Russian Auto Industry: Where Are You Heading?

717
Russian Auto Industry: Where Are You Heading?


Expensive and not rich


The strategic importance of the automobile industry for the state is difficult to overestimate. In addition to the fact that a car has long since become not a luxury, but a means of transportation, the industry is tied to huge human resources and industrial sectors.



Ukraine demonstrates a typical example of a treacherous attitude towards its own automobile industry. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the state inherited a powerful industrial complex, including one focused on automobile production. Yes, among the assets were ZAZ and KrAZ, which were not the most modern even by Soviet standards, but we must not forget about the bus plant in Lviv and the manufacturer of unique all-terrain vehicles LuAZ.

For anyone who says that it is impossible to maintain largely uncompetitive production, it is enough to point to neighboring Belarus. Under Lukashenko, most of the auto industry has been preserved and even increased.

In Russia, the process of preserving the sovereign auto industry has taken a sophisticated form. The factories did not seem to disappear, with the exception of ZiL and AZLK, but they produced unique products.

By 2022, AvtoVAZ had become a de facto assembly site for foreign components dressed in a Russian shell. Most of the car's filling was from abroad. According to the laws of the market, it is much more profitable to buy products that are produced in hundreds of thousands or millions around the world. This is how we bought ABS, ESP units and airbags. Even car paint was not sovereign - since 2022, Tolyatti was forced to produce monochrome cars for a long time.

In 2022, foreign sanctions showed that market relations are good until the first political decisions. AvtoVAZ was the unluckiest of all - its capacities were so focused on the Renault-Nissan concern that it was very hard to believe in the viability of the Togliatti plant after the departure of the senior partner. But they recovered. But at what cost.

Since 2022, the plant workers have not put a single new model on the conveyor. Unless, of course, you count the resumption of production in Izhevsk of the "family" "Lada Largus", the price of which only starts at 1,7 million. With great difficulty and with Chinese help, subcontractors were able to establish the production of electronic components, without which the consumer qualities of the products cannot be called even approximately modern.

The sanctions almost knocked some people down, while others literally breathed a new life into them. Back in November 2021, UAZ CEO Adil Shirinov acknowledged the inevitable collapse of the car plant. At that time, neither the state defense order nor the relatively low prices for the products helped. Now things are different - there is no talk of closing UAZ, the plant is provided with defense orders, and all-terrain vehicles have virtually no competitors on the domestic market. The management is investing in production and feverishly looking for labor.

But with all this, the UAZs cost as much as cast-iron bridges. The "loaf", which is not even considered a car - it is an SGR or an unknown representative of the "special cargo series", costs from 1,2 million rubles. There is nothing surprising in this - car manufacturers, as one, took advantage of the discharged Russian car market and massively raised prices. And they continue to do so.

The Monocle publication took the trouble to calculate how much cars have become more expensive compared to the growth in real incomes of Russians. Between 2021 and 2023, the average salary increased by 1,44 times, and the average cost of a car rose to 2,96 million rubles. This is an increase of 1,77 times. At the same time, it is worth understanding that not the majority of Russians receive an average salary. Most receive a modal income, which is now two times lower than the average salary.

As a result, we come to the sad arithmetic, when the average Russian citizen will have to save up for a new car for at least 42 months. And not just save up, but put aside all of his individual income.

One should not take the statements of American capitalists as the norm, but Henry Ford once stated that the cost of a car should be equal to the annual salary of the average worker.


The current situation has been contributed to by the extremely expensive import substitution methods in Russian industry. Who, if not the consumer, should bear the costs?

This is true, but only partly. Let's look at Belarus as an example. It turns out that Russian Ladas are sold at a pretty good discount in the fraternal republic. Granta is 100 thousand rubles cheaper, and the Haval Jolion assembled in Russia is 200 thousand rubles cheaper. So there is potential to bring prices to an adequate level, but dealers and automakers cannot use it? Or do they not want to?

Winter Is Coming


All of the above could still be lived through with some conventionality. But a state initiative with a recycling fee appears. This is a rather ephemeral concept. Show me a person who has ever seen a working recycling program. And there is a fee for this recycling.

There is nothing surprising about this – this is how the state softly designates banal customs duties. They existed before, but now they are becoming truly prohibitive. From October 1, 2024, they will be raised by 75-80 percent. Now, for the import of an imported car with an engine capacity of 1 to 2 liters (a direct competitor to Togliatti products), you will have to pay 300 thousand rubles. Let us recall that this is called a recycling fee, that is, several hundred thousand rubles are planned to be spent on a run-down subcompact car sometime in the future. That's the arithmetic.

The only option for importing a car without paying the fee is personal use for a year. Only after that can the equipment be sold.

The state is introducing new rules of the game for a long time – the increase in the recycling fee will be staged and will reach its peak by 2030. If from October 1 it will be simply very expensive to buy a car imported from abroad, then in six years it will be economically unprofitable. The fee for import will be equal to the cost of the car itself.

By the way, if we compare the prices of new Chinese cars in their homeland and here, the stingy tears will flood the cheeks of car enthusiasts. The example with the Evolute i-Pro electric car assembled in Russia, which is called Dongfeng Aeolus in China, is extremely illustrative. Here it costs more than 3 million rubles, in China - a little more than 1 million rubles. Geely Coolray, a completely modern crossover, costs 2,3-2,5 million rubles in Russian car dealerships, and 900 thousand rubles in China. This, by the way, is the cost of the initial and extremely meager configuration of the Lada Granta. How can one not recall the famous phrase:

“The price of a product is not determined by the cost of its production, but by how much customers are willing to pay for it.”

The main goal of growing fees on foreign auto products is to stimulate the organization of production within Russia. And not just assembly from ready-made car kits, but work with maximum localization. Only the Tula Haval plant works like this, the rest are content with screwdriver assembly. Including Moskvich.

The second reason why the recycling fee is becoming prohibitive is AvtoVAZ. Despite the growth in car sales, the share of Togliatti equipment on the car market is decreasing. Ladas simply cannot compete with equipment from China. All previously introduced recycling fees were not effective - China sends cars to Russia that directly compete with Vestas in price, but are technically much more advanced.

A little more and cars capable of displacing the "cheap" "Granta" from the market will come into play. There is no point in explaining why this is dangerous. First, there will be massive layoffs in the industry, which will be partially offset by low unemployment in the country - people will simply leave for other industries. And then the death of the mass-market auto industry. Trucks, buses and UAZs will continue to be built; China does not yet have competitive advantages in this sector.


If we follow the logic of the authors of the recycling program, China will simply rush to Russia to build assembly plants. But in mid-September, the Chinese government officially advised against businesses building plants in Turkey, India, and, of course, Russia. The geopolitical risks are too high. It is not as risky, but still not recommended to locate assembly plants in Europe and Thailand. The Russian market is far from the highest priority for Chinese automakers.

The situation is as it is, and it is extremely contradictory. Consumers understand this very well and are sweeping everything out of car dealerships before the promised increase in fees. So far, only one thing is clear - the car in Russia is gradually turning into a luxury, the quality of which will increasingly lag behind world standards, and the cost will invariably increase.
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  1. +4
    29 September 2024 06: 15
    funny thing, instead of using furgons and jeeps from the army stocks in battle and sell armor on the civilian market, you could do the opposite, helping both the market and the army. the prices will decrease, and people would repair these themselves, recreating new skills. also, the preoccupation for dacia models that romanians abandoned 10 years ago and local 30 years old models became obsession and now religious worship, while alternative products from china, india, iran and even north korea look better. and the problem, like in the west (dumb European utilitarianism) is not the quality, but the cheap products that the local importers buy for maximum profit on the clients' account.
    funny, instead of using army surplus vans and jeeps in combat and selling the armor on the civilian market, you could do the opposite, helping both the market and the army. the prices would go down and people would repair them themselves, recreating new skills. also the obsession with dacia models that romanians abandoned 10 years ago and local models from 30 years ago has turned into an obsession and now a religious cult, while alternative products from china, india, iran and even north korea look better. and the problem, like in the west (stupid european utilitarianism), is not the quality, but the cheap stuff that local importers buy to make the most profit at the expense of customers.
    1. +1
      30 September 2024 20: 15
      [quote=Ionescu Popa]also the obsession with Dacia models, which Romanians abandoned 10 years ago,[/quote]
      These Dacias are distinguished by their quality.
      quote=Ionescu Popa]and local models from 30 years ago [/quote] These models are distinguished by their repairability. Don't go to a service center with clumsy and expensive mechanics, but fix it yourself in the garage. It seems like people have been taught since childhood not to be ashamed to tighten nuts.
      [quote=Ionescu Popa]as in the West (stupid European utilitarianism)[/quote]
      Utilitarianism can be interpreted as compliance with a social contract, when both citizens and the manufacturer and the state receive profit. Citizens - a modern, affordable and trouble-free car on time. The manufacturer - the stability of the enterprise. The state - compliance with the quality of life for itself and the people in itself.
      Or does your Romania still not understand what it wants from itself?
      1. -1
        30 September 2024 20: 30
        in fact "my romania" understands so well that sells u shit at price of gold, and those like u are grateful.
        as for the old soviet models, this is closer to the truth, but for the same reason you could empty the army stocks. the problem is the indolence of the industry, that doesn't want to invest, only to steal. it would be more honest to make similar engines and unified platforms, but with newer technologies, like uaz patriot or the new gaz line, which i like.
        1. 0
          30 September 2024 20: 40
          Quote: Ionescu Popa
          well that sells u shit at price of gold,

          For God's sake, you can think whatever you want. But apart from Dacia, there is nothing else for sale outside your "Romania Mare". You will continue to sit on subsidies.
          1. -1
            30 September 2024 20: 57
            good trick...u are owned by romanians, and now you pose as romanian-hater, like the contortionists in circus. sure, some take money for this, but the honest Russians who don't will lose with such attitude, and they kept losing for centuries; one of the nicest and most generous peoples of Europe was always tricked by trumps and thieves. as for the epithet i used for dacia, i heard it from an Ukrainian bcz everyone knows even poor countries make cheaper and better cars; when they don' have a gun at their head like they do now, they are less naive than Russians, God help both these people and punish their traitors!
            1. +1
              30 September 2024 22: 34
              so to be clear, i like very much the soviet and russian auto industry, they were original and dynamic in their times. but now, the industry is captured by the same slumber, incompetence and corruption visible in western europe.
          2. +1
            30 September 2024 21: 42
            i read you well, u didnt downvote this discussion, but attacked the leakages that damage the endeavors of your friends instead.
  2. +41
    29 September 2024 06: 53
    As in the famous joke: I told you the place is cursed, and you put your hands out of your ass...©

    That's how we live. What the Chinese drove for 20 years and what we drove. 20 years have passed... What the Chinese drive now and what we drive. Yesterday I watched a video on the Lisa Rulit channel, an interview with the chief PR man of AvtoVAZ. So he convolutedly veiled the plant's inability to create new high-quality models by saying that the plant produces classics. And everything would be fine if these ancient pieces of wood were at least assembled with high quality from high-quality parts.
    1. +15
      29 September 2024 14: 26
      Quote from: FoBoss_VM
      So he cleverly veiled the plant's inability to create new high-quality models by saying that the plant produces classics. And everything would be fine if these ancient firewoods were at least assembled qualitatively from high-quality parts.
      There was information in one of the threads about the dominance of migrant workers, so, AvtoVAZ in Russia is the largest customer of labor (migrant workers) from Central Asian countries. That is, they mainly work there.. And I have doubts that highly qualified specialists in the automotive industry, engineers, designers, etc. come from Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan. And the plant managers are smart enough only to come up with reasons to raise the price of their products and protect them from competitors by lobbying for customs decisions.
      1. +1
        29 September 2024 19: 16
        There are no large businessmen in Russia who are trying to conquer the market! Basically, our large factories tried to attach themselves to someone, so as not to bother themselves, just to earn money! There are no ideological businessmen.
        1. +15
          29 September 2024 20: 08
          Any large private Russian business always flows into the hands of the Power "Roof"...
          To the cops, office workers, officials.
          That's how it was in the 90s...
          This is how it is now.
        2. Alf
          +14
          29 September 2024 20: 54
          Quote: Eroma
          In Russia there are still no large businessmen who are trying to conquer the market!

          In Russia, there are no major businessmen in the true sense of the word. There are no people who raised their business to a high level, but there are those who grabbed a piece of the Soviet legacy and squeeze the last juices out of it.
          1. -2
            30 September 2024 12: 12
            Why is there Transas, 2GIS, Yandex?
            1. Alf
              +4
              30 September 2024 19: 15
              Quote: Oldrover
              Why is there Transas, 2GIS, Yandex?

              Industrialists?
              1. -2
                30 September 2024 21: 27
                How is Transas, which produces on-board equipment, various simulators, etc., not suitable, or Yandex, which deals with unmanned vehicles, delivery robots, etc.?
                1. Alf
                  +2
                  30 September 2024 21: 33
                  Quote: Oldrover
                  How is Transas, which produces on-board equipment, various simulators, etc., not suitable, or Yandex, which deals with unmanned vehicles, delivery robots, etc.?

                  Where is the production of group A?
                  1. -1
                    30 September 2024 22: 05
                    Initially you wrote about

                    In Russia there are no major businessmen in the true sense of the word. There are no people who raised their business to a high level on their own.


                    Now introduce new conditions, for example, Electrotex from Orel, which produces frequency converters for asynchronous electric drives, will it suit you or not?
                    Or Eltex from Novosibirsk producing network equipment. Or is this not a high enough level?
      2. 0
        1 October 2024 06: 58
        The planned cost of the electric Largus is from 3 million rubles, the cost of Tesla for Americans is 3,6 in rubles.
        At the same time, the backwardness of the auto industry is not only happening here; Ford has officially stated that they go to China for experience and are already lagging behind in development.
        And, for example, Volkswagen left not only Russia, but also Germany.
        1. +1
          Yesterday, 18: 30
          A small plus, this price does not include the subsidy that the state pays to VAZ, and it is 900000 of our rubles. And the final price is more than Tesla, fanfares.
      3. 0
        Yesterday, 08: 14
        The conveyor does not need skilled workers. The conveyor was designed that way. A worker must perform one or two operations skillfully (stupidly, like a robot), and this is not difficult to teach. With migrant workers, there is another problem - their attitude to work (this will do).
        1. +2
          Yesterday, 18: 15
          Quote: Ady66
          The assembly line does not require skilled workers.
          Attitude to work, isn't it important? For example, take furniture assembly. You don't need education to screw in a screw, but some people prefer not to screw in a screw, but just hammer it in, because it's faster. And it's the same on the conveyor: where it's not visible, instead of clamps - electrical tape, not degreasing the surface before painting, etc.
          1. 0
            Today, 07: 33
            Did I not write clearly?
            There is another problem with migrant workers - their attitude to work (it will do).
            1. 0
              Today, 08: 46
              Quote: Ady66
              Did I not write clearly?
              There is another problem with migrant workers - their attitude to work (it will do).
              Sorry, I didn't read carefully.
        2. 0
          Yesterday, 18: 33
          I was tested at the Toyota plant, where you have to be more than just a robot.
          1. 0
            Today, 07: 36
            Where is Toyota and where is AvtoVAZ
        3. 0
          Today, 12: 20
          Are you sure? The conveyor broke, what next? I hope you can guess who will blue it.
    2. +19
      29 September 2024 19: 43
      You know, in order to build a car factory in China, Western manufacturers are required to create a joint venture with a Chinese company, after which they are required to transfer all technologies, all production lines and all information to the Chinese side! Who has been preventing us from doing this all these years? Who are these traitors and enemies of the people! The director of AvtoVAZ should be held criminally liable. The Chinese will not build anything here, they will reduce the price by the amount of the scrap fee!
      1. Alf
        +11
        29 September 2024 20: 58
        Quote: BAT-MENT
        The director of AvtoVAZ should be held criminally liable

        Yeah, the director is the scapegoat... And not state policy at all... Its ideological inspirer died who knows how many years ago, but his business lives and prospers.
        1. +3
          29 September 2024 22: 22
          My God, a third of a century has passed. It's like blaming 41 on 905, blaming the damned tsarist regime for everything.
          1. +4
            30 September 2024 09: 46
            The communists at least complained about 1905, but the Putinists still cannot bear the weight of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
        2. 0
          30 September 2024 12: 29
          The most interesting thing is that this Gaidar was in power for a very short time, and these words about the machines are known only from the words of Nikolai Panichev, who held the posts after the collapse of the USSR

          Chairman of the Board of Directors of the industrial and trading house "Stankoinstrument", President of OJSC "Rosstankoinstrument Company", President of the Russian machine-tool company "Rosstankoinstrument".

          And it is not known whether Gaidar said this and in what context, but for example Putin said it quite specifically:


          At an extended meeting of the Board of the Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin spoke out against total import substitution and considers it necessary only in strategically important sectors of the economy.
          “I don’t think that import substitution is an end in itself,” Putin said.

          According to the Prime Minister, it is also unacceptable to talk about goods being produced in Russia that are no worse than those produced abroad.

          "This is already a vicious approach to solving the problem of innovative development. Which means no worse. We should do it cheaper and better. Or not do it at all. Maybe it would be easier to buy?" the prime minister noted.
          1. Alf
            +5
            30 September 2024 19: 17
            Quote: Oldrover
            “Perhaps it would be easier to buy?” the prime minister noted.

            Much easier. The sanctions in 2014 proved it.
      2. +4
        30 September 2024 04: 24
        Who are these traitors and enemies of the people!

        I understand that your question is rhetorical, the answer is known to everyone, it is our government, which “like a galley slave” “works” for the good of its people...
      3. -9
        30 September 2024 05: 15
        For a long time, the director of AvtoVAZ was the outsider Bo Andersson, his task was to ruin it. He ruined it and left.
        1. +3
          30 September 2024 09: 33
          And who is the director of UAZ? But the welders there are either always dead drunk or mentally ill people. Look at the welded seams of the bodywork...
          1. +1
            30 September 2024 10: 03
            He is sitting on subsidies, but he should be sitting somewhere else!
          2. +8
            30 September 2024 12: 36
            If you think that for a salary of $300 you will get excellent welding seams, then I will disappoint you :) This is a direct illustration of the saying: "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work." Your questions should not be addressed to the UAZ workers, but to the management and owners of the plant.
            1. 0
              Today, 12: 32
              But I don't agree with such a statement. You can skim as much as you want, but not on the product. If a worker does something wrong, he will do it for himself, which is called disqualification and I am not talking about the legal term.
              As for questions for the management, well, probably yes, there are more than enough greedy brutes at the top. But you can also come up with a lot of sabotage moments, even if you hang cameras all over the shop. But what does marriage have to do with it? If you start to slack off, you'll lose your qualifications.
              1. 0
                Today, 14: 10
                They often do sloppy work because they are put in certain conditions. There are no spare parts, consumables, tools. They start sabotaging, among other things, because of grievances and a sense of injustice. Often the quality of components on UAZ is absolute crap and the assembler at the plant has nothing to do with it. And the welds on Bukhalka are like that because the stamps and equipment are so worn out that the stamps are not installed in the right position. It has already reached the point where the body is welded with electrodes in some places... And don't say that the workers do this at their own discretion, and the management does not know.
                1. 0
                  Today, 14: 21
                  No, I won’t say, not knowing the situation, but I’m familiar with similar moments, like spread out and you need it more than I do.
          3. 0
            Today, 12: 24
            Well, someone accepts these products?
        2. +8
          30 September 2024 10: 03
          Boo Anderson was the one who brought order and put one normal model on stream, and that's why they fired him, they were afraid of negativity from the population!
          1. +11
            30 September 2024 12: 38
            Under Anderson, Granta, Vesta and X-Ray were produced. Not bad cars for the prices of those years. Now, for 2 million, only the insane buy these products.
          2. 0
            30 September 2024 15: 10
            Watch the documentary Russian Job 2017 about Bu Anderson's work at Avto VAZ. It seems to me that everything shown there is true!
        3. +7
          30 September 2024 10: 38
          Under Andersson, GAZ (he was in charge of GAZ before VAZ) began producing normal cars comparable to Western ones.
        4. +6
          30 September 2024 10: 40
          And before him, VAZ was a model of quality and a trendsetter in global automotive fashion? Was there anything to destroy? According to rumors, Bu started cutting costs, and his superiors didn't like it
          1. +2
            30 September 2024 22: 03
            Boo started chopping bones
            I read that there were many "managers" who, being relatives/friends, did not go to work at all, only receiving their paycheck.
        5. +6
          30 September 2024 12: 33
          Without Andersen we would still be driving Prioras and VAZ2107s. Fact.
        6. +7
          30 September 2024 13: 28
          Quote: AlexisT
          For a long time, the director of AvtoVAZ was the outsider Bo Andersson, his task was to ruin it. He ruined it and left.

          It was under him that they started making Vesta and Xray - before that, for 10 years, they converted 2110 into Priora, nothing more...
    3. +4
      1 October 2024 16: 27
      Quote from: FoBoss_VM
      What the Chinese drove for 20 years and what we drove.

      TopGear classics - what the Chinese auto industry produced, if I remember correctly, 15 years before copies of foreign cars:
  3. +40
    29 September 2024 07: 02
    . a car has long since become not a luxury, but a means of transportation

    It's just that for us, cars have become a luxury again.

    . a completely modern crossover, in Russian car dealerships it costs 2,3-2,5 million rubles, and in Chinese ones – 900 thousand rubles.

    Two worlds and two normalities. In one, the leaders try to make the cheapest and most accessible car for the citizens of their country. And in the other, it's the opposite. And what's most outrageous is that our salaries are much lower than in any other country that produces the cars we drive. It turns out to be a double blow to the citizen's desire to own a car.

    Why do this? And who came up with such an outrage? Ask our patriots in power. After all, in a country where patriotism is declared a national idea, everything should be done according to this.
    1. +42
      29 September 2024 07: 20
      We are simply obliged to taste and enjoy the delights of the cocktail "capitalism + patriotism". Those who do not want to - are forced.
      1. +5
        30 September 2024 12: 41
        Capitalism + patriotism = fascism. An old, proven, working scheme.
    2. bar
      -19
      29 September 2024 08: 30
      Why do this? And who came up with such an outrage?

      And does it not occur to you that all these duties and disposal fees are intended to replenish the state budget in the context of huge expenses for the war? If the wealthy part of the population is ready to voluntarily fork out 3+ million for a Chinese tin can, it would be a sin not to take advantage of this and take half of it into the budget. This is much more humane than robbing the poor part of the population by raising prices on essential items.
      1. +46
        29 September 2024 08: 46
        More than half of those buying for 3 million buy China on credit, despite the crazy rates. Those who turn over millions and all sorts of pseudo-stars buy new BMWs and don't care about their price.
        1. bar
          -20
          29 September 2024 08: 52
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          More than half of those buying for 3 million in China buy on credit, despite the outrageous rates.

          This is a personal matter for the majority, if in addition to supporting the budget, they are ready to feed fat bankers. Just don't tell them how they need a car to live and how impossible it is to live without one, that for this they need to get into bank bondage. For those who simply need a car, there are many options, from the domestic auto industry to the used market.
          1. +25
            29 September 2024 11: 02
            Quote: bar
            For those who simply need a car, there are many options, ranging from domestic auto industry

            Excuse me, did you come out of your lethargic sleep yesterday? AvtoVAZ products have skyrocketed in price by as much as two times. What options are you talking about?

            Quote: bar
            ending with the used market.

            The used market here is not standing still either. And to import from abroad:

            Quote from turembo
            I bought it in Japan for 189 thousand rubles, a small car from 2011, with a mileage of 30 thousand. I paid another 150 thousand for delivery to Vladivostok. I gave almost another 600 thousand for various fees and duties.
          2. +2
            29 September 2024 11: 29
            It's better to buy an old "Chinese" than to take out a loan. I drive a 2008 Geely MK.
            1. -10
              29 September 2024 16: 48
              No way. I don't need either a new one or an old Chinese one, for example. I prefer the backward domestic auto industry, but new.
              Right now I'm on Granta (I bought it in 2020) and I have a choice - either Vesta or Iskra, the release of which is scheduled for early 2025.
              1. +21
                29 September 2024 19: 54
                Quote: Alexey Alexandrovich
                I prefer the backward domestic auto industry, but new.

                Buy a UAZ, for all lovers of masochism it is beyond competition today! The quality of UAZs was not great even in the USSR, but it turns out that you can do much worse! wassat
                1. -4
                  29 September 2024 19: 57
                  I thought about it. I don't need a UAZ. I drive on good roads. And the fuel consumption is crazy. Vesta is the best. Or Largus.
                2. -4
                  30 September 2024 10: 15
                  A very narrow, selective understanding of masochism. Another, also commonly used one - optimizations, (pension) reforms, etc. - is not worth the honor of this name.
                  How many admire foreign quality and despise their own. I would like to ask these connoisseurs - why don't you make good cars yourselves, are you clumsy or brainless?
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2024 11: 37
                    Quote: Alexander Ra
                    How many admire foreign quality and despise their own. I would like to ask these connoisseurs - why don't you make good cars yourselves, are you clumsy or brainless?

                    You think cool!)))
                    The chief designer comes to his workplace on Monday and bangs his fist on the table... Let me make an EXCELLENT, modern and competitive car. And let him call the subordinate engineers and give them orders! And they slog away at the drawings day and night. It doesn't matter that there are 1,5 excavators there, and half of them are uneducated or without experience. Then these brilliant drawings get to the brilliant technologists, and they, on the basis of their own production park, organize mass production of a competitor to the Mercedes C class, only three times cheaper... Is that how it happens?
                    Or should the top management, the owner of the plant clearly understand what he wants to produce, what quality, at what prices. And then invest in the full production cycle, from the chief designer to the last draftsman, from the chief technologist to the last fitter, from the most advanced CNC machining centers to the press-stamping and painting shop?
                    So WHERE can we get such managers/owners in this country, if the top brass is filled with mediocre talentless people, who, due to their impudence and arrogance, managed to snatch fragments of a huge country in the 90s, and now, by inertia, are simply pumping resources from the depths of the Russian Federation. Do you think they need this AvtoVAZ and the result from it?
                    1. +2
                      30 September 2024 12: 10
                      To be in disgrace – even Soviet Moskvichs, Zhiguli, Izhi, AN-2, etc. are not capable of reproducing, while super-scrupulously, multi-page evaluations of foreign cars in reviews – a bug clicked here, there is another drawback there… Ah, Ukrainians dream of Euro-panties. Maybe Russia has escaped the infection of spitting in one’s own and being touched by someone else’s? Sleepy infantilism.
                  2. +3
                    30 September 2024 14: 39
                    Why don't you make good cars yourselves, are you clumsy or brainless?


                    You probably think you live in 1900. That's when an individual engineer in Germany, France or the US could create a car company in a garage and start producing and developing. But in the Russian Empire, it was impossible to do this. Wake up. It's 2024. China has been investing billions for decades to boost its auto industry.
              2. +7
                30 September 2024 12: 58
                So that's who buys domestic VAZs for 1.5-2 million :) Don't you feel sorry for your work? Your time? When Vesta cost 700 thousand, it was basically normal. But now it costs from 1.6 million empty. Granta in 2011 generally cost from 240 thousand. And now in salons they don't sell for less than a million. They profit from you, and you are happy about it.
                1. 0
                  30 September 2024 13: 21
                  Quote: cast iron
                  So that's who buys domestic VAZs for 1.5-2 million :) Don't you feel sorry for your work? Your time? When Vesta cost 700 thousand, it was basically normal. But now it costs from 1.6 million empty. Granta in 2011 generally cost from 240 thousand. And now in salons they don't sell for less than a million. They profit from you, and you are happy about it.

                  Do you think you won’t feel sorry for your work and time when another Black Monday hits, or something like that, and all your measly savings go down the drain?
                  So there is a high probability that you will lose your money, and the price of your car and real estate will increase by another 5 times...
                  Do you know how glad I was that at the end of 21 I got a good loan, but bought a brand new Mazda 6, although even then all cars were getting more expensive, following the devaluation of the ruble, and the dealers in car dealerships were adding another 10% to the price with all sorts of extras? Now this Mazda, even used, costs twice as much as that price.
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2024 15: 14
                    By buying a car you do not save money. Due to inflation, purchasing power is lost anyway. A personal car is always an expense and a loss.
                    1. +1
                      30 September 2024 16: 11
                      Quote: cast iron
                      By buying a car you do not save money. Due to inflation, purchasing power is lost anyway. A personal car is always an expense and a loss.

                      Firstly, it is still BETTER than simply giving them away to smart functionaries, as happened in the early 90s. Even putting the car on bricks in the garage would be better in this situation.
                      Secondly, I have already given an example. My car has become TWICE as expensive in three years, even taking into account the mileage of 80 thousand km. So at least I did not lose my money. And taking into account the inflation of all other goods and services, I would have even exaggerated a little, if I was going to sell it. But the thing is that I really need it myself.
                      1. 0
                        Today, 12: 48
                        It has become more expensive in rubles, but the ruble is not standing still. Only gold and something like that can give some kind of cushion. And about your car, well, calculate how much you had to put into it in 2 years. A car is not capital at all.
                        Let's start with the main thing: a car is convenient.
                      2. 0
                        Today, 13: 00
                        Quote: Alexander Salenko
                        It has become more expensive in rubles, but the ruble is not standing still.

                        Well, the dollar has definitely not doubled in price over these three years. Somewhere around 1,5 times, as has probably been the inflation rate over three years, 50% in the Russian Federation.
                        Quote: Alexander Salenko
                        Only gold and something like that can provide some kind of cushion.

                        I didn't talk about a cushion, but about how not to lose savings at all. Gold, I don't know, drop the 0% VAT on it, and it doesn't grow that fast. Although if we're talking about savings for decades, then yes.
                        Quote: Alexander Salenko
                        Your car, well, calculate how much you had to put into it in 2 years.

                        Well, if you commute to work and on vacation, like me, then not much more than all this would be by public transportation and taxi. If you don't commute, but park it on bricks in the garage, then not at all)))
                        Quote: Alexander Salenko
                        A car is not capital at all.

                        Where did I say otherwise? This is not really the point. What is at issue is that there are suspicions that we are on the verge of a big mess in the economy. And how can an ant, in a world of bears and whales, not lose its pennies and at least stay with something? Real estate is not bad either, but the prices there are astronomical. But on the other hand, it can be rented out.
                        Quote: Alexander Salenko
                        Let's start with the main thing: a car is convenient.

                        This is definitely true. And a good car is also comfortable and painless.
                      3. 0
                        Today, 13: 04
                        I also use public transport and quite actively., in my city without a car - I don't see any problems. rather the opposite. And to go to the sea, fortunately it's not far for me, to collect water from a cool spring, so as not to drink from the tap, well and so on.
                      4. 0
                        Today, 13: 28
                        Quote: Alexander Salenko
                        I also use public transport and quite actively.

                        I do NOT use public transportation. Only in extreme cases. I live in the suburbs of St. Petersburg, and it is 45 km to work for me. By car, I get there in 40 minutes, an hour at most, if there is traffic. By public transportation, I get there in one hour and 40 minutes, in the best case. Losing two hours of your life every working day on buses and the metro is not much fun)))
                      5. +1
                        Today, 13: 31
                        I see, it takes me 40 minutes to walk to my mom's, although we live in different parts of the city. In your case, you can't walk there.
                  2. 0
                    30 September 2024 16: 15
                    Quote: Zoer
                    Do you know how glad I was that at the end of 21 I got a good loan, but bought a brand new Mazda 6, although even then all cars were becoming more expensive, following the devaluation of the ruble, and the dealers in car dealerships were adding another 10% to the price with all sorts of extras?

                    so when you pay for it - the price due to the interest on the loan will be at least 2 times higher than the showroom price, but for a car that has been around for many years) the car is relatively profitable, you can only buy it for cash in our conditions, but not on credit.. so in fact you have NOTHING won, unlike banks
                    1. +1
                      30 September 2024 20: 34
                      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
                      so when you pay for it - the price due to the interest on the loan will be at least 2 times higher than the showroom price, but for a car that has been around for many years) the car is relatively profitable, you can only buy it for cash in our conditions, but not on credit.. so in fact you have NOTHING won, unlike banks

                      Oh, come on!))) In 21, the rate on a car loan was 13%))) Now inflation is MORE, no matter what the officials say. In three years, I overpaid 39%, and the car went up in price by 100%.
                      Now it is clear, the rate has been raised, in the best case they will give a car loan at 25%. In 3 years plus three quarters. So they raised it so that demand would stop, and people would not take loans at a rate, well below inflation)))
          3. 0
            Today, 12: 41
            Oh, you got so many minuses, but I agree. There is public transport, there are markets nearby, well, in Simferopol at least, at worst there is a taxi. In the summer we go shopping on electric trains. I once rode for an hour, on foot at that time, it took 40 minutes, well now it takes about 50. We went there as boys.
        2. bar
          -17
          29 September 2024 10: 17
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          More than half of those buying for 3 million in China buy on credit, despite the outrageous rates.

          Is someone forcing them to do this? Just don't tell me that it's impossible to live without a Chinese tin can for 3+ million. If a car is necessary for life, there are other options, including domestic auto industry and used ones. If a craftsman needs a hammer for work, it is not at all necessary to pay for a fashionable hammer with rhinestones. Sometimes it is enough to clean the old grandfather's from rust and replace the rotten handle.
          1. +18
            29 September 2024 11: 08
            Quote: bar
            If a car is necessary for life, there are other options, including the domestic auto industry

            If a car is necessary, then there is no option with the domestic auto industry. Because a car is necessary.
            1. +7
              29 September 2024 19: 51
              I agree that the problem was all these years to make a 5-7 seater Niva with all-wheel drive, with an automatic, and install a powerful diesel engine! In the end, these units could have been purchased and manufactured under license. I won't even mention the design.
              1. Alf
                +9
                29 September 2024 21: 14
                Quote: BAT-MENT
                install a powerful diesel engine!

                Where can I get it? Put it in B-2?
                Quote: BAT-MENT
                These units could be purchased and produced under license.

                And who will sell the license?
                If you haven't noticed, no one has been selling licenses to anyone for the last 20 years. It is much more profitable to create, as they used to say, a "joint venture" and then suck the juices. And besides the juices, there is another point - for example, a gearbox manufacturer like Tsanradfabrik said that they can build their plant in any country in the world, but on the condition that the main part will be produced only in Germany and in case of any disloyalty of the country-assembler, its cars will be left without gearboxes, which is what happened to KAMAZ after the start of the SVO.
                1. +4
                  30 September 2024 13: 00
                  And taking an old Japanese or Renault diesel as a basis, copying it, adding minor "improvements" to bypass the license, did her religion allow it?
                  1. +5
                    30 September 2024 13: 31
                    Quote: cast iron
                    And taking an old Japanese or Renault diesel as a basis, copying it, adding minor "improvements" to bypass the license, did her religion allow it?

                    No. The impenetrable stupidity and greed of those in power did not allow and does not allow it.
                2. +2
                  30 September 2024 15: 06
                  Well, Chrysler sold the Volga Spider license without any problems. It was a good project and affordable. But marketing was a no-no, and copying is still a thing. Any Japanese company would have sold a license in the early 2000s to produce obsolete engines, and that would have been a breakthrough for us. But laziness, greed, and stupidity won out...
                  1. Alf
                    0
                    30 September 2024 19: 10
                    Quote: BAT-MENT
                    So Chrysler sold the license for the Volga Spider without any problems.

                    Because he himself didn’t know where to put it.
              2. +7
                29 September 2024 22: 28
                Because 1) we don't have our own powerful diesel engine 2) we don't have our own automatic transmission 3) the Niva transmission isn't designed for a powerful engine. This needs to be a new car.
                1. +1
                  30 September 2024 05: 11
                  Well, who prevented all this from being done in 30 years?
                  1. +2
                    30 September 2024 09: 27
                    Write the address for your question - "Moscow, Kremlin, to Putin". hi
                  2. 0
                    30 September 2024 10: 29
                    Are you sure that the car you mentioned will be in demand? After all, it won't be cheap - the market is small. And only desperate patriots will buy it at the price of some Monjaro
                    1. +3
                      30 September 2024 13: 37
                      Quote from Sumotori_380
                      After all, it won’t be cheap – the market is small.

                      What does the market have to do with it? 200-300 thousand copies won't sell out? That's how long expensive press-die tooling goes around, and it pays for itself completely in this series.
                      Monjaro costs so much only because of duties and recycling fees. Plus they buy energy and raw materials from us. For our auto industry, all this is cheaper a priori. If we also make tax breaks, energy tariffs, credit rates for the manufacturer, and moderate the appetites of efficient and other beneficiaries, then the price will be quite normal.
                      1. 0
                        30 September 2024 14: 57
                        Developing a new engine, a new gearbox is a very expensive business. Auto giants are switching to a system of unified platforms precisely to reduce costs. And the cost of developing a modern car is 2-3 billion dollars. At least. Divide 3 billion by 300000 - you get ten per unit. This is only R&D. Production and sales will at least double, or even triple the price. Are you preparing to buy a new domestic car for 3 million? When there are Chinese ones for the same price?
                      2. +2
                        30 September 2024 16: 07
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Developing a new engine, a new gearbox is a very expensive business. Auto giants are switching to a system of unified platforms precisely to reduce costs. And the cost of developing a modern car is 2-3 billion dollars. At least. Divide 3 billion by 300000 - you get ten per unit. This is only R&D. Production and sales will at least double, or even triple the price. Are you preparing to buy a new domestic car for 3 million? When there are Chinese ones for the same price?

                        Platforms are great, of course. Yes, they are expensive. So why can't ours invest in their own platform and release 3-5 models of one brand on it, and also transfer this platform to a second brand. You say 3 billion dollars? So our partners stole 300 billion. What was the great geostrategist thinking, at least since 2014? And the development of a platform is not divided into 300 units, but much, much more. Our AvtoVAZ sells 000 cars a year alone, and by and large there are TWO different engines, one of which is from the Fiat 350th, the second from the 000th family. And the same with gearboxes. And yes, why do you think that investments in a new platform should pay off in the FIRST year of car sales? Only we have such a wild approach. With such thinking, of course, you should not take on anything.
                      3. 0
                        30 September 2024 16: 19
                        You were the first to write about the equipment, which will pay for itself after the release of 300000 units. Like, if we release 300000, then we will pay for everything. I used your figure.
                      4. +1
                        30 September 2024 20: 36
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        You were the first to write about the equipment, which will pay for itself after the release of 300000 units. Like, if we release 300000, then we will pay for everything. I used your figure.

                        So you're telling me about the platform's R&D, for 3 billion dollars. That's why I'm saying that it's not correct to divide the platform's development by 300 thousand. We're only dividing the setup of the production line by 300 thousand.
                        R&D is an investment that lasts for decades.
                      5. 0
                        30 September 2024 16: 22
                        For the second brand - which one? In theory, we have one passenger car manufacturer left - VAZ. UAZ is a very small plant with niche products.
                      6. +1
                        30 September 2024 20: 40
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        For the second brand - which one? In theory, we have one passenger car manufacturer left - VAZ. UAZ is a very small plant with niche products.

                        So give UAZ a new platform, let it expand)))
                        But the thing is that when the country produces only 50 million bearings of all types per year, which barely satisfies the needs of a modern AvtoVAZ, then it is strange to talk about any development at all. Although back in 2000 we produced 250 million bearings. Such are the continuous victories for a quarter of a century.
                      7. -1
                        30 September 2024 20: 43
                        Give it to me? Did they declare communism this morning?)
                      8. +1
                        30 September 2024 20: 48
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Give it to me? What, did they declare communism this morning?

                        Obviously, in order to give it, it must first be developed, i.e., it is necessary to invest 3 billion dollars, and obtain the required result. But this is precisely the problem. And not the lack of a market and willing buyers
                      9. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 52
                        Well, actually, given the "wealth" of automakers in Russia, there will be no end to those wishing to buy the platform)
                      10. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 50
                        Do I need to fly to Alpha Centauri? 3 billion... They know how to saw there too...
                      11. 0
                        30 September 2024 16: 25
                        The market has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you look, all the significant modern manufacturers are transnational giants selling in different countries. And even on different continents. And even they cooperate with each other - like Fiat with Chrysler or Nissan with Renault. Only the Chinese and Indians work strictly within their countries. Well, they have a large domestic market. And the Chinese are already entering the international market. There are small manufacturers in the world, like the Iranian ones. Well, their cars have the same quality as our VAZ.
                      12. Alf
                        +3
                        30 September 2024 19: 14
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        And the Chinese are already entering the international market.

                        What's stopping AvtoVAZ from doing the same? Not going to advanced countries, but to Africa and South America?
                      13. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 10
                        Apparently, there is no desire to set up pre- and post-sales. You need to invest quite a bit
                      14. Alf
                        0
                        30 September 2024 20: 12
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Apparently, there is no desire to set up pre- and post-sales. You need to invest quite a bit

                        So that's exactly what "lack of desire" is, you have to work, use your brain...
                      15. 0
                        1 October 2024 02: 34
                        Africa lives on Asian bushels. Do you think the Sahel nomad is very solvent? The situation with South American buyers is only slightly better. And they still have to transport the goods by car carrier to the other side of the world.
                        The real buyers are the Chinese and Indians.
                      16. 0
                        Yesterday, 07: 23
                        The complete lack of competitiveness is a hindrance. Both AvtoVAZ and UAZ can only survive due to huge duties on foreign cars. If duties are abolished, these factories will close even before the work shift ends. Because no reasonable person will buy their products. Personally, I don’t need AvtoVAZ knockoffs even for 500. For this money, it’s better to buy a 000-year-old Japanese car, which will be better equipped than a new Zhiguli and will last many times longer and with fewer problems during operation.
                      17. 0
                        Today, 13: 01
                        There is no need to present your preferences as the truth, I have a Niva and I have no complaints about it. My wife hung a sticker: you drive fast, and I go everywhere.. Yes, interlocutor, the Japanese have also started to lose quality for about 10 years, maybe a little less, they were the last ones to hold on.
                      18. 0
                        Today, 12: 57
                        I watched the movie The Corsican with Jean Reno, and he was driving around in a Niva.
                      19. -1
                        30 September 2024 20: 43
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        There are small manufacturers in the world like the Iranian ones. Well, their cars have the same quality as our VAZ.

                        You just mentioned the Iranians at the right time. It doesn't matter that their population is 1,5 times smaller. And their technological capabilities were non-existent 30 years ago. With all that, they are comparable to us in this matter. A very illustrative example. Thank you! hi
                      20. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 44
                        Well, Iranian cars are just endlessly re-badged Peugeots. So don't exaggerate their merits.
                      21. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 50
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Well, Iranian cars are just endlessly re-badged Peugeots. So don't exaggerate their merits.

                        Well, let them convert Peugeot, Renault, Tavota and Mitsubishi here. Am I against it? Or do you want to say that Peugeot supplies components to Iranians? laughing
                      22. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 55
                        I want to say that there is no particular development in such production. It is just marking time. What claims can be made against VAZ then?
                      23. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 01
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        I want to say that there is no particular development in such production. It is just marking time. What claims can be made against VAZ then?

                        This is a fundamentally incorrect conclusion.
                        Firstly, you also need to be able to rip off. Secondly, it is still the development of your own mechanical engineering, your own engineering school, your own production capacities. Thirdly, China was doing exactly the same thing 20 years ago. Look at them now.
                        This is what AvtoVAZ is doing, still using Fiat 124 units, this is marking time, and for half a century now.
                        And for 30 years they have been using their second platform, the 10th family)))
                      24. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 04
                        1) Iran didn't rip off, there was licensed production there from the start. Direct analogy with VAZ. 2) So in Iran it's about the same - thirty years of sawing up the original licensed Peugeots
                      25. +1
                        30 September 2024 21: 12
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        1) Iran didn't rip it off, there was licensed production there from the start. Direct analogy with VAZ

                        Well done! Although they could have been sitting on oil and gas...
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        2) So in Iran it’s about the same - thirty years of sawing up the original licensed Peugeots

                        I don't know what's going on with their models now, but when I first saw their Samand 15 years ago, I was shocked... by our wretchedness! Let me remind you, at that time we didn't have Vesta or Khrey, only Priors arrived! fellow
                      26. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 42
                        So the prototype was not bad. The Peugeot 405 was one of the leaders in its class.
                      27. +1
                        30 September 2024 21: 50
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        So the prototype was not bad. The Peugeot 405 was one of the leaders in its class.

                        What year did they buy the license for that prototype? And look at what they are doing now, and what we are doing. Where is Iran, and where are we? How many years has Iran been under sanctions, and how many have we been?
                      28. -1
                        30 September 2024 21: 55
                        There's nothing good there. Junk in pretty packaging.
                      29. +1
                        30 September 2024 21: 59
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        There's nothing good there. Junk in pretty packaging.

                        Have you driven it to say that? At the very least, the class of the car there is higher than Vesta, and probably even higher than Aura, which will cost from 3 million.
                      30. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 00
                        I read the tests with interest.
                      31. +1
                        30 September 2024 22: 13
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        I read the tests with interest.

                        When I watched with interest the reviews and read the tests of all the cars that I owned, I was always amazed at where all these experts come from!? laughing
                      32. +1
                        30 September 2024 22: 17
                        Every expert is different. I trust the journalists of Autoreview quite a bit. One of the few professional auto buildings on our market. Alas, it is dying - few people need sensible journalism, the market is flooded with bloggers, bloggers and TikTokers. And if journalists write that the exhibition model is shagreen, then it means that the manufacturer's production culture is in trouble. P.S. By the way, they praised Samand. Although this was more praise for its dad - Peugeot 405. But the manufacturer left Russia, throwing the owners
                      33. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 02
                        A car is valuable not only in itself. It is valuable in terms of resale value on the secondary market. In terms of cost of ownership. In terms of ease and speed of ordering components and performing repairs. In all of this, Iranian cars are dark horses.
                      34. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 10
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        A car is valuable not only in itself. It is valuable in terms of resale value on the secondary market. In terms of cost of ownership. In terms of ease and speed of ordering components and performing repairs. In all of this, Iranian cars are dark horses.

                        This is what they are like for us. Obviously, just like our shitty crafts are for them)))
                        I remembered one "wonderful" car of our car. We had one like that in the late 00s, a Tagaz Tiger, a heeled SUV. People bought them, fishermen, hunters... It seemed like a good cross-country vehicle. But when it came to repairs, it turned into a nightmare, there are no spare parts for them at all!!! Now I don't see a single one like that on the roads.
                      35. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 12
                        Because the SsangYong company seems to have died. Well, or got very sick. And it has no time to promote its products in Russia.
                      36. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 19
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Because the SsangYong company seems to have died. Well, or got very sick. And it has no time to promote its products in Russia.

                        SsangYong supplied cars to the Russian Federation until 2022. Kyrons, Rextons, and some other SUVs and pickups. It wasn't about the Koreans, that's for sure.
                      37. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 20
                        Well, or the plant in Taganrog itself went bankrupt. I don't remember anymore. The Tager was a SsangYong Korando. And the Road Partner is an old SsangYong Musso.
                      38. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 26
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Well, or the plant itself in Taganrog went bankrupt. I don't remember anymore.

                        The plant was still producing new Tigers, but there were no spare parts. I can't see anything here except the cretinism of TagAZ managers.
                      39. 0
                        Yesterday, 07: 38
                        That it is stuck in the middle of the last century. If AvtoVAZ copies the same 2000 Corolla with the same quality, it will be a revolution for it, an event of planetary scale, like a flight into space. The same thing if UAZ manages to copy the same 90th Prado, or even the 78.
                        And what kind of miracle will it be if copies of the 300 Kruzak or Crown appeared? In order to start developing something new and competitive, we first need to at least reach the current level of the industry leaders. But for now we have basins for 2 million and horrors for 3.
                    2. Alf
                      +1
                      30 September 2024 19: 11
                      Quote from Sumotori_380
                      After all, it won’t be cheap – the market is small.

                      Hello Vadim237, are you back?
                      1. -1
                        30 September 2024 20: 08
                        Alas, but you are mistaken. That's how it is
                      2. Alf
                        +1
                        30 September 2024 20: 11
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Alas, but you are mistaken. That's how it is

                        I wasn't mistaken, I was just kidding. The thing is (by the way, you didn't catch him?) that to all the offers to start producing something in Russia, Vadik always answered that the sales market is small, the price will be prohibitive and in general it is not profitable to produce anything in Russia.
                      3. -1
                        30 September 2024 20: 13
                        I think there is a fair amount of truth in this.
                      4. Alf
                        +3
                        30 September 2024 20: 20
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        I think there is a fair amount of truth in this.

                        There is no truth in this. Remember how Japanese cars penetrated the American market. AMERICA of the 50-60s!. How the Americans laughed at them then, at these stools. And where are the Japanese cars now and where are the American ones? How the Chinese got into the world arms market, where by that time everything was divided up and down. It's just that for this you need several things - government support, accessible loans-finances and a desire to get into any .... ass without soap, and not stupidly sit on the valve and repeat the same mantras.
                      5. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 42
                        You are confusing two things. The influence of market size and the influence of government support. Market size matters. Always. That is why, by the way, the USSR started CMEA. To expand the market. And to tie neighboring countries to its products and standards. But the success of market expansion depends, among other things, on government patronage.
                      6. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 23
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        That's why, by the way, the USSR started CMEA. To expand the market. And to tie neighboring countries to its products and standards. But the success of market expansion depends, among other things, on the protection of the state.

                        Are you kidding me? The USSR couldn't even satisfy the needs of its citizens, practically in any technology, except for bicycles, and that was a stretch.
                        The CMEA was created to help the countries of the socialist camp. For the unification and standardization of production. But not for the sales market.
                      7. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 43
                        For standardization of production! Oh! This is the best way to bind the buyer.
                      8. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 52
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        For standardization of production! Oh! This is the best way to bind the buyer.

                        This is nonsense. The buyer has nothing to do with it. Here are research institutes and design bureaus, factories and plants, yes. And only developing countries, which were brought to higher standards, benefit from this.
                      9. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 58
                        Why? Try to switch Turkey to domestic weapons. You'll wear out seven pairs of boots. Because they are based on NATO standards. And it's easier to throw everything out and start from scratch than to integrate any of our weapons systems into them.
                      10. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 04
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Why? Try to switch Turkey to domestic weapons. You'll wear out seven pairs of boots. Because they are based on NATO standards. And it's easier to throw everything out and start from scratch than to integrate any of our weapons systems into them.

                        You have not quite correctly understood my messages about standards. Any NATO country produces ITS OWN weapons, from small arms to frigates. And the same Turkey has its own frigates, its own artillery systems. And France and Germany, etc. But all these weapons are tailored to uniform standards of calibers, cartridges, etc., etc. A standard is a purely intellectual thing, and not even the property of one state.
                        And yes, the Turks have adapted the S-400 quite well)))
                        The USSR did approximately the same thing in the VD countries.
                      11. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 08
                        But the NATO standard did not fall from the sky. And it was not given by God's permission. Someone actively promoted and promotes it. And I can even guess who. And - absolutely right - this is exactly what the Union did in the VD countries - promoting its standards. And the purchase of S-400 by the Turks was, as an option, a way to put pressure on the States - so that they would sell the Penguin
                      12. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 17
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        But the NATO standard did not fall from the sky. And it was not given by God's permission. Someone actively promoted and promotes it. And I can even guess who. And - absolutely right - this is exactly what the Union did in the VD countries - promote its standards.

                        That's right. Only it was more beneficial for Poland or Czechoslovakia, and for Turkey or France.
                      13. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 19
                        There is mutual benefit. The buyer gets a quality product. The manufacturer gets a situation in which it is difficult for the buyer to switch to competitors.
                      14. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 24
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        There is mutual benefit. The buyer gets a quality product. The manufacturer gets a situation in which it is difficult for the buyer to switch to competitors.

                        So the manufacturer in each country is ITS OWN! What buyer will jump off from where? The standard is free for all manufacturers! And production according to the same standards in different countries is advantageous in that at any time you can use foreign-made components in your production if you have problems. No one is putting anyone on anything.
                      15. 0
                        30 September 2024 22: 31
                        No wonder all NATO members buy F-35s. Because NATO fighters are produced by the French and the Swedes, besides the US. Tanks are produced by exactly five countries - the US, Britain, Germany, Turkey and France. Submarines are produced by the Americans, Germans, French and British. Maybe also the Italians. All sorts of Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Finland, the countries of the socialist camp are forced to take what they are given.
                      16. 0
                        1 October 2024 09: 47
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        No wonder all NATO members buy F-35s. Because NATO fighters are produced by the French and the Swedes, besides the US. Tanks are produced by exactly five countries - the US, Britain, Germany, Turkey and France. Submarines are produced by the Americans, Germans, French and British. Maybe also the Italians. All sorts of Spain, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Finland, the countries of the socialist camp are forced to take what they are given.

                        You are confusing cause and effect))) Everyone buys Fu-35 from the Americans, only because no one except the Americans can develop and produce anything similar. Standards have nothing to do with it.
                        Look, on your fingers, simplified. There is an international standard IPC, but the leaders there are Americans, just like in NATO. This is a standard for designing electronic devices. This standard is used by EVERYONE in the world, from developers to quality control inspectors. And our company is among them. No one pays anyone money for this. But this single standard also produces technological equipment that meets the production of products according to these standards. And even equipment according to these standards can be produced by anyone, including the Russian Federation. No one obliges anyone to do anything. And even when certifying products on the world market, you can freely refer to this standard if your products meet the requirements.
                        So, don’t talk nonsense about standards and sales markets.
                      17. 0
                        1 October 2024 10: 09
                        Don't attribute your stupidity to me. I never wrote anywhere that you have to pay for using standards. The point is that spreading standards to others is akin to soft power. You involve a country in your sphere of influence, tying it to yourself with a lot of threads. Including common standards. As an example, the standard for designing electronic devices. It is Western. And therefore, among other things, all developments go from us to them, and not vice versa. And the most successful specialists are also moving in this direction.
                      18. 0
                        1 October 2024 10: 40
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Don't attribute your stupidity to me. I never wrote anywhere that you have to pay for using standards.

                        I didn't attribute these words to you. I was saying that no market conquest can and does not occur through standards! And you were saying the opposite.
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        You involve the country in your sphere of influence, tying it to yourself with a lot of threads. Including common standards. As an example, the standard for designing electronic devices. It is Western.

                        This conclusion is far-fetched and has nothing to do with capturing the market.
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        And that is why, among other things, all developments go from us to them, and not the other way around. And the most successful specialists are also moving in this direction.

                        Again, what does the market have to do with it? Why are you mixing everything together? Specialists go from us to them not because of the standards. But because of the better conditions for work and life there, first of all. Even Soviet developers, who did not know Western standards at all, were quite in demand there, if they were really highly qualified. The example of Alexey Pazhitny is very illustrative.
                        And yes, with the help of high standards you can PROTECT YOUR market from the influx of cheap junk. But this is only a temporary measure until the competitor raises his level)))
                      19. +2
                        30 September 2024 21: 28
                        Quote: Alf
                        How the Chinese got into the global arms market, where by that time everything was divided up and down.

                        How did the Chinese get into the telecom equipment market? Huawei was a modest, small, but completely Chinese company. Then the state poured billions into them, now it is a global giant...

                        Quote: Alf
                        It's just that for this you need a few things - government support, accessible loans and finances, and the desire to get into any kind of... ass without soap, and not stupidly sit on the faucet and repeat the same mantras.

                        Golden words! hi
                      20. -1
                        30 September 2024 20: 55
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        I think there is a fair amount of truth in this.

                        There is no share in this. I have already written above what series is needed to recoup the expendable technological elements of production. R & D, development of units and platforms - these are investments for a decade, this is the development of the industry as a whole. This does not lend itself to direct calculation of payback. Yes, to do all this almost from scratch, it is not easy. This is a task at the level of a national project. But as we know, they have an unpleasant tendency. Constantly fail.
                      21. 0
                        30 September 2024 20: 59
                        Everything can be calculated. It's just that neither you nor I are experts in this area. And, by the way, R&D cannot be stopped. You will have to invest and invest in it. To stay in place, you have to run as fast as you can (c)
                      22. 0
                        30 September 2024 21: 07
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        Everything can be calculated. It's just that neither you nor I are experts in this area.

                        Everything, but not everything. No one will give forecasts for 20-30 years ahead. And such specialists do not exist. But I am quite involved in R&D, which determines the development strategy of our company. And I developed products that were eventually released in a million copies. So, that...
                        Quote from Sumotori_380
                        You have to invest and invest in it. To stay in place, you have to run as fast as you can.

                        Golden words!!! But it's all worth it! Without it, the country is doomed. Which has now become more than obvious. But not only to everyone. Especially up there.
                  3. +3
                    30 September 2024 13: 35
                    Quote: BAT-MENT
                    Well, who prevented all this from being done in 30 years?

                    And who prevented the USSR from making a diesel engine for the UAZ for 40 years?
                    1. 0
                      30 September 2024 14: 48
                      Why? UAZ was made exclusively for the army. And its food was very, very specific. That's why they made it from what they had, to make it cheaper. By the way, it's more convenient to use gasoline in winter.
                      1. 0
                        30 September 2024 15: 07
                        UAZ was made exclusively for the army. And its food was very, very specific. yeah ...
                        In our artillery regiment, approximately 100 Urals, there were 3 UAZ loaves, about 6 shishigs and 1 commander’s UAZ.
                        By converting them to diesel fuel, we throw out the extra fuel tank and get a refueling from 1 tank.
                        We also get higher torque at the wheels - because it’s a diesel - at low revs.
                        And the UAZ was originally planned as a light anti-tank weapon tractor - and a greater torque on the hook.
                      2. +1
                        30 September 2024 15: 11
                        I am generally convinced that the Soviet army did not have a prescribed purpose for light jeeps. They seemed to exist, but it is unclear for what and for whom. And there were many gasoline internal combustion engines in the Red Army. The Ural-375, the ZIL-131, etc. It was from the 70s that diesel engines began to be replaced everywhere.
                2. 0
                  30 September 2024 14: 46
                  Every year MAMI graduates an average of 15-20 automotive engine engineers. Why do we still not have a wide range of internal combustion engines for different types of transport equipment? The same goes for automatic transmissions. The Niva has enough transmission for normal driving from home on a country road. But for those who use it in a triad, it is definitely not enough.
              3. +2
                30 September 2024 13: 30
                Quote: BAT-MENT
                I agree, what was the problem all these years to make a 5-7 seater Niva with all-wheel drive, with an automatic, to install a powerful diesel engine! In the end, these units could have been purchased and produced under license.

                That's what they did at UAZ. They installed diesel engines and Iveco automatic transmissions on Patriots. Only the price tag was such that it was cheaper, simpler and more reliable to take a Mitsubishi Pajero Sport 1.
                I only remember Mitsubishi selling a license to Korean Hyundai for diesel 4D56 recently. The Koreans made quite successful crafts with it, from the same Terracans, Porters and Streks. They had this engine code D4BF.
                But I doubt that anyone sold us something like that. And our efficient people wouldn't have enough brains to even start a licensed production.
                1. +2
                  30 September 2024 14: 50
                  No one tried to acquire a license. In the 90s and early 2000s, all doors were open to acquiring licenses for internal combustion engines from the Japanese or Europeans.
            2. +1
              29 September 2024 20: 13
              Believe me, as an operator of a fleet of over 1000 cars, I can confidently assure you that the quality of the Russian Kalina and Granta was noticeably higher than their classmates that were much more expensive.

              The only bad car is the UAZ.
              Bad in everything.
              She doesn't have a single plus.
              1. +4
                29 September 2024 21: 14
                Quote: SovAr238A
                Believe me, as an operator of a fleet of over 1000 cars, I can confidently assure you that the quality of the Russian Kalina and Granta was noticeably higher than their classmates that were much more expensive.

                Depends on who you count in Odnoklassniki. If normal cars, like Japanese or Korean, then...
                1. -1
                  29 September 2024 22: 30
                  Well, okay, Japanese ones. Only the lazy didn't write about scuffs in Kia engines due to collapsing neutralizers
                2. -6
                  30 September 2024 07: 16
                  Kia/Hyundai are definitely not better...
                  Vag is better, but not more than 15%.
                  The vaunted Toyota is reliable only if it is a Hilux, Prado, LK200/300.
                  1. +5
                    30 September 2024 07: 39
                    Quote: SovAr238A
                    Kia/Hyundai are definitely not better...

                    What, excuse me?:))))) Yes, used ones are more reliable than new domestic cars
                    Quote: SovAr238A
                    The vaunted Toyota is reliable only if it is a Hilux, Prado, LK200/300.

                    Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers... You buy a Corolla or an Auris, and, with adequate use, for the first 10 or even 15 years you will fill it with gasoline and oil, and change all sorts of brake discs during maintenance, and the car will be happy with that.
                    1. -2
                      30 September 2024 07: 52
                      Oh, these storytellers ...
                      Since 2017, I have been managing repairs for a fleet of 880 passenger cars and 260 trucks and special equipment.
                      The machines are based:
                      From Nakhodka to Kaliningrad.
                      From Tambey to Sochi.
                      Average annual mileage is 130 thousand km.
                      Autopark-zoo!
                      It has everything.
                      Whatever the customer specified in the technical specifications, that’s what we bought and used.
                      My experience of commercial use is such that in 1-2 years I learn things that you won’t learn in 5-6 years of personal use.
                      1. +2
                        30 September 2024 08: 31
                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        Since 2017, I have been managing repairs for a fleet of 880 passenger cars and 260 trucks and special equipment.

                        At one time I worked at enterprises where 1000 units of motor transport equipment is a transport shop:))) One of them worked in the conditions of the far north. And the calculations for them are impossible to recalculate, including for the life cycle, taking into account the actual consumption of spare parts and other repair costs. So tell your stories to someone else.
                      2. 0
                        30 September 2024 16: 18
                        Just like storytellers.
                        It is to these “experienced operators of all kinds of equipment” that we supply what some girl wrote down in the technical specifications.
                        Everything is very sad in our car market.
                        It's even worse with parts and lubricants.
              2. +2
                30 September 2024 11: 42
                Quote: SovAr238A
                Believe me, as an operator of a fleet of over 1000 cars, I can confidently assure you that the quality of the Russian Kalina and Granta was noticeably higher than their classmates that were much more expensive.

                Funny! Why then do I not see a single Grant or Kalina in the same taxi? All Chinese, Koreans and Europeans? And this has been going on for 15, if not 20 years. Even the taxi drivers have been avoiding AvtoVAZs for a long time, even though they are a bit cheaper. The only thing I can agree with is that in the 00s our Tens and Kalinas were better than the first Chinese cars, like the Cherry Amulet and the first Cherry Tiggo. But now their cars and ours are like night and day.
              3. 0
                30 September 2024 14: 54
                In terms of quality, Russian Kalina and Granta were noticeably higher than their classmates, which were much more expensive.


                Volkswagen Polo is better. Toyota Corolla is better. Renault Clio is better. Peugeot 306 is better. Mitsubishi Colt is better. Hyundai Accent/Getz is better. Kia Rio 2 is better. Nissan Almera is better. Fiat Punto is better. Opel Astra is better. I can list Granta's "classmates" for a long time. Its only advantage was the price and versatility in terms of spare parts with previous front-wheel drive Ladas.
                1. 0
                  30 September 2024 22: 25
                  Corolla, Astra, 306 - these are not classmates of Grants. They are a class higher. Then there are Yaris, Corsa and 206.
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 08: 03
                    Yarim and 206 are very small. Even smaller than Granta. They are bigger than A class. Here is Opel Corsa - a direct competitor. And, by the way, they are all better than Granta. Some specific models of internal combustion engines or gearboxes will be unsuccessful. But if you take a solid naturally aspirated engine and manual transmission, then they are better.
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2024 08: 56
                      Swifts, for example, have a bad manual transmission. Therefore, there are always options
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 13
                        For example, Swifts have a poor manual transmission.


                        You could say that VAZ manual transmissions are the standard :)))
                    2. 0
                      1 October 2024 08: 57
                      And the class for Peugeot is 107. They often look at the wheelbase. Naturally, the sedan will be longer than the hatchback.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 15
                        But Mercedes A class thinks differently about the base. It is much larger in size than Peugeot 206. Everything is very conditional now by classes. In the end, the manufacturer decides which segment to classify its product into.
                2. 0
                  30 September 2024 22: 25
                  Fiats in our conditions are very much an acquired taste
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 08: 05
                    Fiat is a great European car. Punto, Albina, Panda. Galvanized. The internal combustion engines are of an old design and run as they should 300+ with timely oil changes. But they all have their drawbacks. Even Mercedes.
                3. -1
                  30 September 2024 22: 26
                  The Almera's automatic transmission is very so-so
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2024 08: 07
                    Is anyone forcing you to take a machine gun? Almera still likes Grants. No matter how you look at it. True, it rots just as fast. Classic is more durable.
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2024 08: 58
                      And in a metropolis, a manual transmission is not so much fun
            3. +1
              29 September 2024 22: 26
              Oh, okay. Lots of people drive Grants. And no one died. If you need a Grant, that's an option. But if you need checkers, then China with screens.
              1. +4
                29 September 2024 23: 02
                Oh, okay. Lots of people drive Grants. And no one died.

                Here it is, the elixir of immortality! laughing
              2. 0
                30 September 2024 14: 57
                Drive a rusty factory Granta without airbags for 1 million rubles yourself.
                1. 0
                  30 September 2024 14: 59
                  What decent thing can you get for this money?
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2024 15: 02
                    If I didn't have a car now, I would walk and take the bus. I'm not rich enough to pay for the Mercedes of AvtoVAZ top management. And for a million you can find a class A car in decent condition. Used, of course.
                    1. 0
                      30 September 2024 15: 05
                      Buses don't run well everywhere. In the countryside and small towns you can't go anywhere without a car. Used ones - yes. But they have their own difficulties. It's hard to find a decent car among the mass of worn-out ones with rolled-back mileage. Plus, for a million, these will be examples that are 15 years old. Or ten-year-old toddlers like the 107th or Micra, and this form factor is not suitable for everyone. And they can only be repaired in a big city. So people buy new VAZs.
                      1. 0
                        30 September 2024 15: 08
                        It's hard to find, of course. I spent exactly a year looking for my car. But I wasn't in a hurry. I had time - I drove, looked, thought. I'm not against the Lada Granta. I'm against the price of 1 million and more for it. It's robbery and a slap in the face, pure and simple.
                2. 0
                  30 September 2024 15: 09
                  All of Dagestan is riding on VAZs. No one has died yet
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2024 15: 11
                    And those who have money, they drive Mercedes, BMWs and other foreign cars :)
              3. 0
                30 September 2024 17: 23
                Quote from Sumotori_380
                Lots of people ride in Grants. And no one died.

                Of course it does. But you have to go to the car service regularly.
                1. +1
                  30 September 2024 18: 07
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Only the car service has to be visited regularly

                  Well, regular maintenance at a service center won't hurt even foreign cars feel
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  There is no option with the domestic auto industry. Because a car is needed.

                  As a "grant holder" request It's a bit offensive to hear this))))
                  I can't say that there were no problems in the past five years, but the main one was my fault. I listened to the "masters" ...
                  True, mine is from 2019, that is, pre-sanctions. Still, the Franco-Romanians have improved the quality a little
                  I'm not sure about the current products. what
                  1. +1
                    30 September 2024 18: 16
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Well, regular maintenance at a service center won't hurt even foreign cars

                    The Japanese one doesn't need it. Only maintenance when the time comes, and that's it.
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    I can't say that there haven't been any problems in the past five years.

                    My first problems (the turn signal stopped working) arose after about 10 years of driving, they fixed it immediately. And then there was a case when the autostart stopped working, but it seems that in the end the problem was in the alarm, not in the car.
                    And in 15 years - that's all.
                    1. -1
                      30 September 2024 18: 40
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Only for maintenance when the time comes

                      That's what I'm talking about hi
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      My first problems (the turn signal stopped working) arose after about 10 years of driving.

                      We wouldn't even call it a problem)) lol
                      Seriously speaking, the ability to choose is important. Between your own/problematic but cheap or someone else's/high-quality but more expensive.
                      Now our own is not cheap and foreign (that is, Chinese) is not particularly (not at all) of high quality request
                      1. +1
                        30 September 2024 18: 47
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Seriously speaking, the ability to choose is important. Between your own/problematic but cheap or someone else's/high-quality but more expensive.

                        Who argues. But this choice is in the past. SVO has effectively killed our passenger car industry, they will try to galvanize its corpse with scrap, but...
                    2. -1
                      30 September 2024 18: 43
                      Depends on the operating mode, annual mileage, installation skills, and climatic conditions. I used a B-class passenger car as a light truck. And I'm not a great driver. As a result, by 100 I had to change the clutch, repair the gearbox with a jammed bearing, and the rear shock absorbers ran out. Small things - the driver's belt jammed, the heater motor started to howl, the clutch pedal started to creak. By the way, Japanese cars have very delicate paintwork, it scratches in the air. The paint on the front fender flanges started to peel off.
                2. 0
                  30 September 2024 18: 10
                  Foreign cars don't require service? The choice between a VAZ and a foreign car is determined by the benefit. No, and the tales about a 30-year-old Pajero with a mileage of 400 thousand (and God knows how many have been wound up), which only requires replacement of consumables - these are tales.
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2024 18: 19
                    Quote from Sumotori_380
                    Do foreign cars not require service?

                    Foreign cars come in different varieties, but the same Japanese ones only require maintenance.
                    Quote from Sumotori_380
                    The choice between a VAZ and a foreign car is determined by the benefits.

                    Which has already been considered in every possible way - foreign cars are better.
                    1. -1
                      30 September 2024 18: 34
                      /Foreign cars are different, but the same Japanese ones - only maintenance./

                      And they don't break? Kia is famous for cylinder scuffs. Peugeot and BMW - for the unsuccessful Prince series engine. Renault - for the DP0 automatic transmission that is afraid of overheating. There are even jokes about Landy.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 26
                        Kia Rio and Hyundai Solaris go as taxis for 500 thousand km. What bullies? If about the K4 ICE, then yes - complete crap. Renault knows how to make cars, unlike VAZ. They have bad ICEs and gearboxes. And with the electrics on some cars there is a problem after 10-15 years. But they have significantly more good engines. And most importantly, there is a choice. Land Rover with an ICE from BMW went very well. There are nuances. They all have unsuccessful units and assemblies. Choose what you need. There is a choice THERE. We do NOT have it. Officials drive premium, and the people have been transplanted to Granta for a million. Thank you very much!
                    2. -1
                      30 September 2024 18: 36
                      /Which has already been considered in every possible way - foreign cars are better./
                      The question is debatable. The expression necropremium did not appear out of nowhere. Or jokes about Land Rover
                    3. 0
                      30 September 2024 18: 46
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      but the same Japanese ones - only maintenance.

                      Dear colleague, may you be healthy, but foreign cars in general and Japanese cars in particular are also different.
                      When you look at some of them, it’s not clear where Nissan ends and Renault begins.
                      Toyota, yes, is a different story, although some trends, like the CVT in the RAV-4, are alarming.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 29
                        Renault and Nissan are one concern. There is unification. And this is very good from the point of view of selection of spare parts. And Renault also taught Nissan to galvanize bodies. Otherwise, before the concern, it was complete darkness.
            4. 0
              29 September 2024 23: 34
              Nonsense, you need to buy a car that suits your budget, and not one that costs three million on credit.
              This is if you need a car for driving, not for showing off. Used Lada, used China.
              Marketers and advertisers don't work for free either.
              In general, the article is stupid, they brought up Ford - remember the car costs 10 salaries, but don't remember changing it every three years?
              1. 0
                30 September 2024 15: 02
                I remember, on one specialized forum I charged that a car should cost no more than half a year's income. This was when Granta cost from 400, and Vesta from 600. People howled: why are you, villain, wanting to transplant Moscow office plankton with a salary of a hundred thousand (two whole thousand Baku ones!) to Ladas????
          2. +6
            29 September 2024 13: 42
            "Sometimes it's enough to clean your grandfather's old one from rust and replace the rotten handle." - well, throw away the computer (or smartphone) you're currently using and buy yourself a BK 0010 or Mikrosha. You can easily find them if you really need them. Someone is forcing you to buy the damned "bourgeois iron".
            1. 0
              29 September 2024 22: 31
              I'm sitting here working on a 17 laptop. I want a new one. But objectively this one is sufficient.
        3. +9
          29 September 2024 15: 24
          And who sets these rates? Yes, the same state, in the person of the Central Bank) Actually, the state is the one that robs everyone. It is present in any chain of private relations. The question arises, why is such a state needed and where does the money go?!
          1. bar
            0
            29 September 2024 21: 15
            Quote: UserGun
            why do we need such a state

            Alexander, in your noble impulse you will earn yourself an article.
        4. -6
          29 September 2024 16: 47
          That's why I swapped a UAZ-pickup. It's more comfortable with a Honda engine. I'll punish the Chinese and all sorts of BMWs))
          1. 0
            30 September 2024 11: 48
            Quote: NC1982
            That's why I swapped a UAZ pickup. It's more comfortable with a Honda engine.

            Well, what's the point? It will rot through and through in 5 years off the assembly line. The axle shafts are constantly breaking. The washer fluid tanks and expansion tank are consumables))) No, this is not a car - this is HORRIBLE!!
        5. +2
          30 September 2024 13: 31
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          More than half of those buying for 3 million buy China on credit, despite the crazy rates. Those who turn over millions and all sorts of pseudo-stars buy new BMWs and don't care about their price.

          Well, that means they have at least 40 a month to pay on the loan?
      2. +24
        29 September 2024 10: 05
        However, prices for essential goods "for the poor" are also rising, and not faster than automobile prices.
        1. bar
          -20
          29 September 2024 10: 11
          Of course, inflation is growing. But recycling fees are not yet attached to eggs/chickens. And this is still relatively humane, if you compare it to government war bonds, which were once issued instead of salaries.
          1. bar
            -22
            29 September 2024 11: 13
            Judging by the number of minuses, it is clear that the issue with government bonds has gone even less far than the recycling fee )). What can you do, such are the times. From various options of sh... you have to choose the least disgusting one. And it is good that the authorities understand this.
            1. +9
              29 September 2024 15: 32
              If the authorities understood and calculated this, there would be no war. Yes
              1. -8
                29 September 2024 17: 27
                Here on VO, do you think that the war began due to an oversight by the Russian authorities?
                Well, well. And someone else upvotes this.
                1. +9
                  29 September 2024 20: 13
                  Worse. Not due to oversight, but due to direct action by the authorities. This is the result of a quarter-century of a course to destabilize the situation. Although it was possible to work closely on the territory of the post-Soviet republics. To promote the interests of Russia as a powerful state. To show an example of development. Well, no. Selfish interests came to the fore.
                  1. -5
                    29 September 2024 21: 00
                    I would have liked to see how you promoted the interests of Russia as a powerful state in the 90s. Begging for a couple dozen yards of dollars from the IMF.
                    Which leadership overlooked it? The one that the USSR flushed down the toilet and then the Russian Federation plundered, or the current one?
                    The Navalny sectarians also added some minuses.
                    1. +3
                      29 September 2024 21: 09
                      After the 90s, have we been living under a different leader for almost a quarter of a century? Or not? And yes, I didn't drink to brotherhood with you. About the sectarians - you made me laugh. When there is nothing to answer, so Tsipso and the Navalnyites?
                      1. -9
                        29 September 2024 21: 27
                        It doesn't work to address those who don't appreciate what's been done and only know how to hype up by pouring shit on everything around them.
                        Personal life experience shows that such people are of the least use.
                      2. +6
                        30 September 2024 04: 54
                        who do not appreciate what has been done

                        What has been done?
                        We drive domestic cars at an affordable price, we have our own planes, our own electronics, clothes, our people live in abundance with confidence in the future?!
                        Quite the opposite, everything is bought abroad, there is almost nothing of our own, people are up to their ears in debt, there is no confidence in the future...
                      3. -1
                        1 October 2024 04: 11
                        Quite the opposite, everything is bought abroad, there is almost nothing of our own,

                        Well, well. Name at least one country in the world that produces for itself as much as the Russian Federation.
                        There are so many whiners. Putin forces you to take out loans?
                      4. 0
                        1 October 2024 04: 20
                        Name at least one country in the world that produces for itself

                        I'll name it, this country was called the USSR, they were producing everything from needles to airplanes. That's why they destroyed the USSR, they saw competitors in it.
                        And I don't have any loans...
                        But you have nothing to say in essence... You probably live in a land of pink ponies.
                      5. 0
                        1 October 2024 04: 40
                        You are not over-indebted, neither am I, so where does that "people are over-indebted" come from? Are there any statistics? Comparisons? You just want to live in a fictional country where everything is perfect. Come down to earth.
                        I lived in the USSR almost half my life. And I stood in lines a lot for the fact that "they let everything out". Don't tell me about the USSR if you have no idea what it is.
                      6. 0
                        1 October 2024 15: 42
                        And I stood in lines for a long time because “they were releasing everything.”

                        It was necessary to simply adjust the manufactured products so that this would not happen, so that there would be no queues... Now, thanks to China, consumer goods factories are not standing, thanks to the wealth of natural resources... If there were no China, and natural resources run out, then there would be and will be neither Chinese nor our own... And the West will not help us, as we see from their sanctions...
                        The USSR was independent, but modern Russia is dependent in everything, this means there is no sovereignty
                      7. -1
                        1 October 2024 18: 33
                        You see, there is a dependence: the richer the country is in minerals, the less it feels the need to produce consumer goods. Consumer goods are produced by Japan, Europe, China and other Asian countries that are poor in resources. Producing consumer goods is boring, uninteresting and poorly paid. So let them produce them. If we run out of oil, we will produce consumer goods no worse than the Chinese. But I wouldn't want to.
                        In terms of the level of what we produce independently, there is no other country comparable to Russia. This means that we are the most sovereign of all other countries.
                      8. 0
                        1 October 2024 19: 13
                        In terms of the level of what we produce independently, there is no other country comparable to Russia.

                        I would like to hear what we produce if we have to import high-tech products, from telephones to airplanes, not to mention clothing and footwear, children's goods...
                        Thanks to the sanctions after 2014, we became more or less independent in terms of food, and the beginning of the SVO showed that a lot of seed material was purchased abroad...
                        The SVO showed that even in military terms there is a lot of dependence on foreign countries...
                      9. 0
                        1 October 2024 20: 01
                        Everything that concerns weapons, energy (any) and railways. This is always the main thing. The basis of independence. Very good in farming, although not 100%. Construction is not bad. Airplanes are a matter of time and money. All technologies are available.
                        Actually, from what a person buys with his earnings - food, apartment, furniture, household goods, clothes, medicine, car and gasoline, the percentage of imports is small. Now mainly in household goods, clothes and cars. Compared to other expenses, especially on the apartment, very little.
                      10. +4
                        30 September 2024 12: 35
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        It doesn't work to address those who don't appreciate what's been done and only know how to hype up by pouring shit on everything around them.
                        Personal life experience shows that such people are of the least use.

                        Lift my eyelids, WHAT has been done?
                        Toll roads for the people at the people's expense? A super expensive stadium for a private Gazprom team, but again at the people's expense? Is the auto industry developed, at least like in South Korea? Have they put their airliners on stream? Maybe they've straightened out the demographics? Have they refused to accept migrants, or at least brought order to them? I can tell you with complete confidence that it's even worse now than in the 90s. Yes, the mob was shooting, but not in the presence of the cops, and not a couple of kilometers from the Kremlin. What's happening to migrants now is horrible. Pedophiles, rapists and murderers. They've simply brought millions of these things to us. But in this matter, there's no need to build factories and steamships, we just need political will. And it is such that it serves the interests of a narrow group of people in the country, and to the great detriment of the rest of the country's population.
                        I don’t even want to mention the progress of the SVO.
                        Based on all this, experience suggests that turbopatriots are nothing special and are of the least use.
                        And yes, I keep forgetting to ask. What kind of car do you use?
                      11. 0
                        1 October 2024 04: 22
                        You want the Russian Federation to have absolutely everything better than any country in the world. It doesn't happen that way. Some things are better, some are worse. In total +/- the Russian Federation is among the best countries. It's a fact.
                        And you just want to shit on everything. Like dung flies, you only see shit.
                      12. 0
                        1 October 2024 09: 53
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        You want the Russian Federation to have absolutely everything better than any country in the world. It doesn't happen that way. Some things are better, some are worse. In total +/- the Russian Federation is among the best countries. It's a fact.
                        And you just want to shit on everything. Like dung flies, you only see shit.

                        No, I want the Russian Federation to have something else that is the best in the world, besides children and songs. And I would also like to have something average of our own, preferably everything, yes. At least at the level of South Korean fake cars. But there is nothing - NOTHING. Even Iranian cars are better than ours!!!
                        Well, yes, to be honest. It's a miracle they didn't screw up the Soviet legacy - nuclear energy and uranium enrichment centrifuges. Rosatom is up to par. EVERYTHING is up to par, unfortunately. They even screwed up space. About civil aviation, let alone anything. Electronics is even worse. The auto industry, even worse. Shipbuilding is there too. What's good about us?
                      13. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 09
                        I wonder why Iranian cars have to be worse? They are far from stupid. And they can do a lot of things.
                        There are probably plenty of such "patriots" who compare their auto industry with the Korean one and are indignant. And the Korean "patriots" are probably now horrified that their government is screwing up their auto industry and electronics to the Chinese. And what is going on in the souls of the German "patriots" regarding their auto industry is not to be envied. I recently saw an ad for Volkswagen ketchup.
                        Each country has its own historical circumstances and its own problems and advantages. But there is no country in the world that could produce, extract and manufacture so much at a competitive level independently of others like the Russian Federation.
                      14. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 43
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        I wonder why Iranian cars must necessarily be worse?

                        If only because Iran at the end of the 20th century had practically no technologies or production of its own. There was no education or medical system there, like in the USSR. What do you know about Iranian airliners, and what do you know about Soviet ones? About rockets and satellites? But these are all technologies that we had, and they don’t. Now they are even ahead of us in some ways. For example, the same auto industry. They DEVELOPED, and we DEGRADED. That’s the whole difference.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        There are far from fools living there. And they can do a lot of things too.

                        That's for sure. Unlike our kleprocrats-raw materials producers.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Each country has its own historical circumstances and its own problems and advantages.

                        That's right. Our historical circumstances are traitors in the CPSU, who still rule the country.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        But there is not a single country in the world that could, like the Russian Federation, produce, extract and manufacture so much at a competitive level, independently of others.

                        Cross out extracting, because not all countries, or rather no one, have such rich mineral resources. And at the same time, our country is the poorest in technology among developed countries. Even India has already caught up with us and surpassed us in some technologies. It will soon surpass us in all.
                      15. -1
                        1 October 2024 13: 57
                        Every country has periods of degradation and periods of development. China once degraded, now it is growing. Iran was a colony until the mid-20th century. And it finally became independent only in 79 after the revolution. And then it had to fight with Iraq for another 10 years at the instigation of the West. Iran is now experiencing recovery growth. Which the West is diligently interfering with. Which does not afsh but remembers that until the 16th century all science in the world was done by the Persians and Arabs. Who actually founded this science. And Europe was in the ass. They do not need a second China.
                        As for crossing out production, you don't know that it is one of the most high-tech industries. Actually, only we and the Americans can do the full cycle of oil exploration and production. No one else. Everyone in the world who produces oil is using American technologies. Except us.
                        But if you don't have your own TikTok and YouTube, then everything is lost. The technologies are lost, the country is poor.
                        Just recently the Americans achieved success - they enriched a couple of kilograms of uranium to 20%. Imagine what it's like for the American "turbopatriots" to realize that they were the first in the world to make an atomic bomb, and the rest, in their opinion, simply stole it. Or to realize the fact that astronauts were stuck in orbit for a couple of months due to a breakdown when they were the first to land on the Moon.
                      16. 0
                        1 October 2024 14: 27
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Every country has periods of degradation and periods of development. China once degraded, now it is growing.

                        This, of course, completely justifies the impotent suckers in power! wassat So, dear sir, degradation in the country comes only from cretins in power, and nothing else.

                        Quote: malyvalv
                        It was a colony until the mid-20th century. And it finally became independent only in 79 after the revolution. And then it had to fight with Iraq for another 10 years at the instigation of the West. Iran is now experiencing recovery growth.

                        Yes, yes, the recovery growth itself. Well, like a dog, it heals itself. There are the same idiots in power there, like ours, only they are just in a period of recovery. Well, Jupiter in Mars, or retrograde Mercury? Did I understand you correctly?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        count to cross out production you are not aware that this is one of the most high-tech industries. Actually, only we and the Americans can do the full cycle of exploration and production of oil.

                        Name the drilling platforms built in the Russian Federation for offshore oil production? Name the Russian compressors for LNG production. Name the Russian pumps that pumped gas through the Northern Streams. laughing There is no need to lie so brazenly. The Russian Federation could not and cannot even transport its resources without Western technology. And it cannot extract hard-to-recover oil without the same Western technology. Who are you trying to deceive here?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Everyone in the world who extracts oil using American technologies is sitting on it. Except us.

                        Except for us, but in the past. It was like that in the USSR. The Russian Federation doesn't have its own technologies.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Just recently the Americans achieved success - they enriched a couple of kilograms of uranium to 20%.

                        Thanks for another joke from Petrosyan. Tell me, how did the Americans create a nuclear bomb in 1945, in which the degree of uranium enrichment reached 90%? All their disadvantages of gas defusion technology are in the high cost and time. But since it was possible to buy enriched uranium from the Russian Federation for free and cheap, they used this.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Or to realize the fact that astronauts were stuck in orbit for a couple of months due to a breakdown when they were the first to land on the Moon.

                        It's still better than realizing how we are bombing the Moon with the expensive Luna-25 spacecraft, after the first ones delivered soil samples from the Moon to Earth.
                      17. 0
                        1 October 2024 14: 49
                        Name the drilling platforms built in the Russian Federation for offshore oil production? Name the Russian compressors for LNG production. Name the Russian pumps that pumped gas via the Northern Streams. laughing No need to lie so brazenly. The Russian Federation could not and cannot even transport its resources without Western technology. And also extract hard-to-recover oil without the same Western technology. Who are you trying to deceive here?


                        Well, if you don't know that we have everything you listed, then who's your doctor? Otherwise, our oil industry would have died long ago under sanctions. You need to spit less bile and read more. You'll learn a lot of new good things about the achievements of the Russian Federation.

                        Quote: Zoer
                        Thanks for another joke from Petrosyan. Tell me, how did the Americans create a nuclear bomb in 1945, in which the degree of uranium enrichment reached 90%? All their disadvantages of gas defusion technology are in the high cost and time. But since it was possible to buy enriched uranium from the Russian Federation for free and cheap, they used this.


                        That's it. They have their own Chubais and Gaidars too.
                      18. 0
                        1 October 2024 15: 02
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Well, if you don't know that we have everything you listed, then who's your doctor? Otherwise, our oil industry would have died a long time ago under sanctions.

                        So we bought drilling rigs, as well as equipment for them. They are working now until they exhaust their resource. We also built gas liquefaction plants using their compressors. We can't build new ones, they don't sell them anymore. Pumps for the Northern Streams - well, there's nothing to comment on here. It's impossible to lie. No. And it is not profitable for them to ruin our oil industry. They always need resources, and preferably cheaper ones.
                        But screw the oil industry. We must not forget that if necessary they can paralyze all activity in our country, except perhaps the Strategic Missile Forces. What do you think will happen if all "pagers", mobile devices and systems on the Vidous OS are turned off forever in the Russian Federation at the same time?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        That's it. They have their own Chubais and Gaidars too.

                        Mdass, as the boss says... They certainly have their own sawyers. But only they have ALL their own technologies, from 2 nanometers to the return stages of the RN, which by the way made them the undisputed leaders in space. In terms of satellites, they have always been. And comparing their auto industry with ours is like comparing an ocean with a swamp. These are the Gaidars and Chubais in the American style.
                      19. 0
                        1 October 2024 17: 59
                        So we bought drilling rigs, as well as equipment for them. They are working now until they exhaust their resource. We also built gas liquefaction plants using their compressors. We can't build new ones, they don't sell them anymore. Pumps for the Northern Streams - well, there's nothing to comment on here. It's impossible to lie.


                        This is all because you only study nasty things about the Russian Federation. And you are not aware that drilling rigs are being built. Platforms in the sea are operating at the Prirazlomnoye, Lunskoye, Astokhskoye fields. And without any foreigners. Gazprom Yuzhno-Kirinskoye is going to develop without any platform at all.
                        Novatek's LNG-2 works on Russian pumps capable of pumping liquefied methane. Rosatom did its best. They are big experts on pumps. And by the way, hydraulic fracturing fleets plow the expanses on their pumps. They develop shale, among other things. They do 15-stage hydraulic fracturing. Although this won't tell you much. I myself am an oilman with almost 20 years of experience working for American companies and I know better what is going on there and how.
                        I don't even know that the SP-2 gas pipeline was built on Russian turbines. It's stupid people like you who wander around information dumps and then puff here on VO and downvote those who know what and how.
                      20. 0
                        1 October 2024 20: 28
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        This is all because you only study nasty things about the Russian Federation. And you don't know that drilling rigs are being built. Platforms in the sea are working at the Prirazlomnoye, Lunskoye, Astokhskoye fields. And without any foreigners.

                        I asked you to name the platforms built in the Russian Federation. Can you? Well, the ships built by foreigners for us are also now sailing the oceans without foreigners.

                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Novatek's LNG-2 operates on Russian pumps capable of pumping liquefied methane. Rosatom did its best.

                        I asked about compressors for liquefying natural gas. What's wrong with them? Why are new liquefaction plants stalling?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        I don’t even know that the SP-2 gas pipeline was built using Russian turbines.

                        Great. How do they work there?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        It's stupid people like you who wander around information dumps and then puff here on VO and downvote those who know what's going on.

                        Why should I be happy that Gazprom invested in turbines for transshipping gas to the Germans, so that it would be easier for them to make cars, and now weapons for non-brothers?
                        If you had told me that Gazprom invested in the Russian auto industry, and a completely domestic C-class car entered the market, priced at up to 1 million rubles, I would have given you, Gazprom, and Garant a standing ovation.
                        But under the current rulers this is fantasy.
                      21. 0
                        1 October 2024 20: 46
                        I asked to name the platforms built in the Russian Federation.

                        Prirazlomnaya in Murmansk has been built.
                        Great. How do they work there?

                        As far as I know, they were taken to another project.
                        If only you had reported that Gazprom invested in the Russian auto industry

                        Gazprom already has places to invest. A third of the country is still without gas. This is more important than satisfying your desires for a car for less than a million. As they say, some people have empty cabbage soup, while others have small pearls.
                      22. 0
                        1 October 2024 21: 00
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Prirazlomnaya in Murmansk has been built.

                        Agass...

                        Russia has not yet learned how to create platforms using entirely its own technologies.
                        Residential modules, drilling rigs, energy complexes and other components are purchased abroad. Russian companies can only manufacture the platform base. Domestic orders are implemented at Asian shipyards. Mainly in South Korea. The profits from oil production have to be shared.

                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Gazprom already has places to invest. A third of the country is still without gas. This is more important than satisfying your desires for a car for less than a million. As they say, some people have empty cabbage soup, while others have small pearls.

                        Well, yes, every 5 years the guarantor gives instructions to gasify, but still nothing. They are always ready to invest in the Northern Streams and the Siberian Streams. Of course, why do they need our cabbage soup when they are still not satisfied with pearls.
                        This is also an indicator of the impotence of the authorities and technologies in the country.
                      23. 0
                        Yesterday, 03: 26
                        Residential modules, drilling rigs, energy complexes and other components are purchased abroad.


                        Just don't quote amateurs from drilling. For drilling on land all this is done perfectly, but for a platform suddenly not. By the way, the listed is the simplest. The most difficult in offshore drilling is underwater reinforcement.

                        Domestic orders are being implemented at Asian shipyards, mainly in South Korea.

                        South Korea hasn't done anything for us for 2.5 years. There's only one real problem with South Korea. We were counting on them to make ice-class gas carriers. The Koreans screwed us. That's why LNG-2 is slowing down, not because you're fantasizing. Everything else is there and working. But sooner or later we'll have gas carriers anyway. Again, it's a question of time and money.
                      24. 0
                        Yesterday, 09: 18
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        and for the platform suddenly no. By the way, the listed is the simplest.

                        We don't have it, we don't do it. Even the simplest. I think it's pointless to ask about the reinforcement. It's clear that it's bourgeois.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        That's why SPG-2 is slowing down, and not because you're fantasizing.

                        It's not me fantasizing, this is what they write in the state media - the newspaper Vzglyad, do you know it?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Again, it's a question of time and money.

                        It's always a question of time and money. And also political will and the brains of the rulers. We had a lot of time. Money too. But...
                      25. 0
                        Yesterday, 13: 58
                        We don't have it, we don't do it. Even the simplest. I think it's pointless to ask about the reinforcement. It's clear that it's bourgeois.


                        We don't have any new platforms yet and we don't plan to. We need to figure out what's on land. Offshore drilling is a very expensive business, especially in the Arctic. As long as there are cheaper options on land, no one will do them.

                        It's not me fantasizing, this is what they write in the state media - the newspaper Vzglyad, do you know it?


                        Just like many people use unverified data and interpret it in their own way. They look for the "burning truth". Otherwise, the newspaper won't sell itself.

                        It's always a question of time and money. And also political will and the brains of the rulers. We had a lot of time. Money too. But...


                        Yeah, all the armchair analysts always have plenty of money, time and brains. It's a shame that all the taxi drivers and hairdressers are already busy and don't participate in governing the country or managing football. They even know better than the armchair analysts how it should be.
                        It's like in the late 80s it suddenly became clear that everything in the USSR was wrong. Stalin was a tyrant, we had to live "not by lies", we needed political will and brains to organize "perestroika" and "glasnost". Yeltsin is our banner. Do we need to tell how it ended?
                        And now “I would like it to be like in China,” which at the same time wound hundreds of such critics of the government on the treads of tanks on Tiananmen.
                      26. 0
                        Yesterday, 14: 14
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Yeah, all armchair analysts always have plenty of money, time and brains.

                        Oh, yeah. It's probably because of a lack of money and big brains that they invested in American Treasurers and other trash for decades. They invested as much as 600 billion dollars. In the end, 300 of them were simply given to them, and now they are using them to sponsor khokh=lov. These are, of course, brilliant decisions.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        It's like in the late 80s it suddenly became clear that everything in the USSR was wrong. Stalin was a tyrant, we had to live "not by lies", we needed political will and brains to organize "perestroika" and "glasnost". Yeltsin is our banner. Do we need to tell how it ended?

                        There is no need to shift the blame from the sick to the healthy. It was precisely the modern ruling gentlemen who were doing all this. And precisely with the goal of dismantling and plundering the state. Which is what they have been doing and have been doing all these years.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And now “I would like it to be like in China,” which at the same time wound hundreds of such critics of the government on the treads of tanks on Tiananmen.

                        Nationalize all the largest raw materials companies in the country. Make them work for the state, prohibit the withdrawal of capital from the country. Develop your own technologies and industry. And I will be the first to support this government, and let them wind up the critics of all this on the Red Square as much as they want.
                        You are turning everything inside out again. WHY? To justify these kleptocrats and stay in the sweet business of pumping out and transshipping the country's resources?
                      27. 0
                        Yesterday, 14: 26
                        Nationalize all the country's largest raw materials companies. Make them work for the state, prohibit the withdrawal of capital from the country.

                        You can't calculate the consequences of this. How will you differentiate the purchase of imports from the withdrawal of capital? Will you slow down imports? Will you put commissioners in every bank?
                        Raw materials companies already work for the state. Quite effectively, paying huge amounts of money into the budget. Half of which consists of those taxes. And whether a nationalized raw materials company will work the same way as a private one is still a question. There will definitely be more theft there.
                        Don't think that you are smarter than those who are NOW in the government.
                      28. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 45
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        You can't calculate the consequences of this. How will you differentiate the purchase of imports from the withdrawal of capital? Will you slow down imports? Will you put commissioners in every bank?

                        How do they do it in China?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Raw materials companies already work for the state. Quite effectively, paying huge amounts of money into the budget. Half of which consists of those taxes.

                        Is it okay that half or more of the income of these raw materials companies goes into the pockets of a very small group of Russian citizens, and through them to NATO countries? And I am talking specifically about the ban on the withdrawal of this capital. This is exactly what is done in China. Any businessman, even a foreigner, cannot withdraw money from China abroad. Only goods produced in China. And then sell them and do whatever you want with a profit. The purchase of imported goods is not prohibited.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And whether a nationalized raw materials company will work the same way as a private one is still a question. There will definitely be more theft there.

                        Everything will depend on the personal qualities of the managers, starting from the very top. I am sure that even with much less motivation than Miller and Sechin, there will be more competent and honest managers. But the truth is not in the system of the existing vertical.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Don't think that you are smarter than those who are NOW in the government.

                        And I never thought of them as stupid. Not far-sighted - yes. Petty money-grubbers, without state ambitions, and completely irresponsible for their country and state - also, yes. So, they have achieved all the goals they set for themselves, and more than that. And then what? Who the hell knows what? They themselves do not understand what to do with all this. Just stupidly spin this dynamo, just so it does not die? This does not happen. Without development, any state dies, as does business. This is what they are leading to.
                      29. 0
                        Yesterday, 18: 19
                        Without development any state dies, as does business. This is what they are leading to.

                        Because of such stupid critics, we have already had one state die in my memory. I mean the USSR. No one will let you destroy the second one. Everyone now knows that such people are better off as caterpillars.
                      30. 0
                        Yesterday, 22: 33
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Because of such stupid critics, we have already had one state die in my memory. I mean the USSR. No one will let you destroy the second one. Everyone now knows that such people are better off as caterpillars.

                        You are lying again!!! The USSR was destroyed by those who are currently in power. They are sitting and sucking all the resources out of this country. At the same time, the population is dying out and being replaced by the Central Asians. So your beloved rulers will destroy this country themselves. Finally, because the Russian Federation does not have the same fat reserves as the USSR. Look, NATO has become so brazen that they are climbing our borders.
                        Just don't forget later that you are an accomplice to all this crap.
                      31. 0
                        Yesterday, 09: 35
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        I myself am an oilman with almost 20 years of experience working in American companies and I know better what is going on there and how.
                        I don't even know that the SP-2 gas pipeline was built on Russian turbines. It's stupid people like you who wander around information dumps and then puff here on VO and downvote those who know what and how.

                        The fact that you are an oilman directly explains your pompous position. I understand that everything is fine with you, and you will always be provided with work, even under American occupation. Well, what, the subsoil is full of riches, the pump is pumping, the pipe is laid. And there, even if the grass doesn't grow. But what should the remaining 95% of the population do?
                        I have 20 years of experience in the development and production of electronic electronic equipment. And I see all these high technologies and the technological sovereignty of the Russian Federation from a completely different angle. And I understand perfectly well that it is not so difficult to turn ANY of our production over to Westerners, if they really want to. I see how difficult it is to do all this now under sanctions. I see all the idiocy of import substitution in this area, since 2014. Do you know how much import has been substituted in the country? ZERO!!! Complete ZERO! There is no domestic base of electronic components more complex than resistors and capacitors! They exist on paper, but they are NOT in warehouses! There are no production facilities in the Russian Federation for printed circuit boards of 8 layers or more. There may be some at closed defense plants, but I am not sure. But there are none in the national economy. We only have development, and in Western CAD systems, in addition to mechanical engineering and basic supporting structures of electronic equipment, software development, and final assembly of printed circuit boards manufactured in China, with foreign-made components, on automatic production lines in Western countries and Japan.
                        My wife has been working in ship repair and modernization of ships and vessels for 15 years. There is also a lot of similar interesting things there, a wagon and a cart. The most important systems on combat ships and auxiliary fleet vessels are again Western. Fire extinguishing systems, rudder propellers, ship furniture. Now there is no access to all this.
                        But you continue to throw your hats.
                      32. 0
                        Yesterday, 14: 18
                        This is all a result of "entering the global world". The desire of the population to sell hydrocarbons and to rule over Western goodies. Including under Putin, yes.
                        That's why the oil industry is still more or less, and microelectronics suffered the most, as did machine tool manufacturing. To be honest, I thought that in 2022 it would be worse with the oil industry. A lot was tied to imports. But it almost worked out.
                        It's easy for China, with its hundreds of millions of highly educated population, to pull any technology to the world level even from scratch. But in India, where there are a lot of people but half are illiterate, it's not working out. And here, with education, it seems to be OK (for now), but there are simply not enough people to quickly pull everything to the world level. And it's not a fact that it will work.
                        Therefore, money and time are needed. But there are many positive aspects and this is pleasing.
                      33. 0
                        Yesterday, 15: 22
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        This is all a result of "entering the global world". The desire of the population to sell hydrocarbons and to rule over Western goodies. Including under Putin, yes.

                        WHOSE DESIRE??? What are you talking about? Back in the 90s, our citizens worked from dawn to dusk at the machine and in the fields. Until it appeared: why should we make our own, we have a lot of oil and we will buy everything... Then, by the middle to the end of the 90s, everything was ruined and plundered. And the profession of a bandit and a prostitute became the most glorified, especially in cinema. In the 00s, they smoothly sailed to managers and salesmen. All under the sensitive guidance of a geostrategist.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        It is easy for China, with its hundreds of millions of highly educated population, to bring any technology to the world level, even from scratch.
                        Don't tell me, there aren't hundreds of millions of highly educated people there. Tens of millions, yes. We had about the same in the USSR. And WHO ruined this educated population? And where did it SUDDENLY come from in China? Did it grow on its own?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        But in India, where there are a lot of people but half of them are illiterate, it doesn’t work like that.

                        Yes, yes, but somehow their lunar mission in 2023 was successful, unlike ours.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And we seem to have normal education (for now), but there are simply not enough people to quickly pull everything up to the world level. And it’s not a fact that it will work.

                        With education, everything is not so rosy. In terms of the number of people, it's even funny. In Japan and especially in South Korea, there will be fewer.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        But there are many positive aspects and this makes me happy.

                        laughing What positive aspects are there? That they managed to redirect raw material exports to the East? Or that the rate has been growing for a year and is already 19%, and will be 20%, that it is completely killing production? That there are no steps to revive industry in the country, but simply a reorientation from Western suppliers to Chinese ones?
                    2. +3
                      30 September 2024 12: 28
                      Quote: malyvalv
                      Which leadership overlooked it? The one that the USSR flushed down the toilet and then the Russian Federation plundered, or the current one?

                      And what is the fundamental difference between them? They all come from the CPSU. They destroyed the USSR for the sake of everything they have now. At the same time, they don't give a damn what will happen to the country and its people.
                      Quote: malyvalv
                      I would have liked to see how you promoted the interests of Russia as a powerful state in the 90s. Begging for a couple dozen yards of dollars from the IMF.

                      Since the 00s, who has prevented the country from developing in a high-tech economic direction, and not forcing it into a raw materials appendage of partners? Probably the price tags for oil at $120 per barrel and trillion-dollar incomes. It would be easier to share with your clans and shove the backbreaking gains into NATO countries. Factories, plants, ships? Nope, haven't heard. Why do we need it? Yachts, villas and accounts in Switzerland - that's it, please. And then, oops, and esveo. And it turns out that the total cost of all those arrested yachts is more than the Russian Federation invested in its entire Navy over all 30 years of the capitalist system.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 14
                        They wanted it like in the West - and they got it. And such mass quirks are expensive. Then you have to pay for it for decades. Only cats give birth quickly.
                      2. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 47
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        They wanted it like in the West - and they got it. And such mass quirks are expensive.

                        Who wanted it like in the West? The traitorous communists who destroyed the country? Chubais and Gaidars, with their Derirybki and Rotenbergs? They got everything they wanted. But personally, I wanted and want it like in China.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Then you have to clean up the mess for decades. Only cats give birth quickly.

                        And 24 years - a quarter of a century, is that also fast? He did it! But Stalin raised the country from ruins in two five-year plans. And without the torrential rain of oil dollars during these same five-year plans.
                      3. 0
                        1 October 2024 17: 48
                        They got everything they wanted. But personally, I wanted and want it like in China.

                        I should have been born a little earlier and gone with a machine gun to support the State Emergency Committee. But for some reason no one was found then. Everyone wanted something a little different.
                      4. 0
                        1 October 2024 20: 08
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        You should have been born a little earlier and gone with a machine gun to support the State Emergency Committee.

                        No, it was too late then. The point of no return had come, a little before Brezhnev mumbled - oursosits...san! And then it was a matter of technique and sloppiness. Of course, when there is nothing to eat in the country, the people want something a little different. And it will be the same in the Russian Federation, when the refrigerator starts fighting with the TV.
                      5. 0
                        Yesterday, 18: 16
                        Back in the 90s, our citizens worked from dawn to dusk at the machine and in the fields. Until it appeared: why should we make our own, we have a lot of oil and we will buy everything...

                        You don't know history well. This was said by Gaidar, who was vice-premier for almost 92. This is the starting point.

                        With education, everything is not so rosy. In terms of the number of people, it's even funny. In Japan and especially in South Korea, there will be fewer.

                        Well, they have less of everything. They have nothing to show for it except electronics and cars. No aircraft with engines, no nuclear shield of their own, no nuclear industry as such, space hasn't worked out yet, no oil production, they even have less software than we do. Cut them off from cooperation with the West and they'll go under in 2 months. That's why they're ready to lick the Americans' boots.
                        It would seem that there was time and money too. And no one stole or transferred money to offshore accounts. Are their authorities really dumber than ours?

                        Yes, yes, but somehow their lunar mission in 2023 was successful, unlike ours.


                        I think I got it. Well, if India succeeded in one mission in space, that's it. They have everything great with education, but we're screwed. There is positive discrimination against everything non-Russian and negative discrimination against everything Russian. There's no point in explaining anything to the Navalnyites. Live like that.
                      6. 0
                        Yesterday, 22: 24
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Well, they have less of everything. They have nothing to show for it except electronics and cars.

                        Agass. Japan has also forgotten about heavy engineering. It also has aircraft and rocket engineering. Shipbuilding, too, and the Navy is second only to the USA. South Korea has the most powerful shipbuilding in the world. The Russian Federation can only boast of uranium enrichment technology. That's ALL. And that's thanks to the USSR, as well as for the nuclear shield.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Cut them off from cooperation with the West and they will die in 2 months. That is why they are ready to lick the Americans' boots.

                        These are just your fantasies. But the fact is that it is more profitable for everyone to cooperate with the US and Europe, and not with the Russian Federation. That is why they support sanctions against the Russian Federation.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        I think I got it. Well, if India succeeded in one mission in space, that's it. They have everything great with education, but we're screwed. There is positive discrimination against everything non-Russian and negative discrimination against everything Russian.

                        There is a real view of things. And the ability to assess the degradation of one and the same country, over a short historical period, and the development of another country over the same period.
                        It is not clear why you are trying to justify this degradation with any lies and distortion of facts.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        There is no point in explaining anything to Navalny's supporters.

                        There is no point in opening the eyes of turbopatriots to the existing reality.
                        I have just one question. Do you drive a TAZ? Or do you drive a right-hand drive, like a TLC? laughing
                      7. 0
                        Yesterday, 22: 52
                        Agass. Japan has also forgotten about heavy engineering. It also has aircraft and rocket engineering. Shipbuilding, too, and the Navy is second only to the USA. South Korea has the most powerful shipbuilding in the world.


                        What are the Japanese doing in heavy engineering that we don't? Can they make 100 MW turbines? Japanese planes? Rockets? Have they already sent a cosmonaut?
                        What kind of shipbuilding do we have there? Just a few small things, nuclear icebreakers and submarines, the best frigates in the world, Aframax tankers. But Korea is a beast. And Japan has a second fleet. Did they sink the Chinese one or something? And if we add up our 5 fleets, what kind of fleet do the Japanese have? And if we add Zircons to ours, which the Japanese don't have? Will they last long?
                        Stop talking nonsense.

                        But the fact is that it is more profitable for everyone to cooperate with the USA and Europe, and not with the Russian Federation.


                        So go ahead and kiss the Americans' asses. Some have already done so. If something goes wrong, sanctions are immediately imposed. If you don't like Huawei, crush it. And some believed in the West so much and became so brazen because of it that now it's time to ask them, "So, son, did your Americans help you?"
                      8. 0
                        Yesterday, 23: 27
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        What are the Japanese doing in heavy engineering that we don't? Can they make 100 MW turbines? Japanese planes? Rockets? Have they already sent a cosmonaut?

                        And turbines can. But we looked pale without Siemens. Fortunately, we started moving after the cock pecked.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And what kind of shipbuilding do we have there? Just small stuff, nuclear icebreakers and submarines, the best frigates in the world, Aframax tankers.

                        We have nothing, even in comparison with the USSR. Frigates, where are they? Especially, like the hohols have clamped the engines. The hulls went to the Indians.
                        Aframaxes, are they the ones made in Korea, and only one was made in Russia?)))
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And Japan has a second fleet. Did they sink the Chinese one? And if we add up our 5 fleets, what kind of fleet will the Japanese have? And if we add Zircons to ours, which the Japanese don't have? Will they last long?
                        Stop talking nonsense.

                        And I think they will drown the Chinese. And if you add up our 5, then there won't be even half of the Japanese one, even quantitatively, I won't even mention the quality. Their anti-submarine aircraft beats even the American ones in all respects.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And if we add to our Zircons which the Japanese don't have? Will they last long?
                        Stop talking nonsense.

                        Hold on to your hats. Before February 2022, they also talked a lot about daggers and calibers with Iskanders, and that Banderovites won't last long. And they also argued with foam at the mouth about the 2nd army of the world. And look how it turned out. This is not something you can draw during the 147 elections. Real things are needed here.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        So go ahead and lick the Americans' asses. Some have already licked them. Anything wrong, and sanctions will follow. If you don't like Huawei, crush it.

                        Huawei wasn't crushed. But "our" auto industry is quite good. All because your geostrategist has been kissing up to Western partners for a quarter of a century.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And some believed in the West so much and became so brazen because of it that now it’s time to ask them, “So, son, did your Americans help you?”

                        Don't say gop, fate didn't look where he jumped. It is not yet known how all this will end, and who helped whom and how. From your China, son, there is not much help yet either. But your rulers have already turned to lick there. But they still cannot direct their gaze inward.
                      9. 0
                        Today, 01: 11
                        Nonsense. From beginning to end.
                        Learn the basics or go and give up if everything is so bad.
                      10. 0
                        Today, 09: 32
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Nonsense. From beginning to end.
                        Learn the basics or go and give up if everything is so bad.

                        Strong argumentation, BRAVO!!! good
                        Are you out of flying hats? laughing
                2. bar
                  -6
                  29 September 2024 21: 32
                  What can you do, this is the kind of people that have gathered on this “patriotic” resource. sad
                  1. +9
                    29 September 2024 22: 33
                    Got bad people again?
                    1. bar
                      -2
                      30 September 2024 08: 17
                      Here? Yeah, there's a lot of people here...
                3. +3
                  30 September 2024 11: 51
                  Quote: malyvalv
                  Here on VO, do you think that the war began due to an oversight by the Russian authorities?

                  Absolutely so. And at first they treated the whole Bandera camarilla with disdain for a long time, then they openly abandoned Donbass in 2014. And by 2022 they realized that they had climbed into a corner from which there was only one way out. By the way, Girkin described all this in great detail. That's what he's serving time for, the poor guy. That's who the real patriot of our country is.
                  1. -1
                    1 October 2024 04: 34
                    I can imagine what would have happened to us if in 2014 we had clashed with the West like we are now. Without our own food, without our own payment system, with a weak defense industry, without new weapons, without the support of China in the end.
                    Girkin, although a brave guy, is very narrow-minded.
                    1. +2
                      1 October 2024 10: 04
                      Quote: malyvalv
                      I can imagine what would have happened to us if in 2014 we had clashed with the West like we are now. Without our own food, without our own payment system, with a weak defense industry, without new weapons, without the support of China in the end.

                      In 2014, Kyiv would have been taken in a week for sure! And in Kharkov and Odessa we would have been met with flowers!
                      In terms of economics, the only thing we didn't have in 2014 that we have now is our own national payment system MIR and cards for it. That's ALL! Our "own" food is the same as it is now. Defense industry? Is this a joke? Was it strong in 2022? fool By 2024, they just dispersed something, especially according to the UMPK. But in 2014, this would not have been necessary. The Ukrainian Armed Forces were put on their shoulder blades by the militias in 2015, with minimal help from the Russian Federation.
                      And why wouldn't China support us? And how much does it support us now? Does it refuse to accept dirty yuan from us for its goods?
                      Quote: malyvalv
                      Girkin, although a brave guy, is very narrow-minded.

                      Yes, the great geostrategist is very distant. Who is constantly deceived by "partners". Who gave the Ukrainian Armed Forces 8 years to prepare, and the Westerners as well! So much so that it already flies to the Urals via infrastructure, Belgorod and Kursk are constantly under fire, the Kursk border area is generally occupied by the enemy. Of course, this is all from foresight, yeah.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 26
                        It is useless to argue with such a level of forecasting and understanding of the consequences of steps as Girkin. It reminded me of cavalrymen during the Great Patriotic War with sabres on tanks.
                      2. 0
                        1 October 2024 12: 49
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        It is useless to argue with such a level of forecasting and understanding of the consequences of steps as Girkin. It reminded me of cavalrymen during the Great Patriotic War with sabres on tanks.

                        I will repeat it once again. The great geostrategist is not any better at understanding and forecasting. This is more than obvious from the course and character of the SVO. And it was he who went after the tanks with sabres. First, he allowed the enemy to make and repair these very tanks.
                      3. 0
                        1 October 2024 14: 14
                        Unlike you and Girkin, Putin understood perfectly well that the military-industrial complex of the entire West loomed behind Ukraine's military-industrial complex. Which is what we are dealing with now. And it would have been exactly the same in 2014. And the attack on Kyiv in 2022 is nothing more than an attempt to force them to sit down at the negotiating table, not what you are fantasizing about. It didn't work. It is exactly the same as the current attempt by the Ukrainians to force us to sit down at the table with an attack on Kursk. It also didn't work.
                        But you and Girkin are geostrategists, Putin is nothing compared to them.
                      4. 0
                        1 October 2024 14: 39
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Unlike you and Girkin, Putin understood perfectly well that behind the Ukrainian military-industrial complex loomed the military-industrial complex of the entire West.

                        Yes, yes, another good joke from Petrosyan! laughing
                        Where and what did he understand there, if the force detachment allocated to the SVO was less than that in the Armed Forces of Ukraine? fool Where and what did he understand if additional production of shells, armored vehicles, missiles was not established? What did he understand if there were practically no UAVs in the units at all? What did he understand if it came to a sudden, shameful self-mobilization, with empty logistics warehouses? Moreover, the mobilized were brought to empty fields, or to destroyed military towns. Did he understand and predict all of THIS? The classic - everything is going according to plan?
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And in 2014 it would have been exactly the same.

                        It wouldn't have been exactly the same. Remember Ilovaisk alone. There, the Ukrainian Armed Forces were ALL EXHAUSTED!!! And if they had worked even earlier, then Kharkov and Odessa would have been ours without a single shot, like Crimea.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        And the attack on Kyiv in 2022 is nothing more than an attempt to force them to sit down at the negotiating table, and not what you are fantasizing about. It didn't work.

                        Didn't work? Well, that's only because of poor planning and overestimation of one's capabilities. And that is the gross short-sightedness of a geostrategist, because of which the SVO has been in effect for the third year already.
                        Quote: malyvalv
                        Putin can't compare.

                        That's for sure! Finally, you came up with something useful. good
                      5. 0
                        Today, 08: 59
                        Are you seriously claiming that Soviet officers in 1941 were so stupid that they attacked tanks with sabres? I understand that you study historical events from Nikita Mikhalkov's films?
                      6. 0
                        Today, 10: 08
                        In the USSR, General Dovator was considered a war hero. Whether it was or not, such cases were promoted as examples of bravery. Probably not out of nowhere.
                      7. 0
                        Today, 13: 59
                        The PR and propaganda of journalists and propagandists have nothing to do with real deeds. If during the war a competent maneuver and logistics were carried out using cavalry, this does not mean that the Red Army officers were clinical cretins and went into an attack with sabres on tanks. I wonder in which units the officer's sabre was routinely armed in 1941? :)
                      8. 0
                        Today, 16: 38
                        Cavalry vs tanks
                        Among the many unique operations carried out by Dovator's cavalry near Moscow, the battle near the settlement of Martynovo is especially noteworthy. Surprised by the daring raid of the Red Cavalry, the fascist command sent two infantry divisions and 50 tanks, covered from the air by Junkers, to the Solnechnogorsk area. Despite the fact that two German battalions and eight tanks broke through to the rear of the 50th Cavalry Division, General I.A. Pliev's soldiers successfully repelled their attack and began a counteroffensive.
          2. +11
            29 September 2024 14: 16
            Quote: bar
            And this is still relatively humane, if compared to the government war bonds that were once issued instead of salaries.

            There the country was for the people, not for a bunch of rich cannibals.
            1. bar
              -5
              29 September 2024 21: 33
              Did you manage to live in "that country", or did your grandfathers tell you?
              1. +1
                30 September 2024 04: 57
                Did you manage to live in "that country", or did your grandfathers tell you?

                I managed to do so, and perhaps many others...
                In the country that was called the USSR, people were confident in the future...
      3. +24
        29 September 2024 10: 55
        to replenish the state budget in the context of enormous expenditures on war?

        Maybe it's better to find these funds by fleecing alligators and other rich people? Otherwise, how to fight - we, how to pay for the war - again we...
        1. +1
          30 September 2024 13: 41
          Quote: paul3390
          to replenish the state budget in the context of enormous expenditures on war?

          Maybe it's better to find these funds by fleecing alligators and other rich people? Otherwise, how to fight - we, how to pay for the war - again we...

          It has long been calculated that of - not real estate and the cost of factories, but rather the funds of all the oligarchs of the Russian Federation will be enough to pay pensions for only 2 months.
          1. +4
            30 September 2024 13: 43
            Hmm... So what is it that is being taken out of the country in tens of billions every month? what And before, there were hundreds? what Really factories and real estate? belay
            1. +1
              30 September 2024 13: 53
              Quote: paul3390
              Hmm... So what is it that is being taken out of the country in tens of billions every month? what And before, there were hundreds? what Really factories and real estate? belay

              If you think, "Let me transfer a billion to my account in Switzerland" - then it hasn't worked like that for a long time. Really for a long time.
              They use chemicals and it’s not always possible to detect it, no doubt about it.
              In total, there are billions of them - this is the cost of all sorts of factories and other things.
              And for pensions we need 29 billion daily - just for pensions, without the Pension Fund.
          2. 0
            1 October 2024 12: 45
            funds - not real estate and the cost of factories, but the funds - of all the oligarchs of the Russian Federation will be enough to pay pensions for only 2 months.
            .

            Unlike you, I took arithmetic at school. According to official data, the Pension Fund spent 2022 trillion rubles on pensions and other payments in 11.3. In dollars, this would be 125.6 billion dollars. So what is the total wealth of our oligarchs? I am sure that it is much more than 125.6 billion dollars. It is not surprising that you are easy to deceive. You do not even know elementary arithmetic.
            1. 0
              1 October 2024 21: 40
              For you personally - who studied arithmetic at school - I remind you that oligarchs do not have mountains of money - they have Norilsk Nickel or Rusal. The value of which is those billions dollars their fortunes - and they have 2-3-5 billion RUBLES of money in their accounts.
              And here is the withdrawal of this MONEY - and
              NOT real estate, factories and other things - just to allow paying a pension for only 2 months.
              And will the seizure of Norilsk Nickel ever allow then pay pensions from its products - BUT not TOMORROW, you can’t break off a piece from it.
              Khodorkovsky was a dollar billionaire - and then bam - he was a ruble millionaire after taking over the oil industry - and then bam - he was a pauper on a bunk.
              If you don't understand this, you weren't taught basic arithmetic well....
              1. 0
                Yesterday, 08: 58
                And don't enterprises earn money every day? And don't "successful" businessmen and managers get several million rubles a month? And what is the profit of these enterprises and assets? Let's count? And it all belongs to the "owners". In addition to the main assets, each "successful" businessman has a bunch of side ones, including those registered to relatives. And these other assets were acquired at the expense of the main ones. That is, at the expense of the people's wealth again. And the state can also earn money, and not just try oil. The USSR earned money by importing a huge range of recycled products. And what about Russia?
                1. 0
                  Yesterday, 19: 21
                  Quote: cast iron
                  The USSR made money by importing a huge range of recycled products.

                  Yeah, that’s why debts are still being written off – for what the USSR supplied.
                  So yes, he supplied, and as for earning money...
                  The shock construction project was the gas pipeline to Germany - NATO - at the height of the Cold War...
      4. +15
        29 September 2024 10: 55
        Quote: bar
        If the wealthy part of the population is ready to voluntarily fork out 3+ million for a Chinese tin can, It would be a sin not to take advantage of this and not take half of it into the budget.

        Are you out of your mind! Do you want to make our "peasant" horseless? A car in the modern world is not a luxury, but a vital necessity. And if draconian duties are to be introduced, then at least this should not apply to cheap cars (at least class B). Otherwise, the "norms" adopted today make life much more difficult for ordinary people. They are the ones who suffer the most!
        1. bar
          -22
          29 September 2024 11: 10
          Quote: Stas157
          Are you out of your mind?

          Take a deep breath, calm down and look around. All the yards are filled with this iron. Many go out once a month. Did they really need it, or did they just succumb to the general excitement provoked by the marketing scams? It is not necessary to answer, the question is rhetorical.
          1. +1
            29 September 2024 11: 16
            In large cities, in my opinion, there is no need to have your own car now. Take Moscow, for example, paid parking in the courtyards, you can hardly find a place, traffic jams... They will say dachas there, houses outside the city and in other regions. So car sharing, you can even go to the south on them now. And for example, where I live, I go to work 30 km one way, there are no buses and I need a car for work and there is no car sharing.
            1. +10
              29 September 2024 14: 20
              Quote: Andrey VOV
              In my opinion, in large cities there is no need to have your own car now.

              Are you aware that in large cities, or more precisely in agglomerations, people sometimes get to work for a couple of hours. And before that, they need to take their children to kindergarten, which is supposedly being built at a rapid pace, but in reality you will hardly find them near your home. By the way, this is related to the question of how we solve the demographic problem.
              1. -2
                29 September 2024 14: 57
                The metro, the Central Ring Road and other things are faster than by car, and we didn’t switch to the informal “You”
                1. +8
                  29 September 2024 16: 27
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  The metro, the Central Ring Road and other things are faster than by car, and we didn’t switch to the informal “You”

                  In Moscow it may be so, especially if you are outside the Moscow Ring Road. But in St. Petersburg, for example, public transport is very sad. For example, it takes me 40 minutes to get to work by car. If you go to the Olympic Games, it's an hour and 40 minutes.
                2. +1
                  29 September 2024 23: 46
                  It's immediately obvious that you've only seen this Central Ring Road on the news. Not even on the map.
                3. 0
                  1 October 2024 13: 53
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  The metro, the Central Ring Road and other things are faster than by car, and we didn’t switch to the informal “You”

                  This is if the kindergarten is nearby. And even then it is not a fact. And it was not for nothing that I wrote about agglomerations. And yet, here you can use the Internet without Chinese ceremonies and no one is obliged to anyone to be on the informal "you".
              2. 0
                1 October 2024 13: 48
                In my city, one kindergarten was closed in the 90s and sold to another successful businessman. It is located in the central part of the city. It has been turned into a private mansion. Azerbaijanis trade next to the fence. This story is all you need to know about demography in Russia. It does not exist. And there are no real measures for improvement and revival.
            2. +2
              29 September 2024 15: 07
              Quote: Andrey VOV
              Take Moscow for example, parking is paid, you can hardly find a place in the courtyards, there are traffic jams...

              The issue is precisely in parking, parking lots. Maybe it is worth taking a closer look at the experience of some countries, where you can't buy a car without buying a parking space, and construction giants are forced to stop launching "human anthills" without infrastructure?
              1. +6
                29 September 2024 15: 17
                We've already lost time, plus they'll charge so much for underground parking that it'll make you crazy
                1. 0
                  30 September 2024 15: 27
                  Putilkovo. Famous village. Novotushinskaya street. They are parked in two rows in the yard of a new building. Next to them, 50 meters away, is a Chinese business center parking lot. 5000 a month. Empty. I'll save ten a month, but I'll park my Mercedes so that I can go and drive it away at six in the morning when I get a call. And what about closed numbers on Maybachs in the center of Moscow? Isn't that stingy?
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2024 20: 49
                    I got curious. Does the minusator disagree that there is a problem with parking in Putilkovo? Or does he like to park in the third row just to save five a month?
          2. +15
            29 September 2024 11: 19
            Quote: bar
            All the yards are filled with this iron.

            Aren't you tired of playing this hackneyed record, which is clearly designed for the feeble-minded?

            And where are the yards not filled with this iron now? It's like that in any Bantustan. In the neighboring 404 as well! The yards can be filled. And there's nothing to drive on.

            Quote: bar
            Many people go out once a month.

            Once a month, those who have neither work nor children leave. Is this what you are orienting us towards, Mr. Propagandist?
            1. bar
              -25
              29 September 2024 11: 22
              Mister non-propagandist, breathe out. And don't stick your non-propagandist labels on me. Whoever wants to understand me, will understand. Understanding is the prerogative of those who understand.
              1. +12
                29 September 2024 14: 21
                Quote: bar
                Understanding is the prerogative of those who understand.

                Well, we understand you, don’t worry, defender of the oligarchy.
                1. bar
                  -4
                  29 September 2024 21: 20
                  laughing
                  Don't you find it funny, whistleblower?
              2. +9
                29 September 2024 15: 45
                Otherwise I see someone who "understands" Why not rob a rich person for the budget, who is ready to spend 3 million... But the rich don't drive such cars, it is the poor who drive them, the poor. Who are cheated with car loans, such, well, rich. Yes, and why not rob the main part of the population for the budget? That's how it is, in your opinion?
                1. bar
                  0
                  30 September 2024 08: 21
                  I still hope that the majority of the country's population is more sober-minded than the majority of the population of this conference. And does not succumb to the excitement and mass consumer hysteria about buying cars. And the small part that is being led made its own choice, no one had a gun held to their head.
          3. +2
            29 September 2024 22: 35
            This hardware is generally 15 years old or more. It's an echo of the fat XNUMXs.
      5. +23
        29 September 2024 12: 25
        Cement in a bag from 250 rubles to 550 rubles, corrugated sheeting from 215 rubles to 585 rubles, and this is over 10 years. Candy in a magnet from 217 rubles to 600 rubles. Meat from 350 rubles to 750 rubles. List
        1. -6
          29 September 2024 14: 58
          What kind of meat is this 750 and where??
          1. +8
            29 September 2024 15: 25
            Lamb, beef...At the market. Don't you go?
            1. -8
              29 September 2024 15: 38
              We don’t have such prices on the market, it’s cheaper, beef starts at 550, pork starts at 300, chicken and turkey are more expensive than pork.
              1. +4
                29 September 2024 17: 00
                Kuban, pork from 210... I sold rams to a pub for 600 rubles per kg, half carcasses. How much was it then in this "Shashlik Yard"?
          2. +1
            29 September 2024 17: 18
            Beef in Nalchik, balyk and apple. Tenderloin 1200 and above
      6. +1
        29 September 2024 14: 12
        Quote: bar
        But doesn’t it occur to you that all these duties and disposal fees are intended to replenish the state budget in the context of the enormous costs of the war?
        No, we know for sure that this is a feeding trough for all sorts of jerks. And the budget does not need to be replenished: the huge costs of the war are completely offset by the capital export blocked by the West. Now if they had not cut off SWIFT and closed access to their banks, there would have been big problems.
      7. +12
        29 September 2024 14: 46
        Quote: bar
        But doesn’t it occur to you that all these duties and disposal fees are intended to replenish the state budget in the context of the enormous costs of the war?

        This is a mistaken idea. Because it is not at all a fact that income from such measures will increase.
        Simply put, the more expensive the product, the less people buy it, so yes, the budget will receive more from one car, but fewer of these cars will be imported.
        1. bar
          0
          29 September 2024 21: 22
          The idea is normal. When the excitement dies down and people come to their senses, then the fees can be reduced. But for now they are sweeping like crazy and have no plans to stop.
      8. P
        +4
        29 September 2024 14: 48
        Maybe the raw material export monopolies will pay for their own decisions?
        1. +5
          29 September 2024 15: 19
          So this is the state. Purely private ones from the oil industry Lukoil, Gaz-Novotek. I don't know about coal.
      9. +7
        29 September 2024 16: 19
        Quote: bar
        And does it not occur to you that all these duties and disposal fees are intended to replenish the state budget in the context of huge expenses for the war? If the wealthy part of the population is ready to voluntarily fork out 3+ million for a Chinese tin can, it would be a sin not to take advantage of this and take half of it into the budget.

        And if someone is not ready to buy a Chinese tin can for 3 million, then let them buy Russian firewood for 1,5 million, which cost 700 thousand yesterday? Or should they switch to a scooter right away?
        Is this some kind of luxury tax we have or something? Did you get something mixed up there? fool
        1. bar
          +1
          29 September 2024 21: 25
          fool
          There is no need to lump everything together and confuse luxury tax with inflation. We have the same "taxes" on bread and sausage.
          1. 0
            29 September 2024 21: 28
            Quote: bar
            There is no need to lump everything together and confuse luxury tax with inflation. We have the same "taxes" on bread and sausage.

            So you are the one who is confused! You are the one who calls a Chinese car for 10 thousand dollars a luxury, from which you can rip off a second price tag for the benefit of the state.
            1. bar
              -2
              29 September 2024 21: 40
              Me? Unexpectedly. Where did I consider Chinese tin cans a luxury? Shit is sh...t. I'm just surprised by the people who throw these products at crazy prices. And we have to fight mass madness somehow. And extracting income from them for the budget is a very good topic.
              1. +2
                29 September 2024 21: 48
                Quote: bar
                Me? Unexpectedly. Where did I consider Chinese tin cans a luxury?

                Well, you justify the tax on this. Or don't you?
                Quote: bar
                I'm simply amazed by the people who are throwing away these products at crazy prices. And we have to fight mass madness somehow.

                What else to sweep? Basins for 1,5 million? Or real estate for 10 million? And yes, these products are better than basins and patriots in any case. And many times better, and from all sides.
                Quote: bar
                And extracting income from them for the budget is a completely viable topic.

                Ahh, life is bad without a sucker? You're not by any chance one of those thugs who make money in the alleys, from the crazy people who decide to go out on the street in the evening? what
              2. 0
                Today, 09: 06
                Geely produces decent cars that are better than any Lada or UAZ.
                1. bar
                  0
                  Today, 11: 22
                  The level of decency will be determined when they have driven at least the first 100+ thousand km.
                  1. 0
                    Today, 14: 05
                    In taxis, Geely Atlas and Coolray already wind up 200 thousand km. Geely Tugella is the same Atlas in a different body. Geely Monjaro is identical to Volvo in terms of technology, down to every spare part.
        2. +1
          1 October 2024 17: 36
          The idea is correct. Those who cannot buy a Chinese shushlaika for 4 million, let them streamline and suffer in a UAZ Bukhalka for 1.7 million or a Lada Granata for 1.2 million :) And it doesn't matter that the real price for these semi-cars is 400-500 thousand. But never mind, Channel One will explain that it is not the Government and the Ruling Class of capitalists who are to blame for the rise in prices, but the damned Obama/Biden/Trump :)))) Let the rest buy a paw and a half-Chinese bicycle Stels. If of course they have enough income :)))) I am sure that the great Minister of Industry and Trade, who is a sociologist by education, thinks so :))))
      10. Alf
        +4
        29 September 2024 21: 03
        Quote: bar
        But doesn’t it occur to you that all these duties and disposal fees are intended to replenish the state budget in the context of the enormous costs of the war?

        What, did Russia already conduct SVO in 2009 and 2012?
    3. +7
      29 September 2024 11: 17
      It's just that for us, cars have become a luxury again.

      It has been a luxury for 30 years and its status has not changed...
      1. 0
        1 October 2024 17: 40
        There was a period from about 2006 to 2012 when cars cost quite reasonable money relative to the population's income.
    4. ABC
      -11
      29 September 2024 11: 26
      Quote: Stas157
      Why do this? And who came up with such an outrage? Ask our patriots in power. After all, in a country where patriotism is declared a national idea, everything should be done according to this.

      Do you not like the patriots or the government?
      1. +17
        29 September 2024 11: 35
        Quote: ABC
        Do you not like the patriots or the government?

        I don't like that I can't exchange my old car for a new one. I definitely won't buy it at the current double prices. At least for a few more years. I'll hold out until the last minute. I hope that something will change during this time. For the better, of course.
        1. ABC
          -15
          29 September 2024 11: 41
          Well, that means the situation isn't so critical that we need to climb onto the armored car? Well, good for us.
        2. +17
          29 September 2024 15: 39
          Quote: Stas157
          Quote: ABC
          Do you not like the patriots or the government?

          I don't like that I can't exchange my old car for a new one. I definitely won't buy it at the current double prices. At least for a few more years. I'll hold out until the last minute. I hope that something will change during this time. For the better, of course.

          Your hopes are in vain!
          Car prices will only go up, just like everything else. Even the days of cheap loans and mortgages are over.
          I suspect that "fun" times await us in the near future. I suspect that our economic bloc will be brought to default, and the military-political leadership to a major war.
          1. +6
            29 September 2024 19: 55
            According to the leadership of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, the Chinese will now rush to build car factories in the Russian Federation and we will live happily ever after! If they don't rush, they won't do it. The common people will suffer.
            1. +3
              29 September 2024 22: 03
              So what's the point? The prices for cars won't go down anyway.
              Even if a Muscovite who is a Jack, with the wave of a magic wand, turns from 900 thousand Chinese rubles in Russia into 2 million Russian rubles, and this is despite the fact that the assembly is localized in Russia.
              So, let's wait for this bubble to burst. hi
            2. 0
              Today, 09: 08
              Why on earth would they rush to build factories in Russia if Russia does not set any conditions at all for operating in its automobile market?
          2. +1
            30 September 2024 13: 46
            Quote: leks
            I suspect that our economic bloc will be led to default, and the military-political leadership to a major war.
            Reply
            Quote

            If there is a BV, then the car will cost, mmm, free....
        3. -1
          30 September 2024 18: 37
          Quote: Stas157
          Quote: ABC
          Do you not like the patriots or the government?

          I don't like that I can't exchange my old car for a new one. I definitely won't buy it at the current double prices. At least for a few more years. I'll hold out until the last minute. I hope that something will change during this time. For the better, of course.

          For the better - is it like in the USSR? Wait 3 years and then "Take what they give you, if you don't like it - wait another 3 years in line"?
          Or like under Putin in the 2000s - came, paid the money, and left in a new car? lol

          Z. S
          The cost price of the VAZ-2101 was 970 rubles with a selling price of 6...
      2. +6
        29 September 2024 12: 27
        Power with turbopatriots,
        1. P
          +6
          29 September 2024 14: 52
          power with trubo patriots
    5. +2
      29 September 2024 14: 14
      Quote: Stas157
      After all, in a country where patriotism is declared a national idea, everything must be done in accordance with this.

      A lot of things are also written on the fence.
    6. +9
      29 September 2024 15: 23
      Well, you know that when they start to "pressure" on patriotism... Get ready - they will rob you
  4. BAI
    +26
    29 September 2024 07: 16
    1.
    Henry Ford once stated that the cost of a car should be equal to the annual salary of the average worker.

    I didn’t know this phrase, but more than 30 years ago I came to the conclusion that a car should cost 10 monthly salaries.
    2. Let the author not worry about the VAZ car. It won't go broke. When the Granta was sold for 250, its cost price was 000. The profit is greater than in prostitution and drugs. So domestic manufacturers have reserves
    1. +10
      29 September 2024 07: 45
      Quote: BAI
      I didn’t know this phrase, but more than 30 years ago I came to the conclusion that a car should cost 10 monthly salaries.

      In Ford's time, this phrase was relevant and served as a kind of price benchmark. But much time has passed since then. Labor productivity has increased. Accordingly, the cost of manufactured goods has fallen, and they have become much more affordable. For example, an American now needs only a couple of salaries to buy our popular Lada Granta car. True, they prefer cars that are a little more technologically advanced.
    2. +6
      29 September 2024 07: 50
      There was, there was the Taganrog plant. And from screwdriver assembly it moved by leaps and bounds to its own production. But where is it? And where is Uzdeu? I wonder why? Can our authorities answer this question?
      I'm sure they can. But no one will like the answer.
      1. +4
        29 September 2024 08: 29
        Uzdeu is in Uzbekistan, where he belongs:))
      2. 0
        1 October 2024 05: 55
        Quote: Slavynich
        And where is Uzdeu? I wonder why? Can our authorities answer this question?
        I'm sure they can.

        And it's not just the authorities who can do it - the Daewoo corporation, which made EVERYTHING - from supertankers to microwaves - died in 1998. The branch in Uzbekistan was bought by the USA.
    3. P
      -2
      29 September 2024 14: 54
      only if it is reliable and relevant for the next 50 years. If the car does not last longer than the loan is paid for it, it cannot be worth 10 months of labor
    4. -4
      29 September 2024 20: 17
      Don't confuse cost price and component cost.
      These are two huge differences.
      1. Alf
        +4
        29 September 2024 21: 21
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Don't confuse cost price and component cost.
        These are two huge differences.

        But isn't the cost of components included in the cost price? This is a new word in economics.
        1. -2
          30 September 2024 07: 19
          Because the cost of components is not the full cost price... In the Russian Federation there are also such things as social burden on enterprises.
          There is provision for the activities of the dealer network, etc.
          1. Alf
            +1
            30 September 2024 19: 21
            Quote: SovAr238A
            There is provision for the activities of the dealer network, etc.

            And don't Renault, Volkswagen, Ford, Toyota, Mazda and the like have it?
            1. 0
              1 October 2024 05: 58
              Quote: Alf
              Quote: SovAr238A
              There is provision for the activities of the dealer network, etc.

              And don't Renault, Volkswagen, Ford, Toyota, Mazda and the like have it?

              They just don't give a damn about the population - see Detroit. And here they will drag AvtoVAZ by the ears - because Tolyatti without it will be a problem on the level of Ukraine
    5. -2
      29 September 2024 22: 59
      There is a version that it is six months
    6. -2
      29 September 2024 23: 00
      Do you mean the engine cost fifteen? And the gearbox cost ten?
    7. 0
      30 September 2024 19: 20
      Quote: BAI
      I didn’t know this phrase, but more than 30 years ago I came to the conclusion that a car should cost 10 monthly salaries.

      That is, the USSR quietly cheated its citizens - a salary of 600 rubles was not much in the country...
      Quote: BAI
      When Granta was sold for 250, its cost price was 000. The profit was greater than in prostitution and drugs.

      The USSR sold the VAZ 2101 for 6 - the cost price of which was 000 rubles. The profit of the USSR was greater - than that of the capitalists with Granta, prostitutes and drug dealers???
      1. Aag
        0
        30 September 2024 21: 56
        Quote: your1970
        Quote: BAI
        I didn’t know this phrase, but more than 30 years ago I came to the conclusion that a car should cost 10 monthly salaries.

        That is, the USSR quietly cheated its citizens - a salary of 600 rubles was not much in the country...
        Quote: BAI
        When Granta was sold for 250, its cost price was 000. The profit was greater than in prostitution and drugs.

        The USSR sold the VAZ 2101 for 6 - the cost price of which was 000 rubles. The profit of the USSR was greater - than that of the capitalists with Granta, prostitutes and drug dealers???

        I had a sign (I can’t vouch for its 100% accuracy): VAZ-2101 - 1675 rubles (approximately),
        M-412, 2480 rub. (I don’t know about IZH, AZLK)...
        For those who read selectively, diagonally: I have only voiced the approximate order of the COST of cars of those times.
        hi
        1. 0
          1 October 2024 06: 04
          Quote: AAG
          I can't vouch for 100% accuracy)

          To hell with it - let it be 2000... They were still sold for 6000 - not with a 100 ruble markup lol
          The cost price was told to me by a person who worked at VAZ in the 1970s - supposedly the official figure in the accounting department was in the documents when they compiled annual reports.
      2. 0
        Today, 09: 16
        Yes, the USSR has been profiting off its citizens since the 60s. This practice began with Khrushchev. When the goal of an enterprise is to make a profit (and under Khrushchev, in fact, this goal was returned), the results are always the same. Under Stalin, the goals of an enterprise were: reducing production costs and retail prices while simultaneously increasing productivity and improving quality. The task was to provide the population with goods, not to make a profit.
  5. +26
    29 September 2024 07: 24
    In our country, a car has long been a luxury, so in 2022 I decided to upgrade my 25-year-old Japanese car to a younger one. As a result, I bought a 189 compact car with 2011 thousand on the clock in Japan for 30 thousand rubles. I paid another 150 thousand for delivery to Vladivostok. I gave almost another 600 thousand for all sorts of fees and duties. That is, the state, without doing anything, just shaved me like a lamb. But it still turned out cheaper for me than buying domestic options. That is, in fact, they rob me everywhere, it seems like they should have a lot of money, but at the same time they are always short of it. Regarding the domestic auto industry, the patient is most likely dead here, producing outdated cars is more expensive than more modern cars from competitors, and at the same time wondering why sales are falling, well, these are apparently some peculiarities of our market. At the same time, all the innovations of our production are not the optimization of productivity, not the creation of new models and ideas, but simply squeezing competitors from the market with the help of the state and its policy. Of course, this scheme is a dead end for development, I will not be surprised if in 200 years, when man has already mastered space, we roll out a brand new and shiny "loaf" from the conveyor. And what can we do if the Soviet legacy will remain a milestone in the development of our wonderful Russian capital.
    1. -8
      29 September 2024 10: 16
      Actually, a Zaporozhets will take you to the same place as a Mercedes.
      In the era of difficult times, which on our land never end, it is possible to retreat from the ideas of the current modernity of a personal car.
      In principle, there are cars. They carry. And often even have airbags, heated buttocks, and windows.
      Equip the same Oka with a three-cylinder engine and you have a people's car.
      And if the price is made resolutely honest, then life will sparkle with joyful colors.
      At the same time, I am in no way against progress and even in favor of strictly holding numerous research institutes and design bureaus accountable for their inaction.
      1. +11
        29 September 2024 10: 28
        "Zaporozhets" will take you to the same place as "Mercedes".
        At the very least, not “the same way”, and not always “there”.
        1. -3
          29 September 2024 23: 03
          Well, sometimes it can take you where a Mercedes can't go.
      2. 0
        29 September 2024 12: 32
        In 1993 I bought a Daihatsu Mira for 600 dollars cleared through customs, a colleague bought a Toyota Sprinter for 1500 bucks in Vladik.
        2018 in Holland the same Mira, but already three-cylinder, 2002 cost 800 euros.
      3. P
        -2
        29 September 2024 14: 58
        ZAZs did not have liquid cooling, and the heater could easily kill you. ZAZ is absolutely not suitable for driving in the city, but it can drive in the countryside
        1. +2
          29 September 2024 15: 01
          Thanks for reminding me. And I'm from that era.
          And Zaporozhets - first a soapbox, then a long-eared one - were in the family of my friend who lived on the floor above.
          So I know where and how it was in the city and how it was in the fields.
          1. +1
            29 September 2024 20: 02
            As far as I remember, a Zaporozhets cost about 3000 rubles in those years, a lot of money! There was a queue.
            1. Alf
              +6
              29 September 2024 21: 24
              Quote: BAT-MENT
              As far as I remember, a Zaporozhets cost about 3000 rubles in those years, a lot of money! There was a queue.

              There was a queue not because it was expensive, but because little was being produced.
      4. +8
        29 September 2024 15: 50
        Numerous research institutes and design bureaus... I also want to go where you are stuck...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  6. +22
    29 September 2024 07: 36
    So far, only one thing is clear: cars in Russia are gradually becoming a luxury, the quality of which will increasingly lag behind world standards, and the cost will steadily increase.

    Who would have doubted it? The program for producing a people's car has "successfully" failed?
    Is the fairy tale about a reliable and inexpensive car still just a fairy tale?
    * * *
    Is it necessary to assume that a Russian car should cost no more than 800 - 000 rubles, depending on the configuration?
    That the engine for it should be, if not a “millionaire”, then close to it.
    Chassis, electronics, body with a guarantee of "at least" 5 years... Well, and the appropriate design, so that the Russian car does not look like a cart in the general flow...
    Focus on the domestic market, compete with the "Chinese" in terms of reliability, security and unobtrusiveness of service...
    Remove VAT in the auto industry, finally...
    * * *
    Stop gorging yourself and being touched by how important industries in the country are deteriorating.
    In this situation, the income of government officials should not exceed reasonable limits - ten minimum wages will be enough (if they want to earn more, let them go into business... lol ).
    And also, stop handing out dividends on papers received as the right to some part of the income from production. At least to government officials... Otherwise, the incomes from Volodin's 60 to Manturov's 000 look somehow awkward - like, they are the smartest in the country...
    1. +12
      29 September 2024 10: 57
      Quote: ROSS 42
      At least for government officials... Otherwise, the incomes from Volodin's 60 to Manturov's 000 look somehow awkward.

      It used to be simpler - an acceptable ratio of salaries for top and bottom management was established
      Conditionally - directors and cleaners. At the enterprise, in the industry, in the country. Let's say - the director's salary cannot exceed three salaries of the cleaner. If the director wants to get more - be kind, pay the cleaner more too
      It seems like a perfectly working idea, but in practice it is quickly distorted. For example, you can count not from the salary, but from the wage, and in fact, the same cleaner has the same salary as before, and the director, in addition to his three units of the cleaner's salary, receives a dozen additional payments, bonuses, personal payments, etc.
      And the idea - it remained just an idea. A good one, but not working.
      1. +6
        29 September 2024 11: 10
        Quote from sdivt
        And the idea - it remained just an idea. A good one, but not working.

        I completely agree with you. And what else was invented - salaries for vacation, five (or any number of salaries upon retirement).
        But the special trick is shares of enterprises. It is practically impossible to find traces of purchase and sale (donation, exchange, given by colleagues at work), but annual dividends can be several times higher than salary income... And all within the framework of the law...
        We got shares of voucher funds and enterprises that simply evaporated, while they had successful investments in oil, gas and other assets...
        hi
        1. +9
          29 September 2024 17: 55
          Alas, yes, everyone knows about this, but our privatization was the most “legal and popular” in the world.
      2. P
        -1
        29 September 2024 15: 02
        In order to start implementing your ideas, you will first have to push aside the ruling class, and then build the state apparatus and social relations on other principles. Naturally, you will most likely perish in the process, and without any guarantees of success for the entire enterprise. Are you ready for this?
        1. +1
          29 September 2024 21: 55
          Quote: Pandemic
          in order to start implementing your ideas, you will first have to push aside the ruling class, and then build a state apparatus...

          Setting some specific ratios in salaries between the highest and lowest paid workers is not my idea at all.
          http://government.ru/docs/7340/
          1. P
            -1
            30 September 2024 00: 11
            Project? I saw these projects in the same place, where it is "firm and clear"
      3. -3
        29 September 2024 16: 53
        1:3 is complete idiocy.
        You compare the responsibility of a cleaning lady and a director.
        If we pay the director 300 rubles now, then we have to pay the cleaning lady 000 rubles
        and then what a line will form to work as a cleaner!! a super-privileged position!!!
        and if you pay a cleaning lady 25 rubles, then you'll have no chance of finding a director to work for 000 rubles.
        so this idea is simply idiotic and initially distorted, calculated for populism and that the people will swallow this thing.
        So you eat it. You just need to use your brain and not just stupidly eat it.
        1. +3
          29 September 2024 17: 38
          and if you pay a cleaning lady 25 rubles, then you'll have no chance of finding a director to work for 000 rubles.

          If the directors don’t have more profitable options, you will find them, and even a lot.
        2. +11
          29 September 2024 18: 18
          this idea is just idiotic and distorted from the start
          In England, a Westminster MP earns 3 (three) times more than a barmaid (on minimum wage) in a pub across the road. And they all work.
          1. +3
            29 September 2024 21: 51
            The people in the comments are so actively objecting to the expediency of this scheme that I'm starting to think that the forum is only attended by managers)
            1. +1
              29 September 2024 22: 05
              I have long noticed that here there are almost exclusively millionaires with experience serving as officers in special forces Yes .
          2. -4
            29 September 2024 23: 12
            In England, MPs can work for free - they all have their own business. At Okhotny Ryad, MPs also earn three times more than a bartender, taking into account tips at the pub next door. And maybe the bartender has even more
          3. 0
            30 September 2024 21: 22
            Quote: Bolt Cutter
            this idea is just idiotic and distorted from the start
            In England, a Westminster MP earns 3 (three) times more than a barmaid (on minimum wage) in a pub across the road. And they all work.

            Yeah ...
            The naive Berezovsky thought that in England everything was fair and the judge - whose son was receiving a salary from the other side - would recuse himself. But no way, in England there is a real democracy, and parents/children are nothing to each other...
            Birch had to hang herself with a scarf...
            The situation is roughly the same with MPs in Westminster...
            1. 0
              30 September 2024 21: 25
              Naive Berezovsky thought that in England
              He would become a member of the establishment and thought that it was like in contemporary Russia - buy judges and politicians, don't give a damn about the laws. But they pointed out to him that he was just a thieving white black man from the third world. How could he not hang himself?
              1. 0
                1 October 2024 06: 20
                Quote: Bolt Cutter
                It's like in contemporary Russia - they buy judges and politicians, and don't give a damn about the laws

                So all JOKE consisted in the fact that second side PAID to the judge's son - like a salary. belay recourse wassat lol request
                And Bereza tried to get the judge removed - as in a decent country.
                Moreover, the Royal Court hinted at some the piquancy - but the judge said that she would not recuse herself, saying that she and her son have different budgets...
                Not only that, but my son was given a bonus at work as a result of the trial. belay feel lol
                Quote: Bolt Cutter
                He's just a thieving white black guy from the third world.

                Naturally he realized that he was a black man - white just Bought royal judge. At the root...
        3. +2
          29 September 2024 21: 43
          Quote: Evgesha
          So you eat it. You just need to work with your brain and not just eat it stupidly.

          Let's read carefully again:
          Let's say - the director's salary cannot exceed three cleaner's salaries

          The word "let's say" - do you understand the meaning?
          Or should I look it up in the dictionary for you?
          Why are you so excited about "1:3"? Because that's what it says?
          What about your "you need to use your brain"? Doesn't that apply to you?
          Again
          For those who are in the tank
          In some small group, let's say, out of 10 people, and the ratio 1:3 would be too much
          And at some enterprise, let's say, out of 3-5 thousand people, and 1:5 will not be enough
          1. -4
            29 September 2024 23: 13
            Then, let's say 1:200. Will that do?
            1. +2
              29 September 2024 23: 17
              Quote from Sumotori_380
              Then, let's say 1:200. Will that do?

              It won't work
              The law sets 1:8
              link: http://government.ru/docs/7340/

              But, as I wrote above, managers are usually cunning, and still get around this.
        4. P
          +1
          30 September 2024 00: 18
          if mortgage payments, expenses on education, security, medicine, most expenses on children's development are completely removed from household expenses, then such differences will not seem insane. But in order to finance such public consumption funds that will close the issue, first it will be necessary to deal with the ruling class and their clientele, fight off intervention, build the state and society on other principles and for a long, long time implement the most productive technologies, breaking everyone who reaches for them with private interest
      4. -4
        29 September 2024 23: 08
        The cleaning lady washed the floor - and off she goes. And the director is under the article. Who would agree to work as a director for the work of three cleaning ladies? Besides, it could be the director of a small company with ten people. Or the director of a factory with a staff of 5000. Should they be paid the same?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Aag
          0
          30 September 2024 14: 41
          Quote from Sumotori_380
          The cleaning lady washed the floor - and off she goes. And the director is under the article. Who would agree to work as a director for the work of three cleaning ladies? Besides, it could be the director of a small company with ten people. Or the director of a factory with a staff of 5000. Should they be paid the same?

          In small, private firms, cleaners earn this amount by working in several firms, individual entrepreneurs, private entrepreneurs...
          Without belittling the risks of directors and owners of enterprises (often, - these are different people...),: it has become our custom that by opening an enterprise with three or three hundred workers you risk incomparably more than being responsible for an entire sector of the economy, the Ministry.... With several million workers... Working in Strategic Regions (Nabiullina, Siluanov, - further down the list...
          Who do they work for?
          Have you ever had similar thoughts?
          What answers have you found (at least for yourself) to this question?...
          hi
        3. 0
          1 October 2024 12: 57
          Don't worry, many people will agree. Not everyone wants to wash floors all day long.
      5. +1
        30 September 2024 13: 58
        It used to be simpler - an acceptable ratio of salaries for top and bottom management was established

        This is called the decile coefficient, and is prescribed in the national security strategy. And it means that the management salary should not exceed the salary of the lower workers by more than 10 times. If the ratio is more than ten, this creates the preconditions for a revolutionary situation.
      6. 0
        30 September 2024 19: 29
        Quote from sdivt
        Conditionally - directors and cleaners. At the enterprise, in the industry, in the country.

        After which the cleaning ladies twisted around the reproductive organ of ANY director. Because everyone wanted to be a director, but no one wanted to be a cleaning lady and there was a shortage of them.
        I saw how in Moscow in the State Planning Committee a cleaning lady explained to two deputy ministers who they were and where she had seen them - I can do that too, but I am like an AK74 - and she was shooting at them like from a KPVT.
        And they just tried to open their mouths...
        We tried to walk on the washed one, yeah...
    2. +5
      29 September 2024 20: 15
      Meanwhile, the Chinese Communist Party leadership has set a goal for the country to capture 50 percent of the world's automobile market, and so it will be. In 20 years, every second car will be Chinese.
      1. -1
        29 September 2024 20: 20
        so it will be.
        Before the sanctions, even in Russia their junk was not in great demand, and even less so in successful Western countries.
        1. 0
          29 September 2024 20: 23
          In fact, Chinese electric cars are the best, so all countries, starting with Germany, have begun to introduce protective duties against the Chinese. We also mainly buy Chinese electric cars.
          1. +3
            29 September 2024 20: 25
            Chinese Electric Cars Are The Best
            And carrots are the sweetest fruit. Yes .
            introduce protective tariffs against the Chinese.
            China has had such duties for a long time now - here is their response.
            We also mainly buy Chinese electric cars.
            No others laughing .
            1. +1
              29 September 2024 20: 27
              You are mistaken, sales statistics show that Chinese electric trains sell better than cars from the US and Europe. That is why duties are being introduced, you probably do not know that the Tesla plant in Shanghai is the only plant in China to which duties and joint venture status do not apply!
              1. -1
                29 September 2024 20: 31
                sales statistics show
                First and second place - Tesla, third - VW. Conventionally, there is only one Chinese car (built in England at a factory bought by the Chinese) in the top ten sales in Europe - MG4.
                1. -1
                  29 September 2024 20: 42
                  Oh, don't worry, this is just the beginning. In China, labor productivity is much higher than in the US and Europe, so everything will change in 10 years. This is a mathematical fact, and you can't argue with numbers!
                  1. +1
                    29 September 2024 20: 49
                    In China, labor productivity is much higher than in the US and Europe,
                    The horse worked harder than anyone else on the collective farm, but in 10 years it never became the chairman and didn't even get rich - nothing changed. That's also a fact.
                    This is just the beginning.
                    It's only in Russia that Chinese cars have become "foreign cars" because of sanctions. In normal countries, no one needs their soapboxes.
                    1. +1
                      29 September 2024 20: 56
                      90 percent of Chinese are performers, they have no goal of becoming a chairman. Nevertheless, in Shanghai the average salary reaches $4500 a month, which is more than in Moscow, and 20 years ago there was total poverty there. In China, poverty has been overcome, now they have introduced a pension, before there was none at all. The largest number of billionaires in China, a widespread increase in wages. I am not even talking about the fact that China has the most developed infrastructure in the world today. Do you need to remind you what it was like there 30 years ago? Now various social packages for the poor are being actively introduced. At the same time, the young generation of Chinese employees are aimed at capturing world markets, 10 years ago most of them could not leave their native villages, they had never even seen foreigners.
                      1. 0
                        29 September 2024 21: 05
                        In Shanghai, the average salary reaches $4500 per month
                        Because that is where the head offices of Western corporations are concentrated, with hefty salaries, mostly for their own people.
                        China's real per capita GDP is lower than Russia's.