Expedition to the Ancestors. Ziggurat – One of the Ways to Reach the Sky

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Expedition to the Ancestors. Ziggurat – One of the Ways to Reach the Sky
Layout of the ziggurat stories Ancient World for 5th Grade Schoolchildren. Photo and Author's Work


And they said:
let's build ourselves a city and a tower,
up to the sky,
and make a name for ourselves,
before we scatter
across the face of the whole earth.

Genesis 11:4

People and culture. At all times, people have turned their eyes to the sky and tried to understand what it is. Why does it rain and snow, why is it sometimes black, sometimes blue, and what are those lights on it that flicker in the dark, but for some reason are not visible during the day?



And... apparently, striving for the heavens, they began to conduct their religious cults on high ground, and where there were none, they began to build semblances of mountains and hills.

In ancient Mesopotamia, these were ziggurats (from the Akkadian word sigguratu – “summit”, including “mountain summit”) – which were multi-layered religious structures. They were also built in Elam, and this was a typical religious building in Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Elamite architecture.


Hypothetical reconstruction of the ziggurat in Urem

In its design, a ziggurat is a stepped pyramid, and this is precisely how it differs from the Egyptian pyramids. There, however, stepped pyramids were also built, and they appeared even earlier than smooth-walled ones, but it was impossible to walk on their ledges, while ziggurats were originally created so that one could climb them and enter the temple built on top.


Another version of the reconstruction of the ziggurat in Ur. Beautiful! But it would be very difficult to make one. For example, I thought about it and did not dare…

The Sumerians had three-story ziggurats. The Babylonians had seven-step ziggurats. Each step or terrace was painted in different colors and connected either by stairs or ramps, and the walls were necessarily divided by rectangular niches.

It is believed that the Sumerian ziggurat terraces could have been used for planting, that is, they were also decorated with greenery, which, however, required regular watering.


Another fundamental model of the ziggurat from the Pergamon Museum in Berlin

The funniest thing is that there are still debates about what they were built for. Pioneers of ancient Mesopotamian archeology believed that ziggurats were observatories or towers that served as shelter from the heat and mosquitoes for the priests of the god Bel.

It is clear that the cult nature of such buildings is obvious, and there is no need to doubt it. But how exactly the ziggurats served cult purposes is unclear. There are no tombs inside. But it is known that they were built on the sites of more ancient elevated structures dating back to the Ubaid, Uruk and proto-literate periods of Mesopotamian history.


Ruins of the ziggurat in Uruk

There is also a point of view that the Sumerians first lived in the mountains, and there on the mountain peaks they worshiped their gods. And then they moved to the Mesopotamian lowland and, missing the mountains, began to build their analogues.

A more prosaic explanation for such construction: the rise of the deity. After all, the more difficult the road to the god or the temple, the more significant it is in the eyes of the laity. In any case, the ziggurat is nothing more than a bridge between earth and heaven, and a place where all divine rituals (or almost all) took place in front of the people.


Partially restored ruins of the ziggurat at Ur


And this is how it looked before restoration...

There is practically no stone in Mestopotami. But there is a lot of clay. Therefore, ziggurats were first built from adobe bricks and reinforced with layers of reeds, while on the outside this clay-reed hill was covered with baked bricks. It is clear that rains and winds could not help but damage these structures, so they were regularly repaired, which made them taller and larger in size.

Again, the Sumerians had three steps for a reason. This is a symbol of the supreme trinity of their pantheon - the god of air Enlil, the god of waters Enki and the god of sky Anu. But the Babylonian ziggurats were built with seven steps, according to the number of planets known to the Babylonians, and were painted in their symbolic colors.

The last efforts to build ziggurats took place in Mesopotamia as early as the 6th century BC, that is, at the end of the Neo-Babylonian period. But they were repaired and renovated throughout the ancient history of this region.

It is also believed that the place in the Bible where it talks about the Tower of Babel "as high as the heavens" was inspired by the Mesopotamian ziggurats. And this is quite possible, because they made a very strong impression on people then, and even now their ruins are impressive.

Ziggurats have survived to this day in Iraq (in the ancient cities of Borsippa, Babylon, Dur-Sharrukin, all 1st millennium BC) and in Iran (in the Chogha-Zanbil settlement, 2nd millennium BC).


Ziggurat of Etemenanki. Hypothetical facade

One of the most impressive is the Etemenanki ziggurat ("House of the Foundation of Heaven and Earth") - a ziggurat in ancient Babylon, which is considered the prototype of the Tower of Babel. When exactly its construction began is not established, but under King Hammurabi (1792-1750 BC) its tower already existed. Then it was repaired many times, and the last time during the Neo-Babylonian Empire, the builders turned this ziggurat into the tallest building in ancient Babylon. It was dedicated to the supreme god Marduk.


Another ziggurat in Ur. In fact, it is a model. But making one, especially with miniature figures of people, would be a very difficult task!

It is assumed that the height of Etemenanki was 91 meters. Today, only the site of the ziggurat has been identified, but nothing remains of it. In 331 BC, Alexander the Great ordered it to be dismantled for subsequent reconstruction, but his death prevented this from being done. It was finally destroyed by order of the superstitious king Antiochus I, who tripped somewhere there while making a sacrifice.

However, a theatre was built from its bricks, so the Greeks and other “citizens” of the kingdom of Antiochus only benefited from this.

As for the cult and architectural identity, then... the relatives of the ziggurats of Mesopotamia are the step pyramids of Mesoamerica. As in Mesopotamia, the Indian "ziggurats" were built by different peoples, but using the same technology, as well as in the same architectural style, and on their upper platforms stood temple structures.


A paper model of a ziggurat found on the Internet

It is clear that while preparing visual aids for my native 6th school/gymnasium in Penza, I could not pass by the ziggurat. But here the question arose: how, from what and what to make it?

50% of the question disappeared after I looked on the Internet. There I found a wonderful paper ziggurat layout: enlarge, print, cut out, glue and – done! But… such a glued “homemade” is not suitable for a visual aid, since it is completely devoid of volume. Yes, it is colored, and it would be nice to make it together with a child, and even in a labor/creation lesson, but this is not enough for a teaching aid.


All the details and assembly sequence of this model

I had to take, again, quite affordable cardboard from packages from the Magnit store, cut out all the same parts from it and glue two platforms and a temple crowning them. The base was a 30x30 cm foam board, covered on four sides with ordinary school birch… rulers 30 cm long. I didn’t even have to cut them!

Coffee stirrers helped me make niches on the walls. They are glued to the cardboard with PVA glue, pressed with clothespins, and then the resulting structure is sanded with sandpaper. The upper platforms are linden wood slats, they are smooth and durable, giving the structure a finished and aesthetic look.


Another photo of a ziggurat model made of cardboard, coffee stirrers, foam plastic and 30-centimeter rulers. So now the fifth-graders in the 6th gymnasium will be able not only to look at this visual aid, but also to hold it in their hands. The model is made a little rough on purpose. So that children would be psychologically able to make something similar. Filigree lines and decoration are completely unnecessary here! Photo and work by the author

The painting is done with acrylic paint to match the color of the clay. The grass around the structure, and it should be used to shade its foundation, is from a branded grass set for dioramas. It's just a pity that we couldn't find little people in the right scale, otherwise we could have made a cool procession of ancient Sumerians going to worship the gods!
102 comments
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  1. -4
    22 September 2024 06: 17
    What does this article have to do with VO???
    1. +11
      22 September 2024 07: 09
      Quote: Good
      What does this article have to do with VO???

      The most direct. This is a story that teaches nothing, but punishes cruelly for unlearned lessons.
      1. +3
        23 September 2024 02: 10
        Comrade doesn't understand... Let's explain.
  2. +2
    22 September 2024 06: 52
    In ancient Mesopotamia, these were ziggurats (from the Akkadian word sigguratu – “summit”, including “mountain summit”) – which were multi-layered religious structures. They were also built in Elam, and this was a typical religious building in Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian and Elamite architecture.



    We can also remember the Mesoamerican pyramids - these are step pyramids with temples on top, they are similar to the ziggurats of Mesopotamia.

    There are also modern ziggurats, for example, on Red Square in Moscow.
    1. +3
      22 September 2024 07: 54
      So the author remembered
      architectural identity, then... the relatives of the ziggurats of Mesopotamia are the step pyramids of Mesoamerica. As in Mesopotamia, the Indian "ziggurats" were built by different peoples, but using the same technology, as well as in the same architectural style, and on their upper platforms stood temple structures.
      1. +4
        22 September 2024 08: 06
        Quote: KVU-NSVD
        So the author remembered

        Sorry, I missed it. recourse
    2. +6
      22 September 2024 09: 00
      In North Ossetia, in the medieval village of Lisri, there is a ziggurat, but it is clearly of an older age, probably still bronze.
    3. +1
      22 September 2024 11: 20
      Quote: Olgovich
      There are also modern ziggurats, for example, on Red Square in Moscow.
      Ziggurats are religious buildings. Do you pray to Lenin?
      1. -2
        22 September 2024 18: 07
        Quote: bk0010
        Ziggurats are religious buildings. Do you pray to Lenin?

        No, you.
        1. -2
          22 September 2024 18: 48
          Quote: Olgovich
          No, you.
          There is no point in blaming others. The mausoleum has nothing in common with ziggurats.
          1. +4
            23 September 2024 02: 42
            What nonsense... how can it not be?! If Shchusev himself claimed that he was commissioned to build a ziggurat and that he consulted a certain F. Poulsen, a specialist in Mesopotamian architecture, about its architecture.
            And Shchusev not only repeated the shape of the ziggurat, but also put a special symbolic meaning into the building’s plan, taking as a basis the Pergamon Altar, also known as the “Throne of Satan”.
            1. 0
              23 September 2024 15: 54
              Quote from The Watcher
              pergamon altar

              A memorial monument erected in honor of the victory won by the Pergamon king Attalus I over the barbarian Gauls in 228 BC. The main theme of the relief images is the battle of the gods with the giants. Currently located in the Berlin Pergamon Museum (Antique Collection). Traditionally, the altar is considered to have been dedicated to Zeus, but other versions include a dedication to the "twelve Olympians", King Eumenes II, Athena, and Athena together with Zeus. Based on the few surviving inscriptions, its affiliation cannot be accurately reconstructed.
              Quote from The Watcher
              also known as "Satan's Throne".

              laughing Known to whom? Ancient Jews? Are you a fan of Jewish fairy tales? wassat
            2. +3
              23 September 2024 20: 19
              Quote from The Watcher
              What nonsense... how can it not be?! If Shchusev himself claimed that he was commissioned to build a ziggurat and that he consulted a certain F. Poulsen, a specialist in Mesopotamian architecture, about its architecture.
              And Shchusev not only repeated the shape of the ziggurat, but also put a special symbolic meaning into the building’s plan, taking as a basis the Pergamon Altar, also known as the “Throne of Satan”.
              And do you have evidence of this crap?
              Here are Shchusev's actual words:
              I was looking for analogs throughout the history of architecture. I found the shape of the pyramids for the Mausoleum on Red Square unsuitable. “Lenin died, but his work lives on” - that, it seemed to me, was the idea that should be expressed in the architecture of his Mausoleum. Based on this, I created the composition of the stepped monument.
          2. +2
            23 September 2024 07: 32
            Quote: bk0010
            There is no point in blaming others. The mausoleum has nothing in common with ziggurats.

            Who lied to you about being healthy?
            Learn what a ziggurat looks like and why the Kunstkamera on Red Square was built
            1. +2
              23 September 2024 15: 49
              Quote: Olgovich
              and why did they build the Kunstkamera on Red Square?

              And for what?
              1. 0
                24 September 2024 07: 29
                Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
                And for what?

                The Kunstkamera is famous for its "special" collection of anatomical rarities and anomalies
                1. +2
                  24 September 2024 11: 51
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The Kunstkamera is famous for its "special" collection of anatomical rarities and anomalies

                  And what anomaly do you see in Lenin’s body?
                  And as I understand it, all the “incorruptible” relics of all Orthodox saints are, in your terminology, also cabinet of curiosities?
                  1. +1
                    24 September 2024 11: 55
                    Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
                    And what anomaly do you see in Lenin’s body?

                    rarity - there is practically no body there - experiments have been going on for 100 years.
                    Unlike relics
                    1. -1
                      24 September 2024 11: 58
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      rarity - there is practically no body there - experiments have been going on for 100 years.
                      Unlike relics

                      Are you making such judgments about Lenin and his relics based on personal experience?
                      1. +1
                        24 September 2024 12: 00
                        Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
                        Are you making such judgments about Lenin and his relics based on personal experience?

                        Are you asking such questions about Lenin and his relics from personal experience?
                      2. 0
                        24 September 2024 12: 07
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Are you asking such questions about Lenin and his relics from personal experience?

                        Well, personally, I have no idea how much of Lenin's body is left there. And I haven't come across any scientific works on this topic. Only journalistic articles based on "sources" wassat
                        The same goes for the copious dismemberment called relics. I also don't remember the Church conducting any scientific research or giving them away for this purpose...
                        But you spoke so categorically about Lenin and the relics that it seems like you know this firsthand! And you literally worked with these objects!
                      3. +1
                        24 September 2024 12: 11
                        Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
                        . And I have not come across any scientific works on this topic.

                        So keep looking - there was a whole institute working there.
                        Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
                        We really worked with these objects!

                        just read more
                      4. 0
                        24 September 2024 12: 17
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        just read more

                        About relics? belay Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, whether? laughing
                        Or prayers? wassat
                      5. +1
                        24 September 2024 12: 18
                        about the mummy, the victim of hundreds of experiments.
            2. 0
              23 September 2024 20: 24
              Quote: Olgovich
              Who lied to you about being healthy?
              This is not a lie, it is a fact. The fact that I regularly expose your fabrications confirms this.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Learn what a ziggurat looks like and why the Kunstkamera on Red Square was built
              To preserve Lenin's body incorruptible, making it a symbol of the new era of communism. Why?
              1. +2
                24 September 2024 07: 35
                Quote: bk0010
                What I do regularly I expose Your fabrications confirm this.

                another confirmation that you were deceived
                Quote: bk0010
                To preserve Lenin's body incorruptible, making it a symbol new era communism.

                and when did the old one end? lol Your mummies are great symbols, significant Yes
                1. 0
                  24 September 2024 23: 19
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  another confirmation that you were deceived
                  Deceived in what?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  and when did the old one end?
                  In October 1917.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Your mummies are good symbols, they are meaningful yes
                  Well, it's no worse than the priests'.
                  1. +1
                    25 September 2024 07: 51
                    Quote: bk0010
                    Deceived in what?

                    capable of.
                    Quote: bk0010
                    In October 1917.

                    is the old era of communism over? lol
                    Quote: bk0010
                    Well, it's no worse than the priests'.

                    funnier, yes....

                    In Orthodoxy, relics are bearers of grace and must be preserved and revered for moral, edifying and liturgical purposes.

                    You have a cabinet of curiosities for the idle viewing of curious people.
                    1. +1
                      25 September 2024 20: 08
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      capable of.
                      In what state?
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      is the old era of communism over? lol
                      How narrow-minded you are... It's just an old era, the era of capitalism. Just like the era of feudalism ended with the revolution in the Netherlands. Is that clearer?
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      funnier, yes....

                      In Orthodoxy, relics are bearers of grace and must be preserved and revered for moral, edifying and liturgical purposes.

                      You have a cabinet of curiosities for the idle viewing of curious people.
                      So what? The goal doesn't matter here. Besides, Egyptian mummies are also on display for scientists and those interested, no one is calling for burying them...
                      1. +1
                        26 September 2024 07: 19
                        Quote: bk0010
                        In what state?

                        see above
                        Quote: bk0010
                        You are so narrow-minded.

                        What a non-Russian you are - read what you yourself wrote: "a new era of communism".
                        So, it was his old era.
                        Quote: bk0010
                        So what? The goal doesn't matter here.

                        that the exhibit is put on display for the amusement of the idle public, like other freaks.
                      2. +1
                        26 September 2024 16: 35
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        see above
                        Another confirmation that you have a headache.
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        What a non-Russian you are - read what you yourself wrote: "a new era of communism".
                        So, it was his old era.
                        How much enthusiasm did the forgotten comma awaken in you...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        that the exhibit is put on display for the amusement of the idle public, like other freaks.
                        I'll ask again: "So what?" First bury all the relics, and then start driving wedges into the mausoleum. As they say, "only after you."
                      3. +1
                        26 September 2024 16: 41
                        Quote: bk0010
                        Another confirmation,

                        what do you have
                        Quote: bk0010
                        headache

                        Quote: bk0010
                        How much enthusiasm did the forgotten comma awaken in you?

                        there is no need for a comma there, literate
                        Quote: bk0010
                        I'll ask again: "So what?" First bury all the relics, and then start driving wedges into the mausoleum.

                        see -WHAT are relics.
                        And you have an exhibit for the amusement of the idle public.

                        Will it ever get there?
                      4. +1
                        26 September 2024 22: 05
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        what do you have
                        Kindergarten...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        there is no need for a comma there, literate
                        Comma. I know better, literate man.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        see -WHAT are relics.
                        Pieces of corpses for the amusement of the public.
                      5. 0
                        27 September 2024 09: 03
                        Quote: bk0010
                        Kindergarten...

                        nursery for UN
                        Quote: bk0010
                        Comma. I know better,

                        to:
                        Comma|Rules of Russian spelling and punctuation ...
                        Gramota.ru
                        https://gramota.ru › spravochniki › zapyataya
                        Quote: bk0010
                        Pieces of corpses for the amusement of the public

                        for the veneration of believers as bearers of grace, and this is none of your business.

                        your mummy is there just for the amusement of the curious public, like in a museum of curiosities, a menagerie, or TikTok.
                      6. 0
                        27 September 2024 19: 54
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        nursery for UN
                        I'm glad you realized this and are on the path to correction!
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        to:
                        Comma|Rules of Russian spelling and punctuation ...
                        Gramota.ru
                        https://gramota.ru › spravochniki › zapyataya
                        And what are you going to tell me here? It doesn't really work. (See for example https://gramota.ru/biblioteka/spravochniki/zapyataya/zapyataya-mezhdu-glavnym-i-pridatochnym-predlozheniyami). And most importantly, all this will not affect the result: "a new era of communism"
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        for the veneration of believers as bearers of grace, and this is none of your business.

                        your mummy is there just for the amusement of the curious public, like in a museum of curiosities, a menagerie, or TikTok.
                        Oh no, it doesn't work like that: either both are mummies for fun, or both are none of your business. Look at that...
                      7. 0
                        29 September 2024 10: 46
                        Quote: bk0010
                        oh you

                        You'll poke your wife with it if she gives it to you.
                        Quote: bk0010
                        It doesn't really work.

                        for graduates of UN nurseries - does not work
                        Quote: bk0010
                        "new era of communism"

                        graota ru - to help.
                        Quote: bk0010
                        Oh no, it doesn't work like that: it's either one or the other.

                        with what fright?
                        You have an object of amusement, like three-headed ones, yes, and the relics are sacred sources of grace.
                      8. 0
                        29 September 2024 12: 24
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You'll poke your wife with it if she gives it to you.
                        You have discredited yourself and are no longer worthy of being addressed as "you".
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        for graduates of UN nurseries - does not work

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        graota ru - to help.
                        Lost? That's it! Graota ru...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        with what fright?
                        You have an object of amusement, like three-headed ones, yes, and the relics are sacred sources of grace.
                        Your sources don't work (the grace isn't recorded), so there's no point in lying here, object of amusement.
      2. 0
        1 October 2024 22: 37
        Quote: bk0010
        Ziggurats are religious buildings. Do you pray to Lenin?

        Not a very successful trolling, because in the USSR there was a cult of personality of Lenin - they were forced to bow to him and his mummy until the collapse of the USSR. By the way, it's time to remove him from the Kremlin along with that stepped pyramid, and bring the Kremlin itself to its historical divine appearance.
        1. 0
          1 October 2024 22: 49
          ************** from Red Square.
        2. 0
          Yesterday, 19: 44
          Quote: running man
          Not a very successful trolling, because in the USSR there was a cult of personality of Lenin - he and his mummy were forced to be worshiped until the collapse of the USSR
          Bullshit. I lived during the USSR, no one forced me to worship Lenin's mummy. They tried to tell me in elementary school how good Lenin was (unsuccessfully, I didn't care), but to worship...
  3. -1
    22 September 2024 07: 38
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Good
    What does this article have to do with VO???

    The most direct. This is a story that teaches nothing, but punishes cruelly for unlearned lessons.

    So what's the unlearned lesson here???
  4. +2
    22 September 2024 07: 53
    that the Sumerians first lived in the mountains

    But the Sumerians themselves claimed that their ancestors came from overseas... And where are the mountainous regions in the visible vicinity overseas? However, the question is...
    1. +3
      22 September 2024 09: 03
      That is why, in my view, the architecture of the pyramids reflects the population's view of the distribution of social strata. The bottom, widest layer is the working population. The next, higher layer is those who directly govern this population. And so on, ascending. And at the very top are those who are anointed by the gods and communicate with them.
      And if the most ancient pyramids were stepped, which allowed one to climb from the lower layer to the upper one, which obviously reflected the ability of a person to reach the upper stratum, starting from any layer, then the later Egyptian pyramids were smooth-walled, excluding such a possibility due to the strict heredity of power within the boundaries of any stratum.
      From this point of view, look at the structure of our society - it is not vertical, it is clearly, right now, trying to take shape as the pyramid of Cheops.
      1. +3
        22 September 2024 09: 10
        Hmm... As for me, the ziggurat is not an idea of ​​what layers of society a person can climb into, but a visual aid of who is shitting on whose head from above at different levels... what wink
        1. +1
          22 September 2024 09: 13
          visual aid of who shits on whose head

          good drinks wassat )))
          ++++++++++++++++++++
          Paul, I appreciate it! )))
          1. +2
            22 September 2024 09: 19
            Thank... feel hi

            Well then, continuing the analogy, the smooth pyramid is a symbol of what is under the pharaoh - everything without exception flows around? belay At least a little bit - but from his greatness will everyone get it, as a visible embodiment of absolute power? what Like, no one will leave without attention? wink
            1. +1
              22 September 2024 09: 57
              Like, no one will leave without attention?

              They will all leave deprived. The greatness will not seep to the lower layer. At least in our Fatherland. Each layer uses stones of its own manufacture for its construction as an insulating material.
        2. +1
          22 September 2024 10: 41
          Quote: paul3390
          a visual aid of who is shitting on whose head from above at different levels...

          Ugh, how disgusting...
          1. +3
            22 September 2024 10: 56
            But - however, it is vital... wink
      2. +4
        22 September 2024 09: 13
        A funny theory. In this sense, the Middle Ages compare favorably with all previous and subsequent eras.
        Good morning, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
        1. +2
          22 September 2024 09: 24
          Good morning Anton! )))
          The Middle Ages compares favorably with all previous and subsequent eras.

          Well, I'm not sure about the benefits. And it's different, in my opinion, because in the depths of feudalism an unprecedented socio-economic system emerged and began to build its future - financial and technological capitalism. This is when people of the lower strata begin to manage the higher ones due to their ability to do so. And in order to avoid awkwardness and embarrassment from such a situation, God's anointed ones were forced to hand out noble titles to such managers. wassat )))
          1. +1
            22 September 2024 09: 30
            And in order to avoid the awkwardness and embarrassment of such a situation, the anointed of God were forced to give such managers noble titles.
            Hugo Capet - God's anointed?!?!? Well, how would the barons choose him as king...
            Several centuries later, the same thing happened to us.
            1. +2
              22 September 2024 09: 51
              And because society was at such a stage of development that it did not yet allow taking the smooth-walled Egyptian pyramid as a model, only the stepped form was suitable. And we are at the same low start. But those who froze and are ready to rush, think that everything will work out for them.
          2. 0
            22 September 2024 09: 52
            financial-technological capitalism

            Actually, something similar existed in the Roman Empire. In principle, all the shoots of capitalism were there. But they did not grow. As was the case all over the planet, except Europe.

            This allows us to assume that the phenomenon of Western capitalism is connected exclusively with the opening of gigantic undeveloped markets. And - a colossal influx of practically free precious metals and raw materials from America. There was simply nothing like this in the history of civilization before. A limited, relatively poor, unremarkable region instantly received both financing and points of application of these funds.

            Thus, the father of capitalism is Columbus... And if America had been discovered, say, under Octavian Augustus, the bourgeoisie would have formed under Trajan... With all the consequences...
            1. +3
              22 September 2024 10: 17
              It's as if the stars aligned on Columbus and America!
              The bourgeoisie began to form much earlier.
              Good morning Paul!
              1. +1
                22 September 2024 10: 55
                hi

                Well, it was in Rome, too. And in the Italian cities of the early Middle Ages. Yes, in many places. But it was unable to become the ruling class anywhere. For an obvious reason - to do this, it was necessary to increase its influence many times over, and this can only be done through income. Without gigantic free markets and no less gigantic capital - how can this be done? No way. As long as the influx of money from trade and industrial events does not exceed that from large land holdings - the bourgeoisie has no chance.

                But the discovery of America changed the situation dramatically.
            2. +2
              22 September 2024 11: 02
              By the time America was discovered, Europe was already an advanced region, perhaps the most advanced.
              The world's best firearms, best armor, best shipbuilding, printing and much more
              The bourgeoisie already occupies a very prominent position in the same Flanders. Bruges was comparable in terms of trade to Venice.

              America was not a market for a very long time - only a source of precious metals. The model of exploitation of America before the 17th century was purely feudal. The Indians were baptized, enslaved by encomiendas and burdened with duties.

              The market was Asia - spices, cochineal, silk. From the point of view of international trade, Vasco da Gama's discovery was an order of magnitude more important than Columbus's.

              The Romans, by the way, had rich sources of precious metals nearby - Spain, Dacia, etc. But capitalism never emerged.
              1. +1
                22 September 2024 11: 14
                Come on - what's so advanced about that?? The same Ottomans were tearing Europe apart in their time... Until the notorious price revolution began, which completely undermined them.

                The same Grozny had an artillery park that would make any European country envious. The Europeans couldn't do anything about the Algerian pirates right under their noses until the 19th century. Even the entire might of Charles V's empire was broken by North Africa. And so on and so forth...

                And what was it.. In your opinion - the serfdom model does not require goods at all or what? I will not even mention that only Mexican silver allowed to establish trade with China across the Pacific Ocean..

                Spices, cochineal, silk - that's great, of course, but the volumes are not the same. Besides - the Roman Empire traded all of this briskly. Did that change anything?

                Sources of precious metals in Spain and Dacia are in no way comparable to those in the US. In addition, you do not take into account that mines are an annual but not very large production. And from America - gigantic sums fell practically INSTANTLY... And continued to arrive..
                1. +1
                  22 September 2024 11: 48
                  Some kind of vinaigrette.

                  The turning point is called the discovery of Columbus, well, that's the date we should look at, and not lump everything together, shoving "facts" from different eras.

                  The Ottomans are a supranational union with colossal resources, including at the expense of the Europeans. The giant bombards for the Ottomans were made by European masters,

                  The artillery park of Grozny was largely created by European masters

                  I can add that Roman fortifications have been preserved in Carcassonne, but compared to the medieval ones, they are not impressive at all. I'll post the material sometime.

                  And what was it.. In your opinion - the serfdom model does not require goods at all or what? I will not even mention that only Mexican silver allowed to establish trade with China across the Pacific Ocean..


                  The original model of exploitation of America is a natural economy. This is not to mention that the native inhabitants of America do not create demand for European goods - they have no money. The consumers of European goods were migrants from Spain, if you had read anything on the subject, you would know that trade with the colonies was a monopoly of Spain and due to a number of difficulties, the supply of European goods was completely insufficient. That's your entire colossal market laughing

                  Spices, cochineal, silk - that's great, of course, but the volumes are not the same.

                  From what I know, it's much more than trade with America. See above.


                  Sources of precious metals in Spain and Dacia are in no way comparable to those in the US. In addition, you do not take into account that mines are an annual but not very large production. And from America - gigantic sums fell practically INSTANTLY... And continued to arrive..


                  You don't understand what you're writing about. At least read Henry Kamen.

                  Trajan reaped a fantastic "golden harvest" in Dacia. throughout the Roman Empire lasted for 50 years
                  The Spanish "catch" in Mexico and Peru was much more modest. Moreover, the receipts were irregular.
                  The turning point came when regular exploitation of the mines in Potosi began in 1556 - almost 70 years after Columbus' discovery.

                  My idea is that Columbus's discovery had a delayed effect - a regular huge flow of silver is the middle of the 16th century, the formation of the market in America is the second half of the 16th century, when a noticeable smuggling of European goods to the Spanish possessions of England and Holland began. By that time, we had capitalism in all fields in Europe. Therefore, it will not work to link the discovery of America to the birth of capitalism.
                  1. +1
                    22 September 2024 11: 58
                    Vinaigrette, the sense of language has completely disappeared, alas
                    1. +2
                      22 September 2024 12: 23
                      You know, in my opinion, you have some kind of epic Eurocentric vinaigrette in your head...

                      The Ottomans are like a supranational union... And what about Europe, which you are talking about - then what?

                      Well, yes - Chokhov, for example, was of course Italian... Don't forget - Ivan the Terrible was subject to an embargo by the Livonian Order and the Hansa...

                      WHY do the Indians need money - if they gave goods in exchange? And - how do you imagine the existence of colonies without goods??? Even the last peon - but at least a ploughshare, an axe and a piece of cloth for a shirt are needed.. At the very least. I'm not even talking about the needs of the Spanish hidalgos themselves in America..

                      What does Spain have to do with it - America was supplied with double bass in those years by almost all European countries. And Spain was trying hard to prevent this. In fact, the corsairs appeared as a counteraction to this. If everything was so poor - why did England, France and Holland try so hard to get involved?

                      You are simply delirious - WHERE did Dacia get so much gold? To put it mildly, the mines are not rich, and the technology is cave-like. And the Dacians themselves put their gold into use - why would they store it if they could buy something useful with it? In America - they were not brilliant in technology either, but they took the reserves accumulated over CENTURIES!! Because there - it is not money, but mainly cult objects. They did not trade for gold.

                      You don't understand what you're writing about. Spain waged the most difficult wars at the beginning of the 50th century. And all the American gold went to pay for military contracts in Italy and Flanders. And this is what gave impetus to the development of capitalism. Because XNUMX years before that, its level in Europe was not much different from that of Rome.
                      1. +2
                        22 September 2024 13: 35
                        You know, in my opinion, you have some kind of epic Eurocentric vinaigrette in your head.


                        Why this demagogy?
                        I gave specific examples of Europe's leadership at the time of the discovery of America - armor, firearms, fortification, shipbuilding, navigation, printing.. Live with it now

                        The Ottomans are like a supranational union... And what about Europe, which you are talking about - then what?

                        And Europe, this is not a union. It is simply a convenient construct for discussing general development patterns. For example, the origins of capitalism laughing
                        But there are obvious problems with the political unity of Europe, hence the successes of the Ottomans. Everything is on the surface

                        Well, yes - Chokhov, for example, was of course Italian... Don't forget - Ivan the Terrible was subject to an embargo by the Livonian Order and the Hansa...


                        This prevented the involvement of "foreign specialists", but did not exclude it. Including for key "projects". The mine war near Kazan was led by Messrs. Butler and Erasmus laughing


                        What does Spain have to do with it? In those years, almost all European countries supplied America with double bass.


                        In those years - that is from the second half of the 16th century, which you stubbornly ignore. It was then that the American market was formed. There were many migrants and Creoles, cities grew, and here the market was formed, of course, pan-European. It's funny that I'm writing about this too.

                        But the time gap between Columbus's discovery and the formation of the market is ignored. It turns out that the flow of silver and the American market - from the middle of the 16th century. And the rise of Flanders as the birthplace of capitalism around 1500 (the heyday of Antwerp) and earlier. Undoubtedly, capitalism took advantage of the discovery of America, but it could not have arisen thanks to it simply because it obviously existed before the discovery could bear fruit.

                        I'm not even touching on the history of wool and cloth in England and Flanders, which is usually presented as a trigger for capitalism. Why multiply entities?


                        You are simply delirious - WHERE did Dacia get so much gold? To put it mildly, the mines are not rich, and the technology is cave-like. And the Dacians themselves put their gold into use - why would they store it if they could buy something useful with it? In America - they were not brilliant in technology either, but they took the reserves accumulated over CENTURIES!! Because there - it is not money, but mainly cult objects. They did not trade for gold.


                        Caps came into play, I would even say CAPS laughing
                        Alas, as usual, aplomb is no substitute for lack of knowledge. The Romans took 165 tons of gold and 331 tons of silver from one treasury in the Sargessia riverbed. You can compare it with the ransom of Atahualpa
                        There were no fantastically plundered riches in America, and the situation with gold was not very good at all. For hundreds of conquistadors, the loot looked fabulous. On the scale of the empire, it was already so-so. The regular flow of huge masses of silver on an industrial "scale" was only from the mines of Potosi from the middle of the 16th century and nothing else.
            3. +1
              23 September 2024 02: 27
              Well, not exactly, with all due respect I have been reading comments for many years. Capitalism should not be confused with market relations, which exist in capitalism, but they also exist in feudalism, take the same fairs, merchants and capitalism even introduces slavery. You can find fault with me, but capitalism in its essence is the imposition of goods and services on other market participants, and the formation of monopolies.
              As for the comparison with Trajan, you are mistaken. Thor Heyerdahl crossed the Atlantic on a papyrus boat, which does not mean that such a journey could be regular and, most importantly, why? Tobacco and potatoes would have been brought? Well, there is conditional incense and turnips.
              The issue of colonization is the excess European population, and it all happened for the same reasons as the Greek, and before that the Phoenician colonization.
          3. +2
            23 September 2024 08: 17
            Depressant
            financial-technological capitalism. This is when people of the lower strata begin to rule the higher

            A stupid liberal fairy tale. More precisely, not stupid, but an extremely profitable fairy tale for the "lower", invented by the "higher".
            Capitalism arose in feudal countries and was a direct product of feudalism.
            It's just that the "higher ones" at some point realized that it is more profitable not to own the lower ones, but to make money off of them.
            And in most feudal countries, either rich feudal lords, or merchants, or major criminals (pirates, financial speculators, etc.) became capitalists. People "from the lower strata" in most societies can rise to the top only during major social catastrophes, and even then, not always. Even during the French Revolution, this did not happen.
            This only happened in Soviet Russia. Somehow I can't remember where else
        2. +3
          22 September 2024 10: 40
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          In this sense, the Middle Ages differs favorably from all previous and subsequent eras.

          Even his contemporaries noticed the increased social mobility in the Middle Ages. In my book "Knights of the East" there is a statement on this subject by one Eastern "publicist". But this was also the case in the West...
          1. +1
            22 September 2024 10: 58
            I don’t think that social mobility in the Middle Ages somehow exceeded that of, say, the heyday of the Principate... what
            1. +3
              22 September 2024 15: 11
              Exceeded by several times. People went on crusades in thousands, without any data on which direction to go, and when and where the end point would be. To go several hundred kilometers just to bow to the relics of a saint, and to return before the required agricultural date is the norm, regardless of gender and age.
              1. +1
                22 September 2024 15: 21
                Complex issue.
                In the Roman Empire there was a powerful factor of social mobility - military service.

                It’s a pity that you write rarely and I don’t have time to ask questions about archeology.
      3. +2
        22 September 2024 10: 37
        Quote: depressant
        And if the most ancient pyramids were stepped, which allowed one to climb from the lower layer to the upper one, which obviously reflected the ability of a person to reach the upper stratum, starting from any layer, then the later Egyptian pyramids were smooth-walled, excluding such a possibility due to the strict heredity of power within the boundaries of any stratum.

        It's funny
        1. +5
          22 September 2024 15: 14
          Yes, everything is simpler there. A stepped pyramid is simply simpler and cheaper to build at any level of engineering technology and resources. That's all. Even on the side edges at the time of construction - is simply the customer's show-off, always and everywhere. It was done this way because the customer could afford and pay for this pyramidal structure to be higher, bigger, and not like all the surrounding ones.
      4. +2
        22 September 2024 19: 38
        "if the most ancient pyramids" - only one pyramid was stepped - Djoser. The author made the same mistake. Before the pyramids, mastabas were built, a step pyramid is simply several mastabas placed one on top of the other.
      5. +1
        22 September 2024 19: 41
        "allowed you to climb up from the bottom layer" - try to climb from one step of the pyramid to another! laughing It won't work without a big ladder.
      6. +1
        23 September 2024 02: 09
        But I have a simpler understanding. It is not visible from my window, but if you go up to the roof of the house, you can see the Chatyr-Dag mountain, 1527 m. Well, no one will build such a pyramid. But there, in Egypt, it is noticeable, I mean the entire Giza complex. Moreover, there are not the most successful pyramids
        https://elementy.ru/images/news/discovery_of_a_big_void_in_khufus_pyramid_fig4_2000.jpg
        There is no need to attribute deep wisdom to the Egyptians. The pyramidal shape is not exclusive to Egypt.
        1. +1
          23 September 2024 05: 45
          There is no need to attribute deep wisdom to the Egyptians. The pyramidal shape is not exclusive to Egypt.

          Not exclusive...
          What does this mean?
          Maybe it's about the fact that humanity is one in its origin and therefore the subconscious of all people on the planet works the same way? On all continents people tried to climb mountains and all made the same conclusions, deeply embedded in the subconscious of large human communities. That especially pointed and high mountain peaks are in principle unattainable, they cannot be climbed (by the way, to this day few people succeed, even with modern equipment, many die on the way to the top of Everest). And these peaks have pyramidal shapes. The closer a high mountain is to a pyramid, the more impossible it is to climb it.

          But gods do exist, don't they? No one has ever seen them with their own eyes, only sensed their presence by one sign or another. But they live somewhere? On some firmament. On Mount Olympus. Or on the peaks of the Andes. Or somewhere else on the peaks. On Kailash.
          The pyramid is a man-made Olympus.

          Or Kailas. An expression of the subconscious idea of ​​the collective humanity about the dwelling place of the gods, given from the experience of ancestors. Even if the community now lives in a place where there are no high peaked mountains. There are no mountains, but high churches are built, stretched as high as possible upwards. With domes resembling peaks. Domes are not pyramids, they are cones. The model was forgotten, the memory of ancestors has evaporated from the subconscious due to too much time, but has not gone away completely. Or they thought that the dome is more aesthetically pleasing.
          It is desirable to bring the gods closer to oneself. To do this, one needs to build them a suitable dwelling. Over time, humanity has become mercantile and learned to count money. A pyramid-mountain is too expensive. A more budget-friendly option will do - a church.
          According to the stingy Protestants, even a small house will do.
          1. +1
            23 September 2024 08: 05
            We don't know how the subconscious works. In Crimea, one bitten person also looked for pyramids, only underground ones, I even went to that place with my colleagues-local historians and there's nothing there. And here, for example, if I go up to the roof of my house, you can see Mount Chatyr-Dag, the highest point, it has two peaks, 1527 meters. Agree that all the pyramids taken together simply fade away in front of such a magnitude, and our mountains are small.
            I really don't quite understand the Aztec pyramids, the mountains there are much higher than the Crimean ones. And here you need to roughly understand the consciousness of those people, you won't be able to fully understand, why disfigure yourself so much to bury a few, excuse me, dead people.
            But it does make an impression, and I'll also say something about stinginess. In Sevastopol, they restored the Vladimir Cathedral in Chersonesos, it's two-story - why? I've never seen it packed to the brim, despite the fact that tourist groups go there in caravans to Chersonesos. So the stingy ones are right in their own way. I'm not defending their ideology, but in Simferopol we have 4 rather large churches, they are filled only on Easter, and why the hell are they building new ones? And what are the worship crosses?
            And believe me, I have been to many churches and monasteries, and if anyone causes a stir there, it is the tourists that I take with me. And I see the attitude of tourists, light a candle, throw something as a gift and the deed is done. Such, supposedly, believers are the overwhelming majority.
            I was once traveling with a believer, provoked him, and he told me: with your science there will be no faith left. The guy knows what he's talking about, he's just stupid enough to say it out loud.
      7. +1
        23 September 2024 02: 16
        But it seems to me that this is not a good explanation, we have no sources that would say about this. It's just that the pyramid is stable and they said about mastabas here. Pyramids are simply a masterpiece of the development of religious buildings, and for example, we have found plenty of Polovtsian women, there are enough burial mounds to bite, a stone box of the Kemi-Oba culture was found in Simferopol, and this stone was dragged either 45 km or 90. Why bother so much, we don't know.
    2. +2
      22 September 2024 15: 06
      Let's put it this way: we arrived after surviving the flood.
      They have it complicated there, and it all comes down to the interpretation options of their semantics of what they were trying to convey through their clay tablets. "They survived the big water," if I remember correctly (not my topic). Also the language because of the format of its recording outside of language families; moreover, it is a little written there, and a little not alone even in this format. On the plus side - well, it develops such a science as glottochronology, and it gives very interesting data.
      The fact that everything there is complicated, but interesting, was understood by the Assyrians, who made it a mass practice to directly copy Sumerian tablets.
      With a separate note in the corner of each, "The original language of Sumer is preserved." The size of the phenomenon can be judged by the fact that a quarter of those raised from Nineveh have such a note. This is from those found.
  5. +3
    22 September 2024 10: 37
    Here Anton mentioned Hugo Capet. This is a very early state. And, imagine, under the Capetians the population ate well. But when capitalism began to "happen" officially, to build its genesis, the population began to eat very poorly. Of course, epidemics and long wars can be mentioned as reasons, which (I mean wars) spared the population producing food, and nevertheless. In the "enlightened" Middle Ages, people were surprised to discover that the old ladies and grandfathers ate a lot of meat, but they, the current, enlightened-medieval, cannot afford this product in the required quantity. Two hundred years of hunger, in fact. But "enlightened". And only by the middle of the 19th century the diet in Europe was restored )))
    1. +3
      22 September 2024 11: 22
      After 1348-50, people ate meat with three mouths. The agricultural model changed, because there was no one left to work the land.
      1. +1
        22 September 2024 11: 26
        There was no one left to cultivate the land, and in two years all the livestock was gobbled up in three throats )))
        So how did the model change? Switched to hunting?
        1. +3
          22 September 2024 12: 03
          So how has the model changed?
          They switched from agriculture to cattle breeding. To a large extent, the climate catastrophe contributed to this. Hence, "sheep ate people" and, accordingly, the industrial revolution. By the way, Western Europeans still consume much less bread than we do.
  6. +3
    22 September 2024 12: 50
    The article about the Ziggurat is good and interesting. I personally prefer these step pyramids to the smooth Egyptian ones, I think they are more habitable and practical. I read that expert Mircea Eliade says that each step of the pyramids represents something different. For example, the foundation under the pyramid is the hidden world, the base is the earth, and the top step is the sky. I don't know how true these statements are, but he says they are true.
  7. +2
    22 September 2024 12: 56
    Then I discovered that there is a step pyramid in Turkmenistan and also a Ziggurat in Sardinia, in Monte d'Accoddi, in the archaeological area. This Ziggurat is small in size compared to the more famous ones and does not seem to have any connection with the Sumerians, but it is interesting.
  8. +2
    22 September 2024 15: 11
    I think that the height and scale were not intended to bring one closer to the gods, their task was to demonstrate some sacred ability of the priests to be involved in the creation of something like this, and through this, some divine will standing behind it. Strictly speaking, these buildings on an aesthetic level performed the same role as the monumental architecture of totalitarian regimes in our time.
    How can you show power and authority to those who can't read (I know that literacy was quite widespread there, but "quite widespread" doesn't mean "the overwhelming majority were literate"), who toil their whole lives in agriculture or fishing? The right thing to do is to show them a huge pile, immediately impressing them with their unrealistic labor costs, because they know very well from their line of work what labor costs are.
    Hence the burial mounds, pyramids, ziggurats and so on and so forth. Mystical phallometry as it is. hi
    1. +3
      22 September 2024 17: 14
      Mystical phallometry as it is

      You know, very often when constructing a structure, it embodies a multidimensionality of expectations. Let's say, a temple.
      The ruler wants to use it to assert his power. The clergy, along with theirs. The architect is concerned about the durability of the structure, which at the same time must reflect the customer's requirements. Artists and designers often quite boldly deviate from the task at hand, but still without going beyond it - it is important for them to reflect their vision of the problem, to express themselves. There are still a bunch of craftsmen, suppliers, city authorities are interested parties, local peasants see a reason to expand food production, etc.
      Therefore, all sorts of interpretations are possible - why and for what reason this and that was erected.
      That's how the pyramids are.
      1. +2
        22 September 2024 17: 33
        suppliers
        "- Methodius, they haven't brought in any nails today.
        - Okay, Arkhip, let's try without them."
        This is how Kizhi was built...
        1. +1
          22 September 2024 17: 48
          This is how Kizhi was built...

          There were teams of craftsmen. They erected them in a day. That's why they were one-day churches, but masterpieces. I remember there were more of them, but one was burned down by a liberal teenager who was also a radical.
          1. +1
            22 September 2024 17: 55
            Somehow, in my mind, radicalism and liberalism don’t fit together... If it’s not too much trouble, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, could you provide the proof?
            1. +1
              22 September 2024 17: 59
              studio proofs

              What proof! This is a very old story, long before the telegram, only the noise in the newspapers was enormous, a sea of ​​indignation and justifications.
              1. +2
                22 September 2024 18: 14
                Yes, I'm not talking about this case! I'm talking about the fusion of liberalism and radicalism ("Union of the sword and plowshare"). Are there any specific examples concerning individuals?
                1. +2
                  22 September 2024 18: 25
                  specific examples concerning individuals?

                  Well, they are making a fuss there now and can't calm down about the topic "How Nevzlin attempted on Volkov's life". I don't even read it. I read a lot at the time about how Nevzlin presented the murder of Mayor Petukhov to Khodorkovsky for his birthday. By the way, the investigation was conducted by the same liberals, but of a different shade - they are a competitive environment. And look, such respectable gentlemen. All this is disgusting and not worth attention. In comparison with all this nonsense, pyramids rule. Only time can kill them, they are not subject to anyone)))
                  1. +2
                    22 September 2024 18: 52
                    Who is Nevzlin? Who is Volkov? Excuse my naivety.
                    I asked a question in one group: "What is a "Russophobe"?" So I was pelted with "maramoys", in quantities of...
                    1. +2
                      22 September 2024 18: 55
                      What is "Russophobe"?

                      Find the answer in the Children's Encyclopedia.
                      wassat )))
                      1. +1
                        22 September 2024 19: 32
                        I will perhaps turn to the etymology of a term so widespread in the vastness of the RuNet. A Russophobe is someone who is afraid of Russians. Tell me, is anyone afraid of us?
        2. +2
          22 September 2024 19: 31
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          This is how Kizhi was built.

          In Alma-Ata, the Holy Ascension Cathedral stands, built in 1907, according to legend, without nails. In reality, they are load-bearing and sliding. In 1911, the city was completely destroyed by an earthquake. Only the cross on the Cathedral was bent. wink
  9. +1
    22 September 2024 15: 34
    I wonder if anyone has tried to X-ray these ziggurats, like the Egyptian pyramids were once X-rayed? Maybe there are no tombs there, but there are some other bookmarks? As for the shape, it reminds me more of the Don-2N than the mausoleum on Red Square. Both in the slope of the walls and in scale - the radar station in Sofrino is closer, only with the number of floors.
  10. +2
    22 September 2024 18: 34
    While quite a lot is known about the interiors of the Egyptian pyramids, I have not come across any information about them in the zigurats.
    1. +2
      22 September 2024 19: 36
      Quote: There was a mammoth
      I haven't come across any information.

      I haven't seen any either. After all, many are half destroyed. If there was something inside them, it would have opened up. But no. A friend of mine climbed a ziggurat in Iraq when he worked there as a translator. Exactly... no hints of any recesses.
  11. 0
    27 September 2024 06: 04
    The ziggurat is working!
    And only on Russians.
    With the advent of Lenin and then his ziggurat, the Russians are only losing their lands
  12. 0
    27 September 2024 06: 09
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Somehow, in my mind, radicalism and liberalism don’t fit together...

    Until 17, the Bolsheviks sometimes called themselves liberals.
    Quite radical extremists, collapse of the state, banditry, robbery, armed seizure of power, rebellion, desire for defeat in the war, cooperation with foreign countries...
    In general, it was about the same with 91
    Communists and liberals of 91 are two wings of one bird
  13. 0
    30 September 2024 07: 57
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote from: AllX_VahhaB
    And for what?

    The Kunstkamera is famous for its "special" collection of anatomical rarities and anomalies


    You might as well tell me to demolish all the cemeteries on Red Square (starting from the 14th century? ;))
  14. 0
    30 September 2024 08: 05
    Quote: Oleg133
    The ziggurat is working!
    And only on Russians.
    With the advent of Lenin and then his ziggurat, the Russians are only losing their lands


    By the way, do you know what attitude our foreign "monarchists" have towards the return of Russian lands within the framework of Crimea and the North-Eastern Military District?
    Did Maria Vladimirovna Romanova-Bagration-Mukhranskaya or Georgy Franzevich Hohenzollern-Romanov travel to liberated Crimea or Donetsk?
    Otherwise, I couldn't hear anything...
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