6,8mm vs Russian and Chinese body armor

134
6,8mm vs Russian and Chinese body armor

Surprisingly, according to American experts, the army universally admits that the current 5,56-millimeter bullet cannot penetrate Russian body armor, and the latest Russian small arms weapon easily surpasses it in firing range.

Here, of course, it is time to wonder where American bulletproof vests could have encountered the latest Russian small arms (it is clear that only in Ukraine), the whole question is what the US considers the latest weapons. But since no weapon brands were named in any article, we will leave it to the conscience of the Americans: the latest is the latest.



In the red-brick building of New Jersey's Picatinny Arsenal, two new weapons hang on the wall at one end of a conference room. One is the XM7, the new service rifle the U.S. Army plans to equip its soldiers with, replacing the standard M4 carbine. The other is the XM250, which we call a light machine gun.


Both of these models will fire a new type of cartridge with 6,8 mm bullets. So, in fact, we can say that the era of M4 and 5,56 mm bullets is coming to an end.

“The last time we had a service rifle was in 1967, when we went from the M14 to the M16,” said Col. Jason Bohannon, who leads the Army’s Next General Squad Weapons program, which was created in 2017 specifically to replace the M4 carbine. “I think it’s historical period for the army."


Indeed, such a thing as changing the small arms caliber is a truly epochal event for the army, and the larger the army, the cooler the event. It is one thing to rearm a misunderstanding in the form of an army like any of the Baltic countries, and another when we are talking about armies like the Russian or American. This is a truly complex process.

To understand why the U.S. Army is making this crucial change — it plans to arm some 100 soldiers with a new rifle that the 000st Airborne Division is currently testing at Fort Campbell, Ky. — it's worth starting with the ammunition the Army's current M101 weapon uses, and the M4 used before it, dating back to the 16s and the Vietnam War: the 1960-millimeter bullet.

Bohannon:
"There were some concerns about whether the round was effective enough. There were lessons learned from combat, from all the years we spent fighting the global war on terrorism. Ultimately, I think we've just hit a plateau with the effectiveness of the 5,56mm."


In recent years, part of the concern about the 5,56mm bullet has been what happens when a bullet of that caliber hits a person on the battlefield wearing body armor.

Back in 2017, Lt. Gen. Mick Bednarek, now retired due to age, testified on the issue before a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on small arms. He noted that the U.S. was facing battlefield adversaries that were “approaching levels two and three of body armor that eliminate the lethality we once dominated on the infantry battlefield, regardless of range.”

Bednarek added that because of this new level of defense, "our ability to engage these targets at medium or long ranges is almost exhausted, so we have to have small arms systems that can stop and penetrate these advanced enemy defenses."

Major General Robert Scales supported this thesis at the same hearing:
"I think everyone in the army understands that a 5,56mm bullet cannot penetrate the new Russian bulletproof vests, and in terms of firing range it is easily inferior to the latest Russian small arms. Senior leaders in the ground services are currently calling for the use of a medium-caliber bullet (something larger than 5,56mm and smaller than 12,7mm. One option is 7-62mm - ed.).


Just over a week later, at another Senate Armed Services Committee hearing in 2017, Gen. J. Mark Milley echoed Bednarek and Scales' comments.

"The 5,56mm round - we recognize that there are types of body armor that it doesn't penetrate. We have those vests, too, but ... the warring states are actually selling theirs online for about $250."


The medium-caliber bullet that Scales mentioned back in 2017 is now the 6,8mm round that the XM7 and XM250 will fire, a caliber the military hopes is a cross between the 5,56mm Goldilocks round and the larger 7,62mm NATO rounds fired from weapons like the M240 machine gun or the M14 Army rifle that preceded the M16.

But experts say body armor is only one part of the equation when it comes to figuring out which bullet size is most effective at doing its deadly job on the battlefield. When firing 5,56mm bullets from a carbine like the M4, the big issue is range. The round is lightweight and has a fairly high velocity, but it’s not as effective at longer ranges, with the sweet spot being between 300 and 400 meters.


A soldier fires an XM250 machine gun at the U.S. Army Test Center in Fort Greely, Alaska.

The XM250 will eventually replace the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon under a contract signed with firearms manufacturer Sig Sauer.

None of this means that the 5,56mm bullet isn't very effective. It's a deadly projectile, and it does quite a bit of damage to the human body when it hits it. Depending on the design of the bullet, it tends to spin around inside the soft tissue, causing significant damage to organs inside the human body.

Nicholas Drummond, a military commentator and land warfare expert, agrees with the view of the 5,56mm cartridge's problems.

“The 5,56mm round is really at the limit of what it takes to incapacitate a human target. It has always been controversial, though. It’s based on the fact that the bullet tumbles when it hits a medium denser than air. In Afghanistan, for example, one of the problems was that the 5,56mm rounds fired from the M4 didn’t always penetrate car windshields, which was a concern if a soldier thought the vehicle might be a threat and fired at it.”


It is worth noting here that the 5,45 mm bullets were not particularly penetrating either. Here are some pictures from the author's personal archive, dating back to the summer of 2014. Donetsk, DPR.






The SUV, as you can see, is from the then very famous Dnepr-1 battalion. They picked at it from different types of small arms, but the chips on the windshield are AKS-74U and just AKS-74. And the through holes are the work of SKS. That is, in principle, for 10 years now, as we can theoretically know, the 5,45x39 cartridge is no better than the 5,56x45 cartridge, and will even be weaker.

In other words, a bullet's ability to penetrate body armor—or not—is just one of the issues any military considers when moving to a new caliber and new rifles.

In general, you shouldn't focus only on body armor. There are targets on the battlefield other than people that are accessible to small arms.

Will the new weapon with more powerful bullets be able to cope with them? Of course. The cartridges in the new weapon are not only larger, but also have a higher muzzle velocity. In general, a larger caliber projectile, as a rule, works better at long distances and hits targets more effectively at long distances. And, accordingly, a larger caliber bullet will have a greater destructive power. And here it will no longer be so important whether the opponents will wear body armor or not. The bullet must be effective in all aspects.

And, of course, it must be taken into account that the greater the firing range, the more difficult it is for any projectile to penetrate serious armor. This competition has been going on for quite some time. And from time to time, either the projectile or the armor breaks ahead in this competition.

But the new rifle has a physical cost: the XM7 is heavier than the M4 it replaces. That may not sit well with some of those who have to carry it. And naturally, a larger caliber round will have more recoil. And if a carbine, or shortened, version of the rifle appears (like the M4 versus the M16), that will further increase the recoil.


It's important to remember that the debate over the best caliber bullet for the job is not new. There was a long, long debate in the military about large caliber versus small caliber, yes, that involved 7,62mm versus 5,56mm versus 7,62, and it was a very heated debate.

The 5,56mm caliber won as a lighter weapon with less recoil. Many in the US Army preferred this weapon because they found it more convenient. It was believed that the 5,56mm caliber rifle was easier to shoot and hit targets, and the ammunition load in pieces was greater than that of the 7,62mm caliber.

But then Kevlar bulletproof vests arrived and everything went out of its usual orbit.

Yes, the new 6,8mm ammo is somewhere in between those two sizes. Maybe the 6,8mm is a good compromise, but it's impossible to know even after some extensive testing.

The combat value of new types of weapons can only be proven by their use in real combat operations. Combat weapons, unlike ceremonial and parade weapons, are tested in combat. Tests, checks, improvements - all this is a preparatory period. And only combat use can show the usefulness and effectiveness of a particular type of small arms, regardless of what class of body armor the enemy is wearing.
134 comments
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  1. +2
    2 October 2024 05: 02
    Good question!
    But where are any comparisons?
    What are some conclusions?
    1. +2
      2 October 2024 08: 33
      More about the NGSW program in an adult way here:

      https://сватеев-ва.рф/ngsw.html
    2. -2
      2 October 2024 15: 17
      We use them in body armor and assault suits
      9mm thick silicon carbide armor plates - protection class Br-6
      This is protection against 12,7mm and 14,5mm bullets.
      on the way to the Centurion armor tiles: triangles, squares, polyhedrons
      made of boron carbide, also class Br-6, but the thickness is already 2 times less than 5 mm
      and the weight is 2 times less due to the material itself
      and 2 times less due to the smaller thickness
      4 times weight gain with the same protective properties
      By the way, boron carbide crumbles much less when hit by bullets, so you don't have to use aramid covers
      1. +4
        2 October 2024 21: 45
        Quote: Romario_Argo
        We use them in body armor and assault suits
        9mm thick silicon carbide armor plates - protection class Br-6
        This is protection against 12,7mm and 14,5mm bullets.

        Protection from 14.5 mm? Is that true? And does this tile also withstand uranium BOPS? wassat

        in the new version of GOST R 50744-95:
        Class Br 6 provides protection against bullets with a heat-strengthened steel core of 12,7 mm large-caliber sniper rifles OSV-96 and V-94 (12,7x108 mm cartridge with armor-piercing incendiary bullet B-32, index 57-BZ-542). It is difficult to say whether products that meet these high requirements will be able to appear on the market of personal armor protection in the foreseeable future. Let us just say that, according to our information, such requirements have never been put forward in technical specifications for the development and modernization of personal armor protection for servicemen of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.


        Class Br 5 combined classes 6 and 6a of the protective structure of the previous version of the standard and provides protection against damage from bullets of the SVD sniper rifle with a steel heat-strengthened core (7N13 and 7-BZ-3 cartridges).
        1. +3
          3 October 2024 01: 48
          Of course it holds, both 23 mm and 30 mm. It holds everything, it's just a pity the tile wearer won't know about it.
    3. -3
      2 October 2024 16: 38
      It is not the millimeters of the caliber of the bullets that need to be compared, but the cartridges themselves. And here we see that 5,56*45 and 5,45*39 are simply incommensurate in power. For example, even 9*18 Makarov and 9*19 Parabellum are already different classes, requiring a corresponding weapon design (free breech or locking). And, undoubtedly, American gunpowder is better than Russian.
      1. +1
        4 October 2024 18: 06
        Incommensurable?!? Are you not confusing something?!? The amount of gunpowder is practically the same. And the weight can be neutralized by the burning rate. Does the 9mm Parabellum need a locking bolt?!?!? Are gunsmiths even aware of all these revelations?!?
  2. +15
    2 October 2024 05: 29
    I am an ardent supporter of the notorious Grendel. I had to shoot with this cartridge, the sensations are quite comfortable. The trajectory is flat, you can shoot at long distances. Of course, we did not test it for penetration, but judging by the reports, it is noticeably higher than that of a low-pulse cartridge. And a native 6.5x7.62 case re-crimped to 39 will provide a much less painful transition to it. In fact, the same AK family can be easily re-barreled, even AKM magazines will fit. And if you finally work on the quality of the cartridges, it will be a fairy tale ...
    1. IVZ
      -1
      2 October 2024 06: 37
      I am an ardent supporter of the notorious Grendel.
      I thought the same as you. I even wrote an article once. https://topwar.ru/195340-ak-12-kak-zerkalo-status-quo-chast-3analiz-situacii.html But now it seems to me that the pretzel is a half measure and if we keep in mind the prospects for the development of the SIB, then we should take .243 as a base or, which I think will be better despite the worse heap of automatic fire, 6,5 Creed
      1. 0
        2 October 2024 06: 42
        I agree - .243 is indeed more promising with a long-range sight. But you understand - there is no money to switch to it now... Especially as a replacement cartridge for personal weapons. It could be considered as, say, an alternative to the Mosin cartridge - but then you also think, maybe then immediately to .338? So as not to get up twice?
        1. IVZ
          0
          2 October 2024 06: 48
          But you understand - there is not enough money to switch to it now...
          A half measure may, after a short period of time, require further investments, and, unfortunately, not only financial ones. And such a mess will begin with logistics. Better once and for a long time.
          1. +1
            2 October 2024 06: 53
            Are you sure that we have enough not so much money, but also production and ammunition capacities for such a radical step? To replace the main cartridge with a completely different one? Somehow I doubt it.. This turned out to be oh so difficult even for the mighty USSR, and even more so for today's RF...
            1. IVZ
              0
              2 October 2024 07: 10
              Are you sure that we have enough money for even more than that...
              Are you sure that we won't have enough resources? What's the point of guessing? I'm sure that a new cartridge is needed and has been needed for a long time. It's like a tank. And to think for everyone... even the President of the Russian Federation can hardly do that.
            2. -3
              2 October 2024 07: 24
              There is more than enough for bridges, parades and other show-offs, and there is enough for that, if there is a desire!
        2. -1
          3 October 2024 01: 52
          Excuse me, but is the durability of the 243 barrel not taken into account? I just imagined a PKM 243 caliber and two assistants with a bundle of spare barrels and boxes of cartridges.
      2. -1
        2 October 2024 08: 46
        No caliber bullet will penetrate the promising SIB, which already holds a 12,7-mm armor-piercing bullet. It is necessary to significantly increase the speed of the bullet, but a heavy caliber bullet will give such a recoil that the shooter will not be able to withstand. A long but light bullet is needed. This is what they tried to develop, but TsNIITochMash simply ruined the case:

        https://сватеев-ва.рф/sib-cniitm.html
        1. +8
          2 October 2024 10: 19
          No caliber bullet will penetrate the promising SIB, which already holds a 12,7-mm armor-piercing bullet

          Well, there’s no need to penetrate it, 12,7 will turn all organs into dust even without penetrating.
        2. +7
          2 October 2024 13: 54
          Are you kidding? The BR6 weighs under 20 kg. This is body armor for special forces and specific one-time tasks, for example for sappers. You can't fight in this. But if a 12,7 mm bullet hits, there is a chance that the impact will make the horse move even without penetration.
          1. 0
            3 October 2024 07: 29
            There were two hits in the bulletproof vest, once from 5,45, the second from a PM.. From a Kalashnikov, most likely from far away, there were no special sensations, and the PM was close, the sigechishche was oh.. Well, of course it wasn't a horse that kicked, but still... I can imagine what will happen when 12 or 14 mm.. Your guts will flow out like jelly
            1. 0
              3 October 2024 07: 36
              A 12,7 bullet will hit you roughly the same amount as a boxing master, assuming he has an 8 kg fist (basically a fist made of depleted uranium). It will crush your chest or cause your internal organs to rupture from the impact.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 0
      7 October 2024 00: 20
      And how much will the mass of the cartridge change? Already now the fighters are loaded like pack mules, 12 magazines plus loose cartridges.
  3. +10
    2 October 2024 05: 51
    "There are targets on the battlefield other than people that are accessible to small arms" - I wonder which ones? For some reason I always thought that combat (as opposed to hunting) weapons are created specifically to destroy man by man. There is a lot of information on the Internet, some praise the 5,45 caliber, others criticize it, saying that 7,62 * 39 is better. Personally, I am inclined (based on my experience) to give preference to 7, 62 * 39. But this does not mean that my opinion is correct! Regarding the "new Russian weapon", the Americans are praising it in vain, apparently. Very negative reviews of the AK-12 and AK-15 are coming from the front. They write that after firing three magazines single-shot, the AK-12 begins to fail. Now there is a campaign to promote the RPL-20 with belt feed. I think again someone is interested in imposing an insufficiently developed weapon on the army. There is the RPK-16, and its snail now holds about a hundred rounds. It's like the story with the PYa, which is absolutely unsuitable for firing. They adopted a pistol that practically doesn't fire, and is even more dangerous for the soldier himself. The difference between the RPL-20 and the RPK-16 is that the RPL is belt fed. And I always had a question: who will load the belts during combat? They tell me that now the belts come from the factory, ready-made. But firstly: cartridges and belts tend to run out quickly, and secondly - they still need to be delivered from the factory or even the ammunition supply point to the machine gunner. And in our army there is such a constant phenomenon as chaos. And with such a phenomenon it is quite problematic.
    1. +2
      2 October 2024 06: 11
      "There are targets on the battlefield other than people that are accessible to small arms" - I wonder which ones?
      - I would ask the author,
      The bullet must be effective in all aspects.
      - What are the main aspects, besides effective firing range and bullet penetration thickness, is he talking about? Or is he talking about the ammunition that a soldier can carry on foot, or about changes in the fuel consumption of the vehicles transporting these soldiers?
    2. +1
      2 October 2024 06: 29
      Quote: fiberboard
      There is RPK-16
      You are behind the times. This project has been closed for a long time.
    3. +2
      2 October 2024 13: 14
      Box magazines for 60 rounds and drums for 100 showed extremely low reliability, why do we need the RPK-16, for the ability to change the barrels from short to long? No one in the infantry will do this, it is easier to release modernization kits for the RPK-74.
      1. -1
        2 October 2024 14: 10
        Better, better, of course better. But you can't make money on this. That's why different "ideas" are being promoted by "effective managers".
      2. +1
        2 October 2024 22: 00
        Quote from Woroshilow
        60-round box magazines and 100-round drum magazines have shown extremely low reliability

        Not a fact. I came across different reviews, but the most reasonable ones point to the manufacturer. The cheaper ones are the ones that refuse. They started to indicate a specific one in their requests. And for the RPK-74, I would most like a slide stop and a cartridge counter. The belt is definitely not needed.
    4. 0
      2 October 2024 13: 57
      Any weapon is tested in combat, then finalized.
      1. IVZ
        0
        2 October 2024 21: 01
        Any weapon is tested in combat, then finalized.
        Absolutely right, but before being tested in combat, the weapon undergoes a cycle of State tests with modifications based on their results, and only after that is it allowed for operation and combat use. No one will give a soldier an untested or unfinished sample, especially in combat.
    5. -1
      2 October 2024 17: 17
      Some praise the 5,45 caliber, others criticize it, saying that 7,62 *39 is better.


      But the real howlers say that 5.45 in stores is almost twice as light as 7.62 in stores. That is, roughly speaking, a fighter can take 5 7.62 stores or 10 5.45 stores. And that's where all the discussions end.

      There is also the RPK-16, and its snail now contains almost a hundred rounds of ammunition.


      The same snail that has serious complaints about reliability, and most importantly, heavy weight. In RPK 16, the weight of the drum and the weight of the BC are 1 to 1.
      1. 0
        3 October 2024 07: 35
        Have you never held loaded magazines in your hands?
        1. 0
          3 October 2024 15: 55
          I kept them separately, but I didn’t weigh them all together like that.

          What about the tape?


          And this is unknown. I personally have not seen any official or detailed information about the tape under 5.45. But there is such an unofficial

          The weight of one link of the metal belt for the RPL-20 machine gun is approximately 3 grams. Thus, 300 5.45 mm rounds in magazines for the RPK-16 weigh from 4,8 to 6 kg, while 300 of the same rounds in belts weigh 3.9 kg.
      2. -1
        3 October 2024 09: 07
        Quote: rait
        For RPK 16, the drum weight and the ammo weight are 1 to 1.

        And what about the tape? It seems to me that weight plays a much smaller role here than reliability.
    6. +1
      2 October 2024 18: 17
      The difference between the RPL-20 and the RPK-16 is that the RPL is belt fed. And I always had a question: who will load the belts during combat?

      And who equips the belts for the PKM during combat?
      1. -1
        2 October 2024 20: 31
        Don't compare these two machine guns, and don't compare the cartridge consumption. The PKM also uses a 7,62*54R cartridge. The RPK is a light machine gun, and the PKM is a single machine gun. One machine gunner works on the RPK, and half a platoon can work on the PKM. By the way, the Germans had it that way, the entire squad worked on the MG and all tactics were built around the MG.
        1. 0
          2 October 2024 22: 17
          I don't know, sir, how it was for the Germans in the Great Patriotic War of 41-45, half a century ago, but here's what I saw in 2001 in the counter-terrorist operation in Chechnya: in the 42nd motorized rifle division there wasn't even a crew number on the PKM, the machine gunner carried the machine gun and the boxes with belts on himself, loading the belts was purely his problem and the mob squad in which he served.
          1. -1
            3 October 2024 06: 32
            Poor organization on the part of officers. At the same time, I served in the 74th Brigade, it was about the same there, but others helped to drag the BK. On the PKM, there are 2000 BK and it is impossible for one person to drag it. In general, I like the short series on Zen "Dusty Faces". The film was shot by the Germans and reflects their view of the war, but the work of machine gun crews is shown exemplary. Watch it if you need to.
  4. +2
    2 October 2024 06: 35
    So is it worth the effort to find ways to use 6,8 mm?
    Wouldn’t it be better to return to the well-known and proven serial 7,62, discarding all its weight and size disadvantages from consideration?
    And saving energy, money and time.
    1. +4
      2 October 2024 06: 47
      This cartridge, despite all its advantages, has a noticeable drawback - a mortar trajectory. Which at distances of more than 300 meters is a bit of a problem if you don't have enough shooting training.
    2. +5
      2 October 2024 07: 02
      And will the 7.62 definitely have better armor penetration? I remember a video on the channel "Large-caliber commotion". There, the AK-74 had better penetration than the AKM.
      1. +2
        2 October 2024 08: 54
        We open the manuals for the AK74 and the AKM, and look at the bullet penetration at the end. It is almost equal. The 7,62 mm AKM is slightly better, by about 7 percent in terms of breastwork thickness, which does not decide anything.
    3. +3
      2 October 2024 09: 11
      Quote: U-58
      So is it worth the effort to find ways to use 6,8 mm?

      Our new cartridge is designed 6.02x41
    4. -2
      2 October 2024 11: 00
      Quote: U-58
      So is it worth the effort to find ways to use 6,8 mm?
      Wouldn’t it be better to return to the well-known and proven serial 7,62, discarding all its weight and size disadvantages from consideration?

      In the famous humorous story of American small arms, "Shooting some sacred cows," after the transition to 5,56 mm, the infantry in response to any innovation in the field of shooting gives only one answer: "bring back .30!!!" Or "how good it is that in the 80s... 90s... 2000s... 2010s they will return .30 to us". smile
    5. +1
      2 October 2024 22: 23
      a heavy bullet with an unreasonably strong recoil, the training of shooters will cost as much as the training of marksman, a rare commodity, not everyone can shoot like that, talent is needed. And the military thinks first of all about mobilization resources.
  5. +3
    2 October 2024 06: 47
    Back in 1913, the brilliant Russian gunsmith V. G. Fedorov invented the 6.5 mm cartridge and spent his entire life proving that this caliber was optimal for automatic weapons. General Fedorov was not listened to twice: in 1949, when 7.62x39 was adopted, and he was not remembered in 1974, when 5.45x39 was adopted.
    Has history really begun to put everything into place?
    1. 2al
      +4
      2 October 2024 11: 53
      As a result, the Fedorov submachine gun used the 6,5x50 mm Arisaka cartridge (1916) instead of the 6,5x57 mm Fedorov cartridge. Since even in the same caliber, it turned out to be difficult to produce a cartridge of a different design in the required volumes.
    2. +1
      3 October 2024 18: 25
      All his life he proved that such a caliber is optimal for automatic weapons

      Nothing of the sort. Fedorov advocated for caliber reduction and didn’t write anything about the optimality of 6,5 mm.
      Quote: Amateur
      General Fedorov was not listened to twice in 1949, when 7.62x39 was adopted, and he was not remembered in 1974, when 5.45x39 was adopted.

      Of course they remembered and that is why they accepted 5,45 - they reduced the caliber as Fedorov suggested. By the way, 6,5 mm cartridges were tested in both competitions. And if in the first they did not pass the industry level, then in the second they did not pass the DPV and recoil impulse.
  6. Eug
    +2
    2 October 2024 06: 51
    In my opinion, it is necessary to create a heavy PP of moderate dimensions like the SR-3 or AK-9 to arm the crews of BM, artillerymen and other types of the Armed Forces that do not conduct direct fire combat in the field. The task in this case should not be to penetrate the enemy's body armor, but to concuss with a heavy bullet when hitting at a distance of 200-250 m. For motorized riflemen and others conducting direct fire combat - an AK with a barrel length that allows you to squeeze the maximum out of the 5.45 cartridge. At the same time, reduce the capacity of the troop compartment of the BMP and APC to 6 seats - so that the placement of the landing force is more comfortable and entry and exit can be carried out at least a little, but faster. Light machine gun - RPK 7,62x39 with a solution to the issue of ammunition supply, then - 7.62x54. Somehow this is how it looks from the couch.
    1. +2
      2 October 2024 08: 43
      For light weapons, it is better not to use a heavy bullet, but a high-speed one. A hole punch. And the weapon is lighter and easier for a shooter with little practice to operate. And the penetration of the SIBZ can be quite decent. Although with low lethality. But the BM crews will not go on the attack, they will shoot back more. But the enemy will stop the attack after a couple of "punctures" and will crawl to the medical battalion.
      The more calibers, the worse. It is desirable for motorized riflemen to have no more than 4:
      1. 9×21 vehicle crews and all sorts of radio operators with drone operators.
      2. X,XX×XX main armament. What the article is about.
      3. 7,62×54R designated marksman machine gun.
      4. 12,7×108 sniper, heavy machine gun.
      And with the second position with X,XX×XX everything is not simple. I think it is necessary to increase the speed of the bullet while maintaining the mass and definitely increase the length of the barrel. In other words, there is a return to automatic rifles.
      1. +2
        2 October 2024 12: 27
        2. X,XX×XX main armament. What the article is about.
        3. 7,62×54R designated marksman machine gun.

        Ideally, the main cartridge should be the same for automatic rifles, designated marksman rifles, and light machine guns. It seems that 6.02x41 is a contender for this
        1. +1
          2 October 2024 15: 38
          A light machine gun definitely yes. But a marksman no. Its targets are further. More important. Smaller. They can be better protected. Even now the Br 5 holds a 7,62 54 armor-piercing shell. And a marksman must hit for sure, which means a full-fledged rifle and good ammunition.
          1. 0
            2 October 2024 18: 22
            The range of 6,02 is greater than that of 7,62x54R, but the armor penetration is no less.
            1. 0
              2 October 2024 20: 22
              Well, 6,02 is only in talks for now. I remember several such initiatives. Which will happen tomorrow.
              Well, according to the stories, the cartridge is good. But there are a lot of factors.
              The first and most important thing is the price. The second is the length of the barrel.
              If you take the same good old 7,62×39 and compare the results when shooting from AKM and SKS, the results will be different. I checked it myself.
              If a self-loading rifle with a caliber of 6,02 can realize the full potential of the cartridge, then in terms of direct shot range and armor penetration it can easily surpass 7,62×54, but can it be lethal enough? A small BB core that has lost a lot of speed from overcoming armor plates. A heavy bullet is better here.
              And on this topic of conversation, I heard something about this caliber n5.
              1. 0
                3 October 2024 07: 19
                5,45 is more lethal than 7,62x39, why would 6,02 be worse than 5,45?
                1. 0
                  3 October 2024 08: 21
                  6 02 is not worse. Better and that's for sure. But it's still not enough against body armor. Plus, burst fire is out of the question. Only single shots. That is, the cartridge is not an intermediate low-impulse cartridge. Rather, it's a low-impulse rifle cartridge.
                  What's the point? Either to increase the energy level to a full-fledged rifle due to speed or why is it needed at all?
                  1. 0
                    3 October 2024 10: 06
                    Against body armor plates, tungsten 6,8 is so-so, and when it becomes widespread, it will be completely useless against new plates.
                    The recoil impulse of 6,02 is less than that of 7,62x39, we slightly increase the weight of the machine gun, install a good compensator and get burst firing from unstable positions at the level of M-16, which is of course worse than AK-74, but quite acceptable.
                    6,02 can be used in both an assault rifle and a machine gun/rifle, in terms of range it surpasses the rifle 7,62 and is on the same level as 6,8x51.
                    1. 0
                      3 October 2024 11: 47
                      1. They said about instability right after the Ak22 was presented. The veterans of the riflemen's positions said it right away. Only single fire on target. No bursts. Not even short ones.
                      2. In terms of range, yes. But in terms of lethality at these ranges???
            2. 0
              2 October 2024 20: 33
              The speed of the 6,02 is still the same 800 plus or minus. The bullet is longer and therefore more susceptible to external influences. The weight is heavier, yes.
              It would be nice to tinker with the gunpowder and increase the speed to 900. A muzzle brake on the barrel. That would be a song.
              1. -1
                2 October 2024 23: 19
                And the barrel wear? About the muzzle brake - spare the ears of your neighbors in the trench. I won't even mention if you have to shoot from inside...
                1. +1
                  2 October 2024 23: 31
                  Well, if you're going to do it, then do it.
                  So what was done??? Scaled 5,45×39, adding a little bit in all directions. So what? The bullets have the same ballistic data, they lose energy proportionally. 6, due to its greater weight, accordingly maintains the speed of sound further.
                  But this is not enough. It is oh so difficult to penetrate the SIBZ.
                  If this caliber had a semi-jacketed bullet and a velocity of 900, then we could talk about a breakthrough. But no.
                  But this will already be a self-loading rifle.
                2. 0
                  2 October 2024 23: 32
                  Ballistic coefficient.
              2. 0
                3 October 2024 07: 16
                7,62x54R with PC
                initial bullet speed 825 m/s
                bullet speed at 900 meters 316 m/s

                6,02x41
                initial bullet speed 800 m/s
                bullet speed at 900 meters 400 m/s
                Judging by the weapon presented, this is from a barrel slightly longer than 400 mm, but you can also fire from a 600 mm barrel.
                1. 0
                  3 October 2024 08: 17
                  So what???? Small BB core. Based on official data, I recalculated the impact on the target. It turned out to be less than 70 J/mm5. And to penetrate the Br100 SIBZ, you need more than XNUMX.
                  If a semi-shell BB appears and preferably a tungsten one, it can and will penetrate.
                  And is it worth bothering if there is already no use from the new cartridge.
                  And 7,62×54R can be worked with ammunition once again. Especially for designated marksman. A unique target cartridge. Semi-jacketed. It can easily penetrate the Br5. This caliber still has potential for modernization.
                  1. 0
                    3 October 2024 10: 18
                    In terms of J/mm6,02 at the muzzle, 7,62 is approximately equal to 54x6,02R, but the 7,62 bullet loses speed more slowly and begins to outperform the XNUMX bullet with distance.
                    The weight of 6,02 is at least 1,5 times less, plus there is no welt, plus it is smaller in size, plus it heats up less when shooting.
                    1. 0
                      3 October 2024 11: 51
                      It's superior in speed. And in terms of impact on the target??? A light bullet is good. A high-speed light bullet. But for long-range shooting, a heavy high-speed bullet is better. It's better to tinker with the ammunition for long-range shooting with the 7,62 54 than to switch to a cartridge that is obviously less promising at long ranges.
      2. -1
        3 October 2024 09: 58
        Quote: garri-lin
        1. 9×21 vehicle crews and all sorts of radio operators with drone operators.

        Is this to shoot yourself? Because it is absolutely impossible to fight with such a person against 5,45
        1. 0
          3 October 2024 11: 43
          And they don't need to fight. They need to shoot back and hold the defense. And such a caliber in a PP with a long barrel can work well at 200 meters.
          But it is a compact, light weapon. And a compact but large ammunition supply. Those who do not use weapons constantly will not be able to use weapons at distances over 200 meters. They will not have enough skills.
          1. -1
            3 October 2024 14: 47
            Quote: garri-lin
            And such a caliber in a submachine gun with a long barrel can easily work at 200 meters.

            Well, good luck to you. And I'd rather go with the AK-74. It may be heavier, but the chances of survival are much higher.
            1. +1
              3 October 2024 18: 34
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              I'd rather have an AK-74.

              Of course you are without an AK74, because it burned in the car. And if you tried to get out with it, you would have burned with it. Self-defense weapons should not lie in a pack, but be on the body all the time. Only then will it be with you in an emergency.
              1. -1
                6 October 2024 17: 12
                Quote: Droid
                Of course you don't have an AK74 because it burned in the car.

                And with a useless piece of iron shooting useless pistol bullets, all your thoughts will be about how it would be better if it burned up in the car than to drag around extra senseless cargo. So you shouldn't do this crap, but replace the AKS-74U. It's good that there is the AM-17.
          2. 0
            3 October 2024 18: 32
            Quote: garri-lin
            They need to shoot back while maintaining defense.

            Something like the Belgian 5,7mm or German 4,6mm would be much better suited for this. The cartridge is 1,5 times lighter and the recoil impulse is almost 2 times smaller. And the speed is high, you can shoot up to 200-250 m without changing the sight.
            1. 0
              3 October 2024 21: 03
              Is there anything similar in Russia that has been developed to the point of mass production???
              The only thing that comes to mind is a sub-caliber on a TT cartridge case for the Sudayev assault rifle.
              And the 9×21 is well-developed. And there are weapons for it. In general, it's a good caliber. And an army pistol. And a self-defense carbine from pilots to rear service personnel. And assault PPs for city cleanups. Different ammunition, of course.
              1. 0
                3 October 2024 21: 10
                I like the PP SR3 Veresk. It's probably suitable for these purposes, but you can also think about the AKSU or AM-17 - their dimensions are larger, but not much. And I think the efficiency will be higher than that of the PP.
                1. 0
                  3 October 2024 21: 33
                  AKSU and AM 17 are compact. But the problem is the ammunition.
                  The short barrel does not allow the ammunition to reveal its potential. Plus it is noisy.
                  And what is the article about? About the transition to a new caliber.
    2. +1
      2 October 2024 09: 28
      At the same time, reduce the capacity of the troop compartment of the infantry fighting vehicle and armored personnel carrier to 6 seats.

      Are you also proposing to reduce the department's staff? Or should the department travel with 1,5 BMP/APC?
      1. 0
        2 October 2024 09: 48
        The paratroopers somehow ride in BMDs with a smaller capacity.
        1. 0
          2 October 2024 09: 52
          And what is their squad staff? It seems illogical to me that the basic unit (in this case, the squad) does not fit into the basic vehicle. Either reduce the unit, or equip the basic unit with TWO vehicles.
          Regarding the paratroopers: dear readers, please enlighten me on the staff of the Airborne Forces unit and how they fit into the BMD.
          1. +1
            2 October 2024 09: 55
            The airborne force also has the BTR-D and its modern version, the BTR-MDM. And this is a more flexible structure, as it allows the additional BTR to carry heavy small arms.
      2. Eug
        0
        2 October 2024 10: 09
        In reality, units are very rarely "full-staffed".
        1. 0
          2 October 2024 12: 01
          and this is not a plus...
  7. 0
    2 October 2024 07: 28
    I read a translated article on Inosmi 4 years ago, where they voiced the problem that the Mujahideen are wearing new Chinese body armor and standard bullets don't take them down. A military correspondent who had been there wrote it, and they had already started working on switching to a new caliber, saying it was a serious problem. So they will definitely switch. But here everyone is shouting that we have enough, that everything is fine with us!
    1. +2
      2 October 2024 08: 27
      The main mode of 5.45 is to hit the target with a short burst, the cartridge is low-impulse, the dispersion diameter is small, some of the bullets must hit, with an increase in caliber, the "low-impulse" disappears and the diameter in automatic mode will be large, as a result, the main fire mode will be single, which is better is an open question.
      And then, if, say, you have a heavy weapon that penetrates the enemy's bulletproof vests well, and the enemy's weapon is light and does not penetrate yours well, then it would be logical for the enemy to abandon his bulletproof vests and at the same time increase his ammunition, and again it is not clear which is better.
      1. +3
        2 October 2024 09: 00
        No one will refuse armor anymore. It protects not only from bullets, but also from shrapnel.
    2. +2
      2 October 2024 08: 58
      Armored vests that protect against point-blank armor-piercing (!) rifle bullets are already in all armies of the world. That's why the Americans started the NGSW program, because we supplied the troops with Ratnik with the same 6B43 armored vest.
  8. -1
    2 October 2024 09: 03
    it was an urgent matter... I personally saw how 5.45 ricocheted off a sign on a door made of plexiglass... to be fair, the angle was small and from a close distance, but nevertheless... I was stunned...
    1. +1
      3 October 2024 18: 36
      Have you seen 30mm shells ricochet off the ground or 122mm shells off a watermelon? Look on YouTube, there's a video there.
  9. 0
    2 October 2024 09: 12
    Quote: Amateur
    Back in 1913, the brilliant Russian gunsmith V.G. Fedorov invented the 6.5 mm cartridge and spent his entire life proving that this caliber is optimal for automatic weapons.


    The Japanese have been using the 6.5x50mm caliber (for the "arisaka") since 1897, so Fedorov did not invent it.
    However, a similar caliber may indeed be optimal. Neither 5.45 nor 5.56 are really what is needed in modern conditions. And 7.62 not only has a strong recoil, but also increased wear and a short service life.
    1. +1
      2 October 2024 12: 05
      so Fedorov did not invent it.
      - Fedorov initially had a cartridge of his own design 6,5x57 and the weapon was made for it, but the beginning of WWI put an end to this cartridge, 6,5x50 Arisaka, this is already a forced measure....
  10. 0
    2 October 2024 09: 16
    Quote: agond
    The main mode of 5.45 is to hit the target with a short burst, the cartridge is low-impulse, the dispersion diameter is small, some of the bullets must hit, with an increase in caliber, the "low-impulse" disappears and the diameter in automatic mode will be large, as a result, the main fire mode will be single, which is better is an open question.


    Recoil can be reduced not only by reducing the impulse, but also by design. The accuracy of a smaller caliber shot is more dependent on external factors (wind, obstacles such as foliage or grass).
    However, it might be worth increasing the bullet weight not by increasing the diameter, but by increasing the length (5.45x51 mm, for example).
  11. UAT
    +3
    2 October 2024 09: 42
    A couple of trivial statements are poured out of the air into the air. The translation of the machine gun, which has never been seen by the human eye: "The cartridge is light, it has a fairly high speed."
  12. +4
    2 October 2024 10: 03
    How long can we confuse the concepts of "bullet" and "cartridge" and use them inappropriately?
  13. +2
    2 October 2024 11: 09
    When NATO switched to the 5,56mm caliber, the USSR responded with 5,45mm.
    Now the Pentagon will switch to 6,8mm.
    And what caliber are we talking about? Maybe Fedorov's? In 1911, he created the 6,5x57 mm, which was more powerful than the 6,5x50 mm Arisaka. But it [the 6,5x57 cartridge] was not accepted into service, and Fedorov created the world's first machine gun based on the Arisaka.
    1. 0
      2 October 2024 12: 22
      It would be more correct to think not about how to stupidly increase the caliber by 1.5-2 mm, but about how to equip the weapon with a computerized sight that will recognize targets and highlight them on the screen of the eyepiece-monitor and at the same time mark the point of impact for the current position of the weapon on the screen with a mark, and when the mark coincides with the selected target, fire a shot (the shooter would only have to aim the weapon at the target selected by the computer and hold the ON button of the sight). Then burst firing will not be needed and it will be possible to increase the caliber and reduce the carried ammunition to a minimum and, perhaps, even hit drones with the first shot.
      1. +1
        3 October 2024 09: 17
        The IDF has similar smart sights. To simplify firing. Expensive.
        In essence, the infantry is transformed into marksmen.
      2. 0
        3 October 2024 14: 39
        The XM7 also has a "smart" sight from SIG, you can see it in the main photo. It's not a SmartShooter like the Israelis, but it has a laser rangefinder and a calculator, and it highlights where to aim in the eyepiece. That is, even a not very trained shooter can quite easily hit targets at a distance of 700-800 meters. They say that there is something else - tapa target marking, but it is not clear how true this is and how much it works.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          7 October 2024 13: 24
  14. 2al
    0
    2 October 2024 11: 58
    The transition to a shooting range of more than 400 m is also a significantly different quality of shooter training, which can of course be improved by introducing features into sights and most likely efficiency is achievable only for robotic systems. To implement all their capabilities, a caliber of 9 mm and higher is still more appropriate.
  15. +1
    2 October 2024 12: 13
    I wouldn't rush to bury the .22 caliber, our bullet length allows us to modernize it, for example, we can make bullets entirely from powder steel or harden a stamped bullet with a high-strength polymer coating on the bullet so that the coating on the rifling works, and the use of modern gunpowder will increase the initial velocity, and a compensation groove on the cartridge case needs to be made, we'll kill 5 birds with one stone and there is no particular need to restructure production soldier
  16. 0
    2 October 2024 13: 40
    Quote: faiver
    6,5x50 Arisaka, this is already a forced measure....


    Which, however, appeared earlier.
  17. +4
    2 October 2024 14: 18
    Yes, the new 6,8mm ammo is between those two sizes. (7,62 and 5,56). Perhaps 6,8mm is a good compromise, but it's impossible to know even after some comprehensive testing.

    Is this seriously all the author can say about the new cartridge? And the fact that in terms of energy it is already somewhat "beyond" 7,62 in the direction of increase, for which it was necessary to build a "unique" case (brass can no longer withstand such pressures) and the new weapon itself, and not just re-barrel the M-s? That such an increase in power no longer provides for the use of a weapon without a standard muzzle device? And a heavier one too had to to do because of this. And the effect on the survivability of the barrels (that's where you could mock the Americans)? In short, the topic is somehow weakly revealed.
    1. 0
      2 October 2024 20: 52
      Don't repeat myths. The pressure is increased due to fast-burning powder, not by increasing the charge. That is, the same energy is released in less time, which allowed the barrel to be shortened. The weapon to be lighter and smaller. The barrel's durability is longer than that of the 308, because the super-powerful cartridge is an invention of those unfamiliar with this technology and who only fell for the pressure. "Heavier" is +200 grams to the M16A2. And the muzzle device - what does the AK-74 have?
      1. -1
        2 October 2024 23: 24
        A short barrel with a powerful cartridge is a very loud bang in the ears and a flamethrower from the cut... I saw a pretzel shooting from a short Saiga chambered for .308 Win - it's just Hell and Israel!
        1. 0
          3 October 2024 20: 21
          That is, with regular gunpowder. Look for a video of shooting from an M7, including an automatic one. By the way: "bang" even on an AK74, that's why tactical silencers became the standard.
  18. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      2 October 2024 20: 58
      The training cartridge appeared due to the shooting range, to which modern firing ranges are not adapted. The barrel resource was initially large, otherwise they would not have been allowed to participate in the competition. Small numbers are an invention of those who fell for the "high pressure".
  19. 0
    2 October 2024 17: 03
    5,56 is a slightly more powerful cartridge than 5,45 - therefore, with a combination of a longer barrel, better accuracy results. Both cartridges work up to 500 meters. One can assure that they work further, but this is already a chatterbox and chatter... The steel core of 5,45 penetrates vests, 5,56 does not have it in the mass cartridge, therefore it does not penetrate. 6,8 SPC is already a different cartridge, more powerful. Grendel could be taken as a basis, but slightly increase the volume. 6,5 is a very good cartridge, and 7,62x39 too, but weak
  20. -4
    2 October 2024 19: 15
    The Yankees have already degraded below the bottom, but it turns out it is possible to go even lower laughing - they switched to small caliber without any meaningful justification - now they have just as senselessly decided to switch to 6.8 - well, go back to 7.62, you idiots - especially since there are billions of them in warehouses
  21. -1
    2 October 2024 19: 16
    When they rearm to a new caliber, they will come up with new materials for bulletproof vests. "Smells like" collusion between the military-industrial complex and officials?
  22. 0
    2 October 2024 19: 35
    The abandonment of 7,62 was the greatest stupidity. Of course, in those days they did not assume the presence of body armor. But now we need to return the caliber of 6-7 mm. As a former attack aircraft - we had AKMS or captured RPDs. With 5,45 RPK-74 in the development or in the bushes there is nothing to do at all. In the photo are Chinese cartridges, which are in service with the PLA. 5,8x21 DAP-92, 5,8x42 DBP-10, and 7,62x39. And why did not the cunning Chinese abandon such an ancient caliber? (Photo - personal collection)
  23. 0
    2 October 2024 21: 30
    I recently bought 20 Russian 7.62x39 for my SKS.
    Out of 20 pieces, 2 turned out to be defective. That is 10%.
    I bought American ones - 0 defects.
    1. +2
      2 October 2024 22: 34
      -Please announce the difference in price! :)
    2. 0
      2 October 2024 23: 25
      What does "defective" mean? what
  24. +1
    2 October 2024 23: 21
    According to the realities of the war in Ukraine, casualties from small arms account for no more than 10% of the total number of wounded and killed....
    Maybe it would be better to spend the money on additional mortars for the units fighting in LBS....
  25. -1
    3 October 2024 05: 51
    Children argue about who is cooler: Batman or Spider-Man?
  26. +1
    3 October 2024 18: 47
    what happens when a bullet of that caliber hits a person on the battlefield wearing a bulletproof vest.

    It hits the head and the person dies.
    It hits the lower abdomen, crushes the pelvis and tears the bladder. The person dies if he is not given emergency help.
    It hits the neck-upper chest and crushes the spine or tears the arteries - the person dies.
    It hits the limb (60-70% of hits) and crushes the bone in at least half of the cases. The person bleeds and loses the ability to actively move and perform a combat mission.

    What else? Oh, yeah! Sometimes, about 10% of the time, the bullet hits the armor plate and it finally protects its wearer.
    1. 0
      3 October 2024 20: 56
      I'm not quite sure about these figures - I think even if you just count by area, the armor plate covers more than 10% of the body. And if they shoot accurately, they still aim at the middle of the body, right at the armor plate, so there will be even more hits. But in general, yes, only the armor plate protects against a bullet in a bulletproof vest.
      1. 0
        3 October 2024 21: 28
        If you refuse automatic fire, then you can immediately increase the caliber, for example, to 15 mm with a smooth barrel and shoot packets of arrows, 7 pieces at a time, if they scatter little at a distance of up to 500 m, then there will be 2-3 hits on the target.
      2. +1
        3 October 2024 21: 41
        Quote: Szerg
        I think even if you just count by area, the armor plate covers more than 10% of the body

        The area of ​​the armor plate of a general-purpose armored vehicle is 7-8 square decimeters, and the area of ​​the frontal projection of the full-length vehicle is about 70 square meters.
        Quote: Szerg
        And if they shoot accurately, they still aim at the middle of the body, right at the armor plate, so there will be even more hits on it.

        According to statistics, in two world wars the percentage of hits to the chest-spine was 12,4-13%. Even if the armor plate completely covers this area... 13% protection.
    2. 0
      6 October 2024 12: 40
      alas, the laws of physics cannot be fooled - the energy of a bullet hitting body armor, even if the armor holds up, is transferred to the "organism" that carries this armor :-)))))
      1. 0
        6 October 2024 20: 20
        An impulse is transmitted. And if the armor plate is not penetrated and the armored person has a normal CAP, then nothing serious will happen, except for a bruise in the worst case.
  27. 0
    6 October 2024 12: 37
    our 5,45x39mm cartridge is noticeably weaker than the American/NATO 5,56x45mm which is equal to the former Soviet 400x7,62mm at a distance of approximately 39m.... and why then did they switch from 7,62x39 to 5,45x39 if the Americans returned to 6,8mm cartridges
    1. 0
      11 October 2024 16: 45
      Why is it noticeably weaker? Especially since 5,45*39 is more armor-piercing than 7,62*39, if that matters...
      If you are confused by the large length of the American cartridge case, then look at these two cartridges side by side...
      The NATO bullet is very deeply recessed into the case, while ours barely extends beyond the neck of the case inside. So the hole is about the same and the ballistics of the cartridge are almost identical...
      There is a new fashion in the West now, to make 5,45 ARCs...
      The Americans make a 6,8*51 cartridge, which is a full-fledged rifle cartridge; the same Japanese Arisakas, which they fought with in both WWI and WWII, have a 6,5*50 cartridge, which is a fully-fledged rifle cartridge...
      It should be compared not with 7,62*39, but with 7,62*51... The new cartridge is faster and flatter and a little lighter... Its armor-piercing is higher than that of 7,62*51, but not significantly...
      1. 0
        11 October 2024 17: 29
        And our 7,39x39 mm and the American 5,56x45 mm are almost identical in their capabilities at distances starting from 300 m, up to 300 m our cartridge is noticeably superior to the American. But our 5,45x39 mm is inferior to them in energy. And if you really wanted to switch to the 5,6 mm caliber and save metal due to the lower bullet weight, then why not use the 74x5,56 mm cartridge of 45 for the AK-1970? Moreover, the AK chambered for 5,56x45 mm shows bullet dispersion characteristics no worse than the M16A1 chambered for 5,56x45 mm. …
        -----
        Name; Bullet diameter; Bullet weight; Transverse load; Charge weight; Specific energy J/sq. mm; Bullet energy J at a distance of: 0m, 100m, 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m. = Superiority index
        A) 7,62x39 mm 57-N-231 -- 7,92 mm -- 7,8-8 g. -- 16,24 kg/ sq. mm. -- 1,6 g.
        0m 42,2 / 2075 = 1,60
        100m 31,1 / 1530 = 1,59
        200m 22,5 / 1106 = 1,59
        300m 16,1 / 791 = 1,60
        400m 11,7 / 573 = 1,67
        500m 8,9 / 440 = 1,81
        --------------------------------
        B) 5,45x39 mm 7N6, 7N10, 7N22 -- 5,72 mm -- 3,4 -3,6 gr. -- 14,66 kg/sq.mm. -- 1,4-1,5 g.
        0m 50,4 / 1295 = 1,00
        100m 37,3 / 959 = 1,00
        200m 27,0 / 695 = 1,00
        300m 19,2 / 493 = 1,00
        400m 13,4 / 344 = 1,00
        500m 9,4 / 243 = 1,00
        ------------------------------------
        C) 5,56x45 mm CC109, M855, M193 -- 5,67 mm -- 4,0 g. -- 15,68 kg/mm1,6. -- 1,7-XNUMX g.
        0m 68,9 / 1758 = 1,36
        100m 53,6 / 1368 = 1,43
        200m 41,2 / 1050 = 1,51
        300m 31,1 / 794 = 1,61
        400m 23,1 / 589 = 1,71
        500m 17,0 / 433 = 1,78
        1. +1
          11 October 2024 17: 49
          You wrote some scary numbers, did you even understand them yourself?
          How do you divide 50,4/1295 and get 1?
          And what are these zamuifs 50,4 and 1295 and how are they obtained?
          In fact, both bullets have an initial velocity of about 900 m/s, our bullet is on average 10% lighter...
          How can there be much less energy there, I don't know...
          1. 0
            11 October 2024 18: 05
            "/" is not division :-)) it is a division sign ... however, take the speed of the bullets at distances and calculate it yourself :-) Energy = speed x speed / 19,6 - though not in joules, but in kgf.m.s ... then divide the energy of the bullet at a given distance and at a given speed by the cross-section of the bullets :-))) - and you will get the specific energy of the bullets ... how to calculate the transverse load - divide the mass of the bullet by the cross-section of the bullet .... the cross-section is calculated using the formula 3,14 x (bullet diameter / 2) squared :-))
        2. +1
          11 October 2024 19: 36
          Quote: Alexander Igorevich Rifeev
          And our 7,39x39 mm and the American 5,56x45 mm are practically identical in their capabilities at distances starting from 300 m; up to 300 m, our cartridge is noticeably superior to the American.

          It is not.
          1. The lethality of 5,56 and 5,45 is greater than that of 7,62x39.
          2. Ballistics and recoil impulse are more important than abstract energy. That's why after WWII they switched to intermediate, not caring about the 1,7 times difference in energy with rifle cartridges. And 5,45 has the lowest recoil impulse of all machine gun cartridges, and in terms of ballistics it covers 7,62x39 like a bull covers a sheep.
          1. 0
            Yesterday, 09: 10
            then why are the Americans going to switch to the 6,8 mm caliber? and why did the once advertised German 4,7 mm caliber never go "to the people"? for killing a person, it is not the ballistics and the recoil impulse that are important - the energy of the bullet at shooting distances is more important - 200 m or 400 m (for machine gun cartridges) and at 600 m or more (for rifle cartridges)
            1. +1
              Yesterday, 16: 40
              Quote: Alexander Igorevich Rifeev
              Then why are the Americans going to switch to the 6,8mm caliber?

              Because they want to penetrate armor plates. The problem is that: 1. they won't penetrate, 2. there's no need to penetrate.
              Quote: Alexander Igorevich Rifeev
              Why did the once advertised German 4,7 mm caliber never reach the "people"?

              What other nation? Where are you going to shove a unique caseless cartridge?
              Quote: Alexander Igorevich Rifeev
              for killing a person, it is not the ballistics and recoil momentum that are important - what is more important is the energy of the bullet at shooting distances - 200 m or 400 m (for machine gun cartridges) and at 600 m or more (for rifle cartridges)

              5,45, even the old 7N6, will pierce a steel helmet together with the head at 800 m. That's all you need to know about the energy to kill a person. And soldiers hit from AK74 up to 1,5 times more often than from AKM - that's what life-giving ballistics with recoil momentum do.
              1. увы, вероятность попадания в цель из 7,62 мм АКМ и 5,45 АК-74 в реальных условиях боя на дистанции до 300 м практически одинакова и пули 7,62 мм лучше пробивают препятствия - грунт насыпной, кирпичную стену, деревянные конструкции чем пули 5,45 мм - энергия пуль разная - см. таблицу опубликованную выше .... а вероятность попадания в цель которая в 1,5 раза больше у пуль 5,45 мм чем у пуль 7,62 мм - то это в условиях полигона :-))
  28. +1
    6 October 2024 20: 13
    The 7N6 cartridge should be removed from service and only the 7N22 cartridge should be left, and the problems with armor penetration will disappear. The 7N22 has a cheap core made of U12A steel. It was adopted for service in 1998. What is the problem?
    1. 0
      6 October 2024 20: 21
      Quote: vh48905
      The 7N6 cartridge needs to be removed from service

      It hasn't been produced for a long time, if I'm not mistaken.

      Quote: vh48905
      leave only the 7N22 cartridge and the problems with armor penetration will disappear

      The armor plate holds an armor-piercing rifle at point-blank range.
      1. 0
        6 October 2024 20: 27
        The armor plate holds, but such a bulletproof vest weighs 10-12 kg and protects 30% of the entire body surface.
        1. 0
          6 October 2024 20: 39
          Quote: vh48905
          protects 30% of the entire body surface.

          Much less, if we are talking about anti-bullet protection. General-purpose equipment is about 10%, assault - up to 20%. No, of course you can hang even more, but you can die before you get to the enemy.
          Well, the main problem with a bulletproof vest is the small area of ​​bulletproof protection.
          1. 0
            6 October 2024 20: 44
            Exactly, carry 300 rounds of ammunition, magazines, grenades, helmet, water, etc. Run is no longer an option, only walking under enemy fire. Jump into a trench or from an APC and your vertebrae fall into your pants.
            You can sit in such a bulletproof vest, but you can’t fight in it.
  29. 0
    11 October 2024 16: 34
    Will it punch better?
    Of course it will be.
    The question is about the resources spent on rearmament of the army, replacement of strategic reserves and so on and so forth, plus again there is disunification in NATO armies...
    And in the resulting profit...
    The bulletproof vests did not reach their maximum capabilities...
    As a result, another 5 years will pass and other plates, more durable, will become the standard, and working passive exoskeletons are already appearing and in 10 years they will become a mass and affordable phenomenon...
    The question is, will such rearmament be of any use? And the answer is very ambiguous...
    Against modern armies - most likely not. Against armies of the 3rd-4th world, perhaps, since innovations will reach them longer...
    So it's all debatable...
    The money will be spent on a hundred modern aircraft, but will it make sense?
    I personally think not...
    But this is only if we carry out a complete rearmament of the army...
    If such rifles are only used by army special forces, which are planned to be used against terrorists and in asymmetric wars, there will be some benefit...
    It's just that modern wars are the place where small arms combat gives the least losses. Rockets, bombs, mines, artillery, drones rule the roost... When it comes to machine guns, it usually means that the enemy has practically lost its combat capability...
    Therefore, as a rifle for the US paratroopers, I think the rifle is very cool, but as a rearmament of the entire armed forces - this is at the very least an irrational use of resources...
    Let's see what the Americans decide.
    They have the resources, but will they go for it...
    In this way, it is possible to arm everyone with FN Files in 7,62*51 caliber, fortunately there are as many rifles as you want and the production of cartridges is well established and there is no need to change machine guns... At the same time, the Americans now have very good armor-piercing cartridges in this caliber...