The Dark Teutonic Genius Who Ruined the Kriegsmarine

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The Dark Teutonic Genius Who Ruined the Kriegsmarine

Of course, the fact that the Kriegsmarine suffered a complete defeat in the Second World War, without really having fought (the surface part fleet), in contrast to the marine aviation and submarine forces, had several reasons.

Here, of course, a very important role was played by a certain lack of initiative on the part of the German admirals, due to which a decent number of ships were lost, the frankly small composition of the fleet, which could not compete with the British at all, and what we will now talk about. About the qualitative composition of the Kriegsmarine.



Everyone has heard this expression about the "gloomy Teutonic genius". I don't know how much of a genius he was, but the fact is that he was gloomy. And in a rather gloomy state, the entire leadership of the Third Reich's navy was engaged in, frankly speaking, strange things: building a fleet. But how...


In the interwar period, having lost the entire High Seas Fleet after the First World War, the Germans drew the right conclusions: it is impossible to fight Great Britain at sea, let's not look for adventures in the midships. And on top of that, Versailles pretty well cut off the oxygen supply to German shipbuilders.

But then 1933 began and Germany, which had become the Third Reich, began rearmament. That is, the creation of an army and navy, which in 1939, in fact, unleashed the Second World War.

That it was simply a finished adventure is clear and understandable today, but Hitler managed to cut off lands on which there was much that was useful in terms of industry and human resources. However, a more or less sensible plan for war with Great Britain appeared only in 1938. The so-called "Plan Z". Yes, and rearmament began already in 1933. At least a year later, destroyers of the "1934" type and submarines were being built in full swing.

And this is a very interesting point: the fleet was being built, but there was no plan for war with the main naval enemy. That is, the revival of the Kriegsmarine began simply and uncomplicatedly: we build, and then we'll figure it out! Yes, Mr. Kaiser didn't have much of a plan in this regard, but under Hitler, utter chaos began.

The beginning was quite good: Hitler and his comrades began to put pressure on the British with all their might, asking them to lift restrictions on the construction of their fleet, and they did it competently. The requests were in this vein: let us build a fleet that will be only a third of yours. And Britain will have nothing to fear, and we will be happy.

And the British… agreed! Yes, this is the same situation when if you can’t prevent a drinking party – lead it! If they had banned it, then perhaps everything would have gone down a completely different path, but the British, having tasted the delights of the Germans in the First World War, absolutely did not want a repeat, that is, catching German raiders all over the world and starving because of submarines. Although they had to again, everything could have been much worse.


The worst thing for Great Britain is a war on communications. The empire depended on supplies from its colonies, and if the supplies were interrupted, everything would collapse just fine. And there would be no need to even make a show of forcing the English Channel: the starving British would transport the occupiers home on their ships. Occupy them, just give them something to eat!

Therefore, a brilliant plan was born in the depths of the British Naval Ministry: yes, Germany is allowed to build ships, but the German fleet will be limited in tonnage proportionally to the British. And the cunning British simply will not build new ships, so the Germans will simply hit a tonnage ceiling: they will not be able to build new submarines or cruisers, this will be a violation of the treaty. And since this ceiling can only be increased by building new ships on the part of England, the Germans are stuck at a fleet limit that guarantees their defeat in a future war with England. And they are stuck completely voluntarily, no one forced them to sign this treaty.

And the treacherous British still have plenty of little ships from the First World War, which, let us note, despite their backwardness, fought quite well throughout the Second World War. Like the same Warspite.


No, guys, having eaten a deer on various intrigues, easily and naturally beat the German corporal. Hitler lost back in 1935, when the German-British naval treaty was signed. And when they finally managed to write "Plan Z", it was already too late to build ships for it. But the time came to dismantle the ships. And the order was given to complete the battleships "Bismarck" and "Tirpitz", the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin", the heavy cruisers "Seydlitz" and "Prinz Eugen", but all the other ships were to be dismantled on the slipways. And there was something there...


But the Germans wanted to build more than just a fleet! In reality, everyone understood perfectly well that they couldn't take Britain head-on, since the Home Fleet alone was three times larger than the entire newly built German fleet. And there were also fleets in the Mediterranean and so on.

That's why the Germans decided to build a fleet of RAIDERS! That is, not only a large surface fleet, but also an underwater fleet, submarines were also given a significant role.

Here it is appropriate to cite one quote from the book by Eberhard Rössler “The U-boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines”:

"...The Naval Staff believed that a "balanced fleet" was necessary for a war with England: in a campaign against merchant shipping, the greatest effectiveness would be achieved through the interaction of heavy surface ships, air forces, and submarines... If offensive operations were carried out using submarines alone, significant success should not be expected." The following considerations were given as justification for the last point: the English had made significant progress in anti-submarine warfare (ASDIC), and there was also a possibility that submarine warfare would be conducted in accordance with prize law."


In general, it is presented very well: the German naval general staff understood back in 1938 that, following the example of the First World War, it would not be possible to organize a blockade of Britain using only submarines. Surface ships were needed that would disperse corvettes, frigates and destroyers with sonars, and naval aviation would counter the enemy in the sky.

What happened? Well, the fiasco of the Third Reich's naval aviation is solely on Goering's conscience, but with the surface ships, things turned out very peculiar.

The dark Teutonic genius whispered (apparently, together with Cthulhu) to one of the admirals the “recipe for success” and Germany began to build ships. And very strange ships, at that.

1. Bismarck-class battleships.



Yes, it has already become a classic, mentioning these monsters, but: if you compare the Bismarck with its British counterparts, at least with the King George V, the German battleship surpassed its British counterparts primarily in terms of speed and cruising range. Moreover, in terms of range, it was almost twice as long. And the Bismarck had a very impressive artilleryBut in terms of armor, the British battleships were better.

And this with approximately the same displacement. The Bismarck could travel 6 km further than its British counterpart at the same speed. The Bismarck was 000-4 knots faster, but the air force negated all the advantages. As a result, the raider battleships, frankly speaking, did not cause as much damage as was expected of them. Of course, the sunken newest battlecruiser Hood is true, but what does it mean for Britain to build a ship of this class, and what does it mean for Germany to lose such a battleship?

2. Scharnhorst-class battleships



Is this a battleship? No. This is not a battleship. The only thing these ships had in common with battleships was their name, because in terms of displacement and main caliber, they were something… abstract. Unparalleled in the world, as they would say now.

Rather, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau can be compared with the battlecruisers of the First World War, such as the Renown: approximately the same displacement (about 32 tons), approximately the same speed of 000-31 knots, but the range of the German ship was 32 km greater, and the armor was better.

But there were 20 years between these ships. Quite a long time. Nevertheless, the encounter between the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and the Renown was not in the Germans' favor: the Renown's armor withstood hits from 283 mm shells from the German ships, but the Gneisenau had problems after being hit by a British 381 mm shell.

Taking advantage of their speed, the Germans escaped, spending an hour and a half to break away from the Renown. In general, the pair drank the British blood to their hearts' content, which was only worth two destroyers and an aircraft carrier sunk by the Germans, but the Glories had to pay for a long repair when the Scharnhorst choked on a British torpedo. And one was enough for the crew to have something to do in terms of survivability.

In general, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau cannot be considered battleships. They are battlecruisers with a focus on raiding. Although if you look at the performance characteristics of the battlecruiser Hood, they are not even considered battlecruisers.

And the best confirmation of this will be that very December battle, in which the Duke of York treated the Scharnhorst to 14 356-mm shells, and the destroyers achieved 19 torpedo hits. But if the first shell of the British battleship had not hit the boiler rooms, the Scharnhorst would have definitely left. And so – the finale...

But overall, the Scharnhorst was the ideal raider. Its 283 mm guns were more than enough to take apart any enemy cruiser, and its speed and range allowed it to operate on communications. The crew simply chose an enemy that was not their own, meaning that the raider was completely useless for battles in a squadron with heavier ships.

3. Heavy cruiser of the Deutschland class.



Also a raider. And a pronounced one at that. The displacement of the three ships of this type was different, fluctuating between 13 and 16 tons. The unique power plant of two-stroke diesel engines from MAN allowed them to travel simply staggering distances on one tank of gas (up to 000 km). Plus a decent speed for diesels, the same 32 knots.

As the practice of the Admiral Graf Spee showed, a battery of six 283 mm guns is enough to cope with even three cruiser-class opponents. If the Spee's commander had not been so hysterical, everything could have turned out differently. But it turned out that six sunken cargo ships and an equal fight with three British cruisers followed by sinking were all that the Spee could boast of, but the paradox is that it had more successes than its sister ships.

The ships were classified as heavy cruisers and yes, they almost matched it. But let's say this - again, armor was sacrificed for everything else, and as for the armament, the 10 203mm barrels of the Japanese Mogami look more impressive than 6 barrels, albeit 283mm.

Of course, any cruiser that came under fire from the Deutschlands would feel very uncomfortable, but here's the problem - the raiders were being hunted by larger class ships. The same Spee was being chased by two aircraft carriers, two battleships and one battlecruiser. And meeting such opponents did not bode well.

4. Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruiser.



And – again a raider! A huge ship, with a displacement greater than the “Deutschlands”, about 18 tons, with a decent speed (over 000 knots), relatively good range and very modest armor. The armament of these ships for such a displacement was more than modest – only 32 guns of 8-mm caliber, but a very impressive set of auxiliary and anti-aircraft calibers plus 203 (!!) torpedo tubes.

The ships turned out to be not very maneuverable precisely because of their size, which was demonstrated by the battle on December 31, when two British light cruisers, Sheffield and Jamaica, thoroughly damaged the Hipper, although everything should have been the other way around.

But as a raider, the Hipper practically destroyed one convoy in the North Atlantic.

"Blyukher" without firing a single shot at the enemy, went to the bottom from two 280-mm shells and two torpedoes of the Norwegians. The large ship in the narrow Norwegian fjords became a very easy target.

Almost all four of the listed classes of ships had a raider specialization. In principle, the Kriegsmarine could not have acted any other way, because there were not enough ships. But what was available was clearly used awry because there was no proper understanding of how to use these ships. Therefore, all these overweight raider cruisers did not bring the same effect as ordinary auxiliary cruisers made from civilian ships.

But Germany demonstrated its desire for something “unparalleled in the world” to the fullest extent. Indeed, the Deutschlands were unique ships in many respects. But their uniqueness backfired – the same Admiral Scheer could not meet a worthy opponent in Operation Wonderland for the reason that the USSR did not have ships in the North that could at least theoretically offer resistance.

But if you think that the issue is in battleships and super-heavy cruisers, then no. Gigantomania in ship construction was observed not only in these classes.

5. Destroyers of project 1936/1936A



A destroyer or destroyer is a class that everyone understands. A small ship with universal artillery and torpedoes.


The American Fletcher, certainly one of the best ships of this class, had a displacement of 2200-2300 tons. Our Type 7 Soobrazitelny - 2400 tons. But the German destroyers are something else.

It is very difficult to say why and for what purpose these ships were created. 3470 tons displacement with a length of 123 meters (Fletcher had a displacement of 4 tons and a length of 2200 meters with approximately the same set of weapons), the ships turned out to be fast (up to 114 knots) but not very seaworthy and slightly clumsy. Which in general affected their fate: 42 of the 5 destroyers perished in Norway, in the Battle of Narvik. Three from artillery fire from British destroyers and two from their torpedoes.

And only one, the Karl Galster, was able to survive until the end of the war and was transferred to the Soviet Union as reparations.

But the gloomy Teutonic genius would not be like this if he had not come up with something else! And this “something else” became the destroyers of the 1936A and 1936A (Mob) types.


Yes, these destroyers “lost weight” compared to the previous class and their displacement was 2700-3000 tons, but in terms of armament, there was a complete breakthrough: 4 or 5 (depending on the bow turret) 150 mm caliber guns!!!

In essence, it turned out to be a ship similar to the French destroyer leaders of the Jaguar or Guetard type. But even those frankly not small ships (2700-3200 tons) could boast of 130-mm or 138-mm main caliber guns. And here - 150-mm. The British light cruiser of the Arethusa type carried armament of 6 152-mm guns.

So here it turns out even close to a light cruiser. But the question arises - why? A destroyer with a displacement of 2 tons is not such a stable artillery platform as a cruiser with a displacement of about 700 tons. This is understandable. But nevertheless, for some reason, German designers made destroyers with cruiser armament. Approximately like a cruiser with guns almost of the class of a battleship (6 mm). And with approximately the same efficiency.

6. Torpedo boat type 1939 "Elbing".



What do we understand when we hear the phrase "torpedo boat"? Usually we imagine either our G-5, a small boat with a displacement of 15 tons, armed with two machine guns (DA or DShK) and two 533-mm torpedoes. Or the American Elko or RT-103, on which the future US President John Kennedy served. This is already a decent vessel with a displacement of as much as 56 tons, armed with a 37-mm automatic cannon, two 12,7-mm machine guns and four torpedoes. And with a crew of 15 people, these were the largest torpedo boats in the American fleet.

But they are not comparable to the German ones...

So, the torpedo boat of the gloomy Teutonic genius. This is a ship with a displacement of 1294 tons, a length of more than 100 meters, armed with 4 105-mm guns, 2 triple-tube torpedo launchers and 10 anti-aircraft artillery barrels of 37-mm (4 pcs.) and 20-mm (6 pcs.) caliber. The speed is not very high, 33-34 knots, the cruising range is 4500 km.

This is a German torpedo boat.


A total of 15 of them were built, of which 4 saw the end of the war. These were universal ships, quite effective in combat. Thus, five of these boats went into battle against six British destroyers and the light cruiser Charybdis, protecting the blockade runner Münsterland with strategically important cargo. As a result, the cruiser Charybdis and the destroyer Limbourne went to the bottom, and the convoy successfully broke through to Germany.

It's okay, the next generation of Type 40 "torpedo boats" was supposed to have a displacement of 1960 tons and carry armament of 4 128 mm guns, 4 37 mm guns, 16 20 mm barrels, 2 quadruple 533 mm torpedo tubes and four depth charge launchers. And 50 mines to make it even.

This horror was never built, but you must agree that the difference between this “torpedo boat” and a destroyer is now practically imperceptible.

7. Submarines.



The fact that Germany was able to build more than two thousand submarines is in itself impressive. Both in quantity and quality, because with rare exceptions, the Germans built very decent boats.

It is very difficult to say what would have happened if Germany's shipyards had not been building absolutely useless super battleships, super heavy cruisers and all that stuff. As Rössler's quote above said, the largest submarine fleet was not capable of blockading trade routes and bringing Britain to its knees before starvation.

The submarine of that time was more of a diving one, because it could not spend a long time underwater. Both the air supply and the power of the batteries did not allow it. Therefore, on the surface, these boats were more than vulnerable, first of all, to aviation. British Sunderlands and Beaufighters terrorized a large number of German submarines, quite normally competing with the anti-submarine ships of convoys going to British ports from former and not so former colonies.

But the Kriegsmarine didn't have enough escort ships, although in principle a "torpedo boat" could have handled the task. And then the gloomy Teutonic genius in 1942 came up with something called the U-flak or "Anti-aircraft traps".


Submarines were re-equipped, usually instead of an 88-mm or 105-mm gun, a 37-mm machine gun or two 20-mm automatic guns were installed, and two quadruple 20-mm mounts were placed behind the conning tower on the platform.


A total of four boats were converted into U-flaks: U-441, U-256, U-621 and U-953. Of these, only U-441 could boast of relatively decent results – one sunken ship and three downed aircraft. In the last battle, three Beaufighters riddled the boat so much that it had to be sent for major repairs and converted back there.

"Cash Cows" Series XIV.



This is also a unique solution to supply problems in the world. Transport boats without torpedo armament, not fast, but capable of delivering to their boats more than 600 tons of fuel oil for diesel engines, 13 tons of oils, 4 torpedoes in external containers, up to 2 tons of water and about a ton of food in refrigerators.

The idea is very interesting, and the "cash cows" were used very actively in the Atlantic, but at the same time they gained the love and respect of the Allies, who sent entire squads to search for and destroy these submarines. And in the end, they destroyed every single one.

What was all this started for?

Indeed, for what purpose? If with transport and anti-aircraft submarines everything was more or less clear, these were “crutches” that were able to somehow solve the problem of moving submarines in the same Bay of Biscay, then the rest of the ships look like a kind of samurai’s path, which has no goal.

In fact, the Germans had a goal: they were well aware that the Kriegsmarine would not be able to stand up to the Royal Navy under any circumstances. These old turtles from the First World War would sooner or later find themselves in a situation where they could pick apart the German "wonder ships". Which is what actually happened with the Bismarck and Scharnhorst. For the rest, aviation was more than enough.

There was only one thing left – raider attacks on convoys with food for Britain. And here the main mistake of the creators of the Kriegsmarine came into play. Yes, propaganda is a great thing, and of course, the beautiful battleships and cruisers, proudly cutting through the waves – it is impressive.

But let's look at the results of these ships' activities.


"Bismarck" - 1 ship sunk, battlecruiser "Hood". Sunk by ships.
"Tirpitz" - 0. Destroyed by aircraft.

"Scharnhorst" - 1 aircraft carrier and 2 destroyers (together with "Gneisenau"), 1 auxiliary cruiser, 8 transport ships. Sunk by ships.
"Gneisenau" - 1 aircraft carrier and 2 destroyers (together with "Scharnhorst"), 13 transport ships. Destroyed by aircraft in port.

"Deutschland" - 2 merchant ships. Destroyed by aircraft in port.
"Admiral Scheer" - 1 auxiliary cruiser, 25 merchant ships, 1 icebreaker. Destroyed by aircraft in port.
"Admiral Graf Spee" - 9 transport ships. Sunk by crew.
"Admiral Hipper" - 2 destroyers, 1 minesweeper, 16 transport ships. Destroyed by aircraft in port.
"Blyukher" - 0. Sunk by coastal artillery on the first sortie.
"Prince Eugen" - 0. Lived until the end of the war.

In total, 10 of the largest German ships, of which only one saw the end of the war, were sunk:
- 1 aircraft carrier;
- 1 battlecruiser;
- 4 destroyers;
- 2 auxiliary cruisers;
- 1 minesweeper;
- 1 icebreaker;
- 71 transport ships.

For two battleships, two half-battleships and six heavy cruisers, it looks frankly pathetic against the backdrop of the achievements of the German auxiliary cruisers, converted from commercial ships and crewed by volunteers.


For example - "Cormoran"

9 raider-auxiliary cruisers sank a total of 139 ships and vessels, including 1 light cruiser, 1 auxiliary cruiser and 137 transports.

And here there is no need to comment on anything, because it becomes clear that gigantomania and propaganda in the Third Reich prevailed over practicality and reason. Of course, no one is talking about the need to massively build submarines and raiders from dry cargo ships, but statistics show that the German surface navy was clearly inferior in efficiency to the pirate fleet of raiders.

Let me emphasize that we are talking about a blockade of Britain.

But if we are talking about something else, alas, other than the operation in Norway, which cost the Kriegsmarine a brand new heavy cruiser and a bunch of destroyers (again, brand new), there is nothing more to talk about.

Let us emphasize in bold – ALL The combat activities of the Kriegsmarine were limited to disrupting supplies to Britain and the Soviet Union. They did a little shooting at the advancing Soviet troops in the Baltics. And indeed, the surface part of the Kriegsmarine calmly sank under English and American bombs.

The Kriegsmarine's submarine forces were clearly more effective. In total, German submarines sank 2 merchant ships and 759 Allied ships, including:
- 2 battleships;
- 3 aircraft carriers;
- 3 escort aircraft carriers.

The price paid for this was the loss of 630 Kriegsmarine submarines, but still – no comparison.

The dark Teutonic genius that drove the Third Reich leadership to build completely useless but impressive ships practically destroyed all chances of the Kriegsmarine for not only victory, but even for some semblance of confrontation.

Battleship raiders and cruiser raiders, distracting the air force, staged epic breakthroughs into the Atlantic and tried to make something of themselves there, while commercial steamships transported much-needed strategic raw materials to Germany and valiantly sank the same enemy transport ships.

And Hitler tried to stop the stupidity in shipbuilding, canceling the super battleships of the "N" project and a bunch of other ships that Germany, having flown into the war, could no longer build. But it was too late, because the war was already underway, the ships that could not help in this war were already built. And absolutely ineffectively, so to speak, they sailed towards their death, and the damage caused to the enemy in comparison with the cost of these ships can be considered minimal.

It is very surprising to read how yesterday and today some extol the creations of this very Teutonic. They say, wow, what terrible ships the Bismarck and Tirpitz were, how the British were afraid of them...


Of course they were afraid. In Valentin Pikul's novels. It's just worth recalling the balance of power on 1.09.1939 between the Royal Navy and the Kriegsmarine:

Britain: 15 battleships and battlecruisers (5 more under construction), Germany – 4.
Britain: 7 aircraft carriers (5 under construction), Germany – 0.
Britain: 66 cruisers (23 under construction), Germany – 12.
Britain: 184 destroyers (52 under construction), Germany – 41.
And only in submarines did Germany have a huge advantage.

If the Germans had not been busy building ships that were purely propaganda (I am talking about the Bismarck and the Tirpitz), if the Germans had really started creating a raider fleet to starve Britain to death, they would not have needed to build super battleships and super cruisers. More useful ships could and should have been built, but alas – the metal had already been cut and welded, and the gloomy Teutonic genius could only greet the German sailors from the battleships and cruisers at the entrance to Valhalla.
210 comments
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  1. +34
    26 September 2024 06: 02
    This is not an article, but a complete Petrosyanism. Take this passage:
    the newest battle cruiser "Hood" - that's it

    The newest one, straight from the needle, entered service in 1920. If you write, then at least don’t talk nonsense.
    1. +12
      26 September 2024 09: 38
      The article in general is "a collection of nonsense, plucked from Wikipedia"))) complete nonsense, with the exception of a few well-known facts.
      1. There were no plans - Raeder wrote "The Cruiser War" back in 1928. Anyone with a brain understood what the book was about.
      2. "Tirpitz" is much stronger than "King George" and no specifics))) how exactly is it better? There is no point in analyzing it in detail - the whole article is one big nonsense. Why post this?
      1. IVZ
        +6
        26 September 2024 10: 07
        I agree about the inaccuracies. The displacement of destroyers is compared to the standard American and the full German. Torpedo boats, and of a very well-known design, are classified as boats. You won't find this even in Wikipedia.
        1. +10
          26 September 2024 12: 06
          I was also stunned by the torpedo boat "Leopard"))) the author at least thought about what he was painting)))
          1. +4
            26 September 2024 15: 19
            Quote: TermNachTER
            the author at least thought about what he was painting)))

            And the author is Roma Skomorokhov. He never thinks about what he writes.
            1. +6
              26 September 2024 15: 48
              It's good for him - his thought is extraordinary)))
      2. +2
        26 September 2024 17: 47
        Quote: TermNachTER
        There were no plans - Raeder wrote "The Cruiser War" back in 1928. Anyone with a brain understood what the book was about.

        Actually, the first edition was 1922-24.
        1. 0
          27 September 2024 07: 46
          Perhaps, I won't argue. I read somewhere that all two volumes came out in 1928, although I might have forgotten.
      3. 0
        27 September 2024 02: 05
        You see it this way, and the author sees it this way!
    2. +1
      26 September 2024 14: 12
      "Tirpitz" - 0. Destroyed by aircraft.

      As far as I remember, our timber carrier was sunk - the same Pikul has it...
      Well, the author forgot why the 17th convoy was disbanded... request
      1. +3
        26 September 2024 15: 50
        Pikul is a writer, but not a historian. Valentin Savvich had a weakness for sometimes presenting his ideas as reality. Although he wrote good books, although his method is not new, Dumas père wrote the same way. He took well-known historical events and supplemented them with his own thoughts.
        1. -1
          26 September 2024 15: 53
          "In early March 1942, the Germans attempted to intercept convoys PQ-12 and QP-8. PQ-12 left a port in Iceland on March 1, 1942, and QP-8 left Murmansk at about the same time. On March 5, Tirpitz, accompanied by three destroyers, left the base and headed across the Arctic Ocean to Bear Island. Due to bad weather, the convoys were not found, and only one of the destroyers discovered and sank the Soviet timber carrier Izhora, which had fallen behind QP-8 and was lost with its entire crew."
          1. +1
            26 September 2024 15: 59
            This is from Pikul's book, but it is not entirely true. Firstly, Pikul had his own likes and dislikes, and secondly, he wrote when the USSR still existed. If the book were not in line with this, it might not be published.
            1. 0
              26 September 2024 16: 00
              Quote: TermNachTER
              This is from Pikul's book,

              Not at all, it's Vicky bully
              1. +1
                26 September 2024 16: 27
                Vika is also a source, to put it mildly, so-so. It is known who edits Vika.
                1. 0
                  27 September 2024 01: 06
                  Vika is also a source, to put it mildly, so-so. It is known who edits Vika.
                  In some cases, in that Vika it happens that "so-so" is a very mild assessment!
                  1. +1
                    27 September 2024 07: 44
                    Well, there's no need to go to extremes, everyone has the right to their own opinion. Although, I agree with you, sometimes complete nonsense happens.
                2. 0
                  27 September 2024 13: 39
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  It is known who edits Wiki.

                  I understand that you can't say anything about the essence of the discussion? That's why you started squashing the sources? bully Is this a form of covering up your own illiteracy? OK, RIA Novosti is right for you? Or are they also a foreign agent for you? bully
                  "The first ship lost on the northern convoy route was on January 7, 1942. It was the British steamship Waziristan, which was part of convoy PQ-7. The first major operation of German surface forces against allied convoys was carried out in March 1942 (code name "Sportpalace"). The battleship Tirpitz, escorted by three destroyers and submarines, set out to intercept convoy QP-8. The German destroyer sank the ships that had fallen behind the convoy timber carrier "Izhora" with a load of boards."
                  https://ria.ru/20210831/konvoy-1747847229.html
                  you don't have to apologize... hi
                  1. +1
                    27 September 2024 14: 11
                    Specifically, what do you want to discuss?))) About Pikul's work? About who edits Vika? About military actions in the Arctic? About military actions at sea during WWII, I can discuss for a year. At the University I wrote a diploma on WWII and took information not from Vika. I still have it somewhere on an external drive.
                    1. -1
                      27 September 2024 14: 22
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Specifically, what do you want to discuss?

                      Quote: DrEng02
                      As far as I remember, our timber carrier was sunk.

                      Further, your empty talk is about nothing. request
                      And if the diploma is good, publish it on the website - we will read it... hi
                      1. +1
                        27 September 2024 16: 19
                        The diploma is kept in the University archive, and I think it has already been burned, a quarter of a century has passed. Well, they sank a timber truck. What is the subject of discussion?
                      2. -1
                        27 September 2024 16: 23
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I still have it somewhere on an external drive.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The diploma is kept in the University archive, and I think it has already been burned, a quarter of a century has passed.

                        you are hard to understand ... bully
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, the timber truck was sunk.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Vika is also a source, to put it mildly, so-so.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        This is from Pikul's book, but it is not entirely true.

                        I enjoy communicating with you - every message is self-defeating... crying
                        Good luck! drinks
                      3. +1
                        27 September 2024 16: 29
                        On my external drive I have books downloaded from the Internet, which were used as sources when writing my diploma. Is it news that the diploma remains in the university archive after the defense?))) And where, excuse me, did you study?))) Any historian will tell you that Vika and Pikul's books, from the point of view of historical science, are not sources at all. All the best
                      4. -1
                        27 September 2024 16: 41
                        The fun evening continues... crying
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Is it news that the diploma remains in the university archive after its defense?

                        Why not? However, it can be taken away by writing a statement... bully
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        and where, excuse me, did you study?

                        Where you would never be accepted - to FTF TPI bully Decipher? feel
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Any historian will tell you that Vika and Pikul's books, from the point of view of historical science, are not sources at all.

                        I kindly gave you a link to the RIA Novosti website - a state...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        All the best

                        And you! hi
                      5. +1
                        27 September 2024 17: 18
                        They won't hire me anywhere, I'm retired))) and about the diploma. As one of the greats said: "Having a diploma is not a sign of intelligence)))
                      6. 0
                        27 September 2024 17: 33
                        Once again you have lived up to my expectations! bully
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        They won't hire me anywhere anymore, I'm retired)

                        You wouldn't have gotten in even after 10th grade, a guy applying to be a history major is a symptom... laughing
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Having a diploma is not a sign of intelligence))

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Is it news that the diploma remains in the university archive after the defense?))) And where, excuse me, did you study?))

                        You are so consistent... bully
                      7. +1
                        27 September 2024 19: 14
                        And I studied history by correspondence, after finishing the naval school, when I was already working in the police. And we had a graduate of the mechanical engineering institute working for us - wooden to the waist))) you don't need much intelligence, go to lectures, take notes - you're already guaranteed a 3)))
                      8. 0
                        29 September 2024 15: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And I'm a historian in absentia studied,

                        Then everything is clear ... hi
                        Quote: militarist63
                        You are so bloated with self-esteem... you are just a narcissist!

                        Not everyone suffers from complexes of lack of positive self-esteem, like you... bully
                        Quote: militarist63
                        disdain

                        Senka's hat is just right... reread the thread... hi
                        Quote: militarist63
                        and you didn't have a glow around your head

                        I have always observed and continue to observe safety precautions... bully
                        Quote: militarist63
                        Too shy to ask,

                        don't be shy, and at the same time tell us your university and faculty... or are you ashamed? feel We've already found a behind-the-ear historian for a star on his shoulder straps... request
                      9. 0
                        29 September 2024 16: 26
                        Boy, I have already proved everything to myself and to people in this life. And what people think and say about me - I don't give a damn))) and judging by your cheap show-off, it is obvious that you studied at the physics and technology department of the Moscow Institute of Thermal Engineering)) but what is this show-off for? One of dozens of Moscow institutes, far from the most prestigious. And they took anyone there, with a Moscow residence permit, the main thing is that he was not a stupid person)))
                      10. 0
                        29 September 2024 17: 26
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Boy,

                        You made me laugh once again... bully
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And I don't give a damn what people think and say about me.

                        Not at all, otherwise you wouldn't be writing here... hi
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        did you study

                        Have we switched to informal terms? Keep yourself within limits... feel
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Moscow Institute of Thermal Engineering)) only

                        Quote: DrEng02
                        TPI

                        You are so illiterate that not only can't you decipher TPI, but you also write VUZ with the abbreviation MIT... Haven't you overworked yourself at the keyboard? lol Let me kindly decipher it for you - this is Tomsk Polytechnic, one of the oldest and best technical universities in the country... fool
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        They took anyone there, with a Moscow residence permit, the main thing is that he wasn't a stupid person

                        It's funny, you've defiled the staff of an entire university, but you consider yourself smart, I'll disappoint you - not at all... However, a behind-the-ear historian - a cop is fate... bully
                      11. +1
                        28 September 2024 01: 07
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        and where, excuse me, did you study?

                        Where you would never be accepted - to FTF TPI bully Decipher? feel

                        You are so bloated with self-esteem... you are just a narcissist! laughing And at the same time, a dismissive attitude towards the interlocutor....

                        I'm embarrassed to ask, but did you develop a glow around your head (like a physical-technical one)...? wink
    3. 0
      29 September 2024 16: 29
      I wanted to write about the same thing, but you managed to do it earlier.
  2. +3
    26 September 2024 06: 03
    So they lost, now any of their undertakings and achievements can be smashed to smithereens...
    And it doesn’t matter that Duce had “the most beautiful battleships”, he is also among the losers.
    1. +3
      26 September 2024 16: 32
      A beautiful battleship is a very vague formulation))) experts do not rate battleships like "Vittorio Veneto" very highly. Average "Washington" battleships, nothing more. Nothing outstanding. Actually, both Hitler and Duce could compare demographic, economic, geographic parameters and come to the conclusion - maybe there is no need to fight, but to solve problems in some other way?
  3. +13
    26 September 2024 06: 31
    The Bismarck could travel 6 km further at the same speed than its British counterpart.

    Unlike Britain, Germany had no naval bases scattered across the ocean where it could replenish its food and fuel supplies, so the Germans built ships with a long range, based on the well-known rule - I carry everything that is mine with meThe Russian pre-revolutionary fleet was built according to approximately the same rules...
    1. +1
      26 September 2024 15: 52
      To supply the raiders, 10 tankers were deployed in the Atlantic - supply ships. But after the sinking of the "Bismarck" they were quickly re-sunk, thanks to the "Ultra".
  4. +4
    26 September 2024 06: 36
    Bismarck was faster than Zhorik by about 1,5 knots, and 380 mm is not 460 or even 406.
    1. +8
      26 September 2024 07: 08
      Yes, Skomorokhov looked at the speed for Kings in the characteristics of the 1911 King George V. Roma doesn't have "time for slow dancing" to figure out such nuances, he needs to scribble articles.
    2. +2
      26 September 2024 12: 09
      1,5 knots - this is on a measured mile, in good weather. In reality, on the open sea, in fresh weather, considering that the Wagner boilers installed on the Bismarck were very unique in terms of reliability, there might not have been any advantage at all.
      1. +1
        26 September 2024 18: 00
        Quote: TermNachTER
        1,5 knots is on a measured mile, in good weather.

        On the measured mile in good weather the difference was greater - 31 knots for the Bismarck versus 28,3 for the Duke of York (the fastest of the Kings).

        Quote: TermNachTER
        In reality, on the open sea, in fresh weather, given that the Wagner boilers installed on the Bismarck were quite unique in terms of reliability, there might not have been any advantage at all.

        If we are to believe the Eugen's ZHBD, there were no problems with choosing the speed of the detachment's movement.
        1. 0
          27 September 2024 16: 24
          For some reason, these 31 knots did not help the Bismarck when it was being sunk. The speed obtained on a measured mile is a fairly relative value. In the open ocean, everything is a little different, there is a storm, especially in the North Atlantic, and the contours of the underwater part of the hull.
          As far as I remember, the Eigen had Lamont boilers, so its cruising range, as for a cruiser, is generally shameful - 6000 miles, in reality even a little less. So we had to quickly run to Brest, the fuel was already at the bottom.
          1. 0
            27 September 2024 18: 34
            Quote: TermNachTER
            For some reason, these 31 knots did not help the Bismarck at all when it was being sunk.

            Because the steering was out of order.

            Quote: TermNachTER
            In the open ocean, everything is a little different: there are storms, especially in the North Atlantic, and the contours of the underwater part of the hull.

            It was quite capable of maintaining 29 knots. Brinkmann writes about this.
            At least 28 knots are confirmed by the British.

            Quote: TermNachTER
            As far as I remember, the Eigen had Lamont boilers, so its cruising range, as a cruiser, is generally shameful - 6000 miles, in reality even a little less.

            6750 at 15 knots.

            Quote: TermNachTER
            That's why we had to quickly run to Brest, as the fuel was already running low.

            Simply amazing knowledge about the course of Operation Rheinübung... laughing
  5. +21
    26 September 2024 06: 43
    Torpedo boat type 1939 "Elbing"

    Calling destroyers torpedo boats is a masterpiece. It became clear that the author, not knowing the subject, used a botched translation of a foreign source.
    1. +6
      26 September 2024 06: 55
      The main thing here is more pictures.
    2. +9
      26 September 2024 08: 19
      It became clear that the author, not knowing the subject, used a poor translation of a foreign source.

      Sure. Torpedo boat in German is torpedoboot. Torpedo boat - Motortorpedoboot.
      1. +8
        26 September 2024 09: 50
        Quote from solar
        Destroyer in German is torpedoboot
        Torpedoboot or Zerstörer destroyer, Motortorpedoboot torpedo boat, Schnellboot or S-boot.
        I always thought that it would be better to place such articles in the "History" section rather than "Weapons".
        Regarding Roman's criticism, let us recall "HOW I EDITED AN AGRICULTURAL NEWSPAPER" by Mark Twain.
        And you still want to teach me the business of a magazine! Dear sir, I have done it from alpha to omega, and now I tell you: the less a man knows, the more he can attract attention to himself and the more respect he can demand! Rest assured that if I were only an ignoramus instead of being educated, and an impudent man instead of being modest, then I would have easily acquired a name for myself in this cold world that has corrupted itself long ago.

        Perhaps this author's provocation can explain the surge in comments and general interest.
        1. +7
          26 September 2024 10: 08
          In my opinion, the problem is that the editorial policy has changed, which has led to the fact that there are very few third-party authors, and the staff simply do not have time to produce any quality content. :((
        2. +2
          26 September 2024 16: 05
          The Germans, of course, had a somewhat confusing classification system in general and destroyer ships in particular. Including such a joke as "escort ships", which were also destroyers. But if the author wanted, he could figure it out.
  6. +9
    26 September 2024 07: 14
    Another amateur's nonsense.
    There is nothing to even analyze, just set up a bunch of raiders and send them one way against UNORGANIZED merchants.
    With the start of the war, raiders will not be able to go out to sea en masse.
    Those who managed to get to sea will not be able to attack the convoys with cover (the most valuable ones).
    Those who hang out at sea will also not be able to bunker en masse.
    They also won’t be able to chase convoys or lie in wait in areas (as Deinitz’s flocks did).
    So many crappy crafts are not a fleet.
    The construction of battleships in the Third Reich was of a frankly propagandistic nature - only two more or less full-fledged ones. The main mistake was not in the construction of battleships, but in the absence of Strategic Aviation under a SEPARATE command from Goering. This force in alliance with the Kriegsmarine could have broken the backbone of the island part of Great Britain.
  7. +10
    26 September 2024 07: 16
    Have you ever heard of the term "Fleet in being"?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being
    But it was invented back in the 12th century, and it fully justified itself then, and in later times too. The much smaller Kaiser's Hochseeflotte (high seas fleet) tied down the British Grand Fleet, simply standing in ports under the protection of its shore batteries. But the Grand Fleet could have found a better use, for example, supporting the landing in the Black Sea straits, for which, for lack of anything better, the Entente sent a flotilla of obsolete pre-dreadnought battleships armed with equally obsolete 14-inch guns. And if the newest battleships with longer-range, rapid-fire, and, most importantly, destructive 15-XNUMX-inch guns had been there, the result of the landing could have been different.
    So, even a single Tirpitz, or a pair of sisters Gneisenau and Scharnhorst, represented this very Fleet in being, forcing the British to keep much superior forces ready just in case they left the port.
    And yes, yes "If the commander of the Spee had not been so hysterical, everything might have turned out differently." If Captain Hans Langsdorff, instead of beautifully sinking the ship and no less beautifully shooting himself, had gone for a breakthrough, he would have had a good (not absolute, but nevertheless) chance of breaking through to the ocean, and then look for his whistles.
    But what happened, happened, and history will not change.
    1. -2
      26 September 2024 07: 38
      A grave in this ocean was assured for him.
      A ship that was not sufficiently protected against County-class cruisers could not fight against two or even three of them. Its performance would not allow it to break contact, and pursuing it would not allow it to bunker.
      1. +11
        26 September 2024 09: 04
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        A grave in this ocean was assured for him.

        If Langsdorf hadn't lost his cool, he could have broken through Harwood, no problem there. He knocked out the only "undercounty" almost immediately, and could have drowned him, but instead he began to divide, transfer fire, etc.
        1. +2
          26 September 2024 09: 14
          Good day, Andrey!
          There are many legends about diesel freaks, born from the very appearance of such extraordinary ships.
          Absolutely right, Langsdorff could well have finished off Exeter, but he (reasonably!) feared torpedo attacks from Ajax and Achilles.
          Actually, having entered the battle, Admiral Graf Spee was doomed. Even if he had broken through to the ocean, he would have been surrounded by cruisers, heavily damaged and finished off by torpedoes. So all that was left for him on 13.12.1939 was to sell his life as dearly as possible.
          1. 0
            26 September 2024 10: 26
            It wouldn't have been more expensive. Spee's shells were running low. The British would have brought up an aircraft carrier and sunk it from the air - most of Spee's anti-aircraft guns had been disabled during the battle.
          2. +3
            26 September 2024 11: 23
            That's the point, maybe it's better to drown one enemy with a guarantee than to try to damage three?
        2. +1
          26 September 2024 10: 15
          If Langsdorf hadn't lost his cool, he could have broken through Harwood, no problem there.

          There were other problems. The fuel system was damaged and there was only enough prepared fuel for 16 hours of sailing, repairs in three days were impossible. Ammunition was running low, the power plant had long been in need of major repairs. The British would not have entered into battle with it, they would have simply watched it from a distance until reinforcements arrived and not allowed it to bunker. What ocean did it have? It had nothing to do there.
          1. +5
            26 September 2024 11: 23
            Problems arose as a result of the battle, which, frankly speaking, Langsdorff conducted absolutely ineptly. If he, having finished off Exeter, or even without finishing it off, had concentrated on one of the British cruisers, it would have lost its combat capability in the same time frame as Exeter. The fact that Langsdorff started complex maneuvering, periodically changed targets, and even demanded a division of fire when one turret fired at one cruiser, the other at another, thereby reducing the effectiveness of his fire to a near-zero value and giving the British time to inflict damage on him - he himself is an evil Pinocchio
            1. +1
              26 September 2024 11: 39
              It was Exeter that caused critical damage to the German's fuel system. As for the British light cruisers, after a short battle (in which they were able to disable the fire control system), they simply pursued the German, trying to stay outside its fire radius, and when the Germans tried to open fire, they laid a smoke screen and moved on.
              1. +1
                26 September 2024 11: 49
                Please confirm your data on Exeter. As far as I know, both of his shells did not cause any significant damage.
                1. +1
                  26 September 2024 12: 04
                  They didn't cause any harm. But at the same time
                  However, Exeter dealt the decisive blow; one of her 8-inch shells had penetrated two decks before exploding in Graf Spee's funnel area, destroyed her raw fuel processing system and left her with just 16 hours fuel, insufficient to allow her to return home.
                  However, Exeter had struck the decisive blow; one of her 8-inch shells penetrated two decks before exploding in the vicinity of Graf Spee's funnel, destroying her raw fuel handling system and leaving her with only 16 hours of fuel, not enough to allow her to return home.

                  Sorry, the machine translation is clumsy.
                  1. +1
                    26 September 2024 12: 26
                    Excuse me, where is this from?:)))) Not a single shell penetrated Spee's 2 decks
                    1. +1
                      26 September 2024 12: 43
                      From English Wikipedia, from an article about the fight.
                      In German it is written similarly.

                      Etwa zur gleichen Zeit begann Langsdorff die Schäden an seinem Schiff zu begutachten. Die Schmierölreinigungsanlage, die für die Rückkehr nach Deutschland unerlässlich war, war beschädigt, der Frischwassererzeuger ebenfalls. Im Bug war ein vier Quadratmeter großes Loch entstanden. Die Funkpeilanlage war ebenso zerstört wie eines der Flugzeuge. Alle sechs 28-cm-Kanonen waren noch einsatzfähig, aber die Munition ging zur Neige. Auch die Sekundärbewaffnung wurde in Mitleidenschaft gezogen und benötigte Nachschub an Granaten.
                      Around the same time, Langsdorff began assessing the damage to his ship. The lubricating oil purification system, which was essential for the return to Germany, was damaged, as was the fresh water generator. A four-square-meter hole appeared in the bow. The radio direction-finding system was destroyed, as was one of the aircraft. All six 28-cm guns were still in action, but their ammunition was running low. The medium armament had also been damaged, requiring grenade replenishment.

                      Sorry, the translation is even more clumsy :((
                      There is also an assessment of Spee's capabilities in that situation in the German version.
                      Langsdorff now had several possible alternatives. He could go to Buenos Aires, which was known to be friendly to Germany. However, getting there would require wading through shallow waters, which would risk clogging the water coolers. The next destination was Mar del Plata. It had a large port but no shipyard. An even more distant possibility was Puerto Militar in Bahía Blanca. Travelling north or south was out of the question due to the poor condition of the ship. Seeing no other option, Langsdorff decided to head for the nearest neutral port, which in his case was Montevideo....
                      He intended to reach the edge of neutral waters and try to break through to Buenos Aires. In case he failed to do so, he asked for instructions on what to do with the ship. [ 16 ] He finally received permission to escape to Buenos Aires. In case this was not possible, he was specifically ordered to sink the ship. On 16 December, Langsdorff was informed that a British cargo ship had left Montevideo and, according to the Hague Convention, was not allowed to leave port for 24 hours. Langsdorff had thus lost any element of surprise. As a result, after consulting with his officers, Langsdorff decided to sink the Admiral Graf Spee . [ 17 ]

                      The British took advantage of one of the provisions of the convention - a warship could not leave a neutral port earlier than 24 hours after the departure of the enemy country's merchant ships - and organized the departure of their own and French ships while Spee was sorting out the situation and requesting Berlin, delaying the departure until reinforcements arrived.
                      1. 0
                        26 September 2024 13: 19
                        I do not dispute that the oil purification system was damaged. I highly doubt that this damage was the result of a 203mm shell from Exeter. And I also have serious doubts that without this purification the ship could not have returned to Germany.
                      2. +2
                        26 September 2024 13: 30
                        The damage Spee received did not prevent it from continuing the battle, but the ship was not capable of long passages without repairs - in this the German and English Wikipedia agree. Similarly, the Russian one, by the way, writes about Exeter hitting Spee
                        ...From the surviving guns, the British managed to hit Graf Spee on the starboard side.
                        Langsdorff sent a radiogram that the ship was damaged, there were 36 killed, 6 seriously and 53 lightly wounded and there was no confidence that in such a situation he would be able to break through back, so he, despite the danger of being blocked, went to the mouth of the La Plata ... the light cruisers "Ajax" and "Achilles" fired so accurately and effectively that two shells disabled the artillery fire control system on the "Admiral Graf Spee" ... it would take at least two weeks to repair the ship. Although the damage to the "Admiral Graf Spee" was not very great, it needed repairs that could not be done in three days ...

                        It is also clear from the correspondence with Berlin that there was no question of going to Germany or hiding in the open ocean - at most to Argentina. It is obvious that Spee's exit into the open ocean in these conditions would have given him nothing.
                        In addition, he was inferior in speed to the light cruisers of the British, so he could not break away from them, and after Exeter left, they avoided combat. They would simply follow the German.
                      3. +2
                        26 September 2024 13: 37
                        Wikipedia agrees, but a bunch of other sources contradict them, the same Kofman, for example, is in the lists of literature of both Grener and Koop. And I have to repeat myself again - the damage from the 203-mm shell was analyzed, it is somewhat strange, but the point is that the shell, either having pierced the belt or having broken off its edge, pierced the bulkhead, fell and ricocheted off the armored deck and banged in a chemical reagent for extinguishing fires. That is, the Wikipedia you cite is so accurate that it confuses two vertical barriers with two horizontal ones.
                      4. +2
                        26 September 2024 14: 39
                        The main thing is not how many and what bulkheads it penetrated, but that important ship systems were damaged, such as the power supply system (or lubrication in the German version, I am not strong enough in German to judge which is more correct, in English it is two decks, two decks) and the desalination plant. Everyone agrees that repairs were required, although this did not directly affect the course of the battle. In addition, the machine as a whole had long needed major repairs, even before the battle.
                        In the English Wikipedia there is a link at this point to the English translation of the German book.

                        ... It was not seaworthy and could only enter the neutral port of Montevideo. [ 24 ]

                        Maier, Klaus; Rohde, Horst; Stegemann, Bernd; Umbreit, Hans (1991). Germany and the Second World War: Germany's initial conquests in Europe. Oxford: Clarendon. ISBN 978-0-19-822885-1.
                        Mayer, Klaus; Rohde, Horst; Stegemann, Bernd; Umbreit, Hans (1991). Germany and the Second World War: Germany's First Conquests in Europe. Oxford: Clarendon. ISBN 978-0-19-822885-1.
                        I don't have access to the book to check.
                        This is the second of a ten-volume comprehensive set, Germany and the Second World War. The volumes published so far have received international acclaim as important contributions to historical research. Under the auspices of the Militargeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Military History Research Institute), a group of renowned historians have combined a comprehensive synthesis of existing material with the latest research...

                        The Germans refer to
                        two books
                        Miller: Langsdorff and the Battle of the River Plate. Pen & Sword, Barnsley 2013, pp. 128–131.
                        Woodman: The Battle of the River Plate. S. 120.
                      5. 0
                        26 September 2024 15: 05
                        The main thing here is the reliability of the information. If the quote is incorrect in one part, it may be incorrect in another. The quote you provided claims that two decks were penetrated, but this did not happen. The quote claims that an 8-inch shell exploded near the funnel, but according to the available diagrams, it hit Spee at a large distance from it under the forward superstructure. Several shells hit the funnel area, but all of them were 6-inch shells.
                        Accordingly, I am gnawed by vague doubts that Exeter is to blame for Spee's problems:)
                      6. +1
                        26 September 2024 17: 30
                        "two decks", perhaps a consequence of translation into English from German. Or maybe it really was 6 inches. But the fact that during the battle Spee received such damage, which, together with the worn-out state of the power plant, excluded the possibility of going into the ocean, hiding from the British. Perhaps he could have gone to Argentina, but everything was not easy there either.
                      7. 0
                        26 September 2024 17: 34
                        Quote from solar
                        "two decks", possibly a result of translation into English from German. Or maybe it really was 6 inches.

                        Most likely. But it is not a fact that the damage to the oil cleaner was so fatal.
                        Quote from solar
                        that during the battle Spee received such damage that, together with the worn-out state of the power plant, it was impossible to go into the ocean

                        The only question is that if Langsdorf had acted decisively throughout the battle, then Spee simply might not have received these injuries.
                      8. +1
                        26 September 2024 17: 39
                        The English could not have fought this battle at all, but simply watched Spee until the approach of the same Cumberland, for example, keeping Spee in constant tension, which is what they did after Exeter left the battle. They had the advantage in speed.
                        Most likely. But it is not a fact that the damage to the oil cleaner was so fatal.

                        I think this requires a more in-depth study sometime.
                      9. +1
                        26 September 2024 17: 46
                        Quote from solar
                        The British might not have fought this battle at all.

                        They could, but they did, and with the utmost determination. And rightly so - the escort might not have worked out, at night Spee could well have slipped away
                        Quote from solar
                        They had the advantage of speed.

                        The British had superiority in speed over Bismarck, but lost it
                        Quote from solar
                        I think this requires a more in-depth study sometime.

                        I don't argue, but the fact is that if Langsdorf had fought wisely, this injury might not have happened at all
                      10. +2
                        26 September 2024 18: 02
                        I looked at what the Spanish version of Wikipedia thought about it.
                        During the battle, the German privateer received approximately seventy structural hits, killing 36 of her crew and wounding over sixty Germans, including Langsdorff himself, from shrapnel while operating the ship from the bridge. Most of the shell hits caused only minor structural and superficial damage, but the diesel fuel purification plant, essential for the proper functioning of the engines, was destroyed. The desalination plant was also rendered inoperative, making the long voyage back to Germany very difficult. The strike on the galleys in the bow also made the ship difficult to navigate in the rough seas of the Atlantic Ocean. To add to this, the battle significantly depleted the ship's 60 mm ammunition supply. 280
                        Langsdorff decided to call at Montevideo to refuel, which was in a critical condition. They thought about going to Buenos Aires; but the shallow waters and the mainly suspended silt of the La Plata River meant that the condensers of the propulsion system would break down; For this reason Montevideo was chosen, although it was technically neutral, but pro-British. 21

                        It should also not be forgotten that Spee could only do what the British allowed him to do - they controlled the situation due to their higher speed. The light cruisers distracted the Germans while Exeter withdrew from the battle, and then kept their distance, covering themselves with smoke screens when necessary and forcing Spee to waste ammunition.
                      11. 0
                        26 September 2024 18: 04
                        Quote from solar
                        but the diesel fuel purification plant, necessary for the engines to function properly, was destroyed

                        so, they would have gone to the ones that were not functioning properly:))) Diesel is not very capricious by its nature, yes, the resource would have been wasted, maybe the engines would have required replacement, but it would have been possible to go
                        Quote from solar
                        It should also not be forgotten that Spee could only do what the British allowed him to do.

                        So it was the English who allowed him to cripple Exeter?:)))))))
                      12. +1
                        26 September 2024 18: 11
                        the resource would be wasted, maybe the engines would need to be replaced

                        It was already spent, the engines required major repairs long before the battle and could fail at any moment.
                        but it was possible to leave

                        From correspondence with Berlin it is clear that the Germans did not think so.
                      13. +1
                        26 September 2024 18: 13
                        Quote from solar
                        From correspondence with Berlin it is clear that the Germans did not think so.

                        I repeat once again:)))) The Germans did not think so AFTER the battle, which they had conducted poorly. And if they had conducted it correctly, Spee might not have received the injuries that he actually received. Therefore, it is impossible to equate Spee's condition after the actual battle and his condition if Langsdorf had fought aggressively. These are two different conditions.
                      14. +1
                        26 September 2024 18: 40
                        So it was the English who allowed him to cripple Exeter?:)))))))

                        Yes. It was the British choice to fight Spee, although they understood that Spee was more powerful and what risks this fight could entail.
                        Exeter, after receiving damage, left the battle, then returned to the battle, and having received damage, left the battle again and went for repairs. That is, he left the battle twice, when he considered it necessary. The light cruisers, after helping Exeter, also left the battle and continued to pursue him at the limit of his guns, hiding behind a smoke screen if necessary and forcing the German to use up his ammunition senselessly, which was already small, and tying up his actions. Spee could have drowned the British only by accident, by a random, especially lucky hit. Of course, the British were in control of the situation.
                      15. 0
                        26 September 2024 19: 35
                        Quote from solar
                        Of course, the British were in control of the situation.

                        :)))))
                        Quote from solar
                        Exeter withdrew from the battle after sustaining damage

                        But he didn't go anywhere. The ships were approaching and Langsdorff maimed Exeter in 10 minutes like God maimed a turtle. The cruiser was facing a clear end. But at that moment Langsdorff was concussed, and he suddenly lost his fighting spirit, turned and ran from the enemy, even covering himself with a smoke screen. Only because of this Exeter managed to leave the battle for a while.
                      16. 0
                        27 September 2024 07: 36
                        You can’t look at the world only through Kaufman’s eyes.
                        But even he wrote that Exeter repeatedly withdrew from the battle, only Kofman wrote about it in passing.
                        According to German information, the damaged Exeter disappeared completely behind a smoke screen, from which it did not emerge until approximately 6.40.

                        then came back again
                        Meanwhile, the damaged Exeter turned sharply to the right at 6.40, set an easterly course and at 6.42 fired 3 torpedoes from the port side tube.

                        Then he disappeared again for Spee and returned to battle again
                        Shortly after 7.10, the Exeter again appeared from the south, to which the main caliber fire had to be transferred.

                        and then the English, by their decision, again withdrew from the battle
                        It was only at about 7.30, when water, penetrating through shrapnel holes in the side and broken fire hoses, short-circuited the power supply to the aft turret drive, Captain Bell ordered to leave the battlefield.

                        And stories about how Langsdorf lost some kind of spirit somewhere are for melodramas.
                        The English had noticeably greater speed and controlled the situation, and Langsdorf, no matter how hard he wanted, could not force his fight on them.
                      17. +1
                        27 September 2024 08: 16
                        Quote from solar
                        from which he did not emerge until about 6.40.

                        You just forgot to point out that he hid behind the curtain at 6.34, that is, there was no way out of the battle, there was only an attempt. And it was at the very moment when Exeter disappeared into the curtain that Spee turned around.
                        Quote from solar
                        Meanwhile, the damaged Exeter turned sharply to the right at 6.40, set an easterly course and at 6.42 fired 3 torpedoes from the port side tube.

                        Exactly, and this despite the fact that he had taken several hits from 6.40 onwards. If Spee had continued to close, Exeter would not have been able to escape. He only succeeded because Spee allowed it.
                        Quote from solar
                        And stories about how Langsdorf lost some kind of spirit somewhere are for melodramas.

                        The fact is that before his concussion Langsdorf was cheerfully moving towards the enemy, and after that he turned away from the British, tried to avoid artillery fire by maneuvering (from the British 6-inch guns, yes), set up smoke screens, distributed the fire, that is, he fought extremely cautiously. And ineffectively.
                      18. 0
                        27 September 2024 10: 04
                        It is so convenient to reduce the entire discussion to the thesis voiced by Bronevoy’s hero: “The head is a dark subject, not subject to research.”
                        And the fact that the English had a significant advantage in speed, we discard as an insignificant factor, it does not fit into our picture of the world.
                        hi
                      19. +1
                        27 September 2024 11: 44
                        Quote from solar
                        And the fact that the English had a significant advantage in speed, we discard as an insignificant factor.

                        And who told you that I am throwing it away? My interpretation of the battle is based on the maneuvering schemes and the timing of the combat operations that I have. And general knowledge of the tactics of those years.
                        I see a dramatic change in the style of fighting before and after Langsdorff's concussion. Why should I ignore this? I see that before his concussion Langsdorff was winning a convincing victory over the English, and then he lost it, not because of anything the English did, but because of Spee himself.
                        This analysis of mine may be correct, it may be wrong, but it cannot be refuted by general considerations such as “the British had higher speed, which means they determined the course of the battle.”
                        High speed in itself is only a prerequisite for controlling the course of a battle, but not a guarantee of this control. And I do not see that the English controlled the battle while Langsdorff acted decisively. This conclusion of mine is based, I repeat, not on my picture of the world, but on an analysis of the actions of the parties.
                      20. 0
                        27 September 2024 12: 17
                        High speed in itself is only a prerequisite for controlling the course of a battle, but not a guarantee of this control.

                        The battle and the course of the battle are not the same thing. The English controlled the battle and could have left it, which they did. But they could not control the course of the battle themselves, there are too many factors involved.
                      21. +1
                        27 September 2024 12: 21
                        If you understand control of a fight as the ability to get out of it, then you only need to look at the fight diagram to see that even with Langsdorf's moderately aggressive actions, Exeter could not get away. He managed to do this only because Spee did not try to shorten, or even maintain, the distance.
                      22. +1
                        27 September 2024 18: 57
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        so, they would have gone to the ones that were not functioning properly:))) Diesel is not very capricious by its nature, yes, the resource would have been wasted, maybe the engines would have required replacement, but it would have been possible to go

                        The problem is that diesel will not work on a mixture of diesel fuel and sea water: Schmierölreinigungsanlage is an oil-water separator designed to separate diesel fuel from sea water, which the Germans took into tanks as the fuel was consumed. According to a number of sources, it was this that was damaged, and the fuel remained available directly in the diesel fuel tanks.
                      23. +1
                        28 September 2024 08: 56
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Schmierölreinigungsanlage is an oil-water separator designed to separate diesel fuel from seawater, which the Germans took into the tanks as the fuel was consumed. According to a number of sources, it was this that was damaged

                        It is somewhat strange that this fact is ignored in the literature. In essence, such damage made the ship obviously incapable of continuing the voyage and fighting if it could not be repaired.
                      24. +1
                        28 September 2024 12: 37
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is somewhat strange that this fact is ignored in literature.

                        There are mysteries all around.
                        Whitley attributes this information (including the remaining fuel for 16 hours) to the German naval officer in Argentina, Kai. However, I have not found anything similar in the available correspondence.
                        Langsdorff does not mention this in his report, although, for example, he directly wrote that the damage to the hull makes it problematic to break through the winter North Atlantic.
                      25. +1
                        28 September 2024 13: 36
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Langsdorff does not mention this in his report, although, for example, he directly wrote that the damage to the hull makes it problematic to break through the winter North Atlantic.

                        This is strange. In general, if a ship has fuel for 16 hours and there is nowhere to get more, then this is the end. It had no other option but to sink. And I absolutely do not see why it is necessary to write about a "problematic" breakthrough if it was obviously impossible.
                        This is where doubts about this damage arise.
                      26. +1
                        28 September 2024 13: 58
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In general, if a ship has fuel for 16 hours and there is nowhere to get more, then this is the end. It has no other option but to sink.

                        Your logic is too radical. :)
                        The problem can be solved more simply:
                        - we have available fuel for 16 hours;
                        - the separator can be repaired, but it is not a fact that we will finish it in 16 hours;
                        - Montevideo is within a 16-hour radius, where repairs can be made...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is where doubts about this damage arise.

                        We need to dig into the documents... wassat
                      27. +1
                        28 September 2024 15: 02
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        - Montevideo is within a 16-hour radius, where repairs can be made...

                        This was just before going to Montevideo. And Langsdorf came there, and then thought about whether to leave. However, he did not say anything that could be interpreted as "I have fuel for a few hours, I can't go anywhere."
                        Hence the conclusion - either this damage was not important, or it was easily repaired.
                      28. +1
                        28 September 2024 16: 13
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Hence the conclusion - either this damage was not important, or it was easily repaired.

                        Let's say it this way: it could be eliminated in two days: because "Spee" arrived in Montevideo around midnight on December 13/14, and Langsdorff sent a report on the battle to Berlin only at 18:55 on the 15th.
                      29. 0
                        28 September 2024 17: 21
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Let's say it this way: fixable in two days

                        Maybe. Or maybe there were two such installations? It seems doubtful that only one unit would be doing such an important job.
                      30. 0
                        28 September 2024 17: 24
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is somehow doubtful that only one unit would be engaged in such an important task.

                        The question is certainly interesting: you need to deal with the drawings and documents.
                      31. +1
                        27 September 2024 18: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The quote states that the 8-inch shell exploded near the funnel, but according to the available diagrams it hit Spee at a great distance from it under the forward superstructure.

                        In German documents it appears as a projectile of an unknown caliber.
                        So it is very difficult to determine the authorship.
                      32. +1
                        28 September 2024 08: 38
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        In German documents it appears as a projectile of an unknown caliber.

                        I see. Thanks!
                      33. 0
                        26 September 2024 21: 18
                        The fact that the fuel preparation system was destroyed is confirmed in various sources. But Kofman doesn't say a word about it. I don't think his opinion should be taken as absolute.
                      34. +1
                        27 September 2024 18: 59
                        Quote from solar
                        The fact that the fuel preparation system was destroyed is confirmed in various sources. But Kofman doesn't say a word about it. I don't think his opinion should be taken as absolute.

                        Because Wheatley, who V.K. took as a basis, doesn’t have this.
                      35. 0
                        26 September 2024 15: 56
                        "Spee" has been in autonomous mode for six months, the cylinder-piston group of diesel engines is in a dead condition. Plus the hull is fouled in warm waters. It has not gone more than 18 knots. How to break away from the cruisers and break through to Germany? The only chance is Argentina, which sympathized with the Germans.
                      36. +1
                        26 September 2024 17: 42
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        He had never gone faster than 18 knots. How to break away from the cruisers and break through to Germany?

                        Kofman mentions that by the end of the battle Spee had slowed down to 22 knots. But 18 knots is not a slow speed. Of course, it would be impossible to escape the cruisers, but Spee had to be found first.
                        And this would not have been easy if Langsdorf had fought correctly - he was quite capable of bringing all three English cruisers to a state in which pursuit of the raider would have been impossible.
                      37. 0
                        26 September 2024 18: 10
                        His maximum was 26 knots, and that was on a measured mile, after half a year in autonomous mode, even though the diesels worked in turns + fouling of the underwater part and other jokes.
                      38. 0
                        26 September 2024 18: 11
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        after half a year in autonomous mode

                        Kofman has a lot of mistakes, but I don’t think the number 22 is just a guess.
                      39. 0
                        26 September 2024 18: 49
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        He has never sailed more than 18 knots.

                        In battle it was quite possible to go 24 knots.
                      40. 0
                        26 September 2024 18: 57
                        Where did you get the information? You can look at the battle diagram, although the Germans and the British plotted their courses slightly differently in time. 24 knots doesn't work out there, even taking into account the errors.
                      41. +1
                        26 September 2024 19: 00
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Where does the information come from?

                        From Jurens's article Under the guns: Battle damage to Graf Spee 13 December 1939.
                      42. 0
                        27 September 2024 07: 40
                        1. This is still much less than the English, so he could not break away from the English.
                        2. How long he could maintain such a speed with his cars completely destroyed is a big question.
                      43. +1
                        27 September 2024 19: 03
                        Quote from solar
                        2. How long he could maintain such a speed with his cars completely destroyed is a big question.

                        According to the report of the German naval attaché, the technical condition of the machines was good.
                2. 0
                  26 September 2024 12: 25
                  In addition, Spee had used up most of his main caliber shells, and three English cruisers, albeit weaker ones, were waiting for him at the exit, including Cumberland with full ammunition.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2024 12: 27
                    I have to repeat once again - I am saying that Spee could have left immediately, having defeated Harwood's forces and not returned to Montevideo. No Cumberlands:)
                    1. +1
                      26 September 2024 12: 54
                      The ship's condition did not allow it to simply go into the ocean.
                    2. +1
                      26 September 2024 16: 39
                      Yeah, he had two fully combat-ready Linders on his tail and a Cumberland approaching. And then, people would have come running from all over the Atlantic. So, Langsdorf at least saved people. If the Spee had been sunk in the middle of the Atlantic, in battle, there would have been a lot of corpses, like in 1914.
                      1. 0
                        26 September 2024 17: 43
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Yeah, he had two fully combat-ready Linders on his tail.

                        Where would they come from?:)))) Harwood had 3 cruisers, and Langsdorf could have easily knocked out all three
                      2. +2
                        26 September 2024 19: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Where would they come from?:)))) Harwood had 3 cruisers, and Langsdorf could have easily knocked out all three

                        Andrey, pardon me, you are now becoming like a "couch strategist"... ;)
                      3. 0
                        26 September 2024 19: 24
                        As you wish:)))) But the fact is that having knocked out the Exeter, Langsdorf had two KRLs acting quite brazenly and not avoiding combat. Which gave him the opportunity to cripple all two. Maybe, of course, it wouldn't have worked out, due to the inevitable accidents at sea, but he didn't try.
                      4. +1
                        26 September 2024 19: 35
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        As you please:))))

                        Uh-huh... ;)

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Perhaps, of course, it wouldn’t have worked out, due to the inevitable accidents at sea, but he didn’t even try.

                        I tried as best I could... it's easy for us now.
                        And he thought that he was going to escort a convoy of a light cruiser and a couple of destroyers.
                      5. 0
                        26 September 2024 19: 37
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        And he thought that he was going to escort a convoy of a light cruiser and a couple of destroyers.

                        This can hardly serve as an excuse for the flight from the two KRLs, which he did after Exeter was finally out of action.
                      6. +1
                        26 September 2024 19: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This can hardly serve as an excuse for running away from two KRLs.

                        OK... Let's assume that "Spee" broke away from the KRL (how, it doesn't really matter)... The B-Dienst service worked on it. Let's assume it intercepted everything (a very big conventionality).
                        Where should "Spee" go?
                      7. 0
                        26 September 2024 20: 48
                        (shrugging) Even if it's home across the Atlantic. It's only on the map that the arrows look all-encompassing, but in reality... The ocean is big.
                      8. 0
                        26 September 2024 20: 55
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        (shrugging)

                        As you wish...
                      9. +1
                        27 September 2024 06: 36
                        Judge for yourself - for the 2800 km distance between South America and Africa there is Clyde and a detachment from Dakar.
                  2. +1
                    26 September 2024 18: 55
                    Quote from solar
                    In addition, Spee had used up most of his main caliber shells.

                    Consumption on main battery - 324 shells
                    Remaining - 378.
                    Consumption according to the insurance company - not specified
                    Remaining - 423 shells
                    Expense under the management company - not specified
                    Remaining - 2470 shells.
                    1. 0
                      27 September 2024 07: 49
                      There is other information on the remaining ammunition of the main caliber. Two thirds were spent.
                      1. 0
                        27 September 2024 19: 09
                        Quote from solar
                        There is other information on the remaining ammunition of the main caliber. Two thirds were spent.

                        Information from a source more authoritative than the Gefechtsbericht of "Count Spee"?
          2. +3
            26 September 2024 11: 28
            Quote from solar
            The British would not have engaged him in battle, they would have simply watched him from a distance until reinforcements arrived and would not have allowed him to bunker down.

            Moreover, it was not necessary to follow for long: in reality, the CRT Cumberland joined Harwood’s group the very next day after the battle.
            1. -1
              26 September 2024 11: 57
              In reality, the Cumberland cruiser joined Harwood's group the very next day after the battle.

              Moreover, although the Cumberland was, of course, inferior to Spee (and at the same time slightly superior to Exeter), it had a full supply of ammunition, while Spee had main caliber shells left for about 20 minutes of combat.
              1. 0
                26 September 2024 19: 15
                Quote from solar
                The main caliber shells remained for about 20 minutes of battle.

                This is if they will be like in the game "beating on CD"...
                But this doesn't happen in life.
    2. 0
      26 September 2024 07: 52
      Quote: Nagan
      The Kaiser's much smaller Hochseeflotte (High Seas Fleet) hampered the British Grand Fleet by simply sitting in ports protected by its shore batteries. The Grand Fleet could have been put to better use, such as supporting landings.

      Are you kidding? The Grand Fleet was blockading Germany and doing a pretty good job. The Germans could sit in their bases until they were blue in the face, not influencing the outcome of the war. During the Dardanelles operation, one German submarine scared the entire fleet
      1. +3
        26 September 2024 08: 00
        The blockade was maintained by cruisers, while the battleships, the pride and joy of the Royal Navy, were mostly stationed in Scapa Flow, awaiting orders to leave in case the Hochseeflotte appeared.
        1. +2
          26 September 2024 10: 35
          Quote: Nagan
          The blockade was maintained by cruisers, while the battleships, the pride and joy of the Royal Navy, were mostly stationed in Scapa Flow, awaiting orders to leave in case the Hochseeflotte appeared.

          You can say it this way or that way. Would there have been a blockade without the battle fleet?
      2. 0
        26 September 2024 16: 40
        "Hochseeflotte" only left its bases once, in 1916, got a full beating and never did such nonsense again)))
        1. 0
          27 September 2024 18: 17
          Quote: TermNachTER
          "Hochseeflotte" only left its bases once, in 1916, got a full beating and never did such nonsense again)))

          Well, it seems like Grand Fleet got hit with much more.
          1. 0
            27 September 2024 19: 23
            1. What was the strategic goal of this battle? To break the British blockade. Was the blockade broken? No. 2. Losses? Calculate how many "capital thorns" were in the ranks of the British and Germans, a month later.
            1. 0
              27 September 2024 19: 46
              Quote: TermNachTER
              What was the strategic goal of this battle? To break the British blockade.
              The goal was to lure and destroy part of the Royal Navy. Something not quite like that, but close enough, it worked.
              Breaking the blockade? That would have been fine in 1915, but pointless in 1916. America would not have sold grain to Germany in 1916, even if the delivery had not been complicated by military action.
              Entering the operational space of the Atlantic? Submarines have already done this, and quite successfully. But for surface ships to do this, they first had to repeat the top line 3-4 times.
              And so, the parties returned to the same situation as before Jutland. The Fleet in being in German bases was hampered by the British Grand Fleet.
              If the geniuses at the German headquarters had not thought of sending the fleet on a suicidal attack on the British Isles in 1918, there would not have been a revolution that overthrew Kaiser Wilhelm, which was started by r-r-revolutionary-minded sailors. And perhaps, if Wilhelm had remained in power, there would not have been Hitler.
              1. 0
                27 September 2024 21: 31
                It was part of the plan and it can be said that it was a success. Six "capital ships", if you count the armored cruisers, were sunk. How did this affect the situation in the North Sea? Oh, no, the blockade remained as it was. British convoys continued to go to Norway. Only breaking the blockade was a result that justified the resources expended. They did not sell food to the USA - they can buy it from Argentina, fortunately there are a lot of Germans there and they had "weight". Breaking the British blockade and the beginning of the blockade of Britain. There is not much needed there, block 5 or 6 main ports and chaos will begin.
              2. 0
                28 September 2024 14: 28
                Quote: Nagan
                The Fleet in being in German bases was hampered by the British Grand Fleet.

                The Grand Fleet had no other tasks than to blockade Germany and its ships, so the Germans could not tie anyone down
    3. +1
      26 September 2024 08: 25
      Quote: Nagan
      But if the newest battleships with longer-range, faster-firing, and, most importantly, destructive 14-15-inch guns had been there, the outcome of the landing could have been different.

      At that time, neither the admirals nor the generals had any experience of mass landings, and after the failure at Dardanelles, all General Staffs considered mass landings to be a deliberately unsuccessful operation. And this was the case until the landing in Normandy...

      If Captain Hans Langsdorff, instead of beautifully sinking the ship and no less beautifully shooting himself, had gone for a breakthrough, he would have had a good (not absolute, but nevertheless) chance

      It is unlikely that such a breakthrough would have succeeded - the cruiser was seriously damaged. And before the damage, it fought with dignity with a small British squadron...

      Quote: Nagan
      the pride and joy of the Royal Navy, were mostly stationed in Scapa Flow, awaiting orders to leave in case the Hochseeflotte appeared

      In this war, battleships were already dinosaurs and they had no choice but to stay at their bases. I think they were dinosaurs in the First World War too...
      1. +2
        26 September 2024 11: 49
        Quote: Luminman
        And before the damage, he fought with dignity against a small British squadron...

        Yep... a three-turreted stub of a Washington CRT and a couple of Arethusas. Together they made up Force G, the weakest of the groups operating in the area.
        So Langsdorf was lucky. He could have run into:
        Force H - Sussex and Shropshire MCTs.
        Force I - aircraft carrier Eagle, cruiser Cornwall and cruiser Gloucester.
        Force K - AB "Ark Royal" and LKR "Rinaun".
        Force X - AV "Hermes", KRT "Fosh" and "Duple", KRL "Neptune" and 3 EM series H.
        1. 0
          26 September 2024 15: 58
          Quote: Alexey RA
          three-towered stub of a Washington RCT

          Stubs or not, but there were guns on board, a well-trained crew and communications with other squadrons...
    4. +1
      26 September 2024 09: 29
      If Captain Hans Langsdorff, instead of beautifully sinking the ship and no less beautifully shooting himself, had gone for a breakthrough, he would have had a good (not absolute, but nevertheless) chance of breaking through to the ocean, and then look for his whistles.

      He had no business being in the ocean.
      During the battle, Admiral Graf Spee was hit around 70 times; 36 men were killed and 60 were wounded,[35] including Langsdorff, who was hit twice by shrapnel while standing on the open bridge.[34]

      Although the damage was relatively superficial, it included the failure of vital systems such as the fuel preparation system and the desalination plant.
      ... Exeter had delivered the decisive blow; one of her 8-inch shells penetrated two decks before exploding in the vicinity of Graf Spee's funnel, destroying her raw fuel handling system and leaving her with only 16 hours of fuel, not enough to allow her to return home.
      At this point, almost an hour into the battle, Graf Spee was doomed, as she could not make such complex repairs to her fuel system under fire. Two-thirds of her anti-aircraft guns were out of action, as was one of her secondary turrets. There were no friendly naval bases or available reinforcements within range. She was unseaworthy and could only make the neutral port of Montevideo.... [ 24 ]

      The damage to the bow reduced seaworthiness. Repairs would take two weeks, and they only had three days. The Germans were running out of ammunition, they simply had nothing to fight a serious battle with. In addition, back in October, when Spee tried to deceive the British with a trip to the Indian Ocean, the ship already needed a major overhaul of the power plant.
      By this time, Admiral Graf Spee had travelled almost 30 nautical miles (000 km; 56 mi) and was in need of major engine overhaul.

      It could fail at any moment.
      If they had gone to sea, the British could have kept an eye on him, calling for reinforcements and preventing him from getting supplies from the supply ships. And he only had enough fuel for 16 hours of sailing.
      The Germans really didn't have a chance, and not just because the British deceived them.
    5. 0
      26 September 2024 11: 36
      Quote: Nagan
      But if the newest battleships with longer-range, faster-firing, and, most importantly, destructive 14-15-inch guns had been there, the outcome of the landing could have been different.

      And how did the "Queen" who participated in Operation help the landing force?
      If you ignore minesweeping and just lead ships towards mines, even the entire Grand Fleet won’t help.
      Quote: Nagan
      If Captain Hans Langsdorff, instead of beautifully sinking the ship and no less beautifully shooting himself, had gone for a breakthrough, he would have had a good (not absolute, but nevertheless) chance of breaking through to the ocean, and then look for his whistles.

      Langsdorf needed repairs - as a result of the battle, the fuel filters and the water maker were damaged. And if he wanted to leave, he had less than a day to repair it. Because the next day the CRT Cumberland arrived - a full-fledged four-turret Washingtonian, and even modernized.
      After which Langsdorf could only say Ah, here we go again. But a new battle would have to be fought with 414 fewer main battery shells.
      1. 0
        26 September 2024 16: 04
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Langsdorf needed repairs - the fuel filters and water maker were damaged as a result of the battle.

        German engineers (either from Argentina or from Germany itself) arrived in Uruguay to quickly assess the damage to the cruiser and gave their verdict - repairs, by the most conservative estimates, would require at least two weeks. This is about the seriousness of the damage...
    6. 0
      26 September 2024 11: 50
      Yes, the British had the most modern ships in the straits, even battlecruisers and a battleship, and what did that change? How did the 15" battleships help? The result was deserved, the Turks washed away the British, the French and the ANZACs.
    7. 0
      26 September 2024 12: 29
      Theoretically, he could have broken through, but the British cruisers would have been on his tail. And the Graf's speed at that time was already worthless. After six months of continuous sailing, the wear of the cylinder-piston engines was terrible. How much longer they would have lasted, only Zarathustra knows))) and breaking through to Germany with such machines is a very original way of suicide. Langsdorf chose a simpler one, but saved the lives of almost a thousand people
      1. +1
        26 September 2024 21: 35
        Quote: TermNachTER
        And the speed of the Count, at that moment, was already nothing. After six months of continuous sailing, the wear of the cylinder-piston was terrible. How much longer they would have lasted, only Zarathustra knows))) and a breakthrough to Germany with such machines is a very original way of suicide.

        The report stated that the condition of the engine installation made it possible to develop full speed.
        The only problems were with the auxiliary diesels that were used to start the main ones.
    8. 0
      26 September 2024 16: 26
      If all the ships you listed were in service at the same time, they might have posed some kind of problem for the British. But they never reached such a state. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were stuck in Brest, where the British periodically pounded them. That's why when Bismarck went for a breakthrough, the "twins" couldn't help him. Bismarck was sunk, Tirpitz entered service, the "twins" were still stuck in Brest. During the passage through the English Channel, they were damaged and put in for repairs. In which Gneisenau was finished off completely. By the time Scharnhorst was patched up, Tirpitz had already been damaged. And so they went in circles, then Lützow was added to them. But it was very rare for them to be at the same time. So the British kept two Kings and an aircraft carrier in Scapa, it was enough for them.
      1. 0
        26 September 2024 21: 50
        Quote: TermNachTER
        "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau" were stuck in Brest, where they were periodically pounded by the British. Therefore, when "Bismarck" went for a breakthrough, the "twins" could not help it in any way.

        You distort reality quite a bit.
        The original version of the Rheinübung included the Bismarck, Gneisenau and Eugen.
        After the damage to the Eugen (which led to a shift in the start of the operation), the Scharnhorst was included in the operation instead of the damaged Gneisenau, but it simply did not have time to go out to sea - everything ended quickly.

        Quote: TermNachTER
        Tirpitz has entered service, the "twins" are still hanging around in Brest.

        Because before the US entered the war, the Germans continued planning campaigns in the Atlantic, but protracted repairs and the Americans nipped this idea in the bud.

        Quote: TermNachTER
        By the time the Scharnhorst was patched up, the Tirpitz had already been damaged.

        For reference: Operation Paderborn (Scharnhorst's transfer to Norway) - March 8-14, 1943.
        Operation "Sors" (attack "Tirpitz" SMPL) - September 22, 1943.
        1. 0
          26 September 2024 23: 16
          So fast that the Scharnhorst didn't have time to move away from the pier? The Bismarck was driven for two days, and the Scharnhorst could have reached the place where it was sunk in reverse during that time.
          In addition to the fleet, aviation also worked on the Tirpitz.
          1. 0
            27 September 2024 19: 13
            Quote: TermNachTER
            So fast that the Scharnhorst didn't have time to move away from the pier? The Bismarck was driven for two days, and the Scharnhorst could have reached the place where it was sunk in reverse during that time.

            The Scharnhorst was hastily completing repairs. According to the plan, it was supposed to go to sea at the end of May or the beginning of June, when the Bismarck group broke through to the ocean.
            1. 0
              27 September 2024 19: 15
              I stop understanding you. You said that they were running, now you say that he was finishing the repairs in a hurry))) Which of the options is correct?)))
              1. 0
                27 September 2024 19: 26
                Quote: TermNachTER
                I stop understanding you. You said that they were running, now you say that he was finishing the repairs in a hurry))) Which of the options is correct?)))

                Can I get the exact quote where I said the "twins" were on the move?
                I wrote that he was being prepared to participate in the operation...
                Let me repeat once again: at the time the operation began (let's say on May 20), the Scharnhorst was hastily completing the current repairs to the propulsion plant and loading supplies; the ship's departure was planned for the end of May-beginning of June, after the deployment of the Bismarck Battle Group in the Central Atlantic.
                1. 0
                  27 September 2024 19: 39
                  "Scharnhorst" and "Gneisenau" were stuck in Brest, where they were periodically pounded by the British. Therefore, when "Bismarck" went for a breakthrough, the "twins" could not help it in any way.

                  You distort reality quite a bit.
                  The original version of the Rheinübung included the Bismarck, Gneisenau and Eugen.
                  After the damage to the Eugen (which led to a shift in the start of the operation), the Scharnhorst was included in the operation instead of the damaged Gneisenau, but it simply did not have time to go out to sea - everything ended quickly.
    9. 0
      27 September 2024 09: 30
      If Captain Hans Langsdorff, instead of beautifully sinking the ship and no less beautifully shooting himself, had gone for a breakthrough, he would have had a good (not absolute, but nevertheless) chance of breaking through to the ocean, and then look for his whistles.

      One of the reasons for refusing to "break through" into the ocean was the damage to the ship. Especially in the bow. Since it was not possible to repair the damage globally in the three allotted days, Langsdorf preferred to self-sink in the port rather than scoop up water with its bow even in fresh weather, which also imposed restrictions on the speed in the event of an encounter with the enemy. So it is much easier to dream on the couch than to make decisions in the captain's place wink
  8. +1
    26 September 2024 07: 31
    A separate issue is the combat qualities of the Kriegsmarine's surface ships.
    Line ships:
    Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are in fact battlecruisers, underarmed and weighed down with useless armor from the point of view of the tasks set. The construction of ships from the point of view of somehow using the available reserve is a gross mistake. At the same time, they were used quite intensively at the beginning of the war and brought a lot of benefit.
    Bismarck and Tirpitz are actually full-size battlecruisers. Absolutely useless in terms of war with Great Britain. Hence the enormous cruising range, good armor from the point of view of a floating target, clearly inferior armament, but against no smaller ships like King George V - this will do. By the way, at the main combat distances, King is absolutely penetrable for 38 cm SK C/34, unlike Bismarck against 14" Mark VII.
    However, it was the Tirpitz, which saw little combat, that caused the greatest damage to the enemy, threatening the polar convoys in 1942-1943.
    1. 0
      26 September 2024 16: 45
      "Bismarck" hit "Prince of Wales" with three shells - this did not affect its combat capability in any way. The decision to stop the battle and begin pursuit was made by the commander of the cruiser squadron, Rear Admiral Wake-Walker. After Holland's death, he remained the senior commander on the spot.
      1. 0
        26 September 2024 20: 09
        We are not talking about hits in general, but about penetrating the citadel. Conventionally, the free maneuvering zone (FMS).
        So, Bismarck's shells hit Prince of Wales's magazines abeam to a distance of 85 cables (15,5 km), and the boiler-engine installation to 93 cables (17 km). Prince of Wales's shells cannot hit Bismarck's citadel (belt + bevel) even at point-blank range. So Prince's lot (this also applies to Hood) is to fight in the hope of hitting the enemy's decks above the boiler-engine room from a distance of over 101 cables (18,4 km) and the magazines from a distance of over 129 cables (23,6 km).
        It is true that Bismarck's towers and barbettes are hit from a distance of 75-80 cables, compared to 102-111 cables for the opponent.
        1. 0
          26 September 2024 23: 03
          This is theoretical, in reality there were no such hits. Therefore we cannot say that they would have penetrated. There are other factors.
      2. 0
        26 September 2024 20: 30
        Quote: TermNachTER
        The decision to stop the battle and begin pursuit was made by the commander of the cruiser squadron, Rear Admiral Wake-Walker.

        A new word in the history of the battle in the Denmark Strait.
    2. 0
      26 September 2024 20: 29
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The construction of ships from the point of view of somehow using the existing reserve is a gross mistake. At the same time, they were used quite intensively at the beginning of the war and brought a lot of benefit.

      There were only 8 single-gun mounts left in stock...
      In fact, the ships were built against the Dunkirks.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Bismarck and Tirpitz are essentially full-size battlecruisers. Completely useless in terms of a war with Great Britain.

      Because they were built against the Richelieu-type battleships.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      By the way, at the main combat distances, the King is absolutely penetrable for the 38 cm SK C/34, unlike the Bismarck against the 14" Mark VII.

      The British believed that at distances of 10-16 thousand yards the Tirpitz's tanks and magazines could be easily penetrated by a 14" shell.
      The "King"'s cellars penetrate up to a distance of 14000 yards, the machines - up to 16000.
      1. 0
        26 September 2024 23: 05
        So the Richelieu also has quite normal armor, close in capabilities to the Kings.
      2. 0
        27 September 2024 06: 32
        Good morning, Maxim!
        We've already discussed this.
        The British planned the armour based on the capabilities of their own guns, not knowing the combat qualities of the 38-cm SKC 34.
        And the vertical protection of Bismarck and its penetration were calculated only along the main belt without taking into account the slope. Taking into account the quality of the armor and the angle of the shell's impact with the obstacle along the traverse, the given thickness of Bismarck's protection is 600 - 660 mm, which excludes the penetration of the King George V by a shell at close and medium ranges.
        The final decisions on the armament of Bismarck were made on 09.05.1935, long before the laying of Richelieu and specifically with an eye on Hood. Just as the reserve for three-gun turrets for pickpockets had been in place since 1934.
        1. 0
          27 September 2024 19: 18
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The British planned the armour based on the capabilities of their own guns, not knowing the combat qualities of the 38-cm SKC 34.
          And the vertical protection of Bismarck and its penetration were calculated only along the main belt without taking into account the slope.

          Information from a document from 42, where the Tirpitz has a bevel, the weight of the German projectile is 800 kg, and the initial velocity is 830 m/s.
          1. 0
            28 September 2024 10: 11
            Maksim!
            Well, how much more can you do? Take the stupid formula of De Marr or Thompson and calculate the interaction with two consecutive obstacles:
            First 320mm KS 0 degrees;
            The second 105 mm KH 67,5 degrees.
            And you will be happy. If you don't believe in mathematics, but trust authorities, read Pechukonis, Dashyan and others.
            There, Pechukonis has a calculation of the penetration of a vertical and horizontal obstacle of 15"/45, planned for 15A and 15B in 1935, and compare it with the penetration declared by the lemonade gunners for Bismarck. Remember, I wrote that during the shelling of Baden, the lemonade gunners never worked on the target belt/bevel. Hence their delusions.
            And the participants in the creation of the T-80 explained to me the interaction with a gentle slope well enough when we modeled a beyond-design-basis accident at the facility.
            1. 0
              28 September 2024 12: 45
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Well, as much as you can

              I still think that the people sitting in the Admiralty were far from stupid and did not eat their bread for nothing.
          2. 0
            28 September 2024 10: 24
            Into the same pocket:
            Jurens has some good (refined) data on the armor penetration of Bismarck's shells. Just look at the resistance of the 14-15" vertical belt along the trave under its fire. Despite all the criticism, Okun also has data, so "Prince of Wales, reliably protected against Bismarck" is akin to our "having no analogues in the world".
  9. +9
    26 September 2024 07: 31
    A wild mix of boyish vocabulary and drawn-out facts, and what the twilight Teutonic genius has to do with it, how he destroyed the Kriegsmarine, I did not find an answer.
    1. +7
      26 September 2024 08: 46
      Quote: mr.ZinGer
      what does the twilight Teutonic genius have to do with it, how did he destroy the Kriegsmarine, I didn't find an answer

      For clickbait... wink
  10. +7
    26 September 2024 07: 41
    The article is so-so, intended for those with little knowledge.

    "The largest submarine fleet was not able to ensure the blockade of trade routes and bring Britain to its knees before starvation."

    This is absolutely not true.
    Before the US entered the war and radars appeared on planes, German submarines were very effective, but radars on planes did not appear immediately. Doenitz spoke of 300 submarines (and he had something like 50 at the beginning of the war), which could block shipping. 300 sevens in 1939 instead of battleships - and a very, very big question, what would have happened next.

    Churchill wrote that he feared nothing more than German submarines.
    1. +2
      26 September 2024 08: 36
      Quote: S.Z.
      Before the US entered the war and radar appeared on aircraft, German submarines were very effective, but radar did not appear on aircraft right away.

      I would also add mass production here. submarine hunters, which were baked in American shipyards like hot cakes, and round-the-clock patrols by anti-submarine aircraft in the Atlantic, which did not even let the German submarines stick their noses out. They took off, it seems, every half hour from the Bahamas and landed in Scotland. In turn, other crews took off from Scotland and landed in the Bahamas. Thus, the airspace over the Atlantic was completely controlled...
      1. +2
        26 September 2024 09: 32
        I would also add here the mass production of submarine hunters, which were baked in American shipyards like hot cakes, and the round-the-clock patrolling of the Atlantic by anti-submarine aircraft, which did not even give the German submarines a chance to stick their noses out.


        This is true, of course, American technical assistance was very useful, including aviation, the "black hole" where the Allied aviation did not operate completely disappeared with the use of escort aircraft carriers. But the number of submarines was also increasing, so there could have been parity here.

        I would like to dwell on the fundamental problem of submarines. Submarines attacked from the surface, at night, and the use of radar on an aircraft drove the submarines underwater, where they were detected by ASDIC and driven away from the convoys or destroyed. In addition, underwater they could not catch up with the convoys. Radars on aircraft negated the main advantage of submarines - invisibility. And the Battle of the Atlantic ended due to a clear technical advantage.

        If electric boats had appeared in 43, everything could have changed, but they never appeared, they didn't have time. A rare case when technical means that appeared during battles had a decisive influence on their outcome.
        1. 0
          26 September 2024 10: 01
          If electric boats had appeared in 43, everything could have changed.

          What would it change? A boat underwater cannot have a long-term high speed, the batteries are quickly discharged. And using a snorkel is also difficult - at periscope depth the boat is determined visually from the air.
          1. 0
            26 September 2024 10: 42
            Quote from solar

            What would it change? A boat underwater cannot have a long-term high speed, the batteries are quickly discharged. And using a snorkel is also difficult - at periscope depth the boat is determined visually from the air.


            At night, the snorkel is not visible, the anti-radar coating, as far as I know, worked, the submarine of the 21 series could shoot without a periscope... It is difficult to say whether these capabilities would have been effective, but there is such a possibility. One commander of an electric submarine wrote that his submarine, after the announcement of the cancellation of submarine warfare, went to the attack position of an allied convoy in the North (I think) Sea and left unnoticed, although he did not shoot.

            These projects should not be underestimated, as they became a model for post-war boats, as far as I know, in some countries.
          2. 0
            26 September 2024 16: 46
            The new centimeter radar also detected the snorkel, albeit from a distance of one and a half miles.
    2. +1
      26 September 2024 11: 57
      Quote: S.Z.
      Doenitz spoke of 300 submarines (and he had something like 50 at the beginning of the war), which could block shipments. 300 sevens in 1939 instead of battleships - and a very, very big question, what would have happened next.

      There are no questions there. The German shipbuilding program, which will give 300 Sevens in 1939 instead of battleships, will inevitably give rise to a response program of ASW shipbuilding in Britain. Fortunately, the Island Empire has experience in building mass ASW ships.
      And considering that the "seven" costs as much as three "flowers", PLO will clearly have an advantage. smile

      And this is without even mentioning the "Tulkin fleet"...
      On September 3.9.1939, 56, the fleet of England and its dominions, in addition to two units of the "Basset" type, included 393 patrol and trawling trawlers (displacement from 593 to 10,5 tons, speed 12 - 102 knots, armament - one or two 40- mm/76 or 40 mm/XNUMX guns).
      With the outbreak of hostilities, the Admiralty launched a program of mass construction of trawlers according to the slightly modified "Basset" project: in 1939-1945. 192 units of the "Tree", "Dance", "Shakespearian" and "Isles" types entered service. In addition to the heirs of "Basset", in 1941-1944. The fleet was replenished with several more types of trawlers. Most of them were reworkings of designs for civilian vessels (Hills, Round Table, Fish and Military types) and World War I admiralty trawlers (Castle type). A small number of trawlers were ordered abroad (Professor type). In addition to specialized ships, since the beginning of the war the Admiralty requisitioned from private owners about 1300 trawlers, 200 whaling ships and about 550 drifters.
      © A.V. Dashyan. Ships of the Second World War. British Navy. Part 2.
      1. 0
        26 September 2024 12: 48
        Quote: Alexey RA
        There are no questions there. The German shipbuilding program, which will produce 300 sevens in 1939 instead of battleships, will inevitably give rise to a response anti-submarine shipbuilding program in Britain.


        It is highly doubtful. Even the small number of submarines that Germany had forced Britain to buy, it seems, 50 old destroyers from the US, and not just buy them, but exchange them for a military base. Without US help, Britain would have had a much harder time. Moreover, submarines are much easier and faster to build than battleships - we have reached the point of one submarine per day. A very talented people technically.

        But small civilian vessels could not be escorted across the Atlantic - even destroyers had a hard time there.
        1. 0
          26 September 2024 16: 47
          Quote: S.Z.
          It is highly doubtful. Even the small number of submarines that Germany had forced Britain to buy, it seems, 50 old destroyers from the US, and not just buy them, but exchange them for a military base.

          The "flowers" were just a little late - they were remembered only at the beginning of 1939, so they went into mass production in 1941. If the program begins before the war, then by 1939 Britain already has established serial production. The same one in which three corvettes cost as much as one submarine.
          Quote: S.Z.
          Moreover, submarines are much easier and faster to build than battleships.

          Corvettes are also built faster than battleships. wink
          Quote: S.Z.
          And small civilian vessels could not be escorted across the Atlantic.

          They went to the command of the Approaches, releasing specially built ships for ocean routes.
          And, by the way, the “flowers” ​​can’t be called giants either – their displacement is about 1000 tons.
        2. 0
          26 September 2024 16: 48
          Given the economic and industrial advantage of England (USA), the Germans had no chance, even under the most favorable circumstances.
      2. +1
        26 September 2024 16: 14
        Quote: Alexey RA
        A German shipbuilding program that would produce 300 Type 1939s in XNUMX instead of battleships would inevitably spawn a British ASW shipbuilding program in response.

        Let me remind you that before the Battle of the Atlantic, submarines were considered weapon of the poor. I'll tell you even more, the most important thing is that submarines were considered a weapon that was completely defeated anti-submarine forces in the First World War and was looked at the same way we look at cavalry or bayonet tactics today. And ASDIC (sonar system), invented at the very end of the war, generally put an end to all submarine forces. And it was also cheap...
        1. +2
          26 September 2024 16: 43
          Quote: Luminman
          Let me remind you that before the Battle of the Atlantic, submarines were considered a weapon of the poor. I will tell you even more, the most important thing is that submarines were considered a weapon, which was completely defeated by anti-submarine forces in the First World War

          Absolutely right. And therefore, as soon as the Reich begins to build submarines en masse, Britain will immediately begin to build anti-submarine forces en masse to defeat submarines. Without waiting for the same situation to arise as in WWI. Fortunately, the naval command staff remembers the previous Great War very well.
          By the way, the Limeys even started working on the "flowers" in real life back in early 1939.
        2. 0
          26 September 2024 17: 36
          Quote: Luminman
          Quote: Alexey RA
          A German shipbuilding program that would produce 300 Type 1939s in XNUMX instead of battleships would inevitably spawn a British ASW shipbuilding program in response.

          Let me remind you that before the Battle of the Atlantic, submarines were considered weapon of the poor. I'll tell you even more, the most important thing is that submarines were considered a weapon that was completely defeated anti-submarine forces in the First World War and was looked at the same way we look at cavalry or bayonet tactics today. And ASDIC (sonar system), invented at the very end of the war, generally put an end to all submarine forces. And it was also cheap...


          They were the weapon of the poor - and they were used effectively only against merchant shipping. That's why Germany and the US had the greatest success in this.

          At the beginning of the Second World War, the submarine was underestimated both in Britain and in the German High Command - except for Doenitz.

          The Germans came up with a surface attack at night against the ASDIQ and were quite successful before the advent of radars on planes. That is, the Germans took the ASDIQ out of the game by attacking from the surface. When the British improved their convoy system, the Germans introduced wolf pack tactics. Radar on the plane and the numerical advantage due to the USA stopped this game.

          Before the US entered the war, the Germans had a chance, after - no.
          1. +1
            26 September 2024 19: 22
            Quote: S.Z.
            Before the US entered the war, the Germans had a chance, after - no.
            Most likely, with such a small number of submarines. If there had been 300 of them, as Doenitz dreamed, the Battle of the Atlantic would have had a completely different result...
  11. +6
    26 September 2024 07: 46
    "For two battleships, two sub-battleships and six heavy cruisers, it looks downright pathetic."

    Comrade does not understand (c)

    This relatively small force tied down the entire Royal Navy and much of the air force and required enormous expenditure of resources.

    However, all the author's articles are built on the same principle - to show how bad "they" are. In this way, narrow-minded people try to show that, against this background, we are not so bad.
  12. +5
    26 September 2024 08: 03
    So, the torpedo boat of the gloomy Teutonic genius.

    Fairy tales. The German Schnellboats were not fundamentally different from the Allied torpedo boats, they were slightly larger, more seaworthy and had slightly better combat capability.
    1. +4
      26 September 2024 08: 31
      The German Schnellboats were not fundamentally different from the Allied torpedo boats; they were slightly larger, more seaworthy, and had slightly better combat capability.
      The author did not find anything about Schnellbots in Wikipedia, as he is urgently writing a new article about something else.
    2. +4
      26 September 2024 08: 39
      Quote from solar
      The German Schnellboats were not fundamentally different from the Allied torpedo boats.

      speedboat - German name for a torpedo boat...
      1. +2
        26 September 2024 09: 48
        Schnellboot is a broader term than torpedo boat, although it is often used as a synonym for German torpedo boats of World War II.
        Torpedo boat in German.
        https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motortorpedoboot
        A Schnellboote is a speedboat or a speed boat in literal translation.
        https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnellboote_der_Reichs-_und_Kriegsmarine
        In English, the name of this class of ships sounds like fast attack craft (FAC).
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_attack_craft
        In Russian - high-speed attack boat.
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Быстроходный_ударный_катер
        1. 0
          26 September 2024 16: 55
          There were also raumbots and other things, but everything was made on the basis of the Schnellbot.
  13. +4
    26 September 2024 08: 18
    It seems to me that if you count how many British ships were sunk, then questions might arise about their expediency.
  14. +4
    26 September 2024 08: 35
    6. Torpedo boat type 1939 "Elbing".

    It is clear that the author does not know anything, but there is literature, thematic dictionaries, for example.
    Torpedoboot is not a torpedo boat. It is a destroyer. And the torpedo boat, which is G-5, the Germans called motortorpedoboot or schnellboot.
    And "Elbing" is a Flottentorpedoboot according to the German classification. In other navies, such ships were called an escort destroyer or an escort destroyer (destroyer escort).
    It becomes interesting whether the author will reach the theory of probability in his critical exercises or not.
  15. +4
    26 September 2024 09: 46
    The plan for war with Great Britain appeared only in 1938. The so-called "Plan Z". Yes, and rearmament began already in 1933. At least a year later, destroyers of the "1934" type and submarines were being built at full speed.

    And this is a very interesting point: the fleet was being built, but there was no plan for war with the main naval enemy. That is, the revival of the Kriegsmarine began simply and uncomplicatedly: we build, and then we'll figure it out!

    Phenomenal knowledge in the field of history.
    Plan Z was not a plan for war with Great Britain. It was a naval construction program developed in 1938, according to which the Kriegsmarine was to have 1947 ships of the main classes by 492.
    By the way, almost at the same time a similar program was adopted in the USSR. Moreover, its completion was also planned for 1947. By that time, the Soviet Navy was supposed to have 599 ships of the main classes.
    As for the "plan for war with the main naval enemy", there really was none. Germany was not going to fight Britain. But there were naval construction programs.
    In 1932, the Schiffbauersatzplan was adopted, which envisaged two separate stages: the first from 1930 to 1936, and the second from 1936 to 1943.
    In 1935, due to the signing of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, the plan was increased and the completion date was pushed back to 1949.
    But in 1938, during the Sudetenland Crisis, Great Britain made it clear that it would fight Germany. The plans for building the fleet were revised once again, this time taking into account a possible war with Britain. The adjusted plan was designated Bauplan III (the third option) or Umbauplan z. This is where the designation Z-Plan appeared in the literature.
  16. +2
    26 September 2024 09: 48
    "It is simply worth recalling the balance of power on 1.09.1939 between the Royal Navy and the Kriegsmarine" - the author apparently does not know that Germany had Italy as an ally with a very significant fleet. Yes, until the summer of 1940 there was an allied French fleet, but when it ceased to be an allied fleet, the situation with the available composition of surface ships for the British became dire. And the following year the British had to create the Eastern Fleet...
    "Germany - 4" is incorrect, 2 + 2 were built.
    "Germany - 0" is incorrect, - 1 was under construction
    And so on for each point.
    And yes, you have to know how to write such an article!
  17. +2
    26 September 2024 10: 50
    The dark Teutonic genius that drove the Third Reich leadership to build completely useless but impressive ships practically destroyed all chances of the Kriegsmarine for not only victory, but even for some semblance of confrontation.

    1. No need to offend the Teutonic genius. It is not his fault that the gloomy German capital and the basic law of capitalism about maximum profit naturally did their job.
    2. Another thing is that the already prepared ships and sailors in the decisive period of 1941-43 were thrown by the command to the third-degree front in the Atlantic. When the Oberkommando finally realized that the war was being decided in the East and it was necessary to build not battleships, cruisers and submarines, but minesweepers, barges and boats, it was already too late.
  18. +5
    26 September 2024 10: 57
    What pure fiction! Again about brilliant plans. Oh, how clever the British are, how cleverly they outplayed everyone, that later they gave away half of the colonies for antediluvian destroyers. And they didn't build battleships because they had no money, they were in crisis, but otherwise it was a cunning plan. Bismarck was initially built to counter Dunkirk, neither Caseir nor Hitler were going to fight England, for both of them the land army was a priority.
  19. +3
    26 September 2024 11: 26
    "Hood" in 1941, the newest battlecruiser? That's something... "Rinanun" will withstand a 283mm shell? It's highly doubtful, the battlecruisers of WWI, which had the same 229mm belt, couldn't withstand it... If all these ships were so useless, why were so many forces wasted fighting them? These forces could also be redirected to other tasks.
    1. 0
      26 September 2024 12: 08
      Quote: Black cat
      Will the Rinanun withstand a 283mm shell?

      Yeah... into the superstructure without breaking. wink
      1. 0
        26 September 2024 16: 59
        If you build ships based on the assumption that enemy shells will hit safe places or won't explode, you can set this up))) because they always built based on the assumption that their own BP could withstand hits from their main battery.
        1. 0
          27 September 2024 11: 08
          Quote: TermNachTER
          If you build ships based on the assumption that enemy shells will hit safe places or won't explode, you can set something like this up)))

          That's how they built it. It's a well-known concept from the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries - unarmored cruisers with guns without shields. The shell will either fly past or not arm. smile
          1. 0
            27 September 2024 11: 22
            They had no armor belt, but had an armored deck, which in theory was supposed to protect the engines, magazines and provide some buoyancy. And these ships were built for auxiliary purposes, not for line combat.
  20. +2
    26 September 2024 12: 25
    Interesting article, but... more for fans of "Alternative history", something like Luftwaffe 46, or something like that...
  21. 0
    26 September 2024 12: 54
    More useful ships could and should be built.

    I wonder what kind of ones they are? Like everyone else, standard ones? And they would fight against a numerically superior enemy? And with what result? I think that in conditions of a lack of resources and time, the Germans took the only path that gave at least some opportunity to fight.
  22. 0
    26 September 2024 16: 28
    One cannot help but note the author's professionalism as a journalist and blogger, who gathers a large audience with simple but extremely effective techniques.

    It's a pity the discussion has gone into rivets and copy-pasting competitions. The question is really interesting. The Kriegsmarine openly played a giveaway game throughout the war with the complete connivance of the country's military and political leadership. The abysses are opening up

    destroyed all chances for the Kriegsmarine to not only win, but even to achieve some semblance of confrontation

    A very accurate observation. The fleet was built and used in such a way that absolutely nothing could have affected the outcome.
  23. 0
    26 September 2024 17: 23
    Quote from Ponimatel
    More useful ships could and should be built.

    I wonder what kind of ones they are? Like everyone else, standard ones? And they would fight against a numerically superior enemy? And with what result? I think that in conditions of a lack of resources and time, the Germans took the only path that gave at least some opportunity to fight.

    The main force of the Wehrmacht is the ground forces and the outcome of the war for Germany was decided on land. The most useful ships for Germany are the ships to assist the ground forces. Sea and river barges, boats, minesweepers, minelayers - all of these Minenbot, Raumbot, Vorpostenbot, Farpram, Schnellbot, Gunboats (artillery launchers), small submarines and so on and so forth. The most different and good mines. Coastal aviation, coastal artillery and marines. Seize dominance on the English Channel in 1940, on Lake Ladoga in 1941, on the Volga in 1942. This could really help Germany in this war.
  24. +3
    26 September 2024 17: 44
    While I was reading this, I'm not afraid to say it, work of art, a bearded joke kept spinning around in my head...
    The Russian language teacher, when she jumped with a parachute for the first time, was very shocked, very surprised and extremely discouraged, but for some reason she shouted out loud differently.


    I realized that everything I knew about the history of the Kriegsmarine could be safely thrown into the dustbin of this very history...
    In summary, the author has outdone himself: commenting on this article would only ruin it.
  25. +2
    26 September 2024 18: 11
    I see that recently it has become fashionable among Internet authors to casually kick Valentin Savvich Pikul when describing this or that historical event. Like, everything he has written is anti-historical nonsense.
    Valentin Pikul, a 14-year-old boy, first ran away to a cabin boy's school, then served until the end of the war on that very "seven" of that very Northern Fleet. And it is certainly not for today's "armchair experts" to criticize his descriptions of the events that took place precisely on the Northern Fleet. Especially, distorting Pikul himself. Who in his "PQ-17" openly writes that all the "fear" of the English was based not on military-technical or operational-tactical aspects, but exclusively on political ones.
    Yes, certainly, Pikul is a fiction writer. But his main merit is that Soviet boys and girls knew in principle that there was such a heroic page in our history as the escort of Arctic convoys. For example, I first learned about it from him. And about Lunin, and about Safonov, and about the gold on the Edinburgh, and about Lieutenant Gradwell, a former lawyer... And only then did I supplement or correct this knowledge from other sources.

    Now about Tirpitz's "uselessness".
    Of course, one can "blame" Tirpitz for the "lack of victories" (it didn't even sink the Izhora). But it was the presence of Tirpitz that allowed the 17th convoy to collapse and the subsequent ones to be messed with. The author calculated how much these shortfalls cost our country?
  26. +2
    26 September 2024 18: 22
    Half the article is a copy-paste of Andrey Zaitsev’s article from Zen. "The Tale of the XXI Series Submarines. How the Bottom Broke Through."
  27. 0
    26 September 2024 19: 43
    The author found an explanation for the idiotic Anglo-German naval agreement - well, the English wanted to shoot themselves in the foot - pure masochism - and about the quality of German ships - it seems the designers degraded after WW1 - by WW2 there was not a single type of ship about which anything good could be said
  28. -1
    26 September 2024 19: 57
    By allowing Hitler to build a fleet, the British still managed to "splurge" on resources. If they had formed a tank group instead of the Tirpitz, we might not have held out. Yes, they overlooked the submarine fleet, but I suspect that the British were counting on the bridle of "prize law".
    As for the use of the existing fleet, this is definitely a song without words. Decent ones. Raids into the Atlantic with large ships - they circled around the tanker "Altmark". The self-sinking of the "Spee" is on the conscience of the "upper" headquarters. The main threat is the English battlecruisers, but they are spread evenly across the globe, from the metropolis to Singapore inclusive. Who, where and in what condition should be known in the headquarters. The capture of Norway. The death of the "Blücher" is solely on the conscience of the command. The loss of destroyers in Narvik - too. The list is long, and based on the totality of his merits, Raeder can be awarded the medal "For the Victory over Germany". He deserved it.
  29. 0
    27 September 2024 15: 29
    A bad, undeveloped, I would even say "amateur" article. And this is from an author who has been writing articles for a long time. If earlier the articles were controversial, but raised a discussion. Then lately - it is just a set of emotions and personal opinion of the author without any analysis of the topic.
    The history of the army's development should ALWAYS be considered in the context of politics. And the construction of such a complex and expensive part of the army as the navy, EVEN MORE so, should also be considered from the standpoint of political course.
    And the course is this - that the German fleet was initially limited by the IMPOSSIBILITY of conducting open development of a large-tonnage fleet. And it could build ONLY after the mustachioed man came to power.
    And most importantly, the fleet was created based on several main objectives:
    a) Restore the competence and experience of building a large-tonnage fleet and develop experience in waging war at sea
    b) Development of the shipbuilding and steel industry. Development of the construction of power plants and measuring equipment, etc.
    c) A propaganda symbol of the restoration of the strength and role of the state on the world stage
    d) To carry out a naval blockade and support troops on the shore in the event of the outbreak of war with the USSR with the support or neutrality of European countries
    d) Destroy the fleet and convoys of the fleet of European countries in the case when the mustachioed one could capture the countries of Europe IN TURN. In such a scenario, as at the time of the war with Britain, it would have almost no allies left in Europe. And the fleet of the same France could strengthen the fleet of Germany
    e) And all this is on the condition that the USA does not enter the war, or does so later.

    And here the problem emerges. The first points (which are tied to peacetime) were fulfilled. But with the beginning of the war everything went wrong for them, unfortunately, for everyone else, fortunately, awry. Not only did the war not start according to plan with the European countries, and not yet with the USSR. Then Great Britain, France, Benelux did it right away. And as a result, although the continental countries were captured, the leadership of the countries and the fleets managed to evacuate to the same Britain. And then the leadership itself decided to make a second front for itself, starting the Soviet campaign. And all this despite the fact that the largest and strongest ally (Japan), although it had one of the strongest fleets, was not only far away (and therefore could not help Germany with its actions). And Japan also created a second front for itself (it dragged the USA into the war despite the fact that China and the islands of the South China Sea had not yet come under their control)
  30. 0
    27 September 2024 16: 46
    And in the end, although the continental countries were captured, the leadership of the countries and the fleets managed to evacuate to the same Britain.

    France's largest continental fleet (and its leadership) were not evacuated to Britain. Together, the fleets of Germany, Italy and Vichy France could well have established dominance at least in the Mediterranean, the Suez Canal and entered the Indian Ocean.
    And all this despite the fact that the largest and strongest ally (Japan), although it had one of the strongest fleets, was not only far away (and therefore could do little to help Germany with its actions). Japan also created a second front for itself (it drew the USA into the war).

    The Japanese fleet passed through the Indian Ocean, destroying the British in 1942, and the war with the USA could not stop it then. Only until the end of 1942 was there a chance to organize interaction between the Japanese and the fleets of other Axis countries, but it was missed. And after 1942 there were no more such chances.
    To summarize, we can conclude that in 1940-42, the interaction between the Axis countries was an order of magnitude worse than that between the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition after 1942.
  31. 0
    27 September 2024 22: 49
    Some kind of one-sided presentation of the material. Look at how idiots the Germans are, and everyone else is smart....
  32. +1
    29 September 2024 04: 01
    What then were the German Schnellboats, if the German destroyers were torpedo boats? belay
  33. 0
    1 October 2024 07: 18
    Quote: TermNachTER
    I was also stunned by the torpedo boat "Leopard"))) the author at least thought about what he was painting)))

    Well, for some reason the Germans called their destroyers "torpedo boats", I don't know why. So the kind author bought it. All together it's called - mastery of the subject.
    The author has no knowledge of the topic whatsoever.
  34. 0
    Yesterday, 10: 04
    For me, the Germans' problem is in their neglect of the surface fleet, as I understand it, they stopped building it with the start of the Great War. But if they had more ships and had built a couple of aircraft carriers, a completely different card could have gone.