T-80 tanks: gas turbine engine eats a lot of fuel - and the driver plays a big role in this

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T-80 tanks: gas turbine engine eats a lot of fuel - and the driver plays a big role in this


A lot depends on the experience of the driver-mechanic, because skillful driving tank — this is not only effective maneuvering on the terrain, successful overcoming of various obstacles and selection of optimal driving modes and routes, but also significant fuel savings. Especially if the tank engine tends to guzzle fuel like crazy.



Generally speaking, the T-80 family of tanks with a gas turbine engine are very controversial machines. So controversial that disputes about whether they are needed in the troops still arise today - almost 50 years after they were adopted for service. And the subject of these battles, completely saturated with mothballs, is one: high fuel consumption, exceeding the similar indicator of diesel tanks by half, or even several times.

It is this circumstance that is considered by opponents of the "eighties" as the main argument in favor of the harmfulness and uselessness of these tanks. In turn, supporters of the T-80 consider the gluttony of gas turbine engines as a necessary sacrifice in exchange for high power, good operational characteristics and a kind of friendliness to the driver, associated with the fact that the GTE forgives many mistakes when driving.

We will not take sides in this "conflict", but we will note: yes, T-80s are quite easy to operate, they handle off-road well and do not stall with or without reason, so it is somewhat easier for an inexperienced driver to drive them than a T-72 or T-64. But you have to pay for everything - and in this case, the engine makes up for the driver's inexperience in full with burned fuel.

The results of tests of T-80 tanks with GTD-1000T engines, published in 1980, characterize this situation very well. We will consider them.

Test


In order to test how much influence the driver's qualification has on the fuel efficiency of gas turbine engines, three drivers with different levels of experience driving T-80 tanks took part in the study.

The first is a third-class driver who has driven only 200 kilometers in cars of this type;

The second is a second-class driver with 1000 kilometers of tank driving experience.

The third is a first-class driver with six years of experience as a test driver at the factory proving ground.

All of them had to cover a certain distance on a dry, compacted dirt road (in summer) without significant climbs and descents. The number of turns per kilometer of the route varied between 17-25, and unevenness - 22-31. That is, practically ideal conditions in which it is possible to evaluate the dependence of fuel consumption on the driver's skill without a strong load on the engine.


The recording equipment used was the RTS-9 radio telemetry system, which was installed in the tank and collected information on fuel consumption, the speed of the power turbine, the second-stage turbocharger, and the driver's use of controls. All data was then processed on a computer.

So what are the results?


Firstly, of course, the drivers' experience affected the average speed of the tank on the above-mentioned route. For a less qualified driver-mechanic, it was 29 km/h over the entire testing period, while for a more experienced second-class driver it was 37,9 km/h, and for a professional it was 39,8 km/h. So, no matter how much they call the T-80 a high-speed and easy-to-drive "Mercedes" among other Soviet tanks, you have to know how to drive it well.

Secondly, the least experienced driver used the stopping brake 30-40% more when maneuvering on the highway than the first-class driver. At the same time, the duration of individual braking of the tank by the engine and the stopping brake, as well as the time the turning levers were in the engaged state for the less experienced test subject was twice as long as for the first-class driver.

More details on this in the table below. It shows the characteristics of the control actions of driver A (first class, who drove 200 km) and C (experienced test driver) at average speeds of 33.2 and 33.4 kilometers per hour, respectively.


RSA — adjustable nozzle apparatus. OT — stopping brake.

As for fuel consumption, the situation here is interesting, although quite expected.

As is known, a gas turbine engine can operate at the rotation speed of the power turbine (the torque from which is transmitted to the drive wheels of the tank) from maximum to zero. By the way, this is why people love the "eighties" - they do not stall if the gas turbine engine is in good condition. But this ability is also harmful, since it makes it difficult to choose the correct engine operating mode.

This is especially true when shifting from higher to lower gears, as it can cause a sharp increase in the rotation frequency of the power turbine, which can lead to engine failure. To avoid this as much as possible, drivers (especially inexperienced ones) are often forced to either avoid such shifts altogether or do them at low speed.

As a result, as tests showed, the engine under the control of an inexperienced driver operated at a higher rotation frequency of the power turbine than its more qualified colleagues.

The graph below shows the engine power usage as a function of the power turbine speed (n%). Driver A is the least experienced, B has 1000 km of driving experience, and C is a test driver.

It shows that Driver A (the least experienced of the participants) worked in turbine speed ranges from 60% (percentage of maximum speed) to maximum. Engine power was in the range from ~294 to ~70 kilowatts.

A similar picture is observed with fuel consumption. The graph with it is located below. It shows that with the same range of rotation frequency of the power turbine (from 60% to maximum), the engine of the tank of driver A eats up from 0.62 to almost one and a half kilograms of fuel per one kilowatt of power per hour, while the consumption of drivers B and C is almost half as much.



Final World


Graphs are graphs, but what is there in real terms?

The answer is that the average fuel consumption during the test for the least experienced driver was approximately 7.85 liters per kilometer. The average fuel consumption for the more experienced driver, who had driven a thousand kilometers, was 6.31 liters per kilometer, and for the professional test driver, 6.15 liters per kilometer.

If we take into account that this consumption will not change throughout the entire route, then a fuel reserve of 1800 liters (internal and external fuel tanks) will be enough for an inexperienced driver for about 230 kilometers, and for the most professional - for almost 300 kilometers. But this is ideal. In difficult driving conditions, the consumption will be even greater, as will the difference in this indicator for one or another driver.

Here, of course, one can reasonably object, because the tests were conducted more than forty years ago - now a lot has changed. Yes, many measures were taken to improve the fuel efficiency of tank gas turbine engines, but they did not fundamentally improve the situation, so the figures used in this material reflect a trend that is also characteristic of today's tanks.

This problem can only be completely solved by high-quality driver training and, most importantly, by introducing fully automated engine and transmission control systems.

Source:
"The influence of driver qualifications on the operation of a tank gas turbine engine" V.B. Zhurkin, V.T. Prikhodko, V.V. Smolin, et al.
240 comments
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  1. +7
    23 September 2024 04: 41
    300 km with extra tanks? Unpleasantly surprised
    1. +19
      23 September 2024 04: 51
      In reality it will be even less, because there is something called the maneuver coefficient, on average it is about 1,3, that is, it will be about two hundred kilometers of useful movement.

      But this is more than enough, in principle.
      The current doctrine no longer plans to rush to the English Channel.
      1. +8
        23 September 2024 06: 12
        In reality, it will be even less.
        That's right!
        But the article reveals an open secret. The skill of the mechanic - driver also affects the fuel consumption of a diesel engine...
        And the GTE is in the sky. A lot of work has been done with its use on a tank, it can be used in combat, but you can't jump above physics. It's not just the fuel consumption. There's also the price, and it starts in a minute and ten seconds, although it doesn't require warming up, you can't change position in an instant, and its throttle response is lower than that of a diesel of the same power. It takes a little time to fire up the eighty. My comrades once held a fun competition of training and combat mechanics. T-80 with T-80UD. So at first the diesel was slightly ahead, then the GTE caught up with it and came to the finish line a body ahead.
        1. +16
          23 September 2024 07: 21
          The T-80 is not a simple machine, but it is necessary. Yes, it is gluttonous, but in some cases it is better than a diesel, for example in the conditions of the North. And most importantly, the T-80 is still much better than the T-62 or T-54 or than nothing, and therefore, in the conditions of a shortage of equipment, including tanks, in our army, it is good that there is still a reserve from a more highly developed civilization and it is good that our leadership did not sell everything like the leadership of Ukraine.
          1. +2
            23 September 2024 08: 21
            Quote: ramzay21
            Yes, she is gluttonous ..........

            Specific fuel consumption of GTD-1250 --- 225 g/hp*h 1986
            ------------------------------------- V-92S2F --- 156 g/hp. *h 2017
            1. +4
              23 September 2024 10: 55
              Judging by the data provided, the specific fuel consumption of a gas turbine engine changes depending on the operating mode. Of course, a gas turbine engine fundamentally consumes more fuel than a diesel engine. You just need to understand whether you need a gas turbine engine or not and then don’t look at the consumption.
            2. +1
              23 September 2024 17: 49
              Do you think it is correct to compare data for 1986 and 2017? During this time, nothing has changed at all in terms of efficiency for both gas turbine engines and diesel engines?
              1. +2
                23 September 2024 17: 51
                Quote from shikin
                Do you think it is correct to compare data for 1986 and 2017?
                I don’t have any other, more accurate data.
                1. +1
                  23 September 2024 17: 54
                  Well, then why mislead? The efficiency of passenger planes has increased significantly during this time. And diesel engines probably have too.
                  1. +5
                    23 September 2024 17: 58
                    Quote from shikin
                    Well then why mislead?
                    There were no revolutions in these areas, so even these figures give an idea.
                    If I'm wrong, please correct me with specific numbers.
                    1. 0
                      23 September 2024 18: 04
                      I don't have any specific data either. And there were no revolutions. But I don't think that, for example, the same KAMAZ from 1986 and 2017 have the same fuel efficiency. And 30 years is a long time for equipment.
                      1. +2
                        23 September 2024 21: 02
                        Specifically, I can say that the 1986 KamAZ (4310) with a mechanical fuel injection pump and the 5350 KamAZ 2017 with an accumulator fuel system (eight) differ very slightly in consumption, and their write-off rate is the same.
                        True, in 2017 turbocharging appeared and the engine became more powerful.
                        But... The revolution, as noted, did not happen.
                        According to the laws of physics, a gas turbine engine cannot be equal in fuel consumption to a diesel engine when operating in variable modes typical of a tank engine.
                      2. +1
                        23 September 2024 21: 46
                        In optimal operating modes, the efficiency of the gas turbine engine and diesel do not differ much (though it also depends on the power), and in non-optimal modes, diesel will, of course, win. Much depends on the operating modes and transmission (which are different and also affect the efficiency). But still, it seems incorrect to me to compare the 1986 and 2017 models. There will certainly be a difference in favor of the diesel, but the numbers will most likely be different.
              2. 0
                25 September 2024 08: 12
                it is correct to compare data for 1986 and 2017
                You are a little confused.
                The article compares driver mechanics, not engines of different generations.
              3. +1
                27 September 2024 21: 07
                Don’t you think that it’s somewhat incorrect to consider the cost-effectiveness of military equipment?
          2. 0
            23 September 2024 21: 12
            The main thing in the North is to keep the batteries warm. In the North everything is crappy, but it starts - the same BTS somehow starts, which pull the same T80 if necessary.
            1. 0
              23 September 2024 21: 34
              Quote: Totor5
              The main thing in the North is to keep batteries warm.
              If they consider it vital, then the acid batteries on the northern tanks will be replaced with titanate ones (with corresponding adaptation of charging, etc.), and they have an operating temperature range from -40 to +55 °C; And in terms of capacity, with the same dimensions as acid batteries, they are much larger.
              1. -2
                23 September 2024 23: 25
                This sounds dubious of course and most importantly it is not clear what all these jokes are for.
                1. +1
                  24 September 2024 01: 21
                  Quote: Totor5
                  This sounds dubious of course and most importantly it is not clear what all these jokes are for.
                  What other options are there to keep tanks in combat readiness in the north during severe frosts?
                  T-80
                  1, Warm box for tanks is a very expensive option
                  2. Keep the batteries in a warm place, and in case of an alarm, bring them and install them in the tank, which is not at all fast.
                  3. Replace acid batteries with titanate.

                  In my opinion, the third option is the cheapest.

                  T-72-90 tanks can be started with air, but in any case, the coolant and oil must first be warmed up, which requires starting the heater, which operates from the same batteries.
                  1. 0
                    24 September 2024 02: 02
                    The heater can be powered by a wire from the garage.

                    The T80 boxes are cold. The T80 batteries are stored in the battery room or in the tank. But if in the tank, then in the North no one will guarantee that it will start.

                    Nobody will come up with new batteries, because now conscripts charge these batteries themselves and change the liquid in them.
        2. +13
          23 September 2024 07: 54
          I'll say it more broadly))) anyone who has driven a car knows that an experienced driver saves fuel, and the suspension, and the clutch, and the brake discs. So, I didn't see anything new, since I've been driving since 1993.
          1. man
            +11
            23 September 2024 08: 24
            Quote: TermNachTER
            I'll say it more broadly))) anyone who has driven a car knows that an experienced driver saves fuel, and the suspension, and the clutch, and the brake discs. So, I didn't see anything new, since I've been driving since 1993.

            Yep, the author made a brilliant discovery, having studied the course of the tests, he came to the mind-boggling conclusion that an experienced driver is better than an inexperienced one! Well, who would have thought?!
          2. +10
            23 September 2024 08: 51
            Termina)))tor, I fully support. I've been driving since 73. Almost everything depends on the driver. In the Union, drivers said that fuel consumption (or economy) depends on a ballpoint pen. That is, what the driver writes down in the waybill. But this is of course a scam, I had to manipulate the speedometer. I have a car with a gasoline engine, average consumption is about 7 liters per hundred km. One day I decided to check how economically I can drive. I got to ... 5 liters per hundred km. But honestly, this is torture and not driving. You can't step on the gas abruptly, brake as little as possible, try to coast. Besides, I only interfere with others on the road. God forbid such "economy". Drivers of tanks and trucks should naturally be taught to drive economically. Not only in theory, but also in practice.
            1. +4
              23 September 2024 09: 30
              I've gotten used to driving economically, as Goblin says: "Whoever understands life, is in no hurry"))). I've found out empirically that the optimal speed is 86 km/h (outside the city) - 6 liters of diesel fuel per 100. And I feel great)))
              1. -3
                23 September 2024 17: 59
                This is not only an envy of your understanding of haste!!
                Personal example - FV T5 2,5l 174hp speed 150km/h and at the same time consumption 7,5l/100km!
                Depends not only on the driver but also on the equipment.
                1. +1
                  23 September 2024 19: 08
                  Do you have a 6-speed gearbox? I have a 5-speed gearbox, which is the most economical mode for me. I think that with a 6-speed gearbox I would also drive more than a hundred.
            2. -1
              23 September 2024 21: 15
              My father drives downhill in neutral to save money. 5 liters is not the limit for him.
              1. +2
                24 September 2024 10: 32
                Totor 5, on modern cars it is a big mistake to turn off the speed from the mountain. If the engine suddenly stalls, the power steering will not work, as well as the power brakes. My computer on the car shows instantaneous fuel consumption and average. When driving downhill, with the speed turned off, the engine consumes fuel, but if the speed is on and the car is coasting, the consumption is 0. In addition, a diesel or gasoline engine plays a role, a diesel in any case consumes less.
                1. -2
                  25 September 2024 00: 14
                  Why would it stall? Well, if it stalls, you'll pull the handbrake, or at worst, on a jalopy.
                  1. +3
                    25 September 2024 10: 26
                    Playing with life, I can't say anything else.
                2. -1
                  25 September 2024 19: 47
                  When driving downhill, with the gear off, the engine consumes fuel, but if the gear is on and the car is coasting, the consumption is 0

                  Here everything depends on the mountain. If the mountain is steep and engine braking is required, then the gear should be engaged, if the descent is more gradual, then move in neutral (with good traction).
          3. +3
            23 September 2024 10: 56
            fact! When I started driving a car, for the first month on a VAZ 2107, the consumption was from 12 to 15 liters in the city, time passed and I began to be able to fit into 10.
            1. +4
              23 September 2024 12: 40
              Well, VAZ-2107 on a carburetor eats 10 liters and you don’t need to go to the granny.
              1. +2
                23 September 2024 13: 48
                At first I ate 15, but with experience I understood how to press the pedal
        3. +4
          23 September 2024 08: 09
          Quote: Alekseev
          And the GTD's place is in the sky.
          There were at least three diesel-powered variants of the T-80:
          - Object 219RD (with 2V-16-2 engine) Leningrad development
          - Object 478B [T-80UD "Birch", T-84] (6TD engine) Kharkov
          - Object-644 (with engine V-46-6) Omsk
        4. +2
          23 September 2024 22: 42
          Quote: Alekseev
          and it starts in a minute and ten seconds, although it does not require warming up, you can’t change the position in an instant

          For the sake of purity of the "experiment" - what is the diesel warm-up time?
          Why don't you point out the main attraction of the T-80, such as the loudness of the gas turbine engine, in combat conditions, especially when compared with a diesel engine? According to tankers, this significantly increases survivability when maneuvering.
    2. +2
      23 September 2024 05: 04
      Cruising on highway, km 350
      Cruising cross country, km 250
    3. +5
      23 September 2024 09: 43
      More specifically, it was like this. Yurga, December 1983, tests for complete fuel depletion, 3 vehicles each: T-80, T-72B, T-64. Vehicles are fully fueled, tanks are sealed. Vehicles move until the fuel is completely depleted. The average value for the three vehicles is taken. Result: T-80 247 km, T-72B 530 km, I don’t remember about the T-64 now. It was something like this.
    4. -1
      23 September 2024 21: 07
      I haven't seen these extra tanks. Probably because they are located slightly on the sides and cling to branches and walls.
  2. +10
    23 September 2024 05: 57
    Yeah, let's work on saving fuel on LBS during the war.
    1. +8
      23 September 2024 07: 21
      During the war we will be engaged in fuel economy


      Well, of course. After all, everyone knows that fuel in war gushes out from under the ground and tankers run around these fountains with buckets.

      Supplies, logistics, tanker columns - what is this? What nonsense.

      We fight in the Holy Spirit, for the Tsar and the Fatherland.
      1. +7
        23 September 2024 09: 38
        Saving fuel when the crew's life and the performance of a combat mission are at risk is not even stupidity, it's a crime. On the other hand, you need to properly operate the equipment entrusted to you. And this is not only saving fuel, but also checking the tracks once again - tightening them, and monitoring oil (technical fluid) leaks. A good driver always has a well-maintained vehicle.
        1. +3
          23 September 2024 13: 17
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Saving fuel when the lives of the crew and the fulfillment of a combat mission are at risk is not even stupidity, it’s a crime.

          So the execution of a combat mission itself depends on the availability of fuel. If a tank stops without fuel on the march, it will not complete its combat mission.
          1. +2
            23 September 2024 13: 39
            Well, it's not for nothing that when reports are sent "to the top", they write - there are 1,5 fuel tanks and 2,5 ammunition. To ensure that the tank does not stop on the march, the company commander should think, not the driver.
          2. +1
            27 September 2024 11: 26
            Quote: Alexey RA
            If a tank stops without fuel while on the march, it will not complete its combat mission.

            If it doesn't start quickly, it may not have time to escape from the attack. If it is detected earlier (due to an excessively noisy exhaust), the surprise attack may be excluded. No less important is the ability to retreat in a timely manner to another position (the T-80 can move in reverse, almost like forward (unlike diesel engines).
            Do you think it's a coincidence that NATO uses tank carriers (to move tanks quickly)?
            The T-80 is more suited to maneuver warfare.
    2. +3
      23 September 2024 07: 34
      Quote: RockerMan
      Yeah, let's work on saving fuel on LBS during the war.

      Fuel is the blood of war!
    3. +2
      23 September 2024 07: 48
      The success of any war depends primarily on the economy. The more wastefully the gold reserves are spent, the less chances of victory. The history of the Great Patriotic War confirms this.
    4. +4
      23 September 2024 13: 16
      Quote: RockerMan
      Yeah, let's work on saving fuel on LBS during the war.

      Let's do it. Because otherwise either the tanks will stop without fuel - like in the Manchurian operation, when the tank corps were worn down to companies in a week. Or we'll have to inflate the rear beyond all measure.

      The T-80 has a complicated relationship with the rear.
      According to the test results, the average fuel range during marches was (with main refueling / with additional barrels / taking into account 20% of the minimum reserve):
      for T-80 tanks - 278/338/270 km;
      for T-64A tanks - 305/400/320 km;
      for T-72 tanks - 322/430/344 km;
      for T-62 tanks - 301/427/341 km.
      © Khlopotov
      ...to complete a 80-hour march as part of a tank company over long distances, T-3B tanks require 5,5 special AC-375-4,5 high-capacity tanker trucks, while tanks with diesel engines require only one standard ATMZ-375-XNUMX fuel tanker.
    5. 0
      23 September 2024 21: 08
      Fuel tanker columns are an easy target. Just remember Kursk.
  3. +10
    23 September 2024 05: 59
    It's funny, in war you save a liter of fuel, you don't know how many days a tank will survive, in our helicopter an hour of flight is almost a ton, 15 liters per minute. That's why diesel exists, but it needs to be warmed up, put Webasto, and not warmed up by engine oil, and on small helicopters and airplanes, also put diesel with Webasto, TRD is damn complicated and expensive.
  4. -11
    23 September 2024 06: 00
    The conclusion is this.
    We had to think of 3 main tanks, they are also medium:
    T-64, which grew into T-80.
    T-72
    T-90.

    The reasons are clear: every small factory in the USSR wanted to be in business.
    1. IVZ
      +5
      23 September 2024 06: 18
      The reasons are clear: every small factory in the USSR wanted to be in business.
      The "factories" did not decide this themselves and their wishes and unwillingnesses were not tweeted to anyone. The orders came from the Ministry of Defense, and the Ministry of Defense sought to retain its suppliers, enterprises and personnel.
      1. +5
        23 September 2024 08: 33
        There was a lobby at the factories and at the design bureaus.
        1. IVZ
          +4
          23 September 2024 09: 02
          There was, is and will be a lobby at factories, design bureaus and the last official and not only in our country, but there was also reporting and justification for each decision back then. And without some justification for the decision, and they were made at meetings, they did not pass. The experience of the war taught the Ministry of Defense not to put all its eggs in one basket, so as not to depend on the loss of certain components. Moreover, at that time the T-64 and T-80 were little-studied promising areas that could be improved and developed. And minor annoyances with different tracks, machine gun and searchlight locations, etc. were probably planned to be eliminated in the future or simply to choose one tank model based on the results of operation. They did not have time.
          1. -6
            23 September 2024 09: 24
            War experience has shown that one tank in the corresponding class is needed.
          2. 0
            23 September 2024 21: 22
            Yeah, they didn't have time... Having released 10,000 T64s, which cost $50 billion in our money.
            1. IVZ
              +1
              23 September 2024 21: 35
              I agree, I can't understand the reasons. But it's unlikely to be explained by lobbying alone. Lobbyists are lobotomized for this. It's just that, as far as I remember, the 72nd was more primitive than the 64th. The 64th had better armor, the fire control system, and the ATGM system appeared earlier, and it was incompatible with the 72nd's ammunition stowage. The Svir appeared later.
              1. +1
                23 September 2024 23: 40
                Moreover, in the 1960s they made only 1,000 T64s - it would seem that they could stop.
                The bulk of the T64 was made when the T72 and T80 were already in production. And the T64 was made until 1987, until the T80UD was put on the assembly line in Kharkov.
                It is clear that due to the problems with the T80 on the gas turbine engine, the T64 could have been produced. But nothing prevented them from installing the FCS on the T72. In essence, the T90 is the T72 with a new turret and the FCS from the T80.

                In general, the 125mm gun and automatic loader could have been installed on the T62, there was even such a project that was not accepted into service for political reasons - a cheap T62 and a T64 nano tank. There was also a T62 on 6 rollers - in fact, it later became the T72. All this was rejected in favor of the T64. And when the T64 failed, they were forced to launch the T72 into production. But they did some magic and for some reason began to make new purchases of the T64B again. Lobbying is clearly visible here.

                Moreover, even the old T72B has better armor than the latest T64BV!
                We could have gotten a tank of the T90 level back in the early 1970s and it would have become a single tank. I think this is all because of the hairy hand of the Kharkov Central Committee, who wanted to produce a tank of their own design and, accordingly, get money for their plant, but they pulled out quite a bit. If we take into account that the T64 cost 5 million dollars in our money, then they pumped out at least 50 billion dollars into the production of the T64 - an unsuccessful tank, without a modernization reserve, which even in the form of the T64 Bulat becomes overweight and reduces its service life.

                In Kharkov, they produced both the T55 and T62 - nothing prevented them from producing the T62 with a fire control system and automatic fire control system, but apparently the shine of glory of the nano tank and the money ringing in the design bureau made them want to produce the T64.
                1. +1
                  24 September 2024 13: 56
                  Quote: Totor5
                  But nothing prevented them from installing a fire control system on the T72.
                  The development of protection for all tanks was carried out by the Research Institute of Steel, the electronic filling was made mainly by the Chelyabinsk SKB "Rotor" (KUV for T-64B and T-80B with guidance of missiles by radio beam, was created in the Nudelman Design Bureau, Moscow). In general, the filling of tanks was made all over the country, and what to put in a tank was decided not by tank manufacturers, but in Moscow, by a political decision.
                  1. -1
                    25 September 2024 00: 15
                    But this political decision depended on the degree of hairiness of the KB's hands.
      2. +3
        23 September 2024 13: 28
        Quote: IVZ
        The "factories" did not decide this themselves and their desires and undesirability were not tweeted to anyone.

        Mwa-ha-ha. laughing
        Do you remember the history of the T-72? What was UVZ ordered to produce by the Council of Ministers' decree? And what did the plant produce as a result? Most of our army is now fighting on a tank that officially should not have existed at all.
        The dictate of industry in the USSR is an objective reality. Take what they give you - there will be no otherIn the case of UVZ it was: Want a new tank? Rebuild the plant (cost is half of a new plant, time is several years) - or take what is made for the existing production.
        1. IVZ
          +2
          23 September 2024 13: 33
          Yes, I remember, but then the problems with the T-64 helped the enterprise and the solution was considered as a temporary measure until the shortcomings were eliminated. Although the "dictatorship of industry", or rather the objective reality of the technical equipment of enterprises, certainly took place.
          1. +3
            23 September 2024 13: 44
            Quote: IVZ
            The company was helped by problems with the T-64 and the solution was considered as a temporary measure until the shortcomings were eliminated.
            The T-64, not the T-62, was produced as a temporary tank until the T-72's shortcomings were corrected. The T-72 appeared after the plant was obliged to produce the T-64 tank.
            1. IVZ
              +2
              23 September 2024 13: 49
              Oops. Seriously? Yes, they tried to eliminate these shortcomings right up to decommissioning. However, unsuccessfully. It was precisely the operational problems of the 64 that allowed the 72nd to be pushed through.
              1. +2
                23 September 2024 14: 05
                Quote: IVZ
                It was the operational problems of the 64 that allowed the 72nd to be pushed through.
                The T-64 tank was tested at the UVZ proving grounds and cracks appeared in the tank's bottom. The T-64 has short torsion bars and is attached through lugs along the longitudinal axis in the center of the tank on the bottom. It was from these lugs that the cracks appeared on the bottom. Therefore, UVZ immediately rejected the T-64 chassis and installed the chassis from their previously proposed tank (Object 167) on their tank, and since the UVZ designers did not like the gun's loading mechanism (MZ) (it isolated the driver from the fighting compartment), they replaced it with their own automatic loader (AZ). And since the AZ, unlike the MZ of the T-64, was attached not to the turret, but to the bottom, the shape of the bottom was also changed, acquiring several stiffening ribs.
                167 object
    2. +3
      23 September 2024 13: 23
      Quote: Maxim G
      The conclusion is this.
      We had to think of 3 main tanks, they are also medium:
      T-64, which grew into T-80.
      T-72
      T-90.

      You have a mistake. T-64 and T-80 are two different tanks from two different factories. T-64 is Kharkov. And T-80 is Leningrad and later Omsk. In Kharkov, only diesel T-80s were made.
      So in fact, the USSR had four and a half basic MBTs: T-64 and two main modifications of T-80 in the first line. And T-72 with T-62 - in the second.

      But the T-90 is the "seventeenth modification of the T-72" © Postnikov. In fact, the commander-in-chief of the Ground Forces was right - at the development stage, the future T-90 was indeed called the T-72 with an additional letter index.
      So now the Russian Federation has two and a half basic MBTs - T-72/T-90 and T-80. Not right. We urgently need to add Armata to the zoo. smile
      1. 0
        23 September 2024 13: 50
        T-80 was developed on the basis of T-64A.
        1. +4
          23 September 2024 14: 10
          Quote: Maxim G
          T-80 was developed on the basis of T-64A.
          Yes, but from this T-64 basis, the T-80 only has the front part of the hull with its "neckline" in the area of ​​the driver-mechanic's observation devices (a weak area, a flaw that could not be corrected) and the gun loading mechanism (MZ). Everything else is of its own design.
          1. 0
            23 September 2024 14: 30
            That was not the point of the message.
            And the fact that there are 3 main/medium tanks in the country.
            1. +2
              23 September 2024 14: 36
              Quote: Maxim G
              That was not the point of the message.
              If the factories had followed the decree on the production of the T-64 exactly, then we would now have in service only one tank, and the most problematic of the three - the T-64, whose chassis does not really allow for adding either armor or power.
              Would it be better?
              1. 0
                23 September 2024 14: 56
                It's better to have one normal tank than a zoo tank.
    3. +1
      23 September 2024 21: 19
      The T55/62 was produced almost until the end of the 1980s.
  5. +3
    23 September 2024 06: 17
    This problem can only be completely solved by high-quality driver training and, most importantly, by introducing fully automated engine and transmission control systems.


    I was present at the demonstration of the “newest” tank in 1979 at the Bobochinsky training ground (p. Kamenka, 45th motorized rifle division, Leningrad Military District)... At that time, these tanks were under separate protection.
    I don't know what the "researchers" were investigating, but in "off-camera" conversations it was determined that expensive, technically complex equipment should not be operated by conscripts who lack practical skills and expertise. That is why warrant officers were the drivers of the missile launchers.
    Today, we continue to learn in practice how professionals differ from conscripts, the term of which our wise government has set for 1 year...
    They would set such a term of office for themselves.
    A high-class specialist was obtained after a two-year period, and then only in the last period of training...
    * * *
    There is no need to spare money on the maintenance of the army, so that it is not necessary to conduct SVO for several years. But this money must also be spent wisely.
    1. +2
      23 September 2024 13: 34
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Today, we continue to learn in practice how professionals differ from conscripts, the term of which our wise government has set for 1 year...

      Say thank you to the gravediggers of the furniture maker's reform. Who turned the preparation of the mobilization reserve in training units with subsequent gatherings of the assigned personnel (and the year-long mobilization reserve was originally the mobilization reserve) into service in the best traditions of the invincible and legendary. Because normal education is expensive and fraught with incidents for which one must bear responsibility.
    2. 0
      23 September 2024 21: 37
      Do you think 2 years of sweeping the parade ground and sculpting square snowdrifts will make a better professional than 1 year?
      I think the equipment should be operated by professionals on contract, and with a completed technical education. And conscripts should undergo a basic course in assaults, medics, etc., and for this, as practice shows, a few months are enough... again, judging by this war
  6. +10
    23 September 2024 06: 28
    My nephew is the commander of the 80, although he served his military service in the Strategic Missile Forces and the entire crew is mobile, the driver, by the way, served from the tank crew on the 72, so they don’t complain about the 80, although they have already changed 4 machines. Excellent equipment.
  7. +5
    23 September 2024 06: 49
    Unfortunately, the experience of the SVO is completely ignored. Where the consumption is not particularly important, but not even the dynamics, but the fact that the engine will not shut up from God knows what, not to mention hitting the tank, is much more important.
    1. -1
      23 September 2024 09: 46
      To be honest, I don't understand why a diesel engine would "shut up" faster than a gas turbine engine? They operate on the same principle - compression ignition. Both have fixed operating speeds - a regulator. If my sclerosis doesn't fail me, the diesel engine has 2700 rpm, while the gas turbine engine has more, of course. Torque is transmitted to the transmission via a shaft in both engines. What makes a gas turbine engine better?
      1. +3
        23 September 2024 11: 15
        Quote: TermNachTER
        To be honest, I don’t understand why a diesel engine would “shut up” faster than a gas turbine engine?
        Driving uphill, didn't shift to a lower gear in time - and it shuts up.
        We had a case when during the "scarp (ledge) on the rise" exercise the driver took his foot off the gas, and when the tank rolled back, he pressed the gas pedal. The engine (T-62 tank) started in the opposite direction (sucked air from the exhaust pipe, and exhausted through the air cleaner). In short, the tank was moving backwards in first gear. The driver figured out that in order to move forward, he engaged the reverse gear and thus reached the end of the training ground. The engine was ruined.
        1. 0
          23 September 2024 12: 44
          I can't understand - how did this happen? Fuel injection pump and timing - how can they work in the opposite direction? Cylinder firing order?
          1. 0
            23 September 2024 12: 51
            Quote: TermNachTER
            I can't understand - how did this happen? Fuel injection pump and timing - how can they work in the opposite direction? Cylinder firing order?
            Our instructor told us about this in tank training. He also said that the cassettes in the air cleaner had burned out. But an air cleaner is a trifle compared to a dead diesel engine. There was no reason to doubt his words.
            1. 0
              23 September 2024 12: 53
              I just can't imagine how it works in hardware? I understand that you can start a diesel engine from a tow, with 1st or 2nd gear still engaged. But in the opposite direction?
              1. 0
                23 September 2024 12: 59
                Quote: TermNachTER
                I understand that you can start a diesel engine from a tow, with 1st or 2nd gear still engaged. But in the opposite direction?
                When you hit a ledge on a rise, you can only see the sky in the triplexes and it seems that the tank could tip over on its back. First gear is engaged. If you take your foot off the gas (which is what the driver did out of fear), the tank will roll back, and since it is in first gear, the engine shaft will spin in the opposite direction. And at that moment, the mechanic steps on the gas.
        2. +1
          23 September 2024 21: 39
          All these disadvantages of the V12 will be removed by the GOP, steering wheel and automatic transmission.
          They've been promising for 20 years already!
      2. +5
        23 September 2024 11: 36
        What makes a gas turbine better?

        Not a tanker. But it seems to be a regular turboshaft engine like on a helicopter. And this is a separate turbocharger and a free turbine behind it, connected through an overrunning clutch to the gearbox. And then with the transmission. There is no mechanical connection between the turbocharger itself (what is actually the "engine", gas generator, call it what you want) and the free turbine and then the gearbox and tracks. Communication only through a gas stream. Jam the tracks - the turbocharger will continue to work, and will not stall. Simply the pump-regulator will take the engine to idle mode when the temperature rises. It is not afraid of severe frosts, it starts easily. But dust is dangerous for it, engines fail due to wear of the blades more often than due to resource.
        1. 0
          23 September 2024 12: 47
          Theoretically yes. But how will the compressor turbine behave if the free turbine is stalled? The gases exit the combustion chamber through the standing rotor?
          1. +2
            23 September 2024 12: 58
            So, the helicopter has a mode for leaving the engine at low throttle. One works, the second engine at low throttle is decoupled from the transmission via an overrunning clutch. Maybe they came up with something more clever on the tank to decouple the free turbine from the gearbox. Ask the tankers.
            1. +1
              23 September 2024 13: 01
              Well, with twin-engine helicopters, and almost all of them are twin-engine, it's clear. You turn off one engine, the second one continues to rotate the propeller through the gearbox. But a tank has one engine.
              1. 0
                23 September 2024 13: 03
                So they don't turn it off completely, but try to restart it first in such a situation. It often worked.
                1. 0
                  23 September 2024 13: 05
                  We are considering the option that the engine has died completely.
            2. 0
              23 September 2024 13: 07
              The nozzle apparatus even allows engine braking
            3. +1
              23 September 2024 21: 41
              There is no such thing on the tank, on the tank this leads to a major overhaul with attention to the old engine and installation of a new one as a whole, since it cannot be repaired.
        2. +3
          23 September 2024 16: 20
          Quote: dauria
          There is no mechanical connection between the turbocharger itself

          A worthy and detailed answer! Respect...
      3. 0
        23 September 2024 21: 57
        To be honest, I don’t understand why a diesel engine would “shut up” faster than a gas turbine engine?

        If you mean that it is impossible to simply shut down a gas turbine engine, then the question is not difficult.

        The thing is that the scheme there is as follows: expanding gases (fuel + air sucked in from outside) rotate the power turbine. The shaft of the rotating power turbine goes to the reduction gear, and from the gear there is distribution to the gearbox, then to the drive wheels. If the tank for some reason stops, the power turbine stops too, but the gases continue to pass through it and the engine runs. The turbine is free.
    2. +4
      23 September 2024 11: 01
      To keep the engine from stalling, you need to install an automatic transmission. This will greatly simplify the driver's job and eliminate the possibility of choosing the wrong gear. Are there any Western tanks with manual transmissions now? And the drivers there are trained professionals. Not conscripts!
      1. +1
        23 September 2024 18: 49
        I will add that there are domestic modifications of T72 and T90 with automatic transmission. I did not find any details about the transmission. I did not even find what type it is.
        1. +3
          23 September 2024 19: 16
          Quote: rait
          T72 and T90 with automatic. I couldn't find any details about the transmission.
          Robot
          Previously, GOP was offered. But the Ministry of Defense does not like to overpay.
        2. +1
          25 September 2024 00: 10
          Polish T72 - RT91 Hard and in general many people were offered different sets of Renk for sale
          1. 0
            25 September 2024 00: 19
            Quote: Totor5
            Polish T72 - RT91 Hard
            There was information that the engine overheats in a tank with this transmission.
            1. +1
              25 September 2024 01: 09
              I haven't seen it. But RT91 with such engines is only available somewhere in Asia. Another interesting thing here is that it shows that the standard T72 base is quite suitable for a monoblock. This is something that the T90 lacks greatly.
      2. +2
        23 September 2024 21: 44
        Hop, steering wheel and automatic transmission and the requirements for the driver's quality will immediately decrease. And steering at speed with levers is generally a joke, especially on the march ... Here they like to talk about the T80 as a racing tank.
        1. -1
          24 September 2024 09: 44
          hydrostatic transmission - not very reliable in my opinion
          1. +1
            25 September 2024 00: 07
            However, it is difficult to find a tank without it. And here everything is still the same

            2011 year
            As the laureate of the state prize for the development and implementation of the T-90 tank, former first deputy head of the main armored vehicle directorate of the Ministry of Defense, retired lieutenant general Yuri Kovalenko, told the Vzglyad newspaper, proposals to abandon the levers had been around for quite some time.
            "Such developments have been around for a long time," he said. "They just need to be implemented. There were no difficulties, all that was needed was desire. Apparently, the time has come."))))))))
            Yuri Kovalenko noted that the steering wheel will significantly simplify the driver's work and allow him to pay more attention to what he sees in front of the car.
            "Imagine that instead of a steering wheel, there are two levers on a car. You pull the right one towards you to turn right, the left one towards you to turn left, and you also need to change gears. Of course, the steering wheel makes things much easier," the expert said.
            1. 0
              25 September 2024 14: 25
              The general is being disingenuous. It’s not that simple. Hydraulic blocks on construction equipment break down quite often, so I’m not sure!
              1. 0
                25 September 2024 23: 56
                Maybe then BMP, BMD, Thor, back to the levers?
                1. 0
                  26 September 2024 11: 26
                  No, of course not, we need to develop good experience!
  8. +6
    23 September 2024 07: 01
    Have you tried automating the gearbox and engine control? Let the crew fight if it's a combat vehicle!
    1. +4
      23 September 2024 07: 25
      What a lip-roller, maybe you should also install a KAZ to cover the upper hemisphere from drones, instead of a barbecue with DZ?

      All this costs so much money, God forbid I have to sell someone’s superyacht or palace.

      They'll ride on canned 62s, and that'll do.
      1. man
        +1
        23 September 2024 08: 31
        Quote: Anatoly Shpalin
        What a lip-roller, maybe you should also install a KAZ to cover the upper hemisphere from drones, instead of a barbecue with DZ?

        All this costs so much money, God forbid I have to sell someone’s superyacht or palace.

        They'll ride on canned 62s, and that'll do.

        "The people who do not want to feed their army will feed someone else's"
    2. -1
      23 September 2024 09: 47
      Automatic transmission is not only a plus, but also a minus. Complexity of design and operation.
      1. +1
        23 September 2024 11: 03
        the control reliability increases, it seems like the automatic transmission cannot be broken.
        1. -3
          23 September 2024 12: 41
          But the automatic transmission requires more complex maintenance. Constant replacement of the filter and fluid in the torque converter.
          1. +2
            23 September 2024 13: 52
            on passenger cars, according to the regulations, this is every 60000 km, in reality, I drove a car in which they forgot to change it at 120000 and 180000 and I thought closer to 200000, there were minor problems but nothing more, the car drove and after changing the oil everything became fine. Volkswagen Polo, drove from 2012 to 2021. During this time, fuel consumption increased, at first the maximum range showed 940 km on a full tank, in 2021 only 860.
            How long does it take a tank to travel 60000 km?
            1. -1
              23 September 2024 13: 58
              EVERYTHING more complex is, in principle, less reliable.
              About automatic transmission in a passenger car: how many times, if not dozens of times, is the load on the tank? With all the consequences.
              1. +1
                24 September 2024 09: 29
                About 10 years ago, with the arrival of less qualified Turkish drivers, European road transport operators sharply increased their purchases of trucks with automatic transmissions, due to the greater reliability of automatic transmissions. A truck with a loaded trailer weighs 42 tons. Didn't you know that?
                1. 0
                  25 September 2024 20: 44
                  The tractor drives on roads. But the tank, escaping from shelling, has to rush through VERY rough terrain. Plus, if suddenly "flies in", even without penetration.
                  So, in reality, the calculated loads with similar mass are not comparable.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2024 11: 24
                    That is why Soviet MAZ 535 trucks had a torque converter, for ease of control and increased torque in difficult conditions!
                    1. 0
                      30 September 2024 14: 53
                      If MAZ-535 was designed for heavy conditions, then the tank should be considered SUPER-heavy.
                      1. 0
                        Today, 10: 41
                        I am amazed by your erudition, you know so many words. The torque converter doubles the torque at start-up....
            2. -1
              23 September 2024 15: 29
              It depends on your luck. There have been cases where skipping one maintenance has led to very sad consequences for the automatic transmission. Not to mention that car manufacturers force their customers to use consumables from certain manufacturers, usually not the cheapest ones, otherwise there will be no warranty.
              1. +1
                24 September 2024 09: 41
                I haven't had this. Why did the Americans put an automatic transmission on the Humvee? Because it's more reliable!
                1. -1
                  24 September 2024 11: 38
                  Americans had automatic transmissions on their armored vehicles back in WWII. It's more convenient for them, they're used to it. That doesn't mean it's better.
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2024 11: 46
                    I see. You have to drive a manual. That is, retrograde optimism does not allow you to accept the new - it was better before.
                    1. -1
                      24 September 2024 12: 39
                      I drive everything except aircraft and trains, but I like mechanics better.
                      1. 0
                        25 September 2024 14: 17
                        I have driven many passenger cars. In most cases, a manual transmission is more distracting from driving than an automatic. And so, of course, one likes a priest, another likes a priest's wife, and a third likes a priest's daughter.
                      2. 0
                        25 September 2024 14: 34
                        The manual transmission doesn't distract me from driving at all. I can tell from the sound of the engine and the car's behavior that I need to shift to another gear.
                      3. 0
                        26 September 2024 11: 11
                        congratulations. but besides the emotional criteria of "I like it" there are also rational ones.
                      4. 0
                        26 September 2024 12: 31
                        Rationally, a manual transmission is much better because it is simpler and therefore more reliable.
                      5. 0
                        26 September 2024 13: 19
                        Congratulations. I have exhausted the words that can be used in literary Russian.
                        that is, the experience of European transport companies is not an authority for you, you are a retrograde, sir.
                      6. 0
                        26 September 2024 13: 48
                        Why do I need the experience of European transport companies? There, the more expensive, the "cooler". The prices for cars do not correspond to reality.
                        I have been driving since 1993. I have driven everything from a bicycle to the Volgo-Balt, Volgo-Don, and Sormovsky motor ships. My experience is enough for me.
                      7. 0
                        27 September 2024 10: 32
                        Excellent! Congratulations. Smart people learn from other people's mistakes, but do you know who learns from their own? A very famous saying!
                      8. 0
                        27 September 2024 11: 19
                        And what are you - the ultimate truth?))) Do you know everything in the world? The opinion of the crowd is not the truth, it can be wrong. And the paid opinion of Europe is even more so. A car with an automatic transmission costs about 1,5 - 2 thousand euros more than with a manual + automatic transmission maintenance, every two years changing the fluid in the torque converter and filter. I think you can pay the media a little to earn more later.
                      9. 0
                        27 September 2024 13: 16
                        Well, you know better what's what.
                        I won’t say the starting price, but it seems like it’s not 2000 euros, but 10 times less.
                        change oil and filter not by year but after 60-80 thousand km, depending on how you drive.
                        Otherwise, everything is fine, let the Russian tank crews and drivers knead with a stick and the enemies press the buttons, of course.
                      10. 0
                        27 September 2024 14: 05
                        Moscow, "Automobile House" showroom. Opel - Combo, 2024. 1.6 petrol. Manual transmission - 1 thousand, automatic transmission - 794 thousand.
                      11. 0
                        27 September 2024 14: 12
                        The difference is 150, the equipment is the same? Although all the same, of course, the automatic is a bit more expensive
          2. +2
            23 September 2024 21: 47
            And also, the automatic transmission doesn't feel the same, men only drive manual... Bringing themselves to the brink
            1. -1
              23 September 2024 23: 45
              Those who drive a manual transmission will drive an automatic transmission. And vice versa? Also, in winter I brake the gearbox, it is very convenient on ice and on descents.
              1. 0
                23 September 2024 23: 49
                He who can love a man will love a woman...and vice versa?
              2. +2
                24 September 2024 09: 38
                Back in 1985, Mercedes was preparing to sell the new W140 car and conducted testing, installing both a manual and automatic transmission on the same car with the same engine, putting test drivers behind the wheel and sending them out onto the race track, 10000 drivers participated in the tests, each completed the qualifying laps on both the manual and automatic transmissions. Two drivers, Formula 1 racers, completed the laps better on the manual transmission, while the rest showed the best time on the automatic transmission. Mercedes does not install manual transmissions on cars with an engine capacity of more than 3 liters at all, and manual transmissions are available on order for the younger models.
                The magazine "Behind the Wheel" conducted tests around 1998-2001 on what is better in winter, automatic or manual, and you will be surprised - the automatic showed better results. You can brake with the engine even on an automatic, if there is a manual mode.
                1. -1
                  24 September 2024 11: 26
                  You might as well have given the Rolls-Royce as an example, for the sake of objectivity.
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2024 11: 44
                    "Rolls-Royce" with manual transmission? Never heard of it
  9. 0
    23 September 2024 07: 09
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Unfortunately, the experience of the SVO is completely ignored. Where the consumption is not particularly important, but not even the dynamics, but the fact that the engine will not shut up from God knows what, not to mention hitting the tank, is much more important.

    I wonder, what is the difference between the T-72 and T-80 in survivability in case of a hit? That is, which of them is easier to disable?
    1. +1
      23 September 2024 21: 48
      The T72B has better armor and the HE shells are lower.
  10. -3
    23 September 2024 07: 18
    "It wasn't about the reel, .... I was sitting in the cabin..."
    author, What about the article?
  11. +1
    23 September 2024 07: 19
    This problem can only be fully solved through high-quality driver training.
    Still, the engine needs to be optimized somehow so it doesn't consume so much. Plus for the article!
  12. +2
    23 September 2024 07: 20
    Drivers need to be trained properly, why put an inexperienced one behind the wheel? And then their technology is to blame. There is a lot of money in the country, and even more oil, there is no need to be stingy with it, do they fill it up out of their own pockets? A tank should perform its combat mission well, and not save on diesel fuel, don't confuse it with their weak fours. They resumed production and that's great.
    1. 0
      23 September 2024 09: 41
      It was said back in the Great Patriotic War that training of drivers would require no less than 30 engine hours after a theory course.
  13. +6
    23 September 2024 07: 46
    So controversial that disputes about whether they are needed in the troops still arise today - almost 50 years after they were adopted into service.
    The answer to this question is right before our eyes: the SVO happened - and the T-80 is back on the assembly line. And the T-80 is praised at the front.
    The article voiced a sober thought that the tank should be equipped with an automatic transmission, which will reduce the dependence on the driver's experience and save fuel and the engine.
    I came across information that when tanks move at high speeds, the fuel consumption of the T-80 is comparable to the T-72. I don’t know how true this is, since I have not seen any confirmation or refutation of this information.
    1. +5
      23 September 2024 08: 09
      The technology of diesel fuel production is the simplest. We extract and sell oil and we have a shitload of it. Therefore, our state should not care at all how much fuel it consumes, even if it is 3 times more. But if we buy it from another state like Lukoil and other oils, then that is a different matter. It is better to give up right away.
      1. +3
        23 September 2024 14: 01
        The "bottleneck" of the eighties: the fuel needs to be delivered TO THE TANK and refueled. Taking into account drone terrorism, the logistics of the LBS has become much more complicated((((((((((((
      2. 0
        23 September 2024 21: 50
        What about aviation kerosene?
    2. -1
      23 September 2024 08: 49
      Well, the automatic transmission leads to increased fuel consumption. I didn't look into it much, but the difference is 10-15 percent. One automatic transmission installation is not enough, you need electronics for all engine control. And this is expensive and the main issue is reliability.
      1. +1
        23 September 2024 11: 06
        not true. Cars with automatic transmissions now have lower fuel consumption than cars with manual transmissions, and there are not many cars where there is a choice between manual and automatic transmissions. Most powerful cars come with automatic transmissions without a choice.
        1. -1
          23 September 2024 12: 53
          Automatic transmission with a single engine management system. Tobisha very smart brains.
          1. +1
            23 September 2024 13: 54
            no brains, pure hydraulics, valves - everything is simple.
            1. 0
              23 September 2024 15: 13
              Can you give a specific example???
              As a fan of old Japanese cars and mechanics, I am apparently behind the times.
        2. +1
          23 September 2024 18: 52
          True, if we are talking about an automatic transmission with a torque converter. The torque converter greatly reduces efficiency.

          However, if we are talking about the so-called "robot", then everything is not so simple. There is no torque converter, mechanically the transmission is 90% identical to the manual transmission and its efficiency is the same.

          There are also more exotic options with the disconnection of the torque converter.
          1. +1
            24 September 2024 09: 40
            The transformer clutch lock has been installed since about 2000...
            and the robot is a complete piece of crap, they stopped installing it on Audis 5 years ago - it's not the same coat!
            1. +1
              25 September 2024 09: 44
              They do, but in most cases I know, the torque converter locks up only in a very specific operating mode. Most of the time, it is not locked up and eats up efficiency.

              Only in Honda's CVT it is locked most of the time. Or at least I don't know of any other such examples.

              The robot is a "complete crap" only in the eyes of conservative car owners. What can we talk about if real practice has shown the excellent qualities of even the ZF robot that AvtoVAZ installed? But the gearbox itself is from AvtoVAZ.

              But here it is worth considering that we are discussing the transmission of a tracked tank. And this is far from the same as the transmission of a passenger car.
              1. 0
                25 September 2024 14: 29
                Compare acceleration to 100 km/h and the maximum speed for those cars that can have a manual and automatic transmission, for example, a Volkswagen Polo - and tell me how much efficiency, in your opinion, the automatic transmission eats up.
                A variator is for cars with low power, definitely not for a tank.
                a robot on a tank - well, I don’t know, I stalled on the road with a robot, it upset me but didn’t kill me, but a tank can kill.
                1. 0
                  25 September 2024 14: 36
                  I stalled on the road while driving, it upset me but didn't kill me


                  I have a friend with a robotic Lada Granta. In our Far East, this is a scandalous purchase, to put it mildly. And I drove his Granta a little (it's interesting). It's 90% regular VAZ mechanics, 10% electronics from ZF.

                  It never stalled, neither he nor I noticed any "slowness", it felt like you were driving on a classic automatic transmission. And this is quite logical - if an 18-year-old citizen can be taught to squeeze the clutch and change gears, then a computer can do the same. And it will most likely do it better than the average driver, but of course worse than a professional.

                  Compare acceleration to 100 km/h and the maximum speed for those cars that can have a manual and automatic transmission, for example, a Volkswagen Polo - and tell me how much efficiency, in your opinion, the automatic transmission eats up.


                  This is an example in a vacuum. You need to take rather specific documents for a specific automatic transmission and specifically look at what is written in them.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2024 11: 20
                    A robot is bad, the VAG concern has already realized this and stopped installing a robot on Audi, but continues to install it on less expensive Volkswagen, Seat and Skoda.
                    Volkswagen Polo sedan 1.6.
                    automatic transmission acceleration to 100 -12.1 maximum speed 187 km/h consumption at 120 -7.9
                    manual transmission acceleration to 100 10.4 maximum speed 191 km per hour consumption at 120 -7.8
                    where do you think the critical loss of efficiency is?
                    1. 0
                      26 September 2024 13: 03
                      a robot is bad, VAG has already realized this and stopped installing robots on Audi


                      This is just an example of the conservatism of your views. Why is it bad? Because someone said it was bad.

                      where do you think the critical loss of efficiency is?


                      The first question is: where does this data come from?
                      1. 0
                        26 September 2024 13: 22
                        which ones?
                        data that robots are not installed on Audi? from the network.
                        data on the dynamics of the Volkswagen Polo? from the network
                      2. 0
                        26 September 2024 16: 50
                        data that robots are not installed on Audi? from the network.


                        Let's assume. But what does this have to do with the qualities of robotic gearboxes? Moreover, S-tronic on Audi is not just a robot, it is a preselective gearbox. It is fundamentally different from a manual transmission.

                        data on the dynamics of the Volkswagen Polo? from the network



                        Where exactly? There are many people writing a lot of things on the Internet.
      2. 0
        23 September 2024 11: 23
        Quote: garri-lin
        Well, the automatic transmission leads to increased fuel consumption.
        In old automatic transmissions the hydraulic clutch would constantly slip, in modern transmissions the clutch locks. The gears are always what is needed for the selected driving mode. Where does the increased consumption come from?
        1. 0
          23 September 2024 12: 55
          Statistics, however.
          Well, and so as not to offend the administration's opinion.
      3. +2
        23 September 2024 14: 52
        Quote: garri-lin
        Well, the automatic transmission leads to increased fuel consumption. I didn't look into it much, but the difference is 10-15 percent. One automatic transmission installation is not enough, you need electronics for all engine control. And this is expensive and the main issue is reliability.

        Regarding the fact that cars with automatic transmission have higher fuel consumption, that's true, but this mainly concerns driving on a straight road, but in the mountains or where you need to change gears often, there is almost no difference. And also (I myself drove a car with automatic transmission in the mountains) there, when climbing, you quickly catch up with even more powerful cars, but with manual transmission. They just don't have time to change gears as quickly as an automatic transmission. And therefore, manual transmission has higher fuel consumption due to the wrong gear or not changing at the optimal moment. In general, manual transmission and automatic transmission have almost the same fuel consumption in the mountains. The same is true for tanks: if a tank has an automatic transmission, then the fuel consumption on the ground is unlikely to differ from tanks with manual transmission, despite the higher efficiency of manual transmission. hi
        1. 0
          23 September 2024 15: 19
          If the tank has an automatic transmission, it must be very smart to work like that. And the downside of any automatic transmission is an incompetent driver who does not know how to work with gas. Most automatic transmissions really do not like a quick increase in revs. Actually, that's what the article is about.
          Just the T 80 automatic transmission won't save you. Paired with the very smart engine management brains, yes.
          Do you get my point???
          1. +1
            23 September 2024 16: 40
            Quote: garri-lin
            If the tank has an automatic transmission, it must be very smart to work like that. And the downside of any automatic transmission is an incompetent driver who does not know how to work with gas. Most automatic transmissions really do not like a quick increase in revs. Actually, that's what the article is about.
            Just the T 80 automatic transmission won't save you. Paired with the very smart engine management brains, yes.
            Do you get my point???

            Hi shooter, I don't know about other automatic transmissions, unfortunately I only drove and drive Mercedes with automatic transmission and Hyundai with automatic transmission laughing (even though my Mercedes was made in 2006) and how other cars with automatic transmission drive in general I don't know, but both cars didn't have any problem with a sharp increase in engine speed in principle. And the fact that the T-80 needs not only an automatic transmission but also a very well-designed engine computer, who argues about that! Although to be honest, even with a good automatic transmission and an excellent computer for the turbine, no one has canceled at least a good driver. This is generally a valid rule for all cars. hi
            1. -1
              23 September 2024 18: 30
              The smarter the filling, the more errors it can neutralize. Which can be observed in cars.
              But the more expensive and the more complicated the repair. And the higher the qualification of those who will repair all this. Or simply carry out preventive maintenance.
              I agree. A professional army with sophisticated equipment is good. With equipment that is no dumber than the one who operates it. But will the state be able to handle it???
            2. 0
              23 September 2024 18: 33
              And congratulations on the fact that everything is fine with the cars. Only all these issues have long been resolved there. The computer monitors everything.
  14. BAI
    +3
    23 September 2024 08: 36
    All drivers of any vehicle face similar results (that an inexperienced person consumes more fuel)
  15. +1
    23 September 2024 08: 43
    "...This problem can only be completely solved by high-quality driver training, and most importantly, by introducing fully automated engine and transmission control systems."

    Here is the main message of the article and the guide to action. But... Mossy generals are so afraid of EMP that they will not allow electronics on military vehicles. The Ministry of Defense, as a customer, does not have professionals capable of clearly formulating the technical requirements and cutting off dead-end thieving ideas. Our designers and factories could not even make visors for tanks in 3 years, let alone an automatic transmission. But it is precisely on a gas turbine engine that it is easiest to make an automatic transmission: the revolutions are gigantic, the efforts are comparatively small. However, there are also approaches to diesel engines that allow for the automation of the transmission simply and in the same dimensions as today.
  16. -1
    23 September 2024 09: 31
    All those who are "in the know" have been talking about this for a long time in every discussion about the gluttony of gas turbine engines in comparison with diesel engines, that a lot in this matter depends on the skills of the driver.
  17. -2
    23 September 2024 09: 39
    T-80 tanks: gas turbine engine eats a lot of fuel

    and what (?)
    In 2000 I sold additives for diesel fuel, but in fact it was like turning water into fuel
    we only need water - add "additive" and get diesel fuel
    tanks and infantry fighting vehicles carry 25-liter canisters or 15-kg tubes with additives
    enough for 5 refills, i.e. 2500 liters, and 2500 km of mileage
    1. +1
      23 September 2024 14: 05
      Added another additive and got wine?
      Are you by any chance Jesus?)
      1. +1
        23 September 2024 15: 10
        at the Moscow wine and vodka factory, by the way, they also make wine in about the same way
        and what did you expect with a wholesale price of 50 rubles per 0,5 liter?!
        1. +2
          24 September 2024 19: 31
          I try to avoid this kind of product.
          1. 0
            25 September 2024 09: 22
            the engine resource is being killed - but the military has its own regulations,
            It's like in the movie "9th Company": even though he "pissed himself, he completed the task"
  18. +1
    23 September 2024 09: 40
    What are you arguing about? You should study the consumption of the IS-6. The T-80 has a 1350 hp engine. And you are talking about 1000 hp.
  19. +1
    23 September 2024 11: 00
    Quote: Blacksmith 55
    I have a light car with a petrol engine, average consumption is about 7 liters per hundred km. One day I decided to check how economically I could drive. I got to... 5 liters per hundred km. But I honestly admit, this is torture and not driving.

    I support this. I have tried to drive "economically" myself, fortunately the trip computer shows instantaneous fuel consumption. But I think the savings are imaginary. Operating the engine at low speeds reduces its service life, so all fuel savings will be spent on premature repairs. And the driver's fatigue during "economical" driving is clearly higher. Economical driving should not be an end in itself. As a rule, a normal driver develops an optimal driving style with experience.
  20. +1
    23 September 2024 11: 24
    This problem can only be completely solved by high-quality driver training and, most importantly, by introducing fully automated engine and transmission control systems.
    This is the main thing
  21. +2
    23 September 2024 12: 26
    It's hard to stall on them

    It's not difficult, but impossible. Unless of course you "stick an umbrella into a gramophone". The engine of the eighty has a free power turbine. That is, there is a turbine that rotates the compressor and is NOT connected in ANY WAY to the actual movement of the tank. Its job is to supply the engine with air.
    Therefore, even if the tank hits a mountain head-on, the turbocharger will whistle until something in the engine burns out.
    This is also the reason for the engine's very comfortable behavior for the driver.
    As for fuel consumption, our tanks do not have a recuperator that allows using the residual heat of exhaust gases.
    The Americans, whose engine is based on a German tank gas turbine engine from the early 1940s, have a recuperator, so their fuel consumption is lower.
    But there is one tiny nuance here.
    The GTE itself is tiny, but the air supply and exhaust tracts, especially in the case of using a recuperator, are large. Therefore, using a GTE on tanks really has one advantage - no need for warming up and easy starting in frost.
    If we add the need to have larger fuel reserves, the advantages of a gas turbine engine become completely illusory, especially if we consider that all of this still needs to be armored.
    In fact, even on combat ships, if the speed requirements allow it, they try to install medium-speed diesel engines.
    As for the topic of the article, here is another discovery: it turns out that fuel consumption depends on the gasket! In any case, whether 230 or 300 km of power reserve. This is ridiculously little!
    1. 0
      23 September 2024 13: 33
      Quote: Grossvater
      If we add the need to have larger fuel reserves, the advantages of a gas turbine engine become completely illusory, especially if we consider that all of this still needs to be armored.


      Really? Well, how much more is the volume of reserved space in the T-80 compared to the T-72 or T-90? Considering that the gas turbine engine itself is smaller than a diesel engine with the same power.
      1. +3
        23 September 2024 13: 49
        Quote: Illanatol
        So how much more armored space does the T-80 have compared to the T-72 or T-90?
  22. +1
    23 September 2024 12: 27
    Quote: Zaurbek
    fully automated engine and transmission control systems.
    This is the main thing

    Yes!
  23. +1
    23 September 2024 12: 50
    Quote: realist
    not true. Cars with automatic transmissions now have lower fuel consumption than cars with manual transmissions, and there are not many cars where there is a choice between manual and automatic transmissions. Most powerful cars come with automatic transmissions without a choice.

    Here it is necessary to clarify, it depends on the number of gears of the automatic transmission, for example, I had a 4-speed automatic transmission (Grant on Jatco) and it was much more gluttonous than both a 6-speed automatic transmission and a manual transmission, but a 6-speed automatic transmission was already comparable in consumption with a manual transmission, but now I have an 8-speed automatic transmission and it beats both the previous 6-speed automatic transmissions and manual transmissions. I think the existing 10-speed automatic transmissions will beat my 8-speed automatic transmission in fuel consumption and will break away from the manual transmission into space. A classic example on this topic, the UAZ Patriot with a 6-speed automatic transmission consumes much less fuel than a manual transmission, the automatic transmission has more gears than the manual transmission, accordingly, the engine works in more favorable modes.
  24. 0
    23 September 2024 13: 26
    Quote: Anatoly Shpalin
    Well, of course. After all, everyone knows that fuel in war gushes out from under the ground and tankers run around these fountains with buckets.


    A gas turbine engine is omnivorous, but what about a diesel engine?
    Will we take this into account from a logistics point of view or not?

    By the way, what's going on with the overseas Abrams? They also have a gas turbine engine, don't they? Do they carry wells with them?
    In this conflict, whoever doesn’t have multi-kilometer forced marches, what are the problems with the gas turbine engine?
    1. +1
      23 September 2024 22: 06
      According to the memoirs of the Iraq wars, the Americans had quite a few problems with fuel for the Abrams. The Challenger showed itself better there. McGregor said that everything is fine in the Abrams, except for the gas turbine engine and that it is a pity that it does not have the Leopard engine.

      In addition, a gas turbine engine, especially one with cyclone cleaning like the T80 or even the T64, does not like dust and is designed for a specific fraction of dust in the southern regions of the USSR. In more southern deserts or deserts with a different fraction of dust, the engine will wear out more. And when overheating, the power limiter will also be triggered, which will artificially lower the temperature to avoid dust sintering inside the engine. This is a known problem with this type of gas turbine engine, which is why they say that the T80 is a tank for the North, and not because it is easier to start. They even suggested making a gas turbine engine like the Abrams with filters instead of a cyclone.

      Of course, you can fill the engine with anything, but how will this affect its resource?
      In World War I, during the Entente, in battles in the Arkhangelsk region, the planes were fueled with a mixture of different fuels, I forgot what it was called - the Caucasian mixture, perhaps. The engine was enough for 1 flight before major repairs.
  25. 0
    23 September 2024 13: 49
    I read it, however... But I still didn't understand the "intention" of the author who wrote this... It is possible that the article was ordered by Eduard Petrov from the magazine "Behind the Wheel" and "smoothly flowed" into VO... In general, the "problem" "raised" by the author has long been defined as being radically solvable through training, study and improvement of skills, whether with a tank, a dump truck or a Formula 1 racing car...
  26. +2
    23 September 2024 13: 54
    Quote: Illanatol
    By the way, what's going on with the overseas Abrams? They also have a gas turbine engine, don't they? Do they carry wells with them?

    Oh! Well, everything has been written and rewritten a million times!
    The Abrash has a gas turbine engine with a recuperator, designed by the German Neumann, the chief designer of General Electric, if I'm not mistaken, based on the German gas turbine engine of 1944. The Germans stuck it in the Panther in 44, thank God it didn't work out!
    The recuperator SIGNIFICANTLY, by 10-15 percent, reduces fuel consumption, but takes up space comparable to the engine itself. Not least because of this, the Abrams weighs almost 70 tons. Well, it is a big Abrams, there is where to pour kerosene.
  27. -1
    23 September 2024 13: 55
    Quote: Maxim G
    The reasons are clear: every small factory in the USSR wanted to be in business.


    The factories did not decide. Each tank had its own advantages and disadvantages. Taking into account the specific BZ, it was possible to choose the most suitable machine.
    Considering their total number and considerable unification of units, there are not that many.
  28. +2
    23 September 2024 14: 52
    I trained on the T-72 (Item 184), served as a platoon commander on the T-80. Of course, the eighty is "cooler", but I did not participate in the operation and repair - the factory workers, the men in checkered shirts from the factory, did not let us in wink The T-72 is repairable. But we were afraid to take two levers at once, like in the T-72, the engine would be finished! I don’t know, maybe they’ve solved this problem now? They were almost identical in terms of armament.
  29. 0
    23 September 2024 15: 12
    The T-80 tank is 2,7 times more cost-effective than the T-72B.
    One gas turbine engine costs as much as a whole T-72.

    Additionally, time, required for maintenance after 350 km of operation on the T-72B, corresponds to 200 km of operation for the T-64B and 100 km of operation for the T-80B. In other words, the maintenance volume of the T-72B is 3,5 times less than that of the T-80B, and 1,75 times less than that of the T-64B.

    Source: Kostenko Yu.P. "Tanks: tactics, technology, weapons".

    At the same time, the drone doesn’t care who it hits, it doesn’t matter... angry
  30. +1
    23 September 2024 15: 26
    And what about fuel alone? The Yankees' Abrams are even more gluttonous and capricious than our 280s. And which one starts better in the cold? Which has a built-in DZ? Which is more maneuverable and faster? And so on. Tell me, friends, how many kilometers does a tank travel in a real battle per day? 300, XNUMX? It's good if it's under a hundred, taking into account all the maneuvers. And the XNUMX, by the way, can fight without turning on the main engine, for this there is a small, so to speak, auxiliary one, to provide power supply to the entire system. Many factors need to be taken into account. But it is definitely needed in the Army. This is my personal opinion.
    1. 0
      23 September 2024 22: 11
      The T90 also has an auxiliary
  31. 0
    23 September 2024 18: 09
    The gas turbine engine consumes a lot of fuel, and the driver plays a significant role in this

    Here, it seems to me, a hybrid power plant would be very appropriate.
    Let the gas turbine engine operate in the most advantageous mode for the purpose of economic fuel consumption, and all acceleration and movement is carried out by the electric motor, powered by the power unit.
    Again, the gas turbine engine will no longer be needed with such power, and the electric motor does not increase in size much with power.
    If passenger cars are equipped with 1000 horsepower engines, here you can have a thousand horsepower per track, with two EDs. The gearbox is no longer needed and the driver's job is made easier, there are fewer distracting factors from driving.
    Well, this must of course be taken into account. what
    Again, if it will be possible to organize the "sneak" mode, on pure electric traction, silently and without "showing" the exhaust temperature. Everything is in favor. what
    1. +1
      23 September 2024 19: 23
      Quote: K-50
      Again, if it is possible to organize a “sneak” mode, on pure electric traction, silently and without “showing” the exhaust temperature.
      Where will the battery be located to pull a tracked vehicle weighing almost 50 tons, with a limited volume?
      1. 0
        23 September 2024 20: 34
        Quote: Bad_gr
        Where will the battery be located to pull a tracked vehicle weighing almost 50 tons, with a limited volume?

        If only there was a desire. "Armata" is how much bigger? And nothing, they made it and say it's the latest high-tech.
        So if the designer is considered, and there will be profit from the hybrid, then why not? The Germans tried 80 years ago, and with modern materials and design it will probably turn out better.
        1. +1
          23 September 2024 20: 41
          Quote: K-50
          The Germans tried 80 years ago,................
          Do you mean the electric transmission on the Ferdinand? That's not a hybrid at all. Or do you have information that he drove on batteries, without turning on the internal combustion engine?
          1. 0
            23 September 2024 21: 42
            Quote: Bad_gr
            You mean the electric transmission on the Ferdinand? That's not a hybrid at all.

            Well, there were no lithium-ion batteries back then. Now, nothing prevents them from repeating their idea at a new technical level.
  32. +3
    23 September 2024 20: 08
    We need to UNDERSTAND what a tank is designed for??? A tank is not designed to compete in Formula 1, not for truck drivers! A tank is designed to BREAK THRU the enemy's defenses! It wasn't fools who decided to RESTORE the production of these tanks at the plant in Omsk! I served on these tanks. The T-72 compared to the T-80 is just a collective farm tractor with a cannon! Crazy speed, as a cadet I easily reached 60 km per hour at the tank range! They said that the ensigns squeezed out 100 km. hour! And this is almost instantaneous! After all, remember the video of how our tank "Alyosha" alone fought a column of Bandera. So it was a T-80, it spun, turned without strain on the battlefield, by the way, they were given a NEW T-80 tank to replace the damaged one. After all, the crew didn't want to take ANOTHER "good" tank, which could travel many, many kilometers on one tank of gas!! They could travel a hundred meters and survive!
    In winter, when starting, no matter how cold it is, the T-80 is ready to move in 54 seconds, but starting a diesel engine is a real dance with tambourines.
    1. +1
      23 September 2024 22: 17
      There are no decisions on the production of T80, no need to invent. These are all the wishes of the plant director, who asks for money for new lines. They are only being remade from storage.

      There is no need to compare the old T72 780 hp and the new T90 with 1130 hp. And the GTD has 1250.
      But in fact, the most popular nato engine mtu Leopard has 1,500 hp. That's why we need a new powerful V12.
      1. +1
        23 September 2024 22: 53
        Quote: Totor5
        There are no decisions about the production of T80, no need to invent.
        At the moment, the production cycle for the release of new engines has been fully restored. And the T-80s are still being taken from the sites and overhauled with modernization to the level of the T-80 BVM.
        T-80 at the 61st armored repair plant in St. Petersburg, late 2010
        1. +1
          23 September 2024 23: 43
          I think that's what I said - there is no new production, there is modernization from old buildings.
          1. 0
            24 September 2024 01: 38
            Quote: Totor5
            I think that's what I said - there is no new production, there is modernization from old buildings.
            The engine is new, the tank's interior is new, the additional armor is new, and the hull, with its armor thickness, is not subject to wear (it would be stupid not to use old stocks).
            These tanks differ from completely new ones only in that the tank hull was not made today.
            Photo from production
            1. +1
              24 September 2024 02: 05
              The body is old and the number is old. It can't be called a tank from scratch.
        2. AVP
          +2
          24 September 2024 07: 52
          they'll finish off the old hulls and that's it, there's no point in keeping a tank zoo, especially since the 80 and 72/90 are not unified in many ways, unlike the 72/90 pair
    2. 0
      24 September 2024 16: 34
      On the T-80 we accelerated to 120
      1. 0
        29 September 2024 21: 45
        It's impossible, the limiter can't be unscrewed there and no one was allowed near the engine
  33. 0
    23 September 2024 20: 17
    But how many tanks in a combat situation will survive even two hundred kilometers of combat?
    They're not going to Dakar, are they?
  34. 0
    23 September 2024 23: 20
    I don't want to offend anyone (honestly), but it feels like I'm not reading the tank's performance characteristics. "How much fuel it will consume", "how fast it goes". It's like Fast and Furious with Vin Diesel. I think the main thing is how protected it is, how many of our enemies it will kill. And how long it will be able to do this without harming itself and its crew.
    1. 0
      24 September 2024 21: 02
      Slow and steady wins the race. There is such wisdom.
  35. AVP
    0
    24 September 2024 07: 49
    The soldiers never counted fuel - for them it was just an operational indicator.
  36. +1
    24 September 2024 08: 39
    Quote: Totor5

    Of course, you can fill the engine with anything, but how will this affect its resource?
    During World War I, during the Entente, in battles in the Arkhangelsk region, planes were fueled with a mixture of different fuels, I forgot what it was called - the Caucasian mixture, or something.


    Almost nothing. The gas turbine eats everything. Another thing is that the real engine power will be lower, mobility will suffer. The "Abrams" also have multi-fuel engines.
    Not "Caucasian", but "Kazan". They used low-octane fuel to which moonshine or industrial alcohol was added to increase the calorific value. A similar recipe was sometimes used in the Great Patriotic War. The internal combustion engine could withstand not one flight, but several.
    The Germans had a factory-made methanol injection system into the combustion chamber of their Messerschmitts. Yes, this also accelerated engine wear, but it increased power. Sometimes this is justified; during combat, they go to even greater lengths to gain an advantage.
  37. 0
    24 September 2024 08: 46
    Quote: Totor5
    But in fact, the most popular nato engine mtu Leopard has 1,500 hp. That's why we need a new powerful V12.


    You made me laugh. It's not just the engine power that matters, but the specific power - the number of horses per ton of tank weight. Domestic tanks have a consistently higher figure, so they are really more mobile on rough terrain.
    And the dimensions of the "leopard" engine (in the Germans together with the transmission unit) are much larger, and it also needs to be armored. This is how the tank's dimensions and weight grow.

    We don’t need anything, everything is already there, it has good performance indicators and is quite reliable, proven over decades of operation.
  38. -1
    24 September 2024 11: 21
    In a combat situation, the amount of fuel does not matter at all! There was enough fuel to carry out the combat mission - good!
  39. 0
    24 September 2024 13: 06
    Everyone knows that an experienced driver uses 30-40 percent less fuel than a "newbie". It doesn't matter what type of car it is: Zaporozhets, Rolls-Royce, T-80 or Abrams.
  40. +1
    24 September 2024 13: 25
    Quote: Grossvater
    The recuperator SIGNIFICANTLY, by 10-15 percent, reduces fuel consumption, but takes up space comparable to the engine itself. Not least because of this, the Abrams weighs almost 70 tons. Well, it is a big Abrams, there is where to pour kerosene.


    It's not that significant if the savings are only 10%, and this savings is offset by the increase in the overall mass of the tank. More volume that needs to be armored, more heavy armor. The additional mass will simply eat up almost all of this "savings".
    The gain is minimal, plus additional problems.

    But the main reason for the large mass of the Abrams, as well as its Western "brothers", is the 4th crew member, who also needs a lot of space to work as a live "automatic loader". Moreover, at a certain stage the commander also has to feed him shells from the second locker. They probably have a lot of fun performing such somersaults when moving over rough terrain. laughing
  41. +1
    24 September 2024 14: 41
    This question always surprises buyers of used expensive cars. How much fuel does a car consume? When you want a car with the desired qualities (comfort, speed, power, etc.), be ready to pay for it. Fuel consumption is not the most important indicator of technology, especially in a country with colossal energy reserves. Yes, it requires certain logistics, so build it! A modern army is an expensive pleasure! Be kind enough to pay! And so you can fight in tachankas (horse-drawn) and whine about the lack of hay, or what is held in high esteem by ungulates?
  42. +2
    24 September 2024 16: 29
    The author also forgot to say that the turbine, in comparison with the diesel, has a fantastic engine life, weighs less, takes up such a precious smaller volume inside the tank, and is attached with just a few bolts. For example, replacing a diesel engine on a tank requires factory conditions, but there were cases when in the Caucasus, next to a nearby battle, a damaged turbine was replaced by the crew in 45 minutes!!! The author also did not say that in the cold, the turbine starts easily and almost immediately produces maximum power. There are many more advantages of a turbine over a diesel. But I think I named all the main ones.
    1. AVP
      0
      24 September 2024 20: 54
      The turbine itself may be smaller, but if you count all the fuel equipment and tanks, it's bigger. I won't say that the unit can be replaced, but it's impossible to repair the turbine either in the field or in a repair shop - only factory repairs. Any collective farmer can repair a tank diesel engine if he has at least partially straight hands.
      1. 0
        24 September 2024 20: 59
        And what about speed? I knew mechanics - drivers who accelerated to 128 km per hour. And the suspension on the T-80 is better
        1. AVP
          0
          25 September 2024 22: 46
          Why does a tank need such speed? With its mass, it is already an unguided projectile. Where is it used?
          1. 0
            26 September 2024 08: 28
            Tankers have a wisdom written in blood: the slower you go, the less you get there.
            1. AVP
              0
              26 September 2024 14: 26
              I ask again - why does a tank need to accelerate to a speed of 128 km/h? Or even 90. Where and when was this used in combat?
              1. 0
                26 September 2024 18: 01
                During the shelling, open the hatch and ask the enemy - why do you need speed?
                1. AVP
                  0
                  26 September 2024 18: 07
                  Well, that is, there was no answer. Just stories over a glass of vodka about true stories that it is impossible to remain silent about.
                  1. 0
                    26 September 2024 18: 13
                    Especially for the infantry I inform - the motto of tank troops is speed, maneuver, fire. High speed is the result of a powerful engine, excellent suspension and excellent cross-country ability. All this will give in battle an additional fraction of a second to dodge enemy fire, maneuver, catch up and hit targets.
              2. 0
                29 September 2024 21: 52
                Well, this was put down in the 70s, there is no need to judge the past from the standpoint of today.
                Quote: AVP
                Well, this was put down in the 70s, there is no need to judge the past from the standpoint of today.

                Well, this was invented in the 70s, there is no need to judge the past from the standpoint of today.
                1. 0
                  30 September 2024 08: 53
                  From today's perspective, there are plenty of 'experts' who will prove to you that tanks are redundant, useless and harmful, that they are dinosaurs of the past. Which does not prevent tanks from being successfully used in today's realities.
  43. +1
    25 September 2024 08: 50
    Cruising range could be considered in the USSR, when the task was to go through Europe like a knife through butter. In relation to the SVO, something completely different is required from the machine. And here the GTE is very good.
  44. 0
    25 September 2024 18: 44
    Like, the economy should be economical? - you have to think of saving fuel for a tank - maybe they shouldn't drive at all?
  45. 0
    26 September 2024 01: 16
    The point of the article is not very clear. Turbine engines have come a long way in increasing efficiency and service life in aircraft during this time, we just need to transfer this experience to tanks. And not compare the prospects of an engine that is already half a century old. When a new engine appears, then we'll talk.
  46. 0
    26 September 2024 09: 31
    As long as NATO has ABRAMS in service, Russia does not need to argue and worry about the future of the T-80
  47. 0
    26 September 2024 11: 37
    Driver skill and fuel consumption - this applies to any vehicle, from a mechanical excavator to a jet fighter.
  48. 0
    29 September 2024 22: 06
    Quote: Sancho da Vinca
    I trained on the T-72 (Item 184), served as a platoon commander on the T-80. Of course, the eighty is "cooler", but I did not participate in the operation and repair - the factory workers, the men in checkered shirts from the factory, did not let us in wink The T-72 is repairable. But we were afraid to take two levers at once, like in the T-72, the engine would be finished! I don’t know, maybe they’ve solved this problem now? They were almost identical in terms of armament.

    Strange, you definitely dealt with the 80, what were you afraid of there? I tried many times to go uphill from a standstill at full speed, it turns out to be a great jump and about the fact that the engine did not know the end, thanks for telling me. Served in a tank regiment in 84-86 Germany, only 80 tanks (125 pcs.)
  49. 0
    30 September 2024 07: 46
    Quote: Vova Bondarenko
    As long as NATO has ABRAMS in service, Russia does not need to argue and worry about the future of the T-80


    For some reason, this principle does not work with the Leopard (and, accordingly, the 1200 hp diesel and the GOP in a single block).

    Rather, it is a matter of the peculiarities of the Russian national character: we love to suffer and do everything through ourselves and with anguish where everything can be done gradually and systematically.
    Plus, "what about the enemies, do they really know how indifferent their opinion is to me?!"
  50. 0
    Yesterday, 09: 57
    The T-80 is a great machine. And regarding the fuel reserve, there is Russian Federation Patent #2757940 "Combined device for self-extraction of a vehicle and increasing the power reserve", which equalizes the mileage of a young driver with the most experienced. We need to implement innovations like in China, which took first place in the world by its 75th anniversary.