Robotic complex MTS-15 "Clover" with 122-mm howitzer D-30: advantages and disadvantages, potential and prospects

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Robotic complex MTS-15 "Clover" with 122-mm howitzer D-30: advantages and disadvantages, potential and prospects

One of the new features of the forum "Army-2024" became the robotic complex (RTC) MTS-15 "Clover", which includes a robotic tracked chassis equipped with a 122-mm howitzer D-30 with an automatic loading and guidance system.

According to open sources, the RTK MTS-15 crew can control it from a distance of up to 500 meters. The D-30 howitzer is reloaded by an automated loading system with a four-shot magazine.



The time it takes to transfer the MTS-15 system from the marching position to the combat position and back is 30 seconds. The maximum firing range is 15,3 kilometers, and when firing active-reactive projectiles up to 22 kilometers. The carrying capacity of the robotic chassis is 15 tons, the maximum speed is up to 12 kilometers per hour with a cruising range of up to 120 kilometers.


Robotic complex MTS-15 "Clover"

Some Russian experts have suggested that the MTS-15 Klever system will have low survivability due to the low speed of its tracked chassis, which is only 12 kilometers per hour, which is compounded by the small ammunition supply in the robotic magazine, which is only four shells. Indeed, with such a speed of movement, the MTS-15 Klever robotic system will be quickly detected and destroyed if it remains in the same point in the LBS area for any length of time, and the firing range of the D-30 howitzer will not allow it to be far from the LBS.


The author was taught to work with this old lady at the military department several decades ago – then it seemed that her time had long passed, unfortunately, it cannot be said that we were diligent students

This period of time will be determined by the intensity of use of the MTS-15 Klever complex, the conditions of the battlefield - forest, buildings or bare field, as well as the saturation of the area of ​​the terrain where the complex will operate with enemy unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) - reconnaissance UAVs, Baba Yaga and FRV-type bomber UAVs.drones.

In addition, such factors as the tactics of using the MTS-15 "Clover" complex, how often the soldiers operating the complex will change its position, camouflage it, and much more will be of great importance.

It is undeniable that the use of the MTS-15 "Clover" type RTK will in any case save the lives of soldiers, which is already very important, but several questions immediately arise.

Firstly, the robotic tracked chassis of the MTS-15 Klever complex will most likely have a limited range, and even if the chassis' fuel reserve is large enough, it will not go far at a speed of 12 kilometers per hour, that is, its purpose is to retreat to reload and change position at the deployment point after each series of four shots, so that it is not covered by a return artillery strike from the enemy.

Secondly, there are concerns that such new and complex technology as robotic chassis will often fail and require complex and expensive maintenance.

Based on the above, it can be assumed that the MTS-15 "Clover" complex should include an important element - a wheeled trailer capable of quickly transporting a robotic tracked chassis with a 122-mm howitzer D-30. In addition to the robotic tracked chassis itself with a 122-mm howitzer D-30, the trailer should accommodate ammunition, as well as a compartment with a crew - operators of the robotic howitzer.

On tracks from wheels


A digression is necessary here.

Earlier in the article “Mobility and cross-country ability: combine the advantages of wheeled and tracked self-propelled artillery systems (SAU)” from July 11, 2023 we talked about the problem of wheeled self-propelled artillery units in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation) RF Armed Forces.


The trailer, designed to ensure that tracked self-propelled guns fire from wheels, must be improved – the platform must be strengthened (red), jacks are installed (Blue colour)

As the practice of the SVO has shown, in the conditions of a modern battlefield, mobility is of decisive importance - everything that moves slowly quickly becomes a target for the enemy. It is precisely the wheeled self-propelled guns and multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS), also placed on a wheeled chassis, that most often manage to avoid counter-battery fire from the enemy. This can be easily verified by the ratio of the number of cases of destruction of tracked Ukrainian self-propelled guns and wheeled self-propelled guns and MLRS, confirmed by photos or video images.

In Russia, wheeled self-propelled guns are just beginning to enter service troops. One of the options for solving this problem, discussed in the above material, is the use of automobile trailers designed for transporting tracked self-propelled guns, but equipped with a power platform and hydraulic stops.

In this case, the modified automobile trailers could be used not only as a means of transporting tracked SPGs, but also as a platform for firing "from wheels". That is, upon arrival at the destination, the SPG does not leave the trailer, the trailer turns in the direction of departure and lowers the hydraulic stops, then the SPG fires a series of shots at the target, after which the trailer raises the hydraulic stops and quickly leaves the position.

Of course, if necessary, the tracked self-propelled gun can be dismounted, that is, driven off the lowboy and used in normal mode.

So, since the robotic tracked chassis of the MTS-15 "Clover" complex will have a limited range and low speed, which means that a lowboy will be required for its transportation in any case, it can also be equipped with a platform and hydraulic stops for firing from wheels.

Of course, like large self-propelled guns, the MTS-15 "Clover" complex will be able to leave the lowboy and move under its own power depending on the tasks being solved and the tactical situation. In fact, all that is required is to retrofit the automobile lowboy with a platform and hydraulic stops, which is not so difficult and expensive.

However, this is only one possible direction for the development of the MTS-15 Clover complex.

Wheeled chassis


As we have already said above, there are two significant factors:

1) high risk that the robotic chassis will break;

2) tracked chassis do not provide the systems with sufficient mobility to allow them to avoid enemy counter-battery fire, but wheeled chassis provide the necessary mobility.

The above-mentioned option of using a car trailer, additionally equipped with a platform and hydraulic supports, allowing the MTS-15 "Clover" complex to operate from wheels, has a right to exist, but it is still a crutch.

Conventionally, the MTS-15 "Clover" complex can be divided into two components - a robotic tracked chassis and a 122-mm howitzer D-30 with an automatic loading and guidance system.

It is possible that the optimal solution for solving problems in the interests of the Ground Forces (GF) of the RF Armed Forces would be to install a 122 mm D-30 howitzer with an automatic loading and guidance system from the MTS-15 Klever RTK on a wheeled chassis with an armored cabin for the driver and crew, a compartment for storing ammunition, a reinforced platform and hydraulic stops.

Earlier in the article “Towed artillery: new life in the format of wheeled self-propelled guns” from August 30, 2022, we considered the possibility of installing towed artillery mounts on wheeled chassis, and in order to increase the speed of production of such wheeled ersatz self-propelled guns and their delivery to the troops, automation of the firing process was not envisaged. At the moment, there is no information about the development of wheeled ersatz self-propelled guns in Russia and their delivery to the troops, although there is definitely a need for them.


The Russian Armed Forces need something like the Ukrainian self-propelled howitzer "Bogdan" - a lot and quickly

It is possible that the implementation of a wheeled self-propelled gun with the installation of a 122-mm D-30 howitzer with an automatic loading and guidance system will be of interest to the Russian Armed Forces and will be more in demand.

In addition to greater mobility, it is expected that the implementation of a wheeled self-propelled gun with the installation of a 122-mm D-30 howitzer with an automatic loading and guidance system will be less expensive than the MTS-15 Klever complex on a robotic tracked chassis, and will also be easier to operate.

In the future, the number of shells in the automatic loading system can be increased to 6 units, as it is implemented in the Ukrainian wheeled self-propelled gun "Bogdana". This will allow achieving an optimal balance between fire performance and the safe time of the self-propelled gun in a firing position without changing its location.

Finally, the next step could be to replace the 122mm D-30 howitzer with something more modern, such as the 152A2 Msta-B towed 65mm howitzer or the 152A2 Giatsint-B towed 36mm gun.

Conclusions


It is unlikely that the MTS-15 Klever robotic system with a 122 mm D-30 howitzer will be widely used in its current form due to the expected high cost, the risk of failure of the robotic chassis, and the low speed of the robotic tracked chassis, which is about 12 kilometers per hour.

The effectiveness of the MTS-15 "Clover" complex with a 122-mm D-30 howitzer can be increased by adding a low-bed trailer equipped with a reinforced frame and hydraulic stops.

Presumably, the optimal solution for the Ground Forces could be the creation of a wheeled self-propelled gun equipped with a 122-mm D-30 howitzer with an automatic loading and guidance system.

In the future, the solutions used can be projected onto the towed 152-mm howitzer 2A65 "Msta-B" and/or the towed 152-mm gun 2A36 "Giatsint-B".
136 comments
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  1. +11
    4 September 2024 03: 52
    This tractor is only for scaring Papuans. It has no speed. The machine gun only has four shells. You shoot them in a minute and need to reload. And then the drones will attack.
    1. -5
      4 September 2024 08: 51
      This tractor will allow you to shoot without risking your lives. There are times when you need to shoot. And this tractor will allow you to shoot back somehow.
      4 guns are already 16 shells.
      If the automatic guidance and topographic reference allow us to hit the target, that would be something.
      1. +2
        4 September 2024 10: 34
        This tractor will allow you to shoot without risking your lives.

        The maximum calculation distance is 500 m, in reality it will be less. This does not provide any safety.
        The range is zero. The speed is also zero.
        As an experimental solution for testing and further development of robotic platforms, it could probably be useful.
        In a practical sense, it would be more useful to make standard systems for remote control of ATGMs. Now at the front they have to be "improvised".
        1. 0
          4 September 2024 10: 41
          Better for the starter to come, deploy the gun. Shoot for 1,5 minutes. Roll up the gun. Change position sitting in the back of the truck, behind which the drone may already be flying???
          Yes, the movement speed will be higher. About twice as fast.
          1. +2
            4 September 2024 10: 44
            It would be better to develop a full-fledged wheeled self-propelled gun with a 10-round shell cassette. Instead of creating such "miracles".
            By the way, Clover will also need tractor-trailers. Or ride on tracks with a maximum speed of 12 km/h.
            1. -3
              4 September 2024 10: 51
              A full-fledged wheeled self-propelled gun with a 10-shot magazine??? Maybe for the next war.
              They won't make it to this one.
              And no one argues that a trawl is needed.
              If only to hide in the bushes and knead the enemy's front line from its own shallow rear at the first request of the infantry, this papelats will be enough. And its speed too. The main thing is that the electronic filling allows you to hit.
              And we seem to have sorted this out. Topographical reference and target coordinates are processed by electronics and they shoot straight at the target.
              1. +4
                4 September 2024 11: 59
                A full-fledged wheeled self-propelled gun with a 10-shot magazine??? Maybe for the next war. They won't make it in time for this one.

                Regrettably.
                If only to hide in the bushes and knead the enemy's front line from its own shallow rear at the first request of the infantry, this papelac will be enough. And its speed too.

                Okay, let's try to imagine.
                1. The operating range is less than 15 km. Therefore, this product must be brought to our own shallow rear. About 8-10 kilometers from the front line. Bring it, as I understand, on lowboys.
                2. These trawls need to be hidden somewhere and kept ready - otherwise how can the product/products be transferred from site to site?
                3. The crew is located 200-300 meters from the gun. That is, if the enemy opens counter-battery actions, then he is in the arrival zone and must dig himself some kind of trench. Okay, let's say.
                4. The speed of the product itself in the best case scenario is 200 m per minute. This will not help at all from the cassette cover. And not cassette...
                And yes, the whole performance takes place in the area of ​​action of enemy FPV drones.
                I'll note that I like the idea of ​​a robotic weapon.
                There is no current execution.
                1. -4
                  4 September 2024 12: 33
                  Now imagine the same thing for a towed weapon, near which there will be people at every stage.
                  By the way, about speed. Everyone says that 12 is not enough. How much do you need???
                  The original tachanka is just a tractor with a fairly powerful engine. A simple replacement of the gear pair will increase the speed. About one and a half times.
                  The crew is hidden. The operator is 500-400 meters away.
                  Even this cart will allow you to support the front with fire without risking the artillerymen.
                  And when the series will include not ersatz machines, but full-fledged examples that are not inferior to Western analogues, we will stop arguing and will be full of praise for the industry.
                  For now, we are happy with this.
                  1. +1
                    4 September 2024 16: 59
                    And you can also attach a D-30 to a cart with two horses, the speed will be like this product wassat
                    But seriously, is it really impossible to make an armored capsule instead of a KamAZ cabin with anti-mine protection like the American Hymars chassis and on this base make both the Smerch-G and the self-propelled guns with the same D-30 or better yet the Msta-B and in the future equip the rear units with such machines? How much longer can you do this nonsense at the expense of the people's money? If you have no brains, leave and make way for those who can do it, or do you definitely want to play until October 1917?
                    1. -1
                      4 September 2024 17: 24
                      You understand that this product is not "INSTEAD" of what the military industry produces and puts into service. But "IN ADDITION" to what is modern and not so modern is sent to the troops.
                      D 30 years 30 as not produced and according to characteristics it is somewhere in the middle between "not very" and "very not". And Clover does not take someone's place. Either it or nothing at all.
                      1. +2
                        4 September 2024 17: 35
                        It would be better to make a normal chassis for a self-propelled gun in a simple version by replacing the KamAZ cabin with an armored capsule with anti-mine protection for the cabin and install the same D-30 on this chassis. Such a self-propelled gun will be able to quickly move out, make a few shots, take off and escape from a retaliatory strike.
                        And what can your slow-moving vehicle do at such a speed? Do you understand that with a properly constructed counter-battery system, shells will start flying in three minutes after your first shot, and how many meters will you travel on this tractor if you shoot for a minute and then roll up for a minute?
                      2. 0
                        4 September 2024 17: 44
                        No. If you do something new, you need to put a modern barrel on the chassis. A 10-12 shot magazine/drum. And a very smart filling. Well, in short, it's called Malva.
                        Or Phlox.
                        And this is a substitute. And it will cost much less. A regular self-propelled gun, but without a crew.
                      3. -2
                        4 September 2024 19: 44
                        Quote: ramzay21
                        It would be better to make a normal chassis for a self-propelled gun in a simple version by replacing the KamAZ cabin with an armored capsule with anti-mine protection for the cabin and install the same D-30 on this chassis. Such a self-propelled gun will be able to quickly move out, make a few shots, take off and escape from a retaliatory strike.
                        ?
                        In the case that we are talking about caliber 122mm
                        I suggest ...
                        To take T-72 tank first issues
                        Replace and modify the tank turret to enable firing from barrel elevation angle as in a self-propelled gun, insert gun from D-30 into the tower and leave it at the same time Automatic loader - AZ with 22 shots.
                        It should work as planned armored self-propelled gun, with a reserve of shells in the AZ - 22 pieces, due to tank chassis we will get cross-country ability, speed and protection, who wants it ROBOT - insert an automatic (unmanned) control system that will allow the SPG to be controlled (driven and shot) at a distance of many kilometers - controlled not just by wire, but from a satellite (if there are NO such systems - develop and make them, otherwise there is no need to fuss with the development of SPGs).
                        hi
                      4. -1
                        13 September 2024 16: 42
                        You know, if this "miracle of technology" is produced and supplied to the troops at the expense of the charity of oligarchs, then perhaps it has the right to exist. But if, God forbid, they decide to produce it at the expense of the Ministry of Defense budget, with the occupation of the production capacities of the military-industrial complex for this, then this is already a crime that must be punished. As for wheeled self-propelled guns, in the Russian Federation the wheeled complexes "Bereg" in caliber 130 mm and "Malva" in caliber 152 mm have been created, tested and accepted into service. And for the fact that they are not in the troops, we should "bow low" to the gifted individuals standing at the helm of control.
                      5. 0
                        13 September 2024 18: 26
                        Are you not joking about the Coast now???
                        It doesn't matter at whose expense it will be done. This is a replacement for the usual towed D 30, which are extremely vulnerable and are used a lot.
                        The use of Clover will reduce the risks for the calculation of the gun. No more and no less.
                        This is already a lot.
                      6. 0
                        15 September 2024 10: 10
                        Judging by your comment, such concepts as expediency and primary necessity are completely unfamiliar to you. Today, our army needs so much that is really necessary that producing all these toys to the detriment of what is really necessary is a crime. As a simple example, yesterday I visited an exhibition of weapons captured in Ukraine and, you know, my attention was drawn to the Swedish BMP CV90, probably because there was a BMP-1 modernized by the Ukrainian military-industrial complex standing nearby. I walked around, looked at the damage, read the performance characteristics, listened to the stories of the soldiers about the circumstances of their destruction. And you know what - there is not a single through-penetration on the "skin" of the CV90, and this despite the fact that (according to the soldier's story) it was blown up by an anti-tank mine and was finished off by drones, and judging by the marks - they "pounded" it with all their might. I was also struck by the presence of optical-electronic sighting systems on literally everything. I will simply keep quiet about modern means of communication in our army. So, what do you think our army needs first and foremost, these dubious toys or normal material and technical supplies?
                      7. 0
                        15 September 2024 15: 21
                        That's exactly it. We don't need miracle Yudo wunder waffles. We need workhorses in large quantities.
                        And Clover, if polished to a reasonable state, could well become a workhorse.
                        Dig up the enemy's front line. And this is the top priority.

                        And your example with the enemy's equipment is an argument in my favor. Reasonably advanced equipment. Automated topographic referencing and guidance will allow hitting the target with the first shell.
                        4 or as the manufacturer promises 6 shells are more than enough for this.
                      8. 0
                        15 September 2024 16: 04
                        Sorry, but your problem is much more complex. You completely lack elementary logic.
                      9. 0
                        15 September 2024 21: 47
                        The problem is you. You prefer to dream about the impossible rather than solve problems that can be solved.
                      10. 0
                        16 September 2024 13: 24
                        Not at all, it's not me, it's you who are a dreamer, and one who doesn't recognize reality at all. If only because you're foaming at the mouth trying to prove the usefulness of something completely useless. And all because you simply don't want to think about fairly basic things. What's the advantage of this expensive toy? That it crawls into position at a snail's pace and can fire without a crew? And haven't you heard anything about counter-battery warfare? This "miracle of technology" will live on the battlefield until the third shot at most. Yes, the operator might survive, but what about the hardware? So, instead of making a fuss about new similar "unparalleled" miracles, maybe we should just give the army more high-precision artillery ammunition and finally establish serial production and supply to the "Coalition SV" troops?
                      11. 0
                        16 September 2024 13: 27
                        So the regular D 30 has a better chance of surviving? Together with the calculation?
                      12. 0
                        16 September 2024 15: 34
                        Do you really not understand or are you just pretending? I will try to explain with a historical example. During the Great Patriotic War, the USSR produced only T-34 tanks of different modifications, about 50 units. Do you know why? Because by the decision of the State Defense Committee, the directors of factories and design bureaus were prohibited, under threat of criminal liability, from making any changes to the design that could lead to a reduction in the number of vehicles produced. However, this did not affect the development of the tank in any way, and it developed throughout the war. This is what we should do now, give the troops what they need first and foremost, and then create various exotic things. And as for the chances of survival on the battlefield of any artillery system, it depends on its range and the number of barrels per 000 km of the front (density of fire), and not on the ability to "hit and run".
                      13. 0
                        16 September 2024 16: 46
                        Are you claiming that absolutely all manufacturers of the latest artillery systems are mistaken???
                        Everyone is betting on Bey-Run. Rapid deployment, work, leaving the position immediately after the ceasefire.
                        How long is it in ideal conditions until the return line??? Three minutes??? The whole world will focus on what you consider to be wrong.
                        Kind of weird
                        It's clear that someone here is a little overconfident.
                      14. 0
                        16 September 2024 18: 32
                        Come on, come on, who is betting on something like this, give me at least one model that was adopted for service and took part in real combat operations. Wheeled artillery systems do exist, but it is also an undeniable fact that they have not been decisive in any military conflict, neither in breaking through defenses, nor in repelling an attack.
                      15. 0
                        16 September 2024 19: 47
                        All other systems adopted for service in the last 20 years. Gusenechnve too. The same Msta. They are all designed for quick target destruction due to "smart" filling and for quick leaving of the position after shooting.
                        Before you start being smart, at least start to understand what you are going to be smart about.
                      16. 0
                        16 September 2024 19: 59
                        You are the one trying to be smart. I would recommend that you familiarize yourself with the practice of using Western analogues of our self-propelled guns in armed conflicts, at least in the Middle East. Nowhere and never were they rolled out to positions for rapid shooting and escape. And the ability of the self-propelled gun to move independently is primarily associated with the need to constantly move to provide fire support to their troops, and not to escape from positions.
                      17. 0
                        16 September 2024 20: 52
                        Middle East???
                        Can you remind me when the last time our Western "partners" in the Middle East were hit by counter-battery "response"?
                        In general, can you name a conflict other than the SVO when there were artillery duels????
                      18. 0
                        17 September 2024 08: 56
                        The article and its discussion show that the MoD has no understanding of what kind of war to produce artillery systems for and, accordingly, what kind of artillery systems should have what characteristics. They cannot formulate it.
                    2. 0
                      4 September 2024 17: 30
                      Quote: ramzay21
                      Is it really impossible to make an armored capsule instead of a KamAZ cabin with anti-mine protection?

                      Well, this has already been done. It's called Malva. Yes

                      But Malva is needed for shooting from relatively good roads. Like shoot and run. And Klever has a different tactical niche. It's for kneading shit at the front. Like the crew sits in a dugout, and this muskrat drives around prepared firing positions and shoots, returning to reload. Naturally, all this is covered by electronic warfare.
                      1. +2
                        4 September 2024 17: 43
                        Well, this has already been done. It's called Malva.

                        Malva is several pieces and very expensive. And I am talking about mass production from the finished D-30 and the finished KamAZ chassis, you just need to make an armored capsule and connect all this into one SPG with simple and inexpensive solutions.
                        Naturally, all this is covered by electronic warfare.

                        Electronic warfare will become useless with the advent of fiber-optic controlled drones, which already exist. They cannot be detected by anything, they can only be shot down physically.
                      2. +1
                        4 September 2024 17: 54
                        Quote: ramzay21
                        And I'm talking about mass production from the finished D-30 and the finished KamAZ chassis.

                        The finished chassis will have to be reinforced, since the load will increase due to the armor and the need to withstand the impact after a shot. Accordingly, the cost will also grow unpredictably. And the performance characteristics are worse than Malva.

                        But the main thing is that the tactical niche is different, not for roads. And against drones on fiber optics or with a controller that recognizes targets, perhaps they will invent automatic turrets with shotguns or even with remote detonation shells. Otherwise, any equipment on the front line will not survive. sad
                      3. 0
                        4 September 2024 19: 47
                        Do you really think that if you drive into Chigirya to hide somehow, your super-duper Kamaz with D 30 will be able to move faster than the caterpillar-powered Clover????
                        You, sir, are proposing an even greater ersatz. If you make something new and expensive, it should be a full-fledged weapon. Complex.
                      4. +2
                        4 September 2024 20: 43
                        The fiber optic tail is the weak point of such drones. And they will soon learn to catch them by that tail.
                      5. 0
                        13 September 2024 16: 44
                        This freak has no niche other than his sights on another round of cash grab.
                    3. 0
                      4 September 2024 18: 12
                      Why build something new? If they could do it in the automatic loading and aiming system of the D-30, let them put a similar one inside the nail, the crew in some trench a kilometer away controls this self-propelled gun by radio
                      1. +1
                        4 September 2024 19: 48
                        And how will your carnation ride?
                      2. -1
                        4 September 2024 20: 53
                        On the tracks that are included. Yandex makes ground drones quite successfully, and the tarantass from this article somehow rides. For Chernobyl, the IMR-2 robotic modification was made in a month and a half, it is probably possible to resurrect the technologies of the lost civilization
                      3. +1
                        4 September 2024 21: 50
                        For Chernobyl, the product was rare. And your RoboGvozdikas are needed in large quantities. There are a huge number of alterations. And who will do this????
                        And for what???
                        Thin armor???
                        What will it help with???
                      4. -1
                        4 September 2024 22: 06
                        And for what???
                        Thin armor???
                        What will it help with???
                        so that those who are now sitting in carnations and taking a lot of risks, do not take risks anymore
                        And who will do this????
                        Well, who will make these clovers? Or is this an analogue of GRAU and no one planned to produce it?
                      5. +1
                        4 September 2024 23: 02
                        Well, you compared completely overhauling Gvozdika and making this tractor. The labor intensity is different.
                        And who knows if they'll make the clover or not. Basically, it needs to change the gear pair after the engine to add speed. A couple more shells in the cassette. A factory grill with electronic warfare. And you can go into the field.
                        Just in time for the spring greenery.
                      6. -1
                        4 September 2024 23: 52
                        Well, you compared completely overhauling Gvozdika and making this tractor. The labor intensity is different.
                        Well, it's also unlikely to be easy to make a self-propelled D-30 from scratch. I'm thinking of attaching servos instead of the military mechanic and adding an automatic loader, throwing out the seats, about the same complexity. Unless of course this is a robot tractor bought on Aliexpress, I don't know - maybe the Chinese are already selling such a ready-made platform?
                      7. +1
                        5 September 2024 09: 17
                        So in Gvozdika the entire chassis needs to be switched to remote control. The gearbox needs to be changed to automatic.
                        And for what??? Cardboard armor?
                      8. 0
                        5 September 2024 14: 29
                        Why go through all the controls there if you can install a unit that can switch the mechanics and press the pedals?
                      9. +1
                        5 September 2024 17: 33
                        Robot Fedya who will change the gearbox?
                        Oh well.
                        Can he cope alone???
                        Maybe we should recruit a few of them there???
                        And they won't rebel later??
                        Fedya te???
                      10. -2
                        5 September 2024 18: 08
                        For 5 million rubles you can buy a robot android from China, like a pair of lancets. I think GRAU can easily start sticking their own tags on them and supply them to the troops for 50 million
                2. 2al
                  0
                  9 September 2024 10: 17
                  Of course, the use of such a self-propelled gun assumes being near a protected caponier, from which it jumps out at 300-500 m at the time of firing. Since the effective fire range in terms of hitting the D-30 is no more than 12 km, where 4 shells with adjustment can hit a single target with a spread of 20-30 m. In fact, this does not much exceed the capabilities of, for example, the T-55/62, noticeably inferior in protection and mobility.
      2. 0
        4 September 2024 18: 22
        this is at least something

        Is this the misunderstanding with which you intend to confront the future German classics in a couple of years?!...
        1. -2
          4 September 2024 19: 34
          No. This German classic will be opposed by Malva or even better Coalition.
          And this misunderstanding will drive the enemy across the greenery and plow over the dugouts.
    2. Maz
      0
      12 September 2024 09: 57
      According to our poverty and plunder and efforts. American experimental self-propelled gun already accurately shoots at 69 km. The project began to be restored in the USA following the events in Ukraine. Developments are underway for self-propelled guns with a firing range of 110 km and 150 km.
  2. +3
    4 September 2024 04: 22
    Modern? Maybe more powerful? Revenge and Genocide seem to be from the times of rubber galoshes,
  3. +9
    4 September 2024 04: 38
    In the absence of a coat of arms, should we write on a simple one?
    On the birdless and the ass - a nightingale?
    It's been rare for the last thirty years that news about weapons capable of fundamentally influencing the course of battles (combat clashes) comes from the military-industrial complex... They either position some crap, or present models, or develop concepts... They're going through the motions, as they say...
    This is all bad, as is the fact that during the war the Ministry of Defense still can’t bring itself to put on a military uniform... They should take an example from the real victors: the IVS, for example.
  4. +7
    4 September 2024 04: 48
    Judging by the ammunition, it was clearly “invented” for show or to embezzle the R&D budget.
    A group of such "inventors" should be sent to the front lines. Once they have the real depth of the D-30 and especially the shells for it, they will probably immediately figure out how to make a simple robot with manipulators for the usual loading, folding and unfolding of the gun.
    1. +1
      4 September 2024 06: 35
      So, since the robotic tracked chassis of the MTS-15 Clover complex will have a limited range and low speed of movement, this means that in any case, a lowboy will be required to transport it, it can also be equipped with a platform and hydraulic stops for shooting from wheels.
      Is the trawl also robotic? laughing So why bother then?
      I really don't like this hackneyed expression, but here it is clearly stole the budget!
  5. -3
    4 September 2024 05: 13
    Beautiful, powerful hardware! . . . And are the brains that control this hardware sufficiently protected from the enemy's impurities poured into their ears every day from central TV channels? . . . hi
  6. +4
    4 September 2024 05: 18
    A notable drink. I wonder how much this "miracle weapon" costs? It reminds me of how in Odessa during the war they made tanks out of tractors. And it was not because life was good. Have we come to this?
    1. +2
      4 September 2024 06: 16
      In Odessa during the war, tanks were made from tractors
      And in Ossetia in the late 80s, a truck was covered with steel sheets, a hail-fighting weapon was installed on it and it was named "General Rodionov" (in honor of the general who gave the order to disperse demonstrators in Tbilisi with sapper shovels). And nothing, it fired wink
  7. -1
    4 September 2024 05: 20
    The author is absolutely right about one thing - wheeled SPGs are really necessary. And this awkward little monster is just nonsense.
    1. +5
      4 September 2024 08: 32
      Wheeled self-propelled guns are really necessary

      On wheeled chassis, perhaps only on European roads...
    2. -1
      5 September 2024 20: 29
      If only the children of oligarchs and officials could be put at the controls of this self-propelled gun on the front lines, they would remember for a long time the mothers of the designers of this miracle. laughing
  8. +5
    4 September 2024 05: 47
    The production of the D-30 howitzer ceased in 1994. Therefore, designing something new based on old (not obsolete, but old) barrels is IAD (imitation of active activity) and a waste of money.
    An old pseudoscientific joke:
    My brain won't let me push this topic forward.
    The management does not allow pushing this issue back
    So we push her sideways.
  9. -2
    4 September 2024 06: 12
    "Clover" with 122mm howitzer D-30
    It must be said that the howitzer is so-so. Post-war development. And the speed of this miracle is not very good.
    1. -1
      4 September 2024 20: 08
      I must say that the howitzer is so-so.

      The howitzer still remains unrivaled in its class, even with old shells leaving behind the newfangled "Khosts" and "Floks" in terms of accuracy and range. Nothing better has been created in this caliber. So you shouldn't say that about it.
      1. 0
        12 September 2024 06: 49
        newfangled "Hostas" and "Phloxes"

        They have a modernized weapon from Nona. That is, a completely different niche. And there are almost none of them
  10. +3
    4 September 2024 06: 12
    It turns out to be a matryoshka, we put a cannon on a gusli, then we put all this on a trawl... and a trawl? The whole problem is that the firing range of the D30 is small, which means it is closer to the LBS. The speed of movement is low, it will be difficult to escape, the FPV will work quickly on it. The production costs are two orders of magnitude higher compared to the towed version. One plus, the crew is at a great distance from the gun and then only for a short period of time. Reloading, camouflage after firing. Slow, expensive, with low fire performance, low survivability device.
  11. -1
    4 September 2024 06: 55
    This is a stillborn freak! It should have wheels, a firing range like the coalition, at least a dozen shells. All NATO guns hit at 50 km and further, we need to counter them. The idea is necessary, but the execution is completely outdated.
    1. 0
      4 September 2024 08: 55
      So you wanted to say that a coalition is needed??
      Well, there's no arguing with that.
      1. -1
        4 September 2024 10: 40
        It's based on a normal, very mobile robot! And not all this
        1. 0
          4 September 2024 10: 43
          That's what I say. No one argues.
          Give me two. Coalitions. And there's no need to turn it off.
    2. -1
      4 September 2024 16: 47
      All NATO guns have a range of 50 km and further.

      What do you mean, they're hitting right behind the Urals laughing It's time to give up laughing
  12. 0
    4 September 2024 06: 57
    The D-30 was supposed to be behind the first and second lines of defense to suppress enemy infantry and knock out attacking enemy tanks. In fact, it is a devastating field gun with a circular firing sector. If it had been at Stalingrad and Kursk, the German tanks would have been burning like fires long before they reached our trenches.
    1. +2
      4 September 2024 18: 55
      The Red Army was armed with the M-30 howitzer, which was quite good for its time.
      If instead of it there was a D-30, then essentially little would have changed.
  13. +2
    4 September 2024 07: 11
    Why does the author so confidently state that the automatics will definitely break down? Not only that, he even makes a conclusion based on this. By the way, the robotic complex with remote control "pioneer", "topol-m", served for 20 years!!! If anything broke down there, it was due to the stupidity of the personnel fellow . The author knows nothing about military automatics, and apparently knows nothing about counter-battery warfare tactics either. They lived in the forest, prayed to the wheel lol
    1. -1
      4 September 2024 11: 05
      Quote: Leomobil
      By the way, the robotic complex with remote control "Pioneer", "Topol-M" served for 20 years!!!

      Going out to positions a maximum of a couple of times a month (while moving along the roads), and the rest of the time standing in equipped permanent deployment points - in covered hangars with regular scheduled maintenance and maintenance. Yes, the automation will work in such conditions.
      This is the same as the recent discussion about the possibility of using multi-barrel aircraft cannons in armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles - "but it works on the plane!".
  14. +6
    4 September 2024 08: 38
    In this particular form, it is a STILLBORN CHILD and an attempt to increase its operational maneuverability by transporting it on a trailer will only lead to the enemy destroying this "miracle" with one blow, along with the trailer and the tractor, as he recently did in the Kursk direction with our transported tanks. The author has apparently never personally loaded and unloaded such equipment from trailers, and simply does not know how much time it takes.
    What to do? Well, if you have already chosen a tractor chassis, then you need to abandon the outdated chassis, install a more modern and energy-intensive one, like the "Komatsu", the elements of which are already being produced in St. Petersburg for the Chelyabinsk tractors ChTZ and DST and, of course, change the transmission, introducing a new gear to increase the speed of movement, at least twice as much
  15. -2
    4 September 2024 08: 58
    If only it is possible to convert old D30 and install it on a KAMAZ or Ural chassis, all other movements in 122 mm caliber should be completed
    1. 0
      4 September 2024 09: 29
      And for anti-tank troops and paratroopers? This caliber should suit them in terms of weight, mobility and penetration.
      1. 0
        4 September 2024 11: 36
        How are things going with the landing? They landed a lot.
  16. -1
    4 September 2024 09: 01
    These tractors are needed on the second line in case of Achtung.
    When you really need to shoot, but you know that there will be backlash.
    It's better to complete the task and lose hardware 50/50 than to lose hardware and people.
    1. -3
      4 September 2024 09: 12
      Why should the iron get lost? It doesn't have to get lost at all. The tracked chassis is just right for changing positions. You've finished shooting and you can slowly move to a spare camouflaged site, even to a hangar or a barn.
      The main thing is that it will cost ten times less than a tank, and three times less than a classic self-propelled gun like the Gvozdika or Akatsiya.
      1. 0
        4 September 2024 10: 22
        That's why I wrote 50/50. If there is a turnover, then the drone will work without problems at such a speed. But in the worst case scenario, human lives will be saved.
      2. 0
        4 September 2024 11: 00
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        Once you've finished shooting, you can slowly move to a spare camouflaged site, even a hangar or a barn.

        It won't work slowly. The enemy will know the coordinates of the OP 5 minutes after opening fire. And how far will this "municipal SPG" crawl during this time? It has the speed of the artillery of a rifle division from the last war - the infantry will overtake it on foot.
        1. -5
          4 September 2024 11: 32
          The enemy already knows the coordinates of the OP or outpost, you don't have to bother, nothing new or unknown has been discovered. And you don't have to crawl far, it's enough to change your position within the OP or outpost.
          1. 0
            4 September 2024 11: 53
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            And there is no need to crawl far, it is enough to change position within the OP or outpost.

            Where to change? Move 100 m to the right or left?
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The area of ​​a stronghold or outpost is such that maneuvering an OP on them makes no sense - the entire outpost will be covered by a couple of salvos from a battery. Or are you suggesting setting up outposts the size of a battalion defense area? We don't have the personnel for that.
            1. -3
              4 September 2024 12: 04
              Within the outpost or OP, several firing positions are equipped for equipment and fire weapons. Didn't know?
              1. 0
                4 September 2024 16: 42
                Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                Within the outpost or OP, several firing positions are equipped for equipment and fire weapons. Didn't know?

                Quote: Alexey RA
                The area of ​​the stronghold or outpost is such that the maneuver of the OP on them makes no sense - the entire outpost will be covered by a couple of salvos from the battery.

                And the change of OP will happen especially well on parade roads at 10-12 km/h.
                1. -2
                  4 September 2024 16: 44
                  Do you think it's easier to roll the D-20 or MSTA-B by hand? The first weighs about 4 tons, the second about 7. The change of position there, in your opinion, is simply brilliant.
            2. 0
              4 September 2024 18: 25
              Where to change? Move 100 m to the right or left?
              It would be a good idea to go to a dugout. Which a robotic excavator should dig out unnoticed by the enemy
        2. 0
          4 September 2024 17: 32
          I disagree with you here. The regular D 30 will be even worse. If you really need to shoot, let this tractor shoot and try to crawl away, rather than cover the regular D 30 with its crew.
          By the way, the speed of this chassis is 15 tons. That means the engine is powerful. Just move the gear pair and the speed can be increased. 20-25 on rough terrain is enough to crawl away before the return flight arrives.
  17. 0
    4 September 2024 09: 09
    They are sawing up the budget well and senselessly! An expensive wonder weapon, and only for four shots? The Unified State Exam has made itself known!
    1. 0
      4 September 2024 16: 52
      Give us belt feed! Unitaries! laughing And after three - tracer! laughing
  18. IVZ
    +4
    4 September 2024 09: 20
    I couldn't find any information about the developer. Most likely, this is just a concept developed on its own initiative, i.e. at the developer's own expense. The chassis will certainly be different, but now they just took what was at hand or gave it away for free. That is, in its current form, there is no talk of any practical application. The purpose of the concept is to work out the main technical issues and find a customer-investor for the project to implement full-scale development.
    1. -1
      4 September 2024 10: 06
      Where will another chassis come from? They were looking for a chassis for the modernized ZU-23/30M1-4 anti-aircraft mount for several years. And a new version of the MTLB tractor with an automatic transmission has not appeared in thirty years.
      The gun is frankly weak with an ammunition complement of 4 shots. I would like to see something in the 152 mm caliber, that is, a barrel according to the PAT-S or PAT-B project. But, apparently, they do not exist either.
      What is the basis for the conclusion about the impossibility of practical use? Even in such a raw form, this is an extremely necessary installation. In the conditions of a real conflict, expensive equipment such as tanks or self-propelled guns cannot be kept at strongpoints and outposts. It can be destroyed by enemy long-range artillery. Towed artillery is also not an option, it cannot quickly change its position. A robotic howitzer on a tracked platform can just cover the need for artillery at outposts and strongpoints.
      That is, instead of classic outposts with tanks, armored personnel carriers and howitzers, outposts with such robotic installations may appear, which are several times cheaper and "braver". At the same time, it is not a pity to place them at a distance of 7-8 km from the border or the line of combat.
      1. -1
        4 September 2024 10: 58
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        That is, instead of classic outposts with tanks, armored personnel carriers and howitzers, outposts with robotic installations may appear, which are many times cheaper and “braver”.

        Why do outposts need the ability to change positions? The area of ​​a stronghold or outpost is such that maneuvering an OP on them makes no sense - the entire outpost will be covered by a couple of salvos from a battery. Or are you suggesting that outposts be set up the size of a battalion defense area? We don't have the manpower for that.
        It is easier to remove the module from the chassis and install it permanently. And transport it between outposts by lowboy.
      2. IVZ
        -1
        4 September 2024 10: 59
        On what basis was the conclusion made about the impossibility of practical use?
        And who made such a conclusion? I only assumed, and perhaps wrongly, that this is "MOST LIKELY" a concept, and concepts are not intended for practical use. As for changing positions. The time it takes to transfer a towed gun to the marching position is on average 1,5 minutes. Then the tractor, at a speed of up to 80 km / h, if the terrain allows, drags it further. That is, in 2 minutes, from the beginning of preparation for changing the position, about 500-600 m. This gun is transferred to the marching position, well, let's say in 0 minutes, but at a maximum speed of 12 km., this is 400 meters in 2 minutes, and in 3; 4; 5 minutes? Although if there is cover nearby, the question is certainly removed and still I consider the search or creation of a suitable base for the chassis relevant.
        1. 0
          4 September 2024 12: 09
          An automatic transmission for an infantry fighting vehicle or MTLB has been sought for twenty or even thirty years, but they can't find it. And you reason as if there is a choice of chassis from several ready-made ones or on the way. No, and most likely there won't be one in the next few years.
          Only for the BMP-3 was something offered with automatics, but for export.
          1. IVZ
            -1
            4 September 2024 13: 07
            And you reason as if there is a choice of chassis from several ready-made or on the way. No, and most likely there will not be in the next few years.
            You have an interesting way of ascribing to your opponent your own and unfortunately incorrect perception of his words: "a conclusion has been made", "you reason as if there is a choice". You can search for something in different ways, including in such a way as not to find it. But automatic transmissions have been known for a very long time, we equipped BelAZ trucks, buses, executive cars with them. And I do not believe that "we can't", rather someone does not want to bother, which does not reduce the relevance of the issue.
            1. -2
              4 September 2024 13: 11
              Belaz, a bus or a passenger car are tracked chassis? I am just drawing attention to the real state of affairs. I repeat, there is not a single tracked military platform with an automatic transmission that would be suitable for robotization.
        2. 0
          4 September 2024 17: 37
          Like 80 km/h??? On rough terrain?
          1. IVZ
            +1
            4 September 2024 18: 35
            Like 80 km/h??? On rough terrain?
            Judging by the cries to do as in the West and transfer everything to wheeled travel, no one is going to fight on rough terrain. But seriously, towing over rough terrain is not envisaged. On medium-worn dirt roads - 25-40 km/h. 80-90 on the highway.
            1. +1
              4 September 2024 19: 37
              Wooo. From position D 30 they will drag away a little faster than Clover moves.
      3. 0
        4 September 2024 16: 59
        . in the conditions of a real conflict, expensive equipment such as tanks or self-propelled guns cannot be kept at strong points and outposts. They can be destroyed by enemy long-range artillery

        Well then don't keep infantry and tanks, they can be especially effective in destroying enemy artillery. It will be an ideal stronghold - neither artillery, nor infantry, enemy drones howl piteously and fall from exhaustion of the Akums without finding targets. laughing
    2. 0
      4 September 2024 16: 54
      They developed it well, but they didn’t ask the artillerymen: What do they really need!?
    3. -1
      4 September 2024 18: 32
      Couldn't find any information about the developer.

      https://aftershock.news/?q=node/1410483
      Here are some close-up photos. The developer is none other than the Main Missile and Artillery Directorate. So apparently someone there doesn't know what useful to do.
      1. IVZ
        0
        4 September 2024 18: 39
        GRAU always acted as the Customer of developments. Something new.
        1. -1
          4 September 2024 18: 52
          I don't really understand it myself. There is also plant number 9, which manufactures and services artillery. But since GRAU officially represents it, it means that they probably see the needs of Russian artillery this way. To put it mildly, they are out of touch with reality. Maybe this has been in development for 10 years and these are their results of work. I don't even know what is worse.
          1. IVZ
            -1
            4 September 2024 19: 03
            Knowing the state of affairs in the development of new products in the rifle industry, I can assume that, having despaired of getting what they were looking for from traditional developers, GRAU organized its own design bureau for the development of promising projects.
            1. -1
              4 September 2024 20: 58
              Well, it turned out somehow so-so. Most likely, there was a Rogozin there, who had a robot "marker", which disappeared somewhere since the beginning of the SVO
  19. +1
    4 September 2024 09: 46
    Low speed! 12 km/h is 200 meters per minute, off-road, not every soldier in armor can run even a kilometer at such a speed. That is, from a capanier and a camouflaged position on a field 1 km away. You can arrive on alarm in 5 minutes, shoot, and in five minutes you are already hidden.
    1. -1
      4 September 2024 10: 31
      12 km/h seems to be the maximum. And the cruising speed is somewhere around 5 km/h. But this is enough to change the position.
  20. +1
    4 September 2024 10: 13
    In principle, the idea is not bad, if we also use the idea of ​​the pre-war wheeled-tracked tank in the USSR. It needs to go on tracks in the mud, it needs to go on wheels on the highway. Of course, there should be a cabin for the crew to move to the rear and go to the front. Then the crew leaves the SPG and controls it from a safe distance. soldier
    1. 0
      4 September 2024 10: 28
      The ability to fire direct fire is also needed. This is a particularly important feature in defense or in those rare cases when you want to use the system in urban combat.
      Well, yes, and a cabin is also needed, you won't always have your own transport for the calculation. Standing in the rain on an open platform is somehow not very good.
  21. +6
    4 September 2024 10: 52
    The maximum firing range reaches 15,3 kilometers, and when firing active-reactive projectiles up to 22 kilometers. The load capacity of the robotic chassis is 15 tons, the maximum speed of movement is up to 12 kilometers per hour with a cruising range of up to 120 kilometers.

    To summarize: the army is offered a ersatz self-propelled gun with a D-30 on a 15-ton chassis with a 312 hp diesel engine and a speed of 12 km/h.
    Just for comparison: the 2S1 SPG, considered long ago and hopelessly outdated, with the same D-30 (in the turret version) had a full weight of 15,7 tons, a 300 hp engine and a speed of 60 km/h. Oh yeah, it also swam.
    In general, hello to the SU-2 in a new way.
    1. +1
      4 September 2024 22: 18
      Here one forum idiot posted pictures of shotguns on ducks, and shotguns are now the most effective means of shooting down drones.
      Are you from the same company?
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. 0
    4 September 2024 11: 06
    "Great idea." The howitzer rolls into position, fires three sighting shots, then one to hit the target, and rolls away to reload. Then the process repeats. It will roll like this all day.
  24. 0
    4 September 2024 11: 50
    Not on the "forum" (and not in the chat wassat ) his place.
    They should have tested it at the front a long time ago (the main thing is not to give it to the enemy). Well, that's if there is a desire for something more than a pretty report.
  25. 0
    4 September 2024 13: 32
    A great step in the right direction, but too cumbersome, expensive and complicated.
    The creators need to be given a bonus and new technical specifications.
    .
    Trailer guns should be robotized first of all, and their weight and price will be practically indistinguishable from conventional guns. If you do not equip such a howitzer with armor and without ammunition.
    Armor may make sense, but it is better to carry ammunition separately, in a special loading vehicle.
    Given the absence of a number of requirements, an unmanned howitzer can be cheaper than a regular one.
    1. 0
      4 September 2024 17: 04
      It is necessary to robotize (try) an existing SPG or tank, for example Gvozdika or T-72. There is work for a decade there. And only with successful robotization develop your own platform.
  26. +1
    4 September 2024 14: 44
    In general, it is simply a modern version of "self-propelled guns" like SD-44 or Sprut-B, only with a more cross-country chassis and some automation. The biggest drawback is low speed. But otherwise, it is probably better than something like the old "Nona-S", taken out of storage.
  27. 0
    4 September 2024 16: 25
    It's just that apparently it was created before the modern drone realities of 2022. They revised their views on many things. This little animal was probably unlucky...
  28. 0
    4 September 2024 18: 31
    For some reason, no one, discussing this concept, noted that the gunner is a living person. He fired, the automatics loaded the gun, the gunner on the tractor makes adjustments. Second shot, the automatics loaded the gun again, the gunner turns... And the return fire flies...
  29. -3
    4 September 2024 18: 51
    I do not pretend to be unambiguous, but looking at this remotely controlled installation, I got the impression that it is not a matter of artillery - the issues are primarily in topographic referencing, drives for feeding mechanisms, in a multitude of sensors and drives for the normal functioning of the chassis and artillery system, and you can't call the D-30 promising. In my subjective opinion, a new multi-purpose CHASSIS is being promoted. In the case of the howitzer, when manufacturing a prototype to demonstrate the capabilities of the chassis, it was possible to find - write out an order, a decommissioned and / or D-30 howitzer, for which a prototype was made, having worked out a lot of technical design and production issues, proving the operability and adaptability of the CHASSIS.
  30. -1
    4 September 2024 20: 53
    And something "fresher", "old lady" D-30, nothing was found for MTS-15 "Clover"? After all, even according to the new Pension legislation, this "person" should have been on "well-deserved rest" for 4 years already... After all, this year, she "hit" 64 years old... True, "plastic surgery", especially domestic, works wonders... Look at our Alla Borisovna... Just a "young cucumber from the garden"... Perhaps, our D-30 also fell into the hands of a master...
  31. 0
    4 September 2024 23: 19
    Well... the first pancake, as expected, turned out to be a flop.
    A tractor chassis + a barrel that works at 15 km, when enemy UAVs work at 20-30, it's a defenseless target. Not only is 12 km a laughing matter, but you can't even camouflage the tracks even in summer.
    1. 0
      5 September 2024 20: 20
      There are not only chickens there, but also pigeons will laugh :)
      At such a speed, there is no need to even take a lead point. Perhaps as bait for counter-battery combat.
  32. 0
    5 September 2024 01: 39
    As far as I understand, there are no guided missiles in the range. Which means it's a stillborn child. A blank shot.
    It was necessary to install a 152 mm barrel right away.
  33. 0
    5 September 2024 07: 51
    Given the experience of the SVO, we must proceed from the following: repairability. This miracle in the field cannot be repaired. Second, price quality. Clear bias in price. Third - 4 shells, that's nothing. Fourth, we can't waste brains and load the industry with products of dubious importance.
  34. 0
    5 September 2024 14: 47
    It would be better if Gvozdika was modernized with remote control, automatic transmission and electronics. At least it has been mastered in production for the basic hardware...
  35. 0
    5 September 2024 20: 17
    Looks more like a ZIS-30 with a 57 mm ZiS-2 cannon, only here there is a howitzer instead of a cannon. I can understand that in 1941 there was a shortage of tanks and self-propelled guns, but this is not 1941. Wouldn't it have been easier to mount a 122 mm howitzer with 10 shells on a Kamaz chassis? Seriously, 12 km per hour is not funny.
  36. +1
    5 September 2024 21: 07
    My deep couch opinion, expressed several years ago, remains the same.
    We take a crane installation based on an extended Ural.
    We remove the crane itself, leaving the outriggers.
    We install the body and attach ALL Soviet artillery systems to it, except for the Msta B and Giatsint B.
    This is the first step.
    Which will make all the towed artillery more mobile. Arrived, lowered the outriggers, fired 2-4 shells, raised the outriggers and left.

    The second step.
    We install a double armored cabin, we install a modern fire control system. The entire crew is on the march in armor and comfort.

    The third step.
    development of an art system with automatic shooting. the crew is armored, comfortable and does not leave the cabin.

    We leave the towed Msta and Giatsint in service with the cover divisions, and send the rest for repairs and then for high-quality, competent storage in case of a major war.
    And according to the article.
    This tractor is stupid. Now if the speed was 50 km/h and the payment was made in a couple of km, then maybe it would work)
  37. 0
    7 September 2024 22: 56
    It is surprising who signed the technical specifications for such a piece of work. Everyone knows the best representatives of wheeled SPGs, what their advantages and strengths are. Why these "budget developments" without prospects for mass production and adoption into service. Simulation of vigorous activity, but in fact the development of a qualitatively new SPG is slowed down, these "pieces of work" take away funding.
  38. 0
    9 September 2024 14: 09
    Based on the above, it can be assumed that the MTS-15 "Clover" complex should include an important element - a wheeled trailer capable of quickly transporting a robotic tracked chassis with a 122-mm howitzer D-30. In addition to the robotic tracked chassis itself with a 122-mm howitzer D-30, the trailer should accommodate ammunition, as well as a compartment with a crew - operators of the robotic howitzer.


    or
    two autonomous robotic wheeled mobilizers (P.T.U.) - TZM (for example, like a forklift with the function of aromatic docking/undocking and hanging of a tracked BM and rigid fixation of the "forks" / coupling-hanging device
    и
    separate control machine
  39. 0
    9 September 2024 14: 33
    Quote: Ryazanets87
    It would be better to develop a full-fledged wheeled self-propelled gun with a 10-round shell cassette. Instead of creating such "miracles".
    By the way, for Clover we will also need tractor-trailers. Or ride on tracks with a maximum speed of 12 km/h


    It seems you are all arguing about what has the following solution (very rude and sarcastic):

    1. We use a jigsaw to cut out the artillery gun itself with automatic transmission, drives, and other automation and robotization systems from the provided tracked chassis (more or less useless) (i.e. we make a remotely controlled Weapon Station Module)
    2. We are developing a set of fasteners for the Module to different chassis)
    3. We take the available arsenal of towed artillery guns, rivet a lot of Modules with their help and mount the Modules on a variety of available chassis.
  40. 0
    9 September 2024 14: 35
    Quote: garri-lin
    Now imagine the same thing for a towed weapon, near which there will be people at every stage.
    By the way, about speed. Everyone says that 12 is not enough. How much do you need???
    The original tachanka is just a tractor with a fairly powerful engine. A simple replacement of the gear pair will increase the speed. About one and a half times.
    The crew is hidden. The operator is 500-400 meters away.
    Even this cart will allow you to support the front with fire without risking the artillerymen.



    It seems you are all arguing about what has the following solution (very rude and sarcastic):

    1. We use a jigsaw to cut out the artillery gun itself with automatic transmission, drives, and other automation and robotization systems from the provided tracked chassis (more or less useless) (i.e. we make a remotely controlled Weapon Station Module)
    2. We are developing a set of fasteners for the Module to different chassis)
    3. We take the available arsenal of towed artillery guns, rivet a lot of Modules with their help and mount the Modules on a variety of available chassis.
  41. 0
    9 September 2024 14: 41
    Quote: ramzay21
    And you can also attach a D-30 to a cart with two horses, the speed will be like this product
    But seriously, is it really impossible to make an armored capsule instead of a KamAZ cabin with anti-mine protection like the American Hymars chassis and on this base make both the Smerch-G and the self-propelled guns with the same D-30 or better yet the Msta-B and in the future equip the rear units with such machines? How much longer can you do this nonsense at the expense of the people's money? If you have no brains, leave and make way for those who can do it, or do you definitely want to play until October 1917?



    It seems you are all arguing about what has the following solution (very rude and sarcastic):

    1. We use a jigsaw to cut out the artillery gun itself with automatic transmission, drives, and other automation and robotization systems from the provided tracked chassis (more or less useless) (i.e. we make a remotely controlled Weapon Station Module).
    2. We are developing a set of fasteners for the Module to different chassis).
    3. We take the available arsenal of towed artillery guns, rivet a lot of Modules with their help and mount the Modules on a variety of available chassis.

    They are trying to avoid a 1917 reunion by refusing mass conscription and mass distribution of weapons to the population (but they will most likely end up playing out).

    another option = defeat in the already started WW3 in its hot phase.

    The third and fourth (maybe the fifth) options are the most acceptable from the point of view of casualties among the population, but are hardly feasible.
  42. 0
    9 September 2024 14: 45
    Quote: cat Rusich
    In the case that we are talking about the 122mm caliber
    I suggest ...
    Take the first edition T-72 tank
    Replace and modify the tank turret to allow firing at an elevation angle similar to that of a self-propelled gun, insert a D-30 gun into the turret, and at the same time leave the automatic loader - an automatic loader with 22 rounds.
    The idea is to get an armored self-propelled gun, with a reserve of shells in the AZ - 22 pieces, due to the tank chassis we will get cross-country ability, speed and protection, who wants a ROBOT - insert an automatic (unmanned) control system that will allow you to control the self-propelled gun (drive and shoot) at a distance of many kilometers - control not just by wire, but from a satellite (if there are NO such systems - develop and make, otherwise there is no need to fuss with the development of self-propelled guns).


    It seems you are all arguing about what has the following solution (very rude and sarcastic):

    1. We use a jigsaw to cut out the artillery gun itself with automatic transmission, drives, and other automation and robotization systems from the provided tracked chassis (more or less useless) (i.e. we make a remotely controlled Weapon Station Module)
    2. We are developing a set of fasteners for the Module to different chassis)
    3. We take the available arsenal of towed artillery guns, rivet a lot of Modules with their help and mount the Modules on a variety of available chassis.
  43. 0
    9 September 2024 15: 06
    Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
    Let me repeat, there is not a single tracked military platform with an automatic transmission that would be suitable for robotization.



    BMP3 seems to have had successful attempts to automate the movement of the chassis.