion for a 5th generation aircraft? It seems that each country adjusts these criteria to the capabilities of the aircraft they have created.
    1. +4
      3 October 2024 09: 47
      There was no division into generations before the collapse of the USSR. It was simple - they launched it into production, and immediately began to design the next one taking into account the innovations and keeping an eye on the enemy. Just a jet, a jet with a swept wing, supersonic, a radar on board, missiles, then a small EPR. By the way, Roman was wrong not to mention the F-117. It was with it that our lag began and the Americans' search for a "golden mean" in a combination of conflicting requirements began, when they poked around like blind kittens on the way to the F-35. Now they have every chance of having the most massive fighter on the planet for 30 years to come. In vain they reproach the F-35 for its supersonic speed. Firstly, you can't fool aerodynamics - it really is a barrier. A huge jump in drag with huge fuel consumption. And the main thing is that near the ground, all our “super” and American ones don’t go more than 1300 km/h.
    2. +1
      3 October 2024 10: 08
      Is there a generally accepted criterion for a 5th generation aircraft?

      It exists! First you need to understand what modern war is. Most people on the site have no idea about it.
      Dear Roma, a modern army is not a set of weapons and their characteristics. And the one who has more of them and braver fighters is not the one who is stronger. Significant changes have occurred in the World and in Military Affairs, and the old rules that backward leaders constantly foist on us do not work. The basis of everything is information reconnaissance in real time at all levels and precision weapons, which are combined together. We do not have the first! And there are problems with the second at the tactical level... So there is nothing to combine, the question is how. The most primitive level of FPV. So they seized on it out of complete hopelessness... So such Roma tell you old tales...
      1. +4
        3 October 2024 13: 51
        First, you need to understand what modern warfare is. Most people on the site have no idea about it.

        You are becoming more and more like Gridasov. laughing
        Well, or gpt. belay

        All your comments are practically copy-pastas of themselves.
        I'm wondering what your specialty and education are.
        1. -4
          3 October 2024 18: 03
          Have you read them? Everything is written there. I am an expert in modern warfare...
          1. +2
            4 October 2024 08: 20
            Quote: Vitov
            I am an expert in modern warfare...

            And what regiments did you serve in? What fronts did you fight on, specialist?
        2. +1
          4 October 2024 20: 43
          All the experts on modern warfare work there, and do not write articles....and then the guys said, including those from Wagner, the war of 22 is different from the war of 24, so the tactics change. But I agree with the commander, especially in terms of the parquet generals, who are preparing for the last war with their thinking, and someone got their shoulder straps by mistake...
    3. -7
      3 October 2024 16: 03
      Yes, it does exist. And the Su57 doesn't quite measure up to it yet.
      1. +1
        4 October 2024 20: 44
        Rather, the F-35 is not up to par....Unless the F-35i, in principle it works well, unless it meets something like the Su-57...
  2. +9
    3 October 2024 06: 06
    Yes, the Americans failed to create a single universal fifth-generation aircraft
    There are no universal aircraft...
    1. +1
      3 October 2024 07: 24
      Quote: Luminman
      There are no universal aircraft...

      They taught the F-22 to bomb long ago and have already carried out numerous airstrikes with it.
      1. +3
        3 October 2024 15: 54
        Quote: BlackMokona
        They taught the F-22 to bomb a long time ago.

        When the vodka runs out, the snack becomes just food... (with)
    2. + 12
      3 October 2024 07: 59
      There are no universal aircraft...
      It happens. It does everything, but it does everything poorly, not comparable to a specialized device.
      1. +3
        3 October 2024 15: 52
        Quote: Aviator_
        It does everything, but it does everything poorly, it can't be compared to a specialized device.

        The answer is also correct... wink
  3. -3
    3 October 2024 06: 08
    And yet, aviation, even advanced, will not become a means of absolute dominance in the theater of military operations... much more is needed, especially when the enemy is strong and armed with what is needed.
  4. The comment was deleted.
    1. + 18
      3 October 2024 07: 29
      While these articles about the fifth generation strongly resemble the articles on VO about Elon Musk's spaghetti monster from 2017, there were a lot of them then, and everyone remembers how it ended. Apparently, someone should get it badly first, then the screams will start.
      1. +5
        3 October 2024 11: 34
        Elon Musk's monster from 2017, there were a lot of them then, everyone remembers how it ended
        Yeah, and remember the articles about how cool the Hephaestus system is and how flawed the JDAM of the "stupid" Americans is. Analysts from God, Vanga. The exact same result will be about the 5th generation.
        1. 0
          4 October 2024 08: 22
          Quote: spirit
          Yeah, and remember the articles about how cool the Hephaestus system is and how flawed the JDAM of the "stupid" Americans is

          Do not confuse warm with wet.
          1. 0
            4 October 2024 17: 07
            Nobody is confused, it's just that turbo patriots don't care what they throw caps for and put a glass down their collars with quacking and laughter about stupid Americans, a few years ago they licked Hephaestus and made fun of the destroyer Donald Cook
  5. UVB
    + 10
    3 October 2024 06: 24
    Yes, a single Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine can propel the F-35 to Mach 2.
    What 2M? His max is 1,2M
    1. + 13
      3 October 2024 07: 14
      Quote: UVB
      it has a maximum speed of 1,2M

      More precisely, 1,6M (1930 km/h for 35A)
      1. +2
        3 October 2024 10: 03
        Well, one of the requirements for the 5th generation is long supersonic speed without afterburner... Which is exactly what the penguin is not capable of...
        1. +3
          3 October 2024 10: 06
          Quote: paul3390
          One of the requirements for the 5th generation is long supersonic speed without afterburner.

          Not for "long-term", but for "cruising" supersonic speed without afterburner. And the 35th is technically (engine capabilities) capable of this, but other complications/jambs do not allow to indulge in maximum speeds once again...
          1. +1
            3 October 2024 10: 12
            As for the engine, it's a moot point, the mattress makers themselves admit it. It's not for nothing that they periodically try to do something with it, or even slap together a replacement.

            What is in the way there is no longer a difference. The main thing is that it is not capable of it. In general, sacrificing all other aircraft parameters for the sake of stealth seems like a very dubious idea. Moreover, it is provided in rather specific situations. How applicable all this is in real combat conditions - no one knows yet.
            1. +4
              3 October 2024 10: 30
              Quote: paul3390
              In general, sacrificing all other aircraft parameters for the sake of stealth seems like a very dubious idea.

              I agree, but in the fifth generation they decided to rely on stealth and advanced avionics, so that they could use these advantages to "checkmate" any opponent (at that time, the Soviet one, of course). If you think about it, there was some logic in this. After all, it was in special materials for reducing visibility and electronics that the Americans were ahead of the Soviet Union, which means it would have been stupid not to take advantage of this, especially since it was impossible to outperform the Soviet (and Russian, too) aviation in terms of performance characteristics of weapons (SAMs), maneuverability and speed...
        2. +1
          3 October 2024 11: 16
          Well, one of the requirements for the 5th generation is long supersonic speed without afterburner... Which is exactly what the penguin is not capable of...

          Why does it need long supersonic speed without afterburner? Everyone keeps repeating about the signs like a mantra! What is the 5th generation aircraft intended for and where do these signs come from?
          1. +2
            3 October 2024 13: 53
            Why does he need long supersonic speed without afterburners?

            Obviously for stealth and increased combat radius with the same fuel supply.
            What is the 5th generation aircraft intended for and where do these features come from?

            Obviously to replace the 4th generation fleet (read for sale). laughing
            Well, the features are adjusted to this. Useful features are taken that the 4th generation does not have. Their usefulness is inflated, after which an airplane is made that has them to some extent. It is called the fifth generation and sold instead of the fourth.
            1. +2
              3 October 2024 18: 13
              It doesn't work. Do you know what Combat Information Systems are? Well, a 5th generation aircraft is a universal BIS element. Without this system, a 5th generation aircraft does not exist. It turns into an aircraft with the features of a 5th generation aircraft.
  6. +5
    3 October 2024 06: 59
    The gradation of drones is becoming more relevant. Drones of the first generation, and maybe already the second. And so on, the race.
  7. + 12
    3 October 2024 07: 10
    Two engines are not one, so the J-20 has a greater range than the F-22

    So the F22 also has two engines...
    But the fact is that the club of "fives" will expand over time. Aircraft carriers have been built.

    At whose expense will it expand? At the expense of Turkey and India or something? wassat There will be no "expansion", moreover, the number of countries that could create a modern fighter will steadily decrease and by the middle of the century there will be no more than three...
    And who "built" the aircraft carriers there? The Chinese a couple, and the Indians spent sixteen years struggling to make theirs... and that's it. request
    1. +1
      3 October 2024 08: 54
      the number of countries that could create a modern fighter

      "To create" and "to possess" are far from the same thing.
      1. +2
        3 October 2024 09: 56
        Quote from solar
        To create" and "to possess" are far from the same thing.

        Of course, there are many times fewer creators.
  8. + 10
    3 October 2024 07: 10
    I didn't quite understand what the author was trying to convey in his article behind the many words, but it can be assumed that the AL-51F, despite the announcements, will not be this year, just as they were not announced in 2022. But it's okay, now in the comments they will explain that aviation is not so important today, it does not decide anything, it is more important to deal with drones. Friends, aviation does not decide where it is not in sufficient quantity and quality, so it does not become a means of dominance. But we all see from the example of partners how it could dominate.
    1. -1
      3 October 2024 19: 42
      Now there will be mantras about how partners have never fought an equal enemy
  9. +2
    3 October 2024 07: 15
    «
    The "second stage engine" or AL-51F, the name is not as important as its essence - it is a promising improvement of the Su-57, which will make the Russian aircraft an even more dangerous opponent.

    And what opponent? An air-to-air missile or a surface-to-air missile? And in general, what combat mission can the Su-57 perform that other weapons systems cannot?
    1. +3
      3 October 2024 13: 04
      As is known, an SUV with a more powerful engine can go deeper into impassable terrain and it will be more difficult to find a tractor there to pull it out onto the road than for a relatively less powerful one. Here, on the contrary: the improved Su-57 will be able to receive its missile a little later (the speed ratio will be, say, not 1/3, but 1/2,8), this can somewhat increase the crew's chances of rescue, give more time. And regarding combat missions, the question is not "can/cannot", but with what probability/speed/losses/expenses, etc., and is there an advantage in all this over existing systems. And here, practice really shows that aviation is quite replaceable with missiles/drones (hello, Nikita Sergeevich), and the only acceptable tactics for using aviation (launching the same missiles/drones from the maximum distance - i.e. it comes down to the manned aircraft performing the function of the "1st reusable stage" for guided weapons) makes the presence of the so-called "signs of the 5th generation" on the aircraft, if not meaningless, then clearly of little demand. If earlier the aircraft itself "got smarter", acquiring more advanced detection/guidance/EW systems, etc., now (thanks to miniaturization and availability of electronics) there is a "smartness race" of ammunition, while carrier platforms are fading into the background. Moreover, we should expect further complication/improvement of drones/UAVs/AMs, there is technical potential for this, but with manned vehicles of the front line, everything is not so simple. There is too much opposition, it is too sad to lose... They will, of course, take a long time to leave the stage, but the process, in my opinion, has begun.
      1. +2
        3 October 2024 13: 20
        Of course, the use of aviation increases the range of missiles and these are the most mobile systems for protecting the vast expanses of the country. Therefore, it may be better to develop patrol aviation with a large range of action both over land and sea. Rapid response weapons.
  10. +3
    3 October 2024 07: 25
    I respect Roman, he is a very talented and hard-working young man, he can take a break from the Unified State Exam and write an encyclopedic article of immense size for the Higher School of Economics.
    1. +5
      3 October 2024 09: 39
      I respect Roman, he is a very talented and hard-working young man, he can take his mind off things

      Most likely, the young man copies all the articles and news on a given topic, feeds it into a language model, like Gigachat, and it produces a ready-made article with a smooth and coherent, but generally meaningless text. How come I didn't guess it right away?!
  11. +2
    3 October 2024 07: 39
    I think there is no point in adapting to some standards, everyone has chosen their own set of parameters, for their own tactics of application. Everyone is strong in their own field, that is what they develop. This is simply the next generation, the development of technologies, no one will create something ideal anyway.
  12. +2
    3 October 2024 07: 45
    The time will come when the 4th generation fighters with all their advantages will have to be decommissioned, if not because of technical obsolescence, then because of physical obsolescence. And by that time, China and the US will already have a huge numerical advantage in new generation machines. Our construction per hour by teaspoon, no matter what Roman writes in justification of such a pace of construction, leaves nothing but a feeling of bitterness. Because we are building slowly not because of the need to replace the engine in the future, but because it is not possible to do it faster. And there is simply no one to do it, the shortage of personnel is catastrophic.
  13. +1
    3 October 2024 07: 54
    There is a concept - "gaining air superiority". Here, a technical advantage over the enemy is important - for example, stealth, gives such an advantage. Another advantage is automatic weapon control. In essence, the fifth generation is the ability to overcome air defense, although the term itself is more of a marketing one.

    NATO demonstrated what air superiority is in Yugoslavia and twice in Iraq. Israel has also demonstrated this advantage in its many wars with its neighbors. However, it has often achieved this advantage at the cost of great losses.

    If we had air superiority over Ukraine, the Dnieper would probably already be a LBS along its entire length.

    Unfortunately, our technical advantage is not sufficient, we are visible on radars and cannot suppress enemy air defenses to a sufficient degree.

    Therefore, there is no point in talking about technical advantage as if it were not a very necessary thing.
    1. -2
      3 October 2024 08: 19
      Unfortunately, our technical advantage is not sufficient, we are visible on radars and cannot suppress enemy air defenses to a sufficient degree.

      Wow, invisibility, that's the main difference, not

      The debate about what the fifth generation actually is is still ongoing. The distinctive features are somehow not all sorted out, and therefore include stealth, internal weapons bays, supercruise, that is, supersonic flight without afterburner, and super maneuverability.

      Although internal compartments and stealth are from the same opera. But supersonic flight and super maneuverability are not bad, but too expensive to provide.
      1. +3
        3 October 2024 09: 15
        The SVO has shown that super-maneuverability is far from the top of the priority list (it is not needed at all in the SVO, to be honest). But stealth plays a key role.
        1. +1
          3 October 2024 09: 20
          The SVO has shown that super-maneuverability is far from the top of the priority list

          So I wrote about it and got some minuses from fans of the all-angle engine and beautiful pictures with fog on the wings.
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 13: 58
            beautiful pictures with fog on the wings

            Beautiful pictures of fog have nothing to do with super-maneuverability.
            That's probably why they got the minuses.
            1. 0
              3 October 2024 14: 03
              That's probably why they got the minuses

              Let them admire it, but I didn’t mean the Prandtl effect, did I?
        2. 0
          3 October 2024 14: 08
          But stealth plays a key role.

          You are VERY narrow minded. Try to think broader.

          Suppose 404 had not received the support of NATO AWACS and satellite intelligence. What role would stealth play then? Hint: none.

          Let's assume 404 was located on an island and the opposing side could only use aircraft from aircraft carriers. Accordingly, 404's air defense was weak, but its anti-ship defense was WOW. Then what role would stealth play? The answer is none.

          Let's assume that the war is not with Banderovites but with ISIS. Then what role would low visibility play? The answer is none.

          What I mean is that the choice of optimal parameters depends on the enemy and the theater of operations.
          This is a truism. And generations are a statement of the fact that they managed to somehow squeeze in the unsqueezable and create a balanced aircraft at a new level in all parameters.
          That's why the F-22 is the fifth generation, and the F-35 is not so sure.
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 20: 04
            We have what we have without any "if onlys".
            There is no talk at all about generations and their numbering. The talk is about our emphasis on "super maneuverability" and their emphasis on "low visibility". In the current reality, without any "if grandma had had ...", it is obvious to the naked eye that low visibility is needed by everyone, and super maneuverability is not in demand at all.
      2. -1
        3 October 2024 09: 54

        Wow, invisibility, that's the main difference, not


        Invisibility is one of the parameters of "impunity", that is, the ability to act without encountering resistance. Maneuverability is aimed at the same thing, but it is less effective, which is obvious.

        Notice before you are noticed and use weapons at a distance where the enemy cannot do so.

        IMHO, these "generations" were invented to simplify the idea of ​​who can do what. That is, roughly, a 5th generation aircraft will most likely destroy 4th generation enemy aircraft without losses and will not be affected by 4th generation air defense.

        Therefore, one should not be too frivolous about technical progress; lagging behind is fraught with unnecessary losses, at the very least.
    2. 0
      3 October 2024 08: 26
      Due to the development of automation, computing resources of air defense, gaining air superiority is becoming increasingly difficult. For fighters, the scope of application is narrowing more and more, only outside the range of enemy air defense. Long-range air-to-air missiles are a temporary solution, but by exaggeration, they can be launched from an airship.
      Unlike attack aircraft and bombers, which UMPK gave a second youth. To the existing missile weapons.
      1. 0
        3 October 2024 08: 57
        For fighters, the scope of application is becoming increasingly narrow, only outside the range of enemy air defense.

        This is in case they were unable to suppress the enemy's air defense. And if they were able to, then it does not narrow.
        1. 0
          3 October 2024 09: 29
          This is in case they couldn't suppress the enemy's air defense. And if they could, then it doesn't narrow.

          Now it is more relevant to create UAV fighters that provide cover for ground forces and short-range ships, i.e. the same drones, only sharpened as fighters
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 10: 16
            Until a single UAV fighter has been created, it is impossible to say with certainty that this is possible in the foreseeable future. Attack aircraft will undoubtedly develop, but fighters are still a question mark.
            1. -2
              3 October 2024 10: 20
              Not a single UAV fighter has been created yet,

              You didn't understand me, I wrote about drones-fighters of other drones, this is more relevant at the moment. And manned fighters in their current form can be easily replaced by SAMs.
              1. 0
                3 October 2024 11: 32
                And manned fighters in their current form can easily be replaced by air defense missile systems.

                Fighters ensure the concentration of forces in an area, unlike ground-based air defense.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  14. -1
    3 October 2024 08: 00
    And the article talks about the fact that it doesn't matter whether a 5th generation fighter will work out or not. The main thing is that the country developing and producing it shows its design and industrial potential. Hence the emergence of countries striving to create such a somewhat "mythical" aircraft.
    1. 0
      3 October 2024 08: 34
      All these fifth-generation "wonder weapons" were not used against echeloned modern air defense. Only Russian Su-57s were allegedly used in Ukraine, but there is no reliable information on how far they went and what their effectiveness was. Apparently, manned aviation is living out its last days and no one needs the "fifth generation" anymore.
      The future belongs to AI-powered drones.
      1. -1
        3 October 2024 08: 39
        It is clear that if a global government does not appear, then robots will fight. But this is in the future. But even then, we cannot do without heavy weapons. Therefore, the owner of such weapons will dominate. And for this, appropriate developments are needed
      2. +4
        3 October 2024 09: 01
        All these fifth-generation "wonder weapons" were not used against modern echeloned air defense systems.

        They are used in Syria. The Syrian air defense treats them with disdain - doesn't notice them.:))
  15. +1
    3 October 2024 08: 57
    About nothing, and IMHO, are they trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
    IMHO, any reader understands why the military and civilians are pushing new generations of UAVs, tanks, cars, aircraft, ships, missiles, smartphones...

    Well, in fighters it has been discussed more than once: the F35 sees a tank at 40 km, an aircraft at 400 km (conditionally), and it is seen at 150 km
  16. -3
    3 October 2024 09: 47
    Quote: Amateur
    Is there a generally accepted criterion for a 5th generation aircraft?


    No. Supposedly the Yankees developed these criteria, for themselves, of course.
    But there is one key indicator: supersonic cruising speed, that is, the ability to fly almost constantly at supersonic speed without using afterburner. And, by the way, the F-35 does not meet this parameter.
    Well, and the notorious stealth. Everything else (avionics, for example) is a matter of time and can be changed during subsequent modernization.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  17. -4
    3 October 2024 09: 50
    Quote: Neo-9947
    The SVO showed that super-maneuverability is far from the top of the priority list. But stealth plays a key role.


    Where is the proof? Super maneuverability, with due pilot experience, allows to escape from a missile attack.
    Or are you a combat pilot yourself and are you basing this on your personal combat experience? laughing

    Do you know what "dynamic stealth" is? Radars use the Doppler principle and do not notice aircraft with a speed below the threshold. Super maneuverability with OVT allows you to fly in this mode.
    1. +1
      3 October 2024 10: 20
      Super maneuverability, with the proper pilot experience, allows one to evade a missile attack.

      From one missile. And when launched in pairs, it increases the probability of the second one hitting.
      Radars use the Doppler principle and do not detect aircraft with a speed below the threshold.

      AFAR operate in different modes, this is not relevant for them.
      1. 0
        3 October 2024 14: 44
        Well, they are working on introducing short-range all-aspect missiles on the aircraft. For the aircraft's self-defense against air-to-air missiles.
        If this can be realized, then super-maneuverability makes sense as the last line of defense against a missile that has broken through the anti-missiles.
        1. +1
          3 October 2024 21: 41
          If this can be realized, then super maneuverability...

          will be even more unnecessary.
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 22: 36
            But here no one can guess which way the evolution of the confrontation in the air will turn.
            1. +2
              3 October 2024 22: 39
              There is no turning point where super maneuverability would be useful in a real fight.
              It was needed while they were conducting purely visual at low speeds. But no one has been conducting it for a long time.
              1. 0
                3 October 2024 22: 55
                Well, who knows what will happen next?
                It is clear that electronics and AI are much faster than the pilot and will be able to react much faster. But the executive bodies are already slower. And the higher the speed of the interceptor missile, the more difficult it is for it to turn towards the maneuvering target.
                So it is impossible to say now what will be useful and what will not.
      2. 0
        3 October 2024 22: 52
        Quote from solar
        From one missile. And when launched in pairs, it increases the probability of the second one hitting.

        So, we shouldn't maneuver at all? Amazing stupidity.
        Quote from solar
        AFAR operate in different modes,

        They work, but the AFAR does not see the air target at all in different modes.
        Quote from solar
        , it is not relevant for them.

        Since the air target is not visible, it is not relevant...
        1. +1
          3 October 2024 23: 12
          So, we shouldn't maneuver at all? Amazing stupidity.

          It is astonishingly stupid to deliberately lose energy during a fight and then become a target. A pilot in a fight will not do this.
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 23: 23
            Quote from solar
            It's incredibly stupid to lose energy during a fight and then become a target. A pilot won't do that in a fight.

            You have problems with knowledge of the material in the area under discussion.

            Typical air combat maneuvers with energy loss are memorized by pilots from all over the world like ABC:
            - hard turn - a defensive maneuver. It is also one of the anti-missile maneuvers.
            - barrel roll (high-g barrel roll) - a defensive maneuver for counterattack. It is also one of the anti-missile maneuvers.
            1. +1
              3 October 2024 23: 28
              This is your problem. The plane's energy is conserved precisely for these maneuvers. And to hang in the air for some time, having lost energy, is to become a target for the second missile in a paired launch.
              1. 0
                3 October 2024 23: 36
                Quote from solar
                It's you who has problems.

                No, you do. Because:
                Quote from solar
                It is precisely for performing these maneuvers that the aircraft's energy is conserved.

                These are energy-wasting maneuvers. During these maneuvers, the aircraft loses energy.
                Quote from solar
                And to hang in the air for some time, having lost energy, means becoming a target for the second missile in a paired launch.

                And this is done when there is no energy for anything else after performing forced maneuvers to evade missiles. The aircraft hanging in the air is invisible to the radar (ARGSN) against the background of the earth. You can also add the shooting of dipole reflectors. For the IR homing head, IR traps are shot off, which will cover the entire image.
    2. -2
      3 October 2024 19: 47
      Does it allow you to fly for a long time? I remember thirty years ago the press wrote that the bell allows you to disrupt the detection of an aircraft - the pulse-Doppler radar loses a stationary target for a couple of seconds.
      1. +1
        3 October 2024 22: 40
        By this logic, it is impossible to shoot down a helicopter. But they do.
        1. -1
          3 October 2024 22: 54
          Quote from solar
          By this logic, it is impossible to shoot down a helicopter. But they do.

          You have problems with knowledge of the material.
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 22: 58
            I'm okay with that.
            1. 0
              3 October 2024 23: 03
              Quote from solar
              I'm okay with that.

              Well, if you have all the necessary knowledge of the material, then point out the rotating rotor on the plane.
              1. +1
                3 October 2024 23: 30
                Do you think they are all metal?
                1. -1
                  3 October 2024 23: 37
                  Quote from solar
                  Do you think they are all metal?

                  It doesn't matter at all. That's why Comanche "died".
                  1. +1
                    3 October 2024 23: 42
                    Comanche was closed because there was active progress in UAVs. And as it turned out later, they did the right thing, although it was not obvious at the time.
                    1. 0
                      7 October 2024 01: 11
                      Quote from solar
                      Comanche was closed because there was active progress in UAVs.

                      There is such an opinion on the Internet, and even with a link to specialists known in narrow circles. But if the matter was in the active progress of UAVs, then an unmanned Comanche would have appeared. But there is no Comanche in any form, not at all. Despite the development of UAVs, manned helicopters have remained and are developing, but the Comanche has disappeared. The matter is not in the development of UAVs. In the development of radars and IR (thermal imaging) systems.
      2. 0
        3 October 2024 22: 53
        Quote from Sumotori_380
        Does it allow you to fly for a long time? I remember thirty years ago the press wrote that the bell allows you to disrupt the detection of an aircraft - the pulse-Doppler radar loses a stationary target for a couple of seconds.

        True. And if you add chaff reflectors, the attacker's radar won't understand anything at all.
    3. 0
      3 October 2024 22: 41
      Here is what they wrote in smart books back in 2002: "...If during the target maneuver, derivatives of the tracked phase coordinates arise, the order of which exceeds the filter dimension (the order of astatism), then this inevitably leads to an increase in dynamic tracking errors, in which case the failure of tracking is only a matter of time. The targeted use of special maneuvers ... becomes especially relevant in connection with the adoption of super-maneuverable aircraft into service by advanced countries.
      ...
      Since the missiles use measuring devices with astaticity not exceeding the second order, it is sufficient to carry out a maneuver during which derivatives of range, speed, and onboard bearings of the third order appear."
      that is, the failure of tracking during such maneuvers occurs not because of Doppler, but because of a violation of the algorithm in the on-board computer. How things are with the on-board computer of missiles now - I don't know...
      1. 0
        3 October 2024 23: 02
        Quote: Calm_type
        then this inevitably leads to an increase in dynamic tracking errors, in which case the failure of tracking is only a matter of time

        With any maneuver of the target, third derivatives of coordinates arise, but maneuvering targets are also hit.
        Quote: Calm_type
        that is, the failure of tracking during such maneuvers occurs not because of Doppler, but because of a violation of the algorithm in the on-board computer. How things are with the on-board computer of missiles now - I don't know...

        And there is such a parameter - the maximum overload of the target being hit. This is exactly about it, about astatism...
      2. 0
        3 October 2024 23: 20
        Astatism above the second order is practically not used - sensitivity to high-frequency interference increases greatly.
        it is sufficient to carry out a maneuver, during the execution of which derivatives of range, speed and third-order side bearings appear."

        It looked good on paper. The rocket's overload capacity is greater than that of an airplane.
        1. 0
          7 October 2024 01: 14
          Quote from solar
          It looked good on paper. The rocket's overload capacity is greater than that of an airplane.

          It is strange that you wrote this. The available overloads have nothing to do with astaticism. The results of astaticism cannot be eliminated by overloads.
  18. +1
    3 October 2024 10: 12
    Thanks for the interesting article.
    If only there was less ideology when discussing purely technical issues. Politicizing the arithmetic operation 2x2 is somehow funny.
  19. +1
    3 October 2024 10: 14
    It is clear that all these "fives" are more of a show for the public and a demonstration of their own power. It is not for nothing that all the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan for the Americans were solved by F-15 and F/A-18, for Russia in Syria and Ukraine - Su-35 and Su-35, China on the border with Taiwan tenderly flies Su-30MKK... And where are the "fives"? Where are the F-22, J-20, Su-57?

    Somehow it is not clear that there is a solution to suppress Ukrainian air defense. The Americans really solved this problem in Iraq without the fifth generation. But where is the Su-57, when they cannot solve the task for which it was created? The engine problem has nothing to do with it in this case.
    1. 0
      7 October 2024 01: 15
      Quote from solar
      It's not really clear that there is a solution to suppressing Ukrainian air defense. The Americans really did solve this problem in Iraq.

      The SA-75 is also not very visible in Ukraine...
  20. -2
    3 October 2024 11: 38
    Actually, from what time should we count the generations of airplanes? Now we simply count time from the Nativity of Christ. And airplanes are correctly counted from the flights of the Wright brothers, or in Russia from Mozhaisky, just as we believe that Popov invented radio.
    If from the Wright brothers, then fifteen generations have already passed, if not twenty. And by what criteria, for example, to count the next generation. Or, for example, from what year to count the independence of Russia since 1991 or as I believe that Russia has always been independent. soldier
  21. +1
    3 October 2024 11: 53
    There is a small typo in the article - the F22 and J20 have two engines
  22. 0
    3 October 2024 12: 16
    hang a container with missiles under the wing and get an internal fuselage... was that even possible?..
    1. 0
      3 October 2024 13: 07
      It's called a conformal weapons bay.
  23. -5
    3 October 2024 12: 26
    All the technical prerequisites for a fifth-generation aircraft are already in place. The presence of a fifth-generation aircraft is evidence, first of all, of the competence of the country's leadership: it can set a task, it can organize work, it can provide resources, it can protect against extortionists in uniform... The Americans are still mired in corruption and embezzlement, and do not consider it necessary to rush with new technology. We can make such a machine if the design bureau and the plant work in Stalin's style, in six months.
    .
    The fifth-generation fighter itself is not a universal, all-powerful soldier that suppresses everything around it, but a supersonic vertical takeoff drone that can deliver 10-15 tons of bombs, missiles, drones, communications and surveillance equipment, electronic warfare or radar in the shortest possible time to the desired point and leave it there. It takes off on command from the AWACS. It flies to the launch point and back!
    Excessive onboard equipment, as well as excessive versatility and power, are not needed and in vain increase the cost of the aircraft, but what can be installed - should be installed. STEALTH - technologies are not needed for a cheap drone.
    .
    If it weren’t for the vertical takeoff, then for the time being we could limit ourselves to converting it into a MIG-31 drone.
  24. +1
    3 October 2024 12: 42
    It would be quite reckless to begin large-scale assembly of the Su-57 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur only to recall the aircraft and finish them later.


    It is quite frivolous to produce two main fighters, the Su-35 and Su-57, at one plant in Komsomolsk.
    The Irkutsk aircraft plant should have been involved in the serial production of the Su-35 long ago and, starting in 20, should have supplied the VKS with at least one combat regiment consisting of 24 Su-35s (12 units in Irkutsk + 12 units in Komsomolsk) every year in order to bring their number in the VKS to 240-300 units (10-12 combat regiments).

    The Su-30SM fighters currently in service with the Aerospace Forces, after modernization, should be transferred to the naval aviation and 6 naval aviation regiments should be formed on their basis, two regiments each for the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet, and one regiment each for the Black Sea Fleet and Baltic Fleet.
  25. +4
    3 October 2024 13: 15
    When talking about the 5th generation, many forget the main and primary sign of belonging.
    The 5th generation is a SYSTEM. Not just an aircraft with some specific capabilities.
    This is online satellite reconnaissance. This is AWACS. These are unmanned vehicles, both reconnaissance and strike. This is broadband communication at any point for data exchange. This is a weapon that is maximally suitable for its tasks.
    So far, no one except F 22 has something like this. And to be honest, it doesn't have it to the fullest extent.
    Without all of the above, these are simply more expensive aircraft with slightly greater capabilities.
    They will not give a decisive advantage. While a fully operational system will be able to dramatically increase the capabilities.
    LA is half the battle.
  26. +1
    3 October 2024 13: 27

    Author: Roman Skomorokhov


    This brand is already on VO. I've been avoiding his articles for about a year and a half, I'll read it to refresh my memory :)
  27. +1
    3 October 2024 13: 45
    Quote: V.
    Actually, from what time should we count the generations of aircraft?


    From first generation jet fighters.
  28. -1
    3 October 2024 13: 46
    Quote from solar
    From one missile. And when launched in pairs, it increases the probability of the second one hitting.


    Based on practical experience of computer games, right? laughing
    1. -2
      3 October 2024 19: 49
      And is your point of view more substantiated?
    2. -1
      3 October 2024 22: 14
      No. Based on knowledge of aerodynamics.
  29. DO
    +2
    3 October 2024 15: 07
    Many point to the frankly small batches of aircraft transferred to the Air Force, and this is true. However, it is worth looking at the question from this side: is it worth producing in large batches an aircraft that will soon have to be radically redesigned? Changing the engine is a very difficult moment ...

    Strange logic. Because technologies do not stand still. The development of more efficient solutions, in this case more powerful engines, in a living military-industrial complex is the norm of its existence. If we reason like this, then serial production will never happen at all, in the endless expectation of future perfection.
  30. 0
    3 October 2024 16: 05
    Only a real battle can show how much better a 5th generation aircraft is than a 4+++++.
    As for small-scale Su, there is a lot of work to do.
  31. -3
    3 October 2024 16: 09
    And while people are debating whether the Su57 and J20 are completely 5th generation, the US is already working hard on the 6th. I think they will show it to us in 3-5 years
    1. 0
      4 October 2024 12: 27
      They won't show it. There's a ton of money for development, why rush? 2030 or later. Probably later.
  32. +3
    3 October 2024 17: 36
    Let's correct the author, the Su-57, then still T-50, flew in 2010, not 2020. By 2020, there were already about a dozen aircraft and they were flying with all their might, including collectively. The F-35 cannot fly at 2 Mach. Even if you stick a powder accelerator in its back. Maximum 1,6. It is always important to learn the material!
    1. 0
      16 October 2024 05: 32
      So what? Why did you decide that 1.6 is worse than 2? The MiG31 flies 3. But their time has passed 35 years ago. They don't build new ones like that anymore.
      I think what's more important is what the aircraft can do specifically. Here's the automatic transmission of all information about air combat to the control center, a single information space, distribution of targets in real time between different participants on the battlefield - that's what needs to be worked on.
  33. 0
    3 October 2024 19: 38
    What happened to the unipolar world?
  34. 0
    4 October 2024 13: 36
    Quote from solar
    AFAR operate in different modes, this is not relevant for them.


    But for the homing head of missiles with radar guidance, it is quite relevant.
    The danger to the aircraft comes from the missile, not from the platform from which it was launched.
    1. 0
      7 October 2024 01: 18
      Quote: Illanatol
      Quote from solar

      AFAR operate in different modes, this is not relevant for them.

      But for the homing head of missiles with radar guidance, it is quite relevant.

      solar wrote nonsense.
  35. 0
    4 October 2024 13: 39
    Quote from solar
    It looked good on paper. The rocket's overload capacity is greater than that of an airplane.


    It is not the overload capacity that matters, but the turning radius. The plane is able to change its trajectory faster precisely because of the laws of aerodynamics.
    1. 0
      5 October 2024 11: 10
      If the turn is performed at low speed, it will not save you at all
    2. 0
      7 October 2024 01: 19
      Quote: Illanatol
      What matters is not the overload capacity, but the turning radius.

      The angular velocity and angular acceleration of the missile-target line of sight are important.
  36. 0
    4 October 2024 13: 42
    Quote: garri-lin
    The 5th generation is a SYSTEM. Not just an aircraft with some specific capabilities.
    This is online satellite reconnaissance. This is AWACS. These are unmanned vehicles, both reconnaissance and strike.


    The system you described works perfectly well with 4th generation aircraft. So, no, this is not an indicator of the 5th generation.
    1. 0
      4 October 2024 21: 15
      Anatol, the 5th generation system is completely different.
  37. +1
    4 October 2024 18: 01
    China came second, with the J-20 flying in 2017.
    +++++++++++

    Skomorokhov was simply created to tell jokes ))))

    What's the point of reading this?
  38. 0
    4 October 2024 19: 22
    I think I read that they are already going to write off the F22, and even now they fly close to their bases due to reliability issues.
  39. 0
    6 October 2024 15: 52
    MWM: Six radars and a laser – the Su-57 has no equal in its capabilities
    https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2024/10/06/mwm-shest-radarov-i-lazer-po-svoim-vozmozhnostyam-su-57-ne-imeet-sebe-ravnyh