Granaries of the Motherland: equipment that is not yet at war

218
Granaries of the Motherland: equipment that is not yet at war
ZSU-57-2 could become a thunderstorm in the SVO drones adversary


Needs of the SVO


An outside observer cannot help but notice the absence of certain examples of Soviet weapons on the fronts of the SVO. Equipment that has long been removed from service could prove useful with some modifications. It is high time to ignore the maliciously ironic comments from the opposing side.



The Ukrainian Armed Forces are famous throughout the world for their technical zoo of outdated NATO models. The enemy's motley arsenals significantly complicate not only combat operations, but also their daily operation. Therefore, it is necessary to remove military equipment from storage and send it to the front with great caution.


BRDM-2 is not worth waiting for at the front

What is required at the SVO now?

We have to proceed from the nature of the combat operations. At the beginning of the special operation, the vulnerability of Russian equipment to shrapnel and small arms became obvious. Photos of trucks with armored cabins and bodies made of improvised materials flew around the world. The personnel were protected with whatever they could - logs, steel sheets, angles, channels, etc.

Over time, the Ukrainian Armed Forces had less artillery ammunition, and the probability of dying from it decreased significantly. The positional nature of the fighting also became decisive - equipment was used less and less for offensive actions. A palliative solution to the problem artillery hunger in the Ukrainian Armed Forces has become widespread drones for various purposes. They are not decisive in attack, but are quite effective in defense.

And this has radically changed the Russian Army's needs for military equipment. Logic dictated that just yesterday the front needed any armored equipment, including the completely outdated BRDM and BTR-60/70. Having low mobility, these vehicles quite reliably protected against fragmentation ammunition explosions at a distance and from light small arms. But now this equipment will become a burden on the front.

The Army understands this very well, and we do not see a mass restoration of armored personnel carriers and reconnaissance vehicles removed from storage. If BRDMs do appear at the front, it is mainly due to the efforts of enthusiasts. There are several reasons for this attitude towards the Soviet legacy.

Firstly, the vehicles from storage require re-engining. No one in the front-line workshops will bother with servicing and repairing the carburetor GAZ-41s installed in the BRDM. Not to mention the twin petrol ZMZ-4905s in the BTR-70.

Secondly, the spread of FPV drones has made all large and slow-moving equipment at the front very vulnerable.

As a result, the "loaf" covered with anti-drone nets, even without symbolic armor, turned out to be more effective than the BRDM restored from storage. Fast and low-visibility targets attract much less attention from drone operators than massive and slow ones. To the point that they learned to fight on motorcycles. A bonus of two-wheeled vehicles was less vulnerability to mines. At least twice as much.


Source: drive2.ru

Given the growing Russian military-industrial complex and the above-mentioned problems, light armored vehicles from storage bases will be in less and less demand. Which cannot be said about everything that shoots.

Firepower (with the appropriate ammunition, of course) always remains firepower - in 1943 and in 2024. Hence the use of "Stalin's" howitzers D-1 and D-20 at the front. In conjunction with unmanned surveillance and target designation systems, these ancient weapons become quite modern and do not burden the state budget. From the same opera and the use of naval mortars RBU-6000 "Smerch-2" in the SVO.

So it turns out that there is no need at the front for equipment that is still gathering dust in storage warehouses?

Not certainly in that way.

Bins of the Motherland


In the third year of the SVO, several questions arose regarding the staffing of front-line and rear units with equipment from storage bases.

First, why haven’t Soviet anti-aircraft installations been restored yet?

The enemy is trying to shoot down drones and even winged aircraft missiles any available weapon, and we cannot saturate the border territories, for example, with ZSU-57-2. The exact number of these machines in Russian warehouses is unknown, but from 1955 to 1960, at least 857 anti-aircraft tanksOf course, not all of them remained in their homeland.

It would be a stretch to call the ZSU-57-2 the great-grandfather of the modern “Derivation-Defense", only with the firepower of a 57-mm cannon multiplied by two. But we don't have "Derivation", but we do have ZSU-57. The ancient unit has many disadvantages. This includes the T-54 tank chassis with a limited engine life, and weak protection of the crew in the open cabin, and an exotic 57-mm cannon caliber for the army. But the "Hellish thresher", as it was nicknamed in the troops, is not intended for assault operations.

The possible role of the product in the SVO is to cover critical infrastructure facilities from heavy Ukrainian drones. The enemy will not stop there and will try to penetrate deeper into Russian territory. Light aircraft with explosives have already reached Kazan. Is Ural next?

It is precisely against such flying objects that the ZSU-57 can operate. Anti-aircraft guns will not have to travel along the front line often - in some cases they can be used as stationary firing points. All that remains is to equip the machines with modern means of observation and target tracking.


In this regard, a second question arises: why is the famous ZSU-23-4 Shilka still used so limitedly?

Quadruple 23-mm guns in Afghanistan terrified the mujahideen, smashing clay and stone shelters to pieces, which is why the vehicle received the respectful name "Shaitan-orba". But in the SVO, the "Shilka" is needed for its intended purpose - to combat enemy aircraft. Unlike the ZSU-57, the "Shilka" has a pretty decent sighting system and a radar station.

According to open sources, more than 6,5 thousand self-propelled anti-aircraft guns were produced, a considerable share of which are stored in state reserves. The potential of the obsolete machine was thought about even before the SVO - thus, in 2016, at the Army forum, a modernized version of the ZSU-23-4M4 with missile weapons and an improved fire control system was presented.

It is worth noting separately the presence of the above-mentioned systems in storage warehouses not only in Russia, but also in Belarus, as well as the DPRK and Syria. But these are just non-binding hints.

Resuscitation of the mobile air defense systems of the Soviet era will come in very handy if NATO does allow Zelensky to launch missile strikes deep into Russia. Ballistic ATACMS cannot be shot down, of course, but cruise missiles – why not? The Shilka with ZSU-57 is unlikely to become the only reliable means of combating Storm Shadow or Taurus, but the capabilities for repelling attacks will certainly increase. Especially if they work in conjunction with other air defense systems.


There is another artifact in the Russian bins that deserves attention. We are talking about the high-speed BMD-1, produced from 1968 to 1987 in the amount of 3 units.

The main advantage of the combat vehicle is its high throttle response and power-to-weight ratio. With a mass of 7,2 tons, the 5D20 engine develops 240 hp. For comparison, the honored front-line worker MTLB with similar engine power is heavier by more than two tons.

The main caliber of the BMD-1 is not of particular importance - the main emphasis in operation can be placed on the high maneuverability and dynamic qualities of the vehicle. The extended and weighted BTR-D based on the landing vehicle can also be useful at the front as a high-speed transporter.

All that remains is to meet two conditions: find the political will to de-preserve the said equipment and find it in the vast reserves of the Motherland.
218 comments
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  1. +31
    10 September 2024 04: 00
    In this regard, a second question arises: why is the famous ZSU-23-4 Shilka still used so limitedly?

    Does the author produce lamps and other spare parts for the Shilka radar? Even in Afghanistan, the radar was dismantled from it and sent away like that, and it seems that this was done not only to increase the ammunition supply. The issue with the operators for it is also open
    There is another artifact in the Russian bins that deserves attention. We are talking about the high-speed BMD-1, produced from 1968 to 1987 in the amount of 3 units.

    A blind car with no armor? Well, when the MBLTs run out, they will gradually switch to them, now this whole zoo of cars without spare parts is just a pain in the ass for a repair base, which will be in repair many times longer than on the front line
    1. +7
      10 September 2024 04: 28
      The author produces lamps and other spare parts for the Shilka radar? Even in Afghanistan, the radar was dismantled and sent away, and it seems that this was done not only to increase the ammunition supply.

      The question is obviously rhetorical. Of course, it would be possible to organize the production of a radar on a newer element base, and ideally supplement it with a video system and a laser rangefinder and a Doppler speed meter, a combat control system with an automatic computer and guidance... but purely intuitively I feel that all this is unrealistic to do in a reasonable time frame.. the last generals are being imprisoned from the Ministry of Defense, new people are only getting up to speed... By default, without knowing these people, you can't assume that they are trading one thing for another, let's think that they are honest, smart, energetic organizers, let them prove themselves!
      1. +7
        10 September 2024 05: 19
        Quote from Andy_nsk
        Of course, it would be possible to organize the production of a radar on a newer element base, and ideally supplement it with a video system and a laser rangefinder and a Doppler speed meter, a combat control system with an automatic computer and guidance...
        And it wouldn't be a bad idea to attach a radar to the ZSU-57-2 either. If there's no room on the turret, it can be mounted as a trailer, or even on a separate chassis. It won't fire on the move anyway, and where it's deployed semi-stationary, a cable connection will do just fine, and no electronic warfare can interrupt it.
        But who wants to do this, and most importantly, allocate money on their own responsibility? A lot can be done, but, as Marshal Gian Jacopo Trivulzio said to Louis XII, "War requires three things - money, money, and more money."
        1. +14
          10 September 2024 06: 16
          Quote: Nagan
          There are a lot of things that can be done

          Are you sure that we have enough design bureaus and factories to do this?
          And so - 57mm, good range, shells can be made with remote detonation - in an ideal world...
          Or is 4x23mm better than the Ukrainian M2 12,6 for fighting drones... In an ideal world...
          1. +4
            10 September 2024 09: 12
            It seems to me that the author is quite confused in technology! The same engine has different designations - ZMZ-41 is called GAZ 41 and ZMZ 4905.
            1. +3
              10 September 2024 17: 53
              Quote: spektr9
              Even in Afghanistan, the radar was dismantled from it and it was sent away like that...
              If my memory serves me right, the order for "Shilkas" without locators was from Egypt, since the Arabs were scared by American Shrikers (anti-radar missiles). In Afghanistan, as I recall, "Shilka" was mainly used against ground targets, where a locator is not needed at all.
              I personally observed how a Shilka was firing at Kabul from the Army headquarters at night (they spotted the location from where the headquarters was being shelled). A very beautiful sight.
              Army Headquarters (on the hill) The second photo of the ZSU-23-2 in its most common form and the ZSU-57-2. In my opinion, the ZSU-57-2 crew could easily perform the same tasks as the ZSU-23-2, while also keeping the crew behind armored walls in case of unexpected mortar fire, etc.
          2. AAK
            +12
            10 September 2024 12: 31
            As for shells with remote detonation (and this is not a military secret), we do not have a single more or less implemented project (this is in response to your words, colleague, about the insufficiency of design bureaus and factories), also for the ZSU-57x2 there is no more or less adapted sighting system (i.e. here, as with remote shells - start and finish, with our pace - 5-7 years of work only for the design bureau). Well, in addition to the listed, the author did not touch on the possibility and, even, the necessity of using a number of other weapons in the SVO: this includes the ZRPK "Tunguska", and the TRK "Tochka-U" ... and as for spare parts and crews for the ZSU-23x4 "Shilka", in my opinion, it is more expedient to use these ZSUs for rear facilities - enterprises, oil depots, gas transmission system facilities ... They were quite used in Afghanistan, and were removed from service after, if my memory serves, the first or second Chechen war, i.e. operators of 50-60 years of age can easily be found, and as for spare parts, if these ZSUs are still in service in the DPRK, then spare parts and repair kits can easily be found in warehouses there, and the BHVT also has ZPU/ZPU-2/ZPU-4, which are quite suitable for fighting drones in the rear.
            1. +1
              10 September 2024 16: 04
              On remotely detonated shells

              Screw it! You can make regular shrapnel
            2. +1
              12 September 2024 20: 56
              Quote: AAK
              As for shells with remote detonation (and this is not a military secret), we do not have a single more or less implemented project.....
              Manufacturers offer shells with remote detonation in both 57mm and 30mm calibers, why they are not purchased by the Army is another question. And the air detonation of a 122mm shell with striking elements was used in Afghanistan
              Derivation-PVO, projectile programming device (57mm)
              1. +1
                18 September 2024 12: 31
                Are you asking why remote detonation shells are not produced or purchased in large quantities? You know, I thought about this question for a long time, read a lot of literature about the developments. As you understand, no one explains why what has long been shown at exhibitions as pre-production samples is still not supplied to the troops. And you know, I came to a conclusion that I do not like at all. The problem, as it seems to me, is not at all in stupidity or inertia of thinking, the problem is that the true goals of the SVO differ from those declared by the authorities for us. And this explains almost everything - the nature of military operations, and constant calls for readiness for peace talks, and the stubborn reluctance to "invest" in the production of new weapons that the army really needs today. The authorities believe that to achieve their goals we will make do with what we have, and if something is not enough, volunteers will help.
          3. +1
            10 September 2024 20: 20
            Quote from tsvetahaki
            And so - 57mm, good range, shells can be made with remote detonation - in an ideal world...
            Not for anyone: no one has seen the ZSU-57-2 in iron for a long time.
            Quote from tsvetahaki
            Or is 4x23mm better than the Ukrainian M2 12,6 for fighting drones... In an ideal world...
            Not a fact: our small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery was designed for a cone of destruction: not for a direct hit from a cannon to an aircraft, but for the creation of a cone of shells, which, if hit, the aircraft is guaranteed to collide with the shell. The problem is that a UAV is much smaller than an aircraft and its collision with a shell is not at all guaranteed. And replacing the sighting devices will not solve this problem.
            1. -2
              14 September 2024 06: 07
              and a guided projectile with a controlled and directed detonation of the projectile?
              1. +2
                14 September 2024 09: 58
                Quote: Rabotyaga
                and a guided projectile with a controlled and directed detonation of the projectile?
                We don't have any like that.
        2. +3
          10 September 2024 08: 30
          And it wouldn't be a bad idea to attach a radar to the ZSU-57-2 either.
          There are only a few of them left (50-100 pieces) - under the USSR they were given to everyone from Afghanistan to Angola.
          Considering the antiquity, it makes no sense to start it.
      2. -1
        10 September 2024 07: 39
        you can integrate these in an existing system now, no need for separate radar. you need this criteria - if ukraine, which didn't produce an equipment, is using it, then the Russian producer will use it even better.
        1. +1
          10 September 2024 09: 43
          Multibag, colleague.
          The solution is to use the SMS with Derivation
          1. -3
            10 September 2024 09: 46
            the best weapon are two weapons, especially in air defense where you can be surprised anywhere and you don't choose your fights. the same criminals from the defense industry mafia came themselves with the idea of ​​replacing ks-19 with some crap when this brought them money. now, when they have to recover, not being paid, are against.
            1. +4
              10 September 2024 18: 06
              Quote: Ionescu Popa
              the
              Have respect for people, want to communicate - no problem, translate your text into Russian yourself, why should we do it for you?
              1. -2
                10 September 2024 19: 00
                i will try to put both the original and the Russian translation together. i hope google won't do a very bad job.
                1. -1
                  10 September 2024 21: 43

                  let's do the work yourself without Google, you lazy fellow
                  1. -1
                    10 September 2024 21: 53
                    it's done then, you help with the market and cleaning and i learn Russian to make u proud. vegetables for winter tomorrow? and add a few pizzas, I didn't eat one in ages.
      3. +3
        10 September 2024 08: 40
        And we don't have serial control systems for such anti-aircraft guns? We have serial Pantsir, naval anti-aircraft systems, Tunguska... The blocks are serial, they are produced.
      4. +20
        10 September 2024 09: 20
        Quote from Andy_nsk
        Of course, it would be possible to organize the production of radars using newer element bases.

        As a former awlnik, I will say that shooting at the radar guidance is a so-so option, plus a large spread and a short direct fire range of the gun. If memory serves, the percentage of hits there is around 2%. Manual guidance was mainly practiced. Therefore, the radar can be safely thrown out, which is what was done in Afghanistan. At night, it does not shoot at optics, due to the lack of NV devices. In general, if you reanimate, then change the sight and somewhere in it can be used. But there is a nuance, something tells me that we sold the granaries of the Motherland no less than Ukraine and we do not have anything in storage, except for outright scrap metal.
        1. +3
          10 September 2024 22: 04
          It does not shoot at night using optics due to the lack of NV devices.
          or maybe you can buy some hunting thermal cameras? They cost about half a million. Or there are stationary thermal imagers, screw a screen on the outside, inside the Shilka, shoot, see where it flies, draw a cross on the screen with a felt-tip pen and use
      5. +13
        10 September 2024 10: 07
        [/quote]the last generals are being imprisoned from the Ministry of Defense, new people are only just getting up to speed[quote]
        Well, you're giving us some. We've got enough generals to fill dozens of Lefortovos. And who are they putting in jail? Rear rats who only knew how to steal. They skillfully inflicted damage on the RF Armed Forces, but the benefit from them is almost zero. Their places will be taken by their own deputies. No one will even notice that a "fighter" is missing.
        1. +3
          10 September 2024 10: 49
          Well, you're amazing. We still have enough generals for dozens of Lefortovos.

          I wrote about the generals who belong to the highest command staff, who are close to the Minister of Defense and who determine the technical policy of all the RF Armed Forces. There are only about ten of them and most of them are in prison. Of those who did not lose their positions and did not sit down, I only remember Gerasimov.
          1. +7
            10 September 2024 22: 01
            No, Shoigu's 4 deputies remained in place. The most surprising person is Krivoruchko, the father of two US citizens.
          2. +7
            10 September 2024 22: 55
            They don't determine anything. Remember the army joke: "In the army, responsibilities are strictly divided. Everyone up to and including senior lieutenant must be able to work independently. A captain must be able to organize work. A major must know where what is being done.
            A lieutenant colonel must be able to report what is being done where. A colonel must be able to independently find the place in the papers where he is supposed to sign. A general must be able to independently sign where he is told."
            1. +2
              11 September 2024 04: 29
              If they didn't determine anything, they wouldn't be paid billions in bribes :((((
              1. 0
                12 September 2024 16: 48
                I am not writing about their incredible ability to abuse their official position for selfish purposes, but I am responding to the opinion expressed by a person here on the thread that our top generals "determine the technical policy of all the RF Armed Forces."
                1. 0
                  16 September 2024 02: 38
                  Exactly The top generals determine the technical policy of all the RF Armed Forces. They spent billions on personal enrichment and enrichment of affiliated structures. But they should have spent it on the development of modern means of communication, UAVs, space reconnaissance equipment, etc. And then the SVO would have been completely different... In our country (and nowhere in the world) it is impossible to develop weapons without a corresponding order from the Ministry of Defense. Or do you think that entrepreneurs will start producing reconnaissance satellites on their own initiative? The fact that they started producing UAVs on private initiative - and for this we thank entrepreneurs! But even the simplest devices are unrealistic to produce in large series without the support of the state in the person of the Ministry of Defense!
                  1. 0
                    16 September 2024 15: 42
                    Look at their age. They already have bedsores on the 5th point from sitting in office chairs for a long time. It is already hard for the top generals to think, and you are talking about them determining technical policy! They have nothing to determine with, only reflexes are left: tearing and grasping.
                    1. +1
                      16 September 2024 16: 00
                      I don't argue that the generals clearly failed to fulfill their official duties, and it's not even a matter of age, it's the wrong people in power. The new MoD is not a boy either (65 years old or so), but we can only hope that he and the generals who are being promoted now will think at least one move ahead, otherwise Russia is simply doomed.
                      1. 0
                        16 September 2024 16: 08
                        I have not heard anything about Belousov's new nominees in the General Staff. And the age of the General Staff leaders, commanders of groups plays a crucial role in modern warfare, if only because the volume of information processed, the process of quickly comprehending it and making the right decision depends on the speed of thinking, especially in extreme situations.
                      2. 0
                        16 September 2024 18: 02
                        We seemed to be talking about the Ministry of Defense, not the General Staff. I don't think that general positions in the Ministry of Defense will remain vacant for long. And in these positions, you need to think correctly, and the speed of reaction does not play a special role. The Ministry of Defense lost 20 years and did not order UAVs, cruise bombs and other modern weapons from the military industry.
                      3. 0
                        17 September 2024 11: 29
                        Oh, how everything is neglected. Google it at your leisure and you will find out that the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation is the central body of military command of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
            2. 0
              11 September 2024 08: 24
              General, it's not a rank, general, it's happiness...
              Warrant Officer Byakin N.N., senior sergeant major of the separate engineering company of KTPPO, Nakhodka.
      6. +2
        10 September 2024 11: 21
        Quote from Andy_nsk
        Of course, it would be possible to organize a release

        The whole question is release of what?
        It is hardly advisable to use the same Shilka as a ZSU now, but if there are spare parts based on the old Shilka, you can install a combat module or, at least, a modern FCS for its 4 23-mm machine guns, "wrap it in nets and "grills". You see, it could come in handy for defense against aircraft-type drones and it won't seem like a little to whip through the forest. As for mobility, war is not a race. On rough terrain, even old vehicles based on the 55-ka or a motorized vehicle are quite fast if they are used correctly. For example, do not use, as was the case in the past, self-propelled guns (even the Su-76) instead of tanks, etc.
        The same applies to the ZSU-57-2, and the BRDM, and the BTR. The main thing here is the ability to ensure technical serviceability and reliability... Without fairly serious modifications, this is hardly possible. The price of the issue... It must be counted, and by competent specialists, and not by laymen and thieves, as, unfortunately, happened.
    2. +7
      10 September 2024 04: 34
      I don’t know if there is any point in restoring the Shiloks, but they write that Poland delivered them to Ukraine both modified and in their original form.
      ZSU-23-4MP Biała is a Polish modification of the Soviet self-propelled anti-aircraft gun ZSU-23-4.
      Polish Shilkas are used in Ukraine https://mil.in.ua/en/news/polish-shilkas-are-used-in-ukraine/
      1. +12
        10 September 2024 05: 41
        Quote: smart fellow
        I don’t know if there is any point in restoring the Shiloks, but they write that Poland delivered them to Ukraine both modified and in their original form.

        There have been no unmodernized Shiloks in Poland for a long time.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +17
      10 September 2024 06: 06
      Political will you say!!!

      When will this lawlessness of heating up the frog of the Russian people stop "...During the night attack of the UAV, apartment buildings in Ramenskoye, Moscow Region were damaged. On Sportivny Proezd, apartments in the area of ​​the 11th-12th floors are burning. Firefighters are currently extinguishing the fire. An ambulance and intensive care units are on duty near the house. Unfortunately, a 9-year-old child died"

      People, is this the new normal?? When the non-obligation of the obvious - our native "Shilka" - is seriously discussed!!! This is worse than a crime, it is a mistake...

      Served in an air defense battery, ORNR ZSU-23-4 technician, 12th Guards MRP, Gvardeysk, Kaliningrad Region, 71-72.
      1. +25
        10 September 2024 06: 34
        Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
        Political will you say!!!
        The whole question is whose will it is. It was necessary to first officially recognize Bandera's power, after the coup d'etat, after 8 years of watching how the Nazis arm themselves and cleanse the pro-Russian forces. Finally, the SVO, whose "blitzkrieg" is in its third year.
        We are discussing equipment from storage bases, there is also the topic of depleting ammunition reserves. Is this being done on purpose, to ruin and bleed Russia dry? We are losing people, both our soldiers and civilians, there is wear and tear and loss of combat equipment, ammunition, and there is no end in sight to the war. Not only has Donbass not been liberated, shelling of deep Russian territories has begun, and what's more, there has been a large-scale invasion of the Kursk region. On TV there is only about victories, fireworks and holidays.
        It seems that in the finale, when only one nuclear trump card remains, the West's ultimatum will be accepted, according to which our nuclear weapons will come under external control. Our bourgeoisie will finally get the lifting of sanctions, which did not prevent the record growth of Russian billionaires by 2024, and the country will lose what was the West's main problem, the Soviet nuclear missile potential, the only one in the world that could destroy the USA.
        1. -13
          10 September 2024 14: 33
          Quote: Per se.
          It seems like in the finale, when

          It seems that behind the obsessed righteous anger there is a Bandar-log agitator hiding.
          They say they admitted it, the war has been going on for a long time, they say they are emptying the storage bases (but why do they need these bases? To store them forever, or what?
          Behind this populist chatter the main reasons are not visible. The state has lost its way in the so-called perestroika, but in fact the process began much earlier. And there were no bourgeois, by the way.
          As a result of the screw-up, much was destroyed, including the economic and military forces of the state. There was nothing left to eat as a result of the activities of those in power, except, admittedly, "Bush legs" and "Royal" alcohol.
          They have only just recovered, and not even fully, more than thirty years after perestroika and new thinking.
          That's the reason why they recognized, didn't put pressure, tried to come to an agreement, the SVO (with all of NATO, for those who don't understand) has been going on for a long time. With all the costs, without which there is no war, as Comrade Stalin used to say. Under him, the costs were greater than now.
          It’s easy to stink up righteous slogans from the couch (to bring grist to the enemy’s mill), but it’s more difficult to concretely help the front, even in small ways.
          But still, despite the opinions of individual comrades, the enemy will be defeated, victory will be ours!
          1. +7
            10 September 2024 14: 44
            Quote: Alekseev
            It seems that behind the obsessed righteous anger there is a Bandar-log agitator hiding.
            Here, don't try to talk me into banderlogs here. Who are you for now? At least I haven't become a former communist, and I swore an oath once, to the Soviet people.
            You say that there were no bourgeois by 1991, there were those who wanted to become them, to get into this very bourgeoisie, for a "jar of jam" and a "pack of cookies". Don't talk about the sofa either, you are unlikely to be in the tank yourself now. Think better, Alexey, how under sanctions and military actions our oligarchs are getting rich, and ordinary entrepreneurs are going bankrupt. You are an officer, why do we need propaganda for our correct government, what is on TV is enough. We will undoubtedly win, the enemy will be defeated, but with people's power and renewed socialism.
            1. 0
              2 December 2024 09: 39
              But, in essence, you haven't answered the opponent's main thesis. And it is that the personnel for perestroika were raised inside the USSR and, moreover, inside the CPSU. It's not possible to put everything on the bourgeoisie.
          2. +5
            11 September 2024 01: 39
            Recovered???? What recovered, science, industry, education?! Or do you consider what you bought abroad with the proceeds from selling raw materials development? Well then I'll say this - I had dinner today, probably this is development, only tomorrow it will end up in the toilet.
    5. +3
      11 September 2024 08: 29
      Actually, there are several options for upgrading "Shilkas" - already on a solid-state element base. Including in Belarus, they also attach 8 "needles". There is no possibility to do it ourselves, it was possible to order from the Belarusians two years ago and they would gradually increase the output to industrial volumes.
    6. 0
      11 September 2024 17: 16
      Modernization no?
      Of course, the Shilka is too big for drones; you need something with a smaller bullet and a range of two kilometers.
  2. +10
    10 September 2024 04: 00
    find the political will to de-preserve the specified equipment
    If this technique is still relevant, then why not use it?!
    1. +12
      10 September 2024 04: 23
      yes, probably everything in the 90s passed through the hands of comrade Buta and has long been hanging around somewhere near Oshakati in Ovamboland
      1. -1
        10 September 2024 10: 01
        also a good friend of romania, doing its business of dismantling the Russian stocks from the bucharest military airport. apparently in russia being from the army doesnt always mean being from the country.
    2. 0
      10 September 2024 08: 35
      If this technique is still relevant, then why not use it?!
      And what is the relevance of the ZSU 57? The quantity is tiny, the shells are at least 50 years old, there are no specialists, no radar...
      1. +3
        10 September 2024 08: 50
        Quote: your1970
        And what is the relevance of ZSU 57?

        This is called - not from a good life! And it's not about relevance, but about necessity....
        1. -1
          10 September 2024 08: 56
          It's not about relevance, but about necessity...
          There is no need for it - it is a piece of cannon fodder, nothing more. Even if you weld its roof shut... You might as well shoot at UAVs with 1812 cannons.
          There are no remotely detonated shells in principle + there are no shells as such, no radar, no engines, nothing.
          Shooting at drones with it is the same as shooting at them with a tank.
          Moreover, there is a version that they were all cut up for metal back in the early 1980s.
          If we were talking about Shilki, yes, even though everything is ancient, it can be restored.
          1. +1
            10 September 2024 14: 32
            Quote: your1970
            There are no shells with remote detonation in principle + there are no shells as such

            I can't understand this at all! How is that possible? The US solved this problem back in WW2, but we still haven't... It's much more effective to pound infantry in trenches with such shells than to use contact detonation, to plough up the soil into craters. But we still don't have them.
            1. 0
              10 September 2024 16: 09
              I can't understand this at all! How is that possible? The US solved this problem back in WW2, but we still haven't... It's much more effective to pound infantry in trenches with such shells than to use contact detonation, to plough up the soil into craters. But we still don't have them.
              -
              Well, remote control tubes have been known for a couple of hundred years - but for some reason the Soviet/Russian generals and the Soviet/Russian industry decided that we don’t need this.
              It might be because of the high cost.
              I swear to God I don't know why...
              1. 0
                10 September 2024 16: 16
                Quote: your1970
                - this is a question for the apologists of the idea that "the USSR did NOT only make galoshes."
                Well, remote control tubes have been known for a couple of hundred years - but for some reason the Soviet/Russian generals and the Soviet/Russian industry decided that we don’t need this.
                It might be because of the high cost.
                I swear to God I don't know why...

                The USSR did not only make galoshes - that's for sure. There is no need to shift the blame here. Let's assume that at the time when the USSR was able to develop and produce such shells, the types of targets had already changed significantly since the Great Patriotic War, for example, they became supersonic and high-altitude, and it was pointless to use them for air defense. At the same time, missiles with homing heads began to appear. And there were no cheap and slow-moving UAVs in principle. And now it's a completely different matter. And this issue has been studied and worked out in the Air Defense Derivation. Another question is why we haven't seen this in series and in the voiks on the BD yet? In Soviet times, for some reason I am sure, this issue would have been closed in a couple of years, especially in wartime.
                1. 0
                  10 September 2024 16: 27
                  Let's assume that at the time when the USSR was able to develop and produce such projectiles, the types of targets had already changed significantly since the Second World War, for example, they became supersonic and high-altitude, and it was pointless to use them for air defense.
                  That's why, at the request of the military, they made a Shilka for them. There were no goals type did not have.
                  And for such ABSENT They hit either 5 or 6 targets.
                  At the same time, in Germany they were making Cheetahs with similar characteristics.
                  They also apparently didn’t know that “there are no targets”

                  In Soviet times, for some reason I am sure, this issue would have been closed within a couple of years, especially during wartime.
                  Pffff .....
                  And what prevented the issue from being closed for Shilka, for example, in 30 years?
                  They stamped out a lot of Shiloks, but couldn't produce any shells?
                  1. 0
                    11 September 2024 09: 25
                    Quote: your1970
                    And for such ABSENT purposes they slapped together either 5 or 6 of them.

                    The Shilkas only confirm the lack of targets for anti-aircraft artillery at that time. For some reason, those Shilkas were used only against the Mujahideen on the soil of Afghanistan. I have not even heard of any cases of their use against helicopters.
                    Quote: your1970
                    At the same time, in Germany they were making Cheetahs with similar characteristics.
                    They also apparently didn’t know that “there are no targets”

                    And they also remained unclaimed until the Geraniums appeared in the sky 404))) Even cruise missiles with these Gepards and Shilkas are almost impossible to shoot down.
                    Quote: your1970
                    And what prevented them from closing the issue for Shilka, for example, in 30 years? They churned out Shilkas, but couldn't get rid of the shells?
                    Couldn't, or didn't consider it necessary - that's the main question. Now this question is not on the agenda, now it is very necessary. But there is no Air Defense Derivation in the troops.
        2. -3
          10 September 2024 08: 56
          And it's not about relevance, but about necessity....

          Modern tanks have very delicate sensitive observation and aiming devices and it is enough for a 57-mm shell to hit the turret and the tank becomes blind. And of course, twin rapid-fire 57-mm guns would be very good if they had shells with a controlled detonation. But the Shch-271 canister shot with 300 bullets and an effective firing range of up to 200 meters with a spread of 40 meters would be good against UAVs.
          1. +3
            10 September 2024 09: 17
            Everything you have is just a horse in a spherical vacuum. And what, is there complete confidence that a modern tank will not see the "carrier" of 57 mm shells first and from, for example, 120 mm will make not only observation devices worse?
            1. -2
              10 September 2024 09: 25
              What, is there complete certainty that a modern tank will not see the "carrier" of 57 mm shells first and, for example, 120 mm will make things worse not only for observation devices?

              Well, judging by the shooting in the hothouse conditions of tank biathlon with targets at a distance of 1,8 km, the ZSU will hit the tank faster. Moreover, no one is forcing the ZSU57 to go in the front ranks
          2. +2
            10 September 2024 09: 56
            It is enough for a 57mm shell to hit the turret and the tank becomes blind. and a tank shell hitting a ZSU made of tin will make it not only blind, but also dead.
          3. -3
            10 September 2024 10: 00
            But the Shch-271 canister shot with 300 bullets and an effective firing range of up to 200 meters with a spread of 40 meters would also be good against UAVs.

            Knowingly rubbish - if you try to use it as object precisely because of MINOR effective shooting distances.
            And in the first echelon this is a tiny range - just to protect ourselves
            1. +3
              10 September 2024 10: 05
              And in the first echelon this is a tiny range - just to protect ourselves

              Well, 12 gauge is better.
              1. -2
                10 September 2024 10: 12
                Well, 12 gauge is better.
                What?
                Size? A barn with an open tower?
                Range? 100 meters and some change?
                With a rate of fire of 4 charges? 4 will shoot down the UAV and 5 will hit - while the crew is reloading...
                Maneuverability? Compared to a fighter?

                There is no place for it either in the front, or in the second echelon, or in the air defense facility.
      2. +3
        10 September 2024 09: 47
        Actually, the UOR-281 issue was restored and, as I understand, with AR. A palliative, of course, but whether there is an MFS - I don't know.
        The radar can be a battery command post, other fire control systems are requested from the Derivation.
      3. +1
        10 September 2024 22: 09
        The relevance may be in shooting at ground targets. Similar shells were used in the SVO, but with the S-60. But this, of course, is for brave fighters. And as an anti-aircraft gun without serious investments, it is useless, it is easier to finish the derivation
        1. -2
          10 September 2024 22: 51
          The relevance may be in shooting at ground targets. Similar shells were used in the SVO, but with the S-60. But this, of course, is for brave fighters.
          For shooting at what targets are they not enough?
          And yes, do you want to revive the formula "The longer the barrel, the closer to death"©?
          1. +1
            11 September 2024 02: 19
            Quote: your1970
            For shooting at what targets are they not enough?

            yes, approximately the same as those used by carnations, nonas and other phloxes. The projectile will be smaller, but the rate of fire will be higher. In the mentioned guns, the fighters risk similarly
  3. +27
    10 September 2024 04: 10
    And 5 years ago they were talking about something that has no analogues in the world... And now we have a loaf, a ZSU, and a BDM-1, so to speak, back to the future. With the right modernization of equipment, and most importantly, timely, we would now be discussing the use of "outdated" equipment that is now at the front, but in the end we have what we have, and there is no one to even ask why this is so.....
    1. +5
      10 September 2024 06: 18
      Quote from turembo
      And now we have a loaf, a ZSU, and a BDM-1, so to speak, back to the future.

      So they are "unparalleled in the world" after being weighed...
      1. +1
        10 September 2024 09: 09
        Quote from tsvetahaki
        "having no analogues in the world"

        Because they have not existed in the world for a long time!
        I saw a photo of a ZIL-157, and they explained to me in simple terms that an old horse won't ruin a furrow...
        Quote from tsvetahaki
        And now we have a loaf,
        And they asked not to send Patriot!
        1. +1
          10 September 2024 19: 07
          Quote from Uncle Lee

          Because they have not existed in the world for a long time!

          Regarding "having no analogues"...
          Remember Uncatchable Joe and why he's so elusive? fellow
          It's about the same in many cases...
  4. +5
    10 September 2024 04: 16
    What is "political will" or "political captivity" remains a mystery....

    In fact, Russia's top politician is not even a member of any political party. And he is not subordinate to any Russian organization at all.... Maybe only the Russian Orthodox Church, since "everything is under God." ... Unlike the leaders of the West and the East
    So, it is precisely the will that is present in abundance.
  5. +17
    10 September 2024 04: 42
    All that remains is to meet two conditions: find the political will to de-preserve the said equipment and find it in the vast reserves of the Motherland.

    Political will should have been sought in the early 2000s, when the war in the North Caucasus revealed all the shortcomings of military equipment, and during the appointment of people who had NOTHING to do with military service as defense ministers. It is thanks to such pseudo-professionals that the remains of former military equipment with all its shortcomings, such as fuel in the form of A-72, radio tubes and missing automatics, are stored "in perpetual storage" in the vast expanses of our country. Instead of developing and mass-producing popular equipment, for which the state has neither money nor manpower, we are asked to remember the caches that are still "a pity" to send to be melted down, or maybe they are listed on someone's balance sheet...
    Bravo! This is the real political will of United Russia...
    1. +14
      10 September 2024 11: 32
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Political will had to be sought in the early 2000s, when the war in the North Caucasus revealed all the shortcomings of military equipment, and during the appointment of people who had NO connection to military service as ministers of defense. It is thanks to such pseudo-professionals that the remains of former military equipment with all its shortcomings, such as fuel in the form of A-72, radio tubes, and missing automatics, are stored "in perpetual storage" in the vast expanses of our country.

      Ahem... actually, before the appointment as Minister of Defense of a person who has NO connection whatsoever with military service, all these relics of the Soviet era served in front-line units. And only under the furniture maker were they finally handed over to warehouses.
      Remember 08.08.08 and the bald T-62 tanks from the 42nd Motorized Rifle Division that arrived in South Ossetia - by the way, a division on constant combat readiness?

      At the same time, T-55AMs were running in the Far East.
      The same issue with army UAVs was also raised with the furniture maker. Normal UAVs, not the horror in the form of "Tipchak" - a short-range UAV (40 km) with a line TV camera (!) and 4 regular "Kamaz" trucks for 6 UAVs.
      And then the impulse dried up - and the army rested on its laurels, continuing to receive orders from Serdyukov and boasting at exhibitions of yet another one-off having no analogues in the world.
      1. 0
        10 September 2024 23: 02
        this war was prepared long time ago...
        This war was prepared long ago...
    2. +2
      10 September 2024 23: 32
      Quote: ROSS 42
      people who have NOTHING to do with military service

      Why does everyone stubbornly write this untruth about Serdyukov? He was serving his term and therefore saw right through the gentlemen officers and knew the full value of their reports and reports to the top.
      1. -2
        11 September 2024 05: 03
        Quote: Yaroslav Tekkel
        Why does everyone stubbornly write this untruth about Serdyukov?

        Ah! Yes, yes, yes... How could I forget... Serdyukov is a great commander! From a private straight to the Minister of Defense... Somewhere I have already read about a corporal who became the Reich Chancellor...
    3. +1
      11 September 2024 02: 24
      Quote: ROSS 42
      during the appointment of people as Ministers of Defense who have NOTHING to do with military service. It is thanks to such pseudo-professionals that

      So they said many correct things, which would be hard to argue with. But when Alexander "Blue Thief" Yakovlevich lives inside, then things don't go beyond talk, and the money is stolen.
  6. +9
    10 September 2024 05: 22
    It is possible to use the Shilka for rear area protection by upgrading the fire control system in a short time. And by putting the turret on the base of at least a Kamaz. If only there was a will. But there is a problem with it, and you can groan and whine for a long time
    1. -2
      10 September 2024 09: 36
      It would be possible to place Shilkas in the Kursk region. This would be both protection against UAVs and against light armored vehicles in case of a breakthrough. The Belarusians are transferring Tunguskas to the Ukrainian border. I think they can be found in storage warehouses in Russia as well.
    2. +4
      10 September 2024 10: 15
      Don't you feel sorry for the KamAZ? And it will flip over when shooting at 90 degrees
      1. 0
        10 September 2024 14: 34
        Shilka weight 21 tons, Kamaz weight 16 tons. You can also use lowering stops or skids
        1. +2
          10 September 2024 19: 05
          KAMAZ has a higher center of gravity, narrower track. A minibus and a sports car can have comparable weights, but the minibus will be more wobbly due to its high center of gravity. And supports or skids eliminate fire while moving.
          1. 0
            11 September 2024 17: 23
            Do you need it right away? Shilka also only hammers from short stops tacto
            1. 0
              11 September 2024 17: 36
              Well, to brake, shoot and move again is not the same as to brake, get out, spread your paws, hang on them, shoot, drop, fold your paws, move. The difference in time is two orders of magnitude
              1. 0
                12 September 2024 06: 24
                Well, I would argue about the two orders. But the main task is still object air defense, more or less, especially temporary. In Saratov, the Basmachi even put AZP 57 on the track
  7. +13
    10 September 2024 05: 31
    My heart bleeds when I drive past the training airfield of the former military school and see abandoned, forgotten and half-dismantled planes, their noses pitifully buried in the runway. These are also the granaries of our Motherland, which was very unlucky with its heavy-drinking owner, who drank away everything that was in these granaries...
    1. +37
      10 September 2024 06: 15
      It has been 25 years since the “master” changed, which is about 3 times longer than the reign of the “drinker”... something doesn’t add up...
      1. -6
        10 September 2024 06: 48
        Quote: parma
        It's been 25 years since the "owner" changed.
        Everything has already been stolen before us...©
      2. +3
        10 September 2024 10: 16
        I remembered a joke about a man and the tsarist power in 82
  8. +15
    10 September 2024 05: 38
    In addition to political will, real specialists are also needed to restore equipment, because the irreplaceable ones cannot cope.
    As for the ZSU-57-2 and Shilok, they do not have ammunition with remote detonation. The target can only be hit by a direct hit. The idea for covering rear facilities is so-so, because a bunch of shells will fall on the heads of citizens. It is unlikely that they will be happy about this.
    1. +6
      10 September 2024 06: 16
      Quote: antiaircrafter
      a bunch of shells will fall on the heads of citizens
      Don't the shells have self-destruction? Although, I could be wrong. And even with self-destruction, getting caught in a rain of shrapnel is still a pleasure.
      1. +3
        10 September 2024 06: 59
        These don't have any, just like remote detonation.
    2. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 57
      nothing what cannibalization cannot do; plus, the spare parts are there, and operations like changing the engine are not necessary, but very profitable and a good excuse to keep the production low.
  9. +21
    10 September 2024 05: 39
    Unfortunately, VO periodically publishes authors who have very little understanding of what they are writing about.
    Quote from the text of the article:
    It would be a stretch to call the ZSU-57-2 the great-grandfather of the modern "Derivation-PVO", only with the firepower of the 57-mm cannon multiplied by two. But we don't have "Derivation", but we do have the ZSU-57.... The possible role of the product in the SVO is to cover critical infrastructure facilities from heavy drones


    Unlike the S-60 with towed AZP-57, the ZSU-57-2 did not have a gun guidance radar, and firing data was determined visually and entered manually. In this regard, the ZSU-57-2 had extremely low effectiveness against air targets and could only conduct barrage fire. Even by the standards of the 50s and 60s, this anti-aircraft self-propelled gun did not meet the requirements of military air defense.

    Next:
    The exact number of these vehicles in Russian warehouses is unknown, but from 1955 to 1960, at least 857 anti-aircraft tanks were produced in Omsk.

    The author, who wished to remain anonymous, does not have access to annually updated reference books on equipment and weapons in different countries? In our country, the last ZSU-57-2 were removed from storage, converted into tractors or dismantled for scrap in the early 80s.

    Next:
    Why is the famous ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" still used so limitedly?
    Production of these machines ceased in 1982, and most of those that remain are extremely worn out.
    Next:
    Unlike the ZSU-57, the Shilka has a quite decent sighting system and radar station.

    Perhaps the author should study in more detail the RPK-2 radio instrument complex, its capabilities, element base and to what extent it meets modern requirements?

    Next:
    In 2016, at the Army forum, a modernized version of the ZSU-23-4M4 with missile weapons and an improved fire control system was presented.
    The ZSU-23-4M4 modification looks quite decent and is capable of solving many tasks. Another thing is that for the then leadership of the Laotian Ministry of Defense, mass modernization and major repairs of the "Shilka" turned out to be of no interest.

    Next:
    There is another artifact in the Russian bins that deserves attention. We are talking about the high-speed BMD-1

    The surviving machines of this type were and are used. Another thing is that there are not many of them left.
    1. Des
      +4
      10 September 2024 08: 30
      Quote: Bongo
      The author wished to remain anonymous

      Quote: Bongo
      Maybe to the author

      )))"author" to the studio!
      In fact, VO doesn't have many authors. And they are recognizable by the first paragraphs and even earlier).
      Perhaps they forgot to indicate the author here (as a joke, the letter Ы can be replaced with И))
      And the topic is relevant.
  10. -1
    10 September 2024 05: 50
    If the BMD and BRDM are another matter, a pain in the ass with repairs and not much use, then with the ZSU it is really strange, they would be very useful, at least against drones, the Ukrainian Armed Forces actively use Leopards and with good efficiency
    1. +2
      10 September 2024 23: 42
      The Gepard is initially younger than the Shilka, a higher class, and has been modernized much more actively during its service.
  11. +7
    10 September 2024 05: 55
    Firstly, the vehicles from storage require re-engining. No one in the front-line workshops will bother with servicing and repairing the carburetor GAZ-41s installed in the BRDM. Not to mention the twin petrol ZMZ-4905s in the BTR-70.

    Strange, will there be any with injectors? Modern engines are less repairable than old carburetor ones. There is nothing terrible about a carburetor. And if I were offered a choice for a run in a deserted area between a carburetor or an electronic injection car, I would choose a carburetor and a crooked "starter".
  12. +3
    10 September 2024 06: 07
    Well, let's burn out all the "non-space" technology into the fields, so that the impudent and others can gloat again... wink
    Although, I don't give a damn about them!!! But without MODERNIZATION and repair, old equipment will add hassle... TO MANY, but as for the efficiency of that equipment, this needs to be seriously looked into in general.
    The situation, the specifics of what military actions are taking place, how they are taking place, what countermeasures the enemy is using... this must be taken into account very seriously and cannot be overcome by force or by a wave!
    Although, it is probably possible to use a shaft, but do we have this shaft, what losses will there be, this is also a serious question...
    In general, if you don’t check, you won’t know... but no one wants to check anymore, they won’t dare.
    1. +16
      10 September 2024 08: 31
      It is interesting to see how over time, as the SVO progresses, the statements here on VO change. At first, there was simply a chorus of ridicule about the equipment that Western countries were massively transferring to Ukraine - they say it is outdated, good for nothing, but our equipment is - "Wow! It will show everyone! It has no analogues in the world, the defeat of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is just around the corner and victory will be quick." A year passed and the chorus of ridicule abated, as did the unhealthy delight, especially after the reverse offensives, the alignment of the front, the relocation to improved positions, and after the photos of T-62 tanks, etc. in the special operation zone, voices began to sound that this was all quite normal, they were not that outdated, they say there was a lot of ammunition for them, nowhere to put it and, like, good artillery, better than nothing, etc. and in general, the strategy of "unwinding" and wearing out the enemy was adopted, we will grind up all the Armed Forces of Ukraine now and then.... Timid objections on the topic of "grinding", that "two stones rub together - both wear out" and the Western military potential is much higher, were drowned out by "minuses" and the fact that, supposedly, our defense industry produces so much equipment and we have so many volunteers that there is nothing to be afraid of and in general - those at the top know better. The third year is underway and what do we see? The SVO is already being conducted on Russian territory, and it is proposed to rake out any old junk from warehouses, as long as it somehow moves and shoots, to conjure it up and send it to the front line or somewhere else - supposedly this is not "old junk" but fully combat-ready equipment and weapons - everything for victory. The question is, where is the new equipment that is allegedly being mass-produced at a huge number of supposedly already operating military factories, working, as they said, in "three shifts" and fully providing for the army? The level of production of the modern military-industrial complex and its developments can be judged by the latest exhibition "Army 2024", what was presented there, with rare exceptions, does not inspire optimism. And it is still unknown how much time lies ahead. It is even "scary" to think how the opinion here will change in another year, or two, or ...
      1. +2
        10 September 2024 09: 40
        even now they said this to stop it, they have no intention to supply the front adequately.
        1. 0
          10 September 2024 11: 47
          Everything is known through comparison, based on the results of events... and it’s good if the right decisions are made.
      2. +9
        10 September 2024 10: 21
        It is interesting to see how two and a half years ago the red line that people were afraid to cross was the transfer of a wonder weapon in the form of Javelins.
      3. +8
        10 September 2024 11: 06
        In general, we are beginning to understand and see clearly that the war of attrition is about us...
        Not about Ukraine, but specifically about us.
        1. +5
          11 September 2024 02: 35
          It took you 2,5 years to understand this? Those who didn't have rose-colored glasses, understood what was going on within a week after the start of the SVO. True, such people were mercilessly downvoted and banned, but oh well.
          1. -1
            11 September 2024 12: 50
            I've never been a huge patriot...
            I know very well the level of the number of personnel and the amount of equipment in the USA and NATO countries.
            I know the state of our military-industrial complex enterprises locally.
            I also know the level of equipment of the design bureau and the people working there.
            I don't believe in any "unique in the world" thing, because it has nowhere to come from. There is simply no base for it. None.

            Therefore, everything that happens does not cause anything other than the suspension of another check mark on the checklist.
      4. +4
        10 September 2024 11: 45
        Let's assume that different opinions were expressed before... Now, as a result of current events, a turn is taking place, people have started listening to those who spoke the truth, and not chewed pink snot...
    2. +1
      10 September 2024 09: 43
      even the worst of them is better than nothing. a brdm is better than an uaz or a motorcycle. an old small cannon is better than the best pistol. an incendiary rocket launcher is better than two soldiers shooting their guns against a building.
      1. +2
        10 September 2024 11: 49
        In addition to technology, we need those who can use it effectively, who will have everything necessary to set things up correctly, and unfortunately, not everything is fine with this.
        1. +3
          10 September 2024 18: 49
          older guys who were active then and people with close preoccupations, like professional drivers; or current military spread thin among these, like 1 to 3. it will be a bit harder for mechanics, but specializing one for each piece, with manuals and maybe a 3d printer for pieces that really miss will solve it. russians are good with repairs, you just need to separate those with mechanical profile and send them to the workshops - in such a war, they are the most precious.

          the older guys who were active back then and people with similar interests, like professional drivers or current military, are split evenly between them, about 1 to 3. The mechanics will be a little more difficult, but if you assign a specialist to each part, with instructions and maybe a 3D printer for the parts that really don't fit, that will solve the problem. The Russians are good at repairs, you just need to separate those with a mechanical profile and send them to the workshops - in a war like this, they are the most valuable.
    3. +4
      10 September 2024 13: 54
      Depends on what you compare it to.
      I suppose the border guards of Kursk and Belgorod were happy with the Shilkam with optical guidance and a tractor driver at the controls.
      Yes, there are problems with the effects of time, spare parts, etc.
      But if a boar attacks me, I would rather hold a spear in my hands now than wait for the experts to finish discussing the advantages and disadvantages of buckshot versus bullets before deciding to start producing and supplying guns.
      Useful antiques do not necessarily have to be sent to the LBS, but they will be in great demand where there is no provision at all.
      1. 0
        10 September 2024 14: 26
        Well, yes, there will be room and work for a lot of things.
        Any task must be approached with intelligence and diligence.
      2. +1
        10 September 2024 18: 58
        people said that the big wagner losses in bahmut would have been solved if they had even old armour, because they were never able to create a deciding assault force. and the approach should be the opposite from the article - recover as many types of vehicles, to work faster and select the best. you can't talk about bmd and ignore btr50 or pt 76. and the logistical problems could be solved if you send the same technic (also artillery, radars, missiles, planes) in the same region until you exhaust the ammunition and spare parts. when you will see them, you won't let them go. during the 1989 revolution, the romanian tankers still preferred the robust t55 than the more modern romanian models.
        people said that wagner's big losses at bakhmut would have been solved if they had at least some old armor because they never managed to create a decisive striking force. and the approach should be the opposite of what the article says - rebuild as many types of vehicles as possible to work faster and choose the best ones. you can't talk about bmd and ignore btr50 or pt76. and the logistic problems could be solved if you sent the same vehicles (and artillery, radars, missiles, planes) to the same region until the ammunition and spare parts run out. once you see them, you won't let them go. during the 1989 revolution romanian tank crews still preferred the reliable t55s to the more modern romanian models.
  13. +4
    10 September 2024 06: 15
    And where does the author propose to get resources (money, workers, production capacity) for his plans?
    Given the current state of the military-industrial complex, only remove from other areas. From which ones?
    Organizing from scratch, as well as restoring the old (it is not yet known which is more difficult) - will take a long time. A very long time. Two or three years, if without executions, and a year with executions.

    Apparently, those “at the top” understand this, and such deadlines do not conflict with the plans of the SVO.
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 39
      the defense industry mafia runs a budget bigger than the national one, so the money is the last problem. as for the infrastructure and people, the old repair factories and even a transport repair base can help. it's very easy to solve it, but very hard for the gay defense mafia to give up any kopeek.
      1. 0
        10 September 2024 10: 27
        That's almost right.
        But we have what we have.
        So we have no free resources.
        And have to choose what we need more right now.
        1. 0
          10 September 2024 10: 34
          you are the russian/soviet/tsarist army; not the worst, not the best either. you won your wars when you had enough cavalry - horses, armor etc., supported by artillery at least in reasonable numbers. if you don't comb the vehicle parks you lose the only big advantage which guarantees the victory alone. recovering and greasing old vehicles is faster, cheaper and durable - the parts might fall, but the whole not so much.
  14. -8
    10 September 2024 06: 23
    First of all, we urgently need to create an automatic turret based on two machine guns 12,7 and 7,62, come up with a fire control system, automatic reloading, radar, with 8K cameras and a thermal imager and combine all this into one system and a combat information and control system with, as we can now say, AI and things will go well, and it can be installed everywhere and on any equipment hi
  15. +7
    10 September 2024 06: 28
    Are you sure that all this is stored in reality and not on paper? After 24.02, many things turned out not quite as they should be.
    1. +6
      10 September 2024 08: 42
      Are you sure that all this is stored in reality and not on paper? After 24.02, many things turned out to be not quite as they should be
      The author is simply not aware that the ZSU 57 was dismantled for scrap metal by the damned capitalism more BEFORE 24.02. - at the beginning 1980-x.
      Since this complex did not meet the air defense requirements even of the late 1950s...
    2. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 35
      the huge fields of mothballed armor and artillery are there, they are photographed from satellite every year and, if you didn't hear huge explosions, the ammunition too. when the stocks say 2000 pieces, you can find minimum 1500, of which 1000 are working well.
  16. +1
    10 September 2024 06: 38
    North Korea, according to Wikipedia, had over 100 ZSU-23-4s as of 2000, and the DPRK is listed as a former operator of these vehicles. Although the DPRK industry has produced thousands of MANPADS, I think anti-aircraft artillery is still in demand due to the terrain. During the Korean War, KPA soldiers hunted American piston-engine Mustangs (F-51D) by stretching steel cables between the tops of hills and installing quadruple machine gun mounts there. Currently, the South Korean Air Force has over 170 F-5s in service as attack aircraft, and the United States maintains 24 A-10s in Korea.
    If the ZSU-23-4 are in service, then they are probably modified and spare parts and ammunition are produced for them. In this case, the Koreans will not sell them to Russia, but they can repair and modify the "Shilkas" at their factories, which are stored in large quantities (?) in Russia, and also supply shells for them. They can be used to protect ammunition depots and oil depots/refineries. In the latter case, the crews can be formed from departmental security or territorial defense.
  17. +8
    10 September 2024 06: 47
    And who is the author of this opus? Are you ashamed of what you wrote? The article somehow contradicts the neighboring one, there is a leitmotif that we do not need Iranian and Korean weapons, we have enough of our own, here it is already crawling into the bins, decide on the direction, otherwise it is like in Krylov's fable
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 54
      it's a group of authors, connected to this text by their patriotism, honesty and generosity, not necessarily in that order.
  18. BAI
    +1
    10 September 2024 07: 19
    As a result, the “loaf” covered with anti-drone nets, even without symbolic armor, turned out to be more effective than the BRDM restored from storage.

    I saw a loaf of bread recently. The entire left side is riddled with shrapnel, like a sieve. But it moves. Did the driver at least survive?
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 32
      the principle survived, and thats important - "a loaf is better than armour". signed, the wallets of dumin and serdyukov.
  19. -9
    10 September 2024 08: 03
    Why not? ZSU 2x57 equipped with electric drives, as well as the 57mm gun of the S-60 complex connected by a cable to the optical-electronic PUAZO S-60 is a completely applicable, even in modern conditions, stationary air defense system. And in general, the battery of the S-60 complex includes 6 AZP 57 mm, two ZSU 2x57, 1 large-caliber machine gun mount ZPU 14,5 x4, optical-electronic PUAZO and SRC. The dome with a diameter of 10 km is impregnable for any targets, and the drones - the PUAZO operator, through 24x optics visually observes. The only problem is the lamps in the tube amplifiers of the drives of both the guns and the PUAZO and SRC. There are three types of them. Can't we restore the not yet forgotten technology and organize their production?
    1. +1
      10 September 2024 09: 18
      They don't need these lamps there, there are no problems at all with linear drives for various purposes, the speed of movement and accuracy in coordinate and linear grids up to a micron, machine tool builders are aware of it...
      1. 0
        10 September 2024 09: 30
        understand, they want to lose this war, to go back in summer cruises. deripaska was in Japan just yesterday.
    2. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 30
      they have more than enough in stocks too, and so they have ammunition.
    3. +2
      10 September 2024 09: 40
      ZSU 2x57 equipped with electric drives

      No, it has an electro-hydraulic drive.
      The gun was aimed using electro-hydraulic drives powered by a constant-speed electric motor via a hydraulic speed regulator. The horizontal aiming speed was 30°, and the vertical aiming speed was 20° per second[4]. In the event of an electric drive failure, manual aiming was still possible: the vehicle commander was responsible for horizontal aiming, and the gunner for vertical aiming. The gun was fed from a 4-round box magazine.
  20. +5
    10 September 2024 08: 25
    Nobody wants to do anything. It's easier to shoot down drone debris with oil depots and civilians.
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 29
      the number and strategy of the weapons are very good, just that they don't serve any purpose. but it's not their fault, blame the purpose.
  21. -4
    10 September 2024 08: 28
    Could it be useful in Kursk region? To close the border.
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 25
      no, bcz they might bring a contribution there. the men were very clear - far away, in Siberia and far east.
  22. -2
    10 September 2024 08: 57
    The revival of the mobile air defense systems of the Soviet era will come in very handy if NATO does allow Zelensky to launch missile strikes deep into Russia.

    let's say it this way - it will be too late.

    already now, as stated in the article/note, it has been observed for more than one day -
    It is necessary to provide cover for critical infrastructure facilities from heavy Ukrainian drones.

    It is also correctly noted:
    The enemy will not stop there and will try to penetrate deeper into Russian territory. Light aircraft with explosives have already reached Kazan.


    And there are railways and communications, bridges, airports, oil refineries and the same military units with specialist people.
  23. +3
    10 September 2024 09: 13
    "The Motherland's Granaries: Equipment That Isn't Fighting Yet"
    If the equipment in the photo starts fighting, it will be the Spanish shame of the "homeland" with its tank biathlons and "the second army in the world" with "80% of modern weapons".
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 23
      we cant allow russia win, of course, what would our friends in monaco and cyprus say when we spend the summers there?
  24. 0
    10 September 2024 09: 20
    the article is not signed, meaning it came directly from the mafia controlling both the defense industry and the ministry of defense, that, after so many months of war, want to finish russia quick, bcz they already miss the gay parties in romania with geoana and nastase. there are counter-arguments for all the things the mafia press release says, but it would help if they would take themselves seriously first instead of coming with something at the level of a special needs children school. for this, don't even waste your time to address individual arguments, at most entire categories of them: so "recovering military technology", like ukraine and the whole nato do (see their extensive network of deposits) "cant be done bcz" : - the enemy might fight them, the engines might break and we dont want to repair them, motorcycles are safer than the armor etc. these arguments are not for consideration, just for fun. and even funnier is the conclusion - of hundreds of models in storage, their little black treasonous hearts can make only three concessions - zsu 23 and 57 (but very deep in russia, bcz they want to make sure these will be used for what they do with average performace - air defense - and not what they do better: perimeter ofense and defense, to which they add bmd 1, the weakest thing that can be called armor, with aluminum walls and a very small machine gun, no bigger than their brain and character taken together. a kind of closed and cramped atv, for lack of another term.
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 09: 22
      i suggest a measure to stimulate their tactical thinking - every time a Russian dies in a loaf of bread, atv or motorcycle, execute one of their children; after 5 or 6, i bet they will look through the huge fields of unused potential, with even bigger stocks of ammunition, themselves, bcz the only thing they care about is their own hunnic blood.
      1. -1
        10 September 2024 09: 45
        Italian, Hungarian, Romanian?
        1. 0
          10 September 2024 09: 48
          rommie, unfortunately for me.
          1. -2
            10 September 2024 09: 55
            Ahhh, Snagov, Ceusescu, I see. But why in English?
            1. 0
              10 September 2024 10: 08
              I don't speak Russian. i had the opportunity for a few years but it wasn't a good moment (because of the Romanians, don't misunderstand me) and the scant knowledge disappeared with the memories of that period. as for snagov, it wasn't a metaphor - the place is still used by the political class and traitors recruited from more countries are entertained there or in similar places (comana, cornu, sinaia...). only that sechin has a house there and not somewhere else.
              1. -2
                10 September 2024 10: 10
                Write (type) in Romanian. Why not?
                1. -1
                  10 September 2024 10: 14
                  there is translation from Russian to English and viceversa, you will see the flags when you press the three parallel lines. there is nothing in romanian and honestly i stopped watching romanian news for years. im not even sure what i could talk to a romanian again. but dont worry, i dont talk english better, the natives dont understand me well.
                  1. -1
                    10 September 2024 10: 18
                    It's all clear then.
              2. 0
                10 September 2024 21: 58
                If you are Romanian, then you should speak Russian perfectly.
                1. +2
                  10 September 2024 22: 13
                  you must be under the spell of a romanian conman that sold u stories about "pro-Russian" romania, when in fact the anti-Russian hate was their obsession for centuries, even if the Russians didn't have any problem with them. there are confessions from the 1700s-1800s, when the Russians entered romanian states as liberators and orthodox brothers, and romanians were selling them infected women and rotten food. rommies had a lot of fights and were occupied many times, but they never hated anyone as they hated Russians and for a long time, without any fundament - Russian officers were the first ones to teach these "francophiles" French, governor kiselyov remodeled bucharest, but no one cared. Russian language was also abandoned. judge people for what they are, don't fall for easy criteria! more you waste ur love on the unworthy, more u do injustice to the better ones.
                  you must be under the spell of a romanian swindler who sold you stories about "pro-russian" romania when in fact hating russians has been their obsession for centuries even if russians had no problem with them. there are confessions from the 1700s-1800s when russians entered romanian states as liberators and orthodox brothers and romans sold them infected women and rotten food. romans fought a lot and were occupied many times but they never hated anyone as much as russians and for a long time, without any basis - russian officers were the first to teach these "francophiles" french, governor kiselev rebuilt bucharest but nobody cared. russian language was also abandoned. judge people as they are, don't fall for easy criteria! The more you waste your love on the unworthy, the more you do injustice to the best.
  25. +5
    10 September 2024 09: 24
    ZSU-57-2 and how many of them are left? They were distributed to everyone in Africa, the Middle East, Asia.
    Without a radar or an OLS, the effectiveness is low, as well as without shells with remote detonations.
    Therefore, it is possible to modify it, but with an open cabin? Into which a UAV can fly or be dropped from a UAV.
    We'll have to make a welded closed cabin.
  26. +10
    10 September 2024 09: 36
    The enemy is trying to shoot down drones and even cruise missiles with any available weapons, but we cannot saturate the border areas with, for example, ZSU-57-2.

    The ZSU-57-2 has an archaic electro-hydraulic guidance system, its speed was insufficient against high-speed targets at low altitude even in the 60s. Against a cruise missile, there is practically no chance.
    The horizontal guidance speed was 30°, vertical – 20° per second[4]

    Against UAVs - low rate of fire.
    The gun was fed from a 4-round box magazine, the practical rate of fire was 100-120 rounds per minute per barrel, but the maximum duration of continuous fire was 40-50 rounds, after which the barrel had to be cooled[4][5].

    In order to use the ZSU-57-2 now, it is necessary to convert the guidance system to an electric drive (which is very difficult), create a projectile with a controlled detonation and a projectile control system (even more difficult) and install a new weapon control system. In essence, do everything from scratch.
    1. +1
      10 September 2024 09: 59
      Again - of course. In principle, if there is MFS with PV (not sure), then there is a point in messing around with everything else. If possible - drag ready-made solutions from Derivation.
  27. +8
    10 September 2024 09: 41
    it's written nonsense, Sergey Bongo described everything quite clearly.....
  28. +4
    10 September 2024 09: 55
    UV. author, do you have any information about what is actually produced from the shells for the ZSU-57? I heard that they resumed production of the ancient 281 shells, but with an AR. But this is slightly better than nothing. Nothing has been heard about the MFS with a programmable fuse for a long time, much less about the UAS.
    But they also need to modernize the fire control system, or rather, completely change it.
  29. -2
    10 September 2024 09: 56
    BMD 1, BRDM 2 fill with TNT and send to the trenches, to the enemy. Convert into a robot and again support our assaults
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 10: 41
      you can fill uaz with dynamite, no need to destroy a good vehicle, plus, the wall would stop much of the shock of the explosion.
      1. 0
        10 September 2024 11: 22
        Quote: Ionescu Popa
        You can fill a UAZ with dynamite

        You can't send a UAZ into a field, it won't fit everywhere
        Quote: Ionescu Popa
        the wall will soften most of the impact of the explosion

        No wall can soften the blast wave from a ton of TNT
        1. 0
          10 September 2024 19: 12
          you get the same effect with few shells from old artillery, no need to waste such a good vehicle and a ton of dynamite.
          1. 0
            11 September 2024 10: 41
            Quote: Ionescu Popa
            there is no need to waste such good equipment and a ton of dynamite.

            I already wrote. There is a direct effect of destruction, and there is an indirect and not always direct effect is greater. The indirect effect from using FAB-3000 with UMPK is always greater.
            1. 0
              11 September 2024 10: 47
              i had prepared a larger answer, because you deserve one. few more hours and then i hope i will reduce social media.
            2. 0
              28 September 2024 23: 28
              you might be right, bmd-1 can mostly be used as suicide drone, especially with the current attitude of the army, imposed from the higher echelons but depressingly embraced by the lower ranks. there is nothing in common with the soviet army in world war 2, more with the germans and americans back then - reckless waste of resources, pride and lack of will. but in countries who still respect the war maneuvers, even these would be good, since they have the firepower of a recoilless gun, but with much better protection and, bonus, they can shoot very old but still partly effective antitank missiles, like at1. maybe you could give them cheaply outside europe, together with ammunition and spare parts; since you sold to ukraine and nato, you could also sell to friendlier partners. as for bigger and newer things that would fit each field corporal's exigence before calling the aviation, you can approach their revitalization in reverse, seeing how much ammunition you have. many fear the old ammunition that won't leave or will explode in the barrel, but even this can be solved with more protection around the firing mechanism, like a standing iron plaque and a longer string for the fixed artillery; plus, the comfort of being able to ask any time for a free replacement.
              You may be right, the BMD-1 can be used mainly as a suicide drone, especially with the current attitude of the army, imposed from the highest echelons but sadly accepted by the lower ranks. Nothing in common with the Soviet army in WWII, more with the Germans and Americans of that time - reckless waste of resources, pride and lack of will. But in countries that still respect military maneuvers, even they would be good, as they have the firepower of a recoilless rifle, but with much better protection and, as a bonus, can fire very old but still somewhat effective anti-tank missiles like the AT1. Maybe you could sell them cheap outside Europe, along with ammunition and spare parts; since you sold to Ukraine and NATO, you could also sell to more friendly partners. As for the larger, newer stuff that would suit every field corporal's needs before calling in the air force, you can approach their respawning in reverse order, depending on how much ammunition you have. Many are afraid of old ammunition that does not fly out or explodes in the barrel, but even this problem can be solved by providing more reliable protection for the firing mechanism, for example, with a standing iron plate and a longer bowstring for fixed artillery; plus the convenience of being able to ask for a free replacement at any time.
              1. 0
                28 September 2024 23: 50
                anyway, let's take a moment and compare the two attitudes - the soviet one who tried to protect people at any cost, even building a tin can around them, and the current one, where the whole army elite is packed on buggies and sent ahead. but even now, sending four people in it is a risk too high, and two would do the same job. i don't feel the uav threatens the armor's role, but indeed the specific category of armored personnel carrier might be under stress, although less than the soft skins. so give away the things you don't use, even those from the 1940's, a gesture is worth more than hundreds of declarations, and they will find them a better use, even in economy, administration or as reexports.
                anyway, let's stop for a minute and compare the two approaches - the soviet one, which tried to protect people at all costs, even by building a tin can around them, and the current one, when the entire army elite is put in a buggy and sent forward. but even now, sending four people in it is too big a risk, and two will do the same job. i don't think that the uav threatens the role of armor, but indeed a certain category of armored personnel carriers can be under load, although less than soft armored personnel carriers. so give away what you do not use, even what was produced in the 1940s, this gesture is worth more than hundreds of declarations, and they will find better uses for them, even in the economy, administration or as re-export.
  30. 0
    10 September 2024 10: 13
    Quote: Ionescu Popa
    you can integrate these in an existing system now, no need for separate radar. you need this criteria - if ukraine, which didn't produce an equipment, is using it, then the Russian producer will use it even better.

    Some times, colleague, some times.
  31. -1
    10 September 2024 10: 23
    The modernized ZSU-57-2 (modern optics and SUA, a projectile with a remote detonation) significantly neutralized the trump card of the Ukrainian Armed Forces - UAVs. The main clients for destruction would be reconnaissance aircraft, both aircraft and quadcopters, plus long-range attack UAVs.
  32. 0
    10 September 2024 10: 35
    and we cannot saturate the border territories with, for example, ZSU-57-2.
    And what will she do without the SSO? Again, the article is anonymous. Does the MO editorial board publish such opuses on purpose, anonymous ones?
  33. +1
    10 September 2024 10: 40
    also, brdm and btr have low mobility and an atv is fast? they show when they lie for money.
  34. -2
    10 September 2024 11: 45
    The Shilka would be very useful for covering objects in the rear, even without an engine and without a radar, as a stationary post with optics and a radio for promptly receiving information. It is quite capable of Geranium analogues.
  35. -2
    10 September 2024 11: 58
    A 57 mm cannon with new ammunition (shrapnel with a remote detonator or with HE shells with non-contact detonators) could solve the problem with FPV drones once and for all.
    It will be able to shoot them down in flocks at a distance of several kilometers if there is target designation.
  36. -2
    10 September 2024 13: 27
    What kind of idiotic habit does the author have of inserting the word ancient? There is no such thing as ancient weapons, but there is an incorrect use of them. The same D-1 and D-20 in conjunction with a UAV and Krasnopol work effectively. And the same BRDM-2 is more effective than a pickup truck with a machine gun - better cross-country ability, more powerful weapons and some kind of armor protection from shrapnel.
  37. -2
    10 September 2024 14: 54
    Each vehicle for its own battle. But when the army goes on a breakthrough, it is better for the infantry to ride on old vehicles, but which protect against shrapnel and bullets, than under a tarpaulin in a KAMAZ! It is only necessary to modernize the old armored personnel carriers at the repair plant and install one reliable engine instead of two unreliable ones! And at checkpoints, in liberated territories, it is better to have an old armored personnel carrier than to take away new necessary equipment from combat units!
  38. 0
    10 September 2024 15: 42
    Quote: parma
    25 years have passed since the “master” changed, which is about 3 times longer than the reign of the “drinker”... something doesn’t add up...

    It seems that the current owner "drinks", although not literally, more than the previous alcoholic.
  39. 0
    10 September 2024 15: 57
    I don't know what's going on with the "Shilkas" in the warehouses, but there are definitely "Tunguskas". In general, this kind of equipment, and drones, are used to shoot down around the oil refineries.
    But this will not happen, first of all, a law must be passed so that businesses can buy services from the Russian Ministry of Defense, in the form of air defense "services". Such equipment will not be given to guards.
    It would be possible to involve PMCs, but our government has somehow not succeeded with PMCs. lol However, the opposite is also true.
    Well, and the second thing is to take them out of storage and equip them with targeting systems, radars. And this is also not easy now. There is a shortage.
    And so, I repeat, shaving off low- and slow-flying drones is the best thing.
  40. -2
    10 September 2024 17: 24
    Quote: spektr9
    A blind car with no armor?

    The author pointed out the possibility of using ZSUs decommissioned from service to cover rear facilities. Who would be hindered by such equipment, for example, in protecting an oil refinery in the Kursk region?
    Anti-aircraft guns will not have to travel along the front line often – in some cases they can be used as stationary firing points. All that remains is to equip the vehicles with modern surveillance and target tracking equipment.
  41. -2
    10 September 2024 18: 19
    The topic is certainly interesting, especially for "old soldiers" But! Maybe it makes sense, in the current period, not to spread too much about what is in "our bins" and not to try to "compete" with each other in being informed... MI-6, TsIPSO, too, "read" VO... Let's be more modest, in a military way.... And remember the old French proverb: "A long tongue, as a rule, makes the neck shorter, or, a little thinner..."
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 19: 03
      on the contrary, the worst problem now is the resistance coming from the defense industry mafia, so you need to show the dirty pants to everyone and win people for the right thing to do.
      On the contrary, the biggest problem now is the resistance from the defense industry mafia, so we need to show everyone our dirty pants and persuade people to take the right positions.
  42. +1
    10 September 2024 20: 28
    Shilkas, as I remember, work on low-flying aircraft, the question is different - what types of drones are launched in the majority. If they are low-flying, then they can be placed in particularly dangerous areas, targeting does not seem difficult, a small network of locators at a certain altitude and placing shilkas in a checkerboard pattern to cover a square, the percentage of efficiency will increase. Drones fly at low altitude, the locator gives the command 40 ° to the right, altitude 30 fire. I think it will work out fine for low targets. Here you need to look at the mass of drones launched, at what altitude mass launches predominate, does it make sense. True, this is a pain, a locator + a mini rocket is easier.
    1. 0
      10 September 2024 20: 47
      you can even place the old air defense in semi-redundant positions, just put them first, to spare you ammunition and also be used against land targets if there is no other possibility; the current weapons are much more specialized.
      You can even put older air defenses in semi-reserve positions, just putting them in first to save ammo and also using them against ground targets if there is no other option; today's weapons are much more specialized.
      1. -1
        10 September 2024 20: 51
        not semi-reserve, as google translated, semi-redundant: give them less space to cover than they normally would. that's why i didn't use google translator - the human mind translates better. especially the old missiles against f16 will be a hit, just control them well to avoid hitting your own - self destruction, human command... the old iff might or might not work now.
    2. -1
      10 September 2024 22: 58
      , for strategic objectives behind the frontlines, the best is a tunguska or pantsir turret, if you have the quantities indeed. but for the front, the best are the old systems, at least as the first line of defense - less vulnerable, more resistant and powerful. imagine that the uav that hit western russia (at least) came from ukraine, and were skipped by these modern systems.
      Indeed, for strategic purposes behind the front lines, the Tunguska or Pantsir turrets are best, if you have the necessary numbers. But for the front lines, the older systems are best, at least as a first line of defense - less vulnerable, more resilient, and more powerful. Imagine if the UAV that hit western Russia (at least) had come from Ukraine and been missed by these modern systems.
  43. +4
    10 September 2024 22: 22
    "Light aircraft with explosives have already reached Kazan. Is Ural next?"
    They've already reached the Urals. Attack on the Salavat Oil Refinery.
  44. +1
    10 September 2024 22: 27
    How far will the outdated BRDM and BTR removed from storage travel? How many specialists are left who know how to adjust a carburetor? After answering these questions, the inexpediency of mass use will be obvious. As a single copy for enthusiasts it will do, but nothing more.
    1. -1
      10 September 2024 23: 00
      or 10000 copies for 10000 enthusiasts, bcz u cant stop falling in love with them.
  45. 0
    10 September 2024 23: 21
    We probably have a huge number of T-54, T-55, T-62 and T-10 tanks left, their return to service could be a reasonable and natural decision: it is an opportunity to relatively quickly obtain thousands of tanks no worse than those in service with the Serbian, Romanian and Egyptian armies, repair and engineering vehicles, self-propelled guns and the long-overdue heavy infantry fighting vehicles. Worn-out large-caliber artillery, which is no longer suitable for aimed fire at long distances and is not capable of outshooting modern NATO guns, can also be put to use: mounted on the chassis of the same tanks and thus get assault guns for the infantry.
    The main thing in this matter is not to become arrogant and avoid the false conclusion that we already have everything we need and that the army can continue to be kept on a diet of Soviet reserves and individual examples of modern technology.
  46. +6
    10 September 2024 23: 52
    I wonder if there are any Schneider howitzers left in the bins? It would be nice: the Ukrainians have French howitzers and we have French howitzers, but there is a nuance.
  47. 0
    11 September 2024 06: 23
    Of all the above, only the ZSU, both the Shilka and the Molotilka, deserve attention. The first one is especially important for air defense tasks, but it requires the installation of new equipment for detecting air targets, especially those that are hard to spot and at night, and new, I would say the latest means of communication.
    It makes sense to remake the "thresher" into a support unit for assault groups by increasing the armor protection, especially in the upper hemisphere.
  48. 0
    11 September 2024 12: 34
    It is quite possible that I am wrong and out of the loop, but it seems that the capacity of the motherland's bins is greatly exaggerated. For the last 30 years, they have only "taken out" from there and it is unlikely that anything has been replenished or a fire has suddenly occurred (!!).
  49. +1
    11 September 2024 12: 40
    Over the past years, the combat units could not provide spare parts for equipment repair, everyone was engaged in cannibalism, and now about the storage bases. The skeletons there have been dead for a long time, with rare exceptions, and this junk can no longer be restored quickly and more or less efficiently.
  50. 0
    11 September 2024 14: 05
    A former commander of the Sverdlovsk OMON told me that when they were surrounded in a building in Chechnya and fought back for several days, the only thing that saved them was that they had a Shilka. Each weapon can be effective in specific conditions
  51. +1
    11 September 2024 14: 44
    The use of RBU-6000 Smerch-2 naval mortar launchers in the SVO is also from the same opera.

    This solution is already from the series "make a fool pray to God and he will break his forehead..."
    RBU-6000 should be used to combat marine drones, protect ships and naval bases, and they began to be attached to motorized vehicles only because the Marines cannot obtain even used MLRS "GRAD" or "Uragan" from the storage bases of the ground forces of the Ministry of Defense in sufficient quantities, you see, the Navy is a different DEPARTMENT...
    This is the kind of madhouse we have, marines from all fleets are being called in to fight on land, but only with their own weapons, and it doesn’t matter that they are mainly intended for combat operations at sea.
  52. 0
    11 September 2024 15: 14
    The enemy's diverse arsenals significantly complicate not only combat operations, but also everyday operation.


    Soviet equipment from the Ministry of Defense storage bases could still serve with dignity in the territorial defense brigades that governors have finally begun to form in border regions after a "kick" from Putin.
    Many of the future Teroborona fighters are familiar with this equipment because they served on it in the Soviet and Russian armies.

    I won't argue which is better, the BRDM or the loaf, but the regiments and brigades of territorial defense will most likely be armed with both, since there is not enough new and modernized equipment even for the LBS units.
    But here there is scope for the imagination of home-grown designers who are capable of constructing a jihad-mobile from a UAZ and a "missile cruiser" from a motorbike in their garage...
  53. 0
    11 September 2024 16: 07
    For some reason, the author is firmly convinced that all this stuff was not cut up for scrap metal 30 years ago.
    I remember in the early 90s you could buy a brand new "green" flatbed ZIL130 with 500 km on the clock from a storage depot in the Moscow region for 600 bucks (that was the price for an old, beat-up Moskvich back then)
  54. 0
    11 September 2024 17: 34
    Let me explain for the author: there are very few barrels for the Shilka. It just so happened that their production ceased in the 80s, and personnel and equipment were lost. Only a few years ago, barrels were finally developed anew and I hope they are producing, but not enough.
  55. 0
    11 September 2024 17: 40
    This is all nonsense, although the ZSU 57-2 is super (only the entire system needs to be re-equipped, especially the guidance and detection devices) there are thousands of S200, 75 missiles in warehouses, who is stopping them from being removed from storage, re-equipped, and made into surface-to-surface missiles, like the Ukrainian ones. It is not difficult to create a launcher and fire at the same power plants.
    1. 0
      11 September 2024 20: 05
      Anti-aircraft missiles have low power and short range.
      1. 0
        13 September 2024 17: 51
        The S-200 has a range of 300 km, and with additional wings it can fly 500-600 km, since it does not require supersonic speed like a SAM, which means the engine will operate in an economical mode.
        Or the charge can be doubled while maintaining a range of 300 km.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  56. +1
    11 September 2024 20: 03
    The twin 57mm should be installed on the Terminator, since the 30mm does not penetrate the Bradley in the forehead and does not have a controlled detonation.
    You can put it on the T62, for example. You can put a lot of things on the T62 and T55, for example the D30 howitzer. They showed an unmanned D30 with several charges, but why not make a manned one based on an old tank, a tank for which shells are not produced.
  57. 0
    11 September 2024 20: 48
    Here it is rather the other way around, the enemy would be helped by the Shilkas than by us. If their helicopters were flying low or attack aircraft, then just right, the freight car would not cover, but the enemy uses modern missiles and UAVs, here the Pantsir is better.
  58. +1
    11 September 2024 21: 46
    The main problem with this obsolete weapon is its terrible technical condition, lack of spare parts and, most importantly, very long crew training, since the equipment is very difficult to operate and operate. There is no point in taking them into the troops "just to have it." In addition to training the crew, you need to invest money in major repairs and partial modernization. Modern communications, batteries, replacement of wiring, new sights, etc. Have you noticed that the Tunguskas, for example, are not visible on the LBS? And this is also a terrible thresher, it beats as far as the path. But in modern conditions, it will not protect itself from drones. Its station is designed to search for and work on helicopters and low-flying aircraft. And it does not see small drones. And for the FPVshnik, it itself is an immediate tasty target. At the same time, it is very difficult to operate. It is easier and cheaper to stamp out Pantsirs and Toras,
    1. +1
      13 September 2024 18: 00
      It is easier and cheaper to stamp out shells and Torahs,

      The armor costs one and a half billion rubles, the TOR is even more expensive.
      For this money, you can restore a hundred "Shilkas" and, instead of the old radar, equip them with an optical-electronic target detection and tracking station with a thermal imaging channel, which UAVs can see perfectly well.
      Regarding maintenance, there is also no problem since the Shilkas are still in service.
      My nephew served as a gunner on a Shilka in the Black Sea Fleet Marine Corps in 10-11....
      1. 0
        14 September 2024 08: 59
        Well, since you said that for this amount it would be possible to repair, equip, re-equip, and re-train a hundred Shiloks, then that's it, the question is off the table... laughing
        In general, this is not a serious conversation, not an understanding of the essence and reality.
  59. +1
    13 September 2024 07: 15
    put an Afar, IC and ASU on a Shilka and it won't cost a dime, against drones! There was already an article here about how Afar is not only put on a tank, but also on a jeep
    1. 0
      14 September 2024 10: 57
      Although Afar effectively sees drones, it also “shines” like all radars, so it will be quickly found and destroyed.
      The advantage of optical-electronic systems is that they operate in passive mode, while the thermal imaging channel allows them to operate in the dark.
  60. +1
    14 September 2024 11: 26
    Back in the 00s, Muromteplovoz presented a very interesting development of a budget ZRAK based on the MT-LBM 6MB5.
    Optical-electronic station for detection and tracking of targets with a thermal imaging channel.
    The twin 30 mm artillery mount is complemented by a launcher with two MANPADS.
    If we take the cost as a reference in relation to the new BTR-82A at 22 million rubles, then this complex on the chassis of the MT-LB taken from storage bases should also be in the region of 20 million rubles.
    For 1,5 billion rubles (the cost of 1 Pantsir air defense missile system), you can get 50-60 units of MT-LBM 6MB5 air defense missile systems, which can be used quite effectively against enemy manpower and lightly armored vehicles.
  61. +1
    14 September 2024 20: 20
    Dear answer, there are no more Shiloks in storage because they were destroyed during the time of Sergeyev. Maybe someone remembers such a character who, with his pseudo-reforms, caused damage comparable to Serdyukov's. Another year of such SVO and the end of the Soviet bright technical past will come. Don't forget, the hardware may be available but it is disassembled, rusty, not combat-ready and what is the point of such storage of equipment and the equipment itself.
    1. 0
      8 November 2024 15: 28
      You are right in many ways: and if we have not yet been completely defeated, it is only thanks to the people, and not the leadership: glory to God!
      But here we must also reassuringly answer, in essence - convincingly - to all enthusiasts of old equipment and its modernization when entering the war. Starting with the author of the article. Stop, enthusiasts, and think carefully. Always, when proposing something, you must put yourself in the place of the one who will implement it - and from the beginning to the very end.
      Then all the great ideas are immediately closed, and Napoleonic plans collapse: "it looked smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines." Just imagine that you were put in charge of this "reanimation" and "modernization" project. So what? Nothing will come of it, of the ideas that the author of the article suggests. Just imagine that you were ordered to urgently "remove from storage" and bring to the front an entire model of, for example, pre-UAZ military jeeps, there was some GAZ there, colloquially called "goat", or goat. And what - an excellent
      there was a machine. According to the staff, it even attached and carried light guns. And it had few functions in the army, that's all. But none of this will work for you: the train has already left - it will not work out in any way to start this machine and bring it to the fighting army. And combat vehicles - in no way at all. For many reasons. Multi-million dollar tanks, when removed from storage, are first sent to tank factories, where they undergo a complete overhaul. But these factories still exist. But the factories that produced these Shilkas... no longer exist. Who will solve these problems in a combat situation? No one will solve them.
      Separately, it is necessary to completely refute and reject the fantastic idea of ​​small-caliber ammunition of controlled and remote detonation. Because the very idea of ​​this idea is complete nonsense and stupidity. If not to say worse: an enemy provocation - to waste brains, time and resources on this useless stupidity.
      There was talk about this topic in the West...
      So our reformers-optimizers decided to pick up this nonsense as another Western virus? What won't the West come up with with its intellectual degeneration? From the exploration of the Moon and Mars to controlled small-caliber munitions for controlled detonation. Well, naturally: such an ideal sniper sits somewhere 5 km from the target with his Hollywood Rifle Dolph Lundgren, sits and waits, drinks beer, snacks on a Big Mac, chats on WhatsApp and waits. Then he gets a message directly from the head of the Pentagon: the target is driving along the highway 5 km away. Dolph takes his Rifle and shoots once, without aiming - somewhere in that direction. And continues his chatter on WhatsApp about beautiful models. And the bullet (your favorite remotely detonated guided munition) flies itself along a circular-helicopter trajectory, looks out for this necessary limousine with a bad (Russian) guy, goes in from behind - and like... bang - piercing the entire armored limousine. The limousine explodes completely and its remnants tumble along the highway for a long time. And the bullet first transmits to Lungren a fully recorded video of its hit on target in high-density video and with Dolby Surround sound. Everyone is happy. Dolph Lungren, having finished his beer, gets into his camouflage Lincoln, carelessly tucked into the bushes, and leaves for a month-long vacation to the Maldives. Everyone is happy.
      What nonsense. Western manufacturers failed to produce even the largest caliber shells, simply because they were guided by a blocked GPS, and it is impossible to land a gunner with a laser pointer 20 km from a moving target. And what kind of Dolph Lungren would run around our rear with a laser pointer: without beer, Big Mac and WhatsApp/Instagram?
      And it is impossible to mount an inertial system even in a large-caliber projectile, given that this projectile would then be comparable in cost and complexity to tactical missiles.
      People - sometimes you have to use your brain? Even in military affairs! Before issuing advanced Chubais-innovations.
  62. 0
    14 September 2024 20: 22
    Isn't the BMD-1 a lighter BMP-1 for airborne troops?
    1. -1
      19 September 2024 05: 54
      No, it's not like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    2. 0
      30 September 2024 16: 45
      These are completely different cars! But with common parts!
  63. 0
    19 September 2024 01: 31
    It's time to use these hellish mowers!!!!!!!! The ZSU showed themselves very well in Afghanistan!!!!!!!
  64. 0
    19 September 2024 05: 55
    And modernize the BMD-1, BMP-1 to the level of BMD, BMP-2!
  65. log
    +1
    19 September 2024 07: 36
    This criminal slowness of high-ranking officials DURING THE WAR is astounding! It is not for nothing that veterans say: "Stalin is not on you."
  66. 0
    30 September 2024 16: 47
    Is it possible to upgrade old equipment with modern components?????
  67. 0
    10 October 2024 09: 11
    Guns are the easiest to get into operation. It's more difficult with all sorts of engines. Machines need to be dragged to the repair plant and so on.
    1. 0
      10 October 2024 13: 06
      they even found a way to sabotage the reactivation of old artillery, by removing the "expired" ammunition, while ukraine had no problem with shells with rusted carcass! these criminals will leave you with no chance of carrying any war after this one! now i hope you understand why the "anticorruption" eradicated the army logistics and research - everything the damned souls do now will not be accounted for! "anticorruption" is not a moral gesture, is a power game.
      they even found a way to sabotage the reactivation of old artillery by removing "expired" ammunition, while Ukraine had no problem with shells with rusty casings! these criminals will leave you no chance to fight any war after this one! now i hope you understand why "anti-corruption" destroyed army logistics and research - everything the damned souls do now will not be taken into account! "anti-corruption" is not a moral gesture, it is a power play.