Ivan the Terrible's Campaign to Kazan 1549–1550. Preparation for a Military Campaign

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Ivan the Terrible's Campaign to Kazan 1549–1550. Preparation for a Military Campaign

В past publication we stopped at how the Crimean protégé on the Kazan throne, Safa Giray, "died in his stomach" and his two-year-old son Utyamish ascended to the throne. The crisis of power looked especially dangerous for the Kazan people against the backdrop of unrest among some of the native Bulgar feudal lords. Back in 1546, the right-bank (mountain) Cheremis, together with the Chuvashes, rebelled against the khan and practically escaped his subordination.

Moreover, the pro-Moscow bloc of the Kazan aristocracy began sending the usual signals to the Russian tsar again. To paraphrase the famous lines of the chronicler, it sounded like "our land is abundant, but there is no order in it; come with an army and seat your henchman."



Such requests from loyal Kazan feudal lords are reflected in the story of Archimandrite Nikifor of the Spassky Monastery about the campaign of 1550 and in other sources. But this time Ivan IV's intentions could have been much more serious than establishing another shaky protectorate.

How did Moscow prepare for the upcoming campaign, what goals did it set, how many forces and weapons did it manage to gather? Let's talk about all this.

What goals did Moscow set?


There is still no consensus in historiography on this matter. According to researcher S. Kh. Alishev, as early as 1545, the First Throne planned a full-fledged conquest of the khanate, “but the decision to take (the khan’s capital. – Note by P. Kanaev) was probably made by the Boyar Duma in the spring of 1549, where, in addition to the boyars, Metropolitan Macarius, Prince Vladimir and the tsar’s brother Prince Yuri participated.”

Some historians even believe that already in 1445 Moscow firmly decided to take Kazan and include it in the Russian state as soon as possible. According to researchers R. G. Fakhrutdinov and A. M. Ermushev, such a turning point in goal-setting in the Volga theater occurred only in 1550. A. G. Bakhtin suggested that Moscow finally set its sights on annexing Kazan only in the spring of 1552, when it was not possible to reach a peace agreement with the Kazan people.

It is difficult to say which of the listed positions is closer to the truth. Beginning with the reign of Ivan III, Moscow regularly sent large armies and artillery outfits under the walls of Kazan, but the matter has not yet gone beyond another protectorate and the establishment of a pocket khan. It is possible that the same thing was planned back in 1548, and only the power vacuum in the khanate in connection with the sudden death of Safa Giray finally pushed Moscow to more decisive measures.

On the other hand, the need for a radical solution to the Kazan issue was openly discussed much earlier, even under Vasily III. For example, after the founding of Vasilgorod (modern Vasilsursk), Metropolitan Daniil wrote about this in 1523.

Maxim the Greek, who ruled out the possibility of an alliance between the Orthodox and Muslims, also belonged to the "party of hawks." He suggested that Vasily Ivanovich take advantage of the truce with Lithuania to throw all his forces into conquering the Volga Khanate. These statements fell on fertile ground: it was not for nothing that at the start of the Volga campaign in 1524, the sovereign traveled with his army all the way to Nizhny Novgorod, visiting holy places and listening to prayers.

Initially, the Grand Duke allegedly intended to reach Kazan itself. All this looked like a declaration of intent to move on to bolder actions in the eastern direction. Although the most large-scale information campaign in favor of conquering Kazan unfolded later, through the efforts of Metropolitan Macarius, Ivan Peresvetov and a number of other Moscow propagandists of the times of the formidable Tsar.


Grand Duke of Moscow Vasily III Ivanovich. Engraving from the end of the 16th century by the French traveler and explorer Andre Thevet

A seditious thought arises that, beginning with the establishment of the first Crimean protectorate in the khanate in 1521 (the accession of Sahib Giray) and right up until 1552, there was no clear goal in all Moscow's campaigns. The minimum program in any case was the liberation of Kazan from the tenacious clutches of the Crimean Girays. Further actions could depend on a number of factors: how successful the military campaign would be for Moscow, what would be the balance of power and the mood among the Kazan aristocracy.

Who knows how events would have unfolded, say, in 1530, if the Russian troops had won a more impressive victory. In reality, the military success was half-hearted, and Moscow had to expel the Crimean protege (the same Safa Giray) again and put its henchman (Jan-Ali) on the throne with the help of the pro-Russian bloc of the Kazan aristocracy.

Of course, in such a situation, there could be no talk of annexing the khanate.

Moreover, everyone understood perfectly well that Kazan and Moscow were not in a vacuum: it was necessary to take into account the factor of third forces (Crimea, Lithuania, etc.) and the overall situation on the international arena. In this context, the already mentioned reasoning of Maxim Grek, who suggested “strike while the iron is hot” in Kazan while it is “not hot” in the Lithuanian direction, is indicative.

Preparation for the hike


Despite the failure of the previous one February campaign of 1549 year, the tsar and the high command again decided to march on Kazan in winter. This can be considered a tactical know-how of the mid-16th century. Earlier, during the times of Ivan III and Vasily III, almost all Volga campaigns began in late spring - early summer. This choice was explained by considerations of military logistics. The easiest and fastest way to deliver artillery to the theater of military operations was by river on ships.

Ivan the Terrible put first not logistics, but the operational situation on the borders of the Russian state. After all, the most dangerous enemies of Moscow – the Crimeans – rushed to the Moscow borders in the spring and summer to profit from the spoils and captives. It was during this “resort” season that the most large-scale Crimean invasions of Russian territories took place.

The situation on the Oka defensive line was heating up, where Vasily III had sent guards "in the amount of 20 people to curb the raids and robberies of the Perekop Tatars" every year. Of course, the figure given by Sigismund Herberstein should be treated with caution: after all, no one had presented the Austrian envoy with any military lists.

But it is quite possible that such an assessment is not far from the truth. In 1549, from April until the very beginning of autumn, all the best armies were stationed in the cities "from the Field" and along the "Bank", as that very Oka defensive line was briefly called then.

Meanwhile, Khan Safa Giray died suddenly in Kazan. Representatives of the pro-Eastern bloc of the Kazan aristocracy decided not to waste time and sent Ambassador Yenbas with twenty people to Crimea. The embassy was carrying a letter to the ruler of Taurida with a request to send Tsarevich Davlet Giray, who was in Istanbul, to Kazan to replace the underage Utyamish, who took the throne after his father's death. The coming to power of an able khan, and on Crimean sabres, would significantly increase the defense capability of the Kazan people.

The label is interesting as one of the few surviving Kazan documents from the 16th century. The message is thoroughly imbued with religious rhetoric: the confrontation with the Muscovite kingdom is interpreted as a "holy war" with the infidels, death in which grants a pass to heaven.

However, the Crimean Tsar did not have the opportunity to appreciate the determination of the Kazan feudal lords and the high-flown language of the letter.

The Meshchera Cossacks loyal to the Russian sovereign "beat" the ambassadors "on the field" at the mouth of the Medveditsa River, captured the labels and sent them to Moscow. Although it is not known for sure whether other similar appeals were sent to Taurida. As researcher Aksanov suggests, some of the Kazan envoys did reach their destination. But, running ahead, the Crimeans did not intervene in the Russian-Kazan clash.

While the Crimean threat did not allow large forces to be diverted to Kazan, the Muscovites decided to probe the theater of military operations. The discharge books contain information about a small campaign to the "Kazan places" in June 1549. The event was led by the governors B. I. and L. A. Saltykov. There are no details about the summer operation in the sources, but most likely it was purely reconnaissance in nature.

Meanwhile, the gathering of troops for the great Volga campaign was in full swing. A significant force was mobilized, including noble militias from the Moscow, Novgorod, Pskov, Toropets, Lutsk, and Rzhev lands. The vassal Kasimov prince Shah-Ali and the Astrakhan prince Ediger with their courts also took part in the campaign on the side of Moscow. The Kazan people, led by the "princes" Tabay and Kostrov, who had gone over to the service of Ivan Vasilyevich, also joined the Russian armies.

And again, not a word is said about the number of troops in the act materials. The narrative evidence is no more realistic than the Babylonian king who came to congratulate Ivan the Terrible on the capture of Kazan from the Kazan Chronicler. Thus, the Astrakhan poet Sherefi, who was in Kazan during the military campaign, counted no less than 800 warriors at hand of the "godless Ivan".

Ранее The method proposed by the researcher A. Lobin for calculating the framework number of military contingents in the first half of the 4th century, based on the number of large commanders, has already been cited, by analogy with the well-documented Polotsk campaign of Ivan the Terrible (one large commander had 5–150 combat hundreds at his disposal, each of which had about XNUMX fighters).

For the campaign in question, the rank books tell us about 21 commanders. It is important to consider that two of the listed commanders were "in line", that is, they led artillery formations. It is unlikely that they had more than 1 fighters. Let's be optimistic and assume that all the other commanders had 000 combat hundreds under their command.

As for the Kasimov Tatars in service, there must have been about 1 of them. Such conclusions can be made by studying later military lists from the time of the formidable tsar and from the early narrative evidence of A. Cantarini (000). Let us add another 1476 Tatars from the courts of Ediger and the allied Kazan princes.

In total we get approximately 17 warriors.

Once again we repeat that such calculations are approximate and only show the possible order of numbers. After all, there was simply no fixed staffing of regiments, combat hundreds and other military formations at that time.

Composition of the Moscow army


The numbers are the numbers, but what combat units are behind these figures?

Four main branches of the military were sent on the Volga campaign.

Boyar people.

As stated in the discharge book of 1475-1605 regarding the campaign we are considering,

“and at the attack the sovereign had infantrymen in armor from the boyars and governors and from the boyars’ children (in the list of M.A. Obolensky this place appears differently – “with arquebuses in armor”).

It was precisely these warriors who made up the largest part of the Moscow army in Ivan the Terrible's Volga campaigns. They were mostly horsemen from among the combat servants of the boyar children and boyars, only dismounted and thrown into the assault. Such improvised infantry was armed with hand arquebuses, sabres and spears and was equipped with armour - quilted tegelai or chain-plate armour.

The main advantage of such fighters was that, if necessary, they could “with a slight movement of the hand” turn back into horsemen with their usual saddle kits and act against enemy cavalry in the field. Also, the “boyar people” knew how to conduct positional actions and defend fortifications. In a word, they were real “universal soldiers” who were at the junction of infantry and cavalry and were suitable for solving almost any combat mission.

Horse children of the boyars and their servants.

This is the same landed cavalry that formed the main striking force of Russian sovereigns since the time of Ivan III. But in this military campaign, the number of mounted warriors was most likely inferior to the foot "boyar people": after all, the main forces were allocated directly for the assault and siege. The horsemen had to protect the gunners and other foot contingents from enemy cavalry units in the field, and at the same time carry out raids on enemy territory and perform various tactical tasks (which ones exactly, we will say in the next publication).

As for the appearance of such warriors, our old friend Sigismund Herberstein described it well.

"Their horses are small, castrated, unshod, the bridle is the lightest, then their saddles are adjusted in such a way that the riders can turn in all directions and draw the bow without any difficulty. When sitting on a horse, they pull up their legs so much that they are not at all able to withstand a strong enough blow (spear or arrow). Very few resort to spurs, and most use a whip, which always hangs on the little finger of the right hand, so that at any moment, when necessary, they can grab it and put it into action, and if the matter again comes to weapons, then they leave the whip, and it hangs freely from the hand."


Boyar children and their military servants. Images from "Notes on Muscovy" by Sigismund Herberstein

In short, the Muscovite mounted warriors were practically no different from the Tatar ones: their sets of defensive and offensive equipment were very similar to each other and had common Iranian-Ottoman roots. In historiography, such assimilation of the Russian cavalry to the eastern model was called "orientalization" (from the Latin orientum - east).

The horsemen of Ivan the Terrible were armed with oriental sabres and saadaks – sets of bow case, bow, arrows, quiver and sword belt. And again, there is no difference between the Russian and Kazan warriors: both masterfully wielded the composite bow of the “Tatar” (or Ottoman-Iranian) type. This machine gun of its time, in skilled hands, had a rate of fire of approximately ten shots per minute, versus two for the arquebus, and hit at 100–150 m.

The already mentioned chainmail and chainmail armor (baidans, bekhtertsy, kalantari, yushmans) was used as protection. Although not all of them fought "in scales, like the heat of grief." Judging by the rank books and other surviving documents from the second half of the 16th century and later, half of the army or even more could be "without armor."

Looking ahead, in 1556 in the Kashira military corporation only 45 out of 222 nobles had metal armor. Most were content with quilted tegelai (from the Old Mongolian "degel" - clothing): a multi-layered, wool or hemp-lined quilted caftan with short sleeves and a high stand-up collar.

Things were better with metal helmets: both misurkas with erekhonki and high sphero-conical helmets were widely used.


Plate-and-ring armour, which was used by Russian troops during the period in question

Gunners and squeakers.

In the period we are considering, they already represented separate branches of the military. Beginning in the 1540s, gunners served permanently for the state's salary and were engaged exclusively in military affairs (previously, artillery guns on the battlefield were operated by the masters themselves, who cast the guns, which greatly undermined the state's combat capability).


Russian gunner and Italian military engineer in Moscow service in the 15th century. Drawing by N. Kanaeva

Judging by the official documents, by the middle of the 16th century, gunners were called specialists in shooting from large siege bombards, and pishchalniks were called specialists in shooting from wheeled field guns and hand pishchals. Both received a ruchnitsa (hand pishchal) as a personal weapon for self-defense. A uniform was also provided for them - "single-row" caftans, which were issued from the treasury.


Auxiliary peasant staff.

These are literally workers of the knife and axe, as well as the shovel, hunting spear and much more. Such temporary contingents were recruited mainly from the rural population according to principles that varied at different times. Most often, they called up 1 horse or foot man from 3-5 or more peasant households. "Pososhniks" were used mainly for engineering work: digging canals, building temporary primitive fortifications, hunting, etc.

In the campaign we are considering, one of the main tasks of the "posochi" was the transportation of numerous artillery pieces.

Although their weapons could include primitive combat knives and maces, the staff-bearers were only called directly into military action in the most extreme cases – when the enemy had a total superiority of forces or suffered very large combat losses.

god of War


For the Volga campaign of 1549–1550, the Moscow command assembled not only a large army, but also an impressive artillery detachment.

Let us recall that earlier in February 1549, many Russian guns were lost during an unsuccessful attempt to march on Kazan. At that time, the troops barely managed to reach the place where the village of Rabotki in the Kstovsky district of the Nizhny Novgorod region is located today, when

“There came great heat and much dampness, and all the ice was covered with water on the Volga, and many cannons and squeaks fell into the water.”

It is obvious that the heavy artillery, siege arquebuses and bombards, sank in the literal sense of the word. For Moscow, this was an unfortunate but not fatal loss. In this regard, the words of Vasily III, quoted by Sigismund Herberstein to one gunner who tried to save his guns during the unsuccessful Kazan campaign of 1506, are indicative:

"It is not the tools that are important to me, but the people who know how to cast them and handle them."

Even if the incident described by the Austrian ambassador is just an “idle tale,” it did not come out of nowhere.

By this time, Moscow really had everything in order with specialists and a production site, so Ivan the Terrible was constantly expanding his artillery park. If necessary, the Moscow cannon yard (first mentioned in sources in 1475) could quickly manufacture missing guns.


Cannon Yard in Moscow. Painting by A. Vasnetsov

Jumping ahead a bit, it is precisely this kind of emergency replenishment of losses that is indicated by the minimum of ornaments and decorations on the cannons cast in 1551–1552. The speed of production and the number of guns then outweighed beauty. Of course, this is not yet the standardization of the artillery park, but the first, as yet unconscious steps in this direction.

Returning to the campaign of 1550, the same Astrakhan resident Sherefi reports on "11 firearms" and "4-5 air guns" that fired cannonballs, "like a piece of a mountain." According to Sherefi, such information was received from a Russian gunner who defected to the Kazan people. Let us briefly outline some of the types of guns that were sent to Kazan in 1549-1550.

Bombards (“great guns”).

We are talking about those same "4-5 air guns" from Sherefi's report. In other words, we have before us analogs of large-caliber German Hauptbusche. Such guns were also called "wall guns" because they were used to breach fortifications. The bombards did not have wheeled carriages and were placed on special wooden mounts.

The calibers of such guns can be judged by later act materials. Thus, in the discharge of 1577, three "ringed" bombards were recorded, firing 6-7 pood cannonballs. If the Astrakhan resident compared such projectiles to "pieces of a mountain", it is interesting what he would have said about the 20-pood cannonballs fired by the most monstrous "great cannons". However, even 7-pood cannons could cause serious damage to the Kazan fortress.


Breaching musket Inrog. 1577.

Fire and mounted guns.

These were large mortars that fired "from above", that is, overhead fire, stone and incendiary cannonballs. According to Sherifi, there were at least 11 of them. The most impressive siege mortars fired projectiles weighing from 1 ½ to 6 poods (from 25 to 98 kg).

With ordinary cannonballs, everything is simple: they were lead, iron or stone.

Of much greater interest are incendiary shells. Their design can be found in a charter from 1555 to clerks F. Eremeev and K. Dubrovsky, which lists the materials needed to make such a "hellish flame". Apparently, these were iron cannonballs covered with several layers of oiled cloth and paper and tied with "uzhishchi" (ropes).

Small-caliber light squeakers.

The use of a field (small) artillery unit was first mentioned in sources in the context of the Moscow campaign against Kazan in 1506. Since then, according to military historian V. V. Pensky, field artillery has become a mandatory component in all Russian military campaigns.

A significant part of the "small" outfit consisted of small-caliber falconets or, in other words, falconets. Thus, after the capture of Kazan in 1552, 340 "fancalet cannonballs" remained in the city warehouse, and 21 falconets, 9 spans long and with a caliber from ¾ to 1¾ grivna, were in Sviyazhsk. During assaults, such small weapons were often used to fire at the loopholes of enemy fortresses.

So, the preparations were completed, and it was time to move on Kazan. But the progress of the military campaign will be discussed in the next, final publication of the article series.

Sources:
Sherifi H. "Zafer name-i Vilayet-i kazan".
History about the Kazan kingdom. Kazan chronicler // Complete collection of Russian chronicles. T. 19. M., 2000.
The Discharge Book of 1475–1605. Moscow, 1977.
Herberstein Sigismund. Notes on Moscow Affairs // Russia of the 1986th–XNUMXth centuries through the eyes of foreigners. – L.: Lenizdat, XNUMX.

References:
Penskoy V. V. Military affairs of the Moscow state. From Vasily the Dark to Mikhail Romanov. Second half of the 2018th – beginning of the XNUMXth centuries. – M.: "Tsentrpoligraf", XNUMX.
Khudyakov M. G. Essays on the history of the Kazan Khanate. M., 1991.
Alishev S. Kh. Kazan and Moscow: interstate relations in the 1995th–XNUMXth centuries. Kazan, XNUMX.
Lobin A. Artillery of Ivan the Terrible. M., 2019.
Aksanov A. V. Kazan Khanate and Muscovite Rus': Interstate Relations in the Context of Hermeneutic Research. Kazan, 2016.
Volkov V. A., Vvedensky R. M. Russo-Kazan War of 1547-1552. Siege and capture of Kazan.
Florya B. Ivan the Terrible. M., 2019.
Zimin A. A., Khoroshkevich A. L. Russia in the time of Ivan the Terrible. M., 1982.
35 comments
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  1. +3
    27 September 2024 07: 22
    Good work, not that I discovered anything new, but the description is clear without confusion, it’s a pity I missed the first article, I understood the work of the dominant author here.
    1. +3
      27 September 2024 10: 17
      Thank you for your assessment, we are trying. As for the new, yes, it is still a popular science genre. Although I don't think I have seen in historiography that they tried to calculate or extrapolate at least the approximate number of contingents for this campaign. Perhaps there is a godet. But these are, of course, speculative hypotheses. I would like to get into the archives and open something, but the office galleys don't let me)
      1. +1
        27 September 2024 19: 47
        And it is impossible to calculate how many are supposed to arrive, if there are specific lists? I just dealt with another period and not our country, then it is a different matter. There will always be an evaluative characteristic here.
  2. +4
    27 September 2024 07: 59
    The campaign ended in failure, but the Russian fortress city of Sviyazhsk was founded, today one of the most beautiful places in Russia.
    1. +3
      27 September 2024 10: 17
      Yes, I always want to go there, but it never works out.
      1. +2
        27 September 2024 10: 56
        Quote: Pavel Kanaev
        Yes, I always want to go there, but it never works out.

        That's what I want too.
        I make do with films and photos.

        Thank you for the article.
        1. +4
          27 September 2024 10: 56
          Thank you for your interest.
  3. +1
    27 September 2024 13: 55
    In principle, the assessment of the size of the army of the Moscow state is the most anticipated and most controversial part of the article.

    Initial data for the author's assessment:

    Previously, the method proposed by the researcher A. Lobin for calculating the framework number of military contingents in the first half of the 4th century was presented, based on the number of large commanders, by analogy with the well-documented Polotsk campaign of Ivan the Terrible (one large commander had 5-150 combat hundreds at hand, each of which had about XNUMX fighters).


    And then there is a very important point.

    For the campaign in question, the rank books tell us about 21 commanders.


    So, due to lack of data, we count "in the "big" voivodes" and extrapolate based on the Polotsk campaign. There is nothing wrong with this, in principle.

    Let's look at the painting of the Polotsk campaign
    http://krotov.info/acts/16/2/1563_polozk2.htm#12

    In all the regiments of the Polotsk campaign there were three military leaders, called "boyars and voivodes", even in the outfit. The exception is the ertaul, there are "2 boyars and voivodes". There is one more exception, but more on that later.

    Total 20 "boyars and voivodes" Let's note right away, 20 against 22 in the Kazan campaign. The Kazan army "in voivodes" is even "longer".
    Let me remind you that Pensky counted 45 thousand combatants for the Polotsk campaign.
    https://warspot.ru/11400-vzyatie-polotskoe-litovskie-zemli-sily-storon

    But for now, let's move on.

    According to the Plock list, under the command of the governors, data on the regiments:

    Big And all the boyar children will be in the big regiment 2929
    Right hand And all the boyar children with all the governors 1922
    The vanguard And all in the vanguard regiment with all the governors of the boyar children of the Moscow cities and
    Novgorod landowners, courtyards and townspeople 1900
    Left hand And all the boyar children in the left hand with all the governors 1900
    Guard in the guard regiment with all the commanders of the boyar children 1855
    The outfit of all along with all the governors 1433 (it is clear that we are talking again about children
    boyarskikh)

    Ertaul 1016

    Total 12 955

    The "big" voivode has 647 people - more than Lobin, but it doesn't seem to matter. What's the problem?

    And the fact is that these are not just fighters, but very specific boyar children or, sometimes, landowners who roughly correspond to them.
    The question immediately arises about the servants of the boyar children, among whom there were also combatants. There are no hints about them in the painting.
    Penskoy cites evidence from foreigners that for every such "boyar's son" there was an armed serf. Since we are talking about the time of Fyodor Ivanovich, such a ratio for the era of Ivan the Terrible seems too optimistic to him and he quite arbitrarily halves it. But here it is important to note that literally at the click of a button the military contingent increases by at least one and a half times.

    Moving on.
    The exception mentioned is:

    And all the children of the boyars of the Moscow cities and Novgorod landowners, and Pskov, and Toropetsk, and from the German cities, and Odoevtsy, and Peremyshlyanians will be with the Tsar and the Grand Duke 4965

    A "royal regiment" appears, in which there are more children of boyars and landowners than even in a large regiment.

    The Tsar's regiment has a special structure. There are no "big voivodes" in it. People of different ranks are listed together.
    With the Tsar and the Grand Duke in the regiment, Tsar Alexander, and boyars, courtiers and clerks 41 hours, stolniks, stewards and residents 244 hours, elected nobles 374 hours

    "Lobin's method" does not work here at all. The strongest part of the Russian army simply does not fall under it. It does not work to divide people into commanders

    Who else has the author of the article not mentioned from among the participants of the Kazan campaign?
    Of course, the Streltsy. They had already existed for two years at that time. It is very important to note that they are not mentioned in the Polotsk painting either. This is about its completeness.

    BUT even here the problem is not exhausted. The Tsar's regiment is given militias.

    And on September 23, the Tsar and Grand Duke ordered and commanded that the heads of the boyar children be sent to gather the foot soldiers:

    to Vyatka - Menshik Istlenyev, and he was ordered to gather 500 men and 25 arquebusiers, half the previous complement;

    to Balakhna - Molchan Semenov son of Mitkov, and was ordered to gather 50 men from Balakhna, 60 men from Yuryevets, 50 men from Koryakov and from Belogorod'e, and in total he was to gather 160 people, and gather half of the previous order;

    to Kostroma - Gavrila Levashov, and gather 100 people for him;

    in Galich - Ivan Sudokov, and was ordered to gather 100 people;


    and so on.

    And orders were given to them by the sovereign's order to select people on horses as saddlers, who would be good-looking and young and playful, good at shooting from bows and arquebuses, /L. 16 rev./ and able to walk on their mouths, and they all had mouths, and along with them they would have a saddle or a bow and arrow, and a spear or a javelin, and a hatchet.


    1165 fighters were gathered (precisely fighters, as can be seen from the description). They are not gathered by the voivodes, but by the selected children of the boyars. Again, it does not fit the methodology


    Conclusion. The method proposed by the author of the article with reference to Lobin looks obviously incomplete. In essence, it is not a very successful or even distorted attempt to start from the data of the Polotsk campaign. And if so, then on the one hand we have Pensky's estimate, made for the Moscow army of 45 thousand people in the Polotsk campaign and on the other hand the author's figure - 22 commanders of the Kazan campaign (against 20 Polotsk). In essence, there are no options except to focus on the number of the Polotsk army and for the Kazan campaign. And if so, then the author's estimate of 17 people looks clearly underestimated.
    1. +3
      27 September 2024 15: 03
      Pensky's estimate is clearly overstated. And this includes the boyars' children and their servants, of course. In this regard, Lobin and Dvurechensky are closer to the truth. Simply based on the demographic situation of the Russian state at that time. Moscow could not then forge a 50-thousand army for campaigns, since its maximum potential was at the beginning of Ivan the Terrible's reign. Just as the maximum estimate of Moscow's mobilization potential at the peak of Ivan the Terrible's reign of 100 is overstated. And that was after all his conquests.
      The Streltsy most likely did not take part in this campaign. Incidentally, Penskoy writes and argues about this in his "Ivan the Terrible's Janissaries" (M.2019). A.V. Chernov's position that the first Streltsy were formed with the coronation of Ivan the Terrible is long outdated. It is based on evidence from the same Kazan Chronicler, a semi-fantasy source. Around 1551, we can most likely speak of the appearance of the first Streltsy. Again, this is disclosed in detail in "Ivan the Terrible's Janissaries".
      Regarding the link to the number of governors - this is basically a very approximate calculation, that's what I'm writing. There was no fixed number of regiments, combat hundreds, that such and such governors had so many, another had so many. All this was floating. This is simply a possible reference point. In earlier times, this proportion should be significantly reduced.

      But the order of numbers is more or less realistic, again, taking into account the population of the state (about 5 million at the end of the era of Ivan the Terrible), risky agriculture and the need to keep at least a third of the entire mobilization potential on the Oka line from the Crimeans. Even 45 thousand in one campaign is already a wild fantasy. An adequate assessment of the Polotsk campaign is 28-30 thousand of all, both combatants and non-combatants, and this is the most monstrous event up until Alexei Mikhailovich.

      . Regarding the number of great voivodes in the Polotsk campaign, you have interested me. It seems to me that there is some confusion with the understanding of who is a great voivode and who is not. I will check this point. Moreover, you yourself say that there are 3 great voivodes there. And here there are two for the main regiments. Plus there are auxiliary groups, which were counted separately according to the same proportion. Which, again, is also a question: is this correct. According to the Polotsk Campaign, there were probably more voivodes. Again, I will clarify.
      In general, all these methods of calculation are imperfect. If you know of any alternative options, please share them.
      1. -1
        27 September 2024 18: 16
        I am aware of the incompleteness of the sources and it would never occur to me to demand an assessment with an accuracy of even plus or minus five thousand.

        Rejection of the Polotsk campaign is practically the only alternative, other methods are even worse. They tried to determine the total number of those displaced with an accuracy of plus or minus a bast shoe, and it is not clear what percentage of them could be attracted to the campaign. It turned out to be a double uncertainty.

        Therefore, purely methodically, the researcher, having given an assessment on the voivodes based on the Polotsk campaign, had to necessarily return to the comparison of the numbers of the two armies. Yes, the calculations and assessments of the Polotsk campaign are contradictory, but it was necessary to dwell on this in more detail, because this (the number of the army) is almost the key information in the article

        The Streltsy most likely did not take part in this campaign. Incidentally, Penskoy himself writes and argues about this in his "Ivan the Terrible's Janissaries" (M.2019).

        This is an interesting question and deserved a place in the article. I haven't read this book, the "journalistic" title confused me. Maybe in vain
        I am familiar with Pensky's opinion in an article from 2018
        Meanwhile, in private rank books, in the story about the Polotsk campaign, eight (or even nine) riflemen heads with their instruments are mentioned, which, with the “regular” number of riflemen of the order (instrument, article) of approximately 500 fighters, gives us about 4 thousand riflemen - if not more.


        On the sore subject or on the Polotsk campaign

        Pensky's assessment is clearly overstated. And this includes the boyars' children and their servants together, of course. In this regard, Lobin and Dvurechensky are closer to the truth.


        Is Dvurechensky the archaeologist who dug on Kulikovo Field? If so, he is a well-known "minimalist"

        According to Lobin

        Lobin's article with an assessment of the size of the Moscow army in the Polotsk campaign. Unfortunately, it is not copied properly, the assessments are given at the end.
        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/k-voprosu-o-chislennosti-vooruzhennyh-sil-rossiyskogo-gosudarstva-v-xvi-v/viewer

        Up to 45 thousand people. 5500 Tatars up to 5000 Cossacks 3-4 thousand stredtsy. 30 thousand nobles and their serfs. It is quite obvious that Lobin also believes that the servants are not included in the list. The assessment coincides with Pensky's assessment.
        Non-combatants - Lobin's estimate is 30-33 thousand with the important caveat that this does not mean that they were all gathered near Polotsk. They operated in an area of ​​170 km from Velikiye Luki.

        There are Krom's estimates, they are even higher. I will not cite them.

        There was no point in listing only boyars' children without servicemen in the ranks and desyatyany. These are not genealogies. They were compiled on the basis of operational military documents that were needed for reporting, military logistics, supplies, and planning. From such points of view, it does not matter at all whether it is a boyar's son or his serviceman.

        Unfortunately, it is not possible to use the list for supply or planning.
        1. No staff. There is not even a hint of non-combatants in the painting.
        2. No number of horses.
        Both of these categories need to be supplied.
        Only "fighters" are indicated, and specifically only those who were obliged to come are indicated. Those placed carried out personal service and could not put up a serf in their place. Only as an option to bring with them. The Vyatka people are obliged to give Menshik 525 people, they gave them, he brought them. Only those "obliged" are counted, serfs are an option (no one is obliged to bring them) and are not counted. This is simply my opinion. In principle, it does not matter, given that both Penskoy and Lobin also believe that combat serfs were not included in the list.

        Regarding the number of great commanders in the Polotsk campaign, you have interested me. It seems to me that there is some confusion there with the understanding of who is a great commander and who is not.


        In my opinion, everything is very simple there. Each "boyar and voevoda" named by regiment commands a certain number of boyar children and landowners. Without exception. Other voevodas are also mentioned, but they clearly cannot be considered "big". If you are interested, I will tell you in more detail.

        PS
        And here there are two on each main shelf.

        If possible, provide a link to the commanders of the Kazan campaign.
        1. +1
          27 September 2024 18: 38
          And why, in your opinion, were the lists compiled? Not just for the love of counting) There were separate lists where it was recorded how many servants a particular boyar's son brought, so that based on the Service Code he could be rewarded or fined (this is about 1 servant from 100 chety). And where are the lists by regiments, what other meaning could there have been in them? Just to count the boyar's children? They always counted for some reason.

          Here we must understand that the discharge books, like the ambassadorial ones, are files that were compiled post factum, after military campaigns. And they took information from operational documents, of course, which were purely utilitarian in nature. Another thing is that not everything was entered into the discharge books. Again, until the 60s of the XNUMXth century, only governors and some heads of sotsky were recorded, there were no special lists. In general, there was always very little information on assignments. The discharge books mainly included information on combatants, from documents on combatants. Staffs, horses - all this is not in the discharge books, of course. But, of course, there were separate inventories and operational documents for such resources and components, which were compiled for accounting and planning. Another thing is that all this did not end up in the discharge books, and little has survived. But something seems to have survived. This is exactly what Penskoy writes about in his “Military Affairs from Vasily the Dark to Alexei Mikhailovich,” where he talks about the standards for giving horses, etc.
          1. -1
            27 September 2024 18: 55
            Well, who's arguing? There were different discharge books. But the one we use for the Polotsk calculations was exactly like that. Both Lobin and Penskoy believe that it did not include servicemen. That's all.
            1. -1
              27 September 2024 19: 13
              PS Here the question arises: what is that very notebook, which is the source of all our calculations? In the narrow sense, it is not a list, although it contains a lot of data on the composition of the army. It is both a list and a chronicle at the same time. Can it be called a report? Probably it can. That is, it was clearly not used for office work or supplies or logistics

              There is clearly some special logic in the list of troops that has not received due attention.

              Here's an example

              And all the children of the boyars will be in the great regiment 2929 persons, except for Prince Vladimir Andreevich. /L. 27 rev./ And in the great regiment Prince Semyon, Prince Dmitriev son of Paletsky, and with him Prince Rai of the Tsar's court Shigalev with his comrades and their people 688 persons, and the Gorodets people Seit with his comrades 572 persons, gathered by Fyodor Dubensky, the Temnikov people Yenikei Prince with his comrades and their people 369 persons, gathered by Luka Rakov; and all the Tatars in the great regiment 1629 persons. /L. 28/ And in the great regiment of atamans and Cossacks 1295 persons.


              There is NO figure for Vladimir Andreevich's people. This is strange, I thought there was a gap here, but the note simply states "written above the line". This is despite the fact that other contingents were calculated scrupulously, up to 20 people.

              This is again to my guess about the people listed who had obligations. Vladimir Andreevich's people, obligations to Vladimir Andreevich or they are simply considered his servants. Then the logic of the list of troops becomes a little clearer - they are not listed as combat serfs of noble children are not listed

              This is just my guess and you don’t have to pay attention to it, perhaps there really is a gap there by chance in a very significant place.
              1. +1
                27 September 2024 19: 53
                Anything is possible (regarding the gap). It is difficult to say. But still, most researchers believe that the servicemen are also taken into account. Here, I repeat, it is also necessary to correlate with the realism and capabilities of the Russian state - sparsely populated, with very difficult agricultural conditions. Well, and with the peculiarities of mobilization. After all, in fact, more than 1,5 - 2 (maximum) percent of the population could not be thrown into the war at the time in question, otherwise there would not be enough people in agriculture. Filyushkin, at the end of the reign of Vasily III, based on the approximate volume of good land in relation to the territory and the norms of the Code (he believes that in fact its principles were already observed then), estimates the entire mobilization potential at about 50 thousand (both landowners and servicemen). And the situation should not have changed much for the campaign in question. Let's not forget about the Oka line. It is very doubtful that even 25 thousand could have been thrown into one campaign. But, again, any calculations here are partly a shot in the dark. So I also do not claim that Lobin's formula is the ultimate truth. More than that, the question is rather how much it is wrong, like other methods)
            2. +1
              27 September 2024 19: 40
              Lobin actually thinks that it did. He writes about it in his book on the Battle of Orsha. And Kurbatov thinks that it did.
              1. -1
                27 September 2024 19: 57
                Once again, a link to Lobin's article
                https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/k-voprosu-o-chislennosti-vooruzhennyh-sil-rossiyskogo-gosudarstva-v-xvi-v/viewer

                Page 30 absolutely clear
                Combat slaves, of course, were not included in the category.


                It also states that most historians believe that the serfs were not counted.
                1. +1
                  27 September 2024 22: 04
                  So Lobin changed his mind about the servicemen. In the book on Orsha, he takes them into account. And he also personally consulted B. Ilyushin, who dealt with the Kazan wars and with whom I am personally acquainted, who consulted me, precisely on this point and on the count. And again, he takes into account the servicemen. Plus the majority - who is that? Filyushkin thinks that they are counted, Kurbatov - too, Ilyushin - too. Dvurechensky, as far as I know, too. Malov - too. To be honest, I haven't read him, but I watched his speeches on Tactical Media. And there is still common sense. Firstly, the boyar children cited different numbers of servicemen - some 1, some half (if he has, for example, 50 chetey =)), and some 5. So how much should we multiply by? By 2, 3, 10? You can get to millions that way. Secondly, I repeat, there is no point in counting only the boyars' children without the servants. Why? Moreover, the servants were not distinguished in their combat qualities in general. The same horsemen of the local cavalry. It is important to know how many troops are actually at your disposal, what you can count on, etc. And not how many boyars' children there are. The position about multiplying by 2 (with the same success you can by 10) and not taking into account the servants has long been outdated. And
                2. +1
                  27 September 2024 22: 52
                  https://www.rulit.me/books/bitva-pod-orshej-8-sentyabrya-1514-goda-read-516697-11.html


                  This is exactly how Lobin discusses the number of contingents under Vasily III (and the reality had not changed much by 3).

                  "But if we talk about the first half of the 20th century, then the total number of all armed forces in this period could not exceed 000 - 30 (taking into account the detachments of vassals and patrimonial landowners, as well as infantry units of pishchalniks). Under Vasily III, Russia did not have such an extensive fund of "good land" from which it could field "numerous forces" that appeared in narrative sources (chronicles, annals, propaganda "flying leaflets")."

                  By 1550, neither the size of the Russian state had increased significantly, nor had the local system developed tenfold. Of course, it did not develop many times over.

                  Farther.
                  "In the 1510s–1530s, up to 20 people could take part in large campaigns in one main operational direction, and in individual theaters of military operations, deployed cavalry armies could number up to 000–10."

                  And about the Polotsk campaign, that a maximum of 25-30 together with the fighting serfs. And yes, he says that there were somewhere around 18 landowners, taking into account the fighting serfs - 000-25. That is, even taking into account the servants, of whom few could bring many, there were no 30. The highest indicator of participation of noble cavalry was achieved in the sovereign's Polotsk campaign of 45 - 1563 people.[18]

                  "Taking into account the size of the landholding, as well as the fact that the boyar children brought to the campaign far from the number of servants that was declared at the peripheral reviews, one can put forward the assumption of a 25-000 contingent of landed cavalry (together with combat serfs) in the Polotsk campaign." And his proportion on the example of the Polotsk campaign for
                  He calculates the Orsha battle taking into account the servicemen, adding them in. So, probably, these estimates are overstated.
                3. +1
                  27 September 2024 23: 03
                  And here, by the way, is Kurbatov's criticism of that very article by Lobin about the numbers. And precisely about the fact that the servicemen were taken into account, which, in general, in my opinion, elementary logic even suggests.

                  "Based on the principle proposed by the author himself of "working with all known documentary materials", I cannot immediately agree with his unfounded assertion that "combat serfs, of course, were not taken into account in the category" of this campaign. One might think that the governors at the beginning
                  campaign it was more important to find out the level of turnout of the boyar children (by “yeties” and “netyam”), and not to “sweep away” the real fighting strength of hundreds (as happened with the Cossack villages and
                  "people" of the Tatar and mountain princes).
                  In short, the essence of the problem that causes the main controversy is the following: should we accept the figures given in the “Record Book of the Polotsk Campaign” only as the number of boyar children, without taking into account their fighting slaves, or do we have before us a consolidated list of all the fighters sent to the regiments by one or another service “city” (without distinction of class affiliation)?

                  Here is a link to the critical article: https://slavica-petropolitana.spbu.ru/files/2009-1-2/08-Kurbatov.pdf
                  1. -1
                    27 September 2024 23: 37
                    Let's order.

                    Let me say right away that I have no intention whatsoever of discrediting you or your work, and I ask that you do not perceive what I am writing as an attack against you personally.
                    I will write for the third time that I am glad that you are writing here.

                    From the work of Lobin that you cited:
                    The highest level of participation of noble cavalry was achieved in the sovereign's Polotsk campaign of 1563 - 18 people.[000] Taking into account the size of the landholding, as well as the fact that the boyar children brought to the campaign far from the number of servants that was declared at the provincial reviews, one can assume that the contingent of landed cavalry (together with combat serfs) in the Polotsk campaign was 73 - 25.


                    So, I was right when I wrote that Lobin considers combat serfs separately from boyar children. When you wrote that Lobin allegedly changed his point of view, it turned out to be untrue.

                    Lobin writes about 30 thousand local cavalry, but this does not mean that he limits himself to this for the total number of troops in the Polotsk campaign. I have already cited the total number of Lobin's estimates - up to 45 thousand people

                    Once again, follow the link, page 33. You will find everything there.

                    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/k-voprosu-o-chislennosti-vooruzhennyh-sil-rossiyskogo-gosudarstva-v-xvi-v/viewer

                    When you wrote:

                    The Streltsy most likely did not take part in this campaign. Incidentally, Penskoy himself writes and argues about this in his "Ivan the Terrible's Janissaries" (M.2019).

                    This also turned out to be untrue.

                    This is what Pensky actually writes in this book
                    About the Kazan campaign
                    Perhaps the first description of the actions of the Streltsy during the siege, and quite detailed and detailed, remained in all sorts of stories, chronicles and discharges, telling about the siege of Kazan in 1552. At that time, in the composition of the sovereign's army, which besieged the Tatar capital, there were six Streltsy orders - all that were at the disposal of Ivan IV at that time. Discharge records speak of four articles - the heads of Ivan Cheremisinov, Grigory Zholobov, Fyodor Durasov and Matvey Rzhevsky


                    About the Polotsk campaign
                    Ivan the Terrible set out on his Polotsk campaign, which became, perhaps, the largest military undertaking of his reign. The majority of the Moscow streltsy took part in this campaign (the chronicle and the official accounts of the siege of Polotsk tell us the names of the streltsy heads - Ivan Golokhvastov, Vasily and Roman Pivov, Ivan Myachkov, Fyodor Bulgakov, Grigory Kaftyrev, Bogdan Boltin and Osa Guryev [635]), and, presumably, a considerable number of streltsy policemen and Cossacks.



                    Well, here's the climax.
                    Any supporter of the version that the Polotsk Campaign Notebook contains a complete list of combatants must answer a simple question. Where in this list are the Streltsy "buried"?
                    1. -1
                      27 September 2024 23: 50
                      When you wrote:

                      The Streltsy most likely did not take part in this campaign. Incidentally, Penskoy himself writes and argues about this in his "Ivan the Terrible's Janissaries" (M.2019).

                      This also turned out to be untrue.


                      I apologize, most likely they did not participate in the march of 1549-1550. A gross mistake on my part

                      The question remains at the climax
                    2. +1
                      28 September 2024 03: 22
                      You yourself cited the passage that 25-30 thousand is Lobin's maximum estimate according to Polotsky, with his servants. I cited the same quote))) Where is 45? Regarding the fact that he "APPARENTLY" changed his mind - yes, that's a gross lie, I beg your pardon.
                      By the way, I myself gave you this same quote about the Polotsk campaign later, from which it is clear that he really believes that the servicemen are not counted in the ranks. As you can see, even you can mix something up. Campaigns, for example. Well, I mixed something up with Lobin's position, I got confused. But the point is that when he applied this proportion of his and calculated the number of troops at Orsha by analogy with Polotsk (by the number of governors, the hundreds entrusted to them and the average number of people in hundreds), as far as I understand, when calculating the average, he added conditional servicemen. So, most likely, his estimates are overstated. And perhaps mine, too, accordingly) I'm not saying that it's right on target. But still, not a fantasy 50 thousand. Let's immediately add a million battle dragons to the mix))

                      As for the Streltsy, you answered it yourself. Judging by the heads indicated, there are somewhere between 4 and 4,5 thousand Streltsy. Kadira has an article on this topic, and he writes:
                      https://reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/Kadira.pdf?ysclid=m1leipdr0966455854

                      “In the “Notebook of the Polotsk Campaign” and in a number of other materials, 9 Streltsy heads are named. Let us list them: Ivan Golokhvastov, Vasily and Roman Pivovy, Ivan Myachkov, Fyodor Bulgakov, Grigory Kaftyrev, Budai (Bogdan) Boltin, Osa (Asan) Guryev and Temka (Timofey) Ignatiev [1, p. 354; 10, pp. 163–165; 11, pp. 215–217; 15, pp. 309, 311]. And if, in the 12 years that have passed since the establishment of the “elected riflemen,” the number of riflemen “devices” has not changed and still equals 500 fighters according to the staff (and most likely, this is how it was [21, p. 172]), then it turns out that about 4–4,5 thousand riflemen took part in the siege of Polotsk. This amounted to about 8,5% of the total number of troops assembled by Ivan the Terrible.” Add this to the 25 thousand.
                      I don't see in the fact that only heads are listed for the Streltsy in the register book, without per capita lists, any refutation of the fact that the boyar children are listed with the servicemen in the regiments. Firstly, the Streltsy are servicemen according to the instrument, who were in charge not of the Discharge, but of the Streltsy Prikaz. So, more detailed lists were probably kept by the Streltsy Prikaz. Only heads could be listed in the discharge books. Moreover, the Streltsy are, after all, a semblance of permanent units. And there was already a clear number, regular, regulated, a category of 500 people. So, perhaps, there was no need to list per capita there. To be honest, I didn't dig into the Streltsy separately. But, again, logic.
                      But with the mobilized army, regiments from the combat corporations of boyars and boyar children - it's a different matter. There, from one pine forest to another, whoever brings how much. Some 1,5 servants, some 10. Here we need a headcount fixation. Otherwise, we get a vinaigrette, it is unclear why it was counted. And again I cite Kurbatov's fragment on this topic.
                      "I cannot immediately agree with his unfounded assertion that "combat serfs, of course, were not taken into account in the category" of this campaign. One might think that the governors at the beginning
                      campaign it was more important to find out the level of turnout of the boyar children (by “yeties” and “netyam”), and not to “sweep away” the real fighting strength of hundreds (as happened with the Cossack villages and
                      "people" of the Tatar and mountain princes).
                      In short, the essence of the problem that causes the main controversy is the following: should we accept the figures given in the “Record Book of the Polotsk Campaign” only as the number of boyar children, without taking into account their fighting slaves, or do we have before us a consolidated list of all the fighters sent to the regiments by one or another service “city” (without distinction of class affiliation)?
                      As for discrediting, go ahead and discredit me if you want. Especially since there can never be too many comments, which is a plus for me. But what are you getting at? Should I agree with you? Well, I don't agree, what can I do? Common sense says otherwise, at least for these unfortunate servants.
                      1. 0
                        28 September 2024 09: 27
                        You yourself cited the passage that 25-30 thousand is Lobin's maximum estimate according to Polotsky, with his servants. I cited the same quote))) Where is 45?


                        Do you not follow links on principle? I attached a screenshot to close the topic. 45 and nothing else (more precisely, up to 45 according to Lobin) 30 thousand is only local cavalry.

                        “In the “Notebook of the Polotsk Campaign” and in a number of other materials, 9 riflemen are named.


                        The "Record Book" does not contain a single Streletsky head from those named below. There is no total number either.
                        "The Streletsky heads" are mentioned without details and are not mentioned in the part where the signature is given, only in the "combat report". There is no other information there.


                        I used this link, you can check it out
                        http://krotov.info/acts/16/2/1563_polozk2.htm

                        I found almost all the heads of the Streltsy in another document, the "Discharge Tale".
                        http://krotov.info/acts/16/2/1563_polozk.htm

                        Apparently there was some confusion.

                        As soon as the deliberate incompleteness of the Record Book is proven, all the arguments of the supporters of the version "they counted everyone there, took everyone into account" can be considered meaningless. And therefore, combat slaves must be added separately and in no other way)
                      2. +1
                        28 September 2024 10: 27
                        It is not a revelation that the Streltsy are not taken into account there. I actually agreed with this, you are breaking down an open door) All mobilized troops, combat corporations of boyar children and boyars are taken into account. Because the Discharge Prikaz was in charge of their accounting and the combat corporations were different, they brought different numbers of servicemen. So a clear account was needed so that there was no counting of boyar children just for the sake of counting. The goal is not to "measure in parrots". And the Streltsy are simply mentioned as heads, since they had a regular number, it is clear how many heads, how many orders, and in the order there are 500 Streltsy. Plus the Streltsy Prikaz took into account the Streltsy affairs in more detail. Where they are listed there, in the Notebook, the Discharge Tale, I do not remember, I did not dig separately for the Streltsy. But yes, 25-30 thousand boyar children with servicemen + 3,500-4000 Streltsy. As Kadira writes. I do not argue here. Another point is that many believe that these 25-30 thousand are an inflated estimate. Again, due to the addition of extra servants. Probably, that in general 25 thousand together with the archers. As for me, most likely it was so. But it is impossible to say for sure, there are many hypotheses and versions. But, again, common sense and understanding of the feudal and agricultural realities of that time personally incline me to more modest numbers, and not to the countless orcs of Sauron))))
                      3. 0
                        28 September 2024 11: 58
                        With the same success one can say that the discharge order checked precisely those personally obliged to serve, that is, those who were placed without servants. He has no need for servants, they have no service obligations.

                        And again there will be running in circles.
                      4. +2
                        28 September 2024 12: 34
                        Yes, the order does not need servants? And what about the fact that for bringing servants in excess of the norm according to the Service Code (more than 1 equipped servant from 100 quarters of good land) each boyar's son and nobleman was entitled to a reward from the treasury? And vice versa, for putting them below the norm, fines were due. Rewards were from the treasury, fines - to the treasury. So, servants were very important for accounting, at least for this reason - this is state money. If you reduce everything to the importance of pettifogging, denying that the real number was important for military purposes (again to Kurbatov, if you do not believe me), then even for reasons of pettifogging "ich poluletsets metters". We are entering a new circle))))
                      5. 0
                        28 September 2024 12: 38
                        Then it is logical to expect that such servants will be counted separately in order to immediately determine the total amount of additional fine payments.

                        By the way, on the third attempt some kind of discussion took place. laughing
                      6. +1
                        28 September 2024 12: 56
                        That's how it turned out from the beginning. It seems that no one resorts to swearing and insults, and that's good. And you also know that many landowners were penniless and could not even keep their pants up without help from the treasury. And since the time of Vasily III (and possibly earlier, since Ivan III, it's just that the sources mention it since Vasily) such penniless and land-poor people were paid a salary from the treasury. Not everyone, only those who were doing badly. So it was necessary to keep real statistics in order to understand who brought how much. Who needs a salary, who doesn't. And where to update the information on the capabilities of landowners in order to adjust the so-called desyatinas - documents where the records for salaries and so on were kept? From such operational information when collecting campaigns - how many people, servants each landowner actually brought. You can't do an "all-Russian census" of landowners every year - such censuses are a problem even today, and even more so then.
                        And if such calculations were conducted, what is the point then in entering incomplete data into the rank books post factum, only landowners, and doing unnecessary arithmetic operations? There is a complete picture, the number of servants is important. Yes, even after the fact, look, here there were so many of us, the results would be such and such.

                        Plus, I will never tire of repeating, what to multiply by: 2,3,5, 3, 30? And, again, unrealistically huge numbers are obtained if you multiply. The entire mobilization potential of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania during the Smoly War of Vasily III did not even reach XNUMX thousand. Why then did they butt heads with them with varying success, with such hordes?
        2. +2
          27 September 2024 19: 33
          Regarding the link to the voivodes. Voivodes by regiments. This is the discharge book of 1475 - 1598. https://drevlit.ru/docs/russia/XV/1460-1480/RK_1475_1598/text1.php?ysclid=m1kw775zkl365075258

          "A large regiment: Shigaley, Dmitry Fedorovich Belsky, Vladimir Ivanovich Vorotynsky. They were stationed on the Arsk field near Kazan, opposite the city. And they gathered with people in Murom.
          The advance regiment. Prince Pyotr Ivanovich Shuisky, Prince Vasily Fyodorovich Lopatin Telepnev Obolensky. They also stood opposite the city on the Arsk field.
          Right hand. Boyar Prince Oleksandr Borisovich Gorbatoy, Prince Vasily Semenovich Serebrenoy. stood opposite the city behind Kazanka (Kazan E.) on the meadow side, and gathered at Kostroma.
          Left hand. Prince Mikhailo Ivanovich Vorotynskoy and Boris Ivanovich Saltykov. they stood behind Kozanka (Kazan E.) on the Meadow (Lugovskaya E.) side opposite the city, and gathered in Yeroslavl.
          Guard regiment. boyar Prince Yuri Mikhailovich (no O.) Bulgakov Galitsyn and Prince Yuri Ivanovich Kashin. They stood opposite the city beyond Kozanka (Kazan E.) on the meadow staron along the Galician road, and got to Yuryev.
          Ertaul. Tours. Prince Dmitry Ivanovich Punkov Mikulinskaya and Ivan Fedorovich Karpov.
          Outfit. In addition, there were governors: boyar Vasilei Mikhailovich Yuryev and Vasilei Petrovich Borisov Borozdin, and (no O.) okolnichey Fedor Mikhailovich Nagova"
          9000 + 1000 (outfit, tours) purely near Kazan + 1000 Shigols and service Tatars. = 11

          On Bezhbolda - voivode O.) boyar Prince Ivan Ivanovich Pronskoy Turuntai and Prince Pyotr Semenovich Serebrenoy.
          On Ukren - Mikhailo Ivanov, son of Voronov of Valynskaya, and Nazarey Semenov, son of Gleb. Prince Fyodor, Prince Borisov, son of Ramodanovskaya, and Stepan Grigoriev, son of Sidarov.
          And along the Galician road to the abatis the governors, boyar Prince Ivan Ivanovich Pronskoy Turuntai and Vasily Dmitreyev, son Danilov, were sent.
          Total – 7x5x150 = 5250.
          Total: 11000 (Kazan) + 5250 (Bizbalda, Ukrene, etc.) = 16250
          Various commanders with their outfits and tours are indicated, but if you count them all, the number becomes unthinkable.

          Ivan Ivanovich Pronsky Turuntay is mentioned twice – to Ukrenska and along the Galician road to the abatis. This is probably a mistake.

          These are my rough sketches, the next article will go into more detail about auxiliary groups.
          1. 0
            27 September 2024 21: 37
            Some thoughts.

            Found the 1908 Discharge Book edited by Milyukov. The digitization is disgusting, but the data array is considerable, although it is very difficult to work with
            https://archive.org/stream/chteniavimperat00unkngoog/chteniavimperat00unkngoog_djvu.txt

            Any comments?
            It is very difficult to single out the commanders-generals of the campaign. They are constantly changing. The Tsar often shuffled the commanders

            The Tsar's Regiment. This is a reality, as in the Polotsk campaign. It should not be forgotten, although it is mentioned irregularly, but it is impossible to associate it with any regiment.

            how the king and the great prince went about his business and the land
            to Kazan, and went to Vladimir and Murom, and the governors
            the regiment ordered to go according to the first list, as they were in Kolomna, oprich
            guard regiment; and he ordered the guard regiment commanders to be with him
            in the regiment. And the people who were with them were ordered to be in Odoev, and
            The guard regiment was ordered to have the commanders from Murom: the boyar
            Prince Vasily Semenovich Serebryany and Semyon Vasilyevich She-
            Remetev.


            The Tsar transfers the commanders of the guard regiment to his regiment and appoints new ones

            Arrival to Kazan.

            And when the Tsar and the Great Prince came to Kazan, and stood by his
            regiment at Lake Kaban; and with the Tsar and the Grand Duke in the regiment
            his brother, Prince Vladimir Andreevich with his boyars and the boyars' children-
            skis.

            And all the paintings of the regiment with the Tsar and the Grand Duke at Ka-
            zani, august mtsa:

            in the larger regiment: Tsar Shigalei, and with Tsar Shigalei the Tsrva and
            Grand Duke Voivode, Boyar Prince Ivan Fedorovich Mstislov-
            and servant Prince Mikhail Ivanovich Vorotynsky. Yes, in the big
            to the regiment of princes Vladimir Andreevich boyar prince Yury Andre
            Evich P???ninskaya Obolenskaya with Prince Volodymerov's children of the boyars
            skis.

            in the advanced regiment of the governor: boyar Prince Ivan Ivanovich
            Pronskoy and Prince Dmitry Ivanovich Khilkov.

            in the right hand of the governor: boyar Prince Pyotr Mikhailovich Shche-
            Nyatev and Prince Ondrey Mikhailovich Kurbsky.

            in the left hand of the governor: Prince Dmitry Ivanovich Mikulinsky
            yes Dmitry Mikhailovich Pleshcheev.

            in the guard regiment of the governor: boyar prince Vasily Semenov-
            vich Serebryanoy and Semyon Vasilyevich Sheremetev.

            in Yartoulekh were: Prince Yuri Ivanovich Shemyakin Pronskoy and
            Prince Fyodor Ivanovich Troekurov.


            There are practically no matches with your list, except for Shigaley. Obviously, the lists refer to different times. It is completely unclear how to determine "great commanders" with such a turnover. By the way, Kurbsky is among the right-hand regiment commanders, which is confirmed by his notes.

            In September, the regiment commanders will be reshuffled again. Moreover, for the first time, the commanders (from the category of "boyars and voivodes") will have heads with people from the "tsar's and grand duke's" regiment. Five such reinforcement units are mentioned - two in the large, two in the front line, one in the guard. If very roughly the head commanded 1000 people, then we will get five thousand reinforcements from the tsar's regiment
            1. 0
              27 September 2024 23: 08
              .
              If very roughly the head commanded 1000 people, then we will get five thousand reinforcements from the royal regiment

              The last thing is removed - the head in the 16th century and the head in the 17th century and his subordinate contingent are different things.
            2. +1
              27 September 2024 23: 39
              No, this is your information about some other campaign. I took a record from the discharge book about this campaign, which has long been used in historiography by venerable researchers (S.Kh. Alishev, Zimin, etc.). I repeat the link: https://drevlit.ru/docs/russia/XV/1460-1480/RK_1475_1605/text1.php?ysclid=m1l6m1pzwx972273553
              It's hard to mix things up here. And in your entry, there's "August month". There it's actually about the campaign of 1552, not 1550. Maybe you and I have different campaigns in mind?))))
              1. 0
                27 September 2024 23: 52
                Exactly,
                Jumped to a familiar topic,

                I misled you, I apologize.
    2. +1
      27 September 2024 16: 07
      There was no point in listing only the sons of boyars without the servicemen in the ranks and desyatinas. These are not genealogies. They were compiled on the basis of military operational documents that were needed for reporting, military logistics, supplies, and planning. From such points of view, it does not matter at all whether it is a boyar's son or his serviceman. But the exact number of troops, which does not need to be multiplied or divided in order to plan based on this - this is important. Of course, they were listed together with the servicemen.
  4. 0
    5 October 2024 13: 45
    the dispute over the number of troops is easier and more rational to resolve taking into account the problem of controllability of regiments and units on the battlefield and comparing how it was solved in other armies ... so the horse tumen of the Mongolian army was not 10 thousand at all. but 5-6 thousand. by the way, the number of cavalry divisions in the 18-19th centuries and Napoleon and Kutuzov in the war of 1812 was also around this value. Napoleon really called them reserve cavalry corps, we also called them corps .... cavalry lancer and hussar regiments in the 18-19 and 20th centuries also had 1-1,5 thousand, Cossack regiments had 600-700 people ... cuirassier regiments were really 500-600 people - but they needed tall horses and strong people .... infantry regiments were from 2 thousand to 3,5 thousand, infantry battalions from 800 to 1000 people .... Roman legions also had about 4-5 thousand ... in the Russian imperial army in WWI, infantry regiments were just over 4 thousand ... in the Red Army, cavalry regiments were 1,5 thousand, rifle regiments were 2,5 thousand ... battalions in the KA were 600-800 people .... in the Russian imperial army in 1812 no more than 700-800 people and in WWI a little more than 1000 people... it's all about the controllability of regiments and units on the battlefield