Reflections on the future of VTOL aircraft in the Russian Armed Forces in general and the navy in particular

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Reflections on the future of VTOL aircraft in the Russian Armed Forces in general and the navy in particular

Not long ago, VO published articles in which the respected Roman Skomorokhov substantiates the advantages of creating a deck aviation based on vertical takeoff and landing aircraft (VTOL). I will express my thoughts on this topic.

A bit of history


Interest in such machines arose in the 50s. It was due to the rapid development of jet aviation: planes became faster, larger, heavier and required kilometer-long runways for their basing. But it was obvious that such large-scale structures would become the target of various types of enemy ammunition for tactical nuclear weapon inclusive. At the same time, the parameters of the latest aircraft engines allowed, in theory, to create VTOL aircraft that would not need such runways.

In the West, the first attempts to create a VTOL aircraft did not lead to anything good: the matter was limited to 1-2 unsuccessful prototypes. But in 1961, the NATO technical commission formulated the requirements for a vertical takeoff and landing fighter-bomber, with the total need for such aircraft estimated at 5 units. This, naturally, caused quite a stir among aircraft manufacturers. The Americans, Germans, French, Italians, English and even the Dutch presented their VTOL aircraft projects.

However, only the British managed to bring their project to series production. We are talking, of course, about the VTOL aircraft "Harrier".

This aircraft became a perfect illustration of the proverb: "a camel is a horse made in England." Low speed, short range, modest combat load, lack of radar made the "Harrier" in its combat capabilities no more than a subsonic attack aircraft with far from the best characteristics in its class. However, the unrestrained economy into which the sirs and peers of Foggy Albion fell led to the fact that the "Harrier" became the only aircraft that could receive the once formidable Royal Air Force. fleetThe admirals rightly decided that something flying was better than nothing at all, and tried to mold the Harrier into a fighter-bomber.


What came of this was demonstrated by the Falklands conflict.

VTOL aircraft in the Falklands conflict


The Argentines had a formal advantage in the air, but they had no airfield in the Falklands where modern fighters could be based. Accordingly, their aircraft had to operate at the maximum radius, and besides, the Argentine Air Force simply could not use its aircraft with high intensity.



By the time the British troops began landing, the Argentines had at least 75-85 Skyhawks, Mirages, Daggers and Canberras. This does not include all sorts of small stuff like the propeller-driven aircraft of the Pucara Malvinas Squadron, technically faulty aircraft, as well as units that were fully combat-ready but reserved in case of a Chilean invasion.

Nevertheless, on the most difficult and hardest day for the British, May 21, that is, the first day of the battle on the "bomb alley", the Argentine Air Force made only 58 sorties. And in general, during the culmination - that same battle on the "bomb alley", which lasted 5 days, the Argentines had enough for only 163 sorties or 32,6 sorties per day. And not all of them were directed against the British ships.

The British had 25 Sea Harriers plus 6 regular Harriers that were not equipped with radar. I do not know whether the latter were used to intercept Argentine aircraft in the air. Considering that of the 25 Sea Harriers, probably about 22 machines (80%) were operational, the British formally clearly had something to counter the Argentine raids.

But in practice it turned out to be a complete embarrassment.

Because of the short range of the Harriers, the British commander had to take a risk and bring his carrier group into an area where they could be attacked by enemy aircraft. There was no other way to ensure that VTOL aircraft were constantly on duty over the landing zone.

With no less than 22 radar-equipped and combat-ready aircraft, the British could not provide two combat patrols, one over the landing site and one over the aircraft carriers, although they were separated by only 80 miles. The choice was made in favor of the landing zone…

The result: the Argentines, having fixed the place where the Sea Harriers take off and land with radar from the Falklands, were able to determine the location of the British aircraft carriers and direct their Super Etendards at them. As a result, two launched Exocet missiles hit the Atlantic Conveyor, which greatly complicated the logistics of the British expeditionary forces, destroying a unit of heavy helicopters that this transport was transporting. The fact that none of the aircraft carriers were damaged can be attributed to the weakness of the attack (only two missiles), the low resistance to interference of the Exocet seeker and, undoubtedly, the great luck of the British.

Thus, the aircraft carriers, left without protection, were exposed to serious risk, but they also failed to cover the landing site. In just 5 days of fighting on the "bomb alley", the Argentines launched 26 air attacks, in which 85 aircraft took part. Of these, 22 (84,6%) were successful, and of the 85 aircraft, 72 (84,7%) broke through to the British ships. And this despite the fact that the Argentines did not cover their attack formations with fighters, which could have engaged the British patrol in air combat, paving the way for the attack aircraft.

It is quite obvious that the combat debut of the Sea Harriers as air superiority fighters did not take place at all. Despite the presence of radar, these aircraft, apparently, were never able to detect an air enemy on their own. There was one case when the Sea Harriers seemed to detect an attack by the Mentors, but even there, most likely, they were called in for help by an attacked British helicopter. That is, even being in close proximity, the British pilots could not work ahead of the threat, but only responded to the threat, receiving information from the attacked ships.

Things would probably have gone better if the British had had AWACS helicopters at their disposal. But it must be understood that even if they had, due to their short time in the air, such helicopters still could not have provided round-the-clock coverage of the landing zone.

The fact that the British Sea Harriers managed to achieve success at all (they shot down 1 aircraft in air combat between 25 and 18 May) is explained primarily by the antediluvian tactics of the Argentine Air Force, which was forced to throw its strike aircraft into attacks with free-fall bombs. Moreover, without air cover capable of tying down the British air patrol in combat.

In those cases when the Argentines used more modern methods: opening the enemy's order with the help of AWACS aircraft (they had them!) and the subsequent attack with supersonic attack aircraft equipped with Exocet anti-ship missiles, the British pilots could not resist them at all. The Argentines carried out three such attacks in the complete absence of any counteraction from the British VTOL aircraft. Moreover, their ancient AWACS aircraft became completely unusable after the first attack, so that in the future the Argentines used other aircraft for reconnaissance, including regular passenger airliners.

Of course, it can't be said that the Sea Harriers were useless in the Falklands. By shooting down enemy aircraft, they ultimately contributed to the exhaustion of the Argentine air force, but they succeeded only because of the latter's weakness. But as a means of preventing air attacks, the British VTOL aircraft suffered a complete fiasco.

What would happen if the British were faced with a well-organized air force capable of conducting American-style air operations?

When the enemy formation is found and monitored by ELINT and AEW aircraft. When a specially assigned air clearing group is engaged in combating the aircraft covering the formation. When strike aircraft deploy, hiding behind the radio horizon for the time being, preparing to attack from several directions. When a demonstration group begins the attack, with the aim of forcing the enemy to turn on their fire control radars, and then these radars are jammed by a suppression group using interference and anti-radar missiles. And, while the enemy Defense overloaded, strike groups carry out a massive missile attack from several sides.

I suppose the question of how long a British carrier group would have held out under such an attack is rhetorical.

VTOL aircraft in Western countries in the late 20th – early 21st centuries


Of course, the Falklands proved beyond a doubt that VTOL aircraft were unsuitable as fighter-bombers. But as attack aircraft they demonstrated one very important advantage that horizontal takeoff and landing aircraft did not and could not have.

After the landing of the main forces, the British quickly built a field airfield, with a runway only 40 meters long, which was laid out with aluminum slabs directly on the ground. As a result, the aircraft based there could be at the attack site 20-25 minutes after the request was received. The Harriers based on aircraft carriers needed much more time.

The Americans really liked this idea. And they brought it to life, incorporating VTOL aircraft into their Marine Corps (MC) and upgrading the Harriers to the Harrier II version.

But you have to understand: in the US Armed Forces, the Harrier was not a multi-role fighter in any form. It is a highly specialized aircraft, a battlefield attack aircraft, which is needed only and exclusively by the Marine Corps due to its specificity. The actions of the ground army are supported by the Air Force, but a large landing can only be supported by aircraft from an aircraft carrier.

But it is dangerous to place an aircraft carrier in plain sight of the enemy, its main defense is stealth, so keeping it in close proximity to the landing site is not always possible. At the same time, operating from afar, an aircraft carrier can, of course, provide air cover for the landing zone, but it will be difficult and not always possible for it to constantly keep attack aircraft over it. For direct support of the Marines, it will be more effective to use VTOL aircraft, since they can take off from the UDC located near the shore or even from an improvised airfield on the captured bridgehead.

Harriers performed roughly the same functions in Spain and Italy.


Their fleets are NATO fleets, with their assigned roles and division of responsibility. The small aircraft carriers of the British, Spanish, and Italians performed primarily anti-submarine defense functions, and secondarily, strike functions, including as a means of supporting landings. But no one set the task of gaining air supremacy before them and their air groups, of course, and they are incapable of solving it. Perhaps in a confrontation with some African country, but even among them there were some that it would be better not to go to on the Giuseppe Garibaldi without the support of the "big good guys" in the form of the Air Force or American aircraft carriers.

The Harrier II is a highly specialized naval attack aircraft, which, of course, will fight in the air if attacked, but such a situation is force majeure for it. Since air combat is certainly not included in the typical list of tasks of an attack aircraft.

In fact, this is the niche that VTOL aircraft have historically been able to occupy.

Yak-141 USSR and US JSF program


The American program (Joint Strike Fighter) was extremely ambitious, because within its framework it was planned to create an aircraft capable of replacing several combat aircraft at once, including the F/A-18 C/D and F-16 multirole fighters and the A-10, AV-8B and EA-6B attack aircraft.

It turned out, of course, with major reservations, because it is impossible to replace both a pure attack aircraft and a multi-role fighter-bomber with one machine without serious compromises. Especially considering the requirement that one of the aircraft modifications must be a VTOL aircraft.

Nevertheless, the Americans ended up with a rather interesting family of aircraft, represented by three modifications: the F-35A for the Air Force, the F-35C for their naval aviation, and the F-35B – a VTOL aircraft for the Marine Corps.

This family of aircraft, let's say, albeit limited, is still suitable for air combat. In close air combat (CAC), the F-35 is inferior to American 4th generation aircraft, such as the latest F-16 modifications and the F/A-18 Super Hornet, but can still stand up for itself.

At the same time, the F-35 family is a stealth fighter and as such has an advantage in long-range air combat (LRAC). Unlike the Harriers and our Yak-38, they have a full-fledged avionics of a light fighter, with a first-class radar, optical location station, etc. The maximum combat load of the F-35 exceeds that of the Harrier and is quite comparable to the A-6E attack aircraft. But, of course, only if the F-35 carries it on an external sling, and then - goodbye to stealth.

In other words, the Americans managed to change the role of VTOL aircraft, shifting them from pure attack aircraft to albeit ambiguous, but still multifunctional fighters. It should be said that the USSR managed to do this even earlier - the Yak-141 VTOL aircraft in a number of performance characteristics (of course, not all) reached the level of the contemporary MiG-29 and could quite successfully conduct air battles with the same F/A-18 and F-16.


Of course, due to the need to carry additional equipment to ensure vertical takeoff and landing, neither the Yak-141 nor the F-35B could match the capabilities of horizontal takeoff and landing aircraft. Thus, the Yak-141 was equipped with as many as three engines, two of which were needed only for takeoff and landing operations, and the F-35B had to spend space in the fuselage for a powerful fan.

F-35B vs F-35A


Let's see what the designers had to sacrifice to provide a conventional aircraft with VTOL capability. To do this, let's compare the performance characteristics of two maximally similar aircraft, created at the same technological level and designed to solve similar problems. Namely, the F-35A, made according to the classical scheme, and the VTOL F-35B. The data on their performance characteristics differ somewhat in Russian-language sources, I took the most accessible ones.


The result, as they say, is obvious. The F-35B is heavier, but carries one and a half times less payload. At the same time, there is a strong suspicion that the data, so to speak, is slightly embellished in favor of the F-35B. The point is this.

As you know, the F-35B is not exactly a VTOL aircraft, it is a short takeoff and vertical landing aircraft. As you can see from the table above, the F-35A carries 37% more fuel than the F-35B. But for some reason, its range is only 33% greater. This could only be possible if the F-35B were more fuel efficient.

Meanwhile, it is obvious that during landing operations, when the F-35B lands vertically, its engine operates at full power, and fuel consumption should be greater than that of the F-35A. Therefore, I have an assumption that the flight range of 1 km for the F-670B is indicated for the case when it takes off and lands horizontally, that is, like a normal aircraft.

Even if I'm wrong, the stated flight range is only achieved with a short takeoff rather than a vertical takeoff. And with what payload can the F-35B take off vertically?

I didn’t find any precise data on this matter, but let’s look at the domestic Yak-141.


As you can see, the Yak-141's payload was reduced by almost one and a half times when replacing short takeoff with vertical takeoff. Assuming that the ratio will be similar for the F-35B, we will come to the conclusion that VTOL aircraft with vertical takeoff will carry only 36% of the payload (fuel, weapons) of what an equivalent horizontal takeoff and landing multi-role fighter can lift!

In fact, even with such a load, a VTOL aircraft can solve some combat tasks, but only a few. For example, a pair of our Yak-141s, located on the deck of a Kiev-class heavy aircraft carrier, could perform a quick, emergency vertical takeoff to intercept air targets in the immediate vicinity of the formation – and then the rest of the Yaks would follow, taking off with a short run and a full supply of fuel. Or, say, the same F-35B, standing at the “jump airfield” on the beachhead where the landing force has landed, could also urgently take off and drop a couple of small bombs on the enemy in the immediate vicinity of its location.

This is quite clear, but it is also obvious that relying on tactics in which VTOL aircraft will take off vertically, rather than with a short takeoff run, is completely counterproductive. In this case, we will simply turn the VTOL aircraft into a “mainmast defense aircraft” with extremely limited combat effectiveness.

Deck for VTOL aircraft


In view of the above, creating aircraft carriers, like the Project 1123 anti-submarine cruisers, that do not have a flight deck of sufficient size to ensure the shortened takeoff of a VTOL aircraft, would be akin to a state crime.


If we suddenly want to create a multi-role VTOL fighter for the fleet, then we will have to worry about suitable ships for it.

Of course, VTOL aircraft can be placed on universal landing ships, which are currently being built according to Project 23900. But why?

Aircraft carriers from the UDC project 23900 (Ivan Rogov type) are frankly worthless. The main task of the landing ship is, oddly enough, the transportation and landing of troops, and the Ivan Rogov is capable of delivering up to 1 marines with 000 units of equipment to the landing site. The ship naturally has the necessary premises for them, in addition, a lot of space is taken up by the dock chamber, which accommodates up to 75 landing craft.

Naturally, these people and equipment must be supplied with everything necessary, including, but not limited to, food, fuel and ammunition. And not for a short battle, but for long-term intensive combat operations. It is not surprising that all this takes up a lot of space on the ship, and there is regrettably little space left for everything else.

For example, there was no room for a powerful power plant on the Ivan Rogov, which is why the maximum speed of the Project 23900 UDC does not exceed 22 knots. Consequently, a formation created on its basis will obviously lose speed - frigates, large anti-submarine ships and other ships will have to adapt to the slow flagship. At the same time, the Rogov's air group is frankly small - up to 20 helicopters. That is, using it as an aircraft carrier, we can count on 12 VTOL aircraft, 3-4 AWACS helicopters, 1-2 rescue helicopters and 2-3 ASW helicopters.

At the same time, the standard displacement of the ship is 30 tons. A specially built aircraft carrier, even a small one, will be superior to a UDC in all respects as a sea airfield. Thus, the Indian Vikrant has a standard displacement of 000 tons. But at the same time, its speed is 39 knots, and it is capable of basing a full-fledged air regiment of multi-role fighters (000 Rafale-M) and 30 helicopters.


The Japanese, creating their "helicopter-carrying destroyers" Izumo with an eye on basing the F-35B, built ships with a continuous flight deck 248 m long and 38 m wide. But at the same time, their speed reaches 30 knots, and the standard displacement is only 19 tons. Despite the fact that in terms of the composition of the air group, Izumo and Ivan Rogov are, if not equivalent, then comparable.

Short takeoff is the death knell for VTOL aircraft


If we want naval aviation to use VTOL aircraft to their full 100% potential, then we need to build aircraft carriers with a continuous flight deck along the entire length of the ship, that is, similar to classic aircraft carriers.

But if so, why not create a ship of approximately the same size and equip it with a ski-jump and arresting gear so that it could provide a base for horizontal take-off and landing aircraft?

Perhaps it is not worth landing heavy fighters on such an aircraft carrier, but something like a "maritime" version of the Su-75 "Checkmate" would fit quite well. Well, there are no heavy fighters among the VTOL aircraft either.

Perhaps the Su-75 will not be able to take off from a ski-jump with maximum takeoff weight, but so what? If we make a VTOL aircraft based on it, then such a VTOL aircraft will lose one and a half times in payload weight, as happened with the F-35B relative to the F-35A. And the fact that a VTOL aircraft based on the Su-75 will be able to take off “in full combat mode” will not result in any gain in combat radius, patrol time, etc. compared to a regular Su-75 – no matter what the loss.

Yes, an aircraft carrier without catapults will not be able to provide basing for AWACS aircraft. Well, VTOL carriers are even more incapable of doing this. At the same time, in terms of construction costs, the difference between a ship capable of basing a Su-75 regiment and a ship capable of receiving a VTOL regiment based on the Shakhmat will be minimal. But creating a carrier-based version of the Su-75 is generally not difficult, especially since we already have extensive experience in "navalizing" the Su-27 and MiG-29. And creating a VTOL aircraft is a huge financial outlay that, alas, will never pay for itself.

VTOL aircraft – there are more disadvantages than advantages


The whole point is that the number of VTOL aircraft in the armed forces will never be large. The Aerospace Forces simply do not need them in any form, which, by the way, we can clearly see in the example of the same USA. The American Air Force is not at all eager to acquire the F-35B, and the reasons are quite clear.

Firstly, the F-35B’s payload is one and a half times smaller than that of the F-35A.

Secondly, the cost. No matter how you look at it, the F-35A is almost a quarter cheaper. It doesn’t seem like much, but for the money needed to purchase three F-35B regiments, you can buy four F-35A regiments – of course, without taking into account operating costs, but still.

And thirdly, it is impossible to ignore the fact that, despite all the scientific and technological progress of recent decades, vertical takeoff and landing remains a complex aviation stunt, the implementation of which greatly affects the safety of VTOL aircraft compared to horizontal takeoff and landing aircraft.


VTOL aircraft have never been a model of reliability and, alas, are not one now. I will not recall the "formidable Yak flies in the sky", I will take the "kosher" aircraft of the "enlightened West". So, for example, out of 81 Sea Harriers received by the British armed forces, 27 were lost for non-combat reasons. Out of 30 Sea Harriers transferred to India, 12 were lost for the same reasons. The Americans pointed out that in 2003 the number of incidents with the AV-8 Harrier II per 10 flight hours was five times higher than the same indicator for other aircraft.

It is too early to talk about the F-35B accident rate, but it should be noted that out of 11 F-35 crashes that have occurred from 2018 to the present, F-35Bs account for six, or 54,5%. And this is despite the fact that the share of F-35B production in the total production of Lightnings is about 20%. It is obvious that the accident rate of American vertical-lifters is many times higher than that of the F-35A and F-35C, and is actually in the same accident range (4,8 times higher than conventional aircraft) as the Harrier.

Prospects for VTOL aircraft in the Russian Armed Forces


Today, the Russian Federation's military space forces are in a severe crisis. They lack specialized radio-technical reconnaissance (RTR) aircraft, EW and AWACS, and much more. All of these are priority needs, and until they are met, spending money on developing and producing small series of VTOL aircraft and the AWACS helicopters needed for them is not just irrational – it is criminal.

The same applies to the fleet. What does the Russian Navy lack... The latest minesweepers, equipped with modern systems to combat the mine threat, and reconnaissance aircraft, and anti-submarine aircraft, and modern helicopters, and ships to protect the OVR, as well as corvettes, frigates, multi-purpose submarines, modern non-nuclear submarines - none of this is available at all, or is not available in sufficient quantities. And what about modern mine weapons, torpedoes, anti-torpedoes, decoys, and underwater situation lighting?

Against the background of the total shortage of the fleet of all of the above and many other equally important things, funding for the design and construction programs of VTOL aircraft, AWACS helicopters and carrier ships for them will be a feast during the plague. Until the safety of the near sea zone from underwater, surface and air threats is restored, until we are ready to ensure the unimpeded withdrawal of our submarines from their bases, until the fleet receives a sufficient number of modern patrol aircraft and helicopters to detect enemy submarines, at least in the adjacent seas, etc., etc., it is clearly premature to talk about the development of the fleet's deck aviation.

The VTOL concept itself is undoubtedly interesting. Over the years, VTOL aircraft have evolved from pure attack aircraft to multi-role fighters of sorts, albeit with significant limitations. But it is important to understand that VTOL aircraft were and remain highly specialized aircraft, and it makes sense to work on them only when all other problems have been solved at an acceptable level. It would certainly be a good idea to have 4-6 VTOL aircraft on the deck of the Ivan Rogov, which is going to land troops: as a last line of defense against enemy aircraft and to support the marines. Of course, the ability of VTOL aircraft to operate from improvised airfields, including in mountainous terrain, could prove decisive in a number of tactical situations.

But spending serious money on creating VTOL aircraft in conditions when the armed forces are clearly short of multi-role fighters, when their operations are not supported by AWACS, ELINT and EW aircraft, when the fleet does not have any modern patrol aircraft, etc., is completely counterproductive. It is necessary to first satisfy basic needs and only then move on to secondary and specific ones.

On the future of Russian carrier-based aviation


Of course, if we are ever going to return Russia to the ranks of first-class naval powers, we will need aircraft carriers. And it would be a shame to lose the experience that the Russian Navy gained by operating the only heavy aircraft carrier in its composition, the Admiral Kuznetsov, even if it was largely negative. And experience in building large combat ships is not gained so quickly either. Experience in providing basing and repairs is also important.

To understand all this, it is enough to look at the national disaster that the two newest British aircraft carriers have become. It seems that England was the mistress of the seas not so long ago, it seems that the British built large aircraft carriers, and operated small ones only recently, and even used them in combat. But the period of downtime in the creation of large aircraft carriers led to the loss of continuity in design, construction and operation, and the result? The Queen Elizabeth and the Prince of Wales "now go out, now go out": all the time some kind of breakdowns, force majeure and downtime.

In order not to end up in the same mess the British have found themselves in today, it makes sense to build an aircraft carrier to replace our only heavy aircraft carrier. Given the time it takes to design and build it, it will probably be ready for service in about 15 years, that is, just in time for the Admiral Kuznetsov to be on the verge of exhaustion.

It is important to understand that the main task of a prospective aircraft carrier is not some kind of unparalleled combat power in the world, but the role of a "training desk" for industry and pilots of carrier-based aviation. Industry must be able to build, the fleet and naval aviation - to operate, and ship repair - to provide the necessary repairs in the shortest possible time, for the full growth of the operational tension coefficient (OTC) and the maximization of combat effectiveness. If a big mess happens, then the aircraft carrier, based in the North, will be able to supplement the forces available in the theater, covering the deployment of the same "Yasen-M" from enemy patrol aviation. In the conditions of the dominance of NATO naval aviation, it will, of course, not live long, but it will do its job.

"Nimitz" is not needed for these purposes. A relatively small, nuclear (since large non-nuclear power plants are somehow not working out well here) aircraft carrier, capable of providing basing and effective use of 18-24 "sea-going" Su-75, and 6-10 helicopters of various purposes for them, will be enough.

It is quite possible to fit such a ship into approximately 45 tons of standard displacement, providing space on it for the placement of an electromagnetic catapult during future modernization. Of course, ideally we would like a heavy aircraft carrier with a displacement of 000 tons with 75-000 catapults and the ability to base 3 heavy fighters, AWACS aircraft, etc. But in the absence of stamped paper, it is quite acceptable to write on plain paper.


This 45-ton aircraft carrier will cost the fleet no more than two Project 23900 UDCs, which are currently being built in the Black Sea. And it is unlikely to significantly exceed the price of a pair of non-nuclear VTOL carriers like the Japanese Izumo, which together will be able to provide basing for a similarly-sized air group. It will significantly increase our capabilities in the North, but at the same time will not require increasing the fleet's budget from the current level and will not force us to spend huge amounts of money on developing VTOL aircraft and creating production facilities for its production.

Thus, if we, giving priority to the primary tasks of the fleet, still find money for the development of carrier-based aviation of the Russian Navy, then it is more promising and cheaper to develop it not through VTOL aircraft, but through classic carrier-based horizontal takeoff and landing aviation.

The funds saved on developing VTOL aircraft and AWACS helicopters would be better spent on creating something important, something that would bring undoubted benefits to the Russian armed forces. For example, a “people’s” AWACS aircraft, an analogue of the American “Advanced Hawkeye”, which could become the “workhorse” of the Aerospace Forces and the Navy. And let its capabilities be more modest than those of the giants A-100 “Premier” currently being developed. But the price will be significantly lower, which means the number of aircraft transferred to the armed forces will be greater.

Then our air warriors of the Aerospace Forces and naval aviation will receive support from "flying radars" (which are also excellent radio-technical reconnaissance aircraft) on a permanent basis, and not on major holidays, as today. And in the bright future, which may certainly come, such an aircraft can be adapted to the deck.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +31
    1 October 2024 05: 50
    There is no future for Russian carrier-based aviation, because there are no "decks" themselves. There are projects, beautiful pictures and models and that's all!
    1. +12
      1 October 2024 10: 18
      We should not dream about aircraft carriers, but about a country that can afford them from a technical and financial point of view. About a country that will need these very aircraft carriers for business and not for show, like the French or the British. Like, it's a matter of honor to have a big ship with a bunch of aircraft.
      1. AAK
        +10
        1 October 2024 11: 04
        In order for an aircraft carrier to "plow the open spaces..." it must first be built. There is not a single shipyard with such competences in the Russian Federation, Nikolaev will either be released or not (and if they do, then there will be years of restoration first, and if they do build something, "Drugerdogan" will not let a normal aircraft carrier through the Bosphorus, we will have to churn out a heavy aircraft carrier again), and "brothers forever" or "disco dancers" will not sell us ships of their own construction.
        The author’s proposal to build a submarine with a displacement of 30-35 thousand tons also seems incorrect for the following reasons:
        - the author himself speaks of the "inferiority" of the aircraft fleet without AWACS, ASW and EW aircraft, but 35 of the 2 types named cannot be based on a 3-ton aircraft;
        - any good popular book about aircraft carriers always provides tables on the relationship of such important indicators as the magnitude of the roll and flooding of the flight deck depending on the displacement and dimensions of the aircraft carrier, but on the Northern Fleet or Pacific Fleet, the storm conditions are not at all like on the Black Sea Fleet, and a 35-thousander can be at sea for no more than 5-7 months a year, depending on the weather.
        1. AAK
          +4
          1 October 2024 11: 07
          The only reasonable replacement is an AV-ship with specialized UAVs (AEW, EW, strike, ASW, with ASS - we need to think about it), but these same UAVs have not only not been lying around in projects, but not even in concepts...
        2. +3
          1 October 2024 12: 03
          Quote: AAK
          There is not a single SSC with similar competencies in the Russian Federation

          The North can. Vikramaditya was made.
          Quote: AAK
          The author’s proposal to build a submarine with a displacement of 30-35 thousand tons also seems incorrect.

          Actually 45 thousand, but who's counting them for you...
          Quote: AAK
          Well, on the Northern Fleet or the Pacific Fleet, the storm conditions are not at all like on the Black Sea Fleet, and a 35-ton vessel will be able to stay at sea for no more than 5-7 months a year, depending on the weather.

          This issue was resolved back in the USSR - heavy aircraft carriers from the north left for the Mediterranean Sea in such weather.
          1. 0
            Today, 15: 42
            Good day Andrey! hi As I understand it, it was my concept that was being opposed, so I will try to answer in detail.
            First, goal setting - why does Russia need a Navy?
            For beauty? To protect their bases and, if possible, territorial waters and a special economic zone? Well, for this, FSB patrolmen and some corvettes will be more than enough. They won't protect, but they will identify themselves and will even be able to proudly call themselves a "fleet".
            No. The Russian fleet is needed to protect maritime borders (this is a platitude) and the Interests of the State. And what kind of state do we have?
            Correct - capitalistic.
            This means that it is controlled by capitalists and is guided by THEIR interests.
            What are their interests?
            That's right - EXPORT. And while it was peaceful and sanctions weren't piled on us, they exported from their ports by rented ships on freight or by customer/buyer's own pickup. While it was PEACEFUL. But it's over, there's a Cold War (for now) with the West and a hot one in Ukraine. Exporters are currently solving the issue by creating their own Shadow Fleet, but it won't last long and it's unreliable, because the confrontation with the West is growing. And their own Merchant Fleet is being built - a huge Merchant Fleet of huge ocean-going vessels. Because we export oil, gas, coal, ferrous metal in pigs and the simplest rolled products, fertilizers, grain and ... well, and we import highly processed goods - consumer and simply finished. That is, we also need some container ships. All of this is already being built or has already been purchased. It sails the seas and oceans and REALLY needs to ensure the safety of its own shipping! For once the bourgeoisie needed the Navy in DM and OZ at all the nodal points of sea traffic.
            And he is NOT there.
            Something is being built, Soviet-built large anti-submarine ships are being modernized, they promise to put the Nakhimov on the road in November. Possibly together with the Kuznetsov. But that is not enough.
            That is why a new shipbuilding program for the Russian Navy is being urgently drawn up, a Marine Board has been established and Patrushev is heading it and the entire shipbuilding industry (curator). And his son is the Ministry of Industry and Trade, which will build all this (and everything else). The task has been set - to build the Fleet in an emergency mode, "so that not a single slipway is idle, and deadlines are met." And the issue is not at all about money - the state has plenty of money, the bourgeoisie has even more, they took what they could from Western banks and assets and returned it home ... they are looking for applications. It was decided to build two new super-shipyards, and two more, supposedly military, but so far without details. Therefore, it is necessary to build the Ocean Fleet of Russia, it is necessary for its owners, and it is in the interests of the state. Because the budget is filled by 50+ percent from the export of hydrocarbons and energy resources in general (there is also coal). Well, 30 - 32% is from the VAT that you and I pay.
            And the deployed groups of the Russian Navy need to ensure combat stability. And first of all - from anti-ship missiles during WWI. And not when they emerge over the horizon (distance 12-15 km, for an elevated radar complex of a large ship up to 25 km). And only deck aviation from an aircraft carrier can do this. And now we can talk about what kind of aircraft carrier it should be, how many of them we should have and what fighters to base on them.
            To be continued ...
          2. 0
            Today, 18: 03
            What kind of aircraft do we need in DM and OZ, how many and what kind of aircraft are on them?
            Since we need an ocean fleet right tomorrow (actually yesterday, but this is a belated realization by the owners of Russia), it is necessary to build it right now - DM and OZ frigates, destroyers (the size of the late "Arleigh Burke" will be enough) and ... those same aircraft carriers.
            First - how much.
            Without false modesty and feigned stinginess - 8-12 pcs.
            Light! In VI 45 tons. And yes - with hulls and a project based on the UDCs already under construction. EM catapults are in principle possible, the Chinese are already planning on using them for the Type-000 under construction, but not for the AWACS and U aircraft, but for their future (and already close) VTOL aircraft. To take off from a catapult with a full load, with full tanks, and land vertically. And this is really the optimum.
            And we won't have a carrier-based AWACS aircraft until the second coming of the reptilians, although I am all for a "People's AWACS aircraft" a la "Hawkeye". We simply don't have a suitable turboprop engine for this. We need at least an AI-20 (in Soviet times, its latest modification produced 5500 hp), not to mention the unavailability of the magnificent D-27 (created for the An-70 and Yak-44) with a capacity of 13 hp, with which the Yak-880 could take off fully loaded even from the Kuznetsov ski-jump. We have NOTHING AT ALL for such an aircraft. Therefore, it is not even worth discussing.
            What kind of aircraft are on deck? Regular ones with catapult and arresting gear or VTOL aircraft?
            A classic aircraft carrier is a very complex ship. Very! And not only because of its rich and specific architecture, but because of these very same catapults and arresting gear. We will build something like this for a long time, painfully, with flaws, not everywhere and ... we will hardly build it at all. But we need at least 6 aircraft carriers, and at the optimum - 8-12 units.
            Why are the numbers so big?
            And if there are less, then there will be almost no sense from them at all.
            We need "light" air defense aircraft - to repel air attacks, isolate the service/patrol area from AWACS, anti-submarine warfare aircraft and enemy combat aircraft. Strike functions can be applied as an option or as a specialization of the second squadron of the air wing.
            But the icebreaker for VTOL is not at all as difficult to build and operate... almost like the same UDC. And the UDC in terms of complexity was compared with civilian ships. That is, at almost all of our large shipyards we will be able to build such ships almost simultaneously! In St. Petersburg (where icebreakers are currently being built), in Crimea at "Zaliv", in "Bolshoy Kamen" and even in the north, if we build a corresponding shipyard there, because the one that is building submarines and will always build them, and the SRZ - a repair plant - will be able to repair and modernize the icebreaker, but to build ... a shipyard is needed.
            The VTOL aircraft carrier will also be very inexpensive - one and a half times more expensive than a UDC of similar size, it’s just that the internal layout will change. That is, around 1,2 - 1,5 billion dollars at the current exchange rate.
            8 such AVs will cost a maximum of 1,5 x 8 = 12 billion dollars to purchase. Or the same as one or one and a half super class AVs.
            12 such AVs will cost no more than $18 billion.
            Yes, for them, purchasing escort ships will be more expensive. So, 4 conventional frigates of project 22350M (VI 8000 tons) will cost 4 x 750 million = 3 billion dollars.
            Which is also quite inexpensive.
            What engines should be installed on such an AB?
            Four M-90FR GTUs with a capacity of 27 hp each. These are now installed as afterburners on Project 500. And no gearbox - only electric propulsion - a dynamo for each turbine and powered through a single onboard substation. At the same time, there is an excess of electricity on the ship, even if you install an EM catapult. And no more difficult than on any icebreaker or tanker.
            Hangar decks - two - for aircraft and helicopters separately. And one more for workshops and spare parts. 24 VTOL aircraft (two squadrons), 4-8 anti-submarine helicopters, 4 AWACS helicopters, 2 PSS helicopters, 4-8 landing. Additional supplies, fuel, food and consumables for the AUG on a tanker and a comprehensive supply ship as part of the AUG.
            More about VTOL aircraft below.
          3. 0
            Today, 19: 06
            VTOL aircraft.
            First, we need to understand that even the Yak-41 was very good as a carrier-based air defense fighter. In terms of flight characteristics, it matched the F-18, and in terms of combat capabilities, the early MiG-29. And this is a VTOL aircraft from the late 80s.
            It is also good to remember that the F-35B was made for the Americans by the Yakovlev Design Bureau, and quite officially. And now the Yakovlev Design Bureau is making VTOL aircraft for our Army and Navy.
            Why for the Army too?
            Yes, because initially VTOL aircraft were ordered not for ships (in the 50s), but for takeoff from runways and taxiways shortened by bombing. The Su-24 was originally ordered exactly like this - a short takeoff and landing aircraft with 4 vertical thrust engines. The MiG-23 with a delta wing and one vertical thrust engine behind the cockpit was also demonstrated at air parades - it took off very dashingly. Therefore, after the Yak-41 was developed, an order was immediately received for the development of the next one - the Yak-201, which was supposed to come to the Frontline Aviation for service at frontline airfields and hidden sites. Well, and on decks too.
            While peacetime was corrupting the minds of the nobles, it was possible to build a Small Army and the Aerospace Forces on a small number of heavy fighters. It was enough for parades. In war, it is different. In the event of a serious conflict, the first strike is on airfields and their runways. And the ability to take off vertically or with a very short run in such conditions is worth a lot. So VTOL aircraft will find a lot of tasks and work on the ground. And on the decks of light aircraft carriers VI 45 - 000 tons, and on the decks of the so-called "mobilization aircraft" (Iran is currently building similar ones), there are many places where you can find them. If only there were a good VTOL aircraft.
            And with an engine like the R-579V-300 it can be simply very good.
            Therefore, the Navy and Aerospace Forces will need hundreds of VTOL aircraft. Not dozens, as many claim. Only for the entire fleet of aircraft, taking into account the spare ones, at least 300 of these aircraft are required. And about the same for the Aerospace Forces, because war is not parades and biathlons, but this is a very good instrument of war in difficult conditions.
            The airframe for such a VTOL aircraft can be taken as a basis from the Su-75, only larger. Because the engine with a thrust of 23 - 000 kgf. in afterburner both allows and obliges the dimensions and weights of the F-24B+.
            I think that such VTOL aircraft will also have export potential. And an aircraft built in large series is much easier to service, maintain, repair, and modernize.
            I think we will see our own VTOL aircraft somewhere at the turn of this and the next decade.
            In order to quickly and correctly build a balanced Fleet, it can only be built this way. And note that such AVs will cost us half as much as one Arleigh Burke costs the Americans.
            War of resources?
            War of attrition?
            Why not ? hi
        3. 0
          1 October 2024 15: 27
          Never mind, Kuzya felt fine in the north, and he's a 45er.
          And yes, we can fit in AWACS if we want, if we have a catapult.
          1. +1
            1 October 2024 18: 09
            Quote: Devil13
            Kuzya felt fine in the north, but he is a 45 thousander.

            Kuznetsov's normal intravascular venous pressure is more than 50 kt, and his full intravascular venous pressure is more than 60 kt...
      2. -4
        1 October 2024 11: 23
        Why this useless conversation? Yak-41 is a demonstrator and never was and never will be a combat aircraft. If you add up the weight of an empty aircraft and the weight of a full tank, you get more than the maximum weight for vertical takeoff.
        11650 + 4400 >15800
        And no weapons. Why a fighter on an aircraft carrier? To protect the carrier of attack aircraft or bombers. But there are none, there is no such modification of the Yak-41. This is a PR stunt.
        The combat radius is significantly less than 200 km.
        The aircraft carries two blanks for vertical takeoff and landing and also requires jet control, the channels and devices of which take up additional space.
        Stop repeating the nonsense of Soviet political scientists and their fairy tales. The Yak-41 is not even close to the Harrier!
        This is a demonstrator for testing, but how much money was wasted?
        1. +6
          1 October 2024 12: 06
          Quote: Vitov
          If you add up the weight of an empty aircraft and the weight of a full load of internal tanks, you get more than the maximum weight for vertical takeoff.

          The same is true for the Harrier.
          Quote: Vitov
          And no weapons.

          If the R-27/R-77 and R-60 say "no weapons" to you, then the entire USSR IA flew unarmed
          Quote: Vitov
          The combat radius is significantly less than 200 km.

          Much more. Generally, up to 900 was indicated, although this is fantasy.
          Quote: Vitov
          Stop repeating the nonsense of Soviet political scientists and their fairy tales. The Yak-41 is not even close to the Harrier!

          To refute this "nonsense", it would be nice to operate with facts that you do not have at all.
          1. -3
            1 October 2024 12: 52
            Why a fighter on an aircraft carrier? To protect the carrier of attack aircraft or bombers. But there are none, there is no such modification of the Yak-41.

            There is NO concept of using "a fighter flying around a ship's mast for beauty"! Why is it needed? We still need to get to the facts...
            1. +4
              1 October 2024 17: 28
              Quote: Vitov
              We still need to get to the facts...

              Well then go... for the facts:))))
  3. +2
    1 October 2024 05: 51
    An interesting article, one author writes about the benefits, another already presents his point of view as about harm. It would be interesting to hear the continuation of the article dialogue, which could, so to speak, deepen this topic. But as for our checkmate, the future is still very vague, there is nothing even heard about the model, and the dates of the first flight are still postponed.
    1. +12
      1 October 2024 05: 56
      Well, this author writes on his own topic, and another one writes about everything, so think about which of them is on topic.
      1. -3
        1 October 2024 05: 58
        Well then this article will close the topic.
        1. +2
          1 October 2024 08: 26
          Why, we can continue.
          To justify that long takeoffs are bad, that engines with variable thrust vector/nozzle are appearing that facilitate short takeoffs, that technology is not standing still and that engines will soon become economical without losing (significant) power (or even nuclear ones will be completely improved), and there will also be the development of computers, and the result
          The characteristics of the VVTOLs will approach those of conventional ones, the accident rate will decrease - and now the question arises as to which is better, conventional ones or vertical ones.
          And yes, this is a question for the near future, 25-50 years, but work needs to be done now....
          1. +2
            1 October 2024 08: 30
            Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
            The characteristics of the SVTOL aircraft will approach those of conventional aircraft, and the accident rate will decrease.
            Due to their clumsiness and complexity of design - they will never come close. But drones, in my opinion, will have a great future...
            1. +3
              1 October 2024 08: 38
              Well, a drone can also be launched/landed vertically
              (Do you want to land the plane quickly? - ask me how. Air defense calculation).
              Everything flows, everything changes, and what was previously complex, voluminous and bulky becomes small and compact.
              To turn the steering wheel on a sailboat - three sailors with their weight. Then a slight movement of the hands. Instead of a half-kilometer turn - tens of meters due to hydrometes.
              Computers that were the size of a house now fit in a backpack - and their computing power is orders of magnitude higher
              1. +2
                1 October 2024 08: 46
                Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                Well, a drone can also be launched/landed vertically
                It is possible. But this will be a machine completely devoid of equipment for life support and pilot safety, therefore, a machine capable of more serious maneuvers, a machine taking on board less fuel and also consuming it less. Well, safety can be neglected somewhere and in something, for example, duplication of some systems...
                1. +3
                  1 October 2024 11: 47
                  Dear colleague, I didn't quite understand.
                  There is a regular plane, it takes off from the runway
                  There is a vertical, it takes off from a patch, but it consumes more fuel. Since the vertical consumes more fuel, it is smaller in the air (and will also take less load).
                  There is a UAV that takes off like an airplane, and due to the absence of a pilot, it can perform more abrupt maneuvers.
                  There is a vertical UAV, also capable of doing cool maneuvers. But since it takes off from a place, it consumes more fuel...
                  In other words, in a long-vertical confrontation (whether piloted or unmanned), the vertical will consume more fuel and take on less load)
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 21: 37
                    the vertical will consume more fuel and take less load

                    But if you make a tailsitter capable of both an airplane and a tailsitter, unlike the fu35 there is no parasitic weight (propeller) in the belly, start with a drone and increase the size from one production model to another, first propellers, then jets, these can even replace some types of helicopters, like in the video - Red Bull built a quadcopter faster than a Formula 1 car
                    https://vk.com/video-118496898_456240123
          2. +4
            1 October 2024 08: 48
            Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
            Justify that long takeoffs are bad, that engines with variable thrust vector/nozzle are appearing, facilitating short takeoffs

            Excuse me, how is that possible?:))))) And a short takeoff performed by a horizontal takeoff aircraft is already possible.
            Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
            and soon engines will become economical without losing (significant) power

            This is not a question of engine efficiency, but a question of the physics of takeoff - for vertical takeoff, much greater efforts must be applied than for horizontal, because in the first case the wing is ballast, and in the second - a source of lift. And more work - more fuel consumption, there is no way around it, until a perpetual motion machine is invented
            1. 0
              1 October 2024 11: 26
              Excuse me, how is that?:))))) And a short takeoff performed by a horizontal takeoff aircraft is already possible
              That the takeoff of a mountain plane can become shorter and shorter (or not?)
              This is not a question of engine efficiency, but a question of the physics of takeoff - for vertical takeoff, much greater efforts must be applied than for horizontal, because in the first case the wing is ballast, and in the second - a source of lift. And more work - more fuel consumption, there is no way around it, until a perpetual motion machine is invented

              That is, if tomorrow a compact and safe nuclear engine (or some other crap engine) appears, thanks to which the Su35 or F35 can fly without refueling for 30 days, and the VTOL aircraft, well, 20 days (and the pilot will generally work 365/1), will the VTOL aircraft still remain a mainmast aircraft?
              1. +2
                1 October 2024 12: 16
                Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                That the takeoff of a mountain plane can become shorter and shorter (or not?)

                Of course - here everything comes down to the thrust-to-weight ratio, and it is growing.
                Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                That is, if tomorrow a compact and safe nuclear engine (or some other crap engine) appears, thanks to which the Su35 or F35 can fly without refueling for 30 days

                That, provided its reliability and cost are acceptable, will be a revolution in aviation, which will require a revision of all concepts. Most likely, after this, the division into horizontal takeoff aircraft and VTOL aircraft will disappear altogether.
                But there is one nuance. Such revolutions do not happen out of nowhere, they do not jump out of a snuffbox. They are the result of long-term scientific work, and they are infinitely far from us than those you indicated.
                Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                a question for the near future for 25-50 years

                It makes sense to create aircraft for such an engine no earlier than the probability of this engine appearing in the next 7-8 years and only when its approximate performance characteristics become clear. And doing what you propose is about the same as trying to create an aircraft for jet engines at the level of biplanes-shelves at the beginning of the 0th century. You can spend time and money, but there will be no effect, since by the time the jet engine appears, the same materials science and so on will have gone far ahead.
                1. +1
                  1 October 2024 15: 35
                  Thank you.
                  In principle, there was enough for two articles (Roman’s and yours).
                  I pointed out the prospects of the SVVP (which Roman could appeal to), Andrey tore apart the main points, and as for the rest - he's far from it
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 17: 29
                    Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
                    Thank you.

                    Thank you too, it was nice talking to you!
        2. +4
          1 October 2024 10: 03
          Quote from turembo
          Well then this article will close the topic.

          This topic will never be closed, because it excites minds too much and gives rise to fantasies...
          And Andrey gets an absolute plus for the article. good . I read it with great pleasure and agree with all the Author’s arguments.
          1. +5
            1 October 2024 12: 18
            Thank you very much for your kind words! drinks
    2. +2
      1 October 2024 08: 26
      Quote from turembo
      But as for our checkmate, the future is still very unclear, there is not even anything heard about the layout.

      Well, how come you can't hear it? It was demonstrated at full blast. And the prototype - yes, it is being assembled.
    3. +2
      1 October 2024 09: 57
      Skomorokhov presents the idea of ​​VTOL aircraft as an option for creating carrier-based aviation for Russia, based on the assumption that we will decide to build an aircraft carrier! But at least some carrier-based aviation is still needed. Therefore, Skomorokhov suggests creating an aircraft for those ships that are already being built. Because having at least some aircraft is better than none at all.
      Andrey, in principle, expressed a sound view on the development of carrier-based aviation and his arguments in favor of normal aircraft carriers and normal aircraft are convincing, but his concept of the development of carrier-based aviation is based on the fact that the command has definitely decided that Russia will have aircraft carriers and, as an option for preparing for the creation of the future aircraft carrier fleet of Russia, to take the first step and create an aircraft carrier and aircraft for it.
      Both authors are probably trying to convince the command that the benefits of carrier-based aviation are undeniable and each offers their own budget option for its creation, while the fleet has no time for it! That's the whole question: why doesn't the fleet have time for carrier-based aviation?
      Then you can understand which option is more realistic to implement.
    4. 0
      Today, 20: 00
      Quote from turembo
      But as for our checkmate, the future is still very unclear, there is no longer even any news about the model, and the dates for the first flight are still being postponed.

      The fog is only due to secrecy during the war. And the deadlines are being postponed exclusively "to the left" - i.e. the project is ahead of schedule, the first takeoff is promised in December of this year. And they originally planned for next year.
  4. +1
    1 October 2024 06: 03
    As a result, two launched Exocet missiles hit the Atlantic Conveyor
    After which, a small scandal occurred behind the scenes at the British and French Foreign Ministries, under a thick carpet, and France stopped supplying both the Exocets themselves and everything necessary for them.
    1. +2
      1 October 2024 08: 07
      The French immediately stopped delivering their anti-ship missiles as soon as European countries imposed sanctions against Argentina. They managed to deliver only 5-7 units. They didn't even deliver a simulator to train pilots to use the Exocet, they wrote that it was a rather complicated process. But the Argentines managed to do without it.
  5. -1
    1 October 2024 06: 27
    This family of aircraft, let's say, albeit limited, is still suitable for air combat.

    What air combat? A hundred kilometers away. Or is the author advocating for super-maneuverability? Well, it is not needed, stealth characteristics and the ability to take off and land from a short runway are more important. And vertical takeoff and landing is even more relevant. Why waste labor resources on an engine with a variable thrust vector, when the Americans make engines with a variable thrust vector only in the vertical plane with a rectangular nozzle, which kills two birds with one stone - short takeoff and landing, as well as the ability to reduce the EPR.
    1. +2
      1 October 2024 07: 27
      "If you want to ruin a country, give it (create) an aircraft carrier with vertical takeoff aircraft." At present, this is a completely irrelevant topic for our country, because with the presence of underwater and surface back-up aircraft, missiles and swarms of drones, an aircraft carrier is a mass grave, so our country should direct its main efforts to the development of unmanned and missile systems, nuclear submarines and modern coastal ships, and then watch how technology develops and follow in the vanguard of their development and deployment.
      1. +2
        1 October 2024 07: 30
        If you want to leave the country without aviation, spend half a century developing a variable thrust vector engine for super maneuverability that no one needs.
      2. +11
        1 October 2024 07: 36
        Quote: vasyliy1
        At present, this is a completely irrelevant topic for our country, because with the presence of underwater and surface back-up aircraft, missiles and swarms of drones, an aircraft carrier is a mass grave.

        Neither an aircraft carrier nor any other ship. The successes of the BEK are our sloppiness and inability to organize control of the near sea zone, which, by the way, is discussed a little in the article
        1. -4
          1 October 2024 13: 44
          Andrey, how do you see the role of aircraft carriers in the future? Today, their advantage is undeniable in the fight for supremacy at sea and in supporting landing operations, and there is even potential as a strategic weapon in the destruction of economic potential.
          And what is the role tomorrow? For example, in gaining supremacy at sea? Today, the aircraft is a platform for AWACS aircraft in the ocean, and given that the main means of destruction is anti-ship missiles, with which aircraft have a clear advantage in the radius of destruction of targets above ships. But tomorrow, hypersonic missiles will nullify the range of anti-ship missiles (firing range of thousands of kilometers), and most importantly, hypersonics also give an advantage in the speed of hitting targets, plus the difficulty of evading hypersonic missiles makes the aircraft a rather vulnerable target. As the question arose today that penny UAVs easily destroy tanks worth millions, it will not turn out that a fleet of frigates capable of fighting off air attacks and equipped with hypersonic anti-ship missiles will be a more effective force at sea than the aircraft?
          This also applies to AWACS aircraft, a large non-maneuverable target illuminated for hundreds of kilometers due to its radar will be hit by stealth fighters with hypersonic missiles capable of quickly hitting targets hundreds of kilometers away. It is likely that instead of AWACS aircraft a network of UAVs will be created that emits and processes signals, such an AWACS network will be difficult to destroy.
          In theory, in the future, the role of carrier-based aviation can really be reduced only to supporting the landing force, because the FAB500 with the UMPK is in any case better than the kamikaze UAV. And then Skomorokhov's idea of ​​a fleet of VTOL aircraft turns out to be more promising than building obsolete aircraft carriers?
          And for the use of air-launched hypersonic missiles far from the coast, a long-range bomber might be more effective as a less vulnerable target compared to an aircraft carrier.
          How do you see the future?
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 15: 13
            Quote: Eroma
            Andrey, how do you see the role of aircraft carriers in the future?

            An aircraft carrier in the future is primarily a means of reconnaissance, situational awareness. Its main tool here is AWACS and ELINT aircraft. Manned, unmanned - it doesn't matter. In order for them to be able to operate, it is necessary to ensure air superiority, and multifunctional fighters can allow this. But the strike functions are already in question
            Air superiority also ensures submarine operations; otherwise, it is impossible to counteract very effective patrol aircraft.
            Quote: Eroma
            As the question arose today that penny-dollar UAVs can easily destroy tanks worth millions, it turns out that a fleet of frigates capable of fighting off air attacks and equipped with hypersonic anti-ship missiles will be a more effective force at sea than aircraft?

            Firstly, someone has to give these frigates target designation, and who? Satellites? So far, such satellites are extremely expensive and no one has been able to deploy the corresponding group.
            Secondly, in all cases of correct use of aviation, it suppresses land or sea air defense systems. That is, there are no prerequisites to hope that frigates will be able to protect themselves from air attacks on their own.
            In my opinion, aircraft carriers will only go into decline when the combat radius of land-based aviation becomes so large that a sea airfield becomes unnecessary.
            1. -1
              1 October 2024 16: 29
              In the future, an aircraft carrier will primarily be a means of reconnaissance and situational awareness.

              That is, the role of aircraft carriers changes from the main strike force to an auxiliary one. It turns out that huge strike aircraft carriers should leave the stage and ships of moderate displacement will go to sea? Since a large group of fighters is not needed, because if the aircraft is detected, it will be sunk almost instantly (the flight time of hypersonic aircraft is minutes). It is more advantageous to have several small aircraft than one large one in this situation.
              Gaining air superiority becomes the main task; without it, target control for long-range missile carriers becomes impossible!
              1. +3
                1 October 2024 18: 58
                Quote: Eroma
                from the main striking force to the auxiliary

                Why auxiliary? Is air superiority an auxiliary task? Rather, aircraft carriers will move from Western ideology (strike aircraft carrier) to Soviet (air defense aircraft carrier).
                1. 0
                  1 October 2024 20: 41
                  Because the main goal is to destroy the enemy, and air defense is protection.
                  In general, progress in missile weapons greatly changes the rules of the game.
                  The best means of detecting NK is a radar located on an aircraft, conditionally an AWACS aircraft. It is capable of detecting a ship at the edge of the radio horizon, probably about 500 km away, the ship's radar also sees the AWACS, but it has nothing to shoot down. Only a fighter can really shoot down an AWACS, and if there are none, then the AWACS calmly transmits the targeting instructions to, for example, carrier-based aviation in real time, and those anti-ship missiles from invisibility shoot at the enemy fleet. As a result, the aircraft carrier rules and so it was until today! Today, the S500 is being adopted for service, an air defense system capable of hitting targets at a distance of 500 km +, and in this case, the ship and the AWACS detect each other at a distance of 500 km and the ship stupidly shoots down the AWACS with the help of the S500, there is no targeting instructions for carrier-based aviation! And if there is a AWACS helicopter on the ship, which circles above the formation and its task is to search for low-flying targets at a distance of 100-159 km, then the deck aviation is in trouble! tongue
                  The aircraft carrier is no longer in control, it is the missile ships that are in control, capable of destroying any target almost instantly with the help of hypersonic anti-ship missiles, having received the target designation from anyone
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 21: 14
                    And if we develop the idea, then the fleet of the future is a network-centric complex, where the main ship is a missile ship, the gentleman's set of which is a long-range SAM and hypersonic anti-ship missiles, as well as a helicopter for the tasks of anti-aircraft and AWACS against low-flying targets. The eyes of the fleet are long-range stealth drones, possibly even capable of rising into the stratosphere and identifying targets using optics. Data exchange will go through satellites like Starlink and, by the way, in this case, "mining" huge spaces with the help of UAVs becomes a reality. UAVs can not only attack, but also issue targeting instructions.
                    Floating airfields for UAVs will definitely be needed, but they can be located a thousand miles from the theater of operations, launching UAVs and unmanned tankers to refuel drones in the air. Replenishment of anti-ship missiles can be entrusted to various civilian vessels operating without a crew.
                    And here the question arises, what role will carrier-based fighters play in this system? And are they needed to gain supremacy at sea? And from here the question follows, are full-fledged aircraft carriers needed?
                    1. +2
                      1 October 2024 21: 41
                      Quote: Eroma
                      And here the question arises: what role will carrier-based fighters play in this system?

                      In the world of the future, where strike, reconnaissance and electronic warfare tasks are successfully performed by UAVs, they will also take on the functions of carrier-based fighter-interceptors.
                      Quote: Eroma
                      And are they necessary to gain dominance at sea?

                      Definitely to prevent other people's UAVs from getting into trouble.
                      Quote: Eroma
                      And this begs the question: are full-fledged aircraft carriers needed?

                      There will be a need for a lot of UAVs, a lot, and with a range of 1000+ km and optimal speed, these will be fairly large machines that also need to be serviced and repaired, which means the ship will no longer be small for them. Unless the automation of service processes completely eliminates humans from the ship's personnel, but that is a very distant future.
                      But for now, everything is the same - aviation is stronger, which means an aircraft carrier is stronger than any missile ship, and maybe even several.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 22: 15
                        These will be fairly large machines that also need to be serviced and repaired, which means the ship will no longer be small for them.

                        It is quite possible that this could be a vessel the size of a container ship, with not just a repair shop on board, but also 3D printers, and the ship could simply print new UAVs to replace the lost ones, and such a factory-aircraft carrier would be located in the rear of the fleet and spam drones! wink
                        They will take over the functions of carrier-based fighter-interceptors.

                        The presence of a pilot on board aircraft will depend on the development of data transmission systems; if a conditional Starlink provides interference-free high-speed data transmission, then a pilot will not be needed in theory.
                        And again the question arises: why spend money on real aircraft carriers?
                        Maybe a VTOL aircraft is really a more promising machine? An aircraft is irreplaceable for supporting a landing force and a person on board is definitely needed there, it would also be enough to fight UAVs, and if we manage to set up aerial refueling from, for example, unmanned tankers, they will also cope with aviation.
                      2. +2
                        1 October 2024 22: 24
                        Quote: Eroma
                        Maybe a VTOL aircraft is really a more promising vehicle?

                        Well, the author has chewed everything up and put it in your mouth. It is not clear how else to explain that a VTOL aircraft is an overly complex and narrow-purpose device, which is inferior to its standard-design counterparts in almost everything. Even in cost, so the issue should be closed, at least for us, at least for a while.
                        We have experience operating normal carrier-based fighters, we have an aircraft carrier, why reinvent the wheel?
                      3. 0
                        1 October 2024 23: 26
                        Thanks for the conversation, but I'll still answer in the end:
                        With the further development of missile weapons and alternative AWACS means of control, in the form of a combination of satellites and UAVs, the main problem becomes not the capabilities of the aircraft, but the vulnerability of the carrier, i.e. the aircraft carrier!
                        Today, an aircraft carrier is invulnerable to surface ships, even knowing its coordinates, NK have no way to attack it, this is the strength of aircraft carriers. But when hypersonic anti-ship missiles neutralize the range of aviation (1500 km, for example), then the aircraft carrier will become too vulnerable a target. And then the ability of VTOL aircraft to disperse among relatively small ships becomes an undeniable advantage, and high fuel consumption can be neutralized with the help of UAV tankers, from which VTOL aircraft can refuel during patrols, and such tankers can be based on a rear barge a couple of thousand miles from the combat area. Because it makes no difference to the UAV how many hours it flies to the patrol area, and for the pilot the difference is very sensitive.
                  2. +1
                    1 October 2024 21: 31
                    Quote: Eroma
                    and the ship simply shoots down the AWACS with the help of the S500, there is still no control center for deck aviation!

                    the same Hawkeye will be able to direct a strike air group and then leave. If we focus on the S-400, the SAM will fly 500 km. about 4 minutes, during which time the Hawkeye at maximum speed will be able to leave for 40 km. And if there are several false targets nearby, then it is not at all obvious what will be shot down. But the anti-ship missiles have already left in the direction of the ship formation.................
                    Quote: Eroma
                    they are controlled by missile ships that are capable of destroying any target almost instantly using hypersonic anti-ship missiles, having received a target designation from anyone

                    That's the point, it won't happen instantly. Missile ships don't rule yet, and when missiles reach greater capabilities, by that time UAVs with AI will again gain the upper hand over surface missile ships.
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2024 21: 46
                      the same Hawkeye will be able to direct a strike air group and then leave

                      This is a highly debatable question, I think he won't be able to do anything. It's probably harder to spot a Steos frigate among the waves than a flying barge against the sky, so it's more likely that the frigate will have an advantage. And he'll launch the SAMs when the Hawkeye no longer has a chance to escape.
                      And in 4 minutes the planes will not be able to reach the attack line; for this they would already have to be 200 km from the frigate, which is not realistic.
                      For now, rocket ships are in charge, but when

                      I'm not talking about today, today aircraft carriers are still kings, I'm talking about tomorrow, in about 20 years.
                      1. +1
                        1 October 2024 21: 57
                        Quote: Eroma
                        for this they must already be 200 km from the frigate, this is not realistic.

                        Of course it is not realistic, because there is no need. LRASM flies more than 900 km.
                        Quote: Eroma
                        And in 4 minutes the planes will not be able to reach the attack line

                        The main thing is to detect the KUG and provide target designation, and then the anti-ship missiles will leave and the air group will go for a breakaway. Time is tight, but there is some. Besides, are you sure that all ships will have S-500s?
                      2. 0
                        1 October 2024 22: 07
                        LRASM flies more than 900 km

                        This is a subsonic missile, without a constant targeting control it will not fly anywhere! In 1,5 hours that the missile will fly, the frigate will already be tens of kilometers away.
                        Also, are you sure that all ships will have S-500s?

                        Starting from the frigate and above 100%. All American destroyers have missiles to combat ballistic missiles, we will have the same.
                      3. +1
                        1 October 2024 22: 17
                        Quote: Eroma
                        This is a subsonic missile, without a constant target control it won't fly anywhere.

                        Who has the largest space constellation?
                        Who has the largest number of long-range reconnaissance UAVs?
                        Who spends colossal amounts of money on the development of unmanned surface and submarine ships?
                        So there is a high probability that there will be someone to guide it. And not necessarily from 900 km, but from the same 550 km, and this is only 39 minutes, during which time the ship at maximum speed will be able to move only 35 km. For a subsonic missile with a colossal range reserve, such a distance will not be an insoluble problem.
                        Besides everything else, we have forgotten about electronic warfare systems, and their air groups have also been working on them for decades, placing big bets on such systems.
                      4. 0
                        1 October 2024 22: 24
                        I answered you somewhere that we are talking about the fleet of the future, in about 20 years. The probability that the Russian fleet will be similar to what I described is in the form of hope, because the logic of the development of modern weapons shows exactly this path and we already have key technologies, these are hypersonic anti-ship missiles and long-range air defense systems, but everything else is missing and is developing somehow, to put it mildly, with big questions.
                        But the US Navy already has almost everything except hypersonic anti-ship missiles, but they are close to creating them and the probability that in 20 years they will correspond to what is described is very high, and after them we can assume that the Chinese Navy will be the same, because China stupidly copies everything, whether they need it or not, and then we’ll figure out what to leave as we go.
                      5. +2
                        1 October 2024 22: 27
                        Quote: Eroma
                        I answered you somewhere that we are talking about the fleet of the future, in 20 years.

                        The future is being forged right now, I don’t remember who wrote it.
                        It was nice talking to you. Good luck.
                  3. 0
                    1 October 2024 23: 26
                    Quote: Eroma
                    Today, the S500 is being put into service, a SAM system capable of hitting targets at a distance of 500 km +, and in this case, the ship and the AWACS detect each other at a distance of 500 km and the ship simply shoots down the AWACS with the help of the S500, there is still no control center for deck aviation!

                    :))))) Firstly, for the S-500 you will need a very large missile cruiser, not a frigate. Secondly, even observing the Hawkeye, it is very difficult to shoot it down at a long distance. Long-range SAMs complicate the actions of AWACS, but do not solve the problem of countering them. Thirdly, SAMs do not fly 500 km:))))) For the S-500, 400 km is announced.
                    Quote: Eroma
                    And if there is a DRLO helicopter on the ship, which circles over the formation and its task is to search for low-flying targets at a distance of 100-159 km

                    then the air clearing group will take it down. And even if it doesn't, there's not much use in it - our SAMs haven't learned to shoot beyond the radio horizon yet
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2024 23: 38
                      Long-range SAMs complicate the actions of AWACS, but do not solve the problem of counteracting them. Thirdly,

                      Andrey, you are destroying all my fantasies. laughing
                      radio horizon ours haven't learned to fire SAMs yet

                      I think this will come soon, they will be able to do it soon.
    2. +3
      1 October 2024 08: 16
      Quote: Konnick
      What air battle?

      With Papuans sitting at the controls Farmanov и Bleriot...
    3. +1
      1 October 2024 08: 19
      As the author pointed out, the US made three planes - 2 conventional and 1 vertical, and for some reason the Air Force doesn't want the vertical...
      1. +3
        1 October 2024 08: 26
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        As the author pointed out, three aircraft were made in the USA - 2 conventional and 1 vertical
        One of the ones you specified Conventional planes, however, are not quite ordinary - this is F-35B, which has a short takeoff and vertical landing...
        1. +2
          1 October 2024 08: 30
          That's what I meant: 2 regular ones and one vertical one.
          F-
          35A for the Air Force, F-35C for their naval aviation and F-35B – VTOL aircraft for the Marine Corps.
      2. -1
        1 October 2024 09: 36
        As the author pointed out, three aircraft were made in the US - 2 conventional and 1 vertical, and for some reason the Air Force doesn't want the vertical

        They are not ordinary, but have shortened takeoff and landing.
        1. +2
          1 October 2024 11: 40
          Quote: Konnick
          They are not ordinary, but have shortened takeoff and landing.

          Almost all 4th generation fighters have approximately the same short takeoff/landing. Depends on the thrust-to-weight ratio
  6. -1
    1 October 2024 06: 32
    If a major skirmish occurs, the aircraft carrier, based in the North, will be able to supplement the forces available in the theater, covering the deployment of the same "Yasen-M" from enemy patrol aircraft. Under the conditions of NATO naval aviation dominance, it will, of course, not survive long, but it will do its job.

    How easily the author sends an aircraft carrier with its crew to the bottom, strategist. And that there is no way to protect Yaseni from patrol aircraft except by aircraft from an aircraft carrier. Or maybe it would be better to just have an air defense patrol ship?
    1. +9
      1 October 2024 07: 26
      Quote: Konnick
      How easily the author sends an aircraft carrier with its crew to the bottom, strategist.

      In the event of a war with the US, our fleet is doomed in any case. The only question is how much damage it can inflict in response
      Quote: Konnick
      Or maybe it would be better to just have an air defense patrol ship?

      In the Norwegian Sea?:))))) Are you going to sow it all with patrol ships? Or will you place them over Yasen so that the enemy knows the exact coordinates of the SSGN?
  7. 0
    1 October 2024 06: 41
    If someone does not know what VTOL aircraft are needed for, this is not a reason to declare their complete uselessness "in principle".
    Of course, no one in their right mind would argue about the superiority of classic 100-ton aircraft carriers, but if you want to urgently increase the aviation component of the fleet, and the construction of the above-mentioned has the potential to drag on for about 000 years, then the combination of VTOL aircraft (and both AWACS and ASW can be created on the basis of a convertiplane) and a platform from a serial container ship or other "Afromax" is very relevant and not at all harmful.
    1. 0
      1 October 2024 07: 18
      Afromaks can be re-equipped quickly. But pilots cannot be trained quickly. Because traditional ones cannot be retrained. And VTOL aircraft must be kept in reserve. Where and for whom? Only questions.
      1. +1
        1 October 2024 07: 28
        Quote: MCmaximus
        But you can't train pilots quickly.

        But you can't quickly train pilots for an aircraft carrier either
        Quote: MCmaximus
        And we need to have VTOL aircraft in reserve.

        Not in reserve but as part of a naval aviation unit
        1. 0
          1 October 2024 07: 37
          And we are looking to the future, and therefore we will not discount the possibility of an unmanned version.
        2. 0
          1 October 2024 15: 28
          There is almost no regular naval aviation here. Reconnaissance, anti-submarine... But VTOL aircraft are very much needed, well, yes.
    2. +1
      1 October 2024 07: 27
      Quote: mark1
      but if you want to urgently increase the aviation component of the fleet, and the construction of the above-mentioned has the prospect of dragging on for about 500 years, then a combination of VTOL aircraft (and both AWACS and ASW can be created on the basis of a convertiplane) and a platform from a serial container ship

      It is an equally long, equally expensive, but completely ineffective step.
      1. 0
        1 October 2024 07: 50
        Yes, I know the ways and methods of declaring something effective to be ineffective; it is enough to recall the recommendation to install an AU right in the middle of the flight deck, or the requirement to bring the design of a civilian ship to the standards of the Navy’s combat ships.
        1. +2
          1 October 2024 08: 02
          The reasons for the inefficiency of VTOL aircraft are set out in the article; there were no objections on the merits from you.
          1. -1
            1 October 2024 08: 38
            Well, yes, if you demand comparable characteristics in terms of range and combat potential from a VTOL aircraft with a classic aircraft, ignoring the nuances, then the article is devastating.
            1. +4
              1 October 2024 08: 42
              Quote: mark1
              Well, yes, if you demand from a VTOL aircraft comparable characteristics in range and combat potential with a classic aircraft

              I consider VTOL aircraft from the position of their ability to solve certain tasks. And I come to the conclusion that the range of tasks that they can solve is extremely limited and does not justify the costs of their creation for us. No counterarguments were heard from you
              Quote: mark1
              ignoring the nuances

              Which?:)))))
              1. -4
                1 October 2024 09: 03
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Which?:)))))

                that's what I'm saying -
                ignoring

                1. The Su-75 program may well replicate the F-35 and we will also receive a VTOL aircraft with characteristics more or less close to a classic aircraft for relatively little money.
                2. And the second was indicated right away, you just need to read it carefully.:)))
                1. +4
                  1 October 2024 09: 16
                  Quote: mark1
                  The Su-75 program may well replicate the F-35 and we will also get a VTOL aircraft for relatively little money

                  Is this your nuance?:))))))) I am telling you about the inability of VTOL aircraft to perform the tasks facing aviation, and you respond to me - "Yeah, right, we can design it cheaply!":)))))))
                  Excuse me, do you understand what you wrote?
                  I don't think so. You are apparently infinitely far from aviation.
                  The Su-75 program CANNOT follow the path of the JSF. Because the Su-75 is conceived as a light fighter on the 1st promising Su-57 engine with technologies mastered during the creation of the Su-57. Therefore, it is cheap, and it can be launched into series production relatively quickly (I think 7-8 years should be enough, and not one and a half to two decades, as for a new one).
                  If we try to mold a VTOL aircraft out of it, the program will become much more expensive and go to the right, but at the same time the Su-75's horizontal takeoff will be worse than it could be.
                  Quote: mark1
                  And the second one was pointed out immediately

                  In the absence of a clear argument, we make a mysterious face? Well, well. I will not solve your crosswords - given the blatant incompetence that you have just demonstrated by proposing to mold a VTOL aircraft from the Su-75 and thinking that it will be cheap and fast, I will not undertake to guess what kind of "dream of reason" (obvious to you, but absurd for an understanding person) you are hinting at
    3. +4
      1 October 2024 10: 17
      Quote: mark1
      Moreover, both AWACS and PLO can be created on the basis of a convertiplane

      The Americans have been fine-tuning their convertiplane (and a regular transport aircraft at that) for 35 years now, and the process continues... It's better not to even mention the cost of this miracle of engineering; a modern fighter is considerably cheaper... So I believe that the future AWACS/PLO will be ready by about 2075... wassat laughing
  8. +4
    1 October 2024 07: 06
    Excellent article. Everything is explained beautifully. The author is very optimistic about the future of the Russian fleet. Let's see how justified his optimism is. There is not much time left to wait.
    1. -2
      1 October 2024 07: 20
      Could you please clarify what exactly we don't have long to wait for?
  9. +2
    1 October 2024 07: 14
    Thanks for the article, Andrew!
    Here, unlike Roman’s articles, there is at least logical argumentation, and not just “I want it this way”!
    In my amateurish opinion, if you are preparing for a future war, then there is no point in talking about the North. In peacetime, the OVR is useless, since there is no way to destroy an enemy submarine, and with the start of hostilities on the enemy's side, the entire OVR system will be destroyed by the first and last blow. They actually have no other goals in the North, except for the destruction of our strategists and their protection.
    Now about the VTOL aircraft: this aircraft was needed yesterday, both at sea and on land. It is only necessary to understand its purpose. The main thing in it is not a record range or combat load, but omnipresence and efficiency.
    Here they spoke mockingly about the "foremast protection" aircraft, so I will note that at sea this task is the main one. The convoy should not be subject to a sudden attack, and a decent onboard radar of a VTOL aircraft can not only ensure the use of onboard weapons, but also issue timely target designation for the convoy's air defense. I will not argue about super-maneuverability, rather this is the lot of unmanned systems with AI, but the combat load must be adequate to the task being performed - air defense and anti-submarine warfare of the convoy, taking into account, again, the capabilities of the escort ships, and an attack on enemy ships is the lot of anti-ship missiles, again with timely detection. In short - the convoy must include aircraft for which any flat deck and container-modular service has both a table and a house.
    1. +3
      1 October 2024 07: 35
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Here they spoke mockingly about the "foremast guard" aircraft, but I will note that at sea this is the main task.

      And VTOL aircraft, unfortunately, do not solve it.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The convoy must not be subject to sudden attack.

      And it will be exposed, the VTOL aircraft on the deck will not have time to react. And there will not be enough payload for constant patrolling
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      In short, the convoy must include aviation.

      No. It is useless there without a specialized carrier ship. And such a ship is easier to build for conventional aircraft, which will also solve the tasks facing them more effectively.
      1. +2
        1 October 2024 07: 45
        Actually, during the exercises of the 80s, a pair of Yak-38s were in the air all the time (they prevented us from sleeping!), so the VTOL aircraft on the deck is cargo, and above the convoy - a short-range AWACS. If only the onboard radar was decent, or better yet - TWO radars for all-round visibility with operators on the ships, like on the modern Centry. And a special carrier ship for the VTOL aircraft is not needed, as well as for drones. Additional equipment is enough.
        1. +1
          1 October 2024 08: 05
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          In fact, during the exercises of the 80s, a pair of Yak-38s were in the air the whole time.

          If there is a heavy aircraft carrier:)))) Capable of providing such a trick. From there, ours usually took off not from a vertical but from a shortened one.
          1. +1
            1 October 2024 17: 54
            When I provided the Minsk and Novorossiysk KTU, they mostly took off and landed vertically, although they also took off from a run. There were no ramps back then.
            1. +1
              1 October 2024 18: 36
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              When I provided the KTU of Minsk and Novorossiysk, they mostly took off and landed vertically, although they also took off from a run.

              Well, there you go. In any case, you had a heavy aircraft carrier that could provide all this. And a heavy aircraft carrier the size of a light aircraft carrier.
              1. ada
                0
                Today, 02: 56
                Hello!
                You write interestingly, easily, I have a feeling that you have some kind of rare specialization for the Navy, which, however, does not make it worse to read, it gives the material originality, individuality. At least, that's what it seemed to me. I did not read this article, but looked at what "Viktor Leningradets" was writing and came across your conversation, I did not want to interrupt you, but the point that you and Viktor stopped at is the heavy aircraft carrier - it is key and touched my thoughts, so I decided to add my vision. Perhaps something will be useful.
                TAVKR. You have very accurately defined its significance as a carrier and from this it is worth considering the reality in this matter - from the ability of the platform to ensure the operation of the aviation component from it. I was in Nikolaev in the 80s, saw their construction, "Brezhnev" - "Kuznetsov" with some other re-facing of names, worked there with RKR, and then had to meet with TAVKRs. My subjective conclusion is this - a very complex ship to build and operate, and the system itself - a ship complex with an aviation unit is also unique. The production required for them is of the same order. We have neither one nor the other. By the beginning of the expected war, their production with the release of the complex, the country will not be able to increase. To form construction teams and build in a third country - an ally, is rather a hopeless fantasy. Therefore, the only correct option, if there is success with VTOL aircraft, is to adapt the existing floating craft, both military and suitable for the civilian fleet, to cut-down sets of the aviation unit. No VTOL aircraft - as many as we have time for existing types/models of naval aircraft. Quantity - based on the calculation of the need based on the condition of being out of action based on the probable ratio of losses in the first stage of the initial period of the war (planned). The probability of going through it without significant losses of such objects is low. In the initial period of the war, the restoration of damaged assets of this type will be expectedly impossible, but then there are various approaches to assessing the expected situation in subsequent periods (let's say - at the end of the second half of the war) and the possibilities for restoring the ECS and military facilities (stationary), etc. It is likely to assume the preservation/restoration of part of the capabilities of shipbuilding/repair capacities and the organization of the restoration of part of the naval forces on them. For such restoration, it is necessary to produce and lay in reserve with the placement on "DH" assembly kits of aircraft and other equipment of the aviation unit. Having the relevant documentation, information about the developed method of adapting floating craft and the experience of the preserved teams, the capacity of the specialized enterprise, it is possible to count on the restoration of part of the fleet in the following years of the war, including aircraft carriers, which is certainly very important in the conditions of the expected large-scale loss of communications, navigation, reconnaissance and surveillance.
                Probably, UAVs with capabilities for use in the maritime area based on the same or similar platforms will be required in comparable proportions. What vessels can be adapted/re-equipped for such aircraft-carrying platforms and what volume of re-equipment and retrofitting is required is quite within the capabilities of specialists to solve in a short time.
                1. ada
                  0
                  Today, 03: 11
                  The question of having time.
                  Yes, this is a question of questions. Here we had some analysis of probabilities, according to it there was a typical time calculation of periodicity and the most calculated time scale of pre-war and war times, but events forced all parties to deviate radically from the calculations. The parties, making every step, hurried to anticipate the other in the possibility of obtaining the most advantageous position, regardless of their readiness. What can now be put here as a time mark for the countdown? I would go back to the previously existing time scale and choose the appropriate one there without recalculating the entire period. Why? Because it is impossible to radically change all the existing planning of the NATO Joint Forces' military operations over the past couple of years, they are forced to rely on it until the very beginning of the BD and in the near future. Miracles do not happen. Even if a strong-willed decision of the US Supreme Command introduces a radical change in the dating for the near future, this will be immediately detected and determined by us, which will allow us to take appropriate measures, including protecting facilities, which should reduce the level of expected losses of the initial period. A, the enemy will still have to return to the basic elements of planning when using troops with the same indicators that they had mastered and prepared earlier. What timeframes can we talk about specifically? Yes, this is the turn of the current decade, which was difficult to hide before, they just didn’t believe in it. I also didn’t believe that there could be such a clumsy attempt to initiate the Belarusian factor in 2020, but then it immediately became clear that the mattresses realized their mistake in calculating the East/West balance of forces and they had no choice but to develop what they had previously initiated in Donbas in order to correct the situation. They needed a couple of years for this and they were still late. I believe that the General Staff specialists already have a probable time estimate of events, but in common parlance, one can also accept the one counted on one’s fingers based on the materials from the “box”. That is, there is little time, there is practically none, but it is quite possible to adapt a couple or more dry cargo ships to an air platform for a short military life. The absence of such events (not only those mentioned) may indicate a worse state of affairs.
                  Yes, about the most promising. Victor recently drew attention to the probability of orbital duty of bombers/missile carriers, this is indicative. That is, it is expected to assume that space forces will determine the appearance of the future aircraft carrier and most likely, its parameters will be significantly reduced, both in size and in the number of required aircraft and others. It is likely that a relatively larger number of them will be required with an acceptable decrease in their tactical properties. Perhaps then the TAVKR will become an AVKR, but with the preservation of full-fledged support for the functioning of the aircraft component, and its serial construction will not be a national feat and our fleet will receive an aircraft carrier platform in the required quantities at sea and an orbital multi-purpose group of communications, navigation, reconnaissance and target designation, as well as strike systems.
                  After all, war may not happen now, this happens periodically, although I am sure of the opposite.
                  hi
                  1. 0
                    Today, 19: 11
                    Quote: ada
                    You write interestingly, easily, I have a feeling that you have some kind of specialization that is rare for the Navy.

                    Absolutely right. "Economic and Social Planning", which is what I got my higher education in, you won't find in the navy at all:))))) I'm not a sailor, unfortunately, my eyesight didn't allow it.
                    Quote: ada
                    Therefore, the only correct option, if there is success with the VTOL aircraft, is to adapt existing watercraft, both military and suitable for the civilian fleet, to the reduced kits of the aviation unit.

                    I can't agree. And there are 2 reasons for that.
                    VTOL aircraft is a long story, if we start working on it now, we will get the first combat-ready aircraft in combat units, if only in 15 years. In such a time, it is quite possible to restore the ability to build large aircraft carriers (they are being restored little by little already - 23900)
                    Secondly, there is no point in designing VTOL aircraft without their specialized carriers - the fact is that based on "suitable floating craft" they will not solve any problems at all. Just as it is pointless to create conventional aviation without planning to build airfields, counting on some highways. Such means can still be considered as some kind of improvisation, but relying on improvisation for 15 years ahead is counterproductive
  10. +2
    1 October 2024 07: 25
    What VTOL aircraft, when with a simple IL-112 they flew like plywood over Paris. Personnel decide everything. But there are no personnel, continuity is lost, developments have leaked out. Start from scratch, I mean, from educating a design school. But to whom? These, effective managers from the state? Have mercy, it is not even worth starting.
  11. +3
    1 October 2024 07: 37
    Many thanks to the Author for an interesting and well-reasoned story.

    I would like to add that the antediluvian tactics of the Argentine Air Force were most likely explained by the fact that they had only 4 or 5 modern anti-ship missiles, which is why they used free-fall bombs. It is scary to think what would have happened if they had a couple of dozen Exocets. Perhaps the Falklands would be Malvinas today.

    Russia's carrier-based aviation is like a fifth wheel on a cart. We can't afford aircraft carriers with our current economy. Aircraft carriers are for developed countries.

    You have to be more modest. (c)
    1. +3
      1 October 2024 08: 23
      Quote: S.Z.
      I would like to add that the antediluvian tactics of the Argentine Air Force were most likely explained by the fact that they had only 4 or 5 modern anti-ship missiles.

      The Argentines used 5 air-launched anti-ship missiles. They had many Exocets in the naval version, but it is impossible to attach them to an aircraft. One was launched from land, hitting a British destroyer.
      It is usually stated that there were 6 air-launched missiles, but most likely this is a mistake, and there were exactly 5 of them.
      1. -2
        1 October 2024 10: 37
        The Argentines used 5 air-launched anti-ship missiles.

        Of which, not a single one hit a combat-ready warship.
        There is the same problem with the coastal launcher.
        1. +2
          1 October 2024 11: 38
          Quote from solar
          Of which, not a single one hit a combat-ready warship.

          Yes, if we consider that a ship is combat-ready only if it has not been hit by a missile:)))
        2. 0
          1 October 2024 12: 41
          Quote from solar
          The Argentines used 5 air-launched anti-ship missiles.

          Of which, not a single one hit a combat-ready warship.
          There is the same problem with the coastal launcher.


          And Sheffield?

          And what's the point in shooting at combat ships? Landing ships are the priority target.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 21: 41
            Sheffield was not in a combat ready state, did not expect an attack due to the weather - a gross mistake by its commander.
            At the same time as Sheffiel, an English frigate was attacked by a missile and easily avoided being hit by using decoys.
  12. -1
    1 October 2024 07: 47
    Quote: ASSAD1
    Could you please clarify what exactly we don't have long to wait for?

    What will happen to the Russian fleet?
  13. -6
    1 October 2024 08: 05
    The "penguin" modifications B and C have a maximum speed of 1450 km/h - for air combat, it is somehow not enough.
    1. -5
      1 October 2024 08: 11
      P.S. I wouldn't rush to call the Japanese stubs aircraft carriers. There's already been some discussion about this here. The air group turns out to be worthless, or rather no air group at all))
      1. +3
        1 October 2024 08: 27
        A dozen F-35Bs would fit on it, along with a few helicopters.
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Penguin modifications B and C have a maximum speed of 1450 km/h

        Where does this data come from?
        1. -3
          1 October 2024 09: 39
          A dozen will fit in it, if without helicopters. The diagram shows the placement of the aircraft rather roughly. "Gaps" are needed for the passage of the tug, you can't push the "penguin" manually. For it to remotely resemble an aircraft carrier, you need 2-3 AWACS helicopters, a couple of rescuers, a couple of anti-submarine submarines. A total of 6-7 helicopters is the bare minimum. They are almost the same size as the "penguin", if with folded blades, in a hangar. In total, either 8 "penguins" and six helicopters, or vice versa. The "Invincible", comparable in size to it, just accommodated 14 OA.
          The speed data is taken from Wikipedia, you can see it for yourself.
          1. -3
            1 October 2024 10: 12
            P.S. Moreover, I estimated the width of the "Merlin" or "Sea King" in the usual version. If you take the "Merlin" with an AWACS antenna, then this is another + 1,5 m of width. Accordingly, two AWACS helicopters + 3 m of width, three + 4,5 m. In general, such placement of the radar antenna is a masterpiece of both aerodynamics and common sense))) however, three engines working
            for one gearbox, also a masterpiece))) in the Soviet (Russian) Ka-31, the radar antenna does not protrude beyond the dimensions of the rotor (when folded).
            1. +2
              1 October 2024 10: 35
              Quote: TermNachTER
              A dozen will fit in it, without helicopters.

              Your calculations contain one key error - for some reason you measure the ship's air group by the size of its hangar. And usually far from the entire air group is placed there, about 50-70 percent.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              "Gaps" are needed for the passage of a towing vehicle; you can't push a "penguin" by hand.

              Look how the Americans rammed the Tomcats, which are actually heavier, and the Hornets are there too
              Quote: TermNachTER
              In general, this placement of the radar antenna is a masterpiece of both aerodynamics and common sense)))

              Quote: TermNachTER
              In the Soviet (Russian) Ka-31, the radar antenna does not protrude beyond the dimensions of the helicopter (when folded).

              Yeah. Only the Ka-31 can move at a speed of several dozen kilometers per hour when the helicopter is in operation, while the Briton can do so at its normal cruising speed.
              1. -1
                1 October 2024 10: 47
                Placing aircraft on the deck is temporary and not very good. That's why all the smart ones carry equipment in the hangar and lift it on the deck only for flights.
                You can tamp it as much as you like, but how then to service the equipment? Carry a 4 m long rocket weighing 600-700 kg in your hands? Tow a "penguin" (a helicopter) to an elevator?
                With such a "bulb" cruising speed? Why write such nonsense? There is such a science as aerodynamics, it says that this does not happen. Ka-31 flies with an open antenna only during operation, the rest of the time, it is folded. But the "Merlin" bulb sticks out all the time.
                1. +2
                  1 October 2024 11: 37
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Placing the aircraft on the deck is temporary and not very good

                  It's always like that.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  That's why all the smart ones transport equipment in a hangar and only lift it onto the deck for flights.

                  Only in your fantasies - in real life, those same Americans who have the most experience in AV do not act this way.
                  In fact, it is correct. In fact, regular aircraft are often parked in the open, and are only brought into the hangar for maintenance.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  With such "potatoes" cruising speed? Why write such nonsense?

                  Why should I write nonsense if you write it for two? The cruising speed of a regular Sea King is 219 km/h, the Sea King in the AWACS version is 204 km.
                  1. -2
                    1 October 2024 12: 43
                    1. Aircraft on deck, only for parades and shows. In a real situation, only what is going to take off or land is on deck.
                    2. Aircraft in a hangar is a standard for mattress carriers. And they stopped carrying aircraft on the deck back in the 20s of the last century, when they got aircraft carriers of normal size. The fact that the British carried aircraft on the deck is because they tried to increase the air group, at least by 6 aircraft. They even came up with such a stupid thing as an outrigger. No need to pass off your fantasies as the truth.
                    3. The Ka-31 has a cruising speed of 220 km/h. What you took from Wikipedia, that such a bulb does not affect the aerodynamics and centering of the aircraft at all, so you can write whatever you want, that the speed even increased. After all, the radar antenna does not weigh anything at all and does not affect the aerodynamics in any way)))
                    What are you proving with this? Not to mention that the speed of a helicopter, like any other aircraft, depends on many factors. When you fly against a wind of 60 km/h, the speed even increases, "Lockheed", which makes this radar, will not let you lie)))
                    1. +1
                      1 October 2024 13: 31
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      And they stopped carrying aircraft on deck back in the 20s of the last century, when they got normal-sized aircraft carriers.

                      Not only do you demonstrate complete unfamiliarity with the material, but you also do it with touching aplomb.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The fact that the British carried planes on the deck

                      Quite the opposite. It was the British who calculated the air group based on the hangar capacity. That's where the 36 planes on the WWII Illustrious come from, for example.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The aircraft on the deck is only for parades and shows. In a real situation, the only thing on the deck is what is going to take off or land.

                      You don't even understand that this in no way refutes what I am writing about. Yes, the planes in the hangar do not participate in combat sorties. They undergo maintenance, which takes 25-50 man-hours to provide 1 hour in the air. Therefore, during intensive combat work, some of the planes fight, some undergo maintenance in the hangar and they replace each other.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      There is no need to pass off your fantasies as truth.

                      No need to talk nonsense about things you don't know. They show you the Nimitz hangar from US technical literature, there are 32 aircraft there. It is common knowledge that in Desert Storm, 303 tactical aircraft flew from aircraft carriers, not counting electronic warfare, early warning and control systems, and helicopters. That's more than 50 aircraft per aircraft carrier (there were up to 6 of them).
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The Ka-31 has a cruising speed of 220 km/h.

                      With the radar folded. But when it works...
                      You have no idea what you're writing about. I'm surprised you even know the word "aerodynamics" if you think a helicopter with a rotating shaft under its belly can do 220 km/h...
                      1. -3
                        1 October 2024 14: 25
                        1. There is nothing to explain - it's a clinic.
                        2. Like the "Victories" - the British carried aircraft on the deck because there was no more room in the hangar.
                        3. I won't even refer to the American instructions. Anyone who has eyes can see that during takeoff and landing operations there is no free space on the deck to keep the aircraft there.
                        4. This is already a severe form of nonsense))) The Nimitz has a hangar for 32 aircraft, and the rest are on the deck?)))
                        5. Do you even know how to read? Or is a Chukchi not a reader, a Chukchi is a writer.
                        Cruising speed and operating speed are different things. Where did I write that the Ka-31 flies with its radar working at 220 km/h?
                      2. -1
                        1 October 2024 14: 50
                        P.S. Where are the aircraft on the deck? Did the commander hide them in his pocket?)))
                      3. 0
                        1 October 2024 15: 18
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Z.Y. Where is the LA on deck?

                        Where is the aircraft in the hangar?
                      4. 0
                        1 October 2024 15: 25
                        The photo was taken during construction or renovation.
                      5. 0
                        1 October 2024 15: 27
                        A killer argument))) I'm going to kill myself with my horns against the wall))) Post another photo of the Akagi hangar in 42)))
                      6. +1
                        1 October 2024 14: 58
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        This is already a severe form of nonsense))) The Nimitz has a hangar for 32 aircraft, and the rest are on the deck?)))

                        You are presented with a clipping from an American publication dedicated to the struggle for the survivability of an aircraft carrier in a hangar. Who do you think is right - the American professionals or you?
                        Well of course you laughing
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Cruising speed and operating speed are different things. Where did I write that the Ka-31 flies with its radar working at 220 km/h?

                        Don't get out of it:)))) The cruising speed of the Sea King is 204 km/h, and its radar CAN work at this speed. But the Ka-31 cannot. This is what I wrote and what you are trying to argue with
                      7. 0
                        1 October 2024 15: 09
                        Especially for writers, I quote myself)))) "The Ka-31 flies with its antenna open only during operation, the rest of the time it is folded. But the "Merlin" always has its bulb sticking out." Where is it written here that the Ka-31 operates at a speed of 220 km/h?
                        And where are the 60 sides on the deck of the "Ronald Reagan"? Just don't tell me that the commander drank))) Even the commander of a Soviet SSBN wouldn't drink that much)))
                      8. -1
                        1 October 2024 15: 20
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Especially for writers, I quote myself

                        I quote especially for those who are not responsible for their words
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        With such a "bulb" cruising speed? Why write such nonsense? There is such a science as aerodynamics, it says that this does not happen. Ka-31 flies with an open antenna only during operation, the rest of the time, it is folded. But the "Merlin" bulb sticks out all the time.

                        If Merlin always has a protruding bulb, then he achieves cruising speed with a protruding bulb:)))))
                      9. -1
                        1 October 2024 15: 24
                        Where are the 60 sides on the deck of the Reagan?
                      10. 0
                        1 October 2024 17: 55
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Where are the 60 sides on the deck of the Reagan?

                        Please don't try to sound more incompetent than you actually are. In this photo, the carrier could be sailing without any aircraft at all, since its air wing is based on land airfields outside of combat and training sorties.
                        The most interesting thing is that you didn't even have the intelligence to count the planes on the flight deck of the Nimitz-type aircraft carrier on the diagram I gave you. And on which there are significantly more than 32 planes, that is, more than can fit in the hangar:))))
                        Here is a photo with more than 40 aircraft on the deck.
                      11. 0
                        1 October 2024 19: 15
                        40 aircraft on deck - the aircraft carrier is engaged in takeoff and landing operations. There could have been more.
                        The photo was taken in Tokyo Bay, the Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier is on forward deployment, the entire air group is on board. So that you don't continue to "play the fool", I will explain "on my fingers". On the drawings that I saw. The Nimitz is 330 m long, the hangar length is about 2/3 of the hull, i.e. about 230 m + - meters. The width along the VL is 41 m, along the flight deck 78 m, we take about - 70 m. Total 230 x 70 m.
                        "Hornet" - length 17 m, width with folded wingtips 9,32 m. 90 aircraft fit without problems, maybe a little more)))
                      12. 0
                        1 October 2024 23: 18
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        USS Ronald Reagan forward deployed, full air group on board.

                        As I already said - only in your non-erotic fantasies. Read at your leisure the composition of the air wing of an American aircraft carrier in specialized literature
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So that you don’t continue to “play the fool”, I’ll explain it “on my fingers”.

                        You can't explain anything to me, for the simple reason that you have absolutely no idea what you're writing and live in a world of your own fantasies. You're not aware that the typical composition of an air group included at least 48-60 fighters and attack aircraft, not counting 4-5 AWACS, 4-5 EW and 6-10 helicopters. You're not aware of the modern typical composition with its 48 Hornets + the ability to base a squadron of marines + other things. The AB in Tokyo with your full air group... a face-palm.
                        There is nothing to talk about with you.
                      13. -1
                        1 October 2024 23: 30
                        The argumentation is at the level of a nursery group))) It would be better to write about guns and shells, there you at least have a general idea.
          2. 0
            1 October 2024 10: 47
            For helicopters they have Hyuga, Ise and destroyers.
            1. 0
              1 October 2024 10: 55
              The helicopters are needed to support the actions of the aircraft carrier itself. How many helicopters are there on the Japanese destroyers?
              1. 0
                1 October 2024 11: 07
                One as a rule. It will do for PLO.
                Create an AUS with the Hyuga type and load helicopters on it (except for a couple of PSS). And on Izumo - airplanes.
                1. -2
                  1 October 2024 12: 27
                  Why don't the Americans do this? They must be stupid. Their ASW AUG also provides MAPL.
  14. +1
    1 October 2024 08: 42
    On the scale of priorities for the fleet, manned carrier-based aviation in the current conditions is apparently in last place.
    1. +1
      1 October 2024 08: 51
      Quote: S. Viktorovich
      apparently in last place

      Well, definitely not the first one, that's true.
  15. BAI
    +4
    1 October 2024 08: 48
    For how beautiful and effective Harrier looks in True Lies with Schwarzenegger
  16. -2
    1 October 2024 09: 39
    Reflections on the well-known.
    All this costs a lot of money. No gigantic sea trade means no strong fleet means no planes.
    And so, in general:
    a) A weakened naval aircraft is better than none at all.
    b) even land-based aircraft with a full load fly much, much closer than those with a light load.
    c) they wrote - even some helicopters try to take off with a run. Strong and fuel and resource savings.


    If there is no sensible fleet, then what kind of VTOL aircraft are there?
    Modernization of existing ones for a shorter or longer flight radius may well be sufficient.
    1. +1
      1 October 2024 11: 31
      Quote: Max1995
      a) A weakened naval aircraft is better than none at all.

      That is, let's not buy a normal plane for cheap, but rather buy a weakened one for a lot of money.
      Quote: Max1995
      b) even land-based aircraft with a full load fly much, much closer than those with a light load.

      Maximum range is achieved with maximum fuel reserve and minimum other load. VTOL aircraft cannot take off vertically, not to mention with additional outboards, or even with a full fuel reserve in the internal tanks. What are we even talking about?:)))
      1. -3
        1 October 2024 13: 45
        a) But there is no normal price.
        even read about WW2 here - sailors flew \on what was usually not quoted on land. Moreover, there are only a few aircraft carriers, that is, there is no one to organize battles for air supremacy, that is, essentially - attack aircraft or universal ones are needed.
        their F, ours is Yak, English Har is just close

        2) exactly so. People are not fools, they chose the possibility of some planes landing vertically, even if empty.
        and on land the situation is similar - either range or load.
        Therefore, in the USA, as was written here, the fleet is already using small UAV tankers.
        1. 0
          1 October 2024 18: 25
          Quote: Max1995
          But there is no normal price.

          Where did it go?:))))
          Quote: Max1995
          even if you read about WW2 here, the sailors flew things that weren't usually considered acceptable on land.

          The British land forces flew the Hurricane, and the sailors flew the Sea Hurricane. The land forces flew the Spitfire, and the sailors flew the Seafire. The Germans adapted the Messerschmitts for their aircraft carriers. The Italians also didn't bother with creating a special carrier-based aircraft.
          In fact, the issue was not that deck-based ships were not valued on land, but that the requirements of sailors and land-based people were different. Hence the difference in design.
          Quote: Max1995
          Moreover, there are only a few aircraft carriers

          You are, of course, a communist, but fear God:))))) The Americans alone had 110 of them in WWII.
          Quote: Max1995
          that is, there is no one to organize battles for air supremacy

          It's strange that the confrontation on the Pacific Ocean passed you by
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 20: 06
            This is where the difference in design comes from.

            that too. But from the articles here, the impression is that the fighters were inferior to the land-based ones, and the bombers and torpedo bombers were old stuff, even biplanes.

            The Americans alone had 110 of them in WWII.

            what was, is gone
            And now NATO AUGs won't fight for air with 2-3 (I think) Chinese ones. And in the 90s there was no one at all.
            IMHO
  17. -2
    1 October 2024 09: 49
    If we take a sober look at the future of the Russian Navy, with optimism and in the hope of improving the overall situation in the country, then we can assume that the most optimal large ship will be similar to the Japanese helicopter destroyers.
    To aim for something bigger and at the same time on a massive scale is to deceive ourselves.
    In this case, an analogue of the F 35B would make sense. But not as the last line of air defense, but as the first. More fuel. Less weapons. And a couple of drones to control.
    But if you roll out your lip, there are 6 of these destroyers. Three for the Northern and Pacific. Four aircraft for each 4 units. Six training ones on the ground.
    30 pcs. And nowhere else. Well, okay, a small canned reserve to replace those lost in flight accidents. 30 percent of accidents, roughly, is another 10 pcs.
    Total 40 aircraft. The cost of developing such equipment will be enormous. The cost of 1 aircraft due to the high cost of development and the small batch of the required quantity will be enormous.
    Even if it is made as a version of the Su 75, the price will be huge. For a simple light interceptor.
    Is it worth the effort?
    1. +1
      1 October 2024 10: 37
      Quote: garri-lin
      The most optimal large ship would be similar to the Japanese helicopter carrier destroyers.
      To aim for something bigger and at the same time on a massive scale is to deceive ourselves.

      You are making a statement that is not based on anything.
      Quote: garri-lin
      But if you really think about it, there are 6 of these destroyers.

      What will be the price of three aircraft carriers with normal aircraft that will have much more capabilities?
      1. 0
        1 October 2024 10: 45
        An aircraft carrier is 100 tons. Anything less is not an aircraft carrier. And to my great regret, building 3 hulls of 100 tons is no longer a trivial task for today's Russia. Plus the filling. Starting with the catapult.
        So even in dreams, sturgeon should be cut down.
        1. +1
          1 October 2024 19: 41
          Quote: garri-lin
          An aircraft carrier is 100 tons. Anything less is not an aircraft carrier.

          Aircraft carriers of 50 kt. will quite normally carry an air group of 35-40 aircraft (including 24-30 fighters), this is many times more effective than any Japanese incomprehensible something with a dozen of insufficiently fighters of the VVP. It is clear that 100 kt. will be preferable in all senses, but if you soberly assess the possibilities, then it is much more realistic to have a trio of 50-thousanders than a trio of 25-30 kt. misunderstandings.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 20: 26
            50 thousand is something like De Gaulle???
            Will aircraft designers be able to create a compact AWACS? So that it can be based? I won't even mention deck-based I/B aircraft. They seem to exist.
            And what will he do??? Without
            Jokes. There is an aircraft carrier. With an escort. The Northern Fleet. What next?
            1. +1
              1 October 2024 21: 51
              Quote: garri-lin
              50 thousand is something like De Gaulle???

              De Gaulle is smaller, 42 kilotons full displacement, but even it can carry up to 36 Rafales and 3 Hawkeyes.
              Quote: garri-lin
              Will aircraft designers succeed in creating a compact AWACS?

              If you do it, then someday it will work out, if you don’t do it, then it won’t.
              Quote: garri-lin
              I’m silent about I/B decks.

              Why keep quiet? The SU-27KUB could have turned into a killer multi-role carrier-based fighter at one time, to the envy of the Americans. The developments remained.
              Quote: garri-lin
              There is an aircraft carrier. With an escort. The Northern Fleet. What next?

              To carry out assigned tasks. And the aircraft carrier group has many tasks.
              1. 0
                1 October 2024 22: 45
                Well, you compared a 24-ton and a 40-ton plane.
                And will Su be able to work normally with a 50-ton aircraft carrier?
                The ramp on Kuznetsov didn't help much. Combat load, fuel. The parachute catapult is a good thing, of course. But everything has its limits.
                An air defense aircraft carrier with AWACS and interceptors would be very useful for Russia. But there are many Buts.
                De Gaulle, for example, cannot launch and receive aircraft at the same time. Because of its size. De Gaulle is very limited in its presence on the BD. Maybe because of the design, or maybe it couldn't be made better.
              2. 0
                1 October 2024 23: 12
                Quote: FIR FIR
                De Gaulle is smaller, 42 kilotons full displacement, but even it can carry up to 36 Rafales and 3 Hawkeyes.

                Still - no. About 20 pieces - yes, maybe, but for 36 - too small.
                36 Su-33 would have towed Ulyanovsk if it had been built, but it is 75 Kt.
      2. 0
        1 October 2024 10: 48
        And regarding the groundlessness of the statements. What REAL tasks does the fleet have now?
        Near sea zone.
        Strategists on duty.
        The presence of artificial crabs in the world's oceans so that they don't forget about us and the media don't forget how it's done.
        There aren't enough resources for anything more.
        1. -1
          1 October 2024 11: 29
          Quote: garri-lin
          And regarding the groundlessness of the statements.

          You couldn't justify them, but you're trying to move the conversation to another area.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 11: 55
            Absolutely not. Russia does not have an adequate naval doctrine. There is no strategy for at least 15 years.
            And there hasn't been one for the last 20 years or more. All construction of the surface fleet is a swing from one extreme to another.
            But there are vital tasks. Vital for the country. Ensuring the operation of the SSBN. And this problem needs to be solved.
            All the dances of the USSR times with helicopter carriers were aimed at ensuring the safety of strategists on duty. Cheap and cheerful. And what is most important, it is enough.
            A destroyer-helicopter carrier similar to the Japanese one with an escort of 2-3 anti-submarine frigates would be quite capable of ensuring control of a zone with a radius of about 500 km.
            A couple of such groups in Bastion is already a guarantee that the strategist will have time to work.
            Well, just to dream. 2 VTOL interceptors, but specifically interceptors, 2 medium-range missiles, 4 short-range missiles. And all the rest of the payload capacity for fuel. But that's just for chasing Poseidons. And reconnaissance.
            But when it comes to airplanes, these are just thoughts of what ifs and what ifs.
            Their price will be sky-high. Because of the small batch.
            And this is the reasoning.
            So instead of 2 such destroyers there will be one full-fledged aircraft carrier. What will the admirals send it to do??? Will they do necessary things??? Or will they act out incomprehensible movements on the water surface like Kuznetsov???
            Too expensive?
            Unfortunately, the Russian Navy does not have and will not have any tasks for a full-fledged AUG in the near future. Imperial ambitions have come into conflict with reality.
            1. 0
              1 October 2024 12: 37
              Quote: garri-lin
              Russia does not have an adequate naval doctrine.

              The doctrine exists, but you declared it inadequate. Fine. I do not argue with this, you have every right to disagree with its provisions.
              Quote: garri-lin
              But there are vital tasks. Vital for the country. Ensuring the operation of the SSBN.

              Of course.
              Quote: garri-lin
              All the dances with helicopter carriers during the Soviet era were aimed at ensuring the safety of the strategists on duty

              You are completely wrong. All the dances with helicopter carriers were aimed at finding enemy strategists, not at covering ours. TAVKRs were considered ocean-zone ships and were used exactly as such. They could have been used in Bastions, but they were not designed for that.
              Quote: garri-lin
              A destroyer-helicopter carrier similar to the Japanese one with an escort of 2-3 anti-submarine frigates would be quite capable of ensuring control of a zone with a radius of about 500 km.

              It is not even close to being capable of such a feat. A pair of ASW helicopters can scan about 2000 sq. km per sortie (very optimistic), a heavy aircraft carrier can provide round-the-clock duty for one pair of helicopters at a distance of 200 km (patrol time is about 1,4 hours), that is, 17 paired sorties during which 34 sq. km will be scanned.
              The area of ​​the circle you described is "slightly" larger - 785 sq. km with some change.
              In fact, anti-submarine helicopter carriers are not needed at all in the near sea zone - their tasks are solved much faster and cheaper by patrol aircraft.
              Quote: garri-lin
              Unfortunately, the Russian Navy does not have and will not have any tasks for a full-fledged AUG in the near future.

              And who is talking about AUG?
              The aircraft carrier is needed to cover our forces searching for enemy submarines in the Barents Sea and to cover the deployment of SSGNs in the Norwegian Sea. That is, its main task is to combat enemy patrol aircraft + provide air cover for frigates at sea (Barents)
              1. 0
                1 October 2024 13: 00
                Sorry. I'll answer in short texts due to connection failures.
                The doctrine, that is, it is just detached from reality. Especially in the last couple of years.
                This is more of a wish than a real state of affairs.
                Technical and economic.
              2. +1
                1 October 2024 13: 18
                And what does the near sea zone have to do with it? The bastions are a bit further away. It is clear that they are within reach of coastal aviation. But in scaring off foreign submarines by helicopter there are no equals. To hang. To rinse the antenna. To call out your submarine de-ionizingly. Or at least to conduct exercises, warning the "military community" and dropping depth charges.
                It is clear that it will not be possible to constantly monitor the entire radius I indicated. But with continuous observation it is quite possible to have sufficient awareness.
                And AV will do the same thing. But it will be more expensive.
                1. -1
                  1 October 2024 14: 44
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  And what does the near sea zone have to do with it? The bastions are a little further away.

                  I agree, but even there the issue is resolved by patrol aviation. A helicopter carrier is not needed for this.
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  But when it comes to repelling foreign submarines, the helicopter has no equal.

                  In peacetime. And in wartime, you shouldn't scare them, but kill them to death:)
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  And AV will do the same thing.

                  It's not his job.
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 15: 43
                    Well, it's easier in wartime. Especially if strategists get to work.
                    If in peacetime the service was carried out as expected and the crew was trained, then it is easier to kill an enemy submarine than in peacetime to force it to leave the zone where it should not be.

                    AVs shouldn't be doing this. It turns out that full-fledged aircraft carriers and helicopter carriers don't intersect at all. Each has its own business.
                    A VTOL aircraft is either a helicopter carrier or a defective aircraft carrier.
                    A full-fledged aircraft carrier is a horizontal launcher and a catapult.
                    And there is a huge difference in price.
                    Helicopter carriers for anti-submarine warfare would be very useful for Russia. And they could, in principle, appear.
                    But I have a hard time believing in an aircraft carrier.
              3. 0
                1 October 2024 13: 29
                Well, there are no words. AV and AUG are almost the same thing. The only difference is in the load of the escort cells and the number of ships in this escort.
                If Russia had a full-fledged aircraft carrier in the Norwegian Sea, it would definitely be accompanied by an enemy escort. And the ships accompanying the aircraft carrier, no matter frigates or destroyers, would have to have "high anti-ship potential"
                Onyxes/zircons. And if the aircraft carrier's aircraft had to work on real targets, the escort ships would definitely have to hit the enemy ships. AUG, no matter how you look at it.
                1. -1
                  1 October 2024 14: 53
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  Well, there are no words here. AV and AUG are almost the same thing.

                  These are completely different things. AUG is a formation whose main striking force is strike aviation. Our AMGs were never conceived as such.
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  The only difference is in the load of escort cells and the number of ships in this escort.

                  the difference is in the aircraft carrier itself. In the AUG it is a strike aircraft carrier, and the AMG, based on the USSR model, is an air defense aircraft carrier. Accordingly, the AUG escort is primarily an airfield defense, since it is where the main striking power is. And the Soviet AMG is, forgive me for the bad words, a consumable, since it is not valuable in itself but as a means of providing the main striking force - MRA and SSGN
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 15: 53
                    Well, in many places the Union had a doctrine based on the principle of the "dead hand".
                    Either we live peacefully and quarrel a little, or the whole world will fall to pieces.
                    So almost the entire fleet was expendable. If I'm not mistaken, there was no reserve of missiles for strategists. Once they've fired, that's good.
                    An air defense aircraft carrier is good. But this whole structure was a little incomplete. There was no AWACS aircraft, and although it was supposedly planned in Ulyanovsk, even there it was impossible to say what would come out of the Yak-XX. And without AWACS, this air defense unit, even with foreign intelligence, lost 2/3 of its effectiveness.
                    And the anti-ship missile is somehow closer to the AUG than to the air defense.
  18. 0
    1 October 2024 09: 54
    The future is not in VTOL aircraft, but in super-heavy missile carriers. They have the B-21, we have the Izdeliye-80.

    An aircraft with a radar from an AWACS, missiles from an S-500, an electronic warfare station from a Krasukha-4 and a self-defense system equivalent to a battery of Pantsirs - that's the future. Such an aircraft is practically impossible to destroy. It can play the role of both a fighter and a missile-carrying bomber. And all these VTOL aircraft are from the evil one.

    Strictly speaking, the future of "light" aircraft is generally foggy and unclear. Wouldn't it be simpler to lift the AWACS on a balloon, and around it - stationary silos with 77-N6, which has a range, if my memory serves me right, of 570 km?

    In such conditions, fighters generally lose all relevance.
  19. +1
    1 October 2024 09: 55
    Author, first we need to understand the fleet strategy, tasks, goals. And without general phrases like, - protection of trade and other verbal nonsense, and only then determine what weapons are needed for this.
    1. -4
      1 October 2024 10: 39
      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
      Author, first you need to understand the fleet strategy, tasks, goals

      So who's stopping you? The concept of the Russian Navy, that is, the fundamental state document on this topic, is in the public domain. If you are not satisfied with it and want to come up with something of your own - no problem. But the author has long formed his vision of the fleet's tasks.
      1. +1
        1 October 2024 11: 21

        So who's stopping you? The concept of the Russian Navy, that is, the fundamental state document on this topic, is in the public domain. If you are not satisfied with it and want to come up with something of your own - no problem. But the author has long formed his vision of the fleet's tasks.


        Sorry, but it was you who published an article where you talk about weapons without saying anything about what tasks you are going to use these weapons for.
        Here are some questions for you.
        1. -1
          1 October 2024 12: 42
          Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
          Sorry, but it was you who published an article where you talk about weapons without saying anything about what tasks you are going to use them for.

          I won’t forgive, because, firstly, the article says it in plain English
          If a major skirmish occurs, the aircraft carrier, based in the North, will be able to supplement the forces available in the theater, covering the deployment of the same Yasen-M from enemy patrol aircraft.

          And secondly, the article is not a justification of the AV as a weapon. The article is about which aircraft are better to use AV if the use of AV will correspond to the tasks of the fleet.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 13: 03
            If a major skirmish occurs, the aircraft carrier, based in the North, will be able to supplement the forces available in the theater, covering the deployment of the same Yasen-M from enemy patrol aircraft.


            It's not just stupidity, but stupidity in a period. lol
            First of all, do you even have any idea what it means to base an aircraft carrier in the north? Just the fight against ice buildup is a real challenge? Also, if you don't know, the northern seas have a habit of being covered with ice. Are you planning to equip the AUG with icebreakers as well?
            Secondly, the main thing for a submarine is stealth. That is why our main fleet is the northern one. Where submarines have the opportunity to dive under age-old ice, where no patrol aircraft will find them, and then move into position.
            You suggest that we first deploy the AUG until they break through the ice, and only then pull up the submarine. In short, everything should be done slowly, tediously, with flags unfurled and drums beating. Like, look and tremble, from here we will strike the enemy, just wait a couple of days until we get ready. laughing
            I am not even mentioning the fact that the survivability of the AUG in a nuclear conflict is zero, and in addition, in such a scenario, this “float” will give up its position to the submarine.
            1. -3
              1 October 2024 14: 03
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              It's not just stupidity, it's stupidity in a period

              I agree. I haven't come across a more delusional comment for a long time.
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              First of all, do you even have any idea what it means to have an aircraft carrier based in the north?

              For us, the North is a permanent base for heavy aircraft carriers, Kuznetsov was based there, as well as Kyiv and Baku.
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              Secondly, the main thing for a submarine is stealth. That is why our main fleet is the northern one. Where submarines have the opportunity to dive under centuries-old ice

              Young man, look at the map:)))) Where are our multi-purpose submarine positions and where is the age-old ice:)))))
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              You are suggesting that we first deploy the AUG until they break through the ice, and only then pull up the submarine.

              This "achtung" comes from your lack of understanding of the Northern Fleet's combat work in general. Everything is simpler there - our multi-purpose ships are deployed in the Norwegian/Barents Sea at the junction with the Normandy Sea, where they perform the role of a screen against enemy submarines and anti-aircraft carrier functions. But their actions there cannot be covered by land aviation. But the aircraft carriers operating closer to the pack ice border can.
              Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
              I'm not even mentioning the fact that the survivability of the AUG in a nuclear conflict is zero.

              Which once again confirms your complete detachment and lack of understanding of naval affairs.
              1. +2
                1 October 2024 14: 53
                I agree. I haven't come across a more delusional comment for a long time.


                Why are you pouting so suddenly, your dreams shattered by reality? lol

                For us, the North is a permanent base for heavy aircraft carriers, Kuznetsov was based there, as well as Kyiv and Baku.


                Where else should it be based? In the puddles of the Black and Baltic Seas? Or stick it in the Far East, but not everything is OK there either.
                So we have to make peace with the north, but this does not eliminate the problems there.

                Young man, look at the map:)))) Where are our multi-purpose submarine positions and where is the age-old ice:)))))


                Yes boy, that's exactly what I do. Only the difference from you is that I understand them.
                Deployment of nuclear submarines is possible over a front of more than 3000 km. How are you going to cover them with carrier-based aviation? lol

                This "achtung" comes from your lack of understanding of the Northern Fleet's combat work in general. Everything is simpler there - our multi-purpose ships are deployed in the Norwegian/Barents Sea at the junction with the Normandy Sea, where they perform the role of a screen against enemy submarines and anti-aircraft carrier functions. But their actions there cannot be covered by land aviation. But the aircraft carriers operating closer to the pack ice border can.


                I will reveal to you a "military secret" that you have no idea about. Neither the Barents nor the Norwegian Seas are internal. And putting up barriers there is the same as putting up gates in an open field. The enemy will easily bypass them.
                He still wanders around there wherever he wants, because that is his right.
                And in the event of a nuclear conflict, no one will give you time to prepare.
                And even if by some miracle you manage to put forward an AUG, then in the event of a nuclear conflict, it is simply a target.

                Which once again confirms your complete detachment and lack of understanding of naval affairs.


                How can we, military personnel, understand the great plans of couch potato strategists?
                I still haven’t been able to understand the algorithm of your actions with the AUG after the start of a nuclear conflict, how and where you will move it, especially through the ice. lol
                1. -3
                  1 October 2024 15: 35
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  So we have to make peace with the north, but this does not eliminate the problems there.

                  That is, it is still possible to base in the north:))) It's good that this reached you
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  Deployment of nuclear submarines is possible over a front of more than 3000 km. How are you going to cover them with carrier-based aviation?

                  Deployment of nuclear submarines is possible over a front of 10 km. However, no one needs this, so they are not deployed over 000 or 10 km.
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  I will reveal to you a "military secret" that you have no idea about. Neither the Barents nor the Norwegian Seas are internal. And putting up barriers there is the same as putting up gates in an open field. The enemy will easily bypass them.

                  I'll let you in on a military secret. The main danger in the event of a nuclear missile conflict in the north will come from SSBNs that can enter Norway for a "short" strike with a short approach time. And these SSBNs won't crawl under the ice, they don't really know how to shoot from under it, and they don't need to.
                  I will reveal to you the second military secret. The secondary enemy for us will be the AUS somewhere off the coast of Norway, which the US planned to deploy there. And this AUS will not go into the pack ice either.
                  I will reveal to you the third military secret. Another secondary enemy for us will be the enemy's multi-purpose submarines with Tomahawks on board. Which, for obvious reasons, have nothing to do in the pack ice. They can pass through there if necessary, but then - they will go out into the same Barents Sea.
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  And in the event of a nuclear conflict, no one will give you time to prepare.

                  Such a conflict will be preceded by a period of tension, and if not, then at least by the deployment of enemy forces. And this is quite a long time.
                  Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                  I still couldn't understand the algorithm of your actions with the AUG after the start of the nuclear conflict.

                  Which is not at all surprising for a man whose submarines are deployed along a 3000 km front in the north and Armageddon begins with a bang
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 17: 15
                    That is, it is still possible to base in the north:))) It's good that this reached you


                    You can base yourself anywhere, even in a Finnish puddle. Fighting with an AUG in the north won't work, which you just can't figure out.

                    Deployment of nuclear submarines is possible over a front of 10 km. However, no one needs this, so they are not deployed over 000 or 10 km.


                    Well, yes, you will send all your submarines in a group to make the enemy’s task easier. lol

                    I'll let you in on a military secret. The main danger in the event of a nuclear missile conflict in the north will come from SSBNs that can enter Norway for a "short" strike with a short approach time. And these SSBNs won't crawl under the ice, they don't really know how to shoot from under it, and they don't need to.
                    I will reveal to you the second military secret. The secondary enemy for us will be the AUS somewhere off the coast of Norway, which the US planned to deploy there. And this AUS will not go into the pack ice either.
                    I will reveal to you the third military secret. Another secondary enemy for us will be the enemy's multi-purpose submarines with Tomahawks on board. Which, for obvious reasons, have nothing to do in the pack ice. They can pass through there if necessary, but then - they will go out into the same Barents Sea.


                    Is there any confirmation of your words? Otherwise, it's all artistic whistling.

                    Such a conflict will be preceded by a period of tension, and if not, then at least by the deployment of enemy forces. And this is quite a long time.


                    You should at least read the history of cases when the world was balancing on the brink of nuclear war.
                    However, even without that, building a strategy with the expectation that the enemy will give time for deployment is beyond the bounds of feeblemindedness. lol

                    Which is not at all surprising for a man whose submarines are deployed along a 3000 km front in the north and Armageddon begins with a bang


                    I don’t understand whether you are deliberately lying or you have difficulty understanding.
                    Where did I say that it would be possible to deploy on a 3000 km front? The point was that deployment was possible on a line stretching over 3000 km along the front. And where exactly, that should be a mystery to the enemy.
                    Although, what surprises me is an inflated sense of self-importance, plus the lack of military education. That's the result. lol


                    Well, and finally, before you write fiction, you should take an interest in the real state of affairs.
                    Nobody in the north is counting on "floating troughs" and AUGs in general. In addition to the airfield on the Kola Peninsula, Novaya Zemlya, the reconstruction of the airfield on Alexandra Land Island is in full swing. The hard-surface runway is being extended to 3550 m. That is, to receive any type of aircraft and take off with their maximum weight.
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2024 18: 24
                      As recent events have shown, having a military education does not guarantee that a person will understand military affairs at all. Most of our generals are a sad example of this.
                    2. 0
                      1 October 2024 18: 33
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      You can base yourself anywhere, even in a Finnish puddle. Fighting with an AUG in the north won't work, which you just can't figure out.

                      If only it had reached me, but it didn’t reach the Americans either.
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      Is there any confirmation of your words? Otherwise, it's all artistic whistling.

                      Read... Well, at least "Aviation of the Russian Navy and Scientific and Technological Progress" edited by the commander of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy (at that time, naturally) I.D. Fedin.
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      You should at least read the history of cases when the world was balancing on the brink of nuclear war.

                      You should at least learn not to confuse a war as a result of an accident, from which no one is insured, and a deliberate start of a war by one of the parties. And when you learn, you will study the priority goals of counter-attacks, then you will be able to understand which forces will remain unaffected by them, and with what the war will continue. Hint - a significant number of AV will survive:))))
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      Where did I say that we would deploy a 3000 km front?

                      Well, since I'm talking to Dolly the fish, I'll quote
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      Deployment of nuclear submarines is possible over a front of more than 3000 km. How are you going to cover them with carrier-based aviation?

                      You should see a doctor, honestly.
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      The discussion was about the possibility of deployment along a line extending over 3000 km along the front.

                      And I explained to you why this is complete nonsense.
                      Quote: vovochkarzhevsky
                      Well, and finally, before you write fiction, you should take an interest in the real state of affairs.

                      Unlike you, I was interested:)))
  20. 0
    1 October 2024 10: 26
    Andrey, of course, writes well and interestingly, but in this case the questions are specifically about the content of the article. Everyone knows his bias against VTOL aircraft since his cycle about the Falklands War, and it has not changed. This is another article on the same topic. And therefore it is also full of exaggerations and hushing up of inconvenient facts.
    It seems he understands that a full-fledged aircraft carrier with catapults is a very expensive and technically complex product to build and operate, but he condemns the British for being forced to abandon them. That's why they abandoned them, because they were too expensive! And yes, it's better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick, who argues.
    In his account of the Falklands War, the author briefly mentions that the nearly two dozen subsonic Harriers were opposed by supersonic Argentine aircraft, including fighters, and that the Argentines had ten times more of them (he also gently avoids this issue, they are against the Brazilians, it doesn’t count). He also gently avoids the issue of the British saving on AWACS helicopters by switching to VTOL aircraft; it was after the war that they began to make them as if they had been scalded. But this is a key issue when using aircraft as air defense, both VTOL and conventional horizontal ones. So the Harriers found themselves in the Falklands in the most difficult conditions. And, it would seem, if we are talking about an air war, the obvious question of the number of aircraft shot down in air battles simply begs to be brought up, but it is not in the article, because it would be awkward to write that not a single Sea Harrier was shot down in air battles. But the Argentines had 21 shot down in aerial combat. And - the cherry on the cake - the Argentines had that very aircraft carrier with supersonic horizontal takeoff aircraft that Andrey advocates for. And what did it give them?
    1. 0
      1 October 2024 11: 12
      Quote from solar
      And therefore it is also full of exaggerations and concealment of inconvenient facts.

      Which ones?:)
      Quote from solar
      It seems he understands that a full-fledged aircraft carrier with catapults is a very expensive and technically complex product to build and operate, but he condemns the British for being forced to abandon them. That's why they abandoned them, because they were too expensive!

      An aircraft carrier can be without catapults, as stated in the article, and such an aircraft carrier will still be able to do much more than a VTOL carrier. And it will not be more expensive than VTOL carriers
      Quote from solar
      While talking about the Falklands War, the author briefly mentions that less than two dozen subsonic Harriers were confronted by supersonic Argentine aircraft.

      Firstly, regarding "less than two dozen" you are making things up a bit, because the British initially had 20 of them, and then reinforcements came to them. I indicated the number of VTOL aircraft at the time of the landing
      Secondly, most of them are subsonic.
      Quote from solar
      and that the Argentines had ten times more of them

      There were no. The Argentine Air Force and Navy had about 240 combat aircraft on their lists, but in reality things were much worse than on paper. A total of 19 (according to other sources, 21) Mirage IIIEA aircraft and 39 Israeli Dagger aircraft (including 5 training aircraft) were delivered to Argentina, but according to available data, only 12 Mirages and 25 Daggers were combat-ready at the start of the conflict. Worse, according to some data (A. Kotlobovsky, “Use of Mirage III and Dagger Aircraft”), no more than 8 Mirage IIIEA and only nineteen Daggers took part in the battles.
      In total, by the start of military operations, 12 Mirages, 25 Daggers, 4 Super Etendards, 39 Skyhawks and 8 Canberra light bombers could have provided support to the Falklands - that is, 88 aircraft.
      In general, you can tell tales about 100500 Agréntine aircraft, or you can just look at how many sorties they made. But if you look at the sorties, then supporters of VTOL aircraft will feel awkward...
      Quote from solar
      He also gently avoids the issue that by switching to VTOL aircraft, the British saved on AWACS helicopters

      But it is not good to lie - this issue is covered in the article.
      Quote from solar
      But this is a key issue when using aircraft as air defense, both VTOL and conventional horizontal ones.

      No. AWACS helicopters are too limited in their capabilities. In fact, even the Ka-31, which was more powerful than what the British could build at that time, is not suitable for the role of AWACS.
      .
      Quote from solar
      And, it would seem, if we are talking about an air war, the obvious question of the number of aircraft shot down by the enemy in air battles simply begs to be brought up - but it is not in the article, because it would be awkward if we wrote that not a single Sea Harrier was shot down in air battles.

      It seems awkward for you to mention that there were actually TWO air battles where the Argentines fought the Harriers, rather than trying to escape from them or break through them. Moreover, in one case the success of the British was predetermined by the superiority of British weapons, and in the second - by the error of the Argentine pilot.
      In other cases, the Argentines did not engage in aerial combat.
      Quote from solar
      And - the cherry on the cake - the Argentines had that very aircraft carrier with supersonic horizontal takeoff aircraft.

      No, only subsonic Skyhawks could be based on Mayo. Theoretically, Super Etandars could be based there too, but in practice, their pilots had not been trained yet.
      Quote from solar
      And what did it give them?

      nothing - they didn't use it:)))
      It's embarrassing to tell you this, but with such "logic" as yours, one can postulate, for example, the following thesis: "Aircraft carriers were completely useless in WWII. After all, they didn't help Japan win it."
      1. -1
        1 October 2024 11: 21
        An aircraft carrier can be without catapults, as stated in the article, and such an aircraft carrier will still be able to do much more than a VTOL carrier. And it will not be more expensive than VTOL carriers

        It is possible - as a training one, which is confirmed by practice. And it will cost more, it needs to be made larger and the finisher costs money and takes up space.
        1. +1
          1 October 2024 11: 53
          Quote from solar
          And it will cost more, it needs to be made larger and the finish costs money and takes up space.

          Only 1 such aircraft of 40 thousand tons will surpass in the air group 2 VTOL carriers of 20 thousand tons, but at the same time will cost much less. If we take a VTOL carrier of 40 thousand tons and an aircraft of the same size, then the costs will be very similar. And even if the horizontal turns out to be a little more expensive, then this will be more than compensated by the abandonment of the expensive VTOL development program.
          Again, you mentioned the arresting gear, but not the reinforced deck capable of holding the exhaust of a landing VTOL aircraft.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 22: 15
            There is a huge gap between heat-resistant landing pads and arresting gear in terms of cost, reliability, complexity and operating costs.
            But one such aircraft weighing 1 thousand tons will surpass in the air group two VTOL carriers weighing 40 thousand tons, but at the same time it will cost much less.

            These will be two ships, not one. And they can be risked, not kept in port as the greatest value. And if you take two ships of the same size, there will always be more VTOL aircraft on board - the aerofinisher takes up a lot of space. In operation, an aircraft carrier with VTOL aircraft will always be cheaper and easier, and will spend much less time on repairs. And most importantly, with VTOL aircraft, it will be a real combat ship, and not a training ship, like a ski-jump one.
            1. 0
              Yesterday, 07: 37
              Quote from solar
              There is a huge gap between heat-resistant landing pads and arresting gear in terms of cost, reliability, complexity and operating costs.

              yeah, especially in terms of cost. Thirty billion, no less:))))
              You have no idea about these issues. And you still can't understand that in terms of reliability, a VTOL aircraft is a complete loser to a ski-jump with an arresting gear.
              Quote from solar
              There will be two ships, not one. And they can be risked, not kept in port as the greatest value

              In fact, the ship is needed to solve specific tasks. As is its air group. So sending half of the forces required on a mission is indeed a bit risky.
              Quote from solar
              And if you take two ships of the same size, there will always be more VTOL aircraft on board - the aerofinisher takes up a lot of space

              Once again - no need to tell amazing stories about things you have no idea about. The arresting gear weighs 82,2-86,3 tons and is very compact and will not affect the size of the air group in any way.
              Quote from solar
              An aircraft carrier with a VTOL aircraft will always be cheaper and easier to operate, and will spend much less time on repairs.

              Exactly the same.
              Quote from solar
              And most importantly, with a VTOL aircraft it will be a real combat ship, not a training one, like a ski-jump one.

              The main thing here is that you are now trying to pass off your personal dreams as truth.
      2. 0
        1 October 2024 22: 03
        nothing - they didn't use it:)))

        If they had two horizontal takeoff aircraft carriers instead of one, they could have risked one. And the pilots would have been trained.
        In other cases, the Argentines did not engage in aerial combat.

        This, by your logic, speaks to how bad their opponents' aircraft were.
        But it is not good to lie - this issue is covered in the article.

        Precisely "softly bypassed" - in fact, you wrote that they would have been useless anyway.
        In general, you can tell tales about 100500 Argentine aircraft, or you can just look at how many sorties they made. But if you look at the sorties, then supporters of VTOL aircraft will feel awkward...

        Of course. They had to operate from the mainland. If the Argentines had had Harriers, they could easily operate from the islands themselves and the British would look pale. But in reality it was the British who did it, and the Argentines had the characteristic complexion.
        Firstly, regarding “less than two dozen” you are slightly making things up, because the British initially had 20 of them, and then reinforcements arrived.

        And they didn't have any losses?
        1. 0
          1 October 2024 23: 09
          Quote from solar
          If they had two horizontal takeoff aircraft carriers instead of one, they could have easily risked losing one.

          But they had one that was half the price of the British Invincible.
          Quote from solar
          This, by your logic, speaks to how bad their opponents' aircraft were.

          This shows that you are trying to stretch an owl onto a globe. The Argentinians did not have the goal of hitting Harriers in air battles - they had the goal of hitting ships, which is what they tried to do.
          Quote from solar
          Precisely "softly bypassed" - in fact, you wrote that they would have been useless anyway.

          Because they would be useless. And there is a reason for that. So "I congratulate you, citizen, for lying" (c)
          Quote from solar
          They had to operate from the mainland. If the Argentines had had Harriers, they could easily operate from the islands themselves.

          They couldn't, because with vertical takeoff they wouldn't have done anything to the British ships - simply because of their range and payload.
          Quote from solar
          And they didn't have any losses?

          And they had losses, and I have given the number of Harriers at the time of the landing - 31 aircraft.
  21. -1
    1 October 2024 10: 34
    Next. It is already clear that catapult aircraft carriers, like the Americans, are available to few. Besides the Americans, the French have one, but it has much fewer capabilities than the Americans - only 2 catapults and 2 Hawkeyes due to limited size (42 thousand tons). And due to technical complexity, it is idle for a significant amount of time in repair.
    Therefore, the choice is between aircraft with VTOL and ski-jump horizontal takeoff. The author is silent about the problems of the latter - horizontal takeoff aircraft do not provide stability of characteristics during takeoff from them (and landing on them too). Therefore, for example, the Chinese consider such aircraft to be combat training and consider them only as a transitional stage to catapult ones. And Kuznetsov's campaign to the Syrian coast, which everyone somehow forgot about, clearly demonstrated the inability of aircraft carriers of this type to participate in combat operations even in the most hothouse conditions. A ski-jump with conventional takeoff aircraft is a training aircraft carrier and can only be considered as a transitional model to catapult ones. If you do not plan to switch to catapult ones, like the Chinese or the USSR in their time, then building such carriers is just throwing money down the drain, they are not combat-ready.
    An aircraft carrier with a VTOL aircraft is a completely different matter. Such an aircraft, when taking off from the same ski-jump, is able to adjust to the length of the takeoff run, the wind, the oncoming air flow and the weight of the aircraft and ensure a stable and predictable takeoff of the aircraft from the board. Its landing also takes place in greenhouse conditions - with a minimum of fuel on board. Yes, a VTOL aircraft is more expensive, but this is more than compensated for by the fact that the carrier for it is much cheaper and technically simpler to build and operate than a full-fledged catapult aircraft carrier. It is not surprising that those who had access to a VTOL aircraft tried to acquire it.
    In fact, existing VTOL aircraft, both the Harrier and the F-35B, are designed to take off with a short run, and not vertically (although they allow for the possibility of vertical takeoff in certain conditions if necessary). But there is nothing wrong with that - no one is going to base VTOL aircraft on ships without an extended flight deck. As for their characteristics in comparison with horizontal takeoff aircraft, we see manipulation in the article again. For some reason, the F-35B is compared with the F-35A and some conclusions are made from this (and the figures are taken biasedly - it is hushed up that the F-35B has completely different figures for its combat radius). Is the F-35A the only horizontal takeoff aircraft? There are plenty of horizontal takeoff aircraft, and their characteristics can differ greatly. The F-35B is not the best aircraft in terms of range and load, but it is quite comparable to the Super Hornet, F-16 and Grippen - quite normal modern aircraft. Are aircraft used only at maximum range and with maximum combat load? In fact, in most cases the combat load is much lower than the maximum permissible, and the range is also lower. The F-35V is in no way inferior to horizontal takeoff aircraft, although, of course, in some characteristics it is not the best among them. But it is superior to them in others - first of all in basing capabilities. It is better to have a plane that is not the best than to have no plane at all, and this is exactly the question.
    1. 0
      1 October 2024 11: 25
      Quote from solar
      Therefore, the choice is between VTOL aircraft and horizontal takeoff ski-jump aircraft. The author is silent about the problems of the latter - horizontal takeoff aircraft do not provide stability of characteristics when taking off from them (and landing on them, too).

      And again - a lie, the article mentions it. As well as mentioning that even in this case VTOL aircraft lose to horizontal ones. But you are embarrassed to draw attention to this.
      Quote from solar
      And Kuznetsov’s expedition to the Syrian coast, which everyone had somehow forgotten about, clearly demonstrated the inability of aircraft carriers of this type to participate in combat operations even in the most favorable conditions.

      It only showed that we don't know how to handle AV.
      Quote from solar
      An aircraft carrier with a VTOL aircraft is a completely different matter. Such an aircraft, when taking off from the same ski jump, is able to adjust to the length of the takeoff run, the wind, the oncoming air flow and the weight of the aircraft and ensure a stable and predictable takeoff of the aircraft from the side.

      This is not science fiction at all. The only difference between a VTOL and a conventional aircraft during a short takeoff is their load. A horizontal one has a higher load.
      Quote from solar
      For some reason, the F-35V is compared to the F-35A and some conclusions are drawn from this (and the figures are taken biasedly - it is kept silent that the F-35V has completely different figures for combat radius).

      Because flight range is a much simpler indicator that excludes cheating than combat radius.
      Quote from solar
      Is the F-35A the only horizontal takeoff aircraft? There are plenty of horizontal takeoff aircraft, and their performance can vary greatly. The F-35B is not the best aircraft in terms of range and payload, but it is quite comparable to the Super Hornet, F-16 and Grippen - all quite normal modern aircraft.

      As I said, VTOL supporters find it awkward to compare comparables, i.e. aircraft created at the same time, with the same tasks and at the same technical level. They find it more fun to compare aircraft of different generations.
      Quote from solar
      Are aircraft only used at maximum range and with maximum combat load?

      In typical air patrol missions, flying with a full tank is mandatory and underslung fuel is highly desirable. Which is impossible with vertical takeoff.
      Quote from solar
      It is better to have a plane that is not the best than to have no plane at all, and that is exactly how the question is posed.

      The question is whether to have a normal airplane for money, or a not-so-best one for a lot of money.
      1. -1
        1 October 2024 22: 34
        And again - a lie, the article mentions it. As well as mentioning that even in this case VTOL aircraft are inferior to horizontal ones.

        Not a word. Except for the statement that "VTOL aircraft are inferior to horizontal aircraft", which does not correspond to reality. Kuznetsov's campaign demonstrated the real combat value of ski-jump aircraft carriers without VTOL aircraft.
        It only showed that we don't know how to handle AV.

        Of course - without VTOL aircraft they are much more difficult to operate, and taking off from them is akin to a trick with an unpredictable result.
        This is not science fiction at all. The only difference between a VTOL and a conventional aircraft during a short takeoff is their load. A horizontal one has a higher load.

        The key difference is in ensuring takeoff stability. A VTOL aircraft has additional lift for some time after takeoff.
        As I said, VTOL supporters find it awkward to compare comparables, i.e. aircraft created at the same time, with the same tasks and at the same technical level. They find it more fun to compare aircraft of different generations.

        Do you want a taxi or a checkered one? It is clear that there are only a few fifth-generation aircraft, so there is nothing to compare them with. But there are plenty of fourth-generation aircraft in the world, they are used equally with the fifth.
        In typical air patrol missions, flying with a full tank is mandatory and underslung fuel is highly desirable. Which is impossible with vertical takeoff.

        Vertically - yes, and with mileage - no problem.
        The question is whether to have a normal airplane for money, or a not-so-best one for a lot of money.

        What's the point of having an aircraft that can only be used as a training aircraft?
        1. +1
          1 October 2024 23: 02
          Quote from solar
          Not a word. Except for the statement that "VTOL aircraft are inferior to horizontal ones", which does not correspond to reality.

          Lying is generally bad, but lying can be verified...
          Perhaps the Su-75 will not be able to take off from a ski-jump with maximum takeoff weight, but so what? If we make a VTOL aircraft based on it, then such a VTOL aircraft will lose one and a half times in payload weight, as happened with the F-35B relative to the F-35A. And the fact that a VTOL aircraft based on the Su-75 will be able to take off “in full combat mode” will not result in any gain in combat radius, patrol time, etc. compared to a regular Su-75 – no matter what the loss.

          Quote from solar
          Kuznetsov's campaign demonstrated the real combat value of ski-jump aircraft carriers without VTOL aircraft.

          Didn't show. However, if you want to write nonsense - look at the "campaigns" of aircraft carriers with verticals. British.
          Quote from solar
          The key difference is in ensuring takeoff stability.

          This is just some kind of Horus Heresy.
          Quote from solar
          A VTOL aircraft has additional lift for some time after takeoff.

          A VTOL aircraft has a five times higher accident rate, and you are telling me some fairy tales about stability. You clearly don't understand what kind. A ramp is a simpler and less accident-prone method than a vertical takeoff.
          Quote from solar
          Do you need a taxi or checkered ones?

          I don't need any lies
          Quote from solar
          It is clear that there are only a few fifth generation aircraft, so there is nothing to compare them with.

          Don't lie about "nothing to compare with". There is very much - F-35A and B. It's just inconvenient for you to remember this:)))))
  22. 0
    1 October 2024 11: 03
    Meanwhile, it is obvious that during landing operations, when the F-35B lands vertically, its engine operates at full power, and fuel consumption should be greater than that of the F-35A. Therefore, I have an assumption that the flight range of 1 km for the F-670B is indicated for the case when it takes off and lands horizontally, that is, like a normal aircraft.


    The flight range of 1670 km is a combat radius of 833 km or 450 nautical miles.
    We look at the table and see that the range corresponds to the STOVL configuration - short takeoff and vertical landing. The combat load is indicated in the table
    1. +4
      1 October 2024 11: 16
      Quote: Engineer
      Flight range of 1670 km is a combat radius of 833 km

      a bit of a strange statement, don't you think?
      1. 0
        1 October 2024 11: 17
        Of course it's strange,
        But if the author uses such "terms" from the very beginning instead of the established "combat radius" and "ferry range", then what to do? You have to start from something
        1. +2
          1 October 2024 11: 45
          Quote: Engineer
          But if the author from the very beginning uses such "terms" instead of the established "combat radius" and "ferry range"

          I don't use "terms", but information from the public domain. If you find the ferry range of the F-35 - thank you, I couldn't.
          1. +1
            1 October 2024 11: 47
            It's not needed
            From the table above it is clear that the F-35V will cover 1670 km in STOVL configuration with some spare capacity left over.
            1. +1
              1 October 2024 11: 57
              Quote: Engineer
              From the table below it can be seen that the F-35V will cover 1670 km in STOVL configuration.

              It is not visible at all. Firstly, the initial data of this table is questionable. Secondly, they need to be compared with the F-35A to see the difference.
              That is, I am quite ready to admit that the data about 1670 km is false (because a combat radius of 833 km cannot correspond to a range of 1670 km), but then the range of the F-35A must also be revised.
              1. -1
                1 October 2024 12: 04
                Well then compare and review
                The A-mod has a combat radius of 670 nautical miles, although the load is somewhat different. This is enough for me and I personally do not see any contradictions
                1. 0
                  1 October 2024 13: 20
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Well then compare and review

                  I compared them. The figures you stated do not refute mine. If A has 670 miles, and B has 450 in similar configuration, then the flight range of A is as much as one and a half times greater than B. At the same time, A has a 37% greater fuel reserve. Accordingly, B is much inferior to A in range. If the configuration is not similar, then there is nothing to talk about, since comparable things must be compared.
                  1. +1
                    1 October 2024 14: 01
                    They refute
                    Here is the original thesis
                    So I have a hunch that the 1 km range for the F-670B is for the case where it takes off and lands horizontally, that is, like a regular aircraft.


                    It is easy to see that the data in the table shows 450 nautical miles of combat radius in STOVL mode with weapons on the internal suspension, this is even more than 1670 km, no matter what). Moreover, this demonstrated performance

                    A-mod obviously has a greater range, this is clear and no one argues with this. Its combat radius can be rated as excellent. The radius of B-mod is from "not bad" to "good". There are no contradictions. At least reconsider.
                    1. +1
                      1 October 2024 14: 41
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Here is the original thesis

                      To begin with, it wouldn't hurt you to learn what a "thesis" is. Then you would know that a thesis is a statement that briefly outlines one of the main ideas (in this case, of an article)
                      Accordingly, the
                      Quote: Engineer
                      That's why I have there is a guess, that the 1 km range for the F-670B is given for the case when it takes off and lands horizontally, that is, like a regular aircraft

                      thesis is not
                      The thesis is
                      The result, as they say, is obvious. The F-35B is heavier, but carries one and a half times less payload.
                      1. +1
                        1 October 2024 16: 16
                        That is, we believe that we have figured out the F-35B's range and your assumption was incorrect.

                        Moving on.
                        Maximum load mod A (fuel + weapons) = 8278 + 8160 = 16438 kg
                        Maximum load mod B 6123+6800= 12923 kg

                        Carries 22 percent less. Naturally, we assume that both aircraft operate from a full runway. Because you have to compare what is comparable.

                        And if we take the options with a short takeoff, then there is nothing to compare. There, any opponent mod-B becomes zero.
                      2. +1
                        1 October 2024 16: 30
                        Quote: Engineer
                        That is, we believe that we have figured out the F-35B's range and your assumption was incorrect.

                        If your data is correct, then yes.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Maximum load mod A (fuel + weapons) = 8278 + 8160 = 16438 kg

                        Or 18 kg. Depends on the source from which the data is taken.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Naturally, we assume that both aircraft operate from a full-fledged runway. Because we should compare what is comparable.

                        Why suddenly? VTOL aircraft are supposed to have the advantage of short takeoff or even vertical takeoff, and I think this advantage cost them.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And if we take options with a short takeoff, then there is nothing to compare.

                        It is precisely the short take-off B that needs to be compared with the full take-off A.
                      3. 0
                        1 October 2024 16: 41
                        I took the loads from Wikipedia, there is no need to split hairs.

                        Of course not, because if it is possible to use a regular aircraft, there is no need for a short takeoff. This is obvious. But if the concept can justify the use of such aircraft, then in their niche they become extremely valuable, provided that the concept is correct. It is more correct to evaluate the concept first.

                        And secondly, if you really want to, you can (and probably should) compare them in stealth configuration - the combat load is the same, the only difference is in the fuel reserve, which gives a third greater radius to mod A. Nothing critical in my opinion.

                        It is worth noting that even in the STOVL configuration, the F-35 has a radius superior to that of the Super Hornet.
                      4. +1
                        1 October 2024 18: 34
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I took the loads from Wikipedia, there is no need to split hairs.

                        THE SAME, although my data is confirmed by English scholars
                        Quote: Engineer
                        It is worth noting that even in the STOVL configuration, the F-35 has a radius superior to that of the Super Hornet.

                        does not exceed
                      5. -1
                        1 October 2024 18: 51
                        THE SAME, although my data is confirmed by English scholars


                        The data for the calculation above is taken from the English-language Wiki

                        Empty weight 28,999 lb (13,154 kg) 32,472 lb (14,729 kg)

                        Internal fuel 18,250 lb (8,278 kg) 13,500 lb (6,123 kg)

                        Weapons payload 18,000 lb (8,160 kg) 15,000 lb (6,800 kg)

                        Max takeoff weight 70,000 lb (31,800 kg) 60,000 lb (27,200 kg)

                        does not exceed


                        On internal tanks with comparable loads, it's a draw at best for the Super Hornet.
                      6. +1
                        1 October 2024 19: 18
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Empty weight 28,999 lb (13,154 kg)

                        Quote: Engineer
                        Max takeoff weight 70,000 lb (31,800 kg)

                        The difference is 18 kg.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        On internal tanks with comparable loads, it's a draw at best

                        And with the same amount of fuel?:)))))))
                      7. 0
                        1 October 2024 20: 13
                        The difference is 18 kg.


                        What's the point if the mass of fuel and weapons for both is known? You stubbornly try to push the comparison into abstract parameters that are most disadvantageous for B.

                        I repeat, in the stealth version for mod-B everything is not as bad as you would like. As well as in terms of the total fuel and weapons reserves.


                        And with the same amount of fuel?:)))))))

                        So they have approximately the same internal fuel capacity of 6000+ kg
                      8. +1
                        1 October 2024 22: 55
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What's the point if the mass of fuel and weapons for both is known.

                        Because the difference between the empty aircraft and the maximum takeoff load is a better indicator of the payload.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        You are persistently trying to push the comparison into abstract parameters that are as disadvantageous as possible for B.

                        These are not abstract parameters. Fuel is fuel in internal tanks. Armament is armament. And maximum takeoff - this can be additional fuel in external tanks or something else.
                      9. 0
                        1 October 2024 22: 41
                        THE SAME, although my data is confirmed by English scholars

                        Combat radius on
                        internal fuel ... 505 nmi (935 km) ...

                        For F-35V version
                      10. 0
                        1 October 2024 20: 46
                        It is interesting to read your discussion. Informative.
                        But why are you comparing mobilizations A and B? If we are talking about aircraft based on "sea platforms" then it is more logical to compare B with short takeoff and C.
                      11. 0
                        1 October 2024 22: 43
                        Totally illogical. The F-35C requires a catapult carrier.
                        "It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick"
                      12. 0
                        1 October 2024 22: 47
                        And can mod A take off from an aircraft without a catapult???
                      13. 0
                        1 October 2024 23: 06
                        And can mod A take off from an aircraft without a catapult???

                        Taking off and being used are two different concepts. The huge C-130 has taken off and landed on an aircraft carrier many times, but no one has ever thought of including it in the carrier-based aviation.

                        It is entirely possible that both the F-35A and F-35S are capable of taking off from the deck without a catapult (the Super Hornet, for example, is capable of taking off from a ski-jump without a catapult with a decent load), but this does not mean that they can be used in this mode. The author of the article does not understand the difference between the ability to take off and the possibility of use in combat conditions.
                      14. +1
                        1 October 2024 23: 28
                        Well, I meant use in combat conditions.
                        But I still don't understand the reasons for comparing A and B modifications. They are different in essence. ModA clearly won't be able to be fully exploited from the same ski jump. The load from the ski jump.
                        A horizontal deck aircraft is always heavier than a regular land-based aircraft. It simply has to be stronger. And that's why it loses. It has a higher dead weight.
                        So. Okay. I got confused in the logic of the discussion and clearly lost the thread. Thanks for answering.
                        Thank you for your detailed arguments throughout the discussion. I learned a lot.
                      15. 0
                        1 October 2024 23: 30
                        Of course, the F-35A cannot be operated from a ski-jump. Comparing it to the F-35B makes no sense.
                      16. +1
                        Yesterday, 11: 40
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Well, I meant use in combat conditions.

                        How is it different from the civilian ones?:))) Without fantasizing, there are three takeoff lines on Kuznetsov, two short and one long. With the long one, the plane can take off at maximum weight normally, with the short ones... It can too, but this is aerobatics and combat pilots are prohibited from doing so.
                        Stories about how the Su-33 can't take off from two short ones with a full fuel load make people faint, but they don't understand that the Su-33's full fuel load is 9.4 tons. The American Eagle gets by with six:)))
                      17. 0
                        Yesterday, 11: 51
                        Here the question is no longer how much fuel by weight, but how long it will last. Especially if the aircraft needs to patrol for a long time. Air defense. Although for air defense, the ammunition load is not needed at full weight.
                        But 1 lane is to wait until the partner takes off. Also reduces the working time.
                        No, Kuznetsov is not an aircraft carrier.
                        Full-fledged is plus or minus 100 tons. And anything less is half measures. Compromises.
                        Unfortunately, Russia will not be able to handle such a corps in the near future.
                      18. +1
                        Yesterday, 12: 23
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        The question here is no longer how much fuel there is by weight, but how long it will last.

                        That's right, but you see what the matter is - when planes go on a scheduled patrol, nothing prevents them from doing it from a long takeoff position. And when an emergency boost is needed, a full fuel supply is not needed, since it only worsens maneuverability.
                        So the situation with the trampoline is not so bad.
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Full-fledged is plus or minus 100 tons.

                        75
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        And anything less is half measures. Compromises.

                        Yes, but all this applies to the SVP to the same extent.
                      19. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 09
                        VTOL is a complete compromise in itself. An aircraft carrier should be a full-fledged aircraft carrier. With a catapult, because without a catapult, the AWACS will not take off. Plus a normal tanker.
                        And VTOL aircraft are the lot of helicopter carriers and UDCs. Air defense on the former, I/B on the latter. And since few of them are needed, they will be an expensive toy that will not be brought to mind during the life cycle. And therefore, the expediency is in doubt.
                      20. +1
                        Yesterday, 11: 27
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        But why are you comparing mobilizations A and B?

                        Because it is precisely in this comparison that it is obvious what the VTOL aircraft has to sacrifice in comparison to a conventional aircraft. Simply put, B is the best VTOL aircraft that the US was able to make, and A is an aircraft on the same technical base and maximally unified with B, but without the requirement for vertical landing and takeoff.
                        The tales about A not being able to take off from a ski jump are tales and they are true, it can. It's a question of energy availability.
                      21. 0
                        Yesterday, 11: 58
                        Well, there's a lot of talk about aircraft for aircraft carriers. B and C.
                        And thrust-to-weight ratio is only half the battle. Aircraft optimized for carrier operations must be stronger. Overloads on takeoff. Overloads on landing. And additional strength is extra weight.
                        Any purely land-based aircraft will be in a winning situation.
                        Hack is hundreds of kg. Reinforcement of landing gear struts too. Folding wings. Weight weight and weight.
                        Without this weight, a land-based aircraft will not last long on an aircraft carrier.
                      22. +1
                        Yesterday, 12: 32
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Well, there is a lot of talk about aircraft for aircraft carriers.

                        No. We are talking about VTOL aircraft in general, and aircraft carriers are a special case.
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        And thrust-to-weight ratio is half the battle. Aircraft optimized for carrier operations must be stronger. Takeoff overloads. Landing overloads.

                        Both of them are not superior to the usual ones, otherwise the pilot will be finished.
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Hack is hundreds of kg. Reinforcement of landing gear struts too. Folding wings. Weight weight and weight.

                        Of course. However, as was pointed out in the article, even taking all this into account, a regular aircraft adapted to the deck will at least be no worse than a VTOL aircraft taking off from the same ski-jump. And it will cost much less and will be structurally more reliable.
                      23. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 12
                        VTOLs are not needed on full-fledged aircraft carriers. That is why the F35 has three sub-modifications instead of two.
  23. +1
    1 October 2024 11: 06
    Good article but I would like to see aircraft carriers as well, I personally saw all of them Moscow, Leningrad, Kyiv, Minsk, Novorossiysk, Baku in the period 1983-1990. SSBNs need to be covered both in the KSF and in the KTOF right now.
  24. -1
    1 October 2024 11: 24
    There is one VTOL aircraft that surpasses a similar horizontal one in flight characteristics. It is a transport tiltrotor. The same Osprey. If you ask an engineer what he needs to improve the AN-26, he will say "Reduce the wing area and increase the propeller diameter." The first will give speed at low altitudes, the second - the efficiency of the propellers and range. But the wing cannot be reduced due to the requirement for low landing and takeoff speeds, and the propeller will touch the ground. In the tiltrotor, this worked out well - you don't need a large wing, a small one is enough for cruising mode, and the huge propellers do not touch the ground. So we get a transport aircraft like the AN-26, taking off vertically. Well, the Americans screwed up with the stream of gases hitting the ground. They will fix it.
    1. 0
      1 October 2024 11: 44
      Quote: dauria
      There is one VTOL aircraft that surpasses the similar "horizontal" aircraft in flight characteristics. This is a transport convertiplane. The same "Osprey".

      Loses completely.
      1. -1
        1 October 2024 12: 00
        Osprey
        Passenger capacity: 24 paratroopers.
        Cruising speed - 510 km / h.
        practical range - 2627 km (without refueling)
        Practical ceiling - 7620 m

        An-26
        30 paratroopers
        Cruising speed: 435 km / h
        Practical range: 1 100 km
        Practical ceiling: 7 300 m.

        Why is this so, I wrote above. A wing of small (optimal area) and a propeller of large diameter. At the same time, think about why passenger airliners climb as high as 10 m.
        1. -2
          1 October 2024 14: 37
          Unfortunately, you are not comparing similar planes.
          The Osprey has such characteristics not because it is a tiltrotor, but because unprecedented measures have been taken to make it lighter. For example, about 70% of its fuselage and wings are made of composites. The An-26 has 0%. If you make the An-26 from such materials, it will have completely different performance characteristics.
          And the Osprey is so light that it doesn’t even have an internal air conditioning (heating) system, which is why it can only transport paratroopers either low (where the temperature is normal) or very close.
    2. +1
      1 October 2024 22: 45
      There is one VTOL aircraft that surpasses the similar "horizontal" aircraft in flight characteristics. This is a transport convertiplane. The same "Osprey".

      The Osprey is almost identical in performance to the American carrier-based transport C-2 Greyhound.
      1. 0
        1 October 2024 22: 53
        Yes, you are right. It is indeed very close. I think Osprey will be able to replace Hokkai as an AWACS.
        1. 0
          1 October 2024 23: 13
          The transport one is already in the process of being replaced, the decision has been made. Unlike the S-2, the Osprey has an F-35 engine. Given the Americans' desire for unification, the AWACS is a matter of time. And if it is made, it will be a possibility of full-fledged AWACS for UDCs and light aircraft carriers.
        2. 0
          Yesterday, 11: 19
          It will never be able to, due to the reasons stated above. Not to mention that placing the Hokayev antenna on the Osprey is physically impossible.
      2. 0
        Yesterday, 08: 24
        A brilliant result - in 2007 to repeat the characteristics of 1966 but at a price three times more expensive
  25. 0
    1 October 2024 12: 20
    But what if, in order to preserve and restore the competence and experience of naval aviation, the experience of operating an aircraft carrier, the experience of building and repairing large-tonnage vessels, we need SOMETHING. After all, it seems that Kuznetsov will never go to sea as a combat ship. And by the time the plan for the revival of the fleet is formed (which, however, is pointless without reforming the economy, production and political connections), we may simply forget how to do all this.
    And there is a proposal. To make 2 "medium" aircraft carriers. To take as a basis the UDC project with ideas from the projects of late Soviet aircraft carriers. To remove everything that is not needed for an aircraft carrier. To make it simpler and cheaper, to make one continuous straight deck. I would like to install 2 catapults on such ships, based on the developments that were in the Union. Although, to save money, it is possible to make the first one with a ski-jump. The second one with a catapult, and then immediately send the first one to replace the ski-jump with a catapult.
    Small. Displacement of 40-45 thousand tons.
    290-300 m long.
    Yes, the air groups there will be small. But his task is to restore the lost experience. In addition, 2 ships allow:
    Expand the area of ​​the air group's operating zone during joint operations
    Have a backup takeoff/landing site when operating far from shore
    Gaining lost experience in the interaction of several aircraft carriers
    Reducing the cost of producing components for each cloabl separately
    In the worst case, one "average" aircraft carrier could become a donor for another.
    The ability to provide air support in two different areas (for example, one in the Arctic Ocean and one in the Pacific).
    Or the possibility of organizing a permanent air wing presence in the region by rotating two aircraft carriers.

    But no matter how much of a supporter of the development of the fleet I am, even I understand that we first of all need to build an adequate air force. With various AWACS and ELINT aircraft. With a well-established complex of multifunctional aircraft in large quantities. I am not even talking about the development of microelectronics for industry (including the military-industrial complex) and communications equipment in the army.
    1. 0
      1 October 2024 22: 48
      I would like to install 2 catapults on such ships, based on the developments that were in the Union.

      The Soviet Union failed to build a real catapult for launching aircraft from the deck. It is even more doubtful that this will be possible now. The task is too technically complex.
  26. 0
    1 October 2024 12: 53
    This morning I read Andrey’s wonderful article and kept thinking about how I could supplement it or comment on it.
    Three questions: who is Russia's enemy at sea and how we will fight it and with what. What does Russian military science in general and naval science in particular say? So they decided that naval aviation needs an aircraft carrier. (Or not). And which one and how many? And with what aviation? And with what weapons of aircraft and the ship itself? And where will it plug holes in the defense or control the situation, at least in the form of aerial reconnaissance.
    Another question is that to build an aircraft carrier you need a total of three to four million man-hours.
    Just design and drawings at least 500000 hours. And then select who will make components, devices and everything else. And this is without the actual aircraft.
    We cannot modernize the AN-2, not to mention the MS-21, Superjet 100, etc.
    If we simply replicate the Yak-141, it will be a miracle. In principle, it is no worse than the F-35 in that form.
    Personally, I am for the Yak-141, but modernized with modern technology and modern weapons. soldier
    1. 0
      1 October 2024 14: 12
      Quote: V.
      If we just repeat the Yak-141, it will be a miracle.

      The whole problem is that it and its carriers will require more resources than a normal aircraft carrier + Su-75. The aircraft carrier will be cheaper.
      1. +1
        1 October 2024 14: 42
        Forget about the SU-75, it's just a PR campaign (like people work), and we need to forget about aircraft carriers, there are no people who can make them yet, they can't repair the finished one wisely and resume flights on it at least for training purposes. Now every aircraft is a failure, only Soviet reserves still save aviation, the navy. Sooner or later the understanding will come that the bourgeoisie, the oligarchs are not capable of a breakthrough, of a scientific, technological, labor feat. soldier hi
        1. -2
          1 October 2024 15: 15
          Quote: V.
          Forget about the SU-75, it's just a PR stunt

          They said the same about the Su-57
          Quote: V.
          and we need to forget about aircraft carriers, there are no people who can make them yet

          They are here for now. But later they may no longer be there.
          Quote: V.
          Nowadays, every plane is a failure.

          I really disagree. Even without talking about the Su-57, the Su-35 is very good, and this is not a Soviet invention at all.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 15: 40
            Excuse me, please Andrey, but just as the T-90 and T-14 grew out of the T-34, so the SU-35 grew out of the SU-27 and its predecessors, and the Su-57 is all based on the Soviet school of aircraft construction, one could say the Russian school in general.
            In order not to forget how to build aircraft carriers, we must at least give assignments for their projects in the diploma assignments of graduates of shipbuilding institutes.
            In modern times, a single-engine fighter is from poverty, from misery or with a country the size of two districts from the city of Moscow. The Yak-130 and that with two engines.
            I don’t know if this is true, but the military pilots themselves insisted on two engines.
            1. -2
              1 October 2024 15: 54
              Quote: V.
              So the SU-35 grows from the SU-27 and its predecessors

              Well, the T-90 also grows from the T-34, but these are completely different machines:))))
              Quote: V.
              The Su-35 grows from the Su-27 and its predecessors, and the Su-57 is all based on the Soviet school of aircraft construction, one could say the Russian school in general.

              But here is the question of the coefficient of technical novelty. Yes, of course, the Su-35 is a continuation of the USSR school, but the fuselage is completely new (don't be fooled by the visual similarity), the engine is also new (it has plasma ignition, and a lot of other things), the avionics are generally 5 steps ahead of what the Su-27 flew with
              Quote: V.
              I don’t know if this is true, but the military pilots themselves insisted on two engines.

              The twin-engine design has its advantages, but it also has its disadvantages, and there are many of them.
  27. DO
    +2
    1 October 2024 15: 13
    Whether we like it or not, in the next 1...3 years there is an extremely high probability of a direct military clash between Russia and NATO countries. And during this time, neither VTOL aircraft nor aircraft carriers can be built in any significant quantities for a large-scale war.
    Therefore, I am pleased to quote from the author, with which I completely agree:
    Until the security of the near sea zone from underwater, surface and air threats is restored, until we are ready to ensure the unimpeded withdrawal of our submarines from their bases, until the fleet receives a sufficient number of modern patrol aircraft and helicopters to detect enemy submarines, at least in the adjacent seas, etc., etc., it is clearly premature to talk about the development of the fleet's deck aviation.
    1. +2
      1 October 2024 15: 49
      Quote: DO
      And during this time, neither VTOL aircraft nor aircraft carriers can be built in any significant quantities for a large-scale war.

      This is undoubtedly true.
  28. +2
    1 October 2024 15: 40
    Excuse me, but are there any non-marinized Su-75s and is at least one of them flying?
    1. -2
      1 October 2024 15: 49
      Quote: vadim dok
      and are there any non-marinized SU-75s and is there at least one of them flying?

      No, but a flying prototype is in the process of being assembled. And this is much more than what we have for VTOL aircraft, for which there are no drawings, let alone even a project.
      In addition, the VKS needs the Su-75, but not the VTOL.
      1. 0
        1 October 2024 15: 54
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        there are no drawings, not even a project.

        Well, these drawings shouldn’t be in the public domain.
        1. -1
          1 October 2024 16: 31
          Quote: guest
          Well, these drawings shouldn’t be in the public domain.

          There are none at all, since no one allocated money for its development.
          1. 0
            1 October 2024 17: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There are none at all, since no one allocated money for its development.

            I don’t think that information about the allocation of funds will be in the public domain.
            1. -1
              1 October 2024 18: 37
              Quote: guest
              I don’t think that information about the allocation of funds will be in the public domain.

              Well, that's a shame. Similar programs are announced long before the stage the Su-75 is at now.
              1. 0
                1 October 2024 20: 07
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, in vain.

                And what does the enemy need to know about what types of weapons we are really going to develop? When the weapons are ready, we can present the enemy with a fait accompli.
                1. 0
                  Yesterday, 11: 15
                  I am ready to respect your opinion, but the fact is that we still declare the development of such weapons long before their serial production. This is especially true for aviation, where we always strive to make the process cheaper by attracting third-party investors, the same India. And "putting the enemy before the fact" is not very profitable now, no one has canceled information wars, and hushing up one's own developments in them negatively
                  1. 0
                    Yesterday, 13: 25
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the fact is that we still declare the development of such weapons long before they are serial production.

                    But they imagine it when there is 1 ready prototype.
                    1. 0
                      Yesterday, 13: 42
                      The Su-75 didn't have that. The Su-57 was spotted, if my memory serves me right, 2 years before its first flight. PAK DA. The new MiG interceptor.
                      1. 0
                        Yesterday, 13: 50
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Su-57 was spotted, if my memory serves me right, 2 years before its first flight.

                        Well, as I remember, they showed the finished plane, and the fact that it didn’t take off doesn’t mean that it couldn’t fly at all.
      2. 0
        1 October 2024 16: 07
        Three flying prototypes of the Yak-141 were built. One crashed, the other two are waiting for their time, and I hope the drawings are intact. There is something to dance from.
        1. 0
          Today, 20: 11
          Their time passed about 30 years ago. I would definitely support the idea of ​​reviving the production of An12 with new engines (if there are any). Because it is really needed.
          And the Yak141 now - you can't sew a tail on a mare. Where to? Why? Why?
  29. 0
    Yesterday, 12: 09
    Quote: Vitov
    The aircraft carries two blanks for vertical takeoff and landing and also requires jet control, the channels and devices of which take up additional space.

    And the Harrier carries excess engine thrust, which is impossible to use in horizontal flight on a subsonic aircraft. Air ducts and gas rudder nozzles also take up a lot of space and weight. It is worth remembering that the efficiency of a gas turbine engine operating at 20-30% of thrust, and the Harrier's aerodynamics are not able to digest more, is very low.
    The F35 seems to be capable of reaching supersonic speeds and, accordingly, using its high thrust-to-weight ratio, but it has two other problems:
    Aerodynamics completely unsuitable for transonic speeds, hello Whitcomb, and excessive multi-mode engine. Always wondered where they use the excess turbine power needed to drive the vertical takeoff fan.
    If you think about these questions carefully, the benefit of a single lift-cruise engine becomes very, very questionable.
  30. 0
    Yesterday, 12: 39
    An engineer's thought: Why a VTOL aircraft? Why not an aircraft radically adapted to short takeoff and landing? If everything goes well, it will surpass the VTOL aircraft in performance characteristics (although not reaching the level of "pure" aircraft) and the deck for takeoff/landing will be much shorter.
  31. 0
    Yesterday, 14: 02
    The respected author, as usual, looks to the future with optimism, which I do not share. He suggests abandoning an expensive toy - VTOL aircraft in favor of another expensive toy - an aircraft carrier formation. At the same time, all the arguments are reasonable, for the most part even indisputable. But there is one nuance. First, we should build a Timokhin style mob corvette in some quantities and at least some anti-submarine aircraft, and then we can have an AUG and a VTOL aircraft and a DKVD and the devil in a mortar with an AFAR and a combat laser.
    1. 0
      Today, 08: 27
      Yes, it seems like this is written directly in the article:))))
      Until the security of the near sea zone from underwater, surface and air threats is restored, until we are ready to ensure the unimpeded withdrawal of our submarines from their bases, until the fleet receives a sufficient number of modern patrol aircraft and helicopters to detect enemy submarines, at least in the adjacent seas, etc., etc., it is clearly premature to talk about the development of the fleet's deck aviation.
  32. 0
    Yesterday, 15: 04
    What aircraft carrier, what AWACS? It turned out that the army had nowhere to pray. So they urgently had to build a huge main military temple. Costing as much as an aircraft carrier. There, the righteous will perform vertical takeoffs to heaven. And this is much more important than ships and fighters.
  33. 0
    Today, 20: 05
    A short summary of a very long article, which I haven't even read halfway through.
    1. Today the country does not have a concept of either a light or a heavy aircraft carrier.
    2. Work on a short takeoff/landing aircraft has not been carried out for about 30 years. Everything that was modern in the late 80s has long been outdated.
    3. There is no modern deck-based fighter either.
    4. Without a carrier-based AWACS, an aircraft carrier is blind. It doesn't exist either.
    5. We need a concept for using aircraft carriers. Like: build 2040 units with a displacement of x tons by 10. So many at sea, so many in repair. Permanent presence in such and such regions. And so on and so forth.